Lords Chamber

Thursday 16th October 2025

(began 3 hours, 19 minutes ago)

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None Portrait Introduction(s): Lord Stockwood and Baroness Lloyd of Effra
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Charles Charles the Charles the Third. Charles the Third. By Charles the Third. By the Charles the Third. By the grace of God of the United Kingdom, of of God of the United Kingdom, of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and of our other realms and territories, King, head of the Commonwealth, defender of the Faith to all lords, spiritual and to all lords, spiritual and temporal, and all other our subjects. Whatsoever to whom these subjects.

Whatsoever to whom these presents shall come. Greeting. Know ye that we of our special grace, certain knowledge, and may emotion, in pursuance of the Life Peerages Act 1958, and of all other powers, Act 1958, and of all other powers, in that behalf us enabling do by these presents advance, create and prefer our trusty and well beloved prefer our trusty and well beloved Jason Stockwood to the state degree, style, dignity, title and honour of Baron Stockwood, of Great Grimsby Baron Stockwood, of Great Grimsby and Cleethorpes, in our County of Lincolnshire, and for us, our heirs Lincolnshire, and for us, our heirs and successors, to appoint, give and grant unto him the said name, state, grant unto him the said name, state, degree, style, dignity, title and honour of Baron Stockwood to happen to hold unto him for his life.

Willing and by these presents granting for us our heirs and successors, that he may have, hold and possess a seat, place, and voice in the parliaments and public assemblies and counsels of us, our heirs and successors within our United Kingdom, amongst the barons, and also that he may enjoy and use all the rights, privileges, Preeminences, immunities, and advantages to the degree of a Baron duly and of right belonging, which Barons of our United Kingdom have heretofore used and enjoyed, or, as they do at present, use and enjoy.

In witness whereof we have caused these our letters to be made patent witness our self at Westminster, the ninth day of October, in the fourth year of our reign, by warrant, under the King's sign manual.

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I. Jason Lord Stockwood to swear by Almighty God that will be faithful and bear true allegiance to His Majesty King Charles, his heirs and successors according to the law.

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I.

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Charles Charles the Charles the Third, Charles the Third, by Charles the Third, by the Charles the Third, by the grace

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Charles the Third, by the grace of God of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and of our other realms, its and of our other realms, its territories. King, head of the Commonwealth, defender of the Faith to all Lords, spiritual and to all Lords, spiritual and temporal, and all other our subjects. Whatsoever to whom these subjects. Whatsoever to whom these presents shall come. Greeting. Know ye that we of our special grace, ye that we of our special grace, certain knowledge, and may emotion in pursuance of the Life Peerages in pursuance of the Life Peerages Act 1958, and of all other powers, in that behalf us enabling do by in that behalf us enabling do by these presents advance, create and prefer our trustee and well-beloved prefer our trustee and well-beloved Elizabeth Anne Lloyd, commander of our most excellent Order of the our most excellent Order of the British Empire, to the state degree, British Empire, to the state degree, style, dignity, title and honour of Baroness Lloyd of Effra of Tulse Hill, in our London Borough of Lambeth.

And for us, our heirs and successors, to appoint, give and successors, to appoint, give and grant unto her the said name, state, degree, style, dignity, title and honour of Baroness Lloyd of Effra to have and to hold unto her for her life, willing and by these presents granting for us our heirs and successors, that she may have, hold and possess a seat, place, and voice in the parliaments and public assemblies and councils of us, our heirs and successors within our United Kingdom, amongst the barons, and also that she may enjoy and use all the rights, privileges, Preeminences, immunities and advantages to the degree of a Baron duly and of right belonging, which Barons of our United Kingdom have heretofore used and enjoyed, or, as they do at present, use and enjoy.

In witness whereof we have caused these our letters to be made patent witness our self at Westminster, the 13th day of October, in the fourth year of our reign, by warrant under the King's sign manual.

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I. Elizabeth Baroness Lloyd of Effra. Do you swear by Almighty God Effra. Do you swear by Almighty God that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to His Majesty King Charles, his heirs and successors Charles, his heirs and successors

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That

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My
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None Portrait Lord Speaker
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My My Lord, My Lord, before My Lord, before all My Lord, before all questions, My Lord, before all questions, I have a short statement to make. I have a short statement to make. I have served as Lord speaker since the House was kind enough to place the House was kind enough to place its trust in me in 2021. And as you may be aware, the election for my may be aware, the election for my successor in the post is due to take place in July next year.

However, place in July next year. However, for reasons I will explain, I wish to announce to you today that I will to announce to you today that I will step down from my post a few months earlier than that, some years ago, earlier than that, some years ago, my wife Joan was diagnosed with Parkinson's. Since that time, I have Parkinson's. Since that time, I have combined my parliamentary work with my responsibilities at home and my responsibilities at home and during this period, and indeed throughout my career.

The support of throughout my career. The support of my wife has been essential to my service in Parliament. It was Joan service in Parliament. It was Joan who encouraged me to return to education and to become a teacher. education and to become a teacher. After I left school with no formal qualifications. She selflessly supported me in my work as MP for our home town of Dumbarton, as well as in this House, so I have now taken the decision that I must in future, spend the majority of my time at home supporting my wife.

I have informed the Leader of the House that my final day in this post will be the 1st of February, 2026, and House officials will make the necessary preparations for an election to select my successor in time for an orderly handover. My Lords, it's been the honour and privilege of my life to serve this House as its fourth Lord speaker. And in the remaining months of my tenure, I will continue to do my utmost to fulfil my duties diligently.

My work has been made easier and more satisfying by the friendship and support I have enjoyed from so many of you across the whole House. I have been ably supported by the excellent and dedicated team of Deputy Speakers, and I have benefited each and every day from the superb work of the staff of the House, in particular the exceptional team in my own office. So I would like to express my deepest gratitude to all noble Lords and to the staff of the House for the unstinting support that I
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Lord Livermore Portrait Lord Livermore, The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Labour)
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I'm grateful to the noble Lord for his question. Before I answer him directly, I also pay tribute to the Lord speaker. He's been a friend to me when he was an MP when I was first joined this House and pay tribute to his outstanding service as speaker of this House. The noble Lord is absolutely correct to say that stablecoins have a huge potential to play a significant role in both retail and wholesale payments. We are already seeing the benefits of stablecoin come providing cross-border payments, for example, by reducing costs and improving efficiencies.

So I think he's absolutely right to say it's important for the UK to harness these opportunities for the ongoing competitiveness of the UK financial services sector. I do not think, though, it's fair to say, that the US is particularly going any faster than the UK. I think you reading media coverage, you may conclude that, but I think the reality is that the US passed legislation for the regulation of stablecoin. In the summer, US regulators will publish their regulatory rules in mid 2026, with the backstop date of January 27th.

For the US regime to go live in the UK. The government published draft legislation in April, with the final legislation due before the end of the year, and alongside this, the FCA is at an advanced stage in its consultations on the details of its regime, with a view to finalise its detailed rules and requirements in 2026. This will allow firms to be authorised and running in the UK regime by 2027.
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Lord Livermore Portrait Lord Livermore, The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Labour)
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with with every word that the noble Lord said. I think absolutely getting the regulatory regime right for this is important. And as I say,

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we'll bring forward that legislation by the end of this year. We already have now explained that.

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that. As the co-chair of the all-party group on digital currencies. And can group on digital currencies. And can I ask the minister, given the Bank of England's announcement that it plans to regulate how much plans to regulate how much stablecoin an individual can hold in a stablecoin is simply a digital currency linked to a fiat currency currency linked to a fiat currency for the benefit of the noble Lord, Lord Brennan. Does this not send a terrible signal to people who want terrible signal to people who want to base their crypto businesses in the UK? And would he ask the Bank of England to publish their modelling, England to publish their modelling, because their reasoning is based on the fact that unlimited holdings of stablecoins might lead to a run on

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bank deposits? Here, here. I'm grateful to the. Grateful to the noble Lord for his question, and as Chair of that committee, I'm sure he could help educate very many of he could help educate very many of us in this House. As I've said, the government recognises facilitating stablecoin innovation is important stablecoin innovation is important for UK competitiveness, but it is a matter for the Bank of England as the independent regulator for the independent regulator for systemic stablecoin to design the regime, they see necessary to manage the associated risks.

As I the associated risks. As I understand it, in November 2023, the bank published a discussion paper on its proposed regulatory regime for systemic payment systems using stablecoins seeking industry feedback. Following further informal engagement, the bank will formally consult on its systemic stablecoin regime in the coming months.

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Second oral question Baroness Stowell of Beeston. My leave to ask. The questions.

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The questions. Coming in my name on the Order Paper.
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None Portrait Oral questions: Resolving the ownership of the Telegraph and ensuring compliance with Chapter 3A of the Enterprise Act 2002
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is a quasi judicial process, and it is for the Secretary of State to determine this matter. The question little shop of Epsom.
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Baroness Smith of Malvern Portrait Baroness Smith of Malvern, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Labour)
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My noble friend is absolutely right. Of course, the opportunities that young people have throughout their lives are dependent on the standards, the quality and the success that they that those young people therefore have in schools, which is why we will we have already taken action to ensure that there are new routes available for young people. Post 16, for example, through foundation apprenticeships. It's why we have increased the support available to young people in colleges for to get the qualifications in English and maths that are so important for them later in life.

