Draft Special Immigration Appeals Commission (Procedure) (Amendment) Rules 2018
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Lucy Frazer)
I beg to move,
That the Committee has considered the draft Special Immigration Appeals Commission (Procedure) (Amendment) Rules 2018.
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Davies. I hope not to detain the Committee long, as this draft statutory instrument concerns a procedural issue of the Special Immigration Appeals Commission, although it is important.
I will start by explaining what the Special Immigration Appeals Commission is. More generally known as SIAC, it is a specialist tribunal that deals with challenges to immigration and asylum decisions made by the Home Office. The decisions that come before it concern cases where an immigration decision is made—for example, detention or deportation—for reasons of national security or international relations, or cases where a decision is made relying on evidence that it would not be in the public interest to disclose. SIAC is different from other immigration tribunals, in that it has the ability to operate the closed material procedure, which allows sensitive material the Home Secretary intends to use in his response to the appeal to be protected.
There are three matters before us today in relation to SIAC’s procedures: changes to bail conditions, changes to appeals and changes to the time limit. The changes are designed to bring SIAC proceedings in line with other similar types of hearing in other tribunals.
The first change relates to bail. This draft statutory instrument is designed to bring the bail conditions imposed by SIAC in line with schedule 10 to the Immigration Act 2016. That legislation simplified the previous framework with a single power of immigration bail. That allows for illegal migrants, including foreign national offenders, who are awaiting removal to be released subject to conditions if detention is not appropriate. That legislation simplified the law. For example, financial conditions were also introduced to replace recognisances, which are undertakings to pay a sum of money in the event that bail conditions are breached. At its simplest, it was a change to the language, making it more comprehensible. “Recognisances” is simply an outdated term. There were other changes to simplify the bail framework, and we are bringing SIAC in line with those.
The draft statutory instrument seeks to allow cases to be leapfrogged from SIAC to the Supreme Court. That will bring SIAC in line with other courts and tribunals where leapfrogging is possible. For example, leapfrogging is already possible for appeals in the upper tribunal and the Employment Appeal Tribunal. There are safeguards, because it can be done only in certain circumstances. The appellant must demonstrate that their appeal raises a point of law of general public importance that will ultimately end up in the Supreme Court.
The final change brought about by the draft statutory instrument is an amendment to increase the time limit for making an application for permission to appeal, which will bring SIAC in line with time limits in the High Court.
To conclude, the draft statutory instrument makes technical but necessary changes to the procedures used by SIAC to ensure they are consistent with measures already set out in primary legislation, namely the Immigration Act 2016 and the Criminal Justice and Courts Act 2015. We have also taken the opportunity to make time limits for permission to appeal consistent with those in the High Court. I therefore commend the draft statutory instrument to the Committee.
Lucy Frazer
I am grateful for the important points raised by Opposition Members. I can confirm to the hon. Member for Ashfield that we have no intention to extend the SIAC position that she outlined in her first question. We do not intend to bring forward any further issues in relation to SIAC. The Tribunal Procedure Committee has already updated the rules for the immigration tribunal. It is difficult to say how many cases will be affected, but we think the number will be very few.
On the points raised by the hon. Member for Glasgow North on behalf of the Scottish National party, we are not increasing any hostile environment in relation to immigration. The measures are intended to ensure that we have a streamlined process, and to improve the position for those who want to appeal and the conditions for those on bail. We are ensuring that the bail conditions are no longer as confusing as they were. They were simplified in the Immigration Act 2016 and are now simpler to understand for everyone.
On the issue of leapfrogging to the Supreme Court, it is in the interests of both the Home Office and the appellant that decisions are made swiftly and that, when required, rights are determined through a process. Where there will be an appeal to the Supreme Court in any event, there are advantages in that case going straight to the Supreme Court, rather than through a lengthy procedure. I hope that I have satisfied hon. Members that this is an important, necessary streamlining of the procedure.
Question put.
Criminal Legal Aid
Lucy Frazer Excerpts(6 years, 6 months ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Lucy Frazer)
I congratulate the hon. Member for Leeds East (Richard Burgon) on securing this debate, which relates to the value of the independent Bar. It is therefore important for me, as a former barrister: I understand very clearly the role that advocates play in justice. The work done by the criminal Bar, day in, day out, up and down the country, is a fundamental part of our justice system. It is criminal barristers, criminal advocates, who ensure that people, often at the most desperate time of their lives, get the opportunity to have their points put coherently and effectively, when their futures are on the line, ensuring justice. I start by acknowledging and thanking criminal barristers for the hard work that they do.
The Lord Chancellor and I have heard many concerns about the wider justice system in the short four months since we took office. We take those concerns very seriously and we are committed to ensuring that there is an efficient and effective support for those who go through our court system. We want people to have every confidence in every part of their justice system. We want a system that supports victims and ensures a smooth and efficient process for litigants, and a legal profession that is enticing at every level for those who want to work within it.
Those are all important points, but the hon. Member for Leeds East has prayed against a statutory instrument. In the interests of advocates affected by that instrument, we should now focus on the issues that it raises. It is appropriate to start with four clear facts. First, this scheme was put together in close co-operation with the Bar leadership. Secondly, the scheme does not bring in a cut; at the very least, it is cost neutral, but it is more likely to give rise to an increase in expenditure, given that built into the calculations is a £9 million risk of such an increase. Thirdly, the scheme is more advantageous to the Bar overall than the one it replaces, particularly for those at the junior end. Fourthly, a clear commitment was given at the time the scheme came in that the Government would review it in 18 to 24 months. If, in the course of that review, legitimate concerns are raised about the system and a good case is made for investment, we will look at those proposals.
Sandy Martin
I thank the Minister. If she believes that her Government’s changes to legal aid have not been damaging to the profession, will she explain why there is not one single criminal law solicitor aged under 35 in Suffolk—or indeed in Norfolk, Cornwall or Worcestershire?
Lucy Frazer
Like the hon. Member for Leeds East, the hon. Gentleman raises a broad point about the justice system which I will come on to. On his specific point, it is of course important to have duty solicitors across the country doing legal aid. The Legal Aid Agency regularly reviews the geographical spread of the profession.
This is a debate about a statutory instrument and it is very important, for the advocates affected by it, that we focus on it. I would now like to expand on the four points I made.
Sir Oliver Heald
I think everyone would acknowledge that to go out and do the job of a criminal barrister is incredibly demanding, and that the profession faces challenges of various sorts. On the negotiations on the advocates’ graduated fee scheme, great efforts were made to involve the Bar at every stage. The Legal Aid Agency put a huge amount of work into the talks, as did the Ministry of Justice. The intention was to find a better way of paying barristers, not to do anyone down. Does the Minister agree that the response to the consultation document, which was so positive, seems to have evaporated for some reason?
Lucy Frazer
My right hon. and learned Friend, who was a Minister at an early stage in this process, makes a very important point. The scheme we are debating today came about because both the Bar and the Government accepted that the old scheme was outdated. Advocates told us that it did not reflect the amount of time and effort they put into their cases. For example, under the old scheme there were no separate fees for the second day of a trial and there were no fees for a sentence hearing. The new scheme is the result of a two-year exercise involving the leadership of the Bar—the Bar Council—the Criminal Bar Association and the circuit leaders. When the scheme was put forward in a consultation in 2017 it was widely welcomed by those organisations.
Maggie Throup (Erewash) (Con)
I am not a lawyer, so it may be that I am looking at this issue in a very simplistic way. It seems that my hon. and learned Friend is saying that the professionals said that the old regime was broken, yet the Opposition seem to be arguing that they want to go back to that old regime. Can my hon. and learned Friend enlighten me on why the Opposition are opposing modernising the system?
Lucy Frazer
My hon. Friend makes an extremely important point, which is at the very heart of this debate. The old system is not supported by the Bar. It did not want that system. The new scheme is an improvement, so the answer to my hon. Friend’s question is that the Labour party is simply playing politics with an honourable and important profession.
Mr Dominic Grieve (Beaconsfield) (Con)
As the Minister knows, there is a continuing funding crisis at the Bar. The reality is that at some point the Government are going to have to face up to the very great difficulties facing the justice system. That is not the fault of my right hon. Friend the Lord Chancellor; it is the situation he inherited. I have to say that I am in complete sympathy with the stance that my hon. and learned Friend is taking this evening. The scheme was wanted by the Bar and it is clearly an improvement on the previous system. Granted there are very great difficulties with funds, but it seems entirely reasonable for the Government to proceed with it.
Lucy Frazer
I thank my right hon. and learned Friend for his intervention and recognition that this scheme was wanted. I hope I have conveyed that the Lord Chancellor and I recognise that where there are difficulties in the criminal justice system we will seek to ensure that we have the best possible criminal justice system and legal system. The scheme, which we are voting on today, is the right scheme going forward. The proposal that it should be revoked and annulled is disadvantageous to the Bar and is simply politics.
Ian C. Lucas
Why then does the Minister think the barristers are taking action?
Lucy Frazer
The hon. Gentleman will have to ask the barristers why they are taking action, because the new scheme is more favourable.
The consultation was broadly welcomed by the organisations I mentioned earlier. I would like to provide just one quote among many. When the consultation was put forward in 2017, the then chair of the Bar Council said:
“The suggested scheme is a fairer way of rewarding advocates for their work”,
and that it is a
“a positive example of the Ministry of Justice participating in constructive dialogue with the profession”.
As with any consultation, suggestions were made to improve the scheme. It was said, for example, that it was not right that the initial scheme proposed was to be cost-neutral as against 2014-15. Concerns were also raised that it may have an adverse impact on junior advocates. The Ministry of Justice listened to those concerns and increased the amount in the scheme in line with the costs at the time, which increased the funding by £9 million. This allowed it to improve the scheme for junior advocates. The MOJ also assesses that the scheme will cost significantly more—approximately £9 million more—than anticipated.
