Oral Answers to Questions
Lord Maude of Horsham Excerpts(12 years, 5 months ago)
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Mr Mark Spencer (Sherwood) (Con)
7. What assessment he has made of the potential effects of planned changes to Government procurement on UK businesses bidding for contracts.
The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General (Mr Francis Maude)
On 21 November, I announced a package of measures to transform how the Government buy. We want to save money for the taxpayer and for suppliers and to make it easier for small and medium-sized enterprises and voluntary organisations to bid successfully. That is why we have announced a pipeline of £50 billion-worth of future business opportunities. We will make it 40% quicker to do business with Government and we will, in future, engage proactively with current and future suppliers to discuss upcoming procurement opportunities.
Alec Shelbrooke
Will my right hon. Friend describe to the SMEs in my constituency of Elmet and Rothwell where they should go if they have any problems or issues with Government procurement?
Mr Maude
If there are problems not only in how central Government procure but across the wider public sector, I hope that my hon. Friend’s constituents will make contact with my Department through the helpline that we have set up specifically for the purpose. If they highlight how procurements are being done that entrench the old, inefficient and anti-enterprise way of doing things, we can then intervene proactively, as we have done on a number of occasions, to make improvements.
Mark Pawsey
It is the small businesses that often have the greatest difficulty in accessing Government contracts, and that is because of a regulation from the European Union. Will the Minister tell us what steps he is taking to reform EU regulations to make it easier to secure contracts with Government both at a national and local level?
Mr Maude
The first thing that we are doing is trying to ensure that the way in which we implement the European directives is sensible and not overly bureaucratic and legalistic, which it usually is at the moment. The European Commission is introducing proposals to streamline and simplify the procurement directives, which we welcome. I was talking to Commissioner Barnier in Brussels two or three weeks ago, and he was very open to that happening.
Mr Spencer
Fresh Opportunities is a company in my constituency that supplies water drinkers to jobcentres. Sadly, though, it lost the contract. That was not because it was inefficient or too expensive but because it could not deliver a service on a large enough scale. What can the Minister do to enable SMEs, which cannot operate on a national scale, to be able to deal with Government bodies?
Mr Maude
We have two objectives here. We want to buy as efficiently as we can, which, in many cases, means using the scale of Government to aggregate volume and drive down prices. In many areas of procurement of commodities, goods and services, we are able to get the price advantages of aggregation but, none the less, involve SMEs much more in the process. We have a commitment and an aspiration to increase the value of SME business to 25% of the total.
Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP)
The Minister will be aware that public procurement guidelines in Northern Ireland are set by EU directives and UK regulations. Will the Minister, therefore, give a commitment to work alongside the Northern Ireland Executive and not to turn his back on Europe in negotiations to tackle the issues of over-complexity, cost and red tape, as those are issues that are affecting local business?
Mr Maude
As I said, we are actively engaged with the European Commission in supporting the good work that it is undertaking to streamline procurement processes, but we need to ensure—and I hope that the hon. Lady will do this—that the Administration in Northern Ireland do not overimplement the directives because we are finding that central Government and the wider public sector in Great Britain tend to do that.
Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD)
Notwithstanding what the Minister said about the economies of scale, the Federation of Small Businesses has reported an increased tendency for public sector contracts to be aggregated into much larger ones, thereby penalising smaller businesses. What has the Minister got to say to those small businesses?
Mr Maude
There is a whole range of procurement opportunities that are particularly suitable for smaller businesses. Even when we aggregate, that does not exclude small businesses. For example, we have just let the contracts for travel for the whole of Government and one of the successful two bidders is a very small business, which, as a result of winning that contract, will become a much bigger one.
Mr Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con)
Can my right hon. Friend include in that assessment the ability of charities and small organisations, mutuals and so on to bid for public sector contracts as providers of public services? May I commend the report that the Select Committee on Public Administration has published today on the big society, which recommends that the Government extend the eligibility for the VAT refund scheme, which currently applies to public sector bodies, to charities that deliver public services under contract with a public sector organisation?
Mr Maude
I shall ensure that my right hon. Friend the Chancellor takes note of my hon. Friend’s suggestion. We want to make it easier for small voluntary organisations and mutuals to bid successfully. One thing that we aim to do is to get contracts chunked up into smaller lots. We have much bigger contracts, generally, than France or Germany would have in equivalent circumstances, which tends to militate and be biased against the interests of smaller businesses and voluntary and charitable organisations.
Jonathan Ashworth (Leicester South) (Lab)
3. What assessment his Department has made of the role of the big society initiative in tackling social exclusion.
Jim McGovern (Dundee West) (Lab)
4. Whether his Department has considered altering its guidance on the disposal of official Government documents.
Jim McGovern
According to Cabinet Office guidance, what would be the recourse if a civil servant in the Minister’s Department breached the Data Protection Act?
Mr Maude
I can provide a detailed answer to the hon. Gentleman if he requires. If he is concerned about classified Government documents going amiss, I suggest he raises the matter with his right hon. Friend the shadow Health Secretary, who in 2009 had to apologise for leaving a briefcase full of classified Government documents on a train.
Richard Fuller (Bedford) (Con)
5. What recent progress he has made in establishing Big Society Capital.
Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
8. What steps he is taking to encourage employee mutuals to develop and run central Government services.
The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General (Mr Francis Maude)
As we set out in the “Open Public Services” White Paper, we are committed to an ambitious programme of mutualisation, allowing staff to break free of bureaucracy and to spin out from the public sector. To support that, we have put in place the mutuals support programme, the mentoring of mutuals by groups such as John Lewis, the mutuals task force chaired by Professor Le Grand and the mutuals information service, and we are increasing the “right to provide” scheme.
Ian Murray
The Minister for the Cabinet Office expects there to be an extra 1 million workers in organisations taking over the running of public services by 2015. Will he update the House on how many he expects to be doing so by the end of this financial year?
Mr Maude
I have certainly not set a target of 1 million, but it is perfectly feasible that 1 million public sector workers will choose to take themselves out of the public sector in order to deliver in employee-led organisations the services that they currently provide. The number is growing, and, although we cannot make it happen, we are going to make it a great deal easier and to support all those groups. The benefits are huge in terms of productivity. Staff absence falls, staff turnover falls and customer satisfaction rises very dramatically, so I hope that we have the hon. Gentleman’s enthusiastic support for this programme of mutualisation.
Craig Whittaker (Calder Valley) (Con)
9. How small and medium-sized enterprises in Calder Valley constituency can bid for central Government information and communications technology and facilities management contracts.
Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)
10. What progress he has made in reaching agreement with trade unions on the Government’s proposed reforms to public sector pensions.
The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General (Mr Francis Maude)
We have engaged in intensive and frequent discussions with the trade unions. At their request, talks are continuing at scheme level in the four public sector pension schemes that are currently being discussed, and we continue to make progress, I believe, in all four. We are determined that public sector pensions will remain among the very best available, but in order to make them sustainable and affordable for the long term, reform is urgently needed.
Mr Hollobone
Under the Government’s offer, a teacher earning £32,000 a year could anticipate a pension of £20,000 a year, whereas a private sector worker earning the same salary would have to devote some 38% of his or her wages in order to get a pension of the same size. Given the terms of the Government’s offer, should the trade unions not now call off any threat of further industrial action?
Mr Maude
I simply pray in aid what Lord Hutton, the former Labour Pensions Secretary, said yesterday, when he referred to public sector trade unions “holding a gun” to the taxpayer’s head. He said that the offer was generous and that it was hard
“to envisage a better offer being made.”
I hope that we can now move quickly to resolve the final, outstanding issues, so that we can move on without further disruption to people’s lives.
Mr Ben Bradshaw (Exeter) (Lab)
Given that the Minister’s Department is currently the worst in Whitehall for meeting the Government’s business plan targets—targets for which he is responsible—having missed 38 at the last count, would his time not be better spent sorting out his own Department, rather than picking fights with public sector unions?
Mr Maude
The short answer is that we want to get these public sector pension issues resolved quickly. I would be quite interested to know whether the right hon. Gentleman shares our belief—and that of Lord Hutton, his former colleague—that we are talking about a generous offer that the trade unions should accept, and that they should stop “holding a gun” to the taxpayer’s head. Does he agree with that?
John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab)
The Minister earlier announced that if he had not secured agreement by Christmas, he would impose a pensions settlement or scheme on the unions. Is that still his intention, and if it is, will he make a statement to the House next week?
Mr Maude
We very much hope that it will not be necessary for the Government to move to the stage of imposition. Our intention is that we should reach agreement. It is necessary that we reach agreement by the end of the year, because there is a lot of work to do to put the new schemes in place as early as possible, so that people know what their future holds and we can implement the new schemes; so yes, we will be making further announcements to the House before it rises.
Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab)
11. What steps he is taking to support the voluntary sector.
Tom Blenkinsop (Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland) (Lab)
T1. If he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities.
The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General (Mr Francis Maude)
My responsibilities are for the public sector Efficiency and Reform Group, civil service issues, industrial relations strategy across the public sector, Government transparency, civil contingencies, civil society and cyber-security.
Tom Blenkinsop
Lists for 2010 failed to mention that the Prime Minister met Rupert Murdoch in June 2010. This was amended to ensure transparency only recently. Why?
Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)
T2. Mindful of the fact that we have not had flooding for a number of months and mindful of the forecasted storm weather, can the Minister for the Cabinet Office assure us that flood rehearsals are taking place between all the relevant emergency services on a regular basis?
Mr Maude
I can certainly confirm that. Meetings are taking place between the relevant Departments—one took place earlier this morning—to ensure that capabilities are in place in advance of any possible flooding, with urgent consideration given to ensuring that the public receive the right advice. I am glad to say that the forecast is looking a little better than it was.
Simon Hart (Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire) (Con)
T5. Can the Minister confirm how many civil servants went on strike in the recent action?
Mr Speaker
Order. I know that the House wants to hear the right hon. Gentleman’s answer.
Mr Maude
I sense that the House is waiting on the edge of its seat for my answer. On 30 November, 146,256 civil servants went on strike, which represents about 30% of the civil service work force. I would like to express my appreciation to the 70% of civil servants who came to work that day as normal.
