Leaseholders and Cladding

Lord Greenhalgh Excerpts

Wednesday 25th November 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, I refer the House to my relevant interests, as set out in the register. We are clearly making some progress with this Statement, but we need absolute clarity that no leaseholder or tenant will face any cost as a result of this scandal. Does the Minister accept that tenants and leaseholders are the innocent victims here? Does he also accept that redress for this scandal has to be by the builders who built the unsafe buildings, the people who signed them off as safe, and those organisations which provided insurances, warranties, guarantees and protections? It is regrettable that some of these companies are now trying to wriggle out of obligations that they gave.

[The Minister of State, Home Office and Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government (Lord Greenhalgh) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government do accept that leaseholders are victims in this situation. We recognise that the £1.6 billion of public funding that has been put up so far to pay for the costs of cladding remediation go some way to protecting leaseholders from the costs they face. We also recognise that this public funding does not absolve the industry from taking responsibility.

[Baroness Pinnock (LD) [V]]

My Lords, I draw the attention of the House to my relevant interests in the register. I echo what the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, just said about the growing public concern over this issue. The Health and Safety Executive gave evidence to the House of Commons scrutiny committee on the building safety Bill, which includes some clauses on cladding and fire safety of buildings. It said in the committee’s report that leaseholders should not

“have to worry about the cost of fixing historic safety defects in their buildings that they did not cause.”

Does the Minister agree with the Government’s own Health and Safety Executive?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, with the greatest respect, the bill for remediation of historic cladding defects cannot simply be passed to the taxpayer. We expect developers, investors and building owners who have the means to cover remediation costs themselves to do so without passing on costs to leaseholders.

[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (CB) [V]]

How many freeholders have been asked to pay for this remedial work on the buildings they commissioned on their land, and how many of those who built these dangerous dwellings, who all gain profit from the sale of leasehold properties? What legislation do the Government plan to bring forward to move from leasehold to co-ownership for multioccupancy buildings?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, in addition to other ministerial responsibilities, I am now responsible for looking at leasehold reform. This is not the place to opine on that, but just over 50% of private sector developers and freeholders with aluminium composite material in high-rises funded it and did not pass on the costs to leaseholders—a significant proportion stepped up to the plate and did the right thing.

[Lord Blencathra (Con)]

My Lords, I declare a possible interest as someone who might be affected. One million leaseholders will still be ripped off by landlords, freeholders and agents who will carry out all possible so-called remediation works and gold-plate them to increase the value of their holdings and make leaseholders pay through the nose for them. Will my noble friend confirm that the Government will bring forward an amendment to the Fire Safety Bill stating that leaseholders will not pay a penny for remedial works but will deal with the genuine anomaly of wear and tear and service charges, for which they should pay? Will he also bring forward urgent legislation on leasehold reform and the full abolition of this iniquitous, prehistoric law which should have no place in a levelled-up society?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend—that will be about five minutes’ work. I agree that leaseholders must be protected from unaffordable costs, particularly if these are driven by unnecessary gold-plating. I agree that leasehold reform needs to be an absolute priority, and it is a priority for this Government.

[Lord Polak (Con)]

My Lords, I am pleased to be able to follow my noble friend Lord Blencathra. The HCLG report published yesterday argued, correctly, that leaseholders should not be expected to foot the bill for failures not of their own making. Some property owners have taken the necessary steps, supported by the Government—and therefore the taxpayer—through funding, but sadly so many others have not. Can my noble friend tell me what I can say to Charlie, Rebecca and their baby, who bought their new build leasehold flat five years ago? The block failed the ESW1 process and the review found flammable cladding, combustible insulation, timber balconies and more. They are trapped in a flat that could go up in flames and have repair bills that could break them financially.

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, my noble friend must point out to them that this Government have an iron resolve to make sure that developers step up to the plate. They have made significant profits on those developments and will want to make profits in the future. We need to make them pay; we need to reason with them and say that it is no good laying this at the door of the taxpayer. They will have to step up to the plate. I will ensure that this Government make every endeavour to make them do so.

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

My Lords, 36 years ago, when I had my noble friend’s job at the then Department of the Environment, I put on the statute book the Housing Defects Act 1984. In a nutshell, it compensated homeowners who found that their homes were unsaleable, through no fault of their own, and had no other form of compensation coming from the Government. Does my noble friend think that that legislation has relevance to today’s leaseholders? Would he welcome my advice on how to persuade the Treasury to pay for it?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, there is no problem in public life that has not been seen before. My noble friend makes a valuable point and I will indeed ask my officials to look into the ways in which the Housing Defects Act of 1984, when I was doing my A-levels, and the Housing Act of 1988, when I left university, were used to address the issues we face today.

[The Lord Speaker (Lord Fowler)]

I call the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe. There is no reply.

Business and Planning Act 2020 (London Spatial Development Strategy) (Coronavirus) (Amendment) Regulations 2020

Lord Greenhalgh Excerpts

Wednesday 25th November 2020 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Lord Greenhalgh]

That the Grand Committee do consider the Business and Planning Act 2020 (London Spatial Development Strategy) (Coronavirus) (Amendment) Regulations 2020.

Relevant document: 34th Report from the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee

[The Minister of State, Home Office and Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government (Lord Greenhalgh) (Con)]

My Lords, these regulations were laid in draft before this House on 2 November. If approved and made, they would roll forward the existing temporary disapplication of the legal requirements for the Mayor of London to keep his current spatial development strategy available for public inspection and to provide a hard copy on request. Of course, the strategy must be available for inspection free of charge online.

These regulations are part of a wider package of government measures to ensure that the English town planning system can continue to play its role and operate safely and efficiently during the coronavirus pandemic. The Plain English translation of the Mayor of London’s spatial development strategy is the London Plan—that is how it is referred to in local government.

The rules that authorities must follow when preparing plans, including consultation and the documents which must be made available at each stage, are set out in law. Earlier this year, in response to the coronavirus pandemic and with the support of stakeholders, the Government amended these rules. In the interests of public safety and to ensure that plans could progress through the system and support economic recovery, we made some changes.

We temporarily removed requirements for authorities to make plans and other related documents available for inspection at council offices and other places, since these offices are either closed or restricted in terms of who can access them. We also removed the requirement for hard copies of these documents to be provided on request. Documents are still required to be made available on the authority’s website.

We also published government guidance on how authorities should consider how they can continue to promote effective community engagement by means which are reasonably practicable, in particular, to reach those sections of the community that do not have internet access. Because of the current level of uncertainty about the future spread of coronavirus, we have proposed to roll these measures forward for 12 months, from the point they expire on 31 December 2020.

My officials have discussed the current measures with the Local Government Association’s planning advisory service and the Planning Officer Society. Neither organisation had heard of any issues or concerns. It is important to stress that we all hope the Greater London Authority and other authorities will be able to discharge these duties sooner than 31 December 2021.

These changes do not prevent authorities displaying documents in public buildings or sending out hard copies. We are simply continuing the existing disapplication of the former requirement while coronavirus remains prevalent. These are proportionate and pragmatic changes that have been widely welcomed by public and private sector alike. I commend this instrument to the House.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

I have to disagree with the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy of Southwark—I think he has an immense degree of humour. I have really enjoyed my time at the Dispatch Box, and in this rather strange cubicle, because he does have a great sense of humour. Most importantly, he cares, and he wants the best legislation to come out of this place. It has been a pleasure working with him so far. I agree that this measure is very uncontroversial; we can both conclude that it is good that this is taking place and that it is proportionate.

Motion agreed.

Fire Safety Bill

Lord Greenhalgh Excerpts

3rd reading & 3rd reading (Hansard) & 3rd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 24th November 2020 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Greenhalgh]

That the Bill do now pass.

[The Minister of State, Home Office and Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government (Lord Greenhalgh) (Con)]

My Lords, in moving this Motion, I want to thank all those around the House who have taken part in the Bill’s passage so far. I am proud that this is the first Bill I have taken through your Lordships’ House solo.

The Bill represents a significant step towards delivering meaningful change so that a tragedy like that at Grenfell Tower can never happen again. The Government are, and always have been, committed to implementing the Grenfell Tower Inquiry phase 1 recommendations. The Fire Safety Bill is the first legislative step in this process, and, as I have stated before, we are committed to delivering the Grenfell recommendations through regulations following the fire safety consultation.

The building safety Bill will also deliver significant change in both the regulatory framework and industry culture, creating a more accountable system. Taken together, the Fire Safety Bill, the building safety Bill and the fire safety consultation will create fundamental improvements to building and fire safety standards and ensure that residents are safe, and feel safe, in their homes.

Although this is a short, technical Bill, it is important to ensure we get the legislative sequencing right. I am therefore committed to delivering this Bill, which will pave the way for the Government to introduce regulations that will deliver on the Grenfell Tower Inquiry phase 1 recommendations. We received 200 responses to our consultation, and I thank everyone who responded. I beg to move.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Greenhalgh, for his engagement with myself and the House in general as we have considered the Fire Safety Bill. The noble Lord engaged with Members of all parties and none in his friendly, engaging style. I very much appreciate that; it is the only way to do business in this House. I think the noble Lord will have a long career on those Benches, and I wish him well there. The Bill goes back to the other place in a much better state than it arrived here in. Important amendments have been passed. I hope the Government will reflect carefully on those amendments and not just seek to overturn them in the other place.

It was good that the noble Lord again confirmed that the Government are committed to implementing the first phase of the Grenfell Tower Inquiry report. I am delighted to hear that, and we have passed amendments to facilitate that. I will say to the noble Lord and the Government that it is ridiculous that the Government keep voting against the pledges they make at the Dispatch Box and had in their manifesto. I hope they will take that on board in the other place. Surely it is right that a public register of fire risk assessments is available and kept up to date.

Finally, we must end the leasehold and tenant cladding scandal. These are the innocent victims; they must not bear the costs. The costs must be borne by the people who built the building—the warranty provider, the guarantors and the people who signed the buildings off as being fit for purpose—not by the poor tenants and leaseholders. All the amendments agreed by the House have gone to the Commons. I hope they will do the right thing in the other place and not just oppose them and send them back. I thank everybody who engaged in this Bill.

[The Earl of Lytton (CB) [V]]

My Lords, it is a great privilege to be invited to make some concluding remarks on the Bill on behalf of the Cross Benches, especially as I was not able to participate in the initial stages. We have covered a huge range of issues, such as those raised by the noble Lord, Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth, on electrical safety, and those raised by the noble Lord, Lord Stunell, and others, focusing on safety assessments and the perils of the deregulatory approach under permitted development rights. We have ranged from fire doors to liability issues and, of course, as highlighted by the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, the effect on the innocent who are blighted by the costs of remediating cladding systems.

As a technician, first and foremost, I am particularly grateful for how some of my own points were received. With Dame Judith Hackitt’s report ringing in our ears, even as we debated the Bill the ongoing inquiry under Sir Martin Moore-Bick reminded us of the construction culture that we need to address, along with the reputational challenges that have been the hallmark of what has come out post Grenfell. We must never forget the effect on those who were directly affected by that terrible tragedy. I pay tribute to the Labour Front Bench for constantly reminding us of the need for the Bill. I thank the Bill team and the Minister for keeping us on the critical path—expediting things at this stage is clearly an expression of our common wish.

Of course, some matters will now need to be reconsidered by the Commons, so it may not be the last we hear of this: the Bill needed improvements and I hope that, as mentioned by the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, the Commons will take due regard of the careful and considered points that have been raised in this House. Given the legacy of issues that have got us here, it is a tough call, demanding courage and a firm steer from the Government, and I hope the Bill will underpin that process.

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, I genuinely thank all Members of this House for their positive engagement. The Cross Benches, the Liberal Democrats, the Opposition —at the end of the day everybody wants to see a better Bill, and I certainly understand that. I thank the noble Earl, Lord Lytton. I learned a lot from his contribution on behalf of the Cross Benches. It was incredibly thoughtful and practical, understanding that this requires a firm hand from the Government and that we need to have a coherent programme as we move forward.

