Building Safety Bill

Lord Greenhalgh Excerpts

Lords Hansard - Part 2 & Report stage
Tuesday 29th March 2022 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Greenhalgh]

21: Clause 57, page 80, line 8, at end insert—
“(3A) The different provision that may be made by the regulations by virtue of section 120A(2)(b) includes in particular different provision in relation to—(a) persons who are eligible to be members of a building industry scheme and are not members of that scheme, and(b) other persons.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment clarifies that regulations under this Clause may make different provision in relation to persons who are eligible, but not members, of a scheme established under Clause 128 and other persons.

[The Minister of State, Home Office and Department for Levelling Up, Housing & Communities (Lord Greenhalgh) (Con)]

My Lords, I am very pleased to speak to a group of amendments that will strengthen our solution in law to ensure that the industry pays to remediate all unsafe high-rise and medium-rise buildings for which it is responsible, and contributes to fund the remediation of all cladding on 11-metre to 18-metre buildings. As discussed during our debate in Committee, we need to take action against those unwilling to make these commitments and impose a solution in law to make sure that developers and manufacturers take responsibility for rectifying building safety defects—the polluter must pay.

Amendments 133 to 136 set out a number of changes to the definition of associated persons within the leaseholder protections provisions. Amendment 137 sets out that partnerships are captured within the definition of an associated company and Amendment 139 defines joint ventures. This will ensure that well-resourced companies cannot make use of complex corporate structures to evade their responsibilities. These amendments pierce the corporate veil.

Amendment 179 confers a power to make regulations to require landlords to provide information to a relevant tenant or other prescribed person

I will now speak to amendments we are making to Clauses 128 and 129, which I moved in Committee. As noble Lords may remember, these clauses give the Government the power to establish building industry schemes. We want to use this power to enable us to establish a scheme to distinguish between building industry actors who have committed to act responsibly and make buildings safe, and irresponsible actors who have failed to do so. The amendments tabled on 22 March add detail to those powers, to reflect more clearly the Government’s intentions and to provide Parliament and the public with more information on the purpose of any building industry scheme or schemes we set up, together with indicative examples of the kinds of membership conditions that eligible industry actors may need to meet to be part of a scheme.

We have made it clear that we expect the industry to act now to take responsibility for fixing building safety defects, and our principal objective in establishing a scheme under this power would be to make sure that we can hold industry to account against this and other obligations. Examples of the kinds of membership conditions that may apply to members of a scheme in connection with these purposes include: the remedying of defects in buildings to which an industry actor has a connection; and making financial contributions towards remediation of defects in buildings, including by way of contribution to a general industry fund to pay for remediation.

We may also require scheme members not to use certain construction products made by prescribed manufacturers—for example, cladding and insulation products made by manufacturers who have failed to step up and commit to an industry solution by making a financial contribution to remediating unsafe buildings.

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We know that the sector already faces huge cost pressures, not least because of the general maintenance costs associated with our ageing social housing stock. If social landlords have limited access to government funding, they will have to divert their own strained resources for maintenance and new build supply into building safety remediation, thus undermining the sector. It does concern us that if this is not taken into account, there will be a negative impact on those in housing need and particularly on the quality of housing for some of the poorest people in our country, for whom we know social housing needs a lot of improvement. This is very important to us; we believe it is a knock-on effect that must be avoided. I will listen very carefully to what the Minister has to say, but if we do not have a reply that we feel is substantive, we will be looking to divide the House on this matter.

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

I thank noble Lords who have spoken in this long—a little over an hour on one group—but important debate on ensuring that the polluter pays. I thank the noble Baronesses, Lady Hayman and Lady Pinnock, for Amendment 22, on the levy on social housing. The noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, raised the issues of exemptions from the building safety levy for social housing providers and who the details of the buildings levy will apply to in secondary legislation.

I am pleased to inform the noble Baroness that we are considering an exemption from the levy for affordable housing as a whole, including social housing, housing for rent or sale at least 20% below market rent or sales rates, and shared ownership. The Government recognise that applying a levy to affordable housing would increase the cost of developing affordable housing and would therefore be likely to disincentivise supply, as the noble Baroness said. We consulted on this exemption for affordable housing in our consultation on the levy, which ran from July to October last year.

I hope the noble Baroness understands that her suggestion is under careful consideration and will be addressed in secondary legislation. I will probably have to roughly translate: she should be reassured that the building safety levy will not apply to public housing. That probably makes it a little easier for her to decide what she wants to do.

I turn now to Amendment 200, on the leaseholder protection fund, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, and the noble Lord, Lord Stunell, which would require the Government to use funds raised by the levy to refund leaseholders who have already paid for safety works. While a noble thing to do, the Government’s primary aim is and should be to protect leaseholders from building safety risks and enable work to be undertaken to ensure this. For this reason, we will not be able to accept the amendment.

On Amendment 221, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, for this amendment. We share her determination to make sure that the industry acts now to take responsibility for fixing building safety defects and that the burden should not fall on leaseholders or taxpayers. The whole tone of the amendment is to get on with remediation and I have great sympathy for that. The principal objective of Clauses 128 and 129 is to make sure that responsible parties pay and to enable us to hold the industry to account. The further amendment I spoke to earlier will make it clear that we can link the scheme to the planning system.

Together, these powers will allow us to monitor compliance of members of the responsible actors scheme and make sure that members take responsibility and act promptly to make buildings safe. We do not believe a 5-year deadline needs to be inserted into the Bill. Our intention is for the measure to achieve its objectives much more quickly. Those that do not meet the scheme conditions may lose scheme membership and may immediately be subject to the planning prohibition, as our amendments make clear. A focus on pace is already built into the Government’s approach. I hope this reassures the noble Baroness that her intention has been more than met by the Government through this Bill, just in another way.

I turn now to Amendment 231 on social landlords and defects, tabled by the noble Baronesses, Lady Hayman and Lady Pinnock. The Bill already makes provision to protect leaseholders from unreasonable costs and allow guilty parties to be pursued. It contains a requirement on landlords to take reasonable steps to pursue other cost recovery avenues before seeking to recover the costs of remediation works from leaseholders. They need to provide evidence to the leaseholders of the steps taken. Social landlords will have to undertake these measures, including pursuing construction companies or installers where applicable.

To help all landlords, including social landlords, the Government are bringing forward an ambitious toolkit of other measures to allow those responsible to be pursued. This includes extending the limitation period under Section 1 of the Defective Premises Act 1972 to apply retrospectively for 30 years. We are also allowing the High Courts to extend the reach of civil liability to associated companies and creating a new cause of action. This will allow manufacturers, distributors and sellers of construction products to be pursued where defective or mis-sold products have been used in the construction of a dwelling, or where further works are carried out to that dwelling, rendering it unfit for habitation. These amendments make it easier for those affected to force those responsible for defective buildings—developers and construction products manufacturers—to pay.

While we are making it easier to pursue third parties, in parallel, we continue to protect leaseholders, so they are not paying for unreasonable remediation costs. The Bill introduces new statutory provisions which provide that cladding remediation costs cannot be passed on to qualifying leaseholders in buildings over 11 metres. The law is already clear that service charges and any increase in cost must be reasonable. Finally, the Government set a rent policy for social housing which determines the maximum amount of rent that social tenants may be charged and the maximum amount by which rents may increase each year. The rent standard prevents unforeseen hikes to tenants’ rents and is enforced by the Regulator of Social Housing.

Turning now to Amendment 232 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, and the noble Lord, Lord Stunell, the service charge is the means by which fire safety costs would be recovered and the leaseholder protections measures already prevent costs being passed to leaseholders above the permitted maximum.

I now turn to Amendment 233, tabled by my noble friends Lord Young of Cookham and Lord Blencathra, which seeks to impose a duty on local authorities to pursue responsible developers. It imposes requirements on local authorities to remediate buildings with defects and to recover funds from responsible parties. If no funds can be recovered, the Secretary of State would be required to reimburse the local authority.

We have been clear that industry is responsible for remediating defective buildings. We expect developers to remediate buildings they had a role in developing or refurbishing. Where this does not happen, building owners and landlords will have new powers to pursue those responsible. Local authorities will also have powers under our new remediation orders and remediation contribution orders, as will other regulatory bodies. However, to impose a duty on local authorities to fix buildings or pursue responsible parties is not the right approach. This would absolve industry of its duty to resolve the crisis and building owners and landlords of their responsibilities to make buildings safe. It would also place an unacceptable burden on the taxpayer.

The amendment seeks to create a taxpayer backstop by requiring the Secretary of State to reimburse local authorities for costs they cannot recover. We have been very clear that it is wrong to look to the taxpayer for further funding to fix defective buildings. For these reasons, we will not be able to accept the amendment. I want to deal with the specific issue of the remediator of last resort. I understand where my noble friend Lord Young is coming from. We have asked the industry to provide a fully funded solution for both the cladding and non-cladding costs, including fixing their own buildings and contributing to a fund for the very orphan buildings he has highlighted of between 11 and 18 metres that need cladding remediation. The focus of the industry is on fixing its own buildings, and therefore we can begin to be more focused on where we apply taxpayer funds.

Finally, I address Amendments 201, 202, 229, 234, 235, 236 and 237 in the name of the noble Earl, Lord Lytton. Amendments 201 and 202 would hold the Crown liable where properties escheat—that is probably not the right pronunciation—and would prevent liquidators and trustees in bankruptcy renouncing the leases of buildings with fire safety defects. The Bill already prevents freeholders evading liability by simply escheating their properties where they do not want to pay. It also makes provisions in relation to insolvency and bankruptcy. Freeholders will still be liable where they were, or were connected to, the developer, or had a net worth over £2 million per in-scope building on 14 February. As I have said before, taxpayers should not be held liable. For this reason, I will not be able to accept these amendments. Amendment 229 is unnecessary as landlords are already prevented from passing on costs unless they have explored all other routes of funding.

I turn to the important Amendments 234 to 237. These cover building safety cost orders, providing powers to make regulations, stipulating liability and establishing a building safety cost fund. Liability for remediation costs is already set out in the Bill, as are provisions for building owners and landlords to go after associated developers, companies and manufacturers of defective products. For this reason, I will not be able to accept these amendments.

My noble friends Lady Neville-Rolfe and Lord Young of Cookham raised the position of enfranchised leaseholders and asked whether we have made life harder for them via Amendments 186 to 193. I want to be absolutely clear that nothing in the amendments increases liabilities for enfranchised leaseholders. No leaseholder will be worse off; all are measures to make the polluter pays principle apply to enfranchised leaseholders.

I hope that I have gone some way to provide assurances on the Government’s approach.

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

Before my noble friend sits down, I am really grateful to him for the explanation he has set out but can he tell the House what happens where there is a building and no one has any money— the leaseholders cannot afford it, there is no freeholder and there is no developer or contractor to pursue? Who then puts that building right?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, in practical terms, we have a £5.1 billion fund, of which we have committed the first stage of £1 billion. We have an additional £4.1 billion for buildings over 18 metres and an additional £4 billion for cladding remediation, yet we are asking industry to fix its own buildings. That gives us the ability to focus on the few buildings my noble friend is talking about, because we have got the developers that built these buildings to go on and fix them in a proportionate way and we do not have to use the core of money that we already have. Noble Lords can test the opinion of the House, but that is a practical way of dealing with the problems—focusing the current funds on those few buildings where that scenario applies.

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

Before the Minister sits down, I thank him very much for his response to my Amendment 22. Could he just clarify something, so that I am completely clear on it? Was he saying that the Government will exempt social housing from the levy and that an SI will be brought in? If I am correct in my understanding, I would be grateful for a meeting to discuss the detail of what he proposes will happen.

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman of Ullock, for the opportunity to clarify what I meant. In simple terms, the exemption applies to social housing. With regard to how that is implemented and the means by which we do that, I will be happy to meet the noble Baroness to set out formally how we intend to bring that forward. I have already made that comment in meetings before Report, so it has been made in public. I am happy to make that commitment on the Floor of the House and to work on how we implement that and set it out, either in writing or in a further meeting.

Amendment 21 agreed.

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Moved by

[Lord Greenhalgh]

23: Clause 57, page 80, line 43, at end insert—
““building industry scheme” means a scheme established under section 128 of the Building Safety Act 2022;”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment is consequential on the previous amendment to this Clause in the name of the Minister.

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Moved by

[Lord Greenhalgh]

24: Clause 60, page 83, line 31, leave out paragraph (e)
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment is consequential on the amendments in the name of the Minister leaving out Clauses 82 to 86 (which remove provision about building safety managers).

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[Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-Afl)]

I thought we were going to have a vote.

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

We surprised the noble Baroness.

[Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-Afl)]

I am not ready.

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[The Earl of Lytton (CB)]

I, too, commend the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, on this amendment. Given the circumstances of the Bill, the number of variations in it and the sheer number of moving parts involved, a review is essential for precisely the reasons she said, and I support the amendment.

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Fox of Buckley, and my noble friend Lady Neville-Rolfe for this insightful debate.

Amendment 26 from the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, would require a review of the financial impact of the new regime. I reassure the noble Baroness that a review is already required by Clause 152, which provides that:

“The Secretary of State must appoint an independent person to carry out a review of”


the system of regulation of building safety and standards and the system of regulation for construction products. Importantly, the reviewer is not limited and may choose to review connected matters, including the matters mentioned in the noble Baronesses’ amendments.

