The Secretary of State for Health and Social Care (Wes Streeting)

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I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.

Today, across the UK, 350 young people aged 25 and under will take up smoking. It is a decision that the vast majority will later regret. They will try to quit again and again, but most will not be able to break their addiction. They will suffer strokes, diabetes, heart disease, cancer, stillbirth, dementia or asthma as a direct result of smoking. For two in three of those young people, the habit they are beginning today will eventually kill them.

Smoking takes 80,000 lives a year and causes one in four deaths from cancer in England, a hospital admission almost every minute and 100 GP appointments an hour. It is the leading cause of sickness, disability and death in our country. And today, Members of this House can consign it to the history books.

The Bill before the House will raise the legal age of the purchase of tobacco by one year every year, creating the first smokefree generation and, eventually, a smokefree nation. The Bill will enable the Government to extend the current indoor smoking ban to certain outdoor settings, and we will consult on banning smoking outside schools and hospitals and in playgrounds, protecting children and vulnerable people from the harms of second-hand smoke.

The Bill will come down on the vaping industry like a ton of bricks, to prevent a new generation of children and young people from getting hooked on nicotine. Taken together, these measures add up to the most significant public health intervention in a generation. They are a giant leap in this Government’s mission to build a healthy society and, in doing so, they will help to build a more healthy economy too.

Wes Streeting

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I can not only imagine it, but I recently experienced a similar situation. There I was in Barkingside Sainsbury’s one evening, only weeks ago, buying a bottle of wine to have with dinner and, to my surprise, I was asked for my ID. I am afraid it is just a burden that those of us with youthful vim and vigour in our early 40s have to bear, and it is a price I am willing to pay—for good moisturiser. However, there is a serious point. Along with many others that I am sure we will encounter during the passage of the Bill, this is one of the cynical arguments being deployed by the mendacious smoking lobby, which would have us believe that, decades hence, there will be people who are at the margins—one aged 41 and one aged 40, for example—being asked for ID on the sale of cigarettes. The point is that the Bill will create a smokefree generation. Young people growing up in our country today will not be smokers, because we will have stopped the start. We will do everything we can to support adults who are currently smoking, because the vast majority want to break the habit but struggle to do so.

Wes Streeting

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I was going to address that point later in my speech, but let me address it now. It is not often that a Government comment on leaks or welcome the events following a leak; I do not want to encourage future leaks, either. However, it is well known and a matter of accurate reporting, in this case, that we were considering an extension of the ban on outdoor smoking to include outdoor hospitality, including pubs, as the hon. Gentleman mentioned. Because of that leak, representations were heard from Members from across the House, including the hon. Gentleman, my hon. Friend the Member for Great Grimsby and Cleethorpes (Melanie Onn) and others. We took those representations very seriously because we know the hospitality industry has been through a torrid time, and not just in rural communities. I accept that rural pubs face a big challenge, but even high street pubs in towns and cities are struggling.

Our approach to public health always has to weigh up the upside benefits to public health against the downside consequences elsewhere. It is not in the national interest to see our high streets further suffer, so I reassure the hon. Member for North Dorset (Simon Hoare) and the hospitality industry—although I think it feels reassured on this already—that we will not be consulting on extending the powers to outdoor hospitality spaces. I hope that reassures people, as we embark on consultation on the measures that I am outlining today, that the Government listen, engage and consult seriously. Consultation is genuine with this Government.

Wes Streeting

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My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I am really proud of the impact that the last Labour Government made in reducing smoking harms and the prevalence of smoking in our country.

That brings me on to the next point that I wanted to make. President Truman famously said that it is amazing what you can accomplish

“if you do not care who gets the credit.”

When I first sat down with Rachel Sylvester of The Times in January 2023 and flew a kite to start a debate that a Labour Government might introduce a ban on children and young people today ever buying cigarettes, of the type introduced by our sister party in New Zealand, I was not necessarily convinced my own side would buy it, but I thought it was a debate worth having. I never imagined, in a million years, that I would tune into a Conservative party conference speech by a Conservative Prime Minister announcing his intention to legislate for such a ban. I will do something I do not often do with Conservative party conference speeches and quote extensively—and approvingly—what the then Prime Minister said.

“As Prime Minister I have an obligation to do what I think is the right thing for our country in the long term. And as Conservatives, we have never shirked that responsibility.”

I say that bit through gritted teeth.

“We have always been at the front of society, leading it—”

Who wrote this?

“And when we have the tools at our disposal…to do for our children what we all, in our heart of hearts, know is right, we must act, we must lead…we must put the next generation first.”

In that spirit, I pay tribute to the former Prime Minister, the right hon. Member for Richmond and Northallerton (Rishi Sunak), for picking up the proposal and running with it despite opposition from his own party. That took courage. While we have taken steps to improve this Bill compared with the one put forward by the previous Government, I hope that hon. and right hon. Members on the Conservative Benches will follow his lead, showing that the one nation tradition still has a constituency in the modern Conservative party, and vote for this Bill in the national interest.

The Darzi investigation into the NHS set out the twin challenges facing me, my Department and this Government. The national health service is broken; it is going through the worst crisis in its history. At the point we came into office, waiting lists stood at 7.6 million. We had worse cancer survival rates than most comparable countries, ambulances not arriving on time, the number of GPs falling and dentistry deserts across the country.

Some of the most shocking findings in Lord Darzi’s report, however, were about not the sickness in our NHS, but the sickness in our nation. Children are less healthy today than they were a decade ago. Life expectancy was extended by three and a half years over the course of the last Labour Government, but in the past 14 years, it has grown by just four months. Brits now live shorter lives than people in any other country in western Europe, and we spend fewer years living in good health, becoming sicker sooner. Those are huge costs, borne by all of us as individuals. It means less time in which we are able to live our lives to the full, to do all the things we love and to spend time with the people we love. Sickness is forcing many of us out of work long before retirement age, leaving us dependent on welfare, ridding us of the purpose and belonging that work provides, and for everyone else, it means higher costs to us as taxpayers. Our sick society is holding back our economy, and that is why we should act.

Wes Streeting

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I give way to the Chair of the Health and Social Care Committee.

Wes Streeting

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I recognise that there are people who have the freedom and the liberty to smoke today, the vast majority of whom, by the way, want to stop and struggle to do so. That is why we are announcing support to enable people to do that, with £70 million of investment in smoking cessation services. That is important, but for a future where people are no longer able to smoke, a phased approach is the right thing to do. It is also essential for the health of the individual, the nation and our economy.

Since 2018, our productivity has dropped by £25 billion due to worsening health alone. Some 900,000 more people are off work than would have been on pre-pandemic trends. That is more people than are employed by Tesco, Sainsbury’s and Asda put together. Smoking alone accounts for more than £18 billion in lost productivity. The rising tide of ill health, coupled with our ageing society, presents an existential challenge to our health service. If we do not act now, ever-increasing demands for healthcare threaten to overwhelm and bankrupt the NHS. That is the choice that we face.

Wes Streeting

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I am grateful for the intervention, because I anticipate that there will be similar arguments made from the Opposition Benches, particularly from a right-wing libertarian perspective. I want to engage seriously with those arguments.

Wes Streeting

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I will just respond to the point made by the hon. Member for Romford (Andrew Rosindell).

There is no liberty in addiction; there is no freedom in addiction. The logical extension of the libertarian argument the hon. Gentleman puts forward would be the end of the ban on indoor smoking. If we should take a live and let live approach, why not legalise cannabis? Why not legalise cocaine? We prescribe certain harmful substances, and there is, I think, an unanswerable case on tobacco because it is uniquely addictive and uniquely harmful. That is why we will take a tougher approach with this harmful substance than we would with something such as alcohol, or other harms such as gambling.

Wes Streeting

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I will certainly come on to the action that we are taking on vaping, and the case for it. I welcome the contribution that my hon. Friend has made in his first few months as a Member of this House. He brings enormous expertise and experience, particularly on health, which we very much value here in the Chamber.

One choice would be to continue paying an ever heavier price for failure. That is the road that we were heading down, under the previous Government. Our NHS already takes £4 for every £10 spent by the Government day to day. We are on course to go from being a nation with a national health service to a health service with a nation attached to it. It is projected that by the end of this Parliament, 4.3 million people will be on sickness benefit if we fail to act. Smoking could cause 300,000 patients to be diagnosed with cancer over the next five years, including 3,000 for whom that is the result of exposure to second-hand smoke. That is what happens if we only ever treat the symptoms of ill health. We end up spending more on the NHS than ever before, but with worse care for patients, a ballooning welfare bill due to more and more people being out of work, stagnant economic growth, and the heaviest tax burden in 70 years. In short, we will be paying more, but getting less.

Britain is like a ship with a hole. We are constantly battling to chuck enough water overboard to keep us afloat, as more and more floods in. We must break out of this cycle. Britain can break out of this cycle, but only if we are serious about tackling the causes of ill health, and shift our focus from treating the symptoms to preventing them. Plugging the hole in the ship is how we get back to growth, how we reduce the burden of taxation, and how we ensure that this Government can intrude more lightly on people’s lives.

Wes Streeting

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I am sure that the hon. Gentleman was not accusing me of misleading the House. The argument that he puts forward is used against all sorts of laws and prohibitions. Most people in this country are law-abiding citizens who follow the law. In my constituency today, there will be people dumping fridges and mattresses on street corners—fly-tipping—because they are irresponsible and not law-abiding citizens. We will not always catch them, either through closed-circuit television or local authority enforcement, but that does not mean that we should not tackle them when they do those things.

By phasing in a generational smoking ban, we are taking a measured and reasonable way of creating a smokefree country. That is the right way to proceed, and it is sensible. I know that he does not agree, but he must accept the trade-off—the choices that he is making for the Opposition. First, he is accepting that people will pay a higher price for their healthcare, either through taxes, if he still believes in the national health service, or through the cost to the individual of their healthcare. Secondly, he must concede that, through the harm caused by smoking, he is fuelling welfare dependency. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions had a point when she said earlier that Labour is the party of work, and the Conservatives are the party of welfare. That is the logical conclusion of the hon. Gentleman’s opposition.

Wes Streeting

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My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I am afraid that one of my first experiences of death was watching my grandmother die a very long, slow, painful death from lung cancer as a result of a life of chain smoking. That is the consequence of this cruel addiction. People who start smoking come to regret it. They struggle to stop, and I am afraid that the stolen years that they could have spent with children and grandchildren are only part of the cost. Part of my argument today, particularly to some Opposition Members, is about better use of public money and reducing the taxation burden. Other arguments, too, may have some currency with Members who might be opposed to these measures for libertarian reasons. We should not forget for a moment the impact of this cruel addiction and the harms caused by smoking on people’s quality of life, family life, and memories.

Wes Streeting

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I must make progress, otherwise we will not hear from anyone else in this debate—and I think that it will be a debate.

Taking action requires a reforming Government who are unafraid to take on the orthodoxies of both the right and the left. As I said, my right hon. Friend the Work and Pensions Secretary is today proposing radical reforms to the welfare system. Earlier this month, I set out a package of reforms to drive better productivity in the NHS. Today, we are proposing the biggest public health reform in a generation: phasing out smoking for the next generation by raising the legal age at which tobacco can be sold by one year every year, so that anyone aged 15 and under today will never legally be sold cigarettes. That will phase out smoking altogether.