I am well aware that the building safety Bill, which already has around 120 clauses, will be considerably longer, in its passage through Parliament, than this three-clause Bill. But I want to make the point that we have seen constructive and more opportunistic contributions, and I want to put them into three buckets. The very constructive contributions, as this returns to the other place, are around the competence and capacity of the professionals who will have to work with the system day to day. We not only want to have nice documents and a good fire risk assessment, we need to ensure that fire safety management works and that the people in the buildings know how to prevent these things from happening in the first place. The identification of a responsible person is also important. Accountability underpins all this, so that was very helpful, as was the discussion about the recording of fire risk assessments and their availability to occupants. Some of those points were incredibly constructive—there were more, but I put them in the “constructive and relevant” bucket.

Then we have the “constructive, but this is not the right legislative hook” bucket. Electrical safety is incredibly important, since its lack is the cause of many fires in dwellings. We recognise that we need to find the right vehicle, but this is not it and I think noble Lords accept that.

Then we had the more opportunistic comments. There is a real commitment to implement the phase 1 inquiry findings from this Government, from the Opposition Benches and from the Liberal Democrats, but we had to consult, and the fire safety consultation had more than 200 responses. We need to use that as the vehicle, through regulation, to ensure that the crisis that happened three and a half years ago never happens again. Although you can never say “never”, that is the purpose of these packages of reform and we stand by that commitment. We just want to find the most practical and proportionate ways of achieving that end point, by talking to the people who have to manage that system day to day.

Also more opportunistic were the comments around decades-long poor construction and poor quality. We are talking about decades of problems and, unfortunately, they are going to take a long time to resolve. The question of who pays for this remediation requires careful balance. We want building owners to be responsible for this. We want developers to build high-quality buildings, so that we do not have to remediate in the future to the extent that we do today, and that we face today with our future buildings. We want developers to pay, and they have paid. We have seen this with the ACM fund. However, the extent of how bad this is, beyond cladding, has not really been calculated. It has just been guesstimated, but it runs into many billions of pounds. Therefore, in wanting to have personal accountability but also appropriate action by the state, we have options.

Towns Fund

Lord Greenhalgh Excerpts

Thursday 19th November 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, I draw the attention of the House to my relevant registered interest as a vice-president of the Local Government Association.

I welcome the towns fund, as getting funding to communities is always welcome news, but this whole issue has arisen because of concerns about how the funding is allocated. It must be fair and based on understandable criteria and a proper assessment of the need and must have clear goals. At no point should there ever be any suggestion that funding is taking place on political terms. What assurance can the noble Lord give the House that this has not been the case with funds allocated to date? Can he provide information on the different areas where funding was allocated or refused and on the criteria used by his department to make such decisions?

[The Minister of State, Home Office and Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government (Lord Greenhalgh) (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I am very happy to provide an outline of how the towns were selected. Officials ruled out 541 towns based on their lower levels of deprivation. The remaining towns were ranked as higher, medium or low priority based on an evidence-based methodology. The top 40 high-priority towns were chosen for town deals. Ministers used their local knowledge to conduct a qualitative assessment when picking the remaining 61 towns. This involved—

[Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist (Con)]

I am afraid we cannot hear you well enough; your diction is very indistinct. If you could sit forward a bit, that would be very helpful.

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con) [V]]

I am very sorry about my diction. Can you hear me better now? I hope so. I was saying that the top 40 towns were chosen for town deals and that Ministers used their local knowledge to conduct a qualitative assessment when picking the remaining 61 towns. A deals process, rather than an open competition, was used, as many previously left-behind towns lacked the capacity to bid. In that sense, the process was very clear and fair in relation to the basis for allocating the considerable amount of money involved.

[Baroness Pinnock (LD) [V]]

My Lords, I have relevant interests, as set out in the register, and I also welcome the towns fund. however, it is not quite correct that, as the Minister has just said, the top 40 towns, as assessed by the criteria, were chosen for the money in the towns fund. There were many towns in the highest-priority category that were not selected. Can the Minister explain why they were rejected? What can I tell their local representatives about why they are failing to meet the eye of the Minister when they meet the criteria?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con) [V]]

I want to make clear that the process was driven by officials using an evidence-based methodology. The top 40 high-priority towns were chosen for town deals. For the remaining 61 towns, there was ministerial involvement but using a process designed by officials in my department. I add that I am delighted that Dewsbury in the borough of Kirklees has been selected to develop proposals for a town deal. My department is looking forward to receiving its town investment plan early next year.

[Lord Moynihan (Con)]

My Lords, in all the government guidance on the towns fund, there is the prospect of there being a major missed opportunity for prioritising co-investment with the private sector in sport, recreation and active-lifestyle facilities. I praise my noble friend the Minister for personally promoting the importance of sport as a catalyst for levelling up and inspiring communities, as we did in the deprived East End of London with the Olympic and Paralympic Games in 2012. I hope my noble friend the Minister will agree that we urgently need to build regeneration, inspiration and legacy into our town fund initiatives, particularly in the north of England?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con) [V]]

My Lords, there is no greater champion of the role of sport, leisure and recreation in place-making. I point out that the towns fund guidance provides the envelope upon which towns can prioritise leisure facilities. As a department, we hope to see many towns come forward, building in leisure facilities, parks and green spaces, cycle lanes and a myriad of sports activities within their bids.

[The Lord Bishop of St Albans [V]]

My Lords, I am also delighted that the Government have set up the towns fund, which will make a significant contribution to many poorer communities. Nevertheless, it still remains that the Public Accounts Committee has expressed concerns about why some towns were chosen and some were not. In future, will Her Majesty’s Government undertake to publish the objective criteria and evidence that will be used for selection so that everyone can be assured that there is no political influence in making these selections and choices?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con) [V]]

In my answer to the previous question, I made it clear that this is a combination of using an evidence-based methodology and Ministers using their local knowledge. That benefited 101 towns in the first instance. There is more money to be spent on regeneration, but the foundation stone of the allocation of funds was using a clear methodology with multiple criteria, including productivity and exposure to economic shocks.

[Baroness Armstrong of Hill Top (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his responses, but his last response gives rise to some concern. It certainly looks as if many of the decisions were partial and, given what was said during the election by the Secretary of State to Conservative candidates about the likelihood of the towns in their constituencies receiving consideration in the towns fund, his view that Ministers used their personal knowledge gives folk like me from the northern part of Durham real concern. Will the Minister therefore be clearer than he was with the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of St Albans and state that, in future, criteria will be published so that we can see that an independent, proper decision to allocate public money to towns that need it—and they do need it—is transparently fair?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con) [V]]

I would point out that the National Audit Office looked into this. Its report sets out the town deal selection process in detail. The report showed that the more affluent towns were ruled out and the 40 most deprived towns were rightly favoured, with the remainder selected from a shortlist that considered a wide range of evidence. This process was developed by officials but there was political oversight, as there should be.

[Baroness Uddin (Non-Afl)]

I, too, welcome this immense support for local towns. I am sure that the Minister will be perfectly aware of the political leadership required in any such allocations, be it locally or centrally. Despite what the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, said about the beautiful Canary Wharf development, access is the most important thing. That has not always been meritorious or led by local demand. Can the Minster assure the House, me and local communities that he will ensure that women leaders play a vital role locally and take part in the regeneration and redevelopment of new towns?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con) [V]]

My Lords, there is no doubt that regeneration involves physical regeneration, economic regeneration and social renewal. Women often play a bigger part than men in that process, from my experience in local government.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP) [V]]

My Lords, I declare my interest as a vice-president of the Local Government Association.

Yesterday, the Government made an announcement acknowledging both the urgency of the climate emergency and their special global responsibility in chairing COP 26. If the Government are operating in a joined-up way, you would expect the towns fund money to be used for super-policies that have environmental benefits in addition to economic ones. Can the Minister tell me what percentage of spending addresses those goals?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I am happy to write to the noble Baroness on that point as I do not have those figures to hand.

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Haskel) (Lab)]

All questions have now been asked.

Fire Safety Bill

Lord Greenhalgh Excerpts

Report stage & Report stage (Hansard) & Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 17th November 2020 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Home Office and Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government (Lord Greenhalgh) (Con)]

My Lords, I refer to my relevant commercial and residential property interests as set out in the register. I thank my noble friend Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth for his amendment, which shines a light on the important issue of electrical safety. Indeed, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Tope, for his clear focus and mission to prevent fires happening in the first place as a result of electrical faults as absolutely the key. I also thank my noble friend for the constructive meeting that we had on this issue last week, involving my noble friend Lord Randall of Uxbridge. I recognise the covering fire received from the noble Lords, Lord Tope and Lord Whitty, for this amendment, and in particular, as the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy of Southwark, mentioned, the work of the Electrical Safety First organisation. I commend the latter for the work that it is doing to raise awareness of the risks of electrical fires. I also thank the noble Lord, Lord Mann, for pointing out the issues around second-hand electrical goods; this is a particularly difficult area to regulate and something that we need to look into.

I will not reiterate all the points that I raised in Committee, but I will mention two concerns that I have in relation to this amendment. First, I note that the wording has changed to focus on high-rise buildings, but I am still concerned that it would not have the effect that my noble friend seeks to achieve. In particular, it is doubtful that the amendment would result in electrical appliances in private dwellings being brought within the scope of the fire safety order. This in turn will thwart the amendment’s underlying objectives for systematic checks on electrical appliances and for the responsible person to keep a register of appliances, as required by the additional schedule proposed in this amendment.

My other concern is that the amendment risks delaying the implementation of necessary reforms to fire safety regulation. A number of concerns have been raised in both your Lordships’ House and the other place about the pace of reform to fire and building safety legislation. We now have a package of reforms: this Bill, the upcoming fire safety order regulations, and the building safety Bill. The amendment would impact on the delivery of this package of legislation, and in particular on the fire safety order regulations.

A lot of the detail of this amendment is left to be implemented through regulations, and the work that this would require would lead to significant delays in our being able to deliver other key recommendations from the Grenfell inquiry. The answer to addressing the concern about electrical safety lies in the work that is being undertaken across government, which includes a number of strands. I will not repeat all of the work that I referenced in Committee but will pick out some key aspects.

A regulatory regime is in place on product safety, underpinned by legislation and overseen by a national regulator, the Office for Product Safety and Standards, which was created in 2018. This regime places responsibility for the safety of products on those actors best placed to ensure this before products are placed on the market. The draft building safety Bill reflects the role that all parties have to play in ensuring the safety of high-rise dwellings, from the developer to the accountable person to the residents themselves, and electrical safety is an important part of this. As mentioned by a number of noble Lords, there are standards for electrical checks in private rented accommodation, which require that electrical equipment is checked at least every five years. This is already in place for new tenancies and will apply to existing tenancies from 1 April 2021.

I recognise the concerns expressed by a number of noble Lords with respect to there being no mandatory checks on social housing. The inequality between social and private housing was raised by my noble friend Lord Randall and the noble Lords, Lord Shipley and Lord Kennedy. I am pleased to say that today we have published a social housing White Paper, which sets out our charter for social housing residents. It includes a commitment to undertake a consultation on keeping social housing residents safe from electrical harm. Among a range of issues, this will consider extending the safety measures already in the private rented sector to social housing.

I assure my noble friend that the Government take the issues raised in his amendment very seriously indeed. In that regard I am happy to give him a firm commitment that, outside the Bill process, my officials will engage Electrical Safety First and other key stakeholders in an official-led working group to inform the content of our consultation. Given the assurances that I have provided, I ask my noble friend to agree to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I first thank everybody who has participated in the debate on the amendments in this group. It has been a very worthwhile discussion, and every noble Lord who participated added something valuable. It is clear that there is broad support within the House for action, and a recognition of the inequality that exists between private tenants on the one hand and social tenants—and indeed owner-occupiers—on the other hand.