Similarly, Amendment 246A in the name my noble friend Lady Neville-Rolfe would require a review of the impact of the Act. I apologise for the mix-up that resulted in my addressing this amendment in an earlier group. I will repeat for the record that we believe that this further replicates Clause 152 in the Bill and therefore we believe this is unnecessary.

What I do say to my noble friend is that the Secretary of State has to appoint someone to carry out the review within five years, so that is a long-stop date. I am very happy to meet my noble friend to ensure that we get going with this review at the very earliest opportunity to make sure that that long-stop date is comfortably met. We also need to make sure that this review is substantive and learns the lessons of a new regime in the broadest possible sense and addresses the points raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Fox of Buckley, as well those raised by my noble friend Lady Neville-Rolfe, who has had tremendous Front-Bench experience as well as experience as a distinguished civil servant.

With those explanations, I kindly ask the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, to withdraw her amendment and my noble friend Lady Neville-Rolfe not to press her amendment.

[Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-Afl)]

I will withdraw but I will come back to the Minister. I think it is important to come back to the Minister and say if it is within five years, I would like it to be brought forward sooner. I do not know why he does not just accept the two years but let us have the meeting to discuss it. At this point, I will not press the amendment and beg leave to withdraw.

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Moved by

[Lord Greenhalgh]

27: Clause 79, page 94, line 34, leave out paragraph (a)
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment is consequential on the amendments in the name of the Minister leaving out Clauses 82 and 85.

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Moved by

[Lord Greenhalgh]

28: Clause 80, page 96, line 4, leave out paragraph (a)
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment is consequential on the amendments in the name of the Minister leaving out Clauses 82 and 85.

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Moved by

[Lord Greenhalgh]

29: Clause 81, page 96, line 23, leave out “, and any building safety manager,”
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment is consequential on the amendments in the name of the Minister leaving out Clauses 82 to 86 (which remove provision about building safety managers).

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Moved by

[Lord Greenhalgh]

30: Clause 82, leave out Clause 82
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment and the amendments leaving out Clauses 83 to 86 in the name of the Minister remove provision about building safety managers.

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Moved by

[Lord Greenhalgh]

31: Clause 83, leave out Clause 83
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment and the amendments leaving out Clauses 82 and 84 to 86 in the name of the Minister remove provision about building safety managers.

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Moved by

[Lord Greenhalgh]

32: Clause 84, leave out Clause 84
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment and the amendments leaving out Clauses 82 and 83 and 85 and 86 in the name of the Minister remove provision about building safety managers.

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Moved by

[Lord Greenhalgh]

33: Clause 85, leave out Clause 85
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment and the amendments leaving out Clauses 82 to 84 and 86 in the name of the Minister remove provision about building safety managers.

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Moved by

[Lord Greenhalgh]

34: Clause 86, leave out Clause 86
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment and the amendments leaving out Clauses 82 to 85 in the name of the Minister remove provision about building safety managers.

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Moved by

[Lord Greenhalgh]

37: Clause 95, page 105, line 16, leave out “intervals” and insert “times”
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment requires the strategy to be reviewed at times prescribed by regulations.

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

I am very pleased to move a group of amendments that are focused on ensuring that leaseholders are protected from costs related to historical building safety defects. The package of leaseholder protections eradicates the idea that leaseholders should be the first port of call to pay to fix historical building safety defects. In fact, in drafting these clauses we started with the presumption that leaseholders should not have to pay anything, a sentiment that I know is shared with noble Lords from all sides of this House.

It is only right that building owners and landlords share in the costs of fixing dangerous buildings and we have carefully engineered—

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

I was under the impression that this was grouped with a whole group of amendments that had been debated and therefore there was no need for a further debate. If I am wrong, of course I apologise.

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Duncan of Springbank) (Con)]

I will take the blame for that. I should have said moved formally and that would have encouraged the noble Lord, Lord Greenhalgh, to say “moved formally”. I will accept the admonition on that point. The noble Lord has saved the House some considerable time because I can see the page of that speech now fluttering in the wind.

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

Moved formally.

Amendment 37 agreed.

Moved by

[Lord Greenhalgh]

38: Clause 95, page 105, line 17, at end insert—
“(c) in prescribed circumstances, consult relevant persons and prescribed persons on the strategy and take any representations made on the consultation into account when next reviewing the strategy;(d) act in accordance with the strategy.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment requires the principal accountable person to consult on the residents’ engagement strategy, and to act in accordance with the strategy.

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Moved by

[Lord Greenhalgh]

41: Clause 95, page 105, line 26, leave out “an accountable person will consult relevant persons” and insert “relevant persons will be consulted”
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment is a drafting change.

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Moved by

[Lord Greenhalgh]

48: Schedule 7, page 200, line 7, leave out paragraph (b)
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment is consequential on the amendments in the name of the Minister leaving out Clauses 82 to 86 (which remove provision about building safety managers).

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Moved by

[Lord Greenhalgh]

71: Clause 112, page 115, line 19, leave out paragraph (a)
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment is consequential on the amendments in the name of the Minister leaving out Clauses 82 and 85.

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Moved by

[Lord Greenhalgh]

72: Clause 114, page 116, line 30, leave out “section 110” insert “paragraph 8(3) of Schedule 7”
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment is a drafting change.

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Moved by

[Lord Greenhalgh]

73: After Clause 114, insert the following new Clause—
“Building safety directors of resident management companies
(1) This section applies in relation to a resident management company that is an accountable person for a higher-risk building.(2) The articles of association of the resident management company have effect as if they included such provision as may be prescribed relating to—(a) eligibility for appointment as a director of the company, for a building safety purpose;(b) the appointment of a director for such a purpose;(c) the entitlement to remuneration of a director appointed for such a purpose;(d) the removal of a director so appointed.(3) Subsection (2) has effect—(a) whether or not the provision is adopted by the company;(b) whether the company was formed before or after the coming into force of this section;(c) notwithstanding anything in the company’s articles of association.(4) In this section—“building safety purpose” means the purpose of supporting the resident management company in complying with its duties under this Part or under regulations made under this Part;“resident management company” has the meaning given by regulations made by the Secretary of State.”Member’s explanatory statement
This new Clause makes provision about directors of a resident management company that is an accountable person.

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Moved by

[Lord Greenhalgh]

74: Clause 115, page 117, line 4, leave out “(6)” and insert “(5)”
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment is consequential on other amendments to this Clause in the name of the Minister.

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Moved by

[Lord Greenhalgh]

85: Clause 115, page 119, line 36, at end insert—
“30DA Liability for remuneration of building safety director of resident management company etc(1) This section applies to a lease of premises which consist of or include a dwelling in a higher-risk building if—(a) the landlord is an accountable person for the building,(b) the landlord is—(i) a resident management company within the meaning of section (Building safety directors of resident management companies) of the Building Safety Act 2022, or(ii) an RTM company within the meaning of Chapter 1 of Part 2 of the Commonhold and Leasehold Reform Act 2002 (right to manage), and(c) the tenant is liable to pay a service charge.(2) The lease has effect—(a) as if the matters for which the service charge is payable under the lease included remunerating any director of the landlord appointed for a building safety purpose (insofar as this would not otherwise be the case), and (b) where the lease contains different methods for apportioning different relevant costs (within the meaning of section 18), as if it provided that any costs for which the tenant is liable by virtue only of paragraph (a) to be apportioned in the same way as costs incurred in connection with insuring the building.(3) In this section—“building safety purpose” means the purpose of supporting the landlord in complying with its duties under Part 4 of the Building Safety Act 2022 or under regulations made under that Part;“landlord” includes any person who has a right under the lease to enforce payment of a service charge;“service charge” has the meaning given by section 18;“tenant” includes any person who has an obligation under the lease to pay a service charge.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment makes provision for the recovery from tenants of costs incurred by a residents’ company in remunerating a director of the company, appointed in connection with its building safety duties.

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Moved by

[Lord Greenhalgh]

87: Clause 115, page 119, line 37, leave out “section 30C or 30D” and insert “sections 30C to 30DA”
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment is consequential on the second amendment in the name of the Minister at page 119, line 36.

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Moved by

[Lord Greenhalgh]

100: Schedule 8, leave out Schedule 8
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment is consequential on the removal of the building safety charge as a separate charge.

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Moved by

[Lord Greenhalgh]

101: Clause 116, page 122, line 4, leave out “, an administration charge or a building safety charge” and insert “or an administration charge”
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment is consequential on amendments to Clause 115 removing the building safety charge as a separate charge.

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Moved by

[Lord Greenhalgh]

114: Clause 118, page 125, leave out line 32
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment is consequential on the amendment in the name of the Minister leaving out Clause 82.

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[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, I was a little slow in rising to introduce the government amendments. I was, perhaps, a little punch drunk after the length of the debate today.

It is only right, and I am sure we all agree, that building owners and landlords should share in the cost of fixing dangerous buildings. We have carefully engineered this Bill to ensure that those responsible, and otherwise those with the broadest shoulders, will be the first who are required to pay. Where there is no party that clearly should pay in full, and only in this scenario, our approach spreads the costs fairly and equitably and, above all, ensures that the most vulnerable leaseholders are protected. These measures are a robust and unprecedented legislative intervention, reversing the existing legal presumption that leaseholders must bear the costs of historical building safety defects.

The Government have listened to the comments raised by noble Lords, and we have tabled amendments which go even further in protecting leaseholders. Before I set out the detail of these further protections, I would like to be clear that the protections we are putting in place are extensive and, as noble Lords will be well aware, that these must remain in balance with the demands placed on landlords and building owners in ensuring that building safety defects are fixed and paid for where no wrongdoing on their part has taken place. There is an element of fairness here that we need to deliver. The Bill changes the private contract between the landlord and the leaseholder by stating that leaseholders will not pay any costs except in certain circumstances. Government can do this if it is in the general interest to do so, provided there is a fair balance between all the parties. Therefore, we need to make sure that the Bill is both proportionate and fair to all parties.

As I have said, leaseholders need to be protected, and we have brought in the most wide-ranging and expansive set of protections ever seen, allowing the courts to look through to associated companies to find both who is responsible and who has funds to remediate properties as there is no point in having money while properties remain unsafe. However, we are also aware that not all landlords were involved with the developer or have deep pockets, and we need to make sure that we consider the issue of building safety from all sides. We have therefore legislated on the side of the landlords by providing numerous robust routes for recovery of funds from those truly responsible: developers and the manufacturers of defective construction products.

To be clear, and bearing in mind my noble friends’ proposed amendments, let me put their minds at rest. The Bill makes it very clear that leaseholders will not pay anything in the majority of cases. These are where the landlord is the developer or is linked to the developer, where the landlord is wealthy and, finally, where the leaseholder’s property is valued at less than £325,000 inside London and £175,000 outside.

Where these absolute protections do not apply, the leaseholder’s contributions will be heavily capped. On leaseholder contribution caps, it is important to bear in mind that these caps are a maximum that leaseholders can be charged, not a target, and that, as above, they apply only where the landlord is not linked to the developer and cannot afford to pay in full. In addition, costs paid out in the past five years, including for interim costs such as waking watches, will count against the caps. Overall, we consider that in most cases leaseholders will not have to pay the full capped amount and many will pay nothing at all. Nevertheless, the Government agree it is critical that those leaseholders who are least likely to be able to afford to contribute towards historical remediation costs receive the greatest protection. That is why we have tabled amendments to provide that any qualifying lease with a value below £175,000, or £325,000 in Greater London, will be protected from all costs relating to non-cladding defects and interim measures. This is in addition to the protections for cladding remediation costs, which apply to all qualifying leases, and to all leases in buildings owned by or connected to developers.

Amendment 164 sets out that the value of a qualifying lease at the qualifying time is to be determined by the most recent sale price on the open market, prior to 14 February this year, uprated in accordance with the UK House Price Index published by the Office for National Statistics. Uprating values for this purpose will be set out in legislation.

Amendments 118 and 119 expand the definition of “enfranchised buildings” to ensure that all types of enfranchised buildings are covered.

We have listened very carefully to concerns about leaseholder affordability in the small number of cases where leaseholders are paying up to the caps. That is why we have tabled Amendment 166, to double the repayment period from five to 10 years. For leaseholders whose property is not below the threshold and whose building owner or landlord is not liable for the full remediation costs, Amendment 166 will mean that with regard to the capped costs the monthly repayments will be halved.

We have also listened carefully to those who were worried about buy-to-let investors who may be holding leasehold properties instead of a pension. As a result, we have amended Clause 121 to provide that people owning up to three UK properties qualify for the protections. As before, the principal home will always qualify, irrespective of how many additional properties are owned.

As well as going further to protect leaseholders, we have tabled a number of amendments which add key detail to the measures. We are clear that developers must fix the buildings they developed. That is why we have tabled Amendments 141 to 143 to Schedule 9, which clearly state that, where the landlord is or is linked to the developer, they will not be able to pass costs on to any leaseholder. This includes non-qualifying leaseholders such as commercial leaseholders and those with more than three UK properties. We have also tabled Amendment 145, which extends the definition of a developer to include persons who were in a joint venture with the developer. If you commissioned the work, you will also count as the developer.

