Building Safety Bill

Earl of Lytton Excerpts

Lords Hansard - Part 2 & Report stage
Tuesday 29th March 2022 Lords Chamber

I do not think we can simply sit and wait. If the Government cannot accept this amendment, they must come up with an alternative proposal that ticks the box. Without such an assurance, this Bill simply will not live up to its name.

[The Earl of Lytton (CB)]

My Lords, as it is my first contribution in this part of the Bill, I must necessarily declare my interests as a practising chartered surveyor, a member of the RICS and a patron of the Charted Association of Building Engineers. I am also a member of the Built Environment Select Committee, chaired by the doughty noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, who keeps us all in order. I think she is splendid and I do not say that for want of any favours. I also own residential rented property: no flats, no high-rise, thank goodness.

I pay tribute to the Minister for the meetings he has arranged, the dialogue in which he has been willing to engage and his untiring efforts and those of his Bill team. It is fair to say that we have come an enormous way in this Bill and that is in large part, if not solely, because of the drive the Minister has put into this. I am pleased that he has clarified the limited partnerships and provided the other clarifications in the amendments he has introduced. I also pay tribute to all noble Lords around the House who have stuck with the principle that the innocent should not be made to pay for the mistakes of the developers and constructors.

I will just deal, if I may, with Amendments 201 and 202, which are in my name and on which I will not be seeking the opinion of the House. They relate to a matter I referred to in Committee, which is insolvent landlords and their interests being escheated to the Crown. That means that potentially, there is no landlord as such to organise remediation work, leaving remediation in limbo and responsibility for costs uncertain. That follows on from what the noble Lord, Lord Young of Cookham, set out with, I may say, a degree of piercing clarity which I found unchallengeable. I will outline the differences between my further amendments and his, but not on these ones.

The sole purpose of my Amendment 201 is to clarify the Crown responsibility. Amendment 202 covers where a superior leaseholder defaults and as a result the liability potentially passes to others. This amendment would serve to prevent a lease being disclaimed, thereby creating another loophole and another piece of loose liability floating around the system.

Amendment 229 in my name is another probing amendment; I hope it is self-explanatory. It attempts to deal with a perceived problem of delay by landlords and agents in accepting first funding agreements for remediation. The matter was highlighted in a recent edition of Inside Housing. Reference was made to the logjam created because managing agents were reluctant to sign off on remediation contracts without knowing who would be paying for the work or, indeed, when. That effectively stalled the first funding offer acceptance.

It was thought that the matter had been resolved; according to the Inside Housing article, the Minister confirmed in December that the logjam had been cleared. Notwithstanding this, the article said, the problems persist. It reported cases in St Albans, London and Manchester; in other words, all over the country. It is known that there are few enough contractors ready and willing to take on the—quite demanding in some cases—work of remediation, which this Bill addresses. Delay will simply cause contractors to go elsewhere and opportunities to be lost. This prejudices both leaseholder and, ultimately, I suspect, freeholder. It makes no sense. There may be many reasons for this—usually, I suspect, surrounding the landlord’s own tactical and financial advantage—but none can justify the excessive delay that this amendment seeks to avoid.

There seems to be a bit of a blame game going on between the department on the one hand and block management interests on the other. I am reluctant to take sides on that. This amendment intends to treat the symptoms by setting a time limit on acceptance of the offer so that things cannot be spun out. I hope that it will have the effect of concentrating minds and will be conducive to good order for that reason.

I now turn to Amendments 234 to 237 in my name. I make it clear that, subject to what I may hear from the Minister, I may need to test the opinion of the House on these amendments. They would have a similar effect to Amendment 233 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Young; namely, to relieve leaseholders and freeholders of what many of us feel is an unjust imposition. Much of what we have been discussing arises because the Government believe, as I do, that, given the 30 years during which certain bad practices have taken root in construction quality, not every defect will have an identifiable perpetrator or associate currently in existence, solvent and with sufficient assets to make a claim a practical possibility. The Government seek to ensure that, if a construction defect exists which does not fall within their scheme of financial support for remediation and there is no perpetrator to be found, the public interest that buildings are made safe will persist. In their view, the only other possible sources of remediation funding are the freeholders and leaseholders.