I note what my noble friend the Minister said in relation to some of the detailed points in the consideration of the amendments that may cause concern; clearly they are matters that could be looked at. I agree with my noble friend the Minister on the importance of what has happened today in relation to the White Paper, although I note that there is no timescale attached to that. Before I withdraw my amendment, which I am minded to do, I will press my noble friend a little on two matters. First, would he be willing to meet with me and the other signatories to the amendment ahead of the building safety Bill to see how we can dovetail what we are seeking to do here with that Bill? I know from discussions with him that he felt that that Bill was a more appropriate medium to use, so I seek that from him.

Secondly, I thank him very much for the undertaking that he has given to meet with Electrical Safety First, along with officials, to consider the proposals in the social housing White Paper as to possible timescales. He will understand that we are now three and a half years after the dreadful events of Grenfell. The social housing White Paper has been a long time forthcoming, for reasons that I do understand, and we are now looking at a future consultation; we do not—and I am sure he does not—want this stretching out a long time into the future. So I will just press him a little bit on those two matters before I withdraw my amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, I am very happy to give my noble friend the assurance that we can meet together before the introduction of the building safety Bill. Indeed, as soon as I have more information about the timescales in relation to the social housing White Paper being turned into legislation, I will be able to provide that to my noble friend. I am happy also to agree to meet with the Electrical Safety First organisation; I would find that very constructive indeed.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I know my noble friend and I know his sincerity so, with those undertakings, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

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[Baroness Pinnock (LD) [V]]

My Lords, I remind the House of my interests, as recorded in the register, as a councillor in Kirklees and as a vice-president of the Local Government Association.

I turn first to Amendment 6, through which the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, has raised concerns about the inclusion of all multi-occupied domestic premises within the scope of the Bill. The issues raised relate to leaseholders who find that they are, in effect, unable to move as their property is within the scope of the Bill and, therefore, that the fire risk exists but is not quantified. The later amendment in my name explores these issues in more detail.

In Committee, the noble Lord, Lord Parkinson, spoke on behalf of the Minister and confirmed that the Government intend that all multi-occupational buildings are within the scope of the Bill and the fire safety order 2005. He also argued in Committee that the height of a building is only one factor in assessing fire risk, and others have given recent examples of fires in such buildings that support that argument. The issue, then, is about prioritisation, as the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, has so expertly explained, and what actions the Government are able to take to minimise the impact on properties deemed low priority and, therefore, presumably of lower risk. It is that issue that the Minister needs to clarify. Will the Government bring forward regulations or guidance to demonstrate the criteria to be used to fire assess properties? Can these be used by leaseholders to demonstrate low risk, and thus release their property from being frozen out of the housing market? I look forward to the Minister’s response to these concerns.

The other amendment in this group, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, raises issues about consultation. It lists consultees, as a very similar amendment did in Committee. My colleagues and I are always in favour of the widest possible consultation on any issue. However, there is an inherent risk in a list that becomes exclusive while intending to be inclusive. The list of consultees is one which we would expect, however, to be involved in all relevant consultations. As my noble friend Lord Shipley said, the list is inherently sensible, so I hope the Minister will be able to accept such a list. Again, I look forward to the Minister’s response.

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy of Southwark, for raising the issue of engagement to make sure the right groups and organisations are consulted on any changes or clarifications to the types of premises that fall within the scope of the fire safety order. The Government have given this matter further consideration since Committee stage. I support the noble Lord’s aim of ensuring that the widest range of groups are given an opportunity to comment. It is sensible to seek views from all groups impacted by any future changes, which is why Clause 2 of the Fire Safety Bill provides a requirement to consult anyone appropriate, which is likely to include all the parties highlighted in the amendment.

Robust policy-making can be achieved only by reaching out to all sections of the fire sector and other interested parties, such as responsible persons and residents, not by relying solely on the expertise of certain groups. To be clear, of course we will consult with the National Fire Chiefs Council but equally, we will consult with the Fire Brigades Union and with tenants’ and residents’ associations.

The Government are committed to considering the most appropriate means of conducting any future consultation before making any regulations—regulations which Parliament would have an opportunity to scrutinise, should it so wish. It remains the case that the specified list as presented identifies groups whose role, name or function may change over time, potentially creating the need for future primary legislative changes or making such provision ineffective. However, the Bill as drafted safeguards against this while ensuring that relevant groups are not excluded. I want to assure your Lordships’ House that we recognise the importance of consulting relevant stakeholders, but the wording of Clause 2 already allows us to do just that, without the need to be prescriptive in the way the noble Lord’s amendment suggests.

I turn now to the very important consumer issues raised by my noble friend Lady Neville-Rolfe. I had a meeting with my noble friends Lady Neville-Rolfe and Lord Shinkwin, and I am very happy to commit to a further meeting before the introduction of the building safety Bill. These are huge consumer issues, and I praise my noble friend for being a champion of the consumer. We recognise that many leaseholders’ properties have been valued at zero, they are waiting for remediation of their properties and they are unable to remortgage or to move. They are effectively trapped, and the Government recognise that that is a considerable issue for them. We also recognise that the costs of historic building safety and fire safety remediation will be considerably more than the £1.6 billion already committed. It is important to address that in a way that is affordable to leaseholders, and there are only certain ways of doing that. We will make announcements on that in due course.

Equally, we recognise that the pace of remediation is important. I have talked to many people in the social housing sector about the fact that they have probably overspent on waking watch. I am very pleased that we provided guidance on waking watch, the cost of which is exorbitantly high; it can be replaced by a fire alarm system within six or seven weeks, which reduces some of the costs of interim measures. I draw the attention of those using waking watch for extended periods to the most recent guidance from the National Fire Chiefs Council and the work on waking watch costs. I am very happy to commit to a further meeting.

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Moved by

[Lord Greenhalgh]

7: After Clause 2, insert the following new Clause—
“Risk based guidance about the discharge of duties under the Fire Safety Order
(1) Article 50 of the Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order 2005 (S.I. 2005/1541) (guidance) is amended as follows.(2) After paragraph (1) insert—“(1A) Where in any proceedings it is alleged that a person has contravened a provision of articles 8 to 22 or of regulations made under article 24 in relation to a relevant building (or part of the building)—(a) proof of a failure to comply with any applicable risk based guidance may be relied on as tending to establish that there was such a contravention, and(b) proof of compliance with any applicable risk based guidance may be relied on as tending to establish that there was no such contravention.”(3) After paragraph (2) insert—“(2A) Before revising or withdrawing any risk based guidance in relation to relevant buildings the Secretary of State must consult such persons as the Secretary of State considers appropriate.”(4) After paragraph (3) insert—“(4) In this article—“relevant building” means a building in England containing two or more sets of domestic premises;“risk based guidance” means guidance under paragraph (1) about how a person who is subject to the duties mentioned there in relation to more than one set of premises is to prioritise the discharge of those duties in respect of the different premises by reference to risk.””Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment provides that, where the Secretary of State issues risk based guidance under the existing duty to ensure the availability of appropriate guidance, proof of compliance or a lack of compliance with that guidance can be used in legal proceedings. It also requires the Secretary of State to consult before revising or withdrawing risk based guidance.

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[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, I shall speak also to Amendment 14. In Committee I made a commitment to set out during today’s debate the Government’s position on how the Fire Safety Bill will be commenced. Your Lordships’ House is aware that the Home Office established an independent task and finish group, chaired jointly by the National Fire Chiefs Council and the Fire Sector Federation, which brought together interested parties from across the fire and housing sectors. Its role was to provide a recommendation on the optimal way to commence the Bill. The group advised that the Bill should be commenced at once for all buildings in scope. I have accepted this recommendation to commence the Fire Safety Bill at once for all buildings in scope on a single date.

The group also recommended that responsible persons under the fire safety order should use a risk-based approach to carrying out or reviewing fire risk assessments upon commencement by way of using a risk operating model, and that the Government issue statutory guidance to support this approach. I also agreed to this recommendation, which will support responsible persons to develop an effective prioritisation strategy for such assessments, which will be supported by a risk operating model currently being developed. The Home Office, with support from the National Fire Chiefs Council and the Fire Sector Federation, will also host this model once it has been finalised.

The government amendments tabled today intend to take forward the provision of statutory guidance to support this approach. These amendments ensure that the risk-based guidance which will be issued by the Secretary of State to support commencement of the Bill for all relevant buildings will have the legal status to incentivise compliance with it. It does this by stating explicitly that a court can consider whether a responsible person has complied with their duties under the fire safety order by compliance with the risk-based guidance. Equally, if a responsible person has failed to provide evidence that they have complied, it may be relied on by a court as tending to support non-compliance with the duties under the order.

The government amendment also creates a provision to allow the Secretary of State to withdraw the risk-based guidance, but this can be done only after consultation with relevant stakeholders and appropriate persons. Our rationale for inserting this provision is that we believe that a point will eventually be reached where, having followed a risk-based approach to prioritisation, responsible persons will have assessed all the fire safety risks for the external walls of their buildings in direct consequence of the commencement of the Bill. At that stage there may no longer be a need for the guidance to remain in place. I assure your Lordships’ House that the Government will commence the Bill at the same time as issuing the guidance. Amendment 14 achieves this effect.

I thank my noble friend Lord Porter of Spalding for his amendment in Committee, which would have placed a duty on the Secretary of State to issue an approved code of practice to support the commencement of the Bill. I had a very constructive discussion with my noble friend and officials from the Local Government Association last week, and I am pleased that he supports our approach and agrees that there should be no delay in commencing the Bill.

One of the issues that the task and finish group considered was how responsible persons will be able to update their fire risk assessment where there is limited capacity in the fire risk assessor sector, primarily fire engineers, to advise on external wall systems. This underlines the recommendation for a risk-based approach to an all-at-once commencement, on which we are acting. Our approach sends a signal to the fire risk assessor sector, mainly fire engineers, that their expertise should first be directed to where it is needed most: to the highest risk buildings.

I draw attention the statement of the Fire Sector Federation, which supports our approach to commencement. It said that

“the introduction of further new measures … using systematic risk- based guidance, will lead a prioritisation approach towards helping to identify the fire risk status for a … building such that those presenting the highest threat to life are afforded the highest priority”

for “remedial action.”

I thank all members of the task and finish group for their work in developing advice to the Home Office and my officials. I consider that the group has provided an optimal solution to commencing the Fire Safety Bill, allowing the Government to introduce the provisions at the earliest opportunity. It is important that we continue the good work undertaken with relevant stakeholders on the task and finish group, with a view regularly to monitoring the effectiveness of the risk-based guidance and risk-operating model. My amendments seek to take forward the recommendations from operational experts in the field of fire safety. I beg to move.

[The Earl of Lytton (CB) [V]]

My Lords, the proposed risk-based guidance set out in the amendment is extremely welcome, particularly if it means what I think it means: assessment not only by building type but in relation to the specifics. The risk-operating model is especially welcome in this respect, and I thank the Minister for tabling the amendment. When is the guidance likely to be finalised? It is linked to the Bill coming into force and it is important that it be done as soon as possible, subject to reasonable scrutiny. We need reasonable certainty and to calm financial, insurance and property market fears.

Knowing the limited scrutiny that secondary legislation receives, can the Minister give an assurance that the guidance will be unequivocal—in clear, jargon-free and plain English, capable of consistent application and not liable to misleading or alternative interpretations? I say that with some feeling, having had to deal with matters of regulation over many years. Can the Minister also say whether there will be consultation on the details —in the knowledge that, within reason, the sooner this measure is brought in, the better—and whether there will be parliamentary scrutiny of it?

I particularly welcome the Minister’s reference to the signal that will be given to the accreditation sector and the insistence on indicating priorities. Getting capacity will clearly be an issue and the person responsible for a building—as happens in some employment situations—does not necessarily need to be an externally trained professional.

I will raise one further issue. A member of my family, as I mentioned earlier, has a flat in a relatively low-rise block in a London borough. I spent a bit of time on the borough’s website looking for details of the 2006 planning consent that governed its construction. Unfortunately, all the information—bar the notice—was missing from the website. I was told that I could make an application; it is not clear whether or not I would have to pay for that.