We have also tabled Amendment 152, which will amend Schedule 9 to provide that where the landlord meets the contribution condition—defined as having a total net worth of more than £2 million per in-scope building as of 14 February 2022—they will not be able to pass any costs on to qualifying leaseholders. The calculation for net worth will be set out in regulations and will take into account parent and associated companies. This will ensure that those who have used complex corporate structures, such as special purpose vehicles, cannot evade liability where they can afford to meet the costs of remediation.

We are also amending Clauses 120 and 122 on the definitions for relevant buildings, landlords and works. These amendments will extend provisions to include work undertaken to remedy a defect and will clarify that buildings that are leaseholder-owned are out of scope because, in such buildings, the leaseholders are effectively the freeholders as well. With Amendment 121, we set out how the height of an in-scope building and its number of storeys will be calculated.

Amendments to Clauses 122 and 136 cover further definitions, including clarifying that associated partnerships are included, as the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, raised in Committee. Amendment 169 to Schedule 9 inserts a new definition of cladding remediation, which now means the removal or replacement of any part of a cladding system that forms the outer wall of an external wall system and is unsafe.

Amendments 170 and 171 provide that the landlord cannot pass on costs to a qualifying leaseholder relating to professional services, in addition to legal costs. Amendment 177 provides that certain leases are taken to be qualifying leases without the tenant providing a certificate, unless steps are taken. It also provides that landlords are taken to have met the contribution condition unless they provide a certificate proving otherwise. This means that the legal burden will be on the landlord to prove that they are entitled to pass on capped remediation costs.

The amendments also make minor technical and consequential amendments to clauses to ensure the provisions work as intended, remove extraneous powers and commence the provisions two months after Royal Assent.

It is right that leaseholders be protected from extortionate costs of remediating historical building safety defects, in a manner that balances the demands placed on landlords and building owners, where no wrongdoing on their part has taken place. I ask your Lordships to welcome and support this significant and important set of amendments, which go further to protect leaseholders and provide that fair balance.

[Baroness Pinnock (LD)]

My Lords, this is probably the most important group of amendments we are considering today, because it is absolutely at the heart of the building safety scandal that started nearly five years ago with the loss of 72 people in the Grenfell fire. I always think it is worth remembering that: 72 people died and the lives of many families were changed for ever, and that happened because of systemic and long-term failures in the construction industry.

It is also worth remembering that leaseholders since that time have found themselves under the enormous pressure of anxiety when they receive invoices, maybe for £100,000 or more. Some of them have not been able to cope with that level of anxiety, thinking that nothing would change, and have chosen bankruptcy as a consequence and therefore lost everything they had saved and worked for. For some whom I have heard about, sadly, this pressure may have contributed to something even worse: in the face of the bills and a long dark tunnel with no solution, they ended their lives. That is the backdrop. That is the tragic impact this has had on individuals across the country, and which has brought us to this place. This set of amendments is at the heart of those concerns.

I first raised my worries about leaseholders being liable for all the costs of cladding, removal and remediation of all the fire safety defects when the Fire Safety Bill was first debated in 2020. Unfortunately, I did not succeed in amending it at that stage, but what has happened since has been remarkable—the number of people on all sides of the House who have taken up the cudgels to argue the case, rightly, for justice for leaseholders. I give enormous credit to the cladding campaigners from all groups and different cities around the country who have got together and done the investigation, found the facts and put the case to the Government, who, to their credit, have listened and made the changes we have seen today. I think there are over 200 government amendments to the Bill today.

The question of justice for leaseholders is still at the heart of the Bill, and I contend that the Government still have not gone far enough in fulfilling what the Secretary of State and the Minister have said: that they should not pay a penny. They have done everything right and nothing wrong. They should not pay anything towards this remediation, because the flammable cladding, sometimes knowingly, was put on buildings, as was exposed in the Grenfell inquiry. Shoddy construction, sometimes deliberate, to cut corners and save costs, has also been exposed during the Grenfell inquiry.

I want to speak to Amendment 156 in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Stunell, but also to Amendment 155 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, and to Amendments 158 and 159 in the names of the noble Lords, Lord Young of Cookham and Lord Blencathra, and the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, to which I have added my name. They focus on trying to solve the problem of justice for leaseholders, who should not pay a penny.

Unfortunately, the Minister has said today that “the majority” will not pay. Well, if the majority will not pay, the minority will—and the minority should not, because none of this is of their making. My Amendment 156 seeks to establish that what the leaseholder should pay is a peppercorn—a grand, historical way of saying zero, zilch. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Young of Cookham, for his support for Amendment 155 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, which uses the word “zero”. I use “peppercorn”, but they get to the same place, and he has acknowledged the justice of this case.

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[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

My Lords, this has been an extremely important debate in which we have covered some of the critical issues still outstanding in the Bill. I thank the Minister for the introduction to the amendments. Many of them are good, but we believe there are still problems that need to be sorted out.

I will be brief. I thank the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, for his introduction to Amendment 115. If he decides to divide the House, he will have our support on that amendment.

I turn to my Amendment 155. It is really important that we take account of the principle that has been referred to by other noble Lords: there should be no cost to people who have done nothing wrong. It is not the fault of leaseholders that they have been left with these huge costs. We believe it is desperately unfair to force them to pay a penny, which is why my amendment has the word “zero” in it. As mentioned by the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, we must not forget the strain on the mental health of leaseholders. They need clear and proper support, and they are relying on your Lordships to do the right thing by them. To me, this is a moral question. Should leaseholders pay costs that, for many, will still be huge despite the caps proposed by the Government? They are blameless; they should pay nothing.

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Marks, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope of Craighead, for clearly laying out the legal position. It has been important for me to hear that from them, and the detail that they have provided, having had discussions with the Government on their concerns about the ECHR. I also thank the noble Lords, Lord Young of Cookham and Lord Blencathra, and the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, for their support.

I confirm that I intend to divide the House on Amendment 155. If it fails to pass, I will be happy to support the noble Lords, Lord Blencathra and Lord Young, on Amendment 158.

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, I spoke to the government amendments as I hoped it would assist the House to have the Government’s views. With the permission of the House, I will now speak again in reply to the points raised by noble Lords on the non-government amendments that they have tabled.

Amendments 155 to 160 and Amendments 162 to 163 deal with leaseholder contribution caps. I thank noble Lords for their contributions and constructive approach, but I am afraid that the Government will not be able to accept these amendments. It is important to bear in mind that leaseholder contributions apply only in certain circumstances, and even then, only when a series of other steps have been exhausted. The caps do not apply at all in relation to cladding defects, nor do they apply where the value of the flat is less than £175,000 outside Greater London and £325,000 inside.

The caps only apply where the building owner or landlord is not linked to the developer and cannot afford to pay in full, where the developer cannot be made to fix their own building, and where the building owners have exhausted all reasonable steps to recover costs from third parties. Leaseholder contributions will only apply where there is no clear developer or wealthy landlord to meet the costs in full, and the party responsible for defective work cannot be identified. The Government consider that this will occur only in a minority of circumstances.

Where there is no party that clearly should pay in full—and only then—our approach spreads the costs fairly and equitably across those with an interest in the building and ensures above all that the most vulnerable leaseholders are protected. The Government’s latest amendments go even further in protecting leaseholders. Where the freeholder or landlord is not at fault and cannot pay to meet the costs, we need to ensure a proportionate approach that takes into account the interests of all parties. That is why our approach spreads the costs equitably among all relevant parties with an interest in the building.

The amendments tabled by the noble Baronesses, Lady Hayman and Lady Pinnock, and—

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

Can my noble friend quantify how many people he expects will be paying? What is the maximum amount they will pay?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

I cannot quantify the exact amount people will pay, but it is fair to say that we have set out a fundamental system of protection that admittedly does not go as far as the zero or peppercorn proposed in opposition amendments, but it does go a considerable way to ensuring that leaseholders are the last in line to pay, as opposed to the first.

As I said, the amendments tabled by the noble Baronesses, Lady Hayman and Lady Pinnock, and the noble Lord, Lord Stunell, seek to reduce leaseholder contributions to zero or a peppercorn. Where there is no clear party that must pay, it would not achieve a fair balance between relevant parties to transfer the costs in full to the freeholder or landlord. I appreciate that that opinion seems to vary from that of noble Lord, Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames, but that is the government position.

Amendments tabled by my noble friends Lord Young and Lord Blencathra propose to reduce the leaseholder contribution caps, and another amendment proposes alternatively that the contribution is 1% of the lease value. The Government have already taken significant and far-reaching steps to protect leaseholders, protecting those in lower value properties and doubling the repayment period to 10 years. On that basis, I ask the noble Lords not to move their amendments.

Government Amendment 164 provides for the value of a lease to be determined without the need for a valuation. It allows for the value of the lease to be determined by uprating the most recent sale price prior to 14 February 2022. The uprating, which will be set out in regulations, will ensure all properties are compared on a level playing field. The uprating will be based on a metric called the house price index which tracks house prices. This will allow properties to be assigned a nominal present-day value.

Amendment 165, tabled by my noble friends Lord Young and Lord Blencathra, proposes that the value of the lease would be based solely on its most recent sale price. I am afraid the Government will not be able to accept this amendment as it would put leaseholders who have purchased their properties more recently at a significant disadvantage. The Government consider it important that properties are compared like for like, irrespective of when they were last sold. On that basis, I ask my noble friends not to move to their amendments.

I will turn now to Amendments 123 and 124, which deal with the definition of a qualifying lease. The Government have already tabled amendments which will see people with a total of up to three UK properties eligible for the protections. Amendment 123, tabled by my noble friends Lord Young and Lord Blencathra, proposes to increase this to a total of up to five UK properties. Amendment 124, tabled by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of St Albans, proposes to increase the total to six for individuals in receipt of a state pension. I am afraid that the Government will not be able to accept these amendments.

As I have previously discussed, it is important that the Government take a proportionate approach and ensure that our measures are fair to all parties. This includes considering where certain groups of leaseholders are likely, on average, to be able to afford to contribute to the costs of remediation. The Government need to focus their protections on those who need it most, primarily leaseholders living in their own homes and those who have moved out and are subletting. We also recognise concerns about people with small numbers of additional properties, and that is why we are ensuring those with up to three UK properties will be protected.

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Moved by

[Lord Greenhalgh]

120: Clause 120, page 128, line 16, leave out subsection (7)
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment removes the power to make supplementary provision, in consequence of the proposed new Clause after Clause 120 in the name of the Minister.

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Moved by

[Lord Greenhalgh]

121: After Clause 120, insert the following new Clause—
“Section 120: height of buildings and number of storeys
(1) This section applies for the purpose of section 120.(2) The height of a building is to be measured from ground level to the finished surface of the floor of the top storey of the building (ignoring any storey which is a roof-top machinery or plant area or consists exclusively of machinery or plant rooms).(3) When determining the number of storeys in a building—(a) any storey below ground level is to be disregarded;(b) any mezzanine floor is to be regarded as a storey if its internal floor area is at least half of the internal floor area of the largest storey in the building which is not below ground level.(4) In subsection (2) “ground level”, in relation to a building, means—(a) the level of the surface of the ground immediately adjacent to the building, or(b) where the level of the surface of the ground on which the building is situated is not uniform, the level of the lowest part of the surface of the ground immediately adjacent to it.(5) For the purposes of subsection (3) a storey is “below ground level” if any part of the finished surface of the ceiling of the storey is below the level of the surface of the ground immediately adjacent to that part of the building.”Member’s explanatory statement
This new Clause sets out how the height of a building, and the number of storeys, is to be calculated.

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Moved by

[Lord Greenhalgh]

122: Clause 121, page 128, line 31, leave out “only one dwelling” and insert “no more than two dwellings”
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment provides that a lease may be a qualifying lease if a relevant tenant owns no more than two dwellings (excluding their interest under the lease).

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Moved by

[Lord Greenhalgh]

125: Clause 121, page 129, line 1, after “dwelling” insert “in England, Wales or Northern Ireland”
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment ensures that subsection (4)(b) does not apply to Scotland (as the word “ownership” suffices for property in Scotland).

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Moved by

[Lord Greenhalgh]

127: Clause 122, page 129, line 10, leave out “means a defect as regards a building” and insert “, in relation to a building, means a defect as regards the building”
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment is a drafting change.

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Moved by

[Lord Greenhalgh]

133: Clause 123, page 129, line 30, leave out from “a” to end of line 32 and insert “partnership or body corporate is associated with another person in the circumstances mentioned in subsections (2) to (3).”
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment is a drafting change.

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Moved by

[Lord Greenhalgh]

139: Schedule 9, page 225, line 10, at end insert—
““joint venture” includes a partnership (as defined by section 123);”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment defines “joint venture” for the purposes of the Schedule.

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Moved by

[Lord Greenhalgh]

152: Schedule 9, page 226, line 20, at end insert—
“No service charge payable if landlord meets contribution condition
3A_(1) No service charge is payable under a qualifying lease in respect of a relevant measure relating to any relevant defect if the landlord under the lease at the qualifying time (“the relevant landlord”) met the contribution condition.(2) The contribution condition is that the landlord group’s net worth at the qualifying time was more than N x £2,000,000,where N is the number of relevant buildings within sub-paragraph (3).(3) A relevant building is within this sub-paragraph if a member of the landlord group was, at the qualifying time, a landlord under a lease of the relevant building or any part of it.(4) For the purposes of this paragraph—(a) “the landlord group” means the relevant landlord and any person associated with the relevant landlord;(b) the net worth of the landlord group at the qualifying time is to be determined in accordance with regulations made by the Secretary of State.(5) The Secretary of State may by regulations amend the amount for the time being specified in sub-paragraph (2).(6) This paragraph does not apply if, at the qualifying time, the relevant landlord was—(a) a private registered provider of social housing (as to which see section 80 of the Housing and Regeneration Act 2008),(b) a local authority (as defined by section 29), or(c) a prescribed person.” Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment provides that no service charge is payable under a qualifying lease in respect of a relevant measure relating to any relevant defect if the landlord met the condition mentioned in the paragraph (relating to net worth).