The new scheme in this statutory instrument is better than the one it replaces. With this motion, which calls for the new scheme to be revoked, the hon. Member for Leeds East is disadvantaging those he professes to support. He says that it is a threat to our justice system, but the motion is playing politics. It puts party politics above supporting the right outcome. With the motion, the Labour party and those who intend to join them today are using the Bar and justice as a political tool for their own ends.
Andy Slaughter
Minister, that is a silly thing to say, because the motion reflects the disquiet that has been expressed by the Bar. The hon. and learned Lady does not have the curiosity to ask barristers why they are unhappy; perhaps one reason is that the scheme was an alternative to a further 8.5% cut, which would have caused mayhem in the criminal courts. It is just robbing Peter to pay Paul. Why does she not go back and ask the Bar who the losers are now, what the problems are and how they could be reformed, and why does she not take this away and look at it again?
Lucy Frazer
I am sorry if I misrepresented the position earlier. I have spoken regularly to a number of organisations that represent the leadership of the Bar. Over the last week, my Department has gone to chambers up and down this country. We have talked to them to understand their concerns about the scheme and to try to understand what position they prefer. We are extremely engaged in talking. The point I am making is that the new scheme is a better one. It was supported by the circuit leaders, the Criminal Bar Association, the Bar Council and the Young Barristers’ Committee, and about 15 press releases all support that position.
Mr Iain Duncan Smith (Chingford and Woodford Green) (Con)
I am very pleased to see my hon. and learned Friend in her place, with her knowledge and background. I will, of course, support the Government tonight, because I agree that this motion is playing politics with an issue, but I have a concern, which I have raised with her before. Following on from the comments of my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Beaconsfield (Mr Grieve), I hope that after this the Government will address one of the problems that they face with the junior Bar, particularly here in London. I know, because my son is one of them, and he would tell us that those we want to encourage to come to the Bar, who would diversify the Bar, cannot afford to do so. This is a big crisis for us, otherwise we will end up yet again with a narrow Bar. I wonder whether the Minister might urge her colleagues and hon. Friends to think about that, because it is those who will come through to be the judges of the future.
Lucy Frazer
My right hon. Friend makes a really important point about recruitment at the Bar. The Ministry of Justice is of course concerned about this issue, but it is not just a problem for the MOJ. When I went to the Bar, Bar fees for the course were £5,000, and they are now £15,000. Asking people to pay that sort of money is a barrier to access when the chances of their getting a pupillage and a tenancy are limited.
I will highlight three points to show why asking to revoke the scheme, as the shadow Secretary of State is asking, disadvantages the Bar. First, he is saying by doing so that he does not want the additional funds that the new scheme is likely to produce, as against the old scheme. Secondly, he is asking junior barristers to go to sentence and other hearings for no fees. Thirdly, he is asking to retain a scheme that calculates fees on the basis of page count, which is wholly outdated.
As I suggested, it was right to focus on the statutory instrument, but it would be wrong not to correct some of the many inaccuracies and misrepresentations in the hon. Gentleman’s speech, which focused on broader issues. He made several comments about disclosure without even mentioning either that the Attorney General’s review is due to report this summer or the national disclosure improvement announced by the CPS and the National Police Chiefs Council on 26 January. He talked about recruitment and failed to mention my points about fees. He said that recruitment was falling—there is anecdotal evidence for that—but failed to mention that the number of pupillages at the Bar went up in 2016-17 to its highest level since 2013. Very importantly, it is good to note that there were more women than men in 2016-17. In fact, the total number of barristers at the Bar now in practice stands at 16,435 and is incrementally increasing year on year.
The hon. Gentleman sought very quickly to broaden out the debate by talking about cuts, but he failed to identify why the coalition Government had to make the cuts they did across the board after 2010. It was because the Labour Government overspent and increased our debt and deficit. A few weeks ago, I went to a school in my constituency to explain how Governments spend their money. I identified the different Departments of State, and we looked at the proportion of spending for each. If interest was a Department of State, it would be our fourth-biggest in terms of expenditure, and that is because of the unreasonable and irresponsible decisions taken when Labour was in office.
The hon. Gentleman also talked about court closures. When 41% of courts and tribunals used less than half their available hearing capacity in 2016-17, it would be wrong not to look at our court estate. All the money from the sales is reinvested into the court estate, into our court buildings and court structure, and into technology, and that is alongside our billion-pound reform of the court process. I know that he is in favour of strikes of any kind, whether they are legal or illegal and whether or not they disadvantage ordinary members of society. I know that he favours disruption, demonstration and discontent over careful, constructive and collaborative processes, but the Conservative party believes in justice and that those who need representation should be entitled to it. We will continue to work with the profession to help them to protect the rule of law and the vulnerable people who come through our courts.
Several hon. Members rose—
Access Rights to Grandparents
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Lucy Frazer)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Christopher. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Worcestershire (Nigel Huddleston) on securing the debate and continuing to highlight this really important issue.
Grandparents play a significant role in family life. There is something special about the bond between a grandparent and a grandchild. The loving relationship that is formed often enriches family life. Grandparents provide stability when it is needed. They can give a sense of history and show how important it is to belong to a family. They can give familial support when it is needed, such as when it is difficult for more immediate family members to be called upon. My grandparents—in particular my grandmother—taught me many things. She passed on her values.
I, too, recognise the work of Marc and Jane Jackson from the Bristol Grandparents Support Group and of Dame Esther Rantzen. As my hon. Friend mentioned, I had the opportunity to listen to their points on this issue at a meeting he arranged with my predecessor when I was Parliamentary Private Secretary to the former Justice Secretary.
Hon. Members have made important and powerful points during the debate, and many have written to me about this subject. My hon. Friend the Member for Charnwood (Edward Argar) pointed out that grandparents often support grandchildren when there is family breakdown. The hon. Member for Stroud (Dr Drew) said that time is not a healer. In his impassioned speech, the hon. Member for Bristol North West (Darren Jones) described the grief of his constituent, whom I met, and the work that that family has done to support so many other people. The hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) reminded us of the precious moments that he has had as a grandparent and that grandparents can have with their grandchildren.
My hon. Friends the Members for Milton Keynes South (Iain Stewart) and for Northampton South (Andrew Lewer) mentioned the great work that has been done by a support group in their constituencies. My hon. Friends the Members for Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk (John Lamont) and for Aberdeen South (Ross Thomson) and the hon. Member for Glasgow East (David Linden) reminded us that other jurisdictions are grappling with this important issue. My hon. Friend the Member for Hendon (Dr Offord) reminded us that the law in France has already moved on.
My hon. Friend the Member for Mid Worcestershire told us some terrible stories about the effect on grandparents of an inability to see their grandchildren. He quoted grandparents and grandchildren directly, not only underlining how important the issue is but giving them a powerful voice in this debate. I commend him for doing so. He made an important point that children are the innocent victims in family breakdown, and that the best interests of the child must always come first, which my hon. Friend the Member for Hendon reinforced. My hon. Friends were right to emphasise that point. Children are at the heart of our family laws and our family justice system.
My hon. Friend the Member for Mid Worcestershire recognised and made clear the fact that there is a legal route for a grandparent to gain contact with their grandchildren. Under the current legislation, a family court can make a child arrangements order to determine who a child can live with, spend time with or otherwise have contact with. Some 2,000 grandparents go down that route every year. Let me describe how it works. A child arrangements order can provide for face-to-face contact—long visits and short visits, including overnight stays if appropriate. If necessary, it can also provide for contact to be made by other means, such as email, telephone or letter. The court has flexibility when considering whether to make a child arrangements order and, if so, on what terms.
Whether the court orders that a grandparent or other family member should have involvement in a child’s life depends on a number of factors. One or both parents may oppose such involvement. The Children and Family Court Advisory and Support Service may be asked to provide a welfare report on the beneficial impact of the involvement of a grandparent or other family member, and any risk of harm from ongoing parental opposition to such involvement and exposure of the child to ongoing conflict. That report can also include the wishes and feelings of the child. As I said, the welfare of the child is the paramount consideration at all times.
Given the dreadful stories we have heard about the impact of this issue on people’s lives, it is clear that the system could work better, and I am keen to look into how we can improve it.
Michael Tomlinson
We are fortunate indeed that the Minister has a good deal more time than Ministers normally have to respond, so I would welcome a lengthy response. The system she has outlined—the legal system of going to court—is complex and heart-wrenching. People should not have to go through that. Will she directly address the point my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Worcestershire (Nigel Huddleston) made about a presumption, which we hope would avoid the need for people to go to court in the first place?
Lucy Frazer
As always, my hon. Friend makes an important point that he expects me deal with, and I was just about to come to that. He made a very important point about out-of-court procedures. We need to look at the expensive and difficult court procedure, which sometimes increases conflict. That is not just the case when grandparents apply to court; in family law as a whole, courts can provide resolution for people who really need it but also increase conflict, particularly in family situations.
Jim Shannon
In my contribution I referred to Family Mediation NI, which has the specific task of trying to sort things out before they get to court. It was clear to me from a Northern Ireland perspective that had more money been available to it, many of those cases would have been sorted out beforehand and would never have got to court—I think that is what the hon. Member for Mid Worcestershire was saying. If we can get to the point where we can try to mediate and solve problems rather than get into litigation, with all the nastiness that brings, that is where we want to be.
Lucy Frazer
The hon. Gentleman is right. It is critical that we solve these issues early on, before they get to court. We are reviewing legal aid generally, but legal aid can be available for mediation for early legal help. In that context, there is a fees remission scheme in relation to the application to court where the threshold is higher for people over 60. However, would it not be better if people did not go to court at all?
A number of issues have been raised and ideas put forward about how we can improve the system. One, which was raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Worcestershire and by the hon. Member for Ashfield (Gloria De Piero), was about the fact that grandparents have to apply for leave. Some people see that as an additional hurdle, but experience shows that grandparents do not usually experience any difficulty in obtaining permission when their application is motivated by a genuine concern for the interests of the child. That is because a person can seek the court’s permission at the same time as they make their substantive application simply by ticking the box on the relevant form, and there is no need to pay a separate fee. That can be part and parcel of the hearing.
