New Stations Fund

Lord McLoughlin Excerpts

Thursday 24th January 2013 Written Statements

[The Secretary of State for Transport (Mr Patrick McLoughlin)]

I am pleased to inform the House that Network Rail is launching today the new stations fund, which will help towards the capital cost of opening brand new railway stations in England and Wales.

This fund will provide up to £20 million of additional funding to projects which are ready to be brought quickly into use for the benefit of passengers and the economy.

The Government are committed to improving the railways. Opening new stations can provide a boost to the economy and deliver longer-term benefits through improved access to the rail network and better connectivity for passengers.

Proposed new stations must already be at an advanced stage of development and be supported by the local authority, train operating companies and Network Rail. The £20 million fund will contribute towards the cost of scheme construction but bidders must also have available a portion of funding towards the project themselves.

Applications for funds will be assessed by a cross-industry panel. Because this fund is designed to support station proposals which are already well developed, we expect bids to be received by the end of February 2013 with a recommendation from the panel before the end of March 2013.

Oral Answers to Questions

Lord McLoughlin Excerpts

Thursday 17th January 2013 Commons Chamber

[Heidi Alexander (Lewisham East) (Lab)]

1. What the maximum regulated rail fare rise was in January 2013.

[The Secretary of State for Transport (Mr Patrick McLoughlin)]

The average increase in regulated fares was 4.2%. An extremely small number of fares will have risen by 9.2%, but those will have been offset by reductions elsewhere. The “5% flex” policy was introduced by the previous Government.

[Heidi Alexander]

Commuters using Hither Green station in my constituency have seen their annual season ticket rise in the past two years from £856 to £944, yet overcrowding on routes into London remains horrendous. What guarantee can the Secretary of State give my constituents that this time next year overcrowding will be less and that there will not be huge profits going to train operating companies?

[Mr McLoughlin]

One of the problems we face is that there is a huge demand and we have seen huge increases in the number of people using the railways. Matching that, the Government are pulling in huge investment. We have set out our plans for 2014 to 2019, as has Network Rail, which published its plans last week. I understand the concerns of the hon. Lady’s constituents, but I have to say that a lot of work needs to be done on investment.

[Sir Alan Haselhurst (Saffron Walden) (Con)]

If I am pressing my right hon. Friend, as indeed I am, to invest more in track capacity on the West Anglia line and to ensure that there is a purchase of new rolling stock soon, do I assist my constituents if at the same time on their behalf I ask him to peg fares, or even reduce them?

[Mr McLoughlin]

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend. I met him this week and he made the case very strongly for extra and faster capacity for his constituents in the feed-in to Liverpool Street. He highlights the exact dilemma: people want extra investment and it has to be paid for. The Government are prepared to subsidise the railways and are doing so, but the passenger also has to pay for extra capacity and new trains.

[Tom Greatrex (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Lab/Co-op)]

Many of my constituents, whether they are using local or cross-border services on the west coast main line, are frequently confused by the times at which they can use their tickets. Would it not be a sensible step to print on the tickets the precise time when they can be used, so that we end confusion and people do not end up paying fines?

[Mr McLoughlin]

In some cases, those times are printed on pre-booked tickets. We are conducting a fares review, and I would like to see a much simpler ticket operating system so that people understand the fares they are being charged. The review is due to report in May, and that is one of the points I am looking at.

[Sir Roger Gale (North Thanet) (Con)]

The franchise agreement imposed by the previous Labour Government has meant that my constituents travelling from North Thanet have faced year-on-year increases way and above the average level. It now costs a huge sum of money to travel to London from Kent. It is an appalling service. Will my right hon. Friend seek to ensure that Railtrack and Southeastern now deliver what my constituents are paying for?

[Mr McLoughlin]

I have met with my hon. Friend to discuss the service in his constituency and in the rest of Kent. He has made a number of points that I will be discussing with Network Rail in due course.

[Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab)]

Very straightforward: will the Secretary of State categorically rule out “super peak” fares? A simple answer will do: yes or no.

[Mr McLoughlin]

As I said, the Department is undertaking a review of fares. That is not to look at a way of making fares more expensive, but to ensure that people understand how fares are delivered.

[Mr Ben Bradshaw (Exeter) (Lab)]

2. What discussions he has had with Network Rail on improving the flood resilience of the south-west rail network.

[The Secretary of State for Transport (Mr Patrick McLoughlin)]

I had a number of conversations with Network Rail throughout December about improving the flood resilience of the south-west rail network. I also visited works on the west coast main line on new year’s eve, where I was able to discuss the issue in person with David Higgins, Network Rail’s chief executive.

[Mr Bradshaw]

I thank the Secretary of State for that reply. Between the end of November and the end of December, Devon and Cornwall were effectively cut off from the rest of the country by rail for two periods lasting more than a week each. That is not acceptable for rail travellers or our economy. Will he impress on Network Rail the absolutely urgency of tackling the problem at Cowley bridge in Exeter, which is the cause of most of the problems?

[Mr McLoughlin]

The situation that people in the south-west faced over that period was unacceptable. It was the result of weather that we do not see often. I have talked to many Members who have made representations to me on that, and I have asked Network Rail to give a briefing to Members from those areas. That will take place in early February, and I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will attend.

[Neil Parish (Tiverton and Honiton) (Con)]

Further to the point by the right hon. Member for Exeter (Mr Bradshaw), the Tiverton to Exeter line is extremely low and will be affected by flooding not only this year, but in future years. A substantial job needs to be done on that particular track of rail, so I urge the Secretary of State to do as much as he can to get Network Rail to put a package in place.

[Mr McLoughlin]

I accept what my hon. Friend says and I hope that he will come to the meeting I am organising with Network Rail, which I will also attend. I am trying to break it into regions in the parts of the area served so that Members can discuss their concerns directly with Network Rail.

[Mr Adrian Sanders (Torbay) (LD)]

There are two other important areas within the south-west that raise potential problems for the resilience of rail services. One is the rail line between Exeter and Honiton, which also floods, but most crucially there is the coastal route between Exeter and Newton Abbot, which for decades has required a great deal of maintenance. We want certainty about the future of the resilience of our rail services in the south-west.

[Mr McLoughlin]

The Under-Secretary of State for Transport, my hon. Friend the Member for Lewes (Norman Baker), and I are aware of the problems affecting the hon. Gentleman’s constituents and the area he represents. As I said, at the meeting with Network Rail, we will be able to discuss in detail all the problems that Members are facing and—I hope—come to some solutions.

[Mr David Crausby (Bolton North East) (Lab)]

3. What his latest estimate is of the cost to the public purse of cancelling the award of the west coast main line franchise; and if he will make a statement.

[The Secretary of State for Transport (Mr Patrick McLoughlin)]

I have stated that bidders will be remunerated in full for the reasonable costs of putting together and submitting their bids. As I reported to the Transport Committee on 10 January, I expect that figure to be in the region of £45 million.

[Mr Crausby]

I come from the world of industrial manufacturing, where incompetent mistakes get someone the sack. It occurs to me that in this Government no one gets the blame, while hard-working, travelling members of the public pay the price for the mistake through higher rail fares. Will the Secretary of State tell me exactly which Minister, if any, will take responsibility for his Government’s humiliation in this affair?

[Mr McLoughlin]

I think I have been very open with the House. I have made two or three statements to it about the incident involving the west coast main line, and I have commissioned two reports that have broadly been welcomed, I think, by the House. Both those who wrote the reports have given evidence to the Transport Committee, during which, Sam Laidlaw, who wrote the report on what went wrong in the Department, said that Ministers were not made aware.

[Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con)]

I thank the Secretary of State for being so open with the House about this matter. It is an issue not just about the cost to the public purse, but about the potential for franchises to be delayed. In my constituency in Deal, we want a hard-won commuting high-speed service to be made an all-day high-speed service. Will he tell us what the impact of the delay might be?

[Mr McLoughlin]

As I said, two reports were conducted, one by Sam Laidlaw and the other by Richard Brown. I published the latter last week, and in the near future will make a statement to the House about how I intend to implement Mr Brown’s recommendations.

[Mr Speaker]

As the Clerk has very originally observed, the Secretary of State has brought the matter back on track. We are grateful to him.

[Maria Eagle (Garston and Halewood) (Lab)]

The Laidlaw report is clear about where the blame lies for the west coast franchise fiasco—it was Ministers who decided to carry out a botched reorganisation of the Department that left no one in charge of rail, cut one third of the Department’s staff and axed external audits of procurement. Is it not a disgrace that with the well over £45 million of taxpayers’ money that the Secretary of State admits down the drain, every single one of those responsible Ministers is either still in the Cabinet or has been promoted to it?

[Mr McLoughlin]

There are many ways in which one can read the report. The hon. Lady means to put her interpretation on it, and whatever I say will not change that interpretation. It is quite clear in the report that Ministers were not made aware of some of the problems, and if they had been referred up, different actions could have been taken.

[Maria Eagle]

If the Secretary of State will not accept what Laidlaw says about ministerial responsibility, perhaps he will accept the verdict of the Brown review, which is also clear about where the blame lies. It was the mistaken decision by Ministers to move to longer franchises as the rule, not the exception, and experiment with this risky new policy on the most complex franchise route. Instead of repeatedly blaming civil servants, who cannot answer back, when will Ministers finally take responsibility for this staggering waste of taxpayers’ money?

[Mr McLoughlin]

I think I have been very open with the House, and I have also commissioned inquiries. Initially the hon. Lady questioned their independence. I am glad that she is now happy to abide by those reports, which were clear that, had Ministers been warned, different actions could have been taken, which is exactly what the permanent secretary said before the Select Committee on Transport.

[Chris Williamson (Derby North) (Lab)]

4. What recent progress he has made on the Thameslink and Crossrail rolling stock contracts; and if he will make a statement.

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[Stephen Mosley (City of Chester) (Con)]

8. What recent progress his Department has made on securing an operator for the west coast main line franchise.

[The Secretary of State for Transport (Mr Patrick McLoughlin)]

Since the cancellation of the west coast competition, the Department has negotiated an agreement for Virgin Trains to continue running the service for up to 23 months until November 2014. This will be followed by a long-term contract.

[Stephen Mosley]

My right hon. Friend will be pleased to hear from a regular west coast main line user that, so far, the interim service seems to be of high reliability and quality. During the original bidding process, both Virgin and First Group promised substantial longer-term improvements to the west coast main line service. Will the Secretary of State encourage future bidders to be similarly ambitious?

[Mr McLoughlin]

I assure my hon. Friend that I am grateful for his update on the service he is receiving and pleased to hear about the satisfaction he and his constituents are getting from it. We are always looking for improvements. I hope that when we come to negotiate the next longer-term contracts, a number of improvements will be included in them, but I also hope to see some improvement on this particular line before 2014.

[Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab)]

What lessons will the Secretary of State apply to the west coast franchise from the experience of the not-for-profit east coast main line, not least in respect of the return of a £190 million dividend to taxpayers?

[Mr McLoughlin]

I am always looking to learn lessons from everything that happens on the railways. I believe that the private sector has brought tremendous growth of passenger numbers and improvements in services on the railways. Like the last Government, I am committed to seeing the east coast main line offered to franchise as well.

[Eric Ollerenshaw (Lancaster and Fleetwood) (Con)]

9. What steps he is taking to accelerate major road-building projects.

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[Mr Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op)]

T1. If he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities.

[The Secretary of State for Transport (Mr Patrick McLoughlin)]

May I take this opportunity to thank the emergency services who responded so professionally to yesterday’s helicopter crash in London, in which, sadly, two people lost their lives? The Air Accidents Investigation Branch is continuing its investigation, and I will keep the House updated on its findings.

Since I last addressed the House at Transport questions, I have published the Richard Brown independent review into franchising, which concluded that it remains a fundamentally sound model. I will make further statements on rail franchising in due course. Over the Christmas period I also announced details of a new £170 million local authority pinch point fund, targeting the most congested points on local roads, as well as the allocation of an extra £215 million to councils to maintain roads.

[Mr Thomas]

The cost of travelling by train and tube from the suburbs of London into central London—for example, from West Harrow in my constituency to Westminster—has increased by 25% in the last two years alone. What discussions do Ministers plan to have with the Mayor of London about ameliorating the impact of high fare rises on those whose budgets are already squeezed?

