Tuesday 26th November 2024
(1 year, 8 months ago)
Commons ChamberTobacco and Vapes Act 2026 Read Hansard Text Watch Debate
18:46 - The House divided: - Ayes: 415 / Noes: 47 - Question accordingly agreed to.
This text is a record of ministerial contributions to a debate held as part of the Tobacco and Vapes Act 2026 passage through Parliament.
In 1993, the House of Lords Pepper vs. Hart decision provided that statements made by Government Ministers may be taken as illustrative of legislative intent as to the interpretation of law.
This extract highlights statements made by Government Ministers along with contextual remarks by other members. The full debate can be read here
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
The Secretary of State for Health and Social Care (Wes Streeting)
I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.
Today, across the UK, 350 young people aged 25 and under will take up smoking. It is a decision that the vast majority will later regret. They will try to quit again and again, but most will not be able to break their addiction. They will suffer strokes, diabetes, heart disease, cancer, stillbirth, dementia or asthma as a direct result of smoking. For two in three of those young people, the habit they are beginning today will eventually kill them.
Smoking takes 80,000 lives a year and causes one in four deaths from cancer in England, a hospital admission almost every minute and 100 GP appointments an hour. It is the leading cause of sickness, disability and death in our country. And today, Members of this House can consign it to the history books.
The Bill before the House will raise the legal age of the purchase of tobacco by one year every year, creating the first smokefree generation and, eventually, a smokefree nation. The Bill will enable the Government to extend the current indoor smoking ban to certain outdoor settings, and we will consult on banning smoking outside schools and hospitals and in playgrounds, protecting children and vulnerable people from the harms of second-hand smoke.
The Bill will come down on the vaping industry like a ton of bricks, to prevent a new generation of children and young people from getting hooked on nicotine. Taken together, these measures add up to the most significant public health intervention in a generation. They are a giant leap in this Government’s mission to build a healthy society and, in doing so, they will help to build a more healthy economy too.
Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)
Can the Secretary of State imagine the plight of a shop assistant, some decades hence, when a middle-aged or elderly person presents themselves seeking to buy a packet of cigarettes? Is that shop assistant really expected to demand their bone fides?
Wes Streeting
I can not only imagine it, but I recently experienced a similar situation. There I was in Barkingside Sainsbury’s one evening, only weeks ago, buying a bottle of wine to have with dinner and, to my surprise, I was asked for my ID. I am afraid it is just a burden that those of us with youthful vim and vigour in our early 40s have to bear, and it is a price I am willing to pay—for good moisturiser. However, there is a serious point. Along with many others that I am sure we will encounter during the passage of the Bill, this is one of the cynical arguments being deployed by the mendacious smoking lobby, which would have us believe that, decades hence, there will be people who are at the margins—one aged 41 and one aged 40, for example—being asked for ID on the sale of cigarettes. The point is that the Bill will create a smokefree generation. Young people growing up in our country today will not be smokers, because we will have stopped the start. We will do everything we can to support adults who are currently smoking, because the vast majority want to break the habit but struggle to do so.
Simon Hoare (North Dorset) (Con)
If only proof of age was still asked of me.
The Secretary of State knows that I support the Bill and will vote for it this evening, but he will know that rural pubs are increasingly marginal in their operations. He has referred to further powers, post consultation, that may stop smoking outside in particular places once the Bill is on the statute book. Will he put the minds of rural MPs, from across the House, at rest by saying that he does not envisage at any point, either now or post-Royal Assent, the inclusion of a ban on smoking outside rural pubs? That would be a further nail in their business model at a time when we need them.
Wes Streeting
I was going to address that point later in my speech, but let me address it now. It is not often that a Government comment on leaks or welcome the events following a leak; I do not want to encourage future leaks, either. However, it is well known and a matter of accurate reporting, in this case, that we were considering an extension of the ban on outdoor smoking to include outdoor hospitality, including pubs, as the hon. Gentleman mentioned. Because of that leak, representations were heard from Members from across the House, including the hon. Gentleman, my hon. Friend the Member for Great Grimsby and Cleethorpes (Melanie Onn) and others. We took those representations very seriously because we know the hospitality industry has been through a torrid time, and not just in rural communities. I accept that rural pubs face a big challenge, but even high street pubs in towns and cities are struggling.
Our approach to public health always has to weigh up the upside benefits to public health against the downside consequences elsewhere. It is not in the national interest to see our high streets further suffer, so I reassure the hon. Member for North Dorset (Simon Hoare) and the hospitality industry—although I think it feels reassured on this already—that we will not be consulting on extending the powers to outdoor hospitality spaces. I hope that reassures people, as we embark on consultation on the measures that I am outlining today, that the Government listen, engage and consult seriously. Consultation is genuine with this Government.
Chris Vince (Harlow) (Lab/Co-op)
I will not comment on how young I look, but I still get asked for ID when buying non-alcoholic wine.
It is 10 years since the smoking ban came into operation and there are 1.9 million fewer smokers in the UK. Does that show the Secretary of State the difference that a Government that take the matter seriously can make?
Wes Streeting
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I am really proud of the impact that the last Labour Government made in reducing smoking harms and the prevalence of smoking in our country.
That brings me on to the next point that I wanted to make. President Truman famously said that it is amazing what you can accomplish
“if you do not care who gets the credit.”
When I first sat down with Rachel Sylvester of The Times in January 2023 and flew a kite to start a debate that a Labour Government might introduce a ban on children and young people today ever buying cigarettes, of the type introduced by our sister party in New Zealand, I was not necessarily convinced my own side would buy it, but I thought it was a debate worth having. I never imagined, in a million years, that I would tune into a Conservative party conference speech by a Conservative Prime Minister announcing his intention to legislate for such a ban. I will do something I do not often do with Conservative party conference speeches and quote extensively—and approvingly—what the then Prime Minister said.
“As Prime Minister I have an obligation to do what I think is the right thing for our country in the long term. And as Conservatives, we have never shirked that responsibility.”
I say that bit through gritted teeth.
“We have always been at the front of society, leading it—”
Who wrote this?
“And when we have the tools at our disposal…to do for our children what we all, in our heart of hearts, know is right, we must act, we must lead…we must put the next generation first.”
In that spirit, I pay tribute to the former Prime Minister, the right hon. Member for Richmond and Northallerton (Rishi Sunak), for picking up the proposal and running with it despite opposition from his own party. That took courage. While we have taken steps to improve this Bill compared with the one put forward by the previous Government, I hope that hon. and right hon. Members on the Conservative Benches will follow his lead, showing that the one nation tradition still has a constituency in the modern Conservative party, and vote for this Bill in the national interest.
The Darzi investigation into the NHS set out the twin challenges facing me, my Department and this Government. The national health service is broken; it is going through the worst crisis in its history. At the point we came into office, waiting lists stood at 7.6 million. We had worse cancer survival rates than most comparable countries, ambulances not arriving on time, the number of GPs falling and dentistry deserts across the country.
Some of the most shocking findings in Lord Darzi’s report, however, were about not the sickness in our NHS, but the sickness in our nation. Children are less healthy today than they were a decade ago. Life expectancy was extended by three and a half years over the course of the last Labour Government, but in the past 14 years, it has grown by just four months. Brits now live shorter lives than people in any other country in western Europe, and we spend fewer years living in good health, becoming sicker sooner. Those are huge costs, borne by all of us as individuals. It means less time in which we are able to live our lives to the full, to do all the things we love and to spend time with the people we love. Sickness is forcing many of us out of work long before retirement age, leaving us dependent on welfare, ridding us of the purpose and belonging that work provides, and for everyone else, it means higher costs to us as taxpayers. Our sick society is holding back our economy, and that is why we should act.
Layla Moran (Oxford West and Abingdon) (LD)
Will the Secretary of State give way?
Wes Streeting
I give way to the Chair of the Health and Social Care Committee.
Layla Moran
In the spirit of cross-party working, I want to congratulate Members on the Conservative Benches for deciding, when the former Prime Minister put this policy forward, that it was a priority. It shows how important it is that No. 10 gets behind this kind of thing, and I hope we learn that lesson for the Government’s missions.
I gently say, however, that it is not just the evil tobacco lobby that has concerns about the age escalator. I completely agree with everything that the Secretary of State says, but if smoking is that much of an issue, why are we not just banning it for those under an age of, say, 25? That would have been another way to go. What is the thinking behind an age escalator, as opposed to a ban for those under a particular age so that people do not need new ID every time?
Wes Streeting
I recognise that there are people who have the freedom and the liberty to smoke today, the vast majority of whom, by the way, want to stop and struggle to do so. That is why we are announcing support to enable people to do that, with £70 million of investment in smoking cessation services. That is important, but for a future where people are no longer able to smoke, a phased approach is the right thing to do. It is also essential for the health of the individual, the nation and our economy.
Since 2018, our productivity has dropped by £25 billion due to worsening health alone. Some 900,000 more people are off work than would have been on pre-pandemic trends. That is more people than are employed by Tesco, Sainsbury’s and Asda put together. Smoking alone accounts for more than £18 billion in lost productivity. The rising tide of ill health, coupled with our ageing society, presents an existential challenge to our health service. If we do not act now, ever-increasing demands for healthcare threaten to overwhelm and bankrupt the NHS. That is the choice that we face.
Andrew Rosindell (Romford) (Con)
Surely the Secretary of State realises that banning things rarely works. When tobacco was banned in South Africa during the covid pandemic, 95% of the trade went underground. Surely we should be promoting the concept of freedom with responsibility and allowing people to make choices about their own lives. I am glad that he goes shopping in Barkingside—he should go and speak to the shopkeepers in Collier Row, where local retailers will lose a lot of potential business if the ban comes in.
Wes Streeting
I am grateful for the intervention, because I anticipate that there will be similar arguments made from the Opposition Benches, particularly from a right-wing libertarian perspective. I want to engage seriously with those arguments.
Wes Streeting
I will just respond to the point made by the hon. Member for Romford (Andrew Rosindell).
There is no liberty in addiction; there is no freedom in addiction. The logical extension of the libertarian argument the hon. Gentleman puts forward would be the end of the ban on indoor smoking. If we should take a live and let live approach, why not legalise cannabis? Why not legalise cocaine? We prescribe certain harmful substances, and there is, I think, an unanswerable case on tobacco because it is uniquely addictive and uniquely harmful. That is why we will take a tougher approach with this harmful substance than we would with something such as alcohol, or other harms such as gambling.
Jonathan Davies
The Secretary of State stole my line when he said that there is no freedom in addiction. I just want to thank him for his pragmatic approach to the hospitality industry, which has made representations to me on this matter. May I also impress on him that vapes are a valuable quitting aid for many adults, but many young people are now taking to vaping when they have never actually smoked at all? Can he say a little bit more about how we will address that?
Wes Streeting
I will certainly come on to the action that we are taking on vaping, and the case for it. I welcome the contribution that my hon. Friend has made in his first few months as a Member of this House. He brings enormous expertise and experience, particularly on health, which we very much value here in the Chamber.
One choice would be to continue paying an ever heavier price for failure. That is the road that we were heading down, under the previous Government. Our NHS already takes £4 for every £10 spent by the Government day to day. We are on course to go from being a nation with a national health service to a health service with a nation attached to it. It is projected that by the end of this Parliament, 4.3 million people will be on sickness benefit if we fail to act. Smoking could cause 300,000 patients to be diagnosed with cancer over the next five years, including 3,000 for whom that is the result of exposure to second-hand smoke. That is what happens if we only ever treat the symptoms of ill health. We end up spending more on the NHS than ever before, but with worse care for patients, a ballooning welfare bill due to more and more people being out of work, stagnant economic growth, and the heaviest tax burden in 70 years. In short, we will be paying more, but getting less.
Britain is like a ship with a hole. We are constantly battling to chuck enough water overboard to keep us afloat, as more and more floods in. We must break out of this cycle. Britain can break out of this cycle, but only if we are serious about tackling the causes of ill health, and shift our focus from treating the symptoms to preventing them. Plugging the hole in the ship is how we get back to growth, how we reduce the burden of taxation, and how we ensure that this Government can intrude more lightly on people’s lives.
Sir Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con)
The argument that the Secretary of State puts forward is essentially one for banning smoking altogether. What he said earlier was misleading; he suggested that people of a particular age group will not be able to smoke. They will not be able to buy cigarettes, but they can still smoke. They can cadge cigarettes off other people. Is this not a half-baked measure?
Wes Streeting
I am sure that the hon. Gentleman was not accusing me of misleading the House. The argument that he puts forward is used against all sorts of laws and prohibitions. Most people in this country are law-abiding citizens who follow the law. In my constituency today, there will be people dumping fridges and mattresses on street corners—fly-tipping—because they are irresponsible and not law-abiding citizens. We will not always catch them, either through closed-circuit television or local authority enforcement, but that does not mean that we should not tackle them when they do those things.
By phasing in a generational smoking ban, we are taking a measured and reasonable way of creating a smokefree country. That is the right way to proceed, and it is sensible. I know that he does not agree, but he must accept the trade-off—the choices that he is making for the Opposition. First, he is accepting that people will pay a higher price for their healthcare, either through taxes, if he still believes in the national health service, or through the cost to the individual of their healthcare. Secondly, he must concede that, through the harm caused by smoking, he is fuelling welfare dependency. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions had a point when she said earlier that Labour is the party of work, and the Conservatives are the party of welfare. That is the logical conclusion of the hon. Gentleman’s opposition.
Anna Dixon (Shipley) (Lab)
I congratulate my right hon. Friend on introducing this once-in-a generation public health measure. As he acknowledges, too many people are dying young from the effects of smoking. They are losing out on being grandparents and on the opportunity to live a long and healthy life. Smoking is a leading cause of health inequality, so does he agree that the proposals will help close the shocking gap in life expectancy between the rich and poor?
Wes Streeting
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I am afraid that one of my first experiences of death was watching my grandmother die a very long, slow, painful death from lung cancer as a result of a life of chain smoking. That is the consequence of this cruel addiction. People who start smoking come to regret it. They struggle to stop, and I am afraid that the stolen years that they could have spent with children and grandchildren are only part of the cost. Part of my argument today, particularly to some Opposition Members, is about better use of public money and reducing the taxation burden. Other arguments, too, may have some currency with Members who might be opposed to these measures for libertarian reasons. We should not forget for a moment the impact of this cruel addiction and the harms caused by smoking on people’s quality of life, family life, and memories.
Wes Streeting
I must make progress, otherwise we will not hear from anyone else in this debate—and I think that it will be a debate.
Taking action requires a reforming Government who are unafraid to take on the orthodoxies of both the right and the left. As I said, my right hon. Friend the Work and Pensions Secretary is today proposing radical reforms to the welfare system. Earlier this month, I set out a package of reforms to drive better productivity in the NHS. Today, we are proposing the biggest public health reform in a generation: phasing out smoking for the next generation by raising the legal age at which tobacco can be sold by one year every year, so that anyone aged 15 and under today will never legally be sold cigarettes. That will phase out smoking altogether.
Almost 20 years ago, the last Labour Government introduced the ban on smoking indoors in public places, as my hon. Friend the Member for Harlow (Chris Vince) said. We heard many of the same arguments, frankly, from opponents of that measure as we hear from opponents of the Bill today. They are free to correct me if I am wrong, but I do not think that Opposition Members who oppose the Bill are also proposing scrapping the indoor smoking ban. We have political consensus on the issue because of its success. The year after the ban came into force in 2007, hospital admissions for heart attacks dropped by 1,200. Admissions for children with asthma had been rising by 5% a year before the ban. After it was introduced, admissions fell by 18% in just three years. Since 2007, smoking rates have been cut by over a third, and as our understanding of second-hand smoke grew, the ban sparked a cultural change. People no longer thought it acceptable to smoke in front of their children, and many stepped outside, even in their own homes. It is time to build on that success.
No smoker intends to cause harm to others, but that is unintentionally what they do through second-hand smoke. The harms from second-hand smoke are less than from actively smoking, but the evidence shows they are still substantial. If people can smell smoke, they are inhaling it. Smoke near schools and playgrounds exposes children to smoke. Hospitals, by definition, have high numbers of medically vulnerable people on their grounds. The Bill will allow Government to extend the ban on indoor smoking to certain outdoor settings, and we will consult on banning smoking outside schools, playgrounds and hospitals to protect children and the most vulnerable.
As we act to prevent harms from smoking, we must also tackle the rising problem of youth vaping. It has more than doubled in the last five years, and one in four 11 to 15-year-olds tried vaping last year. A new generation of children is getting hooked on nicotine, and there should be no doubt about the cause, and no illusion that this has happened by accident. On any high street in the country, we can see shop windows filled with brightly coloured packaging for vapes, with flavours like blue razz lemonade and tongue twisters sour apple. Those products are designed, made, packaged, marketed and sold deliberately to children. This industry has cynically targeted its harmful products to kids.
Action is long overdue. We promised to stamp out youth vaping in our manifesto, and the Bill delivers the change that we promised. It will close loopholes that allow vapes to be sold or given away to children, provide powers to regulate the flavours, packaging and display of vapes, and introduce on-the-spot fines of £200 for under-age sales. Just as we took action on the advertising and sponsorship of tobacco products, we will bring the law into line for vaping products, too.
Wera Hobhouse
I do not know whether the Secretary of State will still be in the Chamber when I talk about Spice-spiked vapes. I see a gap in the Bill: it does not talk about refills. The harmful practice of spiking vapes with Spice comes from the refills. I hope that the Government will listen to my concerns and be flexible, as they have already shown themselves to be in other places. Perhaps, during the passage of the Bill, we can include something about refills. Would he agree to that?
Wes Streeting
We want to work in a genuinely collaborative and cross-party way, and I know that is true right across the House. As I look at the Opposition Benches, including Conservative Benches, I see long-standing campaigners for action on smoking and vaping. We want to listen and engage.
I feel strongly about the matter, as does the Prime Minister. In our manifesto, we set out Labour’s mission to improve the health of the nation. We will be far better served as a country if this is a truly national mission, and if we come together in common cause for action on public health.
Wes Streeting
In that spirit, I will give way to the hon. Gentleman—and then to some of my hon. Friends.
Sir Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)
Can the Secretary of State tell us if there is any place for vapes as a step-down, in the context of the addictive aspects of tobacco? I seem to remember that when vaping first came along, it was heralded as a way to help wean people from their tobacco addictions. Sadly, it has turned into something else, as he describes, and starts children on the road towards nicotine addiction, but does it have a role as a step-down?
Wes Streeting
The right hon. Member is right to make that distinction. As a stop-smoking tool, vaping has a part to play. For smokers, vaping is a better alternative—a route away from smoking. We do not want to throw the baby out with the bathwater. What we are interested in tackling is the scourge of youth vaping and the extent to which young people have been cynically addicted. It is important to say that we do not yet know the full extent of the harms caused by vaping, but we do know two things: first, it is better to vape than to smoke—that is why we are striking the balance in this legislation—and secondly, vapes are harmful. Ask any teacher in the country; they will talk about the signs of nicotine addiction that they see in their pupils, and about having to monitor school toilets to stop children congregating to vape. It is urgent and necessary to act today to protect this generation of kids from a new addiction, and that is exactly what we will do.
Peter Prinsley (Bury St Edmunds and Stowmarket) (Lab)
As an ear, nose and throat surgeon, I can attest to the absolutely desperate trouble that cigarettes have caused over many generations. Implementing this measure is one of the best things that this Parliament could possibly do, and I expect that the measure will be widely supported all over the House. I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for introducing it.
Wes Streeting
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that intervention, not least because of the expertise that he brings to the House as a clinician. We are well served by his expertise in debates on the health of the nation.
Opposite me sit many opponents of the Bill and of the Government’s prevention agenda. I acknowledge that their opposition is based on genuine, sincere beliefs about the limits of government and the size of the state, but I appeal to them by saying that the Bill is in the national interest and, ironically, in their ideological interest.
Robin Swann (South Antrim) (UUP)
I thank the Secretary of State for making a number of times the point that this is a truly national Bill that applies across the United Kingdom. I thank him for including Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales in the measures. When we in this place consider measures to promote health, we should do so equally for the entirety of the United Kingdom.
Wes Streeting
That is a very helpful intervention because it gives me the opportunity to say thank you to my counterparts in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. This is a genuinely four-nations Bill, and through it, we have an opportunity to create a smokefree generation in every corner of our country.
I say to people who have an ideological objection to the Bill that if they believe in lower taxes, as they say they do, and in maintaining a national health service, as they say they do, they cannot duck this simple equation: an ageing population plus a sicker society equals more spending on the NHS, paid through higher taxes. The Bill is just one measure, but it will make a significant difference to the health of our society, and to the balance of that equation.
The question that opponents of the Bill must answer is this: if they want our health and care services to continue having to spend £3 billion every year on the symptoms of smoking, are they willing to accept that that means higher taxes or higher healthcare charges for their constituents? Are they happy for their constituents to shoulder the welfare bill for smokers falling out of the workforce? Those are the consequences of what we are voting on today. Higher taxes and higher welfare are not the Labour way.
There are arguments about liberty from those who oppose based on libertarian belief. They say that the state should not deny individuals the choice to smoke if they want to, but three quarters of smokers want to stop and wish they had never started. It takes a smoker an average of 30 attempts to quit before they manage it. By definition, an addict is not free; there is no choice, no liberty and no freedom in addiction. Nor is choice afforded to anyone inhaling second-hand smoke. Tobacco is not only highly addictive but uniquely harmful. Yes, some smokers can quit, but most who want to cannot. Those who have help to quit are three times more likely to succeed. That is why the Government are, as I said, investing £70 million in smoking cessation services—an investment that will pay for itself several times over—but prevention is better than cure, and that is why we are taking action, through the Bill, to stop the start.
In conclusion, this Bill marks the start of a decade in which we will shift the focus of healthcare from treatment to prevention; take serious action on not just smoking, but obesity; reform the NHS, so that it catches problems earlier and gives patients the tools that they need to stay out of hospital; harness the revolution taking place in life sciences; and fundamentally transform the NHS, so that it predicts illness and prevents it from ever taking hold. That is the future available to us, and it is the future we must realise if we are going to put our welfare system, health service and public finances on a sustainable footing. It starts with this Bill. Smokers are more likely to need NHS services, be admitted to hospital, drop out of the workforce and on to welfare, and need social care years earlier than if they did not smoke. By taking the measures set out in the Bill, we are putting the UK on the road to becoming smokefree, building a healthier, wealthier nation with a health service fit for the future and leading the world as we do so. I commend this Bill to the House.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Caroline Nokes)
I call the shadow Secretary of State.
Jim Allister (North Antrim) (TUV)
I will vote for this Bill. I admit that I am sceptical about the enforceability of the age escalator, but fundamentally the legislation addresses a huge problem in our society. There can be no doubt that smoking is a killer, so it is our responsibility to seek to diminish the death toll. Vaping is a totally unregulated sector, and I fear that it is a gateway to smoking for many young people. Therefore, it is right that it, too, comes within the ambit of the Bill.
The Secretary of State said this afternoon that this is a “four-nations Bill”. I welcome that, and I trust that it is right. That is the point I want to test in my contribution, and I will seek reassurance from the Minister about it. The reason I want to test it is that Northern Ireland, and Northern Ireland alone, is still subject to the EU’s tobacco directive. We are subject to the EU’s tobacco directive because it is one of the 289 EU laws listed in annex 2 of the protocol—or the Windsor framework, as it is now called—that remain in force in a part of this United Kingdom. Article 24 of the tobacco directive says:
“Member States may not…prohibit or restrict the placing on the market of tobacco or related products”.
Does this Bill, by its necessary steps, restrict the placing on the market of tobacco? If it does, it will fall foul of the tobacco directive and will therefore be unenforceable in Northern Ireland, because of our ridiculous subjection to foreign laws that we do not make and cannot change.
We have an illustration of what might happen, because in 2022 Denmark sought to introduce almost identical legislation. It had to withdraw it, and in withdrawing it, the Health Minister told the Danish Parliament on 6 April 2022:
“The ministry…therefore considers that a ban on the sale of tobacco and nicotine products to people born in 2010 or later would require an amendment to the European Tobacco Products Directive”.
On that basis, they withdrew it. Earlier this year, the Irish Republic was minded to introduce legislation like this, but it did not proceed for the same reason.
If we are in a situation where a part of this United Kingdom quite absurdly cannot be governed by laws that this Parliament wishes to make, we are in a very sad situation indeed. It is my fear that, like in Denmark, the imprimatur would not be forthcoming from the tobacco directive and we could therefore have a situation where laws that we want to make and apply throughout the United Kingdom cannot be applied because of our subservience to foreign jurisdiction. If that is so, it will be an appalling situation. The House will have an opportunity to do something about this when my private Member’s Bill comes before it on 6 December, and I trust that Members will take that opportunity to liberate Northern Ireland from the bind of foreign jurisdiction and foreign law.
There are vested interests who will try to challenge the Bill’s applicability in Northern Ireland because of the tobacco directive, and I am fearful of the line that the courts might take, because we have had some examples. This House passed—for better or for worse—the Northern Ireland Troubles (Legacy and Reconciliation) Act 2023. It also passed the Safety of Rwanda (Asylum and Immigration) Act 2024. I am not commenting on their merits; I am making it clear that when they went to the High Court in Belfast, both were declared inoperable in Northern Ireland. Why? Because of the supremacy of EU law.
If that were to happen with this Bill, it would be an absolute scandal. We would not be able to afford the people of Northern Ireland the same health protections that the Bill will afford to everyone else in the United Kingdom. And why not? Because we are subject to a foreign jurisdiction. It is the lifting of that jurisdiction that will bring us liberty to be governed as this House would wish us to be governed, and I trust that the Minister will be able to assure us that those fears are unfounded, that the Danes were wrong to withdraw their Act, and that our courts will—
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Care (Andrew Gwynne)
I am grateful to the hon. and learned Gentleman for giving way. I fully understand his concern. That is why this Government need to give credit to the previous Government, who worked so hard to make this a four-nation approach. I want to give him and the House the assurance that it is the responsibility of the UK Government to ensure the compatibility of the Bill with the Windsor framework. The Government have taken into account all domestic and international obligations in bringing forward this Bill today.
Jim Allister
It gives me no assurance if the Government’s commitment is to ensure compliance with the Windsor framework, because it is the Windsor framework that imposes EU law on Northern Ireland. Because the tobacco directive is one of the laws listed in annex 2 that continue to apply to Northern Ireland, it could trump this Bill. There is no point in the Government saying to this House, or to my constituents, that they will abide by the Windsor framework, because the Windsor framework binds us to EU law. It is only by setting it aside that we can have liberty.
Andrew Gwynne
I am sorry to detain the House, but I make it clear that this is a United Kingdom law. It covers all four nations of the United Kingdom, and we are assured that it complies with the requirements of the Windsor framework. This law will stand.
Jim Allister
The previous Government told this House—and Government lawyers probably said the same—that the Rwanda Act would apply to Northern Ireland and that the legacy Act was unchallengeable, yet it turned out that both fell under the supremacy of EU law. On the face of it, the tobacco directive suppresses this Bill and still has legal force in Northern Ireland. If that is how it turns out, I would like to hear a commitment from the Minister that the Government will override any suppression of this law in Northern Ireland and stand up for UK sovereignty in my part of the United Kingdom.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Care (Andrew Gwynne)
It is a pleasure to close this debate on behalf of the Government. I commend my hon. Friends the Members for City of Durham (Mary Kelly Foy), for Newcastle upon Tyne East and Wallsend (Mary Glindon), for Chatham and Aylesford (Tristan Osborne), for Suffolk Coastal (Jenny Riddell-Carpenter), for Worthing West (Dr Cooper), for Southampton Itchen (Darren Paffey), for Mid Cheshire (Andrew Cooper), for Cardiff West (Mr Barros-Curtis), for Dartford (Jim Dickson), for Bolton North East (Kirith Entwistle), for Hartlepool (Mr Brash) and for Bolton West (Phil Brickell) and, on the Opposition Benches, the hon. Members for North Dorset (Simon Hoare), for Harrow East (Bob Blackman), for Lewes (James MacCleary), for Aberdeenshire North and Moray East (Seamus Logan), for Bath (Wera Hobhouse) and for South Antrim (Robin Swann), the hon. and learned Member for North Antrim (Jim Allister) and the hon. Member for Newbury (Mr Dillon), for a series of outstanding contributions this afternoon. Many of us on the Labour Benches remember the last Labour Government’s proud history of public health measures—indeed, some of us were in this place at the time. From the indoor smoking ban to putting an end to cigarette advertising, we took the bold action to drive down smoking prevalence, and the country is still feeling the benefits of those policies today. However, after 14 years of public health neglect, we have seen much of our hard work squandered. Health inequalities have grown worse, and life expectancy is stalling. Most appallingly, life expectancy is going into reverse in some communities.
Afzal Khan (Manchester Rusholme) (Lab)
I welcome this Bill. Some 6,000 children in Greater Manchester take up smoking each year, allowing tobacco and vape companies to profit from increasing health inequalities. If we eradicate smoking, Greater Manchester’s economy will gain over £2.5 billion each year, funds that could be allocated to our health and social care sector. Does the Minister agree that if we follow the recommendations of the smoking review by Professor Javed Khan OBE, who did an excellent job on that review, we have the unique opportunity to both save lives and reduce poverty, creating a healthier and more equal society?
Andrew Gwynne
I thank my hon. Friend for that contribution, not least because it allows me to place on record this Government’s thanks to Javed Khan for the work he did in his review of smoking. My hon. Friend has hit the nail on the head, because in the parts of Greater Manchester that he and I represent, health inequalities are stark and visible. We are going to turn them around. Our health mission pledged to tackle the social inequalities that influence health, and to ensure that children have the very best start possible, in which they are given the building blocks for a healthy life. That will be an immense challenge, but every member of this Government is up for the battle.
Colleagues have made a number of points, and I will try to answer as many as I can in the time we have left. First, I pay tribute to the hon. Member for Harrow East for the work he has done on this issue over a number of years. I assure him that all tobacco products are covered by this Bill, including the chewing tobacco product that he referred to. My hon. Friend the Member for City of Durham, who has also been a passionate spokesperson for tackling smoking harm, is absolutely right to raise the issue of article 5.3. The new Labour Government take very seriously their obligations as a party to the World Health Organisation’s framework convention on tobacco control, and we remain fully committed to that convention, including the important commitment, under article 5.3, to protecting public health policies on tobacco control from
“commercial and other vested interests of the tobacco industry”.
The shadow Secretary of State, the right hon. Member for Melton and Syston (Edward Argar), referred to the powers to bring in smokefree places. We will consult on extending smokefree places to include areas outside schools, children’s playgrounds and hospitals in England. We believe that strikes the right balance between protecting the most vulnerable and recognising the pressures facing the hospitality sector. I want to make the shadow Secretary of State aware, though, that the Bill was designed in full consultation with, and to meet the needs of, the devolved Governments across the whole of the United Kingdom. It is a UK Bill, with powers that meet the requirements of each of the component parts of our country, and I reiterate that as far as England is concerned, this Government will seek to consult on schools, children’s playgrounds and hospitals only.
A number of Members, including the hon. Member for Harrow East, raised the topic of stop smoking services. We are putting an extra £70 million into local stop smoking services, which could help with up to 200,000 successful quits a year. We are still rolling out a smokefree pregnancy incentive scheme, which will support pregnant women in quitting and ensure that more babies do not suffer a hit to their life chances before they are even born.
Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
I am very sorry that I was not in the Chamber for the beginning of the debate. I have very strong views on this matter, because my father died of cancer—I quit 20 years ago, thank God. It occurs to me that we have heard from other people who have quit, and that we who have quit could be mobilised to help others quit. Why do the Government not use us? We could do a lot of good and provide a lot of help.
Andrew Gwynne
I think the hon. Gentleman has just talked himself into a job. He is absolutely right that the best people to advocate for stopping smoking are former smokers.
We will still encourage adult smokers to switch to vaping through Swap to Stop in England, and I am delighted that localities have asked for over half a million starter kits so far. On advertising regulations, of course the consultation will take place after Royal Assent, but I hope that I can assure the hon. Member for Harrow East that we will take away his point about ensuring that the NHS can still advertise Swap to Stop under those regulations. On a tobacco industry levy, fiscal matters are for the Treasury, but I am sure that his views and those of others have been communicated to Treasury Ministers.
The hon. Member for Lewes mentioned the rise of the black market. This is a line that has been parroted by the tobacco industry for years, so we need to spell out the facts. Whenever Governments of any guise have introduced targeted tobacco control measures, the black market actually has not prospered. Consumption of illegal tobacco has gone from 15 billion cigarettes nearly 25 years ago to just one 10th of that amount last year, and when the last Labour Government raised the age of sale from 16 to 18, the number of illicit cigarettes fell by a quarter. However, this requires better enforcement, and we will use every second of the generously long buffer period to support businesses in preparing for and implementing the changes, including through information campaigns. We are providing £10 million to trading standards to increase their capacity and capabilities next year, and there is £100 million for Border Force and His Majesty’s Revenue and Customs over the next five years to tackle illicit and under-age sales. The Bill also allows trading standards to issue on-the-spot fines of £200, and to reinvest the proceeds of those fines, and indeed the licensing regime, back into further enforcement.
Bob Blackman
Will the Minister consider ensuring that the fines are raised by at least inflation each year? Fines could be increased on a scale, to make sure that they keep progress with changes.
Andrew Gwynne
We have already doubled the fine proposed in the previous Government’s Bill, which is a step. I listened very carefully to the hon. Gentleman’s argument, and he might wish to pursue it in Committee, should he be fortunate enough to be a Committee member. I look forward to the debates we might have.
A number of questions about the licensing regime were posed by the shadow Secretary of State, as well as by the hon. Member for North Shropshire (Helen Morgan), the hon. Member for North Dorset (Simon Hoare) and others. I reassure the House that across the sector, there is broad consensus among retailers about a licensing scheme; more than four fifths of them have expressed their support. Unlike alcohol, there is no licensing requirement for tobacco. A lot of people outside this House would find that hard to understand. They assume that convenience stores, supermarkets and other places that sell alcohol are licensed in a similar way to sell tobacco products, but that is not the case. We will bring in a licensing scheme, because we know that will have a huge public health impact, as other licensing regimes do.
Tristan Osborne
When I was on a council, I had a portfolio managing licensing. Councils already manage significant licensing functions, so it would be very convenient to simply add this function to those. That would not necessarily be a significant bureaucratic hurdle, as has been said.
Andrew Gwynne
Local government will take the lead on this matter, and we will consult widely on how we bring forward the licensing regime, and on how we implement it through secondary legislation, following that consultation. An impact assessment will be prepared before the secondary legislation is introduced, but I want to work with local government across England—I am sure that ministerial counterparts in other parts of the United Kingdom seeking to bring in a licensing regime will do the same—to ensure that we get this right for local government. That includes ensuring that the cost of running a licensing regime is met by the regime itself.
Mr Brash
We have mentioned the fact that local government is responsible for public health. I have had our director of public health email me just today to say how supportive they are of this Bill. Local government wants this opportunity to try to improve the health of local people. The fears that local government would be under pressure are simply wrong, are they not?
Andrew Gwynne
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. From the engagement that I have had with members across all parties in local government—elected members, officers and directors of public health—I know that they want these measures. They are up for introducing them, and for helping us to get them right.
The hon. Member for North Shropshire raised the issue of ID checks, as did a number of others. I gently say to those who expressed a degree of scepticism that most retailers already follow recommended practice and regularly ask customers for ID. We are stopping people from ever starting smoking, and 83% of smokers start before the age of 20. That means that someone who has never previously smoked is highly unlikely to want to take up smoking later in life. Our published modelling shows that smoking rates in England for 14 to 30-year-olds could be close to 0% as early as 2050 with the measures in this Bill.
Amanda Martin (Portsmouth North) (Lab)
As a former teacher, I hope that the Government are working across Departments. Will we work with the Department for Education to ensure that these conversations are had in our schools, right from the beginning, at primary level, and all the way through?
Andrew Gwynne
That is absolutely crucial. With this legislation, we have to make sure that we do not take our foot off the pedal when it comes to education and informing the next generation of children of the harms of smoking and vaping through our public health initiative.
Johanna Baxter (Paisley and Renfrewshire South) (Lab)
My constituents in Paisley and Renfrewshire South need a health service that moves from sickness to prevention, so can my hon. Friend confirm that this UK-wide Bill will impact my constituents? Has he had discussions with the Scottish Government about ensuring its implementation north of the border?
Andrew Gwynne
That is an important point, and it allows me to place on record my thanks to the Health Ministers in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland for how they have approached our desire to bring all parts of the United Kingdom together to make a smokefree United Kingdom, not just a smokefree England, through this legislation. I hope that I can reassure my hon. Friend that I have had incredibly fruitful conversations with the Health Minister in the SNP Scottish Government. She is as wedded and committed to this Bill and its measures as we are in this House today. I am reassured that across the whole United Kingdom, we will be walking in step to ensure that the next generation of children never takes up smoking.
Several hon. Members rose—
Andrew Gwynne
I will not give way now, as I have to end my speech. I know that you are keeping a careful eye on the clock, Madam Deputy Speaker.
If I had had more time, I would have talked about the huge public health benefits of the Bill that will do so much to prevent death, dementia and disability in old age. I could have gone into further detail about the economic benefits of the Bill, such as getting people back into work and saving untold sums of money for our NHS, but, from my perspective, the single most important thing that the Bill will do is tackle those stark inequalities across our country, because this fight is personal to me.
I have seen the harmful effects of tobacco on the people around me my entire life. As a schoolboy, I was educated about the harms of smoking, but it did nothing to stop a number of my peers from getting addicted to cigarettes. As an MP, I have seen at first hand how tobacco has devastated deprived communities across our country, not least in Greater Manchester. As the Minister for public health, I am determined to end the cycle of poverty and ill health, the blight of addition, disease and despair caused by smoking. No longer will it sap the strength of our cities—Stoke, Sunderland, Salford and so many others. This is the will of His Majesty’s Government, this is the promise of the Bill, and I urge colleagues across the House to vote with us to protect their constituents and do the right thing.
Question put, That the Bill be now read a Second time.
Tuesday 7th January 2025
(1 year, 7 months ago)
Public Bill CommitteesTobacco and Vapes Act 2026 Read Hansard Text Amendment Paper: Public Bill Committee Amendments as at 7 January 2025 - (7 Jan 2025)
This text is a record of ministerial contributions to a debate held as part of the Tobacco and Vapes Act 2026 passage through Parliament.
In 1993, the House of Lords Pepper vs. Hart decision provided that statements made by Government Ministers may be taken as illustrative of legislative intent as to the interpretation of law.
This extract highlights statements made by Government Ministers along with contextual remarks by other members. The full debate can be read here
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Care (Andrew Gwynne)
Q
Professor Sir Chris Whitty: May I take one impact that extends my previous points about outdoor smoking, and then maybe pass on to Sir Gregor and Sir Frank? For outdoor smoking, the previous Bill—the very good Bill put forward by the previous Government—did not have anything that addressed the needs of current smokers. It also did not address the needs of people exposed to smoke, despite the fact that, like over 88% of the population, they are not smokers and many of them are medically vulnerable.
The Bill allows the Government to take powers to prevent outdoor smoking, first with additional public consultation and then additional measures in Parliament. Ministers—you, Minister, have demonstrated this in the House of Commons—have indicated the areas where they intend to use these powers to reduce the risks of passive smoking. These are the areas of the greatest vulnerability: around hospitals, where some of the most medically vulnerable are highly concentrated; and around children’s playgrounds, where children are—I think everybody who does not have shares in cigarette companies would agree that exposing children to second-hand smoke is an unacceptable thing to do. That is one area where the Bill has gone further than the previous one. Maybe Sir Frank might want to add to that.
Sir Francis Atherton: In Wales, we have had smoke-free hospitals, schools and play areas since 2021, under our earlier public health legislation, and it is completely non-controversial. There are clearly issues around implementation and enforcement, particularly around hospitals, but if you go now to schools and hospitals there is no controversy whatever. So that will not make a huge amount of difference in Wales.
The one thing that will make a difference, I think, is aligning the vaping legislation with the smoking legislation. I say that because, going back to the earliest question, vape use among young people in Wales has shot up over recent years—8% of 11 to 16-year-olds regularly vape, up from 5% and a bit in 2021. It has absolutely shot up. Bringing together vaping and tobacco legislation in terms of vape-free and smoke-free places is a really important thing and one for which I have been arguing for quite some time.
Andrew Gwynne
Q
Professor Sir Gregor Ian Smith: Perhaps I can begin this answer; my colleagues may then want to come in. Alignment in this respect is really important, partly because of the clarity of message that exists to the public around about what is legally acceptable in relation to smoking and to vaping. Alignment across tobacco smoking and vape use is similarly important across the four nations.
Public health messaging is incredibly important. Having a consistent message across our four nations helps to ensure that the message is much more clearly understood and adhered to by the public. I welcome the attempts by Ministers to ensure that alignment exists within the Bill, so that as we go forward we give protection to those who do not smoke in the way that we are planning on doing with the Bill as it proceeds.
One of the most important aspects is to make sure that, although in Scotland, for instance, legislation prevents smoking within 15 metres of the likes of public places such as outside a hospital, we bring that much more closely in line with where the Welsh position is—so to the whole of the hospital grounds. Extending it to protect, as Sir Chris has said, more vulnerable places such as play parks is something I would certainly welcome in Scotland. We should do that in step across the four nations. I again emphasise that public messaging is incredibly important in making sure that we get the adherence we seek.
Andrew Gwynne
Q
Professor Sir Chris Whitty: I have already given my view that, although I have a lot of sympathy for choice and freedom arguments in many situations, tobacco addiction and second-hand smoking are not among those.
Sir Francis Atherton: If anything, choice is undermined by the addictive nature of nicotine. It is incredibly addictive. We know that now; we have known it for many years, actually. The tobacco industry has known it for many years, which is why the industry, through vaping and other means, is quite keen to have the next generation of people in our countries addicted to nicotine. Choice is completely undermined and taken away by the addictive nature of the product being marketed.
Professor Sir Gregor Ian Smith: Nicotine addiction is horrific. Nearly 9,000 people a year still die in Scotland as a result of tobacco-related health issues. Two thirds of people who begin smoking are potentially at risk of dying as a consequence of their addiction. We know that the industry targets both the younger age spectrum and vulnerable groups to sustain their industry.
If you have ever spoken to a patient with a serious tobacco-related illness such as chronic obstructive pulmonary disease, who is now suffering from the consequences of that—the limited ability to live their life—and the addictive nature of the disease, you soon begin to learn that they are filled with nothing but regret and guilt for the part that their addiction has played in the development of the disease. The stigma associated with tobacco-related disease is quite terrible for those who experience it. The basis of that is this lack of choice that they have developed as a consequence of the addictive nature of the nicotine products.
Professor Sir Chris Whitty: If I could just add a specific example from—
The Chair
Sorry, Sir Chris, but before we go further, I am trying to establish whether Sir Michael McBride has contact with us yet. If you can speak, Sir Michael, then we will know whether we have connection. It is as simple as that, really.
Professor Sir Michael McBride: Yes. The problem is not on my side, so I asked that you unlock me. I think I have now been unlocked, so perhaps I can speak.
The Chair
We will now hear evidence from Hazel Cheeseman, chief executive of Action on Smoking and Health; Sheila Duffy, chief executive of ASH Scotland; Suzanne Cass, chief executive of ASH Wales; and Naomi Thompson, health improvement manager at Cancer Focus Northern Ireland. We have until 10.55 am for this panel. I call the first Member to ask a question—the Minister.
Andrew Gwynne
Q
Hazel Cheeseman: We are all delighted to see this Bill return, and in such a strong form. There is complete consensus across the ASHs of the four nations that this is a Bill that is needed, wanted and workable.
As the chief medical officer said in the previous session, the improvements in this Bill are that there are more provisions that will assist in reducing smoking among people who are already smoking and in protecting those exposed to second-hand smoke. It also creates a comprehensive set of regulations around all tobacco and nicotine products and provides us with that future-proof—the flexibility to respond to evidence as it emerges and changes and to the market as it emerges and changes over time.
The Bill is enormously welcome for its comprehensiveness and robustness, and therefore for the opportunity to significantly reduce the uptake of smoking among the next generation and to aid people in quitting. The Minister will not mind me saying that I think there is more that the Government will need to do to accelerate that progress, in terms of investing in support for those who are already smoking and ensuring that we have the right strategy in place for that, but the Bill is a really good step in the right direction.
Andrew Gwynne
Q
Sheila Duffy: We have seen that tobacco control measures work. We have seen that they have reduced adult smoking rates over time. The points made by the chief medical officers were well made: we are looking to the generation growing up now in the UK; we are looking to protect them from addictions that so many now regret and that are claiming lives unnecessarily.
Suzanne Cass: I would add that tobacco control policies that are put in place are popular, and are really welcomed among members of the public; they are also welcomed among people who smoke. There is a huge surge of public support for tobacco control policies, and that grows—it does not diminish—as we introduce new policies; it grows, and that public support increases.
Naomi Thompson: In Northern Ireland, we are working towards a smoke-free Northern Ireland by 2035, and the reality is that tobacco control over the past 10 years has managed to bring things down to a stage where 2035 has potential. That is why tobacco control needs to continue. A Bill like this is just brilliant to keep that focus. If we can prevent people from starting, that will be absolutely key to making Northern Ireland, certainly, smoke-free by then.
Andrew Gwynne
Q
Suzanne Cass: As you know, ASH Wales and the Welsh Government have been at the forefront of implementing smoke-free spaces. We campaigned for smoke-free playgrounds and smoke-free school gates, both on a voluntary basis. Luckily, the foresight of the Welsh Government has made that provision legislation when it comes to hospital grounds, playgrounds, sports grounds, mental health units and a raft of other smoke- free spaces. We are obviously delighted that the Welsh Government has implemented that legislation.
The legislation has made a huge difference, in that it has allowed a platform for communication—communicating the message that it is not okay to smoke around children. There is a massive amount of public support for that messaging, and we have had the opportunity to communicate it. When it comes to smoke-free hospital grounds, a lot of us are looking at that legislation and the possibility of implementing it.
We have obviously had the legislation in place in Wales since 2021, and what we would say on the lessons learned is that there has to be a package when it comes to implementation. We cannot just legislate; we need to be looking at the support that is in hospitals for smokers to quit, we need to have trained staff and we need to have enforcement on the ground. There needs to be a whole package that comes with that legislation. That is the enormous lesson that we learned.
We implemented that legislation in 2021—in the midst of covid, which was tricky—but we have had problems around enforcement and problems around compliance. It is a very different kind of tobacco policy from that in the other smoke-free spaces. When it comes to the other smoke-free places—playgrounds, sports grounds and other areas like that—there is a lot of compliance, but when it comes to hospital grounds, you have to do a bit more of the legwork. But it is well worth it, because what comes with that is on-site hospital support for stopping smoking, and the message to everybody coming on to that site that smoking is not okay and that there is support available if you want to quit. So it comes with a whole raft of measures that support that smoke-free message.
The Chair
I call Caroline Johnson—apologies; I should have called you before the Minister.
Dr Johnson
Q
Dr Ian Walker: First, thank you very much for the opportunity to be here. I start by thanking Parliament for boldly introducing this Bill; it is genuinely world leading. I have spoken to organisations across the world that are envious of the position we find ourselves in. That is a very important question, and the answer is absolutely yes—I think this Bill will be very important in reducing the number of cancers caused by smoking tobacco. We know that there is no bigger thing we could do to actually influence that going forward for the next generation and generations thereafter.
As you have heard this morning, we know that we still have 6 million people smoking across the UK, and we know that we can expect hundreds of thousands of cases of cancer caused by smoking over the term of the next Parliament. As we move towards a truly smoke-free generation over the next 20, 30 or 40 years, we will absolutely expect to see the number of cancers caused by smoking—and, alongside that, the number of other illnesses associated with smoking—reduce.
Andrew Gwynne
Q
Dr Ian Walker: To start with smoking and cancer, the links between passive smoking and cancer, particularly lung cancer, are very clear. It is fair to say that there is less evidence around different scenarios that you might predict through this Bill, such as different outdoor environments and so on, but that is more because those studies have not necessarily been done. It is an important point to make that there is an absence of evidence, rather than evidence of absence.
You heard from the CMO of England this morning that if you can smell cigarette smoke, you are exposed to it. The direct risk, then, is linked to how long you are exposed to it, how concentrated the environment is, how close you are to it and so on. Nevertheless, passive smoking is harmful—not just for cancer, but for vulnerable people with many other conditions as well—so we are very much supportive of the introduction of smoke-free places and the ability to restrict people smoking in particular outdoor spaces.
Sarah Sleet: When it comes to people with lung conditions, second-hand smoke is incredibly important; it is a well-known, severe risk factor for people with lung conditions. About one in five of us in the UK will experience a lung condition—there are around 7 million people with asthma and about 1.6 million people living with chronic obstructive pulmonary disease. Those are two major conditions that are profoundly affected by second-hand smoking, and are clear risk factors in terms of deaths from asthma and people being hospitalised with exacerbations, so it is incredibly important that we deal with the issue of second-hand smoking. People said earlier that there is no choice about second-hand smoking, and yet it profoundly affects those with lung conditions. It is incredibly important that we ensure that we protect those vulnerable people as far as possible.
When it comes to the discussion about how far we should go in terms of smoke-free and vape-free places, we would consider going further than what has been suggested already and looking at other areas to make smoke-free. I know there has been discussion about hospitality and trying to balance the potential economic impact that has been talked about if we make the outside of hospitality places smoke-free. However, we think, given the balance between the public health impact and what we have seen with smoke-free indoor spaces and its impact on business, we could go further and should go further, there.
Andrew Gwynne
Q
Sarah Sleet: People with asthma and lung conditions are in the middle, where they are affected by both smoking and vaping. It is really important to get the balance right. Smoking is terrible—it is terrible for people with lung conditions—and we need to make sure we can drive down smoking rates as much as possible.
Vaping can play a part in helping with smoking cessation, but it should only be used for smoking cessation. People who have never smoked, and definitely children, should not be taking up vaping. We see vaping as a staging post to being completely nicotine-free. It is important to get the balance right between making vaping available for those who need smoking cessation and not encouraging people to try vaping or to keep vaping longer than they need to.
The legislation is good in allowing that flexibility for adjusting over time, as we get more evidence in. It is really important to put evaluation in place and make sure that robust evaluation does flow through over time, so we can adjust and respond to it. Traditionally—certainly in respiratory diseases—there has generally not been enough research and evaluation, so we need to correct that now.
Dr Ian Walker: First, I want to confirm that we are very much supportive of taking those powers. I think one of the real strengths of the Bill is the ability to adjust, moderate and titrate those powers and the actions that we take over time, not just as new evidence emerges, but as the tobacco industry and new products may emerge to try to circumvent the regulation that is in place. That is a really important part of the Bill.
I think the crux of the question was about what is important to consider through the consultation. From our perspective, it is important to get a balanced view on what the right actions are in this area. Of course we all agree that we want to limit, reduce and stop access for children and young people and to limit the appeal to never-smokers, while balancing that carefully against making cessation tools available to people who are trying to quit. It is important not to forget the 6 million people who are currently smokers and the long-term health implications ahead of them. We need a balance so that it is as easy as possible for those people to quit when they have chosen to do so. There will be many balancing features and balancing points of evidence that will be really important through the consultation in coming to the right outcome.
Andrew Gwynne
Q
Dr Ian Walker: Critical. Without a doubt, there is no single bigger action that you could take to reduce the cancer burden on the country. The cancer burden sits at a very personal, individual level for people getting their own diagnosis; it sits at a family level and at a friend level. It also sits at an economic level for the country and at an NHS level, in terms of the burden that smoking-related illnesses cause for the NHS.
From my perspective, this is a world-leading piece of legislation. It is absolutely an opportunity for generational change and a long-term legacy that will see our children and grandchildren never able to legally buy tobacco in the UK and never exposed to the harms that that would cause them.
Sadik Al-Hassan
Q
Sarah Sleet: As I said earlier, the research evidence around vaping harms is currently very poor. There has not been enough. It takes a long time to build up evidence of things that are generally very progressive rather than having an immediate impact, so we will have to wait. We need to put that in place, and we are going to have to wait to get that evidence back.
We have had anecdotal reports from our beneficiaries and those who contact the organisation about places—particularly in closed spaces, but sometimes outside—where there is a concentration of vaping. It is that classic thing where you go through a door and suddenly everybody around you is vaping immediately outside it. We get reports that that exacerbates people’s asthma and sometimes their COPD, but they are anecdotal. We really need the evidence base to support what is happening.
Dr Ian Walker: The only thing that I would add specifically from a cancer perspective is that although there is very little long-term evidence, because the products have not been around long enough and the cumulative effects have not been seen yet, what we do know, based on the current evidence, is that vapes are far less harmful than cigarettes. You heard the advice earlier that if you smoke it is better to vape or take other nicotine products, but if you do not smoke you should not vape, because we do not know yet what the long-term effects will be. In particular, we are very light on evidence on what the impact of vaping will be on bystanders.
Tuesday 7th January 2025
(1 year, 7 months ago)
Public Bill CommitteesTobacco and Vapes Act 2026 Read Hansard Text Amendment Paper: Public Bill Committee Amendments as at 7 January 2025 - (7 Jan 2025)
This text is a record of ministerial contributions to a debate held as part of the Tobacco and Vapes Act 2026 passage through Parliament.
In 1993, the House of Lords Pepper vs. Hart decision provided that statements made by Government Ministers may be taken as illustrative of legislative intent as to the interpretation of law.
This extract highlights statements made by Government Ministers along with contextual remarks by other members. The full debate can be read here
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Care (Andrew Gwynne)
I beg to move a manuscript amendment: Tuesday 7 January Until no later than 3.10 pm Professor Linda Bauld OBE, Bruce and John Usher Chair in Public Health, University of Edinburgh Tuesday 7 January Until no later than 3.30 pm National Trading Standards Tuesday 7 January Until no later than 3.50 pm British Retail Consortium Tuesday 7 January Until no later than 4.10 pm Department for Education’s Secondary Headteacher Reference Group Tuesday 7 January Until no later than 4.30 pm Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency Tuesday 7 January Until no later than 5.00 pm Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health; Royal College of General Practitioners Tuesday 7 January Until no later than 5.20 pm Department of Health and Social Care
That the Order of the Committee of 7 January 2023 be varied by leaving out from “Aneurin Bevan University Health Board” to end of table and insert—
This amendment is in order to accommodate witness availability. It would take Professor Linda Bauld at 2.40 pm and move the witnesses representing the royal colleges to start at 4.30 pm. This will add an extra 10 minutes to the last two panels, concluding oral evidence at 5.20 pm.
Manuscript amendment agreed to.
The Chair
I welcome the panel again, although I was not here for this morning’s sitting. We will now resume by hearing oral evidence from David Fothergill, chairman of the Local Government Association’s Community Wellbeing Board, Professor Tracy Daszkiewicz, executive director of public health and strategic partnerships and vice president of the faculty of public health at Aneurin Bevan University Health Board, and Alison Challenger, tobacco and vapes lead at the Association of Directors of Public Health.
For this panel, we have until 2.40 pm. The floor is now open to any members of the Committee who wish to ask questions, but we would traditionally ask the Opposition spokesperson to ask the first question, so, Dr Caroline Johnson, the floor is yours.
Dr Beccy Cooper (Worthing West) (Lab)
Q
Professor Tracy Daszkiewicz: From the public health community, it is widely accepted and supported. It gives us a great opportunity not only to increase the conversation, but to broaden it. How we embed the legislation into practice will be key: making sure that we are getting it to the point of delivery where we can effect change in terms of protecting our populations in the most effective way, making sure that we have a focus on smoking cessation, that we have a consistent and unified approach, and that we have the agility and adaptability to target different cohorts and different populations effectively. From the public health perspective, though, the Bill is hugely supported.
Alison Challenger: Similarly, from the Association of Directors of Public Health, the Bill is very much welcomed. It will represent a sea change in reducing harm caused by tobacco, which is still our biggest killer. Significant numbers of people continue to smoke and are still addicted to smoking. The product itself is not only extremely dangerous but extremely addictive at the same time. We welcome these measures to address that.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Care (Andrew Gwynne)
Q
David Fothergill: The engagement has been really positive and constructive. We have faith in the Bill and that it has the right intention, the right measures and the right provisions. Our concern is around the funding, the timing and the pipeline of trading standards. The key thing for us is that it is an empowering Bill; it empowers local authorities. If you tried to legislate for every single local authority to implement it in the same way, we would run into some quite difficult conversations and difficult times; it would make enforcement more difficult. Allowing local councils to do what is right for them is the route to go.
People who sit on licensing committees have local understanding. I can give you an example. Should we ban the sale of tobacco within 100 metres of a school? That would be quite easy to do in an urban area, but I look after villages. If you do that, they have lost their only shop. People would not be able to go to that shop to buy legally. So you have got to have local knowledge. It is the right Bill, but we need to make sure that it is an empowering Bill for local authorities to implement in their local communities.
Andrew Gwynne
Q
David Fothergill: It is very much about keeping our feet on the ground. Let us be honest: trading standards are under a lot of pressure and have been cut over the last 10 years. Trading standards have responsibility for enforcing over 300 pieces of legislation, so there is a lot of pressure on trading standards; but I think that by working with retailers and building the relationship locally and ensuring that we use enforcement as the final tool, we can work very well in our local areas.
Andrew Gwynne
Q
Professor Tracy Daszkiewicz: It is a really useful question. It is about looking at it through multiple lenses. So there is the enforcement element of it, but there are also the elements that go behind that. If you take hospitals as an example in terms of having NHS smoke-free sites, enforcement is part of that, but it is also about having cessation services in place. If you have people going in for elective surgery, for example, you have got a period of time where you can put in a smoking cessation intervention. It is a “waiting well” method, if you like, so that people go in for surgery in a way that makes for the best possible outcomes, and have an opportunity to either get towards a quit or at least not go in smoking. That enables patients not to be going outside and using cigarettes and so on, which enables that smoke-free site and also creates better outcomes for our patients. So, we do need to think about that.
There has to be a common-sense approach. We know that vaping is a tool towards quitting smoking; we recognise that is part of the process. Where we can get people off tobacco smoking, that is crucial, particularly around health and wellbeing. The open spaces element and the public spaces element is a part that we have really focused on in Wales. The learning from that is still going on; it is not the end of the road. We are learning all the time, adapting to new evidence and making the changes that we need to make to enforce that more consistently, but in a fair way for our population.
Andrew Gwynne
Q
David Fothergill: We would like to see a licensing scheme that is very aligned with the alcohol licensing scheme, although there clearly cannot be a single scheme. The four provisions within the alcohol licensing scheme brought in by the Licensing Act 2003 were preventing crime and disorder, ensuring public safety, preventing public nuisance and protecting children from harm. If we can build those provisions into this legislation for the licensing of the sale of tobacco and vapes, that will give us enough to work on. I would also say that the flexibility we need at a local level remains critical.
Tristan Osborne (Chatham and Aylesford) (Lab)
Q
David Fothergill: I will take the fines element first and then talk about the cost of licensing for those retailers. A fine of £200 is quite a low figure. I think it was £100 previously, so it has been increased. If you pay within 10 days, it goes from £200 to £100. If you sell 40 vapes in one day, you have paid your fine. Some retailers—very few, because the vast majority are scrupulous—will take the view that they could sell more vapes to under-age people and those they should not be selling to, and pay that £100 fine within 10 days. So yes, we view it as too low. We would like to see a review brought in within a year to see whether it should be increased.
If we can align the cost of licensing fees with alcohol licensing, that would enable us to find a way to reduce the burden, because the vast majority of people who are selling alcohol are also selling tobacco. We need to work with our businesses to reduce the cost of applying for those licences, which is why we need the consultation period over the next few months, before we bring in legislation, to ensure that we have worked with our retailers, the public and our communities in order to deliver a scheme that actually works.
Dr Johnson
Q
Professor Linda Bauld: I think we also heard this from previous witnesses, but as the legislation comes into place, it is really not about 34-year-olds versus 35-year-olds; it is about acting on the age of sale gradually, so that we are de-normalising tobacco use and stopping the start at an earlier stage.
By the time we get to the difference between the 34-year-old and the 35-year-old, you will have far lower smoking rates than we do at the moment. The modelling for the legislation that was carried out by the University of Sheffield for the Department of Health and Social Care suggests, as I think Hazel Cheeseman said earlier, that by 2040 we will have reduced the smoking rate among those aged 14 to 30 to 0.4%—down from 0.6% by 2030—so I think you are going to see very low rates. To go back to Challenge 25, age verification is something that we can build in, and, irrespective of how old you are, actually seeing proof of age will support this.
Andrew Gwynne
Q
Professor Linda Bauld: Thank you for that question, Minister. I have been working in tobacco control for almost 30 years, and the impact has been phenomenal. If you look back to the late 1940s and 1950s, 80% of men smoked in the UK. We have driven that down gradually over the years. We started to measure it in about 1974, and the level of smoking in the UK is now about 12% or 13%—the second lowest in Europe. The reason that we have achieved that is in line with what is being proposed in this legislation. It is about using comprehensive measures and implementing them over the years to regulate what I often call the four p’s: the product, the place, the price and the promotion. You are taking action on potentially all of those—including price, with the levy that is coming in, or the tax on vapes.
We have made a lot of progress, but we are not there yet. I think what you will hear from my clinical colleagues later is that in line with keeping that firm focus on prevention, as you are doing in this Bill, we also need to keep the focus on cessation and particularly on marginalised groups, deprivation, mental health and so on. The key is comprehensive tobacco control. Keep doing it, and that is what the Bill is adding to.
Andrew Gwynne
Q
Professor Linda Bauld: If I can start with the second part of your question, in terms of not deterring adult smokers, we need to continue making the products available for smoking cessation. We are not banning vapes—that has happened in a number of other countries, as the CMO for England was saying—but we are recognising the things that make them appealing, attractive and affordable to young people, and taking action on those. It is fine for the adult smoker not to be able to see a wide array of advertised products on the shop front, on the billboard or at the point of sale, but to know they are there behind the counter and ask for them. I also do not think that the adult smoker who is trying to quit cares about gummy bears or Coca-Cola flavours—maybe they want some flavours, but not all of them. It is about striking a balance.
Finally, although we are not here to talk about the funding of smoking cessation services today—certainly in England, you have made previous announcements about that—it is important that in clinical settings and through stop smoking services we can give good information about vaping and other cessation aids, and support people to quit that way.
Liz Jarvis (Eastleigh) (LD)
Q
Professor Linda Bauld: It is very ambitious on tobacco. We will be the first in the world—after unfortunate events in New Zealand, from my personal perspective—to introduce the smoke-free generation policy, and the world is looking at us. That is good. In terms of protecting people from vaping, the Bill has a proportionate set of measures, but if I come back to the answer that I gave to the shadow Minister, we really need to keep our eye on the regulations and—going back to the Minister’s questions—make sure that we are striking a balance. Given the evidence that we have for much stronger regulations on vaping, I think this strikes the right balance, but we need to make sure that we do that in a proportionate way. Finally, to go back to the comments from the previous set of witnesses, we also need to make sure that local areas have the flexibility around some of the measures to adapt them for their local circumstances.
Sadik Al-Hassan
Q
Professor Linda Bauld: That is an interesting question. My colleagues at UCL did a study that looked at what happened when they raised the age of sale from 16 to 18. I have to be honest with you: at the time, the tobacco control research community would not have pointed to that as the most ambitious measure that you could do; we did not think that changing the age by just two years would make an impact. But, from the data, it actually created 1.3 million more people who could not be sold cigarettes. We also know that, at the same time, due to the action on illicit tobacco, which is really important, the amount of illicit tobacco consumed fell by about 25%. So it is about those two things in partnership: tackling illicit, which of course is really important, and changing the age of sale.
The promise of the smoke-free generation is more ambitious, however. Rather than just raising the age of sale by a few years, we are gradually changing it over time. That protects future generations, because we do not have the big jump to being suddenly ineligible to be sold cigarettes. To go back to the evidence in the annexe to the legislation, which shows the modelling done by my colleagues for the Department of Health and Social Care, it looks pretty robust. I think that this will have a big impact over time. I hope that is helpful.
The Lord Commissioner of His Majesty’s Treasury (Taiwo Owatemi)
Q
Professor Linda Bauld: That is interesting. I think a similar question was asked earlier. I do not think that history bears that out. Often, a concern is that if we take action on one product, we displace youth use to other products. With action that we have taken on smoking over the years, we have not seen a dramatic increase in, for example, youth alcohol use or use of other legal products. There are still major issues with young people consuming alcohol but, actually, the number of young people drinking at harmful levels has reduced in recent years, at the same time as tobacco measures have been introduced over time.
I do not think that we will see a big displacement to other substances by introducing this set of measures, but we need to keep our eye on getting that balance right. In terms of the other products that we are concerned young people might use—obviously, there are illegal drugs, which we have separate legislation on, and we need to keep an eye on alcohol control for young people—all those things need to happen together. But I have not seen any evidence to suggest that taking this kind of action will cause some other public health issue that we need to be overly concerned about.
Dr Johnson
Thank you, that is a really helpful answer. We know that vapes are very difficult to dispose of and to recycle.
Andrew Gwynne
Q
Lord Michael Bichard: I think we do feel we will have the right powers, based on the fact that we are already doing some of this quite successfully. We seized something like 2 million vapes last year; we carried out 400,000 test purchases—which is how we check whether or not the legislation is being enforced—and we seized, I think, 19 million illegal cigarettes. So in a way, this is not new stuff for us; it is just bigger. We have the powers and we use them quite effectively. We know that HMRC thinks we are pretty effective in relation to tobacco. We like to think we are a good delivery agency.
Wendy Martin: There has been a lot of work in the development of the Bill and the associated Department for Environment Food and Rural Affairs legislation around the ban on single-use vaping products with officials, so we have worked together with them to try to get this to a good place in terms of enforcement powers.
Andrew Gwynne
Q
Lord Michael Bichard: No. Our experience of the illicit tobacco market is that it has reduced rather than increased, despite the additional regulation, the price rise and all the rest of it, so we do not think that is a serious issue. We think that there are a number of myths around illicit tobacco and illicit vapes that do not stand up to close scrutiny. So no, we do not think that is a serious problem.
