Prime Minister: Meeting with First Ministers of the Devolved Governments
Lord Greenhalgh Excerpts(2 years, 5 months ago)
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Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
To ask Her Majesty’s Government when the Prime Minister next expects to meet with the First Ministers of the devolved governments; and what subjects are expected to be on the agenda.
The Minister of State, Home Office and Department for Levelling Up, Housing & Communities (Lord Greenhalgh) (Con)
My Lords, the new Prime Minister and heads of devolved Governments council commits to meeting at least annually as part of the Review of Intergovernmental Relations published in January. The inaugural council will meet to consider issues of strategic importance to the whole of the UK, and the Prime Minister may also engage with the First Ministers in other fora, as he did four times last year.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)
My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for his reply, but does he agree that devolution means that devolved authorities should be spending money only on the devolved areas and that any spending on reserved areas would be improper? Can the Government now consider monitoring the expenditure of the devolved authorities to ensure that they are not spending money on reserved areas, as the Scottish Government are? They are spending £20 million on the constitution, including employing civil servants to prepare for a referendum and for breaking up the United Kingdom. Should this not be on the agenda for the next meeting between the Prime Minister and the First Ministers?
Lord Greenhalgh (Con)
I take the point that the noble Lord has made on a number of occasions. It is clearly an important issue to maintain the union. The devolution settlement set out those responsibilities that fall within devolved and reserved competence. Scottish Ministers are accountable to their own legislature and electorate for their actions, including their expenditure decisions.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)
My Lords, on the subject of ministerial responsibility and competence, my noble friend answered a Written Question yesterday indicating that the Government had decided that they would not make the QEII Centre available, should this House need to move, as part of their levelling-up agenda. Does my noble friend not realise that this is a matter for this House and not for the Government, and that £10 million of taxpayers’ money has been spent on looking at the suitability of the QEII Centre? Who will pick up the tab for this PR stunt?
Lord Greenhalgh (Con)
Well, I was forewarned that the written response that I gave would not exactly be popular with Members on all sides of the House. All I can say is that it is not for my right honourable friend to determine where the House sits but, as someone who is responsible for the QEII Centre, he has ruled that out. I have outlined that in my written response.
Lord Wigley (PC)
My Lords, can the Minister confirm that when the Prime Minister next meets the First Minister of Wales, he will confirm the pledge that he made at the time of the Brexit referendum, that Wales will be fully reimbursed for every penny of EU regional and social funding lost as a consequence of that Brexit vote?
Lord Greenhalgh (Con)
There is a commitment to invest in Wales and we have seen so far, as part of the 2021 spending review, 20% more per person for the Welsh Government. I am sure that we will continue to honour those commitments.
Lord Cormack (Con)
My Lords, the Minister has not answered my noble friend Lord Forsyth’s question. Some £10.9 million of public money has been spent on the Queen Elizabeth II conference centre. It is completely wrong for that money to have been spent for the Government arbitrarily to make a decision that rules it out.
Lord Greenhalgh (Con)
All I can say in response is that I understand where the noble Lord is coming from. I realise there has been some expenditure, but my right honourable friend can determine whether he wishes to make the QEII available; it is for this House to decide its future. I will take away sentiments from all sides of the House.
Lord Morris of Aberavon (Lab)
My Lords, the devolved Governments are consulted on the effects of international treaties but, for reasons of confidentiality, the Government refuse to disclose the results of these consultations. The noble Lord, Lord Grimstone, told the International Agreements Committee on 27 April that he could “categorically” say that the devolved Governments were not “satisfied”. Will this matter be put on the agenda at any future ministerial meetings?
Lord Greenhalgh (Con)
I am not sure I can specifically answer that at the Dispatch Box, but there are now mechanisms, as part of the review of intergovernmental relations, to ensure we have the structures to take these points on board in the appropriate setting.
Baroness Humphreys (LD)
My Lords, I welcomed the demise of the Joint Ministerial Committee earlier this year. It was doomed to failure principally because it was rarely convened by the Prime Minister. What structures have been put in place to ensure that two of the main weaknesses of that system are addressed: so that the First Ministers meet with the PM, in the new intergovernmental forum, more regularly than once a year; and that all four nations are able to contribute issues to the agenda?
Lord Greenhalgh (Con)
There are structures. There is a commitment to one meeting a year for the council, as I said in my initial response, and we have 10 interministerial groups, the Interministerial Standing Committee and the Finance: Interministerial Standing Committee. The infrastructure is there, but we have to go with the spirit of the legislation, as machinery and structures are not enough.
Lord Bellingham (Con)
My Lords, when the Minister and the Prime Minister attend the council, will they remind the First Ministers of the extraordinary success of the Platinum Jubilee weekend and of the strength of the union?
Lord Greenhalgh (Con)
I am sure there will be every opportunity to point to the strength of the union. I think the Platinum Jubilee celebrations were an absolute triumph; my favourite was breakfast with Paddington Bear.
Lord Khan of Burnley (Lab)
My Lords, earlier this year, the UK Government published plans for the UK shared prosperity fund, which replaces the European Regional Development Fund and European Social Fund. Despite a previous pledge to match the size of former EU funding in each nation of the UK, the Government have clearly broken that promise for Wales, which is expecting a shortfall of £772 million. What discussions has the Prime Minister held with the Welsh Government over this? I believe the Welsh First Minister is here next Monday, celebrating 100 years of Welsh Labour. Maybe the Prime Minister and the First Minister can have those discussions while enjoying those celebrations.
Lord Greenhalgh (Con)
I am sure they will have those discussions but, as I said in a previous answer, 20% more has been spent on the Welsh Government per person, as part of the spending review 2021. In addition, the UK shared prosperity fund is going to deliver £2.6 billion spread across the country, with £585 million earmarked for Wales. That is a significant sum of money.
Lord Selkirk of Douglas (Con)
I served as an elected Member for the first eight years of the Scottish Parliament. Will the Government keep up a close working relationship with the Scottish Government? It is very much in the interests of the United Kingdom as a whole. Will he confirm that necessary relevant steps relating to security will be shared by both Governments?
Lord Greenhalgh (Con)
I am sure there is a commitment to share security matters. Importantly, the intergovernmental relations review has provided the infrastructure to ensure that these matters can be discussed in the appropriate way.
Lord Soley (Lab)
As the Minister will know, the Scottish Government have been unable to complete the census. People who lose out from that are usually in low-income groups, who do not complete the census there. I have a feeling that that will affect the financial settlement that the UK Government then have to give to Scotland. If he does not have the answer to that, perhaps he could let us know whether the failure to complete the census in Scotland will impact on the financial settlement for Scotland.
Lord Greenhalgh (Con)
Clearly, it is important to get a census right. On a normal basis, that is completed every 10 years. I am sure there will be an opportunity to discuss these matters as part of the finance and interministerial committee. I am sure that will be at the top of the agenda.
Lord Roberts of Llandudno (LD)
My Lords, are the Government aware that only 2% of the insulin used so essentially by diabetic folk in the UK is produced in the United Kingdom, in Wrexham in Wales? What are the Government doing to ensure, if there is a split in the United Kingdom, and with our foolish distancing from Europe, that we—or you—have any insulin to keep your diabetes in check?
Lord Greenhalgh (Con)
I was wondering when that was going to get back to the original Question, but it is important that we maintain a strong union. We are aware that the Welsh Government have established an independent commission to look at constitutional matters. We should wait for that to report. I do not see any strong desire from the Welsh to leave our great United Kingdom.
Social Homes for Rent
Lord Greenhalgh Excerpts(2 years, 6 months ago)
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Lord Shipley (LD)
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper and remind the House of my interests in the register.
The Minister of State, Home Office and Department for Levelling Up, Housing & Communities (Lord Greenhalgh) (Con)
The provision of affordable housing is a central pillar of the Government’s plan to level up the country, which is why we are investing £11.5 billion in affordable homes over the next five years. Our affordable homes programme, which began last year, aims to deliver 32,000 homes for social rent—double that of the previous programme.
Lord Shipley (LD)
The Minister talks about 32,000 homes for social rent, yet 1.2 million households in this country are on council house waiting lists. The Government recently published their levelling up White Paper, which has 12 missions. Not one of those missions talks about affordable or social housing for rent. Can the Minister explain why?
Lord Greenhalgh (Con)
We have a commitment here, specifically within the affordable homes programme, to build more homes for social rent. We have also introduced a number of mechanisms that enable councils to build again. A generation of councils has not built any homes, or very few, but we have seen far more in the last decade. The levelling-up missions are clear, but we also have very clear missions to build more homes of all types and tenures.
Lord Bird (CB)
Will the Minister look very kindly at the idea of sociable housing, where you get sociable mix? The problem we now have is social ghettos of poverty. We need to create a mix, as well as addressing the problem that the children of the middle classes are also unable to get housing, so why do we not try to mix the two crises together?
Lord Greenhalgh (Con)
The noble Lord is always on the money. We need to create places and not just homes on mono-tenured estates. That is why the affordable homes programme is looking to increase the number of social homes for rent, but also other forms of subsidised housing such as affordable rent and low-cost home ownership, so that people of all incomes can live in the same place.
Baroness Andrews (Lab)
My Lords, when are we going to have a housing policy that takes account of the fact that we have an ageing society? How can you level up when we are expecting a new generation of elderly people in poverty who will go on paying rent as long as they live? If we can plan for an ageing society, why can we not plan to have flexible and adapted housing, systematically provided and spatially planned, which can allow for people to age in place? That would save enormous social and economic costs.
Lord Greenhalgh (Con)
We do recognise that we have an ageing society, which is why a chunk of the £11.5 billion affordable homes programme will go towards subsidising housing for the elderly. We recognise in our planning policies that areas need to do their bit to house people, and also to enable people to remain in their homes if that is what they choose to do.
Baroness Watkins of Tavistock (CB)
My Lords, the promotion of shared ownership homes has helped some people get on to the housing ladder. However, the terms of resale are onerous, particularly for those who wish to move swiftly for new work. Some families default on the mortgage element of their shared ownership, which is likely to increase as a result of increased mortgage costs. Does the Minister agree that, if housing associations are expected to buy back such flats and houses in these circumstances, they could be put back into the social home rental market quickly?
Lord Greenhalgh (Con)
I recognise that there are issues with shared ownership tenure. One of the problems has been that many shared owners own only a small amount of the equity and are often faced with heavy remediation costs. I certainly take that point on board, and we should allow flexibility, where it makes sense, to shift from shared ownership into social housing. I shall take that point away and discuss it with my officials.
Lord Grade of Yarmouth (Con)
My Lords, one of the unexpected consequences of the Covid lockdown period is that people are discovering that they do not need as much office space as they used to. Everyone is downsizing and there is a glut of office accommodation on the market these days which, I suspect, will remain. Might the Government look at the planning required to convert office to residential? That might be a quick fix to create a lot of new homes.
Lord Greenhalgh (Con)
I thank my noble friend for raising that issue. Of course, we went through an era of liberalisation around change of use from office to residential, and that is a factor that local authorities should look at as they develop their local plans: to get the right balance between economic development and providing housing for their communities.
Lord Grocott (Lab)
Is the Minister aware of the Select Committee’s unanimous report Meeting Housing Demand, which said:
“Those living in the private rented sector are more likely to live in poor quality, overcrowded conditions than owner-occupiers, and often have limited forms of redress”?
Does the Minister agree and, if he does, what is he doing to assist people to move out of very highly priced and often poor private rented accommodation into more affordable housing?
Lord Greenhalgh (Con)
The Government do recognise the issue that the noble Lord describes. That is why in this Session we are bringing forward a private renters’ Bill and applying the decent homes standard to the private rented sector so we can raise the quality of the stock. However, we also recognise that we need to bring in more affordable housing, including more social housing.
The Lord Speaker (Lord McFall of Alcluith)
My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Thomas of Winchester, will now make a virtual contribution.
Baroness Thomas of Winchester (LD) [V]
My Lords, what action are the Government taking to address the need for more accessible housing, and when can we expect a response to the consultation on raising accessible housing standards?
Lord Greenhalgh (Con)
As the noble Baroness indicates, we have just carried out a consultation on raising accessible housing standards, and I shall write to her to give more details on that point.
Baroness Masham of Ilton (CB)
My Lords, is the Minister aware that there is a big problem with not enough social homes for people who have wheelchairs? Is this not one of the reasons for bed blocking in hospitals?
Lord Greenhalgh (Con)
We do recognise that the perennial issue of bed blocking . It is important to get the balance of who accesses social housing, with proper regard for people who require wheelchair access to homes. The noble Baroness makes a very important point.
Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)
The Government built only just under 6,000 social rent homes in 2020. That was a 12% decrease on the previous year and an 85% decrease on 11 years ago. With shortages of materials and labour, many see the target of 300,000 homes a year by the mid-2020s as almost impossible. Does the Minister still think that target is achievable?
Lord Greenhalgh (Con)
We try to set specific, measurable and achievable targets. I do not want to trade statistics, but I point out that in the last decade, we have seen local authorities once again building homes for social rent—18,300 homes for social rent. In the 13 years from 1997 to 2010, local authorities built merely 2,994 affordable homes. So, with councils able to build more social rented homes, we will have a very good chance of meeting those targets.
Lord Best (CB)
My Lords, does the Minister agree that the Government get incredible value for money investing in the acquisition and modernisation of existing rundown privately rented properties? This converts them into affordable, safe, secure socially rented homes, but it also addresses fuel poverty, hits the decarbonisation and climate change agenda and tackles health inequalities, because people are in cold, damp and hazardous conditions. It serves the levelling-up agenda as well, because it produces jobs, employment, training and apprenticeships. It does all these things at once, and the Government get most of their money back in lower housing benefit costs.
Lord Greenhalgh (Con)
The noble Lord is right that we have seen a spiralling increase in housing benefit costs—staggering increases over the past decade or so. Of course, taking poor-quality private rented accommodation and turning it into high-quality affordable housing is a good thing and provides value for money for the taxpayer.
Baroness Thornhill (LD)
The Government’s recent announcement that right to buy is being extended to housing association properties will even further deplete the stock of homes for social rent. Is it now time to allow councils to keep 100% of their receipts from right to buy in order to rebuild and to give them the ability to set the discounts locally that their particular circumstances dictate?