[Mr McLoughlin]

The current fare regime and price increases are exactly the same as those under the last Government, and I do not remember him complaining about them then.

[David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con)]

T4. The new Mersey Gateway bridge will be tolled, with the risk of significant extra traffic through Warrington. The inspector at the planning inquiry stated the toll should be set no higher than that of the nearby Birkenhead tunnel. Will the Secretary of State confirm that in any evaluation of a change to the tunnel toll, he will also look at the situation of the bridge and of Warrington?

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[Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab)]

If Britain is to see a substantial modal shift of freight from road to rail, it is vital to construct dedicated rail freight capacity capable of carrying full-sized lorry trailers on trains. Will the Government give serious consideration to practical schemes to provide such capacity?

[Mr McLoughlin]

I will always look at practical schemes that come forward. I am pleased to say that the amount of freight being carried on the railways has dramatically increased, and I very much hope that our plans in the near future will show that we want it to increase even further.

[Mr Charles Kennedy (Ross, Skye and Lochaber) (LD)]

The Minister is aware of my concern about the apparent reinterpretation by the Scottish Government and Transport Scotland of the very welcome £50 million that the UK Government announced in their 2011 autumn statement for sleeper refurbishment. Will the Minister comment on his understanding of the position, and could we perhaps discuss it later in a meeting, not least in the context of the new Caledonian sleeper franchise?

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[Mrs Cheryl Gillan (Chesham and Amersham) (Con)]

To what extent does the Secretary of State plan to rely on private sector money to fund HS2? Have the Government approached or received any expressions of interest from potential funders, including any foreign sovereign wealth funds?

[Mr McLoughlin]

First and foremost, I want to get the Bill for HS2 through the House. We will make further announcements on HS2 in the near future.

[Mrs Linda Riordan (Halifax) (Lab/Co-op)]

Will the Secretary of State outline when the Caldervale line that runs through my constituency will get new rolling stock to replace the current Pacer units, which are unpopular, uncomfortable and outdated?

[Mr McLoughlin]

I promise the hon. Lady that I will write to her, bearing in mind the concerns she has just expressed.

[Tim Farron (Westmorland and Lonsdale) (LD)]

Electrification of the Lakes line from Oxenholme to Windermere would probably be the least expensive and most straightforward electrification project in the network. It would also provide a massive boost for the £3 billion tourism economy in Cumbria. Will the Minister meet me, rail operators and rail users to take forward this project?

Rail Franchising

Lord McLoughlin Excerpts

Thursday 10th January 2013 Written Statements

[The Secretary of State for Transport (Mr Patrick McLoughlin)]

When I took the decision last October to cancel the competition for the inter-city west coast rail franchise and to put the wider franchising process on hold, I commissioned two independent reviews.

I am today laying before the House the second of these, by Richard Brown, the chairman of Eurostar and a highly respected industry figure. His report sets out his recommendations on how best to get the franchising programme back on course. I welcome this report, and am grateful to Mr Brown and his team for their swift and thorough consideration of the issues.

Mr Brown concludes that franchising is a fundamentally sound approach for securing the passenger railway services on which so many people rely. He has identified a number of detailed recommendations for improving the way that franchises are specified and franchise competitions are run. The issues he has identified deserve, and will get, very careful consideration. His recommendations include:

that the franchising programme should be restarted as soon as possible, but at a pace that both the Department and the industry can sustain;

that franchise term should be determined by the circumstances and size of each individual franchise;

proposals to strengthen and simplify the bidding and evaluation process for each franchise;

proposals for the financial and contractual structure of future franchises, including in relation to risk allocation and capital requirements; and

that the Government should plan to devolve responsibility for further English franchises to the relevant authorities.

Mr Brown also makes recommendations on how to strengthen my Department’s capability to manage the future franchising programme, echoing the findings of Sam Laidlaw’s independent inquiry into the lessons to be learnt from the inter-city west coast competition. My Department has already published a response to Mr Laidlaw’s report, setting out a series of actions that will allow it to resume the franchising programme, with the confidence of the rail industry, as soon as possible. The permanent secretary has now appointed a single director-general with responsibility for rail, including franchising.

The review recommends that the Government should determine, by February, our plans for the three franchise competitions which I put on hold last October. I accept that recommendation, and I will update the House when I have determined those plans.

Until then, however, I consider that it would be inappropriate to publish Mr Brown’s specific recommendations about these three franchise competitions because of their stock market sensitivity, and so I have redacted the relevant paragraphs from the version of the report I have published today. I will publish the redacted paragraphs once I have decided the way forward for those three competitions.

Mr Brown also recommends that we should set out a clear programme for future franchise competitions. I will do so in the spring, alongside a further statement of the Government’s rail franchising policy in the light of Mr Brown’s recommendations and the Transport Select Committee’s “Rail 2020” report.

Rising Cost of Transport

Lord McLoughlin Excerpts

Wednesday 9th January 2013 Commons Chamber

[Maria Eagle]

I want to make a little progress, but I might allow the hon. Gentleman to intervene a little later.

The pain is not over yet. This year is set to see even greater pressures from the rising cost of transport as the Government unveil their rail fares and ticketing review, with proposals for even higher fares at the times when most people need to travel. Ministers are to reform bus funding in a way that, deliberately it would seem, will penalise transport authorities that seek to regulate bus fares in the way they are regulated in London.

In contrast, as we set out in our motion, Labour would be taking steps now to ease the pressure on those who rely on our public transport system, standing up to the train and bus companies on behalf of commuters. We would be on the side of passengers, not vested interests.

Last September this House debated rail fares, and to the frustration of commuters—and many on the Government Benches, judging from what they told their local papers—the Prime Minister marched his MPs through the Lobby to oppose Labour’s motion to cap fare rises at 1% above inflation. Of course, Liberal Democrat MPs were marching alongside them. Yet within a month of Tory and Liberal Democrat MPs voting down Labour’s attempt to help commuters, we had a U-turn. On the eve of his party conference, the Prime Minister finally said that he agreed with Labour, and pledged to cap the annual fare rise at 1% above inflation. As commuters found when they returned to work this month, however, that was yet another broken promise from this Prime Minister and this Government, because fares were capped not at 1% above inflation, but at 9.2%. The reason the Prime Minister could not honour his pledge to commuters is clear: he was simply unable or unwilling to stand up to the vested interests in the private train companies. They had lobbied hard before the last election to get an agreement that the Conservative party would give back to them a power that had been taken away by the Labour Government when times got tough—the right to turn the annual cap on fare rises into an average, turning a cap of 1% above inflation into fare rises of as much as 9.2%.

[The Secretary of State for Transport (Mr Patrick McLoughlin)]

I am surprised by what the hon. Lady says. She said that the previous Labour Government took that power away from the train operators when times got tough. Will she confirm that times got tough in 2010, which coincided with a general election?

[Maria Eagle]

No. There was a rule change that would have applied each and every year after the decision was made. Lord Adonis, who was in post at the time as Transport Secretary, took that decision and had been absolutely clear about it. If anybody in the House doubts that, they can read the Select Committee on Transport report on rail fares and franchises, published in July 2009. Lord Adonis told the Committee:

“The Government's intention is, therefore, that in future the cap should apply to individual regulated fares, not just to the average of each fares basket.”

He did not say “for one year” but “in future.” As Lord Adonis reaffirmed last year, when the issue came up:

“It was my firm intention to continue the policy for subsequent years, and I was mystified when…my successor”—

that is, the right hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge (Mr Hammond)—

“reinstated the fares flexibility. The only people who supported this change were the train companies.”

I do not therefore accept that the cap was a one-off or that it would not have continued into the future under a Labour Government.

How have the Government reacted? The Under-Secretary of State for Transport, the hon. Member for Lewes (Norman Baker), told passengers to stop complaining because fares are

“not nearly as expensive as is being presented”,

and then told peak-time commuters that they were paying for a premium service. I assure the Under-Secretary that many passengers do not feel that that describes their experience in getting to work in the morning on an overcrowded train. They do not agree with him that fares are not expensive.

Meanwhile, it was revealed that the hon. Gentleman’s colleague, the Minister of State, Department for Transport, the right hon. Member for Chelmsford (Mr Burns), was avoiding taking the train altogether, and had a chauffeur bill to and from his constituency—a commute that would take just half an hour by train on a season ticket that would cost taxpayers not £80,000 a year but £4,500 a year. Transport Ministers—

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[The Secretary of State for Transport (Mr Patrick McLoughlin)]

I start on a bipartisan note by joining the hon. Member for Garston and Halewood (Maria Eagle) in wishing her colleague the hon. Member for Barrow and Furness (John Woodcock), whom I see in his place, a speedy recovery and return to the Front Bench. We all wish him well and understand why he has taken the decision that he has in the short term.

I could not help but think that the hon. Member for Garston and Halewood and myself must have lived in different countries. From listening to her speech, it was almost as if there had been utopia until the general election, with everything fine and wonderful and the train companies bowing to the wishes of the Government and always doing what was right by consumers and the Government. Then I read a few Select Committee reports from the last Parliament to put me on the right track. I could not help but be struck by a report of the Transport Committee from 2006, when it had a Labour majority and a Labour Chairman. It stated:

“Both the Department for Transport and the train operating companies quoted growth and the fact that ‘the UK has the fastest-growing rail patronage in Europe’ as reasons not to be overly concerned about price levels. Indeed, the Government demonstrated breathtaking complacency”

about fares and ticketing. The hon. Lady should not imagine that the problem of fare rises is new. She said that there was no recession then, but we were about to go into one of the biggest recessions that this country has ever suffered. I will come to that a little later, but I am conscious of time—although you did not tell me to be brief, Mr Deputy Speaker, I am aware of the fact that you said there will be a time limit on speeches. I will try to be a lot briefer than the shadow Secretary of State was in her 30-minute opening speech.

I am afraid that a lot of what the hon. Lady said was a mixture of the ill informed and the inaccurate. The motion does nothing to help passengers or investment, and it says all that we need to know about the Labour party. Let us be plain about some of the facts, which might help the Opposition. The motion calls on the Government to cap regulated fares at 1% above inflation. We have. It was the last Government who planned for 70% of costs to be met by fare payers in 2013 and 2014, which would mean fares rising this year not by 1% above inflation but by double that. The fare rises are lower than they would have been under Labour’s plans. That would have been an additional tax on hard-working commuters that we have not been prepared to impose.

I do agree with the shadow Secretary of State on some things. She has said that

“we should reduce the public subsidy to the rail industry”.—[Official Report, 19 May 2011; Vol. 528, c. 522.]

I agree. She has also said that if she were running the Department’s budget now,

“we would have to make difficult and painful decisions in respect of cutting the deficit”.

Indeed, and Labour did make some of those difficult decisions. She talked about ticket office opening hours, and it is a fact that in the last five years of the Labour Government, Ministers approved cuts in opening hours at approximately 300 stations. Now the Opposition seem to think that that is wholly wrong, but they were only too aware of the need for it when they were in government.

I agree with the hon. Lady, too, that it is right that we have a record level of investment in our railways at the moment, and that railway passengers have to contribute to that as well as the taxpayer. We have more trains and better services and we are delivering new lines. We are also delivering for passengers by capping the average increase in regulated fares at RPI plus 1% not just this year but last year and next.

[Mrs Cheryl Gillan (Chesham and Amersham) (Con)]

I note that my right hon. Friend and his fellow Ministers have a long-term aim of reducing the cost of railways to both passengers and taxpayers, and therefore ending the era of the above-inflation rail fare increase. Will he therefore reassure me that he will not look to the taxpayer and the fare-paying passenger to bear the £33 billion cost of his plans for the High Speed 2 railway?

[Mr McLoughlin]

I am grateful to reaffirm to my right hon. Friend the Government’s commitment to adopt what was Lord Adonis’s plan for HS2, and I pay tribute to the former Secretary of State. My right hon. Friend and I disagree on HS2. I believe that it is vital for future investment and opportunities for the whole country. I will say more about that in the House in a few weeks’ time.

[David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con)]

Will my right hon. Friend also mention the rise in transport costs for users of the Severn bridge and say whether there is any possibility of capping those increases when the bridge returns to public ownership in 2017-18?