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Moved by

[Lord Greenhalgh]

154: Schedule 9, page 226, line 23, leave out from “if” to end of line 28 and insert “the value of the qualifying lease at the qualifying time was less than—
(a) £325,000, if the premises demised by the qualifying lease are in Greater London;(b) £175,000, in any other case.(2) For the purposes of this paragraph the value of a qualifying lease at the qualifying time is its value determined in accordance with paragraph 6 and regulations made under it.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment provides that no service charge is payable under a qualifying lease in respect of a relevant measure relating to any relevant defect if the value of the lease at the qualifying time is less than the amount mentioned in the amendment.

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Moved by

[Lord Greenhalgh]

161: Schedule 9, page 227, line 19, after “time” insert “—
(a) the value of the qualifying lease at that time is to be determined as if the tenant’s total share at that time was 100%;(b) ”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment provides that where the qualifying lease is a shared ownership lease the value of it at the qualifying time is to be determined as if the tenant's share at that time was 100%.

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Moved by

[Lord Greenhalgh]

164: Schedule 9, page 227, line 29, at end insert—
“(6A) The regulations may in particular provide that, except in prescribed cases, the value of a qualifying lease at the qualifying time is to be determined by—(a) ascertaining the consideration given on the latest disposal of the qualifying lease on the open market to have been made before that time, and(b) if that disposal occurred before 2022, uprating the consideration in accordance with the regulations.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment mentions the kind of provision that may be made by regulations under paragraph 6(6).

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Moved by

[Lord Greenhalgh]

166: Schedule 9, page 227, line 34, leave out sub-paragraph (1) and insert—
“(1) A relevant service charge which would otherwise be payable under a qualifying lease is payable only if (and so far as) the sum of—(a) the amount of the service charge, and(b) the total amount of relevant service charges which fell due in the period of 12 months ending with the day on which the service charge fell due,does not exceed one tenth of the permitted maximum.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment removes the existing power to make regulations, and provides that a service charge in respect of a relevant measure is payable only so far as the total of such service charges in any 12 month period does not exceed one tenth of the permitted maximum.

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Moved by

[Lord Greenhalgh]

181: Clause 125, page 131, line 4, after “Tribunal” insert “on the application of an interested person”
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment is a drafting change.

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Moved by

[Lord Greenhalgh]

186: Clause 126, page 131, line 24, after “corporate” insert “or partnership”
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment provides that an order may be made in respect of a partnership.

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Moved by

[Lord Greenhalgh]

194: Clause 127, page 132, line 18, leave out “the liquidator” and insert “a person acting as an insolvency practitioner in relation to the company”
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment provides that a person acting as an insolvency practitioner in relation to the company may apply for an order under this Clause.

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Moved by

[Lord Greenhalgh]

203: Clause 128, page 132, line 31, after “scheme” insert “to be maintained by the Secretary of State, or a person designated by the Secretary of State and acting on the Secretary of State’s behalf,”
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment is a drafting change.

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Moved by

[Lord Greenhalgh]

208: Clause 129, page 133, line 9, leave out subsection (2)
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment is a drafting change.

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Moved by

[Lord Greenhalgh]

222: Clause 130, page 134, line 17, leave out “the proposed beginning of”
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment has the effect of allowing regulations to require notifications to be given about development other than notifications relating only to the proposed beginning of development.

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Moved by

[Lord Greenhalgh]

224: Clause 131, page 134, line 37, at end insert—
“(1A) The descriptions of persons which may be prescribed include in particular persons who—(a) are eligible to be members of a scheme established under section 128, and(b) are not members of that scheme.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment provides that the descriptions of persons in relation to whom regulations may impose a building control prohibition under this Clause include, in particular, persons who are eligible to be members of a scheme established under Clause 128 but are not members of that scheme.

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Moved by

[Lord Greenhalgh]

227: Clause 132, page 136, line 11, leave out “relates to a building in England and”
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment has the effect of applying this clause to Wales.

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Moved by

[Lord Greenhalgh]

228: After Clause 133, insert the following new Clause—
“Order for information in connection with building liability order
(1) A person of a prescribed description may apply to the High Court for an information order.(2) An “information order” is an order requiring a specified body corporate to give, by a specified time, specified information or documents relating to persons who are or have at any time in a specified period been, associates of the body corporate.(3) An information order may be made only if it appears to the court—(a) that the body corporate is subject to a relevant liability (within the meaning of section 132), and(b) that it is appropriate to require the information or documents to be provided for the purpose of enabling the applicant (or the applicant and others) to make, or consider whether to make, an application for a building liability order.(4) In this section—“associate” has the meaning given by section 133; “building liability order”: see section 132;“prescribed” means prescribed by regulations made by the Secretary of State;“specified” means specified in the information order.”Member’s explanatory statement
This new Clause provides that a person prescribed by regulations may make an application to the High Court for an order requiring a body corporate to give information relating to persons who are associates of the body corporate and sets out when the High Court may make the order.

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Moved by

[Lord Greenhalgh]

230: Clause 136, page 142, line 3, leave out from “section” to end of line 5 and insert “applies in relation to a claim which, before this section came into force, was settled by agreement between the parties or finally determined by a court or arbitration (whether on the basis of limitation or otherwise).”
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment is a drafting change.

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Moved by

[Lord Greenhalgh]

238: Clause 139, page 144, line 5, after “converted” insert “, or to which any other works have been carried out,”
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment clarifies that a home created by, for example, extending an existing building will be a “new build home” for the purposes of the new homes ombudsman scheme.

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Moved by

[Lord Greenhalgh]

243: After Clause 144, insert the following new Clause—
“New build home warranties
(1) This section applies where a person (“the developer”) carries out a development in England that results in the creation of one or more dwellings (“new build homes”).(2) The developer must, at the time of or before granting or disposing of a relevant interest in a new build home—(a) provide to the purchaser a new build home warranty for the new build home, and(b) provide to a prescribed person a new build home warranty for any common parts.(3) A “new build home warranty” for a thing is an arrangement, satisfying any requirements under subsection (4), under which—(a) the developer agrees, in specified circumstances, to remedy any specified defect (or any defect) in the thing occurring in a specified period, and(b) a prescribed person obtains the benefit of a policy of insurance relating to specified defects (or any defects) in the thing.“Specified” here means specified in the arrangement.(4) The Secretary of State may by regulations impose requirements about new build home warranties, including in particular requirements as to—(a) the kinds of defect which the developer must agree to remedy;(b) the circumstances in which the developer must agree to remedy a defect (including the minimum duration of the period mentioned in subsection (3)(a));(c) the developer agreeing to meet prescribed costs incurred by a person occupying a new build home, where works to remedy a defect are carried out;(d) the policy of insurance (including risks that must be covered, the minimum amount of cover, the minimum duration of the period of cover, and the maximum amount of any excess);(e) the solvency of the insurer or underwriter;(f) the standard of service provided by or on behalf of the insurer in relation to the policy;(g) the ability of a person who has the benefit of the warranty to transfer that benefit to another person. (5) The regulations must provide that the period of cover under the policy of insurance must be at least 15 years beginning with the day on which the relevant interest is granted or disposed of.(6) In this section—“carries out a development”: the reference to a person carrying out a development is to undertaking or commissioning—(a) the construction of a building, or(b) the conversion of, or carrying out of any other works to, a building,with a view to granting, or disposing of, relevant interests in one or more dwellings created as a result of the construction, conversion or carrying out of works;“common parts”, in relation to a new build home, means any part of a building, where—(a) that part is provided for the use, benefit and enjoyment of the residents of the new build home and the residents of other dwellings (whether alone or with other persons), and(b) the right to use that part is conferred in connection with the grant or disposal of the relevant interest in the new build home;“defect”: any reference to a defect includes, in relation to land, contamination;“prescribed” means prescribed by regulations made by the Secretary of State;“purchaser” means the person to whom the relevant interest is granted or disposed of;“relevant interest” means a legal estate which is—(a) an estate in fee simple absolute in possession, or(b) a term of years absolute granted for a term of more than 21 years from the date of the grant.”Member’s explanatory statement
This new Clause imposes, on a developer of new build homes, a requirement to provide a “new build home warranty” complying with the requirements imposed under the clause.

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Moved by

[Lord Greenhalgh]

245: After Clause 145, insert the following new Clause—
“Liability relating to construction productsLiability relating to construction products: general definitions
In this section, section (Liability relating to construction products) and (Liability for past defaults relating to cladding products)—“the 1991 Regulations” means the Construction Products Regulations 1991 (S.I. 1991/1620);“the 2011 Regulation” means Regulation (EU) No. 305/2011 (regulation laying down harmonised conditions for the marketing of construction products);“the 2019 Regulations” means the Construction Products (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019 (S.I. 2019/465);“construction products regulations” means regulations under paragraph 1 of Schedule 12;“construction product requirement” means a requirement under—(a) construction products regulations,(b) the 2011 Regulation, or(c) the 2019 Regulations;“relevant building” means—(a) a building which consists of a dwelling, or(b) a building which contains two or more dwellings;“relevant interest”, in relation to a building in England and Wales, means—(a) in a case where the building consists of a dwelling, a legal or equitable interest in the building, and(b) in a case where the building contains one or more dwellings, a legal or equitable interest in—(i) the building, or(ii) any dwelling contained in the building;“relevant interest”, in relation to a building in Scotland, means—(a) in a case where the building consists of a dwelling, any right or interest (including a servitude or heritable security) in or over the building, and(b) in a case where the building contains one or more dwellings, any right or interest (including a servitude or heritable security) in or over—(i) the building, or(ii) any dwelling contained in the building;“requirement” includes a prohibition or restriction.”Member’s explanatory statement
This new Clause contains definitions relevant to the next two new Clauses tabled by the Minister.

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Moved by

[Lord Greenhalgh]

255: Schedule 12, page 242, line 22, at end insert—
“(2) Construction products regulations may under paragraph 20(1)(c) make consequential provision amending section (Liability relating to construction products), which may in particular include the omission or amendment of subsection (2)(b) and (c) of that section.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment is to enable construction product regulations to make consequential amendments to the Clause relating to liability in respect of construction products.

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Moved by

[Lord Greenhalgh]

263: Clause 151, page 156, line 15, at end insert—
“(4) Where—(a) a relevant company is an accountable person for a higher-risk building (within the meaning of Part 4), and (b) one or more (but not all) directors of the relevant company have been appointed for a building safety purpose and are entitled to remuneration from the company,this section, so far as relating to Part 4, does not apply in relation to a director who is not entitled to remuneration from the relevant company.(5) In subsection (4)—“building safety purpose” means the purpose of supporting the relevant company in complying with its duties under Part 4 or under regulations made under that Part;“relevant company” means—(a) a resident management company within the meaning of section (Building safety directors of resident management companies),(b) an RTM company within the meaning of Chapter 1 of Part 2 of the Commonhold and Leasehold Reform Act 2002 (right to manage), or(c) a company that is a commonhold association within the meaning of Part 1 of that Act (see section 34).”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment provides that, in relation to certain residents’ companies, this Clause - so far as relating to Part 4 - does not apply to unpaid directors if there are paid directors, appointed for a building safety purpose.

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Moved by

[Lord Greenhalgh]

265: Clause 154, page 157, line 28, at end insert—
“(da) sections (New build home warranties) and (New build home warranties: financial penalties) (new build home warranties);”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment provides for the new Clauses on new build home warranties to bind the Crown.

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Moved by

[Lord Greenhalgh]

266: Clause 158, page 159, line 25, leave out “120(2)(c),”
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment is consequential on the removal of the power to make regulations under Clause 120(2)(c).

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Moved by

[Lord Greenhalgh]

270: Clause 159, page 160, line 9, at end insert—
“(da) sections (Costs contribution orders: general definitions) to (Costs contribution orders: assessments) (costs contribution orders);”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment secures that the new Clauses relating to costs contribution orders extend to the whole of the United Kingdom.

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Moved by

[Lord Greenhalgh]

272: Clause 160, page 160, line 35, at end insert—
“(za) sections 119 to 127 and Schedule 9;”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment provides for the provisions on the remediation of certain defects to come into force two months after Royal Assent.

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Moved by

[Lord Greenhalgh]

274: Clause 1, page 1, line 17, leave out “as follows” and insert “including”
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment is a drafting change.

Building Safety Bill

Lord Greenhalgh Excerpts

Lords Hansard - Part 1 & Report stage
Tuesday 29th March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

My Lords, turning first to Amendment 1 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Foster of Bath, we agree that longer-term protections for residents’ safety are absolutely critical. His amendment also raises the importance of how we manage longer-term protections relating to fire safety.