Lord Greenhalgh (Con)
I have some sympathy with the point that the noble Baroness makes, but we should point out that there are now greater flexibilities around right-to-buy receipts—not necessarily 100%, but they are greater. We have also removed the cap on borrowing for the housing revenue account, and that is why we are seeing councils building far more homes than they previously did.
High-rise Buildings: Evacuation of Disabled Residents
Lord Greenhalgh Excerpts(2 years, 6 months ago)
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Baroness Brinton
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to provide for legally-binding evacuation plans for all disabled residents in high-rise buildings.
The Minister of State, Home Office and Department for Levelling Up, Housing & Communities (Lord Greenhalgh) (Con)
My Lords, the Government have launched a new consultation on proposals to support the fire safety of residents unable to self-evacuate in an emergency. These include a person-centred fire risk assessment for these residents, simultaneous evacuation of buildings and the provision of information to fire and rescue services to feed into their emergency response. The Government’s response to the PEEPs consultation was published on 18 May. It sets out the difficulties in mandating PEEPs in high-rise residential settings.
Baroness Brinton (LD) [V]
My Lords, the Government’s consultation says that PEEPs would not be proportionate, practical or safe. Instead, it proposes that they stay put. But staying put is what killed 40% of disabled residents in Grenfell Tower. Sir Martin Moore-Bick’s inquiry recommended PEEPs and a premises information box. The fire chiefs’ guidance makes it clear that PEEPs and an information box would help them to evacuate disabled people. Inside Housing has reported that the Government rejected PEEPs after a single meeting with building owners. So how will disabled people be able to get out of a burning high-rise building if fire and safety officers cannot get to them?
Lord Greenhalgh (Con)
It is quite clear that, while we are not mandating PEEPs in high-rise residential buildings, we are consulting on these EEIS proposals. This does not remove the ability of responsible persons to implement PEEPs if they agree with residents that it is appropriate.
Baroness Masham of Ilton (CB)
My Lords, would it be possible to have evacuation lifts in all high-rise buildings? This would benefit everybody.
Lord Greenhalgh (Con)
Having evacuation lifts in high rises, as well as more than a single staircase, is the sort of thing we need to capture and make very clear in building regulations. This will become something of the purview of the new building safety regulator. It is a very good point.
Baroness Sanderson of Welton (Con)
My Lords, I declare my interest as a community adviser on Grenfell, so I really do understand the anger at the decision not to implement PEEPs. In this instance, it is important to acknowledge that this was done not just on a whim or after a single meeting. The truth is that a tremendous amount of work has been done on this behind the scenes, but we have not arrived at a satisfactory place. To that end, would my noble friend agree that it is hugely important that all the interested parties follow the lead of Andy Roe, the LFB commissioner, take part in the new consultation and make their concerns known so that we can make progress and get to a better place?
Lord Greenhalgh (Con)
I thank my noble friend for her recognition of the hard work it has taken to get to this position. There were nearly 400 responses. All were carefully gone through and responded to as part of the previous consultation. I join her in encouraging all parties to come forward and respond to the EEIS+ consultation. The Government really are listening and it is important that we hear from as many diverse stakeholders as possible.
Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)
My Lords, I draw the attention of the House to my relevant interest as a vice-president of the Local Government Association. As the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, said, the Government’s position is that personal emergency evacuation plans for people who would struggle to get out of a burning building are not proportionate, practical or safe to implement. Can the noble Lord please explain the Government’s reasoning for coming to that conclusion? I am sure he can acknowledge that disabled people, their families and friends and campaigners are very worried about that. We need an explanation of why the Government have taken this position.
Lord Greenhalgh (Con)
There are real concerns based on the previous consultation around practicality—the measures that get mobility-impaired residents out in advance of fire and rescue services, which on average respond in six to seven minutes—proportionality in a residential setting, where there are rarely 24-hour staff to carry out evacuations, and safety around evacuation of all residents that does not hinder the fire and rescue services fighting the fire. Those are the concerns we have outlined in the current consultation.
Lord Young of Cookham (Con)
Does my noble friend agree that the need to evacuate disabled residents from high-rise flats would be greatly reduced if the remediation measures to reduce fire risks took place? Following the passage of the Building Safety Act, can my noble friend now say what progress is being made in eliminating those risks from high-rise buildings?
Lord Greenhalgh (Con)
My noble friend is right that the concern is ultimately for those buildings where simultaneous evacuation is in place. We are making progress in ACM buildings and high-rises with other forms of flammable cladding. Most importantly, we now have a situation where we are getting the polluters to pay and the funding in place to get remediation done as quickly as is practical.
Lord Stunell (LD)
My Lords, the Prime Minister gave an undertaking that every recommendation of the Grenfell inquiry would be implemented in full. PEEPs were a clear recommendation of that inquiry. That commitment was underlined by the Secretary of State for what was then the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government. The Minister himself made similar comments during the passage of the Building Safety Act. Can he not understand the anger, fear and frustration of disabled people living in high-rise blocks about what, from an earlier question, appears to be what we might understand to be a delay but might be a U-turn on the Government’s commitment to implement PEEPs?
Lord Greenhalgh (Con)
I genuinely understand the concerns and frustrations, but we have come forward with what we believe to be a sensible proposal. This is a genuine consultation with a call for evidence for examples of practical, proportionate and safe PEEPs and other fire safety initiatives. It also includes a working group with responsible persons, residents and disability groups to examine the role that neighbours and friends can play in supporting the evacuation of vulnerable residents. We are listening and it is important that we get a policy position that works.
Baroness Altmann (Con)
My Lords, I congratulate my noble friend on all the work being done and encourage him and his department to make sure that it is completed as soon as possible. May I ask for an assurance that the needs of frail elderly people, who might not be registered as disabled, are also taken into account, as they might be equally unable to self-evacuate in an emergency?
Lord Greenhalgh (Con)
My noble friend is right that we need to capture those people who may not present themselves as disabled but who clearly have mobility impairments. That is the purpose of the EEIS proposal, which is around ensuring that we can identify those people, that we can organise person-centred fire risk assessments and have home safety visits to come up with measures that do the best to keep them safe. That applies to all mobility-impaired residents.
Lord Berkeley (Lab)
My Lords, behind all these fine words is a practical question: how do you evacuate someone in a wheelchair from an 11, 12 or 13-storey building? The Minister seems to be saying that there will not be any more fires in buildings because of the insulation that the noble Lord, Lord Young, mentioned, but there are practical problems in getting people out in a wheelchair down one staircase when the fire people are trying to come up and do other things. Is there a solution?
Lord Greenhalgh (Con)
This is the real issue, which is why I think the noble Baroness raised the importance of evacuation lifts and having means of exiting a building in that very case. We need to recognise that fire and rescue services need to work as fast as possible to respond and contain the fire. Above all, we need to keep all residents in that building safe.
Baroness Walmsley (LD)
Did I understand the Minister to say in a previous answer, that in the absence of PEEPs, in the case of a fire, it could be up to family and friends to get a disabled person out?
Lord Greenhalgh (Con)
No, I was saying that we have a working group looking at the role that friends, neighbours and other residents may play in supporting the evacuation. That is essentially what I was saying: it is a working group to bring together evidence and information as part of the consultation.
Baroness Uddin (Non-Afl)
My Lords, is the fundamental question not why people with mobility issues are housed in these unsafe environments and conditions? Is it because there is simply not enough accommodation available to local authorities and housing associations? What are the Government doing to address mobility issues in their housing planning?
Lord Greenhalgh (Con)
Obviously we need to provide more affordable housing, which I think is what under- pinned the question. We have invested £11.5 billion as part of the affordable homeless programme and plan to build around 32,000 socially rented homes, double the current amount.
Levelling-up Report
Lord Greenhalgh Excerpts(2 years, 6 months ago)
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The Lord Bishop of London
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what metrics will inform their annual Levelling Up report.
The Minister of State, Home Office and Department for Levelling Up, Housing & Communities (Lord Greenhalgh) (Con)
The annual report will use metrics listed in the levelling-up White Paper technical annexe. There are 22 headline metrics for describing the specific disparities and monitoring progress against the 12 missions, and 27 supporting metrics which capture information relevant to, but broader than, the specific missions. These are selected based on their relevance, availability, frequency of updates and geographical coverage. New and improved data sources may be added as metrics to relevant missions.
The Lord Bishop of London
I thank the Minister for his reply. Within the levelling-up White Paper and Bill, there is a lot of planning for housing and communities. Will Her Majesty’s Government commit to planning communities with resources that account for community-level healthcare interventions that are designed around health and well-being, as well as their measurement, without which the levelling-up agenda will not succeed?
Lord Greenhalgh (Con)
It is important that we look at some of these missions in the round. In that question, the right reverend Prelate brought together three specific missions: we have a health mission, a well-being mission and a housing mission but it is important that we find ways of ensuring progress on all fronts. We have set up an advisory council to do precisely that.
Lord Adonis (Lab)
My Lords, as a contribution to levelling up, does the Secretary of State, Michael Gove, have any proposals to relocate his department and the noble Lord the Minister to Stoke? Does he not think that this might be a constructive suggestion and, in particular, enable him to practise what he preaches?
Lord Greenhalgh (Con)
I thought this Question might go in all directions, including Stoke. We actually have a department in Wolverhampton and are going to conduct a ministerial board meeting there—but personally, I will be joining remotely.
Baroness Wheatcroft (CB)
My Lords, can the Minister simplify things a little and tell the House how much the Government plan to spend on levelling up?
Lord Greenhalgh (Con)
Of course, the expenditure is governed by the expenditure review, and I note that this is a nationwide pledge to level up. Record amounts of money are being spent through the devolved nations.
The Lord Speaker (Lord McFall of Alcluith)
We have a virtual contribution from the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton.
Lord Cormack (Con)
My Lords, will my noble friend tell me whether it is strictly necessary to dumb down the English language in order to level up?
Lord Greenhalgh (Con)
My Lords, I do not think the technical annexe is particularly dumbed down—it is pretty complicated stuff. To have a clear sense of direction supported by metrics which are then enshrined in statute is hardly dumbing things down.
Baroness Andrews (Lab)
My Lords, forgive me for not having the technical annexe, the 22 metrics or the others that the Minister has alluded to. Can he tell me whether it will include the numbers of people using food banks and of new food banks having to be started because of the increasing cost of living? Will we have any evaluation of the catch-up programme, which is so inadequate, in terms of the impact of the pandemic on children and young people?
Lord Greenhalgh (Con)
We recognise the impact of the pandemic and the cost-of-living crisis. But all the metrics are set out clearly in the technical annexe, copies of which are available on the GOV.UK website.
Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)
My Lords, are the Government taking into account the south-west in levelling up?
Lord Greenhalgh (Con)
It is very clear that the levelling-up mission involves levelling up both within and between communities. Of course, it takes into account that there is great disparity within parts of the south-west of this country.
Lord Whitty (Lab)
My Lords, does the range of metrics to which the Minister has referred include disparities within areas? It is no use levelling up Yorkshire by taking resources away from the poorest in London, or levelling up Cornwall by taking them away from the poorest in Hampshire.
Lord Greenhalgh (Con)
As I said in response to the previous question, of course there are great disparities—within Greater London, for instance, never mind within Yorkshire. We must level up between and within communities; the metrics pick up that regional and local disparity.
Lord McLoughlin (Con)
When the Government are reviewing their progress on levelling up, how will they ensure that the budgets and funds allocated are spent in the way desired in the White Paper?
Lord Greenhalgh (Con)
As well as the metrics, within the technical annexe there is a clear plan for how to achieve what is set out in the White Paper. All of that will then be enshrined in law in the Levelling-up and Regeneration Bill.
Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)
My Lords, an IPPR report recently found that with their cuts to council funding, the Government have taken £431 from every single person and handed back just £31 in their levelling-up funds. Does the Minister accept that the Government can meet their levelling-up tests only by working with, and properly funding, local government?
Lord Greenhalgh (Con)
Local government has a critical part to play in levelling up the country. I would point out the commitment through both the UK shared prosperity fund and the levelling-up funds to turbocharge the 12 missions outlined in the Bill.
Baroness Thornhill (LD)
I am particularly interested in the aspirations around housing that are implicit throughout the levelling-up agenda. Given the northern consortium’s recent report on the fact that it is actually the quality of existing homes in the north that is a key factor in poverty and other indicators, what plans do the Government have, besides building brand new houses, to look after the existing stock that is in poor condition?
Lord Greenhalgh (Con)
It is important that we think about our existing stock. As Building Safety Minister, I think that the quality of housing is incredibly important. One of the key headline metrics is the proportion of non-decent rented homes and ensuring that we continue to drive this down and increase the number of homes that have achieved the decent homes standard, which will be adopted within the private rented sector as well.
Baroness Boycott (CB)
My Lords, do the Government think that it is an appropriate part of levelling up to postpone the ban on two-for-one HFSS foods in supermarkets and delay the advertising ban during children’s television? This morning, Cancer Research published data showing that 50% of adults in this country will be obese by 2025. As other noble Lords have pointed out, the disparity between rich and poor in terms of living with good health is now 17 years. That is a burden not just to them but to us and the taxpayer. Could the Minister therefore please explain to the House why the Government have taken this decision to make bad food cheaper, rather than subsidising healthy food to make it more accessible to people on a budget?
Lord Greenhalgh (Con)
My Lords, I think it is for one of my colleagues to explain that decision, but it is clear that the healthy life expectancy metric—to increase it by some five years by 2030—remains, and the Government need to do all they can to achieve that.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)
Does the Minister not agree that, whatever the metrics are, the major decisions as far as England is concerned will still be made in Whitehall? Is it not necessary to give to the regions of England real powers over transport and economic development, and all the administrative powers that Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland have? Until the decisions are made in regional centres, there will be no real levelling up.
Lord Greenhalgh (Con)
As someone who spent 16 years in local government, I am obviously a great fan of devolution. But it is very clear that, by 2030, every part of the United Kingdom that wants a devolution deal with powers will be offered one. That will be the highest level of devolution we have ever had in this country, and that is certainly a step forward.
Lord Newby (LD)
My Lords, I am very pleased to hear what the Minister has just said about every region getting the degree of devolution that it requires. The noble Lord will be aware of the One Yorkshire committee, of which the leaders of Conservative councils in Yorkshire are members. All of them believe that there should be a single devolved authority for the whole of the great county of Yorkshire. Does the Minister concur with that ambition?