[Mr McLoughlin]

If I am still Secretary of State in 2017, I will have been the longest serving Transport Secretary. If my hon. Friend will forgive me, I have enough problems on my plate without making commitments for 2017. I look forward, however, to a Conservative Government making that decision—that is as far as I will go towards meeting that commitment at the moment.

The fact that we have capped fares to RPI plus 1% will benefit more than a quarter of a million annual season ticket holders by around £45 a year, and some commuters will be more than £200 better off over the two years. The motion before the House is confused in another way. It attacks the flexibility that allows operators to increase some regulated fares by more than RPI plus 1% if they cut other fares by an equal amount—for example, on Virgin Trains the Rugby to Euston season ticket has increased by almost 1% less than inflation. Today, the hon. Member for Garston and Halewood tried to claim that it was not the last Government who introduced that flexibility, or that such flexibility existed for more than one year. The changes to the agreement, which I can read to her, make it clear. The deed of amendment states:

“With effect from 00.00 on 1 January 2010 Schedule 5.5 of the Franchise Agreement will be amended as set out in the Appendix to the Deed…From 00.00 on 1 January 2011”.

Therefore, the agreement was amended for just one year.

[Maria Eagle]

Is the Secretary of State saying that Lord Adonis, whom he just praised, misled the Transport Committee when he said that he intended the agreement to go into the future and that it was a permanent change? Does he realise—he will find it out in 2014—that the year before an election, the limits of how far into the future one can go in the time of one’s successors are set by Whitehall and are different from those for the beginning of a Parliament?

[Mr McLoughlin]

I am not accusing the noble Lord of misleading anybody; I am informing the House of what he did as Secretary of State. He may have wished his changes to last longer, but they did not and were solely for that one year. Indeed, when the 5% flexibility was introduced in 2004 it led to some increases of 11% under the previous Labour Government in 2009 alone. That flexibility was suspended for one year—an election year.

However, that is not Labour policy now. How do we know? Well, let us look at Wales where this year under the Labour devolved Administration fares went up by RPI plus 1%, with flexibility of 5%.

[Henry Smith]

My right hon. Friend is right. Labour says it has changed its policy on fare flexibility, but in Wales, where it is in charge of the devolved Administration, it has agreed flexibility of up to 5% on train fares.

[Mr McLoughlin]

Indeed; I am grateful to my hon. Friend. I hope no Welsh Labour MPs support the motion tabled by the shadow Secretary of State. If they do, not only will they back up my argument that we are having a synthetic debate introduced by an Opposition who have synthetic policies on transport costs, but they will not mean what they say. When Labour is in a position to change the rules, it does not do so. In Wales, it has accepted the flexibility it believes it needs to provide a proper service; the Labour Government in Wales have acted in exactly the same way as the UK Government.

[Richard Burden (Birmingham, Northfield) (Lab)]

Will the Secretary of State give way?

[Mr McLoughlin]

I will, but unfortunately Birmingham is a few miles away from Wales.

[Richard Burden]

Indeed it is. The Secretary of State says that the debate is synthetic, but the anger of my constituents and many others at the performance of London Midland in the past year is not synthetic. He has recently dumped the deal with London Midland. The good news is that that provides some pre-concessions to passengers, but it is also said that he has not actioned a break clause in the contract. That could have happened at the end of this year, but it has been extended to 2015. It is also unclear what milestones and review mechanisms will be in place to hold London Midland to its word. Will he clarify whether his measures give London Midland more of a free rein or whether he will introduce a measure that forces it to do what it says it will do?

[Mr McLoughlin]

The Under-Secretary of State for Transport, my hon. Friend the Member for Lewes (Norman Baker), has made a statement on that, in which he also outlined some of the requirements we expect of London Midland. He and I will be watching the performance of that franchise very carefully. It is important that we give passengers the service they rightly expect and demand. We have put in place a number of measures that will cost London Midland considerable money to put into operation, and I expect it to do so.

I am conscious of the time—time moves on when I am continually trying to help colleagues to understand where their policies have gone wrong in the past. We are looking at ways to improve our railway services. As I have said, the Labour party, which is in control in Wales, has kept exactly the same flexibility on rail fares that the UK Government have retained.

In 10 years, the Labour Government electrified only 10 miles of railways; this Government will electrify 850 miles, including the midland main line, for which my hon. Friend the Member for Loughborough (Nicky Morgan), the Whip, who is sitting on the Front Bench, has campaigned so hard.

[Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab)]

Will the Secretary of State give way?

[Mr McLoughlin]

I will give way only briefly, because I am conscious of the time.

[Julie Hilling]

Does the right hon. Gentleman remember the amount of money the Labour Government had to put into the railway to rebuild it after 18 years of no investment under the previous Tory Administration?

[Mr McLoughlin]

The hon. Lady is a sadly missed member of the Transport Committee, and was there when I first appeared before it. She should be careful, however, because she was probably a member of the Committee during its inquiry on “Rail 2020”, which quite clearly shows that the worst year for subsidising the railways was 2000-01. I cannot remember what party was in government at that time, but it is true that investment went up afterwards—[Interruption.] She is looking for the page number. Page 9 simply and straightforwardly sets out the record.

[Julie Hilling]

Will the Secretary of State give way?

[Mr McLoughlin]

I must press on. I am sorry I cannot give way to the hon. Lady. The facts I have pointed out are in the report. I will try to make progress and give other hon. Members the chance to contribute to the debate.

We are putting record investment into the railways. In the 19th century, our railway was a symbol of Britain’s innovation—including London’s underground, the first anywhere and 150 years old today. Now, the railway is experiencing an extraordinary renaissance. Last year, the number of passenger miles travelled was almost 50% higher than it was in 2000. More people are travelling by rail today than at any time since the 1920s, and rail freight has grown by more than 60% since privatisation. We have soaring demand, but limited space. Regular passengers on busy lines know only too well what that can mean—overcrowded carriages and uncomfortable journeys. That is not good enough and we are going to sort it out.

In July, we announced £16 billion of funding for the network between 2014 and 2019. Inter-city travellers will benefit from the completion of the northern hub in Manchester, a £240 million investment on the east coast main line and a further £300 million for high-value, small-scale schemes in other parts of the country. We approved a £4.5 billion contract to build a new generation of inter-city trains in County Durham, creating some 900 jobs, and we are procuring thousands of new carriages for Crossrail and Thameslink. We are also getting cracking with HS2, the biggest new transport scheme since the building of the motorways. Meeting demand, however, is only part of the problem.

While the previous Government blew the budget, the railway was allowed to grow wasteful—up to 40% more expensive to run than those of our European competitors. We have therefore had to take a hard look at the industry and have a rail reform programme to tackle the £3.5 billion annual efficiency gap identified by the McNulty report in his rail value-for-money study. Already, major savings are being found. Ultimately, this focus on efficiency will help us to deliver our goal and put an end to above-inflation fare increases at the earliest opportunity. A railway that is efficient and modern is a railway that is affordable to use.

[Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab)]

May I ask the Secretary of State whether, in his drive for efficiency and savings, he can give assurances to the steel industry that it will not be penalised by rail freight charges?

[Mr McLoughlin]

I will look at the hon. Lady’s point, but I hope she will make representations to the Welsh Assembly following the motion that the hon. Member for Garston and Halewood has tabled. Perhaps the hon. Member for Llanelli (Nia Griffith) will consider not voting for the motion in light of it being in direct competition to what the Welsh Assembly, which I understand is Labour controlled, is doing.

[Bridget Phillipson (Houghton and Sunderland South) (Lab)]

I am conscious that the Secretary of State has not yet referred to bus services. My constituents rely entirely on bus services, as they do not have the luxury of a rail link. Does he agree that it is entirely wrong for operators such as Stagecoach to scaremonger about the introduction of quality contracts in Tyne and Wear and to threaten to sack staff and pull out of the region? Should the Government not back up integrated transport authorities, such as mine, which are making decisions that are in the best interests of local people?

[Mr McLoughlin]

I am coming on to say something about bus companies, but I will not comment on individual contracts that are being negotiated, as it would be wholly wrong of me to do so.

I want passengers to get the best deal from a ticket system that is easy to understand, and that is why we have set up the fare and ticketing review. This is not about higher fares; it is about simpler fares. It is not about catching out passengers who have to travel when trains are busiest, but getting good deals for people when there are seats to spare. Taxpayers, whether they use trains or not, all contribute to the cost of running the railway. I know that when people face big bills and tough times they really feel the pressure of higher fares. That is why we are looking at ideas such as smart ticketing and more flexible season tickets, so that they only have to pay when they actually need to travel. The way we work is changing and it is right that tickets change too.

This Government are on the side of passengers, whether they use trains or buses. That is why we have protected free bus travel for pensioners and are putting in place a level playing field so that operators can compete to bring fares down. The basic truth, however, is that the cost of bus travel has risen, including during the decade to 2010 under the Labour Government, and that is mainly due to higher operator costs, such as fuel.

[Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab)]

Will the Secretary of State give way?

[Mr McLoughlin]

I am sorry, but I must make some progress.

From the first day of the coalition Government, our priority has been to tackle the deficit that we inherited, to rebalance our economy, to get people back to work and to boost growth. Transport plays a key part in that process. This Government have capped fare rises. We are getting the investment in, tackling overcrowding, increasing seats and services, and delivering High Speed 2. It is the right deal for passengers and the right deal for Britain’s future.

[Mr Speaker]

There is a six-minute limit on Back-Bench speeches, and it applies with immediate effect.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jim Fitzpatrick (Poplar and Limehouse) (Lab)]

Happy new year, Madam Deputy Speaker. I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Garston and Halewood (Maria Eagle) for inviting me to deliver the winding-up speech for the Opposition. That was especially generous given yesterday’s front page on the “ConservativeHome” website and a lead article written by someone appropriately called Harry Phibbs—it was not spelled Fibs, although I am not sure what kind of future he thinks he has in politics. Mr Phibbs writes about a dozen politicians who he says should defect to the Conservatives, and he names me along with some other distinguished colleagues, including the former Transport Secretary, Lord Adonis, and my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow South (Mr Harris). I am grateful that the shadow Secretary of State trusts me with this winding-up speech in the face of such provocation.

I understand Mr Phibbs’s confusion, because in the 21st century, party lines can blur on some issues, of which equal marriage and Europe are good examples. On transport, however, and the motion before the House, nothing could be clearer: as my hon. Friend the Member for Garston and Halewood laid out when opening the debate, bus fares are up twice the rate of inflation, services are disappearing and a prime ministerial promise of capping rail fares at 1% above inflation has been broken. Fares are increasing not by 4.3%—1% above inflation—but by 9.2%, and even worse, Government documents propose super-peak tickets that will cost even more. There are no problems with party lines on this issue. People are either with the vested interests—the train operating companies and the Government—or with hard-pressed commuters, the Transport Committee and the Opposition motion on the Order Paper. I will return to those issues shortly.

The Secretary of State generously joined the shadow Secretary of State’s tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Barrow and Furness (John Woodcock), and—quite correctly—that was well greeted across the House. The Secretary of State has had difficult times during his short tenure. He is regarded as a honourable man but he has been picking up the pieces of the west coast main line franchise fiasco and the Davies commission signalled a Government U-turn—well, certainly a Conservative U-turn—on aviation policy in 2015. My hon. Friend the Member for Garston and Halewood is not the only Member critical of the delay in the announcement by the Davies commission, and she is joined by Mayor Boris Johnson and Lord Heseltine. In my view, however, the biggest mistake—

[Mr McLoughlin]

rose—

[Jim Fitzpatrick]

I hope the right hon. Gentleman will forgive me; he knows that time is very limited but I do not wish to be discourteous. I was about to pay him a compliment in saying that in my view, one of the biggest mistakes made by one of his predecessors, the right hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge (Mr Hammond), was scrapping road safety targets that had bipartisan support across the House for 30 years and massively reduced deaths and serious injuries on our roads. Indeed, I commend the Secretary of State because at least he has had the decency to bring in forecasts that acknowledge we need to measure such things and set an ambition to reduce the numbers of people killed and seriously injured on the roads.

We have heard a number of thoughtful contributions. My hon. Friend the Member for Gateshead (Ian Mearns) made relevant points about the east coast main line and local connections, as well as sharing disturbing data on staffing conditions. The hon. Member for Harrogate and Knaresborough (Andrew Jones), a former Department for Transport Parliamentary Private Secretary, mounted a sterling defence of the coalition, which was a good way to sweeten his special local pleading, which I am sure went down well.