Andrew Gwynne
Q
Lord Michael Bichard: Yes, I think we feel that. You might also consider an increase for second offenders before you move to prosecution. I do not think anyone wants to move to prosecution, because it is such a time-intensive process. I know we have limited time, but one thing we have not talked about is retailers. We also ought to be concerned about the online market—or rather, you should be concerned, as we are. It is a difficulty for us and for local authorities, because no single local authority thinks it should be responsible for enforcing legislation in an online marketplace.
We have a solution to that, which is that we have a lead authority that we think could deal with this and avoid the problem with individual local authorities. I think that will become an increasingly important element of the vape marketplace.
Sarah Bool (South Northamptonshire) (Con)
Q
Lord Michael Bichard: It seems to me that it is now such a part of life that it is not as big a problem as it was; I think it is a problem that will diminish.
Wendy Martin: Certainly the retail violence is of concern and has been well publicised. It is clearly a policing issue rather than a trading standards issue. I guess it needs activity to make sure that everyone understands what is being done and why it is being done, and to make sure that there is a policing response, if possible, where there are issues. I know that local authorities work through community safety partnerships and things like that in local areas if there are particular incidents. Again, it is not specifically a trading standards response, but local authorities and local police forces will work together to do their best to address these things, because nobody wants anyone to be threatened with violence.
Andrew Gwynne
Q
Inga Becker-Hansen: Retailers are quite comfortable with the licensing scheme for tobacco at this point. That is something we are used to as a whole. One aspect of it is the fact that your larger retailers, for example, who have multiple premises do not have to worry about individual licenses for those individual premises. That is something we are quite concerned about with the licensing scheme, and what that could mean. If individual licenses had to be applied for, that could lead to divergence across a retail brand, and that affects your overall public retail image for customers.
We would also like to highlight that if the licensing scheme were to follow something such as the tobacco licensing scheme—the idea that licensing authorities could approve or deny certain applications—that could affect long-standing, established, compliant retailers, and that could lead to a loss of revenue for them. We appreciate the need for the legislation. We appreciate the need for a level playing field, and that is what we would encourage through the Bill.
Andrew Gwynne
Q
Inga Becker-Hansen: Currently, retailers are used to the idea of over the age of 18, simply because of tobacco and alcohol sales. The identification of January 2009 is more difficult, in terms of the rolling age and how that will look in the future. Currently, it is quite identifiable. I would say that January 2009 is more difficult for retailers to handle in the future per se.
Andrew Gwynne
Q
Inga Becker-Hansen: Yes, currently that is true. However, in the future, if somebody walks into a store and they are 45 or 43, I would not be able to tell that at face value.
Andrew Gwynne
Q
Inga Becker-Hansen: From their ID, you would. What I am trying to say is that it raises the thing of eventually becoming “no ID, no sale”, which is a concept that retailers would have to follow. But it would also mean that consumer-wise, you would require a consumer-facing public awareness campaign to identify and illustrate to the general public that it is “no ID, no sale”, if that is the angle that the Government are focusing on.
Andrew Gwynne
Q
Inga Becker-Hansen: Ideally, with a cohesive guideline illustrating to retailers how to implement the legislation. We would also encourage alignment across the regulations in terms of new regulations coming through, such as secondary legislation on the licensing scheme, and consultations on any secondary legislation so that both larger and smaller retailers may contribute their ideas. Ideally, there would be constant communication with industry to understand how these changes are made, as well as a public awareness campaign so that the public is aware of the changes, which would hopefully reduce any potential violence against or abuse of retail workers.
Andrew Gwynne
Q
Inga Becker-Hansen: We would like to see a licensing scheme as a level playing field where small, independent and larger retailers are viewed on the same level. Again, we would encourage the multi-stores to require only one licence rather than looking at individual premises licences, because that will make things more difficult.
In terms of the tobacco scheme, ideally things would be grouped together so that there is less administrative burden and therefore less cost for retailers, so that, if the aim for the Government is to transfer from the idea of selling tobacco to people to selling vapes because of the health benefits, that transition is made easier for retailers. Adding on an additional licensing scheme with additional costs and a separate administrative system makes it more difficult for retailers to handle those things at the same time, particularly smaller retailers and independents.
Sadik Al-Hassan
Q
Inga Becker-Hansen: It is a bit difficult for me to give you specific details, but in initial response my thinking would be that it would be a discussion between retailers and their primary authority and how that is handled, bearing in mind smaller retailers versus larger retailers. I am happy to follow up in writing and give evidence that way, but I cannot give specific details currently.
Dr Johnson
Q
Matthew Shanks: Yes—very much so.
Andrew Gwynne
Q
Matthew Shanks: I think it will, but for some it will not unless it has the education behind it as well. I also think it is too easy for children to purchase vapes. It is all very nice to think of shopkeepers not allowing children to buy vapes or tobacco if they are under age. I am not denigrating them, but we have instances, for example, of a year 9 child who had a loyalty card for a vape shop. She is 13 years of age—she did not look 18—yet she is being sold that at the local shop. You go in and talk to the local shop and they say that no, of course they have not sold it to her, and then there is conflict there. We need to look at the legality of it and sterner punishment, for want of a better word, for people who are found to be selling.
The drop box online purchasing industry also needs to be looked at. I do not know how, but again, we know that people purchase vapes from those places. The education side is for parents, because parents and older brothers and sisters think it is safe and will therefore give them a vape. The Bill will help, but there are other things that could help as well.
Andrew Gwynne
Q
Matthew Shanks: Packaging and flavouring is really important. As I said before, it is set out as if it were sweets and bubblegum. Why would you need these different flavours? Why are they making something more attractive that is meant to help you stop doing something, so that if you do not like one flavour, you can try lots of them, and collect the different coloured vapes, or build them up into towers? Addressing all those things would help. Linking vaping with smoking, in terms of not being able to purchase it as you go up the age range, would also help.
Vape-free zones are really important. People are vaping indoors. I have seen it today in London on the tube, in pubs and other places—I have not been in a pub today, by the way; that was over the Christmas period, but people are vaping in pubs in the way they used to with cigarette smoke. Again, it is not seen as something dangerous.
If you put all that out there and then put children into the mix and they are looking up and seeing the colourful packaging, the flavouring and so on, why would they not do this?
Andrew Gwynne
Q
Matthew Shanks: Yes. My question would be: why would we not?
The Chair
Looking at the number of Members who wish to ask questions and the amount of time that we have left, I ask Members to be short in their questions and the panellist to be short in his answers.
Dr Johnson
Q
Dr Laura Squire: I do not have any evidence of that, but it does worry me. We are an organisation that is about healthcare products, medicines, medical devices and blood products—that is our business—and it concerns me that people might think that vapes are safe. When I talk about risk-benefit, what I mean is that vapes are safer than tobacco; I do not think that anyone disagrees with that. However, vapes are not safer than nothing—and we do not actually know how unsafe vapes are, because there is a need for much longer-term study and understanding of the damage that they could cause.
My feeling is that, yes, there is potentially a misleading position with an organisation like ours, which is basically about healthcare products, running this scheme.
Andrew Gwynne
Q
Dr Laura Squire: I think we heard earlier about the different elements you need to make something work—licensing, regulations and registration—and I agree with that. I think it was also mentioned that registration is important to allow compliant businesses to check that the product that they have is compliant.
The significant problem with the notification scheme at the moment is that there is not an easy way to take something off the register once it is already on it. That is a problem, because if people are checking the current register, there might be something on it that we would quite like to take off but cannot.
There are powers to take things off the shelves, so if there was a recall issue, that could be dealt with. However, the main problem, or the primary thing in the Bill that I think needs to change, is having powers to take things off the register. Obviously, we must consult on the regulations themselves, but we welcome that change.
Andrew Gwynne
Q
Dr Laura Squire: I think somebody talked earlier about the package; the Bill is more than the notification scheme, and I think the whole thing works together to make a much safer environment. I was particularly pleased to see that there is a requirement to carry out studies and a requirement to carry out testing. We are sometimes asked about testing. Testing at the point of registration is one thing, but you need to know that the product remains compliant.
Obviously, there must be consultation about exactly what will go into the regulations, but I would expect that there would be an awful lot more linked to the other requirements of the Bill, and that will make it tighter. I think that would be an improvement, because at the moment the Bill is very light-touch.
Taiwo Owatemi
Q
Dr Laura Squire: For a medicines licence?
Taiwo Owatemi
Q
Dr Laura Squire: That is a difficult one. We had one product that was given a medicines licence in 2015, but it has never been marketed. We continue to try to encourage people to come forward to get medicines licences. However, the reality is that there is such a huge discrepancy between what you can do with a consumer product if you are a manufacturer, in order to get it out there and get it on the market, and what you would have to do to get a licence for it as a medicine—and that is quite right.
What this scheme does is to make it more demanding to be a manufacturer of a consumer product and put more requirement on it. To a certain extent, that reduces the differential between the two, which is welcome. We really continue to encourage people to come forward and talk to us about licensing products. One of the things that will be interesting is the impact this will have on the narrative out there—which was talked about by the previous witness—that vapes are safe. This will perhaps change that narrative and make people realise. All I can say is that we stand ready for more applications for medical licences. We put out some detailed guidance in 2022 to try to encourage manufacturers to do this, and we actually have one coming through the pipeline at the moment. So it will be interesting to see but hard to predict.
Taiwo Owatemi
Q
Dr Laura Squire: With the current notification scheme, we have the resource that we need to do that. As the registration scheme becomes more detailed and demanding, and as there is more in it, I would expect that to require more resource. That is something that we need to continue talking to the Department of Health about as it develops the policy, and we will do that.
Also, as part of that, the impact on us will depend on not only what is in the regulation but who does it. I know that there are conversations about where it is best done, and there are registrations for other consumer products that already exist, so there are conversations happening with the Office of Product Safety and Standards. It is important to learn from those sorts of schemes that are already happening. Where that goes is a policy decision for the Department of Health and Social Care, and we will continue to work with it. I think it would also involve being clear about what resources we might need if we carry on and need more. At the moment, we have what we need to do what we need to do under the current law.
Sadik Al-Hassan
Q
Dr Laura Squire: They would do if it was a licensed product.
Dr Johnson
Q
Professor Sanjay Agrawal: No.
Andrew Gwynne
Q
Professor Steve Turner: Smoking is bad whether you are an active smoker or a passive smoker. Sadly, there are lots of children who still actively smoke, but there are many hundreds of thousands of children who are exposed to second-hand smoke in the home. There is undeniable evidence that that exposure is harmful. I do respiratory paediatrics. Asthma admissions are very common and are clearly associated with exposures.
We can look at natural experiments. For example, in Scotland we had the “Take it right outside” campaign, which was a smoke-free homes initiative. After that, there was a reduction in the number of children coming into hospital. When we brought in the ban on smoking in cars in Scotland, there was another reduction. On that whole-population basis, there is a lot of evidence of benefit to the population, particularly children, from smoking interventions. There are also benefits to the birth weight of children.
There is no doubt that there is a huge amount of harm from second-hand smoke, and anything that reduces the population’s exposure to second-hand smoke will benefit the whole population. As we heard earlier from Matthew, the headteacher, it is part of a package, and it is part of education as well. Smoking continues to be something that children should not do. Children should never vape. Children should never smoke. They continue to do so, and anything that we as a responsible society can do to stop that is to everybody’s benefit.
Andrew Gwynne
Q
Professor Steve Turner: Children are very susceptible and can be easily influenced, and they are learning all the time. If they see that it is okay to watch your child’s football match and smoke, or to smoke outside a pub, they will very quickly adapt and think that that is a social norm. There is a powerful social norm exercise there about what we as a society expect is normal, and approving smoking outside hospitals seems to be such a bad, conflicting message. To me, that argument in itself is very powerful.
There were a number of people back in the early noughties who felt that the smoke-free legislation might not have much benefit on pregnancy—why on earth would that reduce low birth weight and premature delivery? Well, it did. That was probably the snowballing effect of stopping smoking in pubs, for example—I think the whole of society changed its attitude and behaviour around smoking. So, going back to the original question, I think that putting restrictions in public spaces will change that social norm to everybody’s benefit.
Andrew Gwynne
Q
Professor Steve Turner: That is a really good question. I think that the balance in this Bill—between supporting the 6 million smokers to quit and not engaging children in nicotine addiction—is the right balance. Going back to what I was saying earlier, getting the message across to young people is a multifaceted intervention that requires education as well as legislation. It is a really difficult balance, but I do believe that the Bill, as it is, has that balance just right.
Dr Chambers
Q
Professor Steve Turner: The impact on the whole of society of second-hand smoking in children is complex, but there are various pieces of the jigsaw. First of all, children come to the clinic, are admitted to hospital, come to the emergency department, or go and see the GP, so there is that healthcare side. If any of you have children, however, when your child is off school, that has implications for you as a family; there are some difficult discussions over breakfast about who is going to work and who is not. Therefore, there are a number of different impacts on us as a society, economically and to the NHS from second-hand smoking.
I am not clever enough to put a number on it, but it is a lot bigger than I think people know. I do know that £46 billion is the number cited as the direct health cost to the NHS of smoking—it is almost too big to consider—but I suspect that the wider societal cost will probably be a magnitude greater than that.
Taiwo Owatemi
Q
Andrew Gwynne: That is an interesting question. First, there has been really close engagement between the UK Government and the devolved nations. We have the full support of Mike Nesbitt, the Northern Ireland Health Minister, who has helped shape the Bill, as have his officials. The UK Government and the Northern Ireland Executive are in close dialogue with colleagues in the Republic of Ireland to ensure that we discuss at length and in detail the cross-border issues. We will continue to engage with the Republic of Ireland to ensure that the Bill works. Only time will tell whether the Republic of Ireland will decide to follow suit, but the Bill will be a game changer and other countries will want to follow the United Kingdom’s lead.
The Chair
In the short time we have left I cannot allow any more questions.
Ordered, That further consideration be now adjourned. —(Taiwo Owatemi.)
Thursday 9th January 2025
(1 year, 7 months ago)
Public Bill CommitteesTobacco and Vapes Act 2026 Read Hansard Text Amendment Paper: Public Bill Committee Amendments as at 9 January 2025 - (9 Jan 2025)
This text is a record of ministerial contributions to a debate held as part of the Tobacco and Vapes Act 2026 passage through Parliament.
In 1993, the House of Lords Pepper vs. Hart decision provided that statements made by Government Ministers may be taken as illustrative of legislative intent as to the interpretation of law.
This extract highlights statements made by Government Ministers along with contextual remarks by other members. The full debate can be read here
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
The Chair
There will be a further opportunity to raise a point of order. It will be up to whoever is in the Chair at the time to decide whether to take the kind of action that, on the Clerk’s sound advice, I have just taken. I appreciate that this is a complex Bill and we may well find that one or two amendments are more comfortably located under other clauses. If that is so, sensibly and flexibly, we will endeavour to accommodate that.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Care (Andrew Gwynne)
On a point of order, Sir Roger. The loop system in this room does not appear to be working, at least not for my hearing aid. I do not know whether somebody can get it switched on or, if not, whether Members could please amplify when they speak.
The Chair
That request, I understand, has been remitted. We will do the best we can. Will hon. Members be kind enough to ensure that they speak clearly for the sake of the Minister and anybody else in a similar position? Exceptionally, I am more than prepared to make sure that the person speaking is addressing the Minister rather than the Chair, as would normally be the case, because sometimes in these circumstances it helps to see somebody’s lips. Again, I can only apologise that the system ain’t perfect.
I am well aware that there are hon. Members present who have not taken part in the Bill Committee process before. First, on code of dress, it is fine if anybody wishes to take their jacket off. You have the permission of the Chair to do so. You are supposed to seek the consent of the Chair before doing so; you have that consent.
Hon. Members who wish to intervene may do so in the same way as on the Floor of the House. It is up to the Member who has the Floor whether to give way, but it is customary in Committee. Unlike on the Floor of the House, it is not uncommon for a Member to seek to intervene more than once on the same subject for further clarification, if necessary. That is a given. I trust that Members are aware that—again, unlike on the Floor of the House—they are permitted to speak more than once during the debate on each grouping.
That brings me on to the groupings, about which we have had quite a lot of discussion already. This is an arcane process. Groupings on amendments and new clauses are tabled out of sequence, but in recognition of the subject matter under discussion. You will find that there are groupings with a lead amendment, which is the only one that will initially be moved. It is not uncommon for hon. Members to say, “Hang on a minute, I want to move that other amendment.” The answer to that is, “Later.” You move the amendment when we reach the appropriate point in the Bill; amendments are not necessarily moved immediately. If anybody wishes to press an amendment that is listed, but that is not immediately called as the lead amendment, will they please let the Chair know? It is not our job to try to prevent you from causing a Division if you choose to do so, but we do need to know. Otherwise, it may not get called.
Government amendments and some new clauses will be called in sequence as we work through the Bill. Although they may be debated this morning, they might not be called to be voted on—divided on—for two or three weeks. If you are in any doubt, ask. That goes for anything else as well. This is a difficult process to master. Whoever is in the Chair will be more than willing, if we do not know the answer, to take advice—the Clerk always does know—and make sure that you get the answers you want. In other words, if in doubt, ask. Do not sit there floundering.
That was intended to be helpful. I do not know whether it was or not. We will now commence line-by-line scrutiny of the Bill.
Clause 1
Sale of tobacco etc
Dr Johnson
The amendments do not stand in my name, and they are not amendments with which I agree, but they relate to a very important part of the Second Reading debate that goes to the heart of the principles behind the Bill. I have moved the lead amendment so that the debate can be heard in full and so that hon. Members can establish for themselves whether they wish to support the amendments.
I will refer to these amendments as the Maguire amendments, if that helps, as they were all tabled by the hon. Member for Epsom and Ewell, who is not on the Committee. It is, of course, the Whips who choose who goes on the Committee—[Interruption.] Sorry, can you hear me?
Dr Johnson
My hon. Friend makes an important point. Some people are averse to carrying ID—it is not something that bothers me personally, but I am aware that for some people it is a sticking point. In a previous debate before the election, the former Member for Norwich North, Chloe Smith, made the point that not all adults will be affected by this legislation, but only a relatively narrow band of them.
The last time I was carded for ID, I was 38. I was not buying the typical basket of a 17-year-old; I was buying flowers—orchids—and a bottle of champagne for someone’s housewarming, as well as some strawberries, because she had phoned to ask me to get some when I was on the way, as she was running out at the housewarming party. I was IDed, so I was not able to buy the champagne for her, because the supermarket would not let me. That was disappointing for both of us, but I accepted the fact that if ID could not be shown and they genuinely believed that I looked under 25, that was the law and it had to be accepted. That is not universally the case, and I am aware—as we heard in evidence—that retailers can sometimes receive significant verbal and occasionally violent abuse when they ask for ID in that way.
Andrew Gwynne
The shadow Minister is having a good morning, having not had a particularly great evening last night. With no disrespect to the hon. Member for Windsor, who made this point in his intervention, by the time that the age of sale is legally his age, we hope that smoking prevalence in that age group will be next to zero, and therefore it will not be an issue.
Dr Johnson
I thank the Minister for his intervention, although I am not sure what he is implying about the age of my hon. Friend the Member for Windsor—
Thursday 9th January 2025
(1 year, 7 months ago)
Public Bill CommitteesTobacco and Vapes Act 2026 Read Hansard Text Amendment Paper: Public Bill Committee Amendments as at 9 January 2025 - (9 Jan 2025)
The Committee divided: - Ayes: 2 / Noes: 14 - Question accordingly negatived.
The Committee divided: - Ayes: 2 / Noes: 14 - Question accordingly negatived.
This text is a record of ministerial contributions to a debate held as part of the Tobacco and Vapes Act 2026 passage through Parliament.
In 1993, the House of Lords Pepper vs. Hart decision provided that statements made by Government Ministers may be taken as illustrative of legislative intent as to the interpretation of law.
This extract highlights statements made by Government Ministers along with contextual remarks by other members. The full debate can be read here
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
Sarah Bool
Once one has turned 66, that person does not have to confirm their age each and every couple of days or necessarily carry ID to claim their state pension—it is noted on the record, and that is that. Here, potentially, however, if we have an outright ban from 1 January 2009, whenever someone tries to buy a cigarette, after 2034 retailers will have to ask on every single occasion how old they are, for fear of a fine.
I agree that we already have the age 25 verification, but it is safe to assume that people reach an age when they do not have to prove it. I find it incredibly flattering when I do get IDed, but we all reach a point when we do not need it. In the Bill, however, we do. It might seem to be a quick check—one simply looks at the date of 1 January 2009—but we can foresee that being troublesome for retailers. Also, we very much have to bear in mind the issue of the abuse of staff and, as British retailers have mentioned, the increased financial and administrative burden, in particular for smaller shops, which is often where vapes and tobacco are sold. That will have a big impact on their businesses.
Indirectly, a potential effect is the introduction of legal inequalities and giving sanction to age discrimination by creating a create a class of under-aged adults. Furthermore, a point I would like to stress is that, as a lawyer, one of my main concerns is enforceability. I do not disagree with the principle of the next generation being smoke-free—I think that is admirable and important—but I want to ensure that we pass a piece of legislation that will work in practice. We have to think about how this will work in due course, even if in 10 years’ time. That is something I wanted to put on the record.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Care (Andrew Gwynne)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Dowd. I am also grateful to the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham, for bringing this discussion before the Committee today.
These Liberal Democrat-tabled amendments would make it an offence to sell tobacco products, herbal smoking products or cigarette papers to a person under the age of 25, rather than to anyone born on or after 1 January 2009. The amendments also seek to change the age-of-sale notices to align with the change in the age of sale, which is why there are so many consequential amendments.
This group of amendments also includes amendments 29 and 30, which cover proxy sale of tobacco products in Scotland. To save time, I assure the Committee that, instead of now, I will discuss those particular issues during the clause 2 debate, which I hope will begin shortly, as that relates directly to the points in that group on proxy sales, rather than to age of sale.
As we heard from our expert witnesses during oral evidence, smoking is the No. 1 preventable cause of death, of disability and of ill health: it claims about 80,000 deaths a year across the United Kingdom; it causes one in four of all cancer deaths and it kills, as the shadow Minister rightly pointed out, two thirds of its long-term users. I say to the hon. Member for Windsor that there is no liberty whatever in addiction. We seek to ensure that the next generation is never addicted to tobacco products in the way that the current generation and previous generations have been. That is the real freedom here: the freedom not to be addicted to a product that, frankly, would not be allowed were it invented today.
Jack Rankin
I take the Minister’s point, but there is the potential throughout the Bill for double standards. He talks about addiction—I disagree with him, but it is a perfectly reasonable point to make—but the same could be true of gambling or alcohol. We allow, for example, gamblers to advertise on football shirts. So if the Minister takes the logic of his argument all the way through to its necessary end conclusion, then this Government must be legislating for all those addictive social things that are incredibly damaging as well.
Andrew Gwynne
I understand the hon. Member’s argument, but it does not hold water. There is no safe level of smoking. That is the fundamental issue. People can drink or gamble responsibly. We have laws in place to protect against the harms of those things; we can argue—although this Bill is not the place for it—about whether those measures go far enough or go too far at present, but there are protections in place for alcohol and gambling harms. Tobacco is a product that kills two thirds of its users, and as a state, we have a duty to save lives.
Jack Rankin
I take the Minister’s point somewhat, but I think that there is a conflation of argument here about cigarettes and tobacco. If I may say so, the Minister alternated somewhat between the two. That may be the case with cigarettes; I have never been a smoker of cigarettes, but on new year’s eve I had a big cigar with my dad and brother, and the last one I had with them before that was at my brother’s 30th. I think that was a safe and pleasurable thing to do, and something that the state should not be infringing on. It is not just cigarettes that the Government are going after—it is all tobacco products.
Andrew Gwynne
The fact is that the primary consumption of tobacco in this country is through cigarettes. Tobacco is not a safe product. There is no safe level of tobacco use. The hon. Member might enjoy a cigar every now and then; that is a risk that he is prepared to take and that the law allows him to him to take, but I would argue that is still a risky behaviour. Tobacco, in whatever form it is consumed, causes health defects for him. The Bill seeks to ensure that we that we have a future generation that is weaned off tobacco, nicotine, and the toxins and the pollutants that come from a range of products, and that we give the tobacco industry no room for manoeuvre to shift from one product to another. It is about ensuring we have a generation that is freed from the addiction and the dirt and the death that tobacco brings.
Tobacco puts a huge pressure on our NHS. It costs taxpayers billions of pounds on our health and care services—a cost of £3.1 billion a year from smoke-related illnesses. The cost of smoking to our economy is also huge: £18.3 billion of productivity lost every year, with smokers being a third more likely to be off sick.
The Bill will deliver on this Labour Government’s manifesto commitment to create the world’s first smoke-free generation. To be fair to the shadow Minister, who supported the Bill on Second Reading and supported the previous iteration of the Bill that her Government introduced, it is to the credit of the right hon. Member for Richmond and Northallerton (Rishi Sunak) that his Government brought in the original iteration of the Tobacco and Vapes Bill. I pay credit to him for showing leadership on public health, and to the shadow Minister for always being a vocal supporter of tobacco control and opponent of the scourge of youth vaping. I only wish that some of her colleagues understood the sense of what we are seeking to do.
Dr Danny Chambers (Winchester) (LD)
I agree with everything that has been said; the Minister has given a powerful summary. We have discussed freedom of choice and the lack of it, and I remind hon. Members of the extreme examples provided by some of the expert witnesses yesterday: they talked about someone who had their leg amputated purely because of complications as a result of smoking, and who, the same day, felt the need to light up another cigarette. There is no freedom of choice when someone is addicted to this substance.
This might sound comical, but it shows that there is no safe level of passive smoking: as vets, we struggle to manage asthma in pets—in dogs and cats—that come from houses where the owners smoke. That is how dangerous it is. This Bill is obviously about public health—I am not trying to conflate human and animal health—but the perception that there is a safe level of smoking is utterly wrong.
Andrew Gwynne
The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. Anyone who heard the evidence on Tuesday cannot but have been shocked at what medical professionals see with their own eyes—not just the procedures they have to use, such as amputations, but the people who are so addicted to that product that they have to light up, even having lost both legs. That was a powerful contribution, and he is right to labour the point that there is no freedom in addiction. We are seeking to free the next generation from ever being in the situation that, as he reminds us, was outlined in detail by professionals in the evidence session.
That leads me to the amendments. Simply raising the age of sale to 25 will only raise the age at which people start smoking; it will not meet this Government’s, or indeed the previous Government’s, ambition to make the United Kingdom smoke-free. We also know—and we heard this from the four chief medical officers of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, in unison—that whenever there has been a change in tobacco control legislation, the tobacco industry is clever; it is smart; it sees that one road has been blocked, so it finds another. The industry has been swift to refocus its tactics. For example, when flavoured cigarettes, including menthol, were banned in the UK, the industry used product innovation to exploit loopholes in the ban. It created new products, such as menthol filter tips and cigarette-like menthol cigarillos.
Those examples demonstrate how the tobacco industry will always regroup and refocus its efforts to respond to whatever regulations are in place. If we raised the age of sale to 25, the industry would likely change its business model to target older age groups.
Let us be clear here about what we are seeking to do. We are not criminalising current smokers; people who are legally able to purchase tobacco products and consume them will always be able to do that. However, we are having a cut-off point. We are saying to the tobacco industry, “This is your customer base now. That’s it. Game over. What you have got is all you have got. You can’t kill two thirds of your customer base and expect other people to come along the conveyor belt. We’re stopping the conveyor belt. What you have got is it.” We will do all we can to make that customer base even smaller through smoking cessation services and effective targeting of existing smokers to help them to quit. But this is it—this is the customer base, and it will shrink rapidly over the next few years, so that no child born after 1 January 2009 can ever legally be sold tobacco products.
That means that the examples we have heard from Members in this debate about a 45-year-old being asked to show ID are an irrelevance. They miss the point. The impact assessment that accompanies the Bill says really clearly that in 25 years’ time—in 2050, which is not that far away—we expect smoking prevalence among people aged 30 and below to be near zero. The logical consequence of that is that there will be very few people of middle adult age going into shops to purchase tobacco. The reality is that there probably will not be a market for tobacco products by then. Retailers will have diversified into selling something else, because there will not be a market of sufficient scale for tobacco to be sold.
All the arguments that we have heard—they have actually been pursued by the tobacco industry—as to why these things are not workable are for the birds. They are for the clouds. They are for another world that does not exist, because the measures in the Bill will ensure that we are smoke-free, and I find that really exciting.
Jim Dickson (Dartford) (Lab)
The Minister is making an extremely eloquent case. He referred to the impact assessment for the Bill. I wonder whether he has spotted that on page 61, the likely societal benefits of having a smoke-free generation are estimated at something like £73 billion by the end of the century. I wonder whether he believes, as I do, that the amendment that we are considering puts that societal benefit hugely at risk.
Andrew Gwynne
It does, for the reasons that I have set out. I thank my hon. Friend for pointing to the impact assessment, because it sets out a very clear reversal of the current situation, in which the costs of tobacco to society, the individual, the economy and our health and care services are massive. In the future, that situation will be reversed—it will become a positive, not a negative—because people will be healthier and living longer. They will not be living with the comorbidities that are a direct consequence of tobacco use. They will be free from addiction. They will actively participate in the economy. That is why we are moving to smoke-free, rather than just shifting the age of sale to a fixed point and continuing to give tobacco companies that conveyor belt. If we did so, people would eventually reach 25 and the tobacco companies would be able to target them again—maybe not in as great a number, but we would have switched the conveyor belt back on.
I want that conveyor belt stopped for the next generation. That is what the last Bill did, to be fair, and it is what this one does. It is about protecting future generations from becoming addicted to nicotine and carrying the horrible burden of disease that is a direct consequence of all tobacco products. Breaking the cycle of addiction and disadvantage and allowing people to live healthier lives—that is true freedom. Let us be clear: there is no freedom in addiction. There is freedom in never being able to be sold tobacco and having a genuinely smoke-free UK. For that reason, I ask the shadow Minister not to press these Liberal Democrat amendments.
Dr Caroline Johnson (Sleaford and North Hykeham) (Con)
I certainly do not want to press the amendments to a vote, but it may be that other members of the Committee do.
The Chair
We now move to amendment 56. I remind hon. Members that I know Sir Roger today indicated a more lateral approach to debate, but I will only take that so far.
Dr Johnson
Thank you, Mr Dowd, for the guidance, and I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Windsor for his intervention.
The age of the customer is important. The principle of existing tobacco legislation is that it protects children under the age of 18 from tobacco. This legislation will protect some adults from tobacco as well.
I have a question for the Minister about the offence. If we get 10 years down the line and we cannot sell tobacco to people under the age of 28 or 26, depending on when legislation takes effect—people in their 20s—we will have one group made up of children, who are not allowed to buy tobacco, and another group made up of adults who are not allowed to buy tobacco. I care deeply about the protection of children, but I believe that adults have a right to choose risk to an extent, where it does not harm others within society. Does the Minister think that, when we get to that point, selling tobacco to a child is a more serious and aggravating factor than selling it, perhaps inadvertently, to a 25-year-old when the age limit is 26? It is being sold to an adult who has the capacity to make a choice—although an illegal choice—about risk, but for the shopkeeper, at that point, selling to a 15-year-old would be a more serious offence.
Andrew Gwynne
I am grateful to the hon. Lady for putting that question, because proportionality is key here to how trading standards will approach the fines regime. The reality, however, is that the law will be clear as to what the age of sale will be. If a retailer has knowingly sold tobacco products—against the law—to someone who it is clear should not have been sold to, trading standards may take a different view than they would were the retailer’s defence that they had every reason to believe that the person was the age they claimed to be.
Dr Johnson
That is not quite what I meant. I guess the question is this: if someone has sold tobacco products to a person of 45 who should not have them because they are now illegal, that is an offence—it is breaking the law as set out in the clause—and would see a penalty applied—[Interruption.] Well, it may see them liable for a penalty—let us put it that way. If the retailer sold that same tobacco to a 14-year-old, would the Minister not agree about the difference? Selling it to a 45-year-old and a 14-year-old might be illegal—the same crime on the face of the Bill—but the penalties for selling tobacco to a minor should be greater than those for selling it to an adult.
Andrew Gwynne
We have heard very clearly from trading standards. The current practice is that trading standards officers across the four jurisdictions of the United Kingdom, which have different penalty regimes in place, apply a degree of proportionality. There is nothing in the Bill that changes that situation. Trading standards will always approach this in a proportionate and responsible way. However, as legislators setting out a clear desire to have a smoke-free generation across the UK, we must be clear that there is a borderline where one side is legal and the other is illegal, and that there are maximum penalties for breaking the law, as there are for a whole range of things. I do not want to differentiate within the smoke-free generation by saying, “Well, you can be a little bit smoke-free because you’re an adult now, but you should be absolutely smoke-free because you are kids.” From 1 January 2009, smoke-free is smoke-free.
Dr Johnson
I understand the Minister’s point. However, my point was that even in a world where things are illegal, we do have aggravating and mitigating circumstances in law. I suggest that, particularly as the rolling generations get older, selling to a child becomes an aggravating offence. I ask the Government to consider that.
Dr Johnson
My hon. Friend makes a valid point. I suggest, so that I do not try the patience of the Chair, that we discuss that when we get to clause 1 stand part, because it speaks to the substance of the clause rather than the substance of these amendments.
Andrew Gwynne
To be very clear, the answer is no. But I will explain why later.
Dr Johnson
As the Minister is in the mood for answering questions, would he like to intervene to say whether the guidance on who specifically will be liable for the fines has been written and published?
Andrew Gwynne
I will happily get back to the shadow Minister on that. On tobacco fines for under-age sales, it is up to trading standards to make a sensible decision—I emphasise the word “sensible”—about whom it seeks to fine. It depends on the circumstances behind the offence. When it is proxy sales, it is the person who buys the product on behalf of the minor who will be fined, rather than the shopkeeper or the business.
The Chair
Order. For the smooth running of the Committee, it would be helpful—rather than having the table tennis that is going on—if Members could ask questions and the Minister answered them when he winds up, and not on this individual level, if possible.
Dr Johnson
Thank you, Mr Dowd. That concludes my remarks on this group of amendments.
Andrew Gwynne
I am grateful to the shadow Minister for bringing these amendments before the Committee. That allows us to have a genuine debate on the nitty-gritty of the Bill and on the enforcement and implementation of the measures that the Government are bringing forward.
As the shadow Minister outlined, the amendments would create a more lenient penalty regime for the offence of selling tobacco, herbal smoking products or cigarette papers to someone who is under age in England and Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. They would create an exception to the maximum penalty a person can face for committing one of these offences—if it is the person’s first offence, that is. They would also establish that someone who admits to committing an offence for the first time would be liable, on summary conviction, to a fine not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale—that is £1,000—or it would instead provide for a discretionary caution in England and Wales, a recorded police warning in Scotland and a conditional caution in Northern Ireland. That is one level lower than the level of fine that someone who commits this offence is liable to under current legislation in England and Wales and Scotland, which is level 4—£2,500 pounds. It is two levels lower than is currently the case in Northern Ireland, which is level 5—£5,000.
I appreciate that the intention of the hon. Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham is to establish greater leniency for first-time offenders, but the amendment is not necessary. My hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff West rightly pointed out that National Trading Standards told the Committee only two days ago, on 7 January, that when enforcing tobacco and vape legislation as it currently stands in England and Wales, it takes an entirely proportionate approach, taking the appropriate action to achieve compliance. Typically, that starts with the issuing of warning letters, which is entirely proportionate for first-time offences. As we heard only two days ago, sending warning letters is often incredibly effective in ensuring future compliance without the need to escalate to harsher penalties such as prosecution and the associated criminal fines, which are subsequently issued by a court on conviction. That proportionate approach is also taken by trading standards officers in Scotland and by district councils in Northern Ireland when enforcing tobacco and vape legislation.
There is absolutely nothing in the Bill or in what we heard from trading standards officers to suggest that anything will change. Trading standards will continue to do the job it is currently doing. It will use the proportionality it is currently using—nothing will change. The approach it takes to decide who to fine will continue. That will be entirely dependent on the case and the evidence in front of trading standards officers, as well as the circumstances. If, as is currently the case for most retailers, it is their first offence, they will get a warning letter. Only if the issue continues will that not be the case. The measures in the Bill do not change one iota how trading standards enforces tobacco control in the four nations of the United Kingdom. That is why it is right that we debate this issue and clarify it not just for the Committee but for the House and those following these proceedings. However, the amendments are not needed, because nothing will change.
As a Government, we have a smoke-free ambition. We take the view that tobacco is uniquely harmful. We want to ensure that the message gets out there loudly and clearly that we are serious about this smoke-free generation policy, so we do not want to weaken the existing penalty regime for tobacco and vape offences. What message would it send out if we watered down the measures as they are today? That would say that we are not taking smoke-free seriously.
I want to make sure that we carry on with the measures in the Bill. Offences must be taken seriously, and it is important that existing consequences are not weakened for first-time offenders or anyone else who commits these offences. We trust trading standards officers—the professionals—to do their job, as they do it day in, day out, week in, week out, and year in, year out, and to apply common sense, proportionality and, ultimately, the law of the land. Therefore, we do not want to remove the ability of the court to issue higher-level fines, where that is viewed as a proportionate penalty. The courts may well view fining certain rogue traders as a proportionate penalty in a particular case. For that reason, I ask the shadow Minister to withdraw the amendment.
Dr Caroline Johnson
The Minister’s response was very interesting. However, could he respond further to a couple of the questions that were asked? First, is it intentional that there is a difference in the level of the fines?
Andrew Gwynne
There are differences across the four nations of the United Kingdom, and those differences are a consequence of the devolution settlement that this Parliament agreed a quarter of a century ago. Of course there are divergences across the jurisdictions, because the four jurisdictions are able to legislate their own penalty regimes and have done so. The measures in the Bill do not change that situation.
We have crafted the Bill after full consultation, and with full agreement and full consent, across the three devolved jurisdictions and the UK Government, which legislates for England in this matter. That is why we do not seek to have a common penalty regime across the UK; we allow the Welsh, the Scots and the Northern Irish to develop their own penalty regimes. However, the law is common across the United Kingdom, and it will be for the trading standards authorities in those jurisdictions to apply the law. It will be for the courts in those jurisdictions to apply the penalty regime that appertains to those jurisdictions.
Dr Johnson
The Minister has somewhat contradicted himself. On the one hand he says that he does not agree with the amendments because he wants to leave the courts free to issue a bigger fine to a rogue trader, and I have sympathy with that argument. But why, in Northern Ireland, should a rogue trader be subject to a higher fine?
Dr Johnson
If Northern Ireland has decided that it wants higher fines and if, as the Minister has said, he wants to take the idea of a smoke-free generation seriously, why, given that the law as it stands in England and Wales is for him to decide—certainly in England, as he is the Minister with responsibility for public health—does he not want the fines in England to be as high as they are in Northern Ireland?
Andrew Gwynne
We are in the bizarre situation where the shadow Minister has gone from wanting to water down the penalties to now wanting to make them higher, in line with Northern Ireland. We have been very clear that we are continuing the existing fine regime for tobacco control in England. We want trading standards officers to continue the proportionality they currently display when they enforce breaches of tobacco control. The Bill changes nothing in the current situation, beyond the fact that there will be a different age of sale that determines whether the law has been broken.
The measures in the Bill have been crafted in a way that suits the desires and the ambitions of the four nations of the United Kingdom, recognising that, in some parts of it, measures are already in place and that, in some parts, the penalties will be different from those in other parts. However, the underlying aim is the same: we expect law enforcement to continue in the way it does, and we expect the situation regarding fines to be as it is set out in current legislation.
Dr Johnson
If I understand the Minister correctly—he can correct me if I am wrong—he is saying that the reason why the fines are different between England, Wales and Northern Ireland is that that is the way they are at the moment.
Dr Johnson
Would he like to see the fines in England rise to the same level as those in Northern Ireland, or is he content with them where they are?
Andrew Gwynne
This is becoming a question and answer session—it is all slightly like an evidence session. That is a decision for future Governments; it is not what we intend in this Bill, which is clear on what the penalty regime will be. I cannot guarantee that some future Government will not decide to alter the penalty regime. That may be a Liberal Democrat Government, a future Labour Government or even a future Conservative Government, when the Conservatives get their act in order, although the differences in the Committee suggest that may be way after the next generation are affected by the Bill to a considerable extent. They will be free to do that, because nothing done by this Parliament can bind future Governments. The Bill sets out the penalty regimes as they are for England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland—and yes, there are differences, because that is devolution.
Dr Johnson
I am grateful to the Minister for his clear answers. The purpose of the amendments is to provoke debate on the proportionality of the punishments in place and to encourage the Minister to provide further guidance on who he expects to be punished—the shopkeeper or the shop—and to consider the levels of penalty across the UK. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
The Chair
With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
New clause 3—Age verification policy—
“(1) A person commits an offence if the person—
(a) carries on a tobacco, herbal smoking product, vaping product or nicotine product business, and
(b) fails to operate an age verification policy in respect of premises at which the person carries on the tobacco, herbal smoking product, vaping product or nicotine product business.
(2) Subsection (1) does not apply to premises (“the business premises”) from which—
(a) tobacco products, herbal smoking products, cigarette papers, vaping products or nicotine products are, in pursuance of a sale, despatched for delivery to different premises, and
(b) no other tobacco, herbal smoking product, vaping product or nicotine product business is carried on from the business premises.
(3) Before the specified date, an “age verification policy” is a policy that steps are to be taken to establish the age of a person attempting to buy a tobacco product, cigarette papers, a vaping product or a nicotine product on the premises (the “customer”) if it appears to the person selling the tobacco product, cigarette papers, vaping product or nicotine product that the customer may be under the age of 25 (or such older age as may be specified in the policy).
(4) After the specified date, an “age verification policy”—
(a) in relation to a tobacco business or herbal smoking product business, is a policy that steps are to be taken to establish the age of a person attempting to buy a tobacco product, cigarette papers, herbal smoking product or cigarette papers on the premises (the “customer”) if it appears to the person selling the tobacco product, cigarette papers, herbal smoking product or cigarette papers that the customer may have been born on or after 1 January 2009 (or such earlier date as may be specified in the policy);
(b) in relation to a vaping product business or nicotine product business, is a policy that steps are to be taken to establish the age of a person attempting to buy a vaping product, or a nicotine product, on the premises (the “customer”) if it appears to the person selling the product that the customer may be under the age of 25 (or such older age as may be specified in the policy).
(5) In relation to times before the end of 2033, the reference in subsection (4)(a) to the customer being born on or after 1 January 2009 (or such earlier date as may be specified in the policy) has effect as a reference to the customer being under the age of 25 (or such older age as may be specified in the policy).
(6) The appropriate national authority may by regulations amend the age specified in subsection (3) or (4)(b).
(7) The appropriate national authority may publish guidance on matters relating to age verification policies, including, in particular, guidance about—
(a) steps that should be taken to establish a customer's age,
(b) documents that may be shown to the person selling a tobacco product, cigarette papers, herbal smoking product, vaping product or nicotine product as evidence of a customer’s age,
(c) training that should be undertaken by the person selling the tobacco product, cigarette papers, herbal smoking product, vaping product or nicotine product,
(d) the form and content of notices that should be displayed in the premises,
(e) the form and content of records that should be maintained in relation to an age verification policy.
(8) A person who carries on a tobacco, herbal smoking product, vaping product or nicotine product business must have regard to guidance published under subsection (7) when operating an age verification policy.
(9) A person guilty of an offence under subsection (1) is liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding level 2 on the standard scale.
(10) Regulations under subsection (6) are subject to the affirmative resolution procedure.
(11) In this section— “the appropriate national authority” means—
(a) in relation to England, the Secretary of State, and
(b) in relation to Wales, the Welsh Ministers,
“herbal smoking product business” means a business involving the sale of herbal smoking products by retail,
“nicotine product business” means a business involving the sale of nicotine products by retail,
“the specified date” is 1 January 2027,
“tobacco business” means a business involving the sale of tobacco products by retail,
“tobacco, herbal smoking product or vaping product business” means a business which involves any one or more of the following—
(a) a tobacco business,
(b) a herbal smoking product business, or
(c) a vaping product business,
“vaping product business” means a business involving the sale of vaping products by retail.”
This new clause introduces a requirement on businesses to operate an age verification policy covering steps to be taken to establish the age of persons attempting to buy tobacco, herbal smoking, vaping/ nicotine products, or cigarette papers. It reflects provisions in place in Scotland to be amended by the Bill.
Amendment 68, in clause 50, page 25, line 38, at end insert—
“(2A) In section 4A (Sale of nicotine vapour products to persons under 18) insert—
(a) in subsection (5), at end insert “, save if it is a first offence.”
(b) after subsection (5) insert—
“(5A) A person who has admitted guilt of a first offence under subsection (1) is liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale or to a recorded police warning.””
This amendment prevents penalties for a first offence pertaining to the sale of nicotine vapour products to persons under 18 in Scotland being a fine not beyond level 3 and provides for a discretionary recorded police warning.
Amendment 69, in clause 50, page 26, line 26, at end insert—
“(ba) in subsection (7), at end insert “, save if it is a first offence.”
(bb) after subsection (7) insert—
“(7A) A person who has admitted guilt of a first offence under subsection (1) is liable to a fine not exceeding level 2 on the standard scale or a recorded police warning.””
This amendment prevents penalties for a first offence pertaining to a failure to operate an age verification policy in Scotland being a fine not beyond level 2 and provides for a discretionary recorded police warning.
Clause 50 stand part.
Clause 68 stand part.
Andrew Gwynne
Amendment 68 would create a more lenient penalty regime for the offence of selling vaping or nicotine products to someone under age in Scotland. It would establish that someone who admits to committing an offence for the first time would be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale, which is £1,000. That is one level lower than the level of the fine to which someone who commits the offence under the current legislation is liable, which is level 4 and £2,500. They could also be given a recorded police warning. However, the effect is slightly unclear, as the police are not responsible for the enforcement of these offences.
Amendment 69 provides for a recorded police warning as an alternative to a fine up to level 2 for the offence of failure to operate an age verification policy in Scotland. While I appreciate the shadow Minister’s intention to establish greater leniency for first-time offenders, the amendment is not necessary. When enforcing tobacco and vape legislation, trading standards takes a proportionate approach, choosing the appropriate action to achieve compliance. As I said in the previous debate, that typically starts with the issuing of warning letters, which is often entirely effective in achieving compliance without the need to escalate to harsher penalties such as prosecution and the associated criminal fines, which are subsequently issued by a court on conviction.
Furthermore, the introduction of a recorded police warning in amendment 69 would add an extra layer of complexity and burden. It is not the responsibility of the police currently, and indeed it will not be under any measure in this Bill, to enforce tobacco and vape sales legislation. That is the responsibility of trading standards. The Government believe that trading standards is best placed to enforce the legislation, as it currently does.
As I said before, we do not want to weaken the existing penalty regime for either tobacco or vape offences by creating exceptions for first-time offenders. Tobacco and vape offences must be taken seriously, and it is important that the existing consequences are not weakened for first-time offenders or anyone else who commits those offences. We do not want to remove the court’s ability to issue a higher-level fine where that is viewed as an entirely proportionate penalty in the case that is before it, or for anyone who has been convicted of those offences.
New clause 3 would introduce a requirement for businesses selling tobacco, herbal smoking, vaping or nicotine products in England and Wales to operate an age verification policy. That policy would require steps to be taken to establish a customer’s age if they look under the age specified by the clause. The new clause seeks to replicate the existing requirements in Scotland. For the purchase of tobacco, herbal smoking products and cigarette papers, from 1 January 2034, when anyone born on or after 1 January 2009 turns 25, the age verification policy would be updated to reflect the new age of sale for those products. That means that a person selling those products from 2034 onwards would be required to take steps to establish a customer’s age if they looked like they were born on or after 1 January 2009. A person selling vaping and nicotine products would be required to take steps to establish a customer’s age if they looked under 25. That would not change in 2034, as the age of sale for those products will remain 18.
While I welcome the intention to ensure that retailers do not sell potentially harmful products to anyone under age, there are trade-offs to be made. We do not want to place undue burden on or limit the flexibility of retailers. They understand their business and their customers. We do not want to force customers to carry ID by introducing mandatory age verification policies. It is already an offence to sell tobacco and vaping products to anyone under age. The majority of retailers sell tobacco and vapes responsibly—it is important to put that on the record. They follow recommended practice and regularly ask for customers’ ID anyway.
Trading standards will continue to take an intelligence-led, proportionate approach to enforce the law through age-of-sale test purchases. New £200 fixed penalty notices introduced by the Bill will allow trading standards to take quicker enforcement action against rogue retailers. The Bill also provides powers for Ministers in England, Wales and Northern Ireland to introduce a licensing scheme for the retail sale of these products to strengthen enforcement and provide trading standards with further opportunities to clamp down on rogue traders.
Andrew Gwynne
The hon. Lady makes an important point. This is not speculation; we have seen it in action. In the period immediately after the indoor smoking ban, for example, the levels of cardiovascular disease in this country plummeted, so we know that tobacco control has almost immediate beneficial health outcomes for those who are at risk from smoking related illness.
Dr Johnson
I thank the Minister for supporting the view that clause 1 will reduce the number of people who smoke. We can argue about how it will reduce the number of smokers and how many people will stop, but either way we know that there will be a significant reduction in the number of smokers. That will significantly benefit people’s health—particularly young people, thanks to the rolling age process. As I have mentioned, it will benefit the health of children—even those as yet not conceived, never mind born—which is important.
The Minister talked about the effect on the NHS and social care. Smokers are likely to need social care 10 years earlier than their non-smoking counterparts. He gave figures in the billions of pounds for the cost to the NHS. Nearly half a million appointments a year are caused by smoking. If we were able to stop that, not only would we have a healthier and happier population who are not miserably addicted and unwell, but we would be able to concentrate NHS resources on other conditions and perhaps reduce waiting lists and waiting times.
The other key benefit of clause 1 relates the economy. Smokers are more likely to die early, which has an economic effect. They are more likely to take time off work as they experience chronic illness. It is estimated that smoking-related absenteeism costs the economy £5 billion annually. When smokers are hospitalised or have illness, they tend to have longer recovery times and more prolonged periods off work than their non-smoking counterparts.
Nicotine is an addictive substance. Nicotine cravings can be experienced by smokers and, as we heard in our discussion with teachers about children and vaping earlier this week, it can disrupt their work day and lead to lack of concentration and reduced focus.
Turning to the environmental impact, smoking is bad for the environment in several ways. Everywhere outside, we can see cigarette butts lying on the floor; that is pollution. The tobacco industry has an effect on the environment right from the get-go, including through deforestation, use of fossil fuels, and pollution caused by waste disposal. Tobacco cultivation requires large amounts of land and water, and the waste of cigarette butts contributes to hazardous litter that harms the ecosystem. Clause 1 will reduce the amount of tobacco consumed, which will reduce the number of cigarette butts and the amount of deforestation, and will therefore reduce waste.
The cultivation process is of particular concern. Tobacco is cultivated in around 125 countries, particularly in low-income regions and places such as Brazil, India and China. It is resource intensive and requires chemicals and pesticides that endanger the environment and public health. It is often grown through monoculture farming, which reduces biodiversity and increases the need for chemicals. It also uses up vast quantities of water, with some estimates suggesting that one smoker’s habit for 50 years could deplete almost 1,400 cubic metres of water, the equivalent of—
Dr Johnson
The Minister is shaking his head. So what is a reasonable step? Unless one is to ask everyone for ID, the first step will be to decide whether to ask the customer in front of them for ID. That step will be, in essence, that shopkeeper or shop worker assess the person’s age.
Research shows that people are usually off by about eight years in their estimates of people’s ages by face alone. In fact, some research shows that if groups of people are shown a face, and the face that they are shown immediately before was a younger face, they will pick a younger age for that second person. If they are first shown an older face, they will pick an older age for that same person. That suggests that who the customer came in with, or who the previous customer was, may have an effect.
At the moment, we are asked to conduct a Challenge 25 check on a customer, but is it as easy to check the age of a 40 or 41-year-old as it is to check the age of someone under 25, or to tell whether someone is young or relatively young? The evidence seems to suggest that people who are close to 25 are quite good at telling whether people are under or over 25, and people who are close to 41 are apparently better at telling whether people are 40 or 41. It depends on age, and there is also an effect of sex and ethnicity.
Given that the Minister rejects new clause 3 tabled by the hon. Member for City of Durham on a policy on checking ID, he does not want people to have a policy on when to check, he does not want people to check everybody and he just indicated that he does not want people to rely on what they think based on looking at people, what reasonable steps would he expect to take place? The Government need to provide further guidance on that.
In the last Parliament, the hon. Member for York Central (Rachael Maskell) tabled an amendment for a nicotine-free generation. She made the point that we have a rolling age of tobacco products, herbal smoking products and cigarette papers, so why not have one for all nicotine products? We know that nicotine is addictive and that the industry will evolve to try to get people hooked to a different form of nicotine product—that may be less or more harmful than tobacco, but it will still be addictive. Their choices will still be taken away, and they will still be having something that they do not want, which costs them money and potentially makes them poorer as a result. If it were to become apparent later that these items were particularly harmful, and one wished to do another rolling ban, one could end up in a situation where there is an age for sale of alcohol, fireworks and all sorts of other things, and two rolling ages with two different dates—one for tobacco, herbal products and cigarette papers, and another for vaping and other nicotine products such as nicotine pouches.
Many of the amendments to the Conservative Government’s very similar Bill were included by this Government in their Bill, so I wonder whether the Minister could comment on why that particular amendment from a Government Member was not included.
Jack Rankin
Judging from the tone of debate so far, I might be the most sceptical about the principle of clauses 1, 50 and 68, and I appreciate that perhaps I am in the minority. I will talk to what I see as the principle of those clauses and put on the record where I agree with the Minister and the shadow Minister. I will also give international examples that we should bear in mind, particularly in relation to the scope of “tobacco products”, which I think is wrong in these clauses.
We talk about a smoke-free generation. If we were to tweak that slightly and call it a “cigarette-free generation”, I would share the aim of the Government and the previous Government; that is laudable pretty much every which way. The Minister, the shadow Minister and Members from across the Committee have made eloquent contributions about the damage that smoking cigarettes does to people over many years. It clearly should be a priority of a Government of any colour to reduce cigarette smoking significantly. As my hon. Friend the Member for Farnham and Bordon eloquently said, we have made significant progress on that. Yes, there has been legislation, but the change has also been cultural. The legislation has been important. Government Members made the point to me earlier that some of the arguments I have used I might have used against previous legislation that sought to put barriers between people and smoking. But the cultural element that my hon. Friend the Member for Farnham and Bordon talked about is deeply embedded in most young people today.
That is why, despite sharing with the Government the aim of moving to a cigarette-free generation, I do not think I can quite get over the principle of what they are doing to civil liberties in this Bill. We are on the journey to a cigarette-free generation anyway, so why would they need to use—I do not mean this in an incendiary way, although they might take it that way—quite draconian powers? I would say that that is what this is.
Jack Rankin
Very simply, in the future, we will create two tiers of adults. Those people are children today, and it is right that in law we prohibit them from smoking, because they cannot make these responsible decisions, but once someone passes the age of 18, we as a society, generally speaking, accept that if they want to make bad choices, they are their bad choices.
Andrew Gwynne
With rights come responsibilities. People have the responsibility both to look after themselves and to not be overly burdensome on the state. We know that the cost of tobacco is borne hugely by the taxpayer. Does the hon. Member therefore not agree that the Bill seeks a very reasonable balance? The draconian measure would be to ban tobacco full stop. The Bill says that those for whom tobacco is not legal today will never be able to purchase it, but everybody else—those who have the civil liberty to purchase and consume tobacco—can do it till the day they die.
Jack Rankin
I take the Minister’s point that in a society in which we are looked after by our NHS, to which we all contribute, which is free at the point of use and which I am sure all of us across the House support, when someone smokes and creates a burden on society through health or social care, that is the responsibility of us all.
Where I think the difference lies is where we make a moral choice. I have heard different figures for the cost from cigarettes. There are different studies. I have heard numbers as low as £20 billion, but I think that today the Minister used £80 billion when talking about productivity. I think that should be calculated properly and appropriately with evidence, but if that is the cost, that is what we should levy in excise duty, at which point the people who impose that burden are the people paying it. That is where I would go, in principle. I think that if we go beyond that point, we are starting to make a moral decision on behalf of others.
Jack Rankin
I thank the hon. Member for his point. Forgive me if I did say it was easy, but I try to pick my words carefully, and I do not think I did say that. I said they had agency, and that is a different point.
Linked to that is the fact that too often—not just on this issue—we talk about waving our magic wand with legislation to make things illegal. But that is not the way that the world works. I am concerned that there is the potential, with draconian legislation such as this, to exacerbate the illicit trade in tobacco, which will reduce the effectiveness of the regulations and the public health messages.
Andrew Gwynne
At this rate, I am going to start referring to the hon. Gentleman as the hon. Member for the Institute of Economic Affairs—I am sure he has got the briefing. He probably sees that as a compliment, but believe me, it really is not. He talks about illicit trade, but let us talk facts. The last time there was a major piece of tobacco control in this country those same arguments were made, but the illicit trade fell by 25%. There is absolutely no evidence that, with the appropriate enforcement—through His Majesty’s Revenue and Customs, border control and trading standards—there will be any increase in illicit trade as a consequence of the Bill.
Jack Rankin
Does the Minister perhaps not see the difficulty with the fact that we will be out of international lockstep with everybody? My understanding is that both New Zealand and Malaysia introduced a generational ban policy, and both have been repealed.
Jack Rankin
I am well aware that that is the case. Part of the reason for that change in Government—although I do not want to overplay the significance of this singular issue—was that the incoming Government made an argument about the practicalities of enforcing such a law. Frankly, that is a significant concern of mine.
Andrew Gwynne
Before the hon. Member moves off his point about the international picture, I think it is a point of pride that the United Kingdom—all four nations —will be the world leader. We thought we were going to be in second place behind New Zealand. I pity New Zealand, given the predicament it finds itself in, because it was leading the way. However, this Government—building on the actions of the last Government—will be the world leader. I reassure the hon. Member that, as I saw when I was representing the United Kingdom at the G20 Health Ministers summit in Rio de Janeiro late last year, the world is queuing up to look at what we do here. They all want to implement these measures. They wished us the best of luck and want this to work. We are going to make it work and lead the way in the world.
Jack Rankin
I sympathise with what the Minister says about the world wanting us to make it work. I will make an analogy that I think is directly relevant. My expertise before joining this House was in renewables development. The United Kingdom, particularly under this Government, has been quite aggressive on renewables; the Conservative party was quite aggressive on them too, and the new Government have come in, continued those policies and been more aggressive. The Government are clear that they want to be world leaders, but in the past week the United Kingdom was incredibly close to blackouts.
If you are a leader and you do something successfully, whether on renewables or cigarettes, you may well lead the world forward, and the Minister is right to say that other countries would want to follow us on this issue. However, there is an under-spoken truth about being a leader, and perhaps being first. Clearly, the Minister is passionate about the issue, as is clear in not just what he says, but how he says it; he wants the United Kingdom to lead on this, and I am sure he will be as forceful as possible. But a leader is also a warning if they do not succeed. If we make moves that are too draconian, too quick or over-eager on energy, and we get it wrong, that could mean blackouts. If that happens because we have taken an aggressive approach, no one will follow us. We will be a warning. For leaders, it goes both ways.
Andrew Gwynne
I am sorry to prolong the debate, Mr Dowd, but the hon. Gentleman should believe in his country with a bit more passion. The patriotic case for leading the way on tobacco control is clear, and the world has been looking for some time at the United Kingdom and the measures that we have brought in over the past two decades. They have been incremental steps to get us to the point where we are absolutely determined, and where it is a viable proposition, that this country will be smoke-free. The hon. Gentleman should believe in this country a bit more, back the Bill and show the world that the real freedom is freedom from addiction to tobacco.
Jack Rankin
I thank the Minister for his passionate remarks, which I am obviously not going to take lying down. I agree wholeheartedly that the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is the greatest country in the world, but before I try to make some progress, I might humbly suggest to him that a lot of that greatness may be based on the primacy of the individual and our rights to get on with our lives.
Andrew Gwynne
Thank you, Mr Dowd. At least, in taking your deep breath, you will not be passive smoking—it is a healthier deep breath than it might otherwise be. I thank all hon. Members for their input into the debate on these amendments and new clauses, as well as clause stand part. I will try to address the points that have been made.
First, I will clarify my previous contribution. The police do of course enforce the law on smoking in cars with children; we were talking about the retail side of things, and the police do not have a role in enforcement in retail—I just wanted to make that clarification.
Dr Johnson
Will the Minister therefore clarify something for the record or for anyone listening to proceedings? If one is suspicious that a particular retailer is selling tobacco products to children or, in the fullness of time, to those who should not be receiving it, to whom do they report it?
Andrew Gwynne
These are matters for trading standards. Trading standards is the enforcement authority. If people have a concern today about a retailer in their area that is potentially selling tobacco or alcohol products to people who are under age, they should report it to trading standards. Trading standards will investigate, and may even do test purchasing as one of the tools at its disposal. As we discussed previously, should that test purchase unfortunately show that someone was sold a particular product under the legal age, appropriate action can be taken within the framework of law, and that will continue to be the case under the Bill. For a first offence, that might be a written letter, or it might be amplified through the court process, depending on the severity and the particular situation.
I want to dwell briefly on the comments of the hon. Member for Farnham and Bordon. He is right that many young people now do not smoke; certainly, they do not smoke in the numbers they did when I was a young lad, when my peers took up smoking. That is a good thing, and as a consequence of the past two decades of tobacco control measures, we have got to the place we are in, but let us not be complacent. The hon. Member for Windsor is keen on international comparisons, and we have seen increases in youth smoking in the USA and Australia because there has not necessarily been the concerted tobacco control that we want to see. I do not want to see smoking prevalence increase in the United Kingdom as an unintended consequence of saying, “Well, we have sorted it with the kids. It’s all right.”
I had the privilege of being interviewed by LADbible. I did not even know what LADbible was, but now I am aware, because I ended up with not one story, but a set of four stories off the back of this Bill. It is incredibly keen on reporting on this Bill—no doubt it is listening in to the proceedings. One of the questions I was asked was whether I was concerned that young people are again being bombarded with images on social media of film stars and influencers—whatever the trendy term is for the great and the good these days—smoking. As in the images that we used to see in magazines and newspapers, it looks sexy again, and I am concerned about that. My answer was that it is often best for politicians not to give advice to kids, because they think, “Yeah, whatever—you would say that,” but, as a father and a grandfather, my advice to the next generation is that there is nothing sexy about having yellow fingertips. There is nothing sexy about having a cough. There is nothing sexy about clothes stinking. There is nothing sexy about bad breath.
Cigarettes and tobacco are not sexy, but we cannot be complacent that we have fixed the problem. That is why we need to stop that conveyor belt so that the tobacco industry of today knows that the customer base of today is it. We are coming after the industry, because I want to beat the addiction that the hon. Member for Windsor talks about. I want to ensure that those millions of smokers in the United Kingdom, whether in Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland or England, have every opportunity to give up, to break that addiction and to be free. That is real liberty.
Dr Johnson
In the impact assessment, it says that 95% of people cannot give up through willpower alone. Will the Minister congratulate my right hon. Friend the Member for Basildon and Billericay (Mr Holden), who told me that over Christmas he has managed to give up smoking using willpower alone? This is the first time that he has not been smoking.
Andrew Gwynne
I do not want to tempt fate or for the right hon. Gentleman to end up smoking again, but that is great. Anybody who manages to break free of that addiction and to do so on their own—through willpower alone—is incredibly tough. That is why the previous Government committed to funding for smoking cessation services and introduced things such as swap to stop. This Government are continuing that investment into stop smoking services, and we are determined that anybody who wants to give up will have everything that we can throw at them to help them off their addiction. However, for the next generation, that is it—we have stopped that conveyor belt, because we know that the tobacco industry will target them wherever we put the borders. The measures in clause 1 are so important.
The shadow Minister asked why 2009. I will let the cat out of the bag: not everything that the right hon. Member for Richmond and Northallerton (Rishi Sunak) did was bad. The previous Tobacco and Vapes Bill showed real leadership by him. Announcing it at the Conservative party conference did not just take Conservatives such as the hon. Member for Windsor by surprise; it took a lot of us by surprise, because we had been calling for precisely the New Zealand model after Javed Khan had reported back. We think that 2009 is appropriate.
I get the urgency of this issue, and I share the urgency outlined by the shadow Minister to bring the date forward, but we have to be real here. As the hon. Member for South Northamptonshire said, we want these measures to be workable and we want this Bill to be a success. The lead-in time is slightly shortened, because the Bill was parked due to the general election and had to be reintroduced, but it gives us an appropriate lead-in time for these big changes, particularly in our engagement with the retail sector and in getting some of these measures right for the retail sector. We are working with the sector on guidance and on how we allay some of the concerns that have rightly been raised in the course of this debate. Subject to Royal Assent, the measures in the Bill will come into force on 1 January 2027. That is an appropriate, proportionate and measured way of reaching our ambition of getting to smoke-free and working with industry to get us there. That is why we have gone for 2009.
The shadow Minister mentioned bongs and other paraphernalia. This is an issue that really gets on my nerves, because it is possible to walk down Strutton Ground, the street just at the side of the Department of Health and Social Care, and see vape shops there that not only have all the colourful packages of vapes, but what I consider to be drug paraphernalia, in their windows. That is the result of a loophole. Under drugs legislation, which of course is the remit of the Home Office, such paraphernalia can be displayed by shops so long as it is not sold for the use of drugs consumption.
We all know what bongs are for, and I have raised this issue with the Minister for Policing, Fire and Crime Prevention, who shares my view that we need to crack down on it. I asked my officials whether we could end up with a perverse situation, whereby the measures in the Bill mean that, subject to consultation, the display of vapes—all those colourful packages—would be replaced by vapes in plain packages and in cabinets locked away, not to be seen and with the shop window bare of them, but instead the shop window could be full of bongs. That would be a real perversity, where it would not be possible—rightly—to see tobacco or vape products in the windows of these establishments, but it would be possible to see drugs paraphernalia in them instead.
