Economy: Remittances

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Excerpts

Thursday 4th February 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Alton of Liverpool]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the impact of remittances (1) on the United Kingdom economy, and (2) from the United Kingdom to the economies of developing countries.

[The Minister of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)]

My Lords, remittances are a significant source of funds for developing economies and have a positive impact on the UK economy. Money service businesses trade around £1.8 trillion daily through the UK. The World Bank estimates that in 2019 UK remittances totalled around £23 billion, £8 billion more than the UK overseas assistance budget. Remittance payments typically flow to households and increase income and resilience to economic shocks. Let me assure noble Lords that the UK is committed to working with the G7 and G20 to ensure that remittances are sent as cheaply, accessibly and securely as possible.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB) [V]]

My Lords, with the total value of remittances to low and middle-income African countries three times higher than official development aid—which is now being cut—and with a dramatic Covid-related reduction in remittances in 2020, will the Minister look at the gains that could be made by remittance matching and cutting the 6.5% cost in fees when sending remittances from the UK to meet the UN goal of 3%? Will he also say what the Government are doing to follow up the recommendations in chapter 5 of the International Relations and Defence Committee’s report on sub-Saharan Africa relating to remittances?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

On the noble Lord’s first point, I can give him that assurance. The cost of transactions for remittances in Q4 2020 stood at 6.48%, which is beyond the SDG target. We will use our presidency of the G7 and G20 in pursuit of that aim. He is right to raise the report, which I have looked at carefully, and the work that needs to be done in that respect. As we said in our response to the International Relations and Defence Committee’s report in September, we are committed to supporting innovative mechanisms that can leverage sustainable sources of finance.

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Faulkner of Worcester) (Lab)]

The noble Baroness, Lady Stuart of Edgbaston, does not appear to be on the call, so I call the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay of St Johns.

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I welcome what the Minister has said so far. What opportunities have the Government identified specifically to support greater access to local secure remittances as a consequence of their work with the World Bank and the UK’s Financial Sector Deepening Africa programme?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, we are committed to working with the World Bank. It is noticeable that the World Bank has talked about the challenge of the decline in remittances. Across the key countries, including in sub-Saharan Africa, we are working to ensure prioritisation of access and looking at more innovative schemes. Last year, as my noble friend will recall, we launched an initiative with Switzerland in this respect.

[Viscount Waverley (CB)]

My Lords, I offer the Minister an innovative idea, to which he referred. Given the pressure on overseas development budgets and programmes to create growth and employment, might it be time to consider that the global tax system should be turned around and restructured, whereby taxes are not paid to a country where a company is domiciled but remitted to, or shared with, the origin country in which a purchase was placed or a service delivered? Would the Minister conceivably advance this thought to the powers that be as a possible G7 discussion over a Cornish pasty?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

I assure the noble Lord that I will do just that.

[Baroness Whitaker (Lab) [V]]

While the whole amount of remittances is clearly more than UK aid to developing countries, it is not targeted at national strategic objectives being mainly used for housing and business development. Have the Government been able to make any analysis of the proportion of remittances that went to those sectors, or education?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness raises an important point. Our priority for remittances has been key countries across the world, in Africa and Asia in particular, and key sectors focused on the most vulnerable. I will write to the noble Baroness with a specific breakdown if that is available.

[Baroness Sheehan (LD) [V]]

My Lords, the sustainable development goal target is to reduce the transaction costs of migrant remittances to less than 3%. However, the most recent data from Our World in Data tells us that countries in sub-Saharan Africa were, at 9%, paying the highest remittance costs of any region as a proportion of the amount remitted. This is morally repugnant. As well as raising the subject at the G7, will the Minister raise it with his colleagues at the Treasury?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, let me assure the noble Baroness that, in preparation for the G7, we are working across government to ensure that the targets, including the SDG target of 3%, can be met—and we will work to ensure that other countries also commit themselves to that.

[Baroness Sugg (Con) [V]]

My Lords, acknowledging the significance of remittances is particularly important at the moment, with the global impacts of Covid-19 and as our own development assistance to low-income countries is being cut so substantially, so I welcome my noble friend’s reassurance that this subject will be discussed at the G7. There are many stakeholders who need to be involved in improving the ease and cost of remittances, and some years ago the Government established the Action Group on Cross Border Remittances, chaired by Sir Brian Pomeroy, which brought those groups together. Can my noble friend tell me whether that group continues its important work and, if not, what it has been replaced by?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I pay tribute to my noble friend’s work in this area. The action group last met in person in 2019. Its current membership and format are under review, and I will, of course, share with her the outcomes of those discussions.

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, this issue is, of course, one of the untold benefits of migration. As the noble Lord, Lord Alton, said, it accounts for three times the amount of FDI and ODA flows. Last year, the UN Conference on Trade and Development forecast that ODA and FDI flows will have contracted by 40%. To pick up the point made by my noble friend, what steps is the FCDO taking to ensure that funds that are remitted are turned into productive investment and help pave the way to economic prosperity for all?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I share the noble Lord’s opinion. Indeed, in my own family, when my father first arrived in the early 1950s, remittances were an important part of supporting his family in the sub-continent. In answer to the noble Lord’s specific point, remittances have been shown to be more resilient than, for example, capital flows—but they also tend to be countercyclical. As for the specifics of where they are going, they are aimed at the most vulnerable; as I said, there is further information on the sectors available, and I will share that with him.

[Lord Hastings of Scarisbrick (CB)]

My Lords, the Minister has admitted how vital remittances are to individual communities and families. Yet most of that money is used on basic purchasing and family needs. Will the Government look at exploring the possibility with the banks both here and there—wherever “there” is—a holding pools investment strategy to make money from the money while it is being transferred, and pre-transfer, and put that into jobs, trade and infrastructure? Will the Minister meet me to discuss this?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

Of course, I look forward to meeting the noble Lord on that last point. We are looking at particular processes, especially in countries such as Ghana, Nigeria and Somalia, and I am sure that will form the basis of our discussions.

[Lord Risby (Con) [V]]

My Lords, does my noble friend agree, particularly in current circumstances, that it would be desirable to have an international drive to scale up digital solutions, complete with the integration of fintech, if we are to be more innovative in facilitating less costly cross-border transactions?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I agree with my noble friend. The UK supports the Financial Stability Board’s work to enhance cross-border payments, and we will work through the ambitions set at the last G20. I have alluded to the work of the G7; as I said, the UK encourages innovative fintech solutions connecting cross-border mobile wallets, because it is much easier and cheaper to send remittances in that way. We support that objective.

[Lord Oates (LD)]

My Lords, the Minister will be aware of the figures showing a very significant reduction in the level of remittances, and the wider impacts of coronavirus on the economies of lower-income countries. In light of those figures, can he conceive of a worse possible time for the Conservative Party to decide to betray its manifesto commitment on 0.7%, when the poorest people in the world are in the greatest need?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, on the noble Lord’s last point, we have had various discussions on the announcement made on the reduction in ODA. As I have said before from the Dispatch Box, we will look to return at the earliest opportunity to 0.7%—but the fact is that we will still be spending one of the highest sums of any G7 country, amounting to £10 billion, on our ODA commitments. Equally, on the subject that we are discussing today—remittances—we are working, and indeed leading the world, in innovative solutions to reduce the cost of transactions and increase the number of remittances. As I said in my original Answer, remittances far outweigh ODA in developing parts of the world. Our eight countries of priority reflect the very objectives of our ODA spend, which is helping the most vulnerable around the world.

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Faulkner of Worcester) (Lab)]

My Lords, all supplementary questions have been asked, and we now move to the next Question.

Burma: Military Coup

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Excerpts

Tuesday 2nd February 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, in begging leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper, I declare that I am vice-chairman of the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Democracy in Burma.

[The Minister of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)]

My Lords, we wholeheartedly condemn this coup. The military seizure of power, detention of the State Counsellor and other political and civil society leaders, and attempts to undermine the legitimacy of recent election results are totally unacceptable. We are pressing for confirmation of Aung San Suu Kyi’s safety, the urgent release of civilian leaders and the peaceful reconvening of the national assembly. The results of the 2020 election must be respected.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, I welcome the statement that the Minister has just made to the House. He is right robustly to condemn the military coup in Burma and the incarceration of Aung San Suu Kyi. However, will he go further? What steps have Her Majesty’s Government taken to make it clear to the military that, unless it reverses course, respects the election result, releases those who have been arrested, reinstates Ministers and returns to a constitutional parliamentary system, engaging in dialogue with the National League for Democracy to chart a peaceful course towards political progress in Burma, the UK will impose robust targeted sanctions not only on military leaders but on military enterprises and assets?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, on the noble Lord’s final point, he will be aware that the UK, along with other European partners, led on the sanctions that were imposed. Indeed, the current head of the military and his deputy have sanctions against them. Let me assure the noble Lord that we are looking at all actions. Later this afternoon we are convening, as president of the UN Security Council, an emergency meeting on the situation in Myanmar, and we are also talking to allies quite directly about further steps that can be taken.

[Baroness Nye (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, the Burma Campaign UK, in which I declare an interest as a board member, has received many messages from within Burma for concerted and robust international action. The Minister will know that the Magnitsky sanctions do not target the financial interests of the military but are, effectively, a holiday ban for 16 generals during the pandemic. Will the British Government join the new Biden Administration in the US and review our policy on economic sanctions as well as supporting a ban on all, but especially British, companies doing business with companies owned by the military, and work towards a coalition on a global arms embargo?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, let me assure the noble Baroness that we are working closely with our allies, including the United States, in this respect. I have already outlined the first action that we have taken as president of the UN Security Council. On the issue of the international arms embargo in Myanmar, let me also assure the noble Baroness that, at the end of the transition period, the specific restrictions that applied as part of our membership of the EU were rolled forward into domestic law. Of course we will consider any further action that needs to be taken in this respect.

[Baroness Northover (LD)]

My Lords, the military coup in Myanmar is hugely worrying, so can the noble Lord say more about how the Government are building a coalition of countries willing to impose embargos, as others have mentioned, and sanctions, and also protection for the Rohingya, who will now be in even greater danger, including by joining the genocide case at the International Court of Justice?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, on the noble Baroness’s final point, of course we are very supportive of the action at the ICJ, and we are looking at the situation of a formal intervention. Myanmar was supposed to come back in January, I believe, with its challenge to the action. We have not yet been formally been told of that, but I understand that it has been put in by Myanmar. In terms of international coalitions and actions, as I have already alluded to, we are working with international partners and directly with the Myanmar Government—yesterday my honourable friend the Minister for Asia summoned the Myanmar ambassador to convey the sentiments that I expressed in my original Answer.

[Lord Sarfraz (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I have spoken to several people in Myanmar who are now terrified of what lies ahead. Could my noble friend reassure the House that Her Majesty’s Government will use all the tools at their disposal and keep all options on the table to ensure that the Rohingya and other minorities in Myanmar are adequately protected? These include the ongoing ICJ action but also the ICC action, the universal jurisdiction case and working constructively with those countries that have influence over Myanmar’s military.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I can assure my noble friend that we are working as he has suggested. Among those that exert the greatest control over the military authorities in Myanmar is China, and it is important that China, as an important member of the international community, also recognises the election and that the civilian Government should be restored to their position of government as soon as possible. On the issue of the Rohingya, which the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, mentioned, we will of course keep that at the forefront of our considerations as penholders, and I am looking to engage with Bangladesh on this important issue hopefully later this week.

[Baroness Cox (CB) [V]]

My Lords, is the Minister aware that I visited Burma many times to provide aid and advocacy for ethnic minorities suffering offences by the Burmese army? Just today, I have spoken to colleagues inside Burma, who report continuing attacks by the Burmese army in Kachin, northern Shan and Kayin states, with thousands of displaced people. My colleagues’ urgent requests are for the international community to engage directly with leaders of ethnic groups and for aid to be sent across borders to them and to NGOs working with them, as aid sent to the Government will not reach those in greatest need. Will the Minister give some reassurance regarding these urgent and serious requests?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness and I have often spoken about these important issues. In light of the coup, the Foreign Secretary has today announced a review of all support, including that sent to the Myanmar Government, with a view to suspend it unless, as the noble Baroness has suggested, there is direct exceptional humanitarian reasons not to do so. We will be working with people and NGOs on the ground to ensure that vital humanitarian access.

[The Lord Bishop of St Albans [V]]

My Lords, many of us have spoken out over recent months for the protection of Rohingya Muslims. There is a deep worry at the moment that the Government of Bangladesh may continue their repatriation of the refugees. Are Her Majesty’s Government talking with Bangladesh? Also, what are the prospects for freedom of religion or belief, not least for the Christian minorities in the country, who are under threat at the moment?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, on the issue that the right reverend Prelate raises of freedom of religion or belief in Myanmar, the situation is, frankly and very candidly, dire—there is no other word that I can use for that. On the situation with Bangladesh, as I have already alluded to, we are looking to engage directly with the Bangladeshi authorities, but equally they have stated their support for the democratically elected civilian Government.