The distinguished Chair of the Transport Committee covered the recommendation from the new Committee report, to which I shall refer in a moment. The hon. Member for Argyll and Bute (Mr Reid) reminded us how the Lib Dems are the honest brokers in the coalition. He even got the Scottish National party on side, albeit briefly. The hon. Member for Milton Keynes South (Iain Stewart) used his characteristic gentle aggressiveness and Transport Committee experience to criticise Labour’s record, and sought to use European comparisons to justify UK prices. My hon. Friend the Member for Bolton West (Julie Hilling) raised the question of overcrowding on her local trains, as well as high ticketing costs and local buses, and the hon. Member for Nuneaton (Mr Jones) majored on the question of costs. My hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, Moor View (Alison Seabeck) raised a number of local issues as well as discussing major infrastructure items.

To return to the substance of the motion, according to the Department for Transport’s figures—the annual bus usage statistics for England—there was an increase in bus fares of 6.5%, which means fares have gone up by, on average, twice the rate of inflation. They have gone up by 5.4% in London. As we have heard, research has shown that one in five council-supported bus routes were cut or reduced last year, and that 41% of local authorities have had to axe services. That is not a good record on buses.

As we have heard, on rail fares, the Prime Minister promised to peg increases at 1% above inflation. That is another broken promise to add to the 70 missed targets headlined in The Daily Telegraph today—although perhaps it is one of the 70. The target was not only just missed; fare increases of up to 9.2% have been registered. And it gets worse: the Transport Committee states in its “Rail 2020” report:

“We recommend that the Government rule out forms of demand management which would lead to even higher fares for commuters on peak times”.

Why does it make that recommendation? It does so because of a quote from the Government’s rail fares and ticketing review from last year. The scriptwriters from “Yes, Minister” could not have improved on this language, and hon. Members will need to concentrate on the words:

“To provide a stronger incentive for behavioural change and more even usage of peak capacity among existing passengers, a wider ‘menu’ of fares could…also include a ‘high peak’ fare priced higher than the current Anytime day fare, a season ticket priced higher than the current season ticket”,

which means higher prices on routes. Perhaps the Minister will comment on that, because the Secretary of State did not refer to it, even though my hon. Friend the Member for Garston and Halewood raised the super-peak ticket on a number of occasions.

Labour’s position is a total contrast. The noble Lord Adonis set out his view last year of the policy he followed as Secretary of State in 2010. He said:

“Prior to 2010, train companies had the right to increase individual fares by up to five per cent above the…RPI+1 per cent level. This was a legacy of the privatisation settlement. I scrapped this flexibility because I believed it was deeply unfair”.

Of his successor as Transport Secretary, the right hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge, Lord Adonis has said:

“It was my firm intention to continue the policy for subsequent years, and I was mystified when…my successor…reinstated the fares flexibility. The only people who supported this change were the train companies. It is the job of government to be on the side of the travelling public. Labour took this seriously, which is why we scrapped the fares flexibility. By contrast, the present government appears just to be on the side of the train companies.”

Government Members asked why the policy was introduced only in 2010. That is a legitimate question, but a better one would be: why has it not been repeated since 2010? We have had three years of coalition fares increases, but the policy has not been back.

The Prime Minister promised capped fares, but it has not happened, and the Under-Secretary of State for Transport, the hon. Member for Lewes (Norman Baker), held out the prospect of the end of the era of above-inflation fare increases, but when asked by the BBC when that would happen, he could not answer. The Government are out of touch on rail. My hon. Friend the Member for Garston and Halewood quoted the right hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge, who said that rail is a “rich man’s toy”. The Under-Secretary of State—long-serving in the Government; long-suffering on the Opposition Benches—tried to claim over the new year that rail fares were

“not nearly as expensive as”

they were “being presented”, and that passengers were paying for a “premium service”. If by “premium service” he means paying more, getting less and standing for longer, I agree. Just this week, the rail Minister, the Minister of State, was bullied into using rail by the media, which was a sad passage.

Labour would put passengers first by banning train companies from increasing fares above a cap set by Ministers. Government Members have the opportunity to stand up for their rail and bus commuters by supporting our motion tonight in the Lobby. I strongly urge them to do so and I commend the motion to the House.

Rail Franchising

Lord McLoughlin Excerpts

Thursday 20th December 2012 Written Statements

[The Secretary of State for Transport (Mr Patrick McLoughlin)]

I would today like to give an update on the situation in relation to franchised train operator London Midland (LM).

Passengers who use LM trains may be aware that the operator has been experiencing difficulties recently, with a number of services being cancelled due to a shortage of driving staff

This situation has caused inconvenience and disruption, particularly to passengers in the west midlands, many of whom have expressed their dissatisfaction to me. I very much share their disappointment that they have not had the reliable service that they rightly expect.

However, although the recent levels of performance have been extremely disappointing, I am pleased to say that the measures that LM have put in place are beginning to work.

LM has implemented increases to driver efficiency to enable drivers to operate an increased number of routes during existing shifts, improved driver training processes, provided additional incentives for drivers to work overtime and put in place new measures that allow for drivers to cover shifts on other parts of the network where there are shortages.

This is in addition to the ongoing training programme that LM is undertaking to ensure that new drivers enter productive service as quickly as possible.

However, LM’s performance has been of such a level that they are now in breach of their contractual obligations. We have made London Midland aware that they must now take action to compensate passengers for the disruption caused. We have, therefore, agreed with LM that they will provide a substantial package of passenger benefits by way of compensation for the inconvenience that has been caused.

LM has agreed to spend an additional £4 million over the remainder of the franchise to put in place measures to ensure that these problems do not happen again. In addition, the package of passenger benefits includes the issue of five free rail day passes to London Midland season ticket holders, with an expected value of up to £3.5 million. We have also agreed that London Midland will invest a further £2.25 million in infrastructure improvement projects. We have required London Midland to discuss with Centro, the west midlands passenger transport executive, how the majority of this money will be invested for the benefit of those passengers who have experienced the worst disruption.

As a result of this consultation, LM has agreed that most of this money should be directed towards measures such as improvements to safety and security at stations and improving the reliability and efficiency of LM trains.

Lastly, we have also agreed with LM that they must make available an additional 500,000 advance tickets on key routes on the LM network, giving a net benefit of around £1.9 million to passengers who will be able to take advantage of these cheaper fares over the next two years of the franchise.

I hope that LM will be able to remain the operator of this franchise for the remainder of its contract—to September 2015. But London Midland will continue to work to challenging performance benchmarks for the remainder of the franchise, and we will take further action (including ending the franchise early and re-tendering it, if appropriate) in the event of any recurrence of performance problems.

In addition to the package of passenger benefits, we have agreed to revise the profile of performance benchmarks for the next year, to include additional measures that can penalise LM financially in the event of further poor performance. We have also agreed financial measures to ensure that the reduction in revenue as a result of the free and discounted tickets is borne by LM, and not by the taxpayer.

I am confident that this package, on balance, represents a good deal for passengers and taxpayers, and sends a message to the industry that this level of cancellations is unsatisfactory. I hope that LM can now put this period behind it, and continue to operate a good service for its passengers for the remainder of its franchise.

Roads Maintenance

Lord McLoughlin Excerpts

Tuesday 18th December 2012 Written Statements

[The Secretary of State for Transport (Mr Patrick McLoughlin)]

In the autumn statement earlier this month the Chancellor announced an additional £333 million for a dedicated fund to provide for essential maintenance to renew, repair and extend life of the highway network in England.

I am today publishing further details about how this fund will operate. Of the £333 million, I have allocated £215 million of this fund to local highway authorities in England, with £140 million to be allocated in 2013-14 and £75 million in 2014-15. The remainder will be allocated to the Highways Agency for work on the strategic road network.

It will be for individual local highway authorities to target the extra funds where it is most needed, for example on priorities such as road resurfacing, maintenance to bridges or repairing damage to the highway infrastructure caused by severe weather events, such as the recent flooding which had affected many colleagues’ constituencies.

To promote greater transparency I am also writing to local authorities explaining that each one will need to commit to publishing a short statement on its website at the end of each financial year setting out on what and where (in terms of location) this additional funding has been spent, and how it has complemented (rather than displaced) planned highway maintenance expenditure. I am also encouraging local authorities to consider how to minimise the disruption to business and other road users while the works are ongoing.

West Coast Rail Franchise

Lord McLoughlin Excerpts

Thursday 6th December 2012 Commons Chamber

[The Secretary of State for Transport (Mr Patrick McLoughlin)]

With permission, Mr. Speaker, I shall make a statement on what went wrong with the west coast franchise agreement and what we are doing to put things right.

I shall begin by updating the House on the Laidlaw inquiry, and on the decisive action that we are taking in response. I shall then inform the House of the new deal with Virgin Trains—including an enhanced service—that will begin this weekend. My approach to all this, from the start, has been to come to the House to explain the situation openly, quickly and clearly, and it is in that spirit that I make my third statement on the subject today.

Let me deal first with the Laidlaw inquiry. On 3 October, I announced the cancellation of the competition to run the inter-city west coast franchise because of the discovery of unacceptable flaws in the process run by the Department for Transport. As I explained to the House on 15 October, I launched two independent inquiries. I asked the first inquiry body, led by Sam Laidlaw, to look into what happened and why, and I am publishing Mr Laidlaw’s final report today. I asked the second body, led by the Eurostar chairman, Richard Brown, to focus on any lessons to be learnt for the purpose of future rail franchising. That inquiry is well advanced, and I expect to receive Mr Brown’s report by the end of the year. I shall publish it after that. I have placed a copy of Mr Laidlaw’s final report in the Vote Office, and I am placing a copy of my Department’s response to it in the Library. I do not hide from the seriousness of his findings. They make extremely uncomfortable reading for the Department. What happened caused serious problems for bidding firms, including FirstGroup, which was in no way at fault. Action must, and will, be taken.

Let me turn to the detail. Mr Laidlaw confirms much of what he first touched on in his interim report. He finds that the Department wrongly calculated the amount of risk capital bidders would have to offer to guarantee their franchise proposals against default, and he says that these incorrect figures were varied in ways that were wrong. Significantly, he also states for the first time that Ministers made the original 14 August provisional award without being told about the flaws and after being given “inaccurate reports”.

Mr Laidlaw also confirms that if his recommendations on strengthening the organisation are acted upon quickly, the Department will be able to do its job correctly in the future. There is nothing in the report to suggest that the flaws discovered in this franchise competition existed in other procurements in the Department.

Finally, Mr Laidlaw confirms that he has seen no evidence of bias against Virgin. He also offers a clear prescription, which we are already acting on. The Department will ensure that all future franchise competitions are delivered with a clear timeline, rigorous management and the right quality assurance. We will also create a simpler and clearer structure and governance process for rail franchise competitions. That will include the appointment of a single director general with responsibility for all rail policy and franchising, and we will ensure that we have the right mix of professional skills inside the Department and, where necessary, from professional external advisers.

I thank Mr Laidlaw for carrying out such a comprehensive review to such a tight timetable. Any specific personnel issues resulting from what has gone on are—and must, of course, remain—for the permanent secretary.

Secondly, let me turn to the future of the west coast main line. In all my actions, I have put the service to passengers first. That is why I am pleased to tell the House that my Department has negotiated terms with Virgin Rail Group to allow Virgin Trains to continue running the west coast service for up to 23 months. Our intention is to run a full competition for the longer term franchise to follow on from that.

The terms we have negotiated with Virgin secure a continued service for passengers at the same levels they enjoy today, and in some cases better. The timetable that was already agreed for December 2012 will operate, and today the last of the 106 Government-funded Pendolino carriages comes into service. That will allow more trains and longer trains on this vital route. That timetable includes a new hourly service between London and Glasgow.

I also want to see more improvements, including the introduction of new services from London to Blackpool and Shrewsbury. Subject to Virgin securing the track access rights to provide them and to our completing a value-for-money assessment, I hope that both of these new services will be introduced from December 2013.