The other aspect of this is the information that goes into building control, which should be the details of how the building is to be constructed. If people are to be able to make a reasoned assessment of the safety or otherwise of their building, having that constructional information is rather important. The standard approach, however, is that building regulation information is not readily accessible on demand and may involve copyright issues where plans are provided. This may be fair enough, but there is an overriding need to know. If the architect, or the approved inspector—or whoever might have this information, since it might not be in the local authority records—cannot be traced, the only solution, which may have to happen anyway to some extent, would be for someone to take intrusive steps to open up parts of the building for inspection.

That basic information, which at some stage must have gone into the public domain or been used for an approved building regulation inspection, needs to be rounded up. Can the Minister offer any comfort or reassurance that steps will be taken to make sure that this essential information is recovered and available to those who need it?

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[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, I am very happy to support government Amendments 7 and 14 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Greenhalgh. These amendments respond to the issues raised by the noble Lord, Lord Porter of Spalding, whose amendments I moved in Committee because he was having connectivity issues.

I have read the briefing from the Local Government Association, which confirms its support for the government amendments but reflects the concerns it raised about the fact that there were far too few fire risk assessors competent and insured to carry out the fire risk assessments of buildings with external wall cladding systems required under the Fire Safety Bill. We need to implement these powers quickly, and this is a reasonable way forward. The LGA is happy and I, too, am happy to support what the Minister is proposing today.

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who have contributed to this short debate. I will address a couple of points. I assure the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, that I will endeavour to see that the regulation is written in plain English that even I can understand. In response to the noble Earl and the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, I agree that the timing is important, and guidance will be available at commencement.

These government amendments ensure that the risk-based guidance issued by the Secretary of State to support commencement of the provisions in the Bill that apply to all relevant buildings has the right legal status to incentivise compliance. These amendments also ensure that the Government can commence the Bill for all relevant buildings as early as possible after Royal Assent and at the same time as the risk-based guidance is issued.

I am sure that noble Lords will agree that there should be no delays in bringing this Bill into force. I thank the task and finish group for all its hard work in developing the advice to the Home Office, which I consider the optimal solution for commencing the Bill. It is important that we get this right, which is why we have listened to the views of the experts who will have to implement the Bill. I beg to move.

Amendment 7 agreed.

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[Baroness Pinnock (LD) [V]]

The report continued:

“I therefore recommend that the owner and manager of every high-rise residential building be required by law:


a. to provide their local fire and rescue services with up-to-date plans in both paper and electronic form of every floor of the building identifying the location of key fire safety systems;


b. to ensure that the building contains a premises information box, the contents of which must include a copy of the up-to-date floor plans and information about the nature of any lift intended for use by the fire and rescue services.”


So last year, the Grenfell inquiry report asked for the speedy introduction of these recommendations. A year later, we are waiting.

I know that the Government have stated a firm commitment to implementing the recommendations of the inquiry, and the amendment seeks to rectify this absence of government legislative action. As my noble friend Lord Stunell so wisely said, we all agree that this action needs to be taken and we are all impatient for it to be put in place.

The Government said that this was a high priority. However, even the building safety Bill is silent on the matter. How then can we be assured that it is a high priority for them? Here we have an opportunity to show intent, as a consequence of that tragic fire at Grenfell, to ensure that others do not endure what Grenfell residents endured. If the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, pushes this amendment to a vote, we on this side will vote in support of this vital change.

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, the Grenfell Tower fire was a tragedy of epic proportions. It was the largest loss of life in a residential fire since the Second World War. We have to recognise that a lot has happened and that a lot of actions have been taken by the Government since that event over three years ago.

The Government took early and decisive action to announce an independent Grenfell Tower inquiry. They took decisive action to start the Independent Review of Building Regulations and Fire Safety, led by Dame Judith Hackitt, and they took decisive action to establish the building safety programme. The Government took decisive action in setting up a comprehensive aluminium composite material—ACM—remediation programme. They took decisive action in setting up an independent expert panel to provide advice to government and building owners. They took decisive action in providing £600 million to help with the remediation of ACM high-rises. They took decisive action in providing a further £1 billion to remediate high-rises with other forms of flammable cladding. They took decisive action to ban combustible cladding on buildings within the scope of the ban. The Government took decisive action in introducing a protection board.

I accept that the pace of remediation has been slow, but I point to the progress that has been made this year in particular. This was a year when we had a global pandemic with two national lockdowns, and nevertheless we have seen a considerably greater number of on-site starts in those buildings—high-rises with the same cladding as Grenfell—and we are on track to see that around 90% of buildings will either have had the cladding removed or people will be on-site to complete that in a matter of months. That is real progress. This is cross-party; I thank Mayor Burnham, and Mayor Khan in London, but also the local authority leaders for their work to make sure that there has been real pace in the remediation this year. It is not easy to continue these construction programmes in that sort of environment.

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy of Southwark, for the amendment on the duties of an owner or manager. It is important that we discuss this amendment given the attention it has already received in the other place and in Committee in your Lordships’ House. I know that the noble Lord and other noble Lords have strong views on this issue and wish to see the Grenfell inquiry’s recommendations implemented as soon as possible. I share that intention. However, the Government do not consider that this amendment provides the most effective means of giving effect to the inquiry’s recommendations.

I hope to reassure the noble Lord that our shared objective can be achieved without the need for his amendments, which may in fact work against the swiftest possible implementation of the recommendations. I reiterate, as I said in my all-Peers letter and in Committee in your Lordships’ House, that the Government are, and always have been, committed to implementing and, where appropriate, legislating for the inquiry’s recommendations. This was a manifesto commitment and I am determined to ensure that we deliver on it.

I will set out our approach on this issue. It is right that we consulted before making regulations to deliver the Grenfell recommendations. As I set out in Committee, this was not solely because we have a statutory duty to do so—but we do, and this amendment is not in keeping with that duty. It also reflects Sir Martin Moore-Bick’s own view on the need to ensure broad support for recommendations and an understanding of the practical issues associated with implementing them. Our 12-week public consultation, which closed on 12 October, is allowing us to do just that. I am pleased to say that over 200 responses were received. It is important that we consider carefully those responses before finalising the precise policy detail to implement these new duties. Due consideration has to be given to the views of those who have submitted a response to the consultation.

I will highlight an example of that. The amendment tabled by the noble Lord prescribes a minimum set period for checks of both fire doors and lifts. As we consider our responses to the consultation, other approaches may be suggested that may provide more practical and proportionate options which are no less effective. The amendment may hinder our ability to deliver what may be a better solution for the safety of residents. I hope that is not the noble Lord’s intention, but I ask him to reflect on that fact. Understanding and acting on the consultation responses will ultimately help us to produce better, informed legislation, which we will deliver through regulations under the fire safety order as soon as possible after the Bill is commenced.

I reiterate that this amendment is not necessary and will not speed up the legislative process. It requires us to make regulations to amend the fire safety order to introduce new duties on the face of the order, but we consider that we already have the ability to implement such new duties through the power in Article 24 to make regulations, which we plan to use to implement a number of the Grenfell inquiry recommendations. Our intention is to introduce these regulations as soon as possible after the Bill is commenced.

I am also concerned about the impact of the misleading media coverage—even in recent media coverage written by Pippa Crerar that quotes the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy of Southwark—after this amendment was voted on in the Commons on the Grenfell community’s faith in our commitment to deliver the Grenfell recommendations. I reassure the Grenfell community that the Government remain absolutely steadfast to their manifesto commitment to implement the inquiry’s recommendations.

I think that all noble Lords are seeking the same thing—the swift implementation of the Grenfell inquiry’s recommendations—and that is what the Government are committed to. While I understand the spirit of the amendment, it will not do that and may risk undermining our efforts. As such, I hope that the noble Lord will be content to withdraw the amendment.

[The Deputy Speaker (Baroness Morris of Bolton) (Con)]

My Lords, I have received no requests to speak after the Minister, so I now call the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy.

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[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to speak in this debate and to support the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, and the noble Lord, Lord Stunell, on their amendments in this group. Both have comprehensively explained the intent of their amendments and, as I said, I fully support them. If the noble Baroness decides to test the opinion of the House on Amendment 10, I can assure her that the noble Lords on these Benches will support her in that endeavour.

Amendment 10 is particularly important as it talks about the public register of fire risk assessments, and I fully support it. As we heard from the Grenfell Tower fire inquiry and from elsewhere, the complete lack of important information about buildings is a huge issue. This amendment requires the Secretary of State to make provision for a register of fire risk assessments that is publicly available so that tenants and residents can see it. Importantly, the amendment also requires the register to be kept up to date. The relevant regulations would be brought before Parliament and subject to parliamentary procedure. I very much agree that there must be a safety-first approach to fire risk, and that is why I fully support these amendments.

Amendment 11 provides for a public register of fire risk assessors, which we have talked about. This amendment again raises an important issue that has arisen in a number of amendments throughout our consideration of the Bill; namely whether people are sufficiently qualified to do the assessments. Like many other noble Lords, I am concerned that we must never have fire risk assessment on the cheap. We need to have properly qualified people who know what they are doing and who can spot and correct the problems. A publicly available and up-to-date register of such people will make the difference.

The noble Lord, Lord Stunell, in speaking to Amendment 12, again made the point about permitted developments. It is absolutely right that fire safety and the work of the fire authorities is paramount when we are building buildings.

I fully support all the amendments in this group. As I said, if the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, tests the opinion of the House on Amendment 10, these Benches will support her.

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, and the noble Lord for raising this important issue on establishing a public register of fire risk assessments. The fire safety order currently places no requirement for responsible persons to record their completed fire risk assessments, save for in limited and specified circumstances. The self-regulatory and non-prescriptive nature of the fire safety order is the cornerstone of the legislation. It provides for a proportionate approach to effective regulation of fire-related risks across the wide range of buildings that fall within its scope.

I do, though, agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, that it is of paramount importance that residents have access to the information they need to feel safe and be safe in their homes. However, the creation of a fire risk assessment register would place a new level of regulation upon responsible persons that could be seen as disproportionate. There are also questions in relation to the ownership and maintenance of such a register and where the costs would lie. There is a delicate balance to be struck.

The Government do, however, acknowledge that there is work to be done and that improvements can be made in respect of the sharing of important information with residents and other relevant persons. That is why the fire safety consultation set out a range of proposals to ensure that those persons are provided with vital fire safety information.

First, the fire safety consultation proposed to change the current position that a responsible person does not have to record their fire risk assessment by including a proposed new requirement on all responsible persons to record their full fire risk assessments. This would provide a level of assurance that their duty to complete a suitable and sufficient fire risk assessment has been fulfilled. In addition, the consultation also included proposals for responsible persons to take steps to provide vital fire safety information to residents, including the fire risk assessments on request. We are considering responses to the consultation to ensure that we take the needs of residents into account when establishing the final policy approach. The full consultation can be found online at GOV.UK and we will publish a response at the earliest opportunity.

I turn now to the related amendment from the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, and the noble Lord, Lord Stunell, which seeks to create a public register of fire risk assessors. I agree with the noble Lord and the noble Baroness that there is a clear need for reform in relation to fire risk assessors to improve standards. That is why the Government included a proposal for a competence requirement for fire risk assessors and other fire safety professionals in the recent fire safety order consultation.

Noble Lords will recall that, in Committee, I mentioned the work of the industry-led competency steering group and its subgroup on fire risk assessors. The group published a report on 5 October, which included proposals in relation to third-party accreditation, a competence framework for fire risk assessors and the creation of a register of fire risk assessors. The working group recommend that the register should be compiled from the existing registers and should be easy to use, with open public access to records of individuals and organisations. It is right that industry leads this work and continues to develop the competence and capacity of these professions.