Look at the government cuts to the fire service. Between 2010 and 2016, the Government cut central funding to fire and rescue services by 28% in real terms. In 2020, that was followed by a further cut of 15%. If the Government are really serious about tackling fire safety—there is a lot of good stuff in this Bill—they need to look at reversing those cuts to our fire safety organisations to make sure that they have the proper support they need to do the job that needs to be done.

Turning to Amendment 2 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Crisp, I assure him that, in principle, we support what he is trying to achieve. The issues that he raises are important. Health and well-being need to be considered in a lot of our legislation and we too often overlook it. The noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, introduced his Amendment 7 very ably, as he always does, and we certainly support in principle what he is trying to achieve with it. We have every sympathy with many of his practical suggestions for what could be done to improve things in this area.

Amendment 8, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Stunell, which he just clearly introduced, is particularly important given the areas that it includes and to which he referred. We had a long debate in Committee on the importance of the safety of staircases and making sure that the minimum standards are properly applied. We heard from many noble Lords about the RoSPA campaign and the number of people who die falling down staircases. This is an opportunity to do something about that.

We also had much debate in Committee on electrical certification and the importance of the safety of electricity systems. It is important that this also includes provision for disabilities. I am aware that the Government have introduced amendments on disabilities, but this is another opportunity to support that.

It is important that we have an amendment that looks at timely intervention—timely action—on safety issues. Grenfell was not the first time in recent years that a fire in a high-rise block of flats resulted in loss of life. In 2013, coroners wrote to Ministers about two separate fires: first, Lakanal House in Camberwell in 2009, in which six people died, and then Shirley Towers in Southampton in 2010, in which two firefighters died. The coroner’s letters included clear points of criticism and recommendations, which were not acted on. These also included retrofitting sprinklers into high-rise social housing blocks. The amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Stunell, includes the importance of sprinklers. The Lakanal House fire involved high-pressure laminate cladding, but that was not ordered to be removed from buildings until 2019—between 2009 and 2019 is 10 years.

It is important that when coroners, for example, or anyone who understands the safety of buildings writes to Ministers about genuine and serious concerns with actions that need to be taken, these are acted on in a timely way. That is why we strongly support Amendment 8, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Stunell and, if he decides to divide the House on it, we will support him.

[The Minister of State, Home Office and Department for Levelling Up, Housing & Communities (Lord Greenhalgh) (Con)]

My Lords, I thought that it would be helpful to reflect on why the Bill is before us today. It is entirely driven by the Grenfell fire tragedy, which took place on 14 June 2017 and resulted in the largest loss of life in a residential fire since the Second World War. It was also the deadliest structural fire in the United Kingdom since Piper Alpha in 1988. As the Minister who has taken on responsibility for both building safety and fire, as Building Safety Minister in the Department for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities and Fire Minister in the Home Office, I have reflected on the factors that drove that outcome of such a loss of life. One of those was the corrosive construction industry culture that uses the sort of Spanish practices mentioned by my noble friend Lord Blencathra. I have had similar experiences in construction—we all have, to a greater or lesser extent. Anyone who has undertaken any kind of construction project knows that the margins are squeezed and the people you value, the tradesmen who are on the job, are often simply not paid. It is shocking.

But there are also two other reasons why that tragedy happened. The first was a regulatory system that is essentially broken, which is why we have the Bill to establish the new building safety regulator, which will then take on responsibility for building regulations. Secondly, there was an inadequate response on the night by fire and rescue services. The Home Secretary will shortly launch, and I will support her, a White Paper on fundamental reform of fire and rescue services.

A considerable amount of money has been invested in fire and rescue services in the past three years while I have been Fire Minister, particularly on fire protection. There had been a loss of skills in those people who were very capable of assessing the built environment in fire and rescue services, so we introduced a £30 million uplift to try to repair that. It is not just about numbers and investment; it is about ensuring that we have the right skilled people in our fire and rescue services. We will continue with further investments on fire protection because we recognise that we have to prevent fires from happening in the first place, but we also have to ensure that we build in a way that is safe both from a fire perspective and in every other sense of the word.

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Moved by

[Lord Greenhalgh]

3: Clause 4, page 3, line 5, at end insert—
“(1A) The assistance and encouragement that must be provided under subsection (1) includes, in particular, assistance and encouragement with a view to facilitating securing the safety of disabled people in or about higher-risk buildings in relation to building safety risks as regards those buildings.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment provides that the regulator must in particular provide assistance and encouragement to relevant persons with a view to facilitating their securing the safety of disabled people in or about higher-risk buildings.

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, I open this group by introducing a set of amendments that respond to many of the issues raised during previous debates on this Bill. I hope that these changes will be welcomed.

I start with a change that I trust will be welcomed across the House: the removal of the building safety manager. Following feedback from leaseholders and persuasive interventions from noble Lords during Committee, we are scrapping the legal requirement to appoint a building safety manager. I thank noble Lords, including the noble Baronesses, Lady Fox of Buckley, Lady Pinnock and Lady Hayman of Ullock, the noble Lord, Lord Thurlow, and my noble friend Lady Neville-Rolfe for their thoughtful contributions on this important matter.

The Government are clear that accountable persons are responsible for ensuring that their buildings are safe and must not pass on unnecessary costs to leaseholders. We must restore common sense on building safety. There are more effective ways of discharging the responsibilities set out in the Bill than recruiting managers on high salaries for individual buildings.

Accountable persons should reflect on their current management arrangements. If they are confident that they deliver safe outcomes, there is no reason for change. We are committed to driving up standards of safety management and maintenance in high-rise buildings and the competence of those who deliver it. In the first instance, this should be done by supporting the development and upskilling of those already managing buildings. The Government will continue to work towards raising professionalism and standards among property agents and are considering the recommendations of the working group of the noble Lord, Lord Best, on regulating the market. We will continue to work with industry on improving best practice.

I turn now to our amendments to the building safety charge. I have listened to the feedback that we have received from stakeholders and in the other place and I thank my noble friend Lord Young of Cookham for raising this matter during Committee on the Bill. I recognise the concerns raised—that the building safety charge as previously envisaged could have created additional bureaucracy for landlords and leaseholders alike—and I have listened to those concerns.

The amendment simplifies how the costs are managed by removing the building safety charge as a separate charging mechanism. We will do this by changing the modifications that we are making to the Landlord and Tenant Act 1985. Building safety costs will now be accounted for as part of the service charge, as my noble friend recommended. The costs will be clearly identifiable and part of a system that is familiar to both landlords and leaseholders, thereby ensuring transparency of the costs. As the building safety charge will be incorporated into the service charge, the legislative protections against forfeiture will already be in place, so I am removing the amendments related to forfeiture that were laid in the other place.

I move on to how we can strengthen the voice of disabled residents. I am particularly grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, for tabling amendments in Committee to highlight this important matter. The Government and the Health and Safety Executive are committed to providing residents with diverse backgrounds and lived experiences—including, in particular, disabled residents—with a strong voice in the new regulatory system. We have therefore brought forward amendments to ensure that the building safety regulator will have to pay particular attention to the safety of disabled people in high-rise residential buildings and engage with them.

Amendment 3 ensures that the building safety regulator must particularly focus on the safety of disabled persons when undertaking its broad Clause 4 functions around safety in higher-risk buildings. Amendments 5 and 6 are consequential amendments. Amendment 9 provides that the building safety regulator must take all reasonable steps to ensure that its residents panel contains representation from individual disabled residents of high-rise residential buildings or groups that represent or support disabled residents. Groups may be represented corporately or by an individual member expected to be sponsored by the organisation. Amendment 12 requires the building safety regulator to report publicly about its engagement with disabled residents of high-rise residential buildings in its wider annual statement on resident engagement. Amendment 14 defines “disabled”, using the widely used definition from the Equality Act 2010.

I thank those noble Lords who made important points about resident engagement in Committee, particularly the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of St Albans. We have listened carefully to them and are making appropriate amendments to the Bill. The Bill puts residents at the heart of the building safety regime and gives them a clear voice in building safety matters. These amendments take this even further and oblige the principal accountable person to consult residents at prescribed times on the residents’ engagement strategy. This means that residents have the opportunity to comment on the form of the strategy and that those responsible for the safety of the building must listen to such comments.

To avoid any doubt, we have also made it clear that the principal accountable person will be obliged to act in accordance with the strategy. This means that residents and the building safety regulator will be able to hold principal accountable persons to account for their commitments made in the residents’ engagement strategy.

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Best, and my noble friend Lady Neville-Rolfe for raising the important matter of resident management companies assuming accountable person duties under the new regime. I have sought to address this issue through collaboration with the noble Lord and will accept his technical, non-government Amendment 86 to my Amendment 85. This will ensure that all resident management companies that are an accountable person have the option to appoint a professional director to support them with their Part 4 building safety duties.

These amendments give a power to the Secretary of State to set out in regulations the detail of provision that will be implied into articles of association of resident management companies to enable this. They imply terms into leases so that costs of the appointment can be recoverable as a service charge under the lease. The amendments apply retrospectively. Through secondary legislation, we will apply leaseholder consultation requirements to protect leaseholders from paying unnecessarily large sums as a result of appointing a professional director and ensure that, where professional directors are appointed, they can also be easily removed when required.

Amendment 263 provides that, where a paid professional director is appointed to support building safety, all unpaid directors of the resident management company will be relieved of their personal criminal liability under Part 4. Resident management companies will continue to be liable for any contraventions that may occur, maintaining the principles embodied throughout the Bill of clear responsibilities and accountability. All the elements of this amendment enable resident management companies to remain in control and responsible for their buildings, while enabling them to obtain the professional support that they may need to meet the duties of our new building safety regime.

I am grateful to noble Lords and the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee for their careful scrutiny of the delegated power in Clause 12. Noble Lords will be aware that we have responded to the committee’s report in detail. The provision in Clause 12 to repeal statutory committees was included in the Bill on the expert advice of the Health and Safety Executive that this power is needed to enable the committee structure to adapt and improve over time. I understand that the House has concerns that this power might be used by Ministers for other reasons.

I am grateful to the chair of the Levelling Up, Housing and Communities Committee in another place for suggesting a potential safeguard, which the Government propose to accept, through Amendments 10 and 11. These amendments ensure that the power to repeal provision for a statutory committee may be used only following a proposal by the building safety regulator. A statutory committee could not be repealed merely on the initiative of Ministers. Proposals for regulations would come to Ministers only after the regulator had consulted on them and regulations under this clause would continue to be subject to the affirmative procedure.

I hope that the House will welcome these changes and additional safeguards and that it will support these amendments.

[The Deputy Speaker (Baroness Pitkeathley) (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, is taking part remotely. I invite her to speak.

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[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

My Lords, I start by thanking the Minister for his introduction to a large number of government amendments. Like other noble Lords, I think it is really important that the Government listened to a lot of our debate in Committee and have brought forward these amendments, as well as others that we will discuss later, in response. It is good that we are making such excellent progress in some areas. I also thank the officials in the department, who have been incredibly supportive and helpful in spending time with me to help me understand the huge number of amendments we had to consider at quite short notice; I very much appreciate that work.

However, as the noble Lord, Lord Stunell, said, there are still a few areas where people feel there is a bit more to be done; they are addressed by the amendments we have been looking at. I start with the three amendments in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton. I was pleased to add my name to them, as did the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson. There was a lot of discussion in Committee about the need for disabled people to be more supported. I am pleased that the Government brought in amendments to strengthen the voice of disabled residents; that is extremely important.

Starting with Amendment 13, the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, mentioned that 41% of the disabled people at Grenfell Tower were killed in the disaster, which is an appalling figure. Anything that can be done to ensure that something like that does not happen again in a fire is terribly important.

The noble Baroness also talked about the Equality Act on her Amendment 20. It is really important that we consider how building safety can affect different groups listed with protected characteristics under that Act. This could also include pregnant people, who may need more support in getting out of a building. As a protected characteristic, it is important that that is taken into account, as someone who is very elderly and vulnerable should be.

I am pleased that the Minister has offered the noble Baroness a meeting on her Amendment 35, on personal emergency evacuation plans, because this is really important. I was quite concerned that none of the Grenfell Tower residents had been offered a personal emergency evacuation plan. Again, we need to ensure that in future these things are better managed, so I thank the noble Lord for his time on that.

I turn to the amendments in the name of the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of St Albans. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, for introducing these amendments and look forward to his first sermon in the not-too-distant future, we hope. Again, these two important amendments draw attention to areas that need to be looked at further. Government Amendments 37, 38 and 41 to 45 look specifically at tenants’ associations and principal accountable persons. This was also much discussed in Committee, where it needed further work. I would like to talk a bit about the resident tenants’ associations because, as I think the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, said, they need to be more widely promoted. This is a really important part of managing safety going forward.

Recognised tenants’ associations give owners of leasehold flats important rights. To become recognised, an association must have agreement from more than 50% of qualifying leaseholders. They then have the right to request information from the freeholder of their block, such as about the service charge account, which again was discussed a great deal in Committee. It is really important that resident tenants’ associations are properly recognised and more widely promoted. Again, when looking at consultation, they are a vital part of understanding better what residents’ needs and concerns are.