My officials assure me that the only reason that such shops can sell bongs, rather than display them, is because bongs can also be used to smoke tobacco products. That is the loophole. Given that we are bringing within the scope of the Bill a number of things that can be used to smoke tobacco and banning their display, that means—thank God—that the measures in the Bill will get rid of that awful loophole. That will mean that shops around the country, including shops just around the corner from the Department of Health and Social Care, will no longer be able to show drugs paraphernalia in their windows.
Dr Caroline Johnson
The Minister is making a very powerful and impassioned speech; I get the impression that he finds this situation frustrating. I wonder whether he will put a clause in the Bill that specifies bongs and other such paraphernalia, because, although a bong may be a product for using tobacco with, it is not a tobacco product, is it? So which clause will ban them?
Andrew Gwynne
We believe that a bong is a tobacco product, because the only reason shops are able to treat bongs as not being drugs paraphernalia and therefore to sell them is for the consumption of tobacco. There are all the other things that are addressed in the Bill, such as pipes and so on, and bongs are no different. Therefore, we will make sure that the loophole that currently exists when it comes to drugs paraphernalia is closed.
Bongs are not explicitly dealt with in the Bill, but the hon. Lady raised them as an issue and they are a real bugbear of mine. As I am sure she can tell, dealing with them is something that I have been championing, both with officials in the Department of Health and Social Care and with my colleague the police Minister. I am assured—indeed, I am reassured—that a consequence of the measures in the Bill will be that bongs will no longer be able to be displayed for sale in shops.
Dr Johnson
The Minister is making a very impassioned point and I am grateful to him for doing so. Given his great passion for this area and the fact that, as the Minister for Public Health, he has his hands on the levers of power, so it is up to him—to govern is to choose—why has he not chosen to put in a specific mention of these products? It is up to him to do so if he wishes.
Andrew Gwynne
Because we do not need to. The measures in the Bill cover these bongs. For example, although it is not a direct tobacco product, clause 45 gives Ministers the power to cover devices used to consume tobacco, which is the power to say, “Well, you’re selling these bongs. We know it’s for drugs, but you’re selling these bongs on the basis that it is to consume tobacco.” Therefore, they are no longer covered because clause 45 gives Ministers the power to do that.
I will try to rattle through because I know Members are very keen to get to other parts of the United Kingdom for which transport is not easily available. Apologies if I miss anything. I will try not to take interventions as a consequence—I hope Members will forgive me for that. On whether the rules apply to snuff in Parliament, I do not know the answer off the top of my head; perhaps I should. I have been around here for such a long time that I remember the implementation of the indoor smoking ban. My recollection is that Parliament was not covered because it is a royal palace, and we got a bit of flak for that. Rightly, the parliamentary authorities decided that they would apply the law within the Palace of Westminster, even though the law did not apply to it, and that is why the Smoking Room is smoke-free. It may well be that snuff goes the same way, but I imagine those will be matters for the House authorities.
On reasonable steps and what they are, retailers may check other forms of ID, not just the forms outlined in the Bill—for example, that may include veterans ID cards. We are very clear that other forms of ID can be shown, as long as the retailer can show that they have taken all reasonable steps to avoid selling to a person under age, and that is the important thing.
On tourists and the potential for the President of the United States not to be able to attend a G7 if he wants to have a cigarette, the duty-free rules are not changing. Those coming into Great Britain from outside the UK are allowed to bring an amount of tobacco for personal use, which is 200 cigarettes or 250 g of tobacco, although there is no personal allowance for those under 17. The President of the USA can bring 200 cigarettes with him to a future G7—that is not an issue.
On enforceability, as I have said, trading standards is responsible for enforcing tobacco and vape sales, and district councils are responsible for regulations at a local level in England, Wales and Scotland. In Northern Ireland, Border Force and HMRC also have an important role to stamp out opportunities for criminals in the illicit tobacco trade. We are working closely with retail associations and will develop guidance with them to support the successful implementation of the enforcement measures in the Bill. That is a really important point, and it leads into the point made by the shadow Minister on why we are not bringing the measures of the Bill further forward. We want that lead-in time to get these measures right so that retailers are clear on both what those measures are and how we can work with them to get it right.
The Bill introduces a new defence in England, Wales and Northern Ireland for retailers accused of selling to someone under age, if the retailer can prove that they were shown an identity document that shows the customer was above the age of sale. The Bill sets that out, but as I have said, other forms of ID are not unreasonable.
On protecting retail staff from abuse, we are working really closely with retailers and will use the long lead-in time to support them in preparing for and implementing these changes. We will not stand for violence and abuse against any shop workers. Everybody has the right to feel safe on the job and this Government will introduce a new offence of assaulting a retail worker to protect the hard-working and dedicated staff who work in the stores.
The Chair
Order. Given the time, if the Whip wants to move the adjournment, I have decided to permit returning to this debate at 9.25 am on Tuesday, if the Minister wishes.
Andrew Gwynne
Mr Dowd, I think that is very sensible. Certainly, in other Bill Committees that I have been on in the near two decades that I have been here, I have seen Ministers be cut off at the time of interruption, to continue their oration when the Committee next meets. That is partly why I wanted to sit down at the time agreed by the usual channels.
Ordered, That the debate be now adjourned.—(Taiwo Owatemi.)
Tuesday 14th January 2025
(1 year, 6 months ago)
Public Bill CommitteesTobacco and Vapes Act 2026 Read Hansard Text Amendment Paper: Public Bill Committee Amendments as at 14 January 2025 - (14 Jan 2025)
This text is a record of ministerial contributions to a debate held as part of the Tobacco and Vapes Act 2026 passage through Parliament.
In 1993, the House of Lords Pepper vs. Hart decision provided that statements made by Government Ministers may be taken as illustrative of legislative intent as to the interpretation of law.
This extract highlights statements made by Government Ministers along with contextual remarks by other members. The full debate can be read here
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
The Chair
I remind the Committee that with this we are considering the following:
New clause 3—Age verification policy—
“(1) A person commits an offence if the person—
(a) carries on a tobacco, herbal smoking product, vaping product or nicotine product business, and
(b) fails to operate an age verification policy in respect of premises at which the person carries on the tobacco, herbal smoking product, vaping product or nicotine product business.
(2) Subsection (1) does not apply to premises (‘the business premises’) from which—
(a) tobacco products, herbal smoking products, cigarette papers, vaping products or nicotine products are, in pursuance of a sale, despatched for delivery to different premises, and
(b) no other tobacco, herbal smoking product, vaping product or nicotine product business is carried on from the business premises.
(3) Before the specified date, an ‘age verification policy’ is a policy that steps are to be taken to establish the age of a person attempting to buy a tobacco product, cigarette papers, a vaping product or a nicotine product on the premises (the ‘customer’) if it appears to the person selling the tobacco product, cigarette papers, vaping product or nicotine product that the customer may be under the age of 25 (or such older age as may be specified in the policy).
(4) After the specified date, an ‘age verification policy’—
(a) in relation to a tobacco business or herbal smoking product business, is a policy that steps are to be taken to establish the age of a person attempting to buy a tobacco product, cigarette papers, herbal smoking product or cigarette papers on the premises (the ‘customer’) if it appears to the person selling the tobacco product, cigarette papers, herbal smoking product or cigarette papers that the customer may have been born on or after 1 January 2009 (or such earlier date as may be specified in the policy);
(b) in relation to a vaping product business or nicotine product business, is a policy that steps are to be taken to establish the age of a person attempting to buy a vaping product, or a nicotine product, on the premises (the ‘customer’) if it appears to the person selling the product that the customer may be under the age of 25 (or such older age as may be specified in the policy).
(5) In relation to times before the end of 2033, the reference in subsection (4)(a) to the customer being born on or after 1 January 2009 (or such earlier date as may be specified in the policy) has effect as a reference to the customer being under the age of 25 (or such older age as may be specified in the policy).
(6) The appropriate national authority may by regulations amend the age specified in subsection (3) or (4)(b).
(7) The appropriate national authority may publish guidance on matters relating to age verification policies, including, in particular, guidance about—
(a) steps that should be taken to establish a customer’s age,
(b) documents that may be shown to the person selling a tobacco product, cigarette papers, herbal smoking product, vaping product or nicotine product as evidence of a customer’s age,
(c) training that should be undertaken by the person selling the tobacco product, cigarette papers, herbal smoking product, vaping product or nicotine product,
(d) the form and content of notices that should be displayed in the premises,
(e) the form and content of records that should be maintained in relation to an age verification policy.
(8) A person who carries on a tobacco, herbal smoking product, vaping product or nicotine product business must have regard to guidance published under subsection (7) when operating an age verification policy.
(9) A person guilty of an offence under subsection (1) is liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding level 2 on the standard scale.
(10) Regulations under subsection (6) are subject to the affirmative resolution procedure.
(11) In this section—‘the appropriate national authority’ means—
(a) in relation to England, the Secretary of State, and
(b) in relation to Wales, the Welsh Ministers,
‘herbal smoking product business’ means a business involving the sale of herbal smoking products by retail,
‘nicotine product business’ means a business involving the sale of nicotine products by retail,
‘the specified date’ is 1 January 2027,
‘tobacco business’ means a business involving the sale of tobacco products by retail,
‘tobacco, herbal smoking product or vaping product business’ means a business which involves any one or more of the following—
(a) a tobacco business,
(b) a herbal smoking product business, or
(c) a vaping product business,
‘vaping product business’ means a business involving the sale of vaping products by retail.”
This new clause introduces a requirement on businesses to operate an age verification policy covering steps to be taken to establish the age of persons attempting to buy tobacco, herbal smoking, vaping/ nicotine products, or cigarette papers. It reflects provisions in place in Scotland to be amended by the Bill.
Amendment 68, in clause 50, page 25, line 38, at end insert—
“(2A) In section 4A (Sale of nicotine vapour products to persons under 18) insert—
(a) in subsection (5), at end insert ‘, save if it is a first offence.’
(b) after subsection (5) insert—
‘(5A) A person who has admitted guilt of a first offence under subsection (1) is liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale or to a recorded police warning.’”
This amendment prevents penalties for a first offence pertaining to the sale of nicotine vapour products to persons under 18 in Scotland being a fine not beyond level 3 and provides for a discretionary recorded police warning.
Amendment 69, in clause 50, page 26, line 26, at end insert—
“(ba) in subsection (7), at end insert ‘, save if it is a first offence.’
(bb) after subsection (7) insert—
‘ (7A) A person who has admitted guilt of a first offence under subsection (1) is liable to a fine not exceeding level 2 on the standard scale or a recorded police warning.’”
This amendment prevents penalties for a first offence pertaining to a failure to operate an age verification policy in Scotland being a fine not beyond level 2 and provides for a discretionary recorded police warning.
Clause 50 stand part.
Clause 68 stand part.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Care (Andrew Gwynne)
Before we were rudely disturbed by the weekend—I hope that all Members had a good one—we were coming to the conclusion of the debate on this grouping. I thank all hon. Members for their valuable contributions to discussions last week; I will continue to respond to the outstanding points raised in the previous sitting.
On the Windsor framework, we are proud to say that the Bill is UK-wide and has been developed in partnership, in full, with the Scottish Government, Welsh Government and Northern Ireland Executive. This Government, and I hope this House, intend the smoke-free generation policy to apply to all four nations.
Dr Caroline Johnson (Sleaford and North Hykeham) (Con)
I have a quick question for the Minister about some of his answers last week about the clause. He said that tobacco products would include bongs, and was quite passionate about that. But clause 48, which is meant to be read in relation to clause 1, defines “tobacco product” as something that contains tobacco. I have seen bongs made of glass, ceramics and various other things, but I have never seen one that contains tobacco. It is certainly easy to make one that does not contain tobacco. I am therefore interested in why the Minister believes that the Bill equates bongs and tobacco products.
Andrew Gwynne
I am grateful to the shadow Minister for that. We will come on to those issues in more detail when we eventually reach those clauses, which given the rate of progress so far may be in the early hours of tomorrow morning, if Members decide so. The only reason why such paraphernalia is on display and legally sold is to consume tobacco, but we will get more information on that for her when we get to clause 45, which covers that issue.
I was talking about the Windsor framework. We believe that this policy is in accordance with our international obligations. In terms of what products are in scope, the Bill captures all tobacco products, including shisha, cigars and heated tobacco. That is because all tobacco products are harmful. There is no safe level of tobacco consumption. For example, tobacco smoke from cigars leads to the same types of disease as the smoke from cigarettes. In England alone, around five times as many people smoke other tobacco products, such as cigars, as did a decade ago, and children are a part of that increase. Shisha, to which the hon. Member for Windsor referred, also causes the same diseases as cigarettes, including cancer, respiratory diseases and cardiovascular diseases. The volume of smoke produced in the average 45-minute shisha session is estimated to be the same as around 25 cigarettes’-worth of tar, 11 cigarettes’-worth of carbon monoxide and two cigarettes’-worth of nicotine.
Finally, there is clear evidence about the toxicity of heated tobacco. The aerosol generated by heated tobacco also contains carcinogens, and there will be some risk to the health of anyone using those products. The crucial point is that, unlike with vapes, there is no evidence that heated tobacco supports smoking cessation. We must ensure that the Bill is future-proofed to include new or novel products, such as heated tobacco, to protect the public from the harms of tobacco use.
Although cigarettes are the most used form of tobacco, we do not want to create loopholes in the Bill so that the tobacco industry can pivot and continue addicting people to tobacco. As I said previously, the issue is about saying, “The market share you’ve got now is it. We are stopping the conveyor belt.” As we know, if we block one road, the tobacco industry finds another route through. We are making sure that the Bill is as watertight and future-proof as possible so that the tobacco industry can no longer continue to trade with another product that harms and addicts future generations.
Sarah Bool (South Northamptonshire) (Con)
I want to look specifically at clause 1(3), which relates to identity documents. In the previous sitting, the Minister said that he would have powers to change the list of identity documents; I think he was referring to clause 46. But at the moment the definition of identity documents is very tight; only the six listed are permitted. My hon. Friend the shadow Minister mentioned veterans cards, and this would be an ample opportunity to include those, as was the intention, because the definition is very strict—people will be able to use only the listed documents.
A further question that has been raised is that the list rules out digital forms of identification, as those listed are physical. I want to understand how retailers can best enforce the measures in practice.
Andrew Gwynne
I do not want to go over the arguments that I have already put to the Committee in an earlier sitting, but there is an ability to use other forms of identification, as I set out. We will be working with the retail industry during the long lead-in time to get in place procedures that retailers are confident with. They will be able to ask for veterans cards, for example.
Andrew Gwynne
Can the hon. Lady let me finish answering the point she put to me? In fact, I have now forgotten the point she put to me—[Laughter.]
Sarah Bool
I was talking from a legal perspective. Clause 1(3) is about what “identity document” means, which obviously means that those listed are the six that people are allowed to use. I take the point that later the Minister could introduce regulations to allow for veterans cards, but legally a retailer’s defence would have to be that they were shown what appeared to be an identity document, which means:
“(a) a passport,
(b) a UK driving licence,
(c) a driving licence issued by any of the Channel Islands or the Isle of Man,
(d) a European Union photocard driving licence, or
(e) an identity card issued by the Proof of Age Standards Scheme”.
The clause is very specific. Whatever the intention, the retailer would not technically be able to use having been shown a veterans card as a defence. Hence I am asking whether we should consider the issue at this point, rather than relying on the regulations mentioned in clause 46.
Andrew Gwynne
I stand by what I have already said. The intention is to work with the retail industry during the long lead-in time to get the mechanisms in place that allow them to adequately enforce the measures in the Bill. We do not want to get this wrong. I politely say to the hon. Lady, however, that in the first instance it is highly unlikely that a veteran born before 1 January 2009 will seek to purchase cigarettes or other tobacco products and be queried about their age. I will take on board what has been said and, if what I said earlier is incorrect, we can perhaps come back to the issue.
I want to come back to tobacco products because the point is crucial. We want to ensure that the tobacco industry has that conveyor belt cut-off. It is therefore rational for all the products that I have mentioned to be included in the smoke-free generation legislation. That will prevent anyone from taking up use of the products in the first place.
As I stated in my opening speech, I am grateful to the hon. Member for Windsor for bringing the discussion before the Committee, but while I appreciate his intention, it is not something the Government support. In relation to the amendments, I say to the Committee that the Government do not believe it is appropriate to establish a more lenient penalty regime for the offences, or to introduce a mandatory age-verification policy.
The clause seeks to change the age of sale for tobacco products, herbal smoking products and cigarette papers in England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland so that no one born on or after 1 January 2009 will legally be sold those products. The Bill will be the biggest public health intervention in a generation, breaking the cycle of addiction and disadvantage, and putting us on track towards a smoke-free UK. For those reasons, I commend the clause to the Committee.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 1 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Dr Johnson
On a point of order, Mr Dowd. May I ask a procedural question? I heard some Members shout, “Aye”, and some Members shout, “No”. In the previous session we recorded what Members said, but we have not done so this time. Can I inquire as to what the reason for that is? Last time there was a vote that was then recorded for Hansard, but that has not happened this time.
Dr Johnson
My apologies. I was explaining the principle behind Opposition amendments 58 and 59, which are in my name. I do not know whether the hon. Member for Eastleigh was present on Thursday afternoon. Clause 2 refers to a “person” but does not specify who that person is, and there is as yet no guidance. The Minister said that the person could be the shopkeeper, the shop worker, the chief executive officer or whoever trading standards decided was the right person.
The fines to deter or punish illegal behaviour would necessarily need to be significantly larger for a large corporation than for a young chap of 19 working a few hours in the corner shop on a Saturday afternoon, for whom some fines would be quite punitive. The amendments allow for first offences to be treated leniently, in comparison with repeat offences, and their aim is to encourage the Government to think more carefully about guidance. When the previous Bill was introduced last Easter by the Conservative Government, with very similar wording in many cases, that Government produced guidance on how those charges would be applied. I am trying to encourage the Government to do the same thing. That is the purpose of the amendments.
I will endeavour to speak a bit louder. I do not know whether the hearing loop is working—
Andrew Gwynne
I am grateful to the shadow Minister for bringing this discussion to the Committee. As we have already argued, the amendments would create a more lenient penalty regime for the offence of purchasing tobacco, herbal smoking products or cigarette papers on behalf of someone under age—commonly known as proxy purchasing. In England, Wales and Northern Ireland, the amendments would create an exception to the maximum penalty that a person could face for committing that offence, if it was the person’s first offence. The amendments would establish that someone who admits to committing an offence for the first time would be liable, on summary conviction,
“to a fine not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale”,
which is £1,000, or liable instead to a discretionary caution in England and Wales or to a conditional caution in Northern Ireland. That is one level lower than the fine for which someone who committed that offence would be liable under the current legislation in England and Wales—level 4, which is £2,500. It is two levels lower than in Northern Ireland, where the fine would be at level 5, which is £5,000.
The amendments would have a similar effect on first-time offences as amendments that we have already discussed. If the Committee is content, I will not repeat myself as the rationale for asking the shadow Minister to withdraw the amendment remains the same as that for amendments that we have already covered.
Dr Johnson
Amendments 75 and 76 have the same principle behind them, so I will not repeat myself. They relate to clause 69; as hon. Members will recall, clause 69 amends Northern Ireland legislation that is similar to the legislation in clause 2. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Andrew Gwynne
These clauses make it an offence in England, Wales and Northern Ireland for someone over the age of 18 to buy or attempt to buy tobacco products, herbal smoking products or cigarette papers for someone born on or after 1 January 2009. That is called proxy purchasing. Clause 2 replaces the current offence under the Children and Families Act 2014 of someone aged 18 or over buying or attempting to buy tobacco products or cigarette papers on behalf of someone who is under 18 in England and Wales.
Clause 69 amends the offence of proxy purchasing in Northern Ireland to align to the change in the age of sale. That applies to tobacco products, herbal smoking products and cigarette papers.
Gregory Stafford (Farnham and Bordon) (Con)
The Minister said that this measure was to prevent people from buying cigarettes, cigarette papers or tobacco products for people under the age of 18. Obviously, when the Bill is first passed, that will be true, but with every progressive year, it will prevent buying for people aged 19, 20, 21 and 22. Why has the Minister not made a differential in law to ensure that, once the Bill is in place, there is a separate and more serious offence of buying tobacco products for someone under 18, however far in the future, and a separate offence of buying them for an adult who is ineligible to have them?
Andrew Gwynne
The hon. Gentleman makes a reasonable point. The Bill ensures that no one over the age of 18 is legally able to purchase tobacco products on behalf of someone under the legal age of sale, and there is a differential over time there. The age of 18 was chosen as it avoids criminalising children. This measure applies to all adults, and it does not allow for any ambiguity in law in the future. For example, it captures a situation in which someone over the age of 18, but under the legal age of sale for tobacco, attempts to buy products for a child. This action would be restricted, and the liability would not only be on the person selling the tobacco product, but also on the adult attempting to buy that product for the child.
These clauses align proxy purchasing offences with the new age of sale restriction for England, Wales and Northern Ireland. They provide a defence if a person charged with this offence can prove they had no reason to suspect that the person was born on or after 1 January 2009 or they can prove that they had no reason to believe that the other person intended to use the cigarette papers for smoking, which is in line with existing defences. These clauses are essential to ensure that there are no loopholes in the age of sale legislation, and they build on what works in the current age of sale legislation. I therefore commend the clauses to the Committee.
Dr Johnson
Clause 2 makes it an offence for a person aged 18 or over to make a proxy purchase of tobacco products, herbal smoking products or cigarette papers for a person born on or after 1 January 2009. It essentially stops an older person going in and buying those products for a younger person, which we are aware has been happening for many years with both tobacco and alcohol. If found guilty, the person committing the offence faces a level 4 fine on the standard scale, which hon. Members will recall is £2,500.
The clause replaces the current offence under section 91 of the Children and Families Act of someone aged over 18 buying or attempting to buy tobacco products or cigarette papers on behalf of someone aged under 18 in England and Wales. In many ways, that seems a sensible consequence to clause 1. If we want it to be illegal for people born after a set date to have tobacco, it makes sense to ensure that people cannot buy it for them.
However, I have some questions, particularly in relation to cigarette papers. I did not particularly talk about cigarette papers in our discussion of clause 1 because they are more rightly talked about in relation to clause 2, which treats cigarette papers differently, in so far as it makes them illegal unless a person can prove that they are using them for something else. I looked into what that something else might be. I naively thought that cigarette papers were essentially just bits of paper of a particular thinness that could be rolled up and stuck together with a little gum arabic once somebody had rolled whatever they wanted to roll inside them; in fact, that turns out not to be the case because of the law.
The papers contain ethylene-vinyl acetate, which makes them more fire-resistant. The sad situation is that every year people smoke in bed or in their armchair, fall asleep and cause themselves burns, and sometimes even cause death or house fires. The ethylene-vinyl acetate—a sort of plastic—added to cigarette papers helps them to self-extinguish and reduces the risk of fires; we know that some particularly dreadful fires, such as the Kings Cross fire, are believed to have been caused by loose cigarettes.
The cigarette papers are essentially made from plant fibre, such as bamboo flax and rice, but they can be flavoured and coloured. In the evidence given to the Committee last Tuesday, we heard about the tobacco industry’s aim of ensuring that younger people are enticed by colours and flavours. A quick look at Amazon—other sellers are, of course, available—reveals that people can buy cigarette papers in a whole range of bright colours. People can also buy cigarette papers with pictures of cherries, apricots, bubbles and all sorts of things on them. I thought it was interesting that that has not been covered in relation to cigarette papers. Why give an exemption allowing them to continue to be sold when the reality is that they will continue to be used for rolling either illegal tobacco or other forms of illegal drug?
Jack Rankin
I believe that is the case, and it is something I did not know before today. My questions were along the lines of: is this not just paper, and, if so, why is it excluded in some sense? I was racking my brain for legitimate reasons, and, in her speech, the shadow Minister gave some legitimate reasons, whether that is the woodwind instruments, or the model making mentioned by the Member for Chatham and Aylesford. It seems to me that—even though I disagree with the principle of the Bill—those extra properties would not be necessary for those legitimate uses in this instance.
As my hon. Friend the shadow Minister said, the market should be able to make a difference. Clause 2(3) should be struck from the Bill, because it does not seem that there is a legitimate use for cigarette papers that would not be picked up in another way, shape or form if that subsection were removed. I understand from the guidance I received as a new Member on my first day here that I have to three days to table an amendment before discussion, but I would suggest the removal of subsection (3). Perhaps the Government will consider whether the provision should remain fully in the next iteration of the clause later in this process.
I also want to speak to the term “no reason to suspect”, because I am not clear where the burden of proof sits. If someone goes into a newsagent to order cigarette papers, the overwhelming likelihood is that they will use them to smoke cigarettes. I accept that other reasons exist, but is the shopkeeper supposed to ask? The Bill says “no reason to suspect”; I would expect shopkeepers to have every reason to suspect that people who buy cigarette papers smoke cigarettes. It seems a little woolly. What would the Minister expect the shopkeeper to do in those instances? Is he supposed to ask? If the person says, “I am using this for a woodwind instrument,” is that sufficient? If I were a person who wished to get around the law, I could pretty easily work out that that would get me around the clause.
Andrew Gwynne
I shall answer some of the points made, which were valid. To answer the shadow Minister, cigarette papers are within the scope of the existing legislation. They are included because burning them adds to the volume of smoke and because, with their bleaches and dyes, as she rightly set out, the range of toxicants in the smoke contributes to the additional risks to smokers.
On filters, I am sympathetic to the shadow Minister’s premise. Although cigarette filters have historically been marketed to make smoking safer, there is no evidence of that whatsoever. All tobacco products are harmful. However, as with all regulations, it is important that measures are considered fully and that the evidence base is there, with no unintended consequences. I do not want to give the tobacco industry the opportunity to greenwash and to say, “Not only are filters healthier for you, but they are healthier for the environment.” We absolutely do not want that. We have powers in part 5 of the Bill to restrict the flavours in cigarette papers, so the argument set out by the shadow Minister is covered. On single-use plastics, it is for the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs to legislate, and it already has powers that enable it to consult on single-use plastics in cigarette filters.
As we have heard, a number of relevant products—for example, pipe cleaners and cigarette papers—can be used for musical instruments, as well as for crafting, art, model making and a whole range of other uses. We do not want to restrict those uses; we want to make it more difficult for people to access such products for the provision of smoking. As we said when we discussed clause 1, we are not making the smoking of tobacco illegal; we are preventing the next generation from getting hooked. The restrictions therefore strike a proportionate balance. A current smoker will be able to smoke until the until the day they die. Although we will do everything we can to give them the opportunity to give up, they will be able to access the products legally, but the Bill will introduce restrictions on them.
We think we have got the balance right, but we will take away the arguments and consider them, because they are valid arguments about how a musician, or someone who wants to use them for crafting and modelling, will still able to access these products if they want to use them.
Dr Beccy Cooper (Worthing West) (Lab)
I have quick and pragmatic point about the different uses of cigarette papers. I am a mum and a saxophone player myself, and I suggest that other materials can be used in the place of cigarette papers. I appreciate the debate, but I do not think this is about a pragmatic use.
Andrew Gwynne
That is precisely the point I was coming to. We will take the argument away because it is a reasonable argument, and we will perhaps consider returning to this issue on Report.
I know that the shadow Minister has every sympathy with the fact that cigarette papers are dangerous when used for the consumption of tobacco, which is what we want to bear down on. As I have said, there are powers in part 5 to restrict the flavours of cigarette papers, but we want to get the balance right so we will take the argument away and consider it.
Dr Danny Chambers (Winchester) (LD)
I am reticent to extend the discussion about cigarette papers; I was unaware it was possible to discuss something to such an extent. I am not legally trained, so I ask this for my own understanding as someone who is not a learned Member. If the exact same product was renamed and rebranded as model paper or musical instrument paper, would this law still apply to it?
Andrew Gwynne
That is a good question. Of course, if it was to be used for the consumption of tobacco, it would come within the scope of the Bill. We have to be clear that many of these products have dual uses, as we have heard. I am as guilty as anybody of making pipe-cleaner characters for my children and grandchildren—grandchild, rather, because I have only one so far.
We want to make sure that those who want to continue smoking are able to do so, but that obvious restrictions and boundaries are put in place regarding the accessibility of these products, so that no child born after 1 January 2009 will ever legally be sold them.
Dr Caroline Johnson
I thank the Minister for engaging in this discussion, because although it is somewhat technical to discuss cigarette papers, it is important. The hon. Member for Worthing West made the key distinction, which is that it is about the ingredients that are in a product. It would be possible for the Minister to devise legislation that sought to ban cigarette papers, without preventing a market in a similar product that would be ineffective as a cigarette paper but useful for the average modeller.
Andrew Gwynne
Perhaps we will return to that on Report. I have every sympathy with what the shadow Minister says. We do not want to prevent the legitimate use—indeed, a whole variety of uses—of these products, which is why we have the exemption in the Bill. If we are able to do what she suggests under the powers in the Bill, that would be great; if we can do only some of what she asks for in respect of flavours, that would go part of the way, and we will need to look at how we can strengthen that. If the shadow Minister can be a little patient, I think we can come back to this on Report.
Andrew Gwynne
The clauses restate the ban on tobacco vending machines in England, Wales and Northern Ireland and extend it to include vending machines that sell cigarette papers. The prohibition came into force in 2011 in England and in 2012 in Wales and Northern Ireland. Under the amendments made by the Bill it will be an offence for a person with management or control of a premises to have a vending machine available for use from which tobacco products, herbal smoking products or cigarettes may be bought.
The prohibition was originally introduced because tobacco vending machines were largely unsupervised and allowed under-age access to tobacco. In 2010, 8% of 11 to 15-year-olds who regularly smoked said that vending machines were a usual source of cigarettes. The policy has successfully contributed to reducing smoking rates in young people and has been effective at enabling the age-of-sale restrictions to be implemented and enforced properly.
The existing legislation is consolidated in the Bill to replace the regulations that cover an automatic machine from which tobacco products, herbal smoking products or cigarette papers may be bought. With all the restrictions that apply to such products covered in one Act, those who are affected by and who apply the legislation will find it easier to access them. I commend the clauses to the Committee.
Dr Johnson
As the Minister says, clause 3 outlaws the use of vending machines that sell tobacco or tobacco products, as well as herbal smoking products and cigarette papers. I note that there are no amendments to clause 3, presumably because it is somewhat settled and established law.
In the same way as vapes and other nicotine products, which we will come to later, vending machines make it much easier for people under the age of 18—or, under clause 1, those born after 1 January 2009—to buy age-restricted products that they are not legally allowed to purchase. They are self-service machines, so it is difficult to prove age and easy to get around if it is machine led. Historically, such machines have often been unsupervised by staff in a shop, thereby providing easy opportunities for younger people to buy from them.
It was coalition Government legislation—the Protection from Tobacco (Sales from Vending Machines) (England) Regulations 2010—that banned the sale of tobacco products from vending machines from 1 October 2011. That statutory instrument was made under section 3A of the Children and Young Persons (Protection from Tobacco) Act 1991, which was inserted by section 22 of the Health Act 2009. That is a complex chain to follow, so having this clause where everything is in one place is much simpler. The clause also adds herbal smoking and cigarette paper vending machines to the legislation—on a personal level, I welcome that, for the reasons I have given already—and clarifies the penalty, which was more difficult to establish when looking at the previous trail of legislation.
However, the clause does change the terminology. Previously, it was illegal on the basis of sale “from an automatic machine”; the Bill talks about an “automatic machine from which” products “may be bought”. It seems that they are the same thing, but of course we heard repeatedly in evidence how the tobacco industry tries to get round these things.
I found a trail of people discussing online how to get round the vending machine legislation, which raised various questions. If I buy a product from a major retailer online, I can choose to get that delivered to my home, I can collect it from one of its stores, and I can also pick it up from our local Co-op, the local post office, or from a box with a keypad door, at the garage and in other locations. If one were to buy tobacco products, herbal smoking products, or cigarette papers using an online app, and collect them from a dispensing machine—an automatic machine that dispenses cigarettes—in a pub, would that be covered by this legislation, or is that a loophole that could be exploited? I would be interested in the Minister’s comments on that, because we have heard how inventive the industry is. Would it be possible for people to circumnavigate the Bill’s intent by creating a machine that does not sell the product but simply gives to a person the product they have already bought?
Clause 70 applies to Northern Ireland. It will insert into the Health and Personal Social Services (Northern Ireland) Order 1978 the new article 4B, which is essentially the same as clause 3, so the same questions and comments apply. The only difference between the two clauses that I can see is that in Northern Ireland we have a level 5 offence, and in England and Wales we have a level 4 offence.
I wondered briefly why there was no clause for Scotland, but section 9 of the Tobacco and Primary Medical Services (Scotland) Act 2010 makes it illegal to have an automatic machine for the sale of tobacco products, regardless of whether the machine also sells other products, with a level 4 fine, so Members can be reassured that that is covered. I do not think the Minister answered this point in relation to the previous clause: clearly he chooses the fine levels for England and Wales in the Bill; why has he chosen to have the same penalty as Scotland but a lower penalty than that in Northern Ireland?
Jack Rankin
The nub of clause 3 is age verification. The reason the Minister and the Government do not want tobacco vending machines in operation is not that they do not want convenience for the customer, but rather that they want to make sure that people are of a suitable age under the law. Without somebody to check, that is a problem.
In my youth, I used to play snooker in what was the Minister’s constituency. There was a little area of the club, with a little gate, where the gambling machines were, and there was a tobacco vending machine in there. The only thing preventing us from going in there was honesty. Whereas it stopped me as a teenager, I do not suppose that it would have stopped adults in the same way—if you wanted to restrict adults from being a smoker in the future, that would not serve as a deterrent.
My question is about nicotine products, which I was hoping the Minister could come to, perhaps when he winds up. Nicotine products are defined separately from tobacco products in this legislation, so it would still be acceptable for things such as nicotine patches to be sold through vending machines. That does not sound unsensible, because it does not seem to me that people trying to evade this law would be attracted to nicotine products in the same way they might be to other tobacco cessation devices. Perhaps the Minister can comment on how he proposes to treat them when he winds up.
Andrew Gwynne
Let me first say to the shadow Minister that we are aware of the new type of machines she mentioned, and we are concerned by their presence. The Department is looking to ensure that there are no loopholes in this legislation and that these machines, which may seek to bypass the age of sale restrictions, are not able to. Secondly, she has already answered the point about Scotland: the reason these measures do not appertain to Scotland is that Scotland already has legislation covering them.
To other Members, I say that we are overcomplicating this. As I said in opening, the clauses merely restate the existing ban on tobacco vending machines in England, Wales and Northern Ireland. We are consolidating the legislation to make it easier to understand the law but also to enforce it from one place—and that is it. This is the consolidation of existing powers that are working now.
The hon. Member for Windsor is absolutely right when he says that we want to ensure that age of sale is absolutely enabled to be enforced. As he said, when he was playing snooker in my old constituency, he would have been able to purchase tobacco products from a vending machine, and it was basically on the basis of trust that people were able to do that. That is no longer acceptable. We are bringing in the age restrictions, and we therefore need to make sure that they are adhered to.
I do not wish to stray on to nicotine products, because those are subject to a debate further on in the Bill. However, the hon. Gentleman is right to draw a distinction in the way he has. That is why the whole Bill treats nicotine products separately to, and very differently from, tobacco products, for reasons we will get to in due course.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 3 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 4
Sale of unpackaged cigarettes
Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
Andrew Gwynne
These clauses restate that it is an offence for tobacco retailers to sell cigarettes that are not in the original packaging they were supplied in. Selling unpackaged cigarettes is currently an offence in England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, and these clauses re-enact that offence. The prohibition was originally introduced to reduce smoking among children, because there was evidence that children were being sold single cigarettes. The clauses ensure that the sale of loose cigarettes continues to be prohibited and that cigarettes are sold in the appropriate packaging. I therefore commend the clauses to the Committee.
Dr Johnson
I thank my hon. Friend for her contribution, and she is right to talk about the quantity. If the principle behind this clause is to ensure that the quantity of sale is such that it restricts younger people from purchasing these products with their pocket money, what consideration has the Minister given to the quantities of herbal cigarettes, or herbal smoking products, and cigarette papers, so that they would be purchased in quantities not easily accessible to young people?
On the comments made by my hon. Friend the Member for Windsor about the fine levels, the fines are level 3, which in this case is consistent across the four nations of the United Kingdom. Clause 51 amends the Tobacco and Primary Medical Services (Scotland) Act 2010 to add proposed new section 4E, which essentially has the same effect—it is different wording, but it has the same essential effect of banning the sale of loose cigarettes. Clause 71 adds proposed new section 4C, which is essentially the same as clause 4, to the Health and Personal Social Services (Northern Ireland) Order 1978 to have the same effect. Again, it has the same fine, so there is some consistency across the four nations of the country, but I would be grateful for the Minister’s comments on the points I have raised.
Andrew Gwynne
I thank the hon. Lady for raising these matters. Again, it is a case of perhaps overcomplicating what the clause does. As with clause 3, clause 4 merely restates that it is an offence for tobacco retailers to sell cigarettes that are not in the original packaging they were supplied in. We are not talking about proxy purchasing, or somebody breaking up a packet of cigarettes and selling them as an individual; we are talking here about retailers. This practice used to be quite common, but thankfully, because of the measures that are already in place, it is already an offence and we are reaffirming that offence in the Bill.
Dr Johnson
The Minister says that it has been illegal for some time and that is an offence to sell loose cigarettes, and of course it has been. However, we heard in evidence from the Royal College of Physicians last week that the sale of loose cigarettes to youngsters was still a problem—it is an entry way into cigarettes. Does the Minister have any comment on whether reaffirming the offence with this legislation will actually help to enforce it to any greater degree?
Andrew Gwynne
Yes, I believe it will. Of course, this measure is not being taken in isolation, and it is not just a stand-alone measure. This is part of a whole package of tobacco control measures that form this part of the Bill. Taken together, these things will ensure that we drive down even further smoking prevalence in young people. However, we do not want to undo the legislation as it stands; we need it to be part and parcel of the whole raft of measures we are bringing forward.
Sarah Bool
I am concerned about whether we are accidentally and inadvertently creating a loophole here. If we are not going to ban someone from breaking down a cigarette packet and selling it, that is the way they will go about doing it. We should be going for consistency and tightness on this. I appreciate that that is the law as it stands, which is why we have applied it, but have we had the foresight to ensure that we do not create a loophole? It seems quite possible that we have.
Andrew Gwynne
If the hon. Lady is not talking about retailers breaking up packets, which is illegal, she is talking, effectively, about proxy purchasing—an adult buying tobacco products for children, splitting up the packet and selling those products on. It is already an offence for those children to get cigarettes—whether a full packet or part of a packet—even if they are not from retailers. It is proxy purchasing, and we have already covered that.
The shadow Minister raised the issue of messaging on individual cigarettes. I am not sure whether she was under the misapprehension that it is not covered in the Bill. The Bill restates the existing power to make regulations on the appearance of tobacco products, including cigarette sticks. Not only that, but it goes further by extending the power to other products, including cigarette papers. Although we do not plan to introduce dissuasive cigarettes at this time, as we believe we already have strong health warnings in the existing measures, we will continue to monitor the situation. We do leave an open door to it, and the powers are there. We will, however, mandate pack inserts into cigarette packs. We believe that that is proportionate at this time, while not closing the door to going further.
Lastly, the shadow Minister noted that, in some cases, fines are consistent across the United Kingdom, but that, in others, there are differences. I am afraid that that is the result of the devolution settlement. We have built into the Bill the ability for all four nations to walk together on making our country smoke-free, but the levels at which fines are levied are entirely a matter for the devolved Administrations. That is why there is sometimes an inconsistency in fine levels.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 4 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 5
Age of sale notice at point of sale: England
Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
Andrew Gwynne
Clauses 5, 6 and 72 replace the requirement for age of sale notices in England, Wales and Northern Ireland to reflect the new age of sale for tobacco products. Clause 55 provides Scottish Ministers with the power to set requirements about warning statements, which are notices that reflect the new age of sale requirements there. Age of sale notices are required under current legislation and must state in a prominent position:
“It is illegal to sell tobacco products to anyone under the age of 18.”
The Bill will replace that requirement with a requirement for notices to reflect the new age of sale, stating:
“It is illegal to sell tobacco products to anyone born on or after 1 January 2009.”
The notices must comply with any requirements set out in regulations on the size or appearance of those notices. This updated wording on age of sale notices will support tobacco retailers in implementing the new age of sale restrictions by helping to clarify and underline them for customers and staff. I therefore commend these clauses to the Committee.
Dr Johnson
Clauses 5, 6, 55 and 72 make provision for age of sale notices. Clause 5(1) makes it clear on which premises the notices must be displayed. In some respects, that is obvious, but the fact that the Bill makes clear that the notices must be on the same premises where the tobacco is being sold is perhaps a sign that the Minister has the measure of the tobacco industry: if that was not clearly stipulated, there would be temptation to display the notices in head office or somewhere else where no one could see them. The fact that it is thought necessary to state what is blindingly obvious—that the notice must be displayed in the right place—is somewhat sad.
Subsection (3) deals with positioning. The statement that the notice must be prominent and readily visible at each point of sale is relevant to shops that have more than one till at the counter. One sometimes goes to the counter of a large supermarket, or similar, and sees a whole row of tills. It is therefore important that the signs are visible from all the tills, not just the one closest to the tobacco.
What the notice must say is provided for in subsection (2):
“It is illegal to sell tobacco products to anyone born on or after 1 January 2009”.
That is clear, simple and informative, which is good. However, it does not mention cigarette papers or herbal smoking products. Why has the Minister chosen not to include the other items included in the rolling age of sale and the Government’s smoke-free generation on the notice for clarity? That is important because we heard in evidence, and have all read in the news, of examples where people who work in our retail sector have been treated in an abusive—sometimes violent—fashion or people have been very rude to them.
If the purpose of the notice is to be clear on what the law is, providing clarity that it also includes herbal smoking products and cigarette papers would enable the public to be aware of the law and the retailer to point to the sign and say, “I can’t do this—look.” The message as currently drafted does not do that, and that could cause shopkeepers or shop assistants more difficulty. I notice that under subsection (4), any aspect of the notices, including the appearance and wording, can be amended, so that could be done at a later date if the Minister feels that the shopkeepers’ evidence is that herbal smoking products and cigarette papers are proving a challenge. Why has he chosen not to do that at the outset?
Subsection (7) talks about a defence of having taken reasonable steps. I have two questions on that. First, is “It fell down and I hadn’t noticed, your honour” an adequate defence? How does the Minister envisage the reasonable steps defence? What are the reasonable steps? If the Government choose under subsection (4) to change the appearance or wording—perhaps if they discover it is inadequate in some way—what steps will need to be taken to ensure that all retailers are aware of those changes, and within what timeframe will retailers be expected to react to those changes?
The impact assessment says that the cost of putting up a new sign is not prohibitively expensive for an individual business—it is about £4 per retailer—but it means that there is an overall cost to small and micro-retailers of around £124,000 in England, and £143,000 in the UK. That is a cost to business overall, even if a small one to individual businesses. The impact assessment also notes the cost of staff training and awareness. There are an estimated 42,582 convenience stores in England, each with a store manager who would have to disseminate that information to the estimated 299,957 members of staff. Of those stores, 71% would be considered small or microbusinesses.
The cost of amending those things means that the Opposition invite the Minister to get the notice right the first time so costs are not incurred twice. There is an estimated cost of around £2 million in total on training. Although the cost to any one small or microbusiness is likely to be small—around £70 on average—that cost combined with £4 for a sign, at a time when small businesses are being squeezed by other budgetary measures the Government have brought in, is another potential straw to break the camel’s back.
The fine is at a level 3, and the person who carries on a business involving the sale of tobacco products by retail is the person who is liable. But what does it mean to be
“a person who carries on a business involving the sale of tobacco products by retail”.
Is it the director of the business? Is it the store manager who is on duty that day? Is it the overall store manager, or is it the licence holder?
Tuesday 14th January 2025
(1 year, 6 months ago)
Public Bill CommitteesTobacco and Vapes Act 2026 Read Hansard Text Amendment Paper: Public Bill Committee Amendments as at 14 January 2025 - (14 Jan 2025)
The Committee divided: - Ayes: 3 / Noes: 12 - Question accordingly negatived.
This text is a record of ministerial contributions to a debate held as part of the Tobacco and Vapes Act 2026 passage through Parliament.
In 1993, the House of Lords Pepper vs. Hart decision provided that statements made by Government Ministers may be taken as illustrative of legislative intent as to the interpretation of law.
This extract highlights statements made by Government Ministers along with contextual remarks by other members. The full debate can be read here
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
Sarah Bool (South Northamptonshire) (Con)
I want to follow up on the points made on clause 5(3) and clause 6(3) in particular. Both specify that
“The notice must be displayed in a prominent position”.
I agree with many of the points my hon. Friend the Member for Windsor made about what that means in practice. In the information pack that we have been given, there is a quote from the Scottish Grocers’ Federation, which I want to read for the record. It explicitly states:
“In most convenience stores, space is at a premium and the suggested wording set out in UK Government proposals will require a significant surface area in order to be legible and accessible to all customers. The complexity of a moving ban will require very clear public messaging. Appropriate and mandatory signage is essential for good practice and the sale of age restricted items, SGF is concerned that multiple messages throughout the store relating to various product ranges and items could potentially create confusion and lead to challenging interactions between customers and staff.”
To protect our retailers, we must ensure that we enforce these regulations correctly. When making the regulations, the Secretary of State should take into account the voice of the retailers.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Care (Andrew Gwynne)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Mark. In responding to points that have been made, I want first to reiterate that these two clauses do not relate to enforcement; they concern the nature of the signage that will be required to be displayed. We can come to those other matters later in the Bill’s proceedings. I remind Opposition Members of what has been said in previous debates: we will use the very long lead-in time to engage fully with the retail sector to ensure that we get the delivery in shops right and to ensure that the Bill’s provisions can be implemented without any hiccups.
I also reiterate that we abhor any violence and abuse towards retail staff—or anybody else—and it is the intention of this Labour Government to introduce a new offence in this respect. Given the comments that have rightly been made in the course of this and earlier debates, I hope that it will command full support from all parts of the House.
The hon. Member for Windsor asked what is meant by “negative resolution procedure”. It is the procedure for the statutory instrument that will be have to be made to introduce these regulations. The fact that it is “negative” means purely that it will not require a parliamentary debate. It will be done through the usual secondary legislation processes.
There were questions about the nature of the clauses relating to different parts of the United Kingdom, and why we are approaching this with slightly different methods. I must say politely—particularly to the shadow Minister—that we have to respect the devolution settlement. These matters are entirely within the legislative competence of the devolved Administrations. Some things remain reserved for the UK Government, but for a lot of the measures in the Bill, the legislative competence rests with the devolved Administrations and their Parliaments.
Dr Johnson
I have at no point suggested that I do not respect the devolution that is in place. I made two remarks that reference devolution. One was about the different penalties that apply for the same offence in different parts of the United Kingdom. While I recognise that Ministers in other parts of the country have the competence to change the penalties to make them different from those that apply in England, it is clearly the Minister here who decides what the draft legislation should say with regards to the penalty in England. My questions focused on why he has chosen to make it different in England from other parts of the United Kingdom. Clearly, if the Northern Irish had chosen a higher penalty, it is up to him if he wishes to join them, or to have a lower penalty.
The other issue I have raised regarding devolution was in relation to clause 5. The Bill as drafted says that tobacco cannot be sold to people born on or after 1 January 2009, and much effort has gone into ensuring that that is replicated in Scottish legislation all the way through, even though the Scottish Parliament could do that itself if it wanted to. It makes sense to do it in one go here because that is more efficient in terms of both time and financial expenditure for civil servants across the country. So my question was why the Minister has chosen not to include in the Bill the change to the notice in clause 5, saying that tobacco cannot be sold to people under 18. Why not change that now?
Dr Johnson
I am merely suggesting that changing the notice in clause 5 to
“born on or after 1 January 2009”
instead of “under 18” now would be more efficient, and help our Scottish colleagues, rather than implying they are not capable of doing so.
Andrew Gwynne
Sir Mark, the hon. Lady protests too much here, because while it is true that she was questioning why, for example, the English fines could not be the rate of the Northern Irish fines, she was also pretty much calling for us to legislate for Scotland and Wales to bring consistency across the whole United Kingdom. Likewise with clause 5, she asks why we in this place are not legislating for Scotland in respect of the notices that will be displayed in Scotland. It is not our job to legislate where the Scottish Government do not want us to do so.
Andrew Gwynne
No, I will answer the hon. Lady. My officials and I have been in contact throughout the production of this Bill with officials and Ministers in the devolved Administrations. I have had umpteen meetings personally with my counterparts in Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland, and there is an open offer. They are genuinely excited, Sir Mark, that we are able—as far as possible—to legislate with their consent to make smoke-free UK a reality, and we have sought to design this Bill in co-production with the devolved Administrations. None the less, there are some things that the devolved Administrations do not wish this Parliament to legislate on. For example, in respect of clause 5, on the notices, the Scottish Government have made it very clear that this is something they wish to do in their own way, in their own time, notwithstanding the fact that they have given us assurances that the measures will be in place to give enough time for retailers north of the border in Scotland to implement them. It is not for me to overrule the will of Scottish Ministers, who have the legislative competence to do this, if they do not wish this Parliament to do it on their behalf.
I hope that that answers future similar questions about the differences in different parts of the United Kingdom. We are legislating with the permission and consent of the three devolved Administration Governments, and we are not going to overstep. I have already said to my ministerial colleagues in other parts of the United Kingdom that if, during the course of the Bill through this House and the other place, they think, “That is not quite right and we need it to be amended,” or, “You know, it does make sense for Westminster to do it all in one go and do it for us,” we will respect that.
I have given Ministers my promise that if, as an afterthought, they want us to do some of this for them on their behalf during the Bill’s progress through its stages in both Houses, we will facilitate that. However, I am not going to overstep the powers given to me by the Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish Ministers to legislate on their behalf and to ensure that we have a United Kingdom-wide Bill that meets the separate and different needs, ambitions and expectations of our devolved settlement.
Dr Johnson
I am grateful to the Minister for making clear that the reason that the text contained within the age of sale notice is not being amended at this stage is because Scottish Ministers have told him they would prefer to amend it themselves at a later date.
Andrew Gwynne
I am grateful for that, and if any offence was caused by my earlier comments, I apologise to the hon. Lady. We need to set out clearly that we are doing something quite ingenious, and that is only because of the goodwill and the desire of Ministers from different political backgrounds in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland to get this legislation through the United Kingdom Parliament with the ability for them to then differ on consultations and other matters once the legislation is on the statute book. That would have been unheard of in years gone by, when relationships were not necessarily as good as they currently are between the devolved Administrations and the Westminster Government.
The same argument applies to clause 6. The sign will be a matter for Welsh Ministers. Although the framework of the sign is set down in the Bill for Wales, because that was how they wished us to approach it, any changes would be a matter for Welsh Ministers. The hon. Lady asked the hypothetical question whether, if we changed the notices again, there would be adequate consultation or time for retailers. We are not planning on making life difficult for retailers. We think that the wording here is the right wording. I do not take it to be legalistic and technical in the way that the hon. Member for Windsor seems to think it is. It is the same wording that applies now, with the exception that rather than talking about people “under the age of 18”, it will say
“anyone born on or before 1 January 2009”.
I think that is pretty clear.
The wording on the signage was tested during the public consultation in January, and more than 70% of respondents supported it. Many respondents noted that we need to mirror the existing wording to ensure accessibility. Other products are more niche and were not deemed to be necessary on the sign, but I think most people understand what a tobacco product is, and a cigar is certainly a tobacco product. I commend the clauses to the Committee.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 5 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 6 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 7
Ban on manufacture of snus etc
Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
The Chair
With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
Clause 8 stand part.
Amendment 60, in clause 9, page 5, line 10, at end insert
“, save if it is a first offence.”
See explanatory statement to Amendment 62.
Amendment 61, in clause 9, page 5, line 12, at end insert
“, save if it is a first offence.”
See explanatory statement to Amendment 62.
Amendment 62, in clause 9, page 5, line 12, at end insert—
“(3A) A person who has admitted guilt of a first offence under this section is liable to a fine not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale or a caution.”
This amendment, together with Amendments 60 and 61, prevents penalties for a first offence under section 9 being a fine beyond level 3 and provides for a discretionary caution.
Clause 9 stand part.
Clauses 56 and 57 stand part.
Amendment 70, in clause 58, page 29, line 19, at end insert
“, save if it is a first offence.”
See explanatory statement to Amendment 72.
Amendment 71, in clause 58, page 29, line 21, at end insert
“, save if it is a first offence.”
See explanatory statement to Amendment 72.
Amendment 72, in clause 58, page 29, line 21, at end insert—
“(3A) A person who has admitted guilt of a first offence under subsection (1) is liable to a fine not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale or a recorded police warning.”
This amendment, together with Amendments 70 and 71, prevents penalties for a first offence under Section 58 (pertaining to restrictions on the possession of snus with an intent to supply in Scotland) being beyond level 3 and provides for a discretionary recorded police warning.
Clause 58 stand part.
Clauses 73 and 74 stand part.
Amendment 77, in clause 75, page 39, line 19, at end insert
“, save if it is a first offence.”
See explanatory statement to Amendment 79.
Amendment 78, in clause 75, page 39, line 21, at end insert
“, save if it is a first offence.”
See explanatory statement to Amendment 79.
Amendment 79, in clause 75, page 39, line 21, at end insert—
“(3A) A person who has admitted guilt of a first offence under this Article is liable to a to a fine not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale or conditional caution.”
This amendment, together with Amendments 77 and 78, prevents penalties for a first offence under Section 75 (pertaining to restrictions on the possession with an intent to supply of snus in Northern Ireland) being beyond level 3 and provides for a conditional caution.
Clause 75 stand part.
Andrew Gwynne
I am grateful for the opportunity to open this debate. Amendments 60 to 62, 70 to 72 and 77 to 79 would create a more lenient penalty regime for the offence of possessing the relevant oral tobacco product, for example snus, with intent to supply it to another person in the course of business in England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, by creating an exception to the maximum penalty that a person can face for committing that offence if it is their first offence.
The amendments would establish that someone who admits to committing an offence for the first time would be liable on summary conviction or indictment to a fine not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale, which is £1,000, or provide instead for a discretionary caution in England and Wales, a recorded police warning in Scotland or a conditional caution in Northern Ireland. That is lower than the current maximum penalties, which are, on summary conviction, imprisonment for up to six months in England, Wales and Northern Ireland and 12 months in Scotland, a fine, or both; or, on conviction on indictment, imprisonment for up to two years, a fine, or both.
The amendments would remove the distinction between summary conviction and conviction on indictment for first-time offenders, meaning that the severity of the offence committed would not be taken into account in those cases as it would under current provisions. In creating a first-time offence, the amendments would have a similar effect to amendments that we have already discussed, so, if the Committee is content, I will not repeat myself, as my rationale for asking the shadow Minister to withdraw her amendment remains the same.
Dr Johnson
This group of clauses and amendments all apply to snus, which we are trying to ban, so the first question is: what is snus? Snus is a tobacco product predominantly used in Sweden and, to an extent, in the USA. When the Health and Social Care Committee, which I was a member of in the last Parliament, visited Sweden at around the time the previous Tobacco and Vapes Bill was introduced, we saw shops with massive displays of different types, brands and flavours of snus, which came in small round pots similar to those that we see nicotine pouches in; they were mostly kept in the refrigerator.
Snus is produced using tobacco leaves, salt and alkalis such as sodium bicarbonate or sodium carbonate. The alkali is there to help the nicotine to be absorbed more easily into the mouth and therefore into the bloodstream of the person using the product. Producers also potentially add a flavouring. As we have seen in cigarette papers, flavourings are used to improve the palatability of tobacco products. The mixture of tobacco leaf, salt, alkalis and flavouring is ground up, steam-pasteurised to inhibit the growth of bacteria, and then supplied loose or in small pouches.
The loose form is a moist, powdery product, which I understand is rolled between one’s fingers to create a sort of cylinder shape known as a pinch. It is placed under the upper lip, where it is held for about 30 minutes while the nicotine is absorbed into the bloodstream. Its moist nature helps to facilitate the absorption of nicotine and makes the nicotine hit faster; it is absorbed more quickly than it would otherwise be.
The second way that snus can be supplied is in a small pouch resembling a very little teabag, which comes in two formats: original and white. The original version is a sachet of material that is kept moist and is brown in colour. Again, the moistness allows a quick release, but the tobacco product does not need rolling and pinching; it just needs putting into one’s mouth, and it stays in its little pouch. The white version is not in all cases white, but the genre is known as white snus. It has a milder taste and a slower release because the powder in the pouch is dry. The dryness means that one needs to get it moist in the mouth before it will dissolve across the membrane and give the nicotine hit, which means that the dry snus is a slower-release product than the original. The American snus is a lower moisture product, again provided in a variety of flavours to suit the customer.
Why did I and others not know what snus was? I am sure you are familiar with it, Sir Mark. This specific form of tobacco product has been banned in the UK for some time. It was banned by the Tobacco for Oral Use (Safety) Regulations 1992—I was still at school—and then EU tobacco products directive 2014/40 created a European-wide ban, which was incorporated into UK law by the Tobacco and Related Products Regulations 2016. The Committee might be interested to know that Sweden has a derogation specifically for snus under that EU regulation, so snus is still sold there, as I described.
Advocates of snus believe it is less harmful and causes less respiratory disease and less cancer than does an inhaled form of tobacco. They try to market it as an alternative to smoking that is less harmful. However, the evidence shows a risk of cancer, particularly of the cheek and gums. Perhaps that is not surprising, given where it is placed to be used. Oral squamous cell carcinoma, a form of cancer of the mouth, often occurs in the site at which snus is commonly placed. It has also been shown that snus causes increased blood pressure, particularly in females, and despite not being inhaled it can contribute to an increased rate of asthma.
Aside from all that, snus contains nicotine, which we know is addictive. Regardless of the form in which it is taken, it creates the addiction and cravings that rob people of the choice not to use the product, which the Minister spoke about so powerfully last week. It is important that we consider this carefully, because otherwise people will become addicted to snus as another form of nicotine.
Dr Johnson
My understanding—I am sure the Minister will leap to his feet to correct me if I am wrong—is that the Bill does not apply to nicotine pouches per se, because nicotine pouches do not contain tobacco. As I understand it, the brands we see in our local supermarket in similar round pots contain nicotine, and they are put in the mouth and absorbed in a similar way, but they are not tobacco products. As I read the Bill, clause 7 will not apply to them, and obviously they are not currently illegal, because they are widely sold.
Andrew Gwynne
I can easily clarify that point. The clause applies to relevant oral tobacco products, which are defined as tobacco products intended for oral use, not intended to be inhaled or chewed, and that consist wholly or partially of tobacco. It does not apply to tobacco-free nicotine pouches, which are sometimes informally referred to as snus; the Bill classes nicotine pouches as nicotine products.
Dr Johnson
I thank the Minister for clarifying that so comprehensively.
Clause 8 deals with the sale of snus. Clause 7 having made it an offence to manufacture snus, clause 8 bans the sale of snus, which it defines, in the same way as described by the Minister, as a “relevant oral tobacco product”. In wording that is slightly different from that in other clauses, clause 8 also describes the offence as not only to sell, but to
“offer or expose…for sale”.
I had to look up what that meant. To help the Committee, apparently, to offer or expose something for sale means to expose it to attract an offer of purchase from the public. Something is put in the shop window—in the same way as the bongs the Minister described in a shop window the other day—to be visible to a customer and the customer may then choose to make an offer for the purchase of the product, and the product is thereby exposed for sale. In essence, this provision will make putting these products in a shop window an offence.
I am interested to understand why the wording in clause 8 is different from that for all the other tobacco and nicotine products in the Bill, where that wording is not used. If the Minister could explain that, I will be grateful. Again, the defence offered by clause 8 is “all reasonable steps”, but I am not sure what such steps would be, so I will be grateful for clarification on that, too, please.
The penalties for disobeying clause 8 are quite severe. The penalty on summary conviction is
“imprisonment for a term not exceeding the general limit”
in a magistrates court, which is six months, potentially rising to 12 months based on what the Lord Chancellor has said over the past few months, or a fine—of how much, the Bill does not state, so perhaps the Minister could help with that—or both. On conviction on indictment, the penalty is
“imprisonment for a term not exceeding 2 years, or a fine, or both.”
That means that we have a contradiction within the Bill. For virtually any other tobacco or nicotine products that may not be sold, but are sold by an offender, the offender is liable for a fine at level 3, 4 or 5, but clause 8—the sale of snus, as distinct from all other tobacco products—creates an offence that carries a penalty of significant imprisonment. I am not saying that that should not be the case, but I am interested to understand the rationale for the difference, because, notwithstanding any devolution differences, the decision on what to do in England and Wales is clearly for this Government and this Minister.
Clause 9 concerns possession with intent to supply in the course of business of a “relevant oral tobacco product”, as has been defined in clauses 7 and 8. I am interested in what is meant by “the course of business”. If one looks at section 4 of the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971, where possession with intent to supply is most readily thought of, it is the intent to supply it to another person. However, does “the course of business” imply that money must change hands? If one had the intent to supply to another without being paid, would that not be in “the course of business” and therefore be legal? Also, does the word “business” itself imply a properly regulated business? It could not be a properly regulated business in so far as it would be an illegal sale. Does the Minister therefore make a distinction between the product being sold from a business premises as opposed to being bought down the pub from an acquaintance?
Amendments 60, 61 and 62 to clause 9 basically look once again at the principle of proportionality. If, for example, we were to prosecute someone for the sale of cigarettes to a 19-year-old born on 1 January 2009, and it was that person’s first offence, we would give them a fine—so why would we wish to consider imprisoning somebody at the first offence for selling snus? The crime would appear to be somewhat similar but the penalty is very different. I do not intend to push the amendments to a vote, although other hon. Members may wish to, but they are designed to provoke debate on the proportionality of different offences, and the inconsistency between the penalties for different offences that may appear to be very similar. Amendments 60 and 61 insert the phrase
“save if it is a first offence”
and amendment 62 says:
“A person who has admitted guilt of a first offence…is liable to a fine not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale or a caution.”
I will be interested in the Minister’s comments.
Andrew Gwynne
I am grateful to the shadow Minister for her comments. Although I appreciate her intention to establish greater leniency for first-time offenders, these amendments are not appropriate. Tobacco and vape offences must be taken seriously. We do not want to weaken the penalty regime for these offences, including offences relating to snus, by creating exceptions for first-time offenders or anyone who has committed these offences. We do not want to remove the ability of the court to issue a higher-level penalty, where that is viewed as proportionate for a particular case, for anyone convicted of these offences.
I turn to the shadow Minister’s comments on clauses 7 to 9, 56 to 58 and 73 to 75. Those clauses make it an offence to manufacture, sell or offer for sale, or possess with the intent to supply, a relevant oral tobacco product, such as snus, in England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. A relevant oral tobacco product is something intended for oral use—the clue is in the name: it is not intended to be inhaled or chewed and it consists wholly or partly of tobacco in powder or particulate form. That includes snus.
As the shadow Minister rightly pointed out, snus has been banned in the UK and the EU since 1992. Snus was banned as it was a novel tobacco product that is harmful to health. Snus contains harmful compounds that have been demonstrated to cause cancer, including cancers of the mouth. The manufacture of snus with a view to the product being supplied for consumption in the United Kingdom or through the travel retail sector is currently banned, as she rightly pointed out, under the Tobacco and Related Products Regulations 2016. These clauses re-enact that ban on manufacture but, unlike the 2016 regulations, do not limit it to supplying the UK or travel retail sector. In effect, that extends the ban to include manufacturing snus for export. That simplifies enforcement and reduces the possibility of such harmful products being available within the United Kingdom.
Andrew Gwynne
I will have to get back to the hon. Lady on that point. We will write to Committee members to update them, because I do not have that information to hand or in my mind.
As I was saying, the supply of snus for consumption in any part of the United Kingdom or through the travel retail sector is also already banned under the Tobacco and Related Products Regulations 2016, and these clauses recast the existing ban as a general ban on sale. The ban on possession of snus for intent to supply support the ban on sale, while preserving the current position under the Tobacco and Related Products Regulations 2016, which allows possession of snus for personal use.
Under these clauses, it will not be an offence to possess snus for personal use or for personal gifting to friends and family; this is not about criminalising individuals who possess snus for personal use. These clauses maintain and simplify the ban, in place since 1992, on the sale of a harmful tobacco product. The clauses also make the prohibition on snus more comprehensive and make the legislation clearer and more accessible. We have no intention of allowing a banned and harmful product into the United Kingdom market. I commend the clauses to the Committee.
The hon. Lady asks about “all reasonable steps”. As we have already discussed, it will be for the discretion of trading standards as to whether all reasonable steps have been taken. As we know, they take a proportionate approach to these matters, and we know that their current procedures work. There is no expectation that they will not work with the legislation before us.
What would prevent a retailer from just giving some of these products to a customer, rather than selling them, to get round the law? Well, there is “brand promotion”, which includes free giveaways anyway. That covers all tobacco products—so it covers that situation.
Dr Johnson
I thank the Minister for going through the questions thoroughly. I did not want to risk his getting to the end of his speech without answering the question of why snus is treated differently from other forms of tobacco. Is it merely a historical artefact?
Andrew Gwynne
The hon. Lady need not worry so much, because I have notes to clarify her points. Many people ask why we are banning snus but only gradually raising the age of sale for cigarettes, given that snus is less harmful than cigarettes. Consumption of any tobacco product is harmful. We heard that—[Interruption.]. We heard that very loudly and clearly from somebody upstairs, but also from the four chief medical officers. They made it very clear that there is no safe level of tobacco consumption and that tobacco is uniquely harmful as a product in whatever form it is consumed.