And it's why, through both Becky Francis's curriculum and assessment review and the government's Post 16 Skills and Education White Paper will have more to say about how we ensure that there are clear, successful routes for all of our young people. Post 16. My. Look, my Lords, I'm disappointed to hear the Minister in talking about youth unemployment, to talk about Universal Credit and talk about Universal Credit and other such things. I would have thought, and I would ask the Minister to consider, that surely Minister to consider, that surely one of the basic ways of reducing youth unemployment is to use more apprentices and encourage more apprentices.

If we only had people who were encouraged financially by the government in in plumbing, in electrical and all the trades that electrical and all the trades that people need, we are using people from overseas because we're not from overseas because we're not training anyone. And I would like to know that government is giving know that government is giving financial incentives to the plumbers, electricians and the like to actually train the tradespeople to actually train the tradespeople for the future. Yeah.

Lord that yes, indeed we are. And he's right that the fact that there's been a 40% reduction in young people starting apprenticeships over recent years is a shocking indictment of the last government's approach to skills and the training of young people. And that's why one of the things, for example, just this August, that August that we have introduced is new foundation apprenticeships to support young people into employment in a range of different areas, important both for them and for the economy as a whole.

And it's why. And in those, incidentally, there is a £2,000 incentive to the employer to take on those young people for training. And it's why we'll have more to say about that and the opportunities for young people when we publish our post 16 whitepaper.
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None Portrait Oral questions: Changing law or practice regarding police vetting, training or discipline
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about all of that in our post 16 White Paper soon. Fourth oral question Baroness Chakrabarti.
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Lord True Portrait Lord True (Conservative)
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Questions on a statement made in the House of Commons on Tuesday the

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14th of October on the Middle East. My Lords, when the Lord speaker told me of his decision last night told me of his decision last night to retire early, I was actually overwhelmed by the sense of his love for his wife of 56 years. That led to the decision. There'll be another time for tributes, my Lords, but I would like the Lord speaker to know how much he himself is loved in this House, and he and Joan will be in our thoughts and prayers in the time ahead.

My Lords, everyone in this House will welcome the wide acceptance of the US led plan, and I want to congratulate all those regional and world leaders who played a decisive role in helping stage one cease fire become a reality. It represents a significant breakthrough on which we all hope a sustainable end to the conflict in Gaza and a better peaceful future can be built. And let us be clear, the unique personality and drive of President Trump has moved the dial in a way that very few, until a very few days ago ever believed possible.

He deserves the highest praise for that, and frankly, how foolish those are. Like Sir Edward Davey, who boasted of boycotting the president's state visit, must now feel. But my Lords, having a move for dial, we now have to move mountains, ending permanently a crisis of long decades composing hatreds intensified in war and death. This will be a monumental challenge, yet it can and must succeed. The release of the hostages who should never have been taken, taunted, tortured and abused brings to their families and all the people of Israel a joy and relief that we all share.

But now Hamas must end their sick gains with the families of the hostages they murdered in those hundreds of miles of dark tunnels on which they squandered international aid. My Lords, none of us can ever comprehend how the families of those lost people must be feeling. All the bodies of the deceased hostages must be returned for proper burial. As the Prime Minister has emphasised, just a noble Baroness have any further information on this? My Lords, when we hear some of the comments prophesying failure of the international initiative when it's barely started and even see continuing anti-Semitic demonstrations on our streets, even on October the 7th, many of us must ask ourselves if some people actually want the prize of peace.

My Lords, will the noble Baroness be absolutely assured of our support for the government in all it has done and can do in the future in help carrying, helping to carry forward the international plan? It's true that we believe that the government's action in recognising a Palestinian state, while Hamas was still in control of Gaza, was a serious error. Secretary of State Rubio had said it was unhelpful to finding a sustainable end to the conflict. And we agree we support a two state solution that guarantees security and stability for both the Israeli and the Palestinian people.

But will the noble Baroness assure us that now the UK government on this and other matters will proceed in lockstep with the Sharm el Sheikh plan? Does she agree that if the Palestinian Authority is to have an expanded role, it needs to implement the most significant reforms in its history, including to its welfare and education policies? And of course, it must demonstrate democratic process. Can the noble progress? Can the noble Baroness tell the House how the British government will be assisting in that? And can she also update the House on the latest position in respect to our role in getting humanitarian assistance into Gaza, whose people have suffered so long and so much? Can she say how we will ensure that aid does not go into the hands of the murderous thugs of Hamas? My lords, the barbaric sight of Hamas lining up and filming bound Muslims being shot publicly in the back of the neck is something that even Stalin thought best hidden in the cellars of the Blanka.

It was a micro image of the terror that her have exacted on their own people, in addition to their never to be forgotten atrocities of October the 7th against the State of Israel, and people who had committed no crime except to be born Jews. Hamas has no regard for human life or human dignity. My Lords, does the government agree that Hamas must be erased? Absolutely from the political map of Gaza forever, its terrorist infrastructure completely dismantled, and the poisonous ideology of Islamist extremism confronted everywhere across the world and here in our own homeland, has a noble Baroness any update for the House on the formation of an international force to provide security in Gaza? As the international plan envisages.

And finally, my Lords, can I welcome the tone of this Prime Minister statement and also that of the Home Secretary on the evil of anti-Semitism and the mania of libel against Jews? Of course, we condemn any assault or threat to anyone on the basis of their faith and beliefs. The outrage at Peacehaven has no place in Britain, but the Home Secretary was refreshing in her frankness, not always heard from within her party in recent years, as some in this House can very well testify that Islamist terrorism and its twisted ideology is our greatest domestic threat, and that anti-Semitism is on the march across communities, in our schools, universities, even the NHS, and threatening members of your lordships House as they try to come and go to this place.

The government will have our fullest support and decisive action in those areas. As the Home Secretary has promised. Can the noble Baroness say if any of the measures foreshadowed by the Home Secretary could be included in the crime Bill, which is before us today? My Lords, it's good that protection for Jewish institutions is being stepped up, but we need to return to a society where no Jewish person feels that they have to be protected. And we must aspire to a world where all the children of the Middle East are educated, not in hate, but in harmony.

And where that great region, the cradle of so much that is good in the history of humanity, spends its inestimable material and human resources not on guns, but on growth, and frankly, where all their ways are gentleness and all their paths are peace. Yes, my Lords, it will be a giant task to bring the international plan to fruition. But we must all put our shoulders to the wheel. And every step that our Prime Minister takes to help make it happen will have our strongest support.
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Lord Purvis of Tweed Portrait Lord Purvis of Tweed (Liberal Democrat)
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My Lords on behalf of the Liberal Democrat benches, I also wish to thank the Lord speaker for his work in this House, but also the decades of public service and the very personal nature of his statement, which highlighted the sacrifice that many of our loved ones and family members. Go through when we carry out our public duties, and we will look forward to Du statements in the future on tributes to him and his role. I preface my remarks as I did in my first comment as leader of the Liberal Democrats in this House, calling for a statement from the government on Sudan and the world's worst humanitarian crisis.

And I repeat that to the leader. I also wish to start my remarks on the Middle East by condemning the horrific incidents of anti-Semitism that we have seen in our communities. Alas, the most recent has not been isolated, and we must redouble our efforts to ensure our Jewish community is not only safe but feels safe in our country. In too many situations, it has not. And also too many young Muslims are fearful of Islamophobia. And even if we see the sustaining of the ceasefire and the eventual peace that we all hope for, we must be aware that one of the likely legacies of this war will be the will be seen in our communities for years and years to come, and we must be prepared for that.

The excruciating and sometimes performed performative press events that we've seen in the last few days. While children without shelter continue to suffer, means that healing is going to be important, and the lack and the two two frequency of the political stunts when there is the humanitarian crisis continuing, should make us all feel very sober. The Hostage returns is an extremely welcome and enormous relief for the families. It was a reprehensible war crime for Hamas to have held them in the way they did, and the return of the bodies of those that, sadly, have lost their lives may mean some healing for those who have suffered.

The scale of the recovery is going to be enormous in both physical and mental terms. 80 years on in this country, we collectively recall the Blitz and the damage and trauma it inflicted on London during the Second World War, 20,000 bombs were dropped on London, a terrifying figure in Gaza. Geographically, a quarter of the size of London, 70,000 tons of bombs have been dropped in two years. The level of destruction inflicted on London then resulted in over 2.7 million tonnes of rubble needing to be cleared, which literally took well over a decade to complete.

In Gaza, remember a quarter of the footprint of London? The scale of the bombardment has resulted in 6060 million tons of rubble, more than 20 times that of the Blitz on London. So my first question to the leader is what role will the UK play? And the enormous task of the scale of the recovery that's going to be necessary, including rubble clearance and the commencing of reconstruction? We will have to operate at scale and therefore I appeal to the government again to move towards restoring our commitment on international development assistance.

That reduction from 0.3% by the current government and now the opposition, stating that they will reduce it to next to zero, means that this is not right. We need to step up on our humanitarian support for the reconstruction of Gaza, not leave the room. The impact on the civilians as well reported the starvation, the denial of anaesthesia for operations on children and the creation of conditions that have seen Hamas gangsterism continue. But the underreported but grim task is now only commencing, which is likely that the thousands of corpses needed to be identified under the rubble.