The leave requirement is not designed to be an obstacle to grandparents or other family members; it is meant to be a filter to sift out applications that are clearly not in a child’s best interests, such as vexatious applications aimed at undermining one of the parents involved in a dispute over the child or continuing parental conflict. Leave was examined as part of the independent family justice review led by David Norgrove, which in its final report, published in November 2011, recommended that the requirement for grandparents to apply for leave should remain as it is because it
“prevents hopeless or vexatious applications that are not in the interests of the child.”
My hon. Friend the Member for Mid Worcestershire also identified the fact that it was unfortunate that sometimes children were placed for adoption, despite the fact that a grandparent might be willing to care for them. Grandparents can apply for special guardianship orders, and the local authority should give preference to placing a child with a family member. He also identified, as picked up by my hon. Friend the Member for East Worthing and Shoreham (Tim Loughton), that there should be a change in the law in relation to presumption. We can look at that. He identified, and it is important to recognise, that some people think that elevates the grandparent’s involvement into a right, whereas, as I have identified, the family justice system puts the child, not the grandparent, at the heart of its consideration. As he accepts, there may be some unintended consequences that we will have to look into.
Edward Argar
The Minister is rightly highlighting the importance of the child being at the centre. She also said that she is willing to look at some issues again to avoid the involvement of expensive lawyers—I pay all due respect to lawyers; she is a distinguished lawyer herself. However, will she indicate when we might see some of those proposals and ideas come forward from the Ministry?
Lucy Frazer
As a new Minister, I am looking afresh at a number of issues. This point, which has been raised by many people, is one of a number of family justice measures the Department is looking at—this morning I had a meeting on another family justice issue of concern. We are looking at these matters very closely. The challenge is that one size does not necessarily fit all. These are important issues but, as I mentioned, we must also look at the out-of-court settlement procedure. I will look at this issue carefully, working with the Department for Education.
My hon. Friend the Member for Mid Worcestershire said at the end of his speech that he wanted to raise awareness. He has done that in the past, and he has certainly done so by calling the debate today. I commend him for his campaigning efforts, and I am grateful to him for giving me the opportunity to respond to this important debate on behalf of the Ministry of Justice. Finally, I send Marc and Jane Jackson every best wish on reuniting with their first granddaughter.
Draft First-tier Tribunal and Upper Tribunal (Composition of Tribunal) (amendment) order 2018
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Lucy Frazer)
I beg to move,
That the Committee has considered the draft First-tier Tribunal and Upper Tribunal (Composition of Tribunal) (Amendment) Order 2018.
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Pritchard. This statutory instrument introduces flexibility to the membership of tribunal panels. The changes are supported by the senior judiciary and the current Senior President of Tribunals, Sir Ernest Ryder.
I will start by describing our tribunal system, which is an important part of the justice system. Tribunals were initially designed to be proportionate, user-friendly ways of determining disputes. The SI seeks to bring more flexibility into the system. At the moment, both judicial and lay members sit on various panels. The current statutory scheme provides that, in determining the composition of the panel, regard should be had for the previous arrangements, which means that many tribunal panels are based significantly on historical precedents.
The SI provides the Senior President of Tribunals with more flexibility in when and how panel members are used. Experts will be used when they are needed, not simply because they have always been used. The context of the SI is that we are reforming the courts and tribunals system, using technology to bring it up to date. The SI allows the Senior President of Tribunals to consider what composition might be needed as our reform programme develops.
Quite simply, the SI removes the requirement to consider historical composition, but it provides safeguards. It provides that the Senior President of Tribunals must have regard to the nature of the dispute and the means by which it is to be determined, and the need for tribunal members to have particular expertise, skills and knowledge. The Senior President of Tribunals will still have a statutory duty, when determining the composition of panels, to consider the need for panel members to be experts in the law, or the subject matter being heard, and to ensure that the hearing is fair and efficient.
The SI also provides for ministerial oversight, so the panel composition will be set by practice direction. That will bring the position of the first-tier and upper tribunals into alignment with the wider justice system, as the Senior President of Tribunals will need to consult the Lord Chancellor on any panel changes but will continue to make the final determination.
In conclusion, the SI does not change any composition; that remains for the Senior President of Tribunals to review and consider. Safeguards are in place to ensure that users are not adversely affected. Whenever the Senior President of Tribunals has previously sought to amend panel arrangements, he has done so in collaboration with senior members of the judiciary. On that basis, I commend the order to the House.
Lucy Frazer
The hon. Lady makes some important and valuable points. The lay element is incredibly important in such tribunals, which play an important role. I will touch on three points by way of response. First, the lay element will not be overridden by the changes made by the SI. The Senior President of Tribunals has a statutory duty to consider whether there is a need for a lay member. If there is, that will be the result. He has a statutory duty to consider the nature of the dispute and whether members with particular knowledge are needed.
Secondly, it is already the case, following consultation, that in the Asylum and Immigration Tribunal deportation cases are not routinely operated with lay members, although they can be if the resident judge thinks that is appropriate. There have been no significant changes in that regard, so no significant results. The appeals allowed are unchanged as a result of that. There are not routinely three members and that system works well.
Thirdly, I too have some experience of appearing before tribunals. In those cases I have found that lay members play an important role, but the judges, who are legally trained, are very used to litigants appearing before them and to dealing with the matters before them.
The hon. Lady mentioned employment tribunals. I want to make it clear that employment tribunals do not fall within the remit of this SI. We believe that the order will ensure the right flexibility for our tribunals system.
Lucy Frazer
On the first point, the Senior President of Tribunals does not currently have to consult the Lord Chancellor. This measure will bring the tribunals into line with all the other courts, where the Lord Chancellor is consulted on changes to the composition of panels. On the point about a review, I am confident that there will be an impact assessment.
Mhairi Black
If the Senior President of Tribunals does not have to go to the Lord Chancellor already, what is the logic in introducing the change just now? The impartiality of the Senior President of Tribunals might be called into question if he is suddenly having to justify things. Would the impact assessment be within a year’s time, or is it two or three years away?
Lucy Frazer
The order will not affect impartiality. It follows the process already adopted in other senior courts and brings in ministerial involvement. The Senior President of Tribunals will have to consult the Lord Chancellor but will still have the final say. This measure just brings it in line with the wider legal system. On the timing of the impact assessment, it is one year.
Question put.
Draft Crime and Courts Act 2013 (Deferred Prosecution Agreements) (Amendment of Specified Offences) Order 2018
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The Chair
Before we begin, if any gentleman or anyone else, including ladies, would like to remove their jacket, please go ahead. It is very warm in here. I call the Minister to move the motion.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Lucy Frazer)
I beg to move,
That the Committee has considered the draft Crime and Courts Act 2013 (Deferred Prosecution Agreements) (Amendment of Specified Offences) Order 2018.
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Dorries. The statutory instrument relates to deferred prosecution agreements, which allow prosecutors to reach agreement with corporate entities that could otherwise be prosecuted for certain types of economic crime. The measure has been introduced simply to add extra offences. I say “add”, but we are simply dealing with the fact that the current legislation does not reflect changes made by the Financial Services Act 2012. That Act repeals certain offences and replaces them with new ones in the schedule relating to DPAs. That was a technical oversight, so I hope Committee members are pleased to hear that we should not detain them for long.
It is important to set out the background and identify what DPAs are. A DPA enables a prosecutor to reach agreement with a corporate entity that has committed an economic crime to allow the prosecution to be suspended pending the fulfilment of certain conditions by the company. It will be approved by a court only if the court is satisfied that it will meet the interests of justice, and if the terms are fair, reasonable and proportionate. The indictment that the company faces is suspended for the duration of the agreement—usually two or three years—and it can be reinstated if the company breaches the agreement. The purpose is to provide punishment such as disgorgement of profits, a financial penalty or steps to improve corporate governance. The entity receives a punishment without the severe consequences of a prosecution, which might result in a company going into liquidation, thus having to lay off innocent workers who have done nothing wrong.
Quite simply, the schedule of crimes in part 2 of schedule 17 of the Crime and Courts Act 2013 includes a reference to section 397 of the Financial Services and Markets Act 2000, which deals with misleading statements, practices and impressions in financial transactions. The provisions were repealed and replaced by the Financial Services Act 2012, which introduced offences that we want to include: misleading statements regarding relevant benchmarks and misleading impressions about the value of investments and interest rates that apply to a transaction. Those offences replace the section 397 offences in the repealed legislation. The statutory instrument seeks to amend part 2 of schedule 17 to the Crime and Courts Act 2013, and I commend it to the Committee.
Lucy Frazer
I should probably say that I was a practising barrister—I no longer practise—if that is relevant. I am grateful for the hon. Lady’s indications.
Question put and agreed to.
Oral Answers to Questions
Lucy Frazer Excerpts(6 years, 7 months ago)
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Mohammad Yasin (Bedford) (Lab)
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Lucy Frazer)
We are looking at ways to improve our justice system and to modernise the delivery of justice in many ways, including with technology. In circumstances where 41% of tribunals were used at half their capacity in 2016-17, it is right that we consider whether spending money on the physical estate is the best use of money.
Mohammad Yasin
The Government like to say that they have reallocated court services rather than closed them, but Bedford has lost its magistrates court and employment tribunal court, so the public and lay members must travel more than 30 miles to access justice. Can the Minister reassure me that family court services, which are heard in the highly utilised Shire Hall, will remain in Bedford indefinitely?
Lucy Frazer
The hon. Gentleman is right in relation to the changes taking place in Bedford to a certain extent, but I emphasise that the closure of the tribunal court is nothing to do with any changes being made by the Ministry of Justice or Her Majesty’s Courts and Tribunals Service. The tribunal service is closing because the landlord did not extend the lease, and it was a decision of listing, which is a judicial capacity, to move the tribunal court’s hearings elsewhere. Civil cases will be heard in Bedford magistrates court, and until another location is found, it will not close.