Lord Greenhalgh (Con)
I know that there is a strong Yorkshire lobby here. When I look at a map of Yorkshire, I see that it seems to have engulfed most of the north of England these days. But we are devolving into parts of Yorkshire, essentially, with strong mayoral figures. I am sure that they have opportunities to collaborate with their fellow Yorkshire colleagues. But I think that we have moved on from the one Yorkshire idea.
Lord Lexden (Con)
Since he is a strong supporter of devolution, will my noble friend tell the House how our fellow country men and women in Northern Ireland will benefit from this process? How much money are the Government allocating to Northern Ireland and what will the results be? I declare my interest as a fervent supporter of the union.
Lord Greenhalgh (Con)
The Northern Ireland Executive will receive a funding boost of some £1.6 billion per year. These are the highest annual funding settlement increases for devolved Administrations since devolution began in 1998.
Building Safety Bill
Lord Greenhalgh ExcerptsTuesday 26th April 2022
(2 years, 7 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Building Safety Act 2022 View all Building Safety Act 2022 Debates Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts Amendment Paper: HL Bill 147-I Marshalled list for Consideration of Commons Amendments - (25 Apr 2022)
Lord Greenhalgh
That this House do not insist on its Amendment 6 and do agree with the Commons in their Amendment 6A in lieu.
“Report on certain safety-related matters
(1) Before the end of the period of three years beginning when this section comes into force, the regulator must—
(a) carry out a cost-benefit analysis of making regular inspections of, and testing and reporting on, the condition of electrical installations in relevant buildings;
(b) consider what further provision under the Building Act 1984, or in guidance under that Act, may be made about—
(i) stairs and ramps in relevant buildings,
(ii) emergency egress of disabled persons from relevant buildings, and
(iii) automatic water fire suppression systems in relevant buildings, with a view to improving the safety of persons in or about relevant buildings, and carry out a cost-benefit analysis of the making of that provision.
(2) Before the end of that period, the regulator must—
(a) prepare one or more reports about the analysis mentioned in subsection (1) (which may also contain recommendations), and
(b) give them to the Secretary of State.
(3) The Secretary of State must publish any report received under subsection (2).
(4) In this section “cost-benefit analysis” means—
(a) an analysis of the costs together with an analysis of the benefits that will arise if the things mentioned in subsection (1)(a) are done or the provision mentioned in subsection (1)(b) is made, and
(b) an estimate of those costs and of those benefits (subject to subsection (5)).
(5) If, in the opinion of the regulator—
(a) the costs or benefits cannot reasonably be estimated, or
(b) it is not reasonably practicable to produce an estimate, the cost-benefit analysis need not estimate them, but must include a statement of the regulator’s opinion and an explanation of it.
(6) In this section—
“electrical installation” means fixed electrical cables or fixed electrical equipment located on the consumer’s side of the electricity supply meter;
“relevant building” means a residential building or any other kind of building that the regulator considers appropriate.”
The Minister of State, Home Office and Department for Levelling Up, Housing & Communities (Lord Greenhalgh) (Con)
My Lords, with the leave of the House, I will also speak to Motions B to H.
Here we are again: debating this landmark Bill which will bring forward the biggest changes to building safety legislation in our history. I will turn quickly to the outstanding non-government amendments. Noble Lords, led by the dynamic duo, my noble friends Lord Young of Cookham and Lord Blencathra, extended the definition of “relevant building” to buildings of all heights containing two or more dwellings. As the Government have said on many occasions, we must restore proportionality to the system. That is why we cannot agree to extend leaseholder protections to include buildings under 11 metres. As I have said repeatedly, there is no systemic risk of fire for buildings below 11 metres. Such buildings are extremely unlikely to need costly remediation to make them safe. Despite research and lobbying from a number of areas, the department has been made aware of only a handful of low-rise buildings where freeholders have been commissioning such work, and even fewer where that work was actually based on a proper assessment in line with the PAS 9980 principles.
My right honourable friend the Minister for Housing was clear that leaseholders in buildings below 11 metres should write to my department should they find that their freeholder or landlord is commissioning costly remediation works. I have already intervened directly with building owners and landlords to challenge freeholders, such as in Mill Court, and will continue to do so. Your Lordships can be assured that I will bring my full weight to bear where landlords are looking to carry out works that are not needed or justified. However, given the very small number of buildings involved, it is not appropriate to take forward a blanket legislative intervention and bring hundreds of thousands more buildings into scope. I must point out to noble Lords that doing this could backfire, sending mixed signals and encouraging the market to take an overly risk-averse approach to this class of buildings.
Turning to leaseholder-owned—or collectively enfranchised and commonhold—buildings, the Government’s original proposals included an exemption from the leaseholder protection provisions for leaseholder-owned buildings: those in which the leaseholders have collectively enfranchised, and those which are on commonhold land. Noble Lords agreed an amendment in the names of my noble friends Lord Young and Lord Blencathra—the dynamic duo again—and the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, to remove that exemption.
Those noble Lords will know that I have a great deal of sympathy with their position. I know that the amendment is well-intentioned and driven by a desire to protect these leaseholders, and the Government share those aims. However, as I said on Report, these amendments will not have the intended effect of protecting leaseholders living in those buildings. Those leaseholders who have enfranchised would still have to pay, but in their capacity as owners of the freehold rather than as leaseholders. Worse, where some leaseholders have enfranchised and others have not, the enfranchised leaseholders would have to pay for remediation of the whole building in their capacity as owners of the freehold, including the share of remediation costs that would otherwise have been recoverable from those leaseholders who have not enfranchised, once they have paid up to the cap. This would create the perverse situation where the leaseholder protections result in an increase in liability for those leaseholders who have chosen to collectively enfranchise. That is why the other place agreed to reinstate the exemption for leaseholder-owned buildings. My right honourable friend the Minister for Housing announced last Wednesday that the Government would consult on how best leaseholders in collectively enfranchised and commonhold buildings can be protected from the costs associated with historical building safety defects to the extent as all leaseholders.
Turning finally to the qualifying leaseholder contribution caps, the Government proposed that lease- holders’ contributions should be capped at £10,000, or £15,000 in Greater London. We believe that this approach protects leaseholders, while ensuring that work to remediate buildings can get under way. Noble Lords agreed with the amendment of the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, to reduce that cap on contributions to zero.
I will not repeat all of the Government’s arguments here, but I want to remind Peers of just how far the Government have come. Leaseholders are fully protected from costs associated with the removal of unsafe cladding. On non-cladding defects, where a developer has signed up to our developer pledge—that is more than 35 developers—they will fix non-cladding defects, as well as cladding defects, in their own buildings, and these leaseholders will pay nothing. If a building owner is, or is linked to, the developer, that building owner will be liable for the costs associated with non-cladding defects, and their leaseholders will pay nothing. If the building owner or landlord is not linked to the developer but has the wealth to meet the non-cladding costs in full, their leaseholders will pay nothing. If a leasehold property is valued at less than £175,000, or £325,000 in London, the leaseholder will pay nothing, and, if the leaseholder has already contributed up to the cap, they will pay nothing. Based on this approach, the Government’s assessment is that the vast majority of leaseholders will pay less than the caps, and many will pay nothing at all.
In relation to safety checks, noble Lords agreed to an amendment that requires the new building safety regulator to look at a number of important safety matters. We have consulted with the HSE and are happy to confirm that we fully accept the principle of this amendment, and the building safety regulator will be happy to take forward these safety reviews. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Stunell, for his passionate advocacy in this area. The Government therefore proposed an alternate version of this proposal, which was agreed in the other place. I hope noble Lords will agree that this provides clearer drafting and a more practical and pragmatic approach. Importantly, we have increased the time available to the regulator from two years to three years. This reflects the time needed for the regulator to develop the capacity to carry out these reviews alongside all its other functions. We have also made a number of technical improvements to the Bill, and I am happy to answer questions while summing up.
Lord Stunell (LD)
My Lords, as the person who has just had his name mentioned, I will start my very brief contribution by saying that there will be noble Lords who have a lot of criticism of what has come back from the Commons, but I am not one of them in respect of Amendment 6A. I am very pleased to see that the Government have responded well to the views that were very strongly expressed by Members of your Lordships’ House on all sides on the importance of tackling these issues. The Minister has come back with an amendment that is longer than the one that we tabled, and he has come back with a period of time that is longer than the one that we suggested. I am delighted with the first, which shows that he has better drafters than I had at my disposal, but I am not so happy about the three years.
However, it is going to be a major step forward if we get these issues of fire suppression, stairways and ramps, electrical equipment and safety, and provision for people with disabilities properly examined and costed, with the regulations coming in front of the House and in front of the Secretary of State. Even if it takes three years, it will be a significant step forward, and I am very pleased indeed to see that it is included in this Bill.
Baroness Pinnock (LD)
My Lords, it is good to recognise that the Bill has indeed been transformed during its passage through Parliament, but the major transformation point was initiated by the Secretary of State, Michael Gove, when he said that
“leaseholders are shouldering a desperately unfair burden. They are blameless, and it is morally wrong that they should be the ones asked to pay the price.”—[Official Report, Commons, 10/1/22; col. 283.]
I agree, as many others across the House will. Unfortunately, however, the Bill currently does expect some leaseholders to pay. My colleagues and I are asking the Government today to think again.
The Government argue that Article 1 of Protocol 1 of the European Convention on Human Rights ensures a balance of rights between property owners and leaseholders, which in their view means that leaseholders have to pay towards the costs. That is the basis of the Government’s argument for the cap of £10,000 and £15,000. However, that view was comprehensively challenged by my noble friend Lord Marks, whose argument was endorsed fully by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope of Craighead, on Report. Senior legal minds in this House agree that it is possible within the ECHR for innocent leaseholders to pay nothing.
This legitimately opens up the opportunity, which must be grasped, for the Government to accept that leaseholders must not pay a penny whatever the height of the building, hence Motion D1 in my name to include buildings under 11 metres so that leaseholders in those buildings do not pay. As the noble Lord, Lord Young of Cookham, rightly reminded us, a building under 11 metres has been destroyed by fire in under 11 minutes. We really need to think again about those buildings under 11 metres. However, I thank the Minister for the assurances he has given to those leaseholders in buildings under 11 metres at the Dispatch Box today and for urging them to get directly in contact with him if they get any invoices for remediation works. I am sure I will be holding him to account on that one, as will the leaseholders, and I am sure they will get in touch with us across the House to make sure that they do not pay. They must not.
What I do know is that the Government need to think again about the leaseholder cap. My Motion H2 reduces the cap back to zero, where it should be. I remind the House of the commitment by Secretary of State Michael Gove that leaseholders should not be paying the cost incurred as the result of the sometimes deliberate actions of others. The Minister himself has acknowledged tonight that some leaseholders will still pay, when we agreed in January at the very start of this great transformation that they are blameless and it is morally wrong that they should have to be the ones to pay the price. We have looked after many leaseholders but not all.
Obduracy in the face of moral right is a failure of political leadership. We on the Liberal Democrat Benches will support the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman of Ullock, in her Motion H1 to achieve a degree of improvement to the lot of leaseholders, who have shouldered the burden of anxiety and fear for too long and whose campaigning efforts have achieved so much.
Lord Greenhalgh (Con)
My Lords, I must thank noble Lords for their contributions to this debate. I am not sure; maybe we are close to that point where we can say, “One more heave”. I want quickly to turn to Amendment 94 and Motion D1, the amendment of the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, to the Government’s Motion D, where she disagrees with the Government. I explained in my opening speech the reasoning behind our Amendment 94A and I do not propose to repeat my arguments. I simply remind noble Lords that the approach the Government have proposed is sensible. Setting the threshold at 11 metres will help restore proportionality to the system, as also argued by my noble friend Lady Neville-Rolfe, and the Government have committed to consult on how best leaseholders in collectively enfranchised and commonhold buildings can be protected. On timescales, in response to my noble friend, I think we said “soon”. I shall strengthen that and say “as soon as possible”. That is a big concession.
I turn to Motion H1 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, as an amendment to the Government’s Motion H. It would replace a zero cap in a previous amendment with £250 for leaseholder contributions, while Motion H2 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, disagrees with the Government’s caps.
Motion H1 would make changes to the leaseholder contribution caps in Schedule 8 and reduce them to £250, up from the zero cap in her previous amendment. Motion H2 disagrees with the Government’s Motion and would return the caps to zero. As I said in my opening speech, the Government have been clear that setting the leaseholder contribution caps to zero or to a nominal level, such as £250 or £25 a year for 10 years, would not be a proportionate approach. I reiterate the Government’s commitment to protecting leaseholders. Indeed, it is hard to overstate how far-reaching our proposed protections are. They represent a hugely significant and robust improvement on the existing position for leaseholders.
Lord Greenhalgh
That this House do agree with the Commons in their Amendments 93A and 93B.
(a) is at least 11 metres high, or
(b) has at least 5 storeys.
This is subject to subsection (2A).
“Relevant building” does not include a self-contained building or self- contained part of a building—
(a) in relation to which a right under Part 1 of the Landlord and Tenant Act 1987 (tenants’ right of first refusal) or Part 3 of that Act (compulsory acquisition by tenants of landlord’s interest) has been exercised,
(b) in relation to which the right to collective enfranchisement (within the meaning of Chapter 1 of Part 1 of the Leasehold Reform, Housing and Urban Development Act 1993) has been exercised,
(c) if the freehold estate in the building or part of the building is leaseholder owned (within the meaning of regulations made by the Secretary of State), or
(d) which is on commonhold land.”
Lord Greenhalgh
That this House do agree with the Commons in their Amendments 98A, 98B and 98C.
Lord Greenhalgh
That this House do agree with the Commons in their Amendments 107A, 108A, 109A and 109B.
Lord Greenhalgh
That this House do agree with the Commons in their Amendments 184A, 184B, 184D and 184D.
South-west of England: Levelling up
Lord Greenhalgh Excerpts(2 years, 7 months ago)
Grand CommitteeRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Teverson (LD)
I congratulate Bishop Robert—the right reverend Prelate—on securing this debate, which is really important. I absolutely agree with his theme that we think so much about the levelling-up agenda as being north versus south—or, indeed, on occasions, as has been shown factually in terms of government funding programmes over the years, urban versus rural. Of course, the south-west is important in its rural population and its rural contribution culturally and economically.
If noble Lords will forgive me, I will talk mainly about Cornwall and the Isles of Scilly, and the shared prosperity fund. What I say is not a criticism of the Government; one of the things I want to succeed is the shared prosperity fund. There are a number of questions here that I will go through and I would be happy to have those answered subsequent to the debate rather than necessarily here today.