Karl Turner (Kingston upon Hull East) (Lab)
T4. The Minister is refusing to negotiate with the unions over pension contribution increases, the retirement age, cost ceiling, indexation and other issues. Is that not typical of this Government, proving that they enter into negotiations with no intention whatever of coming to an amicable agreement? Are not the Government spoiling for a scrap with the trade unions?
Mr Maude
Far from spoiling for a scrap with the trade unions, we are engaged in very intensive discussions with them. Even in the week during which the strike took place—a completely unnecessary strike, which the Labour party refused to condemn, massively inconveniencing many people and damaging the economy—a number of meetings took place with the trade unions to try to secure agreement on the much needed reforms. Let me remind the hon. Gentleman that Lord Hutton, the former Labour Pensions Secretary, has said that this is a generous offer and that the unions should stop “holding a gun” to the taxpayer’s head.
Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con)
T6. Malvern has a cluster of firms—small, medium and large—with expertise in cyber-security. I invite the Minister down to Malvern to meet them.
Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)
T8. Does the Minister have any regrets about the way in which he has conducted negotiations with the public sector trade unions by using megaphone diplomacy through the media and not providing information in a timely way?
Mr Maude
No, I have no regrets at all. We have engaged in very intensive discussions over a long period with the unions and the leadership of the TUC over the individual schemes. If the hon. Lady thinks we are not negotiating, she should talk to the TUC about the intensiveness of the negotiations. Perhaps she would like to remind her friends in the unions of what Lord Hutton, the former Labour Pensions Secretary, said only yesterday about the Government’s offer. [Interruption.]
Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) (LD)
T7. What contribution are Departments making to greater energy efficiency and reducing carbon emissions following the successful Durban summit?
Mr Maude
In the first year following the forming of the coalition Government, we cut carbon emissions by more than the 10% target that we had set ourselves. We have also committed ourselves to ensuring that carbon emissions from Government buildings—Government property—fall by no less than 25% during the current Parliament, and I am confident that we will fulfil that commitment.
Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab)
The Electoral Commission announced today that there are not 3 million but 6 million missing, unregistered voters. Does the Minister agree that the equalisation of seats should be postponed, or suspended, until a full investigation has been conducted to establish where those 6 million people are?
Graham Evans (Weaver Vale) (Con)
T9. The national citizens service is an excellent initiative to help young people to develop the skills and attitudes that they need in order to become responsible citizens. Can the Minister tell me what local branches of the service will be available to them in my constituency?
Cabinet Committees List
Lord Maude of Horsham Excerpts(12 years, 5 months ago)
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The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General (Mr Francis Maude)
Today I am publishing an updated Cabinet Committee list. I have placed a copy of the new list in the Libraries of both Houses.
Central Office of Information
Lord Maude of Horsham Excerpts(12 years, 5 months ago)
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The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General (Mr Francis Maude)
I announced on 23 June 2011 that the Government’s changes to improve the effectiveness and efficiency of Government communication would include the closure of the Central Office of Information (COI). The Central Office of Information Trading Fund (Revocation) Order 2011, laid before the House of Commons today, provides for the COI trading fund to cease to exist on 30 December 2011. On the same day as the COI trading fund ceases to exist, the Prime Minister has agreed that the existing functions of COI should be transferred to the Cabinet Office and therefore that COI will cease to exist as a separate non-ministerial Department.
Industrial Action
Lord Maude of Horsham Excerpts(12 years, 5 months ago)
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The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General (Mr Francis Maude)
With permission, I would like to update the House on today's public sector strike action, which is about long overdue reforms to public sector pensions.
I start by thanking the large majority of public servants who have turned up for work today as normal. The low response to the call for strike action reflects their dedication to their public service calling. It also reflects the recognition that taking strike action while negotiations continue on an almost daily basis is nothing short of irresponsible, inappropriate and untimely. It is plain wrong.
This strike is about long-overdue reforms to public sector pensions. I repeat that we want public sector workers to continue to have access to pension schemes that are among the very best available. They will continue to be defined benefit schemes, delivering a guaranteed pension, index-linked and inflation-proofed. Such schemes have all but disappeared from the rest of the work force.
Reform, however, is urgently needed. The cost of public service pensions has increased by a third in the past 10 years to £32 billion a year, and the Office for Budget Responsibility forecasts that, without reform, spending on public sector pensions will rise by nearly £7 billion over the next five years. Life expectancy is rising, and people are living longer, so in future people will work longer, for a better balance between life spent in work and life in retirement. Most public sector staff, except the lowest-paid, will pay more for a fairer balance between what they pay towards their pensions and what other taxpayers pay.
During the discussions, we have been willing to listen to the concerns of staff, and we have responded. On 2 November, after months of negotiations, my right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary set out in Parliament a revised offer that was more generous by 8%. In addition, we have made sure that any public sector workers within 10 years of retirement will be able to retire on their current terms. We are also protecting the lower paid. Public sector staff earning less than a full-time equivalent of £15,000 will not have to pay anything extra at all, and there will be limited increases and contributions for those earning, on a full-time basis, between £15,000 and £21,000. We think that that is fair.
The offer on the table is, by any standards, a generous one. It is a deal that most people in the private sector could only dream of being offered. Most staff on low and middle incomes will retire on a pension as good as what they expect today, and for many it will be even better.
The changes to the pension schemes will particularly protect women, who form the majority of the public sector work force, many of whom are on lower pay. A move from final salary schemes to career average will secure fairer outcomes for lower-paid workers, most of whom are women. The new schemes will also protect future generations from an unsustainable burden placed on them by unaffordable public sector pensions.
It is simply not true that the Government are not negotiating. I was surprised to hear the Leader of the Opposition repeating that claim today. Only yesterday there were discussions with the civil service unions on the civil service pension scheme; tomorrow there will be discussions with the teaching unions, and on Friday with the health unions. After the new offer was made on 2 November, it was agreed, at the request of the TUC, that discussions would continue on the schemes—so it is within the sectoral schemes that the discussions are taking place, at the specific request of the TUC. In addition, there are frequent—[Interruption.] The shadow Chancellor asks from a sedentary position whether we have met the TUC. The answer is yes. [Hon. Members: “You!”] So, contrary to—[Hon. Members: “You! You!”] I will say to—
Mr Speaker
Order. The right hon. Gentleman will resume his seat. The Minister has, perhaps understandably, been provoked into a response, but questions, of whatever kind, relating to his statement must follow the statement. We cannot have constant sedentary interjections. I appeal to Members to stop doing that, and if it happens, I suggest that the Minister blithely ignore it.
Mr Maude
As always, Mr Speaker, I will do as you encourage me to.
Contrary to claims being made this morning by trade union leaders—and by the Leader of the Opposition and the shadow Chancellor—talks are very much alive. They are intensive and they are making good progress. I deeply regret the misleading claims to the contrary.
All this underlines how indefensible today’s strike is while talks at scheme level are moving forward. It is inappropriate, untimely and irresponsible. The ballots for strike action, particularly in the bigger unions, had a turnout of between a quarter and a third—a very low turnout indeed. Our latest data suggest that, as of 11 am today, 135,000 civil servants—well below a third, indeed not much more than a quarter, of civil servants—were on strike. Most civil servants are going to work today as normal.
We have put in place rigorous contingency plans to ensure that, as far as possible, essential public services are maintained during such periods of industrial action. I have an update on what my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said a few minutes ago: only 16 of the 930 jobcentres are now closed to the public, and UK borders are open and operating with only very minor delays in some seaports. In the airports services are being maintained. I pay tribute to all the dedicated people who are keeping those borders both secure and open.
Across the other sectors the impact has been varied. According to estimates early this morning, across all state-funded schools in England, some 60% are closed but a great many are open or partially open. I am very grateful to those who have worked hard to keep their schools open across the country—head teachers, governors, support staff and teachers, all of whom may have concerns about their own pensions but have chosen to put the needs of pupils and parents above their own to minimise the impact of this strike. I deeply regret the fact that there will have been disruption to the lives of so many hard-working parents across the country, and to hard-working pupils, many of whom are facing mock exams in the near future; they need a closed school like they need a hole in the head.
Overall, the national health service is coping well with industrial action. Early indications are that the strike is having only a minor impact on patient services, and that has largely been mitigated by robust contingency planning. Several trusts have been forced to make cancellations of elective surgery, which is deeply unfortunate and I deeply regret it, but many organisations in the health service are reporting that they are operating at near normal levels. There is some disruption taking place in the local government sector, but councils have worked hard to secure essential services in areas such as dementia care and homelessness, to protect some of the most vulnerable members of the public from the most serious potential impacts of strikes.
Let me finish by saying this: I have huge respect for the dedicated women and men who keep our public services running. Their work is demanding, essential and highly valued. They deserve to be able to retire on decent pensions. Our reforms will ensure that their pension schemes will be decent, and that they can be sustained for the future. They deserve no less.
Jon Trickett (Hemsworth) (Lab)
I thank the Minister for his courtesy in letting me have advance sight of the statement, which I received 20 minutes ago.
Clearly, the whole House regrets that industrial action is taking place today and that millions of families now face disruption to the services on which they rely and depend. Strikes are always a sign that negotiations have broken down, and if a deal is to be reached it is essential that both sides—let us be clear that that includes the unions, but the bulk of the responsibility lies with the Government—get around the negotiating table and show willingness to give ground.
Is it not true that the Government bear the greatest burden of responsibility for what is happening today? We accept that there is a need to continue the reform of public service pensions, which we in fact began when we were in office. We found the unions to be tough but ultimately reasonable negotiators. and we achieved a settlement without any industrial action.
The Government refer to Lord Hutton. He provided rigorous analysis of the current situation, laid out the ground rules for the negotiations, and persuasively argued that there was a need for further change. For example, he was right when he suggested we should look again at career average schemes, which might be fairer in many cases.