The Laidlaw inquiry has told us that changes to the Department’s governance and structure are needed. We are carrying them out, and we have a new deal for the west coast main line. This has been an extremely serious issue for my Department and for the civil service, but I am determined that we learn the lessons and get on with the job we are here to do. With our commitment to High Speed 2 and the increase in capital spending on roads announced by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer this week, the Government are committed to improving our transport network and backing our railways. I commend this statement to the House.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr McLoughlin]

I had hoped that I had given the hon. Lady adequate time to read the report, but it seems that I did not. First, I will deal with her points about Ministers. I refer her to page 44, where paragraph 4.118.2 says that

“inaccurate statements were made to the then Minister of State in writing as to the manner in which the CAC”—

the contract award committee—

“had approached the SLF sizing process in respect of First’s bid at its meeting on 27 June”.

If inaccurate information was given to Ministers, a fact stated in the report, Ministers would have acted in good faith on the information they were given.

May I also make the point that is made on page 63 of the report? It states that

“in implementing substantial cost savings required by the Government’s spending review in 2010, the DfT significantly reduced its headcount, the number of contractors used and its use of external consultants.”

Mr Laidlaw goes on to say:

“That is not to say however that, with appropriate escalation…of the issues, sufficient resources could not or would not have been found.”

There was no significant escalation of the issue, so I think there is truth in that.

A number of parts of the report refer to the Minister of State, the Secretary of State, the Prime Minister and the Under-Secretary of State for Transport, my hon. Friend the Member for Lewes (Norman Baker), asking questions and I am afraid that there was a damning failure by the Department that must be put right. The hon. Lady says that I seek somehow to blame three civil servants. I have never, in any of the statements I have made in the House or privately, mentioned the names of any civil servants. That is a matter for the permanent secretary. We now have the HR report and the permanent secretary is considering that and what will happen in the future. I would have hoped that the hon. Lady would welcome that.

The hon. Lady talks about the position with First Great Western and its contract to run its railway line. May I remind her who negotiated that contract? It was inherited by the Government and was not our contract at all. If she feels that there are any problems with it, then excuse me but it is not the responsibility of the Government. She asked a specific question about the second year of the contract with Virgin Trains and I will write to her with the answer.

[David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con)]

The Secretary of State read two quotations from the report, which both implied to me a severe organisational failure. Did Laidlaw have anything to say about the position of the permanent secretary in all this?

[Mr McLoughlin]

As I think I said to my hon. Friend when I made my first statement on this matter, there are obviously serious questions to answer. The present permanent secretary took his post in April, when many of the incidents to which we are referring had already taken place.

[Mrs Louise Ellman (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab/Co-op)]

The Secretary of State acted decisively when he became aware of these issues, but the standing of the Department has been severely damaged by this episode. Three franchises were postponed and the £40 million is simply the first stage of the cost to the public purse. What lessons does the Secretary of State take from this incident for future ministerial responsibility?

[Mr McLoughlin]

I am grateful to the hon. Lady and I know her Committee will see Mr Laidlaw and no doubt others during their deliberations on this subject. There are a number of lessons not just for Ministers but for the civil service as a whole and on closer reading of the report they become apparent. I hope that this sort of episode will not happen again to any Government.

[Paul Maynard (Blackpool North and Cleveleys) (Con)]

The Secretary of State will be unsurprised to hear me welcome the news about direct services to Blackpool. Does he agree that any infrastructure investment is only as good as the economic planning by local stakeholders? Will he encourage local councils and the local enterprise partnership to meet local MPs urgently to discuss how to take advantage of that announcement and not wait until December 2013 to decide what to do about it?

[Mr McLoughlin]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend, particularly for the way in which he has campaigned for this service. I know that he will be pleased by the intention I have announced today. As I have said, it is an intention and is not absolutely tied down as there are a few processes to go through. Given the way in which he has shown leadership, I very much hope that he gets that message across to the stakeholders involved so that we can make progress.

[Sir Gerald Kaufman (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab)]

Is it not clear that the right hon. Gentleman is doing his very best to clear up an appalling mess that he inherited from his predecessor? Although of course matters of personnel in his Department are, as he says, the responsibility of the permanent secretary, the overall administration was the responsibility of his predecessor and it is unacceptable that she complacently remains a member of the Government having left this expensive mess. I am travelling up to my home in Manchester this afternoon. What am I to say to the excellent train crew who will be looking after me and all the other passengers about the security of their jobs, in which they have the right to be confident and which has been left in total dubiety by what happened before the Secretary of State took over?

[Mr McLoughlin]

I think I am grateful for the conservative way in which the right hon. Gentleman made his point. What he can say to the crew on the west coast main line is that both this Government and, in fairness, the previous Government have invested huge amounts of public money in that line—some £9 billion. I am glad to be able to say today that we have completed the delivery of the 106 new Pendolino carriages to show our support for that line. I hope that my announcement today and the fact that I have not done what I initially said I would do, which was a short-term contract, then a medium-term contract, gives train crew security and that they can work with their company for the future franchise.

[Daniel Kawczynski (Shrewsbury and Atcham) (Con)]

I was disappointed with the shadow Secretary of State for Transport. When we called Sir Richard Branson into the House of Commons, he and his officials specifically stated that they had first raised concerns about the bidding process with the Labour Government and Lord Adonis. I welcome the announcement of a direct service for Shrewsbury. My hon. Friend the Member for The Wrekin (Mark Pritchard) and I have long campaigned, along with other Shropshire MPs, for this vital service for Shropshire, which will be a great boost for tourism and business for Shrewsbury, the county town. When we finally have that service I will invite the Secretary of State to join me on the train from Shrewsbury to London and I will buy him a drink on that journey.

[Mr McLoughlin]

My hon. Friend is getting into the Christmas cheer a little early. He, along with my hon. Friend the Member for The Wrekin (Mark Pritchard), have been vociferous in making the case for a service to Shrewsbury and other stops on the way. There is still work to be done, but I very much hope we can get that service by December next year.

[Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab)]

I have not seen the report so perhaps the Secretary of State can answer this question. He refers to the risk capital that bidders had to put forward as a guarantee and says that Laidlaw said that Ministers were not told about the flaws after being given inaccurate reports. What questions did Ministers ask about the capital that bidders would have to offer to guarantee the bid?

[Mr McLoughlin]

I was not in those meetings, for obvious reasons, but I know that Ministers were constantly probing. Mr Laidlaw saw the former permanent secretaries at the Department—not just the present one, but the former ones—and spoke to former Ministers there too.

[Graham Evans (Weaver Vale) (Con)]

I welcome the Secretary of State’s decision to award an interim franchise to Virgin Trains, as this provides a great deal of stability for passengers up and down the country. Will he join me in paying tribute to the Virgin staff on that line, who throughout this very difficult time have always acted with great professionalism?

[Mr McLoughlin]

I had a meeting just the other day with some disabled people. They sang the praises of Virgin Trains as providing some of the best services to disabled people. I was pleased to be able to pass that message on to Sir Richard Branson when I met him yesterday.

[Mr Mike Weir (Angus) (SNP)]

The Secretary of State said that the Brown report would look at the lessons learned for future rail franchises. Perhaps the biggest lesson is that the whole system is a shambles, but given that the report is due shortly, what process does he have in place for taking account of its lessons in the negotiations with Virgin for the franchise in the immediate future?

[Mr McLoughlin]

The truth is that what both Governments have recognised about franchising is that it has brought massive passenger growth on the railways and the railways have flourished since franchising has taken place. The hon. Gentleman asks me to say what implications the Brown report will have for franchising. I think I had better wait till I receive it before I answer.

[Simon Wright (Norwich South) (LD)]

I welcome the degree of transparency that Ministers have brought to these matters. What plans is the Secretary of State making to foster a culture in which admissions of fault are freely made in the Department and processes paused and rectified where necessary? Is it not right that if mistakes are found, hands must be held up?

[Mr McLoughlin]

I am pleased that my hon. Friend welcomes the transparency that I have demonstrated today. I hope I do not have to do it too often.

[Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/Co-op)]

Edinburgh is served by both the west coast main line and the east coast main line services, and between the two there have been three occasions in recent years when the franchise process has gone wrong. Given that the Government will have to sort out the franchise system, not just for the west coast main line, would it not make sense now to decide to keep services on the east coast main line operated by the current operator and allow it to get the benefits of closer co-operation with Network Rail, rather than force it to go through a franchise process again?

[Mr McLoughlin]

The hon. Gentleman is jumping to too many conclusions at the start. When the previous Government brought in Directly Operated Railways to run the east coast main line, they made it very clear that they would want to move to a franchise process and re-let the franchise, and that is certainly the position that this Government take.

[Mrs Cheryl Gillan (Chesham and Amersham) (Con)]

The welcome announcement of extra capacity and services on the west coast main line drives a coach and horses through one of the prime reasons for High Speed 2, which is to reduce overcrowding on the WCML. Given the stark warnings of the Laidlaw report, particularly chapter 7, which identifies failings in the capability and capacity of the Department for Transport, how can anyone trust the Department with what will be the largest peacetime spend on a project? Is it not time the Secretary of State took another brave decision and consigned this poorly managed, ill-conceived and increasingly thinly justified project to the waste paper basket?

[Mr McLoughlin]

My right hon. Friend is vociferous on this issue on behalf of her constituents. She is asking me to prejudge announcements that I will make next year. The Chancellor of the Exchequer made it clear yesterday that we will be moving forward with HS2. I look forward to welcoming her to the Department next week.

[Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab)]

Further to the previous question, will the Secretary of State clarify whether there are any implications for the value-for-money exercise that was carried out on High Speed 2 and, if there are, whether he will be asking the civil service to go back over them again?

[Mr McLoughlin]

That is a valid question, but of course, as I have said, this is a franchise exercise that went wrong. High Speed 2 is a capital project that I think will benefit the United Kingdom and our long-term capacity. No railway line has been built north of London for over 100 years, so it is about time we increased capacity.

[Nigel Mills (Amber Valley) (Con)]

The Secretary of State said that there were no implications from the Laidlaw report for any other procurement in his Department, but the interim findings clearly set out that there were concerns about the Department’s management structure and the quality assurance process. Is he still confident that there is no need to review the Thameslink rolling stock contract to ensure that no mistake was made in it as well?

[Mr McLoughlin]

I can assure my hon. Friend that I have of course looked at that situation. I believe that the contract that was announced some time ago will be coming to a conclusion in the near future.

[Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab)]

The failure of the franchising system, at a cost of £40 million, compares with how the east coast franchise has been taken in-house, saving nearly £200 million. Is it not time that consideration was given to bringing the west coast franchise, and every other franchise, back in-house in line with the successful model used for the east coast franchise?

[Mr McLoughlin]

I think the hon. Gentleman, in a rather convoluted way, has called for the renationalisation of the railways. That is certainly not something this Government will do. If he can convince his Front Benchers that that might be the right way forward, we will be interested to see that development.

[Iain Stewart (Milton Keynes South) (Con)]

I very much welcome the additional services and carriages that the Secretary of State has announced. In addition, both Virgin and FirstGroup pledged in their bids significant long-term enhancements to services on the west coast main line. Whatever conclusions are reached following the Brown report, will he ensure that these additional benefits are still secured for passengers?

[Mr McLoughlin]

I am sorry, but I missed the last part of my hon. Friend’s question. I know that he, as a member of the Transport Committee, will continue to press for a very good service through his constituency.

[Gregg McClymont (Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East) (Lab)]

The Secretary of State will be aware that the three civil servants suspended over this fiasco have this morning been reinstated. What does that say about the judgment of leading officials and Ministers in the Department for Transport, and can he elaborate on the reinstatement?

[Mr McLoughlin]

Staffing is a matter for the permanent secretary, who received the Stow report, which dealt with human resources. The suspensions took place as a precautionary measure while the report was being produced. Obviously, consequences will flow from the permanent secretary receiving that report, and those will become public in due course.

[James Duddridge (Rochford and Southend East) (Con)]

I congratulate the Secretary of State on the decision on the west coast main line, but has he considered the Essex Thameside franchise and whether C2C should be given a similar concession?

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr McLoughlin]

I am waiting to receive the Brown report, which will, I hope, take us further on lessons to be learned for future franchising. I will be most insistent on passengers receiving the services that they are currently getting, and, where possible, an enhanced service.

[Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab)]

Has the Transport Secretary assessed the potential for running the west coast main line under public ownership and what the benefits might be?

[Mr McLoughlin]

I believe that the way in which the west coast main line is run by Virgin has been very popular with Members, not on the Government Benches but on the Opposition Benches, who have announced their intention to support that franchise.