I think it is fair to say that the noble Lords, Lord Young and Lord Blencathra, and I have been in a sort of huddle since Grand Committee. We all believe that the fallback should be the perpetrator of the situation. The amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Young, proposes falling back on the local authority or the Secretary of State—AKA the taxpayer. I am aware that the Treasury has said, in fairly blunt terms, “We have made an allocation of £5.1 billion and that is it.” That means no more money unless it comes out of the departmental budget, impinging on other important work that the department might wish to take place. I take it that this is one reason, among many, why the Secretary of State has taken the initiative to protect the departmental budget by seeking voluntary contributions from the construction industry for a further £4 billion for other defects—good on the Secretary of State for doing that.

The first question I have for the Minister is: can he update us on how things are progressing on that voluntary scheme? Certainly, the industry’s initial response was not very fulsome, and the Secretary of State made what one might describe as a somewhat sterner demand— and very rightly too. The Minister’s answer is pivotal to how likely it is that property owners will have to fork out for these defects and thus require the protections he seeks to build into this Bill.

If the perpetrator, as defined, cannot be found, then it becomes a test of what is “just and equitable”—to use the words in the Bill—in apportioning the orphaned responsibility and cost between two groups of property owners, who, in the main, are likely to be completely innocent of the construction-related defects and for whom arguably it is neither just nor equitable that they should bear that responsibility and cost at all. Of course, that circumvents what I understand to be meant by the perpetrator pays principle, and results in the passing back of both responsibility and cost—the two are not exactly the same—to the innocent.

Given the Government’s insistence on this approach, I conclude that the deficit between what can be claimed from extant, solvent and legally liable developers on the one hand, and the true remediation cost on the other, is likely to be significant; otherwise, why would we be here? Meanwhile, I sense the industry is telling us, in the blunt cant of the trade, that we can whistle for it.

The Government’s remediation model of liabilities, exemptions, cost controls, means testing, tiered contributions by property value, appeals to courts and much chasing of tails withal is certainly not straight-forward. Any one of the procedural steps is contestable to some degree and contested they will undoubtedly be. So, while the many leaseholder protections are welcome, such as cladding on buildings over 11 metres, building safety levy backstops on cladding costs, exemptions for sub-£175,000—or £325,000 in London—properties, and non-cladding remediation where the landlord is or was connected to developer.

These are very welcome, but the model is incomplete and there remain significant exclusions. Properties under 11 metres are certainly one of them, but we will have to wait until we get to Amendment 115 in a later group to discuss that. There is also the question of buy-to-let landlords with more than three properties, but we will have to wait until we get to Amendment 123 to consider that. There is no backstop for non-cladding remediation costs. Leaseholders in enfranchised or commonhold blocks, as discussed in Amendment 117, may get some support for cladding remediation from the building safety fund, but I question whether they will get everything they are due under a true perpetrator pays principle.

Some issues have not necessarily been eliminated, despite what the Government claim. The noble Lord, Lord Young, referred to the waterfall, so I can skip my explanation as he has explained it much better than I would. Establishing cost liability does not of itself generate funds for remediation if those liable to pay are broke. It is a very important principle, because if the guys made responsible have no assets or cannot get at their assets because they are mortgaged up to the hilt and there is no equity, then what is the purpose of placing this onus on them in the first place?

The Government are taking a substantial risk in leaving it to the courts to decide whether it would be “just and equitable” as regards their various proposed orders. That seems to be tantamount to an invitation for further litigation, delay, uncertainty, risks, and so on. There will be applications for remediation orders, remediation cost orders, building liability orders, and litigation under the Defective Premises Act—my mind freezes over when I see that list.