The unions need to show they accept the need for change, and indeed they have said they accept the continued need for negotiation and further change. The Government arbitrarily announced a 3p in the pound levy on the incomes of public sector workers, but this imposition has nothing whatever to do with Hutton. Is it not the case that the money that will be garnered from that 3p is not going to the pension schemes but is instead going into the pockets of the Chancellor of the Exchequer? The Minister says negotiations are ongoing, but will he tell us whether or not the 3p imposition, which is a form of tax on public sector workers, is negotiable? It clearly is not in the Government’s mind. Will he also respond to the question about when he last met the unions as part of the negotiation, and when Treasury Ministers last met them, as the leader of Unison said today he had not met them at all since 2 November? It is remarkable that the Government can say negotiations are ongoing when the key Departments have never met the trade unions.
At the core of today’s industrial action are 750,000 low-paid workers. These people provide daily services to all of us and to all the people we serve in our constituencies. They are mainly women, they are almost exclusively low paid, and they provide the essential services on which our whole country depends: they are school dinner ladies, teachers, nurses and others. The House must not underestimate the difficult decisions each of those people must make in deciding whether to take action. Many of them never thought, when they entered the service of the public, that they would have to go on strike. It is a difficult personal decision for each of them, and I assure the House that they take it only with the greatest reluctance. They feel a burning sense of injustice that, low paid though they are, an additional burden is now being imposed on them. Equally, they face a significant deterioration in their pensions, which is why 750,000 low-paid workers—mainly women—have taken that difficult personal decision.
There is a risk that many of those people will opt out of their pensions.
Jon Trickett
I thought I was asking questions as I was going along.
What estimate have the Government made of the number of people who might opt out of their pension schemes, and what damage might the schemes incur?
It has been suggested that the Prime Minister thinks he can gain political advantage from the strike. He told The Daily Telegraph that he was delighted that a strike would take place. What is the Minister’s strategy? Will he and the Treasury again meet the trade unions to begin negotiations? We have consistently argued that negotiations should be ongoing. Will he call the unions today to ask for meetings tomorrow?
Let me turn to the disruption that has been caused today. How many people are staffing the borders? Will the Minister confirm that there has been no relaxation of border checks?
This is a strike that did not need to happen—nobody wants strikes. The Government must show that they are willing to negotiate sensibly.
Mr Speaker
Order. I gently say to Whips, wherever they are in the House, that the House is best served when they go about their Protean tasks quietly. On the whole, the House is greatly nourished if they are seen and not heard.
Mr Maude
May I deal with the point about the negotiations? I thought I had made it as clear as possible that, at the TUC’s request, the negotiations are continuing in the scheme sector talks. [Hon. Members: “Are you going to meet them?] I have met them—[Hon. Members: “When?] Since 2 November. We conduct many of the negotiations in private—at the request of the TUC. [Interruption.] If Labour Members want to know when the meetings took place, I shall give them the TUC’s telephone number. Let me be absolutely clear: I shall not disclose what the contacts are—at the express request of the TUC. Okay? If they want me to be explicit about the contacts, rather than attacking me they should talk to the TUC. I think they probably know the number.
The shadow Minister asked whether I would call the unions today to suggest a meeting. He is a bit slow on the uptake: I called them yesterday to make that suggestion. I make it absolutely clear that my right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary and I are ready at any stage to meet the TUC. We have done so consistently over the whole period, but at the request of the TUC the discussions are continuing in the four sector schemes and are making good progress. That is why this strike is so indefensible, so unjustifiable, so irresponsible. Luckily, not that much damage will have been inflicted on the economy, because most public servants have chosen to work today as normal. But that has nothing to do with the attitude of the Labour party or of some trade union leaders.
I was asked about the Labour Government’s public sector pension reforms. The shadow Minister made a point about full-time equivalence—the basis on which the previous Government put in place their public sector pension reforms. We have simply followed what they did. I can tell the House that 750,00 low-paid workers will not lose at all—they will not pay a penny more in contributions, because they are below the threshold we have set—and 85% of them are women. It would be useful if the hon. Gentleman confirmed those figures.
The other thing to say about the Labour Government’s pension reforms is that, at the behest of their paymasters in the trade unions, they bottled out of putting in place the long-term reform that makes these changes sustainable. That is why Lord Hutton, Labour’s former Work and Pensions Secretary, recommends all these proposals and reforms, which will make the arrangements we arrive at in the discussions sustainable for a generation. No Government over the next 25 years should have to revisit pension schemes, which we have had to do because the previous Government bottled it.
Mr David Ruffley (Bury St Edmunds) (Con)
Three out of four of my constituents work in the private sector for middling incomes, and they tell me that they would have to put one third of their earnings into their pension to get the benefits that people on strike today enjoy on retirement. Does the Minister agree that the public sector pensions settlement is not only incredibly affordable but incredibly fair?
Mr Maude
I think it is fair to the general taxpayer, who has carried all the additional cost of public sector pensions over the past 10 years, and to public sector workers and staff, who are dedicated, hard working and perform essential work. We want pension schemes to be available, without their having to be revisited every few years, because this Government are determined to get this right for the long term.
Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)
Despite the sickening trade union bashing of Tory MPs, a number of whose campaigns were financed by Lord Ashcroft, so we do not need any lectures from them, is the Minister aware that many decent, dedicated, law-abiding public servants have gone on strike—in many instances for the first time in their life—because they feel cheated and insecure about their pensions and do not accept what the Minister and other Ministers have said? Is there not at least an opportunity to try to understand the deep, strong feelings of people, many of whom will retire with pensions worth a tiny fraction of those that most Tory MPs will receive?
Mr Maude
I do understand the concerns of public sector staff and I want to commend the 75% to 80% of public sector workers who have gone to work today as normal. No one had to go on strike. Discussions are continuing and, as I said, making progress on a daily basis. The hon. Gentleman mentions pensions for Members of Parliament. We are public sector workers. We have a very generous pension scheme. It needs to be reformed and I hope it will be.
Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD)
I declare an interest as a paid-up member of the NASUWT who is not supportive of the action taken today. The critical thing is the timing. Can the Minister reiterate and continue to reiterate the fact that negotiations went on yesterday, will go on tomorrow and, tragically, would have happened today had it not been for the action that has been taken?
Mr Maude
My hon. Friend is completely right on that. His own union will be in discussions with the education employers tomorrow. There is disruption caused by today’s action, but despite that there were discussions yesterday with civil service unions and there will be discussions tomorrow and on Friday with health unions. This process is still going ahead, which is why it is so hard to defend the action being taken today. I am just sorry that the Labour party cannot bring itself—does not have the guts—to say it is wrong.
Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab)
Does not the Minister understand that there are thousands of part-time workers, the vast majority of whom are women, who are being asked to pay an extra 3%? I would not call it pension contribution, because it is not even going to boost their pension fund. How many of them will opt out as a result of the Government’s changes?
Mr Maude
For most public sector workers there is no fund. Contributions made today go to pay pensions today. The local government scheme is funded. Most of them are not funded. They are pay-as-you-go schemes. Lower paid people will not be asked to pay more. As I say, 750,000 low paid public sector workers will have to pay nothing extra at all as a result of these changes.
Mr Rob Wilson (Reading East) (Con)
Is my right hon. Friend aware that in a substantial number of local authorities, local government pensions are paid for by the equivalent of 25% of council tax? Is it fair to those council tax payers who are paying such a large sum of their hard-earned cash?
Mr Maude
Over recent years the balance between what is paid by public sector staff towards their pensions and what is paid by the general taxpayer and, in the case that my hon. Friend refers to, the council tax payer, has got out of balance. What we are doing is putting it into a fairer balance. In every case the employer, which is the taxpayer, will be paying more towards the cost of those pensions than staff. I think that is fair, as well. But there will be a fairer balance, and so there should be.
Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP)
A good St Andrew’s day to you, Mr Speaker. The Scottish National party fully supports the public sector unions and we deplore this Government’s pension fund raid. The Scottish Government tried to protect public sector workers in Scotland by not imposing the pension levy, but the Chief Secretary promised to deprive us of £100 million if we did that. Why did he do that? Surely that is a great example of why pension policy should be under the democratic control of the Scottish people in the Scottish Parliament.
Nigel Mills (Amber Valley) (Con)
Can the Minister tell my constituents who work hard and have no chance of achieving a £20,000 index-linked guaranteed pension what level of contributions they would have to pay to their own scheme to get that level of pension?
Mr Maude
As has been said, to achieve the same pension as many public sector workers will continue to enjoy after these reforms are put in place, many people working in the private sector would end up having to pay no less than a third of their salary in pension contributions. These are good pension schemes. They will continue to be good pension schemes. We want them to be so.
Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)
I know that those on the Government Benches want to denigrate trade unions, but I am proud of being a trade unionist. I first joined a trade union when I was a vicar, though it was always a bit difficult to strike, because nobody noticed and it was difficult to identify who one’s employer was. What angers many public sector workers is that, even where there are pension funds, as the Minister admitted today, the extra 3% that is being asked for is not going into those funds. It is going straight to the Government. That is what makes it feel like a raid on public sector workers.
Mr Maude
I feel confident that if the hon. Gentleman was on strike today, we would definitely miss him. I commend him, as a member of a trade union, for having crossed the picket line today to come to work. The issue he raises is where the extra contribution is going. He fails to understand that these schemes, for the most part, are not funded schemes. What is not paid by staff towards the cost of their pensions is picked up by the general taxpayer. And I say again—I assume this is the basis on which the shadow Chancellor said this morning that further reform of public sector pensions is needed—that whatever is not paid by staff is picked up the taxpayer, and that all the extra cost in the past 10 years, which has risen by a third—an extra £10 billion a year—has fallen on the general taxpayer. That is why we need a fairer balance.
Priti Patel (Witham) (Con)
With only a third of union members voting for today’s strike action, does my right hon. Friend believe that today’s action is justified?
Mr Maude
I do not think that on any basis today’s action is justified. First of all, there are negotiations going on almost on a daily basis, as I said. Secondly, certainly in the biggest trade unions, a very low proportion of the members who were balloted voted. In Unison, for example, only a little over a quarter of the members balloted voted. In all the large unions, it was somewhere between a quarter and a third. That does not amount to very much of a mandate for strike action. I think it was irresponsible and I wish it had not happened.
