Building Safety Defects: Costs

Lord Greenhalgh Excerpts

Monday 18th October 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper and refer the House to my interests as set out in the register.

[The Minister of State, Home Office and Department for Levelling Up, Housing & Communities (Lord Greenhalgh) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government are investing £5.1 billion to remediate unsafe cladding in residential buildings over 18 metres. The Building Safety Bill will require building owners to consider other cost-recovery routes for remediation before passing them on to leaseholders. A new developer tax and levy will make sure that industry contributes. Finally, for the small number of 11-to-18 metre buildings with cladding remediation costs, our support offer will ensure that leaseholders are protected.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, that is a very disappointing and, frankly, repetitive response. There has been a clear failure on the part of the Government to protect the innocent victims of this scandal in building safety. The leaseholders need to be supported by their Government and they need to hear clearly from the Government that they are no longer expected to pay for other people’s mistakes. Why cannot the Government just say that and make it happen?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, perhaps there is repetition in both the Question and indeed the Answer. The Building Safety Bill, which is going through very close scrutiny in the other place, provides a legal requirement for building owners to explore alternative ways to meet the costs of remediation works before passing them on to leaseholders, along with evidence that this has been done. Of course, we will look at other ways of strengthening the redress mechanisms to ensure that, wherever possible, this does not fall on leaseholders.

[The Lord Bishop of Durham]

My Lords, have the Government looked closely at the “polluter pays” principle as a way of recouping funds for remediation of building safety defects from those who were initially responsible? Will this, or something equivalent, form part of the Building Safety Bill?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, we are looking very closely at the “polluter pays” principle and the amendments that have been supplied to us by Steve Day. I have asked my officials to meet on a number of occasions; in fact, I am meeting them this Wednesday. There are, however, some difficulties and hurdles that need to be overcome to make this potentially work. I do not exaggerate; they will be quite challenging to overcome.

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

My Lords, since we discussed this on 16 September, we have a new Secretary of State with instructions from the Prime Minister, so we read, to sort out the cladding crisis. While welcoming the new tax on high-rise development and the substantial support that the Government have already offered, this is not enough to prevent innocent leaseholders facing substantial hardship. Further to the suggestion of the right reverend Prelate, should there not be a substantial levy on the developers who built and sold these unsuitable flats?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, we have a new Secretary of State who is putting his fresh eyes on this. We recognise that the developers that put up these shoddy buildings need to pay. Indeed, we may need to look at other people—the cladding manufacturers may also need to contribute to this—because we want to do whatever it takes to ensure that leaseholders are protected as far as is practicable.

[Baroness Watkins of Tavistock (CB)]

My Lords, I declare my interests as outlined in the register. It is intended that there will be a new regime for shared ownership in terms of liability for new leaseholders. However, currently, many leaseholders who own only a quarter of their properties are being expected to recompense the costs for 100%. Can the Minister tell me what the Government intend to do about this? If he cannot, will he write to me, because there is considerable mental anguish among many shared owners—the majority of whom are essential public sector workers such as paramedics, teachers and nurses?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, I recognise the plight that leaseholders in social housing face, particularly those who are shared owners and have only a proportion of the equity. We made it part of our approach to funding for unsafe cladding beyond aluminium composite material that those costs are borne by the registered social landlords if they are not able to recoup the money from developers. We will continue to urge that these people are protected wherever possible.

[Lord Hendy (Lab)]

My Lords, given the multiple failures of organs of the state revealed in the Grenfell Tower inquiry—through failure to implement the findings of coroners’ inquests, failures of the building regulations, failures of building control and so on—surely the obvious answer is for the Government to establish a fund to pay out to all those who deserve compensation and to use those resources to sue those who are responsible.

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, I do not think it is as simple as that this was at the hands of failed regulation, although we recognise that there was regulatory system failure. That is why we are bringing forward the Building Safety Bill. We have put a substantial amount of money towards remediation costs, and we will do what we can to pursue those that have caused this crisis in the first place.

[Baroness Pinnock (LD)]

My Lords, a leaseholder in Leeds has received a remediation bill of £101,267—to be paid in the next 12 months. She has no access to the means to pay. What should Emily and thousands of other leaseholders do next, or are the Government accepting that thousands of bankruptcies will ensue?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, I am happy to look at that specific case, because that sounds like an eye-watering sum of money. In the first instance, is full-scale remediation the answer? Has the freeholder looked at mitigation measures that may also achieve an acceptable way of improving things and lowering the fire safety risk? However, that does seem an extremely large sum of money, and I am happy to look into that case.

[Lord Blencathra (Con)]

My Lords, I do not want leaseholders, nor the taxpayer, to pay a single penny towards these remediation works, but I want the housebuilders to pay for every pound that it takes. I am afraid to say that the proposed levy is simply derisory. Will my noble friend campaign in government for a proper, full-scale windfall tax imposed on the housebuilders? In 2019, four companies—Barratt, Wimpey, Persimmon and Berkeley—posted profits of £3.8 billion. I repeat: one year, four companies, £3.8 billion. They should be made to pay from their profits for their shoddy work. Will my noble friend agree with that and just say, “Yes, Lord Blencathra”?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My noble friend knows that government is not quite so simple. In all seriousness, we have stated publicly that the new tax on developers will raise at least £2 billion over 10 years. We know that the amount of money required is far in excess of that, but there is no upper limit, and we still have not yet announced the detail. We take my noble friend’s point on board with regard to the windfall tax.

[Baroness Eaton (Con)]

My Lords, as others have already said, it is important that the polluter pays, rather than leaseholders, who are victims. Can my noble friend the Minister provide further details regarding this residential property development tax which has been alluded to in previous questions?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My noble friend is right that we need more detail. Details of the residential property developer tax will be announced at the Autumn Budget on 27 October, so we will have to wait till then. However, I want to make it clear that the figure of £2 billion over 10 years is an absolute minimum and I hope that we will go far further than that when the rates are finalised.

[Baroness Thornhill (LD)]

As has already been stated, social housing providers are having to pick up the bill for all of their properties. These sums are having a significant impact on their budgets and are detrimental to their ability to provide more, and better-quality, social housing going forward. Are the Government monitoring the impact of this on providers’ budgets, in particular the opportunity cost that is lost to the sector, and looking at how this will affect their ability to do the jobs that they want to do to improve their social, affordable and supported housing properties in the future?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, we are working very closely with the sector. I point out that there was a £400,000 fund specifically for providers in the social sector to remove aluminium composite material, the most serious form of unsafe cladding. In addition, where social landlords are thinking of passing costs on to leaseholders, there is an opportunity for them to apply to the building safety fund, which many of them have indeed done.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

Could the Minister answer my question in very simple language, because I just do not understand this? The leaseholders did not design the building, do not own it and did not apply the faulty cladding to it. So why are they paying anything at all towards replacing it?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

It is quite clear that the building owner and freeholder have responsibility for keeping the building safe. Whether the costs are passed on to leaseholders is a matter for the individual lease, but we are doing all we can to step in to help recoup the money that should rightly be paid by the developers and have also put forward taxpayer funding to the tune of over £5 billion at this point.

[The Lord Speaker (Lord McFall of Alcluith)]

My Lords, all supplementary questions have been asked and we now move to the next Question.

Minister for Intergovernmental Relations

Lord Greenhalgh Excerpts

Monday 18th October 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Wilcox of Newport]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the Dunlop Review of Devolution, published on 24 March, influenced the creation of the post of Minister for Intergovernmental Relations.

[The Minister of State, Home Office and Department for Levelling Up, Housing & Communities. (Lord Greenhalgh) (Con)]

The Minister for Intergovernmental Relations is committed to strengthening the union, as he was when he was previously responsible for constitutional integrity, as Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster and Minister for the Cabinet Office. My noble friend Lord Dunlop’s review considered ways to configure and improve the structures of government in order to strengthen the union, and it aligns with government thinking in this regard.

[Baroness Wilcox of Newport (Lab)]

In its report, the Common Frameworks Scrutiny Committee noted that

“relations between the four administrations of the UK are in a particularly poor state, and that UK intergovernmental relations need to be reset.”

Does the Minister accept that it undermines the devolution settlements when this Government bring forward initiatives, such as levelling up and community renewal funds, that have been drawn up without any consultation with the Welsh Government and are administered by UK government departments that have not operated in Wales for over 20 years? Will the new ministerial post address these problematic issues?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, the Government have made clear that they intend to work with the devolved Administrations to ensure that funding is used to best effect and supports citizens across the UK. Discussions relating to specific schemes using the financial assistance power could take place in the relevant departmental interministerial group at the outset of the review of intergovernmental relations. There has been a very clear statement that the devolved Administrations will be part of the governance structures of relevant funds.

[Lord Morris of Aberavon (Lab)]

My Lords, given the comparatively minor disparities in the way that the pandemic has been tackled by Westminster and the devolved Governments, are the Government satisfied that they can prove to the eventual public inquiry that they have done everything to try to establish common policies? Will the Government now announce regular dates for joint ministerial meetings with the devolved Governments? When will the Prime Minister spare the time to chair one of those meetings?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, I do not recognise the lack of engagement with the devolved Administrations. In fact, as we speak, the Prime Minister is in a meeting with First Ministers, and there have been many hundreds of meetings, across Whitehall, with the devolved Administrations—well over 300. The Secretary of State who has responsibility for constitutional matters meets them monthly. That is a framework that is currently working to ensure that the devolved Administrations are listened to very carefully.