Kevin Hollinrake (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)
Northallerton magistrates court in my constituency is scheduled for closure. Will the Minister consider using that court as a pilot for some of the future technology solutions, to ensure that those are workable in practice, before the closure is implemented?
Lucy Frazer
My hon. Friend makes a valid point, as has his neighbour, my hon. Friend the Member for Richmond (Yorks) (Rishi Sunak). I have met them both and the police and crime commissioner for the area. It is important to consider the appropriateness of pilots for mobile technology, and we will do so.
Richard Burgon (Leeds East) (Lab)
Thousands of key court staff were axed, but the Government are now spending tens of millions of pounds more on contracting agency staff. More than 100 courts were sold off, each raising not much more than the average house price. Now the Secretary of State has appointed someone with a slash-and-burn record as the new chair of the HMCTS board, telling the press that Tim Parker’s
“expertise will be vital as we deliver our reform and modernisation of the courts”.
To allay concerns that Mr Parker has been appointed for his toughness on cuts, can the Minister outline the specific expertise that Mr Parker has in working in our court system?
Lucy Frazer
The hon. Gentleman makes a number of points that I would like to refute, but I will mainly concentrate on two. It is important that where successful people in business put themselves forward for public service, we should welcome them and not put off experienced people from taking up important posts. Mr Parker has been successful in the businesses that he operated and has operated them appropriately, and we welcome him to his post. The hon. Gentleman also talks about cuts to our system. I would like to make it clear that the Ministry of Justice is proposing an extensive reform programme, which will put £1 billion into our courts service.
Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)
Benefit applicants in Kettering tell me that they are now having to wait a completely unacceptable 45 weeks for tribunal appeal hearings due to a lack of a suitable location. Will the Minister look into that as a matter of urgency and get that problem fixed?
Lucy Frazer
It is very important that when cases are started, they are heard expediently, so that people are not prejudiced and do not have to wait for justice. I am happy to meet my hon. Friend to talk about those issues.
Carol Monaghan (Glasgow North West) (SNP)
John Lamont (Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk) (Con)
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Lucy Frazer)
First, I congratulate my hon. Friend on his impressive marathon run at the weekend.
We have agreed an implementation period that will give businesses and individuals legal certainty. We are now concentrating on ensuring that we negotiate the right future for our country, including a deal to ensure that there is mutual enforcement of recognition of judgments in the justice sector.
John Lamont
I thank the Minister for her response. I am very pleased not to have to bob this week, I can tell you, Mr Speaker.
Scotland is proud to have its own ancient and distinct legal system. Brexit will present the most significant challenge to that since the creation of the Scottish Parliament. It is therefore vital that we get it right. Will the Minister reassure me that, at her Department’s heart, it will ensure that Scots law continues to flourish post Brexit, respecting the distinct nature of Scots law and preventing legal confusion and chaos?
Lucy Frazer
My hon. Friend is right to identify that Scotland has a distinct legal system that should be respected. It is important that we engage fully with the devolved Administrations to ensure that we get the best and the right deal throughout the United Kingdom. The Secretary of State will be speaking this afternoon to the Scottish Justice Minister and my officials speak regularly with their counterparts in Scotland to ensure that we will get the best deal for the UK.
Laura Smith (Crewe and Nantwich) (Lab)
Given the uncertainty surrounding Brexit, it is important that the Government do not add to the worries of businesses, especially those that would otherwise be in a position to invest and grow. Will the Secretary of State end the uncertainty in the credit market and release the response to part 2 of the soft tissue injury claims process consultation immediately?
Lucy Frazer
The hon. Lady raises an interesting issue that I am happy to look into. More generally, legal certainty is incredibly important, which is why it is so good that we have agreed the implementation period, which gives us a period of certainty.
Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)
Has the Minister made any assessment in the Department of the beneficial changes that can follow from our legislative framework here in the UK, once we are finally unencumbered by the EU?
Lucy Frazer
The hon. Gentleman is right that, after we have left the EU, we will be able to determine our laws, which will benefit our country in the way that we decide.
Joanna Cherry (Edinburgh South West) (SNP)
At the moment, there are two British judges on the European Court of Justice: one from the English legal tradition and one from the Scottish legal tradition. During the transition period, the domestic legal systems of the United Kingdom will continue to be subject to the full force of the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice, whether in relation to litigation between private individuals or enforcement against the United Kingdom. Why, then, have the UK Government agreed to article 6 of the draft withdrawal agreement?
Lucy Frazer
The judges at the ECJ make a very valuable contribution to our jurisprudence and to the rights of individual citizens. It is worth pointing out that once someone is appointed as a judge of the ECJ, they are not a representative of their country; they are an individual determining cases that come before them, without any partisanship towards their country. Indeed, if we had a British case before the Court, there would be no saying whether it would come before an English judge or any other judge.
Joanna Cherry
One of the things that means the European Court of Justice is not a foreign court is the presence of British judges on it, but article 6 of the draft withdrawal agreement, which appears to have been agreed, provides that there will be no British judges on the Court of Justice during the transition period. Effectively, they are getting the sack at the end of next March, despite the Court’s continued jurisdiction over the United Kingdom. Does the Minister accept that, as a rule of law issue, it is concerning that there will be no Scottish judge and no English judge on the Court of Justice during the transition period, despite the fact that these countries will continue to be subject to the Court of Justice? Will she persuade the Prime Minister and the Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union to revisit this issue in the negotiations to come, so that there will be British judges on the Court of Justice during the transition period?
Lucy Frazer
As I mentioned, once the judges are appointed, they act independently of their country, so if we respect the judgments and the integrity of the other judges who are there already, we should be satisfied that we will get justice.
Stephen McPartland (Stevenage) (Con)
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Lucy Frazer)
My hon. Friend, along with my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for North East Hertfordshire (Sir Oliver Heald) and the right hon. Member for Delyn (David Hanson), are campaigning strongly and tirelessly on this issue; I was very pleased to meet them on 17 April. I am not aware of any specific conversations that the Secretary of State has had with his Cabinet colleagues, but the Government are sympathetic to the intention behind the Bill, although we believe that the offence is already caught by other legislation.
Stephen McPartland
Police dog Finn from my constituency was stabbed in his stomach with a 10-inch blade. When the offender tried to stab his handler, police dog Finn jumped up and took another stab wound to his head to save the handler. If the handler had not been given a little scratch to his hand, the offender could not have been sent to prison, because the current legislation does not work. The Service Animals (Offences) Bill, which is promoted by my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for North East Hertfordshire (Sir Oliver Heald), has its Second Reading this Friday. I am grateful to the Minister for the meeting that she had with me, but will she support the Bill on Friday because it can make progress only with Government support?
Lucy Frazer
I am aware of the case and I was very pleased to discuss it. Police dog Finn did a remarkable thing, and I know that he has been recognised for his work. The Government are looking at the issue.
David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)
But will the Minister support the Bill on Friday?
Lucy Frazer
As the right hon. Gentleman knows, the Bill is in the hands of the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, and it will respond.
Sir Oliver Heald (North East Hertfordshire) (Con)
May I update my hon. and learned Friend? Some 34 out of the 41 police commissioners in this country support the Service Animals (Offences) Bill, and lawyers up and down the country, including Sarah Dixon, who runs the Finn’s law campaign, have identified a gap in the law. Is it not time that the Government backed my Bill?
Lucy Frazer
I am grateful for a third opportunity to address this issue and to speak again—this is the third time that I have heard my right hon. and learned Friend express his support for the Bill in the Chamber. As I have said, the Government are looking at this issue, and the matter is primarily for DEFRA.
Mr Speaker
In so far as the right hon. and learned Member for North East Hertfordshire (Sir Oliver Heald) seeks my advice, and he might not do so, my advice to him, to put it bluntly, is to follow Churchill’s adage: KBO—keep buggering on at all times. Just keep going, man!
Andrea Jenkyns (Morley and Outwood) (Con)
I congratulate hon. Members on their work in this area. As an animal rights campaigner, I think it is simply wrong that criminal damage is the highest charge that can be brought to punish someone who attacks a service animal. What are the Government doing to change the legal oversight, to protect our brave service animals, and to ensure that those who attack and injure service animals are subject to the full weight of the law?
Lucy Frazer
My hon. Friend raises a technical point about the offences that are available. In fact, there are two: criminal damage; and an offence under animal welfare legislation. Both attract a penalty of up to six months and, as she may be aware, DEFRA has identified that it is looking to increase the sentence to five years.
Mr William Wragg (Hazel Grove) (Con)
Gareth Snell (Stoke-on-Trent Central) (Lab/Co-op)
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Lucy Frazer)
I regularly meet HMCTS to discuss the court estate. It regularly reviews the estate and has monitoring systems in place to ensure that there is appropriate physical access for disabled people and, when appropriate, to identify gaps and make improvements.
Gareth Snell
If there is monitoring, the Minister will be aware that the North Staffordshire combined justice centre, which is where my constituents from Stoke-on-Trent are sent for personal independence payment appeals, has small steps and insufficient parking, and on one occasion a gentleman was asked to remove a piece of life-saving equipment so that it could be scanned by security before he entered the building. Is the Minister willing to meet Pam Bryan and John Beech from the Stoke-on-Trent and Newcastle disability network so that we can look at how the site can be made fit for purpose?
Lucy Frazer
The hon. Gentleman is right: I am aware of that. The charity he mentions—the Stoke-on-Trent Area Network for Disability—made a complaint, and HMCTS had a meeting on 5 April to discuss the issue. It is looking at the feasibility of implementing the suggestions that were made, such as putting in place automatic doors, signage and improvements to the waiting area, but I would be very happy to meet the hon. Gentleman and his constituents to discuss them.