[Eric Ollerenshaw (Lancaster and Fleetwood) (Con)]

I thank the Secretary of State for the speed with which he has dealt with this and the integrity that he has shown throughout in dealing with this difficult problem. My constituents are still seeing much needed improvements, with extra carriages and the line to Blackpool, but I hope he will forgive me if I remind him that Fleetwood remains a town with a railway line but without a railway service.

[Mr McLoughlin]

I do not mind my hon. Friend reminding me of that, and I know that he will do so on many occasions when he gets the opportunity. I look forward to having discussions and conversations with him about how we can possibly improve the situation in which his constituents find themselves, but I hope that he welcomes the fact that the line has come part of the way to his constituency, if not yet all the way.

[Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) (Lab)]

The west coast main line is of huge importance to the Scottish economy, as it carries half a million passengers a year along its whole length for business and tourism purposes. What assurances has the Secretary of State received this morning from Virgin trains about whether the 248 workers who are employed by the company in Scotland will have security in their jobs for the future?

[Mr McLoughlin]

I am not responsible for the personnel decisions of Virgin trains, but I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will make representations to the company. I hope he welcomes the fact that I have announced today the completion of 106 new Pendolinos and the hourly service to Glasgow, which are substantial improvements in this service for people in Scotland.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

May I praise my right hon. Friend for launching these inquiries so soon after he took office? However, while Parliament holds Ministers to account, who holds the Sir Humphreys to account? There is a stink about this process among the permanent secretariat in our civil service. What has happened to the previous permanent secretary in the Department—is he or she still in the civil service? Is the current permanent secretary going to take any responsibility?

[Mr McLoughlin]

My hon. Friend says that Parliament holds Ministers to account. In fact, it is not only Parliament that holds Ministers to account, because that also happens through the Select Committee procedures, on which I will certainly not lecture my hon. Friend, and that applies to permanent secretaries and officials as well. There will undoubtedly be other reports not only by the Transport Committee but by other Select Committees and by the National Audit Office. Various reports will come out on this subject.

[Chris Williamson (Derby North) (Lab)]

Will the Secretary of State agree to meet staff representatives through their trade union to discuss and consider the ongoing uncertainties and concerns about this contract?

[Mr McLoughlin]

I am always happy to meet various bodies, and if the hon. Gentleman puts a proposal to me I will certainly consider it.

[Mr Marcus Jones (Nuneaton) (Con)]

I congratulate my right hon. Friend on using the interim finance to bring forward further service improvements on the west coast main line. He will know that we are meeting next week to discuss some of these issues, but will he take my comments as a bid for the return of some of the Virgin off-peak services that the previous Government took away from Nuneaton in 2008?

[Mr McLoughlin]

My hon. Friend has just given me a taster of what our meeting next week will be about. I will no doubt have a better explanation for him then. He has been a very strong voice for Nuneaton in trying to get extra facilities for his constituents.

[Lucy Powell (Manchester Central) (Lab/Co-op)]

It is now clear what a complete shambles this whole affair has been and how much time and money has been lost. Fast, frequent and reliable trains are critical to the Greater Manchester economy, but with nearly three years’ delay until the new franchise comes on track, vital investment decisions will put the reliability and speed of this service at risk, which our economy can ill afford. How will that be addressed and where will the money come from for this much needed investment?

[Mr McLoughlin]

I welcome the hon. Lady to this place. I am sure she will be a prominent speaker on transport issues over the years to come. I would point out to her that the levels of investment that we are putting into the railways are as impressive—if not more so, given the financial situation the country finds itself in—as what the previous Government put in. I met council leaders in Manchester a few weeks ago and talked about a huge amount of investment that is going into the Manchester area. I have already mentioned the completion of the Pendolino trains, and the purchase of new carriages will enhance the service for her constituents and the people of Manchester.

[Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con)]

I welcome the Secretary of State’s statement, particularly the announcement that a new direct rail link from Shropshire to London will start from next December. I pay tribute to him and the Minister of State for all their work. I also pay tribute, in a cross-party spirit, to the hon. Member for Telford (David Wright) and to my right hon. Friend the Member for North Shropshire (Mr Paterson), my hon. Friend the Member for Ludlow (Mr Dunne) and my hon. and dear Friend the Member for Shrewsbury and Atcham (Daniel Kawczynski) for all their work. In the ongoing discussions with Virgin, could the important Shropshire market town of Wellington and the important town of Telford also be considered for the timetable?

[Mr McLoughlin]

I did not actually announce the confirmation of that service, but I very much hope that it will be confirmed. I accept my hon. Friend’s bid for it to stop at other stations on the way, but we will just have to see what progress we make.

[Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con)]

When the direct line from Euston to Shrewsbury was withdrawn, it was a huge blow to the whole of central Wales—to the tourism industry, the economy and the travelling public. Will the Secretary of State accept my constituents’ appreciation of the fact that that direct link has been restored by today’s announcement, a full two years before it would have been if the FirstGroup bid had gone ahead? Will he also join me and my hon. Friend the Member for Shrewsbury and Atcham (Daniel Kawczynski) on the first trip, on which I will buy coffee for both of them?

[Mr McLoughlin]

By the sounds of it, we will have a full train on that particular trip. I had better talk to my right hon. Friend the Chief Whip to make sure that the timetable is conducive to the House’s sitting times.

[Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con)]

I remind my right hon. Friend of the chaos, cost and uncertainty that resulted from the east coast main line collapsing not just once, but twice under the previous Government. With that in mind, will he update the House on the progress of that franchise?

[Mr McLoughlin]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for rightly pointing out that mistakes and things that go wrong in franchising are not new and that they have happened in the past. As I said, I am awaiting the Brown report, which will tell us about future franchising and will be an important part of our debate on it.

[Mark Pawsey (Rugby) (Con)]

The Secretary of State’s decision today will provide welcome stability to the many users of the west coast main line in my constituency. I know that they will be pleased to be able to continue to travel on Virgin trains. I welcome the fact that, under the interim contract, he is not just maintaining the status quo, but providing improvements, such as a new direct service to Rugby from Scotland for the first time since 2008.

[Mr McLoughlin]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for welcoming the new services. The simple fact is that the train operators are very much aware of the demand for new and regular services. As anyone who has witnessed today’s statement will know, we are coming under increasing pressure to expand them and certainly not to decrease them.

[Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)]

On behalf of the House, may I thank the Secretary of State for coming here for the third time to make a statement on this matter? In all my time in the House, this has been a unique experience. For the first time, something has gone wrong in a Department and a Minister has had the courage to come here to admit it and to do something about it. I have never seen that before. With regard to his former role, will the Secretary of State encourage other Ministers to do the same thing?

[Mr McLoughlin]

I think Ministers are always ready to hold up their hands when something goes wrong. We need to be straight with the British people. I would not have expected such applause from my hon. Friend, bearing in mind the occasional crossed words that we may have had when I was in my previous role.

Inter-city West Coast Franchise

Lord McLoughlin Excerpts

Thursday 6th December 2012 Written Statements

[The Secretary of State for Transport (Mr Patrick McLoughlin)]

On 15 October 2012, Official Report, column 6WS, I announced to the House that following the cancellation of the inter-city west coast franchise competition the Department for Transport was commencing negotiations with Virgin Rail Group (VRG).

I can today announce that negotiations have concluded successfully and that Virgin trains will continue to operate services on the west coast main line.

After careful consideration I believe taxpayers, rail passengers and the wider rail industry will be better served by moving directly from this agreement with VRG to a longer-term franchise on the west coast main line. Doing so will provide greater certainty for passengers, minimise disruption for all stakeholders and enable us to maximise the benefits for taxpayers and west coast passengers. For this reason the new franchise with VRG will be for up to 23 months.

I am also pleased to announce that passengers will not only experience the same levels of service they have previously enjoyed but will also benefit from improvements to previous levels.

In addition this agreement coincides with the successful completion today, on budget and ahead of schedule, of a project to deliver 106 new Pendolino carriages on to the west coast main line.

The new carriages, which will see up to 28,000 extra seats provided each day, are being introduced with £1.5 billion of Government support.

Under the new franchise agreement, there will also be a new hourly service between London and Glasgow.

This franchise will operate as a management contract, with both revenue and cost-risk being borne by the Government. In return VRG will receive a margin of 1% on revenue. The contract also makes a provision for the Department and VRG to agree revised commercial terms that would see VRG take greater revenue and cost-risk in the period to 9 November 2014.

Oral Answers to Questions

Lord McLoughlin Excerpts

Thursday 29th November 2012 Commons Chamber

[Zac Goldsmith (Richmond Park) (Con)]

5. For what reasons summer 2015 has been set as the time by which the independent commission on aviation chaired by Sir Howard Davies must publish its final report.

[The Secretary of State for Transport (Mr Patrick McLoughlin)]

It is vital that the commission has sufficient time to carry out a thorough investigation of the options and build a consensus on its long-term recommendations. The timetable has been set to allow that to take place.

[Zac Goldsmith]

This looks very much like an attempt to kick the issue into the long grass until after the election. My message to the Secretary of State is that uncertainty for three years, and probably another three years for planning, is not only bad politics but bad for the economy. I urge him please to ensure that next year’s interim report provides real clarity on the Government’s preferred solution so that communities, businesses and, of course, voters can plan accordingly.

[Mr McLoughlin]

I am not going to predict at this stage what will be in the interim report of a commission that has only just been set up. They will not be the Government’s recommendations; they will be those of the commission. I hope that the commission has been drawn widely enough to attract cross-party support.

[Graham Stringer (Blackley and Broughton) (Lab)]

After half a century of inquiries and investigations into runway capacity in the south-east of England, there are almost no new facts to be learned. Is this not just a fig leaf before the Government do a U-turn and provide a third runway at Heathrow?

[Mr McLoughlin]

I am sorry that the hon. Gentleman thinks that is the case, but it is not. In fact, we are trying to build a consensus across the parties on large infrastructure projects such as this, and to a degree that consensus has been achieved. The HS2 route that we have adopted is the route that the previous Government published.

[Sir Alan Haselhurst (Saffron Walden) (Con)]

In the meantime, noting the results announced by the owners of Gatwick airport yesterday, does my right hon. Friend believe that competition is an important element in trying to ease the capacity problems in the London airport system?

[Mr McLoughlin]

The truth of the matter is that a number of airports are now owned by different companies as a result of the changes that have been made, and they are coming forward with their own proposals, which will add to the approach taken by the Davies commission. It will certainly not be short of representations of various sorts, including, I imagine, from my right hon. Friend.

[Maria Eagle (Garston and Halewood) (Lab)]

The Prime Minister came back from his summer holiday saying that he was

“more determined than ever to cut through the dither that holds this country back.”

Having dithered for a year before finally accepting our suggestion of an independent commission on aviation, the Government have now cynically set a time scale that pushes decisions beyond the next election. Will the Secretary of State finally listen to all those, including the CBI and the British Chambers of Commerce, who want the national interest to be put before party management, accelerate the time scale, and ask Sir Howard Davies to produce his final report by the end of next year?

[Mr McLoughlin]

In all honesty, the Labour party has also changed its position on what should happen at Heathrow. I would have hoped that the composition of the commission attracted widespread support. Indeed, one of its members is an adviser to the Leader of the Opposition on infrastructure projects. It is right that we get the right answer and build consensus on what we are trying to do.

[Maria Eagle]

Business will be bitterly disappointed by that answer. It is no wonder the Mayor of London has described his own Government’s approach to aviation as

“a policy of utter inertia”,

“glacial” and a “fudgerama”. HS2, Thameslink, franchising, investment promised in the autumn statement a year ago: all are running late. The Secretary of State is now presiding over the department for dither and delay. When is he going to get a grip?

[Mr McLoughlin]

The hon. Lady was smiling at the end of her question, and that betrays the fact that it was a very good line written for her but not quite believed by her when she delivered it. We are doing a huge amount in delivering for UK infrastructure. I look forward to seeing the recommendations that she wants to put to the Davies commission, which will tell us what Labour wants to do.

[Mr Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con)]

6. What improvements to transport infrastructure he has planned that will affect Lincolnshire.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Secretary of State for Transport (Mr Patrick McLoughlin)]

On 13 November, I announced that the preferred bidder for the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency’s counter services contract was Post Office Ltd. We expect the contract to be awarded before Christmas and it will be operational from April 2013. The contract will achieve savings of between £13 million and £15 million each year. The initial contract will run for seven years.