When I visited the Gaza border last year, I was struck by the constancy of the explosions, gunfire, jet aircraft howls and the dull but persistent and constant sound and sight of drones. Imagine our children not having a single night where this is not been ever present for two years. Therefore, the psychological scars and the mental scars are deep, and an entire generation of children are traumatised. But also we know that Israeli youngsters who did not want war or have any role in that policy of, of having a war, have had their national service where they have served their nations, but they have gone through hell in this process, two sets of communities deeply scarred.

So when we talk about peace, we do need to understand fully what it will mean, because it is deep and the trauma will be present. Therefore, I close with this specific appeal to the Minister, which I've raised to the leader which I praised previously, and what role the UK can play. We do need clarity from the government with regards to what level of support it will provide to the Palestinian Authority, and the likely to be the transitional authority. What practical measures the UK will be providing? The UK has got excellent experience of post-conflict reconstruction and we have professionalism and good relations, and how are we going to exploit that? And also what relationship with the UK play with the emerging Stabilisation Force? But as I've seen in my work that I carried out in north Iraq after Daesh had occupied Mosul.

The UK can play a very important role in restoring education and child trauma support, especially for the psychological psychosocial support that's needed. Recovery from the horror must be immediate, intensive and accessible, and the UK can play a direct role in having immediate pop up education and child child trauma centres constructed immediately. But this should not be an add on to the process. There is no mention of education and child support in the 21 point plan from the United States, so I hope the Minister, the leader, may be willing to meet me and some colleagues with regards to ensuring that if we talk about peace, that's for the long term, not just an immediate ceasefire.
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Baroness Smith of Basildon Portrait Baroness Smith of Basildon, Leader of the House of Lords and Lord Privy Seal (Labour)
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There have. come back the Lord speaker as well, who's a personal friend and I first knew in 19, I think it was about 84 because we were both candidates in the 87 election together for the first time. And I think the.

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Reasons he is standing down go to the heart of the integrity of the man as well. So we.

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So we. Will miss him, but we'll. Enjoy. Working with him. And then he finishes his term before. He.

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He. Stands down. Also, I think both of the broads for the comments they of the broads for the comments they made and the tone and particularly the support to the government for the work we're undertaking. This isn't a party political issue. I isn't a party political issue. I think across the world parties have come together. Countries are coming come together. Countries are coming together to take part in the process of a ceasefire and what comes next. of a ceasefire and what comes next.

And we all know from experience that when you have a plan to move forward, there are times when the forward, there are times when the next step forward is imperfect, it's sometimes inadequate, it's difficult, but it's that step by step approach that takes us to a place where people can be safe. And place where people can be safe. And what we've seen over the past two years. When the hostages were first years. When the hostages were first taken, there are things that can't be undone.

The images we've seen on TV when we saw those hostages being TV when we saw those hostages being taken, we can't unsee that. When we saw children starving in Gaza and saw children starving in Gaza and houses bombed, we can't unsee that. But neither can we unsee the joy and the relief from the families who have seen their loved ones returned, and the horrors they have been through in that time. And I know it's right to talk about releasing all the hostages.

It is a tragedy that some are now being returned as bodies to be buried, but for their families to be able to grieve, they must see all the hostages returned. And I hope that international efforts can be brought to bear on that as well. The noble Lord talked about the. He felt the wreckage of the Palestinian state was the wrong thing to do. I would challenge that. I think all of these things, the process and the only way forward for genuine peace with a secure and stable and confident Israel alongside a viable Palestinian state, is to have that two state solution and the recognition of Palestine along with other countries we saw was very important in that.

It's interesting that after the other countries in the UK recognise Palestine, we saw the Arab countries also condemn Hamas, which we hadn't seen before. So, as I say to him, the road and the path to peace is often an imperfect one, but it's one that has to be taken to assure the safety of people. He asked about both noble Lords asked about next steps. The path to peace is going to be difficult, and that's why the Wilton Park Conference will be so important on reconstruction.

And I did find the ways forward, the role different countries can play, more details that will become available as the conference progresses. But can I also say the role of Sir Michael Barber as UK envoy of the Palestinian Authority? Governance will be crucial in all of this. Noble Lord true, I think the obsession asked about in reconstructing Gaza, there's issues such as education, there's the health service. You know, there is not a viable state there. In a sense. They haven't got the public service infrastructure and dealing with that.

And what he made about support needed for young people, particularly in the trauma centres, that's all going to be part of having a viable state. You have to have a viable public sector that can deliver the services that people need. And so the work that he will be undertaking is also part of the reform agenda as well. Strengthen the capacity for delivery, improve the service provision, and that's going to be essential as a Palestinian Authority is able to build an effective state of Palestine and take on the full responsibilities there, and we need to empower and help form that Palestinian Authority.

The other point on how do you ensure this? There are now going to be more agencies on the ground, and I think it's going to be important that we see journalists now having access. So there can be reports back and public awareness as well. I can easily restate there is no role for Hamas in the government of Palestine. I think the Prime Minister has been very clear on that. It's absolutely crucial that Hamas decommission their weapons, and that's a precursor to actually seeing a genuine, sustainable and lasting peace as well.

Both noble Lords made comments on what is the is a rise in anti-Semitism in the country, which alarms us all. But I think one of the things that alarms me most is the blatant voicing of that, that people seem to have a new confidence of expressing anti-Semitism, and I think that goes alongside the rise. But it's equally important to address that. There can be no acceptance of anti-Semitism. It's another phobia in this country when our Jewish community doesn't feel safe, that damages us all.

Now, the government has provided, I think so far about £80 million funding for communities CSG and that will fund will continue. But I think all of us have to call out anti-Semitism, even in its most minor forms, as and when we hear it, it can never be tolerated, it's never acceptable, and we will be failing in our duty to our Jewish community if we don't call it out on each and every opportunity we are called to do so.
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Baroness Hussein-Ece Portrait Baroness Hussein-Ece (Liberal Democrat)
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I.

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Democrat Friends of Palestine. Oh my Lord. speak.

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speak. So if we go with the Liberal Democrats and then our. You from the crossbench now, I'm grateful. Declaring that I'm president of

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Declaring that I'm president of Liberal Democrat Friends of Palestine, absolutely accept that the leader of the Liberal House has the leader of the Liberal House has just said about Hamas is coming up a lot. The Hamas has no place in any future government in governance of a future government in governance of a free and independent Palestine. I think everyone agrees to that. And think everyone agrees to that. And I, I think the tributes to the Arab and Muslim countries who have been absolutely vital and instrumental in bringing this about has been very well placed.

And I'm particularly well placed. And I'm particularly pleased that Turkey, Turkey, President Erdogan plays such a key role without. And he was given that role without. And he was given that emphasis. The emphasis was given by President Trump himself, were able President Trump himself, were able to put pressure on Hamas to agree to this deal and to all the conditions that they will have to disarm. But that they will have to disarm. But when at the moment, the concern we have is that we are in very fragile, have is that we are in very fragile, fragile moments when we're between two phase one and phase two, phase one is clear.

Now the urgent need is one is clear. Now the urgent need is for eggs to come in. That's the urgent need for aid. The Rafah crossing is still closed. So can I ask? There are children. I'm being

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heckled and I'm going to continue my. I'm coming to. The question. I'm not going to be bullied by

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I'm not going to be bullied by two conservatives. I think. There is an urgent need for aid and there has not been enough and there has not been enough emphasis on that. The Rafah crossing is still closed. The aid is not getting through. People are still suffering. Medical aid hasn't got three children. There are 20,000 orphaned children at least. So I orphaned children at least. So I ask. Can I ask the minister on this technical when we when the technical when we when the discussions are taking place, what special emphasis will be placed on all those children that have nobody all those children that have nobody if they don't have an orphaned and I the special the special protection and need? Can I ask about the children, as my noble friend did on on the protection for children,
12:40
Baroness Smith of Basildon Portrait Baroness Smith of Basildon, Leader of the House of Lords and Lord Privy Seal (Labour)
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on the protection for children, particularly in Palestine? There was a number of items in

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There was a number of items in there, particularly on the aid being delivered. She asked about the Rafah crossing. It was open briefly, then closed again. My understanding now is it's preparations are now being made to reopen it because clearly, though, airdrops are useful way of getting aid in it has to get into the lorries. So preparations there. I understand that. Tom Fletcher, I saw something yesterday or this morning that he was out there working on that as well.

She makes a particular point about children of Gaza, and she's absolutely right to do so, because many of those children, the traumas they are going to feel for what they've been through is going to be enormous. And I think looking at the reconstruction conference will be taking place at Wilton Park, one of the issues has to be in the work that Michael Barbara is doing as the UK envoy in Palestine is looking at the services that are available and how that can be provided at pace and ongoing, because unless you have the recognition that life isn't going to be normal, it's not a ceasefire and the life is normal, the next day, the infrastructure of the country is in a dire state.

And we've heard from nightmare from Pilate about hospitals being destroyed. Schools have gone. There is so much work to be done, but the efforts should be ensuring that we want those young people who are grown up now to be part of the future of their country, and they can only do that if the right support is in place now and the traumas they've been through, the tragedies they have suffered, that is also dealt with in a way that allows them to play a full part.