Daniel Zeichner (Cambridge) (Lab)
Access to courts for people with disabilities will not be improved by closing courts. It turns out from the response to a written question I recently tabled that this year no Minister has visited any of the courts that are due for closure. May I implore the Minister to come to Cambridge and talk to people with disabilities to see the impact that the Government’s plans will have?
Lucy Frazer
I am always happy to meet people who use the courts service around the country. We are improving access in a number of ways, including by ensuring not only that we have court buildings, but that disabled people can take advantage of the ability to give evidence by video link so that they do not have to go to a court at all.
Tim Loughton (East Worthing and Shoreham) (Con)
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Lucy Frazer)
I was pleased to meet my hon. Friend in March to discuss issues related to the family justice system, which he cares deeply about. It is important that every child has a stable home, and we need to look across the justice system to ensure that it delivers the right outcomes for vulnerable children and their families.
Tim Loughton
I was grateful for the meeting with the Minister. Does she agree with Baroness Shackleton that fault-based divorce produces uncertainty that creates an industry for lawyers and a jungle for the layman? Is it not high time for an overhaul of the whole family law system to address that and many other issues to do with couples’ rights before, after and without marriage?
Lucy Frazer
My hon. Friend makes a powerful point about no-fault divorces, as he has previously. When there is conflict within a family, it is important to reduce that conflict in the interests of not only the parents but the children. I can confirm that we are looking actively at the issue.
Yasmin Qureshi (Bolton South East) (Lab)
Our family courts are in crisis. The Ministry of Justice’s own figures show that since the removal of legal aid from the family courts, two thirds of litigants represent themselves and have no access to lawyers. They have to deal with the incredibly complex issues that arise in the family courts. Will the Minister confirm whether, as part of the review of the family justice system, the Lord Chancellor will re-establish early legal aid in such cases, which we have promised?
Lucy Frazer
The hon. Lady makes an important point. Family justice is important, because issues for children start by having a stable home and a strong family. She will know that, as part of the LASPO reviews, we will be looking at the issues she raises. I should also say that we have an online pilot at the moment relating to divorce, and it has been incredibly successful. It used to be the case that 40% of paper applications for a divorce were sent back owing to incorrect filings. That number is now down to 0.8%.
Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con)
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Lucy Frazer)
We have had a number of representations about this issue, many from the hon. Gentleman himself. I took part in the Westminster Hall debate on the subject, and I was pleased to have the opportunity to hear from him and many other Members. The Secretary of State also met the family of a victim recently. I understand that the recent decisions of the Legal Aid Agency are frustrating for the families, but the hon. Gentleman knows that I am unable to intervene in individual cases.
Richard Burden
As public funding has been made available to the coroner to appeal the judgment of the High Court on the naming of suspects in relation to the Birmingham pub bombings inquests, should not parity of representation be made available to the families of the victims of those bombings, to defend that same High Court judgment? If legal aid is not available to the families, why does the Minister not make funding directly available, following the example of the Hillsborough inquests?
Lucy Frazer
The hon. Gentleman makes a powerful point. This is a tragedy for all those concerned. He knows that the families have legal aid in relation to the inquest. Legislation on legal aid for judicial review and for inquests is different.
Stephen Kinnock (Aberavon) (Lab)
Peter Aldous (Waveney) (Con)
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Lucy Frazer)
My hon. Friend makes an important point about the important role that magistrates play within our legal justice system. The Secretary of State told the House of Lords Constitution Committee that the judicial age in general is being looked at in the round.
Stephen Kinnock (Aberavon) (Lab)
Christine Jardine (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Lucy Frazer
I am aware of the recent document produced by the Law Society. Of course, it is important that we have professionals at every level, that we have a diverse profession and that we encourage young people to join what is an excellent profession.
Alex Chalk (Cheltenham) (Con)
Lucy Frazer
My hon. Friend is right to say that in putting together this scheme discussions went on for two years with members of the Bar and the MOJ. They were calling for us to implement this scheme, so that is the scheme we have implemented. We are always willing to talk to members of the CBA and the Bar Council. Since I have been appointed, in the past three months, I have met the chairman of the Bar Council twice and the chair of the CBA twice.
Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP)
Northern Ireland has just undergone the longest rape trial in its history, resulting in the acquittal of four men. The Department is carrying out a major review of that trial because of subsequent problems flowing from it. Will the Government—the Department—make a submission to that review, particularly looking at whether the accused should not be named until after a verdict is published?
Mr John Whittingdale (Maldon) (Con)
Lucy Frazer
I know my right hon. Friend cares deeply about this important matter and he has raised it with me several times. Transparency is very important, and we are looking at the pilot. I am happy to update him, and I am looking forward to our meeting tomorrow with the Society of Editors.
Rachael Maskell (York Central) (Lab/Co-op)
When a person spends time in custody and the CPS then drops the case against them, as opposed to losing a case in court, they are not entitled to compensation, even when they have lost their home and everything. Does the Minister agree that that is a huge injustice? Will she say what she is doing about it?
Lucy Frazer
The hon. Lady raises an interesting issue and I would very much like to discuss it with her.
Zac Goldsmith (Richmond Park) (Con)
Nick Hardwick, the former head of the Parole Board, made the case yesterday that it should be required to publish comprehensive explanations for the decisions it takes and that it should make public the names of the people who are making those decisions. May I urge my right hon. Friend to follow that advice as he undertakes his own review?
Andrew Jones (Harrogate and Knaresborough) (Con)
What steps are the Government taking to improve the court experience for victims and for witnesses, because it can be a highly stressful and intimidating environment?
Lucy Frazer
The MOJ is taking a number of steps to improve the position for victims and witnesses: we have introduced the ability to give evidence through video link, so people can give their evidence even before the hearing, which takes the stress out of it; and physically disabled people can give evidence by video link in another location. So we are trying to improve the Courts Service experience for everybody.
Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab)
Next week will be the six-month anniversary of the publication of the report by Bishop James Jones into the experience of the Hillsborough families. The report contains many recommendations that relate to the work of the Ministry of Justice. Will the Secretary of State explain when we will see action from the Government on those recommendations?
Lucy Frazer
The position in relation to inquests and legal aid funding, as the hon. Lady may or may not know, is running alongside our legal aid review. I hope to be able to assure her that those matters are being looked at.
Kevin Hollinrake (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)
One of my constituents is fighting for justice, having suffered horrific physical and sexual abuse at Medomsley youth detention centre in the 1970s. Will my hon. Friend please update the House on the likely timescales for compensation and further convictions?
Chris Law (Dundee West) (SNP)
A failure to agree on arrangements in international family law risks leaving a serious gap in the legal framework for proceedings involving children with family connections to the UK. Can the Secretary of State confirm what contingency planning is being undertaken to deal with that risk?
Lucy Frazer
It is really important that as we leave the EU we try to get arrangements similar to those that we have in relation to our cross-border workings through our court system. Family law is one of the important matters that we need to look at. I was very encouraged to see in the EU’s recent guidance that reciprocal arrangements in relation to family are one area that they are particularly interested in.
Leaving the EU: Justice System
Lucy Frazer Excerpts(6 years, 8 months ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Lucy Frazer)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Buck. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Robert Neill) on securing this debate—his second in two days—on a very important subject. I also thank him and his fellow Committee members, past and present, for their important report of March last year.
As a former barrister, I fully understand the importance of obtaining the right deal for the justice system as we leave the EU. My hon. Friend the Member for Cheltenham (Alex Chalk) made a powerful speech about the many reasons why our justice system is important, and I agree with him. The Government recognise the importance of the legal sector. I know that because the Prime Minister highlighted it earlier this month in her Mansion House speech. She not only referred specifically to the importance of civil judicial enforcement and the mutual recognition of qualifications, but identified a few areas where the UK and EU economies were linked, one of which was law.
Before I deal with the issues Members raised, let me show how the Government have listened to the important points made by the Justice Committee and others. In its report, the Committee stated that we need certainty during any implementation period and that we must recognise the importance of criminal justice, and of mutual recognition and enforcement. It also highlighted the role of legal services. All those points have been and continue to be listened to. On implementation, the Committee stated that it was concerned that we would move to an inferior type of arrangement for a transitional period, and that it wanted to remove the risk of uncertainty. I hope the Committee is pleased that, in the implementation period, we will ensure that we have the same common rules so that our laws remain in place. There will be no inferior relationship in that period.
The Committee stated that we should prioritise EU-UK co-operation on criminal justice and that that serious matter should be negotiated separately. My hon. Friend the Member for Bromley and Chislehurst rightly identified that the Prime Minister has recognised the importance of this area, as she did when she was Home Secretary. She said in her Munich speech that we are “unconditionally committed to maintaining” Europe’s security now and after our withdrawal from the EU because “our first duty” as a nation is “to protect our citizens”.
On commercial law, the Committee outlined that the Rome I and Rome II regulations on applicable law rules do not require reciprocity and could be incorporated into domestic law. That is precisely what the Government are doing under the repeal Bill. The Committee asked us to ensure that maintaining the UK as a first-class commercial law centre is a top priority. It asked us to protect choice of law, and mutual recognition and enforcement. It stated that we should replicate the recast Brussels regulation and remain a party to the Lugano convention and The Hague convention. The Committee knows those are our ambitions, which we highlighted in our future partnership paper, along with the close relationship we want. We very much hope that we will ensure mutual recognition and enforcement in our separation agreement for cases started before Brexit.
Members will have noted in the Prime Minister’s recent Mansion House speech her desire to reach agreement on civil judicial co-operation. She referenced Lugano, company law and intellectual property law, and stressed the need for legal certainty and coherence. We seek to continue our participation in The Hague convention and the Lugano convention.
Robert Neill
I welcome the Minister’s assurance that that is the Government’s intention. I think everyone regards that as essential. On the urgency of getting agreement and specificity, is she aware of the recent survey by the international law firm Simmons and Simmons of its clients in Germany, France, Italy, Spain and the Netherlands about the approach that will be taken to important English jurisdiction clauses in commercial contracts post Brexit? So much litigation takes place in the UK because contracts have clauses specifying English jurisdiction. Some 50% of those clients will move away from English law unless there is certainty soon. Good intentions are not enough. We need answers very soon.