Mr David Hamilton (Midlothian) (Lab)
Some on the Government Benches, when they are baying against the unions, should understand the history. It was the Thatcher Government who gave us the political levy, and that decision allows individual trade unionists to pay the levy to the Labour party. I want to try to be helpful. The reason that we are having the dispute today, apart from all the obvious arguments about the cut taking place by the Government, is that when a union holds a ballot, it has a finite amount of time before it has to take industrial action. If the Government did away with that stupid rule, which was brought in by the Thatcher Government, we would have been able to continue negotiations. Is that not correct?
Mr Maude
I start by saying that we are in continuing negotiations. There will be negotiations tomorrow, the day after, next week and the week after, so negotiations are continuing. I agree with the hon. Gentleman that the way the law works at present creates a perverse incentive for unions to take action. We suggested a number of ways in which the mandate could be kept open. For example, in order to keep a mandate open but not inconvenience the public, the National Union of Rail, Maritime and Transport Workers has called a two-hour strike in the middle of the night. In the Royal Mail, the Communication Workers Union has occasionally called five-minute strikes in order to keep a mandate open. It was not necessary, in order to keep this mandate open, for the unions to call a full strike. I am happy to say that most of their members have ignored the call.
Andrea Leadsom (South Northamptonshire) (Con)
Mr Speaker, I hope you will not think it unparliamentary language if I say that I am gobsmacked by today’s strike action. If anybody is responsible for the biggest attack on our pensions ever, it was the previous Government, who raided our private sector pensions. There were no strikes then. That has left the private sector with very little in their pensions. Does my right hon. Friend think the time is right to look again at the ten-minute rule Bill introduced by my hon. Friend the Member for Esher and Walton (Mr Raab) suggesting that a minimum level of turnout should be required for any ballots on future strikes, particularly under the circumstances, which are so unbalanced towards the private sector?
Mr Maude
I am aware of the motion, and I am aware of the case having been made by the CBI, among others, for such a change in the law. We think that the law can work well and we do not see any priority for making changes along those lines, but every time a strike is called on the basis of a very low turnout in a ballot, those advocates for change will feel that their hand is strengthened.
Tony Lloyd (Manchester Central) (Lab)
The House will understand why the Minister has wriggled so consistently on this question of part-time workers on below £15,000, who will be paying the 3%. Can he explain to the people who will be paying that why they have to pay 3% income tax while the bankers’ bonuses are left untouched?
Mr Maude
I remind the hon. Gentleman that under the scheme put in place by the Labour Government, there would have been an increase of £1 billion in the contribution paid by public sector staff towards their pensions in April next year in any event. The proposal we are making is only slightly ahead of that, and we are exempting large numbers of low-paid workers from the effects of it. I repeat that 750,000 low-paid public sector workers will have no increase in their contributions as a result of the specific protections that the coalition Government have put in place.
John Glen (Salisbury) (Con)
Given that only one in 10 low-paid private sector workers could afford anything like the pension arrangements for comparably paid people in the public sector, does my right hon. Friend agree that urgent reform is necessary if we are to have anything like fairness for all?
Mr Maude
In his report, Lord Hutton made it clear that he did not want public sector pension reform to be a race to the bottom, and we totally agree with that. We want as many people as possible to have access to a decent pension in retirement, but we want the public sector pensions that persist after reforms have been put in place to continue to be decent pensions that are sustainable for the long-term future. That is what we are aiming at, and that is what we will achieve.
Mr David Anderson (Blaydon) (Lab)
In relation to turnout, could the right hon. Gentleman reflect on the fact that only 39% of his constituents voted for him and only 27% of the constituents of the Chief Secretary to the Treasury voted for him? We do not need any lectures about turnout. Notwithstanding the confidentiality of some of the negotiations, will the Minister put in the Library a document showing exactly where we are with the negotiations and, in particular, where we are with the local government negotiations, where, as far as I am aware, no offer has been made?
Mr Maude
My right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary came and stood at the Dispatch Box on 2 November and made an offer. What is going on in the discussions on the four schemes is that the elements that he announced are being worked over, in conjunction with the unions, to work out what the best configuration is for the future. All these work forces are different—they have different salary profiles, different demographics, different age profiles—and the right arrangement of those moving parts within each scheme will also differ. That is where the negotiations are taking place, in order to arrive at the right agreed outcome. That is happening at the moment, so the idea that no offer has been made is completely irrelevant and immaterial.
Justin Tomlinson (North Swindon) (Con)
If we fail to make sustainable reform, to what extent will future generations be liable?
Mr Maude
My hon. Friend makes the right point. If the reform goes through, as it will, this will be a settlement for a generation and future Governments will not have to come back, as we have had to do to clear up the mess left by the last Government, who bottled it. If there is no sustainable reform, the burden on future generations will be significant. We cannot have a position where an ever smaller working population continues to pay for the pensions of an ever larger retired population. People are living longer. Life expectancy is rising every year. A 60-year-old today can expect to live for 10 years longer than could a 60-year-old in the 1970s. It is absurd to suppose that we can have the same retirement age today as we had then.
Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/Co-op)
The Minister has consistently refused to address the issue of low-paid part-time workers and the extra contribution they will have to make on a pro rata basis. Does he deny that those people—many of them the lowest-paid women working in the public sector—will be more affected than others?
Margot James (Stourbridge) (Con)
In view of the fact that a private sector worker would have to contribute, on average, a third of their salary in order to get a similar pension to a public sector worker, and that without reform the public pensions bill would cost an additional £7 billion in borrowing, may I urge my right hon. Friend not to compromise any further on the generous offer that he has already made?
Mr Maude
We have made a generous offer. It means that many people in the public sector, especially those on lower and middle incomes, will be able to retire on a pension at least as good as they can expect at the moment. But we have said that that offer was conditional on there being agreement, so we want the discussions in the schemes to continue even more intensively than they have been already so that we can give effect to that offer.
John Cryer (Leyton and Wanstead) (Lab)
Public sector workers will have to work longer and get less out of their pension schemes while, this year alone, bankers walked away with £7 billion in bonuses. I know that the Minister will say that he cannot do anything about that, but does he think that it is fair?
Laura Sandys (South Thanet) (Con)
I commend the immigration contingency plan. My husband came through Heathrow very smoothly at 6 o’clock this morning. There was a lack of enthusiasm for the mandate for this strike. Will my right hon. Friend update us on exactly how many people are taking industrial action, as enthusiasm for being on strike today seems not to reflect the unions’ enthusiasm for this event?
Mr Maude
I am delighted that my hon. Friend’s husband had an easy ride. There are reports that, at some airports, the service is better than it usually is. I commend all those immigration staff who have come to work as normal and all of those who have, in a public-spirited way, volunteered to help to ensure that the borders are secure and that disruption is kept to an absolute minimum.
Emma Reynolds (Wolverhampton North East) (Lab)
Will the right hon. Gentleman confirm that a community nurse working two days a week on an extremely low salary of £10,000 a year will have to pay the 3% surcharge? If that is the case, does he think that it is fair?
Mr Maude
Unlike the Labour Government, we are tiering the increases in contributions in a progressive way so that people on the lowest pay are protected and those on highest pay will pay most. We think that that is a fair way of doing it. Someone who is working part-time, on a full-time equivalent salary of between £15,000 and £21,000, will have their increase in contributions capped at 1.5%. If it is below £15,000, they pay nothing more. We think that is fair. The full-time equivalent basis about which she is complaining is what her own Government put in place.
Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con)
As a former private sector worker, I know how many people will be wondering, given the irresponsible nature of these strikes, why £113 million of Government money is paid to the unions. Would it not be better used on body armour for our troops in the field, or on looking after sick babies in our hospitals by improving intensive care?
Mr Maude
It is entirely correct that a large amount of taxpayers’ money is effectively used to pay for full and part-time union officials. There can be perfectly good justification for some of that, in order to sort out local disputes quickly and effectively, but that there should now be 260 full-time union officials on the civil service payroll is really hard to justify, and we are reviewing it.
Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP)
I regret the trade union action while negotiations are going on, and the Northern Ireland economy can ill afford the cost of this. Will the Minister confirm that the offer on the table is not a final offer and that, in ongoing negotiations, he will consider the impact on low-paid part-time workers and the appropriateness of raising the pension age for people who are engaged in physical activity, such as firemen?
Mr Maude
We absolutely take those points on board. I, too, regret the additional disruption that there is today in Northern Ireland, where the whole public transport system has come to a halt. As the hon. Gentleman says, the Northern Ireland economy can ill afford that kind of disruption. There is a great deal of flexibility within the negotiations. There are a lot of moving parts and they will be put together in different combinations in different schemes. We are very much aware of concerns of the sort that he raises.
Jane Ellison (Battersea) (Con)
The move to basing pensions on a career average is good news for very many women. Does my right hon. Friend share my frustration that Labour Members seem so determined constantly to portray women as victims rather than take pride in this important move?
Mr Maude
My hon. Friend is completely right. The move from final salary to career average schemes is of particular benefit to a lot of women, who, as has been said, form the majority of the public sector work force. Many women will have taken a career break and so their final salary will provide a less good basis for a good pension than the career average, which is what we seek to put in place.
Paul Blomfield (Sheffield Central) (Lab)
The Minister has repeated an assertion made by the Prime Minister that workers on low and middle incomes would get a larger pension at retirement than they do now. Does he accept, as has been widely reported, that that is contradicted by the Government’s own pensions calculator and that, for example, a worker on an average wage of £26,000 retiring with accrued service of 10 years at this point, whether at 60 or 67, would have a substantially worse pension despite the additional contributions?
Mr Maude
I do not believe that that is the case. Public sector workers on middle and lower incomes will be able to retire—albeit many of them later than they currently expect and having paid more towards it; we are perfectly open about that—on a pension that is at least as good, and many of them will be able to retire on a better pension than they currently expect.
Jonathan Evans (Cardiff North) (Con)
Does my right hon. Friend share my concern that very many of those who are engaged in industrial action, including many of my constituents—half my constituents work in the public sector—are completely unaware of the offer that he has made in relation to defending accrued rights of all pensioners up to the date of change, and of the significant improvement in accrual rates announced by the Chief Secretary, which gives the lie to the claim that we have just heard from the Labour Benches?