It would be the future of their states.
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12:47
Baroness Smith of Basildon Portrait Baroness Smith of Basildon, Leader of the House of Lords and Lord Privy Seal (Labour)
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relationships between Israelis and those living locally. Can you do

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something about it? I think all of us will do our

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I think all of us will do our best, but no one will make the important point that the path to peace is a process. It's never a moment. It's something that's ongoing. And members of your Lordships' House, we call the Lordships' House, we call the process bringing peace to Northern Ireland wasn't one that was easy at times. The steps that are taken forward are imperfect. They're inadequate, they're unsatisfactory. But it's a step forward. And at each But it's a step forward.

And at each stage I think we have to recognise the way the goal is and the prize of the way the goal is and the prize of peace for people in that region has to be the greatest prize ever. What the children, the young people, the the children, the young people, the old people, they've just think about it. People going around about their lives. So their loved ones snatched lives. So their loved ones snatched and taken as hostages for fear there, and people trying to live there, and people trying to live their lives in Gaza.

So their homes, their hospitals, their schools destroyed. So the path will be destroyed. So the path will be difficult. Path will be rocky. I don't know. I recognise the times that he offers. But each day forward where people aren't being killed is progress. And that's what we aim for. Yeah.

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for. Yeah. My notes are I'll pause for a minute or two to allow noble Lords to leave who wish to before. to leave who wish to before.
12:49
None Portrait Legislation: Crime and Policing Bill - second reading
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Policing Bill.
12:49
Baroness Levitt Portrait Baroness Levitt, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Labour)
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Lord Hanson of Flint. disappoint anybody. I'm in fact, not the Lord Hanson of Flint. It's would not be a very convincing interpreter impersonation, not least because he's sitting next to me. But you will have the pleasure of hearing from him later on. My Lords, I beg to move that the bill be. Now, read a second time, my Lords, this bill reflects not only our manifesto commitments, but it demonstrates the careful stocktake that we have made of important parts of our criminal justice system and our determination to improve the law where needed.

It aims to keep citizens safer and more confident in the daily lives of all of us. And I am proud of our proposals. They are fair and proportionate and they add to the law where needed. My Lords, as part of the Bill's driving force, which is to make people and communities safer, it will build on what we have done already in the past year to rebuild neighbourhood policing. We are restoring public trust in the criminal justice system by the delivery of our Safer Streets mission, and we aim to halve, yes, halve, knife crime and violence against women and girls in a decade.

For too long, neighbourhood policing has been neglected and downgraded. That has ended. We are already delivering on our commitments with 13,000 additional neighbourhood policing personnel by the end of the Parliament, backed by £200 million in new funding this year. Alongside this investment, the bill brings in new respect orders. These are to tackle persistent offenders who engage in the antisocial behaviour which blights our town centres. There are enhanced powers to tackle the antisocial use of cars and off road bikes, and the police will now be able to seize these without first having to give a warning.

My everyone should feel safe when they're at work, and this bill delivers stronger action to protect shop workers. Assaulting a shop worker will be a bespoke criminal offence, with a presumption that the courts will, on conviction, impose a criminal behaviour order on offenders. We are also repealing the provision that treats low value shop theft as a minor offence. Shoplifting is not mine and my Lords, and we are sending a clear message that all shop theft should be taken seriously.

Yes, I know both these measures will be particularly welcomed by the Justice and Home Affairs Committee. Part two of the bill brings in Ronan's law. We are clamping down on dangerous knives and weapons in our streets by introducing a duty on retailers to report bulk sales of knives and offensive weapons, increasing the maximum penalty for offences relating to the sale of knives to children and strengthening the age verification requirements for the online sale and delivery of bladed products and crossbows.

We are also delivering on our manifesto commitment to hold senior managers of online platforms personally liable for failure to take action to remove illegal content relating to knives and offensive weapons. I turn now, my Lords, to violence against women and children. The prevalence of violence and abuse against women and children defiles our society. We need more effective enforcement, action against perpetrators and better protection for victims. To this end, the bill strengthens stalking protection orders and the management of registered sex offenders, including preventing them from changing their names on official identity documents where they pose a risk of sexual harm.

The bill also creates a new offence of administering a harmful substance, including by spiking, to make it absolutely clear that such behaviour is illegal and to encourage victims to report such incidents. Recognising how dangerous online material is in perpetuating the growing epidemic of violence against women and girls, we will bring forward amendments in your lordships House to criminalise pornography that depicts acts of strangulation and suffocation. And may I take this opportunity to pay tribute to the noble lady, Baroness Burton, for her tireless work, culminating in the Pornography Review, which recommended that action be taken in this area.

Child sexual abuse and exploitation are amongst the most despicable crimes imaginable. It is estimated that half a million children every year experienced some form of child sexual abuse. Alongside the new national inquiry recommended by the noble Lady Baroness Casey. We are pleased to be pressing ahead with the important implementation of some of the key recommendations of the Independent Inquiry into Child Sexual Abuse. As a result, the Bill creates a duty to report child sexual abuse backed up by strong criminal sanctions for those who seek to cover up such abuse by preventing or deterring a person from carrying out the duty, it makes grooming a statutory aggravating factor when sentencing, and it removes the three year time limit for civil personal injury claims brought by victims and survivors of child sexual abuse.

Part five of the bill also helps to tackle the rising levels of online child sexual abuse. In particular, the bill provides for new criminal offences to stop and we mean stop. I facilitated child sexual abuse and to hold accountable those who commit or enable these vile crimes. I commend the noble Lady Baroness Kidron for her earlier advocacy of the new child sexual abuse image generator offence my Lord. The bill also provides enhanced protections for children and vulnerable adults against their exploitation for criminal purposes.

First, it provides for a new offence of child criminal exploitation. So where an adult intentionally uses a child to commit to criminal activity and to complement this new offence, the bill also provides for child criminal exploitation prevention orders to help prevent the criminal exploitation of children from occurring. Second, the bill introduces a new offence to tackle the practice of cooking where criminals take over the home of a vulnerable person for the purpose of illegal activity, such as drug dealing.

Thirdly, the bill creates a new offence to combat coerced internal concealment or plugging where children or vulnerable adults are coerced into concealing drugs or other items in their body for criminal purposes, typically as part of a county lines operation. We also recognise how dangerous online material is in perpetuating the growing epidemic of violence against women and girls. We committed in the other place, to criminalising pornography that depicts acts of strangulation and suffocation in this bill, and we will shortly bring forward an amendment to that effect.

I turn now to children who are victims of child sexual abuse. As noble Lords will be aware, ten years ago the Street Offences Act 1959 was amended so that the offences of persistent loitering or soliciting in a public place for the purposes of prostitution no longer applied to children. Parliament was right to do that because in doing so, Parliament recognised that children, because they are children involved in such conduct, are not criminals, that they are themselves the victims of sexual exploitation.

I am pleased to say that we will now bring forward amendments in this House to introduce a new disregards and pardon scheme for anyone who, as a child, was convicted or cautioned for these offences. A town I now turn to policing. We will address the need to rebuild trust in policing in some serious and worrying cases. Public confidence has been undermined by atrocious criminality and misconduct by a very small minority of officers. Deterrence and punishment. As such, misconduct is a priority for this government, as indeed it is for the police.

A key strand of the government's Safer Streets mission is to increase public confidence in policing and the wider criminal justice system. Since 2017, the College of Policing has operated a police barred list and advisory list, which ensures that those officers who are dismissed by a police force in England and Wales are prevented from just joining another force. Such individuals have no place in policing. The Bill extends this approach, ensuring that officers dismissed disciplinary proceedings from the National Crime Agency and other specialist police forces cannot be re-employed by another force.

It is vital that the system of police accountability commands the confidence both of the public and the police. As a society, we rely on the professionalism and bravery of firearms officers who put their own lives at risk to keep us all safe. Thankfully, the occasions where the police have to use lethal force in this country are few and far between, but when they do so, it is entirely right that officers are accountable for their actions. But those accountability arrangements must be proportionate, timely and fair to all concerned.

Regrettably, this is currently not the case. So the measures proposed in the bill, we will improve the timeliness and appropriateness of investigations by the Independent Office for Police Conduct and the rights of victims. That said, if firearms officers are charged with offences relating to and committed during their duties that protect them from violent reprisals by establishing a presumption of anonymity in criminal proceedings up to the point of sentence. My Lords, the public rightly wants to see crime solved and offenders brought to justice.

And to do this, the police must have the necessary tools to do their job. So if someone has their mobile phone stolen and the victim can trace its whereabouts, this bill ensures that the police have powers to enter premises quickly if necessary, without a warrant to recover electronically tracked stolen goods. It's also vital that police powers keep in step with the march of technology. In other respects, evidence of criminality is no longer routinely stored on a computer hard drive.

It is instead held remotely in the cloud. This bill clarifies the circumstances in which law enforcement agencies can access such information, subject to strong safeguards, as they investigate offences ranging from child sexual abuse to fraud and terrorism, thereby protecting the public and our borders. The bill also ensures that law enforcement agencies have the necessary powers to combat other forms of technology enabled crime, so we're banning the possession and supply of sim farms safe where there are legitimate uses, such as in broadcasting.

And we're giving the police and others the power to suspend IP addresses and domain names used to commit. Fraud or other serious crimes, such as the so-called pimping websites involved in commercial sexual exploitation. Protests. My Lords, the right to peaceful protest is fundamental to our vibrant democracy. But in facilitating peaceful protest, the police also have a duty to uphold the rights of others, not to be harassed or intimidated, and to go about their daily lives without serious disruption.