I wish to assure your Lordships’ House that the Government are committed to working with the fire risk assessor sector to develop a clear plan to increase its capacity and capability. However, it is necessary to establish this basic principle of competence before we consider how the sector can be further professionalised. Again, the responses to the fire safety consultation proposals will inform the approach on issues relating to competence.

The right approach is for the Government to first establish a basic principle of competence and consider the competency steering group’s and subgroup’s proposals in relation to a register of fire risk assessors. The Government’s position is that this work should continue to be led and progressed by industry. We will support industry in taking forward this vital work.

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The Government need to take firm action. I hope the Minister will set out for us now what action they will take to support leaseholders, who are in a terrible situation. If he does not do that, I and other noble Lords on these Benches will certainly be joining the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, in supporting this amendment.

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, and the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, for their Amendment 13 on remediation costs. I often think that we need to apply a Daily Mail test to discover whether the opinion of the House will be tested. We have had an article in the Mirror from Pippa Crerar indicating one Division, and an article on this amendment from a different Mirror journalist—the online political editor. So I am not surprised that there will be a test of the opinion of the House.

I want to make clear the sincerity of our view that we need to understand the scale of the problem. Removing the cladding is like unpeeling an orange. You then find greater defects: the internal compartmentation issues, the missing firebreaks, and the issues around fire doors and wooden balconies. These historic structural defects will involve a colossal sum of money. We do not know how much; there are estimates and there are guesstimates, but we accept that there is a significant job of work to be done to deal with the historic defects that have accrued over many, many years.

As the Minister with responsibility for building—as well as fire—safety, I am regularly in contact with leaseholders hit with high bills for remediation to help make their homes safer. I fully understand the anxiety and distress that these people are going through. These are people who have done the right thing, investing their hard-earned savings into a home for themselves and their families, yet now many of them are facing unaffordable bills. I fully understand the intention behind this amendment, and I want to assure noble Lords that we are working very hard in the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government to improve the situation that people find themselves in.

Finally, we have already committed £1.6 billion to fund the removal and replacement of unsafe cladding on high-rise residential buildings, and we have been putting pressure on building owners to step up to the plate, as well as using warranties and recovering costs from contractors for incorrect or poor work.

However, I can assure noble Lords that we want to go further to protect people from unaffordable costs. Noble Lords will be aware that we published the draft building safety Bill on 20 July 2020. This includes important public safety measures; the Government are committed to progressing the Bill as quickly as possible so that reforms can be implemented in a timely manner. The Bill will be introduced to Parliament once the Government have considered the scrutiny committee’s recommendations.

My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Housing, Communities and Local Government is committed to updating our position on remediation costs when the building safety Bill returns to Parliament. Michael Wade, senior adviser to MHCLG, is accelerating work with leaseholders and the financial sector to identify financing solutions that protect leaseholders from unaffordable costs while ensuring that the bill does not fall entirely on taxpayers. We have had regular meetings with leaseholder groups, on this and a range of other issues, since the draft Bill was published.

While I support the underlying intention to protect leaseholders and have gone on the record today saying so, this amendment falls down in three main areas, which might make the problem worse rather than better.

First, the safety of residents in their homes is of the highest priority. This is the intention behind today’s Bill and all the Government’s wider work on building safety. There is a range of options for meeting the costs of safety-critical remediation work, which will be appropriate in different circumstances. It would be irresponsible to close off one of the potential routes to funding these works. This amendment risks leaving a building with known fire risks in a position where the work is not taken forward.

Secondly, this new clause would stop all remediation costs from being passed on to leaseholders. For example, service and maintenance charges would at present meet the cost of safety work required as a result of routine wear and tear, such as worn fire door closers. These costs would now fall to building owners—who are, in many cases, also not responsible for original building defects, as they did not build the property—rather than being determined by the terms of the lease.

Thirdly, the fire safety order is not the appropriate legislative framework to resolve remediation costs. The primary focus of the fire safety order is to place duties on any person who has some level of control in a premises—the responsible person or the dutyholder—to ensure that they identify the fire safety risks for the buildings they are responsible for and, if necessary, put in place general fire precautions. As I have said, we are looking to the building safety Bill to address the issues raised in this amendment.

I thank the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, for his comment about orphan liability. He underlined the point that we need to keep the options open. I also thank the noble Lord, Lord Stunell, for his comment about construction warranties. Typically, the market leader is the NHBC. I met the council very recently and, effectively, that is only a 10-year protection: two years for defects, with eight years insurance-based. While we are looking at ways of increasing the compliance period to align with the 10 years, it would be possible through other legislative means to extend the period, because I do not see why someone who has put their life savings into a home has such minimal protection when they purchase a property. I buy a pair of tweezers to take the hair out of my ears and they have a lifetime guarantee. When someone puts their entire savings into a home, they deserve protection over time. That is something we as a Government need to look to do, and will do in due course. This is not the moment to resolve this particular issue, but it is well noted.

I ask that your Lordships’ House recognises the complexity of this policy area, which cannot be solved through this amendment, and considers the assurances I have given today. For the reasons set out in my response, I ask the noble Baroness to withdraw her amendment.

[Baroness Pinnock (LD) [V]]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his response and all noble Lords who have contributed to this debate. This is about saving thousands of householders from crippling debts when none of the fault for this awful situation is of their making: none of it. I accept what the Minister has said; this is a problem that is hugely costly and complex. However, Governments regularly—daily, probably—have to find solutions to complex and costly issues, and this is one. I trust that the Minister can find a fair and just solution to it.

I again thank the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, in particular for sharing his expertise in this matter. He has rightly pointed out that this is a difficult, complicated and knotty problem, but the principle must be right: somewhere in government legislation we need the principle to be accepted that these leaseholders and tenants have, in good faith, bought a flat, or are tenants or residents of a flat, and that these problems have arisen through no fault of their own. They should not, as my noble friend Lord Stunell said, be held to ransom for these problems when it is not their issue. They have every right to expect, as my noble friend said, to have bought a home that is safe, when they have all the guarantees and insurances in place.

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, who spoke about flats that are worthless and residents who are being penalised through no fault of their own. I thank the Minister for his reply, and I know that this is difficult. What I want him to do is to accept that the principle we are putting forward is the fair and just one. It is no good, to my mind, saying that nobody is going to expect house owners to have to pay anything more than is affordable, whatever that means. Worse still came from the lips of the Minister when he said that what is happening is that, when they take off the cladding, they are revealing and exposing further terrible defects. Frankly, that makes matters worse and the principle of what the amendment proposes more just.

I fully understand the Government’s intention to try and find a fair way to pay for this. My view, and the view of my colleagues, is that the costs should not fall on those who in good faith have bought their home and, through no fault of their own, are in this terrible and difficult situation. Good intentions are okay but the path to hell, as they say, is paved with good intentions. In this regard, good intentions are not sufficient. We need the principle to be accepted that none of the costs of the remediation of poor building works or poor standards and fire hazards should fall on leaseholders or tenants. Given that I have not had a sufficient reassurance from the Minister, I wish to test the opinion of the House.

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Moved by

[Lord Greenhalgh]

14: Clause 3, page 2, line 28, at end insert—
“( ) Section (Risk based guidance about the discharge of duties under the Fire Safety Order) comes into force at the same time as section 1 comes fully into force in relation to premises in England.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment provides that the proposed new Clause in the Minister’s name to be inserted after Clause 2 comes into force at the same time as Clause 1 in relation to premises in England.

Covid-19 Lockdown: Homelessness and Rough Sleepers

Lord Greenhalgh Excerpts

Thursday 12th November 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, I refer the House to my relevant registered interests. We are in a second pandemic, the days are getting shorter, the nights are getting longer and colder, but we have a squabbling No. 10 and a shambolic Government, with no homelessness tsar in post. Can the noble Lord tell the House why there is such a poverty of ambition to prevent homelessness and keep people off the streets this winter? Where is the noble Lord’s zeal? Where is the fire in his belly to get homelessness finally sorted out?

[The Minister of State, Home Office and Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government (Lord Greenhalgh) (Con)]

My Lords, families do tend to squabble a bit, but that has nothing to do with the massive ambition we have for ending rough sleeping. Some £700 million has been committed to end rough sleeping with a world-class policy, a programme in three stages, and the recent announcement of a further stage of the Protect programme. Our swift action has been praised by leading stakeholders, including Shelter, Crisis, St Mungo’s and Thames Reach. The policy speaks for itself: lives are being changed for the better and I see that my colleague, Minister Tolhurst, continues to lead in this regard, under the benign direction of the Secretary of State.

[Baroness Grender (LD)]

My Lords, in the spring the Everyone In scheme was a success, but post Dame Louise Casey—now the noble Baroness, Lady Casey—who is leading and taking up that role now, not at ministerial level but in Whitehall? If emergency shelters were deemed unsafe then, will the Minister confirm that they will not be used now? With so many families who rent threatened with homelessness, does the Minister agree that universal credit should cover the median rent in every part of the country, and will the Government do what they promised at the election and get on with scrapping Section 21 evictions? Finally, why are the Government only “asking” bailiffs not to carry out evictions? They have compelled so many on so much. What is so special about the bailiffs?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, that was a succession of questions. There is no doubt that the noble Baroness, Lady Casey, is a phenomenal force of nature. I watched how she took the troubled families programme and developed a fantastic resolve at all levels of government, and in the social and charitable sectors, to ensure that everyone worked together to tackle the malaise of the families who require a huge amount of support from the state—and then with the integration programme. We have really benefited from her work. However, we do see leadership from Ministers, including the Secretary of State, and a resolve to do something at all levels of government. We will build on that. As for the removal of Section 21, that is a manifesto commitment, and we will introduce legislation to deliver a better deal for renters, including repealing Section 21 of the Housing Act 1988, as a priority, once the urgency of responding to this dreadful pandemic has passed. I will write to the noble Baroness on the other matters.

[Lord Bird (CB)]

I do not know whether the Minister has read the Lancet report showing that the work done in the first lockdown led to a saving of 266 lives, that more than 1,000 people were prevented from ending up in hospital, and about 350 from ending up in intensive care. This is prevention. I have been working for the last 30 years to try to get successive Governments working on prevention—on stopping homelessness happening—because when people slip into homelessness, they die. I thank the Government for their efforts in the previous period, but I am also asking loads of questions. Where are the answers for this next period? More than anything, I want to know what we are going to do about stopping circa 200,000 people slipping into the treacle of homelessness because of their inability to pay their rent or mortgage.

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

The noble Lord makes an important point about focusing on prevention. In all areas of public policy, we want to prevent things happening in the first place. In healthcare, for example, rather than just letting the disease get worse and then responding, we want to prevent it happening in the first place. That is why the money going towards ending rough sleeping—the £700 million that has been committed and continues to be spent—is a part of the wider package for tackling homelessness. There is an absolute resolve to deal with the issues that the noble Lord raises. We will continue to focus on prevention and also on the response to those who are on the streets.

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord McNicol of West Kilbride) (Lab)]

May I gently remind noble Lords to keep their questions and answers brief? A number of noble Lords still wish to get in.

[Lord Polak (Con)]

I guess it is easy to sit on the sidelines and criticise but on the critical issue of homelessness this Government, and specifically the Secretary of State, Robert Jenrick, together with my noble friend the Minister, ought to be congratulated. As has been said, early in the pandemic they launched the Everyone In project, backed up with £700 million. In addition, the recent announcement of the Protect programme, with a further £15 million, will ensure that councils can offer everyone sleeping rough somewhere safe to go. However, does my noble friend agree that it would be reprehensible if any council used that funding for people who are not sleeping rough?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, it is important to focus the money designed for rough sleeping on rough sleeping—that is its intended purpose—but it is also important to deal with the wider issue of homelessness. I would point out that the Government have given £6.4 billion to local councils to support their communities through the pandemic.