Nearly everything that I talk about will also be relevant to the rest of the greater south-west. It is perhaps symbolic that all the speakers in this debate are lined up on the same side of the argument, apart from the Minister—
The Minister of State, Home Office and Department for Levelling Up, Housing & Communities (Lord Greenhalgh) (Con)
We have someone here who was leader of Wiltshire County Council for 16 years. Take that one away.
Lord Teverson (LD)
I apologise. But we have a unity here.
In Cornwall, our earnings are some 20%—one-fifth—less than the national average. Our GDP is 30% less than the national average. It is interesting that if you look at the contours of productivity, as you move further south-west, productivity goes down significantly east to west. Is that inevitable? I look across to the Republic of Ireland, which used to be one of the tigers of the European economy. It is still more affluent than many parts of the UK. That remoteness is not something that we should take for granted; actually, it causes those differences. Of course, exactly as the right reverend Prelate said, house prices go in the opposite direction. They are high and largely unaffordable for the resident population.
We are still unclear how the shared prosperity fund will operate. We have a framework there. We understand it is going to be £2.6 billion over three years. The promise by the Government—certainly the Prime Minister—has been that the funding that Cornwall and the Isles of Scilly had under European programmes will be replicated. I ask for confirmation that, in that first period of three years, Cornwall and the Isles of Scilly will have something like £300 million in funding, and that over the seven years—it was a seven-year programme in European days—it will be something like £700 million.
One of the positives about seven-year programmes was that you could plan over that time. Three years is a lot more difficult. Perhaps we could have an assurance that we will not have a programme that starts late and has to spend by the end of year 3, meaning that those projects are short-term and not optimal. I think the Minister would understand that issue.
I also understand that the programmes will be primarily revenue-based. Yet when we come to productivity—I will say more on this later—yes, it is around skills, which I will also come on to, but it is also around investment. A lot of that needs to be capital expenditure rather than just revenue. Will the Government recognise that as that programme proceeds?
I also understand that in the first year 20% of the funding for shared prosperity will go towards a fund called Multiply, which is all about adult numeracy and language. Excellent though that is, it means that there will not be any skills element in the first year, meaning there is a gap between the ESF programmes we have at the moment and skills-based programmes we might have in future after the first year.
One of the great frustrations of European funding was that it took two years to agree the programmes between local authorities, Whitehall and Brussels. It is absolutely essential that these programmes start on time. They need to be agreed and then roll out as soon as the money is available on projects that are not too short term. I ask the Minister: will there be flexibility for the whole south-west—whether Cornwall, Devon or Dorset—as it understands its own needs best? Will that delegation of decision-making downwards, which was sometimes also absent in European programmes, be improved?
Lastly, I want to talk about productivity for 15 seconds. This is a practical thing. Whenever companies I know have applied for European funding in the past it has all been “Jobs, jobs, jobs”. The problem is not jobs; the problem is productivity, careers and decently paid jobs. I ask the Minister that, when people have to fill forms out, they are not just around jobs; they are around productivity and quality. We as the south-west and as Cornwall want to contribute to the rest of the United Kingdom. Please let us do so.
Lord Greenhalgh (Con)
My Lords, I too congratulate the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Exeter on securing this debate. He was known as Robert Atwell when he was chaplain during my early years as an undergraduate. He looked a lot younger then—but then, so did I. I used to row, which you cannot believe, given the physique I have now. He said, “You got on the first boat, in your first term!” As a Roman Catholic, he got me into the chapel and made it very much part of college life. That is what he has brought to his current job. He really cares about his region, and it comes through palpably. He has raised a lot of very important issues.
I take issue with the idea that the Government do not have the credentials to speak for the south-west. Here today we have the noble Lord, Lord Khan of Burnley, a former cabinet member for Burnley. We also have with us a very distinguished leader for six years of Somerset County Council, which is a pretty good innings for the Liberal Democrats. But the Government Whip here has been—
Lord Teverson (LD)
I said that the speakers were on this side. I was not in any way—
Lord Greenhalgh (Con)
Fair enough, but the Government Whip here, my noble friend Lady Scott of Bybrook, was for 16 years—not just six—leader of Wiltshire Council.
Lord Greenhalgh (Con)
That is living there; this is leading a council for 16 years. I managed six, which is in itself an achievement. The knowledge, the experience and the drive that it takes to lead a council for 16 years is here supporting me. What is more, I have covering fire from my noble friend Lord Whitby, who represents the great Birmingham City Council, which he led with great distinction for many years—
Lord Greenhalgh (Con)
There you go; on this side of the House we have real experience. I want to deal with the accusation from the noble Lord, Lord Khan, that there is no money and no power. Let us deal with the money first and the power second.
On commitment to the south-west and the money currently being spent, these are staggering sums. There is an initial £131 million investment through round one of the levelling-up fund—that is money. The towns fund is investing £198 million across nine towns in the south-west—that is money. Eleven places in the south-west have received over £138.5 million of funding through the future high streets fund—that is money. The noble Lord should recognise that that is money. There is £92.6 million allocated to the south-west through the getting building fund—that is money. In 2017, the West of England Combined Authority agreed a devolution deal worth over £900 million in investment in the area over 13 years—that is money.
Let us think about the future, because now we are talking about real power: devolution and devolution deals. I know that a number will come to the surface in the next few years in the south-west, devolving real power away to the south-west. That is the power that follows the money.
I want to deal specifically with the right reverend Prelate’s issues; since he secured the debate, I should address most of my remarks to them. He talked about the capacity for innovation. One of the things I learnt in preparation for this debate is that we are increasing public R&D investment to £20 billion by 2024-25. Of this, at least 55% will go to places outside London and the south-east, helping those places to develop competitive advantages. Obviously, I hope that much of that goes to the south-west. There is a lot of money there to deal with the deprivation that the right reverend Prelate has outlined. Certainly, the south-west has benefited from £303 million of Innovate UK funding since 2008. We continue to see R&D investment, which can only get bigger, going to the south-west.
The right reverend Prelate is also a great champion on issues of rural and coastal deprivation. He asked a couple specific questions about whether targeted interventions reach the rural hinterland. The Government will publish the second report on rural proofing in England this spring—imminently. It will set out how government departments are working to support levelling up in rural areas through targeted approaches where needed, and how we are strengthening the rural economies. More on that anon.
On connectivity and the patchy provision of rural services, last week the Government announced a further £32 million of funding to protect the crucial Dawlish rail link in Devon. This is part of £155 million to level up investments between communities in the south-west.
The noble Lord, Lord Teverson, wanted to know about the UK shared prosperity fund. It is a good question, but he will just have to wait a bit. The prospectus will be published imminently, but I take the point about having time to plan and having flexibility. As a former local leader myself, I completely agree with those principles, and they are points well made.
The noble Lord, Lord Teverson, who I think is a distinguished former Member of the European Parliament, also wanted to know whether EU funding levels will be matched for Cornwall and the Isles of Scilly. I have been told that the Government will match current EU funding levels in Cornwall and the Isles of Scilly and will publish details of allocations in due course. There is some information for the noble Lord that I think is positive.
Will there be flexibility? I think I have answered that. Let us get the detail about that on the table in future.
It is important to recognise that the Government set out an ambition that takes us to 2030, along with some clear missions, and through the spending review they have been driving the spending around those missions. They will measure those and publish an annual report, but I thank the right reverend Prelate for once again making us realise that it is not a north/south issue or a rural/urban issue: there is deprivation and issues that need to be tackled throughout all four nations of this great United Kingdom.
The Church plays an incredibly important role, particularly in education, and I recognise that. The right reverend Prelate mentioned the diocesan schools. In my patch, Hammersmith and Fulham, we have wonderful voluntary aided schools that provide first-class opportunities within the maintained sector for young people to get on in life. Long may that continue.
This has been a great debate. There is a lot to be said for the south-west—but you would never know it, listening to the noble Lord, Lord Khan.
Building Safety Bill
Lord Greenhalgh ExcerptsMonday 4th April 2022
(2 years, 7 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Building Safety Act 2022 View all Building Safety Act 2022 Debates Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts Amendment Paper: HL Bill 144-I Amendment for Third Reading - (1 Apr 2022)
Lord Ashton of Hyde (Con)
My Lords, I have it in command from Her Majesty the Queen and His Royal Highness the Prince of Wales to acquaint the House that they, having been informed of the purport of the Building Safety Bill, have consented to place their interests, so far as they are affected by the Bill, at the disposal of Parliament for the purposes of the Bill.
The Minister of State, Home Office and Department for Levelling Up, Housing & Communities (Lord Greenhalgh) (Con)
My Lords, a significant number of the provisions in the Building Safety Bill apply to England and Wales and a number also apply to Scotland and/or Northern Ireland. Throughout the preparation and passage of the Bill we have been working closely with each of the devolved Administrations, and I pay tribute to officials and Ministers in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland for their constructive engagement and support.
There are provisions in the Bill which engage the legislative consent process in the Scottish Parliament, Senedd Cymru and the Northern Ireland Assembly. I am pleased to report that the Senedd and the Scottish Parliament have granted legislative consent. However, the Northern Ireland Executive have not brought forward a legislative consent memorandum and the Assembly has therefore not voted on legislative consent. I reassure noble Lords that the Government will continue to engage with the Northern Ireland Executive.
Schedule 8: Remediation costs under qualifying leases etc
Amendment 1
Lord Greenhalgh (Con)
My Lords, the Grenfell Tower tragedy resulted in the largest loss of life in a residential fire since the Second World War. On 14 June 2017, 72 people died and 70 more were injured. This was the deadliest structural fire in the United Kingdom since Piper Alpha in 1988. The Government are determined to ensure that a tragedy such as this never happens again. The Building Safety Bill is the landmark Bill that delivers on that mission.
These are the biggest changes to building safety legislation in our history. The Bill not only addresses the total building safety regulatory system failure head-on but protects leaseholders who are the victims in a building safety crisis. This Bill helps to ensure that there is a more proportionate approach to building safety risk, introduces a cap on the historic building safety costs that leaseholders will have to pay and, finally, provides an extensive set of tools in law that will ensure that the polluter pays.
Fifteen of the 37 disabled residents living in Grenfell Tower died in the fire. That is more than 40% of the disabled residents. The Government are committed to supporting the fire safety of disabled and vulnerable residents. We are acutely aware of the need to ensure the safety of residents with mobility concerns. The Government ran a consultation on the issue of personal emergency evacuation plans—PEEPs—in July 2021. The consultation has made clear the substantial difficulties of mandating PEEPs in high-rise residential buildings around practicality, proportionality and safety. On practicality, how can you evacuate a mobility-impaired person from a tall building before the professionals from the fire and rescue service arrive? On proportionality, how much is it reasonable to spend to do this at the same time as we seek to protect residents and taxpayers from excessive costs? On safety, how can you ensure that an evacuation of mobility-impaired people is carried out in a way that does not hinder others in evacuating or the fire and service in fighting the fire?
Given these difficulties, the Government are committing to undertake a new consultation. While our response is still being finalised, this will include a proposal called “emergency evacuation information-sharing” or EEIS. The Government will publish our response to the PEEPs consultation and our new consultation on EEIS and commence the Fire Safety Act 2021 on the same day next month, which is as soon as practical after the pre-election period. I have discussed this at some length with the noble Baronesses, Lady Grey-Thompson and Lady Brinton. I confirm to the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, that the consultation will look to ensure as best we can that the golden thread exists between planning for the safe evacuation of a mobility-impaired person when needed and the response of fire and rescue services in the event that a building needs to be evacuated.
The Building Safety Bill leaves your Lordships’ House in a far better state than it arrived in. I welcome the clear cross-party support for the Bill. Both Opposition Benches have played hard but fair. I thank the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, for using his considerable professional expertise and the noble Baronesses, Lady Jolly and Lady Finlay of Llandaff, for their redoubtable efforts with the Safer Stairs campaign. I also thank the noble Baroness, Lady Fox of Buckley, for ensuring that the new regime is as proportionate as possible. Finally, I thank the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of St Albans for helping improve the Bill in the interests of leaseholders.
On the Government Benches, I thank my noble friend Lord Naseby for representing the interests of pensioners with pensions tied up in buy-to-let leasehold properties, my noble friend Lady Sanderson for ensuring that the voice of the Grenfell community is heard loud and clear, and last but by no means least, the dynamic duo of my noble friends Lord Young and Lord Blencathra, who have brought decades of parliamentary experience to ensure that leaseholders are protected. I also thank my long-suffering Whip, my noble friend Lady Scott, and her understudy briefly on Report, my noble friend Lady Bloomfield. My heartfelt thanks also go to Hannah Ellis in the Whips’ Office.
Finally, I thank the army of officials in the Department for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities, the Home Office and across government for their support and hard work over the last few months. I will name four who deserve special mention: the former Bill manager, Amy Payne, the current Bill manager, Catherine Canning, and the superb DHLUC government lawyers, Joanna Stewart and Katherine Bridges.
The Deputy Speaker (Lord Haskel) (Lab)
My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, is taking part remotely. I invite the noble Baroness to speak.
Baroness Pinnock (LD)
My Lords, I start by thanking the cladding and building safety campaigners who have been resolute and unremitting, since the Grenfell fire tragedy, in pursuing justice for leaseholders and tenants. Without them, this Bill would not be in the shape it is today. It has been transformed but not transformed enough, as we have heard from others. Across the House, people have worked together to make it a better Bill. I thank them for the way we have worked together to make improvements, but it is not yet enough.
I, too, urge the Government to accept the amendments that we accepted on Report. I, for one, am not giving way. I hope that the Government, at the other end, will say that the argument has been made for a nil cost to all leaseholders. That is where I shall firmly stand to the bitter end. Leaseholders are the innocent victims; they must not pay a penny.
I pass on my thanks to the Minister for being so free with his time, discussing the various amendments, and to the officials from various parts of the Government for explaining the detailed changes that had been proposed. Particularly, I thank Sarah Pughe in the Liberal Democrat Whips’ Office, and my noble friend Lord Stunell. Without their expertise, knowledge and experience, we would not have been able to do the job that, between us, we have done. I look forward to the Bill coming back, having been accepted by the Commons.
