Constitutional Commission

Lord Greenhalgh Excerpts

Thursday 9th June 2022 Grand Committee

[The Minister of State, Home Office and Department for Levelling Up, Housing & Communities (Lord Greenhalgh) (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, for securing a debate on this incredibly important topic. The Constitution Committee recently published its report on the union of the United Kingdom and, in addition to the points raised in that report, it has been very interesting for me to hear the contributions from noble Lords.

I take issue with the idea that there is an aggressive form of unionism. This Government are really committed to strengthening the union of the United Kingdom, protecting and promoting its combined strengths and the values that we all share, and ensuring that the institutions of the United Kingdom are used to benefit people in every part of the country, building on hundreds of years of partnership and a shared history since the Acts of Union.

We are also great believers in devolution, and that it allows communities across the four nations to reap the benefits of the broad shoulders of the union, while benefiting from decisions being placed closest to those who they affect. We remain committed to working collaboratively with the devolved Administrations to support people across the whole of the UK. As my noble friend Lady Fraser put it, we have the structures in place and now need to focus on getting the tone right. The arrangements agreed in the intergovernmental relations review herald a new era for collaboration across the United Kingdom, facilitating the sharing of experiences and learning. I point out that there were 110 ministerial meetings in the first quarter of this year alone and 440 such meetings last year, so collaboration is strong.

We are focusing across the United Kingdom to deliver better outcomes for citizens to tackle the shared challenges that we face, from providing up to £400 billion in Covid support for individuals, business and public services to close collaboration on the approach to settling the Ukrainian refugee issue. We should recognise that the Autumn Budget had the first allocation of the UK-wide growth funds, including the levelling-up fund and community ownership fund. That provided the largest annual block grants, in real terms, of any spending review settlement since the devolution of 1998.

I point out to the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, that the UK shared prosperity funding for Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland matches the size of the ERDF and the ESF in real terms, when it is fully ramped up to 2025. I reject the notion of any kind of power grab; there is 25% more per person for the Scottish Government, 20% more per person for the Welsh Government and 21% more per person for the Northern Ireland Executive, when we look at UK government spending over the SR21 period.

In response to the noble Lord, Lord Murphy of Torfaen, on looking seriously at any of the independent commissions, we will continue to make sure that constitutional arrangements remain fit for purpose. Instead of a single commission, we are already taking forward separate workstreams, such as the Judicial Review and Courts Act, and delivery of the Dunlop review. The noble Lords, Lord Khan and Lord Wigley, and others mentioned the Welsh constitution commission. The Secretary of State for Wales and the Minister for Levelling Up, the Union and Constitution have given evidence to that commission, and we are looking forward to heading its findings in due course.

The noble Lord, Lord Murphy, and the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie, raised the importance of using the structures of the Good Friday agreement and ensuring that they are used to get the Administration up and running again. The institutions of the Good Friday agreement are up and running and the next British-Irish Council is on 7 July. The focus should be on wider issues such as the cost of living. That is what the polling suggests.

We recognise that collaboration is at the heart of the Government’s core mission for the whole of the United Kingdom. That is reflected in our levelling-up White Paper. We recognise that in Northern Ireland it is vital that the parties form an Executive as soon as possible. We are very keen that that is through negotiation but, if not, we are looking at other ways of dealing with that.

Finally, I thank noble Lords on all sides of the Committee for their contributions today. I know it has been hard to stick to time without a clock, but we have managed to get through the debate in the allotted time. I particularly thank the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, for securing this incredibly important debate.

Prime Minister: Meeting with First Ministers of the Devolved Governments

Lord Greenhalgh Excerpts

Wednesday 8th June 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government when the Prime Minister next expects to meet with the First Ministers of the devolved governments; and what subjects are expected to be on the agenda.

[The Minister of State, Home Office and Department for Levelling Up, Housing & Communities (Lord Greenhalgh) (Con)]

My Lords, the new Prime Minister and heads of devolved Governments council commits to meeting at least annually as part of the Review of Intergovernmental Relations published in January. The inaugural council will meet to consider issues of strategic importance to the whole of the UK, and the Prime Minister may also engage with the First Ministers in other fora, as he did four times last year.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for his reply, but does he agree that devolution means that devolved authorities should be spending money only on the devolved areas and that any spending on reserved areas would be improper? Can the Government now consider monitoring the expenditure of the devolved authorities to ensure that they are not spending money on reserved areas, as the Scottish Government are? They are spending £20 million on the constitution, including employing civil servants to prepare for a referendum and for breaking up the United Kingdom. Should this not be on the agenda for the next meeting between the Prime Minister and the First Ministers?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

I take the point that the noble Lord has made on a number of occasions. It is clearly an important issue to maintain the union. The devolution settlement set out those responsibilities that fall within devolved and reserved competence. Scottish Ministers are accountable to their own legislature and electorate for their actions, including their expenditure decisions.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, on the subject of ministerial responsibility and competence, my noble friend answered a Written Question yesterday indicating that the Government had decided that they would not make the QEII Centre available, should this House need to move, as part of their levelling-up agenda. Does my noble friend not realise that this is a matter for this House and not for the Government, and that £10 million of taxpayers’ money has been spent on looking at the suitability of the QEII Centre? Who will pick up the tab for this PR stunt?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

Well, I was forewarned that the written response that I gave would not exactly be popular with Members on all sides of the House. All I can say is that it is not for my right honourable friend to determine where the House sits but, as someone who is responsible for the QEII Centre, he has ruled that out. I have outlined that in my written response.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, can the Minister confirm that when the Prime Minister next meets the First Minister of Wales, he will confirm the pledge that he made at the time of the Brexit referendum, that Wales will be fully reimbursed for every penny of EU regional and social funding lost as a consequence of that Brexit vote?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

There is a commitment to invest in Wales and we have seen so far, as part of the 2021 spending review, 20% more per person for the Welsh Government. I am sure that we will continue to honour those commitments.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, the Minister has not answered my noble friend Lord Forsyth’s question. Some £10.9 million of public money has been spent on the Queen Elizabeth II conference centre. It is completely wrong for that money to have been spent for the Government arbitrarily to make a decision that rules it out.

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

All I can say in response is that I understand where the noble Lord is coming from. I realise there has been some expenditure, but my right honourable friend can determine whether he wishes to make the QEII available; it is for this House to decide its future. I will take away sentiments from all sides of the House.

[Lord Morris of Aberavon (Lab)]

My Lords, the devolved Governments are consulted on the effects of international treaties but, for reasons of confidentiality, the Government refuse to disclose the results of these consultations. The noble Lord, Lord Grimstone, told the International Agreements Committee on 27 April that he could “categorically” say that the devolved Governments were not “satisfied”. Will this matter be put on the agenda at any future ministerial meetings?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

I am not sure I can specifically answer that at the Dispatch Box, but there are now mechanisms, as part of the review of intergovernmental relations, to ensure we have the structures to take these points on board in the appropriate setting.

[Baroness Humphreys (LD)]

My Lords, I welcomed the demise of the Joint Ministerial Committee earlier this year. It was doomed to failure principally because it was rarely convened by the Prime Minister. What structures have been put in place to ensure that two of the main weaknesses of that system are addressed: so that the First Ministers meet with the PM, in the new intergovernmental forum, more regularly than once a year; and that all four nations are able to contribute issues to the agenda?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

There are structures. There is a commitment to one meeting a year for the council, as I said in my initial response, and we have 10 interministerial groups, the Interministerial Standing Committee and the Finance: Interministerial Standing Committee. The infrastructure is there, but we have to go with the spirit of the legislation, as machinery and structures are not enough.

[Lord Bellingham (Con)]

My Lords, when the Minister and the Prime Minister attend the council, will they remind the First Ministers of the extraordinary success of the Platinum Jubilee weekend and of the strength of the union?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

I am sure there will be every opportunity to point to the strength of the union. I think the Platinum Jubilee celebrations were an absolute triumph; my favourite was breakfast with Paddington Bear.

[Lord Khan of Burnley (Lab)]

My Lords, earlier this year, the UK Government published plans for the UK shared prosperity fund, which replaces the European Regional Development Fund and European Social Fund. Despite a previous pledge to match the size of former EU funding in each nation of the UK, the Government have clearly broken that promise for Wales, which is expecting a shortfall of £772 million. What discussions has the Prime Minister held with the Welsh Government over this? I believe the Welsh First Minister is here next Monday, celebrating 100 years of Welsh Labour. Maybe the Prime Minister and the First Minister can have those discussions while enjoying those celebrations.

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

I am sure they will have those discussions but, as I said in a previous answer, 20% more has been spent on the Welsh Government per person, as part of the spending review 2021. In addition, the UK shared prosperity fund is going to deliver £2.6 billion spread across the country, with £585 million earmarked for Wales. That is a significant sum of money.