[The Lord Bishop of Durham [V]]

The Salvation Army has an innovative project for short-term housing solutions by using “meanwhile use” land to provide high-quality modular homes rooted in church communities and supported by wider community groups. This gives the residents the provision of a flat and the relational support of the community. What consideration have Her Majesty’s Government given to the Salvation Army’s innovative approach to homelessness and similar projects?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, we want to build on what works. I will take away this idea, make sure we give it due consideration and find out how we can support the Salvation Army in its policy ideas—and potentially scale them up, if they are working well.

[Lord Griffiths of Burry Port (Lab)]

My Lords, we have almost a repeat scenario of the situation we discussed earlier this month relating to free school meals. A very good government initiative earlier in the year—Everyone In—was widely praised, but now it is no longer in that form the responsibility is being passed, through the funding agreements that have been mentioned, to local authorities. That is the answer we got about free school meals. But, as we see in this morning’s press, local councils are facing widespread financial failures and are terrifically strapped for cash. A previous question supposed that the money had to be hypothecated for people suffering from homelessness and rough sleeping—but local councils have so many priorities that will match that. This will be another postcode lottery, if we are not careful. Why can the Government not have another Marcus Rashford moment, and do a U-turn? This month of lockdown is already under way, and the Question is about this month.

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, I was, unfortunately, a local council leader during a previous Administration under the leadership of Gordon Brown, when there was no Government more focused on ring-fencing every fund. My point was that if a fund is specifically for rough sleepers, it is right and proper that it be targeted on those who are sleeping rough. Most of the money that we are providing—the £6.4 billion—is non-ring-fenced money for local councils to put where their local communities need it most.

[Lord Singh of Wimbledon (CB) [V]]

My Lords, there is a story in Sikhism about the young Guru Nanak spending money given to him for investment on food and blankets for the homeless who were shivering in the winter sun. This led to free dining areas in all the gurdwaras. Does the Minister agree that such facilities, underused in the current pandemic and common to all our different places of worship, can be a valuable resource to help the homeless on today’s streets?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

As Faith Minister, I completely agree. Places of worship, whether they are gurdwaras, temples, churches or synagogues, play a huge part in dealing with the social issues of our time, including homelessness.

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

Does my noble friend agree that rough sleepers, and those working with them, are particularly vulnerable to Covid? Will he recommend to the Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation that they should be a priority?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, I am happy to make representations to the Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation about making this decision.

Construction Products (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2020

Lord Greenhalgh Excerpts

Tuesday 10th November 2020 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Greenhalgh]

That the draft Regulations laid before the House on 15 October be approved.

[The Minister of State, Home Office and Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government (Lord Greenhalgh) (Con)]

My Lords, these regulations were laid before both Houses on 15 October 2020. They are part of the Government’s programme to update EU exit legislation to ensure that there continues to be a functioning legislative and regulatory regime at the end of the transition period. The regulations are made using powers in the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 to amend the Construction Products Regulations in the UK. They ensure that the EU construction products regulation continues to apply in Northern Ireland in accordance with the Northern Ireland protocol to the EU withdrawal agreement. They amend the remainder of the UK regime so that it applies in Great Britain only.

I start by providing some context and background to the regulations. The EU construction products regulation, or CPR, is an EU regulation that is directly applicable in all EU member states. It seeks to remove technical barriers to the trade of construction products in the European single market, and currently applies across the UK. The CPR harmonises the methods of assessment and testing, the means of declaration of product performance and the system of conformity assessment of construction products. It does not harmonise national building regulations. Individual member states remain responsible for safety, environmental, energy and other requirements applicable to construction works.

When an EU harmonised standard exists for a product, the CPR places obligations on manufacturers, distributors and importers of that product when it is placed on the market. This includes a stipulation that the product must have been accompanied by a declaration of performance and have been affixed with a “Conformité Européenne” or CE mark. At the end of the transition period, the CPR becomes retained EU law and will form part of the UK’s legal system. The construction products regulations 2019—the 2019 regulations—ensure that its provisions will have practical application in the UK. They introduced UK-wide provisions, such as the UK conformity assessment, or UKCA mark and UK designated standards, in preparation for a no-deal Brexit.

We have now left the EU, with the withdrawal agreement and an Ireland/Northern Ireland protocol. Without the amendments made by this instrument, the amendments in the 2019 regulations would apply in the whole United Kingdom, including Northern Ireland, which would not be compliant with the protocol. Regulators would lack powers to enforce the EU regulations in Northern Ireland, and manufacturers would not be able to test their product in the UK and affix the UKNI indication to place the product on the market in Northern Ireland. The general policy is to keep the same requirements set out in the 2019 regulations in Great Britain, but to introduce a Northern Ireland-compliant regime. These regulations do not change the key CPR requirements currently in place. The same standards will apply in Great Britain and Northern Ireland immediately after 31 December as they did before the end of the transition period, and products that meet Northern Ireland requirements will have unfettered access to the GB market.

The effects of these regulations can be considered in three parts. First, they will amend the 2019 regulations so that the current UK-wide provisions such as the UKCA marking and UK designated standards will become GB provisions at the end of the transition period. This will ensure that EU construction products law will apply in Northern Ireland, including CE marking and EU harmonised standards, in line with the Ireland/Northern Ireland protocol to the withdrawal agreement. Immediately following the end of the transition period, UK designated standards will be identical to those under the EU regime, so there will be no change for businesses on standards that must be met.

Secondly, these regulations make provisions for conformity assessment bodies established in the UK. They enable UK-approved bodies to continue testing against EU harmonised standards for the Northern Ireland market and introduce a UKNI indication, as required under the protocol. Where a UK-approved body undertakes the third-party conformity assessment required under the relevant EU standard, the manufacturer must affix the CE marking together with the new UKNI indication. These construction products will be recognised on the Northern Ireland market from the end of the transition period. The details of the UKNI indication will be established under a separate instrument led by BEIS. Further information on this will follow very shortly.

Thirdly, these regulations restate the enforcement provisions for Northern Ireland in relation to the EU construction products regulation and amend existing UK-wide enforcement provisions so that they apply in Great Britain. These enforcement provisions will work in a very similar way to the Construction Products Regulations 2013. They will ensure clear enforcement rules for economic operators and regulators in Great Britain and Northern Ireland where non-compliant goods are placed on either market.

In relation to Great Britain, the regulations amend the construction products enforcement rules set out in the Construction Products Regulations 2013, as amended by the 2019 regulations. This includes amendments to reflect that the CE marking, together with the UKNI indication, will be recognised in Great Britain. On Northern Ireland, the regulations provide an enforcement regime in relation to EU construction products law. This will allow the existing regime to continue largely unchanged once the transition period has ended and is necessary to allow for reference to the new UKNI indication.

Finally, these regulations also make a number of technical changes to correct deficiencies in the 2019 regulations arising from leaving the EU with the withdrawal agreement and the Ireland/Northern Ireland protocol.

Our overall approach to these amendments is entirely concurrent with the policy and legal intent of the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 and enacts the policy that the Government set out in guidance to industry in September. These regulations serve a very specific purpose: to amend the 2019 regulations to ensure a functioning legislative and regulatory regime in Great Britain and Northern Ireland. This is necessary in response to the withdrawal agreement and the Ireland/Northern Ireland protocol that the UK and the EU agreed to in January 2020.

This instrument is necessary to ensure that construction products legislation continues to function appropriately in Great Britain and Northern Ireland after the end of the transition period. I hope that colleagues will join me in supporting the draft regulations. I commend them to the Chamber.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, we have had a fascinating and lengthy debate that has raised a number of points. I thank the noble Lords, Lord Kennedy and Lord Blunkett, for pointing out that there is a lot to be learned from this example of how we can leave the EU and maintain the consistency that our builders and other users of construction products require. I want to provide a little further detail.

The noble Lord, Lord Blunkett, said that we could perhaps deal with other regulations as we have dealt with the CPR. At the end of this year we will have full control over our own laws, but while we are in the transition period we have obligations under the withdrawal agreement to transpose new EU regulations. I am sure that there are many other regulations that will need to be transposed in due course. We are committed to implementing our obligations under the withdrawal agreement and published a Command Paper in May that sets out the approach we will take. This instrument is one of many that will help to ensure a functioning statute book at the end of the transition period.

Regarding the questions posed about the enforcement regime, the new enforcement regime will allow the existing regime to continue largely unchanged. I would therefore think that the current enforcement regime will be in force in the future. However, I am happy to write to both noble Lords with the specifics of that as I do not pretend to be an absolute expert on the current regime. The point, however, is that we will be harmonised with the EU as we leave it and how far we diverge will be a choice for future Governments. It is fair to say that there are sometimes opportunities in diverging, and in other areas there is opportunity in maintaining convergence. That is an important policy choice for this Government and successive Governments.

The Government believe that the regulations are needed to ensure that the construction products legislation continues to function in Great Britain and Northern Ireland after the end of the transition period. I have tried to answer all the questions—or at least the single pertinent question—but if not, I will write in more detail with more information. I hope that noble Lords will join me in supporting these regulations, which I commend to the House.

Motion agreed.

Planning: Accessible Homes

Lord Greenhalgh Excerpts

Wednesday 4th November 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Bull (CB)]

My Lords, with the permission of my noble friend Lady Greengross, and at her request, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in her name on the Order Paper.

[The Minister of State, Home Office and Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government (Lord Greenhalgh) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government place great importance on the provision of suitable homes for people with disabilities. This is why we are currently consulting on making higher accessibility standards mandatory in reviewing the provisions for accessible and adaptable housing within building regulations. Our consultation has proposals to see more homes delivered, and authorities still need to plan for the housing needs of different groups within their communities, including the needs of people with disabilities.

[Baroness Bull (CB)]

My Lords, housing with care, sometimes described as assisted living or extra-care housing, provides a vital alternative to residential care for those older people who can no longer live on their own but do not need 24-hour complex medical supervision. It protects safety and security while boosting independence, health and well-being. Will the Minister say what the Government are doing to support housing-with-care developments in any new planning system?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, we are currently consulting on the accessibility standards. I propose that we wait until the end of the consultation, which completes on 1 December, for our response to that.

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

My Lords, I support the proposal made by many groups representing those with a disability that Part M of the Building Regulations should be raised to what is known as the adaptable and acceptable standard, or M4, Category 2. This would enable more people to live healthy and independent lives without having to move. Further to what my noble friend just said about the consultation document, when will the results be published and when will its conclusions be implemented?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My noble friend should know that the response to the accessible-homes consultation will be published by March 2021. The implementation of any change will depend on the course of action that the Government take.

[Baroness Prashar (CB) [V]]

My Lords, the need for accessible housing is increasing and we urgently need homes that meet appropriate needs. Delaying provision of such housing and doing nothing is not an option. How quickly are the Government intending to implement the outcome of the consultation?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

I refer to my previous answer. The results of the consultation will be published by March 2021.

[Baroness Young of Old Scone (Lab) [V]]

The Minister indicated that more homes were needed, as well as more accessible homes. We know that the viability test often puts the lid on accessibility being built into the equation by developers when they say that they cannot afford to provide these standards. Can the Minister assure the House that, in this consultation, the Government will not allow developers to hold them to ransom, as well as those in need of these higher levels of accessibility in their homes?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, the Government recognise the importance of accessible housing for the elderly and the disabled. I point to the strengthening of the policy approach in the NPPF in July 2018 and in the planning guidance issued in June 2019 on housing for the disabled. These point to the direction in which we are travelling to ensure that there is enough accessible housing. As your Lordships know, we have been looking at Part M of the Building Regulations as well.

[Baroness Verma (Con)]

My Lords, while my noble friend the Minister is looking at the consultation process, will he also look at the new ways of designing housing within an urban planning system? That really should be reflective of the 21st century. Covid has made us all realise that mental as well as physical well-being is essential, and intergenerational living is something that we should seriously consider. We should think about housing for the elderly or disabled not just as separate from us but rather as integrated with us.