The bill ensures that the police have the powers they need to protect places of worship from intimidatory, intimidatory processes, and it also protects specified war and other memorials, including the cenotaph on the statue of Winston Churchill in Parliament Square that have been the target of protest action. A new targeted offence of concealing identity at designated protests will strengthen police powers to require the removal of face coverings at protests, where violence or other criminality either has occurred or is likely to occur.

The precious right to engage in peaceful protest and the equally precious entitlement to freedom of speech does not extend to threatening or abusing others, all the more so whether those being threatened or abused or emergency workers. The law already recognises that racially or religiously motivated threats and abuse should attract tougher penalties, but these currently do not apply where the behaviour takes place in a person's private home. So police, firefighters, ambulance staff when they're attending someone's home, for example, in response to a 909 call, have no choice but to remain and to act.

So the bill closes the loophole in the law so that anyone who threatens or abuses an emergency worker because of their race or their religion within a private dwelling, will be liable for the higher maximum penalties. Such hate crimes would attract. Where the conduct takes place in a public place. I now turn to counter-terrorism. We must also make sure that counter-terrorism powers reflect evolving threats, ensuring that operational and operational partners have the tools they need to keep the public safe.

Part 14 of the bill delivers on several recommendations made by the Independent Reviewer of Terrorism legislation, Jonathan Hall KC. He has identified the need for a new diversion order in response to the increasing number of young people who are the subject of counter-terrorism investigations. The Youth Diversion Order provided for in part 14 will be a new civil order which will enable the police to intervene earlier to prevent young people engaging in terrorism and divert them from the criminal justice system.

Finally, my Lords, in addition to the three new measures which the government will be seeking to add to the bill to which I have already referred, we will also be tabling amendments to apply various further provisions in the Bill to Scotland and or Northern Ireland. These amendments are being brought forward at the request of the Scottish Government and the relevant Northern Ireland departments. My Lords, this government was elected to deliver change. Change that will reverse the decline in neighbourhood policing, change that will tackle the epidemic of violence against women and girls, and the epidemic of knife crime.

This bill will help deliver that change by cracking down on antisocial behaviour, making our town centres safer. Building trust in the police and clearing our streets of knives and protecting our children from sexual abuse. Criminal exploitation, online harms and safeguarding women and girls from stalkers and sexual predators. These are the purposes behind this bill, I beg to move.

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Ahead. Questions of this will be now. Read a.
13:05
Lord Davies of Gower Portrait Lord Davies of Gower (Conservative)
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Second time. My Lords, it's a pleasure to open

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My Lords, it's a pleasure to open this debate on behalf of His Majesty's. Official Opposition. And it will come as no.

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And it will come as no. Surprise to noble Lords on the government frontbench that we on these benches broadly support this these benches broadly support this Bill. It will be no surprise, because large parts of it are a copy Conservative.

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Government's Criminal Justice. Bill. From the provisions on anti-social behaviour to the new offences of cooking, the duty to report child sexual abuse and the report child sexual abuse and the new protest and public order offences, this government are continuing the work we were doing continuing the work we were doing to. Strengthen the criminal justice system. This is of course very welcome, but it does mean that all

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welcome, but it does mean that all is plain. It does not mean that all is plain sailing. The feeling amongst.

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The feeling amongst. The British public is that crime has been increasing, even though overall rates of crime since 2010 overall rates of crime since 2010 have fallen. The crime survey for England and Wales for the year ending March 2025 shows that there were 9.4 million incidents of headline crime, although this headline crime, although this represents a 7% rise from the previous year. The ONS state that this is entirely due to a 31% this is entirely due to a 31% increase in fraud.

Undoubtedly a significant factor in this overall significant factor in this overall feeling of pessimism is because of the increase in more visible crimes that impact people's daily lives shoplifting, phone theft, graffiti, vandalism, fare evasion, and drug vandalism, fare evasion, and drug use are highly visible crimes that leave people feeling unsafe in their daily lives. Shoplifting, for example, has risen by 20% in the year from 2024 to 2025. The National Police Chiefs Council has pointed to an estimated 1.2 billion shortfall in police funding.

The Chair of the NPCC has said the funding settlement of the spending review will cover little more than police pay rises. Chief Constable Paul Sanford has warned the government will find it incredibly difficult to meet the Neighbourhood Policing pledge with this funding settlement. The Metropolitan Police have already announced they will have to cut 1700 staff, scrap their dedicated anti-social behaviour officers and close down half of the front desks in stations across London. And this strikes at the heart of a wider principle this, this Crime and Policing Bill, which runs to over 200 clauses and over 20 schedules, actually going to reduce crime on the streets of this country.

In some ways it might, but in many others, unless coupled with serious improvements in enforcement and police action, it may very well not. So, turning to the bill, the government has in fact committed three crimes of commission and two crimes of omission in this bill. And I'll start with the crimes of Commission. The government's 2024 election manifesto promise to introduce new respect orders with the aim to stamp out issues such as public drinking and drug use. So the government comes armed with a noble cause.

But all it takes is to that all it takes is to scratch just below the surface to see that these respect orders are little more than smoke and mirrors. What this bill does is to insert a new part before part one of the Anti-social Behaviour, Crime Policing Act 2014, created in respect orders. Then it converts what are currently anti-social behaviour injunctions into youth injunctions rather than giving the police, local authorities and the courts tough new powers to tackle anti-social behaviour, as the government claims, there are said simply renaming the currently existing injunctions and creating new orders which are the same in all but name.

The anti-social behaviour injunctions we introduced as part of my Noble friend Baroness May of Maiden Heads efforts to streamline the powers available to authorities to deal with criminal and challenging behaviour. As she noted a Second Reading of that bill under the previous government, Labour government, over nine anti-social behaviour laws were passed, creating 19 separate powers. The Anti-social behaviour, Crime and Policing Act 24 consolidated those into six powers that had a purpose. I cannot see what this government's new respect orders will add to this arsenal.

Secondly, the repeal of section 22 A of the Magistrates Court Act 1980. This provision states that shoplifting of goods with a value of less than £200, or to only be tried summarily in a magistrates court. There has been much, much information. A misinformation about this provision, which was brought forward by the last Conservative government. The Labour manifesto, called this an effective immunity for some shoplifting. The line, which has been parroted by Labour ministers ever since. However, the government's policy paper on the bill, published on Gov.uk calls it perceived immunity, and I think that sums up the bizarre nature of the criticism.

I want to be absolutely clear anyone claiming that trying trying low value shoplifting in a magistrates court is granting criminals immunity is wrong and misleading the public. There is absolutely no reason why theft under £200 cannot be tried summarily. I need not remind the House, full of eminent lawyers, as it is, that a person can still be sentenced for up to six months imprisonment and issued with a fine if found guilty in a summary trial. Six months imprisonment is clearly not immunity.

What it does do is clear the already clogged up crime courts and the place to prosecute more serious cases. That does not mean that thefts of under £200 from shops do not impact on shopkeepers, nor that they should not be investigated. But there is nothing wrong with having a bit more summary justice in this country. It permits cases to be tried and discharge more quickly and more efficiently, rather than risking long and drawn out Crown Court cases that last for months, if not years.

If the police are not investigating such offences, then that is an issue with the operation of policing, not the law. I will now turn to clauses 107 or 108. These were inserted into the bill of report stage and the other place, and as such have not had as much scrutiny, perhaps, as they ought to. The 17th report and the Constitution Committee of your Lordships' House has drawn attention to these clauses for the uncertain scope of the new offences, and the use of highly subjective terminology.

Clause 107 creates a new offence of using threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour towards an emergency worker that is racially or religiously hostile. Clause one of eight creates the offence of using threatening or abusive words or behaviour that are likely to cause an emergency worker harassment, alarm or distress. These offences are very similar to the already existing offences under section four and five of the Public Order Act 1986. The key difference is that these new offences can be committed in a private dwelling, whereas those in the Public Order Act cannot.

And it is understandable why the government might wish to press ahead with these new offences. We all wish to see our emergency workers protected, but it is far from certain that creating two new speech related offences will offer emergency workers any greater protection in reality. Clause 107 involves the criminalisation of insults and clause whatever eight uses the term distress. Both are highly subjective, thereby leaving people open to prosecution on undefined terms. We already know this is an acute problem in this country.

There exists a litany of cases whereby people have been arrested and prosecuted for speech offences. The continual misuse of non hate, non crime, hate incidents and the probably irresponsible policing of tweets and online comments has had a chilling effect on free speech. If anything, we should be reviewing and removing barriers to freedom of expression and speech, not expanding those limitations. I therefore echo the comments of the Constitution Committee in relation to clauses 107 or 8, and calling the government to heed their advice that these clauses should be drawn far more narrowly.

I am sure that much of the debate in this bill will comprise of what noble Lords deemed to be omissions and missed opportunities, and I have time to only mention a few of those. But I do give notice to the noble Lord, the Minister, that at committee stage I will be rising, raising many more. Given that this bill in many ways mirrors the previous government's Criminal Justice bill, it was surprising to see that there has been no inclusion bar two clauses of the measures surrounding the replacement of the Vagrancy Act, the previous government plan to repeal the act and replace it with a new framework around nuisance, begging and rough sleeping.