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, the Government’s decision to bring forward a UN Security Council meeting is very much welcome, and so is the announcement by President Biden that his Administration are considering sanctions. Obviously, I hope that we will be working closely with the US and other allies on this matter. It is vital that the international community imposes the toughest kind of sanctions, including on the enterprises owned by the generals and their families, because it is that network that will have the real big impact. I hope that the Minister will reassure the House that we will do that and get collective international action.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I can assure the noble Lord that we are working closely with our allies in this respect. We will look at a range of measures, with the aim of ensuring that the wishes of the Myanmar people are fully respected, including for the release of civil society leaders. We also want to consider measures that move us towards that end. It is a fluid situation, but we are establishing the exact facts on the ground. I assure the noble Lord that we are working very quickly, as demonstrated by our convening of the UN Security Council.

[Lord Dholakia (LD)]

My Lords, the Minister has rightly mentioned our term in the rolling presidentship of the UN Security Council, where it is possible that the matter will be discussed today. While there is hardly any good word to say about Aung San Suu Kyi, given the way that she has behaved on the expulsion of Rohingya Muslims, there is hardly likely to be any co-operation from the countries of the Pacific zone; China and some neighbouring countries have already made comments that are not very helpful. Has the Minister had any discussion with the countries of the European Union about whether a targeted action can be taken at this time, as with the two generals?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, on the noble Lord’s last point, there is already concerted European action—specific sanctions on both the general and his deputy. On the wider point on Aung San Suu Kyi, he is quite right that we have had challenges and we have expressed deep regrets, through interactions by the current Foreign Secretary and his predecessors, about her lack of condemnation of the situation of the Rohingya. Nevertheless, she is the civilian elected leader, and she should be restored. My right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary was due to speak to her on that very issue later this week, but, of course, that is not taking place at the current time.

[Lord Marlesford (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I was working in Burma in 1962 when General Ne Win took over the Government. At that time, the Burmese military were completely naive; they asked a friend of mine in Rangoon University to draft them a manifesto, which he called The Burmese Way to Socialism, but we ended up with more than 40 years of what was, in fact, fascism. Does the Minister recognise that that is the danger now, and will he try to get the United Nations Security Council to recognise this in approving an appropriate resolution? Normally, Russia and China might be hesitant to support it.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, my noble friend’s personal insights are valuable. Indeed, I recall visiting Myanmar just after the first election and what he talks about—the lack of governance, the inexperience of state institutions and the inability to govern effectively—was very clear to me. I take note of what my noble friend says and, of course, today’s meeting is focused specifically on Myanmar.

[Lord Kilclooney (CB)]

My Lords, first, is not the failure of the Chinese Government to criticise and condemn the military takeover in Myanmar shameful, and a warning to neighbouring nations, such as the Philippines, Indonesia, Taiwan, Japan and South Korea, about China’s attitude towards democratic nations? Secondly, in most elections there are external observers. Were there external observers for this election in Myanmar? The army is using the excuse that it was an unfair election. If there were external observers, was their report favourable or unfavourable?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I note what the noble Lord said about China. We appeal to China, as a member of the international community, to ensure that the democratically elected Government are restored to their position of governing the people. The 2020 elections were an important milestone on Myanmar’s path and were monitored by international and local observer groups.

[Baroness Whitaker (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, following the questions of the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of St Albans and several others, can the Minister confirm that the Government of Bangladesh have definitely undertaken not to send Rohingya people back to Myanmar while they are at risk?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I can assure the noble Baroness and the whole House that in all my interactions as Minister for South Asia with the Bangladeshi Government I stress that the voluntary, safe and dignified return of the Rohingya community is paramount on any ask that they make. They have again been reassuring on that point. I have not spoken to them specifically over the last day or so, but I am seeking urgent engagement on this very point.

[Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate (Non-Afl) [V]]

My Lords, I congratulate the Minister on his robust response to the Question of the noble Lord, Lord Alton. This outrage is rightly condemned and the world should unite in calling it out. Is there any point in raising this assault on democracy in the Security Council, as has been said, given the lukewarm response so far from China and Russia? Listening to the reports of the overthrow of this democratically elected Government in Burma, the reason given was that the election last November was rigged. I racked my brains to remember when I had last heard this reason and, of course, I recalled that in the United States, the symbolic seat of power was attacked. Does the Minister share the thought that, facing a clear defeat, the tactic of alleging a fraudulent election comes straight from the playbook of the former President of the United States in exactly the same month of 2020?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I shall not comment on all the questions raised by the noble Lord. I agree with him, but I also believe that it is important we have a UN Security Council debate on this.

[Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale (Lab)]

My Lords, on an additional, very serious point, I visited Myanmar just before the previous set of elections, and there was deep worry on the ground that, should there be uncertainty and instability after the election at that time, the people who would suffer most would be those who need, for example, international supplies of HIV medication and that sort of humanitarian support. So, will the Government, in their discussions at the UN Security Council, look not just at the democratic and constitutional issues at stake here but ensure that the UN agencies that provide humanitarian support inside Myanmar are able to continue to do so during this crisis?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, first, in terms of direct financial aid to the Myanmar Government, as the noble Lord will know, we do not provide any such support. We do provide, as he is aware and rightly articulates, targeted support, working through international organisations and multilateral bodies. As I said earlier, in light of the coup the Foreign Secretary has today announced a review of all indirect support involving the Myanmar Government. However, we retain the importance, as I said earlier, of humanitarian aid getting through and will continue to work on that basis.

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Duncan of Springbank) (Con)]

My Lords, despite it being a near-run thing, noble Lords managed to ask all the questions in this allocated slot. We are not going to adjourn, but we will take a small breather to allow people to move in and out of the Chamber.

The UK’s Relationship with the Pacific Alliance (International Relations Committee Report)

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Excerpts

Monday 1st February 2021 Grand Committee

[The Minister of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)]

My Lords, I join other noble Lords in thanking my noble friend, Lord Howell, for tabling this important debate on the Pacific Alliance, and the International Relations Committee on its excellent report on this subject. I join others in paying tribute to it.

The noble Lord, Lord Hannay, and others, including the noble Baroness, Lady Quin, raised the delay between the publication of the report and the debate today. I followed up on this specifically, in preparation. The government response was not delayed; it was issued on 2 September 2019. Where the challenge has been is in the tabling of the debate, and I shall take that point back to see how we can make a much more effective response in terms of the timing of a debate on a report that has been produced. I think we all accept that last year was an incredibly different one for all of us, not least for the parliamentary authorities. Nevertheless, there is always the point that we can do better—and certainly I take the point on other debates. I shall reflect on that and ensure that we can do this in a more efficient manner. Of course, I look forward to discussions through the usual channels on tabling these debates in a timely fashion.

As the Minister for reassurance—it can be added to my portfolio after today’s debate—I reassure noble Lords that, as I go through my comments, I shall be able to provide some detail behind some of the strengthening of our relationships with these important countries. As the noble Lord, Lord Bilimoria, and others have said—my noble friend Lord Kirkhope also alluded to this—this is part of our broader global Britain strategy. Indeed, as we look towards the Pacific, one major area of my focus as the Minister responsible for south Asia has been on our Indo-Pacific strategy across all areas, many of which noble Lords have touched on. Those include issues of security, including maritime security, which was an area that was focused on, to ensure that we regard the Pacific as an important partner as we build global Britain’s strength. We will continue to work with partners across the Pacific in strengthening this. Indeed, our wider alliances include our application for dialogue status in ASEAN, the fact that we now have a post in Jakarta and an ambassador specifically to ASEAN underlining the important broader focus that the United Kingdom Government attach to our relationships in that region.

In response to the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, I think we have all recognised the challenge but also the opportunity presented with the new trade agreement with our partners within the European Union. We will continue to work closely with our friends and partners in the European region, with a broad set of priorities, in the context of some of the areas of trade that we have talked about as well as broader issues of security and human rights. That will continue, and it should not be perceived as a detriment in any way that there is an opportunity to strengthen relationships elsewhere.

When the committee wrote this report 18 months ago, as many noble Lords have reflected, nobody had an idea of how our world would be turned upside-down by the pandemic. It is shocking to think that it is almost a year since we went into that first lockdown, and how the world has changed. Thanks to the incredible efforts of our scientific community, we can see the light at the end of the tunnel—but for now we continue to suffer devastating loss of life and severe economic impacts, both here in the UK and, indeed, across Latin America.

The noble Lord, Lord Purvis, in his excellent summing up, talked about the importance of the security narrative, strengthening our partnerships with countries across Latin American and the Pacific. I stand by that; when we look at the issues of the pandemic, as my right honourable friend the Prime Minister has said, we went into this together—and the way to come out of it is by working collaboratively together. In that regard, the ravages of the pandemic have only strengthened the need for co-operation with our friends and partners. The only way in which to defeat this virus and be ready for future pandemics is by working together with transparency and good will.

In this regard, my noble friend Lady Anelay talked about the Prime Minister and the new appointment of my noble friend Lord Frost. She asked an obvious question about strengthened co-operation, and I think it bodes well for the strengthened focus on international relationships and trade partnerships in post-Brexit Britain that the Prime Minister has appointed my noble friend to this role. As the noble Lords, Lord Purvis and Lord Collins, said, it is about the importance of each tenet of diplomacy, defence and development in our approach to global Britain.

So what are we doing? In recent months, just on the Covid pandemic—to reassure the noble Lords, Lord Hain and Lord Boateng, and the noble Baroness, Lady Goudie—my honourable friend Minister Morton has co-hosted a series of seminars on equitable access to the vaccine with countries including Mexico and Chile, both members of the Pacific Alliance, as well as Argentina. Notwithstanding challenges domestically, the United Kingdom has committed £548 million to the COVAX facility. We continue to stress the importance of all countries signing up to that important instrument. These events brought together country experts and Ministers with a multilateral health system, as well as development banks. That illustrates how we are working to tackle the sheer threat as partners.

I also assure the noble Lord, Lord Boateng, that the important issues that he raised, particularly on SDG 5, continue to be a primary focus for the FCDO. I shall talk about Colombia in a moment, and he will see the important work that we have done in that respect. In the Government’s response to the committee’s report, we agreed that Latin America is an increasingly important partner for the UK’s global ambitions. It is one of the most naturally aligned regions in terms of UK values. As my noble friend Lord Howell said, we continue to work, and should strengthen our work, within those regions and should leverage the opportunity presented by our current role as Chair-in-Office of the Commonwealth. I shall explore how we can do that further, as the current Minister of State for the Commonwealth.

I reassure the noble Viscount, Lord Waverley, as well as other noble Lords, including the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, who talked about high-level contact: they may recall that the first visit that my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary made after his appointment on 8 August 2019 was to Mexico. There were challenges for Foreign Ministers during 2020; we have perhaps not been travelling in the way we did. However, I am sure that normal service will be restored in good time, and we will have further debates in this regard. Our commitment to the region has not changed.

The noble Lord, Lord Collins, rightly raised the important issue of climate change. Nowhere do we see that commitment more than in our shared efforts to combat climate change. Latin America is one of the most biodiverse regions in the world, and many countries in Latin America are among those most determined to do what they can to make a difference. Our Pacific Alliance friends are the most ambitious in that regard. Specifically, we are presidents of COP 26, but it was Chile that had the presidency of COP 25, and we are working closely with Chile on co-operation and international discussions.

I turn to our relationship with the Pacific Alliance. As several noble Lords said, our status within the alliance is as an observer state, and we are in good company; 59 countries in total have that status. As noble Lords would expect, as such close partners we are one of the most active and share a joint programme of work across many priorities. The noble Lord, Lord Purvis, and the noble Baroness, Lady Falkner, asked about associate membership. What I can share is that our primary focus on our international arrangements in that part of the world will be initially on the CPTPP. By the way, I was rehearsing that with my nine year-old to see who could say it faster five times over without tripping over it, and I fear that he beat me by a few seconds. However, we will get used to it.

The important thing is that the announcement made by my right honourable friend the Trade Secretary underlines our commitment to the region. In spite of the pandemic and the obvious constraints that it has caused, we had a fruitful relationship with the Chilean presidency, which handed over to Colombia in December. Since the committee published its report, our co-operation with the Pacific Alliance as a group has focused on both finance and education—points well made by several noble Lords, including the noble Lords, Lord Collins and Lord Purvis, in their summing up.

I will give a few other examples. Noble Lords mentioned the importance of fintech. We have worked together in that respect on the development of the environment and regulatory best practices across the alliance, which is crucial for financial inclusion. In the area of education, we launched the English network of the Pacific Alliance with the British Council. I hope that that reassures the noble Lords, Lord McNally, Lord Hain and Lord Purvis—in my capacity as Minister for reassurance—about our continued commitment to the importance of the English language and soft power as we work with countries in the Pacific Alliance on improving English language skills and creating more opportunities. Indeed, I believe that in Peru the British Council reopened in 2015.