[Lord Selkirk of Douglas (Con)]

I served as an elected Member for the first eight years of the Scottish Parliament. Will the Government keep up a close working relationship with the Scottish Government? It is very much in the interests of the United Kingdom as a whole. Will he confirm that necessary relevant steps relating to security will be shared by both Governments?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

I am sure there is a commitment to share security matters. Importantly, the intergovernmental relations review has provided the infrastructure to ensure that these matters can be discussed in the appropriate way.

[Lord Soley (Lab)]

As the Minister will know, the Scottish Government have been unable to complete the census. People who lose out from that are usually in low-income groups, who do not complete the census there. I have a feeling that that will affect the financial settlement that the UK Government then have to give to Scotland. If he does not have the answer to that, perhaps he could let us know whether the failure to complete the census in Scotland will impact on the financial settlement for Scotland.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

Clearly, it is important to get a census right. On a normal basis, that is completed every 10 years. I am sure there will be an opportunity to discuss these matters as part of the finance and interministerial committee. I am sure that will be at the top of the agenda.

[Lord Roberts of Llandudno (LD)]

My Lords, are the Government aware that only 2% of the insulin used so essentially by diabetic folk in the UK is produced in the United Kingdom, in Wrexham in Wales? What are the Government doing to ensure, if there is a split in the United Kingdom, and with our foolish distancing from Europe, that we—or you—have any insulin to keep your diabetes in check?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

I was wondering when that was going to get back to the original Question, but it is important that we maintain a strong union. We are aware that the Welsh Government have established an independent commission to look at constitutional matters. We should wait for that to report. I do not see any strong desire from the Welsh to leave our great United Kingdom.

Social Homes for Rent

Lord Greenhalgh Excerpts

Thursday 26th May 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Shipley (LD)]

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper and remind the House of my interests in the register.

[The Minister of State, Home Office and Department for Levelling Up, Housing & Communities (Lord Greenhalgh) (Con)]

The provision of affordable housing is a central pillar of the Government’s plan to level up the country, which is why we are investing £11.5 billion in affordable homes over the next five years. Our affordable homes programme, which began last year, aims to deliver 32,000 homes for social rent—double that of the previous programme.

[Lord Shipley (LD)]

The Minister talks about 32,000 homes for social rent, yet 1.2 million households in this country are on council house waiting lists. The Government recently published their levelling up White Paper, which has 12 missions. Not one of those missions talks about affordable or social housing for rent. Can the Minister explain why?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

We have a commitment here, specifically within the affordable homes programme, to build more homes for social rent. We have also introduced a number of mechanisms that enable councils to build again. A generation of councils has not built any homes, or very few, but we have seen far more in the last decade. The levelling-up missions are clear, but we also have very clear missions to build more homes of all types and tenures.

[Lord Bird (CB)]

Will the Minister look very kindly at the idea of sociable housing, where you get sociable mix? The problem we now have is social ghettos of poverty. We need to create a mix, as well as addressing the problem that the children of the middle classes are also unable to get housing, so why do we not try to mix the two crises together?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

The noble Lord is always on the money. We need to create places and not just homes on mono-tenured estates. That is why the affordable homes programme is looking to increase the number of social homes for rent, but also other forms of subsidised housing such as affordable rent and low-cost home ownership, so that people of all incomes can live in the same place.

[Baroness Andrews (Lab)]

My Lords, when are we going to have a housing policy that takes account of the fact that we have an ageing society? How can you level up when we are expecting a new generation of elderly people in poverty who will go on paying rent as long as they live? If we can plan for an ageing society, why can we not plan to have flexible and adapted housing, systematically provided and spatially planned, which can allow for people to age in place? That would save enormous social and economic costs.

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

We do recognise that we have an ageing society, which is why a chunk of the £11.5 billion affordable homes programme will go towards subsidising housing for the elderly. We recognise in our planning policies that areas need to do their bit to house people, and also to enable people to remain in their homes if that is what they choose to do.

[Baroness Watkins of Tavistock (CB)]

My Lords, the promotion of shared ownership homes has helped some people get on to the housing ladder. However, the terms of resale are onerous, particularly for those who wish to move swiftly for new work. Some families default on the mortgage element of their shared ownership, which is likely to increase as a result of increased mortgage costs. Does the Minister agree that, if housing associations are expected to buy back such flats and houses in these circumstances, they could be put back into the social home rental market quickly?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

I recognise that there are issues with shared ownership tenure. One of the problems has been that many shared owners own only a small amount of the equity and are often faced with heavy remediation costs. I certainly take that point on board, and we should allow flexibility, where it makes sense, to shift from shared ownership into social housing. I shall take that point away and discuss it with my officials.

[Lord Grade of Yarmouth (Con)]

My Lords, one of the unexpected consequences of the Covid lockdown period is that people are discovering that they do not need as much office space as they used to. Everyone is downsizing and there is a glut of office accommodation on the market these days which, I suspect, will remain. Might the Government look at the planning required to convert office to residential? That might be a quick fix to create a lot of new homes.

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for raising that issue. Of course, we went through an era of liberalisation around change of use from office to residential, and that is a factor that local authorities should look at as they develop their local plans: to get the right balance between economic development and providing housing for their communities.

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

Is the Minister aware of the Select Committee’s unanimous report Meeting Housing Demand, which said:

“Those living in the private rented sector are more likely to live in poor quality, overcrowded conditions than owner-occupiers, and often have limited forms of redress”?


Does the Minister agree and, if he does, what is he doing to assist people to move out of very highly priced and often poor private rented accommodation into more affordable housing?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

The Government do recognise the issue that the noble Lord describes. That is why in this Session we are bringing forward a private renters’ Bill and applying the decent homes standard to the private rented sector so we can raise the quality of the stock. However, we also recognise that we need to bring in more affordable housing, including more social housing.

[The Lord Speaker (Lord McFall of Alcluith)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Thomas of Winchester, will now make a virtual contribution.

[Baroness Thomas of Winchester (LD) [V]]

My Lords, what action are the Government taking to address the need for more accessible housing, and when can we expect a response to the consultation on raising accessible housing standards?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

As the noble Baroness indicates, we have just carried out a consultation on raising accessible housing standards, and I shall write to her to give more details on that point.

[Baroness Masham of Ilton (CB)]

My Lords, is the Minister aware that there is a big problem with not enough social homes for people who have wheelchairs? Is this not one of the reasons for bed blocking in hospitals?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

We do recognise that the perennial issue of bed blocking . It is important to get the balance of who accesses social housing, with proper regard for people who require wheelchair access to homes. The noble Baroness makes a very important point.

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

The Government built only just under 6,000 social rent homes in 2020. That was a 12% decrease on the previous year and an 85% decrease on 11 years ago. With shortages of materials and labour, many see the target of 300,000 homes a year by the mid-2020s as almost impossible. Does the Minister still think that target is achievable?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

We try to set specific, measurable and achievable targets. I do not want to trade statistics, but I point out that in the last decade, we have seen local authorities once again building homes for social rent—18,300 homes for social rent. In the 13 years from 1997 to 2010, local authorities built merely 2,994 affordable homes. So, with councils able to build more social rented homes, we will have a very good chance of meeting those targets.

[Lord Best (CB)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that the Government get incredible value for money investing in the acquisition and modernisation of existing rundown privately rented properties? This converts them into affordable, safe, secure socially rented homes, but it also addresses fuel poverty, hits the decarbonisation and climate change agenda and tackles health inequalities, because people are in cold, damp and hazardous conditions. It serves the levelling-up agenda as well, because it produces jobs, employment, training and apprenticeships. It does all these things at once, and the Government get most of their money back in lower housing benefit costs.

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

The noble Lord is right that we have seen a spiralling increase in housing benefit costs—staggering increases over the past decade or so. Of course, taking poor-quality private rented accommodation and turning it into high-quality affordable housing is a good thing and provides value for money for the taxpayer.

[Baroness Thornhill (LD)]

The Government’s recent announcement that right to buy is being extended to housing association properties will even further deplete the stock of homes for social rent. Is it now time to allow councils to keep 100% of their receipts from right to buy in order to rebuild and to give them the ability to set the discounts locally that their particular circumstances dictate?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

I have some sympathy with the point that the noble Baroness makes, but we should point out that there are now greater flexibilities around right-to-buy receipts—not necessarily 100%, but they are greater. We have also removed the cap on borrowing for the housing revenue account, and that is why we are seeing councils building far more homes than they previously did.

High-rise Buildings: Evacuation of Disabled Residents

Lord Greenhalgh Excerpts

Wednesday 25th May 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Brinton]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to provide for legally-binding evacuation plans for all disabled residents in high-rise buildings.