[Lord German (LD)]

My Lords, a few weeks ago, the Secretary of State for Wales said that he had to “bite his tongue” when asked about matters relating to the devolved Government in Wales. Subsequently, he went on to criticise some of the health policies of the Welsh Government. On the need for mutual respect between the various Governments of this country, could the Minister tell the House the correct approach that Ministers should take to these devolved matters? Does it always involve biting tongues?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, clearly, there needs to be constructive engagement on devolved matters, and I believe that there is. In fact, the commitment to Wales is really quite considerable: there has been £352 billion of support for the whole of the UK, and, in Wales, this included protecting more than 460,000 jobs through the furlough scheme. We continue to recognise the need to work closely with all our devolved Administrations.

[Baroness Eaton (Con)]

It is important that the Government have appointed a Minister for Intergovernmental Relations. Could my noble friend say how the Minister is engaging with the devolved Administrations and supporting effective intergovernmental working across the United Kingdom?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, my noble friend is right that there needs to be effective intergovernmental working. Indeed, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State is committed to continuing to work effectively with the devolved Administrations and supporting effective engagement across government. My right honourable friend will be writing to the devolved Administrations regarding the arrangements following on from the intergovernmental relations review and the formalised structures for engagement, as part of that.

[Baroness Stuart of Edgbaston (CB)]

My Lords, given our rather asymmetric constitutional arrangements, it is easy to forget that intergovernmental relations matter to Wales, Scotland, England and Northern Ireland. Therefore, does the Minister agree that, if we want fair handling of the four components, it is important that we gather and analyse data in all of them in a way which allows us to make proper and in-time comparisons?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, I accept that it is important that all government decisions should be based on sound analysis and data, which I am sure will be the case as we look to work closely with the devolved Administrations to spend money that was previously as a result of our membership of the European Union.

[Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale (Lab)]

My Lords, I hope that we can all agree that good intergovernmental relations are based on strong mutual respect, so will the Government please stop referring to the devolved Governments as devolved Administrations and call them Governments, which they clearly are?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, there is no sign of disrespect when we call a Government a devolved Administration, but I am happy to call them devolved Governments in future if that is seen as more appropriate.

[Baroness Janke (LD)]

My Lords, findings of the IPPR show that there are huge differences in regional economic performance and prosperity in the UK and that this is down largely to overcentralised and inflexible governance. Can the Minister assure us that the Government will devolve powers to local decision-makers as a key part of the levelling-up agenda and not allow this to be operated by the dead hand of Whitehall from London?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, the Government remain committed to devolution. On the levelling-up agenda and fund, it is quite clear that, where that money is spent in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, we will have effective engagement and work closely with stakeholders to build on existing spending, using the economies of scale that we can achieve through expenditure at the United Kingdom level.

[Lord Flight (Con)]

Can the Minister please summarise what, if any, are the important differences between the Dunlop review’s recommendation for a new Cabinet post, a Secretary of State for intergovernmental and constitutional affairs, and the ministerial post created by the Government of Minister for Intergovernmental Relations?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for wanting that clarity. Day-to-day responsibility for constitutional integrity falls to the Minister for Intergovernmental Relations. Individual Secretaries of State also have a critical role in representing the distinctive voices and interests of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland in Whitehall and the Cabinet; in representing the UK Government in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland; and in co-ordinating the UK Government’s work with the devolved Governments to deliver for all citizens of the United Kingdom.

[Lord Hain (Lab)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that there will be a strong UK union only if each of our constituent nations, regions and Governments has a relationship of equals, which, regrettably, has not been the case under this Government? Their high-handed arrogance over the internal market Act and the shared prosperity fund are just two examples. Will the Minister guarantee parity of esteem in the Joint Ministerial Committee, through shared chairing and agenda setting, an impartial secretariat and improved dispute avoidance and resolution?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, I do not recognise that characterisation; there is huge esteem for the devolved Governments. We need to recognise that our United Kingdom is the most successful political and economic union that the world has ever seen, and we continue to build on its strengths.

[Lord Roberts of Llandudno (LD)]

My Lords, last Thursday we welcomed Her Majesty the Queen to the Senedd, and we all rejoiced in the work that the devolved Senedd was doing—but then we have the appointment of this intergovernmental Minister. I thought that there might be some hope there, but he is already Minister for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities. Is this not just something that is a fantasy for this Government?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

The noble Lord is right that my right honourable friend the Secretary of State has a number of responsibilities, but he takes his ministerial responsibilities with regard to the union extremely seriously, with monthly meetings with all the devolved Governments and First Ministers. I also remind the noble Lord that the Prime Minister is the Minister for the Union and, at this moment, he is speaking to First Ministers. So that engagement is real, and we will continue to work very closely with all the devolved Governments.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, intergovernmental relations are a two-way street. Is the Minister aware that, in Scotland, the devolved Government are spending money on areas that are not devolved, including millions of pounds on overseas offices? Why are the UK Government afraid to bring them into line?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord for raising this issue. It is quite clear that you need to have the competence to spend taxpayers’ money. The best way in which to rein them in is, of course, to win at the ballot box.

[The Lord Speaker (Lord McFall of Alcluith)]

My Lords, all supplementary questions have been asked, and we now move to the next Question.

Inequalities of Region and Place

Lord Greenhalgh Excerpts

Thursday 14th October 2021 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Home Office and Department for Levelling Up, Housing & Communities (Lord Greenhalgh) (Con)]

My Lords, I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, on securing this debate. I am grateful to all noble Lords who contributed this afternoon. The debate has been passionate and well-informed, and I am glad that noble Lords share my commitment to reducing regional inequalities and levelling up the country.

I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Horam for mentioning my northern roots. I am of course delighted to come to a debate and receive a gift—I think that is a first for me, and probably the last time it will happen—to help me to learn about the glories of Yorkshire. However, my family comes from Lancashire. Interestingly enough, one of my childhood recollections is being taken by Uncle Harry to Blackpool to see the fairground attractions and then have fish and chips with him at the Lobster Pot, which I gather no longer exists. Blackpool is a great town; despite the points made about the deprivation there, we have to build on the positives and have the local leadership in Blackpool build on the many strengths of the place.

The UK is one of the best places in the world to live, study and work. We have thriving cities and towns, culture and sport, industry, research and community spirit. However, we know that too many parts of the United Kingdom are performing poorly and that gaps in economic performance have been widening over recent decades. The United Kingdom is now one of the most geographically unequal countries in the developed world.

At present, London and the south-east drive the UK’s economic performance. London alone is 32% more productive than the UK as a whole, while cities in the north and Midlands are below the UK average. These regional disparities in economic performance are linked with a whole host of other disadvantages which have a real impact on people’s day-to-day lives. They can lead to fewer opportunities, weakened civil society and poor social and health outcomes. These issues can be self-reinforcing and have led to the narrative that some places are left behind. That is why, despite the challenges of Covid-19, ensuring that the whole of the UK benefits from the same opportunities remains central to the Government’s agenda.

There is no single driver for the geographical disparities across the United Kingdom and no single methodology to measure the needs of local areas and communities. Of course, I take on board the need to look at how a policy is measured. I am sure that will feature in the policy analysis, so I thank the right reverend Prelate for raising the social commission’s work on poverty. Accordingly, levelling up is a multifaceted policy mission: a combination of improving health, education and skills, increasing jobs and growth, building stronger and safer communities, and improving infrastructure and connectivity. Levelling up will therefore require cross-government interventions, delivered over the long term, empowering local leaders and communities to seize their own destiny, boosting living standards, particularly where they are lower, spreading opportunity and improving public services, particularly where they are weak, and restoring local pride across the UK.

Therefore, as the Prime Minister set out in his speech on levelling up on 15 July, the Government will publish a levelling-up White Paper this year. That is where we will set out the plan that the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, has called for, detailing how we plan to level up the country through bold new policy interventions to improve livelihoods and opportunity in all parts of the UK. At the upcoming spending review, the Government will set out how we will build back better, delivering the priorities of the British people, unleashing the potential of places by improving outcomes across the UK where they lag, working closely with local leaders and strengthening the private sector where it is weak.

While the White Paper will outline our plan to drive forward this agenda, the Government have already rolled out major policy interventions to begin levelling up the UK, investing billions to support innovation, high-street improvement, public transport and digital connectivity. As set out at the spending review in 2020, the Government’s capital spending plans this year will total £100 billion—a £30 billion cash increase compared to 2019-20. This is part of the Government’s plan to deliver over £600 billion in gross public sector investment over the next five years, the highest sustained levels of public sector net investment as a proportion of GDP since the late 1970s.

While levelling up is a broad agenda that encompasses cross-government policy levers to address regional inequalities across a range of outcomes, my department has recently launched a range of policy programmes to support our local economies to level up. We have already made huge strides towards rebalancing the economy and empowering local government. This has been supported by the Government’s programme of devolution, one of the largest in recent decades, including nine mayoral devolution deals and one non-mayoral devolution deal in Cornwall, meaning that 41% of residents in England are now served by directly elected city region mayors, including 63% in the north.

Mayoral devolution has strengthened local leadership and institutions, devolving key powers over transport, planning, skills and funding away from Whitehall, so that they are exercised at the right level to make a difference for local communities. Mayors are already playing an incredibly powerful role in driving economic growth, improving public services and giving local areas a real voice in local government. This Government are committed to going further, by offering to negotiate devolution deals with county areas to give more parts of England the benefits of strong local leadership and the powers which have been given to mayoral combined authorities over recent years. We are also committed to deepening existing devolution settlements where appropriate, to further empower local leaders to level up their areas.

Meanwhile, our local growth funds enable places to fund their economic priorities and level up. The £4.8 billion levelling-up fund will invest in infrastructure that improves everyday life across the United Kingdom, including regenerating town centres and high streets, upgrading local transport and investing in cultural and heritage assets. The fund will operate UK-wide, extending the benefits of funding for priority local infrastructure across all regions and nations.