Trade was, rightly, a key area of focus. Trade has also continued to flourish. It is an area of huge potential for British business. As we have already heard, Latin America and the Caribbean have a combined GDP of over $5 trillion and their population is 650 million people. Of course, this growth comes with the 21st-century challenges of climate change, delivering inclusive and sustainable development, and building back better from the pandemic. We are supporting British businesses to become partners of choice in the region.

We were reminded by the noble Baroness, Lady Falkner, of the importance of fintech and the broader service sector. Between 2010 and 2019, total trade in goods and services between the UK and Latin America and the Caribbean increased by 17%. In the year to quarter 2 of 2020, it was worth nearly £30 billion. While Covid-19 has undoubtedly affected recent performance, total trade in goods and services between the UK and the Pacific Alliance countries was worth just shy of £10 billion in 2019. In under two years, the UK has secured trade continuity deals with Mexico, Chile, and the Andean countries Colombia, Ecuador, and Peru worth more than £10 billion of trade in 2019. Agreements have also been signed with other countries in the wider region, including South Korea. Currently, we are in discussion on FTAs with New Zealand and Australia.

In addition, the UK is working with Pacific Alliance partners to implement these agreements and has committed to start negotiating a new and ambitious free trade agreement with Mexico later this year. I will again address the point raised by my noble friend Lady Gardner of Parkes: we are ensuring that all sectors are included in this and we recognise the value of the tourism sector, which her contribution demonstrated.

In addition to these continuity agreements, and to further support our bilateral relationships, we have established a series of dialogues with regional partners to boost the trade environment. The inaugural UK-Colombia trade dialogue took place in July 2020, where Ministers agreed to ensure that free and fair trade supports a green and resilient recovery. At the inaugural Anglo-Chilean trade dialogue in October 2020, Ministers also reaffirmed their ambition to increase trade in important sectors such as infrastructure, financial services and life sciences. Other vital work is being done, for example on the issue of double taxation agreements between the UK and Colombia. I am sure my noble friend Lady Hooper, and the noble Baronesses, Lady Falkner and Lady Quin, will be reassured by the importance we continue to attach to fintech. We also believe that the double taxation agreement provides a good basis to allow for greater legal certainty for the UK’s brilliant financial services sector.

The noble Baroness, Lady Quin, the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, and my noble friend Lord Empey, among others, raised the important issue of trade envoys. The noble Lord, Lord Truscott, also talked of co-ordination in this sector. In the interests of time, I will respond later to the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, with a full list of trade commissioners currently working across the world. As we have already heard, we have appointed trade envoys to some of the countries in this particular region. My noble friend Lady Hooper is doing a sterling job with her responsibilities.

On co-ordination, I assure the noble Lord, Lord Truscott, that Her Majesty’s trade commissioners co-operate very closely with Her Majesty’s ambassadors and high commissioners in each country. Indeed, we work very closely across government, at Westminster and in post, to ensure that level of co-ordination and strategic approach. Many will know about Jonathan Knott, who is the new trade commissioner for Latin America, and the Prime Minister’s trade envoys, including my honourable friend Mark Menzies, who covers certain countries in that region. Although it is the Prime Minister’s call, we are looking towards Mexico in the near future in this respect as well.

Mexico, Peru and Chile also form part of the Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership. I say to my noble friend Lord Trenchard, who said that he was going to withdraw from this debate, that when I first heard the acronym CPTPP it was during a Question a couple of years back, I believe, on this very issue. I was very grateful for him for introducing that, and in time I am sure we will all get used to the acronym and be as efficient as my nine year-old in pronouncing it.

Nevertheless, the UK’s accession to the CPTPP is a priority for the Government this year. I feel the noble Lord, Lord Bilimoria, stole my thunder somewhat, but I am pleased to say that today we are submitting our notification of intent to begin the accession process. I hope this also provides the focus requested by the noble Lord, Lord Hain, on the importance of cementing our relationship with the region, which has an increasingly influential trade network of 11 dynamic economies in the Indo-Pacific and Americas region that already account for 13% of global GDP and will rise to 16% with our accession.

I would like to spend the few moments that I have left outlining the importance of our broader relationships with the four countries within the Pacific Alliance. First of all, to assure the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, and others, we are working very closely with the Pacific Alliance countries on issues of climate and COP 26. I would argue that our continuity trade agreements are not a standstill moment but rather add the basis of continuing our strong trade agreements to look to see how we can strengthen our relationships further. It was our work on climate which has, for example, allowed various countries to make quite ambitious commitments on NDCs, and that is something to be celebrated.

The noble Baronesses, Lady Blower and Lady Goudie, and the noble Lords, Lord Browne and Lord Collins, among others, talked of Colombia. We have collaborated closely with Colombia for more than 30 years on issues of security and anti-narcotics work. In recent years, our relationship has broadened significantly. The noble Lord, Lord Boateng, will be pleased to know that we work very closely on issues of women’s empowerment. As with other Pacific Alliance countries, Colombia shares the UK’s ambition when it comes to tackling climate change and deforestation and is a close regional partner. Ahead of COP 26, Colombia has already announced a very ambitious NDC of 51%.

We have also worked very closely with the Colombian Government to help implement the 2016 peace agreement and to improve and protect human rights, as the lead country on the subject at the UN Security Council. Challenges remain, but no one can doubt the vast progress that has been made. I wish to put on record my sincere thanks to the noble Baroness, Lady Coussins, for her continued work with Colombia, and for her valuable insights in helping me plan for my virtual visit to Colombia. It was a positive and collegiate experience, and I was able to appreciate the depth of our relationship.

Chile is another remarkable country: a consolidated democracy which champions free trade. Chile was the first country to conclude a trading agreement with the UK as we prepared to leave the EU. As with Chile, we have also worked closely with Mexico on access to vaccines and across various areas, including various SDGs. I hope the noble Viscount, Lord Waverley, will take note of the important role we attach to Mexico. The noble Lord, Lord Collins, mentioned our relationship specifically on issues of press freedom. Indeed, I have already reached out on that very issue, when it was announced that Mexico would become a member of the UN Security Council.

Finally, Peru is another likeminded partner working across the full range of UK trade, climate and values priorities. The breadth of our relationship sees the UK providing equipment and mobile hospitals to help the Peruvian healthcare sector. The noble Lord, Lord Purvis, talked about the importance of transport links in this respect. I have a sister-in-law who is originally Peruvian, grew up in Peru and works in the airline sector, so I assure the noble Lord that the lobbying in that respect is very clear within the Ahmad household. I assure him in my final few moments that human rights remain high up my focus as Human Rights Minister, and I say to the noble Lords, Lord Hain, Lord Browne and Lord Collins, and the noble Baroness, Lady Coussins, that these will remain a focus. Let me assure the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, that the point he made on indigenous people is well read, and I will certainly reflect on that. I assure my noble friend Lady Anelay that the Ruggie principles remain focused in our mind.

As a final point, on the issue of visas, I ought to say to the noble Baroness, Lady Coussins, the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, and others, that I have of course noted the points which have been made. The Government are engaging with a wide group to hear the priorities, concerns and ideas about how future border and immigration systems can work.

I am really grateful to all noble Lords for the debate that has taken place but particularly to the noble Lord, Lord Howell, for tabling the Motion. Important issues looking to the future, including the issue of Chevening scholars, are well made. I assure the noble Lord, Lord Boateng, and others that we remain very much committed to the next generation and continue to invest in Chevening scholarships, which I believe have tripled from that part of the world in recent years.

Looking to the future, we will continue to work with countries across the Pacific Alliance in areas of shared interest. Much will depend on what we want to achieve and where our priorities lie, but what is certain is that the four countries of the Pacific Alliance both around and beyond the Pacific Alliance will remain important friends, and we look forward to strengthening partnerships with all those countries as part of global Britain.

Alexei Navalny

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Excerpts

Thursday 28th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, first I pay tribute to the courage of the protesters in Russia standing up against corruption. Fifteen months ago, the Government’s response to the Russia report said that

“driving dirty money and money launderers out of the UK is a priority.”

It confirmed legislation to strengthen Companies House, make limited partnerships less open to money laundering and establish a register of beneficial ownership of foreign companies owning UK property. Is this still a priority, and when will we see the promised legislation? What is the timetable for broadening the scope of the Magnitsky sanctions to include corruption?

[The Minister of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)]

My Lords, I am sure that I speak for all noble Lords when I join the noble Lord, Lord Collins, in commending the courage of what we have seen, not just in Moscow but around Russia, in support of Mr Navalny and his early and immediate release from detention. In response to the noble Lord’s question, the Russia report remains a key priority, as I said in your Lordships’ House last week. Our response was issued on the day. In addition to what the noble Lord mentioned, legislation will also enable security services and law enforcement agencies, for example, to tackle early threats of hostile activity. The National Crime Agency offences to criminalise harmful activity will be strengthened. As I said last week, we are reviewing visas in tier 1 issued before 2015. We will be working on the legislative timetable through the usual channels.

On sanctions, the noble Lord will be aware that we have already sanctioned one organisation and six individuals on the issue of the poisoning of Mr Navalny. On the issue of future designations, we will look at egregious abuses of human rights. As the noble Lord is aware, we are currently looking at corruption. We will be looking to see how we can broaden the scope of the sanctions regime in the near future.

[Baroness Northover (LD)]

My Lords, I too pay tribute to Mr Navalny and the other courageous protesters. The noble Lord rightly said that sanctions are most effective when a number of countries jointly implement them. What joint action are they taking with the EU on sanctions in this appalling case, especially given that Mr Navalny was diagnosed in Germany as having been poisoned with Novichok? Does the Minister agree that it would help such joint working with the whole of the EU if the Government recognised the EU envoy as an ambassador?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, on the noble Baroness’s second point, I believe that I have already informed the House that that is currently in discussion with the EU. On the substantive issue of sanctions, I have said that it works in tandem; we are working closely with the EU, not just on the sanctions regime and co-ordination with other allies. On the question about close working with the EU, the noble Baroness will have noted the G7 statement that just went out, which included the High Commissioner from the European Union, underlining the importance we are attaching, within the context of the G7, to the role of the European Union.

[Baroness Blackstone (Ind Lab)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree with Mr Navalny that only if we sanction what he calls “the people with the money”, not those operatives who are obeying orders, will there be any impact at all on the Russian authorities?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

I agree with the noble Baroness. That is why it is a priority for my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary to look at the issues of corruption and illicit finance in the broadening of the global human rights sanctions regime.

[Baroness Nicholson of Winterbourne (Con)]

Can the Minister confirm that, while our Government rightly use sanctions as a weapon against the loss of Mr Navalny’s freedom, the many other links that our cultural heritage shares with Russia will not be harmed? I refer, of course, to our shared music, creative writing, sculpture, university links, and the many other creative ways whereby our citizens and professionals share common bonds and deep enduring friendships. Can the Minister assure the House that sanctions will avoid harming those important channels of mutual growth?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I reassure my noble friend that I agree with her. I am sure I speak for all noble Lords when I say that our challenge and dispute is not with the Russian people. We are standing on their side on their right to representation, and in the protests that we have seen in support of Mr Navalny. There are quite strict criteria for how the sanctions are applied: they are for egregious abuse of human rights.

[Viscount Waverley (CB)]

My Lords, any abuse of human rights and corruption must be condemned and be in the best interests of the Kremlin and the people of Russia. I join the noble Lord, Lord Collins, in calling for a robust debate on policy towards Russia. Will the call for sanctions be expected to bring the desired results, or is it the requisite reaction? Are there any areas of trust in which a workable relationship with the Kremlin can be hammered out with evidence that we, with like-minded partners, have the ear of decision-makers in this regard?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, on the noble Lord’s first point: wherever sanctions have been applied since we introduced them last year, we have seen that people take notice—Administrations and regimes take notice. But there is an important distinction that we, in using that sanctions regime on human rights, pinpoint individuals and organisations specifically, so it is not about standing against a country in its collective form.

On the issue of relations with Russia: of course, we continue to engage directly with Russia. As I have said before, it is a P5 member of the UN Security Council, and there are many issues around the world on security and conflict in which Russia has an important role to play.