There is no bridging funding facility in any of this, so unless the Secretary of State steps in or some other funding is levered in, remediation cannot take place. People cannot simply buy in on spec some large amount of a contractor’s time and substance; it is just not going to happen. Some of those who might, I suppose, be in line to be contributors to this just and equitable approach to splitting it between innocent parties—and I am sorry to go on about that—are not going to be there. Some buy-to-let investors will be denied any protections, and some landlords will fail the cost contribution test; I tried to make that clear when we were dealing with this in Committee. If you multiply the number of properties that they hold by £2 million per property, you will very often find that the total figure is greater than their capitalised worth—ergo, they drop out of responsibility.

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[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, I rise with pleasure to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe. I agree with almost everything she said and very strongly back her amendment. The political spread we have just achieved across the House in that regard is interesting.

I sat through the previous group, and I am indebted to the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, for counting the 70 amendments in it. I listened to the detailed and informative contributions, particularly from the noble Lord, Lord Young of Cookham, and the noble Earl, Lord Lytton. I learned a great deal about waterfalls. I am still not entirely convinced that there is a solution to the “if no one’s left to pay who’s going to pay?” problem. None the less, it is very clear that this is an unusual Bill and that we have very broad agreement on what we are trying to achieve; that is, that the perpetrator pays to ensure that innocent leaseholders and home owners who through no fault of their own have found themselves trapped in awful, incredibly stressful, dangerous circumstances are not the ones who ultimately suffer and that the people who create the problem pay for it.

However, given the complexity of everything we have just done, we cannot be sure that the Bill will deliver and that there will not be unexpected hitches and problems along the way. I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, that five years is just too long. The noble Baroness, Lady Fox, spoke about the personal experience of being stuck out of a home, and some people are stuck in homes in awful situations. Two years is the right time to look at this in the round.

This may be where I slightly part company with two earlier speakers. I think there is broad agreement that we have a huge cultural problem in the building industry. I should perhaps declare a historic interest as the daughter of a builder. I knew quite a bit about the Australian building industry and lots of the problems that I saw in that situation have been magnified and intensified by economic developments over the past few decades. We have mass housebuilders that are far better at being cash cows than at producing homes. We are trying to change this situation and the whole culture of the industry. We are trying to get homes that are produced so that people have a secure, stable, affordable place to live. It is such an enormous change that we cannot wait five years to review this, so I commend the amendment tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe.

[The Earl of Lytton (CB)]

I, too, commend the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, on this amendment. Given the circumstances of the Bill, the number of variations in it and the sheer number of moving parts involved, a review is essential for precisely the reasons she said, and I support the amendment.

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Fox of Buckley, and my noble friend Lady Neville-Rolfe for this insightful debate.

Amendment 26 from the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, would require a review of the financial impact of the new regime. I reassure the noble Baroness that a review is already required by Clause 152, which provides that:

“The Secretary of State must appoint an independent person to carry out a review of”


the system of regulation of building safety and standards and the system of regulation for construction products. Importantly, the reviewer is not limited and may choose to review connected matters, including the matters mentioned in the noble Baronesses’ amendments.

Similarly, Amendment 246A in the name my noble friend Lady Neville-Rolfe would require a review of the impact of the Act. I apologise for the mix-up that resulted in my addressing this amendment in an earlier group. I will repeat for the record that we believe that this further replicates Clause 152 in the Bill and therefore we believe this is unnecessary.

What I do say to my noble friend is that the Secretary of State has to appoint someone to carry out the review within five years, so that is a long-stop date. I am very happy to meet my noble friend to ensure that we get going with this review at the very earliest opportunity to make sure that that long-stop date is comfortably met. We also need to make sure that this review is substantive and learns the lessons of a new regime in the broadest possible sense and addresses the points raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Fox of Buckley, as well those raised by my noble friend Lady Neville-Rolfe, who has had tremendous Front-Bench experience as well as experience as a distinguished civil servant.