Mr Maude
My hon. Friend is completely right. We have done our best to get the details of the offer through to members of the public sector staff directly and to correct the misleading indications given by some trade union leaders, which I deeply regret. He is absolutely right to draw attention to the commitment we have made that all accrued rights are protected. What has been paid for up until now will be honoured in full.
Tom Blenkinsop (Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland) (Lab)
The Minister said recently that the north-east is heavily dependent on the public sector, and the loss of a day’s pay means less spending power in the north-east economy. That will impact on the economy, for sure. What does he believe will happen after he has sacked 700,000 public sector workers? Is it not the case that, whether someone took strike action today or not, they will probably not have a job?
Mr Maude
I am really sorry that the north-east economy is going to take a bigger hit than other parts of the economy because the Tyne and Wear metro has been closed down, completely unnecessarily. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will join me in strongly condemning that irresponsible strike action, which will have inflicted damage on the economy of the north-east and inevitably led to there being more job losses than would otherwise be the case.
Esther McVey (Wirral West) (Con)
Does the Minister agree that unions are important organisations that have to get the right and fair deal? This morning I was on Radio Merseyside with Frank Hont from Unison, and we both agreed that it had to be a fair deal, but a fair deal for private sector workers, for public sector workers, for the taxpayer and for future generations, putting pensions on a fair and sustainable footing for the future.
Mr Maude
I totally agree with my hon. Friend. I can confirm that for most of the time we have been conducting these negotiations, the union leaders and the TUC have been behaving in the way that trade unions should in representing their members in a tough and effective way. Where they have gone wrong is in holding ballots and calling a strike at a time when negotiations are still continuing and we are making progress towards a settlement that is fair for taxpayers generally and very fair for public sector workers.
Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab)
I respect the right of workers in the private or public sector to take legal strike action; that used to be the position of the Conservatives and, indeed, the Liberals. As the Minister will know, some teachers are taking strike action for the first time. On Friday I met a delegation who said that the teachers’ pension scheme has not been valued, that there is a surplus in it, and that the Government are refusing to review the scheme. Will he publish the valuation of that scheme, which they say is in surplus and is not costing the taxpayer money?
Mr Maude
That is wrong in so many ways that it is hard to know where to start. The hon. Gentleman talks as though there is a surplus in a fund. I am sorry to break this to him, but there is no fund. Teachers’ pensions are being paid for by contributions paid predominantly by the taxpayer. There is not a surplus; there is no fund whatsoever. We have to get a better balance between what teachers themselves pay towards their pensions and what the wider taxpayer pays, and that is what we will do. However, there will still be more paid by the wider taxpayer than by teachers, and we support that too.
Gavin Barwell (Croydon Central) (Con)
I join my right hon. Friend in thanking public sector workers who, despite being angry about pay freezes and pension changes, are serving the public today.
Further to the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff North (Jonathan Evans), a Labour councillor in my home town today told public sector workers that the money saved is going to be used to bail out the banks. What more can the Government do to make sure that people get told the truth about why these changes are being made and the detailed nature of the offer?
Mr Maude
We will do everything we can. We have communicated directly with civil servants because the Government are their employer and we can do that very directly. It is much more difficult to communicate directly with all teachers and people working in the NHS, because they are employed by a wide range of different, dispersed employers. However, the fact is that most public sector workers—more than three quarters—have ignored the call to take part in this irresponsible strike, and I warmly commend them for doing so.
Richard Burden (Birmingham, Northfield) (Lab)
I put it to the Minister that the willingness to negotiate has got to be a bit more than the willingness to attend meetings. A while ago, Ministers said that the offer was “final”. Is it a final offer or not; and, specifically, will the Minister negotiate around the 3%?
Mr Maude
We have made it clear that if, in the discussions within the sectors, there can be alternative ways of delivering the savings that are needed in the comprehensive spending review period, we will consider those suggestions. However, no such suggestions have been made. I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for at least conceding for the first time from the Labour Benches that negotiations are continuing and making progress. There are still a lot of moving parts, and we need to discuss how they are put together to achieve a fair and sustainable result. I hope that we can continue to intensify that process and make further progress after today’s irresponsible strike action.
Stephen Mosley (City of Chester) (Con)
Will the Minister confirm that in return for paying a little bit more and working a little bit longer, many public sector workers will still be able to retire at 55, and that many low-income and middle-income earners will receive higher pensions under the Government’s proposals than they do currently?
Mr Maude
That is the case. We are absolutely clear that people who, in April next year, will be within 10 years of their expected retirement date will see no change to their retirement age. There are some who are currently looking to retire at 55, and if they are within 10 years of that retirement date, that will be honoured and their pension will be paid in exactly the same way that is envisaged at the moment.
Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab)
The Minister says that he has huge respect for public sector workers, but at the same time his Government are sacking tens of thousands of them. Regarding lower-paid part-time women workers, will he put in the Library some examples of the impact that the change from RPI to CPI has had on their pensions?
Mr Maude
We have made available a huge range of information about the effects of the changes to public sector pensions, and there will continue to be more as the negotiations make further progress in the weeks ahead.
I just want to make this point about the job losses. I very much regret that there will continue to be job losses in the public sector. If we had not inherited the biggest budget deficit in the developed world from the Government of whom the hon. Gentleman was a member, those jobs would not be at risk today.
Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con)
The Minister knows that I, as one who has worked in the civil service and as the brother and son of teachers, have huge respect for people who work in public service. However, I also believe that many teachers and nurses in my constituency have been woefully misinformed about the details of a complex pension proposal by their unions and by statements from the Labour party. Will he clarify, once and for all, for all hon. Members and for my constituents in Gloucester, that the lowest paid 15% of the work force who are on less than £15,000 a year––about 750,000 people, of whom 85% are women––will pay no extra contributions and will receive a better pension than the one they now receive, inherited from the previous Government?
Mr Maude
I can confirm that and add that many of the lowest paid in the public sector will pay no more towards their pension. When the basic state pension is added on top of the occupational pension, they will be able to retire on a bigger income than they were earning while they were employed.
Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP)
What discussions has the Minister had with ministerial colleagues in the Northern Ireland Executive about building stable industrial relations, which would contribute to the local economy, rather than allowing them to undermine low-paid public sector workers who have higher costs to pay for everyday essentials?
Mr Maude
It is the responsibility of all the devolved Administrations to make their own arrangements and conduct their own industrial relations. We conduct our own approach to industrial relations, which involves very intensive discussions with the trade unions that are continuing on an almost daily basis.
Chris Kelly (Dudley South) (Con)
Further to the answer that my right hon. Friend gave the hon. Member for Birmingham, Northfield (Richard Burden), does he agree that it is disingenuous of militant trade union leaders to claim that there have been no recent negotiations when he has explicitly confirmed in his most illuminating statement that talks continued until only yesterday?
Chris Williamson (Derby North) (Lab)
Why do the Government so despise public sector workers such as nurses, doctors, teachers and street care cleaners as to impose a swingeing tax increase when the contributions to pension funds exceed their liabilities? The local government pension fund has an annual surplus of £4 billion to £5 billion. How is that fair and how can he justify it?
Mr Speaker
Order. The hon. Gentleman must calm himself. There will be an opportunity for points of order, but it does not arise in the middle of a statement.
Mr Maude
Far from having the views about public sector workers that the hon. Member for Derby North (Chris Williamson) wrongly attributes to me, all of us in this House have dedicated ourselves to public service. We know that this is an honourable calling and we know how dedicated are the 6 million public sector workers. I commend the 75% to 80% of public sector workers who have ignored the irresponsible call for strike action and gone to work today as usual.
Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)
Will my right hon. Friend take this opportunity to praise those ordinary, hard-working trade unionists in Kettering who have crossed picket lines today to go work to serve members of the public and refused to believe the misleading advice they get from their overpaid, hot-headed trade union bosses, who are itching for a fight with the Government?
Mr Maude
I am afraid that there are some trade union leaders who seem to be absolutely hellbent on confrontation and industrial action. We absolutely did not want that and I join my hon. Friend in commending those of his constituents who are trade union members but who have ignored the call to strike, crossed the picket lines and gone to work to serve the public, as is their vocation.
Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab)
As a trade union member, I place on record that I am here this afternoon specifically to represent in Parliament the concerns of my constituents who are trade union members, as they wish me to do. In the light of the news yesterday of a further restriction on pay increases in the public sector, they are particularly concerned about how they are to meet the additional 3% cost. Will the Minister say if there is an opportunity for meaningful negotiation around the timing as well as the rate of any increase in contribution?
Mr Maude
As I said earlier, we have made it clear that the savings that have been baked into the spending settlement for the comprehensive spending review period need to be delivered. If the discussions produce alternative ways of delivering those savings, we have said that we are open to hearing them. We have not heard any yet. Of course the hon. Lady is entitled to represent the interests of her trade union member constituents. I hope that she will also represent the interests of all those in the private sector who pay their taxes, which pay for the lion’s share of the public sector pensions that public sector workers will continue to enjoy.
Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con)
On the questions that the hon. Member for Nottingham South (Lilian Greenwood) and others asked about part-time public sector workers, does the Minister agree that the responsible conversation to have with them is to say, “Don’t protest. Do pay an extra 3%, because you are getting in return for that a pension that would cost you 38% to buy in the real world”?
Mr Maude
My hon. Friend is right. The public sector is as much the real world as any other, but in the private sector, staff would have to pay a very significant part of their salary––more than a third––in contributions to buy pensions as good as these. We want these to continue to be among the very best pension schemes available. That is why we are pushing forward these reforms, with a settlement for a generation, so that future Governments will not have to clear up the mess the last Government left behind.
Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab)
Does the Minister agree that it is fair and legitimate for the wider British public to know when he personally took part in negotiations with unions? I heard what he said earlier, but in the interests of transparency, should he not publish this information?
Mr Maude
I say again to the hon. Lady that there are formal negotiations on a continuing basis within the schemes. There are many informal contacts that happen on a continuing basis. Those are kept confidential, not at my request but at that of the TUC, and I will continue to honour that.
Gemma Doyle (West Dunbartonshire) (Lab/Co-op)
The Minister seems to have given my hon. Friend the Member for Stretford and Urmston (Kate Green) an answer on the 3% different from that given by the Chief Secretary to the Treasury. Can he confirm that he is willing to negotiate on the 3%?