[Lord Rooker (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I, too, salute the courage of Alexei Navalny. Nobody is questioning the Minister’s commitment to this issue, but the sanctions have not worked. Sanctioning the people with the money is not necessarily sanctioning the people who have committed the human rights offences. It is Putin’s mates in London receiving the dirty money who we need to go for. The connection to Putin is the thing that will hit them, because while that money is allowed into London in the way it is at the moment—and, outside Europe, London is the centre—Putin can act as he wishes. If we fail to do this, it will start to look like the UK Government are compromised in some way. I do not believe they are, but it will look as though they are.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

As someone who worked in the City of London for 20 years, the integrity and robustness of the structures of the City of London are of paramount importance to me, as they are to the UK Government. Therefore, I share the noble Lord’s view that it is important we take constructive steps to stop the use of illicit financing and stop money flowing through London in the manner he suggests.

[Lord Walney (Non-Afl)]

President Putin’s abhorrent disregard for international law has turned his great nation into a pariah on the global stage. I accept what the Minister said about keeping specific measures under review, but do the Government at least accept that the current suite of measures from the UK and our partners is not, thus far, proving sufficient to rein in this behaviour?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

While I note what the noble Lord has said, the steps we have taken within the context of the OPCW and with the G7 partners does, I believe, demonstrate to the Russians a strong international response. It is important we continue to strengthen our alliances in this respect so Russia does take notice and, more importantly, does so with regard to courageous individuals such as Alexei Navalny, who is being held without detention. Just to update your Lordships’ House: as I was coming in, I was informed that in his hearing, his appeal was not upheld, so he remains in detention. I will, of course, update the House as we get more details. We hope Russia will take note of these international actions, and I believe in certain quarters it is doing just that.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP) [V]]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for updating the House with that news, disappointing though it is. In preparation for this Question, I checked the 2019 Conservative election manifesto, which speaks of the UK being a champion of the rule of law, human rights and anti-corruption efforts. Does the Minister agree that we need to work consistently to have clear, consistent rules dealing with Russia, China, Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates, Thailand and, indeed, the UK Overseas Territories, with Magnitsky-style sanctions and other actions, setting up plans for reaction, if and when standards are breached? I should probably declare my position on the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Hong Kong.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness poses a wide-ranging question about different countries and jurisdictions—she also mentioned the British Overseas Territories. Without generalising, it is important that we look at the specifics of each case, but I understand what she puts forward. We need to have measures to hand, and the human rights sanctions regime is one with which we can act specifically and, importantly, with key partners and allies to ensure individuals or groups who abuse human rights are held to account for their actions. I hope that, in time, as we have discussed today, the broadening of any scope of those sanctions, on the issue of illicit finance, in particular, will also be to the satisfaction of Members of your Lordships’ House.

[The Deputy Speaker (The Earl of Kinnoull) (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, the time allowed for this Question has now elapsed.

EU Ambassador to the UK: Diplomatic Status

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Excerpts

Monday 25th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Ludford]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have to grant full diplomatic status under the Vienna Convention to the European Union’s ambassador to the United Kingdom.

[The Minister of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)]

My Lords, we continue to engage with the European Union on the long-term arrangements for the EU delegation to the UK. I do not wish to pre-empt the outcome of those discussions. I assure noble Lords that we are committed to ensuring that the EU delegation, the head of delegation and staff have the privileges and immunities they need to function effectively. We want a relationship with the EU based on friendly co-operation. The EU delegation has an important role to play in this.

[Baroness Ludford (LD)]

My Lords, this is about whether the Government are treating the new EU partnership with the seriousness it deserves, or whether they are squandering good will—indeed, being “petty”, in the words of the Conservative chair of the Defence Select Committee—at the expense of the UK’s real interests. Not only will the UK be negotiating for years to come to fill the gaps in the TCA, but any easing of the burden of Brexit red tape will require EU co-operation. Can the Minister therefore assure me that the Government are not acting in a misguided belief that they are acquiring leverage, since this will not work, and that they will grant ambassador status?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, on the noble Baroness’s last point, as I indicated in my Answer, we are in discussions with the EU. I share her view: as my right honourable friend the Prime Minister has said, we want to be the best ally and the best partner to the European Union. I assure her that those discussions are being engaged in equally forcefully on our side to ensure that the outcome is optimum for both sides.

[Lord Reid of Cardowan (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I admire the Minister personally, but surely he can see that the Government’s initial decision not to grant full status to the EU ambassador will be seen by the rest of the international community as peevish and vindictive. This being Burns Night, I commend to the Minister Robert Burns’s invocation:

“O wad some Power the giftie gie us


To see oursels as ithers see us!

It wad frae mony a blunder free us,

An’ foolish notion”.

Taking that to mind, in the discussions due to take place will he urge his fellow Ministers to reverse this blunder and do the honourable thing?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I welcome the noble Lord’s poetic interlude and value his contribution, as ever. I assure him that the Government have not stated any public position in this regard, apart from the fact that we continue to negotiate and work with the EU on the long-term arrangements. As I said, we desire an optimum outcome that works for both sides.

[Baroness Hooper (Con)]

My Lords, does my noble friend agree that the Government’s decision is gratuitously offensive, not only to the EU authorities in Brussels and the other member states, but to Portugal, our oldest ally, since the ambassador, João Vale de Almeida, is a Portuguese diplomat? Can my noble friend also give us a concrete example of what benefit this unnecessary action will bring this country?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I listened very carefully to my noble friend, as I always do. I assure her that, as I mentioned, we are engaging with the EU on the long-term arrangements for the delegation, which will be by mutual agreement. We have not yet reached that point. I therefore do not wish to pre-empt those discussions, but I reassure her once again that the EU delegation and its head will have all the privileges and immunities they need for their mission to the United Kingdom to function effectively.

[Lord Ricketts (CB) [V]]

My Lords, the UK approved the decision taken by the Council of EU Ministers in July 2010 in setting up the External Action Service that EU delegations in third countries should have

“privileges and immunities equivalent to those referred to in the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations”.

While we were a member state, 142 countries around the world granted this status to EU delegations so that they could do their work effectively. The nature of the EU has not changed. Why is there even an issue to be negotiated with the EU about its status in the UK?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, it is not for me to answer about what other countries offer the EU in terms of privileges and immunities. I can confirm that the EU delegation has the necessary privileges and immunities to enable it to carry out its work in the UK effectively. As I said—noble Lords will acknowledge that this is one of those occasions where I am, in general, repeating the key message I seek to deliver—we are currently live in negotiations with the European Union on this very issue. In no manner should I pre-empt the outcomes of those important discussions.

[Baroness Northover (LD)]

My Lords, I detect an imminent U-turn. As the Minister knows, the UK has worked very closely with EU ambassadors in many countries to make sure that approaches are agreed and pressure is as effective as possible. Will the UK no longer recognise them as ambassadors, further weakening the UK’s ability to muster support for common approaches on issues, including human rights, an area for which he has personal responsibility?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I assure the noble Baroness that we will continue to work with EU representatives across the world, as well as the EU directly, on important priorities and our shared values, including human rights.

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Lord is quite keen to suggest that the difference between the status of nation state embassies and that of international organisations is minor, so can he explain why we are going through this process, which will waste not only the energy of his department but good will by insisting on the latter?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, when the noble Lord rises to speak I often look to his expression. On this occasion it was one of deep concern, accompanied by a frown. I assure him that I hear very clearly what he says. Of course a range of international organisations enjoy privileges and immunities in the United Kingdom, including those for their heads of mission. Because we are where we are with the European Union there is little more I can say at this juncture about the outcome of the discussions, but I assure him and others that we will continue to work with the EU as a key and important partner, and be the best friend and ally to the EU, as my right honourable friend the Prime Minister has said on a number of occasions.

[The Earl of Kinnoull (Non-Afl) [V]]

My Lords, the very first article of the trade and co-operation agreement talks of

“good neighbourliness characterised by close and peaceful relations based on cooperation, respectful of the Parties’ autonomy and sovereignty.”

Could the Minister explain how the Government’s current fence-top position is consistent with this core aspiration of our new and important relationship with the EU?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

I agree with the premise and context of the noble Earl’s question, but I assure him that we are currently in discussions for the very reasons he has articulated. The EU is an important partner to the United Kingdom. At the end of the transition period, our intention is to be the best ally and friend to the EU. We will work in that respect, whether on its status here in the UK or on other key issues. As I said to the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, it will remain an important partner in all respects.

[Lord King of Bridgwater (Con) [V]]

My noble friend has said that he does not wish to pre-empt the negotiations, but I think it will be clear to him from the exchanges so far that not one Member of your Lordships’ House who has spoken so far is not very surprised to find that the status of an ambassador is part of the negotiations. I appreciate the difficult position that my noble friend is in, but may I suggest that this be sorted out as quickly as possible, so that we can live up to the intention of being the best friend and ally?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

As ever, I have listened to my noble friend very carefully and I take note of what he said.

[Lord Jay of Ewelme (CB) [V]]

Does not the Minister agree that it is time now to put aside gesture politics and to focus instead on developing the relations necessary to make a success of, for example, the G7 summit in Cornwall and the climate change summit in Scotland? In both of those, the European Commission will, whether we like it or not, have a major and important role to play.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

Let me assure the noble Lord, who speaks with great insight and experience, that we are doing exactly that. We want to focus on the G7 summit and on the other important priorities that lie in front of us, including dealing with the Covid-19 pandemic and the rollout of the vaccines, and, equally importantly, our planning for the COP 26 in November in Glasgow.

[Lord Liddle (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I have the greatest respect for the Minister, but does he understand that he is completely failing to convince the House of the need for any discussions about the status of the EU ambassador in Britain? Should he not be communicating this to the Foreign Secretary—who, although we have been urged many times by the Front Bench to move on from the Brexit debates and arguments, seems incapable of doing so in his search for cheap points that will go down well with his Brexiteer Back-Benchers?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I work closely with my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary, and, as I said in response to an earlier question, of course I will feed back the sentiments of your Lordships’ House. However, I can speak for my right honourable friend. Over the past year or so I have seen the importance he attaches to our colleagues across the EU and the close working partnerships and friendships he has formed, so I disagree with the noble Lord in both the final element and the premise of his question: that is not the case. We work very closely with the EU collectively, but also with key partners within the EU, most notably Germany and France. My right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary has an important role in leading on those relationships.

[Lord Robathan (Con)]

May I belatedly—I understand that he has been here for some months—welcome the EU ambassador to the United Kingdom, as I welcome the ambassadors of every EU member state? Obviously, though, there is now scope for duplication, because no one will be quite clear where the lines are delineated between the EU ambassador and the ambassadors of the nation states. Can my noble friend tell me which member states have approached the Foreign Office and said that they wish to reduce their representation in the United Kingdom because of the arrival of the EU ambassador?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, the EU’s representation and that of EU member states is very much a matter for the European Union and those member states.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD) [V]]

My Lords, I follow on from the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Robathan. We have talked about the importance of sovereign equality in our relations with the European Union, so do we intend to accept that our representation in Brussels should be reduced both in status and in size? As a point of comparison, the United States regards its representation in Brussels as one of its most important; it is also one of its largest. Do we not think that ours should be similar?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord. I am sure that he will recognise, from his time as a Minister at what was the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, the appointment of the new ambassador to the Permanent Mission at the European Union, who is a very capable official and acts at a very senior level. Indeed, he was centrally involved in the discussions on the new agreement that we have reached with our European Union friends.

[Lord Kilclooney (CB)]

My Lords, is the European Union a state? And is there any non-state organisation that has an ambassador in the United Kingdom? Does the Commonwealth Secretariat, for example, have an ambassador in London? Finally, can a state be represented by two ambassadors? In other words, if the European Union has an ambassador, do all 27 members of the European Union have to withdraw their ambassadors?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I believe that the noble Lord has answered his own question, but, for the record, of course the Commonwealth does not have an ambassador. The Secretary-General is present here and the Commonwealth as an international organisation has a presence, but not in the manner of having an ambassador. Nor does any other international organisation have an ambassador to the United Kingdom. However, I stress that decisions about the EU and its representative voice, whether in the UK or elsewhere, are for the European Union—and of course, through various elements of the multilateral sphere, member states are represented, as is the European Union itself.

[The Deputy Speaker (Baroness Henig) (Lab)]

My Lords, all supplementary questions have been asked.

Prohibition of Nuclear Weapons

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Excerpts

Thursday 21st January 2021 Lords Chamber

[The Lord Bishop of Coventry]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the United Nations Treaty on the Prohibition of Nuclear Weapons.

[The Minister of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government have been clear that they will not sign the Treaty on the Prohibition of Nuclear Weapons. We do not believe that this treaty will bring us closer to a world without such weapons. The Government believe that the best way to achieve our collective goal of a world without nuclear weapons is through gradual multilateral disarmament, negotiated using a step-by-step approach. We must take account of the international security environment and work under the framework of the nuclear non-proliferation treaty.