Almost 20 years ago, the last Labour Government introduced the ban on smoking indoors in public places, as my hon. Friend the Member for Harlow (Chris Vince) said. We heard many of the same arguments, frankly, from opponents of that measure as we hear from opponents of the Bill today. They are free to correct me if I am wrong, but I do not think that Opposition Members who oppose the Bill are also proposing scrapping the indoor smoking ban. We have political consensus on the issue because of its success. The year after the ban came into force in 2007, hospital admissions for heart attacks dropped by 1,200. Admissions for children with asthma had been rising by 5% a year before the ban. After it was introduced, admissions fell by 18% in just three years. Since 2007, smoking rates have been cut by over a third, and as our understanding of second-hand smoke grew, the ban sparked a cultural change. People no longer thought it acceptable to smoke in front of their children, and many stepped outside, even in their own homes. It is time to build on that success.

No smoker intends to cause harm to others, but that is unintentionally what they do through second-hand smoke. The harms from second-hand smoke are less than from actively smoking, but the evidence shows they are still substantial. If people can smell smoke, they are inhaling it. Smoke near schools and playgrounds exposes children to smoke. Hospitals, by definition, have high numbers of medically vulnerable people on their grounds. The Bill will allow Government to extend the ban on indoor smoking to certain outdoor settings, and we will consult on banning smoking outside schools, playgrounds and hospitals to protect children and the most vulnerable.

As we act to prevent harms from smoking, we must also tackle the rising problem of youth vaping. It has more than doubled in the last five years, and one in four 11 to 15-year-olds tried vaping last year. A new generation of children is getting hooked on nicotine, and there should be no doubt about the cause, and no illusion that this has happened by accident. On any high street in the country, we can see shop windows filled with brightly coloured packaging for vapes, with flavours like blue razz lemonade and tongue twisters sour apple. Those products are designed, made, packaged, marketed and sold deliberately to children. This industry has cynically targeted its harmful products to kids.

Action is long overdue. We promised to stamp out youth vaping in our manifesto, and the Bill delivers the change that we promised. It will close loopholes that allow vapes to be sold or given away to children, provide powers to regulate the flavours, packaging and display of vapes, and introduce on-the-spot fines of £200 for under-age sales. Just as we took action on the advertising and sponsorship of tobacco products, we will bring the law into line for vaping products, too.

Wes Streeting

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We want to work in a genuinely collaborative and cross-party way, and I know that is true right across the House. As I look at the Opposition Benches, including Conservative Benches, I see long-standing campaigners for action on smoking and vaping. We want to listen and engage.

I feel strongly about the matter, as does the Prime Minister. In our manifesto, we set out Labour’s mission to improve the health of the nation. We will be far better served as a country if this is a truly national mission, and if we come together in common cause for action on public health.

Wes Streeting

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In that spirit, I will give way to the hon. Gentleman—and then to some of my hon. Friends.

Wes Streeting

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The right hon. Member is right to make that distinction. As a stop-smoking tool, vaping has a part to play. For smokers, vaping is a better alternative—a route away from smoking. We do not want to throw the baby out with the bathwater. What we are interested in tackling is the scourge of youth vaping and the extent to which young people have been cynically addicted. It is important to say that we do not yet know the full extent of the harms caused by vaping, but we do know two things: first, it is better to vape than to smoke—that is why we are striking the balance in this legislation—and secondly, vapes are harmful. Ask any teacher in the country; they will talk about the signs of nicotine addiction that they see in their pupils, and about having to monitor school toilets to stop children congregating to vape. It is urgent and necessary to act today to protect this generation of kids from a new addiction, and that is exactly what we will do.

Wes Streeting

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I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that intervention, not least because of the expertise that he brings to the House as a clinician. We are well served by his expertise in debates on the health of the nation.

Opposite me sit many opponents of the Bill and of the Government’s prevention agenda. I acknowledge that their opposition is based on genuine, sincere beliefs about the limits of government and the size of the state, but I appeal to them by saying that the Bill is in the national interest and, ironically, in their ideological interest.

Wes Streeting

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That is a very helpful intervention because it gives me the opportunity to say thank you to my counterparts in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. This is a genuinely four-nations Bill, and through it, we have an opportunity to create a smokefree generation in every corner of our country.

I say to people who have an ideological objection to the Bill that if they believe in lower taxes, as they say they do, and in maintaining a national health service, as they say they do, they cannot duck this simple equation: an ageing population plus a sicker society equals more spending on the NHS, paid through higher taxes. The Bill is just one measure, but it will make a significant difference to the health of our society, and to the balance of that equation.

The question that opponents of the Bill must answer is this: if they want our health and care services to continue having to spend £3 billion every year on the symptoms of smoking, are they willing to accept that that means higher taxes or higher healthcare charges for their constituents? Are they happy for their constituents to shoulder the welfare bill for smokers falling out of the workforce? Those are the consequences of what we are voting on today. Higher taxes and higher welfare are not the Labour way.

There are arguments about liberty from those who oppose based on libertarian belief. They say that the state should not deny individuals the choice to smoke if they want to, but three quarters of smokers want to stop and wish they had never started. It takes a smoker an average of 30 attempts to quit before they manage it. By definition, an addict is not free; there is no choice, no liberty and no freedom in addiction. Nor is choice afforded to anyone inhaling second-hand smoke. Tobacco is not only highly addictive but uniquely harmful. Yes, some smokers can quit, but most who want to cannot. Those who have help to quit are three times more likely to succeed. That is why the Government are, as I said, investing £70 million in smoking cessation services—an investment that will pay for itself several times over—but prevention is better than cure, and that is why we are taking action, through the Bill, to stop the start.

In conclusion, this Bill marks the start of a decade in which we will shift the focus of healthcare from treatment to prevention; take serious action on not just smoking, but obesity; reform the NHS, so that it catches problems earlier and gives patients the tools that they need to stay out of hospital; harness the revolution taking place in life sciences; and fundamentally transform the NHS, so that it predicts illness and prevents it from ever taking hold. That is the future available to us, and it is the future we must realise if we are going to put our welfare system, health service and public finances on a sustainable footing. It starts with this Bill. Smokers are more likely to need NHS services, be admitted to hospital, drop out of the workforce and on to welfare, and need social care years earlier than if they did not smoke. By taking the measures set out in the Bill, we are putting the UK on the road to becoming smokefree, building a healthier, wealthier nation with a health service fit for the future and leading the world as we do so. I commend this Bill to the House.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Care (Andrew Gwynne)

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I am grateful to the hon. and learned Gentleman for giving way. I fully understand his concern. That is why this Government need to give credit to the previous Government, who worked so hard to make this a four-nation approach. I want to give him and the House the assurance that it is the responsibility of the UK Government to ensure the compatibility of the Bill with the Windsor framework. The Government have taken into account all domestic and international obligations in bringing forward this Bill today.

Andrew Gwynne

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I am sorry to detain the House, but I make it clear that this is a United Kingdom law. It covers all four nations of the United Kingdom, and we are assured that it complies with the requirements of the Windsor framework. This law will stand.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Care (Andrew Gwynne)

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It is a pleasure to close this debate on behalf of the Government. I commend my hon. Friends the Members for City of Durham (Mary Kelly Foy), for Newcastle upon Tyne East and Wallsend (Mary Glindon), for Chatham and Aylesford (Tristan Osborne), for Suffolk Coastal (Jenny Riddell-Carpenter), for Worthing West (Dr Cooper), for Southampton Itchen (Darren Paffey), for Mid Cheshire (Andrew Cooper), for Cardiff West (Mr Barros-Curtis), for Dartford (Jim Dickson), for Bolton North East (Kirith Entwistle), for Hartlepool (Mr Brash) and for Bolton West (Phil Brickell) and, on the Opposition Benches, the hon. Members for North Dorset (Simon Hoare), for Harrow East (Bob Blackman), for Lewes (James MacCleary), for Aberdeenshire North and Moray East (Seamus Logan), for Bath (Wera Hobhouse) and for South Antrim (Robin Swann), the hon. and learned Member for North Antrim (Jim Allister) and the hon. Member for Newbury (Mr Dillon), for a series of outstanding contributions this afternoon. Many of us on the Labour Benches remember the last Labour Government’s proud history of public health measures—indeed, some of us were in this place at the time. From the indoor smoking ban to putting an end to cigarette advertising, we took the bold action to drive down smoking prevalence, and the country is still feeling the benefits of those policies today. However, after 14 years of public health neglect, we have seen much of our hard work squandered. Health inequalities have grown worse, and life expectancy is stalling. Most appallingly, life expectancy is going into reverse in some communities.

Andrew Gwynne

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I thank my hon. Friend for that contribution, not least because it allows me to place on record this Government’s thanks to Javed Khan for the work he did in his review of smoking. My hon. Friend has hit the nail on the head, because in the parts of Greater Manchester that he and I represent, health inequalities are stark and visible. We are going to turn them around. Our health mission pledged to tackle the social inequalities that influence health, and to ensure that children have the very best start possible, in which they are given the building blocks for a healthy life. That will be an immense challenge, but every member of this Government is up for the battle.

Colleagues have made a number of points, and I will try to answer as many as I can in the time we have left. First, I pay tribute to the hon. Member for Harrow East for the work he has done on this issue over a number of years. I assure him that all tobacco products are covered by this Bill, including the chewing tobacco product that he referred to. My hon. Friend the Member for City of Durham, who has also been a passionate spokesperson for tackling smoking harm, is absolutely right to raise the issue of article 5.3. The new Labour Government take very seriously their obligations as a party to the World Health Organisation’s framework convention on tobacco control, and we remain fully committed to that convention, including the important commitment, under article 5.3, to protecting public health policies on tobacco control from

“commercial and other vested interests of the tobacco industry”.

The shadow Secretary of State, the right hon. Member for Melton and Syston (Edward Argar), referred to the powers to bring in smokefree places. We will consult on extending smokefree places to include areas outside schools, children’s playgrounds and hospitals in England. We believe that strikes the right balance between protecting the most vulnerable and recognising the pressures facing the hospitality sector. I want to make the shadow Secretary of State aware, though, that the Bill was designed in full consultation with, and to meet the needs of, the devolved Governments across the whole of the United Kingdom. It is a UK Bill, with powers that meet the requirements of each of the component parts of our country, and I reiterate that as far as England is concerned, this Government will seek to consult on schools, children’s playgrounds and hospitals only.

A number of Members, including the hon. Member for Harrow East, raised the topic of stop smoking services. We are putting an extra £70 million into local stop smoking services, which could help with up to 200,000 successful quits a year. We are still rolling out a smokefree pregnancy incentive scheme, which will support pregnant women in quitting and ensure that more babies do not suffer a hit to their life chances before they are even born.

Andrew Gwynne

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I think the hon. Gentleman has just talked himself into a job. He is absolutely right that the best people to advocate for stopping smoking are former smokers.

We will still encourage adult smokers to switch to vaping through Swap to Stop in England, and I am delighted that localities have asked for over half a million starter kits so far. On advertising regulations, of course the consultation will take place after Royal Assent, but I hope that I can assure the hon. Member for Harrow East that we will take away his point about ensuring that the NHS can still advertise Swap to Stop under those regulations. On a tobacco industry levy, fiscal matters are for the Treasury, but I am sure that his views and those of others have been communicated to Treasury Ministers.