It is this Government’s policy to support people to quit all forms of tobacco. Snus has been banned in the UK and across the EU since 1992. It was banned because it was a harmful novel tobacco product at the time, and it still is. It was agreed to prevent this new harmful product from ever coming on to the market. Why on earth would we now decide to give the tobacco industry a get out of jail free card and allow a product that has never ever been allowed on the market in the United Kingdom to enter the marketplace, irrespective of the age of sale?
Dr Johnson
To be clear, I am not suggesting that it should be on the market, as the Minister well knows, because I support both helping people using tobacco to quit and preventing people from starting to use tobacco. I merely want to understand why there is a difference in treatment. On the basis of what the Minister has said, why not make the penalties for cigarette sales the same as the robust penalties that already exist for snus sales? It is his choice.
Andrew Gwynne
The hon. Lady teases me, Sir Mark, and I get her desire for scrutiny of the issue of fines and of the measures we will take to enforce these laws in England, where they stand at different rates to other parts of the United Kingdom. There are different rates for different products as well. If somebody wants consistency across the four nations and consistency of approach across all products, I get that—that is laudable—but we believe that the measures in the Bill are proportionate and workable. If they turn out not to be—if they turn out to be an incentive rather than a disincentive—Ministers can come back and can look at these things again.
On territorial extent, the earlier clauses refer to England and Wales and the later clauses to Scotland and Northern Ireland. As the shadow Minister pointed out to the hon. Member for Windsor, a full breakdown of the territorial extent of clauses can be found in the annexe of the explanatory notes to the Bill, which hopefully will then be able to clarify in his mind which bits are UK legislation, which bits are devolved legislation and which bits have territorial extent across England, England and Wales, Great Britain or the United Kingdom.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 7 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clauses 8 and 9 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 10
Sale of vaping or nicotine products to under 18s
Jack Rankin
I disagree with the Government on some of the clauses dealing with vaping, but I will come to those later, when it is more appropriate. I agree with what the Government are trying to do in clauses 10, 11 and 12 to toughen things up for under-18s. To that end, I encourage them to support new clause 10, tabled by the shadow Minister, which tries to make purchasing more difficult for under-18s online. We talked earlier about the principle of vending machines, which is addressed in clause 12 and by trying to ensure age verification when there is no one else present. It seems to me that new clause 10 is entirely in line with that, so I hope the Minister might consider supporting it.
Andrew Gwynne
It is good to see you back in the Chair, Sir Roger. Before addressing these amendments, the respective clauses and the proposed new clause, I want to make it clear that I will be using the generic term “vapes or vaping products” throughout to refer to vapes, e-cigarettes or nicotine vapour products. Likewise, I will use the term “nicotine products” to refer to consumer nicotine products, such as nicotine pouches. I am not referring to licensed nicotine-based medicines, which will not be further restricted by the Bill.
Under clause 10 it will continue to be an offence to sell a nicotine vape to a person who is under the age of 18 in England and Wales, and anyone who is found guilty of the offence will be liable to pay a fine of up to £2,500 if convicted. It is a defence if the person can prove they were shown what appeared to be an identity document belonging to the purchaser that showed they were over 18, or that they otherwise took all reasonable steps to avoid committing an offence. The clause also extends this age of sale restriction to consumer nicotine products and non-nicotine vapes, as we know that children are accessing those products. There are currently no age of sale restrictions on those products, and non-nicotine vapes can easily have nicotine solutions manually added to them.
Clause 59 refers to Scotland and extends existing offences in Scotland for selling vaping products to under-18s, proxy purchases on behalf of under-18s, and failure to operate an age verification policy related to vaping products, so nicotine products are also covered in those offences. By amending that legislation, we will align the approach across the United Kingdom, which is the wish of the devolved Administrations. The clause amends Scottish legislation by replacing the term “nicotine vapour products” with the term “vaping products”, thus aligning the definitions across the UK.
Another of the changes to Scottish legislation in this clause makes it an offence for any person managing or controlling a premises to have a prohibited vending machine available for use. This effectively maintains the existing prohibition in Scotland on vending machines selling vaping and tobacco products; indeed, it extends it to include machines from which nicotine products, herbal smoking products and cigarette papers can be purchased. Again, this aligns the approach across the UK.
Clause 76 applies similar measures in Northern Ireland to those in England and Wales, meaning that it will be an offence to sell a vaping or nicotine product to a person in Northern Ireland under the age of 18, thereby expanding current Northern Ireland legislation to cover all vaping products and nicotine products. Anyone convicted of the offence will be liable to a pay a fine of up to £5,000. All these measures for England, Scotland and Northern Ireland will come into force six months after the Bill receives Royal Assent, to give retailers time to introduce them.
These clauses will play an important role in ensuring that we can tackle youth vaping successfully. They provide businesses with certainty as to who they may legally sell products to, and they reinforce our health advice that children should never vape.
However, the amendments tabled by the shadow Minister would undermine that approach by creating a more lenient penalty regime for the offence of selling vaping or nicotine products to someone under age. They would establish that someone who admits to committing an offence for the first time would either be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale—that is, a fine of £1,000—or be given a caution instead. Level 3 is one level lower than the level 4 fine of £2,500 that someone who commits this offence is liable to under the current legislation.
Dr Johnson
The Minister knows me well enough to understand that I would never seek more lenient penalties for those selling vapes to children; there is no excuse for selling vapes to children. However, I am concerned that there may be sales in the online marketplace that are not adequately covered by the regulations as they are currently drafted. The principle of new clause 10 was to ensure that such offences are properly covered, so I would be grateful for his reassurance in that regard.
Andrew Gwynne
I will come to that; I am just spelling out why I am concerned about the consequences of the shadow Minister’s proposals in the amendment, because they would lead to more lenient penalties for those committing an offence for the first time than they are liable to under the current legislation. Again, like the amendments that we have already discussed, the effect would be to create a first-time offence, and if the Committee is content, I will not repeat myself, as the rationale for my asking the shadow Minister to withdraw the amendment remains the same.
The shadow Minister’s new clause 10 would introduce an offence in England and Wales for businesses selling vaping products online without applying an age verification policy. It would therefore create a requirement for businesses selling vaping products online to take steps to establish and ensure that any customer attempting to purchase those products online was above the age of 18.
Although I am incredibly sympathetic to the shadow Minister’s intentions, as I said earlier, the Bill already makes it an offence in England and Wales to sell a vaping or nicotine product to anyone under the age of 18. As with in-person retail, online retailers must take all reasonable steps to avoid selling vaping products to anyone under age. Alongside the Bill, we are exploring how we can enhance online age verification to further tackle online under-age sales. The office for digital identities and attributes, which sits within the Department for Science, Innovation and Technology, is creating a framework of standards and governance, underpinned by legislation, which will enable the widespread use of trusted digital identity services. We are working closely with DSIT to consider how its work to enable the use of digital identities can best support retailers selling tobacco and vapes, whether online or in-person. It is for those reasons that I commend clauses 10, 59 and 76.
Gregory Stafford
I may have missed the Minister’s explanation, but why has he decided not to have the incremental increase for vapes when he has it for smoking? Does he feel that there is something fundamentally different about vapes, beyond the smoking cessation element, that could have been an exemption from the progressive age range that he has for tobacco?
Andrew Gwynne
The hon. Gentleman should panic not; I had not quite come to the end of my contribution. I was merely saying that it is for those reasons that I commend clause 10, clause 59 and clause 76 to the Committee.
Andrew Gwynne
If the hon. Lady will allow me to first answer her hon. Friend, it may well be that I answer her thoughts in the course of answering him. The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right that there is a difference here between our approach to tobacco and to vapes. The hon. Lady—the shadow Minister—has, rightly, always been, and will continue to be, a doughty campaigner for a nicotine-free generation and for a smoke-free generation. That may well be where we end up at some stage in the future. However, we believe that the measures in the Bill are entirely appropriate and proportionate. We are not planning to raise the age of sale for vapes in a similar way to that for tobacco; let me explain why.
Tobacco is a uniquely harmful product. No other consumer product kills two thirds of its users. It is therefore entirely appropriate to create a smoke-free generation, as we are seeking to do in this legislation, and to gradually phase out tobacco so that it is a thing of history. Although vaping is not harm-free—I will come on to the harms in due course—it is less harmful than smoking and, currently, we do not believe that a generational age of sale restriction on vapes would be an appropriate response to the current evidence in relation to health harms. Instead, the Bill contains strong measures to stop the promotion and the blatant advertising of vapes to children, and so bring about definitive and positive change to stop future generations from becoming hooked on nicotine.
It may well be, over the course of the coming years, that greater evidence emerges about the harms of nicotine. Lots of studies of vaping are taking place and it may well be that we have to take further action; that is why the measures in the Bill are permissive. The tobacco industry has often, after having one route closed off to it, sought an alternative route to maintain market share and market presence. It may well be that the vaping industry employs exactly the same tactics—all the evidence so far would suggest that it does. That is why the measures in the Bill are not just proportionate for the here and now but future-proof, so that Ministers can come back to Parliament, on a whole range of issues, and seek to close off other routes.
I would hope that, with that explanation, the hon. Member for Farnham and Bordon understands that there is a very big difference between tobacco and vaping. However, we reserve the right to return to Parliament and to utilise the powers in this Bill, should we be granted them, to ensure that, if there is evidence of harms, we can immediately respond to those.
Jack Rankin
I commend the Minister on making the evidence-based point about the difference between a smoke-free generation and a nicotine-free generation. Does he agree—I think he does, given the comments he has just made—that there are some somewhat sweeping powers here, which could be used to come back and ask for more legislation against vaping companies? Does he agree that that potential lack of certainty for legitimate vaping businesses might impede investment in this space, which is actually contributing to the benefit of a smoke-free generation?
Andrew Gwynne
There is nothing in the Bill that we are proposing to do that will restrict the legitimate sale of vapes. As a Government, we recognise that vapes have been used, and continue to be used, as a stop smoking tool. Our advice remains very clear: vapes are not harm free. We do not yet know the full extent of the harm, but as we heard from the chief medical officers from the four nations, it is unlikely that they are harm free. Indeed, there is limited evidence showing some harms, and there are lots of studies and research taking place to ascertain what the long-term impacts of vaping might be.
Our advice remains clear: if a person has never smoked, not smoking, and not vaping, is the best thing. If a person has smoked, vaping is safer than smoking, but it is not risk-free, and as a smoking cessation tool, it has proven to be successful for some. We do not want children to ever take up vaping—ever, and not in adulthood, either. Vaping is for people who have been smokers who want to give up; vapes are a safer product than tobacco.
Dr Johnson
I thank the Minister for clearly explaining that children should never vape. In fact, if children are smoking and wish to quit, they can get support from their GP and others, but they should not use vaping, because vaping is bad for children.
To take the Minister back to my question about new clause 10, before he took the two previous interventions, he said that he is working with DSIT to provide regulations and legislation that would cover new clause 10 and ensure that online sellers of age-restricted products are obliged to check a person’s age before selling them. Will he advise when he expects such regulations to be available? Will they be in time for his smoke-free generation in a couple of years’ time?
Andrew Gwynne
I absolutely hope that the measures will be worked on at pace and will be available for that. Officials from the Department of Health and Social Care are working closely with colleagues in DSIT to ensure that these matters are included in the online age verification legislation that it is seeking to introduce.
A couple of other points were raised in the course of the debate. On the issue of fines and why there are inconsistencies, I do not wish to over-labour the point, but the maximum fines that the shadow Minister quoted are consistent with existing tobacco and vapes legislation. We believe they are proportionate to the severity of the offences. There is a bit of a pushmi-pullyu argument here, because on the one hand we have had amendments that seek to have more lenient penalties, and on the other, arguments for harsher penalties. We believe that the current fine levels in England are appropriate, which is why we are remaining with them. It is for trading standards to take a proportionate approach to enforcement, deciding the appropriate action to take for a given case to achieve compliance based on the evidence before it.
On TikTok and advertising, I understand that the Advertising Standards Agency has issued an enforcement notice to vaping companies and brands instructing them to stop any advertising on TikTok. To date, it has reported around 300 posts, approximately 80% of which predated the notice to TikTok for removal.
On the issue of enforcement with physical sales, and online sales with age verification, it was interesting that in the evidence session we heard from National Trading Standards that it has undertaken test purchasing both in brick and mortar premises and online and that the failure rate in brick and mortar premises was 26%, compared with 10% online. We do not want any breaches of the law, but that puts into context that the current issues tend to be on the ground rather than online—although we need to cover all bases. I ask the shadow Minister to withdraw her amendments and proposed new clause.
Dr Johnson
I am grateful to the Minister for providing the extra information. Amendments 63, 64, 81 and 80 were designed once again to provoke debate on the coherency of the penalties across the different clauses of the Bill. Sometimes the penalties are different for the same offence and, inexplicably, sometimes they are the same for different offences that perhaps one would expect them to be different for. However, I will not press those amendments to a vote, and I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 10 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 11
PURCHASE OF VAPING OR NICOTINE PRODUCTS ON BEHALF OF UNDER 18S
Dr Johnson
Amendments 65 and 66 apply to clause 11. In line with other Opposition amendments tabled to various clauses of this Bill, they seek to provoke debate on the coherency of the penalties. They encourage the Minister to look in detail at those penalties before Report—specifically, to consider the differences between the shop worker, the shopkeeper and the shop owner in terms of the level of fine required, and also to consider the individual who inadvertently commits an offence on one occasion versus the person or company that deliberately and repeatedly flouts the law and require different handling.
Amendment 65 amends clause 11 to add at the end of page 6, line 5,
“, save if it is a first offence.”,
while amendment 66 inserts:
“A person who has admitted guilt”—
that is, a person who has owned up—
“of a first offence under this section is liable to a fine not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale”.
I think I have explained what those are for.
Clause 11 makes it a criminal offence for a person aged 18 or over to purchase, or attempt to purchase, a vaping or nicotine product on behalf of someone who is under the age of 18—essentially stopping adults from buying vapes for kids. Clearly, buying things for children that are so potentially harmful to them is not the action of a responsible adult.
If a person is charged with this offence, they can defend themselves by saying that they had no reason to suspect that the person they were buying for was under 18. It is not really clear to me when that sort of a situation would occur. If someone is under 18, it should be fairly obvious that they are quite young. Any responsible adult who knew the child would have an idea of how old they were, and any responsible adult who did not know the child would surely guess that there was a risk in buying something for someone who looked young, in case they were under 18 and incriminated themselves. I understand why the defence is there, but I am not really sure how it would be used. The Minister may be able to enlighten us further.
A person found guilty in relation to this offence is liable to a fine up to level 4 on the standard scale, which amounts to £2,500. This clause is very important, because we must stop children getting access to vapes. Popular culture tells us that vapes are very accessible to children. For example, we were all glued to our screens—I know we were in the Johnson household—watching Luke Littler, the recent BBC young sports personality of the year, win the PDC world darts championship. It was fabulous to see someone so young achieve such an amazing feat.
Luke Littler won half a million pounds, which is a wonderful thing for that young gentleman, but he reportedly said that he would celebrate by vaping. Of course, he is actually a 17-year-old young man, despite his great achievements. He is a sports prodigy, a national hero, and a wonderful example to young people of what can be achieved at a young age, but presumably, until he turns 18 very soon, he will need someone else to buy vapes for him. That will be illegal under the new law.
On a more serious note, we know through the various different reports that on county lines, where people are selling drugs, they are often giving vapes to children as a way of enticing them into feeling that they are favoured by those adults. They are using children’s addiction to nicotine and desire for further vapes, and for access to further vapes, as part of a grooming process to get them into dreadful situations with county lines. Clause 11, which prevents children’s access to vaping and nicotine products via a proxy adult, is a very sensible measure that I will support.
Andrew Gwynne
I am grateful to the shadow Minister for her support. Clause 11 means that it will be an offence for a person aged 18 or over to buy, or attempt to buy, a vaping or nicotine product on behalf of a person who is under the age of 18 in England and Wales. The clause replaces the existing restrictions, which only apply to nicotine vapes.
Similarly, for Northern Ireland, clause 77 means that it will be an offence for a person aged 18 or over to buy, or attempt to buy, a vaping or nicotine product on behalf of a person who is under the age of 18 in Northern Ireland. The clause replaces the existing restrictions that only apply to nicotine vapes and extends them to non-nicotine vapes and nicotine products such as nicotine pouches. Anyone convicted of the offence would be liable to a fine of up to £5,000. Both of these clauses contain the defence for those charged that, if they can prove they had no reason to suspect the person they were buying the product for was under 18, that would be considered.
Dr Johnson
I thank the hon. Member for his intervention. I will come to amendment 96 and the mental health aspect shortly, but I will deal with the clause first, which makes sure that these vending machines are not available. At the moment, one can buy nicotine products in a vending machine where those exist. As I said, the ASH survey showed that 6.6% of 11 to 17-year-olds who currently vape have access to vapes through a vending machine, so this is happening in the UK already. The hon. Gentleman will have heard me say earlier that, until this Bill passes, it is not illegal to sell nicotine products to children. Some responsible retailers have a voluntary scheme for not selling to under-18s, but it is not a legal requirement. Some irresponsible sellers do sell vapes to children.
Paragraph 782 of the impact assessment says:
“There is limited evidence presented on the number and locations of vape vending machines, however it is suggested by online retailers that they are currently predominantly placed in locations such as nightclubs, bars and pubs. It is anticipated that”
without this legislation
“the market will develop further and vape vending machines will become more prevalent in other locations such as supermarkets, train/bus stations and other locations accessible to under-18s.”
In my mind’s eye, I remember recently seeing a vape in a vending machine alongside sweets; I just cannot quite remember where it was, but it was certainly somewhere that was easily accessible to people.
The aim of the clause is to protect children and to ensure that vending machines—commonly found dispensing food and drink in child-friendly establishments such as canteens and leisure centres, and easily used by young people—are not available. The machines protect anon—anonymity; I might have to put my teeth in, Sir Mark—
Jack Rankin
I thank my hon. Friend for her intervention and I agree with everything she has just said.
I will just finish my remarks to my hon. Friend the shadow Minister. She talked about this measure being a further opportunity; I would suggest that the easy availability of nicotine products in certain instances would be an aid on that journey.
We should be working pragmatically on amendments such as this in Committee, to ensure that the evidence is considered and that the right balance is struck. I will support the amendment tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for South Northamptonshire. Because the nicotine product vending machine measure is part of clause 12, I will vote against clause 12 stand part.
Andrew Gwynne
Clauses 12 and 78 prohibit vape and nicotine product vending machines in England, Wales and Northern Ireland, and similar provisions are made elsewhere for Scotland. However, it is really important that the Committee understands that Scotland already specifically prohibits vape vending machines.
Clause 12 makes it an offence for any person managing or controlling a premises to have a vaping or nicotine product vending machine available for use, which effectively prohibits the sale of vapes and nicotine products from vending machines. I will try to clarify this point for the shadow Minister. She asks, “Who is responsible? Who is that person?” The offence is linked to the person with management control of the premises, as that is the most appropriate mechanism; they have control over whether the vending machine is present. That is the answer to her question.
This Government will stop the next generation from becoming hooked on nicotine. To do that, it is essential that we stop children from accessing harmful and age-restricted products. Prior to the prohibition of tobacco vending machines, we know that children who smoked regularly used those machines as their source of cigarettes. We cannot allow the same thing to happen with vapes.
Vending machines do not require any human oversight, so it is much easier for determined individuals to bypass age-of-sale restrictions and, crucially, to undertake proxy purchases on behalf of individuals under 18 because there is a much lower chance of their being challenged about such a purchase. Additionally, by their very presence vending machines advertise their contents and the Bill will ban the advertising of vapes. We need to ensure that children are protected from harmful and addictive products. Ensuring that we remove the ability of children to access age-restricted products is an essential part of that approach.
I turn to amendment 96, regarding the exempting of mental health units from the vending machine prohibition. I am grateful to the hon. Member for South Northamptonshire for bringing this important issue before the Committee today for discussion. Her amendment would allow vape and nicotine product vending machines to be available for use in specialised mental health units in England and Wales.
I am very sympathetic to the needs of adult smokers and vapers in mental health facilities, and I know that this topic came up during the evidence session. However, we do not currently believe that there is a need to exempt mental health settings or other healthcare settings from these requirements. Scotland did not exempt mental health units from its vape vending machine ban, and it has had no issues. I want to be clear, because it is really important that I make this point: we are not banning the sale of vapes and nicotine products in mental health settings. We are only prohibiting their sale from automatic machines that provide no means to prevent proxy purchasing. Facilities that contain shops will still be able to sell vapes to patients and staff. Additionally, patients in mental health settings may be able to benefit from stop smoking services and the swap to stop scheme.
The majority of in-patient trusts, both acute and mental health, successfully deliver stop smoking support to smokers. As part of the swap to stop scheme, localities can request free vaping starter kits to provide to adults engaging with their local stop smoking services. Awards have now been made to individual services in a range of settings, including NHS and mental health settings, and to specific populations. It will still be legal and possible for vending machines to dispense medicinally licensed nicotine replacement therapies such as gums, patches and inhalers. These important medicines will still be available to patients who are looking to quit smoking or who are struggling with their nicotine addiction.
Dr Beccy Cooper (Worthing West) (Lab)
I thank my hon. Friend for making the arguments on vending machines. From a public health consultant point of view, I have listened and think there is a reasonable debate to be had. I am convinced by the arguments that my hon. Friend the Minister has given, but I would ask that following the debate the conversation continues as the Bill progresses and that the Department of Health and Social Care continues to have these conversations.
Andrew Gwynne
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that. This debate will not stop here at Committee stage; I am almost certain it will be raised on Report. If it is not concluded to the satisfaction of those who wish to see such provisions in the Bill, I have no doubt that it will be raised in the other place, too.
However, it is really important that we do not end up with unintended consequences. We have to get this legislation right. The smoking cessation services available are far-reaching in these settings, and I see no reason for an exemption, given that nicotine replacement therapies such as gums, patches, inhalers—important medicines—will still be still be available to patients with a nicotine addiction in mental health settings. It is for that reason that I ask the hon. Member for South Northamptonshire to withdraw her amendment.
Sarah Bool
I would like to press my amendment to a Division.
Question put, That the amendment be made.
The Chair
Order. I do beg your pardon; I am wrong. I am never wrong! But this time I am. I call the Minister to speak first.
Andrew Gwynne
Thank you, Sir Roger. I was doubting my officials, but perhaps I should have had more trust in the notes that they gave me, which say “AG to open”—heaven forbid that you, in the Chair, would ever be wrong.
Clauses 13, 14 and 79 provide a power for the Secretary of State, Welsh Ministers, and the Department of Health, Social Services and Public Safety in Northern Ireland, to regulate the display of relevant products, including prices and empty retail packaging, within retail establishments in England, Wales and Northern Ireland. Tobacco product displays are currently regulated under the Tobacco Advertising and Promotion Act 2002. This Bill repeals and replaces that Act, so tobacco display regulations will be made under this new power for when the repeal takes effect.
Clause 61 provides Scottish Ministers with powers to regulate the display of herbal smoking products, vaping products and nicotine products, and their prices, in retailers in Scotland. The powers also allow regulation of the display of empty retail packaging or anything that represents the products. It is slightly different to the equivalent clauses for England, Wales and Northern Ireland, which also cover tobacco products. Tobacco products are not included in clause 61, because Scotland has made its own provision on tobacco displays under the Tobacco and Primary Medical Services (Scotland) Act 2010.
Evidence shows us that vapes and nicotine products are currently too easily accessible to children within shops. Vapes are sometimes displayed alongside sweets and confectionery in retail environments, and often promoted in shop-front windows. These products are too easily seen and too readily available for children. That is unacceptable. We must reduce the visibility and the accessibility of vaping and nicotine products to protect children from getting hooked on nicotine.
These clauses provide each of the devolved Governments with the power to regulate such displays and ensure that they are proportionate to the risks that these products pose to the audiences within retail establishments. They also ensure that the Secretary of State, Welsh Ministers, the Department of Health, Social Services and Public Safety in Northern Ireland, and Scottish Ministers, will be required to consult before making regulations. I commend the clauses to the Committee.
The Chair
Let me just explain: the clause stand part is Government business, so it is absolutely correct that the Minister is entitled to move it. He is allowed to move it formally if he chooses to do so. He does not have to speak to it, but by moving it formally, he can then open the debate and come back later if he so chooses. He has chosen to take the path he has gone down and he was absolutely right to do so.
Dr Johnson
I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention, which goes to the principle of advertising, and whether there needs to be an exemption for medical advertising of vaping as a stop smoking tool by health professionals, for example in doctors’ surgeries, where it may also be visible to child patients. That is not really the aim of clauses 13 and 14, which focus on the display of products in shops. They are less about how the products are advertised and more about where they are displayed and how visible they are to someone shopping.
To some extent, my hon. Friend has a point about how we convey the message to smokers that vaping devices are items they can use to help them quit smoking—a message given by the chief medical officer—and about the distinction between that advertising and the sort of advertising that sees sports stadiums and sports shirts emblazoned with the brands of vaping companies, such that young children watching their heroes on the pitch, playing football or rugby, see vaping as a good thing. We will come to that later, but it is distinctly different from clauses 13 and 14.
At the moment, the legislation most relevant to where products are displayed is probably the Tobacco and Related Products Regulations 2016, known as the TRPR, which brought EU tobacco products directive 2014/40 into law. The regulations, which are now in the form of retained EU law, set standards for nicotine vapes, including limits on nicotine strength, bottle and tank sizes, and rules on packaging and advertising. But when it comes to the display of vape products, there are no specific regulations. They are openly displayed in stores, in large and small shops, both household names and individual retail outlets. They are also displayed in outlets that we might not expect. I noticed that the place I took my son for a haircut was selling both haircuts and vapes, and that a shop in the local town that repairs mobile phones and sells second-hand devices also sells vapes. The number of places that sell vapes and display them in their shop window is remarkable.
The Department of Health and Social Care has expressed concern about the lack of regulation, warning that children can easily see and pick up vapes due to them being displayed within aisles close to sweets, and on accessible shelves and display towers on the shop floor close to children’s eye level. A particular concern to me—and no doubt to many others in the Committee—is the visual similarity between a vape display and a shelf of sweets. Vapes are often displayed in an array of eye-catching colours. It is not uncommon to see them in a rainbow, with a range of sweet and fruity flavours on offer, including specific sweet brand names like Skittles, Starburst and Sour Patch Kids. The way they are sometimes presented as a safe alternative to smoking—which we understand that they are for smokers—can mislead consumers into thinking they are risk free, which is concerning considering that they contain nicotine and other harmful chemicals. I have also noticed a fashion for an increasing number of products to be advertised as pure, fresh, natural and organic, potentially to give the impression that they are less damaging than they are.
Finally, I have not seen this raised before, but I would like the Minister to consider that the fact that these highly addictive products are so easily accessible on the shop floor and at children’s height makes it easy for children to pick them up and walk out with them, particularly if they want to avoid being asked for ID by the shopkeeper. Putting them behind the counter where they are less accessible to children may reduce that temptation.
Clauses 14, 61 and 79 relate to similar regulations in Wales, Northern Ireland and Scotland. I do not intend to go through them and repeat my arguments.
Andrew Gwynne
I reassure the shadow Minister that the measures in clauses 13 and 14 will regulate only the display of pricing, not the actual prices. We are not yet in the realms of fixing prices for products—I hope that reassures the hon. Member for Windsor, too.
On engagement with the tobacco industry and the vape industry, the UK is party to the World Health Organisation framework convention on tobacco control, so we have an obligation to protect the development of public health policy from the vested interests of the tobacco industry. We take that commitment incredibly seriously and, in line with the requirements of article 5.3 of the FCTC, we summarise the views of respondents with disclosed links to the tobacco industry when responding to consultations.
With respect to the display of vapes, we know—and the shadow Minister has expressed very powerfully—that research on vape packaging has shown that reduced brand imagery can decrease the appeal to young people who have not previously smoked or vaped, without reducing the appeal of vapes to adult smokers. That is why I believe the measures in clauses 13 and 14 are appropriate and measured, and will have the outcomes that both the shadow Minister and those of us on the Government side of the Committee desire. I commend the clauses to the Committee.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 13 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 14 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 15
Free distribution and discount of products
Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Seventh sitting)
(Limited Text - Ministerial Extracts only)
Read Full debateThursday 16th January 2025
(1 year, 6 months ago)
Public Bill CommitteesTobacco and Vapes Act 2026 Read Hansard Text Amendment Paper: Public Bill Committee Amendments as at 16 January 2025 - (16 Jan 2025)
This text is a record of ministerial contributions to a debate held as part of the Tobacco and Vapes Act 2026 passage through Parliament.
In 1993, the House of Lords Pepper vs. Hart decision provided that statements made by Government Ministers may be taken as illustrative of legislative intent as to the interpretation of law.
This extract highlights statements made by Government Ministers along with contextual remarks by other members. The full debate can be read here
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
Dr Caroline Johnson (Sleaford and North Hykeham) (Con)
Clause 15 makes it an offence to give away or discount any vape product. That is important because discounts encourage us to buy more things. That is what they are there for; it is what promotions are for. They encourage us to buy things that we did not want or need. We do not want people to consume excessive quantities of vapes that they do not want to have, but that does happen. A cursory glance on the internet shows that numerous websites are advertising vape discount codes and vouchers offering 10% or 15% discounts on vapes, as well as giftcards that are readily available for online purchase. The clause therefore replaces section 9 of the Tobacco Advertising and Promotion Act 2002 and extends its scope, as there are currently no restrictions on businesses freely distributing nicotine and non-nicotine vaping products, cigarette papers and herbal smoking products.
In 2023 the former Prime Minister, my right hon. Friend the Member for Richmond and Northallerton (Rishi Sunak), created an illicit vapes enforcement squad, backed by £3 million. It was designed to close the legal loophole that allowed the vaping industry to provide free samples of vapes to be distributed regardless of consumer age. That was patently unacceptable, and I welcome the action that the previous Government took on the issue. I point out that giving away vapes was pretty common. In fact, my own parliamentary staffer went to a promotional event on vaping held in Parliament itself, in this very House, and was given free samples of Vuse vapes. I have been made aware by staffers that similar events take place outside Parliament, so I think that this is a useful clause and I will support it.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Care (Andrew Gwynne)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Roger. May I start by not only thanking the shadow Minister for her support, but congratulating my hon. Friend the Member for Dartford on his birthday? [Hon. Members: “Hear, hear!”] It is a real pleasure that we are able to provide him with a full day’s entertainment—better than Netflix.
Jim Dickson (Dartford) (Lab)
I thank the Minister very much for his birthday felicitations. There is nowhere I would rather be than here.
Andrew Gwynne
I was just about to say, Sir Roger, that might be one thing that we have to divide on later. I wish my hon. Friend the Member for Dartford all the best for today and hope that he gets home in reasonable time to enjoy with friends and family what is left of his birthday.
I thank hon. Members for their speeches on these clauses today and earlier this week. The Government have two objectives on vaping. The first is to tackle youth vaping. Too many children are vaping and vapes are attractive and accessible to them. The Bill will bring about definitive and positive change to prevent future generations from becoming hooked on nicotine. The second objective is to support adult smokers to access vapes to help them to quit smoking. As the chief medical officer says:
“If you smoke, vaping is safer; if you don’t smoke, don’t vape; and the marketing of vapes to children is utterly abhorrent.”––[Official Report, Tobacco and Vapes Public Bill Committee, 7 January 2025; c. 11, Q8.]
I concur with that entirely.
In support of those aims, the clauses do not apply to licensed medicines and there is a defence available when any free vaping or nicotine product is given out in accordance with arrangements made by a public health authority or a public authority. That means that smoking cessation services will be able to continue to support adult smokers to quit smoking, for example by providing free smoking cessation quit aids where appropriate. That includes our national swap to stop programme that continues to help smokers move from cigarettes to vapes.
I also stress that we will continue to work with the Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency to support applications from industry for vapes as a licensed medicine. As Dr Laura Squire, the MHRA chief healthcare quality and access officer, stated in the evidence session, there may be progress in this area. I hope that that assures hon. Members that we continue to take a balanced approach to vaping, both through the measures in the Bill and our wider work on tobacco control.
More generally, the clauses make it an offence to give away any tobacco, herbal smoking, vaping or nicotine product as well as cigarette papers if the purpose or effect is to promote any tobacco, herbal smoking, smoking-related, vaping or nicotine product to a member of the public of any age—for England and Wales, in clause 15, for Scotland, in clause 62, and for Northern Ireland, in clause 80. The maximum penalty for the offence will be imprisonment for up to two years, a fine, or both.
The clause also extends to coupons and vouchers and to selling a product at a substantial discount. These measures mean that disreputable actors cannot bypass the restriction by offering a free voucher for a product instead of a free product. The clause also covers products that promote any of the aforementioned products—for example, t-shirts with vape company branding to promote vapes cannot be freely given away. On discounts, we are only prohibiting substantial discounts, so we can make sure that businesses cannot heavily discount products to the point at which the price is no longer relevant. Businesses can still discount products if they choose to. Clause 62 also includes a power for Scottish Ministers to create additional defences.
It should never have been the case that addictive nicotine and vaping products could be legally handed out for free. This is one of the many avenues by which industry is addicting our children. It is for these reasons I commend the clauses to the Committee.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 15 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 16
Prohibition of retail sales of tobacco products etc in England without a licence
Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
The Chair
With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
Schedule 1.
Clauses 17 and 18 stand part.
Schedule 2.
Clause 19 stand part.
Schedule 3.
Clauses 20 and 21 stand part.
Schedule 4.
Clause 22 stand part.
Clause 85 stand part.
Schedules 11 to 13.
Sarah Bool
My hon. Friend makes a valid point. We do not want the introduction of this legislation to lead to any overburdening. We do not want the smaller convenience stores that are trying to operate to be challenged and put out of business. We want this to be a very practical measure so I agree that would be something to look into. I wonder whether the Minister might offer any further thoughts on that.
Andrew Gwynne
I thank Members for their contributions.
Clauses 16 to 22, clause 85, and schedules 1 to 4 and 11 to 13 establish powers for Ministers in England, Wales and Northern Ireland to introduce a licensing scheme for the retail sale of tobacco, vaping products, nicotine products, cigarette papers and herbal smoking products. There is currently no requirement for a business to obtain a licence to sell these products, which is a major gap in enforcement. This gap is hard to defend since the sale of products such as alcohol does require a licence, while tobacco—the single biggest preventable cause of death, disability and ill health—does not. Vaping and nicotine products also carry, as we have heard, a significant risk of harm and addiction.
Introducing a licensing scheme will strengthen enforcement of the law, acting as a deterrent to rogue retailers who breach sales regulations, supporting legitimate businesses and ultimately supporting public health outcomes. Retail licensing is a highly popular intervention, as the shadow Minister helpfully pointed out, because the polling shows that 81% of retailers and 83% of the public are supportive of tobacco retail licensing, and it is one of the most popular tobacco interventions surveyed.
Clause 16 establishes that an individual in England is required to hold a personal licence in order to sell tobacco, vaping products or nicotine products, expose those products for sale, and possess products for sale. The clause also establishes that a person must have a premises licence for any premises in England used for the storage, exposure or supply of a relevant product to a retail customer.
The clause provides for a discretionary power for the Secretary of State to make exceptions by regulations to the requirements for a personal or premises licence. This will enable regulations to appropriately account for all possible types of retail. The Secretary of State in England must, by regulations, make provisions for how licences are to be granted and must conduct a consultation before regulations are introduced. The scheme will be commenced by regulations.
I hope that in part answers the question posed by the hon. Member for Farnham and Bordon, because we want to ensure that the licensing regime is fit for purpose not just for bricks and mortar businesses, but for online business.
Dr Caroline Johnson
Will the Minister address under which part of the legislation regulations will be made in Scotland?
Andrew Gwynne
I will come to Scotland in due course.
Schedule 1 establishes the framework for the regulations. It establishes that the licensing authority will be the local authority, and defines the relevant types of local authority that regulations could establish as the licensing authority. In answer to the shadow Minister’s question, given that there is likely to be local government reorganisation in the future, it will be, and will remain, the responsibility of the outgoing local authority that is the licensing authority to continue the licensing function up to the date that the new local authority comes in, out of a shadow form.
The usual practice in local government reorganisation is that a shadow local authority is in place for a year in advance. It sorts out restructuring and necessary background work, with local members who were elected to the shadow authority becoming the members of the new local authority on the commencement date. That was true of the Local Government Acts in 1972 and 1996, and it has been true of local government reorganisations since. I have no reason to believe it will not be true of the next set of local government reorganisations. For a period of time, the outgoing local authority will be the licensing authority because it is the local authority until the date that it moves to new arrangements. From day one of the new arrangements, the new authority will be the licensing authority.
Dr Johnson
Some areas have a unitary authority, some have a unitary authority and a mayor, and some have restricted county councils. As local reorganisation occurs, how will the tier of local authority that has the competency and duties under this legislation be defined?
Andrew Gwynne
Where we know an area is moving from a two-tier to a unitary authority, the clue is in the name: the unitary authority will be the licensing authority because there will be only one local authority covering that area.
Gregory Stafford
I am sure the Minister has much greater understanding of his own Government’s policy, but my understanding is that there will be some devolution of powers to parish and town councils. Will they potentially become the licensing authority when there is a downward devolution of power?
Andrew Gwynne
No. The local authority, not the parish council, would be and will remain the licensing authority, as is the case at the present time. Notwithstanding that there may be a quasi-additional tier in the form of a mayor and a combined authority, where areas move from a two-tier to a unitary authority, it will be the local authority that is the licensing authority. That is what happens in my constituency in Greater Manchester, where we have effectively had unitary authorities since the metropolitan county council was abolished in 1986. Tameside metropolitan borough council and Manchester city council are both unitary authorities. They are both the licensing authorities for their respective parts of my constituency, even though we have a Greater Manchester combined authority and a Great Manchester metro mayor. I hope that clarifies the issue.
Schedule 1 also establishes that regulations may make provisions regarding the granting, duration, renewal and revocation of licences, and enables the licensing authority to charge a fee for the granting of a licence. In response to the point raised by the hon. Member for Windsor, the fee structure may be set at a level that takes into account administration and enforcement costs. The local authority will be able to use the fee to help cover the cost of granting licences and enforcing the scheme. That is the closest I can get: we intend it to be cost-neutral for the purpose of operating the scheme.
Schedule 1 establishes that regulations can place conditions on the licence. Retailers that breach those conditions will be subject to civil financial penalties. Regulations may make provision for licensing authorities to publish information about licences, such as the addresses of licensed retailers, and, to maintain fairness, regulations must include an appeals route, so that retailers can, for example, appeal decisions on the granting of a licence. Finally, regulations may require that a licensing authority must consider guidance published by the Secretary of State to support the smooth implementation of the scheme.
Clause 19 and schedule 3 establish the same power to introduce a licensing scheme in Wales, with the same framework for the regulations. The schedule establishes the licensing authority in Wales to be the council of the county or county borough. Clause 85 achieves the same in Northern Ireland by inserting a new clause into the Tobacco Retailers Act (Northern Ireland) 2014, while schedule 11 establishes the same framework. In Northern Ireland, a council will be the licensing authority.
Clause 17 creates offences in relation to the licensing scheme in England. It makes it an offence to sell, expose for sale, or possess for the purpose of sale any relevant products without, or not in accordance with, a personal licence. The clause also makes it an offence to use a premises in England for the storage of relevant product for the purpose of retail sale, the exposure for sale, or the supply of any relevant product to a retail customer without, or not in accordance with, a premises licence, and knowingly to provide materially false or misleading information in a licence application.
Anyone found to be committing a licensing offence may be issued with an unlimited fine on conviction. As an alternative to prosecution, trading standards may issue a £2,500 fixed penalty notice, which is an on-the-spot fine. Regulations can confer on courts a discretionary power to suspend or revoke a licence on conviction. The court may order relevant product to be forfeited and destroyed, to prevent a business from continuing to sell or unlawfully selling product.
Clause 20 establishes the same licensing offences in Wales, and clause 85 establishes the same licensing offences in Northern Ireland. In Northern Ireland, district councils will enforce the licensing scheme. People convicted of a licensing offence face a fine of up to £5,000. As an alternative to prosecution, councils in Northern Ireland can issue a fixed penalty notice, the value for which will be determined in regulations.
Clause 18 creates civil financial penalties for breaches of licence conditions in England, to ensure that licensed retailers continue to follow the rules. Breaching conditions is a civil matter, not dealt with by the courts. The value of the civil financial penalty cannot exceed £2,500. The clause also provides a limited and specific power to update that value to account for inflation, to ensure that the value remains relevant. A civil penalty cannot be issued if the breach of the licence condition already constitutes a licensing offence. That is to ensure that someone cannot be subject to double punishment for the same licence breach.
Dr Johnson
The power to increase the fine is in line with inflation, but if evidence over time showed the Minister that the fine was not adequate to deter the offence from taking place, the Government might wish to raise it by more than inflation, to provide a greater deterrent. Would it be wise to make the power more flexible?
Andrew Gwynne
As I have said during previous outings in the course of this Committee, the Bill merely rolls over the existing fines. We would need to do a much more complex piece of work to uprate the fines beyond the current values, plus inflation. That is not what the Bill seeks to do; we do not want to overcomplicate it.
The Chair
No, it is too late; I am sorry. Members have to understand that if they wish to make a contribution, they must make that clear by standing up; otherwise, I push forward. It is too late. The clause is debated.
The Lord Commissioner of His Majesty’s Treasury (Taiwo Owatemi)
Sorry, Sir Roger. We had wanted to adjourn at clause 22.
The Chair
But we have just agreed clause 23. It is done. Whether you like it or not, the Committee has said yes to clause 23, so it stands part of the Bill. We cannot go back; there is no retrospective route in Committee. If Members wish to debate clauses 24 to 27, which technically have not been moved, they may do so, but they cannot debate clause 23.
Thursday 16th January 2025
(1 year, 6 months ago)
Public Bill CommitteesTobacco and Vapes Act 2026 Read Hansard Text Amendment Paper: Public Bill Committee Amendments as at 16 January 2025 - (16 Jan 2025)
The Committee divided: - Ayes: 12 / Noes: 4 - Question accordingly agreed to.
The Committee divided: - Ayes: 12 / Noes: 4 - Question accordingly agreed to.
This text is a record of ministerial contributions to a debate held as part of the Tobacco and Vapes Act 2026 passage through Parliament.
In 1993, the House of Lords Pepper vs. Hart decision provided that statements made by Government Ministers may be taken as illustrative of legislative intent as to the interpretation of law.
This extract highlights statements made by Government Ministers along with contextual remarks by other members. The full debate can be read here
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
Sarah Bool
I think that is what they would do. If they did not step in at that point, any financing or any bank that had a mortgage over the property would certainly be looking to do that—to try to clear out the property and make sure that it is free to be used thereafter. It may seem like a technicality, but I can foresee this point as one that will be wrangled over for many years to come.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Care (Andrew Gwynne)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Dowd.
This group of clauses relates to restricted premises orders. These are existing measures that local authority trading standards in England and Wales can use when dealing with a retailer that persistently breaches the age of sale and vending machine restrictions for tobacco products, herbal smoking products, cigarette papers, vapes and nicotine products. The clauses are based on and replace existing legislation.
A restricted premises order is an important enforcement mechanism for tackling persistent offenders. A persistent offender is someone who has committed an under-age sale of cigarette papers, tobacco, herbal smoking, vaping or nicotine products or has committed the offence of selling from a vending machine, at least twice within the previous two years. The person who brought the proceedings for the sales offence makes a complaint to a magistrates court to apply for a restricted premises order in respect of the premises where the offence was committed.
Clause 24 requires notice to be given to people who might have an interest in a restricted premises order being made in England and Wales, and sets out situations where an interested person might challenge a restricted premises order. An interested person is the occupier of the premises or someone who has an interest in it, such as the manager or owner. The clause sets out the circumstances in which notice should be given to an interested person where a restricted premises order is being applied for. Interested persons are allowed to make representations to the court to try to prevent a restricted premises order from being issued, or at least to try to vary it. This is a safeguard so that suitable steps are taken before a restricted premises order is made, and to maintain fairness so that a relevant person is informed of an impending restricted premises order.
Clause 25 provides those in receipt of a restricted premises order in England and Wales with the ability to appeal to a Crown court. This is important to the function of enforcement in the Bill as it enables businesses to appeal against a restricted premises order, such as where they feel they have a case that the order has been inappropriately or unfairly issued. This provision maintains the fairness of the enforcement regime in the Bill.
Clause 26 makes it an offence to breach a restricted premises order in England and Wales. The offence is committed when a tobacco, herbal smoking product, cigarette paper, vaping or nicotine product whose sale is prohibited under a restricted premises order is sold on the premises. The offence occurs if a person knew or ought reasonably to have known that the sale was in breach of the order. It also provides a defence for the person charged, where they prove that they took all reasonable steps to avoid a committing the offence. Making it an offence to breach a restricted premises order gives local authority trading standards the ability to escalate action to tackle persistent offenders. The severe penalty of an unlimited fine can act as a deterrent.
Finally, Clause 27 provides Welsh Ministers with the power to add to the offences for which restricted premises orders can be issued, in addition to what is already prescribed in the Bill. Offences added must be in relation to tobacco products, herbal smoking products, cigarette papers, vaping products and nicotine products only. This re-enacts an existing power for Welsh Ministers, who must consult before making regulations under this power. The clause is therefore important as it maintains existing powers that enable legislation in Wales to be kept up to date to ensure that restricted premises orders can continue to be used as an effective enforcement tool.
The Chair
I remind the Committee that if you want to talk about the clauses, this is the point at which you should do so.
Andrew Gwynne
In that case, clauses 28 to 30 relate to restricted sale orders, which are another tool in the arsenal of trading standards that can be used against those who repeatedly commit an offence. Like the clauses related to restricted premises orders, they are based on and replace existing legislation.
Clause 28 provides that a persistent offender in England and Wales can be issued with a restricted sale order. A persistent offender is someone who has committed an under-age sale of cigarette papers, tobacco or herbal smoking, vaping or nicotine products or has committed the offence of selling them from a vending machine at least twice in the previous two years. A restricted sale order is similar to a restricted premises order, but it puts a ban on an individual, rather than a premises, selling relevant products. It also prohibits the individual from having management functions related to the sale of relevant products and from keeping machines on any premises that sell relevant products. This is one of several measures in the Bill that will ensure that our enforcement approach to tackling under-age sales is both effective and proportionate. The clause is important for the overall functioning of the Bill, as it provides local authority trading standards with a further tool of enforcement. Restricted sale orders also act as a deterrent to persistent offenders, as they apply to a specific person regardless of where they are employed or whether they change employment.
Clause 29 provides those in receipt of a restricted sale order in England and Wales with the ability to appeal to a Crown court. The clause is important to the functioning of the enforcement regime in the Bill, as it enables individuals to appeal against a restricted sale order, such as where they feel that they have a case that the order has been inappropriately or unfairly issued. That maintains the fairness of the enforcement regime in the Bill.
Clause 30 makes it an offence to breach a restricted sale order issued in England and Wales. The offence is committed when the individual has done something, such as sell a product, that they have been prohibited from doing under the restricted sale order. It provides a defence where a person took all reasonable steps to avoid committing the offence. The clause is based on and replaces existing legislation. As with restricted premises orders, making it an offence to breach restricted sale orders gives local authority trading standards the ability to escalate action to tackle persistent offenders. The severe penalty of an unlimited fine can act as a deterrent.
I commend clauses 28, 29 and 30 to the Committee.
Dr Johnson
As the Minister has already described these clauses, I will not repeat that information, but I encourage him to answer my questions on the previous clauses, as they apply similarly to this group. The others were related to restricted premises; these clauses relate to restricted sales applying to people, but the questions are the same.
If one appeals to the Crown court, how much will it cost? The Minister did not answer the question about the phraseology of “on the premises” and how that would relate to the collection of items bought online. In the debate on the previous clauses—the same question applies to these ones—he did not answer why the offences in clauses 4 to 6 and 13 to 15 are not considered relevant. Will he also clarify that a different relevant offence can occur on each of the three occasions within the two years?
With regard to restricted sale orders, paragraphs (c) and (d) of clause 28(2) relate to machines used for the purpose of selling cigarettes and other banned products. It is illegal under previous clauses to sell items from a machine, so why would one need a restricted sale order to ban something that is already illegal?
The Chair
I will call the Minister. He may well wish to respond on the points related to clauses 28, 29 and 30 rather than the other points that have been raised, which can be taken up at another place and another time.
Andrew Gwynne
I will follow your guidance, Mr Dowd, because we will debate some of these issues further.
First, I apologise to the shadow Minister on the subject of the questions that she asked, particularly about the fines. The fine for a breach is level 5. That is the maximum and an unlimited fine. When it comes to the breach of a restricted premises order and the other offences we have been discussing, these are all serious offences that take place after someone has committed multiple previous offences and when several enforcement steps have already been taken along the way. It is therefore really important that trading standards has the option—and it is that, an option—to escalate enforcement measures to issue a potentially very high fine. The fine needs to reflect the severity of the offence and the fact that the offender is persistently breaching the regulations.
That follows on to the matter of record keeping raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff West. We will continue to work with trading standards during the long lead-in time that we anticipate we will have once this Bill hopefully gets Royal Assent. I am sure that trading standards already has good record-keeping that will help it to ascertain persistent offenders for rogue sales but, if it does not, we will work with it to make sure that it does and that it can properly enforce the measures in the Bill.
On the point about the current use of restricted sale orders, the data from the tobacco control survey shows that between April 2013 and March 2020, one council applied to the courts for a restricted sale order that was not approved. There have been no tobacco control survey reports since 2020, so more recent data is not available, but this information is gathered by the Chartered Trading Standards Institute, so that answers that point.
I take the point made by the hon. Member for South Northamptonshire about restricted sale orders and vending machine offences and we are seeking to remove vending machines for tobacco and vape sales. Restricted sale orders specifically prevent the sale of tobacco, vape and nicotine products, and, when offences relating to the sale of these products have been persistently committed by an individual, we think that they are a proportionate enforcement tool that is specific to the nature of the offence committed. I take the hon. Lady’s point that we are seeking to remove vending machines, but we want to make sure that the clauses are as watertight as possible so any sales from vending machines that might happen would still be covered by the scope of the measures for enforcement.
Dr Johnson
I thank the Minister for answering some of my questions. Another question related to clause 29 and appeal to the Crown court. How much does he anticipate that the average cost to interested parties will be? If he does not know, perhaps he could write to us.
On clause 28, the relevant offences do not include offences in other clauses in part 1 of the Bill, including clauses 4, 5, 6, 13, 14 and 15. They are not included as relevant offences in clause 28, or indeed clause 23. Given that the Minister wants a robust and watertight approach, why is that not the case? The other question related to online collection.
Andrew Gwynne
The hon. Lady has asked a number of technical questions. We will get back to her and the Committee about the interrelationships between different clauses.
On the question that she asks about applications to the Crown court and the fines system in the Crown court, it is of course the Crown court that deals with appeals against penalties issued in respect of criminal offences dealt with in the magistrates courts. These are matters for the courts.
I know she asked about costs, and we believe that it would not be proportionate to prevent a business that has breached tobacco and vape sale restrictions from being able to conduct other types of businesses. For serious cases, where criminal behaviour occurs on a premises, local authorities can apply for a closure order under section 80 of the 2014 Act. Closure orders fully close a business for a maximum of three months and can be extended for a further three months on application to a court. I am not sure that covers her point, but we will get back to the hon. Lady on that.
Dr Johnson
I had another question on restricted sale orders. Why has the Minister chosen to include particular clauses and not others? I believe he will write to the Committee on that question.
Dr Johnson
I asked about online sale and collection versus sale on premises. Finally, if an individual person is a repeat offender under clause 28 because they have sold tobacco three times, that would be fairly clear. If they have sold tobacco on one occasion, vapes on another and cigarette papers on another, does that still count as three relevant offences?
Andrew Gwynne
It is obvious that three separate offences have occurred, so if the hon. Lady is asking whether they count as three offences under the Bill, of course they would. They are each their own separate offence under the Bill. That is absolutely the case. We cannot be any clearer that these are three separate offences; they are in different parts of the Bill, but none the less they are offences under the Bill. I hope that clarifies that point.
In terms of online sales, what we want to ensure is that the measures in the Bill are proportionate. These clearly relate to premises rather than a virtual space. I will certainly write to the Committee to make sure that online is covered in the provisions. Throughout the measures we have discussed to date, we have discussed trying to bring the same regulation to bricks and mortars and to online, so that there is no loophole for the industry to move away from a physical space to online, to try to get around restrictions. How that relates to a particular restricted sale order is technical in detail, so I will write to the Committee at the earliest opportunity to clarify the point.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 28 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clauses 29 to 31ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 32
Enforcement by local weights and measures authorities
Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
The Chair
With this it will be convenient to consider the following:
Clauses 33 and 34 stand part.
Clause 81 stand part.
Andrew Gwynne
The clause places the duty to enforce the tobacco and vaping measures in part 1 of the Bill and any display regulations in England and Wales on local weights and measures authorities. It provides local weights and measures authorities—meaning local authority trading standards in England and Wales—with the power to use the investigatory powers under the Consumer Rights Act 2015 to conduct their enforcement activity.
Those investigatory powers are comprehensive and include the power to purchase products, observe a business, enter premises with or without a warrant, inspect products, test equipment, require the production of documents, seize goods, seize documents as evidence, break open containers and require assistance from persons on the premises. Trading standards officers are experts in enforcement, and it is vital that we provide them with the appropriate powers to perform their duty. The clause ensures that local authority trading standards can use the same investigatory powers that are used now, and known to be effective, to enable successful enforcement of the new legislation.
Clause 33 provides a requirement for local weights and measures authorities in England, meaning local authority trading standards, to consider a programme of enforcement action and the potential design of such a programme of enforcement for offences under part 1 of the Bill and display regulations, on a yearly basis. The clause is important to the Bill as it reconfirms what local authority trading standards should consider appropriate action to enforce tobacco, vapes and nicotine product regulations in their local area.
Gregory Stafford (Farnham and Bordon) (Con)
The Minister is outlining clause 33. Under subsection (2), it is clear what the programme of enforcement action might involve, but what is not clear is what the consideration means in this case. In the local authority, is that decision made by a certain department, by the cabinet or, if a combined authority, by the mayor? What is due consideration under the Bill?
Andrew Gwynne
The hon. Gentleman has answered his own question, because that very much depends on the constitutional make-up of the local authority. The governance of that local authority will determine the way in which that is considered. As licensing functions tend to be quasi-judicial in their nature, enforcement required to ensure that those licensing conditions are met means that, in effect, elected members across the authority have some role in and responsibility for giving consideration to those points. I hope that clarifies the matter for him.
Gregory Stafford
It does in the most general sense, but I am trying to get to the specifics of this, if the Minister does not mind. The clause is very clear. It says in subsection (1) of clause 33,
“Each local weights and measures authority in England must, at least once a year, consider”
and so on. Presumably, the Department has some idea of what that consideration would look like, and it is presumably the Department’s job to enforce that the local authority has made some consideration. It must have some benchmark as to what that consideration would be, otherwise how on earth will it enforce that part of the Act once passed?
Andrew Gwynne
Look, the clause merely reaffirms the current case, which is that local trading standards and weights and measures authorities must consider certain things. The hon. Gentleman is right that on the enforcement regime for tobacco and vaping products, the Bill extends the consideration that local members should give. It is very clear, with the set of measures we are dealing with in this Bill, what those considerations should be and what local councillors and the executive or the mayor should consider on behalf of the local authority. Every local authority trading standards has a programme of enforcement that is approved by that local authority; this Bill will request of them that that is extended, within the scope of the measures in the Bill—hopefully to be an Act—to include what we expect for the enforcement of tobacco and vape regulations.
The Bill will also ensure that they continue to review the action they take on a regular basis. It is really important to ensure that the enforcement regime in any particular local authority area is as robust as it can be and that, where there are deficiencies, the local authority and the members constituting it have the opportunity to put things right. Clause 34 makes the same provision for programmes of enforcement action in Wales as is made for England under clause 33, and clause 81 makes similar provision for district councils in Northern Ireland. I therefore commend these clauses to the Committee.
Dr Johnson
I thank the Minister for outlining what these clauses do. I will not repeat his summary, but I will ask him one question: could he confirm what provisions are made for Scotland, please?
Andrew Gwynne
Scottish Ministers have advised that they do not wish us to legislate on this. It is my understanding that that is why these measures relate solely to England, Wales and Northern Ireland.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 32 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clauses 33 and 34 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 35
Power of ministers to take over enforcement functions
Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
Andrew Gwynne
The shadow Minister makes an important case for these measures covering England and Wales. There are no known cases of Ministers needing to take over the enforcement of tobacco and vape regulations in England and Wales. Trading standards operates in all local areas and undertakes enforcement responsibilities, and it will continue to do so. We acknowledge as a Government that it is highly unlikely that these powers will ever need to be used, but it is important to have them to ensure that there is consistency in enforcement, if there is ever an occasion where a local authority is unable to conduct enforcement activity. We believe these powers act as a useful safeguard for very extreme circumstances.
If this power were exercised—as the shadow Minister has rightly put to us, although we do not expect it ever to have to be—how would it work in practice? It is a fair point. Ministers would decide how enforcement functions would be taken over, as well as the suitable organisations or individuals who would be involved in undertaking the enforcement action for a particular case, or cases of a particular description. That is woolly for the simple reason that we do not know what those circumstances would be. Were there circumstances severe enough to warrant Ministers utilising this power, we would want to ensure—
Dr Johnson
Ministers intervening in a particular case is obviously quite a sensitive issue, particularly where that is the prosecution of a single individual or the duty to enforce regarding a single shop. I can understand that there may be a conflict of interest, and the Secretary of State may be asked to choose a different authority to arbitrate to avoid that conflict, but how will the Minister ensure that these measures are not used for political purposes?
Andrew Gwynne
All I can say to the shadow Minister is that we do not intend to use these powers. They would hopefully never see the light of day. However, we have to legislate for—we are keen to legislate for—those exceptional circumstances that will probably never happen. Where there is a real failure on the part of a local trading standards to deliver its core functions, as set out in the Bill, Ministers must reserve the right to intervene.
Dr Johnson
With respect, if the clause said that the Secretary of State reserves the right to take over proceedings or the duty to enforce for more multiple cases in the same area, or take over the whole job of the local authority, that would perhaps make some sense, if the local authority was underperforming in its duties. However, these clauses state that it is for a specific case, not the wider failure to deliver.
Andrew Gwynne
I get that—it is difficult without having a specific example, because there has not ever been one, but we have to assume that at some stage in the future there may be a case, however unlikely that is. We have to ensure that the Secretary of State has the absolute confidence that the trading standards functions of a particular area are able to meet the ambitions of the Bill. If, for whatever highly unlikely reason, there is a conflict of interest or those functions have not been delivered in an appropriate way, Ministers need to have that opportunity to intervene. That is what this power, as unlikely as it may be, seeks to do; it is a backstop in the extreme, unlikely circumstance that local trading standards is not operating in accordance with the measures of the Bill.
Dr Johnson
Has the Minister discussed it with his Scottish and Northern Irish counterparts, and can he say whether they have a similar provision? If they do not have it, why do they feel that they do not need it?
Andrew Gwynne
Scotland does not have the powers in the Bill, and nor does Northern Ireland. We have discussed all of this in terms of where we are legislating for different parts of the United Kingdom. I would like to reassure the shadow Minister, though, that Scotland does have a similar, separate power from this. It is not true that Scotland does not have this power; it does have it, but does not want it to be part of the framework in the Bill.
This is a measure that we believe is a safeguard. It is unlikely that we will ever seek to use it, but we have to have those safeguards, because were there to be a local authority that is not able to perform the requests that the Bill sets out, and were the Secretary of State or Ministers at some stage in the future of the view that the trading standards functions were not meeting the requirements of the Bill, there has to be some measure to allow Ministers to step in and try to fix that situation so that the measures in the Bill, and the robust enforcement that we expect from those, are applied consistently across the whole country.
Dr Johnson
The Minister says that it is similar in Scotland—I would be grateful if he could confirm whether that is related to individual cases or to a wider takeover of a failing Department. The Minister has talked a lot about the proportionality of the offences, fines, and punishments that can be chosen by trading standards, and he says that he trusts trading standards to ensure that that is proportional to the offence on each occasion. The concern is that the clauses would allow the Secretary of State to interfere with that by taking over the proceedings or the decision to enforce in a particular case, which would mean, for example, that if a Secretary of State was concerned that his best friend was running a shop and was about to get into trouble, he could intervene on the basis of this legislation and prevent that person from having proceedings. Likewise, if an Opposition politician was in the same situation, he could intervene to make proceedings much harder and harsher than they would normally have been.
Dr Johnson
I cannot give way, because I am intervening on the Minister. Does the Minister understand that concern?
Andrew Gwynne
I understand what the hon. Lady is trying to get at, but I started by saying, in answering her, that there have been no known cases of Ministers needing to take over the enforcement of tobacco and vapes regulations in England and Wales. These are an important safeguard in a probably never event—[Interruption.] She asks why we are doing it: we are doing it precisely so there is a safeguard and, in an extremely rare occasion that we might need to intervene, we are able to. It is not a power that we are seeking to use, nor do we want to use it, but it is an important safeguard. With that, I commend the clauses to the Committee.
Question put, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
Andrew Gwynne
I am grateful to the shadow Minister for bringing this discussion before the Committee today. Amendment 54 would provide that someone who commits the offence of selling tobacco, herbal smoking products or cigarette papers to someone under age in England and Wales, or the offence of purchasing these products on behalf of someone under age—proxy purchasing—cannot receive a fixed penalty notice when it is their first offence and they admit to committing the offence.
Amendment 55 would achieve a similar effect in Scotland. This amendment would ensure that someone who commits an offence of selling tobacco, herbal smoking products or cigarette papers to someone under age in Scotland, or commits a proxy purchasing offence or the offence of failing to operate an age verification policy, cannot receive a fixed penalty notice when it is their first offence and they admit to committing the offence.
The shadow Minister’s intention may be to establish greater leniency for first-time offenders by removing fixed penalty notices as an enforcement option. Or it may be that she just wishes for first-time offenders to potentially face criminal prosecution and higher fines. Nevertheless, we do not want to weaken the existing penalty regime or reduce enforcement options available to trading standards by creating exceptions for first-time offenders or anyone else who has committed these offences. We also do not want to risk causing confusion for trading standards officers, when it comes to utilising these fines, by creating different rules for first-time offenders.
The purpose of the fixed penalty notices is to enable trading standards to take enforcement actions against rogue offenders more quickly and easily. These on-the-spot fines avoid the need to take offenders through a time-consuming magistrates court process, and reduce the pressure on courts. When enforcing tobacco and vape legislation, trading standards takes a proportionate approach, choosing the appropriate action to take to achieve compliance. That typically starts, as we have discussed, with the issuing of warning letters, which is often effective in achieving compliance without the need to escalate to harsher penalties, such as prosecution and associated criminal fines, which are subsequently issued by a court on conviction. We do not want to remove the ability of trading standards to issue fixed penalty notices, including for first-time offenders, where that is viewed as a proportionate penalty for the particular case before them. It is for those reasons that, once more, I ask the shadow Minister to withdraw the amendments.
I now move on to clause 37, which amendment 54 seeks to amend. The clause introduces new fixed penalty notices in England and Wales to enable local authority trading standards to take quicker action by issuing on-the-spot fines to retailers in breach of regulations, instead of seeking a court prosecution. The fine will be £200—double the amount proposed in the same Bill when introduced by the previous Government. We will go further by enabling the use of the fixed penalty notice for a wider range of offences.
Trading standards officers will be able to issue a £200 fixed penalty notice for under-age sales, proxy purchases and free distribution of tobacco, vaping and nicotine product offences, as well as breaches of tobacco age of sale notice restrictions and breaches of display of products and price regulations made under this Bill. The value of the fixed penalty notice is reduced by 50% to £100 if paid within 14 days by the individual in question. This amount is proportionate and brings the value of the fixed penalty in England and Wales into closer alignment with the current similar values in Scotland and Northern Ireland and the £200 fixed monetary penalties for breaches of the single-use vapes ban. It was also the most popular value given by respondents to the Government’s public consultation.
A higher fixed penalty amount, set at level 4 on the standard scale—currently £2,500—will be available for licensing offences under clauses 17 and 20, in England and Wales, once respective licensing schemes are established through regulations. This higher value reflects the seriousness of these offences and will help the taking of action against rogue retailers.
Fixed penalty notices offer an individual the opportunity to avoid prosecution for an offence if they make a payment within a specified period. Existing fixed penalty notices already in place for proxy purchases of tobacco and vape products will be replaced by this new regime. A strong and proportionate approach to enforcement is vital to support the implementation of new tobacco and vape measures and put us on track to a smoke-free United Kingdom. Fixed penalty notices will complement our existing sanctions and strengthen the toolkit available to trading standards officers by allowing them to take swifter action to fine rogue retailers that breach certain regulations, including age of sale regulations. I therefore commend clause 37 to the Committee.
Dr Johnson
The Minister has reassured me that the trading standards officer fining someone breaching the regulations and the provisions of the Bill that are relevant has the capacity to issue warning letters to someone who they believe has committed such an offence inadvertently—someone who would otherwise wish to adhere to the law, but has made a simple mistake—and there is a range of other options, such as an FPN or prosecution itself, for the more reckless or persistent offender, so I will not press my amendments to a vote.
On clause 37 itself, can the Minister answer this question. People can repeatedly be issued with FPNs; if someone were issued with an FPN rather than being prosecuted, would that be recorded as a “relevant offence” under clause 23 or 28—on restricted premises orders and restricted sale orders—or could someone be recurrently getting an FPN and not be treated as a recurrent offender?
Andrew Gwynne
My apologies to the shadow Minister. The simple answer is no; paying a fixed penalty notice is an alternative to criminal prosecution. A person cannot be convicted of the offence if they pay the fixed penalty notice within the specified time.
Dr Johnson
I thank the Minister for that information. Does he therefore envisage situations in which an individual receives an FPN recurrently but is not treated as a recurrent offender?