[The Minister of State, Home Office and Department for Levelling Up, Housing & Communities (Lord Greenhalgh) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government have launched a new consultation on proposals to support the fire safety of residents unable to self-evacuate in an emergency. These include a person-centred fire risk assessment for these residents, simultaneous evacuation of buildings and the provision of information to fire and rescue services to feed into their emergency response. The Government’s response to the PEEPs consultation was published on 18 May. It sets out the difficulties in mandating PEEPs in high-rise residential settings.

[Baroness Brinton (LD) [V]]

My Lords, the Government’s consultation says that PEEPs would not be proportionate, practical or safe. Instead, it proposes that they stay put. But staying put is what killed 40% of disabled residents in Grenfell Tower. Sir Martin Moore-Bick’s inquiry recommended PEEPs and a premises information box. The fire chiefs’ guidance makes it clear that PEEPs and an information box would help them to evacuate disabled people. Inside Housing has reported that the Government rejected PEEPs after a single meeting with building owners. So how will disabled people be able to get out of a burning high-rise building if fire and safety officers cannot get to them?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

It is quite clear that, while we are not mandating PEEPs in high-rise residential buildings, we are consulting on these EEIS proposals. This does not remove the ability of responsible persons to implement PEEPs if they agree with residents that it is appropriate.

[Baroness Masham of Ilton (CB)]

My Lords, would it be possible to have evacuation lifts in all high-rise buildings? This would benefit everybody.

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

Having evacuation lifts in high rises, as well as more than a single staircase, is the sort of thing we need to capture and make very clear in building regulations. This will become something of the purview of the new building safety regulator. It is a very good point.

[Baroness Sanderson of Welton (Con)]

My Lords, I declare my interest as a community adviser on Grenfell, so I really do understand the anger at the decision not to implement PEEPs. In this instance, it is important to acknowledge that this was done not just on a whim or after a single meeting. The truth is that a tremendous amount of work has been done on this behind the scenes, but we have not arrived at a satisfactory place. To that end, would my noble friend agree that it is hugely important that all the interested parties follow the lead of Andy Roe, the LFB commissioner, take part in the new consultation and make their concerns known so that we can make progress and get to a better place?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for her recognition of the hard work it has taken to get to this position. There were nearly 400 responses. All were carefully gone through and responded to as part of the previous consultation. I join her in encouraging all parties to come forward and respond to the EEIS+ consultation. The Government really are listening and it is important that we hear from as many diverse stakeholders as possible.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, I draw the attention of the House to my relevant interest as a vice-president of the Local Government Association. As the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, said, the Government’s position is that personal emergency evacuation plans for people who would struggle to get out of a burning building are not proportionate, practical or safe to implement. Can the noble Lord please explain the Government’s reasoning for coming to that conclusion? I am sure he can acknowledge that disabled people, their families and friends and campaigners are very worried about that. We need an explanation of why the Government have taken this position.

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

There are real concerns based on the previous consultation around practicality—the measures that get mobility-impaired residents out in advance of fire and rescue services, which on average respond in six to seven minutes—proportionality in a residential setting, where there are rarely 24-hour staff to carry out evacuations, and safety around evacuation of all residents that does not hinder the fire and rescue services fighting the fire. Those are the concerns we have outlined in the current consultation.

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

Does my noble friend agree that the need to evacuate disabled residents from high-rise flats would be greatly reduced if the remediation measures to reduce fire risks took place? Following the passage of the Building Safety Act, can my noble friend now say what progress is being made in eliminating those risks from high-rise buildings?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My noble friend is right that the concern is ultimately for those buildings where simultaneous evacuation is in place. We are making progress in ACM buildings and high-rises with other forms of flammable cladding. Most importantly, we now have a situation where we are getting the polluters to pay and the funding in place to get remediation done as quickly as is practical.

[Lord Stunell (LD)]

My Lords, the Prime Minister gave an undertaking that every recommendation of the Grenfell inquiry would be implemented in full. PEEPs were a clear recommendation of that inquiry. That commitment was underlined by the Secretary of State for what was then the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government. The Minister himself made similar comments during the passage of the Building Safety Act. Can he not understand the anger, fear and frustration of disabled people living in high-rise blocks about what, from an earlier question, appears to be what we might understand to be a delay but might be a U-turn on the Government’s commitment to implement PEEPs?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

I genuinely understand the concerns and frustrations, but we have come forward with what we believe to be a sensible proposal. This is a genuine consultation with a call for evidence for examples of practical, proportionate and safe PEEPs and other fire safety initiatives. It also includes a working group with responsible persons, residents and disability groups to examine the role that neighbours and friends can play in supporting the evacuation of vulnerable residents. We are listening and it is important that we get a policy position that works.

[Baroness Altmann (Con)]

My Lords, I congratulate my noble friend on all the work being done and encourage him and his department to make sure that it is completed as soon as possible. May I ask for an assurance that the needs of frail elderly people, who might not be registered as disabled, are also taken into account, as they might be equally unable to self-evacuate in an emergency?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My noble friend is right that we need to capture those people who may not present themselves as disabled but who clearly have mobility impairments. That is the purpose of the EEIS proposal, which is around ensuring that we can identify those people, that we can organise person-centred fire risk assessments and have home safety visits to come up with measures that do the best to keep them safe. That applies to all mobility-impaired residents.

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

My Lords, behind all these fine words is a practical question: how do you evacuate someone in a wheelchair from an 11, 12 or 13-storey building? The Minister seems to be saying that there will not be any more fires in buildings because of the insulation that the noble Lord, Lord Young, mentioned, but there are practical problems in getting people out in a wheelchair down one staircase when the fire people are trying to come up and do other things. Is there a solution?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

This is the real issue, which is why I think the noble Baroness raised the importance of evacuation lifts and having means of exiting a building in that very case. We need to recognise that fire and rescue services need to work as fast as possible to respond and contain the fire. Above all, we need to keep all residents in that building safe.

[Baroness Walmsley (LD)]

Did I understand the Minister to say in a previous answer, that in the absence of PEEPs, in the case of a fire, it could be up to family and friends to get a disabled person out?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

No, I was saying that we have a working group looking at the role that friends, neighbours and other residents may play in supporting the evacuation. That is essentially what I was saying: it is a working group to bring together evidence and information as part of the consultation.

[Baroness Uddin (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, is the fundamental question not why people with mobility issues are housed in these unsafe environments and conditions? Is it because there is simply not enough accommodation available to local authorities and housing associations? What are the Government doing to address mobility issues in their housing planning?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

Obviously we need to provide more affordable housing, which I think is what under- pinned the question. We have invested £11.5 billion as part of the affordable homeless programme and plan to build around 32,000 socially rented homes, double the current amount.

Levelling-up Report

Lord Greenhalgh Excerpts

Thursday 19th May 2022 Lords Chamber

[The Lord Bishop of London]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what metrics will inform their annual Levelling Up report.

[The Minister of State, Home Office and Department for Levelling Up, Housing & Communities (Lord Greenhalgh) (Con)]

The annual report will use metrics listed in the levelling-up White Paper technical annexe. There are 22 headline metrics for describing the specific disparities and monitoring progress against the 12 missions, and 27 supporting metrics which capture information relevant to, but broader than, the specific missions. These are selected based on their relevance, availability, frequency of updates and geographical coverage. New and improved data sources may be added as metrics to relevant missions.

[The Lord Bishop of London]

I thank the Minister for his reply. Within the levelling-up White Paper and Bill, there is a lot of planning for housing and communities. Will Her Majesty’s Government commit to planning communities with resources that account for community-level healthcare interventions that are designed around health and well-being, as well as their measurement, without which the levelling-up agenda will not succeed?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

It is important that we look at some of these missions in the round. In that question, the right reverend Prelate brought together three specific missions: we have a health mission, a well-being mission and a housing mission but it is important that we find ways of ensuring progress on all fronts. We have set up an advisory council to do precisely that.

[Lord Adonis (Lab)]

My Lords, as a contribution to levelling up, does the Secretary of State, Michael Gove, have any proposals to relocate his department and the noble Lord the Minister to Stoke? Does he not think that this might be a constructive suggestion and, in particular, enable him to practise what he preaches?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

I thought this Question might go in all directions, including Stoke. We actually have a department in Wolverhampton and are going to conduct a ministerial board meeting there—but personally, I will be joining remotely.

[Baroness Wheatcroft (CB)]

My Lords, can the Minister simplify things a little and tell the House how much the Government plan to spend on levelling up?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

Of course, the expenditure is governed by the expenditure review, and I note that this is a nationwide pledge to level up. Record amounts of money are being spent through the devolved nations.