Lucy Frazer
I very much understand the need for certainty and the importance of those clauses in contracts. There should be a level of legal certainty, because those contracts will be respected in the implementation period. Furthermore, as was stated—I cannot remember by whom—we can sign up to The Hague convention unilaterally. As my hon. Friend the Member for Cheltenham said in yesterday’s debate, that convention is not the gold standard, because certain types of jurisdiction clauses are not included. However, many are, and it should give business a level of certainty.
The Committee also referred to legal services. It is important that we recognise the value of that sector to jobs and our economy, and the fact that it underpins our financial services sector. The hon. Member for Enfield, Southgate (Bambos Charalambous) identified many important points about the mutual recognition of qualifications. The Prime Minister has recognised that, too. She said
“it would make sense to continue to recognise each other’s qualifications in the future.”
That has been specifically recognised in relation to our agreement on citizens’ rights. Those citizens who remain have every right to continue to practise as they do at the moment.
My hon. Friend the Member for Bromley and Chislehurst rightly identified that the European Parliament might say that what we are putting forward is unachievable. In any negotiation, I would not expect the other party and those who will be confirming the agreement to lie down and say they accept everything the UK puts forward. We must remember that it is a negotiation.
My hon. Friend mentioned competition from other jurisdictions and the Paris court. That is an important point, but we must remember that the UK is expanding its judicial offering. We have interests in Europe and in Britain as part of the EU, but recently we have also seen judicial co-operation and members of the Bar helping to establish courts in Dubai, Qatar and Kazakhstan. We can continue to thrive in those centres outside the EU.
My hon. Friend made an important point about feeding into DExEU. He can be assured that our negotiators at the Ministry of Justice are party to the teams, negotiating alongside DExEU in matters that affect justice. He should also be assured that we are discussing these important issues at ministerial level—I have had discussions with my counterpart in DExEU.
In relation to clause 6 of the European Union (Withdrawal) Bill, Lord Keen, who took the debate in the House of Lords, said clearly that the Government have heard the views expressed by Members of the House of Lords, and that we will return to that point.
The right hon. Member for Delyn (David Hanson), the hon. Member for Bolton South East (Yasmin Qureshi) and my hon. Friend the Member for Cheltenham made important points on cross-border security, including that, as a matter of principle, crime does not respect borders, and that many measures, including the European arrest warrant, are critical to our security. I was asked for a timetable. First, we were agreeing separation—budget and citizens’ rights—and have done so. Secondly, we were to agree an implementation period, and we have done that. We are now turning to the matters of the future partnership deal and security.
We want an ambitious deal. There are many examples of international agreements between Europol and other third countries, such as the US, but like both the right hon. Member for Delyn and my hon. Friend the Member for Cheltenham, I believe these matters will be solved because it is in the interests not just of us and our citizens but of other citizens.
Alex Chalk
We would all be interested to know whether those matters will be considered at the outset, potentially separately from other matters, or whether they will be thrown into the mix as something potentially to be bargained away.
Lucy Frazer
My hon. Friend should not assume that those points have not yet been considered. We are moving from an EU perspective to discuss these issues, and they will be considered.
David Hanson
I am concerned and interested in whether the matters we have debated will form part of the agreement to be put to Parliament in October or November, if we have a final vote then.
Lucy Frazer
I expect that the deal, of which that will form part, will be put to Parliament.
My hon. Friend the Member for Banbury (Victoria Prentis) rightly identified the importance of mutual enforcement and the mechanism to secure our future relationship. She asked for specifics in relation to the future relationship. The Government are looking at a number of options and are confident that an option will work. There are examples out there that other countries have used, and we would like a bespoke arrangement that works for our country.
My hon. Friend the Member for Cheltenham made an important point about the independence and integrity of our judges. I agree that it is not for them to make political decisions in exercising their independent function as the judiciary. As a barrister, I regularly referred to foreign law—I am sure he has, too—in support of points I made in courts for a number of years to support or distinguish cases. That is not an unusual feature of what goes on in our tribunals.
Alex Chalk
My hon. and learned Friend is being generous with her time. The reality, however, is that looking to the High Court of Australia for interpretive guidance is entirely different from looking to the European Court of Justice in the post-Brexit context. One is not political and the other potentially is. The court of public opinion is a concern. That distinction must be taken into account.
Lucy Frazer
I understand the point, which my hon. Friend makes articulately. He is right that judges need guidance, and as I said the Government are looking at clause 6 as the Bill goes through the House.
My hon. Friend asked whether justice should be considered separately. The chairman of the Bar Council raised that point with me and with the Secretary of State. I understand and agree on the importance of the justice deal, which he reiterated throughout his speech.
The hon. Member for Stretford and Urmston (Kate Green) made an important point about children. I hope she will be pleased that, in the European Council guidelines on 23 March, the EU specifically stated that it is interested in considering judicial co-operation in matrimonial parental responsibility. Hon. Members have made important contributions on an important matter, and I am grateful to have had the opportunity to answer them.
Leaving the EU: Legal Services
Lucy Frazer Excerpts(6 years, 8 months ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Lucy Frazer)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Davies. It is also a pleasure to hear the debate brought about by my hon. Friend the Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Robert Neill) and the contributions made by the other members of the Justice Committee. That Committee is doing a huge amount of work to ensure that the issues that matter in our justice system are brought to the forefront and to Ministers to ensure that we have the best possible justice system going forward.
Today, as always, my hon. Friend highlighted important issues that affect us in relation to Brexit. Like him, I acknowledge the important work done by our legal services sector. By reference to points similar to his, there are four key points. The first is jobs, and the legal services sector is the source of many jobs. As he rightly mentioned, it employs well over 300,000 people.
Secondly, the sector contributes significantly to our economy: £24 billion every year. As my hon. Friend highlighted, that money is brought in by not just the legal services sector but its interdependency and relationship with the financial services sector. He mentioned TheCityUK, whose CEO, Miles Celic, highlighted that very point. He said:
“The UK-based legal services sector forms an integral and crucial part of the wider financial and related professional services ecosystem which makes the UK a truly globally-leading international financial centre.”
The legal services sector does not only those things but so much more. It supports people when they are most vulnerable. Many lawyers give up their time to support others for free through the Bar Pro Bono Unit and LawWorks, and I was pleased to see the launch in 2014 of the UK collaborative plan for pro bono, with more than 40 firms committing 325,000 hours a year to support the most vulnerable.
Our sector is so successful because we have outstanding professionals. We have a well-established system of law and a first-class judiciary, whose expertise and impartiality is recognised throughout the world. For those reasons, my hon. Friend is right to say that we need to protect this sector post Brexit, and we are doing that in a number of ways.
My hon. Friends the Members for Henley (John Howell), for Cheltenham (Alex Chalk), and for Bromley and Chislehurst referred to the importance of mutual recognition and the enforcement of judgments. I hope that in our withdrawal agreement we will soon reach an agreement on the protection of and mutual recognition of judgments, and on separation for cases that are pending and currently before the courts.
Alex Chalk
I am encouraged to hear that. Some of the evidence presented to the inquiry stressed that if we get such an agreement right, there is a great opportunity for a springboard, particularly in east Asia, where there is a lot of work that British lawyers can seek to win. However, that will require that sound foundation of mutual recognition of judgments, and mutual enforceability.
Lucy Frazer
I am grateful to my hon. Friend, and it is important to give certainty to the legal services sector, so that they can advise their clients accordingly. My point was about the withdrawal agreement and what will happen to cases that are already pending before the court. The second stage of our negotiation was about implementation, and we have given businesses legal certainty by ensuring that our current arrangements will continue to apply during the implementation period. We are starting to negotiate and come to an arrangement on what will happen in future after we leave the EU.
My hon. Friend the Member for Cheltenham was right when he mentioned the gold standard and the Brussels regulation, and my hon. Friend the Member for Henley was correct to identify the importance of the Hague convention. Both those things are important, and we hope to secure the Hague convention as a minimum. It is right to ensure that there will be no gap before we rejoin that convention, and we are pressing to secure that. Our ambition and aim is to negotiate as hard as possible and ensure arrangements and protections in future that are similar to those we currently have.
My hon. Friend the Member for Bromley and Chislehurst raised the important question of legal services, the right of citizens to practise here and abroad, and the mutual recognition of qualifications. Again, on separation, as part of the withdrawal agreement we have agreed that any lawyers within the scope of the citizens’ rights agreement who have become part of the host profession in the member state should remain recognised and able to practise. Last week we agreed the terms of the implementation period, in which we will have the same rules as now. Therefore, rules on market access will continue, including on the provision of services and establishments for lawyers. The Government are keen to ensure a good deal for the legal services sector in future.
Robert Neill
I am glad to hear the Minister say that, and I am sure she will recognise that for the legal services sector, a CETA-type deal simply is no good. For legal services, a CETA-type deal is no deal. When we seek an ambitious deal, we must go beyond that which has been posited by some as a solution, because CETA would be just as bad as the cliff edge, which I think the Minister and I, and the Government, do not wish for under any circumstances.
Lucy Frazer
My hon. Friend makes an important point, but we can see how the Prime Minister is approaching this. In her Mansion House speech she specifically said that it makes sense for us to continue to recognise qualifications in future, and she identified the importance of civil and judicial co-operation. She specifically identified a few areas where the UK and EU economies are linked, and one of those was law.
As my hon. Friend rightly identified, our opportunity to expand our legal services extends not just to the EU, and we also have the opportunity to develop free trade agreements with third countries, which may cover legal services. He was right, however, to say that protectionism already exists in other countries, and although few FTAs currently cover legal services, we hope and are ambitious to change that in the future.