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, my noble friend is right: we are living longer and getting older. It is important that we have accessible housing for the elderly and learn from models across the country where there is both public and private housing. Proposals for accessible housing have to be relevant to older people, as she so rightly states.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, I draw the attention of the House to my relevant registered interests as a vice-president of the Local Government Association and as a trustee of the United St Saviour’s Charity in Southwark. As part of the modern almshouse that we are building, 11 of the 57 units will be for people with physical disabilities and fully wheelchair-accessible. This whole development has been the result of collaboration, with the developer delivering on its obligations to the community, Southwark Council providing the land and investment from United St Saviour’s to develop and manage the facility. What guarantees can the Minister give to the House to reassure us that this sort of development will be encouraged and supported in the new planning regime?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, we recognise the importance of the almshouses and that they are growing at their fastest rate in more than a decade. We are currently consulting widely on the proposals for reform set out in the planning White Paper and will listen carefully to all the representations made, including from those representing almshouses.

[Lord Best (CB) [V]]

My Lords, it is excellent that the Government seem likely to be raising standards of accessibility for all new homes. When the volume housebuilders object that this will damage profits, will the Minister recall that when housebuilders made similar complaints last time around—when the standards were raised 30 years ago—extra costs actually proved minimal? Profits did not fall and hundreds of thousands of households have enjoyed better homes. This time, will the Government stand firm again?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, this Government will not seek anything other than an upward drift in the standards that we need for the 21st century. We recognise that developer profits are far greater than those of the construction industry, where they are typically about 4%; it is often up to a third for large-scale developments. The noble Lord, Lord Best, is therefore pointing in the right direction in respect of our ability to raise building standards.

[Baroness Blackwood of North Oxford (Con) [V]]

My Lords, accessible homes need accessible transport. While it certainly makes sense to reduce health inequalities through promoting active transport, there will always be some people with disabilities who need to use cars door to door. We are not lazy or bad citizens: we are just trying to play a full part in society while managing our condition. A poorly executed and abrupt shift from car use to congestion charges, large pedestrian areas and public transport that is not yet disabled-accessible risks no-go areas for those with limited mobility. Will the Minister commit to smarter community design options that achieve public health aims without designing in exclusions or penalties for those with limited mobility?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for pointing out a report which is just over a year old. With the Covid-19 pandemic, we are seeing a massive impact on our town centres and we need good policy to ensure that we have more inclusive and smarter options for urban design. Of course, we will look carefully at that report.

[Baroness Thomas of Winchester (LD) [V]]

My Lords, following on from the question from the noble Lord, Lord Best, does the Minister agree that changing the regulations for homes to be built to accessible and adaptable standards should not mean that fewer homes will be built, as the additional costs per typical dwelling are very small?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, I made clear in response to the noble Lord, Lord Best, that we can raise standards while continuing the drive for the numbers of homes, of all types and tenures, that this country so badly needs. However, we have to wait to have time to respond to the ongoing consultation.

[The Lord Bishop of St Albans [V]]

My Lords, with regions such as the north-west, the north-east and Yorkshire hosting less than one disabled-access home for every 100 homes, and regions such as the West Midlands hosting just over one disabled-access home for every 300 homes, given that 15.2% of the population is elderly and 18% of the population is disabled, is it now time that the Government mandated targets for disabled-access homes rather than simply relying on local authorities?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, I am afraid I am the wrong person to answer that. I spent 20 years in local government and have every confidence that local councils know the needs of their communities, and can respond to them in a way that ensures we see the drive for standards and improved accessibility needed in our homes.

[The Lord Speaker (Lord Fowler)]

My Lords, I am glad to report that all supplementary questions have been asked and we now move to the next Question.

Covid-19: Places of Worship

Lord Greenhalgh Excerpts

Tuesday 3rd November 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Moylan]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to the official guidance to address the Covid-19 pandemic issued following the Prime Minister’s remarks on Saturday 31 October, whether they will now produce the evidence that justifies the cessation of acts of public worship in places of worship.

[The Minister of State, Home Office and Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government (Lord Greenhalgh) (Con)]

My Lords, we have come to a critical point in the fight against Covid-19. The R rate is above one across England, and the ONS estimates that an average of one in 100 people has the virus. To protect the NHS and get the R rate below one, we must limit our interaction with others. Therefore, with great regret, while places of worship will remain open for individual prayer, communal worship cannot take place at this time.

[Lord Moylan (Con)]

My Lords, my Question had, I thought, the merit of inviting a simple binary answer, yes or no, but that is not quite what it got. This Question is about evidence. Evidence matters to science. Clearly, my noble friend the Minister is not going to announce a reversal of government policy, but can he at least give an assurance to your Lordships’ House that if these measures are continued beyond 2 December or are reimposed in the future either nationally or locally, despite the many efforts to make places of worship Covid secure, that will not happen without the Government offering some evidence for these restrictions on acts of public worship being renewed or extended?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for the focus on evidence. Following the meeting that I chaired on behalf of the Prime Minister of the Covid-19 places of worship task force, Public Health England is looking at the evidence around places of worship and proliferation of the virus. I am aware that a tremendous amount of effort has been put into ensuring that places of worship are Covid secure.

[Lord Griffiths of Burry Port (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I am glad to hear the Minister’s recognition that churches have acted diligently in making sure that things are safe. Over the last 10 weeks, I have either led or attended acts of worship in three different churches, and meticulous attention has been given to all aspects of proper behaviour in such circumstances. Methodists are even reduced to not singing our hymns: we are reduced to humming behind our masks or, indeed, some kind of Trappist silence. On behalf of the many elderly people for whom the act of worship is the only social activity they have from one week to another, when can their needs be taken seriously into account so that they can enjoy a sense of well-being, even in these difficult times?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, we recognise that this lockdown will be a very difficult period for people of faith too. The position is somewhat better than in the first lockdown, when places of worship were shut entirely. I note what the noble Lord has requested. We recognise that some significant events for all faiths will be taking place during this lockdown, and I am sure that this will be kept under review by the Government.

[Baroness Eaton (Con) [V]]

My Lords, the number of people suffering from mental illness and depression is rising during this pandemic. At such times, many people experience real spiritual hunger and wish for guidance. Where do they go if places of worship are closed? Worship and prayer are not a private matter; they feed the human spirit. It is that spiritual motivation that encourages people to support and work for the general good. As my noble friend said, churches and places of worship have become extremely Covid compliant. Can my noble friend the Minister recognise that and provide flexibility for Covid-compliant places of worship? When we come out of this pandemic, we will need people who have been able to gain strength from worship and prayer throughout.

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, my noble friend will be pleased to know that the members of the places of worship task force have made that precise point to the Prime Minister: that public worship is Covid-19 secure; that it is essential to sustain our service; that it is necessary for social cohesion and connectedness; that it is important for the mental health of our nation; and that it is an essential sign of hope. Those points have been well made, but we understand that there is a difficult balance to be made, as we also need to ensure that we battle to contain the virus, whose prevalence is increasing. However, those points have been made to the Prime Minister.

[Lord Harries of Pentregarth (CB) [V]]

Although it is true that churches are remaining open for private prayer, is it not important to recognise that the Christian faith is essentially a corporate activity? It is a gathering of the Lord’s people around the Lord’s table on the Lord’s day. Similarly, Islam is no less a communal religion. My experience has been exactly the same as that of the noble Lord, Lord Griffiths of Burry Port. The Anglican and Roman Catholic churches that I have experienced have been absolutely meticulous. I was glad to hear that the task force is examining the evidence. Will the Minister give an assurance that, as soon as some evidence is available about churches’ impact, or lack of impact, on Covid-19, he will be able to report to this House?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, I am very happy to give that assurance. As soon as we have the specific evidence of the review by Public Health England, that will be made available to all.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, my noble friend has not given a single shred of evidence as to why churches should not be open for public worship. I want to put a specific point to him. On the morning of Sunday 8 November, we are planning a remembrance service in Lincoln Cathedral—an immense space where everybody can be properly socially distanced. Instead, the Government have come up with an imbecilic answer—that the veterans, all of whom are 90 and over, can stand in the cold and be rained on but they cannot go into a safe, socially distanced cathedral. This is a disgrace.

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, I recognise that this is a difficult time for people of all faiths. Remembrance Sunday services are of course an important part of celebrating what generations before have done for this country, but they can take place at the Cenotaph in a Covid-secure way. I recognise the point that my noble friend makes but we should also recognise that British Hindus will not be able to celebrate their version of Christmas—Diwali—during this period, and there is also the birthday of Guru Nanak for British Sikhs. We understand that these are sacrifices but, as someone who, during the first lockdown, lost his mother, who was very much a believer, spent three days in hospital before she died and said her rosary every day, I understand what it means to have faith. On Sunday, for the first time, I was able to take my father, who survived, to the church where they worshipped every week. That was very difficult for me—he was very emotional—so I understand the point that my noble friend makes.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, will the Minister, if he has not done so already, read the letters to their congregations from the Catholic Archbishop of Southwark, the most reverend John Wilson, and the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Southwark? In times of great trouble, worry, hardship and national emergency, places of worship of all faiths offer beacons of light and comfort to many. The Minister has already heard the feelings from across the House about the points raised today; will he agree to talk to the Secretary of State and other ministerial colleagues to see what can be done to allow socially distanced worship to commence in some form as quickly as possible?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, I recognise that a difficult decision has been taken by this Government and we are bound by collective responsibility. However, I am very happy to make those representations on behalf of people of all faiths and none to ensure that the core mission of places of worship can be fulfilled at the earliest opportunity.

[Baroness Altmann (Con)]

My Lords, I sympathise with my noble friend who in turn, as the House can tell, has enormous sympathy with the views expressed. I implore him to help colleagues and the Prime Minister understand the impact on mental well-being, the sense of belonging and the social capital of our nation. These are being eroded, and the sense of community that sometimes gets people out of bed in the morning has been put at risk. These places of worship have put in place so much protection: many are safer than your Lordships’ House. I hope that the Government might reconsider.

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, my noble friend puts her point very eloquently. I understand the effort that places of worship have taken to make themselves Covid-secure for a whole range of activities, including the core important function of communal worship. Again, I will make every endeavour to ensure that the Government recognise that. I invoke the name of the Chief Rabbi, who told me that people of faith tend to live longer and have a better quality of life precisely because they converge in a communal way.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, is there not a grave danger that, in our increasingly secular society, too little account is taken of people’s religious sensibilities, when millions of people from a variety of faiths live in this country? Do we not underestimate the importance of people’s sacramental and spiritual needs, denial of which not only threatens the principle of religious freedom but jeopardises people’s personal well-being, as the Minister acknowledged? What other European countries have taken such draconian powers? Is Angela Merkel not right in saying that, as a matter of principle, she could not justify such infringements of private and personal rights as well as communal needs while keeping open schools and nurseries? Why should it be any different here, and when does he think he will be able to publish the evidence to which he referred?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Alton, makes a very important point. We should look to international comparisons to understand how places of worship have played a part in the spiritual well-being of people while not accelerating the virus. We need the data on that and as soon as it is available in this country it will be published at the earliest opportunity; I have committed to that. I will write to him about international comparisons.

[Lord Lilley (Con)]

I too sympathise with my noble friend, who is obviously in an embarrassing position, but will he accept that we all worship what we value most, be it the God of love, the love of Mammon, or the power of the state? Does the fact that we are forbidden to worship God and encouraged to work in the economy but obliged to obey the rules of the state, even in the absence of any evidence, suggest that the Government put the state at the top of the list of things that they value?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, it is very difficult for me to hear such a question put so eloquently by someone whom I regard as a sort of childhood hero. Those who made this difficult decision feel that there can still be a form of communal worship, as many people of faith have gone through the experience of going to mass or a service in a mosque via Zoom or other technology. That shift has taken place. It is not the same, but even the service I went to was very limited in capacity but many more were participating remotely. That is available as we enter the second lockdown. I really pray that we learn to live with this virus in a way that does not impinge on people of faith.