The hon. Member for Lewes mentioned the rise of the black market. This is a line that has been parroted by the tobacco industry for years, so we need to spell out the facts. Whenever Governments of any guise have introduced targeted tobacco control measures, the black market actually has not prospered. Consumption of illegal tobacco has gone from 15 billion cigarettes nearly 25 years ago to just one 10th of that amount last year, and when the last Labour Government raised the age of sale from 16 to 18, the number of illicit cigarettes fell by a quarter. However, this requires better enforcement, and we will use every second of the generously long buffer period to support businesses in preparing for and implementing the changes, including through information campaigns. We are providing £10 million to trading standards to increase their capacity and capabilities next year, and there is £100 million for Border Force and His Majesty’s Revenue and Customs over the next five years to tackle illicit and under-age sales. The Bill also allows trading standards to issue on-the-spot fines of £200, and to reinvest the proceeds of those fines, and indeed the licensing regime, back into further enforcement.

Andrew Gwynne

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We have already doubled the fine proposed in the previous Government’s Bill, which is a step. I listened very carefully to the hon. Gentleman’s argument, and he might wish to pursue it in Committee, should he be fortunate enough to be a Committee member. I look forward to the debates we might have.

A number of questions about the licensing regime were posed by the shadow Secretary of State, as well as by the hon. Member for North Shropshire (Helen Morgan), the hon. Member for North Dorset (Simon Hoare) and others. I reassure the House that across the sector, there is broad consensus among retailers about a licensing scheme; more than four fifths of them have expressed their support. Unlike alcohol, there is no licensing requirement for tobacco. A lot of people outside this House would find that hard to understand. They assume that convenience stores, supermarkets and other places that sell alcohol are licensed in a similar way to sell tobacco products, but that is not the case. We will bring in a licensing scheme, because we know that will have a huge public health impact, as other licensing regimes do.

Andrew Gwynne

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Local government will take the lead on this matter, and we will consult widely on how we bring forward the licensing regime, and on how we implement it through secondary legislation, following that consultation. An impact assessment will be prepared before the secondary legislation is introduced, but I want to work with local government across England—I am sure that ministerial counterparts in other parts of the United Kingdom seeking to bring in a licensing regime will do the same—to ensure that we get this right for local government. That includes ensuring that the cost of running a licensing regime is met by the regime itself.

Andrew Gwynne

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My hon. Friend is absolutely right. From the engagement that I have had with members across all parties in local government—elected members, officers and directors of public health—I know that they want these measures. They are up for introducing them, and for helping us to get them right.

The hon. Member for North Shropshire raised the issue of ID checks, as did a number of others. I gently say to those who expressed a degree of scepticism that most retailers already follow recommended practice and regularly ask customers for ID. We are stopping people from ever starting smoking, and 83% of smokers start before the age of 20. That means that someone who has never previously smoked is highly unlikely to want to take up smoking later in life. Our published modelling shows that smoking rates in England for 14 to 30-year-olds could be close to 0% as early as 2050 with the measures in this Bill.

Andrew Gwynne

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That is absolutely crucial. With this legislation, we have to make sure that we do not take our foot off the pedal when it comes to education and informing the next generation of children of the harms of smoking and vaping through our public health initiative.

Andrew Gwynne

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That is an important point, and it allows me to place on record my thanks to the Health Ministers in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland for how they have approached our desire to bring all parts of the United Kingdom together to make a smokefree United Kingdom, not just a smokefree England, through this legislation. I hope that I can reassure my hon. Friend that I have had incredibly fruitful conversations with the Health Minister in the SNP Scottish Government. She is as wedded and committed to this Bill and its measures as we are in this House today. I am reassured that across the whole United Kingdom, we will be walking in step to ensure that the next generation of children never takes up smoking.

Andrew Gwynne

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I will not give way now, as I have to end my speech. I know that you are keeping a careful eye on the clock, Madam Deputy Speaker.

If I had had more time, I would have talked about the huge public health benefits of the Bill that will do so much to prevent death, dementia and disability in old age. I could have gone into further detail about the economic benefits of the Bill, such as getting people back into work and saving untold sums of money for our NHS, but, from my perspective, the single most important thing that the Bill will do is tackle those stark inequalities across our country, because this fight is personal to me.

I have seen the harmful effects of tobacco on the people around me my entire life. As a schoolboy, I was educated about the harms of smoking, but it did nothing to stop a number of my peers from getting addicted to cigarettes. As an MP, I have seen at first hand how tobacco has devastated deprived communities across our country, not least in Greater Manchester. As the Minister for public health, I am determined to end the cycle of poverty and ill health, the blight of addition, disease and despair caused by smoking. No longer will it sap the strength of our cities—Stoke, Sunderland, Salford and so many others. This is the will of His Majesty’s Government, this is the promise of the Bill, and I urge colleagues across the House to vote with us to protect their constituents and do the right thing.

Question put, That the Bill be now read a Second time.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Care (Andrew Gwynne)

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Q Good morning, CMOs. I would like to ask about the additions to the Bill; it is of course a reincarnation, as Professor Whitty says, of an earlier Bill from the previous Government, although we have sought to go further. In your professional opinion, what impact will the additions to the Bill have in terms of public health benefits for the four nations?

Professor Sir Chris Whitty: May I take one impact that extends my previous points about outdoor smoking, and then maybe pass on to Sir Gregor and Sir Frank? For outdoor smoking, the previous Bill—the very good Bill put forward by the previous Government—did not have anything that addressed the needs of current smokers. It also did not address the needs of people exposed to smoke, despite the fact that, like over 88% of the population, they are not smokers and many of them are medically vulnerable.

The Bill allows the Government to take powers to prevent outdoor smoking, first with additional public consultation and then additional measures in Parliament. Ministers—you, Minister, have demonstrated this in the House of Commons—have indicated the areas where they intend to use these powers to reduce the risks of passive smoking. These are the areas of the greatest vulnerability: around hospitals, where some of the most medically vulnerable are highly concentrated; and around children’s playgrounds, where children are—I think everybody who does not have shares in cigarette companies would agree that exposing children to second-hand smoke is an unacceptable thing to do. That is one area where the Bill has gone further than the previous one. Maybe Sir Frank might want to add to that.

Sir Francis Atherton: In Wales, we have had smoke-free hospitals, schools and play areas since 2021, under our earlier public health legislation, and it is completely non-controversial. There are clearly issues around implementation and enforcement, particularly around hospitals, but if you go now to schools and hospitals there is no controversy whatever. So that will not make a huge amount of difference in Wales.

The one thing that will make a difference, I think, is aligning the vaping legislation with the smoking legislation. I say that because, going back to the earliest question, vape use among young people in Wales has shot up over recent years—8% of 11 to 16-year-olds regularly vape, up from 5% and a bit in 2021. It has absolutely shot up. Bringing together vaping and tobacco legislation in terms of vape-free and smoke-free places is a really important thing and one for which I have been arguing for quite some time.

Andrew Gwynne

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Q Ministers and officials have worked really hard, across the four nations, to put together a piece of legislation that is relevant to all four nations. How important do you think it is that the Bill extends powers and responsibilities on public health across the four nations?

Professor Sir Gregor Ian Smith: Perhaps I can begin this answer; my colleagues may then want to come in. Alignment in this respect is really important, partly because of the clarity of message that exists to the public around about what is legally acceptable in relation to smoking and to vaping. Alignment across tobacco smoking and vape use is similarly important across the four nations.

Public health messaging is incredibly important. Having a consistent message across our four nations helps to ensure that the message is much more clearly understood and adhered to by the public. I welcome the attempts by Ministers to ensure that alignment exists within the Bill, so that as we go forward we give protection to those who do not smoke in the way that we are planning on doing with the Bill as it proceeds.

One of the most important aspects is to make sure that, although in Scotland, for instance, legislation prevents smoking within 15 metres of the likes of public places such as outside a hospital, we bring that much more closely in line with where the Welsh position is—so to the whole of the hospital grounds. Extending it to protect, as Sir Chris has said, more vulnerable places such as play parks is something I would certainly welcome in Scotland. We should do that in step across the four nations. I again emphasise that public messaging is incredibly important in making sure that we get the adherence we seek.

Andrew Gwynne

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Q I turn to two criticisms of the Bill raised on Second Reading. We have already touched on some of the libertarian arguments, but I would like to know whether you think the issue of choice is addressed by the Bill. Do you have any sympathy with the libertarian argument, or do you think that the Bill—tackling tobacco and child vaping—is something that the libertarian argument does not stand up against?

Professor Sir Chris Whitty: I have already given my view that, although I have a lot of sympathy for choice and freedom arguments in many situations, tobacco addiction and second-hand smoking are not among those.

Sir Francis Atherton: If anything, choice is undermined by the addictive nature of nicotine. It is incredibly addictive. We know that now; we have known it for many years, actually. The tobacco industry has known it for many years, which is why the industry, through vaping and other means, is quite keen to have the next generation of people in our countries addicted to nicotine. Choice is completely undermined and taken away by the addictive nature of the product being marketed.

Professor Sir Gregor Ian Smith: Nicotine addiction is horrific. Nearly 9,000 people a year still die in Scotland as a result of tobacco-related health issues. Two thirds of people who begin smoking are potentially at risk of dying as a consequence of their addiction. We know that the industry targets both the younger age spectrum and vulnerable groups to sustain their industry.

If you have ever spoken to a patient with a serious tobacco-related illness such as chronic obstructive pulmonary disease, who is now suffering from the consequences of that—the limited ability to live their life—and the addictive nature of the disease, you soon begin to learn that they are filled with nothing but regret and guilt for the part that their addiction has played in the development of the disease. The stigma associated with tobacco-related disease is quite terrible for those who experience it. The basis of that is this lack of choice that they have developed as a consequence of the addictive nature of the nicotine products.

Professor Sir Chris Whitty: If I could just add a specific example from—

Andrew Gwynne

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Q Good morning, all. As we know, this is a resurrected Bill from the previous Government, with additional measures. How do you think it compares with the previous iteration?

Hazel Cheeseman: We are all delighted to see this Bill return, and in such a strong form. There is complete consensus across the ASHs of the four nations that this is a Bill that is needed, wanted and workable.

As the chief medical officer said in the previous session, the improvements in this Bill are that there are more provisions that will assist in reducing smoking among people who are already smoking and in protecting those exposed to second-hand smoke. It also creates a comprehensive set of regulations around all tobacco and nicotine products and provides us with that future-proof—the flexibility to respond to evidence as it emerges and changes and to the market as it emerges and changes over time.

The Bill is enormously welcome for its comprehensiveness and robustness, and therefore for the opportunity to significantly reduce the uptake of smoking among the next generation and to aid people in quitting. The Minister will not mind me saying that I think there is more that the Government will need to do to accelerate that progress, in terms of investing in support for those who are already smoking and ensuring that we have the right strategy in place for that, but the Bill is a really good step in the right direction.

Andrew Gwynne

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Q What impact have tobacco control measures had over time to date, and what impact do you expect this Bill to have in addition?

Sheila Duffy: We have seen that tobacco control measures work. We have seen that they have reduced adult smoking rates over time. The points made by the chief medical officers were well made: we are looking to the generation growing up now in the UK; we are looking to protect them from addictions that so many now regret and that are claiming lives unnecessarily.

Suzanne Cass: I would add that tobacco control policies that are put in place are popular, and are really welcomed among members of the public; they are also welcomed among people who smoke. There is a huge surge of public support for tobacco control policies, and that grows—it does not diminish—as we introduce new policies; it grows, and that public support increases.