[Nigel Adams]

I am grateful to the Secretary of State for that reply. Does he agree that this decision will provide a great boost for many village post offices, such as those in Hambleton, Monk Fryston and Cawood in my constituency, and will help to preserve their long-term viability?

[Mr McLoughlin]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend, who was one of the leading campaigners trying to ensure that the contract was awarded to the Post Office. I am pleased that it managed to win the contract. It won it in an open competition, which shows that it is able to win contracts from the Government to provide services. The decision is vital for places, including those in my constituency, that rely to a huge extent on their rural post offices.

[Michael Fabricant (Lichfield) (Con)]

My right hon. Friend may recall that for a very brief time I was the shadow Department of Trade and Industry spokesman on post offices. The key thing has always been the need for footfall, because without it, as my hon. Friend the Member for Selby and Ainsty (Nigel Adams) said, there is no viability. What increase in footfall does my right hon. Friend estimate will result from this innovative move?

[Mr McLoughlin]

I do remember my hon. Friend’s time as our party’s spokesman on post offices. Indeed, I was the Minister with responsibility for the Post Office at one point in history, so I well appreciate how important post offices are to our rural communities. It is important that they win business, but they have to compete for that business. They have done so very successfully in this case.

[Graeme Morrice (Livingston) (Lab)]

8. If he will make it his policy to reinstate national targets to reduce deaths and serious injuries on the roads.

[Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab)]

13. If he will make it his policy to reinstate national targets to reduce deaths and serious injuries on the roads.

[The Secretary of State for Transport (Mr Patrick McLoughlin)]

The Government have no plans to reinstate national targets. The strategic framework for road safety sets out measures that we intend to take to continue to reduce casualties. Those include making forecasts of the casualty numbers that we might expect to see through to 2030 if our measures, and the actions of local authorities, are successful.

[Graeme Morrice]

With the numbers killed and seriously injured on Britain’s roads increasing for the first time in 17 years, will the Secretary of State think again about the decision to axe national targets on reducing deaths and serious injuries, which helped to focus efforts across Government, local government and the agencies?

[Mr McLoughlin]

I will never take safety lightly; it must always be uppermost in the mind of the Secretary of State for Transport. The United Kingdom has a very good record. In 1979, the number of people killed on the roads was 6,352. In 2011, the number was 1,901. That is still far too many, but the country has been heading in the right direction.

[Kate Green]

Campaigners will meet in my constituency this weekend to discuss how we can improve local road safety. There is growing support for 20 mph speed limits in residential areas. Why does the Department advise that safety has to be balanced against economic considerations and traffic flow, when there is no evidence of longer journey times in 20 mph areas?

[Mr McLoughlin]

I am always willing to look at the hon. Lady’s representations. It is important that we take a range of measures to improve safety. We have taken a range of measures, as have the companies that produce cars. There is no doubt that cars are much more responsive in their braking power than they were 30 years ago. We have made movements in the right direction. In some areas, 20 mph speed limits are right.

[Mr John Leech (Manchester, Withington) (LD)]

At a time of budget constraints, agencies understandably concentrate scarce resources on the performance targets against which they are measured. That is clearly having an impact on road safety budgets. I urge the Secretary of State to reconsider this decision because quite apart from the personal tragedy that is involved in all fatalities, it is a false economy, because every fatality costs a lot of money.

[Mr McLoughlin]

Indeed. The hon. Gentleman is right: a fatality not only causes huge damage and a dramatic situation for the family involved in that tragedy, but there is also cost to the health service and other services. There has been no diminution in the desire of the Department for Transport to improve road safety, and there will not be while I am Secretary of State.

[Paul Maynard (Blackpool North and Cleveleys) (Con)]

The Secretary of State may be aware that road traffic deaths in the east midlands are double those in the north east per capita. As I learned from the Transport Committee inquiry into road safety, national targets allow underperforming local authorities to shelter behind the excellent performance of other local authorities, Blackpool included. Does the Secretary of State agree that national targets actually lead to more traffic deaths in some parts of the country because we are not targeting underperformance?

[Mr McLoughlin]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend; he makes an interesting point. Whenever serious or fatal accidents take place I want a proper investigation to be conducted, the results of which can be carried across to provide experience to other local authorities throughout the United Kingdom.

[Jim Fitzpatrick (Poplar and Limehouse) (Lab)]

The Secretary of State’s decision will be bitterly regretted by campaign groups across the country. Targets introduced by the Thatcher Administration 30 years ago had cross-party support and have successfully brought down casualty rates across the country. His use of the word “forecasts” indicates that he is trying to claw something back from his predecessor’s bad decision to abolish targets. Will the Secretary of State think again? Targets are not the whole solution but a component; they are part of the way to reduce serious injuries and deaths on British roads.

[Mr McLoughlin]

I know the hon. Gentleman takes this issue incredibly seriously, and although he talks about deaths I think we should look at the seriously injured as well. In the year ending June 2012, there were 1,790 deaths on British roads—a 6% drop on the year before.

[Mark Pawsey (Rugby) (Con)]

The Secretary of State is well aware that those most at risk on our roads are young drivers. I was pleased to see his recent positive comments about placing restrictions on young drivers—for example, on the number of passengers they may carry or the times of day they may drive. Will he indicate to the House how those proposals might be taken forward?

[Mr McLoughlin]

A number of representations on young drivers have been made to the Department for Transport and, as I said in that interview, they are all worth considering and investigating properly to see whether we can reduce the terrible toll that is sometimes caused by young drivers. However, that is not so of all young drivers. We read about the horrendous cases, but not about the many cases where young drivers behave and act responsibly on the road, as do other road users.

[Mr Nicholas Brown (Newcastle upon Tyne East) (Lab)]

9. What progress he has made on dualling the A1 north of Newcastle; and if he will make a statement.

--- Later in debate ---

[Neil Parish (Tiverton and Honiton) (Con)]

T1. If he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities.

[The Secretary of State for Transport (Mr Patrick McLoughlin)]

I thank all the people who are working to get our roads and railways back up and running following widespread flooding. It has caused significant damage to our infrastructure, but I know that every effort is being made to return the service and reopen all routes as soon as possible. I will be seeing those efforts myself near Bristol later today. I can also update the House on our preparations for winter. We now have almost 2 million tonnes of salt, nearly double the amount two years ago, on stand-by to keep our motorways and main roads ice-free. We have also invested heavily in equipment to help clear the railway tracks of snow, and to stop rail and points freezing. I hope to be able to publish the Sam Laidlaw report into the inter-city west coast franchising competition and update the House next week.

[Neil Parish]

I thank the Secretary of State for all the work he has done with flooding, especially in my constituency through Tiverton into Exeter. The M5 also flooded, which shows that it is necessary to have a second arterial route dualled. The A30 needs to be dualled from Honiton upwards, because the Stonehenge end has always been the problem. We should work northwards from my constituency—there is no bias there whatever, Secretary of State—and have a second route.

[Mr McLoughlin]

My hon. Friend is a great campaigner for his area. In my job as Secretary of State for Transport, I am learning a lot more about roads I have never travelled on. I will certainly look at his request—[Interruption.] I am sorry, Mr Speaker, I was misled by my opposite number. I was trying to listen to the hon. Lady as well as answer my hon. Friend. I assure him that I will certainly look into his representations.

[Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab)]

With regard to bus cuts, the Under-Secretary of State for Transport, the hon. Member for Lewes (Norman Baker) suggested to this House that

“there have not been the cuts that the Opposition are so keen to talk up.”——[Official Report, 19 April 2012; Vol. 543, c. 485.]

However, in July, Passenger Focus found that

“the majority of passenger impacts were below the water line,”—

and we now know that supported bus miles fell by 9.3% last year. Will the Minister therefore finally accept that the reduction in central Government funding has resulted in substantial cuts to socially valuable bus services?

--- Later in debate ---

[Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD)]

The Government recently awarded the core Crossrail signalling contract to the proven talent of Chippenham’s Invensys Rail, working in partnership with Siemens. What provisions in that contract will secure a British-based work force for the project, in light of today’s announcement of the intended sale of Invensys Rail to Siemens?

[Mr McLoughlin]

I need proper notice of that question, but I will certainly write to my hon. Friend with the answer.

[Jessica Morden (Newport East) (Lab)]

Toll increases on the Severn bridge were announced last week. Businesses and commuters in my constituency feel that they are paying the highest tolls in the UK. What they would like to hear from the Government is that they will do what they can to help now, and that when the concession ends the tolls will be substantially reduced for local people, not considered a useful revenue stream for the Government. Will the Minister make that commitment?

[Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)]

In 2007 funds were awarded under capital expenditure grants—the Bellwin formula—to Hull and Gloucestershire. Will similar moneys be awarded to repair bridges and roads that were severely damaged in the September floods in north Yorkshire?

[Mr McLoughlin]

My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs made a statement dealing with the Bellwin formula and some of the flooding. I will look at the suggestion my hon. Friend has made.

[Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab)]

Will the Secretary of State revisit the issue of electrifying the Barking to Gospel Oak section of the North London line? Electrification would make freight transport much more efficient and cheaper and enable much greater integrated working of the whole London overground system with the same trains, rather than having to switch to diesel on one section. [Interruption.]

[Mr Speaker]

Order. The hon. Member for Central Ayrshire (Mr Donohoe) should not be chuntering from a sedentary position about who came into the Chamber when. I know perfectly well what I am doing. The hon. Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn) has been here for some time. He has been legitimately called and that is all there is to it. It is very straightforward. The hon. Member for Central Ayrshire should keep schtum; he might learn something.

[Mr McLoughlin]

I hear the representations that the hon. Gentleman has made about the line. Strong cases have been made. The line did not make the cut for electrification last time. We have announced huge electrification across the network, and I will certainly look at the case he has made.

The hon. Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross, representing the House of Commons Commission, was asked—

HGV Road User Levy Bill

Lord McLoughlin Excerpts

Tuesday 20th November 2012 Commons Chamber

[The Secretary of State for Transport (Mr Patrick McLoughlin)]

I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.

As the House knows, the reason for this Bill is to enable the introduction of a new levy for all heavy goods vehicles weighing 12 tonnes and over that are kept or used on the UK road network. We plan to implement the levy from April 2014 for UK-registered hauliers. Subject to the completion of a procurement process, it will apply to foreign-registered hauliers from the same date.

We intend the levy to apply to all categories of public roads in the UK and to both UK and foreign-registered HGVs. Vehicles that cause wear and tear to our roads should make a payment that takes that into account. HGVs registered abroad are more likely to carry their weight on fewer axles than UK-registered vehicles, which means that foreign-registered vehicles cause more wear and tear to our roads. It is therefore more unjust that they do not make a contribution towards the maintenance of these roads. They leave the burden to fall entirely on the British taxpayer.

[Robert Flello (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Lab)]

What about foreign truck drivers who come over with large tanks full of fuel and who do not contribute to the ordinary wear and tear on our roads because they do not pay the fuel duty?

[Mr McLoughlin]

I take the hon. Gentleman’s point. Under this Bill, we will at least charge them something to use British roads—at the moment, they pay absolutely nothing. Although I am not saying that this is the entire answer, we are moving in the right direction.

Foreign hauliers using roads in the UK have long enjoyed an advantage over our own haulage industry in that they do not pay to use the UK’s road network, while our own hauliers pay to use roads through tolls and other charging schemes when they travel abroad in Europe. For many years all main parties have wanted to introduce a measure to correct that imbalance and I am delighted that this Government are actually doing it.

I am sure that the House recognises that HGVs play a crucial role in our economy by supplying businesses and servicing customers. More than two thirds of all goods moved within the UK travel by road and, in the main, on HGVs.

[Mr Gordon Marsden (Blackpool South) (Lab)]

The Secretary of State is right to pay tribute to the work done by HGVs in this country but, at a time when UK hauliers and other businesses that make deliveries are suffering economically, will he outline the rationale behind introducing the Bill now? What other things will the Government do to protect UK hauliers from additional costs?

[Mr McLoughlin]

The reason for introducing the Bill now is to try to level the playing field and to take action that the previous Government talked about but, I am afraid, never found the time to do anything about. I make no apologies for wanting to do this now. I wish it had been done sooner, but at least we are doing it at our first opportunity.