[The Lord Speaker (Lord McFall of Alcluith)]

We have a virtual contribution from the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, will my noble friend tell me whether it is strictly necessary to dumb down the English language in order to level up?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, I do not think the technical annexe is particularly dumbed down—it is pretty complicated stuff. To have a clear sense of direction supported by metrics which are then enshrined in statute is hardly dumbing things down.

[Baroness Andrews (Lab)]

My Lords, forgive me for not having the technical annexe, the 22 metrics or the others that the Minister has alluded to. Can he tell me whether it will include the numbers of people using food banks and of new food banks having to be started because of the increasing cost of living? Will we have any evaluation of the catch-up programme, which is so inadequate, in terms of the impact of the pandemic on children and young people?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

We recognise the impact of the pandemic and the cost-of-living crisis. But all the metrics are set out clearly in the technical annexe, copies of which are available on the GOV.UK website.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

My Lords, are the Government taking into account the south-west in levelling up?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

It is very clear that the levelling-up mission involves levelling up both within and between communities. Of course, it takes into account that there is great disparity within parts of the south-west of this country.

[Lord Whitty (Lab)]

My Lords, does the range of metrics to which the Minister has referred include disparities within areas? It is no use levelling up Yorkshire by taking resources away from the poorest in London, or levelling up Cornwall by taking them away from the poorest in Hampshire.

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

As I said in response to the previous question, of course there are great disparities—within Greater London, for instance, never mind within Yorkshire. We must level up between and within communities; the metrics pick up that regional and local disparity.

[Lord McLoughlin (Con)]

When the Government are reviewing their progress on levelling up, how will they ensure that the budgets and funds allocated are spent in the way desired in the White Paper?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

As well as the metrics, within the technical annexe there is a clear plan for how to achieve what is set out in the White Paper. All of that will then be enshrined in law in the Levelling-up and Regeneration Bill.

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

My Lords, an IPPR report recently found that with their cuts to council funding, the Government have taken £431 from every single person and handed back just £31 in their levelling-up funds. Does the Minister accept that the Government can meet their levelling-up tests only by working with, and properly funding, local government?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

Local government has a critical part to play in levelling up the country. I would point out the commitment through both the UK shared prosperity fund and the levelling-up funds to turbocharge the 12 missions outlined in the Bill.

[Baroness Thornhill (LD)]

I am particularly interested in the aspirations around housing that are implicit throughout the levelling-up agenda. Given the northern consortium’s recent report on the fact that it is actually the quality of existing homes in the north that is a key factor in poverty and other indicators, what plans do the Government have, besides building brand new houses, to look after the existing stock that is in poor condition?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

It is important that we think about our existing stock. As Building Safety Minister, I think that the quality of housing is incredibly important. One of the key headline metrics is the proportion of non-decent rented homes and ensuring that we continue to drive this down and increase the number of homes that have achieved the decent homes standard, which will be adopted within the private rented sector as well.

[Baroness Boycott (CB)]

My Lords, do the Government think that it is an appropriate part of levelling up to postpone the ban on two-for-one HFSS foods in supermarkets and delay the advertising ban during children’s television? This morning, Cancer Research published data showing that 50% of adults in this country will be obese by 2025. As other noble Lords have pointed out, the disparity between rich and poor in terms of living with good health is now 17 years. That is a burden not just to them but to us and the taxpayer. Could the Minister therefore please explain to the House why the Government have taken this decision to make bad food cheaper, rather than subsidising healthy food to make it more accessible to people on a budget?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, I think it is for one of my colleagues to explain that decision, but it is clear that the healthy life expectancy metric—to increase it by some five years by 2030—remains, and the Government need to do all they can to achieve that.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

Does the Minister not agree that, whatever the metrics are, the major decisions as far as England is concerned will still be made in Whitehall? Is it not necessary to give to the regions of England real powers over transport and economic development, and all the administrative powers that Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland have? Until the decisions are made in regional centres, there will be no real levelling up.

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

As someone who spent 16 years in local government, I am obviously a great fan of devolution. But it is very clear that, by 2030, every part of the United Kingdom that wants a devolution deal with powers will be offered one. That will be the highest level of devolution we have ever had in this country, and that is certainly a step forward.

[Lord Newby (LD)]

My Lords, I am very pleased to hear what the Minister has just said about every region getting the degree of devolution that it requires. The noble Lord will be aware of the One Yorkshire committee, of which the leaders of Conservative councils in Yorkshire are members. All of them believe that there should be a single devolved authority for the whole of the great county of Yorkshire. Does the Minister concur with that ambition?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

I know that there is a strong Yorkshire lobby here. When I look at a map of Yorkshire, I see that it seems to have engulfed most of the north of England these days. But we are devolving into parts of Yorkshire, essentially, with strong mayoral figures. I am sure that they have opportunities to collaborate with their fellow Yorkshire colleagues. But I think that we have moved on from the one Yorkshire idea.

[Lord Lexden (Con)]

Since he is a strong supporter of devolution, will my noble friend tell the House how our fellow country men and women in Northern Ireland will benefit from this process? How much money are the Government allocating to Northern Ireland and what will the results be? I declare my interest as a fervent supporter of the union.

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

The Northern Ireland Executive will receive a funding boost of some £1.6 billion per year. These are the highest annual funding settlement increases for devolved Administrations since devolution began in 1998.

Building Safety Bill

Lord Greenhalgh Excerpts

Consideration of Commons amendments
Tuesday 26th April 2022 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Greenhalgh]

That this House do not insist on its Amendment 6 and do agree with the Commons in their Amendment 6A in lieu.

6A: Page 11, line 7, at end insert the following new Clause—
“Report on certain safety-related matters
(1) Before the end of the period of three years beginning when this section comes into force, the regulator must—
(a) carry out a cost-benefit analysis of making regular inspections of, and testing and reporting on, the condition of electrical installations in relevant buildings;
(b) consider what further provision under the Building Act 1984, or in guidance under that Act, may be made about—
(i) stairs and ramps in relevant buildings,
(ii) emergency egress of disabled persons from relevant buildings, and
(iii) automatic water fire suppression systems in relevant buildings, with a view to improving the safety of persons in or about relevant buildings, and carry out a cost-benefit analysis of the making of that provision.
(2) Before the end of that period, the regulator must—
(a) prepare one or more reports about the analysis mentioned in subsection (1) (which may also contain recommendations), and
(b) give them to the Secretary of State.
(3) The Secretary of State must publish any report received under subsection (2).
(4) In this section “cost-benefit analysis” means—
(a) an analysis of the costs together with an analysis of the benefits that will arise if the things mentioned in subsection (1)(a) are done or the provision mentioned in subsection (1)(b) is made, and
(b) an estimate of those costs and of those benefits (subject to subsection (5)).
(5) If, in the opinion of the regulator—
(a) the costs or benefits cannot reasonably be estimated, or
(b) it is not reasonably practicable to produce an estimate, the cost-benefit analysis need not estimate them, but must include a statement of the regulator’s opinion and an explanation of it.
(6) In this section—
“electrical installation” means fixed electrical cables or fixed electrical equipment located on the consumer’s side of the electricity supply meter;
“relevant building” means a residential building or any other kind of building that the regulator considers appropriate.”

[The Minister of State, Home Office and Department for Levelling Up, Housing & Communities (Lord Greenhalgh) (Con)]

My Lords, with the leave of the House, I will also speak to Motions B to H.

Here we are again: debating this landmark Bill which will bring forward the biggest changes to building safety legislation in our history. I will turn quickly to the outstanding non-government amendments. Noble Lords, led by the dynamic duo, my noble friends Lord Young of Cookham and Lord Blencathra, extended the definition of “relevant building” to buildings of all heights containing two or more dwellings. As the Government have said on many occasions, we must restore proportionality to the system. That is why we cannot agree to extend leaseholder protections to include buildings under 11 metres. As I have said repeatedly, there is no systemic risk of fire for buildings below 11 metres. Such buildings are extremely unlikely to need costly remediation to make them safe. Despite research and lobbying from a number of areas, the department has been made aware of only a handful of low-rise buildings where freeholders have been commissioning such work, and even fewer where that work was actually based on a proper assessment in line with the PAS 9980 principles.

My right honourable friend the Minister for Housing was clear that leaseholders in buildings below 11 metres should write to my department should they find that their freeholder or landlord is commissioning costly remediation works. I have already intervened directly with building owners and landlords to challenge freeholders, such as in Mill Court, and will continue to do so. Your Lordships can be assured that I will bring my full weight to bear where landlords are looking to carry out works that are not needed or justified. However, given the very small number of buildings involved, it is not appropriate to take forward a blanket legislative intervention and bring hundreds of thousands more buildings into scope. I must point out to noble Lords that doing this could backfire, sending mixed signals and encouraging the market to take an overly risk-averse approach to this class of buildings.