Naomi Thompson: In Northern Ireland, we are working towards a smoke-free Northern Ireland by 2035, and the reality is that tobacco control over the past 10 years has managed to bring things down to a stage where 2035 has potential. That is why tobacco control needs to continue. A Bill like this is just brilliant to keep that focus. If we can prevent people from starting, that will be absolutely key to making Northern Ireland, certainly, smoke-free by then.

Andrew Gwynne

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Q Let me ask a question of Suzanne Cass. We heard from the CMO for Wales in the session before that the extension of smoke-free to outdoor places—such as outside hospitals, in playgrounds and outside schools—is already in place in Wales. What lessons do we need to learn from that?

Suzanne Cass: As you know, ASH Wales and the Welsh Government have been at the forefront of implementing smoke-free spaces. We campaigned for smoke-free playgrounds and smoke-free school gates, both on a voluntary basis. Luckily, the foresight of the Welsh Government has made that provision legislation when it comes to hospital grounds, playgrounds, sports grounds, mental health units and a raft of other smoke- free spaces. We are obviously delighted that the Welsh Government has implemented that legislation.

The legislation has made a huge difference, in that it has allowed a platform for communication—communicating the message that it is not okay to smoke around children. There is a massive amount of public support for that messaging, and we have had the opportunity to communicate it. When it comes to smoke-free hospital grounds, a lot of us are looking at that legislation and the possibility of implementing it.

We have obviously had the legislation in place in Wales since 2021, and what we would say on the lessons learned is that there has to be a package when it comes to implementation. We cannot just legislate; we need to be looking at the support that is in hospitals for smokers to quit, we need to have trained staff and we need to have enforcement on the ground. There needs to be a whole package that comes with that legislation. That is the enormous lesson that we learned.

We implemented that legislation in 2021—in the midst of covid, which was tricky—but we have had problems around enforcement and problems around compliance. It is a very different kind of tobacco policy from that in the other smoke-free spaces. When it comes to the other smoke-free places—playgrounds, sports grounds and other areas like that—there is a lot of compliance, but when it comes to hospital grounds, you have to do a bit more of the legwork. But it is well worth it, because what comes with that is on-site hospital support for stopping smoking, and the message to everybody coming on to that site that smoking is not okay and that there is support available if you want to quit. So it comes with a whole raft of measures that support that smoke-free message.

Andrew Gwynne

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Q Can you tell us about the evidence of the impacts of second-hand smoking on cancer in your case, Dr Walker, and on asthma and lung conditions in your case, Sarah? What difference do you think that the measures outlined in the Bill will have on those conditions?

Dr Ian Walker: To start with smoking and cancer, the links between passive smoking and cancer, particularly lung cancer, are very clear. It is fair to say that there is less evidence around different scenarios that you might predict through this Bill, such as different outdoor environments and so on, but that is more because those studies have not necessarily been done. It is an important point to make that there is an absence of evidence, rather than evidence of absence.

You heard from the CMO of England this morning that if you can smell cigarette smoke, you are exposed to it. The direct risk, then, is linked to how long you are exposed to it, how concentrated the environment is, how close you are to it and so on. Nevertheless, passive smoking is harmful—not just for cancer, but for vulnerable people with many other conditions as well—so we are very much supportive of the introduction of smoke-free places and the ability to restrict people smoking in particular outdoor spaces.

Sarah Sleet: When it comes to people with lung conditions, second-hand smoke is incredibly important; it is a well-known, severe risk factor for people with lung conditions. About one in five of us in the UK will experience a lung condition—there are around 7 million people with asthma and about 1.6 million people living with chronic obstructive pulmonary disease. Those are two major conditions that are profoundly affected by second-hand smoking, and are clear risk factors in terms of deaths from asthma and people being hospitalised with exacerbations, so it is incredibly important that we deal with the issue of second-hand smoking. People said earlier that there is no choice about second-hand smoking, and yet it profoundly affects those with lung conditions. It is incredibly important that we ensure that we protect those vulnerable people as far as possible.

When it comes to the discussion about how far we should go in terms of smoke-free and vape-free places, we would consider going further than what has been suggested already and looking at other areas to make smoke-free. I know there has been discussion about hospitality and trying to balance the potential economic impact that has been talked about if we make the outside of hospitality places smoke-free. However, we think, given the balance between the public health impact and what we have seen with smoke-free indoor spaces and its impact on business, we could go further and should go further, there.

Andrew Gwynne

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Q The Bill takes powers to introduce restrictions on vaping, which are obviously subject to consultation after the Bill receives Royal Assent. What factors do you think will need to be taken into consideration as part of that further consultation?

Sarah Sleet: People with asthma and lung conditions are in the middle, where they are affected by both smoking and vaping. It is really important to get the balance right. Smoking is terrible—it is terrible for people with lung conditions—and we need to make sure we can drive down smoking rates as much as possible.

Vaping can play a part in helping with smoking cessation, but it should only be used for smoking cessation. People who have never smoked, and definitely children, should not be taking up vaping. We see vaping as a staging post to being completely nicotine-free. It is important to get the balance right between making vaping available for those who need smoking cessation and not encouraging people to try vaping or to keep vaping longer than they need to.

The legislation is good in allowing that flexibility for adjusting over time, as we get more evidence in. It is really important to put evaluation in place and make sure that robust evaluation does flow through over time, so we can adjust and respond to it. Traditionally—certainly in respiratory diseases—there has generally not been enough research and evaluation, so we need to correct that now.

Dr Ian Walker: First, I want to confirm that we are very much supportive of taking those powers. I think one of the real strengths of the Bill is the ability to adjust, moderate and titrate those powers and the actions that we take over time, not just as new evidence emerges, but as the tobacco industry and new products may emerge to try to circumvent the regulation that is in place. That is a really important part of the Bill.

I think the crux of the question was about what is important to consider through the consultation. From our perspective, it is important to get a balanced view on what the right actions are in this area. Of course we all agree that we want to limit, reduce and stop access for children and young people and to limit the appeal to never-smokers, while balancing that carefully against making cessation tools available to people who are trying to quit. It is important not to forget the 6 million people who are currently smokers and the long-term health implications ahead of them. We need a balance so that it is as easy as possible for those people to quit when they have chosen to do so. There will be many balancing features and balancing points of evidence that will be really important through the consultation in coming to the right outcome.

Andrew Gwynne

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Q In a nutshell, how important is it that the measures in the Bill are passed?

Dr Ian Walker: Critical. Without a doubt, there is no single bigger action that you could take to reduce the cancer burden on the country. The cancer burden sits at a very personal, individual level for people getting their own diagnosis; it sits at a family level and at a friend level. It also sits at an economic level for the country and at an NHS level, in terms of the burden that smoking-related illnesses cause for the NHS.

From my perspective, this is a world-leading piece of legislation. It is absolutely an opportunity for generational change and a long-term legacy that will see our children and grandchildren never able to legally buy tobacco in the UK and never exposed to the harms that that would cause them.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Care (Andrew Gwynne)

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I beg to move a manuscript amendment:

That the Order of the Committee of 7 January 2023 be varied by leaving out from “Aneurin Bevan University Health Board” to end of table and insert—

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Care (Andrew Gwynne)

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Q I thank the LGA for the support and engagement that we have had in drawing up the measures. Do you think that the Bill gives local authorities the right tools in relation smoking and vaping? How can we best work with colleagues in local government to get this right and ensure that it is workable on the ground?

David Fothergill: The engagement has been really positive and constructive. We have faith in the Bill and that it has the right intention, the right measures and the right provisions. Our concern is around the funding, the timing and the pipeline of trading standards. The key thing for us is that it is an empowering Bill; it empowers local authorities. If you tried to legislate for every single local authority to implement it in the same way, we would run into some quite difficult conversations and difficult times; it would make enforcement more difficult. Allowing local councils to do what is right for them is the route to go.

People who sit on licensing committees have local understanding. I can give you an example. Should we ban the sale of tobacco within 100 metres of a school? That would be quite easy to do in an urban area, but I look after villages. If you do that, they have lost their only shop. People would not be able to go to that shop to buy legally. So you have got to have local knowledge. It is the right Bill, but we need to make sure that it is an empowering Bill for local authorities to implement in their local communities.

Andrew Gwynne

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Q Of course local government has been at the forefront of enforcing existing tobacco measures. What lessons can we learn from the experience of local government in terms of enforcement to date?

David Fothergill: It is very much about keeping our feet on the ground. Let us be honest: trading standards are under a lot of pressure and have been cut over the last 10 years. Trading standards have responsibility for enforcing over 300 pieces of legislation, so there is a lot of pressure on trading standards; but I think that by working with retailers and building the relationship locally and ensuring that we use enforcement as the final tool, we can work very well in our local areas.

Andrew Gwynne

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Q Professor Daszkiewicz—I hope I have pronounced that right—we heard earlier from the chief medical officer of Wales and from representatives of Action on Smoking and Health Wales about the extension of outdoor smoke-free spaces in Wales. What can we learn from the experiences of Wales in extending to schools, hospitals and children’s playgrounds?

Professor Tracy Daszkiewicz: It is a really useful question. It is about looking at it through multiple lenses. So there is the enforcement element of it, but there are also the elements that go behind that. If you take hospitals as an example in terms of having NHS smoke-free sites, enforcement is part of that, but it is also about having cessation services in place. If you have people going in for elective surgery, for example, you have got a period of time where you can put in a smoking cessation intervention. It is a “waiting well” method, if you like, so that people go in for surgery in a way that makes for the best possible outcomes, and have an opportunity to either get towards a quit or at least not go in smoking. That enables patients not to be going outside and using cigarettes and so on, which enables that smoke-free site and also creates better outcomes for our patients. So, we do need to think about that.

There has to be a common-sense approach. We know that vaping is a tool towards quitting smoking; we recognise that is part of the process. Where we can get people off tobacco smoking, that is crucial, particularly around health and wellbeing. The open spaces element and the public spaces element is a part that we have really focused on in Wales. The learning from that is still going on; it is not the end of the road. We are learning all the time, adapting to new evidence and making the changes that we need to make to enforce that more consistently, but in a fair way for our population.

Andrew Gwynne

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Q The measures in the Bill include the introduction of a licensing scheme for England, for Wales and for Northern Ireland. Scotland already has its own arrangements, which the Bill will seek to extend. What would you like to see from a licensing scheme?

David Fothergill: We would like to see a licensing scheme that is very aligned with the alcohol licensing scheme, although there clearly cannot be a single scheme. The four provisions within the alcohol licensing scheme brought in by the Licensing Act 2003 were preventing crime and disorder, ensuring public safety, preventing public nuisance and protecting children from harm. If we can build those provisions into this legislation for the licensing of the sale of tobacco and vapes, that will give us enough to work on. I would also say that the flexibility we need at a local level remains critical.

Andrew Gwynne

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Q Welcome, Professor Bauld. What impact have tobacco control measures had on smoking rates over time? What impact do you expect this Bill to have?

Professor Linda Bauld: Thank you for that question, Minister. I have been working in tobacco control for almost 30 years, and the impact has been phenomenal. If you look back to the late 1940s and 1950s, 80% of men smoked in the UK. We have driven that down gradually over the years. We started to measure it in about 1974, and the level of smoking in the UK is now about 12% or 13%—the second lowest in Europe. The reason that we have achieved that is in line with what is being proposed in this legislation. It is about using comprehensive measures and implementing them over the years to regulate what I often call the four p’s: the product, the place, the price and the promotion. You are taking action on potentially all of those—including price, with the levy that is coming in, or the tax on vapes.