[The Lord Bishop of Coventry [V]]

I thank the Minister for his reply. Nevertheless, as of tomorrow the TPNW will be no less a reality for the UK than for countries that support it. It will be no less a reality for states that possess nuclear weapons than for those that do not. The UN Secretary-General has described this new treaty as

“a further pillar of the disarmament regime”

and therefore fully compatible with the NPT. I ask the Minister, since the new treaty and its underlying humanitarian motivations will loom large over any future discussion of our non-proliferation responsibilities, what preparations are being made by the Government to engage with it constructively? Will they commit to attend, as an observer state, the first meeting of states party to the treaty, as Sweden and Switzerland are doing?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I hear what the right reverend Prelate says but, to be clear, the United Kingdom will not support, sign or ratify the TPNW. The reasons are very clear to us: it fails to offer a realistic path to global nuclear disarmament and, importantly, risks undermining the effective non-proliferation and disarmament architecture that we already have in place, in particular the work that has already been achieved with key partners on the NPT.

[Baroness Blower (Lab) [V]]

I declare my interest as in the register. I am compelled to repeat the question from the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Coventry. Given the global importance of this treaty, will the Government consider sending in an observer capacity a delegation when the treaty parties convene later this year, whether in person or virtually? Clearly, in observer status the Government might learn something of interest.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I assure the noble Baroness that we are fully aware of the challenges that currently confront us on the global stage and the importance of ensuring that we see non-proliferation. There are major challenges with this treaty, including the fact that it does not look at the existing security architecture, including our obligations to NATO. It does not look at how we deal with the threats from nations such as the DPRK. My Answer was very clear about what our belief is on the treaty. If parties to that treaty engage with us bilaterally, of course, we will continue to engage with them on wide range of matters.

[Lord Walney (Non-Afl)]

The Minister is being characteristically courteous but does he not agree that every Member of this House, not least the right reverend Prelate, has a responsibility not to deceive themselves that this treaty could be an effective mechanism for achieving our shared goal of the elimination of nuclear weapons? Indeed, suggesting that it is undermines that very goal.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I have to disagree with the noble Lord. I accept that the treaty the right reverend Prelate talks about has noble intent but there are existing mechanisms, treaties and obligations that have ensured the decline in the proliferation of nuclear weapons. Indeed, with the treaties that we are part of and the partnerships that we have forged, since the end of the Cold War we have seen a 50% reduction in our own arsenal. While respecting the right reverend Prelate—and, of course, all noble Lords in this House—on this occasion I do not hold the same view.

[Lord Bates (Con)]

I welcome my noble friend’s confirmation that it has never been the policy of Her Majesty’s Government to have the indefinite retention of nuclear weapons but to seek a world free from all nuclear weapons. This is stated in the national security strategy, set out in pillar 2 of the non-proliferation treaty and stated in the first resolution of the UN General Assembly, held 75 years ago this weekend across the road in the Methodist Central Hall. How could my noble friend use this anniversary to advance our declared ambition of the complete elimination of all these weapons of mass destruction before it is too late?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I assure my noble friend, who speaks with a great deal of insight and expertise in this area, that we remain very much committed. Our commitment to our obligations and our adherence to the rules-based system of international law and the treaties that we are part of will ensure the very objective he seeks and I seek as well.

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD) [V]]

My Lords, one of the key aspects of non-proliferation in recent years has been the JCPOA. The UK has been involved in this but under President Trump the US pulled out. What are her Majesty’s Government doing about talking to President Biden about re-engaging in the JCPOA?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, we look forward to fruitful discussions with the United States on a range of issues and look forward to working with it on this important priority as well.

[Lord Polak (Con)]

Following on from that question, only this week Her Majesty’s Government stated as part of the E3 that they are deeply concerned by Iran’s announcement that is producing uranium metal. There is no credible civilian use for uranium. Will my noble friend the Minister take the earliest opportunity to discuss with his new counterpart in the Biden Administration how to strengthen any deals with Iran to ensure the disbanding of its nuclear programme in its entirety and, at the same time, stop its destabilising behaviour in the region?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

I assure my noble friend that on both his points we will be engaging constructively with the United States and other allies in this respect.

[Baroness Deech (CB) [V]]

My Lords, Iran has incrementally violated the JCPOA. It would be delusional to return to it and to drop sanctions. Iran has achieved uranium enrichment levels of 20%. What are the Government doing to ensure that Iran halts this dangerous escalation?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I assure the noble Baroness that Iran’s continued non-compliance with its nuclear commitments is deeply concerning and seriously undermines the non-proliferation benefits of the agreement. Iran faces a stark choice—to continue on its current path and face growing isolation or to come back to the negotiating table. We hope it will choose the latter course.

[Lord Judd (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that any advance that has been made in any of the conventions on nuclear weapons so far has been achieved in the context of firm undertaking by nuclear powers, including us, to steadily reduce the number of nuclear weapons at their disposal? There seems to be quite a lot of room for doubt about the commitment of some nuclear powers at the moment. Is it not a priority for the British Government to get together with the new Administration in the United States, and indeed with the French, to discuss how we should be carrying the new situation forward?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I assure the noble Lord that we will continue to engage with the US and with the P5 process. As he will be aware, we led on that last year. We will work very constructively with the French, who lead on the P5 this year.

[Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer (LD) [V]]

My Lords, for the purposes of investment, this treaty puts nuclear weapons clearly in the category of controversial weapons. Does the Minister agree that investment in such weapons by responsible and ethical pension funds and other investors will quickly become completely unacceptable?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, the nuclear industry and its wider energy benefits are also part of the debate. We remain very committed to a minimum but credible independent nuclear deterrent.

[Lord Ramsbotham (CB) [V]]

My Lords, are the Government aware of the European Leadership Network’s call for a sustained, open-ended and regular panel on strategic nuclear risk reduction?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, if I may, I will respond to the noble Lord in writing once I understand the full context of his question. However, as I have already articulated, we are working with key P5 partners—including the key European partner in this respect, the French.

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Lexden) (Con)]

My Lords, the time allowed for this Question has now elapsed. We come to the fourth Oral Question.

Alexei Navalny

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Excerpts

Thursday 21st January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what representations they have made to the Government of Russia about the arrest of Alexei Navalny.

[The Minister of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)]

My Lords, I begin by extending my best wishes and those of your Lordships’ House for health and happiness to the noble Lord, who I understand is 79 years young today.

It is appalling that Alexei Navalny has been detained on arbitrary charges. We raise his case regularly and directly with the Russian Government. On 15 January, immediately prior to his return, the United Kingdom’s ambassador to Moscow raised our concerns with the Russian foreign ministry. My colleague, Minister Morton, who is responsible for our relations, also raised this issue with her Russian counterpart in November 2020. As the noble Lord will know, the Foreign Secretary issued a statement on 18 January calling for Mr Navalny’s immediate and unconditional release.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op) [V]]

First, I thank the Minister for his very kind words. Returning to the subject, does he not agree that Alexei Navalny has shown tremendous bravery by returning to Russia after the assassination attempt? Will the Minister agree that the Government might show support for his release, backing it up by increasing sanctions against the Putin-supporting oligarchs based in London in relation to their investments, property purchases and travel to the United Kingdom? That would show some real support in trying to get Alexei Navalny out of prison.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I assure the noble Lord that I agree with his sentiments, and I look forward to working with him in this respect. Of course, we keep further sanctions under review but, as he will know, following the poisoning of Alexei Navalny last year, we issued proscriptions against six individuals and the State Scientific-Research Institute of Organic Chemistry and Technology.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

My Lords, Mr Putin constantly challenges the global risk-based order and his behaviour is erratic, whether it is attempts to kill political opponents, such as Navalny, a WMD attack on our nation’s soil, a stream of outrageous damaging global cyberattacks, provoking flights into our airspace, a build-up of nuclear submarines threatening our deterrent, or actions in Ukraine, et cetera. It is difficult to know what he hopes to achieve, but it is certain that there is an increasing risk of miscalculation, which is highly dangerous and could lead to hostilities. Is the Minister concerned about this risk, and should there not be urgent action to rejuvenate arms control agreements, military-to-military dialogue and confidence-building measures, such as New START and the open skies agreement?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Lord speaks with great expertise and insight; I agree with the thrust of what he proposes and the specifics that he mentioned. We want to work with Russia and other partners on the very objectives that he has outlined, but the detention of the main opposition leader demonstrates a continuing decrease in democracy and human rights in Russia, and we will continue to hold it accountable for that.

[Lord Campbell of Pittenweem (LD) [V]]

My Lords,

“Confident political leaders do not fear competing voices, nor”


see the need,

“to commit violence against or wrongfully detain political opponents.”

Those are not my words but those of Mr Mike Pompeo, the outgoing United States Secretary of State, with whom I rarely agree. Does the Minister agree?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I do agree with former Secretary of State Pompeo’s words. That is why we work very closely with the United States in dealing with the issues and challenges that Russia brings to the world.

[Baroness Helic (Con) [V]]

Alexei Navalny’s latest investigation into what he has called the world’s “biggest bribe”—Putin’s sprawling palace at the Black Sea—is a reminder that corruption is endemic in autocracy and that tackling it undermines the rule of strong men such as Putin. With that in mind, will the Government continue to encourage greater transparency over Russian financial activities around the world, including in the United Kingdom, and take steps to combat money laundering? Can my noble friend the Minister update us on the progress that has been made on this since the Intelligence and Security Committee published its report last year?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I apologise: some of my noble friend’s questions were not quite clear. However, I believe that she referred to the ISC report on Russia. As she will know, the Government’s response was published immediately after its release. Russia is a top national security priority for the Government, and we will introduce new legislation concerning the security services and law enforcement. As she will be aware, the Government are currently looking at how our sanctions regime can be further extended to deal with corruption and illicit financing.

[Baroness Meacher (CB) [V]]

My Lords, having worked in a Russian ministry in Moscow for three years in the early 1990s, I am hugely aware of the impact on the Russian people of the appalling treatment of the extraordinarily brave Mr Navalny. How on earth he brings himself to go back to Russia, I do not understand. Will the Government support a statement from our Parliament to the Russian Parliament expressing our strong support for the fundamental rights of Mr Navalny and the Russian people to free speech and freedom of assembly?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, on the principle that the noble Baroness raises, it is absolutely for Parliament to decide on issuing such statements. However, she will have seen the strong statement that we issued with partners on this very issue.

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister said that the Government were keeping matters under review. Returning to the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Helic, it is now 15 months since the publication of the Russia report and the Government have yet to implement even one of the 21 recommendations. There are enormous concerns that the City of London is still acting as a haven for dark money connected to human rights abuses in Russia. What steps will the Government take to ensure that UK businesses are not complicit in human rights violations in Russia?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I believe that I have already addressed, in part, the issues of human rights and sanctions, and of course I will be talking to the noble Lord as we bring forward some of the broader sanction applications. On the report, we have acted. I have already alluded to legislation, and we continue to step up our activity, both domestically and internationally, to tackle illicit finance. The National Crime Agency has increased the number of investigations into corrupt leads and, among other things, the UK has used existing immigration powers in dozens of cases relating to hostile state activity. We will also review all tier 1 investor visas granted before 5 April 2015.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD) [V]]

My Lords, we all recognise that the UK, as a democracy, is far more open to Russian influence than Russia is to British. Does the Minister agree that Russian interference, including finance in British politics, is at least as severe a threat to UK sovereignty as the European Court of Justice? Does he accept that the Government’s response to the ISC report is widely considered to have been “defensive and uninformative”? Can the Government assure us that they are working actively to tighten the law on foreign agents in British politics, on financial contributions from abroad to political parties and on espionage?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I can give the noble Lord that assurance. On the question of interference in elections, he will be aware that various legal matters are already under way, so I cannot speak specifically to those. On the other matters that he raised, I have already said that we are acting, and will be responding, and have already taken steps, as our response to the ISC report has demonstrated.

[Lord Balfe (Con)]

My Lords, Russia, at its own request, rejoined the Council of Europe a few months ago but does not seem to have grasped the fundamental values of that council. Sanctions are really water off the duck’s back. The noble Lord, Lord Collins, came a lot nearer to the truth as to what we need to do if we are going to have an effective impact. Does the Minister agree that we need to join Berlin and Paris in encouraging Russia to follow the principles inherent in democratic societies and the underlying principles of the Council of Europe, which it was so keen to rejoin?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, in the interest of time, I totally agree with my noble friend, and we will work closely with Germany and France in that respect.

[Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate (Non-Afl) [V]]

My Lords, the Russian Federation has failed to respond to the overwhelming evidence that it poisoned the opposition leader using Novichok, for which of course it has previous form. Addressing the EU last year, Alexei Navalny said that sanctions should target the money of the oligarchs who hold Putin’s assets. This lack of adherence to a rules-based international order has gone on for too long. Does the Minister agree now that there should be direct consequences, as suggested by Mr Navalny, for this outrageous breach of all the norms of civilised states, all of which is compounded by the subsequent arrest and jailing of Mr Navalny on his return to his own country?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, suffice to say that I agree with the noble Lord. I add that we have already taken quite specific actions, both through multilateral organisations such as the OPCW and specifically on issues of sanctions related directly to the Novichok poisoning of Mr Navalny. We will continue to work with partners and see what further steps we can take. As those come to bear, I will of course share them with your Lordships’ House.