Turning to leaseholder-owned—or collectively enfranchised and commonhold—buildings, the Government’s original proposals included an exemption from the leaseholder protection provisions for leaseholder-owned buildings: those in which the leaseholders have collectively enfranchised, and those which are on commonhold land. Noble Lords agreed an amendment in the names of my noble friends Lord Young and Lord Blencathra—the dynamic duo again—and the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, to remove that exemption.

Those noble Lords will know that I have a great deal of sympathy with their position. I know that the amendment is well-intentioned and driven by a desire to protect these leaseholders, and the Government share those aims. However, as I said on Report, these amendments will not have the intended effect of protecting leaseholders living in those buildings. Those leaseholders who have enfranchised would still have to pay, but in their capacity as owners of the freehold rather than as leaseholders. Worse, where some leaseholders have enfranchised and others have not, the enfranchised leaseholders would have to pay for remediation of the whole building in their capacity as owners of the freehold, including the share of remediation costs that would otherwise have been recoverable from those leaseholders who have not enfranchised, once they have paid up to the cap. This would create the perverse situation where the leaseholder protections result in an increase in liability for those leaseholders who have chosen to collectively enfranchise. That is why the other place agreed to reinstate the exemption for leaseholder-owned buildings. My right honourable friend the Minister for Housing announced last Wednesday that the Government would consult on how best leaseholders in collectively enfranchised and commonhold buildings can be protected from the costs associated with historical building safety defects to the extent as all leaseholders.

Turning finally to the qualifying leaseholder contribution caps, the Government proposed that lease- holders’ contributions should be capped at £10,000, or £15,000 in Greater London. We believe that this approach protects leaseholders, while ensuring that work to remediate buildings can get under way. Noble Lords agreed with the amendment of the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, to reduce that cap on contributions to zero.

I will not repeat all of the Government’s arguments here, but I want to remind Peers of just how far the Government have come. Leaseholders are fully protected from costs associated with the removal of unsafe cladding. On non-cladding defects, where a developer has signed up to our developer pledge—that is more than 35 developers—they will fix non-cladding defects, as well as cladding defects, in their own buildings, and these leaseholders will pay nothing. If a building owner is, or is linked to, the developer, that building owner will be liable for the costs associated with non-cladding defects, and their leaseholders will pay nothing. If the building owner or landlord is not linked to the developer but has the wealth to meet the non-cladding costs in full, their leaseholders will pay nothing. If a leasehold property is valued at less than £175,000, or £325,000 in London, the leaseholder will pay nothing, and, if the leaseholder has already contributed up to the cap, they will pay nothing. Based on this approach, the Government’s assessment is that the vast majority of leaseholders will pay less than the caps, and many will pay nothing at all.

In relation to safety checks, noble Lords agreed to an amendment that requires the new building safety regulator to look at a number of important safety matters. We have consulted with the HSE and are happy to confirm that we fully accept the principle of this amendment, and the building safety regulator will be happy to take forward these safety reviews. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Stunell, for his passionate advocacy in this area. The Government therefore proposed an alternate version of this proposal, which was agreed in the other place. I hope noble Lords will agree that this provides clearer drafting and a more practical and pragmatic approach. Importantly, we have increased the time available to the regulator from two years to three years. This reflects the time needed for the regulator to develop the capacity to carry out these reviews alongside all its other functions. We have also made a number of technical improvements to the Bill, and I am happy to answer questions while summing up.

[Lord Stunell (LD)]

My Lords, as the person who has just had his name mentioned, I will start my very brief contribution by saying that there will be noble Lords who have a lot of criticism of what has come back from the Commons, but I am not one of them in respect of Amendment 6A. I am very pleased to see that the Government have responded well to the views that were very strongly expressed by Members of your Lordships’ House on all sides on the importance of tackling these issues. The Minister has come back with an amendment that is longer than the one that we tabled, and he has come back with a period of time that is longer than the one that we suggested. I am delighted with the first, which shows that he has better drafters than I had at my disposal, but I am not so happy about the three years.

However, it is going to be a major step forward if we get these issues of fire suppression, stairways and ramps, electrical equipment and safety, and provision for people with disabilities properly examined and costed, with the regulations coming in front of the House and in front of the Secretary of State. Even if it takes three years, it will be a significant step forward, and I am very pleased indeed to see that it is included in this Bill.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Pinnock (LD)]

My Lords, it is good to recognise that the Bill has indeed been transformed during its passage through Parliament, but the major transformation point was initiated by the Secretary of State, Michael Gove, when he said that

“leaseholders are shouldering a desperately unfair burden. They are blameless, and it is morally wrong that they should be the ones asked to pay the price.”—[Official Report, Commons, 10/1/22; col. 283.]

I agree, as many others across the House will. Unfortunately, however, the Bill currently does expect some leaseholders to pay. My colleagues and I are asking the Government today to think again.

The Government argue that Article 1 of Protocol 1 of the European Convention on Human Rights ensures a balance of rights between property owners and leaseholders, which in their view means that leaseholders have to pay towards the costs. That is the basis of the Government’s argument for the cap of £10,000 and £15,000. However, that view was comprehensively challenged by my noble friend Lord Marks, whose argument was endorsed fully by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope of Craighead, on Report. Senior legal minds in this House agree that it is possible within the ECHR for innocent leaseholders to pay nothing.

This legitimately opens up the opportunity, which must be grasped, for the Government to accept that leaseholders must not pay a penny whatever the height of the building, hence Motion D1 in my name to include buildings under 11 metres so that leaseholders in those buildings do not pay. As the noble Lord, Lord Young of Cookham, rightly reminded us, a building under 11 metres has been destroyed by fire in under 11 minutes. We really need to think again about those buildings under 11 metres. However, I thank the Minister for the assurances he has given to those leaseholders in buildings under 11 metres at the Dispatch Box today and for urging them to get directly in contact with him if they get any invoices for remediation works. I am sure I will be holding him to account on that one, as will the leaseholders, and I am sure they will get in touch with us across the House to make sure that they do not pay. They must not.

What I do know is that the Government need to think again about the leaseholder cap. My Motion H2 reduces the cap back to zero, where it should be. I remind the House of the commitment by Secretary of State Michael Gove that leaseholders should not be paying the cost incurred as the result of the sometimes deliberate actions of others. The Minister himself has acknowledged tonight that some leaseholders will still pay, when we agreed in January at the very start of this great transformation that they are blameless and it is morally wrong that they should have to be the ones to pay the price. We have looked after many leaseholders but not all.

Obduracy in the face of moral right is a failure of political leadership. We on the Liberal Democrat Benches will support the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman of Ullock, in her Motion H1 to achieve a degree of improvement to the lot of leaseholders, who have shouldered the burden of anxiety and fear for too long and whose campaigning efforts have achieved so much.

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, I must thank noble Lords for their contributions to this debate. I am not sure; maybe we are close to that point where we can say, “One more heave”. I want quickly to turn to Amendment 94 and Motion D1, the amendment of the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, to the Government’s Motion D, where she disagrees with the Government. I explained in my opening speech the reasoning behind our Amendment 94A and I do not propose to repeat my arguments. I simply remind noble Lords that the approach the Government have proposed is sensible. Setting the threshold at 11 metres will help restore proportionality to the system, as also argued by my noble friend Lady Neville-Rolfe, and the Government have committed to consult on how best leaseholders in collectively enfranchised and commonhold buildings can be protected. On timescales, in response to my noble friend, I think we said “soon”. I shall strengthen that and say “as soon as possible”. That is a big concession.

I turn to Motion H1 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, as an amendment to the Government’s Motion H. It would replace a zero cap in a previous amendment with £250 for leaseholder contributions, while Motion H2 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, disagrees with the Government’s caps.

Motion H1 would make changes to the leaseholder contribution caps in Schedule 8 and reduce them to £250, up from the zero cap in her previous amendment. Motion H2 disagrees with the Government’s Motion and would return the caps to zero. As I said in my opening speech, the Government have been clear that setting the leaseholder contribution caps to zero or to a nominal level, such as £250 or £25 a year for 10 years, would not be a proportionate approach. I reiterate the Government’s commitment to protecting leaseholders. Indeed, it is hard to overstate how far-reaching our proposed protections are. They represent a hugely significant and robust improvement on the existing position for leaseholders.

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Lord Greenhalgh]

That this House do agree with the Commons in their Amendment 78A.

78A: Clause 114, page 119, leave out lines 14 and 15.

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Lord Greenhalgh]

That this House do agree with the Commons in their Amendments 93A and 93B.

93A: Line 13, leave out “under qualifying leases”

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Lord Greenhalgh]

That this House do agree with the Commons in their Amendment 94A.