It is not only in the Brexit discussions that we continue to support our legal profession, and considering LawTech, technology, and innovation in legal services is key to ensuring that the United Kingdom retains its world-leading status. That is why the Government, building on success in the FinTech sector, are ensuring that new and innovative legal technologies are embraced and supported. We are fully supportive of LawTech innovation, which is now gathering pace. The number of LawTech start-ups in the UK is increasing each year, from three in 2010, to more than 60 in 2016. We are committed to ensuring that the UK becomes a world leader in smart contracts, and we are keen to bring together work that is being done to make those contracts a reality.
We are doing other significant work beyond the UK to support and promote legal services abroad. We are joining up with the judiciary and legal services sector, helping it to gain footholds in new markets, and proactively spreading the message about why English law, and the legal offering in the UK, is so strong. My hon. Friend rightly referred to the GREAT campaign, and the “Legal Services are GREAT” campaign was launched by Lord Keen in Singapore last year. The campaign targets stronger links with emerging and established markets across the world, and it aims to cement the UK’s reputation as the world’s pre-eminent legal centre. It is showcasing the very best of what the UK’s legal services sector has to offer, bringing business to the UK and our legal firms, chambers and courts.
We are also working with partners to target the countries that matter to the UK. In April we will deliver an English law summit in Kazakhstan, alongside the Law Society and the Bar Council in England and Wales. In May, our campaign will feature in the UK pavilion of the Silk Road Expo in Xi’an, China. We are working bilaterally with our key allies on areas of mutual interest. Legal services feature prominently in the regular programme of bilateral ministerial meetings that we organise, including last year with Ministers from Singapore, India, Australia and China.
My hon. Friend made a number of important points, and we must recognise the importance of talent, and the mutual recognition of qualifications and judgments. He rightly said that there is a wealth of knowledge in the legal services sector, and the Department is using that. I greatly welcome the expertise that that sector brings to ensuring not just a good justice system, but the right deal on Brexit in the future. My hon. Friend also mentioned intergovernmental Department contributions, and the importance of other Departments appreciating the significance of the legal sector. I assure him that I am already talking to my counterparts in the Department for Exiting the European Union and the Treasury to identify the importance of the legal services sector. Yesterday I gave evidence with a legally qualified Minister, the Under-Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union (Suella Fernandes), and having heard her give that evidence, I am confident that she is very much aware of the importance of our legal sector.
In conclusion, our overall message is simple: the UK is, and will continue to be, one of the pre-eminent legal centres in the world. We will continue to be a leading player, and I am determined to ensure that English law remains the law of choice, and that the UK continues to be the jurisdiction of choice.
Robert Neill
I welcome the Minister’s positive remarks. On work within Government, can she assure us that maximum effort will be made to join up the work of the legal services working group, which exists within the Ministry of Justice, and the Brexit Law Committee, which reports to the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy? The profession is concerned that there should be no disjuncture between the two. It sounds as if the Minister and the Under-Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union have been talking, but it is important that that happens consistently at official and professional level.
Lucy Frazer
That is a good point that I am happy to take forward. It has been helpful for me to air these points today, and once again I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this important debate, and indeed all hon. Members on their contributions today.
Question put and agreed to.
Legal Aid: Birmingham Pub Bombings
Lucy Frazer Excerpts(6 years, 8 months ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Lucy Frazer)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hollobone.
I am extremely grateful to have the opportunity to respond on such an important issue in such an important debate, and I congratulate the hon. Member for Birmingham, Northfield (Richard Burden) on securing it. He has been very active in supporting his constituents and in making representations to the Legal Aid Agency, as the hon. Member for Birmingham, Yardley (Jess Phillips) has been in raising the profile more broadly. Like them, I welcome the families to Westminster today.
I understand why there is such strength of feeling on the subject from hon. Members on all sides. I have the deepest sympathies with the families and friends of those who were injured or lost their lives in the terrible atrocities that took place in Birmingham in 1974. I cannot imagine what they have been through. I understand the inquest plays a crucial part in the investigations that continue, and I appreciate that it plays an important role in enabling families to understand and make sense of what happened to their loved ones.
Much of the debate has focused on legal aid. The hon. Member for Birmingham, Northfield asked me to explain how legal aid differs in the various types of cases for which it can be granted in relation to an inquest. It is therefore important to identify the types of assistance that can be granted and have been sought in this case.
The Ministry of Justice acknowledges that, in certain cases, legal aid in the lead-up to an inquest may be required, and has ensured that early legal advice for inquests is available under legal aid for those who are eligible. I understand that such legal aid was sought and granted in this case. Next is the issue of legal aid for representation at the hearing itself. An inquest should be an inquisitorial process that focuses on establishing the facts of death. It should not really be an adversarial hearing, and should be conducted in a very different way from a court proceeding. Participants do not always need to present legal arguments and so, in most inquest hearings, the bereaved family do not need representation to participate in the process. Most inquest hearings are conducted without the need for publicly funded representation.
Having said that, publicly funded representation may be needed in certain circumstances and is then sought. Legal aid is available for legal representation at inquests under the exceptional case funding scheme. Legal aid is awarded through that scheme on a case-by-case basis. In deciding whether funded representation may be necessary, the Legal Aid Agency considers all the relevant individual facts and circumstances of the case, which usually include the particular circumstances of the family. Legal aid for representation at inquests is subject to means and merits tests. In such circumstances, means can be waived.
As the hon. Member for Birmingham, Northfield highlighted, the families have previously received publicly funded legal representation for the inquests on this matter.
Joanna Cherry
Like me, the Minister practised in the courts before she became an MP. Does she agree that, where the families of the bereaved are not represented at inquests, stones are often left unturned that would have been turned had the families had a lawyer?
Lucy Frazer
The hon. and learned Lady makes an important point, as always. The position is that it is not always necessary. If it is necessary, families are able to apply for it, but in his report on Hillsborough, the Bishop of Liverpool identified that, according to a 2003 fundamental review of death certification and investigation cases, no representation was needed in 79% of cases, because the families could represent themselves.
In many inquests, legal aid is not needed because the families do not need to advance legal arguments, because it is not an adversarial process, but I recognise that in some cases, it becomes a very adversarial process—that is not really appropriate, but it does become that—and legal aid can be and is sought. In fact, exceptional case funding has been granted in half the cases where people have applied for it.
Gloria De Piero
The Minister mentions the Bishop of Liverpool’s review. His report called on the Government to instate:
“Publicly funded legal representation for bereaved families at inquests at which public bodies are legally represented.”
It has been five months since that report was published, but we still have not had a response from the Government.
Lucy Frazer
The hon. Lady is right—others have also called for that. That is why the Government are undertaking a review, which has started and which I will come to, in relation to legal aid funding and the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Act 2012 generally, but more particularly and more relevant in this case, in relation to legal aid funding for inquests.
I have identified the two circumstances where legal aid was sought and granted in this case. The third, which is what the debate centres on, is the provision of legal aid for judicial review. Legal aid is available for judicial review in generic terms. However, as with legal aid for inquests, this availability is subject to a number of restrictions. Applicants must satisfy statutory tests for their means and merits in order to qualify for legal aid for judicial review. The reason that they are required to satisfy those tests is to ensure that the resources that are available for legal aid generally are given to those who are most in need. In the case in question, which was an application for funding for a judicial review, the Legal Aid Agency determined that those requirements were not met.
I fully appreciate that the families have found that decision of the Legal Aid Agency very frustrating. The hon. Member for Ashfield (Gloria De Piero) asked whether I can review that decision, but it is important to point out that funding decisions are made by the Legal Aid Agency independently of Ministers. I am not privy to the details of the decision. The decision whether to provide legal aid funding in an individual case should not be a political one. It is solely for the director of the legal aid casework at the Legal Aid Agency to decide whether a case is within the regulations and the laws that Parliament has set. I was not aware of the reasons why legal aid was determined—that is a decision of the Legal Aid Agency independent of Ministers.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Meriden (Dame Caroline Spelman) and the hon. Member for Birmingham, Northfield made very important points at the beginning of the debate about the coroner having called for legal aid to be reinstated but, as I said, that is not a decision for me or for him—the decision on legal aid is a matter for the Legal Aid Agency.
Lucy Frazer
I am conscious of the time, so I would like to press on.
I will make two wider points about legal aid outside this case. First, legal aid is a fundamental pillar of access to justice. More than a fifth of the Ministry of Justice’s budget is spent on legal aid in England and Wales. The system was designed when it was implemented in 2012 to ensure that those who are most vulnerable and have no other means of funding support are provided with assistance. Those principles in generic terms are fair ones.
Secondly, we recognise that it is right to look at and review inquests more broadly. An inquest ought to be an inquisitorial process that focuses on establishing the facts of death and should not be adversarial. The presence of several lawyers at a hearing often adds to the distress and anxiety of the family, who feel, as was stated by many hon. Members, that there is an imbalance and unfair representation. With that in mind, the Ministry of Justice is undertaking and exploring a number of ways to make inquests less adversarial and more sympathetic to the needs of bereaved people. We are working with other Government Departments that are often represented at inquests, as well as the legal profession. We are looking at ways to reduce the number of lawyers, training for coroners and lawyers, extending support services, updating our written guidance and updating the legal guidance on deaths in custody, so that we ensure the starting presumption is that legal aid should always be available.
Many Members mentioned that we are reviewing legal aid for inquests in general. That review has started already. Experts are giving evidence, and there will be a public consultation. I encourage family members to give evidence to the public consultation if they wish to do so. I also encourage Members to respond. The hon. Members for North Antrim (Ian Paisley), for Birmingham, Yardley and for Strangford (Jim Shannon) made powerful points in relation to justice, and said that justice needs to be done. They put forward many arguments for why the families need support.
I recognise that getting the inquest right for the families is incredibly important. Families who have suffered dreadfully are entitled to justice. I thank the hon. Member for Birmingham, Northfield and all hon. Members who have spoken and contributed to this important debate.
