Russian Drones: Violation of Polish Airspace

Wednesday 10th September 2025 Commons Chamber

13:33

[James Cartlidge (South Suffolk) (Con)]

(Urgent Question): To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he will make a statement on the violation of Poland’s airspace by Russian drones.

[Mr Speaker]

Welcome to your new job, Minister.

[The Minister for the Armed Forces (Al Carns)]

This is my first UQ in the House, and this is a very serious topic to be discussing. Last night, as we know, Poland shot down multiple Russian drones that had entered its airspace. Poland stated that the drones were part of a co-ordinated Russian attack on targets across the border in Ukraine. The Ukrainians are subject to a barbaric attack every evening, but this is an unprecedented violation of Polish airspace; indeed, it went deep enough for Warsaw airport to be closed. I thank the Polish and NATO air defence forces for responding rapidly and effectively to protect the alliance. The areas affected were regions on the border of Belarus and Ukraine. Poland temporarily closed its airspace and some airports, and emergency alarms were issued for the regions affected, but airspace and most airports have now reopened.

Russia’s actions are absolutely and utterly reckless, unprecedented and dangerous. This serves to remind us of President Putin’s blatant disregard for peace, and of the constant bombardment that innocent Ukrainians face every day. In response, Poland’s Prime Minister, Donald Tusk, has announced that Poland will invoke NATO article 4, which allows any ally to consult others when it believes that its territorial integrity, political independence or security are threatened. The Prime Minister has been in contact with Prime Minister Tusk to make absolutely crystal clear the UK’s support for Poland, and that we will stand firm in our support for Ukraine. The Defence Secretary is meeting E5 counterparts today, and will discuss what additional support we can provide, including to reinforce Ukraine and strengthen NATO. We stand in full solidarity with our ally Poland.

We condemn this action. We say to Russia: “Your aggression only strengthens the unity of NATO nations. It only strengthens our solidarity in standing with and beside Ukraine. It reminds us that a secure Europe needs a strong Ukraine.” With our allies and partners, and through UK leadership of the coalition of the willing, we will continue to ramp up the pressure on Putin until there is a just and lasting peace.

[James Cartlidge]

Thank you, Mr Speaker, for granting this urgent question. May I begin by expressing our total solidarity with the people of Poland? The Opposition stand shoulder to shoulder with the Government in support of our strong NATO ally. Poland is a great nation, and a great friend of Britain. Our thoughts are with its people, and we fully support all efforts to rally our NATO allies and ensure that Poland’s invocation of article 4 is responded to as swiftly as possible. This is an unprecedented violation of Polish and NATO airspace that must be met with total condemnation and a robust response. So must the latest bombings of Ukraine, as Russia continues to target civilians and conduct an unprovoked war of aggression, without any regard for human life.

What, if any, judgment have the Government been able to form of the precise motivation for this drone incursion? If this was designed to test NATO’s resolve, will Putin not have already seen how strong the resolve is to stand united against this aggression? We understand that Dutch F-35s were directly involved in supporting the Polish military response, and that fighters from other NATO nations may have been scrambled. Is it not sobering that the F-35s from the Netherlands followed us in rotating air support for Poland, so if this incursion had occurred just weeks ago, RAF Typhoons could have been directly involved?

On the specifics of our joint NATO response, can the Minister say more about what invoking article 4 means in practical terms for the UK and our allies, and what the next steps are? Importantly, what discussions have the UK Government had with our US counterparts on these developments? Above all, given that this incident involved the use of lethal Russian drones against a fellow NATO member, what further steps are the Government now considering in order to constrain Russia’s ability to threaten our closest allies, and to provide further support to Poland? Finally, in the light of the Norway deal, the Minister will be aware that one of the largest ever defence export deals concluded under the previous Government was the sale of ground-based air defence to Poland. In the week of DSEI, does that not show why such industrial collaboration with our allies is important, not just economically, but when it comes to defending our close allies?

There are those who may question the nature of the Russian threat or the need to significantly increase defence spending, but these events should leave nobody in any doubt that the threat extends beyond Ukraine, and that we must therefore continue to stand shoulder to shoulder with Ukraine, Poland and all our NATO allies.

[Al Carns]

I thank the hon. Member for his response, and his bipartisan support on this really serious issue. What is NATO article 4? For clarity, article 4 is a consultation mechanism. If an ally perceives that its territorial integrity, political independence or security is threatened, it can invoke article 4. That is what Poland has done. Discussions will then take place in the North Atlantic Council, NATO’s senior political body, in which the UK will, of course, be involved.