Mr Maude
What I said, and what my right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary to the Treasury said as well, was that the savings that are represented by the average increase of 3.2% must be delivered. If there are other ways of delivering it, we are willing to listen to them, but no suggestions have been made. In the absence of suggestions about how those savings can be delivered by other means within the pension schemes, we are requiring that those contribution increases will be made, but with protection for lower-paid workers.
Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab)
I am dismayed by the Minister’s statement today that the low response to the call for strike action reflects the dedication of those who did not vote for it to their public service calling. That clearly implies that those who voted in favour do not have the same dedication. Does that apply to the 57% of the health care physios’ union, the near 50% of the Royal Society of Radiographers and other health professional organisations that voted in the same proportions? Those figures relate to the total work force, not the turnout in the vote. Does he feel that they are in any way at all not as dedicated?
Mr Maude
I did not make the distinction that the hon. Gentleman suggests. All I am saying is that in the public sector work force of nearly 6 million people, over three quarters have gone to work today and ignored the irresponsible call to strike action. If I am going to discriminate between those who have gone to work to follow their public service calling and those who followed the irresponsible call to strike action, then I commend those who have gone to work over those who have gone on strike while negotiations are continuing.
Mr Frank Roy (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
The Minister knows that he is accountable to Parliament—full stop. He is treating Parliament with contempt by not telling Parliament when he—when he—last met trade union organisations. Will he now set the record straight?
Jonathan Ashworth (Leicester South) (Lab)
Does the Paymaster General not recognise that many public sector workers taking industrial action today do so reluctantly, with a heavy heart and because they feel that what is on offer is simply not fair? May I press him a little further on his answers to my hon. Friends the Members for Birmingham, Northfield (Richard Burden) and for West Dunbartonshire (Gemma Doyle)? Is he now saying that he is definitely prepared to countenance meaningful negotiations on the 3% increase?
Mr Maude
I have made it as clear as I possibly can, but I will say it again: the savings represented within the pension schemes and within the comprehensive spending review period by an average 3.2% increase in contributions must be delivered. We have made that clear.
We have made it clear also that we are willing to entertain suggestions on how those savings can be delivered in other ways. We have heard no such suggestions, so those contribution increases—the first of which will go through in April, and which are actually of the same order of magnitude as those that would have gone through under the previous Government’s reforms in any event—will go ahead.
Cyber-security Strategy
Lord Maude of Horsham Excerpts(12 years, 5 months ago)
Written StatementsRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General (Mr Francis Maude)
I have today published the new cyber-security strategy for the United Kingdom. I have placed a copy in the Library.
The growth of the internet has transformed our everyday lives.
But with greater openness, interconnection and dependency comes greater vulnerability. The threat to our national security from cyber-attacks is real and growing. Organised criminals, terrorists, hostile states, and “hacktivists” are all seeking to exploit cyberspace to their own ends.
This Government have moved swiftly to tackle the growing danger posed by cyber-attacks. Our national security strategy published last year classed cyber-security as one of our top priorities alongside international terrorism, international military crises and natural disasters. To support the implementation of our objectives we have committed new funding of £650 million over four years for a transformative national cyber-security programme (NCSP) to strengthen the UK’s cyber-capabilities.
The new cyber-security strategy we have published today sets out how the UK will tackle cyber-threats to promote economic growth and to protect our nation’s security and our way of life.
One of our key aims is to make the UK one of the most secure places in the world to do business. Currently, around 6% of the UK’s GDP is enabled by the internet and this is set to grow. But with this opportunity comes greater threats. Online crime, including intellectual property theft, costs the UK economy billions each year. So we must take steps to preserve this growth, by tackling cybercrime and bolstering our defences, to ensure that confidence in the internet as a way of communicating and transacting remains.
The Government cannot tackle this challenge alone. The private sector—which owns, maintains and creates most of the very spaces we are seeking to defend—has a crucial role to play too. This strategy outlines how we will cement a real and meaningful partnership between the Government and private sector in the fight against cyber-attacks, to help improve security, build our reputation as a safe place to do business online, and turn threats into opportunities by fostering a strong UK market in cyber-security solutions.
Together with the private sector, we are pioneering a new national cyber-security “hub” that will allow the Government and businesses to exchange information on threats and responses. This promises to transform the way we manage cyber-attacks and greatly strengthen our security capacity. We will work with the business services sector to raise industry awareness. We will also work with industry to develop private sector-led standards for cyber-security that help consumers navigate the market in security products and give firms which are good at security the means to make it a selling point.
The UK is a world leader in cyber-security research, development and innovation. GCHQ is the lead in this area and the new strategy aims to capitalise on this through an innovative approach which will explore options with UK industry to harness this expertise and know-how for the benefit of the UK economy.
This strategy also outlines our plans for a new cybercrime unit with the National Crime Agency, to be up and running by 2013. This unit will build on the groundbreaking work of the Metropolitan police’s e-crime unit by expanding the deployment of “cyber-specials”, giving police forces across the country the necessary skills and experience to handle cybercrimes. We will also ensure that the police use existing powers to ensure that cybercriminals are appropriately sanctioned as well as introducing a new single reporting system to report financially motivated cybercrime through the existing Action Fraud reporting centre.
To defend against significant threats we need to continue the work we are doing to protect and prepare our critical national infrastructure. We also need to update our military defence capabilities for a new cyber-world; this strategy outlines the creation of a new joint cyber unit hosted by GCHQ which will develop our military capabilities to give the UK a comparative advantage in cyberspace.
We will also strengthen the role of the Centre for Protection of the National Infrastructure to increase its reach to organisations that have not previously been considered as part of the critical infrastructure, thereby augmenting our ability to protect critical systems and intellectual property.
Prevention and education are also crucial. Get Safe Online is a very good example of how Government, industry and law enforcement can work together to address this issue and improve the website by early 2012. In addition, we will work with ISPs to seek a new voluntary code of conduct to help people identify if their computers have been compromised and what they can do about it.
Cyber-risks are transnational in nature. We will work with other countries to tackle them. Through the London cyber conference, hosted by the Foreign Secretary earlier this month, the UK is taking a lead in addressing international discussions on how we can establish a more focused international dialogue to develop principles to guide the behaviour of Governments and others in cyberspace. We will continue to foster this level of international dialogue through various forums and through international co-operation on tackling cybercrime.
This strategy sets out the change that is needed; we now need to work together to deliver it. The Government will update the House in a year’s time on how we are doing.
Post-legislative Scrutiny of the Statistics and Registration Service Act 2007
Lord Maude of Horsham Excerpts(12 years, 6 months ago)
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The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General (Mr Francis Maude)
The Government have published today the memorandum to the Public Administration Select Committee on the post-legislative scrutiny of the Statistics and Registration Service Act 2007 on the Cabinet Office website:
http://www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/resource-library/post-legislative-scrutiny-statistics-and-registration-service-act-2007-cm-8216.
Cabinet Office carried out the post-legislative scrutiny, which includes a preliminary assessment of how far the Statistics and Registration Service Act 2007 has worked in practice, and has set out the findings in a Command Paper (Cm 8216) to the Committee. This is in accordance with the current guidelines of carrying out post-legislative scrutiny of a Bill within three to five years of it receiving Royal Assent.
Copies of the Command Paper have been placed in the Libraries of both Houses and also in the Vote Office and Printed Paper Office.
Oral Answers to Questions
Lord Maude of Horsham Excerpts(12 years, 6 months ago)
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Mr James Clappison (Hertsmere) (Con)
4. What assessment he has made of the potential role of the open government partnership in promoting openness and transparency.
The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General (Mr Francis Maude)
Transparency is an idea whose time has come. It makes choice possible, it encourages accountability, and it can change lives. The United Kingdom Government are already the world leader in transparency, and the open government partnership will enable those huge benefits to be promoted to many other countries around the world.
Mr Clappison
The open government partnership is an interesting and exciting concept. Can my right hon. Friend tell me the key UK transparency commitments within it?
Mr Maude
All the principles underlying the partnership reflect things that we have already introduced: openness about Government spending, openness about salaries, openness about the internal workings of government, and an increase in the publication of outcome data about the way in which public services operate. We have said that commitment to and implementation of the principles of the open government partnership will increasingly be a material factor in decisions by the Department for International Development about where to place direct budget support for developing country Governments.
Mr Denis MacShane (Rotherham) (Lab)
In the interests of open government, will the Minister agree to publish all the credit card expenses of Ministers and officials under the sum of £500 in all Departments, starting with the Housing Minister?
Mr Maude
It is good to hear the right hon. Gentleman being so enthusiastic about transparency. We have already published Government payment card data covering transactions between April and August this year, and we will continue to do so. We will publish the data for 2010 and 2011, and Departments will also have the option of publishing data for the previous year, when the last Government were in office. I look forward to enthusiastic support from the Labour party when the transactions made when it was in office are made public.
Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con)
I thank the Minister for that response, and in particular for what he said about the last Government. I believe that the limit should be zero rather than £500, because we would not have known about the expenditure of the NHS on finger puppets if a higher limit had applied.
Mr Maude
My hon. Friend makes the purist case for the disclosure of absolutely everything, but we have gone infinitely further than any Government have ever gone before in exposing the spending of Departments. Of course we will keep that under review, but the first thing we need to do is complete the publication of the data on transactions below £500, including some that took place under the last Government.
Jon Trickett (Hemsworth) (Lab)
Given the pride the Minister obviously takes in transparency, is it not slightly odd that his Department, which leads on these matters for the whole Government, has the worst record in responding to freedom of information requests? Indeed, some people might think that is almost fishy. Since coming into office, the number of FOI requests answered on time by his Department has nosedived from 90% in March 2010 to only 42% in March this year. What do they have to hide? Will the Minister now tell us when he intends to get his house in order on FOI?
Mr Maude
First, I welcome the hon. Gentleman to his post and congratulate him on his elevation to the shadow Cabinet.