Lord Greenhalgh (Con)
My Lords, I beg the indulgence of noble Lords: as my noble friend Lord Young and the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, asked pretty much the same question, I thought I would respond to that very briefly. They wanted to know what happens to orphan buildings, where there is no polluter to pay. I do not feel that this works in this setting, but I have this wonderful diagram that makes it pretty clear to me what happens. This is the so-called “non-cladding costs waterfall”, which I am going to try to have put on the Government’s website. Let us be very clear: we need to look at this in terms of cladding and non-cladding.
There is, of course, the £5.1 billion building safety fund for the remediation of cladding in high-rise residential buildings, which is open to orphan buildings. My department is seeking a further £4 billion voluntary contribution. In the first instance, it is a voluntary contribution from the developers for the remediation of unsafe cladding in medium-rise buildings, which is also open to orphan buildings. Then, we have this wonderful government waterfall for non-cladding costs: the developers must pay. In instances where the developer is not available to pay, the landlord must pay. The landlord or freeholders who pass the government test, which is a net worth of £2 million per building, become legally liable for all the costs. The landlords must comply with the law, as set out by Parliament. Freeholders or landlords must pursue those responsible, as well as any applicable grant schemes, before they can pass costs on.
Finally, as it says on this wonderful chart, which even I can read with my poor eyesight, costs are shared equitably between freeholders, lessees and leaseholders, subject to robust leaseholder protections detailed in the Bill—and sent back to the other place with some other parameters that perhaps the Government might not have wanted at this stage.
I want to make a final point about landlords. Sadly, some landlords are polluters. A number of large freeholders have appeared on the Government’s “name and shame” list for not remediating their buildings. Some freeholders or landlords have gone so far as to force leaseholders to take loans to remediate their buildings. As I said, we all agree that, in those instances, the polluter must pay.
Local Government (Disqualification) Bill
Lord Greenhalgh ExcerptsFriday 1st April 2022
(2 years, 7 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Local Government (Disqualification) Act 2022 View all Local Government (Disqualification) Act 2022 Debates Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts Amendment Paper: Consideration of Bill Amendments as at 14 January 2022 - (14 Jan 2022)
Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)
My Lords, we welcome this legislation. I pay tribute to Sir Paul Beresford for promoting it in the other place and to the noble Lord, Lord Udny-Lister, for sponsoring it here. It is a small but important piece of legislation and we very much welcome it.
The Minister of State, Home Office and Department for Levelling Up, Housing & Communities (Lord Greenhalgh) (Con)
My Lords, I want to add the Government’s support. I once again thank my noble friend—and my political mentor in many ways in local government—for all his work in sponsoring this Private Member’s Bill. I pay tribute also to the Member for Mole Valley, Sir Paul Beresford, for taking the Bill through the ballot and for the diligent work he has done. Obviously, the Government fully support the Bill, which closes an important loophole.
Housebuilding: Target
Lord Greenhalgh Excerpts(2 years, 8 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Young of Cookham
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what progress they have made towards meeting their target of building 300,000 homes a year.
The Minister of State, Home Office and Department for Levelling Up, Housing & Communities (Lord Greenhalgh) (Con)
From April 2019 to March 2020, more than 242,000 homes were delivered—the highest level for over 30 years. Despite the pandemic, we enabled construction sites to stay open, allowing us to deliver more than 216,000 homes in England in 2020-21, well above the 186,500 forecast for the whole of the UK.
Lord Young of Cookham (Con)
I am grateful to my noble friend, but is he aware that the House of Lords Built Environment Committee has warned the Government that they will miss their targets by about half over the period of time in question? In order to catch up, will my noble friend consider greatly accelerating the number of homes built off-site, using modular construction? These are quicker, built to a higher quality and less susceptible to the weather than traditional methods. Within that, will he consider more homes for the elderly, which are in short supply, so that those who want to can downsize, freeing up their homes for families?
Lord Greenhalgh (Con)
My noble friend has extensive experience of housing. The department recognises the importance of modern methods of construction, both volumetric and non-volumetric as well as those designed for manufacture and assembly, and we have a target within the affordable homes programme of delivering around 25% through these methods. Obviously, we recognise the need for housing of all types and tenures, and both supported and private housing for the elderly, and retirement communities are a very important part of getting the built environment right.
Lord Carrington (CB)
My Lords, in order to maximise the funding for the building of affordable housing, there is a need to bring in willing and able institutional investors. However, the Government must create a level playing field in terms of the tax positions and grant agreements between housing associations and institutional investors to encourage much-needed collaboration between the two. Please could the Minister comment on this and other measures to attract private investment?
Lord Greenhalgh (Con)
My Lords, I recognise the important role that registered providers have played in building affordable housing but also note that, increasingly, councils are building council homes again, which is a good thing. We will look at whatever it takes to remove those barriers to enable people who are building affordable housing to access institutional investment.
The Lord Speaker (Lord McFall of Alcluith)
My Lords, we have a virtual contribution from the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton.
Baroness Brinton (LD) [V]
My Lords, research by Habinteg has shown that the lifetime homes standard—that is, part M4 category 2—costs only £1,000 extra on new build, reducing the need for expensive adaptations later in life and keeping people independent. The LGA says that, at the current rate of housebuilding, it will take 2,000 years to achieve this standard. Worse, under 2% of new housing is required to be built to category 3, for wheelchair users, when a minimum of 10% is needed. How many units that meet category 2 and 3 have been built in the past five years?
Lord Greenhalgh (Con)
My Lords, I cannot give that particular statistic; what I can say is that we recognise the importance of getting these standards right. We have consulted very recently on options to raise the accessibility of new homes and we continue to focus on ensuring that we have homes that work for people of all ages and are suitable for older and disabled people.
Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)
Thank you. How many of the homes that have been built are net-zero carbon and, therefore, how many are left to be very expensively retrofitted for energy efficiency later?
Lord Greenhalgh (Con)
My Lords, we seem to be going around every type of housing that we could possibly build, but it is very important to recognise that we have a future homes standard, that we have set that to be in place by 2025 and that we continue to build homes that are reducing our carbon footprint—and, actually, modern methods of construction are precisely the way to do it.
Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)
My Lords, our Built Environment Committee report made it clear that, if the number of new homes is to be increased, improvements are needed in several areas of public policy, especially planning. More than half of all authorities have no local plans, with Slough the latest to drop its plan because of uncertainty. Will the Government do everything possible—there are examples in the report—to ensure that the defect is remedied and that we have homes of all tenures for everybody to live in?
Lord Greenhalgh (Con)
I thank my noble friend for all the sterling work she does on the Built Environment Committee. I recognise that there is a problem around local plans. Indeed, it is the planning lawyers who point out that we need more robust timetabling again, to ensure that local authorities undertake their duties to have a plan to shape their areas.
Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)
My Lords, local authorities are crucial to meeting the Government’s housebuilding targets, but, if they are properly to master-plan and create the new communities that we need, they need new powers. So will the Minister support the reform of our arcane land compensation laws?
Lord Greenhalgh (Con)
I look at whatever it takes to support councils in being able to build and shape their areas. An increasing number of councils are doing precisely that. This Government have enabled councils to borrow more liberally against the housing revenue account, but we will look at whatever measures we can to encourage local authorities to take a leadership role.
Lord Best (CB)
My Lords, the skills shortage in the construction industry is set to be a major problem for years to come. A solution is to attract more women into this industry, since, as your Lordships’ Built Environment Committee points out, only 4% of the construction trade’s roles are held by women. Does the Minister agree that, when rejuvenating the failed apprenticeships scheme, it would be particularly helpful if a special effort was made to recruit apprentices who are women?
Lord Greenhalgh (Con)
My Lords, of course we want to ensure that we get both men and women, and particularly women, involved in construction, but, as the Building Safety Minister, what I want to see above all is an increase in the quality and competence of the people who build our homes.
Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate (Non-Afl)
My Lords, it is agreed that there is a national shortage of housing in this country. Although greeted as a laudable policy in the Thatcher years, the sale of council houses depleted the capacity of local authorities to provide much-needed housing during emergencies. Can the Minister tell the House what steps the Government are taking to encourage and assist all local authorities to increase the renewal of the socially provided housing stock in the immediate future?
Lord Greenhalgh (Con)
I can, because it is an unprecedented amount of money: £11.5 billion for the affordable homes programme. In this programme, more than double the number of homes, 180,000 homes, will be for social rent, and a great number will be for sub-market rent. So there is a real commitment in this Government to deliver housing of all types and tenures, and in particular socially rented housing.
Viscount Waverley (CB)
My Lords, are the Government mindful that noise is a great irritant? Should local authorities consider airport growth when determining their local housing needs and avoid approving development in the proximity of airports that may be impacted, in the future, by the current and future operations of that airport? As an example, North West Leicestershire District Council, as I understand it, has a number of proposals for housing around East Midlands Airport.
Lord Greenhalgh (Con)
My Lords, there is quite a lot of noise today, but what I will say in answer to the noble Viscount’s question is that local authorities need to think about how to develop their areas for the benefit of the local community. This obviously includes building homes, but in the right place, in the right way and going with the grain of the local area. Indeed, economic development is a fundamental part of local leadership.
Lord Berkeley (Lab)
My Lords, one of the recommendations of the built environment report referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Young—and I have the honour of serving on the committee under the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe—was that the Government should encourage more small builders to build houses, rather than having a smaller number of big developers. Small, local builders will bring more local employment and new ideas, and they will generally speed up the overall housing construction.
Lord Greenhalgh (Con)
That is an incredibly good point, because the wider public sector counts for about a third of the money that is spent in the construction industry in any given year. We need to encourage small and medium-sized builders who are more innovative and bring new things with them, rather than simply the large-volume builders.
Baroness Pinnock (LD)
My Lords, I am sure that the Minister understands the difference between affordable housing and housing for social rent. In response to a previous question on social housing, the Minister’s answer was “Affordable”—which is not the same thing at all. So can the Minister help the House to understand, with construction costs soring and social housing dependent on government grants, whether the Government will increase the size of the grants so that more social housing can be built to meet the desperate need in this country?
Lord Greenhalgh (Con)
My Lords, the House will be unsurprised to know that I do understand the difference between types and tenures of housing. What I said in response to a previous question was that we had pledged to build 32 socially rented homes, and that the amount in this current programme is double that of the previous programme. To be clear, I meant 32,000 and not 32—I must get my numbers right. There is a real commitment to build not only socially rented homes but the houses between that and outright home ownership.
Building Safety Bill
Lord Greenhalgh ExcerptsTuesday 29th March 2022
(2 years, 8 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Building Safety Act 2022 View all Building Safety Act 2022 Debates Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts Amendment Paper: HL Bill 125-I(a) Amendments for Report (Supplementary to the Marshalled List) - (28 Mar 2022)
Lord Greenhalgh
“(3A) The different provision that may be made by the regulations by virtue of section 120A(2)(b) includes in particular different provision in relation to—(a) persons who are eligible to be members of a building industry scheme and are not members of that scheme, and(b) other persons.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment clarifies that regulations under this Clause may make different provision in relation to persons who are eligible, but not members, of a scheme established under Clause 128 and other persons.
The Minister of State, Home Office and Department for Levelling Up, Housing & Communities (Lord Greenhalgh) (Con)
My Lords, I am very pleased to speak to a group of amendments that will strengthen our solution in law to ensure that the industry pays to remediate all unsafe high-rise and medium-rise buildings for which it is responsible, and contributes to fund the remediation of all cladding on 11-metre to 18-metre buildings. As discussed during our debate in Committee, we need to take action against those unwilling to make these commitments and impose a solution in law to make sure that developers and manufacturers take responsibility for rectifying building safety defects—the polluter must pay.
Amendments 133 to 136 set out a number of changes to the definition of associated persons within the leaseholder protections provisions. Amendment 137 sets out that partnerships are captured within the definition of an associated company and Amendment 139 defines joint ventures. This will ensure that well-resourced companies cannot make use of complex corporate structures to evade their responsibilities. These amendments pierce the corporate veil.
Amendment 179 confers a power to make regulations to require landlords to provide information to a relevant tenant or other prescribed person
I will now speak to amendments we are making to Clauses 128 and 129, which I moved in Committee. As noble Lords may remember, these clauses give the Government the power to establish building industry schemes. We want to use this power to enable us to establish a scheme to distinguish between building industry actors who have committed to act responsibly and make buildings safe, and irresponsible actors who have failed to do so. The amendments tabled on 22 March add detail to those powers, to reflect more clearly the Government’s intentions and to provide Parliament and the public with more information on the purpose of any building industry scheme or schemes we set up, together with indicative examples of the kinds of membership conditions that eligible industry actors may need to meet to be part of a scheme.
We have made it clear that we expect the industry to act now to take responsibility for fixing building safety defects, and our principal objective in establishing a scheme under this power would be to make sure that we can hold industry to account against this and other obligations. Examples of the kinds of membership conditions that may apply to members of a scheme in connection with these purposes include: the remedying of defects in buildings to which an industry actor has a connection; and making financial contributions towards remediation of defects in buildings, including by way of contribution to a general industry fund to pay for remediation.
We may also require scheme members not to use certain construction products made by prescribed manufacturers—for example, cladding and insulation products made by manufacturers who have failed to step up and commit to an industry solution by making a financial contribution to remediating unsafe buildings.
Lord Greenhalgh (Con)
I thank noble Lords who have spoken in this long—a little over an hour on one group—but important debate on ensuring that the polluter pays. I thank the noble Baronesses, Lady Hayman and Lady Pinnock, for Amendment 22, on the levy on social housing. The noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, raised the issues of exemptions from the building safety levy for social housing providers and who the details of the buildings levy will apply to in secondary legislation.
I am pleased to inform the noble Baroness that we are considering an exemption from the levy for affordable housing as a whole, including social housing, housing for rent or sale at least 20% below market rent or sales rates, and shared ownership. The Government recognise that applying a levy to affordable housing would increase the cost of developing affordable housing and would therefore be likely to disincentivise supply, as the noble Baroness said. We consulted on this exemption for affordable housing in our consultation on the levy, which ran from July to October last year.
I hope the noble Baroness understands that her suggestion is under careful consideration and will be addressed in secondary legislation. I will probably have to roughly translate: she should be reassured that the building safety levy will not apply to public housing. That probably makes it a little easier for her to decide what she wants to do.
I turn now to Amendment 200, on the leaseholder protection fund, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, and the noble Lord, Lord Stunell, which would require the Government to use funds raised by the levy to refund leaseholders who have already paid for safety works. While a noble thing to do, the Government’s primary aim is and should be to protect leaseholders from building safety risks and enable work to be undertaken to ensure this. For this reason, we will not be able to accept the amendment.