The Towns Fund contributes to the levelling-up agenda by driving the economic regeneration of towns to deliver long-term economic and productivity growth through land use, economic assets including cultural assets, skills and enterprise infrastructure, and connectivity. The UK community ownership fund will also empower communities to protect vital community assets in their area by providing funding to take ownership over them in support of the social well-being of local communities.

Meanwhile, the welcome back fund and reopening high streets safely fund support the levelling-up agenda by helping the businesses and communities that make our high streets and town centres successful. The UK community renewal fund is providing £220 million in additional funding to help places across the United Kingdom prepare for the introduction of the UK shared prosperity fund in 2022. That fund will contribute to the levelling-up agenda by creating opportunity across the UK in places most in need, such as ex-industrial areas, deprived towns, and rural and coastal communities, and for people who face labour market barriers.

Up to 10 new innovative freeports will be opened across the UK. Freeports contribute to realising the levelling-up agenda, bringing jobs, investment and prosperity to some of our most deprived communities across the four nations of the UK with targeted and effective support. Meanwhile devolution, city and growth deals totalling £320 million per annum accelerate economic growth in places across the UK.

It was a fair criticism from the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, and the noble Baroness, Lady Blake of Leeds, that we should not place small pots of money that people have to competitively bid for. It is quite an exercise to bid for funds, which is why we are seeking to consolidate funding into two large funds—the levelling-up fund for capital projects and the UK shared prosperity fund, which will grow to £1.5 billion for more revenue-based projects. It is important to consolidate funding and that is the move the Government are taking in that direction.

The noble Lord, Lord Liddle, and others, including the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Brixton, painted levelling up as simply a slogan without a plan or a long-term strategy. That was a little unfair. As I said, the White Paper is coming but my honourable friend Neil O’Brien and my right honourable friend the Secretary of State have been clear about defining the outcomes for levelling up: empowering local leaders and communities, growing the private sector, boosting living standards, spreading opportunity, improving public services and restoring local pride of place. Despite the challenges of Covid, we have moved ahead with multi-billion pound investments to transform the country’s prosperity and spread opportunity with better infrastructure, public services and access to skills to support good jobs in all parts of the UK.

The noble Baroness, Lady Valentine, gave an excellent speech on the importance of getting Whitehall to join up. That is a reasonable challenge. To be absolutely clear, at the spending review in 2020, we agreed provisional priority outcomes across all UK government departments, along with metrics for measuring progress against the outcomes I outlined for levelling up. Those provisional priority outcomes include the outcomes the Government seek to achieve as part of the levelling-up agenda. The Treasury and my new department, the Department for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities have outcomes related to levelling up. One of DLUHC’s priority outcomes is to:

“Raise productivity and empower places so that everyone across the country can benefit from levelling up.”


That has been agreed on a cross-cutting basis, with BEIS, DCMS, Defra, DfE, DfT, DIT, and DWP as non-leading contributing departments. The levelling-up White Paper will set out further detail on the outcomes and metrics for levelling up.

My noble friend Lord Young is very good at setting challenging questions. The Government are rightly committed to the devolution of power to people and places; I have talked about mayoral devolution. There was a fair challenge from my noble friend, the noble Lord, Lord Shipley—an experienced local government leader—and the noble Lord, Lord Wallace of Saltaire, about the need for reducing financial dependency on the centre. I am sure they would agree that it is important that we look at business rates, one of the core funding mechanisms for local government. There is a fundamental review of business rates because that clearly needs to change, given the shifts we have seen in the importance of offices as part of the local economy and the moves away from bricks and mortar as a determinant of the strength of a particular business. That is being carried out by the Treasury.

I am sure that local government reform of some description around council tax will happen, although it is not currently part of the Queen’s Speech. I am sure my noble friend will never cease to push for new bands of council tax and ways of looking at this, because it is some time since there was any reform of council tax.

I thank the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Durham and the noble Lord, Lord Wallace of Saltaire, for testing the Government’s commitment to the north. We will continue supporting the north to level up and build back better from Covid. We are doing this with £319.7 million from the Getting Building Fund for a wide-ranging package of projects that will deliver growth for the local economy and support green recovery. As noble Lords know, there is the new UK Infrastructure Bank headquartered in Leeds, which I am sure the noble Lord and the noble Baroness, Lady Blake, will be delighted about. The freeports are very often located in our northern cities.

The noble Viscount, Lord Stansgate, gave an outstanding maiden speech—that is absolutely the right word for it. I really enjoyed it. As a son of an academic surgeon who spent all his life thinking about research to improve outcomes for patients, I know how important science and research are to the future of this country. All those points are well made and have to form part of the fabric of any ambition to level up the country. I point out that there was an unprecedented commitment at Budget to increase public investment in R&D to £22 billion by 2024-25. I am sure there are other measures in the area of science and technology that will drive forward further progress.

The noble Lord, Lord Adonis, is absolutely right: I have been a passionate proponent of HS2, because I could see the regenerative benefits of transportation. As he pointed out to me, where trains stop is often more important than the actual lines. The ability to regenerate very deprived areas is so important. In the borough I led for six years—I spent 16 years as a Hammersmith and Fulham councillor—there are areas of extreme deprivation. Old Oak and Park Royal is one of the most deprived communities in London, and the prospect of regeneration was great if you combined the benefits of Crossrail and HS2. I am delighted that we know that project is going ahead as quickly as practicable.

However, I am disappointed that we are seeing the escalating cost; the noble Lord can point out why. When we had those conversations back in 2008-09, when as a council leader I corralled him at Clapham Junction for the first time—he was very welcoming when in his pomp as a new Secretary of State—it was a £30 billion project. It is now more than £100 billion. In this country we need to learn how we can deliver big infrastructure at reasonable cost, because it is not sustainable to see these ballooning numbers around that sort of project.

I do not know the situation on the eastern leg. My understanding is that the integrated rail plan, for which I do not have a publication date—I apologise to the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Durham—will soon outline exactly how major rail projects, including HS2 phase 2b and other transformational projects, will work to deliver the transport we need in the future. That date has not been set, so I cannot provide any more information on that.

I have been given a real-time update, and I can say that there are no plans at the moment to reform the council tax system, which, we know, is politically difficult. My noble friend was, of course, a Cabinet Minister in the Major Government. It is not easy to reform the council tax system, but I am sure that we will continue to look at this. It is important that we consider the fundamental review of business rates, at least as one way of thinking about how we can devolve money, and not just power, to make areas more financially independent.

I conclude by re-emphasising the importance that this Government place on reducing the regional inequalities in economic, social and environmental outcomes present across the United Kingdom. Both within my department and across government, we are already delivering a range of initiatives to level up the country. The upcoming levelling-up White Paper will set out further detail on our plan to reduce regional inequalities across the UK and level up the country.

[The Lord Bishop of Durham]

May I inquire about the child poverty reduction strategy, which I asked about?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

Once again, the right reverend Prelate raised the issue of child poverty and how we measure poverty. I will write to him on the specifics of the Government’s approach to addressing that matter and place a copy of that letter in the Library.

Building a Co-operative Union (Common Frameworks Scrutiny Committee Report)

Lord Greenhalgh Excerpts

Wednesday 13th October 2021 Grand Committee

[The Minister of State, Home Office and Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government (Lord Greenhalgh) (Con)]

I thank noble Lords for their expert and learned comments in this debate. I particularly thank the noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, for moving this important Motion. I also pay tribute to her and other members of the Common Frameworks Scrutiny Committee, many of whom are here today. I appreciate their continued work to scrutinise UK common frameworks and, in particular, their excellent report, Common Frameworks: Building a Co-operative Union, which was published earlier this year.

The CFSC has added huge value to the wider common frameworks programme, and I thank its members for working so co-operatively with the Government over the past year. I am pleased to hear that it has been successful in its bid to continue its valuable work into 2022. The Government look forward to continuing to work with the committee in the coming months.

In response to the questions asked by the noble Baronesses, Lady Andrews and Lady Bryan of Partick, about who is responsible for this within the Government, I can be clear that my honourable friend Neil O’Brien has taken over this role in my new department, the Department for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities —“Deluck” is the appropriate way of pronouncing the department’s acronym, DLUHC. He is now the Minister for Levelling Up, The Union and Constitution. Of course that is now under the oversight and strategic responsibility of my right honourable friend Michael Gove, who leads the department. They will continue to be supported by the very excellent officials in the common frameworks directorate, who I know work closely with the committee.

Noble Lords will be aware that since 2017, the UK Government and devolved Administrations have been working jointly to develop the UK common frameworks. Common frameworks establish a common approach to policy areas previously governed by European Union law which intersect with areas of devolved competence. Central to every framework is the agreement between the UK Government and the devolved Administrations to work together to make better policy for citizens and businesses across the United Kingdom.

In the review of union capability published earlier this year, my noble friend Lord Dunlop set out that common frameworks prove that the United Kingdom Government and devolved Administrations

“can come together as partners in a common endeavour”.

It is that spirit of common endeavour that should ensure that frameworks maintain consistent rules and regulations for all across the United Kingdom. Furthermore, common frameworks should support citizens to make the most of the opportunities afforded to the UK following our exit from the European Union, and allow trading partners peace of mind.

Common frameworks have previously been described by the Common Frameworks Scrutiny Committee as representing

“an example of best practice for positive cooperation across the UK and have an important role to play in an evolving devolution settlement and in strengthening the Union”.

The UK Government consider strengthening the union as a key priority, as noble Lords will know. One of the central objectives of the newly formed Department for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities is to level up our towns and cities across the United Kingdom. The common frameworks programme has remained focused on upholding this by continuing to strengthen relations between the UK Government and devolved Administrations. The noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, rightly said in her article in PoliticsHome that

“the collaborative process of common frameworks can be held up as a model to build a stronger and cooperative union”.