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Lexden) (Con)]

My Lords, the time allowed for this Question has now elapsed.

Overseas Development Aid: Covid-19 Vaccination

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Excerpts

Thursday 21st January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sarfraz]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to ensure that access to Covid-19 vaccination is available as part of their overseas development aid work to vulnerable people in less economically developed countries.

[The Minister of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)]

My Lords, the United Kingdom has committed £548 million to the COVAX Advance Market Commitment, the AMC, which is the international initiative to support global equitable access to vaccines. Through match funding the commitment was leveraged to encourage other donors to commit $1 billion in 2020. The commitment will support access to Covid-19 vaccines for up to 92 developing countries by contributing to the supply of 1 billion doses, with deliveries set to begin in the first quarter of 2021.

[Lord Sarfraz (Con) [V]]

My Lords, while the United Kingdom has been a strong supporter of the COVAX Facility, the director-general of the WHO has raised fresh concerns about developing countries being left behind. Will Her Majesty’s Government consider approaches to supplement COVAX using our own economic development institutions? For example, could we make UK export finance easily available to countries importing the Oxford vaccine, and could we encourage the CDC to urgently support local vaccine supply chains?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My noble friend makes two very practical points, especially that on the CDC. I will certainly look at what we can do. To be absolutely clear, we remain committed to the COVAX Facility. We want to provide clarity to all that we will continue to support that facility, which we believe has the infrastructure to ensure the best, most equitable and fastest distribution to the most vulnerable around the world. However, my noble friend makes some practical points and I will certainly explore those further.

[Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean (Lab) [V]]

Does the Minister agree that, while priority must be given to vaccinating as many people in the United Kingdom as possible, it is also vital to help protect less developed countries, which may develop other strains of Covid-19 as we have already witnessed? Can the Minister assure the House that the UK Government will not seek any payment for vaccinations or equipment from those countries? Will the Government support them to develop and deploy the skills and expertise that have been developed by our own dedicated scientists and doctors in this country?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

I assure the noble Baroness that, as vaccine distribution picks up pace and other vaccines come online, we remain committed to the COVAX Facility. The noble Baroness puts forward some practical points about British expertise and how this can be further leveraged in terms of support. Regarding specific charges that may be levied, let me assure her that the whole basis of the AMC within the COVAX Facility is to ensure that the most vulnerable are not prohibited from or limited in their access to the vaccine because of a lack of money.

[Baroness Sheehan (LD) [V]]

My Lords, last week Dr Anthony Fauci from the US National Institutes of Health endorsed the WHO’s Covid-19 Technology Access Pool, the C-TAP. This is a key mechanism to support efforts to scale up the manufacture of vaccines for all. We are currently not supporting it. Considering the urgent need to respond to new variants of the virus, will the UK Government follow Dr Fauci’s lead?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I understand from reports coming from the United States that Dr Fauci’s expertise will be fully leveraged within the World Health Organization, as he will be leading the United States delegation now that the US has rejoined the World Health Organization, which we welcome. As details of the Covid-19 Technology Access Pool emerge from the WHO, our Government are committed to assessing how it could add value to existing innovation and access infrastructure such as the Medicines Patent Pool, which we helped to set up 10 years ago. We are looking at it very carefully. We will work closely with the United States and, importantly, the World Health Organization in this respect.

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Faulkner of Worcester) (Lab)]

Baroness Manningham-Buller. No? I call the most reverend Primate the Archbishop of Canterbury.

[The Archbishop of Canterbury [V]]

My Lords, we must welcome warmly the exceptional moral leadership in this remarkable donation to the COVAX programme, which I think is the largest of any country. However, in order to make the money work, and to follow up what the British ambassador, Julian Braithwaite, said at the WHO, we need a global vaccination campaign if we are to overcome this global pandemic. There are three particular obstructions to overcome. One relates to the use of surplus supplies of vaccine; for example, Canada has ordered more than five times what it needs for its population. The second is misinformation, mythical dangers or false stories being deliberately spread about the vaccines. Thirdly, in many parts of the countries that will need the vaccine, there are immense logistical difficulties in distributing it. To make the most of the financial leadership we have set and given our expertise, experience and success in the rollout in this country, what will the Government do to validate that gift by overcoming these three challenges?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, the most reverend Primate makes some very pertinent and important points. On the issue of countries which have oversubscribed, some countries have already announced plans for that. We are not in that position, but others have announced how they will look at distribution. We would implore them to consider that the most equitable way to support that distribution is through the COVAX Facility and the AMC, for the very reasons that have been put forward; namely, that they have the most effective infrastructure and networks to allow for equitable and fast distribution of the vaccine as it is rolled out.

I take fully the most reverend Primate’s point on misinformation. At a time when people are concerned and worried, it is highly regrettable that some in the world are putting out misinformation on vaccines which have already gone through all stages of testing and have been approved. We must come together to tackle that and provide proper information.

The most reverend Primate’s point on logistics was well made. As vaccine distribution continues, we will work through our networks within the FCDO and the UN to further strengthen NGOs; for example, with training and by ensuring that front-line healthcare workers in the field in developing parts of the world are vaccinated first.

[Baroness Chalker of Wallasey (Con) [V]]

I thank my noble friend for the assurances he has given the House about his department. Will he ensure that every effort is made to focus medical help to Africa on preventive vaccines, but not only against Covid-19? Can use be made of the Virtual Doctors organisation, which can assist in setting up a preventive system in African countries?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I can give my noble friend that assurance. My right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary is currently on a visit to Africa, where issues concerning Covid-19 and the vaccine will be addressed directly, as they will be by the Minister for Africa. In her latter point, my noble friend also makes a practical suggestion about distribution. As more vaccines become readily available and distribution evolves, we will take this forward as part of our planning and share it with other partners as well.

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, the great news from Washington this morning is that the US is joining the COVAX facility. I hope this will lead to many more opportunities. Last Friday, I met representatives of the Africa CDC who have more recent experience and expertise in conducting mass public vaccination programmes than do we in the UK. What discussions has the Minister’s department had with organisations in the global south, so that we can learn from them? They also highlighted the secondary economic impacts through healthcare and gender inequality. What preparations is the FCDO making to prevent there being a development mountain to climb after the pandemic subsides?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, on the noble Lord’s second question, he will appreciate that at the Gavi summit we saw a real commitment by the world community, led by the United Kingdom, not just to deal with the global pandemic but to ensure that the other challenges we face—particularly on vaccine distribution, including against polio and cholera—are not forgotten. These remain live challenges in many parts of the world. That underlines our commitment to ensuring that such challenges remain very much on the priority radar. Covid-19 vaccines and their distribution are our primary focus. I agree that we should be looking at the experience of all our partners. There are NGOs working throughout Africa that have real experience of dealing with the Ebola outbreak. We should learn from that. I have spoken to leading scientists in Pakistan who are still dealing with polio, both there and in Afghanistan. They were able to deploy quickly certain measures to deal with Covid-19 when it happened. This is a learning curve, and we must work together to ensure optimum outcomes not just for one country, but for us all.

[Baroness Brinton (LD) [V]]

The UK is rightly proud of the leadership of many Governments over many years in Gavi. It was alarming to hear on the “Today” programme yesterday that only 25 vaccine injections had been delivered into arms so far in developing countries. Can the Minister reassure the House that the UK’s extra orders for the Pfizer and AZ vaccines have not caused any delays in the urgent rollout of the Gavi orders?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

I, too, heard that announcement. As Minister for South Asia, I know that there are large parts of India, for example, where the population is highly vulnerable and suffers extreme poverty. The Indian authorities are part of the rollout. I have also heard that the vaccine is now being delivered to Bangladesh. The Government are stressing to all our partners that support for the COVAX facility, particularly the AMC, is a key part of ensuring equitable distribution for all.

[Lord Bird (CB)]

My Lords, I congratulate the Government on their vaccination record. I am about to have mine, so I thank them. The Big Issue works with people on the streets all over the world—and here I declare an interest. Vaccinating street dwellers against Covid is very important, but they also need nutrition and support beyond that. Can the Minister’s department indicate whether anything might be added to the Covid vaccine that could keep these people healthy?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I pay tribute to the work of the noble Lord, helping people not just in the United Kingdom but across the world. I listened carefully to what the noble Lord said and look forward to practical suggestions from him for how we can further strengthen our work in this area. I can assure him that we are looking particularly at famine and nutrition in fragile states. This is very much part of the development elements with which the FCDO is engaged.

[Baroness Sugg (Con)]

My Lords, given the devastating impact of Covid-19 on low and middle-income countries, the need and the demand for overseas development assistance has never been greater. This is one of many reasons why the cut to the 0.7% is so regrettable. Can the Minister reassure me that spending on health infrastructure and on, for example, data systems, cold chain storage and the training of healthcare workers will be protected from the aid cuts? It is crucial in the fight against this and future pandemics around the world.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, answering my noble friend presents me with a bit of a challenge because, not so long ago, she was leading on this area, but I hope I can provide her with practical information in every sense. I look forward to working with her further on the prioritisations within ODA. My noble friend knows better than most the challenges that this has presented. I can assure her that global health remains a top priority for the United Kingdom. We are focused on overcoming Covid-19, as well as on supporting more resilient and healthier populations in developing countries. I currently have wider responsibilities within the FCDO. We are looking specifically at country plans to ensure that the most vulnerable are protected and that other issues such as those raised by the noble Lord, Lord Bird, on famine, do not present additional problems as we challenge the pandemic. We will ensure that the principles close to my noble friend’s heart continue to guide our work within the FCDO.

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Faulkner of Worcester) (Lab)]

My Lords, the time allowed for this Private Notice Question has elapsed. I apologise to noble Lords whom it has not been possible to call.

Xinjiang: Forced Labour

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Excerpts

Tuesday 19th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Northover (LD) [V]]

My Lords, I too thank the noble Lord for bringing us this Statement. The Foreign Secretary describes an appalling situation, with which we have become familiar. It is vital that our businesses do not benefit from slave labour in Xinjiang or anywhere else. The possibility of genocide must always be at the forefront of our minds, not least as we come up to Holocaust Memorial Day.

The Commons is indeed currently considering the amendments to the Trade Bill that we sent there. Ministers have been saying that Parliament, not the courts, should decide on genocide in relation to trade agreements. The noble Lord usually says international courts should decide on genocide, but he also admits that this is impossible when it comes to China. Yesterday, in relation to Nagorno-Karabakh, he said that

“it is a long-standing government policy that genocide is a matter for judicial decision rather than for Governments or non-judicial bodies.”—[Official Report, 18/1/21; col. 991.]

That seems in line with the amendment in the Commons. He said, “judicial decision”, not “international judicial decision” or “Parliament”: could he comment?

The Chinese Communist Party has described the forced sterilisation of Uighur women as “emancipation”. The UN convention on genocide clearly forbids this. The noble Lord will know that under the convention, when a state learns, or should have learned, of the serious risk of genocide, it must take action. Is his department making an assessment in relation to the Uighurs, and will he publish its conclusions? Given that China blocks routes to international courts, does he agree that the United Kingdom has a responsibility to find alternative routes to make the legal determination?

The second area I want to ask about, as the noble Lord, Lord Collins did, is the Magnitsky sanctions. The Government always say they keep these under review. The Minister will no doubt say that today, yet the US applies such sanctions in relation to China. Why do we not? The Foreign Secretary noted last week:

“Of course, many countries are nervous in their dealings with China because of its asymmetric economic clout.”—[Official Report, Commons, 12/1/21; col. 173.]


That is indeed so. The noble Lord rightly says that sanctions are most effective when undertaken jointly with others. There are three major economic blocs in the world: the United States, China and the EU. We now have to work that much harder to gain traction among European allies, not just France and Germany, so what progress are the Government making here?

The last area that I want to ask the noble Lord about is in relation to company law. I worked on the Companies Act 2006. We included supply chains. Can the noble Lord explain why neither the Companies Act nor the Modern Slavery Act have proved sufficient here? Clearly, reputation is vital. I noted how quickly companies acted after the Rana Plaza disaster when they realised that their reputations were at stake. What about public procurement? Can we be sure that the PPE that we so anxiously sought during the pandemic did not come from Xinjiang? There were reports of some of it originating in North Korea. Who will monitor and act on the proposed new measures? Which Minister in which department? Will legislation be brought forward as indicated—and, if so, when—to close the loopholes that the Government clearly identify exist in the Companies Act and the Modern Slavery Act?