Andrew Gwynne
That would be a matter for trading standards to judge, but one would expect that if somebody is a recurrent offender in that regard, trading standards may want to use the vast array of enforcement powers, including, ultimately, being taken through the court process, should that be appropriate. But that is entirely a matter for trading standards.
Dr Johnson
I think that could lead to a situation where the first offence is committed and trading standards gives the individual a warning letter because they believe the individual did not intend to commit it, the second offence is committed and an FPN is issued, the individual commits a third offence and gets another FPN, and so on. By the time we get to the fourth offence, the trading standards officers may get fed up with that individual and want to treat them as a recurrent offender but be unable to do so because they have technically never committed a relevant offence. Trading standards would then have to prosecute them for the next three offences over two years before they could treat them as a recurrent offender, which would delay the prosecution under the restricted premises or restricted persons order of an individual deliberately and recklessly selling age-restricted products to under-age people. Can the Minister consider whether someone receiving recurrent FPNs would be considered for the restricted sale order, perhaps at a higher threshold than prosecution?
Andrew Gwynne
The shadow Minister makes a valid point. I remind her, though, that there is an array of tools for trading standards to use. A fixed penalty notice is one; we have discussed and debated other measures to date. There is an entire toolbox of enforcement measures. I am not quite the Stalinist some might think; I trust trading standards to take the appropriate action given the circumstances. The Bill, hopefully soon to be an Act, will provide trading standards with an array of different measures, so that if they decide that someone is a persistent offender, they can go down a variety of different routes.
Dr Johnson
On that basis, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 37 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 38
Fixed penalties: use of proceeds
Gregory Stafford
I do not want to repeat too many points that other people have made. This a well-meaning, but ill thought-through amendment, as has been highlighted by the two hon. Members who spoke before me.
I was a local government councillor for 17 years, and served on many health and wellbeing boards. I do not recall them ever having a separate fund, so this would be a new innovation. It would not necessarily be an innovation without good intention, but using central Government legislation to enforce a completely new set of financial arrangements on local authorities could have a wider impact than those who have tabled these amendments have anticipated. The Minister, either in his summary or on Report, might find a way of achieving what those hon. Members want via other means, because clearly we would all want the moneys from continued enforcement to be used for things as close to health and public health improvements as possible. Will the Minister address that in his response?
Andrew Gwynne
I will first discuss the clause and then move on to the amendments. Clause 38 sets out how proceeds from the new fixed penalty notices in England and Wales must be used. I will also discuss the amendments that the hon. Member for Eastleigh has tabled on behalf of the Liberal Democrats.
The clause states that funds received from fixed penalty notices issues in relation to the licensing offences in the Bill must be returned to the relevant Consolidated Fund once the costs of investigating the offences and issuing the notice have been deducted. That will ensure that these fixed penalty notices remain cost-neutral and will not cause local authorities to incur additional cost burdens for enforcing a future licensing scheme. For all other offences, which carry a fixed penalty notice of £200, proceeds will be retained by local authorities and must be used in connection with their functions under this Bill, part 1 of the Health Act 2006, part 3 of the Public Health (Wales) Act 2017 and the Tobacco and Related Product Regulations 2016. That means that if local authority trading standards issue a fixed penalty notice—for example, to a retailer selling to someone under age—the local authority may retain the funds from the fixed penalty notice, and those funds must be used by the local authority to support the enforcement of tobacco and vape legislation. That will allow local authorities to cover the enforcement costs for issuing fixed penalty notices and to reinvest any remaining funds into their enforcement regimes.
The amendments to the clause proposed by the hon. Member for Eastleigh seek to ringfence the proceeds from the £2,500 fixed penalty notice for licensing offences for public health projects. They would achieve that by making it mandatory for any proceeds received by local authority trading standards from these fixed penalty notices to be allocated by local health and wellbeing boards to public health projects. Although I admire the hon. Lady’s ambition to further support public health—and who would not?—it would not be appropriate to enable local authorities to retain the fixed penalty notice proceeds in that way.
Councils already have a ringfenced budget for public health in England. The proceeds from the £2,500 fixed penalty notices for licensing offences were never intended as a revenue-generation mechanism. The fixed penalty notice is introduced to support the enforcement of the future licensing scheme and tobacco and vape sales regulations. It should continue to be the choice of trading standards officers to determine the appropriate enforcement action to take in a given case to achieve compliance. Enabling retention of fixed penalty notice proceeds for a different purpose risks distorting the operational priorities of the licensing scheme.
The £200 fixed penalty notice introduced by the Bill for offences such as under age sales are an exception. We worked carefully with His Majesty’s Treasury during the development of the Bill to enable trading standards to retain that relatively small value in order to support their procedures. To ensure that the future licensing scheme can be sustainably implemented, we have established that local authorities will be able to use the licensing fee to support them in covering the costs of administering and enforcing the licensing scheme, and that trading standards can deduct the costs of investigation and issuing fines from the FPN proceeds before returning the remainder to the Consolidated Fund.
My hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff West also mentioned the fact that the provision is not compliant with the reality of seeking to apply to both England and Wales, in that it makes specific reference to bodies that do not exist in Wales, namely the health and wellbeing boards, which only appertain to local authorities in England. I want to be clear that local authorities are receiving not just their public health grant but, in the financial year 2025-26, an additional £70 million from central Government and the Department of Health and Social Care to support local authority-led stop smoking services in England. We expect that investment will support our aim to help around 360,000 people to make quit attempts, and up to 198,000 successful quits a year.
Decisions for future years are subject to the spending review process, but that money, as the shadow Minister rightly pointed out, in part comes from the Consolidated Fund. So there is a virtuous circle of the kind that the hon. Member for Eastleigh rightly wants to see, in that there are direct correlations between money that my Department gets from His Majesty’s Treasury and money that the Treasury will get from not just those fixed penalty notices in the future, but other sources of income generation, including fines and penalties.
That money, in one form or another, almost certainly will be recycled into public health measures determined by Ministers and by Parliament and given to local authorities to determine how to spend at their local level. That could be through the public health grants, or through direct grants such as the smoking cessation or the drugs and alcohol grants that we make available to local authorities. But rest assured, there will be investment in public health, and that will come from money that my Department receives from His Majesty’s Treasury through the usual routes. With that, I ask the hon. Member for Eastleigh to withdraw her amendment.
Liz Jarvis
I will not be withdrawing the amendment.
Amendment 2 negatived.
Clause 38 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 39
Power to change amount of fixed penalties
Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
Andrew Gwynne
The hon. Lady makes a reasonable point. Wales is the only devolved Government to have a provision on handing over products to people who are underage. That is why the clause is framed in the way that it is, given the fine balance of reaching consensus across the devolved Administrations and England. Wales is the only devolved Government to have this provision.
Dr Johnson
I may have misheard the Minister, but I am not sure he explain why he does not think it is necessary in England.
Andrew Gwynne
We do not think that this power is necessary, nor did the Northern Ireland Executive or Scotland. Wales wishes to retain a power that it already has, and I think that is fair enough.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 40 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Schedule 5 agreed to.
Clause 41 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Schedules 6 and 7 agreed to.
Clause 42
Application of programmes of enforcement to old age of sale offences
Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
Andrew Gwynne
Clause 45 enables the Secretary of State by regulation to extend the provisions of part 1 to cover devices or parts of devices that allow tobacco products to be consumed. Clause 67 amends the Tobacco and Primary Medical Services (Scotland) Act 2010 to give the equivalent powers to Scottish Ministers. Clause 86 amends the Health and Personal Social Services (Northern Ireland) Order 1978 to give the equivalent power to Northern Ireland.
These provisions mean that any newly emerging device or current device, such as heated tobacco devices, could be covered in future. This future-proofs the Bill, will allow us to stay on top of tobacco control and will protect the public from the harms of tobacco. Before making any regulations under the clause, the relevant Ministers or Department will have a duty to consult. For amendments to part 1 of the Bill, the Secretary of State must obtain the consent of Welsh Ministers if those regulations would be within the legislative competence of the Act of the Senedd. I therefore commend these clauses to the Committee.
Dr Johnson
I believe this is the clause the Minister previously mentioned in relation to bongs. It is his desire to ensure that items used for illegal drugs, which are currently legal only on the basis that they are used for tobacco, will not need to be used once tobacco is not as available. I have a question relating to the age of sale, because tobacco has a rolling age of sale. Is he suggesting that, to put these provisions in place and make these items illegal—such as the bongs that he has referred to so forcefully in the past—the smoke free generation will need to reach the point where there are no members of the smoking generation left?
Andrew Gwynne
I am not sure whether anybody is listening in to the proceedings of this Committee—I am sure lots of people are; the hon. Member for Windsor said thousands—but I certainly think that somebody connected with the tobacco and vape shop on Strutton Ground is listening, because the said offending bong, which has been there for the six months that I have been Minister, seems to have disappeared from the shop window. That shows the power of the parliamentary processes—it is not just sad geeks who are listening in to the proceedings of this Bill—[Interruption.] Indeed, it might have been sold—I did start to wonder whether I had inadvertently been advertising said bong.
The supply of controlled drugs and any articles for administering and preparing controlled drugs is regulated under the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971. However, as I have flagged, some items that might be captured by this legislation are also being displayed and sold. That is how they are getting around the Act—under the premise that they are used for smoking tobacco—and that includes things such as pipes and bongs.
Dr Johnson
My understanding was that the Minister did not wish to restrict the use of tobacco products and other products covered by this Bill by those who are over the age of sale, whether that be the smoke-free generation date or the age of 18. Does he accept that if he brings in regulations under clause 45, it will potentially affect those who are currently buying tobacco legally? How will he ensure a balance between protecting our population from drugs, particularly illegal drugs, and maintaining the availability of tobacco for those to whom the Government have decided it should be available?
Andrew Gwynne
I quite accept the shadow Minister’s point. We are not making the purchase or consumption of tobacco or tobacco products illegal. What we are doing is ensuring that the next generation can never legally be sold tobacco or tobacco products. I do not wish to stray over old arguments, but as I said when the Committee debated clause 1 at length, Parliament is effectively saying to the tobacco industry, “This is it. This is as good as your market share is ever likely to be. We’re going to stop that conveyor belt, so new people don’t come along to replace those who are dropping off the other end as a consequence of your product. We will move hell for leather to shrink what little market base you now have still further through things like the stop smoking programme,” which we discussed under the previous clause.
I hope that the hon. Lady accepts that although we will absolutely allow people who currently smoke to continue smoking or using tobacco products until the day they die if they so wish—we will do all we can to wean them off that addiction, but if they want to, they will be able to—we will be preventing the next generation from ever getting hooked. That is the context for all these clauses.
The power that we are discussing in relation to clause 45 will only mean that the other parts of the Bill can be extended to include these products. That is an important factor. We are not banning these products; we are just covering them in measures such as the display powers that we are discussing. That is important. It will mean that if a bong is put in a shop window like the one on Strutton Ground, action can be taken not on the basis that it is drugs paraphernalia—heaven forbid, because that would be a breach under the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971—but because the said bong can be used to smoke tobacco. It will give us the powers, should we so wish, to include a variety of other products in the scope of the Bill so that they cannot be displayed. If they are not displayed, the chances are that the said shops will not be selling them.
Mr Barros-Curtis
I agree that clause 45 is really important, for reasons that have been discussed by Members on both sides of the Committee. As has been said throughout, the tobacco industry will find a way if we do not make these measures as watertight as possible. In respect of subsection (3), which relates to the devolved elements, can the Minister reassure me that in his conversations with the Welsh Ministers they have shared his zeal to ensure that these measures are as robust and future-proof as possible?
Andrew Gwynne
Absolutely. The working relationship between me and my officials in the Department of Health and Social Care and my ministerial counterparts across the three devolved Administrations and their officials in their respective Health Departments has been textbook. It has been exemplary. Not that I would do so with the Welsh Health Minister, but I could have my ten penn’orth of argument with some of the other devolved Administrations on a whole range of policy areas, yet when it comes to tackling the scourge of tobacco and vapes, the four Health Ministers are as one. That is why this is a landmark Bill.
The SNP Administration in Holyrood, the Northern Ireland Executive, who cover a rainbow of political parties in Northern Ireland, and the Labour Welsh Government in Cardiff Bay have given me the responsibility and power to act on their behalf. That is the Union in action. That is co-operation in action. That shows that devolution need not be a mechanism to pull us apart; where we are at one, it can be a mechanism to draw us together. I reassure my hon. Friend that the powers in the Bill have been shaped by the Welsh Health Minister, to every last full stop, and have the full support of the Government of Wales.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 45 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 46
Power to amend lists of identity documents
Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
Dr Johnson
One point to add is that individuals with certain disabilities may not have a driving licence, because their disability makes them ineligible to drive. The options available to them are quite substantially restricted, because most of the options on the list are forms of driving licence. Has the Minister assessed whether those with disabilities are more or less likely to have the documents listed, and is he happy that those with disabilities who wish to buy age-restricted products can do so?
Andrew Gwynne
We have already discussed at length the Government’s intentions to have a robust but workable system that does not overburden retailers, but enables them to have the confidence that the people to whom they are selling their products meet the required age of sale. I have already discussed and set out the reasons for the list of ID cards.
Of course, most of the forms of ID are things that most people have, or they are able to get a PASS ID card. Those are commonplace for people who are currently under the age of sale for a variety of products, and that is one form of ID that they can purchase if they do not have any other forms of ID. There is also the defence for retailers that they took all reasonable steps, which might involve their looking at a form of ID other than those set out in the legislation, such as veteran cards, which we have already spoken about at length. That remains the case.
I want to give a bit of background on how the list came about. My understanding is that in the previous incarnation of the Bill there was not a list of forms of ID. That came in for criticism by the then Bill Committee, which thought that there ought to be a list. That is how we have ended up with the list that we have now.
Dr Johnson
Is the Minister suggesting that if a shop worker or retailer selling an age-restricted product to an individual saw a form of ID that is not listed in part 3 but which they were convinced was a real and genuine certification of age, they could use that instead?
Andrew Gwynne
That is the reasonable defence that we have already discussed under earlier provisions of the Bill.
Dr Johnson
So why is a list necessary? Why not just say “as long as they have taken reasonable steps to get the ID”?
Andrew Gwynne
If the hon. Lady lets me finish my contribution, she might get an answer that she likes. I have already had discussions with my officials about how we have less ambiguity in relation to the ID. The list was put in for the reasons that I stated. The previous iteration of the Bill did not have a list and was criticised by members of the then Bill Committee because it was too vague. We will perhaps come back at a later stage with an amended proposal.
I hope the hon. Lady recognises that her point has been made very well and that my officials and I are in full listening mode. We hope to reassure members of this Committee, probably on Report, that we can strengthen this element of the Bill—we do not want to weaken it—so that there is no ambiguity over ID. We will have a robust mechanism for retailers so that they have confidence in what is and is not an acceptable form of ID. We will get this right. I am determined that we will get these measures right and that they will be enforceable.
On the ability to add or remove from the list, should that be necessary, it will be future-proofed. However we define the requirements on identification, whether it is as it currently stands or as it changes, the way we do ID will change. In my relatively short lifetime—I am only 50—technology has moved on apace and forms of identification have changed. Who knows how things might change over the next 50 years? We have future-proofed much in the Bill against the tobacco and vaping industry being able to find another route through to sell its goods to the next generation. We are putting roadblocks in place for all those mechanisms. We also need to make sure that the enforcement mechanisms are fit for purpose for the future.
I hope I can reassure the hon. Member for Farnham and Bordon that the intention is not to make it easier to escape the ID requirements or make it harder for people to prove that they are of legal age. Perhaps, at some stage, certain ID mechanisms will become obsolete and we will need to remove them, but this is about adding new ID to the list so that as new forms of identification become available that we have not even thought of, the Bill will be future-proof. We are not restricting ID to passports and drivers’ licences that we might not even have in 50 years’ time. I hope the hon. Member accepts that explanation, and I hope that Members understand that we are in listening mode. We are looking at what constitutes applicable ID, so that clarity will be there for the retail industry on what applies and what does not.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 46 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Ordered, That further consideration be now adjourned. —(Taiwo Owatemi.)
Tuesday 21st January 2025
(1 year, 6 months ago)
Public Bill CommitteesTobacco and Vapes Act 2026 Read Hansard Text Amendment Paper: Public Bill Committee Amendments as at 21 January 2025 - (21 Jan 2025)
The Committee divided: - Ayes: 16 / Noes: 1 - Question accordingly agreed to.
The Committee divided: - Ayes: 3 / Noes: 13 - Question accordingly negatived.
The Committee divided: - Ayes: 3 / Noes: 11 - Question accordingly negatived.
The Committee divided: - Ayes: 3 / Noes: 13 - Question accordingly negatived.
The Committee divided: - Ayes: 3 / Noes: 13 - Question accordingly negatived.
The Committee divided: - Ayes: 3 / Noes: 11 - Question accordingly negatived.
The Committee divided: - Ayes: 3 / Noes: 11 - Question accordingly negatived.
The Committee divided: - Ayes: 3 / Noes: 11 - Question accordingly negatived.
The Committee divided: - Ayes: 2 / Noes: 13 - Question accordingly negatived.
The Committee divided: - Ayes: 2 / Noes: 13 - Question accordingly negatived.
The Committee divided: - Ayes: 2 / Noes: 13 - Question accordingly negatived.
The Committee divided: - Ayes: 2 / Noes: 13 - Question accordingly negatived.
The Committee divided: - Ayes: 2 / Noes: 13 - Question accordingly negatived.
The Committee divided: - Ayes: 2 / Noes: 13 - Question accordingly negatived.
The Committee divided: - Ayes: 2 / Noes: 13 - Question accordingly negatived.
The Committee divided: - Ayes: 3 / Noes: 13 - Question accordingly negatived.
The Committee divided: - Ayes: 3 / Noes: 13 - Question accordingly negatived.
This text is a record of ministerial contributions to a debate held as part of the Tobacco and Vapes Act 2026 passage through Parliament.
In 1993, the House of Lords Pepper vs. Hart decision provided that statements made by Government Ministers may be taken as illustrative of legislative intent as to the interpretation of law.
This extract highlights statements made by Government Ministers along with contextual remarks by other members. The full debate can be read here
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
Jack Rankin
I thank the hon. Member for providing that clarity. That is good to hear, but it is important to put on the record that we in this House should apply the same rules to ourselves as we apply to our constituents.
Again, as a non-lawyer, I ask the Minister for some clarification on the implications of the non-criminal liability of the Crown in clause 47(2) and how that sits alongside the reference to
“persons in the service of the Crown”
in subsection (4). What I am seeking is consistency between what applies in the real world and what applies to the Crown. Perhaps the Minister could say what that provision means in laymen’s terms, so that I can say to my constituents that what we are applying to them also applies to us.
I want to add to the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Farnham and Bordon. If you will forgive me, Sir Roger, I will be a bit parochial to illustrate the point. I said earlier that the Crown is quite a nebulous concept for a legislator, and where it begins and ends is difficult to understand. It is often taken to mean the state more broadly, but I have another example, from my constituency. Windsor Great Park is Crown Estate—the arm’s length Government body that the House has been legislating on in the past weeks—but the castle itself is owned and managed by the royal household. In my casework and when dealing with stakeholders, I often find that different rules apply to the Crown Estate and the royal household. The royal household seems to have much more personal control from the monarch, whereas the Crown Estate is very much run by the trustees, effectively on behalf of the Treasury.
It would be good to understand what we mean when we talk about the Crown. It is clear from my hon. Friend the shadow Minister’s remarks that we are talking about the palaces, but it would be good to know whether the clause applies to all these different arms of the British state in some way, shape or form, or whether other provisions apply to them.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Care (Andrew Gwynne)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Roger. I am grateful to hon. Members for their questions on these clauses, which are entirely technical and appertain to the treatment of the Crown in relation to the measures in the Bill. They follow a general Crown application, being broadly similar to, and mirroring pretty closely, the way other Acts of Parliament deal with the Crown. I am not sure whether the fact we have spent more than half an hour debating them shows Parliament at its best or at its niggliest, but we are having the debate none the less.
Gregory Stafford
I take the Minister’s point that the clauses are technical, but if we are not here to ensure that legislation is drafted correctly and appropriately, what are we here for?
Andrew Gwynne
We are here to ensure that the Bill gets on the statute book. I was under the impression—perhaps the misapprehension—that at least the two Opposition Front Benchers, the hon. Members for Farnham and Bordon and for Sleaford and North Hykeham, were supportive of the measures in the Bill. If so, we seem to have spent an extraordinary amount of time discussing matters that do not really affect the Bill, except in relation to the Crown.
Andrew Gwynne
Perhaps the hon. Lady will let me finish. The measures are standard practice for any Bill, but Members have put some questions to me, so I will reassure them about some of the issues they have raised. But before doing so, I will give way to the shadow Minister, who has had plenty of time to talk about this matter.
Dr Johnson
I thank the Minister for giving way. I want to echo the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Farnham and Bordon that the purpose of line-by-line scrutiny is to do just that: to go through the Bill line by line. The Minister’s job might be to get things on the statute book for his Prime Minister and Cabinet and for the Government in which he serves, but surely he wishes to ensure that the Bill he is leading on is in the best possible condition. That is the purpose of the line-by-line scrutiny that we are in Committee to do.
Andrew Gwynne
I absolutely do with that. The point I am making is that we have just over another week to deal with these matters. If we get to the end of next week not having considered important chunks of the Bill because we have wasted time on silly little matters that appertain not only to the whole of this legislation, but to other legislation as well, and on fairly standard clauses relating to how legislation deals with the Crown, that will be on His Majesty’s loyal Opposition.
I will make progress and answer the points that were made. Why are clauses 47 and 137 necessary parts of the Bill? The presumption is that legislation does not apply to the Crown unless expressly stated as doing so. The clauses clarify that provisions in parts 1 and 6 of the Bill, and in the regulations made under them, bind the Crown. They ensure that all bodies and persons acting as public servants of the Crown are held to the same standards as businesses and private citizens in England and Wales. They ensure consistent application of the Bill across the public and private sectors.
Does the Bill bind Parliament? Yes, it does. Parliament was consulted and was content with clause 159, in particular, being included. We have already had the debate about snuff, and it will be up to the House authorities to determine the rules of the House. There is absolutely nothing to prevent there being a box at the entrance to the Chamber with the latest chief Doorkeeper’s name engraved on it—that tradition can remain for evermore—just as we have a Smoking Room, which we can no longer smoke in but which is still called the Smoking Room. That is tradition. I really do not know why Members are overthinking these matters.
Members asked why there are differences between Crown applications in the devolved Administrations. As we have already discussed, the Bill brings together legislation from across the four nations. I believe it is a triumph, because it shows the close working relationship between the Labour Government and the devolved Administrations, irrespective of the parties in power in Cardiff Bay, Holyrood and Belfast. Because health is a devolved matter, and because the Bill builds on legislation dating back nearly 100 years in some cases, there are some differences in the provisions for each nation.
Members asked why only some parts of the Bill apply to the Crown. The fact is that clauses 47 and 134 explicitly provide that parts 1 and 6, and any regulations made under them, apply to the Crown. Other measures in the Bill also apply to the Crown without the Bill’s explicitly stating so because those provisions amend existing legislation, and the Crown application reflects whether the underlying legislation applies to the Crown.
There is an established precedent that smoke-free places legislation does not apply to the Crown in England and Wales, and that it is the responsibility of the Department responsible for running the relevant part of the Crown Estate to determine what is appropriate. That is precisely what the House of Commons did when it determined that the smoking ban would apply to the royal Palace of Westminster. The same is true of all the measures in the Bill.
Members asked which parts of the Bill will apply to the Crown. Part 1 and regulations made under it apply to the Crown by virtue of clause 47.
The hon. Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham asked about Northern Ireland. Part 3 amends existing legislation in Northern Ireland, and it does not apply to the Crown. That is an existing precedent, which the Department of Health in Northern Ireland wishes to retain. Part 2 amends the existing legislation in Scotland and part 1 amends the legislation in England and Wales. That is why there is a different approach to different parts of the United Kingdom in respect of the Crown.
Members asked why we need clause 66, the technical clause relating to the Scottish Government. It is because it corrects an omission in the Tobacco and Primary Medical Services (Scotland) Act 2010, and it is being made at the request of the Scottish Government. It is a convention that in an Act of the Scottish Parliament those responsible for the enforcement of the legislation are explicitly identified as being able to make an application to the Court of Session for the purposes outlined in the clause. Scottish Ministers may take over enforcement under the 2010 Act, so it is appropriate that they are listed alongside local authorities, which is what clause 66 achieves. The clause inserts a provision into the 2010 Act, which is Scottish law. There are no impacts on the law in England, Wales or Northern Ireland. The clause is narrow and relates only to provisions in part 1 of the 2010 Act.
Members asked about overburdening the court. We are working the Ministry of Justice to ensure that the Bill does not introduce a significant burden. This is about regulatory change—and, look, most citizens are law abiding and will follow the law.
Question put, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
Andrew Gwynne
I thank the shadow Minister for the points she has raised. Definitions are needed to ensure that the legislation can be interpreted with an appropriate understanding of the technical terms, and we have opted to take a co-ordinated approach to definitions across the four nations, which will hopefully ensure clarity for the public, retailers and enforcers.
As we know, nicotine is a highly addictive drug, particularly for adolescents whose brains are still developing. As mentioned in the Bill, a nicotine product means any device, part of a device, or substance containing nicotine that is intended to deliver nicotine to the human body. There are currently no age of sale or advertising restrictions for products such as nicotine pouches—and, unlike vapes, there are no set nicotine limits. Nicotine strengths can vary from 2 mg per pouch to, in some cases, 150 mg or more. Like vapes, they can come in a variety of flavours and colourful packaging designed to appeal to children. The use of nicotine products such as nicotine pouches is increasing, particularly among young men. As we are committed to doing everything we can to protect children from becoming addicted to nicotine, it is only right to take action to control these products.
Dr Johnson
On the point about nicotine pouches, it is of concern that they may be the next way in which this industry seeks to make our young people addicted to nicotine. We have seen in places such as Sweden a plethora of these products, which are now expanding across the UK as well. I know the Minister will be looking at some proposals to restrict the amount of nicotine in the pouches. When he does so, will he consider not just how much nicotine is in them compared with a cigarette, but how much is absorbed into the body? The amount in a cigarette that is absorbed as a proportion is much lower than that of a nicotine pouch.
Andrew Gwynne
Those are important considerations for when we are developing the regulations, and I take precisely the same view as the shadow Minister. These things have to be part of that overall analysis and equation when we come to look carefully at the regulations.
The shadow Minister asked a number of questions. First, she asked whether a provisional driving licence would be applicable, and the simple answer is that it would. She also asked whether there is a loophole here with medicinal products, and whether children could be restricted from purchasing vaping substances for a future vape that may have medicinal approvals. Of course, it is important to point out to the Committee that to date no such vape exists. As per all licensed medicines, if one existed, it would be regulated by medicine regulations, which are subject to higher standards set by the MHRA.
The health advice is that nicotine replacement treatment, for example, is most effective when provided alongside expert advice. That is really important, and that is why we are putting money into smoking cessation services and why measures in the Bill will permit the distribution of free vapes by the NHS and public health authorities; we think that is entirely appropriate.
There is no age of sale restriction for nicotine replacement therapies. In extreme circumstances, for example, were there a MHRA-approved vaping device that met the criteria of a medical device, I suppose the vaping liquid could be prescribed to a child if that were appropriate. That is all hypothetical because there is not such a device approved by the MHRA; therefore, there is not the loophole the hon. Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham thinks there might be, although she is right to raise it.
Dr Johnson
To clarify the point about there being no device available, that had been my understanding as well, but Dr Laura Squire from the MHRA said in evidence to the Committee that in 2015 a vape had been approved for medical use, but had never been marketed. Has the licence for that product lapsed in some way so that it is no longer available?
Andrew Gwynne
I do not know, but I will ensure the Committee is informed by officials. My point is that it is not marketed. Therefore, there is no medical device on the UK market, and all that is currently hypothetical. We have to legislate for the future, which is why I said that nicotine replacement therapy is the most appropriate form of treatment for children. Were there a device at some stage in the future that was available for the NHS to use in a medical context—as opposed to swap to stop—then it would be appropriate for a doctor to be able to prescribe that should they wish to. However, that would be within a highly regulated medical setting, as opposed to just getting liquids from a vape shop.
Dr Johnson
Clauses 48 and 49 exempt the medicinal product and medical devices. I understand why the Minister has done that, but how is he going to ensure that the industry does not find ways of making the nicotine replacement products that are currently legal and used only for medical purposes lemonade, gummy bear or unicorn milk-flavoured, and therefore attractive to children? The Committee has heard repeatedly about the way the industry behaves.
Andrew Gwynne
We absolutely have thought about that, which is why the measures in the Bill and the powers it gives to Ministers across the jurisdictions of the United Kingdom enable regulations to be made to ensure that we always keep up with where the industry is going and—importantly—where the evidence is going. This is not just about where the industry might go; it may be that at some stage in the future there is new medical research showing that even the levels we are talking about lowering to have safety issues, and we will need to react to that.
That is why I will defend the way the Bill has been drafted, ensuring that Ministers will be able, at any stage in the future, to return to Parliament or the devolved legislatures to seek changes to secondary legislation to ensure that the measures are always relevant to the circumstances of the day.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 48 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 49 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
The Chair
I apologise to the Committee; this is quite complex, even by my standards. Amendments 25 to 31 were debated under clause 1. The lead amendment, which was similar, was negatived by the Committee on a Division, and so I am not selecting them for a separate Division. That is in my gift.
Amendment proposed: 67, in clause 50, page 25, line 34, at end insert—
“(ba) in subsection (5), at end insert “, save if it is a first offence.”
(bb) after subsection (5) insert—
‘(5A) A person who has admitted guilt of a first offence under subsection (1) is liable to a fine not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale or a recorded police warning.’”—(Dr Johnson.)
This amendment prevents penalties for a first offence of selling tobacco products to person under 18 in Scotland being a fine not beyond level 3 and provides for a discretionary recorded police warning.
Question put, That the amendment be made.
Andrew Gwynne
In answer to the shadow Minister, clause 52 will repeal the offence for someone under the age of 18 in Scotland of buying or attempting to buy a tobacco product or cigarette papers. It means that it will no longer be an offence for someone under the age of 18 to buy or attempt to buy those products in Scotland. That is because Scotland is the only part of the United Kingdom in which it is an offence for those under 18 to purchase tobacco products. The repeal will align the legal approach across the whole United Kingdom. It is being done after consultation and with the full consent of the Scottish Government. With the change to the age of sale, it was no longer deemed necessary to retain this provision, as the age-of-sale restrictions apply to the sale and not the purchase of tobacco products.
Clause 53 will repeal the power for constables in Scotland to confiscate tobacco products or cigarette papers from someone in a public place whom they suspect to be under 18. Both provisions were originally made in the Tobacco and Primary Medical Services (Scotland) Act 2010. Repealing them will ensure that legislation in Scotland is in line with legislation in England, Wales and Northern Ireland. With the change to the age of sale, it was no longer considered necessary to retain the provision, as age-of-sale restrictions apply to the sale and not the purchase of tobacco products. As we have already debated, that will ensure that we do not criminalise children.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 52 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 53 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 54
Extension of tobacco legislation to herbal smoking products
Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
Dr Johnson
Clause 54 will extend tobacco legislation to cover herbal smoking products, which are products made from plant material and intended for smoking that do not contain tobacco. It will amend section 4 of the Tobacco and Primary Medical Services (Scotland) Act, which governs the sale of tobacco products to individuals under 18, by inserting “herbal smoking product” after “tobacco product” in subsection (1). This will mean that the sale of herbal smoking products is subject to the same restrictions as tobacco products and is prohibited to persons under 18.
The clause will also amend section 4C of the 2010 Act, which deals with the sale of tobacco-related products by persons under 18, by adding “herbal smoking product” so that individuals under 18 are also prohibited from selling herbal smoking products. This is distinct from the ability to buy them, for which there will be a rolling age; it applies to the selling of these products.
The clause will also modify section 6 of the Act, which addresses the purchase of tobacco products on behalf of individuals under 18, otherwise known as proxy purchasing. It will amend subsection (1) by inserting “herbal smoking product” after “tobacco product”, making it illegal for anyone to purchase herbal smoking products on behalf of individuals under 18.
Finally, the clause will insert into section 35 a definition for herbal smoking products. This was covered in clause 48 and clause 1; clause 54 will add it to Scottish legislation. It specifies that a herbal smoking product is one that is made entirely or partially of vegetable matter and that is intended to be smoked, but that does not contain tobacco. Given our previous debate, these seem reasonable changes to make.
Andrew Gwynne
I will not detain the Committee on this question. As the shadow Minister says, these are reasonable changes to make and are in line with the clauses that we have just discussed.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 54 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clauses 55 to 57 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 58
Possession of snus etc with intent to supply
Amendment proposed: 70, in clause 58, page 29, line 19, at end insert
“, save if it is a first offence.”—(Dr Johnson.)
See explanatory statement to Amendment 72.
Question put, That the amendment be made.
Dr Johnson
Clause 65 introduces schedule 9, which will amend the Tobacco and Primary Medical Services (Scotland) Act 2010 to broaden the scope of the retailer register and make related provisions to include herbal smoking products, vaping products and nicotine products, alongside tobacco. The amendments that it makes aim to regulate businesses that sell those products in a similar way to tobacco products.
Essentially, in schedule 9, the key changes are as follows. There will be an expansion of the register: section 10 of the 2010 Act will be amended to require the Scottish Ministers to maintain a register of businesses that are selling tobacco, herbal smoking products, vaping products and nicotine products. It will ensure that all those categories are subject to the same regulatory framework as respects the register.
There is clarification within the schedule of a “registrable business”, which is now defined to include any businesses dealing with tobacco, herbal smoking, vaping or nicotine products. The term is used throughout the Act, ensuring that all relevant businesses are captured under the regulations.
The amendments that schedule 9 will make to section 11 of the 2010 Act require applicants to specify which type of registrable business they intend to operate at each premises —essentially, which products they wish to sell. Can the Minister confirm that that means that some businesses could register to sell some products but not others under the Act? Perhaps they could sell tobacco products but not nicotine products, or vice versa. The registration process will be updated to reflect those additions.
Section 12 of the 2010 Act, which deals with certifications and notifications, will be amended to require certificates of registration to specify the type of product that a business sells. Additionally, under section 13, businesses must notify the Scottish Ministers of any changes, such as if they no longer desire to sell a specific type of registrable product. The Act’s provisions concerning banning orders, offences and public inspection of the register will be updated to reflect the inclusion of herbal smoking products, vaping products and nicotine products alongside tobacco products.
In addition, schedule 9 will add new definitions, including of “herbal smoking product business” and “nicotine product business”, ensuring clarity in the application of the law.
Andrew Gwynne
I welcome the shadow Minister’s comments. Of course, health is a devolved matter. Scotland has a long-established and functioning register of tobacco and nicotine vape product retailers. The Bill will expand Scotland’s registration scheme to include retailers selling herbal smoking products and nicotine products. The Scottish Government’s view is that introducing a licensing scheme at this time would put undue pressure on local authorities and the retail sector in Scotland. In line with the Scottish Government’s tobacco and vaping framework, the technical infrastructure of the register is being improved, which has been welcomed by stakeholders. Each of the nations of the United Kingdom is taking forward an approach that best suits its population.
Dr Johnson
Clause 84 is a short clause that extends the retail register provisions in Northern Ireland. It states:
“Schedule 10 amends the Tobacco Retailers Act (Northern Ireland) 2014 (c. 4 (N.I.)) to extend certain provisions about the registration of tobacco retailers so that they apply in relation to retailers of vaping products and nicotine products.”
Schedule 10 ensures that retailers selling tobacco products, herbal smoking products and cigarette papers are covered by the scheme.
Andrew Gwynne
As the shadow Minister says, the clause extends the existing registration scheme by expanding it to businesses that sell relevant products. The register will be expanded while the new licensing regulations are introduced, ensuring a stronger and consistent enforcement regime at all times.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 84 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Schedule 10 agreed to.
Clause 85 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Schedules 11 to 13 agreed to.
Clauses 86 and 87 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Schedule 14 and 15 agreed to.
Clause 88 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 89
Power of officer of Revenue and Customs to seize and detain snus etc
Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
Dr Johnson
Clause 89 is such an important clause in that it forms a whole part of the Bill, part 4, by itself; whereas other parts contain multiple clauses, part 4 only contains clause 89. The clause deals with the power of a Revenue and Customs official to seize and detain snus, which the Bill defines as an oral tobacco product that
“is not intended to be inhaled or chewed”.
Hon. Members will remember that snus is a tobacco product that the Bill treats differently from all other tobacco products; there is a much heftier penalty for sale and a complete ban on manufacture. In line with the fact that it is dealt with differently from other tobacco products and that it will be illegal to manufacture and import, there needs to be provision for customs officials to deal with the snus if they find it.
Subsection (1) allows a Revenue and Customs officer to
“seize any relevant oral tobacco products that have been imported and detain them for no more than 48 hours.”
I presume that 48 hours is standard; the Minister may be able to expand on that. Any products seized and detained under this clause
“must be dealt with during their period of detention in such manner as the Commissioners for His Majesty’s Revenue and Customs may direct…For the purposes of calculating the 48-hour period mentioned…any period falling on a non-working day is to be disregarded.”
The Minister will be able to confirm, but I presume that is essentially saying that, if a product were seized on a Friday at 4.50 pm, they would get all of Saturday and Sunday and until late on the Tuesday to deal with the snus and would be able to seize it for that period.
The clause says that non-working days are Saturdays, Sundays and bank holidays; that is fairly straightforward. A relevant offence is an offence under clause 9 of the Bill in England and Wales, section 9C of the Tobacco and Primary Medical Services (Scotland) Act 2010, which is inserted by the Bill, and article 4G of the Health and Personal Social Services (Northern Ireland) Order 1978, which is also inserted by the Bill.
Dr Johnson
My hon. Friend is right to probe the Minister on those questions. It is important to understand why things are chosen. The Minister has sometimes referred to things being chosen because that is the way they were before, but the writing of new primary legislation offers a not-frequent opportunity to change things that may not be working very well. When items are seized at the moment, is the Minister’s advice from his civil servants that 48 hours is an adequate period of time in which to deal with all the paperwork that presumably needs to be done? Is it too long, and could it be shorter if it needed to be?
The commissioners for His Majesty’s Revenue and Customs are responsible for dealing with the relevant oral tobacco product during the period of detention, but that will not prevent the importation of snus for personal use. Can the Minister explain why that is the case?
Andrew Gwynne
It is not illegal to consume snus in the UK—I got told off for pronouncing that in Mancunian as “snuss” earlier, but each to their own—or to possess it for personal use. Clause 89 is that is intended to form part of a robust legislative framework in relation to oral tobacco products, and specifically helps to enforce other provisions of the Bill that prohibit possession with intent to supply in the course of business. It is common practice for customs officials to seize suspected illicit goods at the border. That will now also be applicable to snus products imported into the UK. The 48-hour period is standard practice, but after 48 hours the enforcement agency is able to decide on what action it wishes to take. I hope that answers the points raised by the shadow Minister and the hon. Member for Farnham and Bordon.
Dr Johnson
I want to understand how a customs official would make such a decision. The Minister has been clear that it is not illegal to possess snus—I hope I pronounced that properly—for personal use. However, it is an offence to manufacture it under clause 7, to sell it or offer it for sale under clause 8 or to possess it with intent to supply under clause 9. How would the Minister quantify an amount for personal use? Under ordinary circumstances, one could say—
Tuesday 21st January 2025
(1 year, 6 months ago)
Public Bill CommitteesTobacco and Vapes Act 2026 Read Hansard Text Amendment Paper: Public Bill Committee Amendments as at 21 January 2025 - (21 Jan 2025)
The Committee divided: - Ayes: 16 / Noes: 1 - Question accordingly agreed to.
This text is a record of ministerial contributions to a debate held as part of the Tobacco and Vapes Act 2026 passage through Parliament.
In 1993, the House of Lords Pepper vs. Hart decision provided that statements made by Government Ministers may be taken as illustrative of legislative intent as to the interpretation of law.
This extract highlights statements made by Government Ministers along with contextual remarks by other members. The full debate can be read here
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
Dr Caroline Johnson (Sleaford and North Hykeham) (Con)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship this afternoon, Mr Dowd.
As we discussed before the adjournment, clause 89 forms part of part 4 of the Bill. It provides the power to Revenue and Customs officers to seize and detain snus. We talked briefly about the time of detention being 48 hours. I was about to ask how one would decide that the amount was suitable to seize.
Clauses 7, 8 and 9 already provide for snus. Clause 7 bans UK manufacture. Clause 8 bans sales in the UK, but not where people buy it abroad or online and import it. Clause 9 covers the possession of snus with intent to supply, but does not give any indication of what sort of volume one would anticipate could lead to supply.
I am aware that when it comes to some illegal drugs, there is a rough and ready reckoning of how much would be considered as being possession with intent to supply and how much as being for personal use. It may be more complicated in this case, however, because the personal use of this product, which it is legal to import, will affect how often one wishes to import it.
For example, it is unlikely that someone who is importing snus for their own personal use would need to make an import on a daily or perhaps even weekly basis. Some people may decide that they are going to do it monthly or annually, which may mean that they are importing quite a sizeable amount that some customs officials may consider as not for personal use, but for supply.
Could the Minister indicate how it will be decided what counts as personal use and how people can prove that? We do not want a loophole that allows people to use this dangerous product.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Care (Andrew Gwynne)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship once more, Mr Dowd.
These are of course operational matters for customs officials who already utilise the powers that they have been given in a variety of different forms of legislation. It is common practice for customs officials to seize illicit goods at the border, irrespective of what those illicit goods are. That will now apply to snus.
Border Force officials will decide on a case-by-case basis—on the evidence in front of them in any particular case and on the intelligence that they might have—whether the goods that they have seized are likely to be for personal use. I imagine that given the quantities that would likely be needed, in the case of seizing illicit goods, we would be talking about large quantities of a product that clearly would not be for personal consumption. It would therefore not be unreasonable for Border Force officials to come to the conclusion that the illicit goods that they have seized may well be sold on, which is illegal.
Andrew Gwynne
I will not. That is pretty clear.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 89 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 90
Retail packaging
Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
Andrew Gwynne
The clause provides the Secretary of State with powers to make regulations about the retail packaging of vaping, tobacco and nicotine products, as well as cigarette papers and herbal smoking products. It also covers tobacco-related devices. For instance, regulations made under this power could restrict the appearance of packaging, as well as what information is provided on it, its shape and its texture.
Although vapes can be an effective quit aid for adult smokers, vaping is never recommended for children. It risks addiction and unknown long-term health impacts while their lungs and brain are still developing. Despite that clear health advice, there has been a significant and alarming rise in the number of children vaping. There are also reports of increased use of nicotine pouches among children and adolescents. That increased use is partly due to the blatant marketing of vapes to children through brightly coloured packaging and the use of child-friendly images such as cartoons. That is an unacceptable practice that the Government intend to stop.
We have seen the effectiveness of standardising tobacco packaging for youth smoking rates, and the evidence tells us that reduced brand imagery can decrease the appeal of products to children. This clause will allow us to make changes such as banning the use of cartoon characters on packaging and regulating the colours that can be used. The clause also replaces existing regulation-making powers for tobacco packaging, so that the power to regulate all the relevant products is in a single piece of legislation. I therefore commend this clause to the Committee.
Dr Johnson
Clause 90 is in part 5, on product and information requirements, and deals with the retail packaging of various products. Clause 90(1) grants the Secretary of State the authority to make regulations concerning the retail packaging of tobacco products, tobacco-related devices, herbal smoking products, cigarette papers, vaping products and nicotine products. This is one provision where tobacco-related devices are included; they have not been previously, in most clauses. The packaging is of the device, which may be supplied separately from a refill, so that is an important addition.
Clause 90(2) specifies that the regulations may include
“prohibitions, requirements or limitations in relation to the production, importation or supply of such products in the course of business.”
That is relevant because a quick search on the internet reveals that although quite a lot of things are prohibited in the UK, including different forms of cigarettes—those with branded packaging, coloured cigarettes and the like—and they may not be legal to sell in this country, it is perfectly possible to go on to a website, buy them in British pounds and have them supplied to one’s home, so there is a clear loophole that needs to be considered.
Subsection (3) outlines particular aspects that the regulations may cover, including the markings on packaging, such as the use of branding, trademarks and logos. I think the use of the word “logo” is key, because if I were to draw a pair of golden arches, people would know what I meant without my needing to write “McDonald’s” next to them, or if I did a little tick, people would know what I meant before I said that it was for Nike. The same is true of various logos, such as for Amazon and others, where the picture has become so well known that the name of the brand is not required to identify it. There is actually a board game that people can buy for their kids to test how good they are at identifying logos. Clearly, brand marketers are very aware of the use of shapes—as well as just the name—for identifying their products.
It is also possible to regulate the information provided on packaging or otherwise supplied with a product and the appearance of packaging. We have seen pretty coloured packaging and packaging designed to entice children with its texture, size and shape. I have seen vape holders that are teddy bear-shaped, so that while someone is not using their vape, they can put it in a teddy bear that comes in a range of colours. They are available on Etsy. It is even possible to regulate the means by which packaging is opened.
Those are useful powers for the Secretary of State to take, but only if he uses them. If he takes them and does not provide any regulations at all, they are worse than useless. Can the Minister explain the timescale in which he expects to perform any consultation required to introduce regulations to the House?
In addition, subsection (3) allows the Secretary of State to address in his or her regulations any packaging features that could distinguish between different brands, the number of individual products in a packet or the quantity of a product in a packet. Products then become standardised items that are less attractive, particularly to children. Subsection (4) specifies that any regulations made under the clause will be subject to the affirmative resolution procedure, meaning that they must be approved by Parliament before coming into force.
The regulations proposed as a result of the Secretary of State’s powers under the clause will build on previous regulations on shape and packaging. We are all aware that the shape, size and appearance of packaging has changed over our lifetimes. Indeed, on 20 May 2016 the UK implemented the Tobacco and Related Products Regulations 2016—the TRPRs—following the European Union’s tobacco products directive 2014/40/EU. The TRPRs form part of the current regulations retained as EU law after Brexit, and they contain a comprehensive set of rules for the regulation of nicotine-containing e-cigarettes and related products, often referred to as vapes.
The TRPRs introduced several important product standards for nicotine-containing vapes, which marked a turning point in how those products are perceived and controlled. Notably, they placed limits on the nicotine strength allowed in e-liquids, restricted the size of refill bottles and tanks, and mandated specific health warnings on the packaging. The packaging requirements were introduced to ensure that customers were fully informed of the risks associated with using nicotine products.
Again, placing the new regulations on top of the old ones will work only if they are properly enforced, and we have all seen examples of them not being properly enforced or followed. Under the current Tobacco and Related Products Regulations, nicotine-containing products such as e-cigarettes and e-liquids are required to carry a mandatory health warning on their packaging. However, the law allows significant flexibility on the colour, shape, style and types of branding used on those products, as we can see in the adverts when we walk down the street. Some of them are smooth-shaped, some are sharp, and some are shaped like SpongeBob SquarePants or teddy bears. There are also various flavours, although we will come to flavours later. The colours, branding and shapes are all part of the advertising to try to make the products attractive to users, and in some cases particularly to children.
The approach to vapes under the current regulations is in stark contrast to the stringent requirements already in place for tobacco packaging, which is covered by the Standardised Packaging of Tobacco Products Regulations 2015. The regulations maintain that cigarettes and hand-rolling tobacco packaging must be plain, with no branding, logos or colours that could attract potential smokers. The stark difference between tobacco and vape packaging raises important questions about how best to protect young people from the growing appeal of vaping products, which are still seen by many as a safer alternative to traditional cigarettes. We must be clear that they may be safer for smokers, but not for children or people who do not smoke.
It is important to understand the context behind clause 90. Before we had formal packaging regulations, cigarettes were sold with little to no concern for public health. Tobacco companies focused primarily on branding and advertising to create an appealing and recognisable product. The early 20th century saw the rise of the iconic cigarette brands, each seeking to distinguish itself through distinctive packaging designs. Often vibrant, colourful and glamorous—as we are seeing with vapes—they were designed to entice new customers, including young people, and to create a sense of status or sophistication.
Cigarette packaging became a key component of the advertising strategy, with slogans, logos and images intended to convey a lifestyle associated with smoking. Of course, a young person attracted to them would have bought that packet, carried it and shown it to their friends. The packaging would form part of the attraction of the product, and encouraged people to take on a product that we would not have wanted them to. There were no health warnings at that time, and little was done to inform the public of the dangers associated with smoking. That persisted for many years until the latter half of the 20th century. As Members will be aware, throughout the history of tobacco advertising, characters and mascots have played a significant role. These often colourful, friendly and appealing figures, designed to make smoking appear safe, desirable and even fun, were found on the packets.
Andrew Gwynne
The shadow Minister is making a really compelling argument, but it would be best saved for the Delegated Legislation Committee following the consultation, so that we know exactly what the Government are proposing. She is setting out a resounding argument for different measures, but that is not of course what the clause sets out. It gives Ministers the power to consult and to bring secondary legislation to a future Delegated Legislation Committee. That is where the shadow Minister should be making these absolutely superb arguments, but we need the powers first.
Dr Johnson
With respect, it is unwise to give someone the power to do something you do not want them to do.
Dr Johnson
Thank you, Mr Dowd—I am sure you have no opinion on this matter, as you are impartial.
Before giving powers under clause 90 to change packaging and make packaging regulations, it is important that we understand the Minister’s intention. Is it to strengthen or to weaken?
Andrew Gwynne
If the shadow Minister is seriously saying that the Government are bringing forward measures to weaken existing provision, she is living in cloud cuckoo land. She does not need to ask me or, through me, the Secretary of State whether it is our intention to weaken the provisions; it absolutely is not. It is in our manifesto that we would bring them in. We want to strengthen the measures. The shadow Minister actually needs to ask Opposition Members whether they would use the powers to weaken those measures. That is not a question for me; it is one on which she has to tussle with the Leader of the Opposition and with Opposition Back Benchers on the Committee.
Dr Johnson
I thank the Minister for his intervention, but the Labour manifesto is not necessarily a document on which one can rely. I do not seem to recall its saying that the Government were going to take the winter fuel allowance from old people. I will not test your patience, Mr Dowd, by giving other examples of where the Labour manifesto did not reflect what the Government went on to do, but the point has been made.
One of the key issues from the public consultation on the Bill, which is therefore relevant to clause 90, is the growing concern and mounting evidence about vape packaging and the need to prevent products from appealing to children. The consultation paper issued by the Government expressed a clear desire to ensure that no vape packaging or vape devices should target young people. The Khan review, which was done under the last Government, recommended that restrictions be placed on packaging images and descriptions to ensure that vapes did not appeal to children.
In that vein, the Government have suggested that they will ban the use of cartoon characters, animal images, images of inanimate objects and other child- friendly visuals used on packaging and devices, recalling the infamous tobacco mascots of times gone by. By implementing such a measure, I believe that the Government aim to reduce the attractiveness of such products to children, acknowledging that current marketing practices may be encouraging the use of such products among young people who have never smoked.
A quick online search can dig up all sorts of vapes and vape paraphernalia clearly targeted at children. Vape packets with SpongeBob SquarePants, Mario Kart characters and other cartoon characters can be found online. I have listened to children who have said that they have discussed which vape they should have to match the outfit they are wearing at a particular event.
There is significant public support for stricter regulation of vape packaging. A 2023 public opinion survey commissioned by Action on Smoking and Health found that 76% of adults in England are in favour of limiting the use of sweet names, cartoons and bright colours on vape packaging. That shows that there is widespread concern among the public about the need for stronger safeguards to protect young people from becoming regular users of nicotine products.
The call for limiting the appeal of vape products to children is in line with broader efforts to tackle young vaping, which has become a growing public health issue in recent years, but public opinion is not the only factor that should drive the changes to packaging. The Government’s concern over youth vaping is also reflected in their efforts to develop a comprehensive regulatory approach. In addition to restricting the use of child-friendly images on packaging, there are other, broader changes, which I will not go into now.
The packaging of vaping products is not just a cosmetic issue. The clause talks about cosmetic things such as what materials can be used, what packages can look like, how big they are or what shape they can be, but those have real implications for public health. By regulating the appearance and branding of these products, we can significantly influence how they are perceived by the public and, most importantly, younger audiences. The goal of the regulatory measures has to be to strike a balance between ensuring that vaping remains available as a harm-reduction tool for adults trying to quit and reducing the risks associated with its increasing appeal to young people.
That delicate balance requires careful consideration and ongoing dialogue between health experts, industry stakeholders and the public. As the Minister pursues such consultation—if he is given the powers under clause 90—I hope that he will consider the matter of flexibility and the way in which the businesses tend to evolve, and that he will future-proof the regulations. The UK Government have taken an important step in recognising the potential risks posed by packaging and are actively working to mitigate those risks through public consultations, policy papers and regulatory changes. However, that is only the beginning. To effectively address the challenges posed by vaping, further measures will need to be introduced not just on packaging, but in relation to other matters, which we will come to later.
We have made the case for why we should consider giving the Secretary of State or Ministers the powers to regulate retail packaging. However, the question is what impact that will have. Will it have a big or small impact, and will we be putting a large amount of regulation on to businesses for minimal effect and increased cost? Will this make a big difference? The Government have produced an impact assessment of the measures in clause 90 and their desired outcome. It says that the appeal of vapes to children, and the subsequent number who go on to vape, is expected to reduce with the restriction of packaging presentation. Such restriction would therefore result in overall health benefits to our young people due to a reduction in vaping uptake and associated harms.
Moreover, such a decrease in vaping uptake and associated usage among young people is recognised in the impact assessment as also being potentially beneficial for the environment because of a reduction in the anticipated litter from vape-related packaging. Indeed, a litter pick with volunteers from Sleaford a little while ago drew my attention to the harm that vape-related waste is having on our environment. Again, in considering the material of packaging, the Minister may want to think about any environmental hazard posed, which is something that he can mandate under clause 90(3)(d) to ensure that the packaging is to a standard that helps to reduce the effect on the environment.
Furthermore, the impact assessment highlights that the illicit vape market has been increasing and suggests that it could be exacerbated if these powers were implemented. However, it could also be argued that more appropriate packaging restrictions could assist in distinguishing between compliant and illicit vape products, depending on how the regulations were brought forward. They could make it arguably more difficult to discretely stock, advertise or sell such illicit products, and easier to identify and tackle illegality in the sector. It is recognised that packaging-related restrictions are expected to reduce the number of children and adults vaping, thus reducing the profits for manufacturers and stockers because of packaging presentation.
The impact assessment also sets out that such measures are not expected to prohibit or affect the abilities of vape consumers themselves in making choices based on their own preferences or in purchasing the products they wish to consume. If one is already a vape customer, or one is a smoker wishing to stop, packaging will not have an effect, but it may well reduce the likelihood that children start vaping, which is a good thing. Consumers are free to engage in purchasing and consuming such products as they wish, albeit that by being in different packaging, it is less appealing to children and young people.
Although no studies have shown the real-world impact of standardised packaging for vaping products, evidence from experimental studies suggests that plain packaging may reduce the appeal of vaping products among young people. There is research in the impact assessment about standard olive-coloured packaging—I am not sure whether that is a green olive or a darker olive—in comparison with branded packaging. It found that young people aged 11 to 18 had a lower interest in trying vapes in standard packaging but there was no difference among adult respondents between the branded and plain standardised products. Research from King’s College London and Action on Smoking and Health shows that different effect, with young people being more likely to attracted by the packaging than adults.
A recent study also looked at a cross-sectional online survey to explore interest in the perceived harms of vaping products when it comes to packaging. The study found that not only did young people aged 16 to 19 in England, Canada and the US find e-liquids in white or olive-coloured standardised packaging less appealing compared with those in branded vape packaging, but that they inaccurately perceived e-liquids in that standardised packaging as being equally or more harmful than smoking, compared with e-liquids in branded packaging. Again, there is evidence that packaging influences children’s decisions. If they look at something in a plain packet, they are more likely to think it is not good for them than if they see it in a packet with Mario Kart or a teddy bear on it. I know that is instinctive, but the evidence also bears it out, as seen in the Government’s impact assessment.
I am interested to know how clause 90 differs from existing legislation, particularly on tobacco products. It is my understanding that under the Standardised Packaging of Tobacco Products Regulations 2015, which came into effect on 20 May 2017, all products—including cigarettes, rolling tobacco and snuff—must be sold in standard packaging. The use of logos, trademarks and branding has been severely restricted and tobacco packaging must display the product name in standard font and size without any distinctive logos, colours or images.
Sarah Bool
My hon. Friend makes a very powerful and valid point. I would like the Minister to address how we are going to tackle the issue online. If someone cannot go into a physical shop, going online is the next alternative, and we want to ensure that we protect our young ones as much as possible.
I want to highlight one other point from Cancer Research. It said that it is also important that the legislation future-proofs against the use of bright coloured lights or similar displays that could appeal to young people. Again, we need to be careful of that. As has been said, manufacturers are often very good at finding their way around these regulations, so we do not want to make the products attractive in another vein.
My second point focuses on clause 90(3)(b), which says that provisions may be made about
“the information provided on packaging or otherwise supplied with a product”.
We had some evidence submitted from the North East Public Protection Partnership, which is a regional partner-ship that brings together chief officers of 12 local authorities in the north-east, representing environmental health, trading standards and licensing services. The partner- ship is in support of the measure, but believes that certain requirements should be put on packaging itself—it thinks that inserts in the packaging should be regulated. I have learnt, as I have not come across them often before, that inserts are used internationally, in Canada and Israel. They are proven to encourage people to give up smoking when they are placed inside the packaging. They usually contain positive messages to encourage people to quit—for example, by going into detail about improved breathing within a matter of days of quitting or the 50% reduction in the risk of heart attacks within a year, or by detailing how much money a smoker is likely to save.
The North East Public Protection Partnership believes that there should be specific regulations around the inserts and the packaging, setting out the type and size of font, the colour, the layout, and dimensions. It thinks that the specific information to use on packaging should be defined and that the information provided on where to seek more help to quit should also be included. It also says it is essential to set a date for suppliers for when packaging must appear on the UK market and that the penalties on manufacturers for non-compliance should be set out.
The partnership also said:
“The Government will need to liaise with Trading Standards in order to ensure that the appropriate offence, or offences, are included in regulations on pack inserts. We would recommend an offence is included which relates to the sale or supply of a tobacco product without the correct insert, so that Trading Standards can take enforcement action against the person selling. An example of this includes the Tobacco and Related Products Regulations 2016 where there is an offence to produce as well as supply product in breach of regulations.”
Finally, it adds:
“Health messaging should be on the outside of all tobacco, nicotine and vape products.”
My final question to the Minister is: have he and his Department turned their mind to inserts, what they might contain, and the role they could play in future?
Andrew Gwynne
We have had a good debate on clause 90—that is all we are up to.
To answer why this is an issue, unlike standardised cigarette packaging, vape packaging can—as we have already heard—come in many different colours, styles, and shapes. The previous call for evidence that the shadow Minister referred to showed that this increases the appeal of vapes to children, and it can encourage them to start vaping. That is what we want to crack down on with this clause.
A number of Members have asked why we are extending the provisions, given that tobacco packaging is already standardised. Only cigarettes and hand-rolled tobacco are subject to the most stringent regulations. This includes standardised packaging, specified packet shape, amount within packs, material, colour and appearance requirements, and so on. In England, around five times more people smoke other tobacco products, such as cigars, than a decade ago. There has been an increase in that consumption and we are committed to addressing this, which is why we are extending the measures to other tobacco products.
In terms of requiring dissuasive messages, of course, these are things that we can look at in the future—it is not something that we are looking at now. We will be mandating pack inserts for cigarettes and hand-rolled tobacco packaging, and we will be running a call for evidence on standardising the packaging of all other products. The shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham, asked whether the Secretary of State or Ministers will use the powers. We are coming to Parliament with this landmark Tobacco and Vapes Bill, as we committed to in our manifesto, precisely because we want to use these powers. We are seeking these powers. The Scottish Ministers, the Welsh Ministers, and the Northern Ireland Minister are seeking these powers precisely because we all want to use them to tackle the scourge of youth vaping and move our country to smokefree 2030. Our manifesto committed to stopping vapes being branded to appeal to children, and the Bill provides new regulation-making powers to make this commitment a reality.
As has been alluded to, Members have asked over the course of our deliberations why the restrictions are not on the face of the Bill. In particular, the shadow Minister has gone into the level of detail that we will go into when the regulations are brought before the House, following consultation. My answer is that the technical and detailed nature of the requirements means that they are not suitable to be put on the face of the Bill. We might need to amend the requirements in response to future developments in the market, and scientific knowledge and evidence may change, which means that we will have to react where appropriate. It might also be necessary to gather further evidence post-implementation—this is precisely the point that the hon. Member for Farnham and Bordon made about ensuring that everything is evidence-based, that the data is there and that we scrutinise it, rightly. We may well come to decide that our regulations are the wrong regulations, or that they were the right regulations three years ago, but now need to be changed. That is the why the powers in the Bill are permissive.
It is also important to gather information about the effectiveness of the packaging regulations, to see whether they have indeed discouraged youth vaping. All the evidence from other jurisdictions that do this suggests that they will; however, we need to ensure that the evidence is relevant to the United Kingdom. We will also need to keep a close eye on what happens to adult vapers, particularly those who want to stop smoking, and whether vapes remain accessible to adults who are trying to quit smoking, which is something we need to be clear about.
To be clear, the requirements for vape packaging are yet to be determined, as I said in an intervention on the shadow Minister. The proposed restrictions will be subject to consultation, to ensure that any unintended consequences on adult smoking rates are considered. Research suggests that neutral packaging can remove appeal to youth without being dissuasive to adult smokers—the point made in the information from Cancer Research UK, which the hon. Member for South Northamptonshire rightly raised. Further analysis and consultation will take place before any regulations are made, because we absolutely want to get this right.
It is crucial that we do not rush into this, but have measures that are proportionate and workable, and that there are no unintended consequences. That is why there will be a transition period for businesses before any new regulations come into force, and the length of the transition will be considered as part of the consultation process. This is a balance to be struck between acting quickly to curb youth vaping and carefully considering unintended consequences on smoking rates, in order to ensure the most impactful change possible. That is why we have included a statutory duty to consult, to ensure that the relevant stakeholders are engaged, and to consider their responses and insights as regulations are developed.
Of course, we will provide more information about the timeline for our secondary regulation programme once we have Royal Assent, but let me make it clear to all members of the Committee that it is our intention to move at pace. We want to use these powers, so we want to make sure that, once the Bill becomes law, we start the process of getting the relevant regulations in place, especially for smokefree, because although many of the measures in the Bill will come into force on 1 January 2027, some regulations might be done beyond that date. We will have a lot of work to do in secondary legislation, to get the measures in the Bill—which we hope will all be approved in the course of our deliberations prior to Royal Assent—so that we can hit the ground running and get to 1 January 2027 smoke-free.
Dr Johnson
I am glad to hear that the Minister wants to use the regulations and strengthen the regulation around vaping—although I appreciate that that is not the view of the entire Committee—but he is talking about 1 January 2027, which is almost two full years away. Does he anticipate that the packaging regulations will come in before or after the legislation on the smoke-free generation?
Andrew Gwynne
The simple answer at this stage is: “I do not know.” It depends on parliamentary time being made available, the length of the consultations and what comes back from them, and a whole range of things that right now are outside of my control. But I say to the hon. Lady that, first, smoke-free is the priority. We have an absolute deadline for having smoke-free regulations in place, with enough of the lead-in time that we have promised retailers, and in respect of licensing requirements for the commencement of the Bill. But be under no illusion: we will be moving like the clappers, to get as many regulations in place as early as possible, so that the measures in the Bill can have the full impact and effect as soon as humanly and legislatively possible. That is my commitment.
Question put, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
Gregory Stafford
Those sound like fairly reasonable timeframes; if the Minister were minded to follow those, I would support him, notwithstanding what I have already said.
On clause 91, which I support, we need to ensure that there is a comprehensive stakeholder consultation for whatever the Minister plans to do in this area. There needs to be some kind of phased implementation—by which I mean an eight or nine-month period, or whatever—to ensure that manufacturers can catch up with whatever is being implemented. As I have said previously on other clauses, there must be robust enforcement mechanisms to ensure that manufacturers and retailers comply. Once again, this is all about educating the public about what the legislation means and what they should be expecting. Public education campaigns on this matter are essential.
Andrew Gwynne
I am grateful to the Committee for this discussion. Amendment 5 and new clause 1 require the Secretary of State to consult on regulations to introduce health warnings on cigarettes and cigarette papers. I am sympathetic towards the aim of the amendments, which encourage current smokers to quit by providing them with information on the harms of tobacco.
However, the UK already has some of the most stringent regulations in the world on tobacco packaging, which emphasise the heath harms of tobacco. That includes the requirement for plain packaging and graphic picture warnings on the outside of cigarette packs. A post-implementation review published in 2022 stated that these measures still remain effective in helping smokers to quit and in deterring children from taking up the habit. As set out in our response on 5 November 2024 to the consultation on tobacco pack inserts, we will implement positive quit-themed health messaging into the packaging of cigarettes and hand-rolled tobacco. That could contribute up to 150,000 additional quit attempts and 30,000 successful quits over two years.
We are also going further. We will look to extend the legislation on pack inserts to cover all tobacco products, tobacco-related devices, cigarette papers and herbal smoking products. To do that, we are running a call for evidence on standardised packaging to consider introducing more stringent packaging requirements for the different tobacco-related product types wherever possible.
On pack inserts in particular, my hon. Friend the Member for City of Durham asked about implementation. Of course, we are working to implement that as soon as we can, but only after engagement with relevant stakeholders, as I said in the previous debates. We will consult on the final specifications before laying the legislation before Parliament. There is a lot of clapping going on; this is something else on which we will be working like the clappers to get over the line. I hope that reassures my hon. Friend that pack inserts are a priority for the Government. We will move at pace to get that done.