Representing joint and collaborative ways of working, common frameworks have been developed carefully, drawing on industry stakeholder expertise from across the United Kingdom to establish effective ways of working. Under guidance from constitutional teams in the UK Government and devolved Administrations, policy departments have ensured that they engage with those directly affected by a framework during its development.

As the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, said, my honourable friend Chloe Smith set out previously that UK common frameworks are “ways of working” documents, as opposed to policy documents, so the nature of any stakeholder engagement may differ slightly from one framework to another. Common frameworks are also designed to be adaptable enough to endure as society, the regulatory environment, and the economy change. To enable such changes, the relevant Administrations will continue to review and monitor frameworks on a regular basis and engage with the relevant industry and parliamentary stakeholders as appropriate.

Of the 152 broad areas where powers returning from the EU have a devolved intersect, for 32 of these areas the UK Government and the devolved Administrations have agreed that it is necessary to develop a common framework. The remaining 120 policy areas where no framework has been deemed to be required will continue to be monitored, and new frameworks developed if the need arises. Decisions on whether frameworks are required have been made, and will continue to be made, in agreement with the devolved Administrations in line with the Joint Ministerial Committee (EU Negotiations) principles that have guided the frameworks programme.

The Government welcome the CFSC report Common Frameworks: Building a Cooperative Union, published in March and the important recommendations it sets out. My honourable friend Chloe Smith, in her former role as the Minister for the Constitution and Devolution, set out the Government’s response comprehensively to the Common Frameworks Scrutiny Committee in May, and I am very pleased to have had the opportunity to hear the committee’s thoughts in person today.

The CFSC has set out a number of recommendations regarding transparency with which the Government have either agreed or agreed in principle. The Government agree that transparency is a key priority for the programme, and I am happy to state that since the CFSC report was issued, four further provisional frameworks have been published to allow for parliamentary scrutiny and one full framework has been published following final ministerial clearances. The Government are keen to rapidly progress towards publishing the remaining frameworks, and at a quadrilateral meeting just prior to the UK ministerial reshuffle, the then Minister and her opposite numbers in the devolved Administrations agreed that on resolution of the remaining cross-cutting issues, Governments should progress towards sharing the remaining frameworks at pace with legislatures.

CFSC colleagues have mentioned the various cross-cutting issues, including the UK Internal Market Act and the Northern Ireland protocol, and the importance for all frameworks to clearly set out how they will interact, or be excluded from common frameworks. I agree that these are important issues, and I note that considerable work has been undertaken at pace to resolve such issues.

In recent months, work across the programme has continued at pace and with some notable successes, which demonstrate the continued value of working collaboratively across all four Administrations. As noble Lords will know, some of the greatest challenges in developing common frameworks have turned out to be the cross-cutting issues that affect many or all of the frameworks. These are: the ongoing review of intergovernmental relations; the Ireland-Northern Ireland protocol; the interaction between frameworks and trade deals and other international obligations; and the way in which common frameworks intersect with the UK Internal Market Act. In particular, fully understanding the implications of the latter two issues and how they should be addressed in common frameworks has been the subject of much work throughout 2021. Indeed, the CFSC report makes distinct recommendations on the importance of ensuring that the UK Government and the devolved Administrations agree a means of using powers within the UKIM Act to create exclusions in areas covered by a common framework.

I thank all noble Lords for their contributions today and will try as quickly as possible to respond to the many points raised. The noble Baronesses, Lady Andrews, Lady Randerson, Lady Crawley, and, indeed, Lady Wilcox of Newport, all raised the issue of transparency. Transparency across the common frameworks programme is a priority for the Government. It is for this reason that throughout the development of each framework, they undergo industry-specific stakeholder engagement and then later parliamentary scrutiny under the UK Government and devolved legislatures.

In response to the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, I clarify that common frameworks are not developing policy itself; rather, they establish intergovernmental ways of working, which noble Lords will recognise may therefore require differing levels of engagement. Thus far, the Government have conducted early framework development stakeholder engagement across all frameworks, bar two lesser-developed frameworks, and expect to further engage with many of those stakeholders as frameworks are published, and as and when any significant developments take place.

In response to the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, and my noble friend Lady Redfern, we agree that frameworks should be published upon receipt of appropriate ministerial clearances. Noble Lords will be aware that, as a four-nation programme, frameworks can be published only on joint agreement by all parties. As such, it would not be in keeping with the joint nature of the frameworks programme for the UK Government to publish anything unilaterally. To update noble Lords, prior to the recent ministerial reshuffle, Ministers from across the UK Government and devolved Administrations met and agreed to progress the frameworks programme at pace. Once the cross-cutting issues have been fully resolved, we will jointly publish the remaining frameworks.

The Government recognise the important role Parliament has in scrutinising UK common frameworks and welcome the CFSC recommendation that further scrutiny may be necessary once frameworks are implemented and future development takes place. It is important for me to clarify that, as frameworks cover a wide range of topic areas, each is being developed by a different UK government policy department jointly with its devolved Administration counterparts. As such, once a framework is fully implemented, any decision around future framework development, and therefore continued scrutiny, will be taken at departmental level.

In response to the noble Baroness, Lady Wilcox of Newport, the Government intend to share the remaining frameworks with the CFSC to enable parliamentary scrutiny by the end of 2021. I expect that those frameworks with lesser intersects and with various cross-cutting issues will be sent first. This will be possible once they have been agreed or amended, but I recognise the frustrations around the delayed publication of provisional frameworks. The rest will follow shortly afterwards.

The noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope of Craighead, raised two issues. Yes, there is an important role for the centre in co-ordinating things, but policy departments must also have a role, as they are the policy experts. In line with the recommendation that the Government should work closely with the devolved Administrations to develop a process for using these powers, government officials and their counterparts in the devolved Administrations are working closely to establish a process for making and evidencing such agreements. Ministers have also met to discuss progress and to chart a path forward. I also take this opportunity to extend my thanks to those in the devolved Administrations who have made great contributions to this work.

A number of noble Lords raised the Northern Ireland protocol; namely, the noble Baronesses, Lady Ritchie of Downpatrick and Lady Andrews. I can provide an update on progress in certain areas, such as divergence. Common frameworks provide the right forum for discussions about how to best accommodate policy divergence in a way that works for the whole United Kingdom. Where proposals for divergence arise, the framework’s governance structures will ensure that views from all parties to the framework are taken into consideration.

In response to the noble Baroness, Lady Crawley, on reporting, the Government welcome the CFSC report’s recommendation to include processes for reporting on divergence. Once implemented, the policy teams will review their common framework regularly to ensure that it is updated according to changes made to any of the cross-cutting issues that intersect with it, including the protocol. Departments will take over full ownership of the framework, which will involve monitoring and reviewing it periodically, and engaging with legislatures and stakeholders, including giving updates on any divergence that has occurred. The noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, asked a question on divergence, and I hope I have covered most of her points, as best as I can.

I reassure my noble friend Lord Dunlop that the recommendations in his review align with the Prime Minister’s ambitions to strengthen the working of the union. We do not see these recommendations as distinct workstreams and many coincided with our existing thinking. We have made progress in implementing the vast majority of the recommendations, in some areas delivering above and beyond the scope. We incorporated many of the recommendations into the intergovernmental relations review. As the Prime Minister said in his letter to the First Ministers and Deputy First Minister of Northern Ireland on 7 September, due to the

“hard work of ministers and officials”

in all four Administrations,

“we are now in a position to conclude”

the IGR and

“provide a new structure for … engagement”.

I will have to write to my noble friend on the specifics of transparency reporting.

In response to my noble friend Lady Redfern, the Government very much welcome the CFSC report’s recommendation to publish justifications for policy areas where it has been decided that no further action is required. In the coming weeks, we expect to publish the fourth iteration of the annual frameworks analysis, which will include an explanation for each policy area where a common framework is not currently required.

In response to the noble Baroness, Lady Bryan of Partick, the EU exit resulted in returning powers in 152 areas where devolution also intersects. No framework is required in many areas as we believe that there is a low risk of divergence. Obviously, we will continue to review that position.

On the specific point raised by my noble friend Lady McIntosh on the progress on the Defra framework, Defra has provisionally agreed all 14 of its frameworks and one has been published for transparency. Defra frameworks have the biggest number of cross-cutting issues which are being worked through. As she will appreciate, that is quite a job of work to do.

There is broad agreement in this House that UK common frameworks are a helpful way to ensure the continued joint working across the United Kingdom by this Government and the devolved Administrations for the benefit of our businesses and, above all, our citizens. I look forward to continuing to work with this House and the noble Lords of the CFSC as we continue to deliver the common frameworks programme.

England: Historic Counties

Lord Greenhalgh Excerpts

Thursday 16th September 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lexden]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have to ensure the preservation of England’s historic counties.

[The Minister of State, Home Office and Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government (Lord Greenhalgh) (Con)]

The history and traditions of this country are very important and the tapestry of our historic counties is one of the bonds that draws the nation together. We support various initiatives to celebrate our historic counties and encourage local leaders across Great Britain to do the same.

[Lord Lexden (Con)]

My Lords, do our historic counties not enable us to recall many elements of our long and glorious past? Should they not appear on all maps, as a matter of course? Should they not be used on all ceremonial occasions rather than, as is sometimes the case, the more recent artificial creations?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My noble friend is right to raise this issue. The Government have taken steps to ensure it is easier to recognise historic counties. In 2014, planning rules were changed to allow councils to put up boundary signs marking traditional English counties. In 2015, the Government commissioned Ordnance Survey to produce historic and ceremonial county-boundary datasets, and we are open to other ideas.