94A: Line 7, at end insert “and—
(a) is at least 11 metres high, or
(b) has at least 5 storeys.
This is subject to subsection (2A).
“Relevant building” does not include a self-contained building or self- contained part of a building—
(a) in relation to which a right under Part 1 of the Landlord and Tenant Act 1987 (tenants’ right of first refusal) or Part 3 of that Act (compulsory acquisition by tenants of landlord’s interest) has been exercised,
(b) in relation to which the right to collective enfranchisement (within the meaning of Chapter 1 of Part 1 of the Leasehold Reform, Housing and Urban Development Act 1993) has been exercised,
(c) if the freehold estate in the building or part of the building is leaseholder owned (within the meaning of regulations made by the Secretary of State), or
(d) which is on commonhold land.”

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Lord Greenhalgh]

That this House do agree with the Commons in their Amendments 98A, 98B and 98C.

98A: Line 6, leave out “(2)” and insert “(1A)”

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Lord Greenhalgh]

That this House do agree with the Commons in their Amendments 107A, 108A, 109A and 109B.

107A: Line 17, leave out “an associate of” and insert “associated with”

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Lord Greenhalgh]

That this House do agree with the Commons in their Amendment 145A.

145A: Line 1, leave out “4,”

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Lord Greenhalgh]

That this House do agree with the Commons in their Amendments 184A, 184B, 184D and 184D.

184A: In paragraph 2(4) of that Schedule, in the definition of “relevant landlord” after “lease” insert “at the qualifying time”

South-west of England: Levelling up

Lord Greenhalgh Excerpts

Thursday 7th April 2022 Grand Committee

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

I congratulate Bishop Robert—the right reverend Prelate—on securing this debate, which is really important. I absolutely agree with his theme that we think so much about the levelling-up agenda as being north versus south—or, indeed, on occasions, as has been shown factually in terms of government funding programmes over the years, urban versus rural. Of course, the south-west is important in its rural population and its rural contribution culturally and economically.

If noble Lords will forgive me, I will talk mainly about Cornwall and the Isles of Scilly, and the shared prosperity fund. What I say is not a criticism of the Government; one of the things I want to succeed is the shared prosperity fund. There are a number of questions here that I will go through and I would be happy to have those answered subsequent to the debate rather than necessarily here today.

Nearly everything that I talk about will also be relevant to the rest of the greater south-west. It is perhaps symbolic that all the speakers in this debate are lined up on the same side of the argument, apart from the Minister—

[The Minister of State, Home Office and Department for Levelling Up, Housing & Communities (Lord Greenhalgh) (Con)]

We have someone here who was leader of Wiltshire County Council for 16 years. Take that one away.

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

I apologise. But we have a unity here.

In Cornwall, our earnings are some 20%—one-fifth—less than the national average. Our GDP is 30% less than the national average. It is interesting that if you look at the contours of productivity, as you move further south-west, productivity goes down significantly east to west. Is that inevitable? I look across to the Republic of Ireland, which used to be one of the tigers of the European economy. It is still more affluent than many parts of the UK. That remoteness is not something that we should take for granted; actually, it causes those differences. Of course, exactly as the right reverend Prelate said, house prices go in the opposite direction. They are high and largely unaffordable for the resident population.

We are still unclear how the shared prosperity fund will operate. We have a framework there. We understand it is going to be £2.6 billion over three years. The promise by the Government—certainly the Prime Minister—has been that the funding that Cornwall and the Isles of Scilly had under European programmes will be replicated. I ask for confirmation that, in that first period of three years, Cornwall and the Isles of Scilly will have something like £300 million in funding, and that over the seven years—it was a seven-year programme in European days—it will be something like £700 million.

One of the positives about seven-year programmes was that you could plan over that time. Three years is a lot more difficult. Perhaps we could have an assurance that we will not have a programme that starts late and has to spend by the end of year 3, meaning that those projects are short-term and not optimal. I think the Minister would understand that issue.

I also understand that the programmes will be primarily revenue-based. Yet when we come to productivity—I will say more on this later—yes, it is around skills, which I will also come on to, but it is also around investment. A lot of that needs to be capital expenditure rather than just revenue. Will the Government recognise that as that programme proceeds?

I also understand that in the first year 20% of the funding for shared prosperity will go towards a fund called Multiply, which is all about adult numeracy and language. Excellent though that is, it means that there will not be any skills element in the first year, meaning there is a gap between the ESF programmes we have at the moment and skills-based programmes we might have in future after the first year.

One of the great frustrations of European funding was that it took two years to agree the programmes between local authorities, Whitehall and Brussels. It is absolutely essential that these programmes start on time. They need to be agreed and then roll out as soon as the money is available on projects that are not too short term. I ask the Minister: will there be flexibility for the whole south-west—whether Cornwall, Devon or Dorset—as it understands its own needs best? Will that delegation of decision-making downwards, which was sometimes also absent in European programmes, be improved?

Lastly, I want to talk about productivity for 15 seconds. This is a practical thing. Whenever companies I know have applied for European funding in the past it has all been “Jobs, jobs, jobs”. The problem is not jobs; the problem is productivity, careers and decently paid jobs. I ask the Minister that, when people have to fill forms out, they are not just around jobs; they are around productivity and quality. We as the south-west and as Cornwall want to contribute to the rest of the United Kingdom. Please let us do so.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, I too congratulate the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Exeter on securing this debate. He was known as Robert Atwell when he was chaplain during my early years as an undergraduate. He looked a lot younger then—but then, so did I. I used to row, which you cannot believe, given the physique I have now. He said, “You got on the first boat, in your first term!” As a Roman Catholic, he got me into the chapel and made it very much part of college life. That is what he has brought to his current job. He really cares about his region, and it comes through palpably. He has raised a lot of very important issues.

I take issue with the idea that the Government do not have the credentials to speak for the south-west. Here today we have the noble Lord, Lord Khan of Burnley, a former cabinet member for Burnley. We also have with us a very distinguished leader for six years of Somerset County Council, which is a pretty good innings for the Liberal Democrats. But the Government Whip here has been—

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

I said that the speakers were on this side. I was not in any way—

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

Fair enough, but the Government Whip here, my noble friend Lady Scott of Bybrook, was for 16 years—not just six—leader of Wiltshire Council.

[A noble Lord]

I have lived there for 60 years.

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

That is living there; this is leading a council for 16 years. I managed six, which is in itself an achievement. The knowledge, the experience and the drive that it takes to lead a council for 16 years is here supporting me. What is more, I have covering fire from my noble friend Lord Whitby, who represents the great Birmingham City Council, which he led with great distinction for many years—

[Lord Whitby (Con)]

Nine years—

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

There you go; on this side of the House we have real experience. I want to deal with the accusation from the noble Lord, Lord Khan, that there is no money and no power. Let us deal with the money first and the power second.

On commitment to the south-west and the money currently being spent, these are staggering sums. There is an initial £131 million investment through round one of the levelling-up fund—that is money. The towns fund is investing £198 million across nine towns in the south-west—that is money. Eleven places in the south-west have received over £138.5 million of funding through the future high streets fund—that is money. The noble Lord should recognise that that is money. There is £92.6 million allocated to the south-west through the getting building fund—that is money. In 2017, the West of England Combined Authority agreed a devolution deal worth over £900 million in investment in the area over 13 years—that is money.

Let us think about the future, because now we are talking about real power: devolution and devolution deals. I know that a number will come to the surface in the next few years in the south-west, devolving real power away to the south-west. That is the power that follows the money.

I want to deal specifically with the right reverend Prelate’s issues; since he secured the debate, I should address most of my remarks to them. He talked about the capacity for innovation. One of the things I learnt in preparation for this debate is that we are increasing public R&D investment to £20 billion by 2024-25. Of this, at least 55% will go to places outside London and the south-east, helping those places to develop competitive advantages. Obviously, I hope that much of that goes to the south-west. There is a lot of money there to deal with the deprivation that the right reverend Prelate has outlined. Certainly, the south-west has benefited from £303 million of Innovate UK funding since 2008. We continue to see R&D investment, which can only get bigger, going to the south-west.

The right reverend Prelate is also a great champion on issues of rural and coastal deprivation. He asked a couple specific questions about whether targeted interventions reach the rural hinterland. The Government will publish the second report on rural proofing in England this spring—imminently. It will set out how government departments are working to support levelling up in rural areas through targeted approaches where needed, and how we are strengthening the rural economies. More on that anon.

On connectivity and the patchy provision of rural services, last week the Government announced a further £32 million of funding to protect the crucial Dawlish rail link in Devon. This is part of £155 million to level up investments between communities in the south-west.