Richard Burden
First, I express my appreciation to hon. Members from across the House who have given their support in the debate: my hon. Friends the Members for Birmingham, Yardley (Jess Phillips), for Birmingham, Selly Oak (Steve McCabe)—he could not stay for the entire debate but was here to give support—for Ealing North (Stephen Pound) and for Coventry South (Mr Cunningham); the right hon. Member for Meriden (Dame Caroline Spelman); the hon. Members for North Antrim (Ian Paisley) and for Strangford (Jim Shannon); and on the Front Bench for the Scottish National party, the hon. and learned Member for Edinburgh South West (Joanna Cherry); and for Labour, my hon. Friend the Member for Ashfield (Gloria De Piero). They all made powerful points.
I have to confess to being disappointed by the Minister’s response. She spent time discussing whether legal aid should be available and the circumstances in which it should be available for inquests. I think she was wrong in saying that any legal aid has been provided in this case—I do not think that a penny of legal aid has yet been paid—but she is right that legal aid has been granted for the inquest. The point that we are putting to her is that, if it is appropriate to provide legal aid for the families for the inquest, why does it become inappropriate to provide legal aid for those same families for an important point of law arising out of that inquest? It is simply illogical. I am afraid that the Minister did not answer that point.
The Minister says she cannot intervene in the Legal Aid Agency decision on whether legal aid can be granted, but has not said whether she feels it has discretion to come to a different decision.
Lucy Frazer
I am sorry if that was not clear. The reason that it can be granted in the first two circumstances is that the means test is discretionary and can be waived, but in a judicial review, it cannot.
Richard Burden
The Minister says that there is no discretion, and that the matter is being reviewed. I am glad that it is being reviewed, but frankly, this case will not wait. The families need a decision now. The decision that they have had from the Legal Aid Agency is not in the interests of justice. If there are no avenues through the regular legal aid system to provide them with the support that they deserve—support that the coroner himself says should be paid—in the interests of justice, either because the Legal Aid Agency does not have discretion or because it does not feel that the means test requirements have been met, the problem is still there. It therefore comes back to the Minister to say what she is going to do about that problem, which will not wait.
In the situation applying to the Hillsborough inquest, the Government eventually said that this was a matter of such fundamental public interest that a special fund should be made available to ensure that families have legal representation. We are simply saying that if that rightly applied in the Hillsborough case, it should also apply here. It is simply illogical that the families are denied equality of representation in the Court of Appeal, where representation is available to the coroner. That has to be put right. Only the Minister can do that, and I hope she reconsiders the points she has made today.
Question put and agreed to.
Resolved,
That this House has considered legal aid for families of the victims of the Birmingham pub bombings.
Court Closures and Reform
Lucy Frazer Excerpts(6 years, 8 months ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Lucy Frazer)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Gray. I congratulate the hon. Member for Slough (Mr Dhesi) on securing this debate. He made some important points about the justice system in general. I am grateful that he secured the debate, has raised those points and has given me an opportunity to respond.
I make one point at the outset. The hon. Gentleman talked about cuts. The reform programme is certainly not about cuts. As he mentioned, the Government are putting £1 billion into our court reform programme and every time a court closes, the money from the sale of that court goes straight back into our justice system—more particularly, our court system.
Like the hon. Gentleman, I would like to address the issue of justice in broader terms. We should start by asking ourselves a question in the context of the debate. What is justice, and how should it be administered? It is not necessarily about a court, a wig and a dock—it is much broader than that. It is not constrained by a particular location or a setting. It is about the fair determination of rights. Although a court of course plays an important part in the determination of those rights, we must also think about how in the modern world we can deliver better, fairer and more effective justice, which is why the Ministry of Justice has started to invest £1 billion in our justice system over the last few years.
We are upgrading our system so that it works better for everyone—judges, legal professionals, vulnerable victims, witnesses, litigants and defendants. We are modernising the system. The hon. Member for Slough asked what the evidence is of the advantage of technology, and I will answer that. The Civil Justice Review of the 1980s said that we needed to use computers to manage listing. Lord Woolf called for the use of technology in the 1990s. In 2015, the Civil Justice Council stated that online dispute resolution had the possibility and potential to bring forward advantages to our justice system, such as lower cost but also more access to justice. When the court reform Bill went before the House before the general election, a document on transforming justice was put together by the Lord Chief Justice and Lord Chancellor of the time and the Senior President of Tribunals. They all called for our justice system to be brought up to date using technology. They recognised that it would bring our system forward and that by doing so, we would need fewer court buildings. I was interested to hear my hon. Friend the Member for Moray (Douglas Ross) calling for more digitalisation in Scotland.
John Howell
Would the Minister accept that the move towards, for example, online courts has come not from judges but from potential litigants who would like to see that as an alternative?
Lucy Frazer
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. It is not only justices who are advocating online courts but people who use the system. We recently launched our online digital court process, through which people can make claims of up to £10,000. The pilot has been extremely successful.
That brings me on nicely to our other pilots. We are in the midst of upgrading our system in a variety of ways, in different courts and for different remedies that people need. It is now possible to apply for an uncontested divorce and for probate online. It is possible to make pleas for lower level offences, to respond to jury summonses and to issue and respond to civil money claims online. In the social security tribunal system, it is possible to track an appeal online and get mobile updates about the progress of a case. Those changes are making access to justice more efficient, quicker and, for many, much easier to use.
Thousands of people have already used those pilots and received straightforward digital access to justice for the first time, and the public feedback has been extremely positive. By providing services online, we are significantly improving the experience of those using the courts. We see that in the number of forms completed correctly. The rejection rate for paper divorce applications was 40% due to errors and omissions. Since the latest release of the online divorce service, the online rejection rate is now less than 1%.
The hon. Member for Bolton South East (Yasmin Qureshi) made some important points about vulnerable people. She is right that not everybody has a computer, uses the internet or is comfortable doing so. We are establishing a range of support channels, including telephone and face-to-face assistance, and we have worked closely with other Departments to ensure vulnerable people are protected. Our experience shows that the most vulnerable will still be able to access digital services. For example, in relation to our help with fees, the rejection rate stands at about 20% after the introduction of digital processes, compared with 75% for the paper version.
The hon. Lady also said that court can sometimes be intimidating. I said previously that we have social security updates for people going through the system on their mobile phone, and the feedback from that has been extremely positive. Someone said recently, “Courts, judges, decision all quite frightening. This completely calmed me down.” My hon. Friend the Member for Henley (John Howell) talked about the possibility of technology improving our court service—not only in the commercial court but elsewhere. It is right that we consider the possibilities for justice.
We are not just investing in digital. Since April 2015, we have spent £108 million on capital maintenance to improve our estate, including £2 million for refurbishments in Manchester Central, £1.5 million for rewiring and replacing windows in Preston and more than £1.5 million for a roof and lift replacements in Leeds Central.
Other hon. Members raised issues about court closures. We must recognise some important facts about the court and tribunal estate, which is underused. About 41% of courts and tribunals used less than half their available hearing capacity in financial year 2016-17, and much of that space is in poor condition. The hon. Member for Slough talked about Maidenhead. The court is underused and sat for less than one third of its available hours in the past financial year. It is in a poor state of affairs and requires a new roof and windows, generating a total maintenance backlog of more than £1 million.
Kevin Hollinrake
The Minister is making a very good point about buildings that need investment, but is she aware that Northallerton is in fantastic condition, having recently been refurbished, and that it has the best disabled access in North Yorkshire?
Lucy Frazer
I was coming to Northallerton, but as my hon. Friend raises it I will deal with it now. As always, he made some very valid and rational points in his speech, including about the need to keep our finances under control. We are doing that and must continue to do so. He also made some valid points about rural areas. I represent a rural area, and I understand his concerns. I am pleased to have met him and the police and crime commissioner for his area. There is a good service in Northallerton, but it is underused. An interesting fact that has recently come to light is that only 11% of cases held in Northallerton magistrates court actually come from the Northallerton area, so the court actually serves a much wider area. That is how our civil justice system operates.
It is important that when we are looking to close courts—of course, no decisions have yet been made about any of the courts that are under consultation—we need to ensure that the technology we are talking about is operative so people still have access to justice.
Mr Marcus Jones (Nuneaton) (Con)
Should we not thank lay magistrates and justices of the peace who support our magistrates courts across the country for very little recompense, other than the satisfaction of contributing towards society? When court reorganisations take place, should we not consult magistrates to ensure we get the best outcome for local people?
Lucy Frazer
My hon. Friend makes a very important point. Magistrates voluntarily make a significant contribution to our justice system. I recently met the Magistrates Association, which does incredibly important work, and I will continue to engage with it. I met a number of magistrates in my constituency. This is not just about them; there are also volunteer legal professionals and victim liaison and support workers. A lot of people do pro bono work. The justice system relies on the voluntary work of a lot of people in our communities.
It is important that we ensure witnesses can get to court. Our use of video technology means that people do not necessarily have to go to court at all. Therefore their journeys are non-existent, rather than increased.
The hon. Member for Slough asked whether court staff should be invited to respond to the consultation. They have been, and we welcome any responses to it.
I am pleased that the hon. Member for Cambridge (Daniel Zeichner) acknowledged that justice is changing, and that we need to adapt to that. His points have been heard and will be passed on.
The hon. Member for Slough talked about the principles we should think about when we close a court. That is why, alongside the consultation on the eight courts, we opened the consultation “Fit for the future: transforming the court and tribunal estate”, which sets out our strategy for the wider reform of our court system and underlines principles that should be considered. People can have input into it as we go forward.
It is important that we have a sensible, proper debate about how we spend our money in the court system. We have consolidated our court and tribunal estate since 2016, and we have put the money from those surpluses into our court estate, and we will continue to do so. I am grateful to have had the opportunity to debate this important topic. The Government are investing to transform the service provided by our courts and tribunals so we continue to deliver an effective and fair justice system that serves all users whenever they need it.