[Lord Blunkett (Lab)]

My Lords, the national insurance hike last week skewed funding under the Barnett formula still further. If the historic county of Yorkshire, which has a population slightly larger than Scotland’s, had its own Barnett formula, it would receive an extra £12 billion. Would that not be levelling up?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, I thought the supplementary questions might go in any direction, but I recognise that the noble Lord is a proud Yorkshireman and that he will do all he can to ensure the county gets the resources it needs.

[Baroness Rawlings (Con)]

My Lords, in preserving Britain’s historic counties, will the Government reassure your Lordships that they will not make more changes to the way they are governed?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, I recognise that we need stability and point out that many areas have not seen significant change. The last reorganisation in London, where I was a local councillor, was in 1965 which, I have to say, was before I was born. I recognise that we need stability in our administrative structures.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

My Lords, all surveys suggest that Yorkshire has one of the strongest senses of common identity of any region or county in England, historically as a single county but occasionally divided into three. The Government, nevertheless, seem determined to divide it into four, each with its own elected mayor, and have just forced a reorganisation on to North Yorkshire. Why have the Government insisted on disregarding very strong representations from almost all councils in Yorkshire, in the way they have pushed their version of “devolved” government?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, I point out that Greenhalgh is a Lancastrian name, so I dispute Lancashire being second to Yorkshire, but that is a matter for debate. Devolution has required a degree of local consultation and decision-making. We are seeking to reflect functional and economic areas in our devolution programme, so it is important that it continues to be locally led.

[Lord Hannan of Kingsclere (Con)]

My Lords, the maiming of our historic counties in the Heath years, with the destruction of some of the oldest political units in the world, was one of many lamentable acts emanating from that ministry. It may be a bit much to restore completely the administrative status quo ante, but will the Minister at least undertake to align ceremonial counties with the 92 historic counties that make up England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My noble friend has called for that realignment, but we do not have any plans, so I cannot reassure him. But things in government change and he is making his case strongly.

[Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)]

I am happy to emphasise the strong feeling about Yorkshire in this Chamber. As we have heard, Britain’s historic counties are central to local identities and Yorkshire is the perfect example of that. Unfortunately, the Government have resisted the locally led One Yorkshire devolution deal, supported by 20 out of 22 local authorities, which would celebrate our historic county by bringing power, resources and jobs to the region, allowing it to develop its full potential. Do the Government have any plans to reassess their policy on this and support the ambition of the Yorkshire leaders board and the One Yorkshire committee, which has cross-party support from Members of these Benches?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, we continue to look at devolution matters. As the noble Baroness knows, we considered One Yorkshire, but we are some way down the line in creating mayors in the different regions. We recognise the real, proud tradition in Yorkshire, which we should reflect in our national way of life.

[Lord Randall of Uxbridge (Con)]

My Lords, I should declare that I am a vice-chairman of the Historic Counties All-Party Group and a proud son of Middlesex. Would my noble friend—and fellow Middle Saxon, I believe—agree that just changing the administrative boundaries should not in any way harm the importance of those historic counties? Perhaps he will agree to a meeting with the all-party group and our indomitable special adviser, Mr Russell Grant, so that we can discuss these matters.

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My noble friend makes that very easy: I even have Russell Grant’s book on historic counties here. He has had a great impact on our department and I am very pleased to meet the all-party group and Mr Middlesex. Yes, I am a proud wearer of a Middlesex tie, admittedly from when I was younger, fitter and svelter. It is very important to consider these issues.

[Lord Caine (Con)]

My Lords, as one of the Members of this House who was born, bred and still resides in the West Riding of Yorkshire, I assure my noble friend that the Government and the new Secretary of State would be immensely popular across the whole of Yorkshire if they were finally to overturn the vandalism of the early 1970s and restore the territorial integrity and names of the ancient ridings of God’s own county.

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, there is a very strong Yorkshire theme today. The Government proudly flew the Yorkshire flag outside our headquarters to mark Yorkshire Day. That beautiful flag was part of the display in Parliament Square that flew for a week to mark Historic County Flags Day on 23 July. We recognise that people should take great pride in their local identities and we continue to do so, irrespective of the local administrative areas.

[Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)]

My Lords, would my noble friend agree that our historic counties have a critical role to play in the levelling-up agenda, with their proximity to the people and as an enabler of local identity? Has he ever had the opportunity to visit Worcestershire county cricket ground—surely one of the loveliest spots in the world to spend a sunny summer’s afternoon?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, my travel schedule is changing with every question. I have not been to Worcestershire; I am very happy to take in a visit to see the delights of that county ground, particularly over a delightful English summer. Of course, the Government recognise that historic counties are a very important part of our identity and need to be promoted wherever possible.

[Lord Flight (Con)]

I support my noble friend Lord Lexden’s request. County boundaries have been changed in the past, particularly by the Heath Government, but mercifully were restored subsequently. However, there can be some case to amend boundaries largely to accommodate urban population developments. I suggest that county boundaries might be reviewed every 25 years to check whether the growth in urban areas within them needs to be addressed.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

Not a good idea at all.

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

It sounds like someone is pre-empting my response. We need to recognise that historic counties are there and part of our fabric and history. We also need to realise functional economic areas, which do change with time. Obviously, we will reflect our administrative boundaries as the demography of the country changes.

Leasehold: Building and Fire Safety

Lord Greenhalgh Excerpts

Thursday 16th September 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper. In doing so, I refer the House to my interests as set out in the register and say that I am from the wonderful borough of Southwark.

[The Minister of State, Home Office and Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government (Lord Greenhalgh) (Con)]

I declare my interest in the London Borough of Hammersmith and Fulham. The Government have invested more than £5 billion to remediate unsafe cladding in buildings over 18 metres. For the small number of 11 to 18-metre buildings with cladding remediation costs, our finance scheme will ensure that leaseholders pay no more than £50 per month towards this. A new levy and tax will ensure that industry contributes, and under the Building Safety Bill building owners must explore all reasonable ways to meet remediation costs before passing these on.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, the action taken by the Government to date is just not good enough. Leaseholders feel abandoned by the Government. All the talk of levelling up and supporting communities means nothing. It is deeds not words that the victims need today. What will the noble Lord do today after this exchange to persuade his new Secretary of State that further action is needed? Will he come down with me to Parliament Square at 1 pm today to meet some of the victims and listen to their heartbreaking stories?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, I am very happy to join the noble Lord in visiting the people who will be demonstrating today at 1 pm. This is continually a moving feast. I am happy to announce that we are increasing the amount of money we are putting in the waking watch relief fund, which has been a crippling cost for many leaseholders, by a further £5 million to the initial £30 million. That has helped around 20,000 leasehold dwellings and 264 buildings to date. We continue to ensure that we find ways to make sure that the original developer pays wherever possible.

[The Lord Bishop of St Albans]

My Lords, many people do not seem to realise that this is having a devastating effect on people of every social class. I was 10 minutes late coming in because I was hearing about a lawyer living in St Albans, where I live, who now faces bankruptcy and may no longer be able to practise if she is made bankrupt. If you buy a defective car it gets recalled and has to be sorted out. What attention and consideration are Her Majesty’s Government giving to the polluter pays principle, which we need to build into this issue if we are to address this devastating problem unfolding before our very eyes?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, we recognise that if you buy a defective dwelling you expect the person responsible for the building of it to do something about it. That is precisely why the Government, as part of the Building Safety Bill, are proposing to increase the Defective Premises Act redress period from six years to 15 years retrospectively, which will bring in a great number of buildings to be able to seek redress from developers. That is why we continue to work on measures that will ensure that the polluter does pay wherever possible, and we are looking very closely at proposals from Steve Day and his team around the polluter pays amendments.

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

My Lords, the Government have provided substantial support to deal with the cladding crisis, which I welcome, but that support, together with the new tax on high-rise development the Minister mentioned, will be inadequate to avoid hardship and inequity for many innocent leaseholders. Further to what the right reverend Prelate just said, would it not be fair to bridge the gap by a levy on developers that built and sold these substandard homes?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My noble friend is right, which is why we are looking at a new levy and a developer tax to ensure that the industry contributes. At this stage we are in consultation. We need to ensure that it is set at a level that raises substantial funds precisely for that purpose.

[Lord Paddick (LD)]

My Lords, I declare an interest as a leaseholder whose freeholder is trying to persuade us to allow him to extend the building by three storeys, with the inducement that it will cover the cost of the cladding remedial work if we agree to that extension. What right do leaseholders have to apply for a government grant when the freeholder, who also owns the management company, does not want to do so himself?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

First of all, the duty to keep the building safe is on the building holder. There seem to be a small number of isolated cases in which the building owner is able to access funds and is not doing so. We would like to be apprised of that situation, so that we can see what we can do to encourage them to do the right thing.

[Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)]

Earlier this month Dame Judith Hackitt, chair of the independent review of building regulations, urged homeowners to seek a second opinion on fire safety bills, warning that many are being “fleeced”. Do the Government support this advice?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, the Government support the principle that—in the same way you might go to a doctor and get an opinion, then seek a second opinion—we get the opportunity to have a second opinion on these matters, particularly where there are eye-watering costs. We do not want to see eye-watering costs levied when other mitigations provide a much more cost-effective solution.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

My Lords, it is not only the developers that might be at fault. The manufacturers of the cladding and insulation also knew they had problems with materials but carried on marketing them anyway. Are the Government going to let them get away with murder?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

We recognise that many people are responsible and that the standard of construction products has not been at the level we expect. That is why we have brought in a construction products regulator, situated in the Office for Product Safety and Standards, to oversee that within BEIS. Obviously, we are looking at how best to ensure that this does not happen in future and that those responsible make a contribution.

[The Lord Speaker (Lord McFall of Alcluith)]

The noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, is not present, so I call the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock.