I mentioned the status of the attacks. Poland stated that the drones were part of a co-ordinated Russian attack on targets across the border in Ukraine, but that does not in any way, shape or form excuse those attacks. They are an unprecedented violation of Polish airspace on an unprecedented scale.

I agree that our industrial collaboration with our allies and partners is essential, as we and NATO move forward, and as our partners and allies’ relationships move forward, to making sure that we are prepared in every way for an escalation, or an existential crisis, should it come.

In our response to Ukraine, we are doing a huge amount to lead our allies and partners. As we speak, the Secretary of State for Defence is with the E5, talking about the coalition of the willing, and he has talked to Polish representatives already. We are leading the way in that coalition—on its formation, structure and how it will deploy, should it need to, if peace ever comes to Ukraine.

[Derek Twigg (Widnes and Halewood) (Lab)]

I welcome the Minister’s statement. Is this not another example that what Russia really believes in is the complete annihilation of Ukraine? It does not care what collateral damage it does elsewhere. I believe that sending drones across into Poland was a deliberate move by the Russians. I welcome the response from Poland and NATO, but do we not need to talk about ramping up industrial co-operation for Ukraine, so that it gets more and better munitions and equipment more quickly, and ramping up sanctions? With the Budget coming up, we need to consider how we ramp up defence expenditure, and further increase it beyond the recent targets set.

[Al Carns]

I thank my hon. Friend for his question, and for his support for defence. I completely agree that the Ukrainians are undergoing a serious violation of international law by a barbaric and reckless leader in Russia. They are experiencing bombing, drone attacks, ballistic missile attacks, which cannot be heard, subterfuge, sabotage, hostage taking, and the huge, large-scale kidnapping of children. Air raids go off every night in Ukraine, in a way that is reminiscent of world war two. The wailing of those sirens alone will have a psychological impact that will last long after any war finishes.

Why is this happening today? It is because of Putin’s barbaric, unprovoked and illegal invasion of a sovereign state. We must continue to do the maximum to support Ukraine and encourage its allies and partners. We have done a significant amount. The House may recall that at the last Ukraine Defence Contact Group meeting, we launched a 50-day drive to deliver more for Ukraine. Fifty days on, we have 5 million rounds of munitions; 60,000 artillery shells, rockets and missiles; 2,500 uncrewed systems; 30 vehicles; and 200 electronic warfare and defence systems. On top of that, we had a £70 million plan to provide 350 air defence missiles, and, finally, £150 million to provide air defence and artillery. We are at the leading edge, and have been for a long time, in supporting Ukraine, and we will continue to be, long into the future.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Ms Nusrat Ghani)]

I call the Liberal Democrat spokesperson.

[Helen Maguire (Epsom and Ewell) (LD)]

Overnight, Poland faced down an unprecedented violation of NATO and Polish airspace—the latest act of belligerence by a Russian dictator hell-bent on recreating the Russian empire. This is a stark reminder that history cannot repeat itself. The drones were part of Russia’s latest large-scale assault on Ukraine, an assault in which 450 drones were launched. We thank the Polish air force for protecting the NATO alliance, and we stand with our allies. No matter what President Trump believes, it is clear that Putin is not stopping. He is not considering peace; he is testing NATO’s limits. A line has been crossed, and we must collectively stand up to this aggression.

The Government must take tangible action. Will the Minister take forward the Liberal Democrat proposals to end the import of products using Russian oil that have been processed in third countries; stop UK companies shipping or insuring Russian liquefied natural gas; and push for a further cut to the oil price cap? As Tusk said this morning,

“Actions speak louder than words.”

The strongest action we could take would be to seize the frozen Russian assets across the UK. Will the Minister commit to doing that today?

[Al Carns]

I thank the hon. Member for her contribution, and for her support for defence. She brought up a really valuable point: those who do not read history are doomed to repeat it. This was an unprecedented attack, and an unprecedented violation of Polish airspace. We are working exceptionally hard with the Polish to ensure that they, and indeed our broader NATO alliance, have everything they need. We already have significant sanctions on Russia. There is work going on between the Ministry of Defence and the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office looking at how we can move those forward. We will update the House in due course.

[Mr Jonathan Brash (Hartlepool) (Lab)]

The appalling attack on Ukraine and the violation of Polish airspace yesterday simply highlight the increasing and devastating use of drones in modern warfare. I have been contacted by Hartlepool constituents today, expressing their anxiety and fear about what this might mean for our shores. Will the Minister share the Government’s plans to ensure that the UK’s drone and air defence capabilities meet the challenge of the changes we are seeing in modern warfare?