On Amendment 221, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, for this amendment. We share her determination to make sure that the industry acts now to take responsibility for fixing building safety defects and that the burden should not fall on leaseholders or taxpayers. The whole tone of the amendment is to get on with remediation and I have great sympathy for that. The principal objective of Clauses 128 and 129 is to make sure that responsible parties pay and to enable us to hold the industry to account. The further amendment I spoke to earlier will make it clear that we can link the scheme to the planning system.
Together, these powers will allow us to monitor compliance of members of the responsible actors scheme and make sure that members take responsibility and act promptly to make buildings safe. We do not believe a 5-year deadline needs to be inserted into the Bill. Our intention is for the measure to achieve its objectives much more quickly. Those that do not meet the scheme conditions may lose scheme membership and may immediately be subject to the planning prohibition, as our amendments make clear. A focus on pace is already built into the Government’s approach. I hope this reassures the noble Baroness that her intention has been more than met by the Government through this Bill, just in another way.
I turn now to Amendment 231 on social landlords and defects, tabled by the noble Baronesses, Lady Hayman and Lady Pinnock. The Bill already makes provision to protect leaseholders from unreasonable costs and allow guilty parties to be pursued. It contains a requirement on landlords to take reasonable steps to pursue other cost recovery avenues before seeking to recover the costs of remediation works from leaseholders. They need to provide evidence to the leaseholders of the steps taken. Social landlords will have to undertake these measures, including pursuing construction companies or installers where applicable.
To help all landlords, including social landlords, the Government are bringing forward an ambitious toolkit of other measures to allow those responsible to be pursued. This includes extending the limitation period under Section 1 of the Defective Premises Act 1972 to apply retrospectively for 30 years. We are also allowing the High Courts to extend the reach of civil liability to associated companies and creating a new cause of action. This will allow manufacturers, distributors and sellers of construction products to be pursued where defective or mis-sold products have been used in the construction of a dwelling, or where further works are carried out to that dwelling, rendering it unfit for habitation. These amendments make it easier for those affected to force those responsible for defective buildings—developers and construction products manufacturers—to pay.
While we are making it easier to pursue third parties, in parallel, we continue to protect leaseholders, so they are not paying for unreasonable remediation costs. The Bill introduces new statutory provisions which provide that cladding remediation costs cannot be passed on to qualifying leaseholders in buildings over 11 metres. The law is already clear that service charges and any increase in cost must be reasonable. Finally, the Government set a rent policy for social housing which determines the maximum amount of rent that social tenants may be charged and the maximum amount by which rents may increase each year. The rent standard prevents unforeseen hikes to tenants’ rents and is enforced by the Regulator of Social Housing.
Turning now to Amendment 232 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, and the noble Lord, Lord Stunell, the service charge is the means by which fire safety costs would be recovered and the leaseholder protections measures already prevent costs being passed to leaseholders above the permitted maximum.
I now turn to Amendment 233, tabled by my noble friends Lord Young of Cookham and Lord Blencathra, which seeks to impose a duty on local authorities to pursue responsible developers. It imposes requirements on local authorities to remediate buildings with defects and to recover funds from responsible parties. If no funds can be recovered, the Secretary of State would be required to reimburse the local authority.
We have been clear that industry is responsible for remediating defective buildings. We expect developers to remediate buildings they had a role in developing or refurbishing. Where this does not happen, building owners and landlords will have new powers to pursue those responsible. Local authorities will also have powers under our new remediation orders and remediation contribution orders, as will other regulatory bodies. However, to impose a duty on local authorities to fix buildings or pursue responsible parties is not the right approach. This would absolve industry of its duty to resolve the crisis and building owners and landlords of their responsibilities to make buildings safe. It would also place an unacceptable burden on the taxpayer.
The amendment seeks to create a taxpayer backstop by requiring the Secretary of State to reimburse local authorities for costs they cannot recover. We have been very clear that it is wrong to look to the taxpayer for further funding to fix defective buildings. For these reasons, we will not be able to accept the amendment. I want to deal with the specific issue of the remediator of last resort. I understand where my noble friend Lord Young is coming from. We have asked the industry to provide a fully funded solution for both the cladding and non-cladding costs, including fixing their own buildings and contributing to a fund for the very orphan buildings he has highlighted of between 11 and 18 metres that need cladding remediation. The focus of the industry is on fixing its own buildings, and therefore we can begin to be more focused on where we apply taxpayer funds.
Finally, I address Amendments 201, 202, 229, 234, 235, 236 and 237 in the name of the noble Earl, Lord Lytton. Amendments 201 and 202 would hold the Crown liable where properties escheat—that is probably not the right pronunciation—and would prevent liquidators and trustees in bankruptcy renouncing the leases of buildings with fire safety defects. The Bill already prevents freeholders evading liability by simply escheating their properties where they do not want to pay. It also makes provisions in relation to insolvency and bankruptcy. Freeholders will still be liable where they were, or were connected to, the developer, or had a net worth over £2 million per in-scope building on 14 February. As I have said before, taxpayers should not be held liable. For this reason, I will not be able to accept these amendments. Amendment 229 is unnecessary as landlords are already prevented from passing on costs unless they have explored all other routes of funding.
I turn to the important Amendments 234 to 237. These cover building safety cost orders, providing powers to make regulations, stipulating liability and establishing a building safety cost fund. Liability for remediation costs is already set out in the Bill, as are provisions for building owners and landlords to go after associated developers, companies and manufacturers of defective products. For this reason, I will not be able to accept these amendments.
My noble friends Lady Neville-Rolfe and Lord Young of Cookham raised the position of enfranchised leaseholders and asked whether we have made life harder for them via Amendments 186 to 193. I want to be absolutely clear that nothing in the amendments increases liabilities for enfranchised leaseholders. No leaseholder will be worse off; all are measures to make the polluter pays principle apply to enfranchised leaseholders.
I hope that I have gone some way to provide assurances on the Government’s approach.
Lord Young of Cookham (Con)
Before my noble friend sits down, I am really grateful to him for the explanation he has set out but can he tell the House what happens where there is a building and no one has any money— the leaseholders cannot afford it, there is no freeholder and there is no developer or contractor to pursue? Who then puts that building right?
Lord Greenhalgh (Con)
My Lords, in practical terms, we have a £5.1 billion fund, of which we have committed the first stage of £1 billion. We have an additional £4.1 billion for buildings over 18 metres and an additional £4 billion for cladding remediation, yet we are asking industry to fix its own buildings. That gives us the ability to focus on the few buildings my noble friend is talking about, because we have got the developers that built these buildings to go on and fix them in a proportionate way and we do not have to use the core of money that we already have. Noble Lords can test the opinion of the House, but that is a practical way of dealing with the problems—focusing the current funds on those few buildings where that scenario applies.
Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)
Before the Minister sits down, I thank him very much for his response to my Amendment 22. Could he just clarify something, so that I am completely clear on it? Was he saying that the Government will exempt social housing from the levy and that an SI will be brought in? If I am correct in my understanding, I would be grateful for a meeting to discuss the detail of what he proposes will happen.
Lord Greenhalgh (Con)
My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman of Ullock, for the opportunity to clarify what I meant. In simple terms, the exemption applies to social housing. With regard to how that is implemented and the means by which we do that, I will be happy to meet the noble Baroness to set out formally how we intend to bring that forward. I have already made that comment in meetings before Report, so it has been made in public. I am happy to make that commitment on the Floor of the House and to work on how we implement that and set it out, either in writing or in a further meeting.
Lord Greenhalgh
““building industry scheme” means a scheme established under section 128 of the Building Safety Act 2022;”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment is consequential on the previous amendment to this Clause in the name of the Minister.
Lord Greenhalgh
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment is consequential on the amendments in the name of the Minister leaving out Clauses 82 to 86 (which remove provision about building safety managers).
The Earl of Lytton (CB)
I, too, commend the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, on this amendment. Given the circumstances of the Bill, the number of variations in it and the sheer number of moving parts involved, a review is essential for precisely the reasons she said, and I support the amendment.
Lord Greenhalgh (Con)
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Fox of Buckley, and my noble friend Lady Neville-Rolfe for this insightful debate.
Amendment 26 from the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, would require a review of the financial impact of the new regime. I reassure the noble Baroness that a review is already required by Clause 152, which provides that:
“The Secretary of State must appoint an independent person to carry out a review of”
the system of regulation of building safety and standards and the system of regulation for construction products. Importantly, the reviewer is not limited and may choose to review connected matters, including the matters mentioned in the noble Baronesses’ amendments.
Similarly, Amendment 246A in the name my noble friend Lady Neville-Rolfe would require a review of the impact of the Act. I apologise for the mix-up that resulted in my addressing this amendment in an earlier group. I will repeat for the record that we believe that this further replicates Clause 152 in the Bill and therefore we believe this is unnecessary.
What I do say to my noble friend is that the Secretary of State has to appoint someone to carry out the review within five years, so that is a long-stop date. I am very happy to meet my noble friend to ensure that we get going with this review at the very earliest opportunity to make sure that that long-stop date is comfortably met. We also need to make sure that this review is substantive and learns the lessons of a new regime in the broadest possible sense and addresses the points raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Fox of Buckley, as well those raised by my noble friend Lady Neville-Rolfe, who has had tremendous Front-Bench experience as well as experience as a distinguished civil servant.
With those explanations, I kindly ask the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, to withdraw her amendment and my noble friend Lady Neville-Rolfe not to press her amendment.
Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-Afl)
I will withdraw but I will come back to the Minister. I think it is important to come back to the Minister and say if it is within five years, I would like it to be brought forward sooner. I do not know why he does not just accept the two years but let us have the meeting to discuss it. At this point, I will not press the amendment and beg leave to withdraw.
Lord Greenhalgh
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment is consequential on the amendments in the name of the Minister leaving out Clauses 82 and 85.
Lord Greenhalgh
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment is consequential on the amendments in the name of the Minister leaving out Clauses 82 and 85.
Lord Greenhalgh
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment is consequential on the amendments in the name of the Minister leaving out Clauses 82 to 86 (which remove provision about building safety managers).
Lord Greenhalgh
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment and the amendments leaving out Clauses 83 to 86 in the name of the Minister remove provision about building safety managers.
Lord Greenhalgh
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment and the amendments leaving out Clauses 82 and 84 to 86 in the name of the Minister remove provision about building safety managers.
Lord Greenhalgh
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment and the amendments leaving out Clauses 82 and 83 and 85 and 86 in the name of the Minister remove provision about building safety managers.
Lord Greenhalgh
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment and the amendments leaving out Clauses 82 to 84 and 86 in the name of the Minister remove provision about building safety managers.
Lord Greenhalgh
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment and the amendments leaving out Clauses 82 to 85 in the name of the Minister remove provision about building safety managers.
Lord Greenhalgh
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment requires the strategy to be reviewed at times prescribed by regulations.
Lord Greenhalgh (Con)
I am very pleased to move a group of amendments that are focused on ensuring that leaseholders are protected from costs related to historical building safety defects. The package of leaseholder protections eradicates the idea that leaseholders should be the first port of call to pay to fix historical building safety defects. In fact, in drafting these clauses we started with the presumption that leaseholders should not have to pay anything, a sentiment that I know is shared with noble Lords from all sides of this House.
It is only right that building owners and landlords share in the costs of fixing dangerous buildings and we have carefully engineered—
Lord Cormack (Con)
I was under the impression that this was grouped with a whole group of amendments that had been debated and therefore there was no need for a further debate. If I am wrong, of course I apologise.
The Deputy Speaker (Lord Duncan of Springbank) (Con)
I will take the blame for that. I should have said moved formally and that would have encouraged the noble Lord, Lord Greenhalgh, to say “moved formally”. I will accept the admonition on that point. The noble Lord has saved the House some considerable time because I can see the page of that speech now fluttering in the wind.
Lord Greenhalgh
“(c) in prescribed circumstances, consult relevant persons and prescribed persons on the strategy and take any representations made on the consultation into account when next reviewing the strategy;(d) act in accordance with the strategy.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment requires the principal accountable person to consult on the residents’ engagement strategy, and to act in accordance with the strategy.
Lord Greenhalgh
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment is a drafting change.
Lord Greenhalgh
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment is consequential on the amendments in the name of the Minister leaving out Clauses 82 to 86 (which remove provision about building safety managers).
Lord Greenhalgh
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment is consequential on the amendments in the name of the Minister leaving out Clauses 82 and 85.
Lord Greenhalgh
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment is a drafting change.
Lord Greenhalgh
“Building safety directors of resident management companies
(1) This section applies in relation to a resident management company that is an accountable person for a higher-risk building.(2) The articles of association of the resident management company have effect as if they included such provision as may be prescribed relating to—(a) eligibility for appointment as a director of the company, for a building safety purpose;(b) the appointment of a director for such a purpose;(c) the entitlement to remuneration of a director appointed for such a purpose;(d) the removal of a director so appointed.(3) Subsection (2) has effect—(a) whether or not the provision is adopted by the company;(b) whether the company was formed before or after the coming into force of this section;(c) notwithstanding anything in the company’s articles of association.(4) In this section—“building safety purpose” means the purpose of supporting the resident management company in complying with its duties under this Part or under regulations made under this Part;“resident management company” has the meaning given by regulations made by the Secretary of State.”Member’s explanatory statement
This new Clause makes provision about directors of a resident management company that is an accountable person.
Lord Greenhalgh
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment is consequential on other amendments to this Clause in the name of the Minister.
Lord Greenhalgh
“30DA Liability for remuneration of building safety director of resident management company etc(1) This section applies to a lease of premises which consist of or include a dwelling in a higher-risk building if—(a) the landlord is an accountable person for the building,(b) the landlord is—(i) a resident management company within the meaning of section (Building safety directors of resident management companies) of the Building Safety Act 2022, or(ii) an RTM company within the meaning of Chapter 1 of Part 2 of the Commonhold and Leasehold Reform Act 2002 (right to manage), and(c) the tenant is liable to pay a service charge.(2) The lease has effect—(a) as if the matters for which the service charge is payable under the lease included remunerating any director of the landlord appointed for a building safety purpose (insofar as this would not otherwise be the case), and (b) where the lease contains different methods for apportioning different relevant costs (within the meaning of section 18), as if it provided that any costs for which the tenant is liable by virtue only of paragraph (a) to be apportioned in the same way as costs incurred in connection with insuring the building.(3) In this section—“building safety purpose” means the purpose of supporting the landlord in complying with its duties under Part 4 of the Building Safety Act 2022 or under regulations made under that Part;“landlord” includes any person who has a right under the lease to enforce payment of a service charge;“service charge” has the meaning given by section 18;“tenant” includes any person who has an obligation under the lease to pay a service charge.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment makes provision for the recovery from tenants of costs incurred by a residents’ company in remunerating a director of the company, appointed in connection with its building safety duties.