[Baroness Pinnock (LD)]

My Lords, the Minister has just said that he is considering a further levy on developers to enable leaseholders not to have to pay huge bills. One leaseholder I know has a bill of £200,000 landing on their doormat to pay now. Why are the Government so willing to protect developers’ profits while throwing leaseholders to the wolves?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, I do not recognise that as a sensible position to hold. Admittedly, this is a situation that has built up over many decades and leaseholders face those eye-watering costs, but we need to recognise that in the 18 months since I have been a Minister, the amount of money put up by the Government, recognising that we needed to step up and in many cases support the leaseholders, has increased from £0.6 billion to £5.1 billion. That is a staggering sum of money. You could always do more, of course, and that is why we are trying to bring forward measures in the Building Safety Bill to make sure that this failure of regulation and of construction quality never happens again. That is what this Government are trying to do.

[Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I want to issue a trigger warning: the demonstration by thousands of leaseholders from all over the country at 1 pm today is likely to be very noisy. Luckily, they sneaked it in before the police and crime Bill could ban it. But seriously, I am delighted the Minister says he will come and meet the people affected. They have a range of creative solutions to offer and feel that their best ideas are being ignored and that they are treated like whingers. In addition, will the Minister do some internal lobbying of the incoming Secretary of State for Housing and explain the strength of feeling, frustration and fury across this House about the inadequacy of the solutions so far put forward? Leaseholders have ideas; listen to them.

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, I agree that it is really important to engage with the people affected. I have a considerable number of meetings with leaseholder groups and am in constant virtual contact with some of the people who I believe are doing their very best to see how we can creatively address this difficult issue. I am very happy to meet the people today. It is important that as politicians we step forward and meet those people affected.

[Baroness Uddin (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, does the Minister accept that seeking redress retrospectively will not save hundreds of thousands of leaseholders from painful and mounting bills, as all noble Lords have said, causing enormous distress? Has he considered having proper discussions with housing associations and local authorities, which have also sold houses to leaseholders?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

We continue to have a number of discussions with members of the G15 housing associations, and particularly with local authorities. The hard yards of achieving a situation in which the same cladding as Grenfell—the aluminium composite material—has been got off around 96% of those buildings, much of that during this pandemic, have required work at every level of government. We will continue to engage with them to come up with practical steps to deal with other buildings with unsafe cladding.

[The Lord Speaker (Lord McFall of Alcluith)]

My Lords, all supplementary questions have been asked and we now move to the next Question.

Leasehold Reform (Ground Rent) Bill [HL]

Lord Greenhalgh Excerpts

3rd reading
Tuesday 14th September 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ashton of Hyde (Con)]

My Lords, I have it in command from Her Majesty the Queen and His Royal Highness the Prince of Wales to acquaint the House that they, having been informed of the purport of the Leasehold Reform (Ground Rent) Bill, have consented to place their interests, so far as they are affected by the Bill, at the disposal of Parliament for the purposes of the Bill.

[The Minister of State, Home Office and Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government (Lord Greenhalgh) (Con)]

My Lords, before we progress with Third Reading, I will make a very brief statement and update on legislative consent in respect of the Bill. As the UK Government have made clear throughout the earlier stages of the Bill, we are committed to working closely with the Welsh Government on this legislation in order for it to be of the greatest benefit to leaseholders in both England and Wales. While the law of property is a restricted matter under the Government of Wales Act 2006, we have worked closely with our colleagues in the Welsh Government and taken note of their views in a spirit of collaboration and joint working. This has led to a series of amendments to ensure that the Bill works in the best possible way for the benefit of leaseholders wherever they live.

In summary, these amendments transfer executive competence to Welsh Ministers, meaning that the Bill now engages with the legislative consent process in the Senedd Cymru. The Welsh Government laid a legislative consent memorandum for the Bill before the Senedd in May this year, and we have had continued correspondence with Ministers advising that they share the same policy ambitions as the UK Government in this area. Senedd Cymru has not yet considered its position on legislative consent at this relatively early stage in the Bill’s passage through Parliament. However, I assure noble Lords that we are intent on securing legislative consent for this Bill and will continue to work with the Welsh Government in order to realise this ambition.

Motion

Moved by

[Lord Greenhalgh]

That the Bill do now pass.

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, I start by thanking noble Lords from all sides of the House for the constructive approach that they have taken to this important legislation. The Bill leaves your Lordships’ House as better legislation than when it arrived, and I thank noble Lords for their engagement with me both here and elsewhere. Leasehold legislation can be incredibly complex, but we are lucky in this place to have the benefit of a vast amount of knowledge and experience on these matters. I express my gratitude in particular to my noble friends Lord Hammond of Runnymede and Lord Young of Cookham, and to my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay of Clashfern, for the time they have given to me and my officials in sharing their knowledge and expertise, which has led directly to amendments that have improved the Bill.

I am pleased to say that there has been recognition across the House of the importance of getting this Bill on the statute book. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Lennie, and, before him, the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy of Southwark, on the Benches opposite, for the constructive nature of the conversations that we have had on this legislation. I also pay tribute to the noble Baroness, Lady Grender, for her work on the Bill, particularly on the vital issue of transparency.

There were, of course, other issues raised with the Bill. I thank the noble Lords, Lord Best and Lord Stunell, the noble Baroness, Lady Greengross, and my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay of Clashfern, for their engagement on the issues of the retirement sector and the transition period that the Government have proposed. Noble Lords who have been carefully watching the Bill’s progress will know that there have been competing views on the length and, indeed, existence of this transition period, including how it should apply to developments that are part-sold. While I remain convinced that our proposal strikes the right balance between the sector and consumers, I have appreciated debating the issue with noble Lords.

I thank the noble and learned Lord, Lord Etherton, and the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, for their scrutiny of the Bill; both have made valuable contributions to the debate. My thanks also go to the officials who have worked so hard to get us to this position: the Bill team of Jo Cagney, Rosie Gray, Tom Sedgwick, Sema Ashami, Isabel Hendy, Jenny Frew, Ian Martin, Harriet Fisher, Elly-Marie Connolly and David Gethin, my own private office, Sam Loxton, the Whips, Senedd officials, the Office of the Parliamentary Counsel and clerks in this place.

Finally, I will take the opportunity to thank the Competition and Markets Authority for its work on behalf of existing leaseholders who have found themselves at the sharp end of unfair practices in the leasehold sector. The CMA’s ongoing investigation is playing a vital role in reforming and improving the sector, and I am sure that the whole House will want to join me in paying tribute to its efforts. The Bill will provide transparency and fairness to a new generation of leaseholders. It is a vital first step towards realising our vision of a reformed and improved leasehold system free from the unfair practices that have been the experience for far too many homeowners. I beg to move.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, I join the Minister in thanking Members on all sides of the House for their contributions and expertise in working to get the Bill to where it is today. I also thank the Minister, the noble Lord, Lord Greenhalgh, for his courtesy in his dealings with my noble friend Lord Lennie and myself. We appreciate that very much. I also thank all the officials and his Bill team for their work with us. I place on record my thanks to Ben Wood and the office of the Leader of the Opposition for the work that they did.

My involvement was in the Second Reading of the Bill. I then became the Chief Whip, so I departed the scene, leaving it all to my noble friend Lord Lennie. I have come back to make these final remarks as my noble friend cannot be here today. I thank him in particular for all the work he did in taking up the Bill very much at short notice. I think we have made the Bill better than it was when it first came to this House. This is the first stage in leasehold reform; there is very much more to be done. We look forward to the work of the Law Commission and to a Bill that will address other leaseholder problems—but this is a good first stage and I am very happy with where we have got to so far.

[Lord Stunell (LD)]

My Lords, I too offer my thanks to those who have contributed to the improvement of the Bill and, in particular, to say that the Minister has been exceptionally helpful and generous with his time in proceeding with it through Committee and at the intermediate stages. My noble friend Lady Grender would have liked to be here, but I am speaking in her place on this occasion.

I have given notice to the Minister that I believe there is one aspect of this that still requires a word of clarification, which I hope he will be able to give as we move on. It is clearly very important that this Bill makes rapid progress, and even more important that the second Bill, long promised, follows close on its heels. The issue relates to retirement homes and those blocks that are partially occupied at the time that the changes instigated by this Bill come into force. There is a serious risk of a two-tier market in those blocks if this is introduced wholesale across every part of the same block. I hope that the Minister will be able to clarify the Government’s intent and the effect of this legislation, so that those who have made representations to me can have some understanding of the direction in which this legislation will now proceed. With those few words, I am very happy to see the Bill pass into law.

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Stunell, for giving me advance notice of his question. I have pushed to give him a clear answer on that. It is clear that there is a transition period until 1 April 2023. The Government propose not to exclude part-occupied developments from that cut-off period once the legislation takes effect, which will obviously be later than for all other areas. That is the balance that we are trying to strike, in the interests of consumers but also of the sector.

Bill passed and sent to the Commons.

Supported Housing: Funding

Lord Greenhalgh Excerpts

Tuesday 14th September 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Warwick of Undercliffe (Lab)]

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper. I declare my interest as chair of the National Housing Federation.

[The Minister of State, Home Office and Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government (Lord Greenhalgh) (Con)]

My Lords, funding is devolved to local authorities through the local government settlement; they are best placed to make decisions on local services. We continue to work with the sector to address issues of supply and quality. The plan for health and social care announced last week included a commitment that the Government will invest in supported housing, as well as exploring other innovative housing solutions to support more people to live independently at home.