[Al Carns]

I thank my hon. Friend for his contribution. He will know that I am passionate about the need for us to increase our uncrewed systems portfolio. We have already committed, in the defence industrial strategy and the strategic defence review, to create an uncrewed centre of excellence. That will help us to rewrite our doctrine and concept, but also to integrate drones back into the military and ensure we have a high-low mix of fifth and sixth generation capability, massed with low-end uncrewed systems. Every night, night on night, we have seen an increase in drone attacks on Kyiv and other cities, from Dnipro to Zaporizhzhia and Kherson and back again. They are increasing on an unprecedented scale. Some could argue that Putin has been emboldened recently, but we are seeing an increase and we must do everything we possibly can to support the Ukrainians.

[Sir Iain Duncan Smith (Chingford and Woodford Green) (Con)]

I commend the hon. Gentleman’s statement on our support for Poland. Of course we have to support Poland; it is quite right that we should do so.

May I return the hon. Gentleman to the main issue here, which is Russia’s intense bombing attacks on Ukraine? I recently came back from Ukraine. Every night in Kyiv, Lviv and other towns, people are being killed by this brute. This is just an example of what is going on across the border on a greater scale. This question remains for us. Have the Government really made overtures to the US President to say that the time is over for constant statements that say that we may do something, we will do something and we will have sanctions? Surely, we now have to get the US to massively up the level of sanctions. That is what Russia fears. Also, European nations must be told that they cannot buy any more oil or gas that has been run through India or wherever. That has to stop. We have to make that work. And we have to make sure that, at the end of it all, Russia pays a penalty right now and understands that. Will the British Government please take the opportunity, when the US President comes over, to say, “Enough is enough. Please act and get this thing done”?

[Al Carns]

I thank the right hon. Member for his contribution and for his stalwart support on both defence and foreign affairs. Our sanctions programme has been pretty impressive to date. I can almost guarantee that when the US President comes over, there will be discussions on a whole range of topics and that Ukraine will probably be central, alongside other issues within the UK.

Imposing a penalty on Russia is exactly what we have done in a bipartisan way. When the previous Government were in office, we led the way on equipment going into Ukraine. We are continuing to do that. We have seen a huge uplift in the amount of resources going to Ukraine, financially and in terms of weapons, but also, importantly, in industrial build across Europe. That is not just in the UK, but across all our European nations. Industry is required to maintain the pace and scale of the conflict, which I think has caught people out in the past.

[Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab)]

Following on from the question by the right hon. Member for Chingford and Woodford Green (Sir Iain Duncan Smith), the reality is that Putin has become emboldened since he met President Trump. No longer is there pressure for an immediate ceasefire, only that we get to a long-term, distant peace arrangement that, as we all know, will never happen. The threat of further sanctions from the US, which Putin was really frightened about, has now apparently been taken off the table. When President Trump comes over here, will my hon. Friend engage with our colleagues in the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office to try to put pressure on President Trump to say we should recognise that the one thing that can be done to get President Putin to back off and properly look at a ceasefire is further sanctions from the US, to marry those put on by ourselves and our European colleagues?

[Al Carns]

I thank my hon. Friend for his contribution. He is the third person to speak about sanctions; it absolutely has sunk in, and we will discuss it with our cross-Government colleagues in due course. I would not underestimate the ability of the Americans to act—it is down to the American people and the American Government to decide, but I would not underestimate that ability over the short, medium or long term. One of the key points of having a US visit of such a level is that it will give us the opportunity to discuss these issues in person and to really highlight what is important to us. It speaks to the importance of being in the tent to have those discussions for us as a Government, and for everybody and every party in this wonderful place.

[Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con)]

Let us be clear: this is no accidental violation of Poland’s—or NATO’s—airspace. As NATO members, one could argue that it is actually a violation of our own airspace. Is it not clear that Russia is testing NATO’s resolve, and that Putin will ruthlessly exploit any real or perceived diplomatic, military or political weakness? I get the Minister’s point on calibration and proportionality, but what does a robust response mean? Following on from an earlier question from the Labour Benches, given that there are many Russian ships in the English channel and around these isles from which drones could easily be deployed, what about UK air defences?

[Al Carns]

The intelligence agencies will be able to provide the best analysis of this attack, so I will not jump to conclusions on the intentions behind it. It has, however, been clear for several years now that there has been consistent testing of NATO as a whole, whether that is 20,000 cyber-attacks from hostile states in the past two years or the use of chemical or radiological weapons on UK soil, to name just two of the litany of incidents. I fully support the Ukrainian strategy of fight and talk to keep the pressure on the Russians to ensure that they come to the table. I fully support a US-led peace process, but the Ukrainians’ view must be central, and they must lead it from their perspective.