The Cabinet Office deals with FOI requests in respect of Cabinet papers under the last Government, and that takes some time to deal with because we need to consult former Ministers in that Government. Any FOI requests relating to the royal family also need to be dealt with sensitively, with a lot of consultation. I notice that the hon. Gentleman does not raise the issue of Government procurement cards, and does not echo the response of his colleague, the hon. Member for Barnsley East (Michael Dugher), who said, when we published these data, that we had gone on a spending spree, when, in fact, we had cut spending under Government procurement cards by 10% compared with the record of his party.
Karl MᶜCartney (Lincoln) (Con)
5. What the cost to the public purse was of the provision of trade union facility time by Government Departments in the last year for which figures are available.
The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General (Mr Francis Maude)
Total spend on trade union facility time across the civil service is estimated to be around £30 million a year, while in the public sector as a whole the estimate is £225 million. ACAS guidance suggests this system should be regularly reviewed. Strangely, we have not been able to find any evidence that it was reviewed under the last Government.
Karl MᶜCartney
I thank my right hon. Friend for that very revealing answer. He will be aware of the current scandal of public sector employees spending 100% of their time on union activities while still drawing their publicly funded salary. My constituents in Lincoln expect their thousands of pounds in taxes to be used to pay for public services, not union activities. This situation clearly does not—
Karl MᶜCartney
Will my right hon. Friend assure me that as part of any consultation or meeting, such as the one he had today, he will fully examine this scandal?
Mr Maude
As I have said, we are going to consult on this. We will want to look very carefully at the phenomenon whereby large numbers of civil servants and other public servants are engaged full time as union officials at the taxpayers’ expense. There may be a case for some of this continuing, but certainly not on the scale we inherited from the Labour party.
Mr Gerry Sutcliffe (Bradford South) (Lab)
But is there not also a point to be made about how much money is saved to the public purse by having good industrial relations? Instead of going backwards, should not the Minister be going forward and talking about how he could improve industrial relations?
Mr Maude
If the hon. Gentleman wishes to make the case for why more and more taxpayers’ money should be spent on subsidising union officials, let him do so, and let him explain to his constituents why that is good value when what they want is taxpayers’ money to be spent on front-line public services, on which the most vulnerable people in our society depend.
Jonathan Ashworth (Leicester South) (Lab)
6. What recent progress he has made in increasing the number of central Government contracts secured by the third sector.
Mr Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con)
8. What plans he has for the future of the role of the head of the civil service.
The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General (Mr Francis Maude)
The roles of Cabinet Secretary and head of the civil service are very different and were indeed separate roles until 1981. Following the announcement of the retirement of Sir Gus O’Donnell, the role of head of the civil service will, once again, be separated from the Cabinet Secretary role. The two individual roles will be more focused, and people can be appointed to each on the basis of the skills match to each role. An internal competition is under way to recruit the post holder from among existing permanent secretaries.
Mr Jenkin
Change is the watchword of the Prime Minister and change in government is a vital ingredient of the Government’s reform programme. How will the head of the civil service be able to lead and implement change if he does not have equal authority and equal access to the centre of government as he does now?
Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP)
Is the Minister satisfied that with the split of the new roles, the various questions of probity, propriety and procedure that were aired in the O’Donnell report on the Werritty affair will be clearly brought to a known figure in the future, or will there be confusion?
Katy Clark (North Ayrshire and Arran) (Lab)
T1. If he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities.
The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General (Mr Francis Maude)
My responsibilities as Minister for the Cabinet Office are for the public sector efficiency and reform group, civil service issues, industrial relations strategy in the public sector, Government transparency, civil contingencies, civil society and cyber-security.
Katy Clark
The average pension for a woman retiring from the NHS is £3,000 and the average local government pension is £4,000. Does the Minister accept that if we increase the contributions for a worse pension, more people will simply opt out and we will end up paying more through the state benefits system?
Mr Maude
It is in no one’s interest that public sector workers should opt out of pension schemes. The numbers to which the hon. Lady refers do not in any way reflect the pension that people retire on after a full career. That is the average, including many people who serve relatively short times in the public service. At the end of these reforms public sector pensions will still be among the very best available, much better than those available to most people in the private sector, who have no chance of enjoying such pensions. [Interruption.]
Mr Speaker
Order. There are far too many noisy private conversations taking place. The House will want to hear Stephen Mosley.
Stephen Mosley (City of Chester) (Con)
T3. Thank you, Mr Speaker. Can the Minister update the House on the progress of negotiations with the trade unions on public sector pension reform?
Mr Maude
We have made progress and my right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary and I met the TUC again this morning. My right hon. Friend will make a statement to the House later. As I said, our intention is that public sector pensions will continue to be among the very best available, but fair both to public sector staff and to the general taxpayer, who has had to bear an increasing burden of the cost of paying for these pensions in recent years.
Michael Dugher (Barnsley East) (Lab)
During last week’s debate on the Public Bodies Bill, the Government voted to scrap the role of the chief coroner, despite opposition from Opposition Members and from Back-Bench Conservative Members as well. Responding, the Royal British Legion said that it was
“saddened that this opportunity to do the right thing by bereaved Service families was not taken”
by the Government. As we approach Remembrance Sunday, is it not time that the Government did the right thing and listened to the Royal British Legion?
Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con)
T4. Can my right hon. Friend say how the British Government compare with the French Government when it comes to the number of contracts they procure with domestic suppliers?
Mr Maude
The procurement practice that we inherited from the previous Government militates heavily against the interests of UK suppliers and UK jobs, especially when it comes to very large contracts. Both France and Germany, which do not operate protectionist regimes and which obey the rules, give away fewer jobs to other countries. We are looking at this to see how we can support UK suppliers in a way that the previous Government signally failed to do.
Jake Berry (Rossendale and Darwen) (Con)
T5. People in Edgworth in my constituency found out that their bus service is being scrapped for want of £10,000, although the local authority can still find almost £100,000 to support trade union activity. What action will the Government take to end taxpayer-funded activity within the public sector?
Mr Maude
I have already said what we are planning to do in relation to the civil service. Obviously, local authorities must answer for their own affairs, but the guidance is that those arrangements should be reviewed regularly. I urge my hon. Friend to put pressure on his local authority to explain how it justifies spending money that should be spent on front-line public services supporting vulnerable people on subsidising trade union activity instead.
Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab)
What discussions has the Minister had with colleagues who are responsible for the Work programme about openness and transparency? They are yet to publish any performance data on the programme. Moreover, they have banned Work programme providers from publishing their own performance data, as many of them would like to do.
Mr Maude
All the indications are that the Work programme is a successful move, and I will make those representations to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions. We are generally the most open Government ever. We lead the world in transparency and have gone much further than the Government of whom the right hon. Gentleman was a distinguished member ever dreamt of going.
Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con)
T6. Having heard the excellent news this week on the increase in apprenticeship places, which are up 50% to 442,000, does my hon. Friend agree that the national citizen service can also play a key role in helping our young people into work?
Civil Service Training and Development
Lord Maude of Horsham Excerpts(12 years, 7 months ago)
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The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General (Mr Francis Maude)
I am today announcing further steps in reforms to make civil service training more modern, efficient and cost-effective.
For too long we have relied on expensive residential and classroom-based training, duplicating effort across Departments. The new Civil Service Learning will focus on work-based approaches including e-learning and will directly involve managers in the training process.
The reforms in training will save around £90 million per year and at the same time improve the quality and impact of training. It will also create greater flexibility by sourcing much of the training from external providers including small and medium-sized enterprises.
As part of these reforms, the National School of Government will close on 31 March 2012. Until then the school will remain open for business and provide a range of products to support Civil Service Learning.
The changes will:
ensure that we get the best value when we buy training through improved procurement—moving away from Department-based procurement to a civil service-wide approach leveraging economies of scale;
ensure consistency in civil service skills development and enable better evaluation and control of training effectiveness and value for money;
ensure civil service training is delivered in line with modern practice in other organisations, move away from expensive residential and classroom-based training and focus more on work-based and supported online learning;
ensure that by 1 April 2012, all Government training and development spend will be channelled through one operator—CSL.
Scientific Advice (Emergencies)
Lord Maude of Horsham Excerpts(12 years, 8 months ago)
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Westminster Hall is an alternative Chamber for MPs to hold debates, named after the adjoining Westminster Hall.
Each debate is chaired by an MP from the Panel of Chairs, rather than the Speaker or Deputy Speaker. A Government Minister will give the final speech, and no votes may be called on the debate topic.
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General (Mr Francis Maude)
I am grateful to all Members who have taken part in this important debate for its tone and the many helpful insights that they have provided. I commend the detailed work of the Science and Technology Committee. It was undertaken in an appropriate spirit of interrogation and challenge, and contains measured and thoughtful conclusions which, for the most part, the Government have accepted.
It is important to start by saying that it is unlikely that any Government will ever get this issue completely right. The nature of emergencies means that they are unpredictable; their likelihood may rise or fall, and we do our best to estimate that, but their effects are unpredictable and we can only prepare as best we can and try to manage the risks in a sensible and proportionate way. My family motto is, “Hope for the best while confidently expecting the worst.” That is not entirely a basis on which one can prepare for emergencies because, while we hope for the best, we must plan for the worst outcome.
There is always an incredibly difficult balance to strike between underestimating a situation and appearing complacent about its malign effects on communities and the economy if we do not prepare sufficiently—although we should always err on the side of caution—and investing many resources in preparing for outcomes that are wholly unfeasible but could mean that damage is imposed on the economy or disruption on people’s lives. The nature of emergencies makes it unlikely that that balance will be achieved exactly, but it is important that we strive to get it right.
Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD)
I apologise for not being here at the beginning of the debate, but I was engaged in activities elsewhere in the House. The Minister makes a good point. At times, medical scientists may offer advice that would be hard to deliver in terms of social science. There could be a conflict between pieces of advice that are properly given by two proponents of the same profession.
Mr Maude
My hon. Friend is right, and in the end we have to make a judgment and try to prepare in a proportionate way based on the best evidence available, while acknowledging that that evidence will not always be conclusive. The process set in place through SAGE will try to distil the best view, which is important.
A number of Members have raised points about the communication of risk, which is an important issue and difficult to get right. When communicating risk to the public, it is important not to scaremonger, make people agitated or cause them to behave in a way that is not reasonable. Nor should we devote resources to something in a way that cannot be justified. At the same time, we must never be complacent.