If the government are to commence the repeal of the Vacancy Act, but not institute further powers to replace that act, there may be a gap in law. I would appreciate it if the Minister could perhaps comment on why the government have not included these measures in the bill. Furthermore, it does not include the previous government's plans to impose tougher penalties on those convicted of shoplifting offences on more than three occasions. Those provisions would require the court to impose a community order, including a curfew, exclusion or electronic whereabouts monitoring condition or a combination of such conditions.

Given them the government's tough talk and bearing down on retail crime, it is more than a little confusing why they have not included such measures in the bill. So I will end where I began. Criminal justice is not simply about laws this Parliament passes. We can continually create new criminal offences. We can pass as many new laws as we like, but until we get a grip on the enforcement of those laws, we will never tackle the scourge of criminality. The government has been talking tough on crime, but this must now be met with corresponding action.

corresponding action.
13:15
Baroness Doocey Portrait Baroness Doocey (Liberal Democrat)
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My Lords, I thank the Minister for her introduction and I am grateful to the many organisations who provided briefings in too many areas of crime and policing were failing. The people who most need protection. Children and vulnerable

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adults exposed to predators, shopkeepers bearing the cost of unchecked theft. Farmers shouldering the.

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Farmers shouldering the. Consequences of criminals stealing expensive. Farm equipment to order.

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Billion in policing. This year. The reality is that little of this will reach frontline little of this will reach frontline services. The National Police Chiefs Council notes that a quarter of this sum will be returned to the Treasury

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sum will be returned to the Treasury Insurance. With the rest already committed to fund pay, awards.

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to fund pay, awards. And service debts. Because a. Decade of. Underfunding has forced police to borrow. Just to.

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Just to. Maintain their. Dilapidated buildings. And antiquated. It already.

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And antiquated. It already. Gaps in children's services, police.

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Into roles they are. Ill equipped to fill. So in scrutinising this bill. Will have to scrutinising this bill. Will have to ensure that we do not set the police up to fail. Take drug testing.

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The bill expands the range of triggers for police. To be able to trust someone for drugs. But makes no provision.

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drugs. But makes no provision. At all for more drug testing centres. Or forensic resources.

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Or forensic resources. That must. Change because drugs. Are deeply intertwined with serious violence.

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serious violence. And linked to more than. Half. Of all homicides. Drug related deaths. Have doubled since.

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Have doubled since. 2012, and about. 70% of. Thefts. And cases of domestic violence.

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And cases of domestic violence. Are driven by addiction. Yet more.

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Yet more. Than. 27,000 suspected drug. investigation.

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investigation. Largely because we. Lack enough. Trained forensic specialists. If these delays and.

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these delays and. The patchy availability of treatment programmes. Are not addressed.

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The measures in the bill will become irrelevant. In a similar. Vein, there are a number of.

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Vein, there are a number of. Provisions in the bill that are welcome in principle. But need. Careful scrutiny in practice.

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Careful scrutiny in practice. Among those are new offences such as. Assaulting retail. Workers and the proposed.

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Workers and the proposed. Respect to orders, which, while well-intentioned, risk duplicating existing. Laws and further.

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Straining a justice system already operating. Way beyond capacity.

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Way beyond capacity. My Lords, Liberal Democrats have long argued that neighbourhood. Policing is the most.

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Effective way to address these. Problems before. They take root. The role of local officers is

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crucial. They know. Where the domestic. kids. Are left home alone, and they

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Are left home alone, and they know where the drug dens operate. And effective.

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Neighbourhood policing depends on familiarity, consistency and. Trust. Qualities that can only be built up over time.

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up over time. We cannot keep. Parachuting in. New officers and expect these

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New officers and expect these relationships to flourish. That is why we have proposed legal minimum

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policing. Teams are maintained at the level necessary. To sustain long. Relationships and.

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Relationships and. A sense. Of safety among communities. That

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sense of safety is especially. Important for young people. At the moment, 1. In.

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In. 3 young people. Report that they don't feel safe in their communities, the dangerous and

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often. Tragic result. Is that they carry weapons. We therefore backed proposals. To.

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Tighten the rules around the online sale and delivery of weapons,

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and we will bring forward amendments to give legislative. Life to even more.

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Of the claimant. Review's recommendations. I now want. To turn to police and criminal justice reform.

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justice reform. Very few people realise. That 90%, yes. 90% of crime is

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That 90%, yes. 90% of crime is now digitally enabled. That means. Chief constables must be given

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Chief constables must be given the. Flexibility to. Decide the right. Mix of. Traditional police officers. And.

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Specialist staff needed in their. Forces. Because digital skill is. Very. Often now.

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Often now. More highly. Valued than. Physical prowess, and recruitment should reflect that.

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should reflect that. Meanwhile, training has to move with the times. A third of.

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A third of. All police officers now have. Under five years experience.

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Under five years experience. Yet inspection after inspection exposes serious. Flaws in the training provided

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Flaws in the training provided poor professional development, combined with infrequent. Updates on new. Laws.

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Laws. And procedures, mean many. Frontline officers have outdated skills. Leading to.

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Uneven standards and a workforce that lacks the. Confidence to use their powers.

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Confidence to use their powers. With 94% of reported offences, UN's unresolved new. Laws mean little.

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Laws mean little. If officers aren't equipped. To enforce them. So we.

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So we. Will push for the first national review of Police. Training since

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review of Police. Training since 2018. But reforming. Policing alone. Is like fixing the lock on a door that's completely rotten.

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that's completely rotten. It simply beggars belief. That at the end.

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Of March 2025, there were 310,000. Cases outstanding in magistrates courts.

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magistrates courts. That serious offences such as rape. Are taking more. Than two.

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Years to come to trial. With offenders. Back out on the streets on bail,

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Back out on the streets on bail, perpetrators. Who are convicted of crime. Often pass through prisons.

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Often pass through prisons. Without any kind of rehabilitation. Now, let me

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rehabilitation. Now, let me highlight some serious concerns on civil liberties. In clause 138. The move.

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The move. To give police. Automatic access to driving licence data for any law enforcement

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purpose, not just driving. Offences, marks a major expansion

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Offences, marks a major expansion from current practice. The Home Secretary need only consult police with no full parliamentary oversight with no full parliamentary oversight when drafting these regulations. While the bill does not mention

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facial recognition, other ministers. Say there are no. Plans to use DVLA. Data this way.

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Plans to use DVLA. Data this way. The National Police Chiefs Council, in a written submission to the Home Affairs Committee, stated that Affairs Committee, stated that police chiefs are seeking access to the DVLA database for facial the DVLA database for facial recognition searches and proposals by the previous government would by the previous government would have enabled this. To do this would put more than 50 million innocent people in a perpetual digital line up. This poses profound risks, particularly for people.



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particularly for people. Of colour. And minority groups. In 1923, in

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And minority groups. In 1923, in the UK, Big Brother Watch found that 89% of police facial recognition alerts wrongly identified members of the public as people of interest. So we will vigorously press the government to ensure DVLA access is necessary, proportionate and set out clearly in primary legislation restricted to tackling serious crime or public safety threats. And it is not just about facial recognition, but a whole range of biometrics, some of which are only now in development.

I am particularly concerned about the need to futureproof the bill against tomorrow's technologies. New digital tools such as remote data extraction, advanced surveillance systems, predictive analytics and

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wearable sensor technology. Will. Soon reach the UK market. The

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Soon reach the UK market. The bill must be capable of evolving this technology, ensuring that this technology, ensuring that perpetrator protections for citizens remain robust as new digital tools remain robust as new digital tools appear. In conclusion, public confidence in policing is at an all confidence in policing is at an all time low. This may not be fair. I don't think it is, but it is the don't think it is, but it is the reality. New duties imposed by Parliament must therefore be matched by new investment.

We must deliver policing that keeps people safe without edging towards a without edging towards a surveillance state. This bill gives us a great opportunity to strike us a great opportunity to strike that balance. But more power without resources or safeguards risks serious consequences. So let us ensure this bill empowers the police, protects freedom, and police, protects freedom, and prepares the service for a fast moving technological world. Because

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moving technological world. Because only then will it truly deliver safer communities. There. Yeah.

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There. Yeah. And my Lords, I. Rise to. Broadly support the Bill. I think there's an awful lot in it that is to be commended. I, I wouldn't agree with everything that the Liberal Democrats have said about access to
13:26
Lord Hogan-Howe Portrait Lord Hogan-Howe (Crossbench)
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more data and certainly not facial recognition, but I think there's some steps in the right direction. But of course, the nature of the But of course, the nature of the Second Reading is to highlight the things that you would have preferred were in it, rather than probably the things that are in it. My first things that are in it. My first point is going to be about the missed opportunity I generally feel to set out a strategic direction, to set out a strategic direction, partly for the criminal justice system and certainly for the police.

We've not embedded anything about We've not embedded anything about prevention as a strategic direction in the way that the fire brigades have. Now, we've not said anything have. Now, we've not said anything much about police professionalism and how that might be developed. And finally, the use of technology and finally, the use of technology and how we set a strategic framework in which that will develop. So that, I think, is a genuine missed think, is a genuine missed opportunity. The four areas that I just want to highlight that I will be pushing in committee stage for some recognition now, first is around firearms officers.

First of around firearms officers. First of all, I acknowledge that the developments around the anonymity of officers is welcome, although I confess that on occasions I have confess that on occasions I have thought that actually this should be named because accountability is very important. But I think this important. But I think this development is a good one and I support it. But this group of brave support it. But this group of brave men and women who 3500 of them, who protect 69 million of us, and the only ones who can go forward on our behalf and deal with the people they have to deal with, I'm afraid, are moment.