The noble Lord, Lord Teverson, wanted to know about the UK shared prosperity fund. It is a good question, but he will just have to wait a bit. The prospectus will be published imminently, but I take the point about having time to plan and having flexibility. As a former local leader myself, I completely agree with those principles, and they are points well made.

The noble Lord, Lord Teverson, who I think is a distinguished former Member of the European Parliament, also wanted to know whether EU funding levels will be matched for Cornwall and the Isles of Scilly. I have been told that the Government will match current EU funding levels in Cornwall and the Isles of Scilly and will publish details of allocations in due course. There is some information for the noble Lord that I think is positive.

Will there be flexibility? I think I have answered that. Let us get the detail about that on the table in future.

It is important to recognise that the Government set out an ambition that takes us to 2030, along with some clear missions, and through the spending review they have been driving the spending around those missions. They will measure those and publish an annual report, but I thank the right reverend Prelate for once again making us realise that it is not a north/south issue or a rural/urban issue: there is deprivation and issues that need to be tackled throughout all four nations of this great United Kingdom.

The Church plays an incredibly important role, particularly in education, and I recognise that. The right reverend Prelate mentioned the diocesan schools. In my patch, Hammersmith and Fulham, we have wonderful voluntary aided schools that provide first-class opportunities within the maintained sector for young people to get on in life. Long may that continue.

This has been a great debate. There is a lot to be said for the south-west—but you would never know it, listening to the noble Lord, Lord Khan.

Building Safety Bill

Lord Greenhalgh Excerpts

3rd reading
Monday 4th April 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ashton of Hyde (Con)]

My Lords, I have it in command from Her Majesty the Queen and His Royal Highness the Prince of Wales to acquaint the House that they, having been informed of the purport of the Building Safety Bill, have consented to place their interests, so far as they are affected by the Bill, at the disposal of Parliament for the purposes of the Bill.

[The Minister of State, Home Office and Department for Levelling Up, Housing & Communities (Lord Greenhalgh) (Con)]

My Lords, a significant number of the provisions in the Building Safety Bill apply to England and Wales and a number also apply to Scotland and/or Northern Ireland. Throughout the preparation and passage of the Bill we have been working closely with each of the devolved Administrations, and I pay tribute to officials and Ministers in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland for their constructive engagement and support.

There are provisions in the Bill which engage the legislative consent process in the Scottish Parliament, Senedd Cymru and the Northern Ireland Assembly. I am pleased to report that the Senedd and the Scottish Parliament have granted legislative consent. However, the Northern Ireland Executive have not brought forward a legislative consent memorandum and the Assembly has therefore not voted on legislative consent. I reassure noble Lords that the Government will continue to engage with the Northern Ireland Executive.

Schedule 8: Remediation costs under qualifying leases etc

Amendment 1

Moved by

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Moved by

[Lord Greenhalgh]

That the Bill do now pass.

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, the Grenfell Tower tragedy resulted in the largest loss of life in a residential fire since the Second World War. On 14 June 2017, 72 people died and 70 more were injured. This was the deadliest structural fire in the United Kingdom since Piper Alpha in 1988. The Government are determined to ensure that a tragedy such as this never happens again. The Building Safety Bill is the landmark Bill that delivers on that mission.

These are the biggest changes to building safety legislation in our history. The Bill not only addresses the total building safety regulatory system failure head-on but protects leaseholders who are the victims in a building safety crisis. This Bill helps to ensure that there is a more proportionate approach to building safety risk, introduces a cap on the historic building safety costs that leaseholders will have to pay and, finally, provides an extensive set of tools in law that will ensure that the polluter pays.

Fifteen of the 37 disabled residents living in Grenfell Tower died in the fire. That is more than 40% of the disabled residents. The Government are committed to supporting the fire safety of disabled and vulnerable residents. We are acutely aware of the need to ensure the safety of residents with mobility concerns. The Government ran a consultation on the issue of personal emergency evacuation plans—PEEPs—in July 2021. The consultation has made clear the substantial difficulties of mandating PEEPs in high-rise residential buildings around practicality, proportionality and safety. On practicality, how can you evacuate a mobility-impaired person from a tall building before the professionals from the fire and rescue service arrive? On proportionality, how much is it reasonable to spend to do this at the same time as we seek to protect residents and taxpayers from excessive costs? On safety, how can you ensure that an evacuation of mobility-impaired people is carried out in a way that does not hinder others in evacuating or the fire and service in fighting the fire?

Given these difficulties, the Government are committing to undertake a new consultation. While our response is still being finalised, this will include a proposal called “emergency evacuation information-sharing” or EEIS. The Government will publish our response to the PEEPs consultation and our new consultation on EEIS and commence the Fire Safety Act 2021 on the same day next month, which is as soon as practical after the pre-election period. I have discussed this at some length with the noble Baronesses, Lady Grey-Thompson and Lady Brinton. I confirm to the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, that the consultation will look to ensure as best we can that the golden thread exists between planning for the safe evacuation of a mobility-impaired person when needed and the response of fire and rescue services in the event that a building needs to be evacuated.

The Building Safety Bill leaves your Lordships’ House in a far better state than it arrived in. I welcome the clear cross-party support for the Bill. Both Opposition Benches have played hard but fair. I thank the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, for using his considerable professional expertise and the noble Baronesses, Lady Jolly and Lady Finlay of Llandaff, for their redoubtable efforts with the Safer Stairs campaign. I also thank the noble Baroness, Lady Fox of Buckley, for ensuring that the new regime is as proportionate as possible. Finally, I thank the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of St Albans for helping improve the Bill in the interests of leaseholders.

On the Government Benches, I thank my noble friend Lord Naseby for representing the interests of pensioners with pensions tied up in buy-to-let leasehold properties, my noble friend Lady Sanderson for ensuring that the voice of the Grenfell community is heard loud and clear, and last but by no means least, the dynamic duo of my noble friends Lord Young and Lord Blencathra, who have brought decades of parliamentary experience to ensure that leaseholders are protected. I also thank my long-suffering Whip, my noble friend Lady Scott, and her understudy briefly on Report, my noble friend Lady Bloomfield. My heartfelt thanks also go to Hannah Ellis in the Whips’ Office.

Finally, I thank the army of officials in the Department for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities, the Home Office and across government for their support and hard work over the last few months. I will name four who deserve special mention: the former Bill manager, Amy Payne, the current Bill manager, Catherine Canning, and the superb DHLUC government lawyers, Joanna Stewart and Katherine Bridges.

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Haskel) (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, is taking part remotely. I invite the noble Baroness to speak.

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[Baroness Pinnock (LD)]

My Lords, I start by thanking the cladding and building safety campaigners who have been resolute and unremitting, since the Grenfell fire tragedy, in pursuing justice for leaseholders and tenants. Without them, this Bill would not be in the shape it is today. It has been transformed but not transformed enough, as we have heard from others. Across the House, people have worked together to make it a better Bill. I thank them for the way we have worked together to make improvements, but it is not yet enough.

I, too, urge the Government to accept the amendments that we accepted on Report. I, for one, am not giving way. I hope that the Government, at the other end, will say that the argument has been made for a nil cost to all leaseholders. That is where I shall firmly stand to the bitter end. Leaseholders are the innocent victims; they must not pay a penny.

I pass on my thanks to the Minister for being so free with his time, discussing the various amendments, and to the officials from various parts of the Government for explaining the detailed changes that had been proposed. Particularly, I thank Sarah Pughe in the Liberal Democrat Whips’ Office, and my noble friend Lord Stunell. Without their expertise, knowledge and experience, we would not have been able to do the job that, between us, we have done. I look forward to the Bill coming back, having been accepted by the Commons.

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, I beg the indulgence of noble Lords: as my noble friend Lord Young and the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, asked pretty much the same question, I thought I would respond to that very briefly. They wanted to know what happens to orphan buildings, where there is no polluter to pay. I do not feel that this works in this setting, but I have this wonderful diagram that makes it pretty clear to me what happens. This is the so-called “non-cladding costs waterfall”, which I am going to try to have put on the Government’s website. Let us be very clear: we need to look at this in terms of cladding and non-cladding.

There is, of course, the £5.1 billion building safety fund for the remediation of cladding in high-rise residential buildings, which is open to orphan buildings. My department is seeking a further £4 billion voluntary contribution. In the first instance, it is a voluntary contribution from the developers for the remediation of unsafe cladding in medium-rise buildings, which is also open to orphan buildings. Then, we have this wonderful government waterfall for non-cladding costs: the developers must pay. In instances where the developer is not available to pay, the landlord must pay. The landlord or freeholders who pass the government test, which is a net worth of £2 million per building, become legally liable for all the costs. The landlords must comply with the law, as set out by Parliament. Freeholders or landlords must pursue those responsible, as well as any applicable grant schemes, before they can pass costs on.