I have thought about the concerns raised in the report and by hon. Members during the debate about the concept of the reasonable worst case. It is difficult to get the form of words right. If the word “reasonable” is inserted, it sounds as if it is a situation that we think will happen. In fact, “reasonable worst case” is not what we believe likely to happen; it is the worst case possible if we remove situations that are absurdly improbable. Pitching that statement correctly is quite difficult.
A number of hon. Members mentioned the Blackett review that will be published in the next few weeks, which we will obviously consider. The Blackett panel looked at the concept of reasonable worst case, which it believes—as do the Government—that it is essential to consider when planning and building capability. It believes, however, that we must think about the use of that concept in communicating risk because it may be that the concept of the most likely case is more useful.
Governments will always be anxious about having a figure in their possession that they have not shared. That was the case with swine flu, and I understand the concern of the Health Secretary at that time. The Government did not want to suppress a figure that might have been arrived at properly, even though it proved to be way off beam. These difficult issues need to be tackled in a serious and measured way and it would be useful to have further discussion and debate once the Blackett panel has completed its review. We must get this issue right because, when emergencies happen—as they will—it is important to have some kind of shared understanding across the political spectrum, and between the Government, Parliament and the media, about the way the concepts in question have been used and the need for responsibility when dealing with facts and estimations.
My hon. Friend the Member for Croydon Central (Gavin Barwell), who could not stay for the end of the debate because he had to be elsewhere, talked about the figures changing in the course of the swine flu epidemic. The truth is that in an emerging epidemic, there are very few cases on which scientists can make assessments; there is very little epidemiology to go on. Arguably, it is better to be honest about the possible worst case and plan for the worst; and then if events turn out very differently, at least that is better than their turning out much worse than predicted. I was asked whether we had used the reasonable worst case approach for the Fukushima event. The answer is yes, that did happen.
On the difficult issues about trying to get right the communication of risk, I am grateful for the Select Committee’s insights. The Blackett panel will produce its conclusions in due course, and we will share them and continue to have discussions and debates.
I was asked what progress had been made in response to the concerns that the Select Committee raised, which I understand, about the role of the Government chief scientific adviser in national risk assessment. Work is under way to set up an independent scientific advice group for the NRA, which will be in place in time for the 2012 NRA. The draft 2011 NRA has been sent to the Government chief scientific adviser, and he will respond to me and my officials in due course. Obviously, it is important that that assessment has the benefit of his detailed scrutiny. We are taking the conclusions and recommendations in the Committee’s report seriously and acting on them.
The Chair of the Committee, the hon. Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston (Andrew Miller), asked when SAGE guidance would be published. We are aiming for later this year. We are building in steps that are being taken in the light of the inquiry and the reflections in this debate.
I was asked about transparency. We agree that SAGE should operate on the principle of openness and transparency. The membership, minutes and key scientific advice papers for all three recent SAGE activations, which were in relation to the Japanese nuclear event in and around Fukushima, the volcanic ash eruption and the swine flu epidemic, have all now been published online. Everything is being taken forward, I hope, in the right spirit.
My hon. Friend the Member for South Basildon and East Thurrock (Stephen Metcalfe) asked about international collaboration. We work closely with international organisations—the European Union, the UN and so on—and with global leaders in this field. For example, the Singapore Government are a serious leader in this area, and we work with them. We also work with other countries with which we share risks. For example, we work closely with the Netherlands on the risks associated with North sea flooding. There is also ad hoc joint work and research on community resilience and behavioural issues. We work on that with the United States, Canada and the Australians. International collaboration is therefore very important. There is a huge amount of expertise, and it is in the interests of all countries that we benefit from one another’s knowledge, expertise and assessments.
I was asked about volcanic eruption as a risk. I assure hon. Members that the possibility of volcanic eruption is certainly not being omitted from the 2011 NRA. There are two risks in the risk assessment, one of which is a severe, gas-rich volcanic eruption that could reach toxic levels at both ground level and flight altitude. Obviously, that is less likely to occur but would have very significant impacts. We acknowledge that the volcanologists are saying that the likelihood of further volcanic eruptions is higher. We are obviously taking that into account. There is a higher likelihood of a much less severe volcanic ash-rich eruption. A great deal of knowledge was gained from the experience of the eruption last year, and a lot of action has been taken on the back of that.
Andrew Miller
Before the Minister moves on, I am curious to know how information held in other Departments is brought in. Obviously, there is a significant role in some Departments through the Civil Aviation Authority and so on, but the Ministry of Defence also has enormous expertise. Years ago, I was in the Caribbean with the Royal Navy when the volcano on Montserrat blew. The helicopter pilot at that time said to me, “Mr Miller, you can’t get any closer to take photographs because these things fall out of the sky if they get the slightest bit of dust in their engines.” There is a huge amount of information that is very old, but that we have failed to centralise. What is the right hon. Gentleman doing to shake up other parts of the machinery to get all that information together?
Mr Maude
That is a very good question. Are Government always perfect at ensuring that all the information and knowledge is harvested and garnered from all parts of Whitehall and well beyond, including all the agencies and organisations? No, not by any means. A big part of the role of my officials in the civil contingencies secretariat is to try to ensure that we bring that body of knowledge together as best we can. One would hope that in an event like the volcanic ash eruption, the Ministry of Defence would be intimately involved—I am sure that it was—in assessments and decision making. However, it is a perfectly good question. It will not always be perfectly answered, but we are conscious of the need to maximise the bringing together of all the knowledge on this front.
My hon. Friend the Member for South Basildon and East Thurrock and others talked about space weather. That is potentially a big hazard with really serious impacts. We need to deal with it in a thorough way. The truth is that more work is needed to understand what the wide range of impacts would be from a serious event. The Department of Energy and Climate Change is engaged with National Grid, the energy emergencies executive committee and the British Geological Survey to consider the implications of a severe space weather event for the electricity system as a whole, including the potential impacts on generator transformers and further consideration of the transmission network. We in the Cabinet Office will continue to work with other sectors that could be impacted to develop a more comprehensive understanding of the vulnerability. Work on that issue continues.
The only other time when there was a major event was in 1859—the Carrington event, which has been mentioned. That was a very different world. There have been other events, but they tend to be localised. The likelihood of such an event is therefore not high, but it is real and we need to address it in the best way we can.
My hon. Friend the Member for South Basildon and East Thurrock asked whether we were participating in the European Space Agency’s space situational awareness programme, which runs until 2012. We have subscribed to it. It defines the steps that need to be taken on space surveillance and space weather. The UK Space Agency will engage with the potential space weather user community and data service providers to assess the relative priority of funding space weather activities within the ESA space situational awareness programme. That will obviously need to be reconciled with competing demands for other programme opportunities and existing financial commitments, but no clear conclusion has yet been reached. However, we are very aware of the risk, and a great deal of work is going on in relation to it.
I turn to the question of cyber security, which is obviously a serious matter. It was identified in the strategic defence and security review as a high risk, and a significant budget has been attached to the national cyber security programme; as Minister responsible for the Office of Cyber Security and Information Assurance, I have oversight of that programme. Our approach is to ensure that we invest in building capability, as capability is relatively scarce. We have an affordable centre of excellence and expertise at GCHQ.
This is a question not only for the Government but for the whole economy. We discern a marked range in the degree of preparedness of private sector companies on cyber security. Some are highly developed, but it is not only companies focused on internet activities that are vulnerable; it goes much more widely than that. Some companies that ought to be concerned about cyber security do not take it as seriously as they should. Over the coming months, we will be encouraging them to address it seriously. It should be on the agenda of every risk and audit committee, to ensure that it is properly understood and dealt with.
In a few weeks’ time, I shall be publishing the Government’s cyber-security strategy and I hope that it will receive attention and be debated by the House. These are most important matters, and we must do our best to get them right.
Andrew Miller
I am fairly confident, following Sir Edmund Burton’s report on the missing Royal Navy laptop, that part of the Government’s response will be about awareness and the training of personnel. Will the Minister confirm that that will happen throughout the civil service machinery? It is no good saying that it belongs only to permanent secretaries or techies in the back room, because it affects us all. There has to be a serious campaign in the public sector to ensure that people understand how serious these challenges are.
Mr Maude
The hon. Gentleman is right, and I do not dissent for a second. Most of it is about being reasonably alert and aware, and taking common sense steps, but higher levels of vulnerability to cyber attack and cyber crime require a highly sophisticated response coupled with great awareness and agility. Information assurance and not allowing data to go amiss are mostly to do with basic standards of care and alertness.
I am grateful to have had the opportunity to respond to the Committee’s thoughtful and serious report. It has been good to ventilate these matters. I assure the House and the Committee that we continue to take these matters seriously. We will continue to engage and interact with the Committee as we take these matters forward.
Sir Alan Meale (in the Chair)
We have had a full and frank debate. I am informed that it can continue for another five minutes if the Committee Chairman wishes to raise any other matters.
Civil Service (Voluntary Severance)
Lord Maude of Horsham Excerpts(12 years, 8 months ago)
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Mr Michael McCann (East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow) (Lab)
6. What estimate he has made of the number of civil servants who will leave the civil service on voluntary severance terms in 2010-11.
[Official Report, 7 September 2011, Vol. 532, c. 343.]
Letter of correction from Mr Francis Maude:
An error has been identified in the oral answer given to the hon. Member for East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow (Mr McCann) during Cabinet Office Question Time on 7 September 2011.
The full answer given was as follows:
The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General (Mr Francis Maude)
We aim to minimise compulsory redundancy. We reformed the civil service compensation scheme so that, for the first time, voluntary redundancy was more attractive than compulsory redundancy, which was impossibly expensive under the scheme left in place by the previous Government. We estimate that in early 2010-11 11,200 civil servants left the civil service on the new terms.
The correct answer should have been:
The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General (Mr Francis Maude)
We aim to minimise compulsory redundancy. We reformed the civil service compensation scheme so that, for the first time, voluntary redundancy was more attractive than compulsory redundancy, which was impossibly expensive under the scheme left in place by the previous Government. We estimate that 11,200 civil servants left the civil service early, in 2010-11.