On a technical note to my hon. Friend’s amendments, the Bill restates the existing power to make regulations on the appearance of tobacco products, including cigarette sticks. Not only that: it goes further and extends that power to other products, including cigarette papers. We therefore do not believe that the amendments are required to bring in dissuasive messages on cigarettes, because the powers already exist in this Bill should Ministers seek to consult in the future and bring forward secondary legislation.
While it is not our plan to introduce dissuasive messages on cigarettes at this time, because we already have strong health warning measures in place, we will continue to monitor the evidence. As has rightly been said, we want to be evidence-led in the measures we seek to introduce. I want to see the success of such measures in Canada and elsewhere so that we can use that evidence at a future stage.
While my hon. Friend the Member for City of Durham has indicated that she will withdraw the amendments, I hope I have given her some reassurance that the amendments are not needed because we have the powers to do precisely what she wants to do. At some stage in the future, a Minister—it may or may not be me—may come forward with secondary legislation following a consultation.
Dr Johnson
The Minister has been clear that he believes he has the power under clause 91 to put the messages on the cigarettes if he chooses to, which is interesting to note. Will he clarify whether that remains the case with information inserts? The clause refers to the appearance of the products, the shape and the messaging. Will it include pack inserts?
Andrew Gwynne
What the amendments seek to do is to put the messages on cigarettes themselves. Those powers exist in the Bill. I do not understand what the shadow Minister is talking about, because pack insert measures are happening: we will be moving at pace to ensure that they are further consulted on, that legislation is brought to Parliament and that we get the pack inserts in place. As far as dissuasive cigarettes are concerned, that is not our intention at this stage, but powers exist in the Bill for a Minister to consult and bring forward secondary legislation to put health warnings on individual cigarettes should Parliament and Government decide that that is the right thing to do.
Clause 91, included in part 5, provides the Secretary of State with the powers to make regulations about the future of vaping products, tobacco products, tobacco-related devices and nicotine products as well as cigarette papers and herbal smoking products. The clause would allow the Secretary of State to regulate what information should be provided on a product as well as the size, shape and appearance of a product.
It is vital that we reduce the appeal of harmful and addictive products to children. A key part of that is through how these products appear themselves. There are currently no limits whatever on what a vape can look like. As we heard in evidence, there are vapes that look like highlighter pens and computer pen drives. There are vapes that look like mobile phones. There are vapes that are concealed in hoodies so people can vape through the string of the hoodie. These are pernicious attempts to hook young children and adolescents on nicotine products. That is why the measures are so crucial.
Dr Johnson
We had a little search at lunch time and found some examples that may contravene the law. Can the Minister advise to where we should refer those for enforcement?
Andrew Gwynne
Of course, trading standards enforces the sale of these things, so if the hon. Lady has concerns about particular products being sold in the online sphere, the first port of call is trading standards, which can investigate and take the appropriate action.
Regarding enforcement of online sales, the Bill enables Ministers in England, Wales and Northern Ireland to introduce the licensing scheme that we have already debated for retail sale, including online retail sale, of tobacco, vapes and nicotine products. Penalties will be capable of being brought against retailers who do not adhere to sales regulations. Obviously, as we have discussed —I do not want to tread on old ground—we will consult on the details of the licensing scheme before regulations are laid. Moreover, in the financial year 2025-26, this Government will invest a total of £30 million of new funding for the enforcement agencies, including trading standards, His Majesty’s Revenue and Customs and Border Force, to tackle illicit and under-age sales of tobacco and vapes, supporting the implementation of measures in the Bill.
The hon. Member for Farnham and Bordon rightly raised some concerns about how long manufacturers and retailers will have to implement the changes. There will be a transition period for businesses before any of the new regulations come into force. The length of the transition will be considered as part of the consultation exercise. There is clearly a balance to be struck between acting quickly to curb youth vaping and carefully considering the unintended consequences that we are all worried about. That is why these measures are a proportionate step. However, let me be clear that we will not stand idly by while industry knowingly and deliberately encourages children to use a product that will addict them to nicotine. Industry has failed to self-regulate. The fact that a quarter—25%—of all children aged between 11 and 15 have vaped shows that self-regulation has failed. We must now intervene to ensure that this can no longer happen—or get worse.
We are not banning the sale or manufacture of vapes; rather, we are ensuring that all the measures that we are talking about happen in a proportionate way that seeks to remove the harm and risk to our children and future generations. However, let me be clear that industry self-regulation has failed. That is why I call on hon. Members to support clause 91.
Mary Kelly Foy
I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 91 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 92
Contents and flavour
Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
Andrew Gwynne
This clause provides the Secretary of State with powers to regulate substances, and the amount of a substance, used in vaping products, tobacco products, tobacco-related devices, nicotine products, cigarette papers and herbal smoking products.
We know that the use of tobacco products and herbal smoking products can increase when they are flavoured or are used alongside flavour accessories. For instance, menthol cigarettes appeal to young people because, compared with non-menthol cigarettes, they make it easier and less harsh to inhale smoke. That is why the sale of menthol-flavoured cigarettes was rightly banned in May 2020 by the previous Government, and I give credit to them for moving on that issue.
It is therefore very concerning that industry has used the same tactics for vaping and nicotine products. Research shows that children are attracted to the fruit and sweet flavours of vapes, both in their taste and smell, as well as how they are described. We have heard a lot over the past few weeks, particularly from the shadow Minister, as well as from others, about flavours such as gummy bear and rainbow burst. Unicorn milkshake was another favourite of the shadow Minister—not that I am suggesting that she vapes, just that it is one of her favourites to refer to.
Dr Johnson
I would rather the Minister said that it was a flavour I have commonly referred to than a favourite flavour, because I honestly cannot tell him what a unicorn’s milk tastes like.
Andrew Gwynne
I would not have a clue either, because I am one of those boring individuals who has neither smoked nor vaped. I am now 50 years old, and I do not intend to start either in my next half century—now that I have had my liver check, I know that I am going to live for the next half century.
There is no reason why flavours such as gummy bear, rainbow burst or unicorn milkshake should be made available. They clearly target one audience, and one audience only: children. We cannot let industry repeat the same tactics it used to hook a generation of children on cigarettes by enticing the next generation to start and continue vaping.
Furthermore, some specific substances can increase the risk of harm to users and must be properly regulated or banned completely. Equally, any tobacco accessory that imparts flavour should also be banned. The clause will mean that the Secretary of State can close the current loophole.
However, we recognise that vape flavours can be a consideration for some adult smokers, as was mentioned earlier, and particularly those seeking to quit smoking. To avoid any unintended consequences, the scope of future restrictions will have to be carefully considered, with a statutory duty to consult on any proposed restriction, to ensure that we get the balance right.
What we do not want to do is dissuade people for whom vaping is the best stop smoking tool from stopping smoking. The advice of the chief medical officers of the four nations was clear: “If you smoke, it is safer to vape. If you are a child, you should never vape and never smoke. If you are a non-smoker, the same is true: never vape, never smoke.” We have to ensure that we do not throw out the baby with the bathwater and revert those who we wish to stop smoking back to smoking.
That point has to be carefully considered when the consultation and the secondary legislation comes before Parliament, but let me make it clear: we will not allow these child-friendly flavours that are blatantly in existence for one purpose only, which is not to stop adults smoking; it is to hook kids on nicotine. That has to stop, and that will stop.
Dr Johnson
Does the Minister want to comment on the range of flavours available, and whether he thinks that has any impact?
Andrew Gwynne
It absolutely does. That is why these powers are framed in the way they are. It is something that the Secretary of State and Ministers, when considering the balance that I have just talked about, may well take into consideration. We still want vaping to be accessible and available to people as a stop smoking tool. We recognise that one of the attractions of vapes over cigarettes is that they tend to taste nicer—or so I am told. If cigarettes taste anything like how they smell, I can understand why that is the case.
What we do not want to do is create a loophole that retains the attractiveness of vapes to children. The range of flavours will also have to be considered in any future consultation so that there are no unintended consequences. We must get the balance right and stop these awful products being promoted to kids in the most pernicious way while respecting the fact that for a number of people, vapes are a route out of smoking. With that, I commend the clause to the Committee.
Dr Johnson
I am grateful to the Minister for setting out aspects of the clause, and particularly for his passionate speech making clear that he wants to see vaping among children stop. When I first brought forward on the Floor of the House measures on vaping, it was with the intention of protecting children from the rapidly rising trend before they became hooked on a form of nicotine. I am grateful that the Minister seems to share the same passion for protecting children; that is good to see.
Clause 92 deals with the contents and flavour of tobacco, vaping and nicotine products. It provides for the Secretary of State to make regulations on the flavour of relevant products and the substances that may be included and their amount in any relevant tobacco, vape or nicotine product.
Sarah Bool
I agree. I think the hon. Member makes a valid point. It is part of the bigger discussion that we have to have, with the ability to be a bit more agile in how we actually decide, because I do not want us to take the wrong approach and have unintended consequences.
Again, that goes to another point that the shadow Minister raised, about what flavours are potentially harmful in themselves. The hon. Member for Cardiff West is right and I take his point about flavours such as bubble gum entirely, but apparently even cinnamon, vanilla and butter are toxic. They are fine for us to eat —butter in moderation, of course—but inhaling them is a different matter. I think it will be very interesting to see what combinations are used and what the impact is, because, apparently, if certain flavours and chemicals are combined, that can actually be even more toxic than before. That is something that the regulations, and some of the research, will have to look into for us.
Interestingly, the Royal College of Physicians also gave its view on this topic in the written evidence. That was along similar lines but slightly different. It says:
“While we know flavours can attract young people to vaping, the use of flavours by adults trying to quit smoking is an integral part of the effectiveness of vaping as a quit aid. We know that many adult smokers report wanting to move away from the taste of tobacco. Other nicotine replacement therapy…products, such as gums and lozenges, also have fruit flavours. The RCP supports limiting the number of flavours available and recommends restricting flavour descriptors. Bland descriptors, alongside limiting the number of flavours and removing those most popular with young people non-smokers from vaping without the unintended consequences of perpetuating smoking for adults.”
I agree with the points that have been made, but I think that we have to be careful about how we decide which flavours are used and their range. I take the point that we often want to move people away from tobacco, because a tobacco-flavoured vape is not pleasant, or so I am told, but my concern is that, if someone do not necessarily have a tobacco-flavoured vape, then with something as nice as peach and mango—which a vaper I know really likes—people will actually vape more than they ever smoked because it is tastier for them. I think we will really have to look into that as well.
I would also like some further clarity from the Minister on clause 92(3) and the clause what regulations the Department is currently thinking about, particularly when it comes to the imports of any of these vaping products.
Finally, subsection (4) that that there will be
“provision for a determination to be made by a person authorised for the purpose by the Secretary of State”
to make the decision on the flavours. Who is in mind to be given those powers? A bit more clarity on that would be much appreciated.
Andrew Gwynne
Let me start with the point made by the hon. Member for South Northamptonshire on the need for agility. I have argued in respect to a number of clauses that we have to be agile. That is why the Bill is permissive in nature. It grants powers to Ministers to consult and bring forward secondary legislation at further stages. It also allows Ministers to amend the regulations, if set, or to introduce new ones if not at a future date, without having to go back through the primary legislation processes, to make the Bill always fit for purpose and for the future.
That is the case in clause 92. As I said in opening, we recognise that vape flavours are an important consideration for adult smokers seeking to quit smoking. To avoid unintended consequences on adult smoking rates, the scope and impact of any future restrictions will have to be carefully considered by Parliament, following consultation, in secondary legislation. We will consult further on any regulations on flavours before they are laid in Parliament. This is really important—I can assure Members that we are not saying here and now what the changes are likely to be. We want them to be considered based on the evidence and consultation, because we want to get the balance right between preventing youth vaping and not having the unintended consequence of pushing people away from vapes as a smoking cessation tool, thereby missing our ambition for Smokefree 2030.
Dr Johnson
Can the Minister give us some timescales for the consultation and explain the various details that it will add to the consultation done by the previous Government?
Andrew Gwynne
Again, the shadow Minister is skipping ahead of herself. We have to get these powers through Parliament. I cannot tell her the scope or extent of the consultation, the consultees, or the nature of the restrictions we may seek to bring before Members, because Ministers do not have those powers yet. All I can do is give her assurances that these matters will be looked at, at speed and within good time, to bring a set of regulations before a Delegated Legislation Committee in due course.
We want to get the balance right, as Members across the House have amplified not just in this debate but throughout the course of proceedings on the Bill, because these are big changes, and they are landmark changes. If we get them right, they will do everything we aspire the Bill to do not just in tackling child and youth vaping, but reaching a Smokefree 2030. If we get them wrong, we could end up with smoking rates increasing, which is not what we want to see. We could see children starting to smoke again, which is absolutely not what we want to see. We could see all the work done in recent decades start to be undone. That is not the ambition or aim of the Bill. The aim and ambition of the Bill is to make smoking history and crack down on the scourge of youth vaping. I believe that if we get the regulations right, we will meet that aim. That is a good thing.
Gregory Stafford
The clause in essence allows the Secretary of State to regulate emissions from tobacco and nicotine products, ensuring that harmful substances released during use are controlled. This is a vital measure to protect smokers and non-smokers from hazardous emissions. My first question is on that last point: can the Minister confirm that the regulations will be designed to protect those who suffer from second-hand smoke? The evidence on vaping is weak, and the evidence on the effects of second-hand inhalation of vapour from vapes is even weaker, but some studies suggest that it is dangerous, especially given that, according to Public Health England, while cigarette smoke contains more than 7,000 chemicals, 70 of which are known to be carcinogens, there are significant problems—as my hon. Friend the shadow Minister said—from the chemicals that are, and potentially could be, in the vapes.
The clause ensures that the regulations can limit the release of those toxic substances and therefore reduce health risks for the users and those exposed to the second-hand smoke. We know that second-hand smoke causes serious health issues, including heart disease and lung cancer. Studies from the World Health Organisation suggest that exposure to second-hand smoke is responsible for 1.2 million deaths globally each year; I suppose, in the world’s population, that does not sound like a vast number, but given the fact that those people have done absolutely nothing wrong and are often, unfortunately, children and young people who suffer smoke from their parents and carers, I think it is worth controlling and regulating. Stronger emission controls would definitely reduce those deaths. As my hon. Friend the shadow Minister said, while vaping has been deemed less harmful than smoking, concerns remain about long-term exposure to certain chemicals in the e-liquids. The clause allows regulators continually to assess and update guidelines on vaping emissions—I welcome that—to reflect the latest scientific advice.
I am certain that the industry will push back on this measure, as they have done on many other points, but I hope that the Government are ready for any possible legal challenges on the regulations when they are brought in. Unlike traditional cigarettes, e-cigarettes or vapes have a vast array of formulations, and therefore creating effective regulatory standards that balance the harm reduction with the safety will be complex. Will the Minister outline how he intends to go about that once the regulations are in place?
Andrew Gwynne
As has been said, the measures in the clause make provision for the amount and nature of substances that may be released into the body by vaping products, tobacco products and related devices, nicotine products, cigarette papers, and herbal smoking products. The Tobacco and Related Products Regulations 2016 set out the maximum levels of tar, nicotine and carbon monoxide emitted by cigarettes, and they require all cigarette brands to be tested for emissions. However, we do not have the same requirements in place for vapes and other nicotine products, and the clause expands the scope so those products can be regulated in the same way.
Andrew Gwynne
The clause enables the Secretary of State to place restrictions on the display of non-compliant images for vaping products, nicotine products, cigarette papers, herbal smoking products, tobacco devices and tobacco products. That is so that displays of products can be brought into line with any packaging or other requirements about a product’s features established in regulations made under clauses 90 and 91, which we have just discussed.
To be clear, the restriction already exists for tobacco products. The Tobacco and Related Products Regulations 2016 make it an offence to publish non-compliant images of unit or container packs of tobacco products targeted at consumers. The clause merely expands on the existing provision to include all products, such as nicotine products and vaping products, because we have seen how producers and retailers display products in colourful and attractive ways to entice customers, sometimes using product images that are clearly enhanced. As we seek to restrict the packaging of products through secondary legislation, it is important that producers use accurate images of their products. That is what the clause is for. I acknowledge, that there is a real debate to be had—not quite to the extent set out by the hon. Member for South Northamptonshire —on the power of social media to push imagery to young people, particularly when it comes to smoking and vaping.
It is no coincidence that platforms such as TikTok are exploiting the fact that they can not only get imagery to young people, but, as a consequence, advertise products to them. That is why just this week, I have signed off an advertising campaign against youth vaping that will appear on TikTok. We have been given permission by Downing Street—one of only a handful of Departments allowed to advertise on TikTok—and we are doing so is because that is exactly where the tobacco and vaping industries are. We will not give them a free-for-all; we will go in there with some hard-hitting imagery, show how we protect young people’s lungs and challenge the narrative that the influencers are pushing.
It reminds me—I may have mentioned it already—that I have had not one, two or three, but four articles in LADbible. Since I have started referring to LADbible, it has popped up on my social media all the time, so somebody is listening in. That is precisely what one of the articles was about, because LADbible was incredibly concerned about the imagery from influencers that is being pumped out to young people, undermining all the public health messages that we have been pushing for decades. I was asked, “How do you challenge to a young person this image of a sexy, good-looking influencer with a cigarette or a vape?” It is very reminiscent of the imagery that we got in the 1950s and 1960s of film stars with a cigarette, and so on. That has been reinvented on social media.
Sarah Bool
The Minister is making a powerful point. I was concerned about the idea that an influencer might be able to publish an image of a retail packet that is not compliant. At the moment, there are no restrictions, especially if they are abroad. Obviously, some of the influencers with the biggest followings are outside the UK, and I am therefore not sure how we ensure compliance, other than by doing what X does with community notes that pop up. I think there will have to be a discussion with Instagram and some of the other companies, because they are making money out of it. Indirectly, I think the Bill does catch this issue, but I thank the Minister for his clarity.
Andrew Gwynne
Again, that is the beauty of the permissive nature of this Bill. Where loopholes are being exploited, Ministers will be able to come back to Parliament with a simple piece of secondary legislation, through a Delegated Legislation Committee. The shadow Minister said that secondary legislation does not quite get the scrutiny of a Bill, but it does get up to 90 minutes —I am sure she would find it easy enough to fill that. There is therefore scrutiny of secondary legislation.
We are very aware of this issue, which is why I have signed off the anti-youth vaping campaign on TikTok, which will hopefully be going out fairly soon.
Dr Johnson
I welcome the steps that the Minister is taking on social media platforms to discourage young people from vaping; that is a very welcome intervention. Given that he has appeared in LADbible articles, I am curious to know whether he will appear in the TikTok videos. I do not have a TikTok account, but it might almost be worth joining to watch them—I think that would be great.
How does clause 94 relate to the advertising clauses, which we have not discussed yet but will discuss later? Presumably, if an influencer is receiving revenue, they are effectively advertising a product.
Andrew Gwynne
I am not sure whether my social media clips from this Committee or any other parliamentary proceedings are quite made for TikTok, but who knows?
Andrew Gwynne
I agree with the hon. Gentleman: I do not think so either. I do not think I would get terribly many followers, and I am not sure I could ever be described as an influencer, except perhaps for Government Members—[Interruption.] Maybe. Even that has come to a Division. Politics can be brutal.
I will go into more detail on how the later advertising clauses interrelate with this clause when we discuss them, because there are clearly cross-overs. The clause will enable the Government to make restrictions that would prohibit an online retailer having pictures of products with non-compliant packaging on their website. That is to make sure that when we bring in the restrictions on the packaging, there cannot be images of a completely different product online or in the shop that would potentially attract children and young people to obtain it.
Hon. Members have asked why we need this clause if we are banning advertising. Without this power, businesses could continue to publish images of vapes that appeal to children both online and in store. As we know, research clearly shows that bright colours and cartoon figures have helped to fuel youth vaping. This clause will stamp that out.
The shadow Minister raised a fair point about clothing. Clause 123, if we ever reach it, contains powers on brand sharing. That could, subject to consultation—that is the caveat that most of these clauses seem to have—capture the images and logos that she mentioned.
On enforcement, clause 104 sets out that regulations can make provisions on enforcement, so that detail will be set out in regulations.
I will write to hon. Members about moving images to make sure that they are covered.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 94 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 95
Registration
Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
Andrew Gwynne
The clause allows the Secretary of State to make regulations to establish a register for tobacco, vaping and nicotine products for their permitted supply in the UK. That will improve the existing regime, which has separate notification processes for tobacco products and nicotine vapes. Non-nicotine vapes and other nicotine products are not currently required to be notified. The clause will give the Government the power to establish a registration scheme covering all these products.
Currently, before they can sell nicotine vapes and tobacco products on the UK market, producers must notify their products to the relevant authority. For nicotine vapes, that is the Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency, or MHRA, and for tobacco products it is the Department of Health and Social Care. That is meant to help to ensure that products comply with our regulations and that retailers are confident that they are selling notified and regulated products. However, there are weaknesses with those systems, and both fail to support enforcement agencies adequately. The clause allows us to establish a more robust scheme for the registration of products. The details of the scheme will be set out in regulations and subject to consultation.
However, in future, if a trading standards officer found a product to be different from its registration details, that product could be eligible for removal from the register until the information is updated. That will greatly improve the confidence of enforcement agencies in addressing issues with non-compliance. Unless they are well regulated, these products can be harmful, particularly for young people. Establishing a new registration system will play an important part in compliance to make sure that products meet the regulatory requirements and are safe for consumers, and it will improve retailer confidence in the products they are selling. I therefore commend the clause to the Committee.
Dr Johnson
Clause 95 relates to the registration and information requirements of the relevant products. The Tobacco and Related Products Regulations 2016 require producers to notify the Government when they place or intend to place nicotine-containing vapes in refill containers and tobacco products in the UK market. Regulation 31 deals with refill containers and regulation 22 deals with tobacco products. Producers must make their submissions to DHSC for products to be sold in England, whereas in Scotland, the Medicine and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency is responsible for publishing these notifications.
Is the MHRA the right organisation for this? We heard in evidence that when some consumers see that a product has been regulated by the Medicine and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency, they believe the product to have been medically tested for safety, which is not the case. They are not tested to the same standard as the other products that the MHRA tests, such as medicines to be prescribed by the doctor or chemist. It is misleading; I wonder whether the Minister also thinks it is misleading. In her evidence, Dr Laura Squire said that it concerned her. For Northern Ireland, the EU common entry gate for producers can be used to place products on the Northern Ireland market. The notification does not currently apply to nicotine-containing vapes and refill containers, so this clause is an improvement.
Clause 95(1) allows the Secretary of State to make regulations to establish a register for products such as tobacco products, tobacco-related devices, herbal smoking products, cigarette papers, vaping products and nicotine products. Subsection (2) provides that these regulations
“may impose prohibitions or limitations on the supply of an unregistered product in the course of business.”
Subsection (3) outlines the matters that the regulations may address, including who will maintain the register, who will be eligible to be registered, and the need for producers to provide information to the registrar. Regulations may also cover the content of the register, the expiry, renewal, cancellation or suspension of a product’s registration, and the publication of the register. Furthermore, the regulations may set fees for registration or continued registration, which could be used to cover the cost of administering the provisions.
We heard in evidence that although products are registered, there is no ongoing monitoring of those registered products. We have seen examples where even supermarkets have been selling products that did not meet the requirements of notification. What will the Minister do to ensure that the regulations he produces can be adequately adhered to and enforced?
Subsection (4) specifies that regulations made under the clause may require producers to provide various types of information, such as reasons for including ingredients in a product, images of the product or its packaging, information about the risks, details about substances released into the body, information about the producer’s operations, and details about any nominated responsible person. That all sounds sensible, but we are asking the industry to mark its own homework. I wonder if the Minister has any comments on how reliable industry-provided information might be on some of these, particularly in relation to risk, because the history of the industry is not strong in that area.
Subsection (5) clarifies that the regulations may allow the retention of payment of register fees into the Consolidated Fund, which we discussed last week. Subsection (6) reiterates that the regulations made under the clause will be subject to the affirmative resolution procedure, which we have also talked about.
What is the rationale for the intervention in this clause? As I understand it, to support a compliant market, it is important that we have products that are registered and can be shown to meet the regulations. This clause will help to ensure that legitimate products are available to sale and will let retailers know what the products are.
Dr Johnson
I am suggesting that there is a difference between regulating a product as a medicine, which requires stringent steps, and a statement of what the product does, the effect it is going to have on the body, the claims made about it, and why it is safe, or safer than having the problem that it is treating. Some drugs make people quite unwell but people are willing to trade off being unwell for being cured. For example, cancer drugs make people very poorly at times, but it is considered better to have chemotherapy than cancer, because cancer leads to fatality. That process lets a consumer know that the product has been robustly tested and that the quality is there. On an ongoing basis, someone is checking that the paracetamol bought from a supermarket contains the ingredients that it says it contains on the packet. This notification process does not do that. It says to a company, “Come along and tell us what’s in it. We’ll believe you. Thank you very much. We’re not going to check and we’ll hope it’s all right.” That is a weak process.
It is not surprising that there is a weaker process for a consumer product than for a medical product. However, having it also done by the MHRA could lead consumers to believe that the vapes have gone through the first process and not the second process. I think that is misleading—some of the Minister’s hon. Friends are nodding vigorously—and was something brought up by the MHRA itself in response to, I think, my question. The MHRA answered that this could mislead consumers to think that it is medical regulation of vapes when it is not. There is only a point in having a register if it will be used to achieve something. Having a list of stuff does not make a great deal of difference if no one is going to check that the list is accurate, and I cannot see that there is any great step to say that the list is accurate. What comes with a register is important, as well as the register itself.
The rationale, as I understand it, of the register is to support the compliant market by having products registered and shown to be meeting the regulations. Again, I understand that this registers that a company has said that it complies with the regulations but I cannot see where the provisions say that there is anyone checking. That may be something that the Minister will add, maybe in relation to later clauses.
The aim of the register is to help to ensure legitimate products are available for sale, and to let retailers know what they are. When a retailer—a chap running a corner shop—wants to buy some of these products to sell, and he has a licence, and he has checked people’s ages under the provisions of the earlier clauses, and he wants to sell the product, he wants reassurance that the product is genuine and not illicit. Checking this register for that product would be a step that a reasonable retailer can take to check the product is legit, or at least said to be legit.
Both industry and enforcement agencies have asked the Government to update the current notification systems. Although that was not part of the consultation process, I understand—and the Minister can perhaps clarify this—that subsequent consultation will be required to better inform the new registration system and its implementation.
The Government would like to ensure that non-nicotine vapes and other nicotine products being sold in the UK market are subject to the current notification requirements of nicotine vapes. That is in line with the consultation undertaken by the previous Government in 2023, when the majority of responses were in favour of regulating all non-nicotine vapes and other nicotine products under a similar regulatory framework as nicotine vapes. Again, I ask the Minister to consider whether the MHRA is the best organisation to be providing that service if it is not doing what most of the public may consider it is doing?
At the moment, if enforcement agencies find that the product is notified as not being compliant with regulations, they are unable to update the notification accordingly. The new powers will ensure that the register of products can be updated, and therefore that items can be removed if they are not meeting requirements. To ensure that we can effectively monitor the products and support enforcement, it is necessary for the Government to have the power to introduce the registration regime. I am not against the principle of that, but I think it needs to be well thought through. Perhaps it will be when it comes to the regulations in the statutory instrument—when we no doubt meet again. Adding regulations in general is not necessarily a welcome thing, but in that case it may be useful.
There will be some costs to industry, due to measures including product registration requirements, particularly on non-nicotine vapes and other nicotine products. That may put off producers with lower standards and may improve the general safety standard of the industry, but it is also possible that those with lower standards will not bother, so the Minister needs to explain what the plan is for that—and also the plans for factories.
The registration requirements will also mean that consumers can access more information on non-nicotine vapes and other nicotine products. I ask the Minister: will consumers have access to the information on what all the ingredients are? Will there be thought given to people with allergies who wish to use those products? There may be a cost to companies that have to request information from their suppliers and gather existing data on non-nicotine vapes and other nicotine products. Companies will also have to spend resources on completing the required paperwork.
Based on the impact assessment for the Tobacco and Related Products Regulations, I understand that the Government expect those tasks to take between 10 and 15 hours per notification, plus or minus any translations or translation costs that may be required. Given that any companies notifying the UK will be selling or operating in the UK, translation costs should be negligible. Therefore, it will be 10 to 15 hours work, plus currently a small fee of £150 to notify of a nicotine-containing vape product. There is also a fee for tobacco and herbal products set at £200, a fee for any modifications at £100, and a further annual reporting fee of £100.
A new fee will be imposed to register products, which will likely be in line with the current fees for tobacco, herbal and nicotine-vape products. Non-nicotine vape products and other nicotine products that were not subject to notification of fees will be charged a fee to register, with the amount to be determined through further consultation. That is another case where essentially what is happening is that the Government are taking a lot of power to do things, but not being terribly explicit about what they intend to do with them. While the Minister said that he is going to go like the clappers, we still have no clear indication of how fast those clappers are clapping away.
For potential new information requirements, there may be additional costs with acquiring that information. Some manufacturers may already collect new information, in which case there will be no additional costs other than staff time spent collating and submitting. Those costs may be more burdensome for smaller companies. The changes will be achieved through secondary legislation, which will be subject to consultation to determine what information should be notified, how the registration will operate, the process for any non-publication of notification and the level of fees associated with costs administering the system.
The impact assessment says that the Bill will also give the industry enough time for businesses to make any changes before the future regulations come into force. Again, the Government are saying that they are going to give enough time, and they are going to go like the clappers. But how fast are the clappers going and how much time is enough for industry? I still do not think we have any idea.
I have a couple of questions. In subsection (3)(a), where the regulations make a provision about who is to keep the register, will the Government clarify what that Government body or third-party private entity will be? Will it be the MHRA, or will it be something else?
Subsection (3)(b) gives the Secretary of State power to regulate eligibility for registration. There is room for debate about what constitutes eligibility and whether small businesses or new entrants will face excessive regulatory hurdles. The power may also raise concerns about what happens if a product or business fails to meet the requirements. Will they be shut out of the market? Will they be forced to make changes? How will that work?
Paragraphs (c) and (d) of subsection (4) require producers to provide information about potential risks to human health and substances released by products, but the wording is relatively broad and could raise questions about how tobacco and nicotine product manufacturers will assess and report risks. What level of scientific evidence will be required? How will they balance transparency with proprietary information or concerns about trade secrets? What will happen if the product risk assessment is disputed, and how will disputes be resolved?
We may have a situation where the vape manufacturer says that their product and the flavourings are safe but the evidence from medical professionals suggests otherwise. Will they provide the information themselves or will they fund other people to do it? Will that be done under a general pool, or will it be specific to that product at that time? How much influence will the industry have over the results? If we ask a specific question, we will get closer to the answer we want.
In the case of vaping products specifically, the health risks are not yet fully known. It is fair to say that there is some debate on the matter, even among respected authorities. The American Lung Association claims that vaping is linked to a condition called popcorn lung, and the Harvard Medical School lists popcorn lung under the risks of vaping. However, the NHS and Cancer Research assert that vaping does not cause popcorn lung, so there is a dispute. Clearly, more research is needed, but in the meantime how will the regulations in the clause address an issue like this?
Subsection (5) introduces the idea of fees for registration, including provisions that allow the fees collected to reflect the cost of regulation. It raises issues about how the fees may affect small and independent producers in a market that is taxed. Do we have any indication about what the fees may be? Could the cost of registration become prohibitive for small companies and push them out of the market? Will there be mechanisms to ensure that the fees are not too burdensome for newer and small businesses, or is the intention to limit the number of products on the market by making the fees higher so that we get a smaller number of products and are therefore more able to regulate and assess what is in each of them?
Andrew Gwynne
I welcome this debate because it raises some important questions. First, we have had a long discussion about the MHRA, and under the existing legislation it is the appropriate body. I want to make one thing very clear by emphasising the point that the shadow Minister rightly made and that the MHRA also made in giving evidence to us on the first day of the Committee: no medically approved vape is available. Vapes being registered through the MHRA does not make them medically approved for health purposes. It is really important to keep emphasising that no vape currently available in shops in any part of the United Kingdom is medically approved for health purposes by the MHRA.
I take very seriously the point the shadow Minister makes about whether the MHRA is the appropriate body going forward for this aspect of the registration scheme. We are considering how a more rigorous registration scheme can best be delivered given the nature of these products, which I again emphasise are not healthcare products. We are scoping a potential new home for the registration scheme. Officials at DHSC and the Office for Product Safety and Standards have already met to discuss learning and best practice from other product registration schemes. I hope that gives some hope to Members. While the MHRA is currently the appropriate body, at some stage we might well decide that it is not necessarily the best place for this new registration scheme to sit.
Dr Johnson
I thank the Minister for that. I am grateful that he is looking for a new home for the regulation that more accurately reflects what is being done.
Mr Barros-Curtis
I agree that that sounds promising. I am sure that the Minister and his officials are all over this, but to be clear, will the Bill as drafted give them the requisite flexibility? In two years’ time, should that change have happened, could the requisite regulations be drafted to bring that into effect without needing to come back to the House?
Andrew Gwynne
Yes, that is absolutely the case.
On the shadow Minister’s question about the ingredients in the vape—or any other product, for that matter—if those turn out to be different from those in the register, I reiterate that the product could be eligible for complete removal from the register until the information is updated. That is precisely the measure that enforcement agencies have asked for to give them the greater clout that they need when it comes to non-compliance: once those products are removed from the register, they would not be permitted for sale—end of.
Dr Johnson
Let us look back to the issues of the Elfbar items that had, as I understand it, a higher number of milligrams per millilitre—certainly a higher nicotine content—than they were supposed to. If there is no penalty other than being removed from the register until the information is updated, could not someone less reputable say, “Well, I’ll put on what I want to put on; if I get caught, I will at that point say what is really in it and go straight back on the market”? Is a period of not being able to sell the product envisaged? Is a stiff fine envisaged? What is the penalty envisaged or will the register simply have to be updated?
Andrew Gwynne
As the clause stands, the product would be removed from the register and could not be sold. Alongside that, we aim to establish a testing regime to check regularly that products on the shelves are what they say they are. That will help to support overall enforcement and ensure that all registered products are safe for consumers. As with other matters, all will be set out in regulations, subject to consultation. Ultimately, all this is down to the regulation-making powers. All of part 5 basically sets out the framework for what can be done in future, subject to regulations.
On the point about ingredients—the shadow Minister made this point twice, in particular about people who may be allergic to certain aspects of the ingredients in a product—under the TRPR, products already need to list the ingredients. We have sought to introduce powers, which we covered during our debates on the earlier clauses, whereby Ministers would be able to request even more information on packets or products, should that be deemed necessary. We have the measures already in place through the TRPR on publishing the ingredients. Were Ministers in future to decide that a particular compound was highly allergic to certain people so there needed to be further warnings on packets, they would have the power to make the necessary alteration through the usual processes of consultation and secondary legislation.
Dr Johnson
Will the Minister clarify whether the regulations require someone to print the ingredients in full on the vape packet, on the vape itself, on a website or on all three?
Andrew Gwynne
I will get back to the shadow Minister on that because I suspect that the House is about to divide, and I need a bit of inspiration from the box on the exact answer. I would not want to mislead the Committee inadvertently.
Clause 103 covers offences to provide false or misleading information. It will allow for the punishment of imprisonment or a fine, or both. I hope that covers the concern.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 95 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.
The Lord Commissioner of His Majesty’s Treasury (Taiwo Owatemi)
Further to that point of order, Mr Dowd. To let the Committee know, last week I gave the Opposition a week’s notice, and I shared it again this morning. It should have been shared.
Gregory Stafford
Further to that point of order, Mr Dowd. Generally, such things are agreed between the Whips, but it was not agreed on our side. I put back a counterproposal that I thought was reasonable, and no response was received from the Government Whip.
Taiwo Owatemi
Further to that point of order, Mr Dowd. I made it very clear that I was not going to accept that proposal, and I explained last week why not. Again, I outlined the Government proposal. The counteroffer did not meet halfway; in essence, it stuck to the Opposition proposals. At the end of the day, I decided that we had a clear target of what we are trying to achieve, and we wanted to give Members reasonable time to discuss the Bill.
Dr Johnson
Further to that point of order, Mr Dowd. I am confused about what the Opposition wish to achieve—[Interruption.] Sorry, the Government. It was the Government’s programme motion, which the Government produced and in which the Government suggested that we had a certain number of days and sittings. The Government had the numbers to decide how many sittings were allocated. Having allocated all those sittings, why have the Government suddenly decided that they want to complete the Bill in Committee three days early?
Taiwo Owatemi
Further to that point of order, Mr Dowd. We want the Committee to be able to discuss the new clauses. We are not finishing today; we are just trying to get to the new clauses, which will still need to be debated.
Dr Johnson
Further to that point of order, Mr Dowd. Will the Chair clarify how many new clauses there are, and how many of the new clauses have already been debated?
Dr Johnson
On a point of order, Mr Dowd. To clarify, there are 10 new clauses and we have already debated: new clause 1, when we were debating clause 91 earlier today; new clause 3, which we debated with clause 1; and new clause 10, which we debated with clause 10. That means that the Government have made a decision —I am sure that the Minister will correct me if I am wrong—that they will need to do seven new clauses over a period of three days, and all the remaining 50 clauses this evening. I am not sure that that is a reasonable expectation of civil service and House staff.
The Chair
Order. I will call the Government Whip, but then I am going to leave it at that, because it is not for the Chair to go outside the usual channels.
Taiwo Owatemi
Given the fact that we spent hours debating just one clause, the Government cannot be certain that we will finish on time, because of the pace at which Opposition are going. To ensure that we finish on time, we are doing our best to ensure that Members of this House have the time needed to debate the Bill, hence why we decided that we should get to the new clauses.
The Chair
I will just leave it at that. I repeat, I wanted people to be aware of that, for clarity about their timings, understanding, domestic commitments and all the rest of it. The issue of discussions through the usual channels is a matter for those discussions through the usual channels; it is not a matter for me.
Clause 96
Information
Gregory Stafford
Yes, absolutely. I think the shadow Minister is completely right. There is that point, in terms of potential fear—if that is the right word—for this person if they are not in a senior position. Indeed, some of the less scrupulous companies may seek to intimidate said compliance officer. Also, to be frank, a lack of expertise in this area could lead to ineffective compliance oversight. While that is something undesirable in and of itself, it can also potentially have negative impacts on the consumer.
Finally, could the Minister say a bit about the potential legal-liability issues of this person? Nominating a single individual raises questions about personal legal liability. Will this individual be legally responsible for compliance —or non-compliance—or will that be the chief executive or someone else, or will there be corporate responsibility or liability for breaches of the standards? I really think that provisions should be in place to ensure that the company—the manufacturer, the producer—bears the ultimate responsibility, rather than this named individual.
The clause needs a clear set of qualifications and criteria regarding the experience of said responsible person. We should make sure that the accountability is structured to prevent scapegoating of individuals, as the shadow Minister has mentioned, and some kind of training programme is in place to support those compliance officers in their roles so that they can enact their duties responsibly. We should also ensure that, should something go wrong, it is the company that holds ultimate responsibility and liability in law rather than that individual.
Andrew Gwynne
I am grateful for this discussion today, and particularly for the amendments tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Dartford. His amendments would require the Government to make regulations under clause 96 within six months of Royal Assent to the Bill, and for the required information to be published.
I am really sympathetic towards attempts to increase transparency in the tobacco industry, and we take our obligations as a party to the World Health Organisation framework convention on tobacco control very seriously. Indeed, we take our membership of the WHO very seriously, and, given events on the other side of the pond this week, I think it needs a champion on the world stage. Multilateralism works, and the globe is a better place for having the World Health Organisation. It is not perfect and it needs reform—like a lot of major multilateral organisations—but if we did not have the WHO, we would have to invent something pretty similar to it.
Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Eleventh sitting)
(Limited Text - Ministerial Extracts only)
Read Full debateThursday 23rd January 2025
(1 year, 6 months ago)
Public Bill CommitteesTobacco and Vapes Act 2026 Read Hansard Text Amendment Paper: Public Bill Committee Amendments as at 23 January 2025 - (23 Jan 2025)
This text is a record of ministerial contributions to a debate held as part of the Tobacco and Vapes Act 2026 passage through Parliament.
In 1993, the House of Lords Pepper vs. Hart decision provided that statements made by Government Ministers may be taken as illustrative of legislative intent as to the interpretation of law.
This extract highlights statements made by Government Ministers along with contextual remarks by other members. The full debate can be read here
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
Dr Johnson
Clause 100 concerns product safety, which is important. Even when a product is not safe, it should still be as safe as it can be and should contain only those things that are expected. When Lincolnshire police took a sample of vape devices from children from a school in my constituency, they found that many of the vapes contained dangerous ingredients that should not have been in there, including, in one case, I believe, an ingredient banned in the UK for many decades.
Clause 100 is important: the Minister must ensure that items on the market are safe. I come back to the evidence from Dr Laura Squire from the MHRA. She said that licensing a medical product does not mean that it is safe, and that these vapes are not medical products either. I am grateful to the Minister for saying in the last session that he is looking for a new home for the licensing and registration process for vapes and vaping products, because “MHRA-registered” suggests to the consumer that those things are in some way safer and more fully tested than they have been.
Clause 100 suggests very sensible regulation, but it gives the Minister the power to do that without significant oversight, even though the affirmative procedure applies. Since clause 90, all the Bill has done is to confer powers on the Secretary of State to regulate without actually providing a huge amount of detail on the Secretary of State’s intent. One never knows what the intent of a future Secretary of State could be in this regard.
Will the Minister comment on why regulation will be in secondary legislation rather than being detailed in the Bill? I understand the need to be agile and to think quickly to try to stay ahead of an industry that will try to adapt to addict more people to nicotine in other forms, but it would have been possible for the Minister to put much of that detail in the Bill, and to have taken a power in a final clause to amend parts of those regulations by statutory instrument. Most of the intent and most of the regulation would then have been known very quickly, but could be altered and adapted later. Why has the Minister taken the approach that he has, rather than a more up-front approach?
Clause 100(1)(a) requires
“producers or importers to have processes in place”.
Again, this is an important point. Most of these products seem to be made overseas, where of course the UK courts do not have jurisdiction. It is at the point of import, and with regards to the person who is importing, that we may need to be more responsible than with a producer where the items are made overseas.
I also urge the Minister, echoing the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Farnham and Bordon, to consider online sales. We see already that some regulations that are in place for the real world rather than the virtual world create loopholes for regulations to be circumvented. Clearly, public safety has to be the Government’s first priority. The testing in clause 99 and the product safety regulations in clause 100 are a welcome initiative, but clearly the devil will be in the detail and the detail is not available to us today.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Care (Andrew Gwynne)
I am sorry that your croakiness is getting the better of you, Sir Roger, but hopefully you will be on fine form tomorrow for the private Member’s Bills—I am not sure whether the Whips on either side of the House are praying for that.
On clauses 99 and 100, I will go through the questions posed by the shadow Minister and the hon. Member for Farnham and Bordon. It is the responsibility of trading standards to test products if they believe a product contains illegal substances or could contain too much nicotine. Trading standards currently test products on an ad-hoc basis, which is contingent on funding. We aim to establish a testing regime to regularly check that products on the shelves are what they say they are. That will support overall enforcement, will ensure that registered products are safe for consumers and will allow retailers, in both brick-and-mortar establishments and online, to have greater clarity about and confidence in the products that they are able to stock to sale.
It is really important to consider online sales as a growing area. These measures have to be taken within the wider context of clauses and measures that we have already debated, in that any product for sale in the United Kingdom, whether in a shop or online, will have to be registered, and any retailer, whether a shop or online, will have to have the appropriate licences in place. There are clear and substantial penalties for breaching those licensing arrangements, and there are real and substantial consequences for selling products that are not in accordance with the descriptions on the registration of those products. When all of that is put into context, and testing is added in, we believe that this will be a robust regime.
Dr Johnson
Clauses 101 and 102 deal with the treatment of, and matters dealt with by, the 2016 tobacco regulations. Again, they provide the Secretary of State with powers to make regulations. Whether or not that will be done well, we are not really sure at this stage.
I understand the point the Minister made in response to the last debate, and it is of course true that regulations can be different in each part of the United Kingdom. In his discussions with Ministers in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, they may have wished to proceed with regulations after the Bill, rather than to put them on the face of the Bill. However, that does not explain why the Minister has chosen to do the same, and I would be grateful if he could explain his choice to make regulations after the Bill, rather than to put them on the face of the Bill, with the power to modify. I ask particularly because we are now into, I think, the 12th consecutive clause that provides powers to regulate and that offers detail only on what any regulations might or might not say, rather than necessarily on what they will say.
In that vein, clause 101 outlines provisions to allow the Secretary of State to make regulations similar to, or corresponding with, the Tobacco and Related Products Regulations 2016. That is to be done under a new regulatory framework, which would seem to be designed to cover gaps that may exist in the powers under those regulations. Subsection (1) says:
“The Secretary of State may by regulations make provision…that is similar to or that corresponds to any provision of the Tobacco and Related Products Regulations 2016…other than Part 7 of those Regulations”.
Part 7 of those regulations deals with electronic cigarette advertising. The Minister may feel that later parts of the Bill will deal adequately with this point, but I would be grateful if he could explain why that part has been taken out. That is not instinctive, because other aspects of those regulations could be too. What is the reason for excluding that part? Otherwise, I have no particular points to make about clauses 101 and 102.
Andrew Gwynne
Clause 101 allows the Secretary of State to make regulations similar to any provisions set out in the Tobacco and Related Products Regulations 2016 —the TRPR, which we discussed in our debate on the earlier clauses—thereby amending them if needed.
In 2016, the TRPR implemented the 2014 EU tobacco products directive. The TRPR deals with the manufacture, presentation and sale of tobacco and related products, including herbal products for smoking, nicotine, vapes and refill containers, as well as smokeless and novel tobacco products. However, it does not regulate all products. As we know, new nicotine products such as nicotine pouches have emerged on the market—we discussed such things in our earlier deliberations—and we currently have no powers to change the regulations. We are also limited in what we can do within the existing powers—for example, on vape packaging.
The Bill builds on the TRPR and allows us to go much further, with new powers on, for instance, packaging and flavour requirements, and new registration powers that could be extended to non-nicotine vapes, nicotine pouches, heated tobacco devices and cigarette papers. As we have ascertained, the tobacco and vaping industries are extremely innovative and have previously attempted to circumvent regulations and exploit loopholes. The clause helps to stop them doing that by allowing us to amend the TRPR if necessary.
Clause 102 enables regulations to be made under powers in part 5 of the Bill to amend provisions in the Tobacco and Related Products Regulations that are within scope of those powers. This is a technical provision because, as I said in the previous debate, we have limited powers to amend the TRPR. For instance, if we introduce new vape packaging requirements using powers in the Bill, the clause will allow us to amend the TRPR if necessary, so that the new packaging requirements fit with those imposed under the TRPR.
The shadow Minister raised issues relating to secondary legislation. The technical and detailed nature of many of the Bill’s requirements means that they are not suitable to be put on the face of the Bill. For example, we may need to amend those requirements in response to market changes. It is also necessary to include detail on the circumstances of when products must be recalled, which will change over time.
There is a broader point here: with all the regulations that we propose to bring before Parliament, we want to get the measures right. We have a statutory duty in the Bill to consult before bringing in regulations, which is in part why we are making the measures in the way that we are. Part 7 of the TRPR is excluded because those things will now be in part 6 of the Bill. I commend the clauses to the Committee.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 101 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clauses 102 to 104 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 105
Sub-delegation
Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
Dr Johnson
Clause 105 states:
“Regulations under this Part may confer discretions.”
I confess that I do not understand what that means. I would be grateful for the Minister’s explanation.
Clause 106 is about the power to make provision binding on the Crown, which we have discussed at some length. My only point is on subsection (4), which clarifies that public servants are still accountable under the regulations. Some may have concerns about the enforcement of regulations within Government bodies. Could the Minister say anything further on that?
Clause 107 gives the Secretary of State power to make amendments to this legislation through regulations. It is quite a broad and flexible position: the Government can remove outdated laws that are inconsistent with new regulations established under the Bill and ensure that the regulatory framework can evolve. To some extent, that makes sense. Again, the Government seem to be keen to ensure that they can stay one step ahead of a very adaptable industry and try to protect the country from nicotine addiction. However, the clause is quite broad. I would be grateful if the Minister could further elaborate on his intent in it.
Clause 108 provides for the consequential removal of section 94 of the Children and Families Act 2014 because it is no longer needed. Clause 109 is about enforcement.
Clause 110 is about the consultation process. The requirement to consult before making regulations promotes transparency and accountability in the decision-making process and allows for adjustments and feedback from various groups, in the same way that line-by-line scrutiny of the Bill allows adjustment in line with discussion. It ensures that regulations are fair and based on a broad range of insights and evidence. However, I would be keen for the consultation not to be so long as to delay bringing in the regulations. As I have said before, much of the Bill hinges on the regulations the Government can provide. If the consultation processes are very long and drawn out, it could be a long time before any of these measures come into force to protect our children, in particular.
Andrew Gwynne
Sub-delegation allows functions to be carried out by someone who is not named in the primary legislation. We believe that that is vital for flexible implementation of Government policy and to keep the wheels of Government turning. Sub-delegation is a long-accepted part of the legislative process, and having the ability to allow technical experts to undertake technical tasks, or to set out very detailed technical criteria in guidance instead of using parliamentary resource, will allow us to get on with implementing the measures in part 5 of the Bill.
The shadow Minister is right to be concerned about having safeguards to ensure that any sub-delegation of authority is not abused. Sub-delegation to persons must be set out in regulations. As I have previously said, there is also a statutory duty to consult on any regulations made under part 5. The regulations will be subject to the affirmative procedure, meaning that Parliament will have an opportunity to consider any sub-delegation before the regulations take legal effect.
On the wider consultation the shadow Minister referred to, the Government chose to include consultation clauses because we want valuable input from different stakeholders on our proposals before they are introduced. As is conventional with such clauses in primary legislation, the clause does not prescribe the specific people the Secretary of State must consult. That is to ensure that the Government can consult appropriate stakeholders, and the list may evolve over time.
UK-wide regulations made under part 5 might deal with devolved matters. The UK Government are therefore required to seek consent from the devolved Governments. My Department will continue to work closely with the devolved Governments on proposals for UK-wide regulation of products. I therefore commend the clauses to the Committee.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 105 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clauses 106 to 113 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 114
Publishing advertisements
Dr Johnson
I beg to move amendment 87, in clause 114, page 63, line 16, after “product,” insert
“except for the public health purpose of promoting vaping as a cessation tool for existing tobacco smokers,”.
This amendment would allow vapes to be promoted as a quit-aid/public health measure.
Jack Rankin
I am going to make some progress. Even judging by the Government’s own standards, we should be treating vaped tobacco and heated tobacco very differently from cigarettes. We should be a little careful about the unintended consequences of this measure, and I hope the Minister can say how he might consult other bodies to look at those unintended consequences.
I have a small concern with the internet services measure in clause 119. Again, it seems that the Government’s aims in this legislation is to prevent targeted communication on vapes and nicotine products to adult smokers, such as via emails or digital channels, which can reach them directly. I understand the point about not wanting to aim such communication at children, but targeted communication, such as using people’s internet search history, could be an effective means of encouraging smokers to quit. I mentioned a few weeks ago the work that NHS Essex is doing with a vaping company, targeted at adult smokers. I do not think the Government, in achieving their aims of a smoke-free generation, should be too prescriptive on this.
Andrew Gwynne
I am grateful to hon. Members for our discussion on amendment 87 and subsequent clauses. These amendments intend to make an exemption under the advertisement ban to allow vaping products to be promoted by businesses as a smoking cessation tool for existing tobacco smokers. I am sympathetic to the shadow Minister’s intention behind the amendment to ensure that smokers are encouraged to use vapes as a quit aid. That is why the Bill as drafted will continue to support the promotion of vaping as a quit aid for smokers through the appropriate channels. By “appropriate channels”, I say to the hon. Lady that we mean public health authorities.
Dr Johnson
I want to clarify one small point, if I have not made myself completely clear. On a personal level, I do not particularly want people to be persuaded to go from smoking to vaping, because I think it is an alternative addiction that they will get stuck on. I would much prefer them to be directed towards other forms of nicotine replacement therapy, which will be effective and more short lived. However, given that the current medical advice is that vaping is better, I think it is important that it is available.
Andrew Gwynne
I get that the shadow Minister is dancing on a pinhead, but she has brought to the Committee a set of amendments for which that would be the purpose. If they are pushed to a vote, I am sure we will have the bewilderment of the shadow Minister yet again abstaining on measures that the shadow Minister has brought before the Committee.
We believe it is for public health authorities to promote vaping as a quit aid for current smokers. For example, local stop smoking services will continue to be able to promote vapes to smokers as a less harmful alternative following the passage of the Bill. We strongly believe that any promotion of vaping as a way to quit smoking is best led and delivered by the appropriate authorities, such as local stop smoking services, public health professionals and the national health service.
The clauses in part 6 of the Bill, taken in totality, will form a complete ban on advertising and sponsorship for tobacco products, herbal smoking products, cigarette papers, vaping products and nicotine products, bringing them all in line with tobacco. It is unacceptable that children are exposed to vape adverts on the sides of buses and in shop windows when they make their way to school.
Clauses 114 to 117 make it an offence for anyone
“acting in the course of business”
to publish, design, print or distribute an advertisement
“whose purpose or effect is to promote”
a relevant product within the Bill. Upon conviction, anyone who has committed an offence under part 6 will be liable to a fine, imprisonment or both. These clauses are an essential part of the overall suite of restrictions that will ban advertising of relevant products within the UK. Taken together they will ensure that even if someone has not designed or published an advert, it will still be an offence to print or distribute that advert. This is key to stopping their eventual distribution. I hope that answers the questions about whether there is a loophole allowing adverts produced for international markets to be distributed in the United Kingdom. The distribution of those adverts will be an offence.
Clause 118 makes it an offence to cause the offences I have just set out. It would be an offence if a person “knows or has reason to suspect” that they are causing these things, whereas if someone unknowingly delivered a package containing leaflets, they would not be guilty of the offence. Without this clause, it would be possible to instruct others to publish, design, print or distribute adverts without committing an offence. Clearly, we need to ensure that it is also an offence to cause these things to happen.
Lastly, clause 119 makes it an offence to provide an internet service in the course of a business by means of which an advert for a relevant product is published or distributed. This would mean that an organisation that provides a service to a person—for example, Sky or TalkTalk—would commit an offence if they provided a service that enabled the online advertisements to happen and if they permitted that space to be used to promote relevant products. That could include becoming aware that the service is hosting a vape advert and subsequently failing to take that advert down. This is particularly important, as young people, and some not-so-young—we now know that, if we have a hoof that needs trimming, the hon. Member for Farnham and Bordon is our man, although I am not sure whether he provides the service or just passes the request on—
Andrew Gwynne
Clause 119 is important, as children spend a lot of time online and therefore are more exposed to a variety of internet services. It is unacceptable that a child using the internet to study might be exposed to a variety of vape adverts. We need to take action to stop these products being deliberately advertised to children, to protect future generations from becoming hooked on nicotine.
The shadow Minister’s amendments would in theory allow any shops or businesses to advertise vaping products to existing tobacco smokers. It would be incredibly difficult to target the advertisement of vaping products to current smokers alone, without the risk of children and non-smokers seeing the promotional material. That would not only make enforcement complicated, but make the messaging about the ban inconsistent. Research on tobacco advertising bans has shown that comprehensive bans were significantly more effective than partial restrictions in reducing smoking rates.
Hon. Members has posed a number of questions, which I will address. What constitutes an advert and how will the decisions be made? The Advertising Standards Authority is the regulator, and it will take a proportionate approach. All adverts are captured. Decisions on whether something is an advert will be made on a case-by-case basis, and it is for the ASA to decide. If the purpose or effect of something is to promote a product, it will most likely be captured. I say to the hon. Member for Windsor, “Worry not”: the ASA knows how the internet works, because it is dealing with it daily, and as we speak.
How does liability work? The offence will be charged on a case-by-case basis. In most cases, we expect that this will involve a company. The ASA is experienced in making decisions on tobacco restrictions at the moment, and the provision merely extends the powers and responsibilities that it is already undertaking with regard to a variety of other products. On social media influencers, it depends on how the ASA approaches the matter; if it decides that something is constituted as an advert, action can be taken. Nobody is above the law of the United Kingdom.
The hon. Member for Windsor asked why we are making changes to the law without consulting. To be clear, tobacco adverts are already banned under the Tobacco Advertising and Promotion Act 2002, and the provisions in part 6 of the Bill will simply maintain the existing ban on tobacco advertisements. We were elected with a mandate to carry out our manifesto commitments, one of which was to stop the advertising of vapes to children. We already know that the measures to restrict vape advertising are strongly supported: 74% of adults in Great Britain support banning the advertising and promotion of e-cigarettes at point of sale, at the till, in stores and as people enter shops, and only 6% are opposed.
Does aligning vapes with tobacco in this area contribute to misconceptions that vapes are just as harmful as tobacco? Although the approach towards vapes and towards tobacco will align in this area, our future regulations on other vape measures will be carefully considered so that there is a clear difference between these products. Given that vapes are less harmful than tobacco, we do not intend to treat them in exactly the same way as tobacco. To be clear, there is no more dangerous product that is legally sold in our shops than tobacco—a product that kills two thirds of its users—but we do not want to inadvertently addict a new generation to nicotine. That is the reason for the advertising measures.
Will the ban on the advertising of heated tobacco products increase the demand for traditional cigarettes? The Department’s opinion is that heated tobacco products are covered under the 2002 Act, which prohibits the advertisement and sponsorship of tobacco products. The new definition just ensures clarity on the scope of the legislation, as well as future-proofing policy. This is not a new ban; we believe that the existing tobacco advertising ban appertains to heated tobacco products in any case.
We very much want people to give up all forms of tobacco. That is why this Government have invested a further £70 million for smoking cessation services in the new financial year, and why I maintain that, although we are saying to tobacco companies, “This is as good as it gets,” we will move heaven and earth to shrink their customer base even further with appropriate smoking cessation. With that, I ask the shadow Minister to withdraw her amendment, and commend the clauses to the Committee.
Dr Johnson
The Minister knows that I believe strongly that we need to stop people smoking, because of its dangers, and that we need to stop children from taking up any form of nicotine, because we have heard how harmful nicotine is to them. He will also be aware of my argument—which I made in relation to the previous iteration of the Bill—that advertising, marketing and sponsorship should be included to reduce the appeal of the products to children. I support the clauses, but I was keen to debate how smoking cessation services will be able to discuss these products. The Minister has been reasonably, if not absolutely, clear on that, so I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 114 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clauses 115 to 119 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Ordered, That further consideration be now adjourned. —(Taiwo Owatemi.)
Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Twelfth sitting)
(Limited Text - Ministerial Extracts only)
Read Full debateThursday 23rd January 2025
(1 year, 6 months ago)
Public Bill CommitteesTobacco and Vapes Act 2026 Read Hansard Text Amendment Paper: Public Bill Committee Amendments as at 23 January 2025 - (23 Jan 2025)
This text is a record of ministerial contributions to a debate held as part of the Tobacco and Vapes Act 2026 passage through Parliament.
In 1993, the House of Lords Pepper vs. Hart decision provided that statements made by Government Ministers may be taken as illustrative of legislative intent as to the interpretation of law.
This extract highlights statements made by Government Ministers along with contextual remarks by other members. The full debate can be read here
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
The Chair
With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
Clause 121 stand part.
Government amendment 1.
Clause 122 stand part.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Care (Andrew Gwynne)
It is good to see you back in the Chair, Mr Dowd. These clauses concern the defences and exemptions to the advertising bans on relevant products—tobacco products, herbal smoking products, cigarette papers, vaping products and nicotine products—as set out in clauses 114 to 119, which we have just debated.
Clause 120 sets out three situations in which someone has a defence to the advertising bans. Those are trade adverts, sending information in response to a request and adverts for outside the United Kingdom. The clause sets out that adverts contained only in communications between members of specific, relevant trades in the course of business will have a defence if charged with an offence. For example, a vaping company could send promotional materials to someone responsible for buying products to sell, but that would otherwise be banned if aimed at members of the public. Similarly, a defence exists if the advert is contained in a publication that is not printed or intended to be marketed in the UK. The final defence is that if businesses receive a direct request about their products, they are permitted to respond to that request with material that would legally be considered an advert.
Clause 121 restates existing law that allows specialist tobacconists to advertise specialist products in their shops. Specialist tobacconists will therefore be exempt from the restrictions on advertisements in part 6 of the Bill, provided that their adverts meet certain criteria, such as being visible only inside the shop. The clause empowers the appropriate national authority in each of the devolved Administrations to make regulations to specify what health warnings and information must be included in the adverts. Specialist tobacconists make up a tiny percentage of the market in the UK and are focused on specialist products such as pipes and cigars, and this exemption reflects the specialist nature of the trade carried out by these shops. However, tobacco is a uniquely harmful product, so we will continue to monitor the specialist market closely in case the situation changes.
Clause 122 ensures that no offence is committed under part 6 of the Bill for something that is regulated under the law on displays. For example, displaying a relevant product or the price of the product in accordance with any regulations concerning displays would not be considered an advertisement for the purposes of advertising offences. Without this provision, a display of a relevant product or other material that is permitted may be prohibited as an advertisement. The provision therefore allows for shops to display a vape, subject to the restrictions set out in legislation on their display, without it being considered an advertisement.
However, in the relevant provision for Scotland, the clause refers only to the legislation on the display of the tobacco products themselves and does not include the legislative provision on the display of the prices of the tobacco products. Government amendment 1 has been made to ensure that both are captured when determining whether something is subject to the law relating to displays, as the equivalent provisions do for England, Wales and Northern Ireland. That has been done at the request of the Scottish Government to make the approach in Scotland consistent with that in the other three jurisdictions across the United Kingdom. It is for that reason that the Government commend this amendment and clauses 120 to 122 to the Committee.
Dr Caroline Johnson (Sleaford and North Hykeham) (Con)
I noticed that Government amendment 1 was included in this grouping. Does the Minister want to talk about it?
Dr Johnson
Oh, sorry. I must have had a moment.
Clause 120 concerns advertising defences. I wanted to ask specifically about the defence relating to the relevant trade communication being directed solely at persons involved in that trade. Does that include adverts within trade magazines? Does it include trade shows and trade stands where these adverts might be visible? Will these adverts or promotions need to be explicitly directed at trade, and will they need to be only visible to trade, or could this actually create a loophole in which there is a suggestion that these are trade magazines, but are actually more widely available than that and therefore provide an advert to the public? How will that work? What if one is doing a trade show in a relatively public venue such as an exhibition centre?
Andrew Gwynne
I can answer that very quickly and clearly, because it was set out in my opening speech. I am not sure whether the shadow Minister was fully paying attention, because it also included Government amendment 1, in relation to bringing Scotland into line with the rest of the United Kingdom on these measures. The legislation sets out that adverts contained only in communications made between members of specific relevant trades in the course of business will have a defence if charged with an offence. I think that is pretty clear.
Dr Johnson
I understand what the Minister is saying, but if members of a trade body are being spoken to at a trade show, for example, will the people running the show need to make sure that people who are not members of the trade do not come? Sometimes, people may bring other people along with them. Will there need to be provisions to ensure that when that trade show is advertised, it is not done in a way that promotes the product itself? If the show is to happen, people will need to know about it, so how will they find out? This is just about making sure there are no loopholes.
There is also the business of who is publishing and who is distributing. If someone were to design, produce and print leaflets in the belief that they would be distributed abroad, but then someone gave some young delivery chap, perhaps in his teens, some money to deliver them to a group of households, as happens with pizza delivery adverts and such things, the young lad would be committing an offence of which he may or may not be aware. That is no excuse under the law, of course, but the person with greater culpability would be the person who gave him the leaflet. How does the Minister intend the law to be applied in such a situation?
Clause 121 concerns specialist tobacconists. The Minister has been quite consistent on every aspect of this legislation—apart from penalties—in saying that tobacco in all its forms is bad for people and needs to be eliminated, so I am interested in this specialist tobacco exemption. I understand that the advert is going to be available inside the store, and not visible from the outside, and that it will exclude cigarettes and hand-rolling tobacco. I am interested to understand why it will specifically exclude those and not other forms of tobacco. The Minister might say, “That is what the legislation says at the moment, and we want to keep it the same,” but passing new legislation is an opportunity to change things, review what we currently have and decide whether it needs to be different. I am interested in his reasons for that decision.
The clause defines a “specialist tobacconist” as a shop
“more than half of whose sales…derive from the sale of cigars, snuff, pipe tobacco and smoking accessories.”
That would appear to be on the basis of the cost or value of sales. What is the reason for that definition? It may be that that is the existing definition, but has the Minister considered whether specialist tobacconists should be defined according to whether they sell a greater or a lesser amount of such products? Also, we see vape shops on virtually every high street now, so how will the Bill apply to them?
Gregory Stafford
I completely agree. It is essential that not only this clause and the regulations it will bring in, but all the clauses we have talked about—both those where regulations are included on the face of the Bill and those that give the Minister, the Department for Health and relevant authorities the power to implement other regulations and restrictions—are phased appropriately, so that retailers and manufacturers can adjust to the new laws. They must also be introduced rapidly enough that there are no loopholes, and in the right sequence so that people cannot take advantage of any loopholes.
That brings me to the point that vigilant enforcement and clear guidelines are necessary to prevent such exploitation. I would be interested to know from the Minister whether that links back to the previous clauses, in which we talked about the display of notices.
Likewise, we need to ensure that there is consistency across the jurisdictions. We have devolved government in this country, but if regulations concerning the display and advertisement of tobacco and vape products vary between the different countries of the United Kingdom, there could be cause for some legal issues. It is therefore vital to ensure that clause 122 is applied consistently across all parts of the United Kingdom to prevent confusion among retailers and to maintain the stated aim of the Bill, which is uniform public health standards.