With those explanations, I kindly ask the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, to withdraw her amendment and my noble friend Lady Neville-Rolfe not to press her amendment.

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Moved by

[The Earl of Lytton]

115: Clause 120, page 127, line 27, leave out from “dwellings” to end of line 32
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment extends the cost protections in the Bill to leaseholders in buildings of all heights containing two more residential dwellings.

[The Earl of Lytton (CB)]

My Lords, this amendment is leading the charge here. I refer noble Lords to Grand Committee, when the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, in particular, questioned why only buildings of a certain height benefited from the cost protections in this Bill. This is a matter on which I feel very strongly—and, indeed, both my cosignatories feel strongly—and I give notice that I may well press the amendment to a Division.

I reminded the Grand Committee at the time that building safety is not governed by building height alone or, possibly, at all. I refer to the fire at Worcester Park in September 2019. The Minister went on to give us a graphic description of the circumstances. However, despite that the Minister stuck to his text in suggesting that lower rise buildings do not have the same risk profile. I have probably paraphrased him, and that may not be the precise form of words that he used, but that is the drift of what he was saying. If, as he recounted in the circumstances of the Worcester Park fire, it was so well alight after nine minutes that the fire and rescue services concluded that the building could not be saved, that represents to me an existential risk to occupiers who may be asleep, confused of mind, infirm, pregnant, disabled or otherwise particularly vulnerable, especially as regards the speed with which an inferno can evidently develop.

A block of flats without adequate separating walls to me is just as dangerous above ground-floor level as a high-rise block without decent fire doors. I do not make a distinction in terms of risk; they are both equally perilous, as far as I can see. Be that as it may, I have received emails from occupiers of identical buildings in the same development in the Worcester Park building, telling me that the developer was remarkably reluctant to address basic issues and shortcomings, many of which may have accelerated the fire in the building that was actually destroyed. Furthermore, they said that they could not sell their flats and that insurance had gone through the roof, and interim measures were costing a fortune—exactly the same problems and privations as with taller buildings.

I will just say—other noble Lords will be able to elaborate—that the Government have not made the case for excluding these, other than giving the impression that this is driven, dare I say it, by a degree of Treasury parsimony and a departmental inclination to go no further than it absolutely has to. There seems no good reason for height exclusion on any moral, economic, safety or practical ground. I beg to move.

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[The Earl of Lytton (CB)]

My Lords, I will test the opinion of the House on Amendment 115 in a minute. However, before I do so, I will say how much I appreciate the contributions from all noble Lords. It has been an absolutely fascinating debate. As others have said, we are really getting into the core philosophy of what sits behind this Bill. I feel slightly like the skinny fly-half who, having got hold of the rugby ball and made a dash for the opposing side’s try line, finds himself up against a veritable wall of the opposition. It is only seconds later that he finds that a substantial number of heavyweights from his own side have propelled him over the line and applied him and the rugby ball into the mud to score a try. We have not scored a try yet. That, of course, depends on noble Lords—the referees.

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Young, for his summary of this and the other amendments—I found him to be wholly convincing. I will not go into a great deal of detail, given the well-rounded debate we have had, but Amendment 117 seems to address an issue which actually borders on discrimination on the grounds of tenure, and it is a really perverse outcome for commonholders as a tenure. It is a tenure to which the Government should be giving support—we all know that. Excluding them cannot be right.

Various noble Lords have spoken about extending the number of buy-to-let properties. That would rely on their accepting the basic premise of a charge to the leasehold and freehold properties as a default mode—I shall come back to that in a minute.

Amendment 126 is necessary because, unless the benefits under the Bill inure to the benefit of the buyer as a signee, the Bill would simply act to the prejudice of the seller, which would remain and lead to unfair loss, cost, worry, delay and disadvantage—and we cannot have that. A reduction to zero charge would be beneficial and I would support it, but, again, I go back to the question whether I would start from this point.