[Oliver Ryan (Burnley) (Lab/Co-op)]

I am glad to hear the Minister’s resolve and, indeed, the whole House’s united condemnation and shock at these outrageous attacks. The UK must stand firm with NATO, with Poland and with Europe, and we must increase our support for Ukraine and its neighbours including Estonia, Latvia, Finland, Lithuania and elsewhere. Following on from the previous question, what steps has the Minister taken to review our defences in the light of recent events?

[Al Carns]

First, we are fully in support of our NATO allies and, of course, our Baltic allies. The last time article 4 was invoked was 2022, when it was invoked by many of our Baltic allies on the invasion of Ukraine. It has been invoked eight times, with the most recent instance, obviously, being this morning. I am not going to give the details of our air defence operational capabilities here, but we do have a suite of capabilities. If Members read the strategic defence review and the defence industrial strategy, they will see that there is a large proportion on industrial rebuild here in the UK and supporting our allies with joint ventures and partnerships to re-establish the military industrial base of Europe in these unprecedented times, and central to that will be air defence.

[Steve Darling (Torbay) (LD)]

I understand that Ukraine holds approximately €190 billion in frozen Russian assets. Press reports today suggest that there is a level of flexibility in the stance on releasing them, as long as there are some legal guarantees from the European Union around the risks that may be faced. Are the Government supporting the European Union to unlock this opportunity, which could help to support efforts in Ukraine?

[Al Carns]

We support the ability to get resources into Ukraine in any way, shape or form. I will raise that specific matter with the Home Office and our cross-Government colleagues and get back to the hon. Gentleman on the answer.

[Ms Stella Creasy (Walthamstow) (Lab/Co-op)]

Our constituents with links to Poland will understandably be terrified by last night’s development, but they will also be reassured that the Polish people, like the Ukrainian people, do not stand alone. NATO’s supreme headquarters confirmed that last night’s mission involved not just Polish air defence, but Dutch F-35s, German Patriot batteries and Italian early warning aircraft. The EU High Representative has talked about increasing its involvement in the East Shield project, which we are already part of. Will the Minister update this House on his conversations with our European counterparts about last night and on what more we will do to stand with the Polish and Ukrainian people?

[Al Carns]

First, I would like to thank both Polish and NATO air defence forces for disrupting the attack that took place yesterday. As Members will know, the Defence Secretary is with the E5 at the moment, and they have discussed this specific issue. Looking forward, we are working towards a bilateral defence and security treaty with the Polish.

[Ben Obese-Jecty (Huntingdon) (Con)]

I recently visited the Royal Air Force in Poland during its recent deployment in NATO’s enhanced air policing mission during Op Chessman, where I saw at first hand RAF Typhoons scrambled to intercept a Russian signals intelligence Coot-A—Poland feels the threat from Russia much more keenly than I think we appreciate in this House. In the drones debate last week, I raised with the Minister that we have a paucity of counter-UAS capability. While we obviously do not face the risk that Poland does or have plans such as the East Shield, what steps are the Government taking to ensure that our own territory, critical infrastructure and military bases—both here and overseas—possess an organic capability that can be brought to bear?

[Al Carns]

We absolutely need to have an integrated air defence system with our European and NATO allies, and we must look after our critical national infrastructure; that is why the SDR and the defence industrial strategy really have a focus on industrial rebuild, part of which is air defence. We are also working with our Ukrainian allies to learn best practice from them and pull that back to the UK.

[Perran Moon (Camborne and Redruth) (Lab)]

Meur ras, Madam Deputy Speaker. Not only is the shocking escalation of hostilities by Russia a deliberately provocative act, but it threatens all NATO states, and an iron-clad response is now required. Will the Ministry, with our NATO partners, be unequivocal in reminding Russian and Belarusian counterparts of NATO article 5, and that an attack on Poland is an attack on all NATO partners, including the United Kingdom?

[Al Carns]

We will absolutely do that. It is worth noting that articles 4 and 5 are not linked; nevertheless, we will be going all out to remind all our allies and partners of the severity of the situation and, of course, the continuing barbaric nature of Putin’s invasion of Ukraine.

[Charlie Maynard (Witney) (LD)]

Will the Minister outline what the Government are doing to highlight and explain to the citizens of our country what our obligations are to Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia and all our NATO allies under article 5, and the role played by the joint expeditionary force, with the Baltic three, the Nordic five, the Netherlands and the UK?