We have made a lot of progress, but we are not there yet. I think what you will hear from my clinical colleagues later is that in line with keeping that firm focus on prevention, as you are doing in this Bill, we also need to keep the focus on cessation and particularly on marginalised groups, deprivation, mental health and so on. The key is comprehensive tobacco control. Keep doing it, and that is what the Bill is adding to.

Andrew Gwynne

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Q In an earlier answer that you gave to the shadow Minister, you talked about the two priorities of preventing new smoking and tackling youth vaping, alongside supporting the 6 million to quit. The Bill seeks to reduce youth vaping. How do you think we best achieve that while not deterring adult smokers from quitting?

Professor Linda Bauld: If I can start with the second part of your question, in terms of not deterring adult smokers, we need to continue making the products available for smoking cessation. We are not banning vapes—that has happened in a number of other countries, as the CMO for England was saying—but we are recognising the things that make them appealing, attractive and affordable to young people, and taking action on those. It is fine for the adult smoker not to be able to see a wide array of advertised products on the shop front, on the billboard or at the point of sale, but to know they are there behind the counter and ask for them. I also do not think that the adult smoker who is trying to quit cares about gummy bears or Coca-Cola flavours—maybe they want some flavours, but not all of them. It is about striking a balance.

Finally, although we are not here to talk about the funding of smoking cessation services today—certainly in England, you have made previous announcements about that—it is important that in clinical settings and through stop smoking services we can give good information about vaping and other cessation aids, and support people to quit that way.

The Lord Commissioner of His Majesty’s Treasury (Taiwo Owatemi)

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Q We have spoken briefly about this. Are you concerned that introducing a generational ban on cigarettes might cause other forms of tobacco use to increase among younger generations?

Professor Linda Bauld: That is interesting. I think a similar question was asked earlier. I do not think that history bears that out. Often, a concern is that if we take action on one product, we displace youth use to other products. With action that we have taken on smoking over the years, we have not seen a dramatic increase in, for example, youth alcohol use or use of other legal products. There are still major issues with young people consuming alcohol but, actually, the number of young people drinking at harmful levels has reduced in recent years, at the same time as tobacco measures have been introduced over time.

I do not think that we will see a big displacement to other substances by introducing this set of measures, but we need to keep our eye on getting that balance right. In terms of the other products that we are concerned young people might use—obviously, there are illegal drugs, which we have separate legislation on, and we need to keep an eye on alcohol control for young people—all those things need to happen together. But I have not seen any evidence to suggest that taking this kind of action will cause some other public health issue that we need to be overly concerned about.

Andrew Gwynne

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Q I have a very similar question to the shadow Minister’s. She asked whether you are confident that trading standards will have the resources to enforce the measures in this Bill. My question is: are you confident that trading standards will have the right powers to enforce the measures in this Bill?

Lord Michael Bichard: I think we do feel we will have the right powers, based on the fact that we are already doing some of this quite successfully. We seized something like 2 million vapes last year; we carried out 400,000 test purchases—which is how we check whether or not the legislation is being enforced—and we seized, I think, 19 million illegal cigarettes. So in a way, this is not new stuff for us; it is just bigger. We have the powers and we use them quite effectively. We know that HMRC thinks we are pretty effective in relation to tobacco. We like to think we are a good delivery agency.

Wendy Martin: There has been a lot of work in the development of the Bill and the associated Department for Environment Food and Rural Affairs legislation around the ban on single-use vaping products with officials, so we have worked together with them to try to get this to a good place in terms of enforcement powers.

Andrew Gwynne

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Q One of the issues that came up on Second Reading and in the previous iteration of this Bill is that some people question whether moving to a smoke-free generation policy risks a growth in the black market and illicit trade. Does that accord with your experience of the illicit tobacco market and previous tobacco control measures?

Lord Michael Bichard: No. Our experience of the illicit tobacco market is that it has reduced rather than increased, despite the additional regulation, the price rise and all the rest of it, so we do not think that is a serious issue. We think that there are a number of myths around illicit tobacco and illicit vapes that do not stand up to close scrutiny. So no, we do not think that is a serious problem.

Andrew Gwynne

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Q Finally from me, in the previous iteration of this Bill, the fixed penalty notices were to be set at £100. There was criticism and concern from trading standards representatives, who advocated for increasing the value of the fixed penalty notice. Notwithstanding your answer to the shadow Minister’s question, do you think that doubling the fixed penalty notice to £200 strikes a better balance?

Lord Michael Bichard: Yes, I think we feel that. You might also consider an increase for second offenders before you move to prosecution. I do not think anyone wants to move to prosecution, because it is such a time-intensive process. I know we have limited time, but one thing we have not talked about is retailers. We also ought to be concerned about the online market—or rather, you should be concerned, as we are. It is a difficulty for us and for local authorities, because no single local authority thinks it should be responsible for enforcing legislation in an online marketplace.

We have a solution to that, which is that we have a lead authority that we think could deal with this and avoid the problem with individual local authorities. I think that will become an increasingly important element of the vape marketplace.

Andrew Gwynne

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Q Welcome to the Committee. Can you outline the lessons from the introduction of previous tobacco control policies, for example on age of sale change, which we can consider as we introduce the measures in the Bill?

Inga Becker-Hansen: Retailers are quite comfortable with the licensing scheme for tobacco at this point. That is something we are used to as a whole. One aspect of it is the fact that your larger retailers, for example, who have multiple premises do not have to worry about individual licenses for those individual premises. That is something we are quite concerned about with the licensing scheme, and what that could mean. If individual licenses had to be applied for, that could lead to divergence across a retail brand, and that affects your overall public retail image for customers.

We would also like to highlight that if the licensing scheme were to follow something such as the tobacco licensing scheme—the idea that licensing authorities could approve or deny certain applications—that could affect long-standing, established, compliant retailers, and that could lead to a loss of revenue for them. We appreciate the need for the legislation. We appreciate the need for a level playing field, and that is what we would encourage through the Bill.

Andrew Gwynne

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Q On proof of age and identification, which do you think is more complex? Is it having to work out, on a daily basis, whether somebody is over the age of 18 from their date of birth, or is it just being able to see that they were born after 1 January 2009?

Inga Becker-Hansen: Currently, retailers are used to the idea of over the age of 18, simply because of tobacco and alcohol sales. The identification of January 2009 is more difficult, in terms of the rolling age and how that will look in the future. Currently, it is quite identifiable. I would say that January 2009 is more difficult for retailers to handle in the future per se.

Andrew Gwynne

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Q I am not sure whether you understood the question that I was asking. If I have a piece of ID that shows clearly that I was born after 1 January 2009, that is very simple to understand. If I say I was born on 4 June 1974, it is obvious that I am over 18, but if it was 2004 rather than 1974, you would have to calculate in your head what my age is.

Inga Becker-Hansen: Yes, currently that is true. However, in the future, if somebody walks into a store and they are 45 or 43, I would not be able to tell that at face value.

Andrew Gwynne

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Q From their ID, you would.

Inga Becker-Hansen: From their ID, you would. What I am trying to say is that it raises the thing of eventually becoming “no ID, no sale”, which is a concept that retailers would have to follow. But it would also mean that consumer-wise, you would require a consumer-facing public awareness campaign to identify and illustrate to the general public that it is “no ID, no sale”, if that is the angle that the Government are focusing on.

Andrew Gwynne

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Q How can Government best support retailers to implement the changes in the Bill?

Inga Becker-Hansen: Ideally, with a cohesive guideline illustrating to retailers how to implement the legislation. We would also encourage alignment across the regulations in terms of new regulations coming through, such as secondary legislation on the licensing scheme, and consultations on any secondary legislation so that both larger and smaller retailers may contribute their ideas. Ideally, there would be constant communication with industry to understand how these changes are made, as well as a public awareness campaign so that the public is aware of the changes, which would hopefully reduce any potential violence against or abuse of retail workers.

Andrew Gwynne

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Q I can assure you that there will be consultation with the sector. What would you want to see from a licensing scheme? Are there any lessons from supporting the implementation of alcohol licensing, for example?

Inga Becker-Hansen: We would like to see a licensing scheme as a level playing field where small, independent and larger retailers are viewed on the same level. Again, we would encourage the multi-stores to require only one licence rather than looking at individual premises licences, because that will make things more difficult.

In terms of the tobacco scheme, ideally things would be grouped together so that there is less administrative burden and therefore less cost for retailers, so that, if the aim for the Government is to transfer from the idea of selling tobacco to people to selling vapes because of the health benefits, that transition is made easier for retailers. Adding on an additional licensing scheme with additional costs and a separate administrative system makes it more difficult for retailers to handle those things at the same time, particularly smaller retailers and independents.

Andrew Gwynne

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Q The shadow Minister is absolutely right to mention highlighter pens. You mentioned pen drives. There are examples of vapes that look like mobile phones. There are examples of vapes that are concealed within the hood strings of hoodies, so kids sucking on their hood strings are often vaping. It is clear that the industry is being very malicious in its approach to marketing vapes, which is why the Bill introduces a ban on advertising and sponsorship. Do you think that will have a material impact on dissuading children and young people from vaping?

Matthew Shanks: I think it will, but for some it will not unless it has the education behind it as well. I also think it is too easy for children to purchase vapes. It is all very nice to think of shopkeepers not allowing children to buy vapes or tobacco if they are under age. I am not denigrating them, but we have instances, for example, of a year 9 child who had a loyalty card for a vape shop. She is 13 years of age—she did not look 18—yet she is being sold that at the local shop. You go in and talk to the local shop and they say that no, of course they have not sold it to her, and then there is conflict there. We need to look at the legality of it and sterner punishment, for want of a better word, for people who are found to be selling.

The drop box online purchasing industry also needs to be looked at. I do not know how, but again, we know that people purchase vapes from those places. The education side is for parents, because parents and older brothers and sisters think it is safe and will therefore give them a vape. The Bill will help, but there are other things that could help as well.

Andrew Gwynne

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Q In terms of other measures in the Bill, advertising and sponsorship is one side of it, but another aspect will be bringing in regulations on flavours and packaging, subject to the Bill receiving Royal Assent. Do you think that will have an impact on youth vaping?

Matthew Shanks: Packaging and flavouring is really important. As I said before, it is set out as if it were sweets and bubblegum. Why would you need these different flavours? Why are they making something more attractive that is meant to help you stop doing something, so that if you do not like one flavour, you can try lots of them, and collect the different coloured vapes, or build them up into towers? Addressing all those things would help. Linking vaping with smoking, in terms of not being able to purchase it as you go up the age range, would also help.

Vape-free zones are really important. People are vaping indoors. I have seen it today in London on the tube, in pubs and other places—I have not been in a pub today, by the way; that was over the Christmas period, but people are vaping in pubs in the way they used to with cigarette smoke. Again, it is not seen as something dangerous.

If you put all that out there and then put children into the mix and they are looking up and seeing the colourful packaging, the flavouring and so on, why would they not do this?

Andrew Gwynne

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Q Clearly, smoking rates have declined considerably in children and young people and, indeed, the wider population, but do you see the progressive age of sale for smoking as being another important tool to help to create a healthier generation of children and young people?

Matthew Shanks: Yes. My question would be: why would we not?

Andrew Gwynne

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Q Welcome to the Committee, Dr Squire. I will ask two questions specifically about the notification scheme, which you very helpfully outlined to the Committee in your response to the shadow Minister. First, what do you think are the most pressing issues with the current notification scheme that you would like to see addressed in a new registration scheme?