I have a few questions to the Minister. First, will he be developing comprehensive guidelines for what constitutes a display versus an advertisement? These guidelines should include visual examples to assist retailers in understanding and complying with the regulations. I mentioned it before, but regular training and communication is essential so that retailers can be educated about the distinctions and the legal requirements. Continued regular communication will help to address any ambiguities and keep retailers informed about any changes to the laws or regulations that the Minister or his successors might introduce. The Minister is laughing, but I think it is more that he received a funny text than because of my speech.
Finally, robust monitoring and enforcement is essential to ensure that there is compliance with clause 122. That should include routine inspections and clear processes for addressing violations to ensure that the distinction between displays and advertisements is respected. In conclusion, the clause plays a pivotal role in balancing the rights of retailers to display their products with the necessity of restricting advertising that could promote tobacco and vape usage. We on this side of the Committee—mostly—agree with the clause, and I hope that the Minister will answer some of the queries that we have raised.
Andrew Gwynne
I thank hon. Members for their questions. The hon. Member for Farnham and Bordon just referred to my smirk, and it was indeed a text from somebody asking whether we should define “clappers” in our guidance as well.
To return to the substance of the Bill, the Government amendment is minor and technical; there was a drafting error, and the Scottish Government have since requested the amendment to correct it and to ensure the regulations and the law, as it appertains to England, Wales and Northern Ireland, will be the same for Scotland.
On the subject of “specialist tobacconists”, let me first make a point of clarification for the shadow Minister and the hon. Member for Farnham and Bordon. We are not saying there is specialist tobacco—there is no such thing. Tobacco is dangerous and uniquely harmful. Tobacco is tobacco. There is nothing specialist about it. A very small number of retailers around the United Kingdom sell niche products; they are specialist tobacconists. That is different to the tobacco being special. There is nothing special about tobacco. The tiny number of retailers that sell things such as pipes and cigars exist in a limited number of places and there are already exemptions in the law for them. As we move towards smoke-free, the reality of market economics means that those specialist tobacconists are not necessarily likely to be around at some stage in the future.
The impact assessment that the Government have provided alongside the Bill makes it very clear. With the measures in the Bill, by 2050—25 years’ time, that is all—we are looking at smoking prevalence in the under-30s being nearly zero. Given that reality, the Government believe that the current exemptions for that small number of retailers will continue. Due to the specialist nature of their trade—they focus on a small number of other tobacco products, such as cigars—they only make up a tiny proportion of the UK market. We know that all tobacco products are harmful, so the Government will, of course, keep a watchful eye on it to make sure that we do not inadvertently grow a new market but, at this stage, we do not believe that will happen.
Specialist tobacconists are not permitted to advertise cigarettes or hand-rolling tobacco because those are the most commonly used types of tobacco. The existing bans on tobacco advertising therefore relate to the sale of those products, whether in specialist tobacconists or the local supermarket, so we are really talking about the advertising exemption for other products. That is a continuation of the existing exemption, which has not caused any issues such as younger people taking up smoking. Any advertising the retailers have cannot be visible from outside the premises. That is really important so that a child walking past one of these random Hogwarts-looking shops that sell a product of which they are hopefully not aware will not ever be attracted to what goes on inside.
Dr Johnson
I am pleased that the Minister is considering how shops look from the outside because, when one walks down the high street at the moment, it is not uncommon to find shops where the entire shop window has been turned into a picture of various types of vapes.
Andrew Gwynne
Absolutely—I agree with the hon. Lady that how it looks from the outside does matter. That is why, when these exemptions were put into earlier legislation, it was clear that none of the adverts for these niche products could be visible in the shop window from the outside, precisely to protect future generations from ever being enticed to think, “I wonder what a pipe tastes like, or what a cigar is like,” although I am sure the hon. Member for Windsor could, if he chose, give us an hour-long explanation. That is why the legislation is drafted in the way it is. However—and hopefully the industry is listening to this—the Government will, of course, continue to keep an eye on whether this exemption is working in the way that it has previously worked and that we expect it probably will work in the future. If in the future we have evidence that it is not working, the Government can come back and look at it again. However, as things stand, I commend the clauses to the Committee.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 120 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 121 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 122
Exclusion for advertisements that are displays
Andrew Gwynne
The clause provides the Secretary of State with the power to introduce regulations that prohibit or restrict the brand sharing of tobacco products, herbal smoking products, cigarette papers, vaping products or nicotine products. Tobacco brand sharing is already prohibited. Brand sharing, also known as brand stretching, is a form of indirect advertising that promotes the use of a service or product by putting its branding on other products or services, or vice versa. For example, using a tobacco product on a logo or a T-shirt or a confectionery company using its branding on a vape are examples of brand sharing if the intent is to promote vapes. There is a clear association between tobacco advertisements and the uptake of products.
Associating nicotine or vape products with a reputable brand may also incentivise consumers, particularly children, adolescents and other vulnerable groups, to buy the product. We want to stop that happening and to protect young people and future generations from becoming addicted to nicotine. I therefore commend the clause to the Committee.
Gregory Stafford
The clause grants the Secretary of State the authority to regulate brand sharing related to tobacco products, vaping products, nicotine products, herbal smoking products and cigarette papers. I think the provision is instrumental in preventing indirect advertising strategies that could undermine the public health efforts in the Bill aimed at reducing consumption of those products.
Brand sharing, in my understanding, refers to the practice of using a brand name, a logo or some kind of distinctive feature associated with a particular product across a range of different product categories. In the context of tobacco and vaping products, brand sharing can manifest in several ways. Cross-product branding uses a tobacco brand’s name or logo on a non-tobacco product such as clothing or accessories to maintain brand visibility despite the advertising restrictions.
On event sponsorships, my hon. Friend the shadow Minister mentioned how we banned the advertising of tobacco products at Formula 1, the cricket and so on. Associating a tobacco or vape brand with events indirectly promotes the brand to a broader audience. Merchandising—the selling or distributing of merchandise bearing the branding of tobacco or vape products—can appeal to various demographics, especially young people.
Gregory Stafford
I do not want to put words into the Minister’s mouth; I am sure he can respond to my hon. Friend when he gets up. I think there has been relative unanimity on the Committee. Unlike alcohol and gambling, to use the two examples that my hon. Friend gave, tobacco is significantly more dangerous. Whereas there are safe levels of indulgence in gambling and alcohol, there is no safe indulgence in tobacco products. I think the Minister has made that very clear. If I have misinterpreted what he said, I am sure he will correct me.
The rationale for the clause is important: it closes advertising loopholes. Traditional advertising channels for tobacco products have been progressively restricted to reduce their appeal and accessibility, especially to young people. However, brand sharing could present a loophole that companies could exploit to continue to promote their products indirectly. By regulating brand sharing, the clause aims to close that gap, ensuring the intent of the advertising restrictions, which we have previously discussed, is fully realised.
Secondly, as with measures throughout the Bill, the clause aims to protect public health. Indirect advertising through brand sharing can subtly influence consumer behaviour, particularly among impressionable groups such as adolescents. Exposure to branding on non-tobacco products or at events can normalise tobacco and vape use, potentially leading to their initiation and then continued usage. Regulating brand sharing is therefore a critical step in protecting public health by limiting the avenues through which these products are promoted.
Once again, the clause brings us into line with a number of international standards. Many countries have already recognised the risks associated with brand sharing and have implemented regulations to address it. For example, the World Health Organisation’s framework convention on tobacco control, which I previously mentioned, recommends comprehensive bans on all forms of tobacco advertising, promotion and sponsorship, including indirect forms such as brand sharing. By empowering the Secretary of State to regulate brand sharing, the UK is aligning itself with international best practices in tobacco control.
However, there are some challenges and considerations. The first is defining the scope of brand sharing. One of the primary challenges I see in regulating brand sharing is establishing clear definitions and boundaries. Determining what constitutes brand sharing requires careful consideration to avoid an ambiguity that could be exploited. I hope the Minister will give us some understanding of what the guidelines and boundaries might look like. Clear guidelines are essential to ensure that both regulators and businesses understand the limitations and comply accordingly.
The definition of brand sharing in subsection (2) involves broad and somewhat ambiguous terms, such as
“anything which is the same as, or similar to, a name, emblem, or any other feature”.
The use of such open-ended language could create uncertainty about what constitutes a violation of the regulations. How precise must the similarities between a relevant product and another service product be in order to be considered brand sharing? It would be helpful if the Minister could help us understand that.
There is also then the balancing of the regulation with commercial rights, which I think my hon. Friend the Member for Windsor alluded to earlier. While the object is clearly to protect public health, it is also important to consider the commercial rights of businesses. Over-restrictive regulation could have unintended economic consequences, particularly, again, for small businesses involved in merchandising or event sponsorship. I have said this before: if the product is legal to consume, we must ensure that whatever regulations we apply are equal and fair for both a large retailer or manufacturer and a small retailer or manufacturer. The regulation is either highly restrictive or highly permissive, but it must be the same. A balanced approach is necessary to achieve the public health goals without imposing undue burdens on legitimate commercial activities.
As I have said before in debates on other clauses, enforcement and compliance potentially bring some logistical challenges. The monitoring of so many various channels, including events and merchandise digital platforms, requires substantial resource. Ensuring compliance among diverse industries and settings necessitates a co-ordinated effort between regulatory bodies, industry stakeholders and the public.
In addition to the questions I have already asked, could the Minister tell us what will be in the accompanying comprehensive guidelines? I urge the Minister to collaborate with public health experts, industry representatives and legal advisers to formulate clear and detailed guidelines on what constitutes prohibited brand-sharing practices. Those guidelines should be regularly updated to address any emerging trends and technologies, which we have discussed previously.
Stakeholder engagement is entirely appropriate and important. That includes with businesses and consumer groups, because we need to understand the regulations and encourage, where possible, voluntary compliance rather than compliance through enforcement operations. Educational campaigns can help stakeholders recognise the public health rationale behind regulations.
Finally, to go back to what I said about having robust monitoring mechanisms, we need to establish some kind of body to oversee and monitor to ensure compliance. Using technology and public reporting mechanisms can aid in identifying the violations and taking prompt action.
In conclusion, I support the intentions of the clause, but the ambiguity around what exactly constitutes brand sharing is something I would like to hear about from the Minister. Potentially, some challenges in enforcement are posed if the clause and the Bill become law.
Andrew Gwynne
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his thoughtful contribution and questions. First, to be clear, we are aligning with the same regulatory framework that was used for tobacco. Tobacco brand sharing was done via regulations following the introduction of TAPA—the Tobacco Advertising and Promotion Act 2002—and the necessary consultation through that process. We will of course consider brand-sharing restrictions for vapes once the Bill has received Royal Assent.
It is also important to say that following the ban on direct advertising, we will consider whether further regulation of brand sharing is needed at that point. If it is deemed necessary, we will need to assess the scope and the impact of any regulations to ensure that they are proportionate—precisely the point that the hon. Member for Farnham and Bordon was setting out. My belief is therefore that it is more appropriate to regulate brand sharing via secondary legislation following consultation, not only to get that proportionate balance, but to ensure that any regulations are well understood, workable and enforceable.
An added issue is that advertising is devolved to Scotland and Northern Ireland—but not to Wales—so the Secretary of State must obtain consent from Scottish Ministers and the Department of Health in Northern Ireland before making any regulations containing provisions that would be within the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament and the Northern Ireland Executive. We want to have the measures in place across the United Kingdom—so that there is no loophole, with brand sharing north of the border but not south of it, for example—so it is important that we go through the correct procedures to ensure that my counterparts in Scotland and in Northern Ireland are fully content with the direction of travel that we may wish for when it comes to England and Wales, which is the responsibility of the Secretary of State in the UK Government.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 123 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 124
Sponsorship: tobacco products
Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
Sarah Bool
That is a possibility. It always depends on the terms of the contract itself, but in theory they could agree a 10 or 15-year contract and sponsorship deal. It is interesting that this could be one of the overhangs that we see, so we have to be aware of it going forward.
Andrew Gwynne
The clauses make it an offence for a person to be involved with a sponsorship agreement where the purpose is to promote in the course of business tobacco products, herbal smoking products, cigarette papers, vaping products or nicotine products. Anyone convicted of an offence under the provisions may be subject to imprisonment, a fine, or both. Tobacco sponsorship is currently banned under the Tobacco Advertising and Promotion Act 2002. There is a long-standing, well-established relationship between tobacco advertising and tobacco consumption.
Clause 124 restates the current position for a person involved in the sponsorship of a tobacco product. We are consolidating existing tobacco legislation in the Bill to provide a coherent narrative for readers, rather than have it spread over lots of different pieces of legislation. A large part of the Bill brings the legislation into one place, so that from Royal Assent onwards, the go-to place for anybody with any questions about tobacco control will be this piece of legislation, rather than it being dispersed across different Acts of Parliament.
Tobacco sponsorship is already banned, but importantly, the Bill expands the offence to include herbal smoking products, cigarette papers, vaping and nicotine products. The restriction will mean that vaping and other nicotine product companies will, for example, not be permitted to sponsor sports teams, which is something that we have seen in recent years. It might upset the hon. Member for Windsor, but I have to say that not a single child should ever be able to look up at their favourite sports stars—people who should be role models—and see them covered in branding for products that are harmful and addictive. That is the point here.
Dr Johnson
Would the Minister like to comment on whether many of the athletes may feel uncomfortable wearing shirts with such branding on?
Dr Danny Chambers (Winchester) (LD)
To reinforce the point that athletes may be uncomfortable wearing that type of branding, they are not only role models for children, but the epitome of health, fitness and what the human body can achieve. It seems outrageous that they should be advertising harmful products.
Andrew Gwynne
Well, some of them are—the way Man City have been playing this season, I am not quite sure. Anyway, we will get back on to the Bill as quickly as possible.
The ban will apply to agreements entered into after the clause comes into force, two months after Royal Assent. It will be an offence if a contribution is made from either party after the specified date, which will be set out in future regulations. The ban will apply to any agreements entered into after that date, and will therefore not apply to existing contracts. The reason for the two-month period is to provide businesses with advance warning and to prevent them from entering into new agreements.
The hon. Member for South Northamptonshire asked whether this could create a rush to get sponsorship deals in place within that two-month window. That is a fair question, but I think that is unlikely for a number of reasons. First, sponsorship deals are pretty tricky contracts and it tends to take more than two months to reach contractual agreement. Secondly, even if matters were expedited, most clubs already have their deals in place, and they would not replace something when they already have a contractual arrangement for something else. Were that unlikely scenario to play out, we would be looking at only a small number of cases anyway.
When drawing up the regulations, we will have to be careful to ensure that no new contract can be signed, and certainly not for the kind of time period that the shadow Minister set out. That would be really out of the spirit of this legislation and the Government might have to come back to tighten it up further.
Dr Johnson
I have a couple of questions about the rush of people trying to get contracts. First, presumably such a contract would not need to start straight away, so one could enter into a sponsorship agreement for some future period. As the Minister said, the sponsorship agreements are done for this season and being negotiated for the next, but presumably that would not stop a business entering into a contract to provide sponsorship for the next season, or even the season after. When the Government brought in VAT on private school fees—I should declare an interest here—they put in a forestalling measure that prevented anyone from entering into a contract to pay them ahead from, I believe, 28 July last year. They seem to be taking a much more lenient approach to the advertisers and sponsors of vaping and nicotine products than they are to parents wishing to pay for their children’s education.
Andrew Gwynne
The hon. Lady raises an interesting point; I will take that away and look at it. Perhaps with the exception of the hon. Member for Windsor, everyone on the Committee agrees that we do not want our footballers, rugby stars or athletes to be emblazoned with adverts for vaping products, so the more we can do to tighten up the legislation further, the better.
I will just politely correct the hon. Member for Windsor that the term for someone from the historic County Palatine—including yourself, Mr Dowd—is a Lancastrian. My late father was the Lancashire cricket correspondent, first for Cricket Call, which was a BT paid-for service, and then for BBC North West. He was there in 1990 when Lancashire won both the NatWest and Benson & Hedges cup finals—the double at Lord’s. I still have copies of my late father’s book, “Double Delight”. I would say that they are available at all good booksellers, but they are available from me if the hon. Gentleman wants one.
The hon. Member for Windsor made an important point. I had just come out of secondary school in 1990, which shows how long ago it was, but it was pretty commonplace for tobacco companies to advertise at major sporting events like Lancashire cricket matches and others. The fact is that that was a long time ago, and things have changed for the better. The Benson & Hedges cup final, in cricket of all games, is a thing of the past. Hopefully, at some stage in the near future, we will look back at vape sponsorship of football clubs as a thing of the past, because that is where it deserves to be.
Sarah Bool
This is just off the top of my head, but on a technical point about clause 125(1), in terms of vape sponsorship, a person will be guilty of an offence only after the provision comes into force. I appreciate that there is the two months, but they also have the window of time while the Bill goes through Parliament, so they potentially have a couple more months for that.
I do wonder about how this is going to work in practice, because, in theory, a company that is offering sponsorship—if they enter into that agreement now—will not be in trouble for the next couple of years for doing that, yet under preceding clauses anyone who designed or printed material for any of those sponsorship deals would be guilty of an offence. We suddenly have a position where, potentially, the sponsors themselves are not guilty of an offence while the actual designers, and those who are publishing the sponsorship material, are. That is an interesting nuance.
Andrew Gwynne
The hon. Lady makes a really important point. When we look at things in isolation, as we tend to do with these clauses, we look at them through a narrow prism, but this Bill contains a wide range of powers and legal responsibilities that will help to make things like those sponsorship deals incredibly difficult before the legislation is in force. It is very clear that, after Royal Assent, the requirements that the hon. Lady rightly sets out in terms of advertising, printing, publishing and so on will apply, and separately there will be this two-month window that we are giving, but the whole of the law needs to be read together. Hopefully that gives some assurances on why we believe that these measures, taken in the round, are as robust as they can be.
Mr Barros-Curtis
I am grateful that the Minister will take away the point raised by the hon. Member for South Northamptonshire, discuss it with officials and come back to us. When doing so, it will be worth reflecting on the fact that, as the hon. Lady knows from her previous work, a lot of commercial contracts tend to have force majeure clauses, which may well envisage legislative changes in countries relevant to the jurisdiction of the contract that could impact the commercial value of that contract. This may not be as big a problem as some fear, but it is something to be looked at as part of this work. Of course, given that the average wealth of a Premier League club is £1.2 billion, I am sure they would survive such a clause being activated in those examples.
Andrew Gwynne
My hon. Friend makes a very good point. I am grateful that we have somebody from the legal profession on this Committee to advise this Minister, who is not a lawyer, on provisions that may well be put into any kind of contractual discussion that may be starting now, and to alert the parties to such a contract that the law in the four jurisdictions of the United Kingdom is changing and will therefore affect any agreements that are being put into place in advance of that legislation coming in. That is an important point.
Mr Barros-Curtis
There is one further point that I wish to make. The hon. Member for South Northamptonshire and the shadow Minister were talking about the display of logos or company names on football shirts as an example of the practicalities of enforcement. Would my hon. Friend like to comment on the fact that, in European games, when teams that are sponsored by, for example, an alcoholic beverage or gambling company are playing countries where that is prohibited, the shirts of the relevant football team tend to have black tape over the logos, to prevent them from being displayed in the ground and on TV across the world.
Andrew Gwynne
My hon. Friend, as well as being a sound lawyer, is a sound mind reader, because that was precisely my next point. Rightly, Members are testing the legislation. The purpose of this Committee is to tease out how we expect the legislation to work. When it comes to sporting events, from time to time there will be English, Welsh, Scottish and Northern Irish teams playing in other countries, and more importantly teams from other countries playing within the United Kingdom. My hon. Friend rightly points to the existing practice that where something is illegal, those images are covered up.
Gregory Stafford
I am going to test the Minister’s legal knowledge now—perhaps his hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff West or one of his officials can come in and save him. Is the Minister saying that when that happens in other countries, it is due to a legal requirement? I understood that it was to be culturally sensitive to the nation we were playing in, rather than there being a legal requirement—for example, covering up alcoholic drinks in a country that does not approve of alcoholic drinks. Conversely, in the Bill and in the regulations, is there something that says that those sponsorships, which would be vapes or tobacco in this country, would require some sort of covering up or a change to a kit with vapes advertised on it if a country were playing here?
Andrew Gwynne
I am grateful to the hon. Member for that question. The answer is going to be the stock answer that I have given throughout—that much of this detail will be down to how we draft the regulations and so on. The law of the United Kingdom and its four respective jurisdictions of England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland is the law of the land. This Parliament, in passing this legislation, expects the law of the land to be adhered to. If the law of the land is not adhered to, there are strong enforcement measures and penalties for those not applying the law as passed by Parliament.
Going back to existing contracts, it is really important to emphasise the legal advice that the Government received in the drafting of the Bill: that we need to be proportionate and pragmatic and we cannot retrospectively legislate to stop existing contracts. It is really important that we avoid retrospectivity in the design of the clauses in front of us, because the principle that underpins our legal system is that the law is prospective, not retrospective.
Mr Barros-Curtis
I appreciate that, and I completely agree. Learned colleagues and others with legal training will probably remember the auspices of what Parliament can and cannot do. I appreciate that this is something the Minister will have to take away but, while fully agreeing that Parliament cannot be retrospective in the legislation it passes, is it not the case with commercial contracts that there will typically be a requirement for the parties to adhere to the laws that apply to the jurisdiction and to the parties themselves?
Of course, those laws can change in the future. It is not that it is a day one obligation at the time the contract is entered into and then is never checked again. It has to be an ongoing obligation. While I fully understand the point and agree with what the Minister is saying, can he take away that point about the ongoing obligation and the advice? That way, people who have these types of contracts can rely on knowing whether they are or are not in breach of the Act—if, as we all hope, the Bill gets Royal Assent and becomes an Act.
Andrew Gwynne
My hon. Friend sets out a really important point. I am happy to take that away for officials to look at. We want to ensure that companies that currently sponsor sports kits are no longer able to do so, and that sports clubs that have entered into such contracts are not allowed to extend them beyond the dates of their current existence. His brain is much more legalistic than mine, and we do not want the intention behind the law to be circumvented using legal routes that the best lawyers in the land will probably use to try to find a way around it. I will ask my officials to look at that in more detail, because it is a really important point. I hope he accepts that response.
Dr Johnson
I understand the point that the hon. Member for Cardiff West is trying to make about a standard clause being that if a contract breaches the law, the contract falls. In clause 125, however, the Minister appears to be giving a company that promotes vapes by sponsorship an opportunity to enter into a contract, before the legislation comes into force, that would be legal afterwards.
Andrew Gwynne
The shadow Minister is right. There will be a narrow window in which that will be possible—[Interruption.] She asks why, and it is because once the Bill receives Royal Assent, it will bring in a two-month window. That is how the law is shaped, to give us the scope to get these measures right and ensure that we make the framework as watertight as my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff West wants. We believe that that is the proportionate way forward. We cannot make retrospective decisions; if contractual arrangements are under way at Royal Assent, an immediate cut-off could leave the Government open to challenge.
Sarah Bool
I understand that two-month period, but does it also apply to the earlier provisions on the creation of offences relating to publication? If we had some alignment there, neither party could potentially be in breach. That is merely a technical point, however.
The other point—perhaps for when the Minister goes back to the Department—is about force majeure, which the hon. Member for Cardiff West mentioned and which I would like more investigation into. Force majeure concerns acts of God, or something unexpected. I think lawyers would argue that a Government Bill was expected and foreseen, so there would have to be some other form of break clause or right. This debate is getting far too technical for this forum, but it is perhaps something that the Minister can take away.
Andrew Gwynne
As I said to my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff West, we will take all this away and look at it in detail, and we will come back to Members. I am just about legally savvy enough to understand the point that the hon. Lady is making that a break clause or something like it would probably be required, because the coming into law of the Tobacco and Vapes Bill on Royal Assent is expected—it is not an act of God, and it will not come as a complete shock and surprise.
Finally, clause 133 allows us to extend all of part 6 to cover devices that enable a
“tobacco product to be consumed”
or
“an item which is intended to form part of such a device”,
but that are not in the Bill.
Sadik Al-Hassan (North Somerset) (Lab)
On the conversation we were having previously, does the reference in clause 125(3) to a “specified date” mean that we can have an open discussion with the Secretary of State in the next stage of the Bill’s passage about deciding at what point the provision will apply to the contracts?
Andrew Gwynne
I will take that away, because I do not know the answer off the top of my head. In bringing forward regulations, the Secretary of State and I will want to ensure that we get these measures right. That is why there are statutory duties to consult on secondary legislation throughout the Bill. That will ensure that we get these measures and the details right, and that there will hopefully be no ambiguity about the different dates for the offences of printing, publishing and distributing advertisements or about those related to sponsorship deals and the production of the kits that come out of them. With that, I commend the clauses to the Committee.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 124 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 125 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Ordered, That further consideration be now adjourned. —(Taiwo Owatemi.)
Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Thirteenth sitting)
(Limited Text - Ministerial Extracts only)
Read Full debateTuesday 28th January 2025
(1 year, 6 months ago)
Public Bill CommitteesTobacco and Vapes Act 2026 Read Hansard Text Amendment Paper: Public Bill Committee Amendments as at 28 January 2025 - (28 Jan 2025)
The Committee divided: - Ayes: 5 / Noes: 8 - Question accordingly negatived.
The Committee divided: - Ayes: 4 / Noes: 8 - Question accordingly negatived.
This text is a record of ministerial contributions to a debate held as part of the Tobacco and Vapes Act 2026 passage through Parliament.
In 1993, the House of Lords Pepper vs. Hart decision provided that statements made by Government Ministers may be taken as illustrative of legislative intent as to the interpretation of law.
This extract highlights statements made by Government Ministers along with contextual remarks by other members. The full debate can be read here
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
Dr Johnson
I know my hon. Friend is very interested in AI. I am sure that if it is possible to do so, these industries will use any means available to them to maintain their market.
The clause extends the regulations from tobacco to cover all vaping products, herbal smoking products, cigarette papers and nicotine products. Given my concerns about children and vaping and the use of nicotine, I think this is a sensible measure, which I support.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Care (Andrew Gwynne)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Pritchard. Clauses 126 and 127 and schedule 16 contain provisions relating to audiovisual services and radio broadcasting. Clause 126 provides that part 6, which deals with advertising and sponsorship, does not apply to certain categories of television and radio service. That is because these services are already prohibited under the Communications Act 2003.
Clause 127 introduces schedule 16, which amends the Communications Act 2003. The amendments extend provisions in that Act that ban advertising and sponsorship of tobacco products in certain TV and radio services to include herbal smoking products, cigarette papers, vaping products or nicotine products. That ensures that the advertising ban on tobacco in television, radio and on-demand programme services is extended to all of those products. In practice, the measure means we will no longer see banned products or promotional material for those products on any of those mediums.
The shadow Minister rightly points out that the services listed in the clause include ITV, independent television and radio, the BBC and Sianel Pedwar Cymru, and on-demand programme services—that covers the points that Members have made—and non-UK on-demand programme services, which are tier 1 services as defined in the Communications Act 2003. I hope that reassures the hon. Member for Farnham and Bordon that it also includes programmes produced and aired outside the United Kingdom that are brought into the United Kingdom.
As a helpful aide-mémoire for the Committee, the Communications Act 2003 regulates telecommunications broadcasting. It confers functions on the Office of Communications, a regulator, to oversee the services. The Act puts in place effective rules for the advertising of tobacco on television, radio and on-demand services. By amending the Act, we ensure that this existing framework also applies to vaping products, nicotine products, and cigarette and herbal smoking papers. There is no need to reinvent the wheel and add more to the Bill, as we can use the existing provisions in the 2003 Act. I therefore commend the clauses to the Committee.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 126 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 127 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Schedule 16 agreed to.
Clause 128 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 129
Enforcement authorities
Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
Andrew Gwynne
I thank the shadow Minister for her questions. The Government are investing over £100 million over five years to boost His Majesty’s Revenue and Customs and Border Force’s enforcement capability to tackle illicit tobacco. In 2025-26 we will invest £30 million of new funding for enforcement agencies, including trading standards, Border Force and HMRC, to tackle illicit and under-age sales of tobacco and vapes, supporting them to implement the Bill.
Decisions on funding for trading standards in future years will be made as part of the spending review process, but given our clear commitment to enforcement in the Bill and the fact that we have put down the payment of £30 million for enforcement in the next financial year, I hope hon. Members are assured that we take these matters seriously. We are investing £3 million over two years specifically to enhance the work led by National Trading Standards to tackle under-age and illicit vape sales. That work is carried out through enhancing market surveillance and enforcement action on ports, online sales enforcement, and boosting the storage and disposal of illicit vapes. The new funding for 2025-26 will build on this work to tackle under-age and illicit vape sales.
The shadow Minister asked how trading standards will use their additional enforcement funding. The crucial point is that we want to boost trading standards’ capacity, to enable the services to conduct more under-age sales test purchases, remove illicit products from the market and identify non-compliant products and bring them into compliance where possible.
Dr Johnson
My question was not simply how trading standards will use the money allocated, but whether the Minister feels that the money he has allocated is adequately purposed?
Andrew Gwynne
I do, which I have just said. The £30 million in the next financial year to boost the enforcement agencies will meet the needs that the Bill sets out. It is also about boots on the ground and having greater capacity. We will be working with trading standards on this additional enforcement funding to ensure that they increase their capacity and are able to take on the roles and responsibilities that the Bill places on them. We will continue to discuss with trading standards how we can best support them in respect of the measures of the Bill. I commend the measures to the Committee.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 129 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clauses 130 to 132 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 133
Power to extend Part 6 and Communications Act 2003 to other products
Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
Dr Johnson
Clause 133 gives the Secretary of State the power to extend part 6, which deals with advertising and sponsorship, and the Communications Act 2003 to other products, specifically products that are devices of a specified description enabling a tobacco product to be consumed, such as a heated tobacco device or pipe, or an item that is intended to form part of such a device. It allows the Secretary of State to consult with the required persons and gain consent where required with the devolved legislatures. However, how will the Secretary of State further define that, and can the Minister give us some examples of the types of products that might be included under the power? Could it allow for the expansion of regulation to a wide range of products not originally envisaged in the Bill?
The inclusion of devices and items potentially covers a wide array of consumer products without any clear boundary. What are the specific criteria or considerations that the Secretary of State must use when deciding whether to extend the provisions? Could that lead to arbitrary or inconsistent decision making, depending on the political or public health priorities of the Government of the day? The wording seems to give considerable latitude, but not much clarity on when or how the Secretary of State should exercise the power.
Andrew Gwynne
I am very happy to answer the question posed by the shadow Minister. It is a simple answer: we need clause 133 to avoid loopholes. Otherwise, newer products such as heated tobacco—and those products that have not even been developed yet—are in scope of the restrictions, but devices used alongside them could still be used to promote tobacco consumption.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 133 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clauses 134 and 135 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 136
Addition of smoke-free places in England
Jim Dickson (Dartford) (Lab)
I beg to move amendmentusb 11, in clause 136, page 77, line 8, after “regulations” insert
“and a local authority may (as respects its area) make byelaws”.
This amendment would extend the power to designate areas as smoke-free to certain local authorities, by making byelaws. Any byelaws so made would need to be confirmed by the Secretary of State by virtue of section 236 of the Local Government Act 1972.
Dr Johnson
Amendment 14 defines a local authority as
“a county council…a district council, a London borough council, the Common Council of the City of London in its capacity as a local authority, the Council of the Isles of Scilly, a combined authority or a combined country authority.”
By the time we get to next summer, Lincolnshire will probably have district councils, a county council and a mayoral authority—I do not agree with having a mayoral authority, because I think that is too many tiers of government, but that is an aside. What if those authorities do not agree? If we give them all the power to make regulations, they could all make different regulations based on different opinions—as is currently the case in Lincolnshire, the various authorities are not always under the control of the same political party.
Andrew Gwynne
I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Dartford for bringing this issue before the Committee. As we have heard, amendment 11 would introduce a power for local authorities to make byelaws relating to the designation of additional smoke-free places in England, which would sit alongside the Secretary of State’s power to make regulations in the same regard.
As we know, the Bill expands the Secretary of State’s powers to create additional smoke-free places at the national level. In England, the Government have already indicated that we intend to extend the smoke-free designation to outdoor places including children’s playgrounds and outside schools and hospitals, but not to outdoor hospitality settings or wider open spaces such as beaches. The reforms we are setting out in the Bill will be subject to full consultation, and we want to hear the views of people from across the country to ensure that we get them right.
As drafted, the Bill gives no additional powers to local authorities. However, they have existing mechanisms for designating certain spaces as smoke-free. As we have heard, areas such as Manchester, my home city, have already used pavement licensing provisions to ensure that people have smoke-free options when they consume food and drink in certain locations, and that works well. Some local authorities have implemented public space protection orders to prohibit smoking in certain areas. For example, the London borough of Enfield has used a public spaces protection order to restrict smoking within the boundaries of children’s playgrounds. Of course, that will be obsolete should the consultation for the national scheme extend to children’s playgrounds, as we intend it to.
Dr Caroline Johnson
I thank the Minister for making those interesting points. Can he clarify whether powers such as those enacted in Enfield create a criminal offence?
Andrew Gwynne
We want to ensure that people who are smokers are not criminalised. Public space protection orders do potentially go down the criminal route. We want to ensure that that is not the case, which is why the Enfield scheme would of course be obsolete under the later provisions—which we are going to discuss today, hopefully—in relation to extending national outdoor smoke-free places.
Dr Danny Chambers (Winchester) (LD)
It is reassuring to hear the Minister talk about consulting before bringing in smoke-free places in specific public outdoor areas. Personally, as a non-smoker and someone who is very concerned about the public health impacts of passive smoking, I think we must also be mindful of the need for evidence-based interventions, and of the trade-offs. A good example is that of some fantastic pubs around Winchester and the Meon valley that have maybe two beer gardens, one to the side and one to the back. There would genuinely be no public health risk if smoking was permitted in one of the beer gardens and not the other.
The Liberal Democrats want reassurance on that. One of the reasons we tabled our amendment to clause 136, which is coming up, is simply to get assurances that the hospitality sector will not be impacted by any of these decisions, especially if the public health benefits are negligible.
The Chair
Order. We will discuss the specifics of the hon. Gentleman’s amendment when he moves it.
Andrew Gwynne
I suspect we are straying off the measures before us, Mr Pritchard, but I assure the hon. Gentleman that consultation is a statutory duty in this Bill. Were the Secretary of State, or indeed Welsh, Northern Irish or Scottish Ministers, to seek to change the scope in the future, they would have a duty at every stage to consult further. I hope that reassures the hon. Gentleman.
I was talking about Enfield and its public spaces protection orders. It is of course for the local authority to determine whether a PSPO is appropriate and that the legal test for implementing a PSPO is met, along with completion of the relevant consultation requirements. Nottingham has created a voluntary smoke-free zone at events, especially those where children are present, and it introduced a smoke-free play park policy in 2015. Other local authorities, such as Oxfordshire county council, have introduced voluntary smoke-free school gates policies. Given the options already available to local authorities and the national reforms introduced through this Bill, which we will debate further, neither the Government nor I think it is necessary to grant these byelaw-making powers via the Bill.
In answer to a point that the shadow Minister raised, which I hope to answer for my hon. Friend the Member for Dartford, legislation sets out all the different types of local authority. Enforcement in terms of the requirement to police any changes would appertain to the particular local authority, because it would be on that local authority’s land that the measures would apply. For example, in a two-tier area, if the county council as the highways authority deemed that pavement licensing were to be introduced, it would be for the county council to enforce its own measures; if a district council brought in measures in a park for which it was responsible, it would be for the district council. I think that is quite a simple explanation.
I understand that we have a complex jigsaw of local government, but it is for the particular type of council or authority that introduces a measure to enforce it. For example, the pavement licence in the City of Manchester is for the City of Manchester to enforce—not Andy Burnham as the Mayor of Greater Manchester, or indeed the Greater Manchester combined authority. That is pretty simple.
Dr Johnson
My question was not so much about the enforcement, which is defined in the Bill as the local weights and measures authority. Amendment 11 says that a local authority may make byelaws. The local authority that may make these byelaws includes the whole range of county councils, district councils and combined authorities, implying that, whoever is enforcing it, those that could make a byelaw could overlap and have contrary views.
Andrew Gwynne
Obviously, if a local authority introduces byelaws, as the City of Manchester has done in respect of pavement licensing, it is for that local authority to ensure that those byelaws are adhered to. Of course, in that case, the weights and measures authority is the City of Manchester, so I suppose that makes it easier.
These powers are already being used. Local authorities are already designating areas, whether it is for pavement licences, public space protection orders or just deeming that land within their own responsibility is smoke-free. We do not believe that the amendments are necessary. I kindly ask my hon. Friend the Member for Dartford to withdraw them.
Jim Dickson
The Minister has given a very comprehensive response. I suspect that the suggestion that this might be a way forward might come up in the consultation when that happens in the coming months. For the moment, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Sarah Bool
I respect the points made by the hon. Member for Cardiff West, because I understand that we do not want any unintended consequences. However, I would counter that by saying that although we perhaps need better definitions—that may be something we can consider—clause 136, as drafted, is incredibly wide, and any of the assurances that have been given to hospitality are merely words. There is absolutely no carve-out for the hospitality sector as this stands.
As much as I think the Minister is honourable in his intentions, unfortunately, we all know that we can go only on the law in front of us in black and white, and there is currently no security for the hospitality sector in this regard. We need to be incredibly clear about this with the hospitality sector, and we need the exclusion. One of the bigger concerns is that if people are not able to smoke—perhaps in a pub garden—it will force them into their homes, where they are actually more likely to drink and smoke more because they are not within that limited capacity of being out in public. We have to think about what the dangers are. Are we actually forcing people to take up worse habits in their private residence than if we allow them a little bit of flexibility in an open space?
I have a question about NHS properties generally. I appreciate that we want smoke-free places and that one wants to go into hospital and walk past people smoking, but I worry about those who have an addiction. Where do they go if they need to smoke, as they would if they are going through a process of cessation? What ends up happening as a result of all these provisions is that the smokers will just be forced down the road away from the property, but that has not really addressed the issue. We have just pushed the problem a few metres away.
We need to think in the round about how we best achieve our aim, how we deal with addiction, and how we clean up the hospital environment in a balanced and proportionate way. Perhaps the Minister has some other ideas, but I do not like the idea of just pushing some smokers down the road, rather than dealing with the issue at hand.
Andrew Gwynne
I am grateful for our debate on amendments 4, 94 and 95. I am even more grateful that a lawyer, my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff West, is sitting behind me—as a non-lawyer, I note that it is always good for somebody to have one on their side. Indeed, the hon. Member for South Northamptonshire is a lawyer as well; in matters of law, there are always disagreements.
Amendments 4 and 95 would remove the power in the Bill to extend smoke-free places to any area that is a workplace or open to the public, including outdoor spaces in England. That would be replaced with a limited power to extend smoke-free places only to healthcare and education settings and to playgrounds. Amendment 94 would reinstate the test present in the Health Act 2006, which requires, in the Secretary of State’s opinion, a significant risk of exposure to significant quantities of smoke before being able to designate an additional place as smoke-free.
On extending smoke-free places, as we heard from a range of public health experts, evidence for the harm from exposure to second-hand smoke is well established. People exposed to second-hand smoke are at increased risk of cancer, chronic respiratory disease and cardiovascular disease. The World Health Organisation estimates that, every year, second-hand smoke kills up to 1.3 million people worldwide.
The science tells us three things about second-hand smoking. First, it poses a risk to health even outdoors. Secondly, it is particularly dangerous for vulnerable people, including children, pregnant women and those with pre-existing but usually invisible health conditions, such as asthma and diabetes. Thirdly, in some public settings, exposure to second-hand smoke can be high. If you can smell it, you are inhaling it.
It is important that the powers are broad, so that the Bill is appropriately future-proofed, as we have discussed in relation to other measures in the Bill.
Gregory Stafford
The Minister may come to this, and I am sorry to keep banging on about it, but I do not understand the future-proofing element of the clause and, therefore, why he opposes our amendments. Unless we have colonised Mars, surely there will be no new definition of an open space, or new wonderful industry way of claiming there is one. We know what open spaces are, and they are not going to change, so what is the future-proofing element?
Andrew Gwynne
The future-proofing element is if the science changes or, more likely, that over time public attitudes change. Smoking is already a minority pastime, and we expect that, in 25 years’ time, the prevalence of smoking among those aged 30 or below will be near to zero, so we will want to protect people from the scourge of second-hand smoke in other places. But that is a debate for other Ministers in other Sessions of other Parliaments at some stage in the future.
I do not want to tie the hands of my successors, so that they have to find a slot before the House for primary legislation to make simple changes. A far more practical and workable mechanism is for my successors to be able to come to the House to say, “The evidence has changed”, or, “Public opinion has changed”, and, “We now seek to consult the outside world on introducing further areas under the powers in the Bill”, and then to lay secondary legislation following the statutory duty to consult. Other areas can therefore come within the scope of the Bill.
Sarah Bool
I take the Minister’s point, but there is only a requirement to consult, so actually, completely unlimited powers have been given to make this change. We are trying to argue that we want the spaces to be clearly defined. It is important and right that we should come back to Parliament to make a change at a future point, if we want to extend the Bill further. But that will only be consultation, based on the current drafting, and a change could be pushed through regardless. The Labour party says that it is trying to support and back hospitality, so making this absolutely clear on the face of the Bill at this point will give hospitality the reassurance that it needs. I cannot see why there is any objection to more clarity, rather than overarching and wide powers. We are binding the hands of future generations and telling them that they cannot smoke and cannot vape—that right has gone—and then, on the other hand, we are saying, “I cannot bind the hands of my future successors”. We need reassurance and clarity for hospitality, and that is not in the Bill.
Andrew Gwynne
I have at no stage said that Ministers would not come back to Parliament. What I have said is that we should not be seeking to find one of those rare things—a slot in a King’s Speech for primary legislation—for something as simple as consulting on further areas.
I also remind the hon. Lady that the powers in the Bill are UK-wide. They do not give just the Secretary of State, or me as the Public Health Minister, the powers to consult in relation to England; they give the same powers to the Scottish Health Minister, the Welsh Health Minister and the Northern Irish Health Minister to consult and to bring forward secondary legislation on extensions following that.
We have been absolutely clear that the Government intend, in relation to England, to consult on schools, hospitals and children’s playgrounds—nothing else. It is those three things. That is our intention. The level of detail will be subject to the consultation. If in the consultation it is deemed that the measure should be extended to other NHS facilities beyond hospitals or to nurseries as part of an education setting, that will be entirely a matter for the consultation, and secondary legislation will therefore be brought to this House. But it is our intention—I cannot make it any clearer—that the three areas this Government are going to consult on are hospitals, outside schools and children’s play areas. We are not going to consult on hospitality. That is clear.
My counterparts in other parts of the United Kingdom may well come to a different decision on which areas to consult on. They may not consult at all.
Gregory Stafford
I thank the Minister for his clarity about what he and the Secretary of State are going to consult on; I take him at his word, of course. But is he not now demonstrating the concerns that we have? Other parts of the United Kingdom will potentially consult on retail. Therefore, the amendment is absolutely necessary. Although I am an England Member of Parliament and care mostly about the good people of Farnham, Bordon, Haslemere, Liphook and the surrounding villages, I have a wider duty as a Member of Parliament to ensure that the hospitality businesses of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland are protected. I am afraid that the Minister has really worried me with what he has just said.
Andrew Gwynne
I can speak only for England, but I am legislating for the United Kingdom with the permission of Health Ministers. It may well be that Health Ministers in other parts of the United Kingdom decide not to consult at all. In Wales, for example, they already have the coverage of all the areas that we are going to consult on in England.
The hon. Member for Farnham and Bordon says he is now even more worried. Well, I tell him this: worry not, because his amendment relates to England only. If he is so mithered about the rights of the Welsh to consult Welsh business on Welsh matters, he should have put Wales in his amendment. If he so bothered about the rights of the Scots to consult on Scottish matters with Scottish business, he should have put Scotland in his amendment. If he is so bothered about the rights of the Northern Irish to consult Northern Irish business about Northern Irish matters, he should have put Northern Ireland on the face of his amendment. He doth protest too much, Mr Pritchard!
The hon. Gentleman has actually made my case for why these measures are proportionate: they cover the whole of the United Kingdom and it will be down to Ministers in the respective parts of the United Kingdom to decide who they will consult, why they will consult and what areas they will consult on. But as far as England is concerned, I cannot be any clearer: hospitality is out of the scope of our consultation. We will consult on three things: hospitals, schools and play areas.
Dr Caroline Johnson
I thank the Minister for giving way, although I would point out that it was not my hon. Friend the Member for Farnham and Bordon’s amendment at all.
Dr Johnson
He is supporting it, but the Minister asked why my hon. Friend did not include things in it. The answer is that he did not write it. The amendments were written by others, one by the Liberal Democrats, and supported by him, which is not the same thing.
The Minister will no doubt have caused concern for the people in hospitality industries in Wales, Northern Ireland and Scotland who are following proceedings today. Could he tell the Committee a bit about the discussions he has had with his counterparts? Have any of them indicated to him their intent regarding hospitality areas in their designated parts of the United Kingdom?
Andrew Gwynne
I certainly can. I have had umpteen conversations with Health Ministers from across the United Kingdom, and none of them has indicated to me that they intend to extend this to hospitality. But the point is that, as Ministers in their own legal jurisdictions, it for them to decide who they are going to consult and on what basis they are going to consult. In terms of the powers in this Bill, which areas they want to extend—if any—is a matter for them. It is not a matter for me or for this Parliament.
We are merely legislating to give those Health Ministers the tools; if they wish to go beyond the scope that the English Ministers are setting out, it is their right to do so. That is the devolution settlement. But they will, of course, have the statutory duty to consult, and they will, of course—I would imagine—want to work with businesses, in Northern Ireland, in Wales, or in Scotland, to make sure that whatever measures they bring forward are right and workable, just as we would in the Department of Health and Social Care, should we decide, at some stage in the future, to go further again.
Dr Johnson
I doubt whether the Minister has provided a huge amount of reassurance to the hospitality sectors in those jurisdictions.
I want to pick up on a point made by the hon. Member for Cardiff West in his intervention about prisons. As far as I can tell, closed prisons are smoke-free environments—that is already the case both inside and outside—but I understand that prisoners in closed prisons are allowed to vape, including in their cells, where they may be vaping near other prisoners who may not wish them to have that choice. We are depriving people of their liberty for good reason when sending them to prison, but we should not be exposing them to chemical vapour as part of that if they are not vapers themselves.
Could the Minister talk to us about the discussions he has had with Justice Ministers about how provision is made for the public health of those currently in prison?
Andrew Gwynne
I am grateful to the shadow Minister, who is now making my case perfectly for why we need to have the regulations as we do. It may well be that, at some stage in the future, a Public Health Minister, or indeed the Secretary of State, having had conversations with and guidance from the Ministry of Justice, seeks to quickly and simply extend provisions within the prison estate. Were the hon. Lady’s amendments to pass, the ability to do that would not be in the Bill.
We have had conversations with Ministers across Government. This Bill has been subject to the usual write-around, so it has the collective support of the Ministry of Justice. The details of which areas would be in or out of the scope of different measures within the Bill will be a matter for the regulations and for consultation. With that, the shadow Minister has precisely made the case for why having things prescriptively in the Bill ties the hands of Ministers.
Dr Johnson
The Minister is suggesting that to be able to restrict access to these products in prisons, he needs to have a wide scope within clause 136. Given that prisons are already smoke-free areas, that surely cannot be the case.
Andrew Gwynne
No, but the point the hon. Lady is making is about what conversations Ministers have had with other Ministers to extend the scope, to protect the rights of others and so on. It is precisely for that reason that the Bill is drafted as it is. At some stage in the future, a Government Minister in another Department may well decide that they want to extend the scope, using the powers we are talking about. Under her amendment, we would then have to find a slot in primary legislation to amend a piece of primary legislation. That is precisely why her amendments are unworkable.
The mechanism in place would allow a consultation on an extension; following consultation, secondary legislation would be debated as part of the affirmative process—there would be a debate, a discussion, and a vote in Parliament. That is precisely why the amendments are unworkable, and I call on the Committee to resist them.
I move on to the removal of the test in the Health Act 2006. That is to enable the Secretary of State to more easily make regulations designating outdoor spaces as smoke-free, but only where such a space is a workplace or open to the public. Reinserting the test would conflict with our intention to extend smoke-free status to places I have mentioned—for example, children’s playgrounds probably do not meet the requirement of there being significant risk of significant quantities of smoke. However, making them smoke-free would almost certainly protect some of the most vulnerable.
Since 2006, the evidence base for harms of second-hand smoking has evolved. It is therefore necessary to update the current legislation, as clause 136 does, to provide more flexibility should the Government wish to designate additional smoke-free places in future.
Dr Johnson
The Minister is making a reasonable point. However, the evidence can change on what constitutes a significant amount of smoke—in the past, people may have believed that someone had to be smoking in order to come to harm and then that someone could also come to harm in an enclosed indoor environment with someone smoking. It may be that the evidence now shows that even being in proximity to someone smoking outdoors—the fact that you can smell it means you are breathing it in—means you are coming to harm on some level. But does the amendment not account for that with the word “significant”? Amendment 94 says:
“if in the Secretary of State’s opinion there is a significant risk that, without a designation, persons present there would be exposed to significant quantities of smoke.”
A significant quantity of smoke may in the past have been considered to be quite a high volume, but now might be a much lower volume. The flexibility the Minister is seeking is already provided for in the amendment.
Andrew Gwynne
The shadow Minister would probably have a large degree of sympathy—at least one of her Back Benchers less so—with our updating the Health Act 2006 to allow us to take action to make more places smoke-free. We think that is right. We now have the ambition to make the whole United Kingdom smoke-free, and this is part of that effort.
Dr Johnson
The Minister is being generous with his time. He knows my thoughts on smoking and vaping, particularly in relation to children, and how important I think creating a smoke-free and nicotine-free generation is—although he does not share the second part. He is talking about how the Secretary of State needs to be able to move with the evidence. I completely and utterly agree with that, but the clause says that there is a significant risk that without designation, persons present will be exposed to significant quantities of smoke.
I support the addition of the smoke-free legislation for spaces like playgrounds. If a playground were to be included, the Secretary of State could quite easily justify that by saying that even seeing someone smoking would encourage children to smoke, particularly if it is their parents, and that therefore it is a sensible action to take.
The words—drafted, I believe by the Minister’s predecessors—are “exposure to significant quantities”. “Exposure” does not necessarily mean breathing it in; children could be seeing it across the playground. “Significant quantities” does not necessarily mean a quantity enough to do them harm. If they cannot see it, they are not being exposed to it and it is not doing them harm, why would we want to stop it happening?
Andrew Gwynne
The point is that that is open to interpretation; that now runs counter to our ambition to have a smoke-free United Kingdom. We have put in place a much more flexible and workable measure. The measure from 2006 was right for 2006, but it is not right for 2027, when we hope to introduce the Bill. That is why we are looking to the measures in the Bill rather than the measures as they stood in 2006.
Lastly, I remind the shadow Minister that her amendments apply only to the clause in the Bill that relates to England. If we agreed to them, the powers in England would not be consistent with the powers in the rest of the devolved jurisdictions across the United Kingdom. This is a UK-wide Bill that provides a consistent legislative framework for the whole of the United Kingdom—all four nations—while allowing devolved nations to go further on subsequent regulations if they so wish. For these reasons, I ask hon. Members to withdraw their amendments.
Dr Chambers
I think that the official Opposition’s amendment is better, so I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Amendment proposed: 95, in clause 136, page 77, line 12, at end insert—
“The Secretary of State may only make regulations designating external or open spaces as smoke-free in England outside—
(a) an NHS property or hospital building,
(b) a children’s playground, or
(c) a nursery, school, college or higher education premises.”.—(Dr Johnson.)
This amendment restricts the Secretary of State to only being able to designate open or unenclosed spaces outside a hospital, children’s playground, school or nursery.
Question put, That the amendment be made.
The Chair
I will make a couple of housekeeping points before we move on. First, if there is an amendment, it has to be formally moved. Secondly, could hon. Members not say “you”? Remarks have to be through the Chair. I have let it go for a bit, but most people have been here long enough to know the rules of the House.
Amendment proposed: 94, in clause 136, page 77, line 21, at end insert—
“The Secretary of State may designate a place or description of place under this section only if in the Secretary of State’s opinion there is a significant risk that, without a designation, persons present there would be exposed to significant quantities of smoke.”.— (Dr Johnson.)
This amendment would re-instate existing section 4(3) in the Health Act 2006.
Question put, That the amendment be made.
Jim Dickson
I beg to move amendment 10, in clause 136, page 77, leave out lines 26 to 29 and insert—
“(a) for subsection (1A) substitute—
‘(1A) The Secretary of State must, no later than the end of the period of 6 months beginning with the day on which the Tobacco and Vapes Act 2025 is passed, lay draft regulations to be made under this section which have the effect of providing for all enclosed vehicles to be smoke-free, other than vehicles of the type described in subsection (3).
(1B) Regulations may make provisions about the meaning of “enclosed vehicle”, which may include vehicles which are partially enclosed or enclosed (or capable of being enclosed) for some but not all of the time.’”.
This amendment requires the Secretary of State to make regulations which would extend the existing prohibition on smoking in vehicles to all enclosed vehicles except ships and hovercraft which are regulated under other legislation. The prohibition currently only applies to workplace vehicles and vehicles carrying under 18s.
Amendment 10 requires the Secretary of State to make regulations that would extend the existing prohibition on smoking in vehicles to all enclosed vehicles except ships and hovercraft, which are regulated under other legislation. As hon. Members will know, the prohibition currently applies only to workplace vehicles and vehicles carrying under-18s. The 2015 ban on smoking in cars that contained children was a really important moment in in public health. It raised awareness about the harms of second-hand smoking in enclosed spaces and protected many children from being exposed to those harms.
Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Fourteenth sitting)
(Limited Text - Ministerial Extracts only)
Read Full debateTuesday 28th January 2025
(1 year, 6 months ago)
Public Bill CommitteesTobacco and Vapes Act 2026 Read Hansard Text Amendment Paper: Public Bill Committee Amendments as at 28 January 2025 - (28 Jan 2025)
The Committee divided: - Ayes: 9 / Noes: 2 - Question accordingly agreed to.
The Committee divided: - Ayes: 12 / Noes: 2 - Question accordingly agreed to.
This text is a record of ministerial contributions to a debate held as part of the Tobacco and Vapes Act 2026 passage through Parliament.
In 1993, the House of Lords Pepper vs. Hart decision provided that statements made by Government Ministers may be taken as illustrative of legislative intent as to the interpretation of law.
This extract highlights statements made by Government Ministers along with contextual remarks by other members. The full debate can be read here
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Care (Andrew Gwynne)
I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Dartford for putting this amendment before the Committee for discussion. The amendment would require the Government, within six months of this Bill gaining Royal Assent, to introduce regulations to prohibit smoking in all enclosed vehicles, other than certain vessels.
I have a lot of sympathy with the arguments my hon. Friend has put to the Committee on the harms of passive second-hand smoking, and I am certainly sympathetic to amendment’s aim of further reducing exposure to second-hand smoke. However, as I am sure the Committee is aware, smoking has been banned in enclosed vehicles used as a workplace or a public place since 2007, and it has also been banned where someone under 18 is present since 2015. We think that this level of protection is appropriate and provides the correct balance between protecting children and vulnerable people from the harms of passive smoking, while not unduly impacting current smokers by interfering with private spaces. That is an important point, because both I and the Secretary of State have been very clear from the outset that we are not seeking to extend measures in this Bill into private spaces.
I remind the Committee that, in the smoke-free generation that we hope and expect the Bill to create, smoking will become a thing of the past. Therefore, hopefully in the not-too-distant future, we will not see anyone smoking in a vehicle because smoking will just not be as prevalent in the UK as it is today. Most people are law-abiding citizens, and we would expect the measures in this Bill, and indeed the in my hon. Friend’s amendment, to be something that most people consider anyway. If they are in an enclosed space such as a vehicle with a friend who has vulnerabilities, most people would probably not light up because they would recognise the harm that they may do to their friend.
Furthermore, the measures in the amendment would be for the police to enforce. We have had no prior conversations with Home Office colleagues about whether this is a power they seek or whether the police would be concerned about its enforceability. That would need further consideration if we were to proceed with this. Having said that, we just do not think that there is a strong argument for interfering in private spaces by extending this prohibition to smoking in all vehicles within six months of the Bill reaching Royal Assent. That is not a large amount of time anyway for such a major change. It is for those reasons that I ask my hon. Friend to withdraw the amendment.
Jim Dickson (Dartford) (Lab)
Once again, the Minister has made convincing arguments for why now may not be the right time for this amendment to become legislation and be adopted. However, I think that within the next decade or so this measure is likely to become law one way or another, so for the moment I am content not to press it. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Dr Johnson
This group of amendments comes back to the principle of proportionality, because there is not complete coherence between the different penalties across the United Kingdom and on the different offences that can be committed under the Bill.
The first part of amendment 84 would ensure that if someone admits guilt of a first offence of smoking in a smoke-free place, they should be liable to a fine not exceeding level 3, which is £1,000 on the standard scale, or a caution. That is a lot of money for lighting up in the wrong place, so it seems reasonable.
The second part of amendment 84 relates to the offence of failing to prevent smoking in a smoke-free place, which is where somebody who is in charge of an area or building fails to prevent people from smoking there. Again, we are asking the Minister to consider the proportionality of the penalty if this has not happened before, compared with a repeat offender, who we would want to throw the book at, metaphorically speaking.
Amendment 85 relates to Scotland. Amendment 97 relates to Wales and is partly in Welsh, and amendment 86 relates to Northern Ireland. Again, we are asking the Minister to consider whether the penalties are proportionate to the offence committed and whether the legislation gives due flexibility and enough guidance for someone committing an offence for the first time, perhaps inadvertently, to be treated differently from someone who is repeatedly flouting the law.
Andrew Gwynne
I am grateful to the shadow Minister for her comments. I have a sense of déjà vu, given that we have already debated ad nauseam her desire to weaken the enforcement regime and the penalties.
Andrew Gwynne
The hon. Lady says that is not true, so maybe it is not quite ad nauseam, but we have covered an awful lot of ground on these arguments.
Dr Johnson
I do not seek to weaken the Bill or its enforcement. I wish to see the Bill be successful in stopping people smoking and vaping, particularly our young people, and I wish to see people who are repeatedly flouting the law in this way treated appropriately. However, I am keen to understand whether the Minister feels there is enough flexibility to deal with offenders appropriately, particularly if it is an inadvertent first offence.
Andrew Gwynne
We will have to agree to disagree, because I think anything that brings in lesser penalties than those that already exist in tobacco control, and I will resist that as I resisted the shadow Minister’s earlier temptations to be more lenient to certain people.
These amendments would change the penalty regime for the offence of smoking in a smoke-free place in England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland and the offence of failing to prevent smoking in a smoke-free place.
Dr Johnson
Does the Minister accept that a fixed penalty notice of £200 is actually a more lenient penalty than a fine of £1,000 or a caution, which incurs a criminal offence?
Andrew Gwynne
I will come on to those points in due course to explain to the Committee why I think the shadow Minister is wrong in this regard and why she was wrong in all previous discussions about weakening the penalty system for first-time offenders. The amendments would create an exception to the maximum penalty that a person can face for committing one of these offences, if it is the person’s first-time offence. It would establish that someone who admits to committing either offence for the first time would be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale, which is £1,000, or instead to a caution in England and Northern Ireland, or a recorded police warning in Scotland.
For the offence of smoking in a smoke-free place, that is two levels higher than the level of fine someone is liable to under the current legislation, which is level 1 or £200 in England, and it is the same as the current level of fine in Scotland and Northern Ireland. For the offence of failing to prevent smoking, the new maximum fine would be one level lower, which is level 3 or £1,000, than the level of the fine that someone liable to under the current legislation, which is level 4 or £2,500, in all three nations. In Wales, amendment 97 would remove a fine altogether and someone who admits to committing either offence for the first time would be liable to a caution.
While I appreciate the shadow Minister’s intention in seeking to alter the penalty regime for first-time offenders, amendment 84 is not appropriate. We do not want to create a penalty regime for the offence of smoking in a smoke-free place that has the potential to be stricter for first-time offenders than for repeat offenders. This amendment would see first-time offenders face a maximum fine of £1,000 on conviction, while repeat offenders would face a maximum fine of £200 on conviction in England. That is not consistent with our approach to the enforcement of tobacco and vape legislation, where enforcement action can be escalated such that repeat offences may lead to harsher penalties. For example, repeated age-of-sale offences can result in a restricted premises order.
We also do not want to weaken the existing penalty regime for tobacco and vape offences, including the offence of failing to prevent smoking in a smoke-free place, by creating exceptions for first-time offenders. Tobacco and vape offences must be taken seriously, and it is important that existing consequences are not weakened for first-time offenders or for anyone who has committed these offences. It is therefore not appropriate to lower the maximum possible fine that an offender who has failed to prevent smoking in a smoke-free place for the first time may face. It is for those reasons that I ask the shadow Minister to withdraw her amendment.
Dr Johnson
I am grateful to the Minister for outlining his thoughts on the matter, and I do not want to see the Bill weakened in this regard. As such, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
The Chair
With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
Clause 142 stand part.
Clauses 147 and 148 stand part.
Clause 153 stand part.
Andrew Gwynne
Clause 136 amends an existing power in the Health Act 2006, relating to the designation of additional smoke-free places, to allow the Secretary of State to make regulations to any area that is a workplace or open to the public smoke-free, which would include outdoor spaces. Private outdoor spaces are out of scope of the powers of this Bill. Clause 142 amends the Smoking, Health and Social Care (Scotland) Act 2005 to allow Scottish Ministers the same powers, and clause 153 amends the Smoking (Northern Ireland) Order 2006 to do the same for Northern Ireland. The power to designate additional smoke-free places builds on existing provisions that made it illegal to smoke in an enclosed, or substantially enclosed, workplace or public place. For England, clause 136 does not replicate a test from the 2006 Act, so there no longer needs to be a “significant risk” that someone
“would be exposed to significant quantities of smoke”
before an additional space can be designated smoke-free. We have already debated that change at length.
Andrew Gwynne
I certainly do not think the hon. Gentleman is putting pernickety arguments, as he put it. They are important points. He and the shadow Minister are allowing me to provide clarification, hopefully, on some of the concerns, which I would argue are unfounded, and to clarify the extent to which the powers in the Bill would be used by Ministers in England. Of course, it is for my counterparts in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland to clarify at future stages how they would seek to use the powers that the Bill confers on them.
As we have discussed at length, the fact that the powers are so broad means that we can respond to evolving evidence at a later stage, particularly when there are clear harms to children and vulnerable people. It allows us then to get on and make the necessary changes. That is consistent with the Bill as a whole, which gives us the legal framework for tobacco control and measures on vapes.
The shadow Minister mentioned hospitals. She is right to point to the evidence we heard on the first day of Committee about compliance with the existing measures in Wales. Ministers in the Department of Health and Social Care are rightly concerned about that in England. We are engaging with counterparts in Wales to understand what worked, what did not work and how we can mitigate the things that are not working as well as they could be when we consult on the measures that we wish to introduce in England, should the Bill get Royal Assent.
The answers to that and other questions about what a children’s playground is and what areas around a hospital would apply are down to the details that will be presented for consultation when His Majesty’s Government advance the proposals on outdoor spaces in England. The right place for us to have that discussion is when I bring forward the consultation and say, “This is what the Government consider to be the scope of children’s playgrounds, the scope of outside a school and the scope of outside a hospital setting.” We can debate whether those are the right or wrong definitions. We can put it out to consultation. We can draw on the experiences of other parts of the United Kingdom that already have measures in place. We can then refine our proposals if need be and introduce the secondary legislation.
Mary Kelly Foy (City of Durham) (Lab)
I totally agree that we need a consultation—that is the beauty of gauging the public interest—but the issue around smoking in public places, and particularly play yards, is about not just second-hand smoke, but de-normalising exposure to smoking. The less that our children see adults smoking, the less chance they will have of thinking it is normal and becoming addicted. We need a comprehensive package to bring in the future smoke-free policy. We have evidence to show that the public, in the main, are in favour of a smoke-free generation, and I am sure that they would police the ban around playgrounds when there are children there. If people are not meant to smoke there, the issue will be policed—possibly by the public.
Andrew Gwynne
My hon. Friend, who has done so much work in this area over such a long period of time, is absolutely right. I will come to some of the enforcement arguments. Our primary aim is to tackle passive second-hand smoking, but it is important that smoking is not so obviously prevalent in areas where children are present —for example, around children’s playgrounds and outside schools. It is not just that the issue of second-hand passive smoking is important—although it is—it is about the clear statement that smoking around children really should be something for the history books. That is why we have removed the public health test from the 2006 Act. Children’s playgrounds probably would not fall within the scope of that test, but it is a clear priority of the Government to remove the prevalence of smoking around children.
Dr Johnson
I thank the hon. Member for City of Durham for her excellent point; I agree entirely with her that we need to ensure that children are not exposed to cigarettes. Could the Minister clarify a couple of points on that basis? First, the edges of playgrounds have been difficult to define—when is the playground the park and when is the park the playground? If it is his intention that children do not see smoking and that that de-normalises the behaviour, which seems a noble aim, would that mean that if someone was within sight of the playground, they would not be able to smoke? Secondly, lots of hospitality venues have playgrounds within them. In fact, one attraction of some pubs that people take children to is that the children will be entertained, while the food is being cooked, by a play area. Will those play areas within hospitality venues be covered by these measures?
Andrew Gwynne
I refer the shadow Minister to the answer I gave some moments ago. These are all matters of detail that will be subject to consultation. We will have the arguments as to the definition of a children’s play area—whether it includes children’s playgrounds in hospitality settings or whether it is just in relation to playgrounds in housing estates and parks—and how the edges are defined. These are all matters for consultation and detail, before we get to the secondary legislation.