Lord Greenhalgh
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment is consequential on the second amendment in the name of the Minister at page 119, line 36.
Lord Greenhalgh
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment is consequential on the removal of the building safety charge as a separate charge.
Lord Greenhalgh
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment is consequential on amendments to Clause 115 removing the building safety charge as a separate charge.
Lord Greenhalgh
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment is consequential on the amendment in the name of the Minister leaving out Clause 82.
Lord Greenhalgh (Con)
My Lords, I was a little slow in rising to introduce the government amendments. I was, perhaps, a little punch drunk after the length of the debate today.
It is only right, and I am sure we all agree, that building owners and landlords should share in the cost of fixing dangerous buildings. We have carefully engineered this Bill to ensure that those responsible, and otherwise those with the broadest shoulders, will be the first who are required to pay. Where there is no party that clearly should pay in full, and only in this scenario, our approach spreads the costs fairly and equitably and, above all, ensures that the most vulnerable leaseholders are protected. These measures are a robust and unprecedented legislative intervention, reversing the existing legal presumption that leaseholders must bear the costs of historical building safety defects.
The Government have listened to the comments raised by noble Lords, and we have tabled amendments which go even further in protecting leaseholders. Before I set out the detail of these further protections, I would like to be clear that the protections we are putting in place are extensive and, as noble Lords will be well aware, that these must remain in balance with the demands placed on landlords and building owners in ensuring that building safety defects are fixed and paid for where no wrongdoing on their part has taken place. There is an element of fairness here that we need to deliver. The Bill changes the private contract between the landlord and the leaseholder by stating that leaseholders will not pay any costs except in certain circumstances. Government can do this if it is in the general interest to do so, provided there is a fair balance between all the parties. Therefore, we need to make sure that the Bill is both proportionate and fair to all parties.
As I have said, leaseholders need to be protected, and we have brought in the most wide-ranging and expansive set of protections ever seen, allowing the courts to look through to associated companies to find both who is responsible and who has funds to remediate properties as there is no point in having money while properties remain unsafe. However, we are also aware that not all landlords were involved with the developer or have deep pockets, and we need to make sure that we consider the issue of building safety from all sides. We have therefore legislated on the side of the landlords by providing numerous robust routes for recovery of funds from those truly responsible: developers and the manufacturers of defective construction products.
To be clear, and bearing in mind my noble friends’ proposed amendments, let me put their minds at rest. The Bill makes it very clear that leaseholders will not pay anything in the majority of cases. These are where the landlord is the developer or is linked to the developer, where the landlord is wealthy and, finally, where the leaseholder’s property is valued at less than £325,000 inside London and £175,000 outside.
Where these absolute protections do not apply, the leaseholder’s contributions will be heavily capped. On leaseholder contribution caps, it is important to bear in mind that these caps are a maximum that leaseholders can be charged, not a target, and that, as above, they apply only where the landlord is not linked to the developer and cannot afford to pay in full. In addition, costs paid out in the past five years, including for interim costs such as waking watches, will count against the caps. Overall, we consider that in most cases leaseholders will not have to pay the full capped amount and many will pay nothing at all. Nevertheless, the Government agree it is critical that those leaseholders who are least likely to be able to afford to contribute towards historical remediation costs receive the greatest protection. That is why we have tabled amendments to provide that any qualifying lease with a value below £175,000, or £325,000 in Greater London, will be protected from all costs relating to non-cladding defects and interim measures. This is in addition to the protections for cladding remediation costs, which apply to all qualifying leases, and to all leases in buildings owned by or connected to developers.
Amendment 164 sets out that the value of a qualifying lease at the qualifying time is to be determined by the most recent sale price on the open market, prior to 14 February this year, uprated in accordance with the UK House Price Index published by the Office for National Statistics. Uprating values for this purpose will be set out in legislation.
Amendments 118 and 119 expand the definition of “enfranchised buildings” to ensure that all types of enfranchised buildings are covered.
We have listened very carefully to concerns about leaseholder affordability in the small number of cases where leaseholders are paying up to the caps. That is why we have tabled Amendment 166, to double the repayment period from five to 10 years. For leaseholders whose property is not below the threshold and whose building owner or landlord is not liable for the full remediation costs, Amendment 166 will mean that with regard to the capped costs the monthly repayments will be halved.
We have also listened carefully to those who were worried about buy-to-let investors who may be holding leasehold properties instead of a pension. As a result, we have amended Clause 121 to provide that people owning up to three UK properties qualify for the protections. As before, the principal home will always qualify, irrespective of how many additional properties are owned.
As well as going further to protect leaseholders, we have tabled a number of amendments which add key detail to the measures. We are clear that developers must fix the buildings they developed. That is why we have tabled Amendments 141 to 143 to Schedule 9, which clearly state that, where the landlord is or is linked to the developer, they will not be able to pass costs on to any leaseholder. This includes non-qualifying leaseholders such as commercial leaseholders and those with more than three UK properties. We have also tabled Amendment 145, which extends the definition of a developer to include persons who were in a joint venture with the developer. If you commissioned the work, you will also count as the developer.
We have also tabled Amendment 152, which will amend Schedule 9 to provide that where the landlord meets the contribution condition—defined as having a total net worth of more than £2 million per in-scope building as of 14 February 2022—they will not be able to pass any costs on to qualifying leaseholders. The calculation for net worth will be set out in regulations and will take into account parent and associated companies. This will ensure that those who have used complex corporate structures, such as special purpose vehicles, cannot evade liability where they can afford to meet the costs of remediation.
We are also amending Clauses 120 and 122 on the definitions for relevant buildings, landlords and works. These amendments will extend provisions to include work undertaken to remedy a defect and will clarify that buildings that are leaseholder-owned are out of scope because, in such buildings, the leaseholders are effectively the freeholders as well. With Amendment 121, we set out how the height of an in-scope building and its number of storeys will be calculated.
Amendments to Clauses 122 and 136 cover further definitions, including clarifying that associated partnerships are included, as the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, raised in Committee. Amendment 169 to Schedule 9 inserts a new definition of cladding remediation, which now means the removal or replacement of any part of a cladding system that forms the outer wall of an external wall system and is unsafe.
Amendments 170 and 171 provide that the landlord cannot pass on costs to a qualifying leaseholder relating to professional services, in addition to legal costs. Amendment 177 provides that certain leases are taken to be qualifying leases without the tenant providing a certificate, unless steps are taken. It also provides that landlords are taken to have met the contribution condition unless they provide a certificate proving otherwise. This means that the legal burden will be on the landlord to prove that they are entitled to pass on capped remediation costs.
The amendments also make minor technical and consequential amendments to clauses to ensure the provisions work as intended, remove extraneous powers and commence the provisions two months after Royal Assent.
It is right that leaseholders be protected from extortionate costs of remediating historical building safety defects, in a manner that balances the demands placed on landlords and building owners, where no wrongdoing on their part has taken place. I ask your Lordships to welcome and support this significant and important set of amendments, which go further to protect leaseholders and provide that fair balance.
Baroness Pinnock (LD)
My Lords, this is probably the most important group of amendments we are considering today, because it is absolutely at the heart of the building safety scandal that started nearly five years ago with the loss of 72 people in the Grenfell fire. I always think it is worth remembering that: 72 people died and the lives of many families were changed for ever, and that happened because of systemic and long-term failures in the construction industry.
It is also worth remembering that leaseholders since that time have found themselves under the enormous pressure of anxiety when they receive invoices, maybe for £100,000 or more. Some of them have not been able to cope with that level of anxiety, thinking that nothing would change, and have chosen bankruptcy as a consequence and therefore lost everything they had saved and worked for. For some whom I have heard about, sadly, this pressure may have contributed to something even worse: in the face of the bills and a long dark tunnel with no solution, they ended their lives. That is the backdrop. That is the tragic impact this has had on individuals across the country, and which has brought us to this place. This set of amendments is at the heart of those concerns.
I first raised my worries about leaseholders being liable for all the costs of cladding, removal and remediation of all the fire safety defects when the Fire Safety Bill was first debated in 2020. Unfortunately, I did not succeed in amending it at that stage, but what has happened since has been remarkable—the number of people on all sides of the House who have taken up the cudgels to argue the case, rightly, for justice for leaseholders. I give enormous credit to the cladding campaigners from all groups and different cities around the country who have got together and done the investigation, found the facts and put the case to the Government, who, to their credit, have listened and made the changes we have seen today. I think there are over 200 government amendments to the Bill today.
The question of justice for leaseholders is still at the heart of the Bill, and I contend that the Government still have not gone far enough in fulfilling what the Secretary of State and the Minister have said: that they should not pay a penny. They have done everything right and nothing wrong. They should not pay anything towards this remediation, because the flammable cladding, sometimes knowingly, was put on buildings, as was exposed in the Grenfell inquiry. Shoddy construction, sometimes deliberate, to cut corners and save costs, has also been exposed during the Grenfell inquiry.
I want to speak to Amendment 156 in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Stunell, but also to Amendment 155 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, and to Amendments 158 and 159 in the names of the noble Lords, Lord Young of Cookham and Lord Blencathra, and the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, to which I have added my name. They focus on trying to solve the problem of justice for leaseholders, who should not pay a penny.
Unfortunately, the Minister has said today that “the majority” will not pay. Well, if the majority will not pay, the minority will—and the minority should not, because none of this is of their making. My Amendment 156 seeks to establish that what the leaseholder should pay is a peppercorn—a grand, historical way of saying zero, zilch. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Young of Cookham, for his support for Amendment 155 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, which uses the word “zero”. I use “peppercorn”, but they get to the same place, and he has acknowledged the justice of this case.
Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)
My Lords, this has been an extremely important debate in which we have covered some of the critical issues still outstanding in the Bill. I thank the Minister for the introduction to the amendments. Many of them are good, but we believe there are still problems that need to be sorted out.
I will be brief. I thank the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, for his introduction to Amendment 115. If he decides to divide the House, he will have our support on that amendment.
I turn to my Amendment 155. It is really important that we take account of the principle that has been referred to by other noble Lords: there should be no cost to people who have done nothing wrong. It is not the fault of leaseholders that they have been left with these huge costs. We believe it is desperately unfair to force them to pay a penny, which is why my amendment has the word “zero” in it. As mentioned by the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, we must not forget the strain on the mental health of leaseholders. They need clear and proper support, and they are relying on your Lordships to do the right thing by them. To me, this is a moral question. Should leaseholders pay costs that, for many, will still be huge despite the caps proposed by the Government? They are blameless; they should pay nothing.
I thank the noble Lord, Lord Marks, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope of Craighead, for clearly laying out the legal position. It has been important for me to hear that from them, and the detail that they have provided, having had discussions with the Government on their concerns about the ECHR. I also thank the noble Lords, Lord Young of Cookham and Lord Blencathra, and the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, for their support.
I confirm that I intend to divide the House on Amendment 155. If it fails to pass, I will be happy to support the noble Lords, Lord Blencathra and Lord Young, on Amendment 158.
Lord Greenhalgh (Con)
My Lords, I spoke to the government amendments as I hoped it would assist the House to have the Government’s views. With the permission of the House, I will now speak again in reply to the points raised by noble Lords on the non-government amendments that they have tabled.
Amendments 155 to 160 and Amendments 162 to 163 deal with leaseholder contribution caps. I thank noble Lords for their contributions and constructive approach, but I am afraid that the Government will not be able to accept these amendments. It is important to bear in mind that leaseholder contributions apply only in certain circumstances, and even then, only when a series of other steps have been exhausted. The caps do not apply at all in relation to cladding defects, nor do they apply where the value of the flat is less than £175,000 outside Greater London and £325,000 inside.
The caps only apply where the building owner or landlord is not linked to the developer and cannot afford to pay in full, where the developer cannot be made to fix their own building, and where the building owners have exhausted all reasonable steps to recover costs from third parties. Leaseholder contributions will only apply where there is no clear developer or wealthy landlord to meet the costs in full, and the party responsible for defective work cannot be identified. The Government consider that this will occur only in a minority of circumstances.
Where there is no party that clearly should pay in full—and only then—our approach spreads the costs fairly and equitably across those with an interest in the building and ensures above all that the most vulnerable leaseholders are protected. The Government’s latest amendments go even further in protecting leaseholders. Where the freeholder or landlord is not at fault and cannot pay to meet the costs, we need to ensure a proportionate approach that takes into account the interests of all parties. That is why our approach spreads the costs equitably among all relevant parties with an interest in the building.
The amendments tabled by the noble Baronesses, Lady Hayman and Lady Pinnock, and—
Lord Cormack (Con)
Can my noble friend quantify how many people he expects will be paying? What is the maximum amount they will pay?
Lord Greenhalgh (Con)
I cannot quantify the exact amount people will pay, but it is fair to say that we have set out a fundamental system of protection that admittedly does not go as far as the zero or peppercorn proposed in opposition amendments, but it does go a considerable way to ensuring that leaseholders are the last in line to pay, as opposed to the first.
As I said, the amendments tabled by the noble Baronesses, Lady Hayman and Lady Pinnock, and the noble Lord, Lord Stunell, seek to reduce leaseholder contributions to zero or a peppercorn. Where there is no clear party that must pay, it would not achieve a fair balance between relevant parties to transfer the costs in full to the freeholder or landlord. I appreciate that that opinion seems to vary from that of noble Lord, Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames, but that is the government position.
Amendments tabled by my noble friends Lord Young and Lord Blencathra propose to reduce the leaseholder contribution caps, and another amendment proposes alternatively that the contribution is 1% of the lease value. The Government have already taken significant and far-reaching steps to protect leaseholders, protecting those in lower value properties and doubling the repayment period to 10 years. On that basis, I ask the noble Lords not to move their amendments.