Dr Laura Squire: I think we heard earlier about the different elements you need to make something work—licensing, regulations and registration—and I agree with that. I think it was also mentioned that registration is important to allow compliant businesses to check that the product that they have is compliant.

The significant problem with the notification scheme at the moment is that there is not an easy way to take something off the register once it is already on it. That is a problem, because if people are checking the current register, there might be something on it that we would quite like to take off but cannot.

There are powers to take things off the shelves, so if there was a recall issue, that could be dealt with. However, the main problem, or the primary thing in the Bill that I think needs to change, is having powers to take things off the register. Obviously, we must consult on the regulations themselves, but we welcome that change.

Andrew Gwynne

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Q What do you see as the main differences between the current notification scheme and the scheme that the Bill creates powers to establish?

Dr Laura Squire: I think somebody talked earlier about the package; the Bill is more than the notification scheme, and I think the whole thing works together to make a much safer environment. I was particularly pleased to see that there is a requirement to carry out studies and a requirement to carry out testing. We are sometimes asked about testing. Testing at the point of registration is one thing, but you need to know that the product remains compliant.

Obviously, there must be consultation about exactly what will go into the regulations, but I would expect that there would be an awful lot more linked to the other requirements of the Bill, and that will make it tighter. I think that would be an improvement, because at the moment the Bill is very light-touch.

Taiwo Owatemi

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Q What effect do you think the Bill will have on the number of vaping products that the MHRA will have to approve through its licensing route?

Dr Laura Squire: For a medicines licence?

Taiwo Owatemi

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Q Yes, for medicine licensing.

Dr Laura Squire: That is a difficult one. We had one product that was given a medicines licence in 2015, but it has never been marketed. We continue to try to encourage people to come forward to get medicines licences. However, the reality is that there is such a huge discrepancy between what you can do with a consumer product if you are a manufacturer, in order to get it out there and get it on the market, and what you would have to do to get a licence for it as a medicine—and that is quite right.

What this scheme does is to make it more demanding to be a manufacturer of a consumer product and put more requirement on it. To a certain extent, that reduces the differential between the two, which is welcome. We really continue to encourage people to come forward and talk to us about licensing products. One of the things that will be interesting is the impact this will have on the narrative out there—which was talked about by the previous witness—that vapes are safe. This will perhaps change that narrative and make people realise. All I can say is that we stand ready for more applications for medical licences. We put out some detailed guidance in 2022 to try to encourage manufacturers to do this, and we actually have one coming through the pipeline at the moment. So it will be interesting to see but hard to predict.

Taiwo Owatemi

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Q May I ask one more question? What is the MHRA’s capacity to handle the increased workload that the new legislation will require?

Dr Laura Squire: With the current notification scheme, we have the resource that we need to do that. As the registration scheme becomes more detailed and demanding, and as there is more in it, I would expect that to require more resource. That is something that we need to continue talking to the Department of Health about as it develops the policy, and we will do that.

Also, as part of that, the impact on us will depend on not only what is in the regulation but who does it. I know that there are conversations about where it is best done, and there are registrations for other consumer products that already exist, so there are conversations happening with the Office of Product Safety and Standards. It is important to learn from those sorts of schemes that are already happening. Where that goes is a policy decision for the Department of Health and Social Care, and we will continue to work with it. I think it would also involve being clear about what resources we might need if we carry on and need more. At the moment, we have what we need to do what we need to do under the current law.

Andrew Gwynne

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Q Welcome to the Committee, and I thank you both for your time. In answer to the shadow Minister, you have outlined some of the early impacts of vaping that we are seeing in patients. But I am interested in smoking—tobacco is a killer. Following on from the evidence this morning from the CMOs from across the UK, what impacts of smoking do you see in your patients—I include second-hand smoking in that analysis—and what difference do you think the measures in the Bill will make?

Professor Steve Turner: Smoking is bad whether you are an active smoker or a passive smoker. Sadly, there are lots of children who still actively smoke, but there are many hundreds of thousands of children who are exposed to second-hand smoke in the home. There is undeniable evidence that that exposure is harmful. I do respiratory paediatrics. Asthma admissions are very common and are clearly associated with exposures.

We can look at natural experiments. For example, in Scotland we had the “Take it right outside” campaign, which was a smoke-free homes initiative. After that, there was a reduction in the number of children coming into hospital. When we brought in the ban on smoking in cars in Scotland, there was another reduction. On that whole-population basis, there is a lot of evidence of benefit to the population, particularly children, from smoking interventions. There are also benefits to the birth weight of children.

There is no doubt that there is a huge amount of harm from second-hand smoke, and anything that reduces the population’s exposure to second-hand smoke will benefit the whole population. As we heard earlier from Matthew, the headteacher, it is part of a package, and it is part of education as well. Smoking continues to be something that children should not do. Children should never vape. Children should never smoke. They continue to do so, and anything that we as a responsible society can do to stop that is to everybody’s benefit.

Andrew Gwynne

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Q The extension of smoke-free legislation to outdoor settings is of course subject to consultation, but in England we have made it very clear that we will be consulting on children’s playgrounds, schools and hospitals. Some have argued that the current public health test, which is in the 2006-07 legislation, should be applied going forward. Given that children’s playgrounds would almost certainly not meet that threshold, what is your argument in terms of protecting children from the harms of second-hand smoke?

Professor Steve Turner: Children are very susceptible and can be easily influenced, and they are learning all the time. If they see that it is okay to watch your child’s football match and smoke, or to smoke outside a pub, they will very quickly adapt and think that that is a social norm. There is a powerful social norm exercise there about what we as a society expect is normal, and approving smoking outside hospitals seems to be such a bad, conflicting message. To me, that argument in itself is very powerful.

There were a number of people back in the early noughties who felt that the smoke-free legislation might not have much benefit on pregnancy—why on earth would that reduce low birth weight and premature delivery? Well, it did. That was probably the snowballing effect of stopping smoking in pubs, for example—I think the whole of society changed its attitude and behaviour around smoking. So, going back to the original question, I think that putting restrictions in public spaces will change that social norm to everybody’s benefit.

Andrew Gwynne

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Q The Bill seeks to reduce youth vaping. How do you think we can best achieve that while not deterring adult smokers from quitting?

Professor Steve Turner: That is a really good question. I think that the balance in this Bill—between supporting the 6 million smokers to quit and not engaging children in nicotine addiction—is the right balance. Going back to what I was saying earlier, getting the message across to young people is a multifaceted intervention that requires education as well as legislation. It is a really difficult balance, but I do believe that the Bill, as it is, has that balance just right.

Taiwo Owatemi

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Q Following up on Alex’s question, what engagement has there been with the Irish Government in regard to the differences between what is happening in Ireland and Northern Ireland? Do you think that will lead to changes in Ireland, in terms of moving in a positive direction?

Andrew Gwynne: That is an interesting question. First, there has been really close engagement between the UK Government and the devolved nations. We have the full support of Mike Nesbitt, the Northern Ireland Health Minister, who has helped shape the Bill, as have his officials. The UK Government and the Northern Ireland Executive are in close dialogue with colleagues in the Republic of Ireland to ensure that we discuss at length and in detail the cross-border issues. We will continue to engage with the Republic of Ireland to ensure that the Bill works. Only time will tell whether the Republic of Ireland will decide to follow suit, but the Bill will be a game changer and other countries will want to follow the United Kingdom’s lead.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Care (Andrew Gwynne)

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On a point of order, Sir Roger. The loop system in this room does not appear to be working, at least not for my hearing aid. I do not know whether somebody can get it switched on or, if not, whether Members could please amplify when they speak.

Andrew Gwynne

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I can hear you.

Andrew Gwynne

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Will the Minister give way?

Andrew Gwynne

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The shadow Minister is having a good morning, having not had a particularly great evening last night. With no disrespect to the hon. Member for Windsor, who made this point in his intervention, by the time that the age of sale is legally his age, we hope that smoking prevalence in that age group will be next to zero, and therefore it will not be an issue.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Care (Andrew Gwynne)

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Before we were rudely disturbed by the weekend—I hope that all Members had a good one—we were coming to the conclusion of the debate on this grouping. I thank all hon. Members for their valuable contributions to discussions last week; I will continue to respond to the outstanding points raised in the previous sitting.

On the Windsor framework, we are proud to say that the Bill is UK-wide and has been developed in partnership, in full, with the Scottish Government, Welsh Government and Northern Ireland Executive. This Government, and I hope this House, intend the smoke-free generation policy to apply to all four nations.

Andrew Gwynne

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I am grateful to the shadow Minister for that. We will come on to those issues in more detail when we eventually reach those clauses, which given the rate of progress so far may be in the early hours of tomorrow morning, if Members decide so. The only reason why such paraphernalia is on display and legally sold is to consume tobacco, but we will get more information on that for her when we get to clause 45, which covers that issue.

I was talking about the Windsor framework. We believe that this policy is in accordance with our international obligations. In terms of what products are in scope, the Bill captures all tobacco products, including shisha, cigars and heated tobacco. That is because all tobacco products are harmful. There is no safe level of tobacco consumption. For example, tobacco smoke from cigars leads to the same types of disease as the smoke from cigarettes. In England alone, around five times as many people smoke other tobacco products, such as cigars, as did a decade ago, and children are a part of that increase. Shisha, to which the hon. Member for Windsor referred, also causes the same diseases as cigarettes, including cancer, respiratory diseases and cardiovascular diseases. The volume of smoke produced in the average 45-minute shisha session is estimated to be the same as around 25 cigarettes’-worth of tar, 11 cigarettes’-worth of carbon monoxide and two cigarettes’-worth of nicotine.

Finally, there is clear evidence about the toxicity of heated tobacco. The aerosol generated by heated tobacco also contains carcinogens, and there will be some risk to the health of anyone using those products. The crucial point is that, unlike with vapes, there is no evidence that heated tobacco supports smoking cessation. We must ensure that the Bill is future-proofed to include new or novel products, such as heated tobacco, to protect the public from the harms of tobacco use.

Although cigarettes are the most used form of tobacco, we do not want to create loopholes in the Bill so that the tobacco industry can pivot and continue addicting people to tobacco. As I said previously, the issue is about saying, “The market share you’ve got now is it. We are stopping the conveyor belt.” As we know, if we block one road, the tobacco industry finds another route through. We are making sure that the Bill is as watertight and future-proof as possible so that the tobacco industry can no longer continue to trade with another product that harms and addicts future generations.

Andrew Gwynne

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I do not want to go over the arguments that I have already put to the Committee in an earlier sitting, but there is an ability to use other forms of identification, as I set out. We will be working with the retail industry during the long lead-in time to get in place procedures that retailers are confident with. They will be able to ask for veterans cards, for example.

Andrew Gwynne

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Can the hon. Lady let me finish answering the point she put to me? In fact, I have now forgotten the point she put to me—[Laughter.]

Andrew Gwynne

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I stand by what I have already said. The intention is to work with the retail industry during the long lead-in time to get the mechanisms in place that allow them to adequately enforce the measures in the Bill. We do not want to get this wrong. I politely say to the hon. Lady, however, that in the first instance it is highly unlikely that a veteran born before 1 January 2009 will seek to purchase cigarettes or other tobacco products and be queried about their age. I will take on board what has been said and, if what I said earlier is incorrect, we can perhaps come back to the issue.