I turn briefly to the amendments in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Fox. Her Amendment 36 raises the important issue that leaseholders need value for money. On her other amendments regarding entering buildings, it is important that tenants are properly protected in this way. Only when something essential is happening safety-wise can flats be entered, and it is really important to say that. I also welcome the fact that the government amendments remove the building safety manager. As the noble Baroness said, it was important that the Government listened to her clearly laid out concerns in Committee.

Along with the noble Lord, Lord Young of Cookham, we very much welcome the amendments to the building safety charge, and the fact that the Government have accepted the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Best, which will make a very sensible and practical change going forward, as he said. I look forward to the Minister’s response.

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, I start with Amendments 13, 20 and 35, which relate to disability discrimination. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, for tabling these amendments, but I am afraid the Government will not be able to accept them. However, we were all struck by the statistic that more than 40% of the disabled residents of Grenfell Tower died in that tragedy, and the Government are committed to supporting the fire safety of the vulnerable. We are particularly aware of the need to improve the safety of those with mobility concerns. As the noble Baroness mentioned, I have committed to meet with her and I have met with the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, on a number of occasions.

As noble Lords are aware, we ran a consultation on personal emergency evacuation plans last year. This highlighted the substantial difficulties in mandating PEEPs in high-rise residential buildings, especially around practicality, proportionality and safety. I shared some of our thinking, admittedly quite late before this debate, with the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, because it is important to recognise that this thorny policy issue requires a considerable amount of work and collaboration with the fire and rescue service.

We will publish the Government’s response as soon as possible and explain these concerns in more detail. Our response will include a commitment to undertake a new consultation on this proposal for emergency evacuation and information-sharing—an EEIS. One of the things we learned about from the Grenfell Tower tragedy is the ability to locate people who are vulnerable and have mobility concerns, so that we can provide them with the support they need to safely evacuate those buildings where the “stay put” policy has been suspended. It is clear that information is critical. As are visits from the fire and rescue service to help advise them on how to make their properties that much safer. This is fundamental to ensure that we can provide the support that disabled residents require, so this EEIS proposal will give the fire and rescue service the information it needs on where people are located within higher-risk buildings that have a simultaneous evacuation strategy in place.

I completely agree—there is absolute unanimity on this—that accountable people must take all the appropriate steps to ensure that they comply with the law, not least in respect to protected characteristics. However, it is not clear what this amendment will achieve beyond the requirements that already appear in the Equality Act, which I will describe shortly.

Furthermore, an accountable person’s duty to manage building safety risks under the Bill extends to limiting their impact, should an incident involving the relevant building safety risks occur. This means accountable persons are already required by the Bill to consider how people might evacuate safely, if relevant to the building safety risk in question.

Amendment 13 would require the building safety regulator, in its statements of its engagement with residents, to outline the extent to which accountable persons have engaged with residents in relation to a duty to avoid disability discrimination by virtue of Amendment 35.

I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, that disabled residents must be listened to and have their needs met. That is why we have tabled Amendments 3, 9 and 12, which require the building safety regulator to pay particular attention to the safety of disabled people in high-rise residential buildings. This includes seeking out disabled representation on its residents’ panel and publicly reporting on its engagement with the disabled residents of high-rise residential buildings. In relation to principal accountable persons’ proper engagement with disabled residents, it is clear that their responsibility to measure and review the effectiveness of their residents’ engagement strategy will apply to all residents, including those with disabilities.

On Amendment 20, activities relating to the exercise of a public function in the provision or management of public housing in relation to building safety will, depending on their nature and context, already be covered by specific parts of the Equality Act 2010. They may be within Part 3, “Services and public functions”, or Part 4, “Premises”. In other words, protection from discrimination, harassment and victimisation already exists for the users and residents of premises, irrespective of whether they are in public or private sectors, and subject to certain exceptions. A reasonable adjustments duty also arises in this field of activity.

Which part of the 2010 Act provides this protection will be case specific. The preliminary text of Part 3 provides that, if an act of discrimination, harassment or victimisation is made unlawful by other parts of the Act, including Part 4, which relates to premises, those provisions rather than those covering services and public functions apply. The depth or reach of protection between these two parts is broadly equivalent. Therefore, our conclusion is that Amendment 20 is unnecessary.

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[Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-Afl)]

That amendment has been degrouped; we are coming to it later, where I have a similar amendment. The Minister might want to wait until then.

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

I am addressing my noble friend Lady Neville-Rolfe’s amendment; we will come specifically to group 6 from the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, in due course.

[Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-Afl)]

It is just that it has been degrouped to be with my amendment on the review. I was just explaining.

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[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

I am referring to Amendment 264A tabled by my noble friend Lady Neville-Rolfe, not the amendment of the noble Baroness. If it has been degrouped, I apologise; my speaking notes have not kept pace with the regroupings of particular amendments, which have been prolific and frequent until the very last minute. In any case, we are not accepting my noble friend’s amendment; we may turn to it once again, in which case I will not repeat myself.

I turn to Amendment 36 tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Fox of Buckley, which would require the accountable person to take all reasonable steps to achieve best financial value. We believe these protections are already in place. The Bill requires all accountable persons to take reasonable steps to manage building safety risks.

As part of this duty, accountable persons will be required to act in accordance with principles that will be prescribed in regulations. We have published these in draft to provide an indication of our intent. They include a requirement that, where reasonable to do so, accountable persons consider the impacts on residents within the higher-risk building and carry out engagement with them. There will be a full consultation on these regulations in due course.

Accountable persons need to be clear about the charges they pass on. This Government believe very strongly that service charges should show this. The law is already clear that service charges must be reasonable. Under the residents’ engagement strategy, residents will be able to participate in building safety decisions and can raise cost as an issue.

I turn to Amendments 46 and 47 on powers of entry, also tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Fox of Buckley. The Government recognise the importance of safeguarding against the misuse of requests for access to residents’ premises by accountable persons. I reassure her that those intentions have already been met in the Bill.

Amendment 46 aims explicitly to require that a request for access must be essential to achieve a building safety purpose. I assure the noble Baroness that Clause 101 already does this. To be an enforceable access request under the existing drafting, it must be made for the purpose of fulfilling the accountable person’s building safety duties or establishing whether a resident has breached their building safety duties. Therefore, by its nature, the request will be essential to achieving a building safety purpose.

It is not clear how Amendment 46 would change the current requirement that an access request must be necessary for one of the purposes I just mentioned. It is important that we do not set the bar so high as to make access requests difficult to implement where necessary; accountable persons have important building safety responsibilities and must have the appropriate tools available to ensure the safety of all residents.

Amendment 47 would require that, when making an order to allow access to a resident’s premises, the county court must be satisfied that access is essential to achieve the requested purpose. I reassure the noble Baroness that the county court is already required to be satisfied that the granting of an order must be necessary, under Clause 101(4), and will consider what is appropriate when considering a request. Therefore, the intended effect of the amendment has already been met.

I turn to Amendments 39 and 40 tabled by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of St Albans, but so ably delivered by my noble friend Lord Blencathra, on residents’ engagement. I thank my noble friend for addressing these amendments, but unfortunately the Government cannot accept them. Amendment 39 would oblige principal accountable persons to change the residents’ engagement strategy to reflect representations made by residents. The amendment is too restrictive, as there will be a number of factors that principal accountable persons must consider when updating the strategy.

The views of residents must also be weighed against other factors, such as the principal accountable person’s ability to deliver what residents want and the cost of doing so, which would of course be passed on to residents. It is right that we allow principal accountable persons the flexibility to determine how best to ensure the views of residents are represented and balanced alongside other building safety considerations.

In any case, government Amendment 38 already requires meaningful consultation with residents. If the principal accountable person fails to take residents’ representations into account when updating the strategy, residents will be able to raise a complaint, and escalate if needed to the building safety regulator.

Amendment 40 would oblige principal accountable persons to establish a tenants’ association where a majority of residents participating in the strategy consultation are in favour of one being established. The Government agree that tenants’ associations can be and are powerful tools for resident representation. However, they work best when established by residents rather than when mandated by landlords or managing agents. Residents already have the right to establish a tenants’ association under existing legislation and any proposed change to the arrangements for establishment of tenants’ associations is not a building safety matter.

I will touch finally on the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Best. I thank him for his constructive engagement with me over the last week, and confirm, as I said in my opening speech to this group, that I am happy to accept his amendment.

I think that we have covered most matters raised during the debate. I am really sorry to the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, that my speaking notes did not keep up with the groupings. She is the Oliver Twist of the House—I have noticed that she wins, and then asks for more. I thank all noble Lords who participated in the debate. I hope that, with the explanations and reassurances that I have given, they will be content not to press their amendments and to support the government amendments.

Amendment 3 agreed.

Moved by

[Lord Greenhalgh]

4: Clause 4, page 3, line 9, leave out “or building safety managers”
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment is consequential on the amendments in the name of the Minister leaving out Clauses 82 to 86 (which remove provision about building safety managers).

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Moved by

[Lord Greenhalgh]

9: Clause 11, page 5, line 18, at end insert—
“(2A) The regulator must take all reasonable steps to ensure that the committee includes—(a) one or more residents of a higher-risk building who are disabled,(b) a body that represents, supports or promotes the interests of any description of disabled people that includes residents of higher-risk buildings, or(c) a member of a body within paragraph (b).”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment provides that the regulator must take all reasonable steps to ensure that a residents’ panel includes one or more disabled residents or a body that represents, supports or promotes the interests of disabled residents of higher-risk buildings.

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Moved by

[Lord Greenhalgh]

10: Clause 12, page 6, line 15, at end insert—
“(1A) But regulations repealing section 9, 10 or 11 may be made only if the regulator has made a proposal to the Secretary of State for the making of such regulations (as to which see section 7(2)).”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment provides that the power to repeal a Clause about committees may be exercised only pursuant to a proposal by the regulator.

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Moved by

[Lord Greenhalgh]

12: Clause 20, page 10, line 36, at end insert—
“(1A) A statement under subsection (1) must, in particular, include information about the regulator’s engagement with residents of higher-risk buildings who are disabled.” Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment provides that a statement of the regulator’s engagement with residents etc must include information about the regulator’s engagement with disabled residents.

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Moved by

[Lord Greenhalgh]

14: Clause 29, page 17, line 6, at end insert—
““disabled”: a person is disabled if the person has a physical or mental impairment which has a substantial and long-term adverse effect on the person’s ability to carry out normal day-to-day activities;”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment defines “disabled” for the purposes of Part 2.

Code of Practice for Private Parking

Lord Greenhalgh Excerpts

Monday 28th March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Khan of Burnley (Lab)]

My Lords, the Private Parking Code of Practice has been introduced in an effort to regulate the industry and respond to the evolving threat of rogue operators. This is an objective that I am sure the whole House will support, and I am pleased that steps such as these are being introduced to this end. I am concerned that the Government are, unfortunately, not going far enough. The noble Lord, Lord Lucas, is right to raise his concerns in today’s debate.

The Minister will be aware that the Government have been obligated to introduce the code as a result of the Parking (Code of Practice) Act 2019. There is certainly some merit in the code that the Government have brought forward. I am particularly pleased that the code caps the amounts that should be charged for various parking charges. In practice, this will cut most fines at £50 and others at £100. However, it is unclear whether there are loopholes that could be exploited by this limit. There have been recent press reports of individuals receiving multiple separate fines in one day, resulting in a total fine of many thousands of pounds. Can the Minister assure the House that this would not be possible under the new code?

I am also pleased that a new process will be developed that will allow drivers to appeal fines. Although I appreciate that this service will be independent, what mechanisms will Parliament have to evaluate its operation? The code is right to bring forward the possibility of banning rogue companies that act outside the rules. Will the Minister commit to transparency over this? Will he arrange for the department to publicise those who have been banned?

On the issue of clear signage and markings, while this is also welcome, I would appreciate it if the Minister would explain what steps have been taken to ensure that they are accessible for people with disabilities.

Ministers have previously stated that the code was developed in close consultation with private parking experts including consumer and industry groups. Can the Minister elaborate on the findings of that consultation, and whether this will feed into further regulations?

The noble Lord, Lord Lucas, and the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, talked about the complexities of this area. I thought he talked well about indicators and, in particular, the volume of CCJs and statistical analysis of what has been happening. We welcome the opportunity to debate the code today. I hope the Minister will be able to provide assurances on the issues raised by this House. Regulations to confront rogue parking operators are long overdue, but the Government must go further to hold them to account.

[The Minister of State, Home Office and Department for Levelling Up, Housing & Communities (Lord Greenhalgh) (Con)]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Lucas for his interest in the Private Parking Code of Practice and for securing this important, valuable and informative debate. I hope noble Lords will agree that the code of practice is a significant step towards creating a fair system for motorists, ending the poor practices and behaviour that have been widespread within the private parking industry for far too long, as raised by the noble Lord, Lord Khan. It will bring greater consistency and improve standards across Britain, boosting our high streets and town centres by making it easier for people to park without receiving unwarranted charges.

Noble Lords may be aware that the code is part of a wider regulatory framework that we are also putting into place to ensure a fair system for motorists. This includes a certification scheme, to which parking trade associations must adhere if their members wish to request access to DVLA data. It also includes the establishment of a scrutiny and oversight board to monitor the new system and the creation of a single, independent appeals service for motorists to turn to if they are unhappy with the handling of an appeal by an operator.