A key part of the movement of goods is provided by foreign hauliers and the Government recognise the important contributions they make to the economy. They make 1.5 million trips to the UK every each year, and we do not wish to discourage free trade with our partners in other countries. However, it is only right that we ensure that our own haulage industry has a fair chance to compete, and I hope that the Bill goes some way to achieving that. I met some hauliers when I announced the Bill and they said that it would lead to more jobs in this country.

As colleagues will be aware, any road user charge is subject to the strict conditions set out in the Eurovignette directive, which provides a framework for charging on roads and specifies the maximum daily charge as €11. That is likely to rise to €12 by 2014, which will mean that it should equate to the £10 a day that we intend to charge the largest vehicles that use our roads.

I also recognise that many trips made by foreign hauliers take longer than one day, so they will also be able to pay the levy for different periods, up to one year. In the case of the largest vehicles, this annual charge will be £1,000. Our estimate of the revenues that will be gained as a result of foreign hauliers paying a charge is between £19 million and £23 million a year. Although that is not enormous, it shows we are doing something that is clearly wanted. That is why the Bill is right. The Government are also committed to introducing other measures—principally vehicle excise duty reductions—that are not part of this Bill to ensure a fairer deal for HGV drivers.

I will now go through the Bill’s points of interest.

[Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab)]

I have a question about something that I genuinely do not understand. The new levies will be welcome, but why will there be a delay, as I understand it—I may be wrong—between their imposition on UK hauliers, who will have to pay first, and on non-UK hauliers?

[Mr McLoughlin]

I very much hope that there will not be a delay. As I have said, I intend the levy to be introduced in April 2014, subject to certain procurement measures. Once it is introduced in this country, there will be a reduction of a similar amount in VED charges, so our lorry drivers should not pay anything extra. Foreign drivers will be charged from, I hope, April 2014. I hope that that addresses the hon. Gentleman’s question.

[Robert Flello]

The Secretary of State is being extremely generous with his time. Will he clarify why overseas hauliers are not required to pay for a year up front, but can pay on a daily, weekly or monthly basis? Is there a legislative reason why they cannot be asked to make an annual up-front payment, as with VED?

[Mr McLoughlin]

Overseas hauliers will pay in advance of coming to this country. However, asking somebody who is bringing a lorry over for a day to pay for a full year would be quite unfair. We are therefore allowing them to pay daily, weekly or yearly. Most HGV drivers who come to this country regularly will find it much more convenient and a lot cheaper to pay for the year than to pay for each individual day. I hope that that clears up the hon. Gentleman’s point.

The Bill states that HGVs weighing more than 12 tonnes will have to pay a duty of excise levied by the Secretary of State if they are used or kept on a public road within the United Kingdom. It will be known as the HGV road user levy. It will be charged to allow both UK-registered and foreign-registered vehicles to use our roads. The levy applies to all roads in the UK. However, clause 3 provides the power for the Secretary of State to exempt specific roads from the charge by way of statutory instrument, should the need arise.

Clause 4 sets out the liability for the levy. For HGVs registered in the UK, liability for paying the levy will lie with those in whose name the vehicle is registered and with the person keeping the vehicle. That applies the principle used for vehicle excise duty in section 1 of the Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994. That allows for the levy on UK-registered vehicles to be paid at the same time as vehicle excise duty. For non-UK-registered HGVs, the person who holds the Community licence for the vehicle and the person who keeps the vehicle are liable to pay the levy. For both UK-registered and non-UK-registered vehicles, when two or more people are liable to pay the levy, they are jointly and severally liable.

Clauses 5 and 6 set out the methods of payment for UK-registered and non-UK-registered vehicles. For UK-registered vehicles, the levy will be paid either yearly or half-yearly at the same time as vehicle excise duty. Where appropriate, rebates may be made for vehicles that are stolen or destroyed. The circumstances under which a rebate will be available and the method of calculating the value of a rebate, together with other conditions that must be met to make a claim, are covered in clause 7.

Some types of rigid vehicle weighing less than 12 tonnes will be exempt from the charge. The Bill also provides powers to allow the Secretary of State to make regulations that exempt some categories of HGV from the charge.

Collection and enforcement of the charge, and related elements, are covered in clauses 9 to 16.

[Huw Irranca-Davies]

Before the Secretary of State continues, will he clarify one point? Again, I am happy to be corrected. I believe that the Bill sets out that different and potentially higher levels may be charged for weekly or monthly payments for non-UK HGVs. I am not against that. However, will he give a cast-iron guarantee that it does not infringe any anti-discrimination trade provisions within the EU?

[Mr McLoughlin]

Yes, we have covered that. The hon. Gentleman is obviously going to take part in this debate and may well find himself on the Public Bill Committee in due course, so he will be able to cover that point in much more detail. I am glad that the Committee is tempting and am sure that the Opposition Whip has made a note of his details. [Interruption.] Was the hon. Gentleman making a request to be on the Committee? Perhaps he would like to share it with the House.

[Huw Irranca-Davies]

Regrettably, I have to inform the House that I am on another Committee.

[Jim Fitzpatrick (Poplar and Limehouse) (Lab)]

rose—

[Mr McLoughlin]

I give way to the hon. Member for Poplar and Limehouse (Jim Fitzpatrick).

[Jim Fitzpatrick]

We are grateful to the Secretary of State for trying to recruit our members of the Committee. Much as I would love to see my hon. Friend the Member for Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies) on it, I think that the Secretary of State should leave it to us and the Whips.

[Mr McLoughlin]

I apologise to the Opposition. I was going back to my old territory, which I must not trespass on any longer. I am glad that we have managed to smoke out the hon. Member for Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies) as to his willingness and availability. I am sure that he gives distinguished service to the other Committee. I must check which it is after this debate.

The level of vehicle excise duty evasion among UK hauliers is extremely low at less than 1% of vehicles. I have no reason to anticipate that that will change once the levy is introduced. To reduce the administrative burden, the levy will be paid at the same time as VED. We have looked at ways to make the introduction of the levy cost-neutral for UK hauliers. To do that, we will reduce the level of VED to take account of the new charge. That reduction will mean that an estimated 94% of UK hauliers will pay no more than they do at the moment and that 98% will pay no more than an additional £50 a year. Clause 15 allows the Secretary of State to refuse to issue a tax disc when the appropriate levy has not been paid. That will lead to vehicles being unlicensed, which brings the associated penalties of immobilisation, removal and disposal.

For foreign-registered hauliers, a system will be procured to allow the levy to be paid online before the vehicle enters the country. The levy is based on the length of time, so visiting hauliers will have to select the period for which they will be using UK roads. The options will go from a single day to a year. Once a haulier has paid the right fee, the payment record will be entered automatically into a database, allowing enforcement agencies to check the status of any HGV using UK roads. Information relating to whether a vehicle has paid the levy will be made available publicly.

There is a risk of foreign hauliers evading the new charge. We will ensure that the Vehicle and Operator Services Agency, which will enforce the charge in England, Wales and Scotland, and the Driver and Vehicle Agency, which will enforce the charge in Northern Ireland, are properly equipped to do the job from the start.

[Huw Irranca-Davies]

May I take this opportunity to invite the Secretary of State to join me on the Groceries Code Adjudicator Public Bill Committee at his earliest convenience? Does he foresee any problems in enforcing this wonderful measure owing to the Government’s decision to opt out of the EU directive on cross-border enforcement?

[Mr McLoughlin]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for sharing with us which Committee he is sitting on. The Committee on this Bill will really miss his attention to detail. I have no reason to believe that there will be any of the problems that he mentions. I have assured myself that what we are doing is wholly within the law and within EU competition rules.

For non-UK hauliers, there will be no physical sign of the levy having been paid. I believe that paper discs or similar signs would impose a needless burden and open the door to fraud. One of the main methods that we will use to detect vehicles that have not paid the charge is by linking our automatic number plate recognition cameras to the payment database. The use of that technology will enable quicker checks to be made on all HGVs. The power to install such equipment where it does not exist is being introduced in the Bill by amending the Highways Act 1980, the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984 and the Roads (Northern Ireland) Order 1993 in clause 16.

[Robert Flello]

What will be the situation if an overseas haulier, either deliberately or by omission, does not purchase a sufficient amount of time? What will happen to the load that a vehicle is carrying if it is seized by one of the agencies?

[Mr McLoughlin]

Drivers will know that they have to pay the levy before they come into the country. If they fail to pay, the measures available to the enforcement agencies will be used. I make no apology for that. If they think that they will be here for three days, they should pay for three days.

[Michael Connarty (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (Lab)]

Will the Secretary of State give way?

[Mr McLoughlin]

Very briefly.

[Michael Connarty]

Who will be fined? Will it be the driver or the owner of the vehicle? If it is a hired vehicle, who will suffer the fine?

[Mr McLoughlin]

The driver is responsible for ensuring that the vehicle that he is driving is covered. He is in charge of the vehicle.

The penalty is currently set at £200 and would also be paid in situations where the levy had been underpaid—if someone had declared a lower vehicle weight limit, for example, or the wrong number of axles. Clause 13 inserts the offence in schedule 3 of the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988, which lists the offences for which fixed penalties can be given.

Where there is frequent non-compliance by a specific vehicle or haulage company, clause 11 will allow for the imposition of a fine up to category 5 on the standard scale—currently £5,000—when someone is convicted of failing to pay the levy. I hope that those measures, coupled with active enforcement, will be seen as a suitable deterrent. Collected fine revenues will be paid into the Consolidated Fund; there was a lot of debate on that when we discussed the Ways and Means resolution.

I am sure the House will agree that by creating fair competition for the UK haulage industry, the Bill will help finally to put right a wrong. I commend the Bill to the House. It is well overdue and should have been introduced some time ago.

[Jim Fitzpatrick (Poplar and Limehouse) (Lab)]

It is good to see the Secretary of State in his place for this Second Reading debate, and my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham South (Lilian Greenwood) and I are delighted to see all three Conservative Ministers from the Department for Transport here this afternoon. By leaving a Liberal Democrat Minister in charge of the shop, the coalition Government have made a statement of their trust and confidence—or perhaps he has been given the afternoon off.

[Mr McLoughlin]

I think the hon. Gentleman will find that the Under-Secretary of State for Transport, the hon. Member for Lewes (Norman Baker), is responding to a debate in Westminster Hall.

[Jim Fitzpatrick]

I am sure he would be under suspicion—no, I beg your pardon—I am sure he will be watched wherever he goes, because of the excellent job that he does as the senior and longest-serving Minister in the Department for Transport, having survived from 2010. I welcome his new colleagues to their places.

The Secretary of State took something like 18 minutes to move the Second Reading, which is par for the course. According to Hansard from 23 October 2012, column 861, the Under-Secretary, the hon. Member for Lewes, took a minute to move the Ways and Means motion—it actually felt like a lot less than a minute, but he was just procedurally introducing that debate.

The Secretary of State graciously said that both main parties have wanted to introduce this legislation, and I am sure he is aware that in my speech on the Ways and Means motion, I commended the coalition Government for finding a way to introduce this welcome measure.

I do not want to detain the House too long, because I spoke for 18 minutes during the debate on the Ways and Means motion—that was my Second Reading speech and is contained in columns 861 to 865 of Hansard from 23 October 2012, should anybody wish to look at it. We covered a lot during that debate, including road exemptions that the Secretary of State is implementing in clause 3(2). We covered hypothecation at length, and I am sure we will return to that in Committee. We spent a bit of time on road safety—particularly cycle safety—and whether the money raised from the scheme could be devoted to that. We also raised the Secretary of State’s discretion in clause 7(9), and asked questions about short sea shipping and moving freight from road to rail—we will continue to ask about that. We asked questions about the contract for running the scheme, the technology involved, and who is making the arrangements. Cross-border enforcement, which my hon. Friend the Member for Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies) raised a moment ago, was also part of the discussion.

A number of issues were raised during that debate. The Under-Secretary of State for Transport, the hon. Member for Wimbledon (Stephen Hammond) answered most of those points, although some were left without a response on the basis that they were detailed matters. I am sure we will look at those in Committee. In principle, however, the Opposition support this measure. We will want to look at the detail when the Bill goes to Committee, but we welcome its arrival in the House this afternoon.