[Baroness Gardner of Parkes (Con) [V]]

My Lords, in the consideration of all this, was any thought given to the projection of possible virus during singing, as opposed to other parts of the service, and whether there was a need for special attention to be paid to that detail to enable these churches to again be open? Even if they have sufficient spacing, there is a danger that someone who already is a carrier has a projectile element in their voice and their breath going out, so this should be taken into account.

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, singing remains a high-risk activity at this time, so there cannot be any congregational singing in any form. Professionals may still practise music or record music for broadcast from a place of worship during this period.

[Lord Balfe (Con)]

My Lords, I draw the Minister’s attention to the statement from Cardinal Vincent Nichols on behalf of the Catholic hierarchy. He said that,

“we have not yet seen any evidence whatsoever that would make the banning of communal worship, with all its human costs, a productive part of combating the virus.”

That is a very clear statement on behalf of all the Catholic bishops. The right honourable Sir Edward Leigh MP, the president of the Catholic Union—I declare an interest as a life member of that body—states in a letter to the Prime Minister:

“We have seen no evidence of people meeting for church services contributing to the spread of the virus in this country.”


He has, however, suggested that the Government, as an exception, could allow religious services as long as all those attending apply online beforehand. A number of churches are using this method. Are the Government prepared to move even an inch on this, because there has not been a single statement in this debate in favour of what they are doing?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, I hear what my noble friend said, and I point to the Prime Minister’s remarks in the other place. He said that this was a burden on people of faith, but he reminded everybody that this was only for 28 days. He offered the hope—the candle in the darkness—that, if we got this right, we would be able to go back to something much more like normal life before Christmas. The first day of Advent falls towards the end of this period; as we know, the period will be kept under review.

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Brougham and Vaux) (Con)]

My Lords, the time allocated for this Private Notice Question has elapsed.

Non-Domestic Rating (Rates Retention, Levy and Safety Net and Levy Account: Basis of Distribution) (Amendment) Regulations 2020

Lord Greenhalgh Excerpts

Tuesday 3rd November 2020 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Greenhalgh]

That the draft Regulations laid before the House on 7 October be approved.

[The Minister of State, Home Office and Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government (Lord Greenhalgh) (Con)]

My Lords, the business rates retention scheme, introduced in 2013-14, allows local government to keep 50% of the business rates it raises locally and, more importantly, 50% of the growth in those business rates, over and above the sums with which it is provided through the local government finance settlement. In 2019-20, this was estimated by authorities to be worth an additional £2.5 billion of funding.

The day-to-day operation of the business rates retention scheme is technically complex. I look forward to contributions from noble Lords on this matter. It is governed by a number of pieces of secondary legislation, setting out the technical rules that govern the flow of money between central government, billing authorities and major precepting authorities.

The regulations before the House today make a number of important technical amendments to those regulations to update the existing framework. This is vital to the continued smooth running of the business rates retention scheme and will ensure that everyone gets the funding they are supposed to get. These regulations make three sets of changes: they ensure the correct calculation of the income to be retained by authorities which have, or have had in the past, a higher level of retained business rates income; they make the necessary changes to the rates retention system following the most recent local government restructuring; and they adjust the calculation of retained rates income, against which we determine levy and safety net payments, to ensure that local authorities are not doubly compensated for giving business rates relief for telecommunications infrastructure.

I will now say a little more about each of these changes and the reasons for them. On the calculation of pilot authorities’ income/errors, as I said, the rates retention scheme is run according to a series of regulations, key to which are the Non-Domestic Rating (Rates Retention) Regulations 2013 and the Non-Domestic Rating (Levy and Safety Net) Regulations 2013. These set out the basis on which the system is run, including authorities’ shares of locally retained business rates income, safety net thresholds and levy rates.

Since 2017, some local authorities have been allowed to keep a higher proportion of business rates income. Authorities in five devolution deal areas retain 100% of their business rates income, and authorities chosen to be part of the business rates pilots in 2018-19 and 2019-20 retained 100% or 75% of their business rates income for the relevant year.

Regulations were put in place to effect those changes. However, a few minor omissions or errors were made in the framework for the 2019-20 pilots in the Non-Domestic Rating (Rates Retention and Levy and Safety Net) (Amendment) and (Levy Account: Basis of Distribution) Regulations 2019. These include the 75% pilots’ levy rates, apportionment of the collection fund surplus or deficit for one authority and uprating of the top-up and tariff payments for London, and 100% business rates retention authorities in 2019-20. These regulations put those right. For this reason, these regulations will be made available free of charge to any party who purchased the 2019 regulations. Further minor amendments are made by the regulations to provide the basis for uprating 100% business rates retention authorities’ top-up and tariff payments in 2020-21.

Turning now to the restructuring of local authorities, following the restructuring of Buckinghamshire County Council and its constituent district councils, Aylesbury Vale, Chiltern, South Bucks and Wycombe, into one unitary Buckinghamshire Council from 2020-21, amendments are required for the running of the rates retention system. Two minor changes are required to establish the requirements of the new authority under the rates retention system. These are, first, an adjustment to a figure which determines the cost of operating in the area and therefore the cost of collection of business rates for the authority, and, secondly, a new value for Buckinghamshire used to calculate the amount of compensation it will receive for small business rates relief.

In 2019, the Government set out in statute the basis of distribution on which any surplus on the levy account would be made; this occurs where levy payments exceed safety net payments in a year. The basis of distribution is based on local authorities’ relative need as defined by their settlement funding assessment, which is composed of baseline funding level and revenue support grant. A small amendment is made by these regulations to the basis of distribution to reflect a revised agreement on revenue support grant between two councils which restructured back in 2019-20. This revised split adjusts the allocation that the Bournemouth, Christchurch and Poole Council, and Dorset Council, would receive should the Government determine an amount of any surplus on the business rates levy account to be distributed in the future.

Turning now to adjustments to take into account telecoms relief, an amendment is made to the regulations concerning the calculation of retained rates income, against which levy and safety net payments for authorities are determined. In determining the amount of safety net payment an authority may require, or the amount of levy on growth it is required to pay in a year, the levy and safety net calculations take into account a Section 31 grant compensation for business rates reliefs received by an authority as the result of changes made by the Government. If we did not do this, local authorities could end up effectively being compensated twice for implementing these reliefs. These regulations make the required changes to ensure that any telecoms relief that an authority has awarded is taken into account in these calculations.

In conclusion, these regulations perform a range of minor, highly technical amendments to achieve the correct basis on which the rates retention system is run for 2019-20 and 2020-21. These regulations do not enact new policies, but rather ensure the fulfilment of the original policy intention as approved in prior years via the settlement or by the statutory instrument. I beg to move.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, we have had a good innings on the regulations before us today. I thank noble Lords on all sides of the House for their contributions. I shall take this opportunity to provide some further detail on some of the points which have been raised.

The noble Lord, Lord Kennedy of Southwark, mentioned Millwall Football Club. As a Chelsea supporter, it pains me to say that they are some way down the league, but I pay tribute to Millwall and what they do. I saw that as deputy mayor for policing and crime, and I also saw what Charlton did in south-east London to deal with the scourge of knife crime. We must remember Millwall’s chant: “No one likes us, we don’t care.” That is not the case with the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy; we all love him.

I will take back the points made by the noble Baroness, Lady Scott, about responsibility for these issues. She asked a number of technical questions, on which I will write to her. The non-domestic revaluation Bill has gone through the Commons and we are waiting for Second Reading in this House, when time allows. The noble Baroness also asked about the working group which comprises the LGA, CIPFA and a range of local authorities. It has been in existence since 2013 and looks at the technical operation of the rates retention scheme. On behalf of the Government, I thank the working group for the work it is has done so that we can understand better how the rates retention scheme plays out locally.

The noble Lord, Lord Liddle, asked about the future of local government finance reforms. In May, we announced our intention to delay proposals to deliver the review of relative needs and resources—formerly the Fair Funding Review—in 2021-22. The decision was taken to allow the Government and councils to focus on meeting the immediate public health challenges posed by the pandemic. The approach to business rates retention in 2021-22 is under consideration and will be clarified at the spending review and provisional local government finance settlement.

Looking to the future and in determining the next steps, we will need to consider the impact the pandemic has had on demand for public services across local government and its access to resources. As the local government finance system moves into a more stable position, we will set out the timetable for our proposed way forward.

The noble Lords, Lord Liddle and Lord Shipley, raised the need for a fundamental review of business rates. At Budget 2020, the Government committed to a fundamental review of those rates. The Treasury is currently carrying out that review, which will look at all aspects of business rates as a tax. The Government have said that they will consider carefully the link between the fundamental review of business rates and the future of business rate retention. We will engage with the sector—local councils—very carefully as part of that review. Of course, we have launched an unprecedented support package for businesses, and business rates income has changed drastically in response to Covid-19. We will provide an update on the fundamental review as and when we can.

The noble Baroness, Lady Scott, asked for an explanation of what I believe the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, described as one of the most complicated systems, involving algebraic formulae and decimals to four decimal places. I certainly do not understand the mathematics, but it is quite straightforward conceptually. Fifty per cent of the business rates collected are retained by councils. Where there are two tiers, the upper tier retains 20%—in London, that would be the GLA—and 30% is retained by the boroughs. Then, there is an element of redistribution, but also a safety net so that a council bears only the first 7.5% of losses and 82.5%—the rest of the losses—are protected by the central pot.

Does that make it infernally complex? There needs to be a debate about local government reform. Do we go down the path of setting areas free so that local leaders can drive and grow their tax bases? Then we would not see the resource equalisation that we have today. Do we go for a halfway house? That is a debate that will have its time. I have my views, and I hope noble Lords will have the opportunity to express their opinions. It is a legitimate debate about the future conceptually of local government finance.

I have put on my Middlesex tie. I got one cap for Middlesex as a schoolboy. It was not for cricket; it was for rugby. I know that the son of the noble Lord, Lord Botham, was an exceptionally good rugby player, and the noble Lord himself played centre forward for Scunthorpe as well as being a brilliant cricketer for England. We must remember that his moment of greatness happened at Headingly in 1981. I remember it so well. He took, I believe, six wickets in the first innings when we looked like we were going to lose. By the second innings the nation thought we had lost the Ashes to the Australians who, I am sure noble Lords will agree, deserve a good beating from time to time. The noble Lord stepped in and that moment of greatness was when he started smashing the ball across the park. I believe one shot went into the confectionary stall and out again. I had the commentary of Richie Benaud ringing in my ears. That moment of greatness changed the course of the match. I think the odds on an England victory were 500:1 at the time and some Australian players had even put a bet on. I think that is probably illegal today.

The true greatness was also the captain, a Middlesex man. I am sure noble Lords will agree that the captain, Mike Brearley, knew when to play the noble Lord, Lord Botham, and when to make the best of his talent as a swashbuckler. That swashbuckling talent is now heard about at Select Committees. Officials will say to you, “I will be Boycott so that you can be Botham”. But they will also say, “You must keep your feet on the ground, Minister”.

Chandru Dissanayeke is a senior official in one of my departments, MHCLG. He is Sri Lankan by birth. His uncle played for the Sri Lankan team. Now, this is apocryphal, so I will have to get the noble Lord, Lord Botham, to confirm or deny this. Apparently, the noble Lord said to Sunil Gavaskar, “To get a letter to me in my county of Somerset you just have to put ‘Botham, Somerset’”. Sunil Gavaskar turned to him and said: “To get a letter to me you just have to put ‘Gavaskar, India’ and it will reach me’”. That gives you an idea that fame is sometimes fleeting.

I was hoping that the noble Lord, Lord Botham, would be here today. It is a pity that he has not been able to be here today in person. I hope that when events allow we can have a drink together in the Pugin Room. It would be a lifelong dream for me, and I am sure noble Lords will see his contributions for many years.

My noble friend Lord Bourne asked so many questions. I have them all written down here. I will put a letter in writing in the Library. There are a lot of technical points and I think it is better to get a full response in writing. It has been an incredible debate, with the combination of the brilliance of the noble Lord, Lord Botham, and the eloquence of so many noble Lords.

Motion agreed.