[Al Carns]

The hon. Member raises a really important point. One of the biggest impacts on the cost of living across this country is the war between Ukraine and Russia—it is having a second and third-order effect that is affecting everyone in the country. It is really worthwhile reminding our citizens of that, and that if article 5 is invoked, we will have an obligation to defend. That is so important when we look at our foreign policy and where we need to prioritise our resource.

[John Slinger (Rugby) (Lab)]

The UK and Poland have a very close defence and security relationship; Poland is, of course, one of our most important European allies. What plans does the Minister have to strengthen this relationship and those with our other allies? Does he agree that we need to do all we can to calmly make clear to our population that the defence of the free world is being tested, and that we need collectively to be resolute in our response?

[Al Carns]

In 24 years in the military, I have never seen it as fractious or fragile as it is, particularly today. It is on all of us to make sure that the population understands the risk to the geopolitical environment that surrounds us and gives us the standard of living we have in the UK. We are working towards a bilateral defence and security treaty with Poland, which will deepen ties, and an industrial partnership.

[Stuart Anderson (South Shropshire) (Con)]

I believe that this was a deliberate attack by Putin to test the resolve and resources of NATO and that we will see more in the coming weeks, months and years. Russia was very quick to put out disinformation by pumping the airwaves in the cyber-space. Can we ensure that we are providing all resources to counter disinformation, which is a battlespace on its own, and that we are ramping up against the current threat that Russia is pushing out across NATO countries?

[Al Carns]

I thank the hon. and gallant Member for his contribution and support for defence affairs. Some can be quite disparaging about it, but it is worth reminding ourselves that NATO is the most effective military alliance ever seen in history. Its numbers and capacity far outweigh some of our adversaries. One area it has fantastic command capability in is information operations, and as Members of Parliament we can all play our part in that by taking away the messages we have heard today and making sure that our nation and constituents understand the second and third-order effects of potential escalation.

[Sean Woodcock (Banbury) (Lab)]

For many years Banbury has been home to thousands of Polish citizens, who will understandably be very concerned at events over the past 24 hours. Can the Minister reassure them not only that our relationship with Poland is steadfast but that this Government are taking steps to strengthen it in spite of Putin?

[Al Carns]

Putin’s actions pull NATO together and forge alliances and partnerships, and they focus us in on the barbaric nature of Russia’s aggression. I have worked with the Polish in the past, and we have a great relationship with them. They are increasing defence spending, and there are industrial opportunities there. We also have great cultural ties with Poland. The Polish served in the Air Force in the second world war and all the way through to the latter years. We are fully behind Poland, our allies and partners.

[Dave Doogan (Angus and Perthshire Glens) (SNP)]

I congratulate and salute the brave aircrew who intercepted this flagrant breach not just of Poland’s airspace but of the international rules-based order. I do not believe for one second that this was some inadvertent mistake. This is classic Russian playbook. Russia was probing NATO in that attack and will continue to probe until it comes up against the resistance that it deems worthy of a change in policy. Russia responds in two ways: one is strength and the other is weakness, and if it sees weakness it will continue. Can the Minister help the House understand what the robust response to this flagrant attack will look like?

[Al Carns]

As I mentioned earlier, when these incidents take place, it forges and focuses the alliance and takes away any friction, because we create unity of effort, so it is a mismove by Putin to think that it does not make NATO stronger. If we are looking at deterrence, whether by punishment or denial, we see that Ukraine is holding back one of the biggest militaries in the world and that there have been a million casualties, and that the denial is greater NATO unity and focus on the aggressor that is Putin.

[Graeme Downie (Dunfermline and Dollar) (Lab)]

This attack by Vladimir Putin on a NATO member that has been a leader in resisting Russian aggression and supplying Ukraine is a clear escalation and an attempt, as others have said, to probe NATO defences and intimidate the alliance. Can the Minister assure me that the UK and NATO will not be intimidated and that the Government are considering robust military options to stand up to this bully in Moscow? Closer to home, can he assure me that the attacks will confirm the urgency to escalate and accelerate our development of the Type 83 destroyer and the future air defence system so that our country is fully protected in the future?

[Al Carns]

I thank my hon. Friend for his contribution to defence. He is a stalwart champion of Ukraine and defence as a whole. I have never been intimidated in my life. We as a country will not be intimidated, and neither will NATO. I reiterate that our defence industrial strategy is absolutely critical. Giving weapons to Ukraine is one thing, but building industrial capacity to generate mass is how countries win wars should they be caught up in one. That is why the strategic defence review’s first 70 pages are all about industry.