Government Amendment 164 provides for the value of a lease to be determined without the need for a valuation. It allows for the value of the lease to be determined by uprating the most recent sale price prior to 14 February 2022. The uprating, which will be set out in regulations, will ensure all properties are compared on a level playing field. The uprating will be based on a metric called the house price index which tracks house prices. This will allow properties to be assigned a nominal present-day value.
Amendment 165, tabled by my noble friends Lord Young and Lord Blencathra, proposes that the value of the lease would be based solely on its most recent sale price. I am afraid the Government will not be able to accept this amendment as it would put leaseholders who have purchased their properties more recently at a significant disadvantage. The Government consider it important that properties are compared like for like, irrespective of when they were last sold. On that basis, I ask my noble friends not to move to their amendments.
I will turn now to Amendments 123 and 124, which deal with the definition of a qualifying lease. The Government have already tabled amendments which will see people with a total of up to three UK properties eligible for the protections. Amendment 123, tabled by my noble friends Lord Young and Lord Blencathra, proposes to increase this to a total of up to five UK properties. Amendment 124, tabled by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of St Albans, proposes to increase the total to six for individuals in receipt of a state pension. I am afraid that the Government will not be able to accept these amendments.
As I have previously discussed, it is important that the Government take a proportionate approach and ensure that our measures are fair to all parties. This includes considering where certain groups of leaseholders are likely, on average, to be able to afford to contribute to the costs of remediation. The Government need to focus their protections on those who need it most, primarily leaseholders living in their own homes and those who have moved out and are subletting. We also recognise concerns about people with small numbers of additional properties, and that is why we are ensuring those with up to three UK properties will be protected.
Lord Greenhalgh
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment removes the power to make supplementary provision, in consequence of the proposed new Clause after Clause 120 in the name of the Minister.
Lord Greenhalgh
“Section 120: height of buildings and number of storeys
(1) This section applies for the purpose of section 120.(2) The height of a building is to be measured from ground level to the finished surface of the floor of the top storey of the building (ignoring any storey which is a roof-top machinery or plant area or consists exclusively of machinery or plant rooms).(3) When determining the number of storeys in a building—(a) any storey below ground level is to be disregarded;(b) any mezzanine floor is to be regarded as a storey if its internal floor area is at least half of the internal floor area of the largest storey in the building which is not below ground level.(4) In subsection (2) “ground level”, in relation to a building, means—(a) the level of the surface of the ground immediately adjacent to the building, or(b) where the level of the surface of the ground on which the building is situated is not uniform, the level of the lowest part of the surface of the ground immediately adjacent to it.(5) For the purposes of subsection (3) a storey is “below ground level” if any part of the finished surface of the ceiling of the storey is below the level of the surface of the ground immediately adjacent to that part of the building.”Member’s explanatory statement
This new Clause sets out how the height of a building, and the number of storeys, is to be calculated.
Lord Greenhalgh
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment provides that a lease may be a qualifying lease if a relevant tenant owns no more than two dwellings (excluding their interest under the lease).
Lord Greenhalgh
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment ensures that subsection (4)(b) does not apply to Scotland (as the word “ownership” suffices for property in Scotland).
Lord Greenhalgh
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment is a drafting change.
Lord Greenhalgh
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment is a drafting change.
Lord Greenhalgh
““joint venture” includes a partnership (as defined by section 123);”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment defines “joint venture” for the purposes of the Schedule.
Lord Greenhalgh
“No service charge payable if landlord meets contribution condition
3A_(1) No service charge is payable under a qualifying lease in respect of a relevant measure relating to any relevant defect if the landlord under the lease at the qualifying time (“the relevant landlord”) met the contribution condition.(2) The contribution condition is that the landlord group’s net worth at the qualifying time was more than N x £2,000,000,where N is the number of relevant buildings within sub-paragraph (3).(3) A relevant building is within this sub-paragraph if a member of the landlord group was, at the qualifying time, a landlord under a lease of the relevant building or any part of it.(4) For the purposes of this paragraph—(a) “the landlord group” means the relevant landlord and any person associated with the relevant landlord;(b) the net worth of the landlord group at the qualifying time is to be determined in accordance with regulations made by the Secretary of State.(5) The Secretary of State may by regulations amend the amount for the time being specified in sub-paragraph (2).(6) This paragraph does not apply if, at the qualifying time, the relevant landlord was—(a) a private registered provider of social housing (as to which see section 80 of the Housing and Regeneration Act 2008),(b) a local authority (as defined by section 29), or(c) a prescribed person.” Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment provides that no service charge is payable under a qualifying lease in respect of a relevant measure relating to any relevant defect if the landlord met the condition mentioned in the paragraph (relating to net worth).
Lord Greenhalgh
(a) £325,000, if the premises demised by the qualifying lease are in Greater London;(b) £175,000, in any other case.(2) For the purposes of this paragraph the value of a qualifying lease at the qualifying time is its value determined in accordance with paragraph 6 and regulations made under it.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment provides that no service charge is payable under a qualifying lease in respect of a relevant measure relating to any relevant defect if the value of the lease at the qualifying time is less than the amount mentioned in the amendment.
Lord Greenhalgh
(a) the value of the qualifying lease at that time is to be determined as if the tenant’s total share at that time was 100%;(b) ”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment provides that where the qualifying lease is a shared ownership lease the value of it at the qualifying time is to be determined as if the tenant's share at that time was 100%.
Lord Greenhalgh
“(6A) The regulations may in particular provide that, except in prescribed cases, the value of a qualifying lease at the qualifying time is to be determined by—(a) ascertaining the consideration given on the latest disposal of the qualifying lease on the open market to have been made before that time, and(b) if that disposal occurred before 2022, uprating the consideration in accordance with the regulations.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment mentions the kind of provision that may be made by regulations under paragraph 6(6).
Lord Greenhalgh
“(1) A relevant service charge which would otherwise be payable under a qualifying lease is payable only if (and so far as) the sum of—(a) the amount of the service charge, and(b) the total amount of relevant service charges which fell due in the period of 12 months ending with the day on which the service charge fell due,does not exceed one tenth of the permitted maximum.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment removes the existing power to make regulations, and provides that a service charge in respect of a relevant measure is payable only so far as the total of such service charges in any 12 month period does not exceed one tenth of the permitted maximum.
Lord Greenhalgh
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment is a drafting change.
Lord Greenhalgh
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment provides that an order may be made in respect of a partnership.
Lord Greenhalgh
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment provides that a person acting as an insolvency practitioner in relation to the company may apply for an order under this Clause.
Lord Greenhalgh
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment is a drafting change.
Lord Greenhalgh
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment is a drafting change.
Lord Greenhalgh
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment has the effect of allowing regulations to require notifications to be given about development other than notifications relating only to the proposed beginning of development.
Lord Greenhalgh
“(1A) The descriptions of persons which may be prescribed include in particular persons who—(a) are eligible to be members of a scheme established under section 128, and(b) are not members of that scheme.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment provides that the descriptions of persons in relation to whom regulations may impose a building control prohibition under this Clause include, in particular, persons who are eligible to be members of a scheme established under Clause 128 but are not members of that scheme.
Lord Greenhalgh
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment has the effect of applying this clause to Wales.
Lord Greenhalgh
“Order for information in connection with building liability order
(1) A person of a prescribed description may apply to the High Court for an information order.(2) An “information order” is an order requiring a specified body corporate to give, by a specified time, specified information or documents relating to persons who are or have at any time in a specified period been, associates of the body corporate.(3) An information order may be made only if it appears to the court—(a) that the body corporate is subject to a relevant liability (within the meaning of section 132), and(b) that it is appropriate to require the information or documents to be provided for the purpose of enabling the applicant (or the applicant and others) to make, or consider whether to make, an application for a building liability order.(4) In this section—“associate” has the meaning given by section 133; “building liability order”: see section 132;“prescribed” means prescribed by regulations made by the Secretary of State;“specified” means specified in the information order.”Member’s explanatory statement
This new Clause provides that a person prescribed by regulations may make an application to the High Court for an order requiring a body corporate to give information relating to persons who are associates of the body corporate and sets out when the High Court may make the order.
Lord Greenhalgh
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment is a drafting change.
Lord Greenhalgh
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment clarifies that a home created by, for example, extending an existing building will be a “new build home” for the purposes of the new homes ombudsman scheme.
Lord Greenhalgh
“New build home warranties
(1) This section applies where a person (“the developer”) carries out a development in England that results in the creation of one or more dwellings (“new build homes”).(2) The developer must, at the time of or before granting or disposing of a relevant interest in a new build home—(a) provide to the purchaser a new build home warranty for the new build home, and(b) provide to a prescribed person a new build home warranty for any common parts.(3) A “new build home warranty” for a thing is an arrangement, satisfying any requirements under subsection (4), under which—(a) the developer agrees, in specified circumstances, to remedy any specified defect (or any defect) in the thing occurring in a specified period, and(b) a prescribed person obtains the benefit of a policy of insurance relating to specified defects (or any defects) in the thing.“Specified” here means specified in the arrangement.(4) The Secretary of State may by regulations impose requirements about new build home warranties, including in particular requirements as to—(a) the kinds of defect which the developer must agree to remedy;(b) the circumstances in which the developer must agree to remedy a defect (including the minimum duration of the period mentioned in subsection (3)(a));(c) the developer agreeing to meet prescribed costs incurred by a person occupying a new build home, where works to remedy a defect are carried out;(d) the policy of insurance (including risks that must be covered, the minimum amount of cover, the minimum duration of the period of cover, and the maximum amount of any excess);(e) the solvency of the insurer or underwriter;(f) the standard of service provided by or on behalf of the insurer in relation to the policy;(g) the ability of a person who has the benefit of the warranty to transfer that benefit to another person. (5) The regulations must provide that the period of cover under the policy of insurance must be at least 15 years beginning with the day on which the relevant interest is granted or disposed of.(6) In this section—“carries out a development”: the reference to a person carrying out a development is to undertaking or commissioning—(a) the construction of a building, or(b) the conversion of, or carrying out of any other works to, a building,with a view to granting, or disposing of, relevant interests in one or more dwellings created as a result of the construction, conversion or carrying out of works;“common parts”, in relation to a new build home, means any part of a building, where—(a) that part is provided for the use, benefit and enjoyment of the residents of the new build home and the residents of other dwellings (whether alone or with other persons), and(b) the right to use that part is conferred in connection with the grant or disposal of the relevant interest in the new build home;“defect”: any reference to a defect includes, in relation to land, contamination;“prescribed” means prescribed by regulations made by the Secretary of State;“purchaser” means the person to whom the relevant interest is granted or disposed of;“relevant interest” means a legal estate which is—(a) an estate in fee simple absolute in possession, or(b) a term of years absolute granted for a term of more than 21 years from the date of the grant.”Member’s explanatory statement
This new Clause imposes, on a developer of new build homes, a requirement to provide a “new build home warranty” complying with the requirements imposed under the clause.
Lord Greenhalgh
“Liability relating to construction productsLiability relating to construction products: general definitions
In this section, section (Liability relating to construction products) and (Liability for past defaults relating to cladding products)—“the 1991 Regulations” means the Construction Products Regulations 1991 (S.I. 1991/1620);“the 2011 Regulation” means Regulation (EU) No. 305/2011 (regulation laying down harmonised conditions for the marketing of construction products);“the 2019 Regulations” means the Construction Products (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019 (S.I. 2019/465);“construction products regulations” means regulations under paragraph 1 of Schedule 12;“construction product requirement” means a requirement under—(a) construction products regulations,(b) the 2011 Regulation, or(c) the 2019 Regulations;“relevant building” means—(a) a building which consists of a dwelling, or(b) a building which contains two or more dwellings;“relevant interest”, in relation to a building in England and Wales, means—(a) in a case where the building consists of a dwelling, a legal or equitable interest in the building, and(b) in a case where the building contains one or more dwellings, a legal or equitable interest in—(i) the building, or(ii) any dwelling contained in the building;“relevant interest”, in relation to a building in Scotland, means—(a) in a case where the building consists of a dwelling, any right or interest (including a servitude or heritable security) in or over the building, and(b) in a case where the building contains one or more dwellings, any right or interest (including a servitude or heritable security) in or over—(i) the building, or(ii) any dwelling contained in the building;“requirement” includes a prohibition or restriction.”Member’s explanatory statement
This new Clause contains definitions relevant to the next two new Clauses tabled by the Minister.
Lord Greenhalgh
“(2) Construction products regulations may under paragraph 20(1)(c) make consequential provision amending section (Liability relating to construction products), which may in particular include the omission or amendment of subsection (2)(b) and (c) of that section.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment is to enable construction product regulations to make consequential amendments to the Clause relating to liability in respect of construction products.
Lord Greenhalgh
“(4) Where—(a) a relevant company is an accountable person for a higher-risk building (within the meaning of Part 4), and (b) one or more (but not all) directors of the relevant company have been appointed for a building safety purpose and are entitled to remuneration from the company,this section, so far as relating to Part 4, does not apply in relation to a director who is not entitled to remuneration from the relevant company.(5) In subsection (4)—“building safety purpose” means the purpose of supporting the relevant company in complying with its duties under Part 4 or under regulations made under that Part;“relevant company” means—(a) a resident management company within the meaning of section (Building safety directors of resident management companies),(b) an RTM company within the meaning of Chapter 1 of Part 2 of the Commonhold and Leasehold Reform Act 2002 (right to manage), or(c) a company that is a commonhold association within the meaning of Part 1 of that Act (see section 34).”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment provides that, in relation to certain residents’ companies, this Clause - so far as relating to Part 4 - does not apply to unpaid directors if there are paid directors, appointed for a building safety purpose.
Lord Greenhalgh
“(da) sections (New build home warranties) and (New build home warranties: financial penalties) (new build home warranties);”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment provides for the new Clauses on new build home warranties to bind the Crown.
Lord Greenhalgh
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment is consequential on the removal of the power to make regulations under Clause 120(2)(c).
Lord Greenhalgh
“(da) sections (Costs contribution orders: general definitions) to (Costs contribution orders: assessments) (costs contribution orders);”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment secures that the new Clauses relating to costs contribution orders extend to the whole of the United Kingdom.
Lord Greenhalgh
“(za) sections 119 to 127 and Schedule 9;”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment provides for the provisions on the remediation of certain defects to come into force two months after Royal Assent.
Lord Greenhalgh
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment is a drafting change.