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This week alone, the officer in the case who shot and killed the case who shot and killed Jermaine Baker in 2015 this week was told he had no case to answer in a misconduct process. Ten years. Never misconduct process. Ten years. Never a risk of a criminal charge. But ten years later, that can't be right. So it's something about timeliness. And it's something about timeliness. And but I would also say the law ought to of a more generous generosity and to of a more generous generosity and sympathy to the officer in the first place.

We do that for householders who protect themselves and kill. who protect themselves and kill. Someone in their home. They are a unique group. So was this unique

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group got not got any similar protection, which is. A. Higher bar before prosecution is considered, not immunity. No one considered, not immunity. No one argues that accountability is essential, but I really think something has got to happen in this area.

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area. And as yet, it hasn't. My second area is around cycling. Now I'm trying to get some amendments into this bill, because I think it's time that cyclists had

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think it's time that cyclists had more accountability to and. Ensured an insurance wouldn't. Be a bad idea. The opportunity to.

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The opportunity to. Have points on their. Licences if they have. commit. Offences.

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Registration marks to identify them. And even licences for the people who ride them. The public bill's who ride them. The public bill's office told me it's out of scope. I can't understand this because obviously there are amendments about

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obviously there are amendments about dangerous cycling. Which the. Government has brought forward, which I support. But it'd be no use having those amendments if you can't

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identify. The person who did it. So I suggest that there is a possibility to consider future developments in this bill. My third point is around.

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point is around. The suicide of police officers. The Police Federation are concerned that the number of people, police officers and staff who are police officers and staff who are committing suicide over the years is increasing. Now is real difficult to get hold of the data either about get hold of the data either about those who have committed suicide or those who have attempted it. The recently had a survey in which only recently had a survey in which only 41 forces and replied to the biggest force in the country, but the biggest did not reply.

So they're biggest did not reply. So they're struggling to get hold of the data, so they would like to see a legal duty to ensure that this data is, first of all, collected to see if there's a problem. What is it, how big is it and where the themes are big is it and where the themes are that might enable more prevention to take place. And my final point is take place. And my final point is just about the indirect consequences of historical weapons around offensive weapons.

Lord Lucas has

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done some work around this. But I think there's more to. Do to make sure that people who

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have. Historical weapons are not captured in the offensive weapon debate, and also the couriers who. Carry these things are now.

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Carry these things are now. Withdrawn from the market, meaning that there's very few people who are carrying out neither weapons or things like. Scissors.

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Scissors. Which means that we. Will have. A real problem soon if we don't consider that.

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Indirect impact. My Lords, I commend this government's mission to achieve safer streets and applaud, particularly the aim of halving both particularly the aim of halving both knife crime and violence against women and girls within a decade. This bill touches on a wide range of complex and important issues, and I want to just raise a few here. want to just raise a few here. Reporting of Charles sexual abuse and the decriminalisation of and the decriminalisation of abortion are of particular interest to my colleagues on these benches.

Indeed, noble Lords may have seen Indeed, noble Lords may have seen the church's statement in response to the debate in the other place on the decriminalisation of women the decriminalisation of women seeking abortion. Fundamental reform to this country's abortion laws to this country's abortion laws ought to merit its own parliamentary process, we would say. And we on
13:31
Lord Bishop of Derby Portrait The Lord Bishop of Derby (Bishops)
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these benches are keen to continue engaging with government to ensure care filled, careful consideration care filled, careful consideration is given to support all those facing such a painful decision. I declare such a painful decision. I declare interest as Chair of the Board of Trustees at the Children's Society, and I am proud of their unwavering and I am proud of their unwavering commitment to protect children from harm, including child sexual abuse, harm, including child sexual abuse, and to enable them to flourish.

I am pleased that the bill includes a standalone offence of trial child criminal exploitation, CCTV and I welcome the government's commitment welcome the government's commitment to define CCE for police, but also support calls to bring forward a statutory definition of CCS e on the face of the bill that's directed at all organisations supporting children to be supported by a children to be supported by a robust, comprehensive implementation package with adequate funding and training. I note that the bill before us risks criminalising children forced or coerced into criminal activity.

I think we need to take care that children are to take care that children are exempted in the work of this bill from any offence of commissioning, cooking or coerced internal concealment, recognising here as elsewhere, children as victims, not perpetrators. The Right Reverend Prelate, the Bishop of Gloucester, is also following this bill and is unable to be here today with her. I would make the case for recognising so-called honour base abuse as an aggravating factor in sentencing, introducing a new offence where victims die of suicide following sustained patterns of coercive control and abuse.

Statutory defences for victims and survivors of domestic abuse who are accused of offending and removing parental rights of individuals convicted of child sexual offences. We have been reminded today that recent terrible events mean many are fearful when approaching a place of worship, or indeed going about their everyday lives. The Right Reverend Prelate, the Bishop of Manchester, who can't be in his place today, wishes to engage with the elements of this Bill, offering practical guidance for police both to enable expressions of public protest while also preventing intimidation and harassment.

He also looks forward to working with noble Lords to ensure that this bill offers stronger safeguards against the discriminatory treatment of Romani, Gypsy, Roma and Irish Travellers. Noble Lords will be aware that the Right Reverend Prelate, the Bishop of Sheffield, has recently been nominated to Chair the Orgreave Inquiry into the events of the 18th of June, 1984. My colleagues on these benches and I will continue to engage the government on public order policing measures. Finally, I welcome the principle of youth diversion orders for those under 2022.

This bill will need to strike a delicate balance. Overzealous restrictions on movement and social contacts under such orders may lead to yet more disenfranchisement and distrust. My Lord, this is a challenging time and the obstacles are real, and I therefore commit myself and those on these benches to work with the noble laws, to think

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creatively, compassionately and constructively in our collective scrutiny of this bill. Then,

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Then. My Lords. Yet again, we are being. Asked to.

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Digest a lengthy Criminal Justice Bill, which covers far too many diverse areas of conduct. A

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diverse areas of conduct. A bill. Has no theme. Before the bill began its progress through the other place, the government proclaimed that it contained 35 headline measures and contained 35 headline measures and Andy Slaughter, the chairman of the Justice Select Committee, said the
13:34
Lord Garnier Portrait Lord Garnier (Conservative)
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bill introduces 27 new criminal offences. I think he was congratulating the government. Had I been discussing the Criminal Justice Bill, that's to say the bill that my Noble friend Lord Davis referred to, which fell at the last election, I would have I would have said of that what I now say of this bill, it covers too many subjects. It makes criminal activities that are already criminal. It has 430 pages. It has. 203 clauses in 21 schedules. Let's look at it.

It's like a telephone book.

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It's a catalogue, in. My view, of early day motions rather than a practical answer to rather than a practical answer to the problems it seeks to identify. It reminds me of the Criminal Justice Act 2009, which included Justice Act 2009, which included provisions, amongst other things, for the appointment of senior police officers, prostitution and lap officers, prostitution and lap dancing. The supply of alcohol to children, gang related violence, aviation security, border controls and expedition. But more besides. Many of the measures in this bill, Many of the measures in this bill, I'm sure are on their face.

Were they, and assuming they're not already criminal offences? No doubt a good measures taken from the Criminal Justice Bill. But passing Criminal Justice Bill. But passing laws is not of itself a solution to an actual or perceived problem. an actual or perceived problem. Movement is not productivity. Too often, governments of all political persuasions think that the sun, that persuasions think that the sun, that standing vigorous is a substitute standing vigorous is a substitute for action. Between 1815 and 1914, remarkably few laws, about 15 or 20 statutes were passed that affected statutes were passed that affected the criminal law.

Several of them are still in force, in whole or in are still in force, in whole or in part. When Tony Blair was Prime Minister between 1997 and 2007, over 50 criminal law statutes were enacted. The Criminal Justice Act of 2003, another doorstop of a bill, even repealed earlier sections of earlier Acts of Parliament passed after 1997, which hadn't even been implemented. I would ask written questions in the other place asking how many criminal law provisions had been implemented, how many had been repealed before implementation, and how many had been brought into force.

And the answer I used to get with roughly one third had been implemented, one third had not been implemented, and one third had been repealed before implementation or soon afterwards. Now, I'm not making a politically antagonistic point. I'm simply pointing out that the early 21st century legislative equivalent of dreadnought building is ineffective unless the government, any government, does more than pass laws and pat itself on the back. The court system is under strain. The police are under strain, our prisons are under strain.

And yet we blithely pile more and often repetitive legislation on them for political effect, without calculating whether the new provisions already exist or can be managed within the present creaking criminal justice system. The Lord Chancellor recently had promised 1250 new Crown Court sitting days, with the Crown Court trial backlog leading to serious criminal trials now being scheduled for 2028 or 2029. And with literally hundreds of courtrooms unused, 1250 additional days is insignificant. A senior Crown Court judge recently told me that he could use those days in just his own court centre.

The Home Secretary's Second Reading speech in the other place in March amounted, if I may say so, to empty jargon interrupted by loyal backbenchers reading out interventions drafted by her spouse or by government whips and by the opposition, complaining she was ignoring the previous government's achievements or claiming that they were her own. This is not a satisfactory way to amend the law, still less create new laws. Of course, my Lords, this bill will either in this version or some other version of it, pass into law and the government will proclaim its enactment as one of its great achievements at the next election.