The European Union, as the noble Lord, Lord Collins, noted, intends to introduce legislation on due diligence, which will be mandatory. Are we working with it so that our standards are at least equivalent? Will this issue be considered at the G7 or D10, or however it is defined, in June? I look forward to hearing the noble Lord’s response and also to the questions and answers from noble Lords who have so much experience in this area.

[The Minister of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Collins, and the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, for their welcome of the provisions that have been announced. I also reassure them that, as they will have seen, earlier today I was engaging with one of the key NGOs that I speak to on a regular basis on issues of human rights, with a specific focus on Xinjiang.

It is worth just taking a step back. I pay tribute to many in your Lordships’ House and in the other place, as well as other advocates around the world, in seeing where we have got to on this important issue, even over the last three years. There was a time where the issue of Xinjiang and the situation of the Uighurs was not often debated. However, because of the advocacy from across your Lordships’ House and in the other place, there is a real strength and a real momentum behind the actions we have seen in international action, with the United Kingdom working with key partners. We have also had rich debates on various Bills, as well as more generally as we are doing today on specific matters relating to the situation in Xinjiang. I pay tribute to all noble Lords and Members in the other place for their continued not just interest but strong advocacy, for that is what is required.

Picking up on some of the specific questions, first, on the issues raised by the noble Lord, Lord Collins, on guidance and working with businesses, from my own experience of the private sector over 20 years I think that the approach of successive Governments, because of the nature of the environment we work in, has always been to work with business and to offer guidance and structure so businesses can act. This new robust and detailed guidance to UK business sets out quite specific risks faced by companies with links to Xinjiang, underlining the challenges of effective due diligence—a point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, as well. There will be a Minister-led campaign of business engagement—which was a point the noble Lord, Lord Collins, again raised—led by my right honourable friend the Home Secretary with an organised forum called the Business Against Slavery Forum made up of businesses, which I understand my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary will also attend.

The noble Lord, Lord Collins, also raised sanctions and further designations, as did the noble Baroness, Lady Northover. I have to be consistent with what I said before: we keep the situation under review, across the world, because it is important in the new regime introduced by this Government that we continue to monitor abuses of human rights. I assure noble Lords that we will continue to act.

Answering a point that the noble Baroness raised about acting with key partners, we have carefully noted the action taken by the United States. We worked closely with the European Union during the transition period and, as we have come to the end of that, we will build a new engagement and relationship. As my right honourable friend the Prime Minister said, we want to be the closest ally and friend to the European Union, and we will work together on our shared values agenda.

As I have said—and I stand by this, as it is important for sanctions policy—there is sometimes no necessity for institutional frameworks, as we have seen and demonstrated in our relationships with Australia, Canada and the US. But it is important for relationships to be strengthened further. We will continue to work with all our allies, including the European Union, as we bring forward sanctions, across the world, to ensure that those who abuse human rights are held to account and suffer as a consequence.

The noble Lord, Lord Collins, talked of new legislation and confirmation through the affirmative procedure for some of the changes proposed to the Modern Slavery Act. My right honourable friend the Home Secretary will shortly bring forward details of those changes; these will be discussed through the usual channels. They will include further intent to impose financial penalties on businesses that do not comply with their transparency obligations in this respect.

The noble Baroness, Lady Northover, and the noble Lord, Lord Collins, both raised this issue. I go back to 2015, when my right honourable friend the Member for Maidenhead, Theresa May, was Home Secretary. I remember working directly with her on this ground- breaking Act, when we were spurred on by what was happening in the UK. This was well supported across all parts of your Lordships’ House. It set the premise and basis for actions that we can take today. Other countries, such as Australia, have followed the United Kingdom’s lead. Yes, more work needs to be done and more actions need to be brought, but the steps we are taking on Xinjiang underline our commitment to further strengthening the Modern Slavery Act. It was set up to ensure that we stop supply chains that abuse people’s human rights. We will make full use of and, where necessary, strengthen the provisions of that Act.

I also assure the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, that the Government will provide guidance and extend provisions to support all UK public bodies to use public procurement rules to exclude suppliers where there is sufficient evidence of human rights violations in supply chains. Compliance will be mandatory for central government, non-departmental bodies and executive agencies. We expect this to increase public sector bodies’ ability and willingness to exclude specific suppliers, and we expect increased scrutiny to drive up standards and due diligence. Again, the noble Baroness raised this point on companies supplying the Government.

Both the noble Lord and the noble Baroness raised international co-operation and continued advocacy. The noble Lord, Lord Collins, rightly raised action within the context of UN institutions, particularly the Human Rights Council. I look forward to engaging with him and the noble Baroness on this, as we look forward to the next Human Rights Council. The United Kingdom returns as a member, but it is also notable to see China returning. I assure your Lordships that we will focus on our agenda as we did at the previous Human Rights Council; our item 4 statement was specifically just on the issue in Xinjiang and Hong Kong. We will continue to retain focus and build momentum. We have seen success, as all noble Lords know, in the UN third committee, where 39 members, building on the 28 in June, supported our statement on the situation in both Xinjiang and Hong Kong.

On the G7 agenda, which was raised by both the noble Lord, Lord Collins, and the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, obviously we are working through the importance of the agenda. The Prime Minister recently announced that he himself will be hosting the G7 leaders in Cornwall, and of course the Foreign Secretary will be convening a meeting of G7 Foreign Ministers. As my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary has said, the importance of the values agenda and of defending human rights will very much be factored into our thinking. As we are able to share some of the specifics of that agenda, I will of course do so.

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Lexden) (Con)]

My Lords, we now come to the 20 minutes allocated to Back-Bench questions. Questions and answers should be brief so that the maximum number of speakers can be called.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con) [V]]

My Lords, my noble friend said a few moments ago that he had to be consistent with what he said before. I would like to raise with him the issue, which is being discussed now in the other place, of the determination of the crime of genocide. He has always said that that is a matter for the courts, yet Ministers and the Government are now arguing that it would be quite wrong for the High Court in this country, which the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, has made clear is perfectly competent, to do that. So how can it be right to say that it is a matter for a court, which my noble friend has already indicated would be subject to a veto, but not right for the High Court here to determine behaviour such as we are seeing in Xinjiang as being genocide?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, my noble friend is indeed correct. We have consistently talked about the importance of competent legal authorities—the courts—ruling on these issues. When it comes to international matters, the institutions that exist, as the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, said, have been frustrated because of the lack of co-operation. The challenge that we have with the amendment being discussed in the other place—that is a live debate so I am mindful of what I may be saying to ensure consistency not just across two Houses but across two departments with two different Ministers speaking at the same time—comes to the issue of the separation of powers. I think our concern comes from the High Court having the power to frustrate trade agreements and the operation of the Government’s foreign policy. I assure my noble friend that it is not about whether or not genocide has occurred in Xinjiang; it is about the crucial issue of the separation of powers, which is the key concern of the Government.

[Lord Field of Birkenhead (CB)]

I thank the Minister for presenting the Statement. Might he tell the House a little more about the instructions that the Government have given to those who purchase a considerable range of goods on their behalf, including goods made in China, including cotton goods made there under slave labour conditions? If he could give the House more details about how he thinks the Government’s Budget is going to be used in this respect, we would all be grateful to him.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Lord is right to raise this issue. One of the specific announcements that we made was that, while there were obligations on the private sector within the context of existing legislation, there was a notable omission in the guidance issued to UK public bodies. We have used the proposal to further detail what we expect. That guidance for all the agencies that I have already listed will be shared with all departmental bodies and executive agencies, and it will increase public bodies’ ability and willingness to exclude specific suppliers. I think the sharing of evidence of where those specific suppliers are will also be helpful, particularly when you are talking about various departmental bodies. We also believe it will increase scrutiny to drive up standards and the due diligence that public sector bodies themselves apply when supplying to the Government. When we have the full details of that, I will be happy to share them with the noble Lord and put a copy in the Library.

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Lexden) (Con)]

Unfortunately the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy, could not be reached. I call the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Newnham.

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD) [V]]

My Lords, in his previous response, the Minister pointed out that the advice given to the public sector was not the same as that given to the private sector. Can he reassure the House that public sector procurement has not included PPE or other imports from slave labour? The House and the rest of the United Kingdom really needs that reassurance.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I cannot—and I am sure the noble Baroness would not expect me to—give 100% affirmation that every single public sector body and contract has complied fully with the issues that she raised. I assure her and all noble Lords, as I have the noble Lord, Lord Field, just now, about the new government guidance. We will work with public bodies to ensure that the rules are fully understood and that there is a sufficient focus on, and sufficient evidence of, human rights violations that occur in supply chains. We will make public bodies fully cognisant of these so that they can act appropriately. With that reassurance, I hope and am certain that we will strengthen our work within the public procurement sector.

[Lord Garnier (Con) [V]]

My Lords, the Government’s Statement, for which I thank my noble friend the Minister, is clear and well motivated, but, if I may say so, it is only so far, so good. Does he agree that China will do absolutely nothing until we name the senior Chinese government officials responsible for this inhumane activity, ban them and their families from travelling abroad, freeze their bank accounts and impose the widest possible Magnitsky sanctions on them?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My noble and learned friend may know the answer I am about to give before I give it. He makes very powerful points about the importance of the end result of the human rights sanctions regime that we apply. It sends a very strong signal to those who abuse human rights that there will be consequences to their actions. I also assure him of what I alluded to earlier: there has been a real move in international action on this important issue. As we look forward to strengthening our work with partners, I note, on China not co-operating, that we are pressing for access to Xinjiang for the human rights commissioner, whose visit is the next key stage. We will continue to work with our partners to ensure greater transparency on the Chinese side. The Chinese take note not just of debates here and in the other place but of the action taken internationally. They are concerned about the situation currently being raised internationally in relation to their position on the global stage.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, in the House of Commons last week, the Foreign Secretary said that what is happening in Xinjiang is “on an industrial scale”. Perhaps the most shocking example of this has been the reported export of 81 tonnes of human hair, shaved off the heads of Uighur slave labourers. Dominic Raab’s predecessor, Jeremy Hunt, said that no responsible country would engage in free trade agreements with a state committing genocide. Can the Minister give a firm commitment now, on the Floor of the House, that the United Kingdom will not negotiate a free trade agreement with China until the United Nations is permitted to investigate Xinjiang and these violations on an industrial scale? Also, will he ask the Foreign Secretary to urgently respond to the request of the movers of Amendment 3 to the Trade Bill, both here and in the House of Commons, to meet Mr Raab to discuss the next steps in dealing specifically with the crime of genocide?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, on the noble Lord’s second point, I know that my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary and his team will look at all requests that we receive from colleagues across both Houses. I will certainly follow up what the noble Lord has raised. On his earlier point, the important thing is that, in any trade agreement that we look to negotiate and are involved with, human rights will be reflected in our discussions; I speak as a Human Rights Minister. As I have said before, China is an important strategic partner to the United Kingdom, and it has an important role to play in the world but, in doing so, it needs to recognise that the situation in Xinjiang is not going unnoticed. China is now being pressed and held to account for what is going on.

[Baroness Blackstone (Ind Lab)]

My Lords, I welcome the fact that the Statement recognises the appalling nature of the human rights abuses by Chinese authorities against the Uighur people, some of which have just been described by the noble Lord, Lord Alton. Given the denial of access to the region and refusal to admit that these abuses are taking place by the Chinese authorities, I wonder why we are being so slow in applying Magnitsky sanctions to the violators. I want to support what the noble and learned Lord, Lord Garnier, has already said. The Minister has said we are keeping this under review. I hope that he will not mind me saying that this seems rather feeble in the circumstances that we are now in. Surely, it is time for action and not just keeping something under review.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I hear what the noble Baroness says. The new sanctions regime was only launched last summer. I am sure she would agree with me that many, if not all, the designations that have been made have been valid and done because of the strength of the abuses that have occurred. I say this very clearly: the situation in Xinjiang and the action we have taken is demonstrable of not just our concern but, as the Foreign Secretary has said in the other place, the dire situation faced by the Uighur Muslims and, let us also not forget, other minorities within Xinjiang. We have acted. Of course, I take note of the issue around sanctions, but the actions we have taken—in Hong Kong, in engaging and showing international support, on the issues and limitations on extradition treaties with Hong Kong, arms exports and the recent provisions we have announced on forced labour—show that the Government are not sitting back. We are taking action, and there is a wide range of steps we can take. Of course, as ever, I note very carefully what the noble Baroness has put forward.

[Lord Campbell of Pittenweem (LD) [V]]

My Lords, I welcome and support these proposals but, bearing in mind the response of the Chinese government when the Australian government supported an independent inquiry into the outbreak of the virus in Wuhan, are the Government ready to hold the line and not back down if there is a similar response in this case?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I can assure the noble Lord that the government of China has not been, in any way, pleased with the leadership that the United Kingdom has shown on this important issue, both bilaterally in raising the issues directly with Chinese authorities, but also importantly in building international alliances—and we will continue to do so. We have an important relationship with China, but that does not hold us back from calling out challenges and abuses of human rights as we see them and when we see them.