Finally, as it says on this wonderful chart, which even I can read with my poor eyesight, costs are shared equitably between freeholders, lessees and leaseholders, subject to robust leaseholder protections detailed in the Bill—and sent back to the other place with some other parameters that perhaps the Government might not have wanted at this stage.

I want to make a final point about landlords. Sadly, some landlords are polluters. A number of large freeholders have appeared on the Government’s “name and shame” list for not remediating their buildings. Some freeholders or landlords have gone so far as to force leaseholders to take loans to remediate their buildings. As I said, we all agree that, in those instances, the polluter must pay.

Bill passed and returned to the Commons with amendments.

Local Government (Disqualification) Bill

Lord Greenhalgh Excerpts

3rd reading
Friday 1st April 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

My Lords, we welcome this legislation. I pay tribute to Sir Paul Beresford for promoting it in the other place and to the noble Lord, Lord Udny-Lister, for sponsoring it here. It is a small but important piece of legislation and we very much welcome it.

[The Minister of State, Home Office and Department for Levelling Up, Housing & Communities (Lord Greenhalgh) (Con)]

My Lords, I want to add the Government’s support. I once again thank my noble friend—and my political mentor in many ways in local government—for all his work in sponsoring this Private Member’s Bill. I pay tribute also to the Member for Mole Valley, Sir Paul Beresford, for taking the Bill through the ballot and for the diligent work he has done. Obviously, the Government fully support the Bill, which closes an important loophole.

Bill passed.

Housebuilding: Target

Lord Greenhalgh Excerpts

Wednesday 30th March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Young of Cookham]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what progress they have made towards meeting their target of building 300,000 homes a year.

[The Minister of State, Home Office and Department for Levelling Up, Housing & Communities (Lord Greenhalgh) (Con)]

From April 2019 to March 2020, more than 242,000 homes were delivered—the highest level for over 30 years. Despite the pandemic, we enabled construction sites to stay open, allowing us to deliver more than 216,000 homes in England in 2020-21, well above the 186,500 forecast for the whole of the UK.

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

I am grateful to my noble friend, but is he aware that the House of Lords Built Environment Committee has warned the Government that they will miss their targets by about half over the period of time in question? In order to catch up, will my noble friend consider greatly accelerating the number of homes built off-site, using modular construction? These are quicker, built to a higher quality and less susceptible to the weather than traditional methods. Within that, will he consider more homes for the elderly, which are in short supply, so that those who want to can downsize, freeing up their homes for families?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My noble friend has extensive experience of housing. The department recognises the importance of modern methods of construction, both volumetric and non-volumetric as well as those designed for manufacture and assembly, and we have a target within the affordable homes programme of delivering around 25% through these methods. Obviously, we recognise the need for housing of all types and tenures, and both supported and private housing for the elderly, and retirement communities are a very important part of getting the built environment right.

[Lord Carrington (CB)]

My Lords, in order to maximise the funding for the building of affordable housing, there is a need to bring in willing and able institutional investors. However, the Government must create a level playing field in terms of the tax positions and grant agreements between housing associations and institutional investors to encourage much-needed collaboration between the two. Please could the Minister comment on this and other measures to attract private investment?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, I recognise the important role that registered providers have played in building affordable housing but also note that, increasingly, councils are building council homes again, which is a good thing. We will look at whatever it takes to remove those barriers to enable people who are building affordable housing to access institutional investment.

[The Lord Speaker (Lord McFall of Alcluith)]

My Lords, we have a virtual contribution from the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton.

[Baroness Brinton (LD) [V]]

My Lords, research by Habinteg has shown that the lifetime homes standard—that is, part M4 category 2—costs only £1,000 extra on new build, reducing the need for expensive adaptations later in life and keeping people independent. The LGA says that, at the current rate of housebuilding, it will take 2,000 years to achieve this standard. Worse, under 2% of new housing is required to be built to category 3, for wheelchair users, when a minimum of 10% is needed. How many units that meet category 2 and 3 have been built in the past five years?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, I cannot give that particular statistic; what I can say is that we recognise the importance of getting these standards right. We have consulted very recently on options to raise the accessibility of new homes and we continue to focus on ensuring that we have homes that work for people of all ages and are suitable for older and disabled people.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

My Lords—

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[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

Thank you. How many of the homes that have been built are net-zero carbon and, therefore, how many are left to be very expensively retrofitted for energy efficiency later?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, we seem to be going around every type of housing that we could possibly build, but it is very important to recognise that we have a future homes standard, that we have set that to be in place by 2025 and that we continue to build homes that are reducing our carbon footprint—and, actually, modern methods of construction are precisely the way to do it.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

My Lords, our Built Environment Committee report made it clear that, if the number of new homes is to be increased, improvements are needed in several areas of public policy, especially planning. More than half of all authorities have no local plans, with Slough the latest to drop its plan because of uncertainty. Will the Government do everything possible—there are examples in the report—to ensure that the defect is remedied and that we have homes of all tenures for everybody to live in?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for all the sterling work she does on the Built Environment Committee. I recognise that there is a problem around local plans. Indeed, it is the planning lawyers who point out that we need more robust timetabling again, to ensure that local authorities undertake their duties to have a plan to shape their areas.

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

My Lords, local authorities are crucial to meeting the Government’s housebuilding targets, but, if they are properly to master-plan and create the new communities that we need, they need new powers. So will the Minister support the reform of our arcane land compensation laws?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

I look at whatever it takes to support councils in being able to build and shape their areas. An increasing number of councils are doing precisely that. This Government have enabled councils to borrow more liberally against the housing revenue account, but we will look at whatever measures we can to encourage local authorities to take a leadership role.

[Lord Best (CB)]

My Lords, the skills shortage in the construction industry is set to be a major problem for years to come. A solution is to attract more women into this industry, since, as your Lordships’ Built Environment Committee points out, only 4% of the construction trade’s roles are held by women. Does the Minister agree that, when rejuvenating the failed apprenticeships scheme, it would be particularly helpful if a special effort was made to recruit apprentices who are women?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, of course we want to ensure that we get both men and women, and particularly women, involved in construction, but, as the Building Safety Minister, what I want to see above all is an increase in the quality and competence of the people who build our homes.

[Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, it is agreed that there is a national shortage of housing in this country. Although greeted as a laudable policy in the Thatcher years, the sale of council houses depleted the capacity of local authorities to provide much-needed housing during emergencies. Can the Minister tell the House what steps the Government are taking to encourage and assist all local authorities to increase the renewal of the socially provided housing stock in the immediate future?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

I can, because it is an unprecedented amount of money: £11.5 billion for the affordable homes programme. In this programme, more than double the number of homes, 180,000 homes, will be for social rent, and a great number will be for sub-market rent. So there is a real commitment in this Government to deliver housing of all types and tenures, and in particular socially rented housing.

[Viscount Waverley (CB)]

My Lords, are the Government mindful that noise is a great irritant? Should local authorities consider airport growth when determining their local housing needs and avoid approving development in the proximity of airports that may be impacted, in the future, by the current and future operations of that airport? As an example, North West Leicestershire District Council, as I understand it, has a number of proposals for housing around East Midlands Airport.

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, there is quite a lot of noise today, but what I will say in answer to the noble Viscount’s question is that local authorities need to think about how to develop their areas for the benefit of the local community. This obviously includes building homes, but in the right place, in the right way and going with the grain of the local area. Indeed, economic development is a fundamental part of local leadership.

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

My Lords, one of the recommendations of the built environment report referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Young—and I have the honour of serving on the committee under the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe—was that the Government should encourage more small builders to build houses, rather than having a smaller number of big developers. Small, local builders will bring more local employment and new ideas, and they will generally speed up the overall housing construction.

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[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

That is an incredibly good point, because the wider public sector counts for about a third of the money that is spent in the construction industry in any given year. We need to encourage small and medium-sized builders who are more innovative and bring new things with them, rather than simply the large-volume builders.

[Baroness Pinnock (LD)]

My Lords, I am sure that the Minister understands the difference between affordable housing and housing for social rent. In response to a previous question on social housing, the Minister’s answer was “Affordable”—which is not the same thing at all. So can the Minister help the House to understand, with construction costs soring and social housing dependent on government grants, whether the Government will increase the size of the grants so that more social housing can be built to meet the desperate need in this country?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, the House will be unsurprised to know that I do understand the difference between types and tenures of housing. What I said in response to a previous question was that we had pledged to build 32 socially rented homes, and that the amount in this current programme is double that of the previous programme. To be clear, I meant 32,000 and not 32—I must get my numbers right. There is a real commitment to build not only socially rented homes but the houses between that and outright home ownership.