I welcome a lot of these amendments and would welcome some of those from the Government if I was not troubled by their basic premise of deciding that orphan cost liabilities must be spread between two categories of the innocent. It is a matter of policy; it is not a matter of human rights. I listened carefully to what the noble Lord, Lord Marks, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope of Craighead, said on that, and I found it absolutely fascinating. The fact remains that freeholders as we know them very often have a minority interest by value, so the questions remain: where do you find that real, available hard cash to fund the remediation, and after what degree of litigation, delay and cost?

Despite what the Minister said, and I admire his tenacity, I remain unconvinced by the arguments. On sub-11 metres, I do not see that the argument has been made for the quantifiable difference under the Bill that the Government are trying to achieve, bearing in mind that the Worcester Park building was a four-storey building. I wish to test the opinion of the House on Amendment 115.

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Moved by

[The Earl of Lytton]

234: After Clause 136, insert the following new Clause—
“Building safety cost orders
(1) The Secretary of State must by regulations make provision for the Building Safety Cost Panel to make building safety cost orders on the application of an interested person.(2) A “building safety cost order” under this section is an order requiring a specified body corporate to make payments to a specified person, for the purpose of meeting costs incurred or to be incurred in remedying relevant defects (or specified relevant defects) relating to a relevant building.(3) An order may—(a) require the making of payments of a specified amount, or payments of a reasonable amount in respect of the remediation of specified relevant defects (or in respect of specified things done or to be done for the purpose of remedying relevant defects);(b) require a payment to be made at a specified time, or to be made on demand following the occurrence of a specified event;(c) provide for payment in services or money’s worth.(4) The regulations must make provision for the Building Safety Cost Panel to issue a warning notice to a person before determining whether to make a building safety cost order under this section against that person.(5) The regulations must make provision requiring that a building safety cost order under this section—(a) be made in a prescribed form; (b) contain prescribed information.(6) The regulations may make provision about service of a building safety cost order under this section including—(a) how an order is to be served;(b) when an order is to be taken as having been served;(c) the persons on whom an order must be served.(7) The regulations must make provision in relation to—(a) enforcement of a building safety cost order made under this section (including enforcement by the Secretary of State or the tribunal);(b) powers of the Secretary of State to order a person served with a building safety cost order to pay any costs incurred by the Secretary of State under section (Building safety cost order: determinations) in respect of a building safety cost order under this section.(8) The regulations may make provision for persons to apply to the Secretary of State for a review of a building safety cost order under this section.(9) The regulations must make provision for appeals to the tribunal in relation to—(a) a decision of the Building Safety Cost Panel to make or not make a building safety cost order under this section;(b) a refusal by the Building Safety Cost Panel to review a building safety cost order under this section;(c) the outcome of a review by the Building Safety Cost Panel of a building safety cost order under this section.(10) The regulations may in particular include provision suspending a requirement to pay an amount due under a building safety cost order under this section pending the determination of a review.(11) The Secretary of State must make regulations under this section within a period of three months beginning with the day this section comes into force.(12) In this section—“associated”: see section 123;“interested person”, in relation to a relevant building, means—(a) the regulator (as defined by section 2),(b) a local authority (as defined by section 29) for the area in which the relevant building is situated,(c) a fire and rescue authority (as defined by section 29) for the area in which the relevant building is situated, or(d) a person with a legal or equitable interest in the relevant building or any part of it;“prescribed” means prescribed by regulations under this section;“relevant building” means a building consisting of or containing one or more dwellings;“relevant defect”: see section 122;“specified” means specified in the order.(13) This section comes into force on the day this Act is passed.”Member’s explanatory statement
This new Clause confers a regulation-making power for the Secretary of State to provide for making of building safety cost orders by the Building Safety Cost Panel.

[The Earl of Lytton (CB)]

I wish to test the opinion of the House.