I want to come back to tobacco products because the point is crucial. We want to ensure that the tobacco industry has that conveyor belt cut-off. It is therefore rational for all the products that I have mentioned to be included in the smoke-free generation legislation. That will prevent anyone from taking up use of the products in the first place.

As I stated in my opening speech, I am grateful to the hon. Member for Windsor for bringing the discussion before the Committee, but while I appreciate his intention, it is not something the Government support. In relation to the amendments, I say to the Committee that the Government do not believe it is appropriate to establish a more lenient penalty regime for the offences, or to introduce a mandatory age-verification policy.

The clause seeks to change the age of sale for tobacco products, herbal smoking products and cigarette papers in England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland so that no one born on or after 1 January 2009 will legally be sold those products. The Bill will be the biggest public health intervention in a generation, breaking the cycle of addiction and disadvantage, and putting us on track towards a smoke-free UK. For those reasons, I commend the clause to the Committee.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 1 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Andrew Gwynne

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It is not.

Andrew Gwynne

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I am grateful to the shadow Minister for bringing this discussion to the Committee. As we have already argued, the amendments would create a more lenient penalty regime for the offence of purchasing tobacco, herbal smoking products or cigarette papers on behalf of someone under age—commonly known as proxy purchasing. In England, Wales and Northern Ireland, the amendments would create an exception to the maximum penalty that a person could face for committing that offence, if it was the person’s first offence. The amendments would establish that someone who admits to committing an offence for the first time would be liable, on summary conviction,

“to a fine not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale”,

which is £1,000, or liable instead to a discretionary caution in England and Wales or to a conditional caution in Northern Ireland. That is one level lower than the fine for which someone who committed that offence would be liable under the current legislation in England and Wales—level 4, which is £2,500. It is two levels lower than in Northern Ireland, where the fine would be at level 5, which is £5,000.

The amendments would have a similar effect on first-time offences as amendments that we have already discussed. If the Committee is content, I will not repeat myself as the rationale for asking the shadow Minister to withdraw the amendment remains the same as that for amendments that we have already covered.

Andrew Gwynne

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These clauses make it an offence in England, Wales and Northern Ireland for someone over the age of 18 to buy or attempt to buy tobacco products, herbal smoking products or cigarette papers for someone born on or after 1 January 2009. That is called proxy purchasing. Clause 2 replaces the current offence under the Children and Families Act 2014 of someone aged 18 or over buying or attempting to buy tobacco products or cigarette papers on behalf of someone who is under 18 in England and Wales.

Clause 69 amends the offence of proxy purchasing in Northern Ireland to align to the change in the age of sale. That applies to tobacco products, herbal smoking products and cigarette papers.

Andrew Gwynne

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The hon. Gentleman makes a reasonable point. The Bill ensures that no one over the age of 18 is legally able to purchase tobacco products on behalf of someone under the legal age of sale, and there is a differential over time there. The age of 18 was chosen as it avoids criminalising children. This measure applies to all adults, and it does not allow for any ambiguity in law in the future. For example, it captures a situation in which someone over the age of 18, but under the legal age of sale for tobacco, attempts to buy products for a child. This action would be restricted, and the liability would not only be on the person selling the tobacco product, but also on the adult attempting to buy that product for the child.

These clauses align proxy purchasing offences with the new age of sale restriction for England, Wales and Northern Ireland. They provide a defence if a person charged with this offence can prove they had no reason to suspect that the person was born on or after 1 January 2009 or they can prove that they had no reason to believe that the other person intended to use the cigarette papers for smoking, which is in line with existing defences. These clauses are essential to ensure that there are no loopholes in the age of sale legislation, and they build on what works in the current age of sale legislation. I therefore commend the clauses to the Committee.

Andrew Gwynne

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I shall answer some of the points made, which were valid. To answer the shadow Minister, cigarette papers are within the scope of the existing legislation. They are included because burning them adds to the volume of smoke and because, with their bleaches and dyes, as she rightly set out, the range of toxicants in the smoke contributes to the additional risks to smokers.

On filters, I am sympathetic to the shadow Minister’s premise. Although cigarette filters have historically been marketed to make smoking safer, there is no evidence of that whatsoever. All tobacco products are harmful. However, as with all regulations, it is important that measures are considered fully and that the evidence base is there, with no unintended consequences. I do not want to give the tobacco industry the opportunity to greenwash and to say, “Not only are filters healthier for you, but they are healthier for the environment.” We absolutely do not want that. We have powers in part 5 of the Bill to restrict the flavours in cigarette papers, so the argument set out by the shadow Minister is covered. On single-use plastics, it is for the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs to legislate, and it already has powers that enable it to consult on single-use plastics in cigarette filters.

As we have heard, a number of relevant products—for example, pipe cleaners and cigarette papers—can be used for musical instruments, as well as for crafting, art, model making and a whole range of other uses. We do not want to restrict those uses; we want to make it more difficult for people to access such products for the provision of smoking. As we said when we discussed clause 1, we are not making the smoking of tobacco illegal; we are preventing the next generation from getting hooked. The restrictions therefore strike a proportionate balance. A current smoker will be able to smoke until the until the day they die. Although we will do everything we can to give them the opportunity to give up, they will be able to access the products legally, but the Bill will introduce restrictions on them.

We think we have got the balance right, but we will take away the arguments and consider them, because they are valid arguments about how a musician, or someone who wants to use them for crafting and modelling, will still able to access these products if they want to use them.

Andrew Gwynne

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That is precisely the point I was coming to. We will take the argument away because it is a reasonable argument, and we will perhaps consider returning to this issue on Report.

I know that the shadow Minister has every sympathy with the fact that cigarette papers are dangerous when used for the consumption of tobacco, which is what we want to bear down on. As I have said, there are powers in part 5 to restrict the flavours of cigarette papers, but we want to get the balance right so we will take the argument away and consider it.

Andrew Gwynne

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That is a good question. Of course, if it was to be used for the consumption of tobacco, it would come within the scope of the Bill. We have to be clear that many of these products have dual uses, as we have heard. I am as guilty as anybody of making pipe-cleaner characters for my children and grandchildren—grandchild, rather, because I have only one so far.

We want to make sure that those who want to continue smoking are able to do so, but that obvious restrictions and boundaries are put in place regarding the accessibility of these products, so that no child born after 1 January 2009 will ever legally be sold them.

Andrew Gwynne

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Perhaps we will return to that on Report. I have every sympathy with what the shadow Minister says. We do not want to prevent the legitimate use—indeed, a whole variety of uses—of these products, which is why we have the exemption in the Bill. If we are able to do what she suggests under the powers in the Bill, that would be great; if we can do only some of what she asks for in respect of flavours, that would go part of the way, and we will need to look at how we can strengthen that. If the shadow Minister can be a little patient, I think we can come back to this on Report.

Andrew Gwynne

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The clauses restate the ban on tobacco vending machines in England, Wales and Northern Ireland and extend it to include vending machines that sell cigarette papers. The prohibition came into force in 2011 in England and in 2012 in Wales and Northern Ireland. Under the amendments made by the Bill it will be an offence for a person with management or control of a premises to have a vending machine available for use from which tobacco products, herbal smoking products or cigarettes may be bought.

The prohibition was originally introduced because tobacco vending machines were largely unsupervised and allowed under-age access to tobacco. In 2010, 8% of 11 to 15-year-olds who regularly smoked said that vending machines were a usual source of cigarettes. The policy has successfully contributed to reducing smoking rates in young people and has been effective at enabling the age-of-sale restrictions to be implemented and enforced properly.

The existing legislation is consolidated in the Bill to replace the regulations that cover an automatic machine from which tobacco products, herbal smoking products or cigarette papers may be bought. With all the restrictions that apply to such products covered in one Act, those who are affected by and who apply the legislation will find it easier to access them. I commend the clauses to the Committee.

Andrew Gwynne

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Let me first say to the shadow Minister that we are aware of the new type of machines she mentioned, and we are concerned by their presence. The Department is looking to ensure that there are no loopholes in this legislation and that these machines, which may seek to bypass the age of sale restrictions, are not able to. Secondly, she has already answered the point about Scotland: the reason these measures do not appertain to Scotland is that Scotland already has legislation covering them.

To other Members, I say that we are overcomplicating this. As I said in opening, the clauses merely restate the existing ban on tobacco vending machines in England, Wales and Northern Ireland. We are consolidating the legislation to make it easier to understand the law but also to enforce it from one place—and that is it. This is the consolidation of existing powers that are working now.

The hon. Member for Windsor is absolutely right when he says that we want to ensure that age of sale is absolutely enabled to be enforced. As he said, when he was playing snooker in my old constituency, he would have been able to purchase tobacco products from a vending machine, and it was basically on the basis of trust that people were able to do that. That is no longer acceptable. We are bringing in the age restrictions, and we therefore need to make sure that they are adhered to.

I do not wish to stray on to nicotine products, because those are subject to a debate further on in the Bill. However, the hon. Gentleman is right to draw a distinction in the way he has. That is why the whole Bill treats nicotine products separately to, and very differently from, tobacco products, for reasons we will get to in due course.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 3 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 4

Sale of unpackaged cigarettes

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

Andrew Gwynne

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These clauses restate that it is an offence for tobacco retailers to sell cigarettes that are not in the original packaging they were supplied in. Selling unpackaged cigarettes is currently an offence in England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, and these clauses re-enact that offence. The prohibition was originally introduced to reduce smoking among children, because there was evidence that children were being sold single cigarettes. The clauses ensure that the sale of loose cigarettes continues to be prohibited and that cigarettes are sold in the appropriate packaging. I therefore commend the clauses to the Committee.

Andrew Gwynne

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I thank the hon. Lady for raising these matters. Again, it is a case of perhaps overcomplicating what the clause does. As with clause 3, clause 4 merely restates that it is an offence for tobacco retailers to sell cigarettes that are not in the original packaging they were supplied in. We are not talking about proxy purchasing, or somebody breaking up a packet of cigarettes and selling them as an individual; we are talking here about retailers. This practice used to be quite common, but thankfully, because of the measures that are already in place, it is already an offence and we are reaffirming that offence in the Bill.

Andrew Gwynne

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Yes, I believe it will. Of course, this measure is not being taken in isolation, and it is not just a stand-alone measure. This is part of a whole package of tobacco control measures that form this part of the Bill. Taken together, these things will ensure that we drive down even further smoking prevalence in young people. However, we do not want to undo the legislation as it stands; we need it to be part and parcel of the whole raft of measures we are bringing forward.

Andrew Gwynne

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If the hon. Lady is not talking about retailers breaking up packets, which is illegal, she is talking, effectively, about proxy purchasing—an adult buying tobacco products for children, splitting up the packet and selling those products on. It is already an offence for those children to get cigarettes—whether a full packet or part of a packet—even if they are not from retailers. It is proxy purchasing, and we have already covered that.

The shadow Minister raised the issue of messaging on individual cigarettes. I am not sure whether she was under the misapprehension that it is not covered in the Bill. The Bill restates the existing power to make regulations on the appearance of tobacco products, including cigarette sticks. Not only that, but it goes further by extending the power to other products, including cigarette papers. Although we do not plan to introduce dissuasive cigarettes at this time, as we believe we already have strong health warnings in the existing measures, we will continue to monitor the situation. We do leave an open door to it, and the powers are there. We will, however, mandate pack inserts into cigarette packs. We believe that that is proportionate at this time, while not closing the door to going further.