[Sir Oliver Dowden (Hertsmere) (Con)]

In the Minister’s excellent response, he talked about the geopolitical situation. During my time in office, I saw more and more co-operation between Russia, China, North Korea and Iran. He talked about the emboldening of Putin. Does he share my concern that the recent show of unity at the Shanghai Co-operation Organisation summit in China may well have emboldened Putin? That should be a wake-up call for all western democracies to stand together in defence of their mutual values?

[Al Carns]

I absolutely agree that we must stand together for those mutual values, whether that is the right to independence, to self-determination, to collective security and so on. Yes, Putin may feel emboldened, but I would argue that his actions today have strengthened and galvanised the alliance. I can guarantee that the discussions with the E5 and NATO that take place will be absolutely focused on Russia, and that drives economic growth and spending on defence, so I would argue that it is not just a shot across the border but a shot in the foot from Putin.

[Several hon. Members rose—]

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Ms Nusrat Ghani)]

Mr Naish, you seem to have bounced around every seat on the Back Bench. Are you finally comfortable and ready to ask a question?

[James Naish (Rushcliffe) (Lab)]

Yes, Madam Deputy Speaker. I apologise for moving around. Poland is one of our closest European allies, with a long, shared history. In my region of the east midlands, that is embodied in our large British Polish community, whose roots go back over 80 years. In the light of last night’s attack, what are the Government’s plans to strengthen our deterrence on NATO’s north-eastern flank?

[Al Carns]

Poland is one of our strongest allies and, interestingly, is building one of the biggest land forces in Europe. Its recapitalisation programme is of a significant scale, because it has a large land border. From my perspective, working with Poland towards a bilateral defence and security treaty is absolutely essential due to the industrial and bilateral benefits it will bring. We stand side by side with the Polish—no questions, no doubts—and we stand absolutely at the centre of NATO defence policy.

[Manuela Perteghella (Stratford-on-Avon) (LD)]

My constituency also has a large Polish community, who have been alarmed to see Russian drones violating Polish airspace. We all know that if Ukraine were to fall to Putin’s aggression, Poland would be next in his sights. How are the Government intending to support Poland in defending its sovereignty, and what steps are the Government taking to strengthen our own security?

[Al Carns]

I thank the hon. Member for her contribution, and I thank the Polish members of her constituency for supporting Poland during these times. We have a multitude of different capabilities in Poland that have rotated through. For example, as mentioned by the Opposition, our NATO enhanced joint air policing stopped just a couple of months ago and was rotated. We also have a light cavalry squadron there working with the Polish and the US. Poland is also a central pillar of the coalition of the willing as we move forward. Everything is done by, with and alongside our Polish allies.

[Jacob Collier (Burton and Uttoxeter) (Lab)]

I join the Minister in his condemnation of this clear escalation against our Polish allies. He will know that my constituency has a large Polish diaspora, who are extremely concerned about their country and fearful of further Russian attacks. What assurances can he give the Polish community in my constituency and across the country, and what work will he do across Government to support the Polish community at this difficult time?

[Al Carns]

The assurance we can give is that NATO is the most effective military alliance of all time, and Poland, the UK and our allies sit central to that. The centrality of the alliance is the best form of deterrence and, therefore, the best form of assurance to both my hon. Friend’s constituents and people across the whole NATO alliance, and it is central to our defence policy as we move forward.

[Dr Andrew Murrison (South West Wiltshire) (Con)]

President Zelensky has been consistent in his argument that the invasion of his country is just the beginning and that we are all in the crosshairs. He made that argument forcefully—and famously—in the Oval Office. Does the Minister not agree that what has happened with this violation of Polish and NATO airspace completely vindicates President Zelensky?

[Al Carns]

I have met President Zelensky several times, and I am a keen observer of the conflict as it has moved forward—a million Russian casualties and a 40 km dead zone on the frontline that would reflect any battlefront or frontline from the first world war to the second world war. What is happening there is absolutely atrocious. I am always really clear: deterrence, yes and peace, yes, but appeasement? No.