In the meanwhile, the IP scandal continues despite the heroic efforts of the noble Lord, Lord Timpson and other noble lords from across the House to release the ghastly grip of its talons around the lives and hopes of those hundreds of prisoners still in prison well beyond their tariff. My Lords, governments and ministers say a lot. The voters

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watch carefully and remember what they actually do. Lords. As.

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My. Noble friend, the Minister has so clearly set out, there is much to
13:38
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon Portrait Baroness Royall of Blaisdon (Labour)
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clearly set out, there is much to welcome in this bill to improve the law where needed to make us safer, and I look forward to following it.

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Closely. And to the noble Lord, Lord Garnier. I would say. That. I also. Look.

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Look. implementation. When it. Is an act. It will have a.

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It will have a. Profound impact on the lives of many, including the most. Vulnerable. And I. Particularly support the clauses

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Particularly support the clauses relating to counter violence against children, women and girls. Following children, women and girls. Following the report of the Independent Inquiry. Into Child. Sexual Abuse,

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Inquiry. Into Child. Sexual Abuse, of. Time limitations in. Historical cases of child sex.

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Historical cases of child sex. Sexual abuse with clause 82. The importance. Of this clause was brought home

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Of this clause was brought home to me by a very courageous survivor who, following years of sexual abuse

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who, following years of sexual abuse incapacitating. Mental illness. Of which the origin. Was. That trauma.

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That trauma. The last government. Refused to act on this specific issue, so I am proud that this government has. Conceded the

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government has. Conceded the fundamental legal principle. However, as. Drafted. It. Has limited benefit to those.

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Has limited benefit to those. Who have fought for the change and whose. fight. And.

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And. I would ask the noble Baroness, the Minister. To discuss this. With. Me further. Together with survivors.

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The IX recommendation. Should be adopted. Without change. Or qualification. However, the

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Or qualification. However, the clause adds a new substantial prejudice to historical cases. Which creates.

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Which creates. hurdle. For survivors. As I. Understand it, the IX's.

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Understand it, the IX's. Final report did not include any changes regarding. The introduction.

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The introduction. Of the substantial prejudice. Its inclusion in this. Bill could.

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Be interpreted. As reintroducing the. Status quo. The impact of narrowing the court's focus.

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court's focus. Focus to a fair trial with the burden on defendants. Should make. overall.

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overall. But ambiguity. Remains around. What. Counts. As count as claims

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Counts. As count as claims arising. Subsection three B and three C of. Section 11ZB. In clause. 82 of

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Section 11ZB. In clause. 82 of the Crime and Policing Bill introduced the novel legal idea of introduced the novel legal idea of substantial prejudice adopted from Scottish legislation, but the sub clauses are.

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Unjustified as there is no provision for real litigation in these cases in England and Wales. I would suggest that.

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would suggest that. If cases fail in civil courts, the legislation has. Failed. In its aims and. These subsections should.

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Be removed. The testimony. Of witnesses. To the ICA.

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To the ICA. Shows institutional. Discouragement and the extended, often ineradicable psychological.

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often ineradicable psychological. Harm of. Abuse, underscoring the need for these reforms to remove barriers.

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One witness. Said to me, and I quote. Attending the ICA was. The second most dramatic.

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The second most dramatic. Thing in my. lasted. Seven years. So far.

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So far. If subsection three b and subsection. Three c remain, then preparing

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for a court case which could be dismissed on these grounds would be as dramatic. As.

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That, and with as little personal benefit. End of quote. While survivors are relieved that through. This.

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This. in. abuse. Will be abolished for better

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Will be abolished for better access to justice. The substantial. need. To be deleted.

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To be deleted. My Lords. The clauses on the management of. Sex offenders. Are. Hugely important for the victims of violence against women and girls,

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of violence against women and girls, and with the long term interest in government. Is both.

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Seeking to implement its manifesto commitments and to respond to the invaluable super. Complaint made by the. Suzy

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Lamplugh Trust. Following concerned. I wish will wish to probe.

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I wish will wish to probe. Chapter six. campaigning. On.

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Doorsteps that the new offence of cooking will be. Of great. Benefit. Especially to those living in.

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Especially to those living in. Social housing. Finally, I wholeheartedly support clause 191. On the removal of women from the.

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On the removal of women from the. Criminal law related. To abortion. And I pay tribute to my colleague Tanya.

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Until the LSC. My Lords, I will focus on

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My Lords, I will focus on disorder in public places and spaces, which is having such a detrimental effect on our lives. And detrimental effect on our lives. And in doing so, I will concentrate on clauses 37 and 38 of the bill, which clauses 37 and 38 of the bill, which create a new standalone offence of assault against a retail worker and assault against a retail worker and build on the aggravated offence contained in the police, crime, contained in the police, crime, Sentencing and Courts Act of 2022.

Now I support the new measures. Now I support the new measures. Those two new measures in this bill, I want to see violence against someone doing their job dealt with someone doing their job dealt with seriously. No one should be subject to random attacks whilst at work. And I should declare as a vice Chair of the customer service All-party group. I do not want people who care deeply about giving great customer service to leave their jobs or to deter anyone from taking up this kind of employment, which is both essential and valuable to us in so many ways.

And I will say more about how in a moment. But first, the Institute for Customer Services tracking survey shows violent abuse against all frontline service workers continues to rise. That means public transport workers, those who work in the hospitality, training, people who work in post offices and banks, delivery drivers and even utility engineers working on the streets. That is why the aggravated offence in the 22 Crime Act covers anyone, not just retail staff, providing a public facing service or doing a public facing job.

So can I ask the minister when he comes to wind up, why this bill's stronger? Measures only cover retail workers? My Lords, all the people who do these public facing jobs matter not just because we need the services they provide. They matter because more often than not, they are the responsible person in charge of public spaces and places. So they don't just need protection, they need our support to uphold our common standards, which are so important to maintain good order, and a civil society, which means we must show respect for the authority of their roles in public settings, whether that's authority, whether their authority in such situations is formal or informal.

And we need to give the people who do these jobs the recognition they deserve. So they discharge their responsibilities well. My Lords, if we are to prevent violent criminal behaviour in public spaces becoming normalised, we must work together to tackle the low levels of disorder and disrespect that we see on our streets, on public transport, in shops and elsewhere, which causes to feel so despondent, litter dropping feet on seats, watching videos or listening to music on our phones without headphones, queue jumping fare dodging graffiti, police presence on our streets is important.

Rapid response from the police to actual crimes is vital that we can't keep creating new
13:47
Baroness Stowell of Beeston Portrait Baroness Stowell of Beeston (Conservative)
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criminal offences and expect the police to deal with everything that has gone wrong in society. We as has gone wrong in society. We as leaders, whether political, religious, business, public service religious, business, public service or union, must use our authority to set, promote and honour the standards we know are vital for a standards we know are vital for a healthy society, yet too often now treat as unimportant. My Lords, I treat as unimportant. My Lords, I would support expanding clauses 37 and 38 to more than just retail and 38 to more than just retail workers for the reasons I have given.

But I would ask all the businesses, unions and trade bodies who understandably want more legal protection for their workers to think about what I've said. think about what I've said. Likewise, we as legislators must do more than the easy bit of making new more than the easy bit of making new laws. As my Noble friend Lord Garnier said, tackling crime and disorder through better policing and disorder through better policing and stronger sentencing is important, but on its own it's not enough. We but on its own it's not enough.

We need to share and promote what the good citizens of this country want and expect from each other in our and expect from each other in our shared spaces. That's how we will create the right conditions for people to support each other, and together make it harder for people to behave badly and do wrong.

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Yeah. My Lords. This bill has the.

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Potential to transform how we protect children from the devastating. Crime of. Child sexual abuse.

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Child sexual abuse. So I welcome mandatory reporting. It will be a historic step made
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Baroness Benjamin Portrait Baroness Benjamin (Liberal Democrat)
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It will be a historic step made possible thanks to the survivors who bravely shared their testimony to the Independent inquiry into child sexual abuse. Too many children have been failed because adults in positions of trust and institutions who employed them protected themselves over children who needed it. But I fear that mandatory reporting will not be enough to create the culture of safeguarding this country so desperately needs. All those who work with children, teachers, healthcare or social workers have responsibility in keeping children safe from harm, but they must feel confident and have the skills to do so.

But in 2020, the National Review into Child Sexual Abuse in Family Environment highlighted that many practitioners lacked the knowledge, skill and confidence to talk about sexual abuse with children. That is why Barnardo's and I declare an interest as Vice president, and many other children's charities are calling for the introduction of clear guidance and training to accompany this essential new duty. Mandated reporters must be confident in their responsibilities and clear on what they should do if they suspect abuse.

So training will support professionals to identify and act on the signs and symptoms of abuse, as well as to respond effectively. In cases where children do disclose or we risk more children falling through the cracks and abuse go unrecognised. My Lords, there must also be accountability for both professional and civil mandated reporters who fail to report, as well as criminal convictions for any individual or institution that deliberately conceal the abuse. The Centre of Expertise on Child Sexual Abuse, which was hosted by Barnardos, has highlighted how such cover ups have only served to increase a survivor's sense of betrayal.

Never again should
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