Lastly, the shadow Minister noted that, in some cases, fines are consistent across the United Kingdom, but that, in others, there are differences. I am afraid that that is the result of the devolution settlement. We have built into the Bill the ability for all four nations to walk together on making our country smoke-free, but the levels at which fines are levied are entirely a matter for the devolved Administrations. That is why there is sometimes an inconsistency in fine levels.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 4 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 5

Age of sale notice at point of sale: England

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

Andrew Gwynne

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Clauses 5, 6 and 72 replace the requirement for age of sale notices in England, Wales and Northern Ireland to reflect the new age of sale for tobacco products. Clause 55 provides Scottish Ministers with the power to set requirements about warning statements, which are notices that reflect the new age of sale requirements there. Age of sale notices are required under current legislation and must state in a prominent position:

“It is illegal to sell tobacco products to anyone under the age of 18.”

The Bill will replace that requirement with a requirement for notices to reflect the new age of sale, stating:

“It is illegal to sell tobacco products to anyone born on or after 1 January 2009.”

The notices must comply with any requirements set out in regulations on the size or appearance of those notices. This updated wording on age of sale notices will support tobacco retailers in implementing the new age of sale restrictions by helping to clarify and underline them for customers and staff. I therefore commend these clauses to the Committee.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Care (Andrew Gwynne)

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It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Mark. In responding to points that have been made, I want first to reiterate that these two clauses do not relate to enforcement; they concern the nature of the signage that will be required to be displayed. We can come to those other matters later in the Bill’s proceedings. I remind Opposition Members of what has been said in previous debates: we will use the very long lead-in time to engage fully with the retail sector to ensure that we get the delivery in shops right and to ensure that the Bill’s provisions can be implemented without any hiccups.

I also reiterate that we abhor any violence and abuse towards retail staff—or anybody else—and it is the intention of this Labour Government to introduce a new offence in this respect. Given the comments that have rightly been made in the course of this and earlier debates, I hope that it will command full support from all parts of the House.

The hon. Member for Windsor asked what is meant by “negative resolution procedure”. It is the procedure for the statutory instrument that will be have to be made to introduce these regulations. The fact that it is “negative” means purely that it will not require a parliamentary debate. It will be done through the usual secondary legislation processes.

There were questions about the nature of the clauses relating to different parts of the United Kingdom, and why we are approaching this with slightly different methods. I must say politely—particularly to the shadow Minister—that we have to respect the devolution settlement. These matters are entirely within the legislative competence of the devolved Administrations. Some things remain reserved for the UK Government, but for a lot of the measures in the Bill, the legislative competence rests with the devolved Administrations and their Parliaments.

Andrew Gwynne

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Sir Mark, the hon. Lady protests too much here, because while it is true that she was questioning why, for example, the English fines could not be the rate of the Northern Irish fines, she was also pretty much calling for us to legislate for Scotland and Wales to bring consistency across the whole United Kingdom. Likewise with clause 5, she asks why we in this place are not legislating for Scotland in respect of the notices that will be displayed in Scotland. It is not our job to legislate where the Scottish Government do not want us to do so.

Andrew Gwynne

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No, I will answer the hon. Lady. My officials and I have been in contact throughout the production of this Bill with officials and Ministers in the devolved Administrations. I have had umpteen meetings personally with my counterparts in Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland, and there is an open offer. They are genuinely excited, Sir Mark, that we are able—as far as possible—to legislate with their consent to make smoke-free UK a reality, and we have sought to design this Bill in co-production with the devolved Administrations. None the less, there are some things that the devolved Administrations do not wish this Parliament to legislate on. For example, in respect of clause 5, on the notices, the Scottish Government have made it very clear that this is something they wish to do in their own way, in their own time, notwithstanding the fact that they have given us assurances that the measures will be in place to give enough time for retailers north of the border in Scotland to implement them. It is not for me to overrule the will of Scottish Ministers, who have the legislative competence to do this, if they do not wish this Parliament to do it on their behalf.

I hope that that answers future similar questions about the differences in different parts of the United Kingdom. We are legislating with the permission and consent of the three devolved Administration Governments, and we are not going to overstep. I have already said to my ministerial colleagues in other parts of the United Kingdom that if, during the course of the Bill through this House and the other place, they think, “That is not quite right and we need it to be amended,” or, “You know, it does make sense for Westminster to do it all in one go and do it for us,” we will respect that.

I have given Ministers my promise that if, as an afterthought, they want us to do some of this for them on their behalf during the Bill’s progress through its stages in both Houses, we will facilitate that. However, I am not going to overstep the powers given to me by the Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish Ministers to legislate on their behalf and to ensure that we have a United Kingdom-wide Bill that meets the separate and different needs, ambitions and expectations of our devolved settlement.

Andrew Gwynne

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I am grateful for that, and if any offence was caused by my earlier comments, I apologise to the hon. Lady. We need to set out clearly that we are doing something quite ingenious, and that is only because of the goodwill and the desire of Ministers from different political backgrounds in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland to get this legislation through the United Kingdom Parliament with the ability for them to then differ on consultations and other matters once the legislation is on the statute book. That would have been unheard of in years gone by, when relationships were not necessarily as good as they currently are between the devolved Administrations and the Westminster Government.

The same argument applies to clause 6. The sign will be a matter for Welsh Ministers. Although the framework of the sign is set down in the Bill for Wales, because that was how they wished us to approach it, any changes would be a matter for Welsh Ministers. The hon. Lady asked the hypothetical question whether, if we changed the notices again, there would be adequate consultation or time for retailers. We are not planning on making life difficult for retailers. We think that the wording here is the right wording. I do not take it to be legalistic and technical in the way that the hon. Member for Windsor seems to think it is. It is the same wording that applies now, with the exception that rather than talking about people “under the age of 18”, it will say

“anyone born on or before 1 January 2009”.

I think that is pretty clear.

The wording on the signage was tested during the public consultation in January, and more than 70% of respondents supported it. Many respondents noted that we need to mirror the existing wording to ensure accessibility. Other products are more niche and were not deemed to be necessary on the sign, but I think most people understand what a tobacco product is, and a cigar is certainly a tobacco product. I commend the clauses to the Committee.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 5 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 6 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 7

Ban on manufacture of snus etc

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

Andrew Gwynne

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I am grateful for the opportunity to open this debate. Amendments 60 to 62, 70 to 72 and 77 to 79 would create a more lenient penalty regime for the offence of possessing the relevant oral tobacco product, for example snus, with intent to supply it to another person in the course of business in England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, by creating an exception to the maximum penalty that a person can face for committing that offence if it is their first offence.

The amendments would establish that someone who admits to committing an offence for the first time would be liable on summary conviction or indictment to a fine not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale, which is £1,000, or provide instead for a discretionary caution in England and Wales, a recorded police warning in Scotland or a conditional caution in Northern Ireland. That is lower than the current maximum penalties, which are, on summary conviction, imprisonment for up to six months in England, Wales and Northern Ireland and 12 months in Scotland, a fine, or both; or, on conviction on indictment, imprisonment for up to two years, a fine, or both.

The amendments would remove the distinction between summary conviction and conviction on indictment for first-time offenders, meaning that the severity of the offence committed would not be taken into account in those cases as it would under current provisions. In creating a first-time offence, the amendments would have a similar effect to amendments that we have already discussed, so, if the Committee is content, I will not repeat myself, as my rationale for asking the shadow Minister to withdraw her amendment remains the same.

Andrew Gwynne

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I can easily clarify that point. The clause applies to relevant oral tobacco products, which are defined as tobacco products intended for oral use, not intended to be inhaled or chewed, and that consist wholly or partially of tobacco. It does not apply to tobacco-free nicotine pouches, which are sometimes informally referred to as snus; the Bill classes nicotine pouches as nicotine products.

Andrew Gwynne

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I am grateful to the shadow Minister for her comments. Although I appreciate her intention to establish greater leniency for first-time offenders, these amendments are not appropriate. Tobacco and vape offences must be taken seriously. We do not want to weaken the penalty regime for these offences, including offences relating to snus, by creating exceptions for first-time offenders or anyone who has committed these offences. We do not want to remove the ability of the court to issue a higher-level penalty, where that is viewed as proportionate for a particular case, for anyone convicted of these offences.

I turn to the shadow Minister’s comments on clauses 7 to 9, 56 to 58 and 73 to 75. Those clauses make it an offence to manufacture, sell or offer for sale, or possess with the intent to supply, a relevant oral tobacco product, such as snus, in England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. A relevant oral tobacco product is something intended for oral use—the clue is in the name: it is not intended to be inhaled or chewed and it consists wholly or partly of tobacco in powder or particulate form. That includes snus.

As the shadow Minister rightly pointed out, snus has been banned in the UK and the EU since 1992. Snus was banned as it was a novel tobacco product that is harmful to health. Snus contains harmful compounds that have been demonstrated to cause cancer, including cancers of the mouth. The manufacture of snus with a view to the product being supplied for consumption in the United Kingdom or through the travel retail sector is currently banned, as she rightly pointed out, under the Tobacco and Related Products Regulations 2016. These clauses re-enact that ban on manufacture but, unlike the 2016 regulations, do not limit it to supplying the UK or travel retail sector. In effect, that extends the ban to include manufacturing snus for export. That simplifies enforcement and reduces the possibility of such harmful products being available within the United Kingdom.

Andrew Gwynne

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I will have to get back to the hon. Lady on that point. We will write to Committee members to update them, because I do not have that information to hand or in my mind.

As I was saying, the supply of snus for consumption in any part of the United Kingdom or through the travel retail sector is also already banned under the Tobacco and Related Products Regulations 2016, and these clauses recast the existing ban as a general ban on sale. The ban on possession of snus for intent to supply support the ban on sale, while preserving the current position under the Tobacco and Related Products Regulations 2016, which allows possession of snus for personal use.

Under these clauses, it will not be an offence to possess snus for personal use or for personal gifting to friends and family; this is not about criminalising individuals who possess snus for personal use. These clauses maintain and simplify the ban, in place since 1992, on the sale of a harmful tobacco product. The clauses also make the prohibition on snus more comprehensive and make the legislation clearer and more accessible. We have no intention of allowing a banned and harmful product into the United Kingdom market. I commend the clauses to the Committee.

The hon. Lady asks about “all reasonable steps”. As we have already discussed, it will be for the discretion of trading standards as to whether all reasonable steps have been taken. As we know, they take a proportionate approach to these matters, and we know that their current procedures work. There is no expectation that they will not work with the legislation before us.

What would prevent a retailer from just giving some of these products to a customer, rather than selling them, to get round the law? Well, there is “brand promotion”, which includes free giveaways anyway. That covers all tobacco products—so it covers that situation.

Andrew Gwynne

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The hon. Lady need not worry so much, because I have notes to clarify her points. Many people ask why we are banning snus but only gradually raising the age of sale for cigarettes, given that snus is less harmful than cigarettes. Consumption of any tobacco product is harmful. We heard that—[Interruption.]. We heard that very loudly and clearly from somebody upstairs, but also from the four chief medical officers. They made it very clear that there is no safe level of tobacco consumption and that tobacco is uniquely harmful as a product in whatever form it is consumed.

It is this Government’s policy to support people to quit all forms of tobacco. Snus has been banned in the UK and across the EU since 1992. It was banned because it was a harmful novel tobacco product at the time, and it still is. It was agreed to prevent this new harmful product from ever coming on to the market. Why on earth would we now decide to give the tobacco industry a get out of jail free card and allow a product that has never ever been allowed on the market in the United Kingdom to enter the marketplace, irrespective of the age of sale?