[Baroness Warwick of Undercliffe (Lab)]

My Lords, supported housing plays a transformational role in maintaining independence for those with extra care needs, as well as people rebuilding their lives after street homelessness or domestic abuse. It was never more critical than during the pandemic and needs to be an integral part of our national recovery. Does the Minister recognise the enormous contribution of supported housing? Does he recall the £1.6 billion of ring-fenced funding, which sustained the provision of housing-related support, and does he believe that it needs to be reinstated in the upcoming CSR if we want to avoid a crisis for swathes of the most vulnerable people in our country?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, as I set out in my original Answer, the focus has been away from ring-fencing of funding, but of the £12 billion that has been provided during this pandemic for local councils to deal with the pressures, £6 billion was non-ring-fenced, and a lot of that money can be prioritised for the issues around housing-related support services to ensure that the quality of the services can be continued.

[Baroness Thornhill (LD)]

My Lords, there is genuine concern among councils that there is abuse of the exempt accommodation status, which grants housing run by a supported housing provider additional housing benefit. Does the Minister agree that, to do right by the majority of good providers, more must be done to increase the transparency of such accommodation costs and to give councils greater flexibilities and powers to act against those who are failing their most vulnerable tenants? Does he have any feedback from the supported housing pilots that were working on this important issue?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

The noble Baroness is right: we are concerned about quality issues, and that is why we carried out some pilots in Birmingham, Blackburn, Darwen, Hull, Bristol and Blackpool. We do not have the results from those pilots, but that is why we invested £5.4 million—to ensure that there is no drop in quality.

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

My Lords, following the success of the Everyone In campaign, which protected rough sleepers from Covid, Housing First is the most cost-effective supported housing solution, to stop those most at risk from returning to the streets. It is estimated that 16,000 places are required, but so far the Government have pledged funding for only 2,000. Can my noble friend hold out any prospect of a more generous response?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My noble friend knows that we are committed, in our latest manifesto, to expanding Housing First. The findings of our evaluation, together with our experiences from the pilots, will help to inform next steps.

[Lord McNicol of West Kilbride (Lab)]

My Lords, a recent report for Birmingham City Council found that an increasing number of landlords claiming to provide social housing are not providing adequate support for tenants or residents. Housing charity Crisis has previously called for tighter regulation to prevent this exploitation. Do the Government have any plans to introduce any such legislation? If not, will the Minister explore the need to do so?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, we are aware of the issues in Birmingham. That is one of the reasons why we carried out those pilots, which will inform future policy in this area. It is important that we deal with the small examples where standards are simply unacceptable.

[Baroness Thomas of Winchester (LD) [V]]

My Lords, as well as supported housing for disabled people, more wheelchair-accessible housing is greatly needed. What action will the Government take to ensure that it is provided?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, we are investing a considerable amount—up to 10% is the target—of the £11.5 billion affordable housing scheme in the supply of supported housing. Specifically, the Government have invested more than £4 billion through the disabled facilities grant, which has funded adaptations in almost 450,000 homes.

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, in his initial Answer the Minister said that the Government were investigating or exploring innovative housing solutions. How confident is he that such innovative housing solutions will deal with need in the supported housing area and help to underpin social justice?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

We are engaging very closely with stakeholders, such as the National Housing Federation and others, to ensure that we get this right. We will then develop the detail and will announce more information in the forthcoming White Paper on adult social care.

[Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)]

I declare my interest as laid out in the register. The Resolution Foundation has said that the Chancellor’s planned cuts in universal credit, along with other major decisions to be made in the autumn,

“are likely to shape the living standards of millions of families for years to come.”

Have the Government made an assessment of the impact of the Chancellor’s universal credit proposals on levels of need for supported housing?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, it is important to recognise that that was always going to be a temporary uplift in universal credit. We also need to recognise the current amount of money that goes into welfare costs for supported housing. Way back in 2015, the estimate was £3.5 billion, and the sum will almost certainly have risen since that time, when it was last measured. That goes some way to ensuring that there is support for people in supported housing.

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Brougham and Vaux) (Con)]

The noble Baroness, Lady Jolly, is not here, so I call the noble Baroness, Lady Wilcox of Newport.

[Baroness Wilcox of Newport (Lab)]

Does the Minister agree with one of the recommendations of the recent report by the National Housing Federation on supported housing, which says that local authorities should be required to

“develop a clear strategic understanding of the need for supported housing in their area, and a plan setting out the types of housing required, for whom, when and where”?

Will his department help local authorities to implement this measure?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, it is an entirely sensible recommendation that it is down to local authorities to base their plans on local needs. That is one of the reasons why we have moved away from specific ring-fenced funding—and of course, the Government can provide support for councils in that endeavour.

[Baroness Uddin (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, as a former councillor, I agree wholeheartedly with my noble friend Lady Warwick in calling for ring-fencing for supported housing, particularly for people with disabilities, those who are recovering from mental health issues and those who have come out of prison. Those people appear to be suffering significant neglect in services, with a deficit of essential care which breaches our commitment and ambition for equality and social justice. Will the Minister meet me to discuss some recent supported housing experience that highlights a worrying lack of quality provision, which severely impairs rehabilitation, recovery and the dignity of individuals?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, I am always happy to meet the noble Baroness, but I have to say that although there are some poor examples of supported housing—I am happy to learn about and understand that issue, and I will bring in my relevant ministerial colleagues in the department as well—there are also some tremendous examples of supported housing, in particular with the provision of extra care in sheltered housing, which is providing great accommodation for the elderly in our society.

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Brougham and Vaux) (Con)]

My Lords, all supplementary questions have been asked. We now move on to the next Question.

Net-Zero Emissions: Planning and Building Regulations

Lord Greenhalgh Excerpts

Thursday 9th September 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Whitty]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have to align England’s planning system and building regulations with (1) the net zero emissions target, and (2) other environmental goals.

[The Minister of State, Home Office and Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government (Lord Greenhalgh) (Con)]

Through our current programme of planning reform we will ensure that the planning system continues to play an effective role in supporting progress towards net-zero emissions and delivering meaningful change for our environment. In addition, the future homes standard will ensure that new homes built from 2025 will produce at least 75% less carbon emissions than homes delivered under current regulations.

[Lord Whitty (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister, but the fact is that the carbon assessments in the present system are not biting or binding. Construction and building use between them account for nearly 40% of carbon emissions. There are two things which might actually bite. First, in regeneration projects of housing or offices, demolish and rebuild means the release of embedded carbon, the carbon cost of rubble disposal and then the carbon cost of complete rebuild with carbon-intensive products such as steel, glass and concrete. Developers, local authority planners and architects should be required to first assess the relative carbon effects of the option of retrofitting to higher-grade efficiency standards. Secondly, building regulations should prescribe and enforce the use of energy efficiency and water-efficient systems and appliances in all new build and retrofit. Can the Minister include this in the reform of the planning system?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, I point out that the current approach is biting. We have achieved a growth in our economy of 78% while cutting emissions by 44% over the past three decades, which is something to celebrate and something that successive Governments can be proud of. We also recognise the benefits of retrofit ahead of demolition. Reuse and adaption of existing buildings can make an important contribution to tackling climate change, and the National Planning Policy Framework already encourages this.

[The Lord Bishop of Oxford]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his Answer. As your Lordships may be aware, the Church of England has declared a climate emergency and is aiming for net zero by 2030. In the diocese of Oxford, we are stewards of 470 parsonages and many other buildings. We have a lot of work to do, and a lot of investment is required to bring those buildings to net zero. Two things are preventing us making progress; we clearly need to spread the work over a decade. The first is knowing the Government’s plans for home heating and the second is the help and support that will be available from government for those changes. The system needs to be simple and sustainable and to carry confidence. When will we know the way forward?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

Well, we are shaping the way forward through building regulations, and there will be further movement on that this year as we move towards the future homes standard in 2025. We welcome the fact that the Church is doing its bit to recognise the climate emergency. I point out that at least 74% of councils are also working towards that, but more will follow as we respond to the consultation following the publication of the White Paper.

[Baroness Eaton (Con)]

Can my noble friend give an assurance that the planning system will continue to support and protect the environment?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

I can give my noble friend that assurance. Existing environmental protections will continue to be upheld and mandatory biodiversity net gain will lead to wider environmental benefits.

[Baroness Hayman (CB)]

My Lords, I declare my interests as set out in the register. In June this year, the Climate Change Committee recommended that all government policy, including planning decisions, should be subject to a net-zero test, yet last week the Government announced that they would not be reviewing the outdated airports national planning policy statement, so we risk the approval of infrastructure projects which clash with our climate and environmental commitments. Will the Government remedy that situation by including a net-zero test in the planning Bill?

[Lord Greenhalgh]

My Lords, I point out that our proposed outcomes-based system of integrated assessment will provide the Government with a mechanism to reflect their environmental ambitions, including wider net-zero commitments, in the planning process.

[The Lord Speaker (Lord McFall of Alcluith)]

I call the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley. No? I call the noble Lord, Lord Oates.

[Lord Oates (LD)]

My Lords, does the Minister recognise that the decision in 2016 to scrap the zero-carbon homes scheme was a catastrophic mistake, and can he tell us the amount of carbon that has been emitted from the 1 million substandard homes that have been built since that time?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, I point to the considerable progress we have made in cutting carbon emissions while building more homes. We have a plan to further reduce that. Our work on a full technical specification for the future homes standard has been accelerated, and we will consult on it in 2023. This year, we are introducing an interim uplift in Part L standards that will deliver a meaningful reduction in carbon emissions. This is the stepping stone to ensure that our future homes reduce their carbon footprint and we hit our targets.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, the water companies are committed to achieving net zero by 2030. To be able to do so, they need the tools to do the job. In ending the automatic right to connect, it is essential that sufficient sustainable drains are built. Will my noble friend ensure that the Government adopt the necessary building regulations to facilitate this?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My noble friend is an inveterate champion of sustainable urban drainage, which is far better than the use of grey infrastructure. Of course, we will reflect the desire to see sustainable planning and urban drainage solutions where practicable.

[Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)]

My Lords, I declare my interests as set out in the register. Last month, the i newspaper reported that homes in the UK heat up twice as fast as the European average during heatwaves. As a result, demand for air conditioning units has increased, which in turn uses energy and increases emissions. Can the Minister outline what steps the Government are taking to address this, especially considering that temperatures are expected to rise in the coming decades?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, above all, we recognise the need to move away from fossil fuel heating to meet our commitment to net-zero greenhouse gas emissions by 2050. We are approaching that by continuing to set performance-based standards rather than mandating a solution. We are making progress to achieve that and we will continue to come up with ideas that drive progress in this area.

[Lord Bird (CB)]

Could we also insist that the Government, as well as putting an enormous effort into zero-emissions reduction, look at all the industries that need to be supported so that they can counter the worst effects of what is happening with the climate?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

I think we are well positioned to take that on board, because the number of people in low-carbon industries has increased considerably and we are seeing a reduction in emissions.

[Baroness Sheehan (LD)]

My Lords, two Liberal Democrat Secretaries of State for Energy and Climate Change quadrupled our renewable electricity output, making us a world leader in offshore wind. With only 52 days to go before COP 26, why are the Government not saying a categoric no to projects such as the Cumbrian coal mine, which will move us backwards and torpedo our international credibility, not least in persuading China and India to stop their investment in coal?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, I am not surprised that the Cumbrian coal mine has been mentioned. As noble Lords will know, on 11 March the Secretary of State called in the planning application for a coking coal mine in Cumbria. The Secretary of State’s published letter calling in the application set out his reasons for doing so. The application having been called in, a public inquiry overseen by an independent planning inspector is currently under way to consider the proposal. Once the inquiry is closed, the inspector will prepare a report and recommendation and the case will come before Ministers. Therefore, it would be inappropriate to comment on the details of the application.

[Lord Bilimoria (CB)]

My Lords, the built environment is responsible for around 43% of total carbon emissions and the planning system has a central role to play in addressing its environmental impact. As president of the CBI, I ask the Minister whether he agrees that it is absolutely essential to business that there is consistency and alignment across planning, net zero and building safety. Furthermore, although business supports the Government’s vision for a streamlined, faster process for planning decisions, surely he would agree that more needs to be done and set out so that planning can incentivise greener homes, greener buildings and a low-carbon energy network.

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, I would agree with what the noble Lord said: it is important to join up government and we are making progress in this area. How we intend to do this will be outlined imminently as we respond to the consultation on the Planning for the Future White Paper and set out our legislation in this Session.

[The Lord Speaker (Lord McFall of Alcluith)]

My Lords, all supplementary questions have been asked and we now move to the next Question.

Grenfell Tower: Demolition

Lord Greenhalgh Excerpts

Monday 6th September 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question of which I have given private notice. In doing so, I refer the House to my relevant interests as set out in the register.

[The Minister of State, Home Office and Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government (Lord Greenhalgh) (Con)]

The Government recognise how important and sensitive this decision is, particularly for bereaved families, survivors and local residents. Following important independent safety advice, the Government are engaging closely with the community as we consider what the future of Grenfell Tower should be. No decision has been made.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, over the weekend, survivors, victims’ families and the local community found out about the plans to demolish Grenfell Tower through reports across the media. The decision to speak to the media before any consultation with those affected was completely wrong. Can the Minister confirm what discussions have taken place with structural engineers and other professionals regarding the demolition of the tower and the future of the site? Can he also confirm that full discussion and consultation on the demolition of the tower and the future of the site will take place urgently with survivors, victims’ families, Grenfell United and the local community, and that he will ensure that there are no more of these lapses and no more of this frankly disrespectful treatment of those people by the Government? Also, will he take the opportunity now to apologise for the briefing over the weekend and the reports in the media?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, I want to be absolutely clear that this was not a briefing by the Government; it had nothing to do with the Government. On Friday, I had a meeting where it was made very clear that no decision had been taken—so I was as surprised as the noble Lord by what we read in the Sunday papers and subsequently. The Government have embarked on a phase of concentrated engagement on the future of the tower; this started around a year ago and has intensified since May, when we published a series of engineering reports that included a peer review of the major review that was carried out by Atkins. I can certainly continue to make the point that the Government will proceed by very carefully engaging with and consulting the community on this very sensitive matter.

[Lord Naseby (Con)]

Is my noble friend aware that this site reminds one of the failures of building safety provisions? It has been there for too long now. The noble Lord on the Opposition Benches is right that we need to move on. Against that background, will my noble friend make sure that the project he has just outlined does not drift and that, certainly this side of Christmas, there will be a clear and concise provision of what is to happen?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, I underline that no decision has been taken, but we are aware that we have had unambiguous advice from engineering experts that the tower should be carefully taken down. We have published those studies, but I reiterate that no decision has been taken. Obviously, a decision on this cannot be put off indefinitely, and one will be made in due course—but not via the media.

[Baroness Falkner of Margravine (CB)]

My Lords, will the Minister tell the House whether the Secretary of State is in receipt of a report that says that the physical infrastructure of the tower is extremely damaged and creates a potential hazard to a nearby local school, as well as other buildings, in terms of its safety? If that is the case, does he accept that it is vital that the residents surrounding the tower are also consulted on its future, alongside the victims’ families?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, I am happy to clarify that there has been ongoing engagement not only with the bereaved and survivors but also with the community. I also want to put on record that there are no immediate safety concerns and that safety and maintenance are ongoing as part of a programme of works that will be completed only in the spring of 2022. Therefore, the coverage reporting that the school is in danger is absolutely wrong. At this stage, the tower is safe and is being kept safe until next spring.

[Baroness Pinnock (LD)]

My Lords, I draw the attention of the House to my entry in the register of interests. As we all know, Grenfell Tower is the site of an appalling tragedy. The sight of it is a constant reminder of the building safety and fire safety crises that Grenfell exposed. Does the Minister agree that the demolition of Grenfell is also the removal of that potent symbol, which is a much-needed reminder of the absolute necessity that the Government solve the cladding and building safety crises that are destroying the lives of thousands of leaseholders? Does he also agree that demolition before the end of the Grenfell inquiry might remove some absolutely important information and facts that could lead to the resolution of this problem?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, I have been very clear that the police have said that they do not require any evidence from the tower as part of their investigation. I am also aware that we need to engage very carefully on the future of the site. That is why we have asked an independent commission—the Memorial Commission— to look at options for the future. As I said in response to the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, no decision has been taken at this point.

[The Archbishop of York]

My Lords, as I am sure many noble Lords know, my colleague, the Bishop of Kensington, and other community, Christian and faith leaders, have been hugely involved with survivors’ and victims’ groups in Grenfell, where there is, of course, much pain and anxiety caused by the newspaper reports over the weekend. Although it is good to hear the Minister say that there will be discussions with those community groups, I urge him to consider working with the Church and other community leaders to have these discussions as a matter of urgency, because there is such concern raised at the moment and people feel as though—whether the feeling is correct or not—they are not being consulted.

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

I thank the most reverend Primate for making those points. It is important to engage with faith communities and local residents as well as the bereaved and survivors. I assure the House that there have been weekly meetings with particular groups, fortnightly meetings, monthly meetings, online sessions and face-to-face meetings throughout the pandemic. We will continue to do our best to engage with the community, the bereaved and survivors.

[Lord Anderson of Swansea (Lab)]

My Lords, I speak as a former councillor for the adjoining ward of Golborne, and someone who has a London base within sight of Grenfell. Grenfell obviously should go: there were massive failures by the local authority in the past in respect of consultation. Now there appears to be a very different view on the part of the local authority and a much greater readiness to consult, and this is very welcome.

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, in addition to the consultation by the site team of my department, MHCLG, the local authority is engaging reactively. I heard from the leader of the council this week that it has another meeting to look at mental health and other well-being issues, and it has asked my officials to join that meeting. The Government at every level have a duty to do their best to make sure that we learn from this tragedy and that we continue to engage with the residents, bereaved and survivors.

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

My Lords, the Minister will know that the Kensington Aldridge Academy is located at the base of the Grenfell Tower. It had to move out following the fire and move back in 2018. What consideration has been given to the future of that school in the discussions referred to by my noble friend?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, despite the reporting, I can assure my noble friend that the school does not require any move or decant in the future. The tower is safe; there are no immediate safety issues. As I said, the programme of safety maintenance continues until the spring of next year.

[Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab)]

My Lords, picking up on the points raised by the most reverend Primate, will the Minister tell the House what proportion, if any, of those who were displaced immediately following the fire and had to be found temporary accommodation are still in temporary accommodation? Of those, how many are still in the borough and how many have had to go elsewhere?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, I know that the vast majority of people have found secure, settled and long-term accommodation. I will have to write to her about the absolute number of people still in temporary, but relatively stable, accommodation and the number of those who are outside the borough.

[Lord Tugendhat (Con)]

My Lords, I congratulate the Minister on coming before the House at such an early stage and subjecting himself to questions on this important matter. That is a token of good faith. I hope that, when the final decision is taken, there will be a suitable memorial for what has happened. The point about lessons to be learned is something of which we all need to take note. There will need to be an appropriate memorial, not only to the lives that were lost but for the reasons those lives were lost.

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, as someone who was made a Minister in March of last year and entered this House only the following month, this is certainly a new experience for me. Actually, it is slightly more enjoyable than what we have experienced, as we are able to see more faces on these Benches. I can assure the House that the work of the independent memorial commission is designed to do precisely that: to find a fitting and long-term memorial to mark the greatest loss of life in a fire since the Second World War. We want to make sure that we get that right and the commission needs to do its work in time.