The certification scheme, based on the code, will outline how the requirements of the code should be measured, tested and assessed. It will provide an opportunity to clarify anything that proves to be unclear or confusing in the code itself for implementation by parking operators. The Government intend to finalise the scheme this spring. We will also appoint the scrutiny and oversight board this spring to oversee the operation of the new system and monitor its effectiveness. The board will advise the Government on the operation of the code and certification scheme, providing recommendations on whether these need to be updated. We anticipate that the code will be reviewed every two years, once it comes into full force at the end of 2023, and the scheme as required.

The governance of the code will include representatives from the department, the DVLA, industry and consumers. We also expect the new single appeals service to be represented in this governance to improve information and data flows, ensuring that the sector is monitored efficiently. In addition, we are preparing a data strategy and a robust monitoring and evaluation framework for the enforcement of the code. The strategy will provide an outline of relevant data and identify opportunities to maximise the value of that data, reflecting the principles of the National Data Strategy.

My noble friend Lord Lucas has a keen interest in ensuring that we track the data appropriately. I assure him that we will cover the data around the number or volume of parking charges issued by operators. The frequency of that will be determined by the data strategy in due course, but I note my noble friend’s desire to see that on at least a monthly basis. In addition, we will be looking at the number of appeals accepted by operators and the number of appeals brought to the single appeals service. I note that my noble friend also wants us to track the number of county court judgments which come in where appeals are rejected and people are still not paying, which would obviously be much lower.

This will allow us to better understand and manage breaches of the code, identify any issues not adequately covered by it and spot patterns and trends across the sector. At the same time, it will provide motorists and the industry with an insight into how the system is working. The data will be collected by the trade associations and the single appeals service. It will be examined by the scrutiny and oversight board and used to make decisions on the operation of the system and the updates required to the code and the scheme. I hope noble Lords will agree that, altogether, these measures will ensure that the code is effectively implemented and monitored going forward, with the appropriate structures in place for important issues to be identified and resolved without impacting on the service received by motorists.

The noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, raised the issue of providing an impact assessment for the code, which I think is a question of timing. I hope I can reassure her that we do intend to undertake an impact assessment of the changes introduced by the code once the single appeals service has been designed, to ensure that we have all the necessary information to complete the assessments. It is about getting the impact assessment right at the right time. I hope that reassures the noble Baroness.

In response to the noble Lord, Lord Khan, who is quite an expert on private parking practice, I note that the code introduces a 10-minute grace period. It also introduces high requirements for signage. On loopholes—a very important point raised by noble Lord—we are working with the industry, including the two trade associations, to ensure that there are no loopholes. The noble Lord asked about a register for banning rogue operators. These will be monitored through the wider regulatory framework, including the scrutiny and oversight board already mentioned.

So, we know that the involvement of the private parking industry in this process is crucial to the success of the code. We look forward to working alongside the industry—as well as consumer and motorist organisations —as we move towards the full implementation of the code and its regulatory framework at the end of 2023. Finally, with the expertise and knowledge of my noble friend Lord Lucas, I am very keen that he does provide his input around getting the data framework and data frequency right. I thank him very much for securing this very important debate.

[Lord Lucas (Con)]

My Lords, I am very grateful indeed to the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, and to the noble Lord, Lord Khan of Burnley. I feel thoroughly supported around the House and, indeed, I feel supported by my noble friend the Minister in what he has said, for which I thank him very much. I would really like to take up his invitation to have a look at the data strategy and the other work surrounding that at an appropriate time of his choosing. I, therefore, take pleasure in seeking to withdraw my Motion.

Shared Prosperity Fund

Lord Greenhalgh Excerpts

Thursday 24th March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Wilcox of Newport]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what recent discussions they have had with the First Minister of Wales about the shared prosperity fund.

[The Minister of State, Home Office and Department for Levelling Up, Housing & Communities (Lord Greenhalgh) (Con)]

In the UK shared prosperity fund pre-launch guidance, the UK Government stated the ambition to work with the Welsh Government and we remain committed to this. The Secretary of State and First Minister have discussed the UK shared prosperity fund alongside our wider levelling-up agenda. We remain open to further engagement at ministerial and official level.

[Baroness Wilcox of Newport (Lab)]

There is a broken promise to replace EU funds for Wales and it is set to cost the country £1 billion over the next three years, so I ask the UK Government to co-operate fully with the Welsh Government to redress this huge deficit and treat this matter with urgency and the respect that it deserves from one Government to another. Could the Minister bring regular updates to the House on the content and progress of such discussions of the shared prosperity fund and, indeed, any related matters of funding for Wales?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, there is a very clear commitment to match EU funds in Wales through Wales’s share of the £2.6 billion UK shared prosperity fund. We recognise the importance of very close collaboration with all our devolved Administrations, including Wales, and every aspect of my department is working closely with its Welsh counterpart. I even had a letter two days ago from the Climate Change Minister about building safety. We can learn a lot from each other and can continue, at an official and a ministerial level, to work on the guidance on the UK shared prosperity fund.

[Lord Rogan (UUP)]

My Lords, programmes backed by the European Social Fund have supported more than 77,000 people in Northern Ireland to overcome obstacles to social inclusion and unemployment. With ESF funding due to end this month and with no funds from the Executive at Stormont, what additional support do the UK Government intend to offer through the shared prosperity fund to ensure that the wonderful work done by local specialists and voluntary organisations with those programmes can continue in Northern Ireland?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

Timing is everything and of course we are just at the point of announcing how we intend to approach the disbursement of funds through the UK shared prosperity fund. At that point, we will be able to give a very full answer to the noble Lord’s question.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, on that very point, I welcome the principle of distributing funds to counties and regions rather than by some spurious competitive bids, but what will be the parameters for deciding on allocations? Will there be a strategic approach? What will be the role and responsibility of the counties and what will be the mechanism for delivering regional co-operation? What will be the function of the Welsh Government in making this happen?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, yet again, it is about looking at the detail that will be contained in the pre-launch guidance publication—which is, as I say, very imminent.

[Lord Harlech (Con)]

My Lords, of course the UK shared prosperity fund is very important, but can my noble friend tell the House what else Her Majesty’s Government are doing to level up Wales?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, I am always reminded that on all sides of the House we have tremendous support for Wales, including on the Front Bench. My noble friend is right to probe, and in response I can say there is more than £18 billion through the Welsh block grant, £167 million in local growth funding, a share of the £2.6 billion shared prosperity fund, £900 million for Welsh farmers and a £130 million British business bank fund to support Wales’s small businesses. That is considerable investment to ensure that Wales prospers.

[Baroness Humphreys (LD)]

My Lords, we have gone from “not a penny less” to analysis showing that, by 2024, the Welsh budget will be £1 billion worse off, as the noble Baroness has already said. With very little clarity at the moment on plans going forward, is it not now time to respect devolution, restore the missing £1 billion to the Welsh budget and put Welsh decision-making on building stronger local economies back where it belongs, in the hands of Welsh Ministers?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

We are getting some mixed messages from the House. On one hand we have that desire to see that we empower regions and functional economic areas through councils, but we do recognise that it is important to have proper engagement and collaboration with the Welsh Government. Indeed, at official level and also through the Welsh Local Government Association, that continues to happen, as it does at the level of the Secretary of State, who had a meeting, in the levelling up and housing committee, with the Welsh Local Government Association and local authority leaders. I believe that Minister O’Brien also met ministerial counterparts yesterday. So, yes, we must continue to build on collaboration, and I just caution against the idea that we should model into the future and say that there is a gap. We want to make sure that we repair the public finances, post pandemic, so that every part of this great country gets the investment it needs to prosper.

[Lord Hain (Lab)]

My Lords, although I suppose I could thank the Minister for his warm words about Wales, the truth is, as my noble friend Lady Wilcox pointed out, that Wales is being consistently short-changed post Brexit, and we are seeing power grabs as well from Westminster, such as in the Subsidy Control Bill, which has been described as having a “pernicious effect on devolution” by the Senedd committee responsible. Surely the Government should start talking directly and understanding that devolution is going to work only if Whitehall respects it, both in funding terms and in terms of powers—and it is not doing so at the moment.

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

That is essentially more of a comment than a question, but there is a real respect for both the Welsh Government and local leaders in Wales. We continue to work very productively, certainly at ministerial level and also through officials. We want to see a strong Wales—I would like to see a stronger Welsh rugby team, frankly, after the result against Italy.

[Lord Roberts of Llandudno (LD)]

My Lords, bids for the shared prosperity fund were supposed to be in by July last year and the money was supposed to have been spent by the end of next week, 31 March. How is that progressing? Also, projects were being developed in the hope that funding would be at a similar level to the European fund, including the port of Holyhead. How is the European funding of projects in Holyhead progressing?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, I will write to the noble Lord on that specific point with a very fulsome answer and I will lay a copy in the Library. I think it is fair to say that this is a problem not just for Wales: we need to ensure that we do not have these cliff edges—I used to call it “March madness”—where we rush to spend money. Certainly, we should be looking at ways of accruing expenditure to spend it a sensible way to get real value for money for the taxpayer. So, it is a point well made.

[Lord Anderson of Swansea (Lab)]

My Lords, is the Minister aware that our local authorities complain not only about the current confusion but about the limited timespan of the new scheme, which makes long-term planning more difficult?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

We recognise that, frankly, we have too many funds and that we have to find ways of bringing those funds together to ensure that processes are around delivery and not around grant farming. That is a direction of travel that my department recognises as something we need to improve on in the forthcoming years—but it takes time.

[Lord Sikka (Lab)]

My Lords, I am glad to see that one of the objectives of the shared prosperity fund is to “boost pay”. The Minister will know that the workers’ share of GDP in the UK, in the form of wages and salaries, just before the pandemic was 48.7%, compared with 65.1% in 1976. Can he provide four or five examples of how the Government will increase the workers’ share of GDP in order to meet the shared fund objectives?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, I like to be tested at the Dispatch Box, but I have been given a blizzard of statistics and an impossible request to give five examples. No, I cannot do that, but I am not sure it is particularly helpful. We recognise the need to see real economic development and a strong Welsh economy because, ultimately, that is what is going to make a difference to people’s lives.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

How will rural areas such as North Yorkshire, the new unitary authority, benefit from the shared prosperity fund?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

I am sorry, I did not hear the question. But Yorkshire is a very important place as well.

[Baroness Jolly (LD)]

My Lords, Cornwall was in receipt of considerable EU funding. Can the noble Lord confirm that Cornwall is still in the mix for shared prosperity funding?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

Cornwall is incredibly important—with its own language, even—and we want to make sure that we level up within regions and all parts of the country. We recognise the need to deal with some of the real rural deprivation that exists in Cornwall.

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

Can the Minister confirm that Staffordshire and Shropshire are also important?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

Staffordshire and Shropshire are in the plan as well—I can confirm that to noble Lords.

Combined Authorities (Borrowing) Regulations 2022

Lord Greenhalgh Excerpts

Monday 21st March 2022 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Greenhalgh]

That that the draft Regulations laid before the House on 31 January be approved.

Relevant document: 30th Report from the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee. Considered in Grand Committee on 16 March.

Motion agreed.

European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 (Repeal of EU Restrictions in Devolution Legislation, etc.) Regulations 2022

Lord Greenhalgh Excerpts

Monday 21st March 2022 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Greenhalgh]

That the draft Regulations laid before the House on 25 January be approved.

Relevant document: 30th Report from the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee. Considered in Grand Committee on 16 March.

Motion agreed.

Energy Performance of Buildings (England and Wales) (Amendment) Regulations 2022

Lord Greenhalgh Excerpts

Monday 21st March 2022 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Greenhalgh]

That the draft Regulations laid before the House on 31 January be approved. Considered in Grand Committee on 16 March.

Motion agreed.

European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 (Repeal of EU Restrictions in Devolution Acts etc.) Regulations 2022

Lord Greenhalgh Excerpts

Wednesday 16th March 2022 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Lord Greenhalgh]

That the Grand Committee do consider the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 (Repeal of EU Restrictions in Devolution Acts etc.) Regulations 2022.

[The Minister of State, Home Office and Department for Levelling Up, Housing & Communities (Lord Greenhalgh) (Con)]

My Lords, these regulations were laid in draft before the House on 25 January. Their purpose is to repeal the powers introduced by Section 12 of the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018, which provided a regulation-making power to temporarily freeze devolved legislative competence while UK common frameworks were finalised. If approved, the regulations will also remove limitations on devolved legislative and executive competence introduced into the devolution settlements and any cross references to those powers.

The European Union (Withdrawal) Act has an inbuilt duty on Ministers to consider the repeal of Section 12 powers. Those powers are time-limited. In any case, the powers have never been used and, since 31 January this year, can no longer be used. There can now be little reason to retain them. Although the powers have never needed to be used, they provided a useful contingency while the Government and the devolved Governments worked jointly to develop UK common frameworks. The Government and the devolved Governments have successfully worked together on a collaborative basis to develop common frameworks, and the powers have not needed to be used. The frameworks that have jointly been developed now underpin a common approach across the United Kingdom to policy areas previously governed by EU law that are within devolved competence.

If approved and made, the regulations will remove the now redundant powers from the statute book. They will also remove the ongoing statutory obligation on the Government to report to Parliament on the use of these powers. The Government have produced 14 reports since the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 was enacted, with the most recent report published last week.