[Kevin Bonavia (Stevenage) (Lab)]

Like the hon. Member for Huntingdon (Ben Obese-Jecty), I was part of the excellent armed forces parliamentary scheme visit to Operation Chessman in Poland earlier this year. I also saw the scrambling of our RAF Typhoon jet and it going up in the sky to check out suspicious Russian air activity. That was a surprise to me, but from speaking to our RAF personnel, I found that it was quite common at the time. From speaking later on to our Polish counterparts, I know that that is what they are facing in Poland; the public there are well aware of the Russian threat. Here in this country, I am not so sure that the British public get quite how serious the threat is. In Poland, they are on the physical frontline, and people in Ukraine are paying the horrible price of Putin’s aggression. Will the Minister reassure the House and the public that the Government are doing all they can to deal with the Russian threat of cyber-attacks and grey warfare on Europe and, indeed, this country?

[Al Carns]

My hon. Friend brings us to a really important point. We must not alarm the nation and we must not scare the nation, but we must be honest with the nation as to the risks and threats posed towards our defence and, indeed, the citizens of this country. We need to be clear about that. That is why in the strategic defence review we see talk of military intelligence and the review that is going on, because if we are to explain to the population why we are spending more on defence, we must ensure that it is related to those threats. We will explain it clearly—the SDR has stated it—and then we will double down on investment in the defence industry to ensure that we can provide the assurance that we can contribute to NATO in an absolutely above-and-beyond meaningful way.

[Gavin Robinson (Belfast East) (DUP)]

In November 2022, the hon. Members for Widnes and Halewood (Derek Twigg) and for Angus and Perthshire Glens (Dave Doogan) and I were in Ukraine with the Defence Committee when there was an onslaught of rockets fired into that country, one of which errantly fell into Poland and killed two Polish nationals. On that day, Poland considered triggering article 4, and today it has clearly done so. In the intervening period of almost three years, there has been a growing reluctance to equip Ukraine to defend its skies and, importantly, to do so from the skies, so while this article 4 meeting of member states will consider how we protect the skies of NATO, will the Minister confirm that he is willing to extend that conversation to how we appropriately and effectively defend the skies of Ukraine?

[Al Carns]

That is a great question from the right hon. Member, who I know is a stalwart supporter of defence. As we move forward with the strategic defence review and defence industrial strategy, we must ensure that we revitalise our defence industry so that we produce that important mix of high-end systems—high-end air defence—and low-end systems that can be used in an economic mismatch between cheap and high-end systems. Getting that mix right is complicated, but in the defence industrial strategy and the SDR we are intent on ensuring that our British military is equipped with that high and low-end mix of fifth and sixth-generation and mass-produced hardware in due course.

[Sir Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)]

I entirely agree with the Minister when he says that NATO is the most successful defensive alliance in history, but the reason for that is that, until recently, the commitment of the United States to NATO was never in question. It is in question now because of the nature of the incumbent of the White House. President Putin either has some sort of hold over Donald Trump, about which we do not know, or he successfully flatters him. When President Trump is in the country, can we point out to him in the strongest possible terms that this response by Russia a couple of weeks after rolling out the red carpet for the killer in the Kremlin shows nothing but disrespect to the White House and its occupant?

[Al Carns]

I thank the right hon. Member for his continued support for defence. The United States has been really clear that it would like European nations to spend more on defence. It obviously has a multitude of different threats that it has to deal with. When the US President comes to the UK—we are in the tent—we are going to sit down with him and discuss these issues in detail.

[Jess Brown-Fuller (Chichester) (LD)]

I put on record my respect for the bravery of the Ukrainian children Vladyslav, Valeriia and Roman who came to Parliament last night to share their stories as survivors of Putin’s war of aggression. Putin’s action over Polish airspace last night was a deliberate move to test NATO’s reaction, and the response must match the moment. Will the Minister please push for a cohesive plan to seize frozen Russian assets and funnel them to the humanitarian mission to support Ukraine’s incredible and inspiring future generation?

[Al Carns]

My heart goes out to those children and to everyone in Ukraine who is going through this—they have been going through this for several years. I guarantee the hon. Member that discussions are ongoing now about how we can push the system more to pressure Russia into coming towards the peace table.

[Sarah Bool (South Northamptonshire) (Con)]

The Minister agreed with my hon. Friend the Member for South Suffolk (James Cartlidge) that industrial collaboration between the UK and Poland is an important part of our relationship. A key part of that is primarily focused on ground-based air defence, and these events surely underline why that is critical to us and our allies. Will he tell us what progress there has been on the joint UK-Poland future common missile programme to create longer-range ground-based air defence for both nations?

[Al Carns]

I do not have the detail on that industrial partnership; I can write back to the hon. Member in due course. Air defence is critical, as is making sure that we can secure our oceans, subsurface and, of course, land.