[Lord Sheikh (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I feel that what is happening in China is reminiscent of the Holocaust, which has also been said by the Board of Deputies. The unfortunate victims this time are Muslims. We must now all decide to put a stop to what is going on. While I support the measures set out in the Statement, we need to take more robust actions and proceed to declare the persecution as genocide, invoke Magnitsky sanctions and consider legislation similar to the Uyghur Forced Labor Prevention Act in the United States. Furthermore, if the amendment on the Trade Bill is not accepted in the other place, we need to think about introducing similar measures in future. I would also like to add that if China does not allow outsiders, including a UN Commissioner, to have access to Xinjiang, we must stop Chinese officials from coming to the United Kingdom.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, there were a series of questions there. Some I believe have already answered, and I am sure my noble friend would acknowledge that. Of course, I share with him—as do the Government—the view that it is important to act and act now. As I have already illustrated, over the last few years we have seen real action being taken through multilateral fora, as well as directly, as the Statement from the Foreign Secretary has demonstrated. Of course, this does not stop here. If China fails to co-operate, we will continue to look to see what further provisions and actions can be taken. We take note of what our international partners are doing as well. As I have said consistently before, the application of sanctions works most effectively when we do so in partnership. On the point of stopping access to the UK for officials, one thing I will share with my noble friend, particularly through my engagement on multilateral fora, even with your worst foe you should never stop talking because by talking you are able to deliver your point of argument. China remains an important partner, so I do believe we will continue to work constructively where we agree with China and raise issues of human rights concerns where we do not.

[Baroness Falkner of Margravine (CB) [V]]

My Lords, I too welcome the Statement, but I am conscious that it talks about co-operation with international partners. The Minister will recognise that sanctions in whatever form work best when there is across the board co-operation among countries. I note that the EU has just completed an investment accord with China. What actions will the Government take if EU firms manage to export items made with forced labour to the UK, while UK firms are disadvantaged? What conversations are being had with France and Germany to ensure that this does not happen?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

I agree with the noble Baroness. I can assure her that we are working closely with our European allies and friends on the important issue of global human rights sanctions. Indeed, they followed our sanctions regime. The practical issue that she raises is a matter for the EU and I am sure it will act swiftly in this respect.

[Baroness Goudie (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, last week I asked the Minister for Trade to what extent human rights issues were part of our trade negotiations and the signing of contracts. He was not able to say whether this would be the first item when we discuss trade with China and other countries. Can the Minister undertake that we will not enter further negotiations with China or anyone else without having human rights as one of the first items on the agenda?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I can assure the noble Baroness that human rights are a key consideration in our discussions on bilateral trade agreements.

[Lord Balfe (Con)]

My Lords, as I have said in this Chamber before, we have to look at the broader picture when it comes to China. The Belt and Road initiative is about a very different China’s place in the world. We need to pull ourselves together with the United States and Europe and take a common position. How are we going to get people on the ground to see what is going on? The Chinese are not allowing anyone in. Unless they do, we will not find out. We could not even find out what was going on in Leicester, which is in our own country. We must find a way of putting people on the ground in the province.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I agree with my noble friend. China is part of the international community. We continue to state the point he has articulated so strongly through all our multilateral fora engagements.

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Lexden) (Con)]

Lord Singh of Wimbledon? There is no response from the noble Lord, so I call the noble Baroness, Lady Stuart of Edgbaston.

[Baroness Stuart of Edgbaston (Non-Afl) [V]]

My Lords, when it comes to Xinjiang, no one can say that we did not know. I welcome the Statement and, in particular, the transparency requirements for companies. In a liberal democracy, however, it is important to show that it is not just the Government who object to this but also the people of the British Isles. Will the Minister make it obvious when companies are not complying with the transparency requirements and encourage retailers, such as Marks & Spencer, which have made it clear that they will stop trading in cotton and garments that result from slave labour? We, as consumers, should be clear that we should not purchase any of these products.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

The noble Baroness makes a powerful point. We will look carefully at strengthening communications in this area.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I welcome the Statement. I have been particularly concerned about the horrific practice of enforced organ harvesting from prisoners of conscience in Xinjiang and other parts of China. The China Tribunal concluded that, with regard to the Uighurs, there was evidence of medical testing on a scale that could allow them to become an organ bank. Will the Government take action to hold British companies to account for their human rights obligations by preventing them exporting to China equipment that could be used for this horrific practice?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

I assure the noble Lord, with whom I have engaged previously on this issue, that we take this very seriously. He makes some very pertinent points that I shall reflect upon. Seeing how we can move to a practical application is very high up my agenda, and I am seeing Sir Geoffrey Nice later this week to discuss it further.

[Lord Austin of Dudley (Non-Afl) [V]]

My Lords, this is a brutal and corrupt dictatorship, and the idea advanced by some that the closer the relationship with the West the quicker it will move to freedom and democracy has been proved completely wrong. While trade has increased massively over the last 30 years, China today is more illiberal and guilty of worse atrocities: a million Muslims in concentration camps, slave labour, people being killed, forced sterilisations, children removed from their parents, and anyone who opposes the regime locked up. The Minister and the Government should listen to noble Lords who have spoken this afternoon and we should impose Magnitsky sanctions on the dictatorship’s leadership and those who use this regime’s brutality to enrich themselves.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

I assure the noble Lord, and indeed all within your Lordships’ House, that we are not just listening very carefully in a number of areas; we are acting quite decisively, and we will continue to do so. I have had this portfolio as Human Rights Minister for three years. About three years ago—the noble Lords, Lord Collins of Highbury and Lord Alton, among others, may have insights in this respect—the debates on this in your Lordships’ House were few and infrequent. Today, we may have different perspectives on the speed at which the Government are moving, but I listen very carefully to the wise counsel of your Lordships, as do my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary and other Ministers. I assure noble Lords that we will continue to engage both within and outside the Chamber on the important issue of human rights, not just in China but across the world.

House adjourned at 5.02 pm.

International Soft Power Strategy: Role of BBC

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Excerpts

Monday 18th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the role of the BBC in their international soft power strategy.

[The Minister of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)]

My Lords, the BBC plays an important role in promoting our values globally through its independent and impartial broadcasting. It is a central part of British soft power and influence. The role of soft power is being considered as part of the integrated review of security, defence, development and foreign policy. This will be informed by the conclusions of the cross-government work already undertaken on our strategic approach to this area.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD) [V]]

My Lords, what steps are the Government taking to co-ordinate their domestic approach to the BBC with their international soft power strategy? Does the Minister not consider that the repeated criticism of the BBC by Ministers, including the Prime Minister, and the right-wing press weakens the standing of the BBC and its reputation abroad?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, as I already said in my original Answer, we recognise as a Government the important role the BBC plays and continue to support its work around the world. Since 2016, the Government have invested heavily in the BBC, with over £370 million of funding. We continue to recognise the important role it plays on the world stage.

[Lord Austin of Dudley (Non-Afl) [V]]

My Lords, the BBC is the world’s most trusted broadcaster and its work in promoting values such as democracy, freedom and the rule of law is crucial when Chinese and Russian state-funded propaganda channels, with no commitment to accuracy or impartiality, are building large audiences in Europe, across Africa and Asia, and beyond. Will the Government commit to maintaining the funding they provided to introduce new and enhanced services—including the Russian service—after it runs out in September? Any cuts could put this work at risk, undermining the promotion of our values abroad.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord on the important role that the BBC plays. Funding is of course being considered alongside other FCDO spending priorities, as part of the 2020 spending review, but I would add that I also agree with him on the importance of new language services. During the previous period that I mentioned, between 2016 and 2020, the BBC has already launched 12 new language services supported by the Government.

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns (Con) [V]]

My Lords, our International Relations and Defence Committee report, published last week, welcomes BBC World Service provision of impartial information in three languages in Afghanistan. Does my noble friend agree that this work is important, because it contributes to fostering a more open society in which women can be empowered, and that the Government should maintain their financial support?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I agree with my noble friend and, through her role as chair, congratulate the committee on its important report. The FCDO is supportive of the BBC’s delivery of impartial and trusted news to Afghanistan. I spoke to the Foreign Minister of Afghanistan this morning on the importance of the role of women, in particular when it comes to peacebuilding. We believe that the BBC, particularly its BBC Pashto platform, is an important part of doing just that.

[Baroness D'Souza (CB) [V]]

My Lords, despite the proliferation of online news services, millions across the world turn towards the BBC World Service for accuracy and balance. Are Her Majesty’s Government planning to severely limit this most powerful of all soft power instruments, or will the current level of funding be guaranteed beyond September 2021?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I have already partially answered the question on funding. However, let me reassure the noble Baroness that we remain committed to the BBC, as has been demonstrated by our support for the 12 new language services over the period from 2016 to 2020.

[Lord Mendelsohn (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, the Government’s welcome and important funding of the World Service beyond the licence fee has more than achieved its objectives with a greater number of language services, double-digit audience growth and ever-higher trust ratings. Does the Minister accept that this unique world-leading asset for the UK is the right vehicle for further and larger support to achieve our vital national interest of combating disinformation and the use by hostile actors of dishonesty to undermine the stability of democracies?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I fully recognise what the noble Lord has said about the important role that the BBC World Service plays, for the very reasons that he says.

[Baroness Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury (LD) [V]]

My Lords, I welcome the words of Richard Sharp, the newly appointed chair of the BBC, that it is

“part of the fabric of all our national identities”.

Does the noble Lord the Minister agree? And does he agree that a globally strong and domestically supported BBC is massively in the national interest? I am afraid I have to press the Minister. Will the Government commit to sustaining their investment in the BBC World Service which has reaped such great rewards?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

I agree with the noble Baroness in her opening remarks. On the issue of finance, we are currently reviewing FCDO priorities. She may press me, and she is entitled to, but I cannot give a specific answer at this time.

[Baroness Fall (Con) [V]]

Now that we have cut our ties with the EU, we need to be more, not less, focused on how we maximise our influence around the world. We have many assets at our disposal: a strong economy, our aid budget, our military, our membership of many influential bodies and we are chairing the G7 and COP 26 this year. However, our language and how we deploy it through the likes of the BBC World Service and BBC World News remains one of our greatest assets, as others have already iterated in this debate. I ask the Minister to reassure us that, as we look to review the licence fee, we do not cut funds to these most valuable assets—especially as we are competing with state media outlets from the likes of China and Russia.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

I have listened very carefully to my noble friend and I agree with her. Like many noble Lords, indeed all noble Lords, I welcome the role the BBC continues to play, and the Government are very supportive. I take specific note of the concerns raised on the issue of funding. I am sure the input from today’s questions will feature in our thinking as we move forward on the future funding of the BBC World Service.

[Baroness Bakewell (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, we live in times of fake news. “Fake news” is an allegation made by the President of the United States against the media in America. Will this Government pledge and make public their support of the BBC as a trustworthy news source?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I believe I have already done that several times today, and I will continue to do so.

[Baroness Coussins (CB)]

My Lords, can the Minister update the House on action taken by the Government to protest about and bring an end to the systematic persecution by Iranian authorities of the BBC’s Persian service journalists and their families, both in the UK and in Iran?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

The noble Baroness raises a very important point. I reassure her that we consistently raise the important role of journalists within Iran with the Iranian authorities. Let me also reassure her that, as she will know, media freedom and protecting journalists around the world is a key Government priority.

[Baroness Hooper (Con) [V]]

My Lords, in underlining everything that has been said about the importance and value of the BBC’s foreign language services, may I turn to the need to increase trade with Latin American countries? Are there any plans to build on the success of the BBC World Service’s Spanish-language Latin American service BBC Mundo? For our home consumption, will the Minister press the BBC to increase positive coverage of events in the region? I must confess that I often have to switch to Al Jazeera to get the wider picture.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

I take note of what my noble friend has said. In looking towards what is now global Britain and our support, I am sure that the BBC and its valuable service will be part of our thinking as we strengthen our approach to trade and other areas around the world.

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD) [V]]

My Lords, does the Minister envisage that the soft power strategy that was anticipated will ever be produced, or has it been subsumed into the integrated security and defence review? Where will the BBC World Service fit into that?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

As I have already said, the integrated review is a vital part of that, and all these component elements will be in the announcement of the findings of the integrated review. The BBC World Service provides an important source of communication and information, as we have heard from noble Lords, and it will continue to be part of our thinking. The issue of soft power around the world is a key part of what we do. Whether we look at the BBC, some of our scholarships or global Britain’s place in the world through the Commonwealth, all of these are part and parcel of our soft power strategy and part of what will feature in the announcement of the integrated review.

[The Lord Speaker (Lord Fowler)]

My Lords, all supplementary questions have been asked. We now move to the second Oral Question.