In addition to keeping the statute book in good order, the regulations mark the progress that this Government have made jointly with the devolved Governments to develop common frameworks. These frameworks are in operation to create a consistent approach across the United Kingdom in a wide range of policy areas. I commend the regulations to the Grand Committee.

[Baroness Humphreys (LD)]

I thank the Minister for the clarity of his presentation. As he has already outlined, this SI removes the powers introduced into the devolution settlements by Section 12 of the European Union (Withdrawal) Act. These were temporary powers to prevent divergence from existing structures established in the UK by EU law while the UK common frameworks were developed. The Explanatory Memorandum points out that these regulation-making powers are no longer needed, as the Minister has already explained, because of the progress made towards developing the frameworks. It also points out that the power to make such regulations cannot be exercised after 10.59 pm on 31 January 2022. As we are now six weeks past that date, I presume that the powers no longer exist and that this instrument is therefore needed to remove these redundant provisions from the statute book.

The Government make much of the collaborative approach taken towards working with the devolved Administrations, and point out that the powers introduced by Section 12 of the European Union (Withdrawal) Act have never needed to be used because of that. My concern is that, by removing the powers from the devolution settlements, we are also removing an ongoing statutory obligation to report to Parliament on the use of the powers and, crucially, report on the implementation of the UK common frameworks.

I am a great admirer of the Common Frameworks Scrutiny Committee and the expertise of its chair, the noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, and of its members. I hear of its activities through members of the committee. In its report, Common Frameworks: Building a Cooperative Union, the Committee highlighted three problems with the common frameworks. The first was that the frameworks have been developed behind closed doors, with minimal stakeholder engagement or parliamentary scrutiny. The second was the need to clarify the relationship with the Northern Ireland protocol, and the third was the lack of information given to Parliament to enable it to scrutinise the operation of these important governmental agreements, which, it says, remain largely invisible. While doing excellent work, the committee appears almost to be working in limbo, so what progress has been made on the three problems that it identifies? What steps have been taken to present information to Parliament on a regular basis so that Members can better understand and scrutinise the intergovernmental relationship?

As usual, I am particularly interested in the quality of the collaboration between the UK Government and the devolved Governments. In various Bills that have come before this House recently, the UK Government have talked about consultation or collaboration with the devolved Governments, but they in turn have complained about a lack of meaningful consultation, having sight of a Bill only the day before it is presented to the Commons, and being presented with information without being allowed a sensible response time—so much so that the Senedd’s Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee, in its legislative consent memorandum to the Elections Bill, made a recommendation that the Welsh Government should include a commentary on the extent of co-operation and engagement with the UK Government in all legislative consent memoranda that are required by virtue of Standing Order 29. This enables the Senedd to scrutinise the level of engagement between the Governments.

I hope that the noble Lord can assure me today that the UK Government have a plan to allow scrutiny of all aspects of the common frameworks process by Members of this House.

[Baroness Wilcox of Newport (Lab)]

My Lords, as we have heard, this instrument will remove the Government’s powers to temporarily freeze devolved legislative competence, which were previously introduced while the UK common frameworks were finalised. The intention was that they would be used only in exceptional circumstances. I am pleased that the powers were never used. Since they were always intended to be time limited, they are now being removed.

The Minister said during the debate in the other place that the removal of these powers is

“a reflection of the huge progress that the Government have made with the devolved Governments in developing new common frameworks.”

I pay tribute to my noble friend Lady Andrews for her chairing of that committee, at which I spoke a few months ago. In the Commons, Labour’s Front Bench welcomed the removal of these powers, saying that

“these were seen as valuable safeguards at the time to ensure orderly transition, but the moment for that has certainly passed.”—[Official Report, Commons, Sixth Delegated Legislation Committee, 3/3/22; col. 4.]

Like other noble Lords today, I continue to urge the UK Government to work in partnership with the devolved Governments, which of course have their own elected mandates. It is positive to build and strengthen the union, not undermine it.

Picking up on the point from the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, I was at a meeting earlier today with the Minister for Local Government in the Welsh Government, Rebecca. She noted that the Welsh Government had not heard of the £150 council tax rebate announced by the UK Government; they were getting questions about it but had not been informed. Those niceties would take only a phone call—from Minister to Minister would be good, but so would senior official to senior official. In this day and age of communication, that should not be a problem.

I will ask two questions in conclusion. Can the Minister foresee any future situations in which these powers would be reintroduced? Does he believe that any consequential legislation is needed to fully repeal these powers? Diolch yn fawr.

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, I thank noble Lords for their attention to these regulations. I think there is great unanimity that we are where we are and that we need to tidy these matters up in the way that noble Lords have outlined. It is quite clear that there is cross-party support for the removal of these regulations.

We have had a short but very helpful debate, with rousing voices from Wales. Under normal circumstances we would probably have heard from my noble friend Lord Caine, who has great experience on Northern Ireland matters; I am the understudy and will try to do my best in that regard. I have certainly learned a great deal from my discussions. In fact, I had tea with the noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, to learn more about common frameworks, which I had not really heard of until I became a Minister at the department that has now taken over this responsibility, with the arrival of my right honourable friend Michael Gove as Secretary of State.

I will do my best to answer the questions—they were asked because noble Lords want some answers. To answer the noble Baroness, Lady Wilcox, there are no plans for these powers to be replaced. They are not being replaced; that is a tick.

In response to the noble Baroness, Lady Humphreys, on common frameworks and our approach to them, we are committed to transparency in the frameworks programme and will continue to work with Parliament to inform it of significant developments beyond the point at which Section 12 powers are repealed. The devolved legislatures have also shown an interest in being kept up to date with the common framework developments, and we are working closely together with the devolved Governments on the form that future reporting on frameworks might take—so there is that commitment, and we need to make sure that we deliver against it. I am sure that noble Lords will hold this Government’s feet to the fire in that regard.

The noble Lord, Lord Wigley, wanted to know about any difference in approach between Wales, Northern Ireland and Scotland. There is essentially a uniform approach across all devolved Administrations, but I was struck by something that the noble Baroness, Lady Wilcox, said. We need to get devolution right, because we all have a shared interest in a strong union through effective devolution. I know that, working together, we can always have that in mind in ensuring that for the devolved Governments or Administrations—to talk about Northern Ireland in particular—this works alongside the strengthening of our overall union as four nations and one United Kingdom.

I have done my best to address the points raised, and I am happy to talk about them, if I have not done so, outside this forum. For the reasons set out, I commend the regulations to the Grand Committee.

Motion agreed.

Energy Performance of Buildings (England and Wales) (Amendment) Regulations 2022

Lord Greenhalgh Excerpts

Wednesday 16th March 2022 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Lord Greenhalgh]

That the Grand Committee do consider the Energy Performance of Buildings (England and Wales) (Amendment) Regulations 2022.

[The Minister of State, Home Office and Department for Levelling Up, Housing & Communities (Lord Greenhalgh) (Con)]

My Lords, I beg to move the regulations. This statutory instrument was laid before the House on Monday 31 January 2022 under paragraph 12(1) of Schedule 7 to the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018. It was debated and moved in the Commons Second Delegated Legislation Committee on Tuesday 8 March. Mirroring legislation has been prepared for data registered against properties in Northern Ireland and was considered by the Assembly, also on 8 March. Scotland operates its own energy performance of buildings register and is not covered by this instrument.

This is probably one of the most straightforward statutory instruments that noble Lords will be asked to consider this year. It is almost exactly 12 months ago that I introduced and we last debated a similar measure, and last year the Committee dubbed that SI

“as simple as they come”.—[Official Report, 18/3/21; col. GC 9.]

The instrument relates to the statutory fees that are charged when data is registered for energy performance certificates, display energy certificates and air conditioning inspection reports for properties in England and Wales. Fees are applied to two classes of data registration covering domestic and non-domestic properties. This instrument proposes to reduce fees from £1.64 to £1.50 when data is lodged for domestic premises and from £1.89 to £1.70 for non-domestic premises.

Fees charged for data registrations in England and Wales were last adjusted nearly one year ago. A significant reduction in fees was possible at that time because government had invested in a new, cloud-based digital platform and had moved away from the fixed hardware model, run on concession contracts, that had been in place since 2008. In the last 12 months, contractual costs for building the service have fallen out of the model, which means that we have the opportunity to extend last year’s reductions further.

The new EPB register became operational in September 2020 and has been managed in-house since then. Significantly, it passed the digital service assessment in December 2021 and is the first citizen-facing digital service in my department to be hosted on the GOV.UK platform. It is also one of very few government digital services to publish performance statistics. The register now carries approximately 28 million energy certificates across all types, which includes more than 2 million data lodgements since September 2020, which we are receiving at a rate of around 155,000 each month. Importantly, by managing this cloud-based service in-house, we have delivered efficiencies and reduced the overall burden on public resources.

This instrument builds on the fee reductions we introduced last year. New fee rates set out in this regulation will allow costs of operating the Energy Performance of Buildings Register service to continue to be met. We aim for the register service to be cost neutral, without profiteering, but we do not expect taxpayers to subsidise a loss. Costs of the service, and the fees we propose, have been calculated in line with government policy and tested with stakeholders in the property energy profession.

Officials in my department have engaged with officials from the Treasury, the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy, the Northern Ireland Executive and the Welsh Government, and all have agreed that, given uncertainty in the property market, recent movements in interest rates and higher inflation, the modest reduction proposed today represents the most practical way to amend fees and ensure that the register is run on as close to a cost-neutral basis as possible.

The small differentiation between fees for domestic and non-domestic lodgements reflects technical differences between the classes of data, but it is now significantly smaller than historically.

The Committee will recall that the United Kingdom aims to bring greenhouse gas emissions to net zero by 2050. Heating and powering buildings currently accounts for 40% of the UK’s total energy usage. We must therefore ensure that buildings are constructed to high standards of energy efficiency.

In December last year, we implemented an uplift to Part L of the building regulations to improve conservation of fuel and power. When it comes into force this summer, new homes and new non-domestic buildings will be expected to deliver 30% and 27% fewer carbon emissions respectively. We are still on track to develop the full technical specification for the future homes strategy and the future building strategy, which we will consult on in 2023.

The Energy Performance of Buildings Register is a key tool in supporting our aspirations for improved energy efficiency. It holds valuable information about the energy performance of buildings. We want homeowners, commercial building owners and occupiers to improve the energy efficiency of their buildings.

Energy certificates improve market information, so that consumers can make informed choices. An energy performance certificate is needed whenever a property is built, sold or let. At a glance, a consumer searching for a new home or for commercial premises can determine how efficient a property might be, while an owner can consider recommendations for how they might improve the energy efficiency of their property.

To conclude, these regulations serve a very specific purpose: to reduce the statutory fees charged when data is registered for domestic and non-domestic energy performance certificates, display energy certificates and air conditioning inspection reports. Over the two classes of fee, reducing domestic data registration fees from £1.64 to £1.50, and non-domestic data registration fees from £1.89 to £1.70, extends the savings that we introduced last year.

Colleagues in Northern Ireland are introducing their own mirroring legislation to ensure coherence between different parts of the United Kingdom that use the same register. This will ensure that fees charged for Northern Ireland data lodgements are in line with those for England and Wales.

I hope colleagues will join me in supporting the draft regulations. I commend them to the Committee.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Russell of Liverpool) (CB)]

I warn noble Lords that there is likely to be a series of Divisions in the Chamber quite soon, so prepare to be interrupted.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, I thank noble Lords for a short, sharp and focused debate. It is appreciated. The fees have changed again a year later because there is essentially a dividend around an IT project, as the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, said; we do not want to profiteer or make a profit, but the cost of running the service has gone down. That comes in the form of lower prices for consumers and commercial users. I think I mentioned in my speech why there is a slight difference between non-domestic and domestic rates, as noble Lords will see in Hansard.

In response to the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, I understand that there is an energy company obligation between 2022 and 2026, estimated at £1 billion per year, to enable poorer, more vulnerable households to get more energy efficient. That is a BEIS policy, and I am not an expert on it.

My property interests are declared in the register, as I am sure the noble Lord’s are. It is a difficulty that, the older the property—I own a Queen Anne cottage—the harder it is to hit the net-zero target; there is a real issue around older properties, even if there is real resolve from the homeowner to be carbon neutral over time. That is a point well made. Brains across government are thinking across different departments about how we embrace that challenge. One way is to set standards, and the future homes standard is critical to do that for new build, which is again only a certain proportion of the existing stock. The question then is how we retrofit and deal with the stock we have in this country.

However, I think we are going beyond EPC price ratings, which are essentially good news for the consumer and people who pay these bills. I take the points from noble Lords that it is good to see an IT project working well, being managed in-house and done efficiently. I commend these regulations to the Committee.

Motion agreed.

Building Safety Bill

Lord Greenhalgh Excerpts

Wednesday 16th March 2022 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Greenhalgh]

That the amendments for the Report stage be marshalled and considered in the following order:

Clause 2, Schedule 1, Clauses 3 to 21, Schedule 2, Clauses 22 to 26, Schedule 3, Clauses 27 to 42, Schedule 4, Clauses 43 to 54, Schedule 5, Clause 55, Schedule 6, Clauses 56 to 106, Schedule 7, Clauses 107 to 115, Schedule 8, Clauses 116 to 124, Schedule 9, Clauses 125 to 138, Schedules 10 and 11, Clauses 139 to 145, Schedule 12, Clauses 146 to 161, Clause 1, Title.

Motion agreed.