[Jim Allister (North Antrim) (TUV)]

It is good that there is universal recognition across the House that last night was an attack not just on Polish airspace but on NATO airspace. In terms of the response, may I bring the Minister back to sanctions? We have sanctions on Russian crude oil, although sadly there is at least one NATO country that does not implement them. With regard to refined oil, are we in this country not importing considerable quantities of Russian crude oil that has been refined down? In the recent trade deal with India, was there any attempt to put any restraint on that?

[Al Carns]

On the latter point, I will engage with my colleagues across Government and look into the detail. Putting pressure on Russia is absolutely our priority to bring it to the peace table in due course, and we are working exceptionally hard to deliver that.

[James MacCleary (Lewes) (LD)]

The Minister was quite right to describe this violation of Polish airspace as unprecedented, but I am sure he would agree that it is not isolated; in fact, it represents the latest escalation in Russia’s campaign of attacks on central and eastern European NATO allies. Just last year, shopping centres in Vilnius and Warsaw were set on fire, and the leaders of those countries pointed the finger firmly at Russian military intelligence. Just last week, a jet carrying the President of the European Commission suffered a cyber-attack that was initiated by Russia. Russia is clearly not deterred by the current measures in place. Will the Minister outline what we can do as a leading military power in Europe and in NATO to enhance and reinforce the capabilities of our NATO allies who are on the frontline of the confrontation with Russia?

[Al Carns]

We are doing that right now. The defence industrial strategy, the strategic defence review and the industrial rebuild will ensure that we have the right arms—and enough of them—to reinforce the deterrence and, if called to, to fight and win.

[Clive Jones (Wokingham) (LD)]

Russian drones over Poland suggest that Putin is testing NATO’s resolve to support its members. Will the Minister push the Prime Minister to urge President Trump and the members of the G7 to produce a cohesive plan to seize the $300 billion in frozen Russian assets held in their countries and funnel that money to the frontline in Ukraine? That money would transform Zelensky’s efforts to repel Putin’s illegal war machine. Will the Government commit to doing that?

[Al Carns]

The United States is one of our most critical allies, and when the President of the United States visits the UK there will be a multitude of discussions, particularly focused on Ukraine, European security and, of course, NATO.

[Adam Dance (Yeovil) (LD)]

Does the Minister agree that we need to take stronger steps to deter Putin? That starts with seizing billions in frozen Russian assets across the UK and using them to support Ukraine in its fight against Russia, because Putin has shown that if we give him an inch, he will take a mile.

[Al Carns]

As mentioned previously, we have to continue to push and pressure Putin to bring him to the peace table, through a whole suite of different capabilities, from providing arms to Ukraine all the way through to sanctions. We will continue to do that.

[Richard Foord (Honiton and Sidmouth) (LD)]

The Russian drones over Poland were tracked by Polish aircraft but also by Dutch aircraft stationed in Poland. That reminds us that four years ago Putin sought a roll-back in NATO deployments from central and eastern Europe. In 2021 Russia outrageously demanded that NATO allies deploy no forces in countries that joined the alliance after 1997. Does the Minister agree that had the US acceded to those demands, we might be seeing devastating consequences in Poland today?

[Al Carns]

It is so interesting when we talk about deterrence. There are huge multinational NATO exercises that take place every year. I was the chief of staff of the carrier strike group in 2021, on the date the hon. Gentleman mentioned. That was called Cold Response, which was the biggest naval exercise to the High North in several years. We demonstrate to Russia on multiple different occasions how effective the NATO alliance is and, if called to, how it will fight and win.

[Freddie van Mierlo (Henley and Thame) (LD)]

May I give my thanks to the Polish and Dutch air crews who were involved in the defence of Poland’s airspace last night? The seats in their jets may have been manufactured and tested in my constituency, at Chalgrove airfield, but that airfield could be demolished thanks to proposals by Homes England to build a new town there. Will the Minister meet me to urgently address that threat to UK national security?

[Al Carns]

Yes.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I congratulate the hon. and gallant Minister on his elevation, which is well deserved, an on the comment he made about not be intimidated. He speaks for us all in that regard—indeed, I almost feel a poster campaign coming, about standing firm. The incursion of Russian drones into a NATO member nation is a slap in the face for the very idea of NATO and must be dealt with effectively and immediately. What collective discussions will be held within NATO to determine a robust response to the testing of our borders and the resolution to stand fast against Russia?

[Al Carns]

I thank the hon. Member for his question and his support for defence. Discussions in the E5 are ongoing as we speak, and the NAC has sat and will continue to discuss this issue. I can guarantee him that the UK will be at the very centre of those discussions and no one will intimidate this great isle at all.