I want to challenge some of what the hon. Member for Farnham and Bordon said. To be fair to him, he rightly agrees that second-hand smoke is dangerous, but he makes the case that in outdoor settings it is potentially less dangerous than it is in enclosed settings. That was the view of the chief medical officer: clearly, if someone is indoors, in a constrained area, the prevalence of the toxicity that they are taking in as a second-hand smoker is much greater than it is outdoors—but even outdoors, if someone can smell it, they are breathing it in and it poses a risk to their health. The chief medical officers were really clear on this point: there is no safe level of exposure to smoke. That is particularly important for children, pregnant women and people with pre-existing health conditions such as asthma and heart disease, which may not be visible to the smoker.
A really interesting statistic that the English chief medical officer told the Committee was that at this moment in time, in January 2025, there are more people with clinical vulnerabilities in this country than there are smokers. That is really important when we talk about the balance of rights and responsibilities. The fact that there are now many more people with hidden clinical vulnerabilities than there are smokers shows, I think, where the balance needs to be.
Dr Johnson
The Minister is making a very powerful argument that smoking outside also poses a danger to the health of the nearby public. On that basis, if I were taking an older relative—with chronic obstructive pulmonary disease, perhaps—to a beer garden, I would be reluctant to sit outside in the summer in case someone sat down and smoked near her. Is the Minister not making an argument for including hospitality, on the basis that people who are outside in the beer garden are vulnerable to dangerous smoke?
Andrew Gwynne
People sitting in a beer garden where smoking is prevalent are breathing in second-hand smoke, but as the chief medical officers reminded the Committee, there is a balance here, and the United Kingdom Government of which I am a member have decided that that balance is appropriate in order to protect the hospitality business. That is why Ministers—myself, the Secretary of State and the Prime Minister—have made it very clear that outdoor hospitality will not fall within the scope of the consultation that we intend to bring forward like the clappers. That is our view and it is what we will do. That is not to say that there is a risk that is mitigated for somebody sitting outside. There is a risk, and we cannot mitigate that risk, but it is the balance that the Government have come to. There have to be trade-offs and, given the precarious nature of the hospitality business, we have decided that we will not consult to extend the outdoor smoking provisions to hospitality. I know that that disappoints the shadow Minister—it probably delights other Members on the Opposition Benches—but that is where this Government are.
The powers in the Bill allow for a change at some stage in the future, when it may well be that the balance has shifted and people no longer desire there to be smoking outdoors in hospitality settings. The hospitality trade may say, “This is such a minority pursuit that it is putting off good people from coming to my restaurant.”
Gregory Stafford
Forgive me if I am incorrect, but the Minister is saying that businesses may make the decision that they do not want people to smoke on their premises. They already have that power now, so I am not sure what point he is making.
Andrew Gwynne
The point I am making is that industry collectively may come to Ministers and say, “You know what? This carve-out that we’ve been given is no longer needed.” Ministers may well then come to the conclusion that, given that most of these hospitality businesses at some stage in the future are already imposing outdoor smoking bans because that is where their customer base is, we should bring the law into line with that and make it illegal. The provisions are written in the way that they are so that at some stage in the future, when things change, we can change the law, but right now, as I have said on umpteen occasions, we will consult on outside hospitals, outside schools and public children’s play areas, and that is it.
Dr Johnson
Can the Minister clarify a point? There seems to be a contradiction in my mind, but perhaps I have not understood him correctly. On the one hand, he is being very clear in stating that hospitality will not be included and that children’s play areas will—that seems very clear. Hospitality venues, however, do include children’s play areas. When I asked him about this before, he seemed to say that children’s play areas in hospitality would have to be part of the consultation. If children’s play areas within hospitality are included, then aspects of hospitality are included, are they not?
Andrew Gwynne
That is why it will be down to the consultation as to what precise details we will bring forward. It is not our intention to include hospitality settings, but the hon. Member has rightly raised that some pubs and restaurants have children’s playgrounds. As part of the consultation exercise, we will have to work out how a children’s play area is defined for the purposes of these measures, so that there is absolute clarity on what constitutes a children’s playground. These are not matters for now; they are matters for when Ministers seek to bring forward proposals. We will have that debate then.
Gregory Stafford
I know the Minister is a man of his word. I ask him to be really clear on this, because he has talked about “some point in the future”. Some people’s “some point in the future” may be a very long way off, while others’ may not be such a long way off. Will he give a commitment that, while he is a Minister in the Department of Health and Social Care, he and his colleagues will not bring a consultation to include the hospitality industry?
Andrew Gwynne
Well, I hope that I will be a Minister for a very long time, both at the Department of Health and Social Care and with this public health brief, which I absolutely love. I will follow the evidence as and when it appears, but it is not my intention to bring forward changes any time soon. The reason that we are discussing changes now is that the last time that places were designated for a smoking ban was in 2006, and a lot of things have changed since that law came into force in 2007.
It may well be that, in a similar length of time into the future, things have changed sufficiently that the arguments we are having today on hospitality have become obsolete, and that the law needs to be brought into line with the facts on the ground. I hope that I can reassure the hon. Member for Farnham and Bordon—I am a man of my word—that it is not my intention, nor the intention of this Government to include the hospitality industry, but at some stage in the future, if things change, it may well be that Ministers do come back to the House on this. I cannot judge how long or short that time period may be, but I politely remind him and other Members of the length of time between 2006-07—when these issues were last being debated—and now, and hope that that gives him some reassurance.
The hon. Gentleman said that I have not been emphatic enough on beaches, woodlands, public parks, rights of way and public squares; these are all scenarios that are subject to consultation at some stage in the distant future. It is not our intention to cover these areas in England. I have been very clear about the three areas that we seek to extend smoke-free places to.
Dr Caroline Johnson
I remain a bit confused. On the one hand, the Minister has been very clear: no consultation on hospitality areas. On the other, he has been clear that consultation will occur on play areas. Fair enough. He then said that play areas in hospitality will be discussed as part of the consultation. In that case, how can he be discussing play areas in hospitality but not be discussing hospitality? I am completely confused by that.
Andrew Gwynne
Maybe I was not clear enough for the shadow Minister. We are seeking to bring children’s play areas into the scope of the Bill, and, as we have said, we will consult on restricting smoking around children’s play areas. How we define children’s play areas will be a matter for the consultation.
The hon. Lady has rightly raised a reasonable point that some pubs and restaurants have children’s play areas within them. The Government will have to come to a view, in advance of any future consultation, as to whether that would be included in the definition of children’s play areas—but those are debates for the future, not for now.
We have been clear that smoking will still be permitted in outdoor settings for hospitality. It may well be that there is a smoking facility in the beer garden and it is smoke-free around the children’s play area. That is a matter for a future consultation, but we are not going to bring outdoor hospitality settings into the scope of the smoke-free consultation. If anybody is a smoker today and wishes to sit in a beer garden, and that licensed establishment allows smoking—a growing number of pubs and restaurants are already making their outdoor settings smoke-free because that is where their customer base is—smoking will still be allowed. That will not be part of the scope of future consultation. I cannot be any clearer on that.
Andrew Gwynne
The clause relates to an existing regulation-making power in the Health Act 2006 that allows for the Secretary of State to make regulations that permit performers in England to smoke during a performance. The exemption would enable the creation of defences to the offences of smoking in smoke-free places and of failing to prevent smoking in a smoke-free place. It would be available only where smoking is justified to preserve the artistic integrity of a performance.
The creative industry is a significant part of the UK economy, and we have to balance a range of priorities while protecting the most vulnerable and ensuring that businesses are not financially impacted. The Bill aims to protect those who are most vulnerable to second-hand smoke, and we are of the view that the relative harm from the exemption is low. Without the exemption, it would not be possible for a film or TV show that is made in England to include an actor smoking, regardless of how of how integral that might be. The provision updates an existing power in the 2006 Act, so an exemption to allow performers to smoke during a performance is not new. I commend the clause to the Committee.
Dr Johnson
The Minister is right to say that the clause recasts an existing regulation-making power in section 3(5) of the Health Act 2006, whereby the Secretary of State may make regulations that allow performers to smoke during a performance
“if the artistic integrity of the performance makes it appropriate”,
and is allowed, on that basis, to create a defence to the offences of smoking in a smoke-free place and of failing to prevent smoking in a smoke-free place.
The act of smoking in film, theatre and other forms of art can be a character-defining gesture that speaks volumes about the person’s identity or emotional state, or about the period in history they represent—think of images of Clint Eastwood, John Wayne, Humphrey Bogart and James Dean. It can also establish the period in which a person lived. It was commonplace for virtually everyone to smoke in the 1940s and 1950s, and the smoke swirling around characters became as much a part of their onscreen presence as their dialogue or expressions. Although smoking in real life is certainly not cool, and comes with myriad negative health implications, its role in art and culture can deepen the portrayal of certain iconic figures and their stories.
The Minister says that the exemption has been part of law for a long time, and that it has worked. There are essentially two ways in which a performance can mimic smoking. The first is to have a fake cigarette, six of which can be bought on Amazon for less than a tenner. They look a bit like a cigarette and an actor can hold them, but they do not have any smoke coming from them. My understanding is that currently the most common prop cigarettes used by actors are cigarettes that contain no nicotine and no tobacco but some herbal items. They produce smoke but are less harmful than a cigarette because they do not contain tobacco, and less addictive because they do not contain nicotine.
The Bill provides for tobacco products to be banned for certain generations of people, and adds herbal smoking products to that ban. Could that inadvertently lead to individual actors and actresses smoking tobacco rather than the less harmful alternative, particularly if there is a price differential between the two? Has the Minister considered how the law will apply to actors and actresses who are born on or after 1 January 2009? Will there be an exemption from the other aspects of the Bill, either allowing them to buy the cigarettes themselves or allowing someone to give them cigarettes as a proxy sale, which would currently be banned under the first part of the Bill? At present, actors may be above the age of 18, but the Bill is intended to be future-proof, so if we roll forwards 15 years or so, when younger actors will be banned from smoking and buying cigarette papers and the like, how does the Minister envisage it working in practice?
Freedom of expression is essential to the arts, but the laws and practices that protect and nurture free expression are often poorly understood by practitioners and those who enforce the law. The question is, then: what is a performer? Section 3(8) of the Health Act 2006 states that “performance” can include
“the performance of a play, or a performance given in connection with the making of a film or television programme, and…if the regulations so provide, include a rehearsal.”
That seems a rather narrow definition of performance. Performance art can cross disciplines such as dance on the stage or on the street. If we go to the south bank, just opposite this House, we can see performers performing solo activities on the weekend. Contract law for those engaged in paid work offers some recognition and potential protection for performance-related work, defines it and outlines the conditions of the performance—it is indeed the performer and not other members of the performance who are included.
To create another hypothetical situation, suppose there is an interactive performance in which the performer on stage requires mass audience participation for their act and suggests that the people in the crowd have to join in with them. Would the artistic integrity of the performance trump the laws that prohibit smoking? The line between performer and audience can be blurred, so if an audience member were invited up on the stage by the performer, would they be allowed to try a cigarette or vape? Proposed new section 7(3) of the Health Act 2006 does not suggest that the performance needs to take place on stage or even in the theatre; some occur outside hospitality venues, as we have discussed.
To give a colourful example, imagine there is a performance called “Smokers”, taking place in a pub in, say, Sleaford, in my constituency. It features performers smoking and chatting in a pub. It is quite an experimental, interactive performance, and the members of the audience —in other words, regular pubgoers—can take part in the performance and light up a cigarette themselves should they wish to. Technically, does this scenario not fall within the remit of the law? We have to bear in mind that the tobacco industry is creative in looking for loopholes. Smoking is required in order to preserve the artistic integrity of this alleged performance. Will the Minister provide clarification on this point? Although my examples may sound inventive, the tobacco industry does come up with inventive ways of circumventing the legislation.
My other point relates to performers who are born after 1 January 2009 smoking or vaping on stage. We need some clarity on that.
Sarah Bool (South Northamptonshire) (Con)
To follow on from what the shadow Minister said, the Minister said that performers who smoke during performances would not be a problem because the second-hand passive smoking would not be big enough of an issue. But why can a cigarette be smoked as part of a performance, yet a cigar cannot be smoked once a year by a single person? Why is smoking allowed for this artistic purpose, yet it is not allowed for someone who would like to smoke a cigar recreationally?
Andrew Gwynne
This is an existing power, in the Health Act 2006, that we have retained in the Bill at the request of the creative industries in England. I reiterate what I said in opening the debate: the exemption will be available only where smoking is justified to preserve the artistic integrity of a particular performance, so smoking would not be allowed in the hypothetical situations we have heard about. The provision is intended solely to allow the artistic integrity of a performance to be retained.
The shadow Minister asked whether the provision would merely encourage actors to smoke tobacco. Of course, that is not the case. Herbal smoking products are covered under “smoke-free” as well, so they are treated the same.
Dr Johnson
With respect to the Minister, the point was that they are treated the same. My understanding is that, because of the rules around tobacco, actors who are non-smokers are more likely to use a non-tobacco herbal product that does not contain nicotine. Given the Minister’s previous comments about tobacco being more harmful, why not make the exemption specific to products that do not contain tobacco and nicotine?
Andrew Gwynne
We are following the request of industry. This is an existing power in the 2006 Act and it is to be used only in the exceptional circumstances in which cigarettes or indeed herbal smoking products are appropriate for the authenticity of the performance. That is exactly what the law is now.
I agree with the shadow Minister that it is not cool to smoke. I may have mentioned in previous sittings that I have been successful in getting not one but four stories in LADbible. One of them made precisely the point that the shadow Minister made: that smoking is not cool and it is not glamorous. It is a dirty, stinking, horrible habit that kills two thirds of people who start it. That is why we are committed to a smoke-free generation.
I suspect that this exemption for the creative industries, which is pre-existing, may become obsolete at some point in the near future, not least because I would imagine that as more and more actors themselves are brought up smoke-free as a consequence of the measures we are introducing, actors will eventually point-blank refuse to smoke a cigarette, whether it adds creative authenticity or not.
As I have said, this is a follow-on from an exemption that was previously granted in the Health Act 2006, which is why I seek the Committee’s permission to retain it in the Bill.
Dr Johnson
I understand that the Minister is saying this is what the industry is asking for and that it existed before. However, as a result of the change in regulations, people who act as if they are smokers in a video or film are currently able to smoke herbal cigarettes that are designed as prop cigarettes and do not contain tobacco or nicotine. Although it may not be terribly good for their health for them to do so, those cigarettes do not contain the tobacco that kills two thirds of its users, and they do not contain nicotine either. In providing the exemption for the creative industries, will the Minister at least consider providing an exemption for the least harmful version of what will appear to the audience as a cigarette and cigarette smoke, so that we can protect actors as much as possible?
Andrew Gwynne
I am open to taking that suggestion away and having a look it, but at this stage it is our intention merely to copy and paste the existing exemption that applies for the creative industries in England, which is what the clause does.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 137 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 138
No-smoking signs in England
Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
The Chair
With this it will be convenient to discuss clauses 143, 149 and 154 stand part.
Dr Johnson
Clause 138 relates to no-smoking signs in England and amends section 6 of the Health Act 2006, setting out that whoever occupies or manages no-smoking premises must ensure that the relevant no-smoking signs are displayed in or near the premises—which is, of course, very sensible.
We talked earlier about the importance of people understanding what the law is and where they can and cannot smoke. The clause allows the Secretary of State to make regulations further to the no-smoking signs. That is sensible for outdoor spaces, but does the Minister have information on how the regulations will define the size and edges of those spaces, and on the cost to industry and local councils of providing signage?
Andrew Gwynne
I thank the hon. Lady for that point. The exact requirements of the position of the signs for smoke-free locations will be set out in regulations, but we will ensure that they are required to be in a prominent position near the smoke-free place.
The other matters that the hon. Lady raises relate to questions that we will need to consult on and work through in regulation—for example, who will be required to provide the signs and whether it will be down to public bodies such as NHS trusts and local authorities. All the costs, including any requirements to put up signs and their exact locations, will be considered as part of any future impact assessment of the policy. I commend the clauses to the Committee.
The Chair
Before I put the Question, it may help the Committee if I say that we may be expecting a Division in the House at about 4 pm.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 138 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 139
Vape-free places in England
Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
The Chair
With this it will be convenient to consider clauses 144, 150 and 155 stand part.
Andrew Gwynne
The clauses will amend the Health Act 2006, the Smoking, Health and Social Care (Scotland) Act 2005, the Public Health (Wales) Act 2017 and the Smoking (Northern Ireland) Order 2006 by inserting new provisions relating to vape-free places across the four nations. They will allow the Secretary of State in England, the Scottish Ministers in Scotland, the Welsh Ministers in Wales and the Department of Health in Northern Ireland to designate certain places and vehicles as vape-free, but only where they are already smoke-free. They also provide that appropriate signs must be displayed in or near the vape-free locations, and they give the power to set requirements in respect of those signs.
Although vapes are less harmful than smoking, they are not harm-free. There are legitimate concerns regarding the unknown long-term harms of vaping. Vapes produce aerosol that exposes people to nicotine and potentially to other toxicants. This poses health risks to children and vulnerable people in particular, for example the risk of triggering an asthma attack. It is important and right that the Government act to protect more vulnerable groups from potential health harms.
Many businesses and enclosed public places already voluntarily have schemes in place to prohibit vape use in their premises. We want clearer legislative requirements so that it will be easier for the public to understand where vapes can be used and for enforcement agencies to enforce accordingly. The clauses will therefore give the relevant Ministers and the Department of Health in Northern Ireland powers to restrict the use of vapes in areas, but only those areas already designated as smoke-free. Those could include spaces such as indoor pub areas, public libraries or buses.
In addition to making it an offence to vape in a vape-free place, the clauses will place duties on persons who control or manage vape-free places—that can include drivers of vape-free vehicles—to ensure that their premises or vehicle remains vape-free. In Scotland, the obligation is to not knowingly permit another to use a vape in a vape-free place; in England, Wales and Northern Ireland the obligation is to cause someone who is vaping in a vape-free place to stop using the vape. The difference in approach is a result of amending existing legislation in a devolved area, but the practical effect will be the same.
The clauses make provision to permit the use of a vape during a performance if the use is justified to preserve the artistic integrity of the performance. In Wales, Northern Ireland and Scotland, this takes the form of a defence to the offences of vaping in a vape-free premises or failing to prevent vaping in a vape-free premises. In England, the Secretary of State has the power to create equivalent defences.
The power to designate any spaces vape-free will be subject to a full and open consultation, and the evidence for imposing any restrictions will be considered before regulating. I commend the clauses to the Committee.
Dr Johnson
This is an important clause that I am pleased to see, as I have campaigned against vaping in children for quite some time, as the Minister is aware. As the Minister says, if you can smell it, you are breathing it in. That is an obvious statement, but I have had people tell me that vapes do not give out any smoke and that it is therefore not possible for them to cause damage to anyone nearby. They may not give out smoke, but they certainly give out chemicals that are inhalable by anyone next to the person vaping. Otherwise, it would not be possible to smell the blueberry, or whatever flavour the person has chosen.
Key findings from studies on second-hand vaping include those on nicotine exposure. E-cigarettes emit nicotine in their vapour—in lower concentrations than cigarettes, to be fair, but they do emit it. The amount of second-hand nicotine depends on the brand; nicotine emissions vary among products. One study found second-hand exposure to nicotine from e-cigarettes to be lower than that from tobacco smoke generally. Nevertheless, it exists, and it is still undesirable for people, particularly children, to be forced to inhale such a toxin. It is particularly harmful to pregnant women and those with cardiovascular conditions. The potential long-term effects of such low-level nicotine exposure are unclear.
Although e-cigarettes do not release compounds such as carbon monoxide, as cigarettes do, they do emit other chemicals such as propylene glycol and vegetable glycerine, which have been associated with respiratory irritation. Certain volatile carbonyl compounds, such as formaldehyde, have been identified in cigarette vapour, which could pose health risks with long-term exposure.
One of the persistent limitations with vaping is the lack of long-term data on the health effects of second-hand e-cigarette vapour. Most researchers focus on the acute effects, but as e-cigarettes are a relatively new product, certainly on a mass-market scale, we still do not fully understand the potential long-term health consequences of inhaling these vapours regularly, especially in confined spaces.
I would argue—it seems from the clause that the Minister agrees—that we need to be careful, particularly with our children. We do not want to addict a whole load of generations to this habit. We do not want others to experience second-hand vapours. There have been cases of people dying of second-hand smoking. As the Minister has said, we know that second-hand vapour can cause asthma and other lung diseases.
Parliament itself has been a place where one experiences second-hand vaping. I was pleased to see last year that Mr Speaker had put notices in the Tea Room and elsewhere around the House stating that there should be no vaping in public. We are due to vote shortly, as you said, Mr Pritchard; even during votes, I have gone into the ladies’ rest rooms, where we have a little seating and sofa area, and found female MPs vaping, including one member of the Cabinet. It is prevalent in all parts of society. We should not be exposed to such things in the workplace. Children, in particular, should not be exposed to such chemicals at all.
Clause 139 will amend the Health Act 2006 by inserting a new chapter, “Vape-free places in England”, which will establish a framework for prohibiting the use of certain vapes in designated areas and in vehicles in England, ensuring that specific places remain vape-free, much like the existing rules for the smoke-free environment. Does the Minister intend there to be an overlap? Clearly it would be much simpler, both for enforcement and for understanding among the public, if there were a direct overlap with the incongruity between the smoke-free and vape-free environments. I know that some say that if we make places vape-free we are encouraging people to smoke, but they cannot smoke there either, so that seems to be a false argument.
Andrew Gwynne
We have had a good discussion on the clause. I sincerely thank the shadow Minister for the leadership that she has shown over a good number of years on this issue. I am not just saying that because her boss, the shadow Secretary of State, the right hon. Member for Melton and Syston (Edward Argar), is in the Public Gallery, gazing his beady eye over the Conservative Benches to see what is happening—I am sure that is precisely what he is doing.
In all fairness to the shadow Minister, she has taken a consistent view on vaping, which in some regards goes beyond the scope of the Bill. I know that it frustrates her, and indeed perhaps one or two Members on my own Benches, that the scope of the Bill does not go as far as creating a nicotine-free generation as well as a smoke-free one. I put on record my thanks and appreciation to her for championing this issue over a good number of years. I know that is why she supports the clause, as she said, and perhaps secretly supports a number of the other clauses that she has abstained on in Divisions—probably to further wind up the hon. Member for Windsor.
On the clause, there is evidence that second-hand exposure to vaping may worsen asthma in children and teenagers. There are also wider concerns about young people taking up vaping and becoming addicted to nicotine. To protect children and vulnerable groups, we are therefore taking powers to consider whether certain places, such as public transport, should be vape-free as well as smoke-free.
It is important that we consider exemptions for certain settings, particularly those with the intention of helping adult smokers to quit. I hope that that reassures the hon. Member for Farnham. That is an important aspect for us to consider, and it will be explored through consultation.
Gregory Stafford
Just for those listening, I should say that I am the Member of Parliament for Farnham and Bordon. The people of Bordon will be very upset if they are not mentioned.
Andrew Gwynne
I am sure it has. I was using shorthand, Mr Pritchard, and the wonderful people at Hansard will of course have the hon. Gentleman’s full title. Being the Member for Gorton and Denton, I know how important it is that we reference both Gorton and Denton, so I take the hon. Gentleman’s point.
Many public venues and spaces have already put in place their own policies on vaping. For example, many hospitals and public transport providers have banned vaping on their premises. Subject to consultation, the clause will merely make those bans official.
There is an emerging evidence base, and it is important that we continue to monitor it. That is why my Department, my officials and I, as the Minister for public health and prevention, are in regular contact with stakeholders. I have to tell the hon. Member for South Northamptonshire that that includes Cancer Research UK, which is a major stakeholder of the Bill. It is also important to put clearly on the record that it fully supports the measures in the Bill. I do not want anybody reading Hansard at subsequent stages, such as on Report or in the House of Lords, to be under the misapprehension that Cancer Research UK does not fully support the Bill, because it does.
Turning to the hon. Member for Windsor, I am not sure that I am going to take public health advice derived from a briefing from the office of idiotic economic arguments, otherwise known as the IEA. It is not clear whether the IEA gets funding from the tobacco and vaping industry, but I suspect that it does. Therefore, we have to take what it says with a large modicum of prejudice thrown in.
Jack Rankin
I think the Minister is teasing me ever so slightly. I just want to say that I did write what I said; it was not given to me by the IEA.
Andrew Gwynne
The hon. Gentleman obviously wrote it after being inspired by his wonderful dinner with members of the idiotic economic arguments committee. I only half jest and half pull his leg, because I will never forgive the IEA for crashing the country’s economy, but we are not here to talk about the last Conservative Government, under the leadership of Liz Truss.
I do have some sympathy with some of the points that the hon. Gentleman made. We agree—and I think it has already been established—that vaping is less harmful than smoking and can be an effective smoking cessation tool, so that is an area that we definitely want to get right. Clearly, we want to continue to ensure that adult smokers can use vapes as a quit aid, while protecting others from the risks of vaping. That is why only places that are smoke-free can also become vape-free. To avoid unintended consequences on adult smoking rates, which the hon. Gentleman has raised on a number of occasions, the scope and impact of any future restrictions will be carefully considered. We will design the regulations in a manner that does not result in greater smoking harm.
I want to politely educate the hon. Gentleman on the process of secondary legislation, as he is a new Member—I do not mean this disrespectfully. Every statutory instrument that comes before a Delegated Legislation Committee appears on the Order Paper for a subsequent day on the Floor of the House of Commons. Before the Adjournment debate and the House adjourns, and after whatever votes we have had on the business of the day, there is something called the remaining orders of the day, which is all the secondary legislation that has been approved in Delegated Legislation Committees.
Should a Member shout “Object”, that leads to a deferred Division of the whole House. When the hon. Gentleman goes through the No Lobby, gets his pink card and puts a “No” next to Government legislation, as I am sure he has done on umpteen occasions since 4 July, that is a vote of the whole House on a statutory instrument that has been passed by a Delegated Legislation Committee. On all the measures that we introduce through secondary legislation, he will have the opportunity —I am sure his Whip and the shadow Health Secretary are taking note—to shout “Object” and cause a deferred Division.
On the question of who will enforce vape-free legislation, I accept that vaping is easier to conceal than smoking, and therefore it is much easier to enforce a prohibition on smoking in a designated area than to prevent someone from having a sly puff on a vape, but this policy is about ensuring consistency, notwithstanding the difficulties there will be in enforcing it. As we have argued before, the majority of the British public are law-abiding citizens. This does not need to be a heavy-handed policy. Most people will enforce it themselves, and they will encourage those around them to be considerate to others.
In England, enforcement of any extension of smoke- free or vape-free places is expected to be undertaken by the same allocated teams within local authorities that currently enforce smoke-free legislation. That is typically the responsibility of the environmental health teams within local authorities. As with smoking in a smoke-free premise, someone found to be vaping in a vape-free premise in England may be issued with a fine on conviction of up to £200, or an on-the-spot fine of £50.
In Scotland, enforcement of any extension of smoke-free or vape-free places is expected to be undertaken by local environmental health officers, which is the case now with existing smoke-free places. As with smoking in smoke-free places, those vaping in a vape-free place in Scotland face a fine on conviction of up to £1,000, or a £50 on-the-spot fine.
In Wales, enforcement of any extension of smoke-free or vape-free places is expected to be undertaken by local authorities, which are responsible for enforcing existing smoke-free legislation. The police are also authorised to enforce the smoke-free requirements in relation to private cars carrying children. As with smoking in a smoke-free place, those vaping in a vape-free place in Wales face a fine on conviction of up to £200, or a £100 on-the- spot fine.
In Northern Ireland, local councils are primarily responsible for enforcing the existing smoke-free rules; we would expect that to extend to vape-free places as well. As with smoking in a smoke-free place, those vaping in a vape-free place in Northern Ireland face a fine on conviction of up to £1,000, or a £50 on-the-spot fine.
The Chair
With this it will be convenient to discuss clauses 145, 151 and 156 stand part.
Andrew Gwynne
The clauses will amend the Health Act 2006, the Smoking, Health and Social Care (Scotland) Act 2005, the Public Health (Wales) Act 2017 and the Smoking (Northern Ireland) Order 2006 by inserting new provisions relating to heated tobacco-free places. They provide for the Secretary of State in England, Scottish Ministers, Welsh Ministers, and the Department of Health in Northern Ireland to designate certain places and vehicles as heated tobacco-free, but only where they are already smoke-free. They also require that appropriate signs must be displayed in or near the heated tobacco-free place, and they give powers to set requirements in respect of those signs.
In addition to making it an offence to use a heated tobacco device in a heated tobacco-free place, the clauses also place duties on persons who control or manage heated tobacco-free places, which can include drivers of heated tobacco-free vehicles, to ensure that their premises or vehicles remain heated tobacco-free. In Scotland, the obligation is to not knowingly permit another to use a heated tobacco device in a heated tobacco-free place; in England, Wales and Northern Ireland, the obligation is to cause someone who is using heated tobacco in a “free from” place to stop using the device. The difference in approach is a result of amending existing legislation in a devolved area, but the practical effect will be the same.
The provisions for England will also provide powers for the Secretary of State to create defences to permit the use of heated tobacco devices during a performance if that use is justified to preserve the artistic integrity of the performance.
There is no safe level of tobacco consumption. All tobacco products are harmful, including heated tobacco products. There is evidence from lab studies of the toxicity of heated tobacco. There are less harmful, tobacco-free products that can support people to quit instead of using an alternative tobacco product. It is therefore important that heated tobacco products be included within the scope of the Bill.
We are considering making all currently smoke-free indoor places heated tobacco-free, and making outdoor spaces heated tobacco-free. However, that is subject to consultation. There is a statutory duty to consult, as I have mentioned on umpteen occasions, before bringing forward regulations to designate any spaces heated tobacco-free. I therefore commend the clause to the Committee.
Dr Caroline Johnson
Clause 140 and the associated provisions for the other parts of the United Kingdom provide powers for the Secretary of State to prohibit the use of heated tobacco products in England in places that are already smoke free. That will need to be enforced by people who may not be familiar with heated tobacco devices. Will the Minister comment on the training?
I have only once come across a heated tobacco device at a dinner at Westminster. I initially thought the gentleman was vaping at the table, but it turned out he was using a heated tobacco device, which I had a look at—I had never seen anything like it before. It may be all well and good in metropolitan London, where people may be more familiar with heated tobacco, but how will people who are not familiar with these devices and have perhaps never heard of them be expected to recognise them and know they are not legal?
Has the Minister any plans on how to educate the public on the presence of heated tobacco, what it is used for and what the devices look like, in order that the law can be enforced? How will he do so without providing an advert for it to people who are old enough to buy it—at least in the short term, until it becomes illegal?
Jack Rankin
That is effectively the argument I am advancing. In terms of the quantum of harm as a percentage of a cigarette, I do not know. As I understand it, even though we do not fully know yet the dangers of heated tobacco, it is similar to vaping in that we do not want anybody to take it up, but if someone smokes we would prefer them to use it as a cessation device. I understand that that is the way they are marketed.
Jack Rankin
The Minister is disagreeing, but he can combat that in his speech.
Jack Rankin
My hon. Friend’s points have been noted for the record. From what I have read and seen in the representations to the Committee and more widely, heated tobacco seems to me to be similar to vaping, in the sense that we do not people to start it as a product, but it is less harmful than cigarettes, so we should try to facilitate a way for people to use those methods as cessation devices.
Andrew Gwynne
I will come to the shadow Minister’s point at the end, but first I want to nail the pernicious lie peddled by the tobacco industry that there is a tobacco product that is an adequate smoking cessation tool. There is no form of tobacco that is safe. That is why we are stopping the sale of tobacco in any form to anybody born on or after 1 January 2009. That is a clear aim and objective of the Bill.
I do not want to rehearse old arguments but, taking us back to the almost two-day-long debate we had on clause 1, I made it clear that we are effectively saying to the tobacco industry that as far as its market base is concerned in the United Kingdom—in England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland—this is as good as it gets. There will be no other route to peddle this deadly, toxic ingredient called tobacco that, were Sir Walter Raleigh to bring it to these shores today, would be illegal. However, because we have a 500-year history, which the shadow Minister kindly researched and gave us chapter and verse on in the debate on clause 1, we know we are where we are as a consequence of the tobacco industry. We will heaven and earth, however, to make sure that there is no other route for the tobacco industry to grow its market share. The lie that heated tobacco is a smoking cessation tool is precisely that—a lie.
There are smoking cessation tools that we are championing that are tobacco-free, which is why we have a differential between vapes and tobacco products in the Bill. We recognise that vaping has a value as a smoking cessation tool, but I will never, ever concede that another tobacco product is a smoking cessation tool.
Tobacco is uniquely harmful. It kills two thirds of its user base. It is a major cause of death and of cancer in this country to this day. Whether it is cigarettes, cigars or heated tobacco, tobacco is tobacco, and tobacco is dangerous. I will not concede to the hon. Member for Windsor on the tobacco industry’s lie that heated tobacco is a smoking cessation tool. He wants to switch on the conveyor belt, albeit slowly, but that conveyor belt is stopping—and stopping for good.
The shadow Minister raises an important point about how people will identify heated tobacco products if they are not aware what such products look like, in order for the measure to be self-enforcing in the way that not smoking in smoke-free places has largely been self-enforced, and as we expect measures on vaping to be. I reassure her that when the measures in the Bill are enacted, there will be a comprehensive information campaign so people will be aware of what is restricted as a consequence of its measures. That should raise awareness of products such as heated tobacco without promoting them, as the hon. Member for Windsor would like, as a pseudo-miraculous device for people to quit their addiction.
As I say, there is no safe level of tobacco consumption. For that reason, I commend the clause to the Committee.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 140 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 141
Amendments consequential on sections 136 to 140
Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
The Chair
With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
Schedule 17.
Clause 146 stand part.
Schedule 18.
Clause 152 stand part.
Schedule 19.
Clause 157 stand part.
Schedule 20.
Dr Johnson
Clause 141 is fairly self-explanatory and links to schedule 17, which contains the amendments to other legislation consequential on clauses 136 to 140. I do not have any specific comments to make on it.
Andrew Gwynne
These clauses and schedules ensure that the definitions in existing legislation align with those used in the Bill, and that references are accurate and reflect any provisions inserted into or removed from the relevant Acts. I therefore commend the group to the Committee.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 141 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Schedule 17 agreed to.
Clauses 142 to 146 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Schedule 18 agreed to.
Clauses 147 to 152 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Schedule 19 agreed to.
Clauses 153 to 157 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Schedule 20 agreed to.
Clause 158
Power to prohibit vaping etc on ships
Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
Dr Johnson
Clause 158 relates to shipping. I think a question was raised earlier about why ships were specifically excluded. That is partly because ships are important enough to have their own specific, separate clause. Clause 158 amends section 85 of the Merchant Shipping Act 1995 and makes provision regarding safety regulations that are made under that Act to provide for vape-free and heated tobacco-free provision for ships and hovercraft, corresponding to provisions in the Health Act 2006.
As I mentioned in an early sitting of this Bill Committee—I am glad that the Minister enjoyed the history of tobacco—maritime history and tobacco are inextricably linked. The allure of tobacco in the new world enchanted European sailors and left an indelible mark on global commerce as well as on our culture. Famous sailors, both factual and fictional, were smokers, from Captain Cook—who came from a place very close to where I was born, Marton in Middlesbrough—to Ernest Shackleton, and from Popeye the sailor man to Captain Haddock in the Tintin books. Smoking was a fact of life—worryingly, even aboard wooden vessels.
For four centuries, seamen and passengers used cigarettes, pipes and matches, which were a significant cause of maritime fires and disasters. The earliest dated clay pipe comes from a ship that sank off Alderney in the Channel Islands, probably in November 1592. A sea captain wrote in Fraser’s Magazine for Town and Country in 1875, I think, a piece entitled “The Dangers of the Sea”. In it, he chastised the carelessness of merchant seamen. He said:
“It is to be regretted that in all classes of merchant ships smoking below is an acknowledged custom. Jack lies on his dirty bed of straw with pipe in mouth, reading some old scrap of a newspaper, or the pages of a novel, and not unfrequently falls asleep with the burning embers beside him”,
adding that the mystery is not why the ship in question was burned,
“but why such accidents are not constantly occurring from this and other causes.”
Indeed, we talked earlier in Committee about the dangers of house fires from people falling asleep while smoking in bed.
More than eight decades later, in a 1957 booklet, the Ministry of Transport still blamed smoking more than any other reason for fires on board ships. It said:
“Lighted cigarettes smoked surreptitiously are abandoned in combustible cargo and cause fires which smoulder unnoticed for days before bursting into flame. They are thrown away on deck where the wind catches them and blows them into an open port, hatch, or ventilator where they may land on inflammable material. They are left on the edges of ashtrays in the saloon or dropped from men’s hands as they fall asleep.”
With reports like that, it is no wonder that smoking was eventually banned in the maritime context.
Ordered, That the debate be now adjourned.—(Taiwo Owatemi.)
Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Fifteenth sitting)
(Limited Text - Ministerial Extracts only)
Read Full debateThursday 30th January 2025
(1 year, 6 months ago)
Public Bill CommitteesTobacco and Vapes Act 2026 Read Hansard Text Amendment Paper: Public Bill Committee Amendments as at 30 January 2025 - (30 Jan 2025)
The Committee divided: - Ayes: 1 / Noes: 9 - Question accordingly negatived.
This text is a record of ministerial contributions to a debate held as part of the Tobacco and Vapes Act 2026 passage through Parliament.
In 1993, the House of Lords Pepper vs. Hart decision provided that statements made by Government Ministers may be taken as illustrative of legislative intent as to the interpretation of law.
This extract highlights statements made by Government Ministers along with contextual remarks by other members. The full debate can be read here
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
Dr Johnson
We are talking about something that will be illegal in the United Kingdom and how United Kingdom law is enforced. My question relates to how people might behave in other countries’ waters on the basis of local laws. The question is, if this is a law that we are bringing in to apply to British ships, how will the Government expect it to apply when the British ship is not in a British port or in British waters, but perhaps in international or foreign waters? It could lead to difficulties in compliance and potential jurisdictional conflicts where the local laws do not agree. If the ship is operating in another nation’s territorial waters, that country might have its own laws on vaping or smoking. Which law prevails? Another question is when trying to enforce a ban when transporting humanitarian aid or refugees, in that the people who are being picked up might not realise that there is a ban. How would that be enforced in such circumstances?
Some people might ask whether the extent of the regulations for vaping and heated-tobacco devices is too inflexible? Such devices do not pose the same fire risks as cigarettes or pipes, although they are not without risk. Modern Royal Navy deployments, as I understand them, can typically last six to nine months, and vaping is used when smokers are trying to quit as a cessation tool. What discussions has the Minister had about the health of our military personnel deployed for such periods of time? How will he ensure access to nicotine replacement therapy and smoking cessation services so that we are not leaving people without access to what would, for them as an adult, be a legal product?
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Care (Andrew Gwynne)
It is a pleasure to see you back in the Chair, Mr Pritchard. There is light at the end of the tunnel: today is the day that we will have a Bill in one shape or another, having reached the end of Committee stage and deliberated everything; and if not, of course everything that has not been debated gets accepted anyway, so we will have a Bill.
The clause amends an existing regulation-making power in section 85 of the Merchant Shipping Act 1995, so that any safety regulations—this is what we are talking about here. Health and safety regulations in merchant shipping that are made under section 85 provide for heated tobacco and vape-free provision for ships, which will correspond with the provisions in the Health Act 2006.
The shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham, put a couple of questions. We have the power to make provision about health and safety in the merchant shipping sector already, under the 1995 Act. Those powers are already there, are already being implemented and are already being enforced. All that this measure will do is extend the provision to vapes and heated-tobacco devices, to bring it into line with everything else we have done over our debates.
The matter is one for the Department for Transport. It owns this policy, and health and safety in merchant shipping. We will continue to work with the Department for Transport as we consider any future regulations to create additional smoke-free places, but it is for the Department for Transport to implement and to enforce health and safety regulations in merchant shipping, as it does now. It will continue to do that, but with an extension of its powers. With that, I commend the clause to the Committee.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 158 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 159
Application to Parliament
Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
Dr Johnson
This is an interesting clause, because it applies the Bill to the parliamentary estate. According to Erskine May, there has been some confusion about whether statute law can apply inside the parliamentary estate, because of the principle of exclusive cognisance. That means that Parliament has control over its own internal matters and that not all laws automatically apply within Parliament. To quote from Erskine May directly:
“Actions in respect of which exclusive cognizance is claimed and has been admitted are not restricted to formal acts of either House. This privilege has been held to extend to the sale of intoxicating liquor within the precincts of the House, though those responsible did not hold a licence.”
Smoking, for example, has technically been prohibited in the Commons Chamber, public and Members’ Lobbies and Committee Rooms since 1694. According to Erskine May, MPs agreed
“That no Member do presume to take tobacco in the gallery of the House or at a committee table”.
Around the estate, however, historically it was the custom to smoke in the bars and the Tea Room, and in the Committee Corridor outside this very Committee Room we are in today. There are legal exceptions and exemptions that are worth discussing now.
The Office of the Parliamentary Counsel published guidance on Crown application in 2021 and noted that the Palace of Westminster is Crown land. The guidance explains the general presumption that an Act does not bind the Crown unless it does so expressly or by necessary implication. Often, an Act includes a clause on Crown application, specifying whether the Act applies to Crown land, but the Health Act 2006 does not include such a clause.
The position set out by case law is that the Health Act 2006 does not apply to the Crown, as in the 2017 case of R (on the application of Black) v. Secretary of State for Justice. In that case, the prisoner, named Mr Black, was serving an indeterminate sentence at Her Majesty’s Prison Wymott. He was a non-smoker with a number of health problems that were exacerbated by tobacco smoke—we talked about prisoners and vaping earlier. He complained that the smoking ban was not being properly enforced in the common parts of prisons, and issued proceedings for judicial review of the Secretary of State’s refusal to provide access to the NHS smoke-free compliance line to prisoners.
The Supreme Court unanimously dismissed Mr Black’s appeal, holding that Parliament must have intended the Crown to not be bound by the smoking ban, otherwise it would have made an express provision for it in the Act. In the words of Lady Hale:
“there are powerful indicators in the language of the Act itself that the Crown was not to be bound by the smoking ban.”
In 2013, the Joint Committee on Parliamentary Privilege noted that the ambiguity had led to many inconsistencies in statute law. That Committee considered that it was not practicable to resolve the inconsistencies without sweeping retrospective change, which could have unforesee- able consequences. It concluded that in the absence of legislation, the safest way forward—however undesirable it might be as a statement of principle—was to reiterate and formalise the current presumption that legislation does not apply to Parliament unless it expressly provides otherwise. That was agreed on, and now there is a rule that legislation creating individual rights that could fit with parliamentary activities must expressly say that it applies within Parliament.
Here we are today, with clause 159, which stipulates that the Bill and regulations made under it will apply to the parliamentary estate. The Bill does not replace the smoke-free provisions in the Health Act 2006 and does not otherwise provide directly for the smoke-free restrictions discussed above. There is no obvious means by which clause 159 will place the parliamentary estate within the scope of the 2006 Act. However, clause 136 enables Ministers to add to the list of places designated as smoke-free by introducing new regulations under proposed new section 4(1) of that Act. It is therefore possible for new regulations to designate the parliamentary estate as smoke-free, but I have seen no indication from the Government that they plan to do that. Clause 136 also enables Ministers to make exceptions to smoke-free legislation.
The extent to which the Bill can be used to place the parliamentary estate within the scope of smoke-free legislation is therefore a matter for legal interpretation, and I would be interested to know the Minister’s thoughts on that. Earlier in the debates that we have been having during line-by-line scrutiny of the Bill, we talked about the snuff that is kept outside the door, with the Doorkeepers, and the Minister suggested there was no reason why that could not continue, but I am interested to understand his thoughts in relation to clause 159.
Andrew Gwynne
This is a standard clause. It provides that the measures in the Bill and regulations made under it apply to the parliamentary estate. I hope that Opposition Members do not think that the parliamentary estate should be above the law that Parliament will, I hope, pass. This clause requires the parliamentary estate to adhere to the tobacco and vaping control measures under the Bill and regulations made under it, ensuring consistent application of the law. The wording of the clause was previously agreed with the Clerks of both Houses of Parliament—both the House of Commons and the other place—so that the whole of the parliamentary estate will be covered by the same laws that will apply outside the parliamentary estate. It will include, for example, the shops, to ensure that there is consistent application of the law. It appertains to the House of Commons shop, the House of Lords shop and the retail outlets on the parliamentary estate. Those regulations that apply to retailers outside the parliamentary estate will apply within the parliamentary estate.
Dr Johnson
Is the Minister aware of any retailers on the parliamentary estate at the moment that actually do sell any tobacco or cigarette products?
Andrew Gwynne
No, I am not, but the point is that the law has to apply equally within Parliament and outside of Parliament. There has to be a consistency of approach, and just because a person cannot get the House of Commons snuff from the House of Commons shop does not mean that the House of Commons shop should have a different set of regulations from any other retail outlet in the United Kingdom. Parliamentary Clerks and the Cabinet Office were consulted before the inclusion of this clause. They were content for it to be included, and that is why it is in the Bill.
Dr Johnson
I know that the Minister enjoyed grandstanding about equality, but I am not sure that he actually answered the question. Clause 160 talks about consequential amendments, and one question that I asked him about clause 159 was whether it would have the effect that he says it will. It says:
“To the extent that this Act or regulations made under it would not…apply in relation to the Parliamentary Estate, they do so apply”,
but it does not include the Health Act. As there are consequential amendments in clause 160, would there need to be a consequential amendment to the Health Act? It is that Act, as amended, that provides for the regulations in relation to smoking.
Andrew Gwynne
Clause 160 and schedule 21 provide further general consequential amendments relating to this Bill. The specific amendments to existing legislation are set out in the schedule. Those amendments help the provisions in the Bill to function effectively within the existing legislative framework. This is a standard supplementary clause that enables the legislation to function as intended following the Bill’s introduction.
The shadow Minister refers to different aspects of legislation. Many of the clauses that we have already debated bring together existing tobacco control legislation in one place, so the consequential powers that we are seeking through this clause will make sure that the existing legislation set out in the schedule will be amended, to ensure the smooth running of the legislation. I therefore commend the clause and schedule to the Committee.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 160 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Schedule 21 agreed to.
New Clause 2
Tobacco products statutory scheme: consultation
“(1) The Secretary of State must consult and report on the desirability of making a scheme with one or more of the following purposes—
(a) regulating, for the purposes of improving public health, the prices which may be charged by any producer or importer of tobacco products for the supply of any tobacco products,
(b) limiting the profits which may accrue to any producer or importer in connection with the manufacture or supply of tobacco products,
(c) providing for any producer or importer of tobacco products to pay to the Secretary of State an amount calculated by reference to sales or estimated sales of those products (whether on the basis of net prices, average selling prices or otherwise) to be used for the purposes of reducing smoking prevalence and improving public health.
(2) In this section—
‘importer’, in relation to tobacco products, and ‘tobacco products’ have the meaning as in Part 5 (see section 112),
‘producer’, in relation to tobacco products, is to be construed in accordance with the meaning of ‘production’ in Part 5 (see section 112).”—(Mary Kelly Foy.)
This new clause would require the Secretary of State for Health and Social Care to consult on proposals for regulating the prices and profits of, and to raise funds from, tobacco manufacturers and importers.
Brought up, and read the First time.
Mary Kelly Foy (City of Durham) (Lab)
I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
I will not be pushing this new clause to a vote; nevertheless, I think it is a policy that the Minister should take into consideration. New clause 2 would require the Secretary of State for Health and Social Care to consult on a “polluter pays” levy. The Minister will know that I and members of the all-party parliamentary group on smoking and health have campaigned for this for some time. It was also recommended in the Khan review in 2022 and, more recently, by the Institute for Public Policy Research’s commission on health and prosperity.
Action on Smoking and Health estimates that smoking costs England more than £43 billion a year. That is more than £27 billion in productivity costs, nearly £14 billion in social care costs and more than £1.8 billion in NHS costs—and much more. A “polluter pays” levy on tobacco manufacturers could raise around £700 million a year, with that money coming from tobacco companies’ profits, not raised from consumers.
A levy of this kind would provide sustainable funding for tobacco control and could be given to organisations such as Fresh, the tobacco control programme in the north-east, which does such vital work in ensuring that no one gets left behind as we move to a smoke-free future. In fact, all the Government’s programmes on tobacco, including mass media campaigns, incentives for pregnant women and support for smokers with mental health problems, could be funded many times over, with cash to spare that could go to other public health initiatives.
This would be subject to consultation, but the model proposed by Action on Smoking and Health would cap the wholesale price of tobacco, similarly to how we cap the prices of essential utilities and hence limit profits. The big four tobacco companies account for 95% of UK sales and make excessive profits selling a highly addictive product that kills two in three long-term users when used as intended by the manufacturer. Tobacco manufacturers make an estimated £900 million in profit per year in the UK, with an average net operating profit margin of about 50%. For context, the average profit margin for UK manufacturing is 10%.
There is widespread public support for this measure: 79% of adults in Great Britain would support a levy on the tobacco industry, with only 5% opposed. I hope the Government will seriously consider this, because it would complement the intentions of the Bill.
Sarah Bool
I am almost glad that my hon. Friend the Member for Windsor is not here, because at this point we would probably be launching into a much longer and more protracted debate, so we are lucky in that regard—[Interruption.] I am being chastised by the shadow Minister.
We should consider that interesting point and its knock-on impact because, in common with the hon. Member for City of Durham, I have concerns about the illicit tobacco market. I very much agree that we should be moving to a new system of preventive medicine. As I have mentioned, I have type 1 diabetes, and I want to see a greater and earlier use of technology to prevent long-term problems. The new clause provides a useful point for discussion, and I thank the hon. Lady for tabling it.
Andrew Gwynne
I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for City of Durham for tabling the new clause, because it allows us to have a debate about a really important matter. As has been discussed, the new clause would require the Secretary of State for Health and Social Care to consult and report on a scheme to regulate and to raise funds from the prices and profits of tobacco manufacturers and importers.
Duty on tobacco raises around £8.8 billion a year. The Government’s preferred approach is to continue with a proven and effective model of dealing with tobacco products through increases in tobacco excise and through duties. This generates finances that can support a full range of public services, including public health and the NHS, as well as smoking cessation services. We believe the proposed scheme would be complex to implement and might take several years to materialise.
Alongside the Bill, we are taking strong action to reduce the affordability of tobacco, which is an effective measure to trigger smoking cessation. The United Kingdom already has some of the highest tobacco taxes in the world. The World Health Organisation recommends that total taxes on tobacco are at least 75% of the retail price on typical cigarettes. The United Kingdom comfortably meets this target, with taxes at around 80% of selling price.
As announced at the autumn Budget 2024, duty rates on all tobacco products were increased in line with the tobacco duty escalator by 2% above retail price index inflation. The duty rate on hand-rolling tobacco was increased by a third of 10%, to 12% above RPI inflation, to reduce the gap with duty on cigarettes. Those changes came into effect on 30 October 2024.
Cigarettes are also subject to minimum excise tax, which sets a minimum amount of duty collected on a pack of cigarettes. That discourages manufacturers from selling cheap cigarettes, as it reduces the profitability of cigarettes sold at or below minimum excise tax trigger prices. The new minimum excise tax is £8.93 for a pack of 20, and it applies to cigarettes sold at or below £13.59 for a pack of 20.
We are still going further on tobacco tax. As announced in the autumn Budget, there will be an additional one-off increase for all tobacco duties. That will come into force on 1 October 2026, when the vaping duty comes into effect. From a financial perspective, that will maintain the incentive for smokers to switch to vaping once the new excise duty on vaping products comes into force.
On one last technical note, His Majesty’s Treasury can consult on tobacco taxation and fiscal policy at any time, so that does not need to be set out in the Bill. For those reasons, I ask my hon. Friend the Member for City of Durham to withdraw her new clause.
Mary Kelly Foy
I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion.
Clause, by leave, withdrawn.
New Clause 4
Ban on supply of cigarette filters
“(1) The Secretary of State must make regulations under section 140 of the Environmental Protection Act 1990 having the effect of prohibiting the supply of relevant cigarette filters or cigarettes containing relevant cigarette filters, whether by way of sale or not, in the course of a business.
(2) The notice required under section 140(6)(b) of the Environmental Protection Act 1990 in relation to the regulations mentioned in subsection (1) must be published no later than the end of the period of 6 months beginning with the day on which this Act is passed.
(3) In this section,
‘relevant cigarette filter’ means a filter which contains plastic and which is intended for use in a cigarette, whether as part of a ready made cigarette or to be used with hand rolling tobacco or other substances to be smoked in a cigarette.”—(Dr Caroline Johnson.)
This new clause requires the Secretary of State to make regulations which would prohibit the supply of cigarette filters which contain plastic or cigarettes containing cigarette filters which contain plastic. The regulations would be made under section 140 of the Environmental Protection Act 1990.
Brought up, and read the First time.
Sarah Bool
I agree. That is a good conclusion to have worked through, which we perhaps had not had the opportunity to turn our attention to. I would like to see a provision of this nature. I am intrigued, as my hon. Friend said, by why the Minister has not included filters in the outright initial ban. That should be considered, perhaps on Report.
As a general principle, we need to look after our natural environment. A ban on the plastic contained in cigarette filters would surely be a sensible move. As my hon. Friend has said, however, the filters do not achieve what anyone was hoping and do not make smoking safer. I therefore think we must have further discussion. Will the Minister give a little more explanation on some of the rationale and whether the measure can be included in the Bill?
Andrew Gwynne
I am grateful to the shadow Minister for moving this new clause for debate and to my hon. Friend the Member for Dartford for tabling it. New clause 4 would require the Secretary of State to make regulations under the Environmental Protection Act 1990 to prohibit the supply of cigarette filters that contain plastic or cigarettes containing cigarette filters that contain plastic.
I am incredibly sympathetic to the premise of the new clause. Cigarette filters, as we heard from the shadow Minister, have historically been marketed as making smoking safer, and we know that smokers can perceive cigarettes with a filter as tasting smoother and being of lower risk. Evidence shows that there is no proven health benefit to cigarette filters. All tobacco products are harmful to health.
However, as with all regulations, it is important that any measures are fully considered and evidence-based, to ensure that there will not be any unintended consequences—[Interruption.] Did the hon. Member want to intervene?
Sarah Bool
The hon. Member for Dartford has now arrived, so perhaps the Minister would be so kind as to allow him to intervene.
The Chair
Hang on. It is for the Minister to decide who he wants to give way to. Minister, carry on speaking; if somebody catches your eye, it is up to you whether you allow them to intervene.
Andrew Gwynne
If my hon. Friend the Member for Dartford wants to intervene, he need only ask.
Jim Dickson
I am quickly coming to the point of my intervention; I reserve the right to say something else later. The Minister has outlined the fact that the health benefits of filters are non-existent, but is he also aware that, according to Keep Britain Tidy, cigarette butts make up 66% of all littered items and cost UK local authorities around £40 million per year to clean up? Would he consider that relevant to this new clause?
Andrew Gwynne
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Litter is something that this Government take seriously. Tobacco litter remains a concern for the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, with cigarette filters consistently scoring as the most littered item in surveys. Local authorities already have the powers to punish those who litter through prosecution. They can also create smoke-free areas through the use of public space protection orders.
Nevertheless, my colleagues in DEFRA believe that the best way to tackle littering of filters is through a reduction in smoking rates. We therefore continue to support all initiatives designed to encourage people to quit smoking. This Bill aims to reduce smoking prevalence in the UK. Our published modelling, which I have referred to, shows that smoking rates in England among 30-year-olds and under could be close to zero as early as 2050, which is likely to reduce overall litter levels, as there will be fewer tobacco and tobacco-related products sold and disposed of each year.
We need to be very wary of unintended consequences. I know for certain that my hon. Friend, like me, does not want to give tobacco manufacturers the opportunity to greenwash and to say that they have created a product that is not only healthier for people because it has a filter—we know that that is utter nonsense, but it is the lie they have peddled to date—but better for the environment. We will not allow the tobacco industry to improve its reputation by making itself appear to be environmentally aware and taking action.
Jim Dickson
Without necessarily endorsing the ban that the new clause would lead to, is the Minister prepared to think about supporting a move to other parts of Government, and perhaps about even moving to ban cigarette filters, as part of the consultation that his Department is about to undertake? That would generate momentum for what he rightly says would be a positive move for the environment and for health.
Andrew Gwynne
We are very clear about the measures in the Bill that we will consult on, but I reassure my hon. Friend that I am in regular contact with Ministers across Government about a whole range of issues, not least because the health mission board has decided that I have a lead role in bilateral discussions on the health mission. I will certainly continue to raise the issue of cigarette end litter with colleagues in DEFRA, and to see whether we can get DEFRA to use some of the powers at its disposal in order to meet the aims and ambitions of my hon. Friend, but it need not be included in this Bill specifically, because it is a DEFRA-led policy.
The shadow Minister and the hon. Member for South Northamptonshire asked why cigarette filters were not covered in earlier clauses. In the Bill, we have taken a power to update the legislation to include tobacco devices and accessories that enable a tobacco product to be consumed, such as a pipe. It would not cover filters, as they do not enable a product to be consumed. That is the legalistic reason that cigarette filters are not in scope of the Bill, as we debated way back when. I ask my hon. Friend to withdraw the new clause.
The Chair
Given that the shadow Minister moved the new clause, it is for her to press or withdraw. Shadow Minister, do you want to withdraw it or press it to a vote?
Dr Johnson
That depends on whether the Minister can assure me that he intends to bring forward legislation under the Environment Act 2021 to deal with plastic filters.
Andrew Gwynne
That is way above my pay grade. It is a matter for the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, and I have already assured my hon. Friend the Member for Dartford that I will speak to ministerial colleagues in DEFRA. We are very sympathetic to the aim of the new clause, but we do not support the Bill being the mechanism to achieve it.
Jim Dickson
I thank once more the shadow Minister for moving my new clause in my absence. If I were moving it, I would be content, given the Minister’s assurances to pursue this matter, to withdraw it. I know that there are others on both sides of the Committee who will work with me to make the right representations to DEFRA to see the point of the new clause carried forward in another part of Government. Were I moving my own new clause, I would be happy to withdraw it at this point.
Sarah Bool
I find high-strength nicotine pouches incredibly concerning, as I had not been aware of their existence. There is a Member of the House who happens to use them; I had simply thought that that hon. Member was partaking of mints, but that is clearly is not the case.
This is an interesting area. As the shadow Minister has noted, pouches are discreet. When they are aimed at children, it is hard for parents to know what their children are taking, so they are particularly pernicious in their effect.
Many hon. Members will know that I often go back to social media. Apparently one of the main brands is called Zyn and is now trying to promote the trending of “Zynfluencers” via Instagram. The aim is to appeal to the younger generation. I do not think that that is acceptable, especially when some of these pouches are of a strength of up to 100 mg, as the shadow Minister mentioned.
Like the shadow Minister, I ask whether the Minister has any thoughts about whether the cap should be reduced further, because 20 mg may not be the right number. Given that the impact of long-term use of these pouches, which I happened to raise with the Member I saw taking one, includes mouth sores, gum irritation and oral cancer, I think we probably need a further discussion about them. I welcome any comments that the Minister may have.
Andrew Gwynne
I am grateful to the shadow Minister for moving the new clause tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle upon Tyne East and Wallsend.
New clause 5 would introduce a ban on the manufacture and sale of high-strength nicotine products, with the maximum level of nicotine in a pouch set at 20 mg. Unlike nicotine vapes, there is currently no set nicotine limit for nicotine pouches; as we have heard, nicotine strengths vary from 2 mg per pouch to as high as 150 mg per pouch. There is also significant variation in these products internationally.
I am incredibly sympathetic to the arguments from the shadow Minister, from the hon. Member for South Northamptonshire and indeed from my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle upon Tyne East and Wallsend. It is important to define the correct and safe nicotine level of a nicotine pouch. That is why we are already taking powers in the Bill that would allow the Government to limit the amount of nicotine in a pouch and to ban any other ingredient in a pouch that might be harmful.
We believe that secondary rather than primary legislation is the appropriate way to legislate on these matters, for all the reasons we have already debated. Legislation always has to be flexible enough to be amended based on new and emerging evidence. That allows the Government to set the right level of technical detail to ensure legal clarity. We will therefore consider the matter very carefully in our consultations post Royal Assent. I note that the shadow Minister referred to “if” we decide to use these regulations. Let me be very clear: these are precisely the kinds of things we will be looking at when we are moving like the clappers to get the regulations through.
In addition, nicotine pouches will be covered by all our other measures designed to reduce the appeal and accessibility of such products to children, such as powers to restrict flavours and regulate packaging, as well as those on general advertising. The shadow Minister gave an example of promotions that give out iPads in exchange for empty pouches. We clearly need to look at that specific promotion, but we are confident that it would be banned under the advertising restrictions that we have already debated and agreed to in Committee. I therefore ask her to withdraw the amendment.
Dr Johnson
I am grateful for the Minister’s comments. I understand that he is sympathetic. I know that he is going to go like the clappers; “going like the clappers” is apparently an RAF phrase, but I doubt that he is going as fast as a Tornado jet or a Typhoon—[Interruption.] Maybe he will: he is indicating that he might.
Andrew Gwynne
I reassure the shadow Minister that on some of these things I am going to go supersonic.
Dr Johnson
Hear, hear. However, in reality, regulations take time, and a sonic boom could damage the windows of this beautiful Palace of Westminster.
I do not know where the hon. Member for Newcastle upon Tyne East and Wallsend, who tabled new clause 5, has got the 20 mg figure, but my understanding is that 20 mg is a higher level than we would expect in a cigarette. Anything stronger than a cigarette could certainly not be considered a stop smoking device: it will just get people more addicted to nicotine than they would ever wish.
I will press the new clause to a vote, because I feel very strongly that over time we will see these pouches becoming the latest thing for children to become addicted to, despite the Minister’s best intentions.
Question put, That the clause be read a Second time.
Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Sixteenth sitting)
(Limited Text - Ministerial Extracts only)
Read Full debateThursday 30th January 2025
(1 year, 6 months ago)
Public Bill CommitteesTobacco and Vapes Act 2026 Read Hansard Text Amendment Paper: Public Bill Committee Amendments as at 30 January 2025 - (30 Jan 2025)
The Committee divided: - Ayes: 2 / Noes: 9 - Question accordingly negatived.
The Committee divided: - Ayes: 2 / Noes: 10 - Question accordingly negatived.
The Committee divided: - Ayes: 3 / Noes: 9 - Question accordingly negatived.
The Committee divided: - Ayes: 3 / Noes: 9 - Question accordingly negatived.
This text is a record of ministerial contributions to a debate held as part of the Tobacco and Vapes Act 2026 passage through Parliament.
In 1993, the House of Lords Pepper vs. Hart decision provided that statements made by Government Ministers may be taken as illustrative of legislative intent as to the interpretation of law.
This extract highlights statements made by Government Ministers along with contextual remarks by other members. The full debate can be read here
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
Dr Johnson
New clause 6 will introduce a process of consultation and scrutiny of the licensing regulations for the retail sale of tobacco products, when the relevant sections of the Tobacco and Vapes Act come into effect. New clause 6 is designed to ensure that the implementation of the licensing system is transparent and effective.
Subsection (1) lays out the following requirement:
“Within two months of the passing of this Act, the Secretary of State must publish draft regulations for the licensing of retail sale of tobacco products etc in England.”
The Secretary of State says he is working like the clappers, at supersonic speed, so I am sure that that should be more than achievable, but the new clause holds his feet to the fire on timing.
The provision is crucial because it sets a clear and reasonable timetable for the initial stage of the regulatory process. The publication of the draft regulations will provide a starting point for discussions about the rules governing the sale of tobacco, enabling relevant stake-holders, including retailers, public health experts and consumer advocacy groups, to examine responsive proposals. The two-month window allows the Secretary of State to move promptly—like the clappers—while also giving enough time for key groups to review the draft and contribute meaningfully to the conversation.
Subsection (2) further strengthens the consultation process, and it states that after the draft regulations are published, the Secretary of State must publish a call for evidence. This is an invitation for the public, industry participants and experts to provide their view on the proposed regulations. The goal of the call for evidence is to gather insights on the efficacy and suitability of the draft regulations, helping the Government to understand whether the proposals will achieve the intended outcomes and whether they are feasible in practice. Furthermore, the subsection ensures that the Business and Trade Committee will be invited to scrutinise the draft regulations, ensuring that any regulations that are developed are subject to thorough review and are held to the highest standards of accountability.
Subsection (3) requires that within six months of passing this Act, the Secretary of State must lay before both Houses of Parliament a report that responds formally to the evidence gathered through the consultation process, details the Government’s response to the feedback received and outlines any changes made to the draft regulations. In addition, the Government will address any recommendations put forward by the Business and Trade Committee in their scrutiny of the draft regulations.
The report will provide a mechanism for the Government to explain how public input and parliamentary scrutiny have influenced the final regulations, thus reinforcing the transparency and accountability of the process. The report also gives Parliament the opportunity to assess whether the Government sufficiently considered evidence before moving forward with the regulations.
Finally, subsection (4) introduces an important safeguard, and states:
“The Secretary of State may not make an order under section 168(4) bringing Sections 16 to 18 and Schedules 1 and 2 into force until the report specified in subsection (3) has been laid before both Houses of Parliament”.
This ensures that significant changes are not implemented without the proper review, approval and scrutiny of the House.
In summary, the new clause will strengthen the legislative framework of the Tobacco and Vapes Bill by ensuring the licensing regulations on the sale of tobacco products are subject to a thorough process of consultation, scrutiny and formal response. By requiring early publication, gathering public input, inviting parliamentary review and ensuring that no major changes are enacted before proper scrutiny, the new clause guarantees that the regulations will be well informed, balanced and accountable.
It will also ensure that the Minister does indeed go like the clappers, because it gives quite a tight timetable. One of my concerns, which I raised earlier in the debate, was that it would take some time for the regulations to come in. If we allow the time taken to bring in the regulations and consult to drag out, more children and adults will become addicted to these products, and that will be bad for the public health of the nation. The new clause provides a reasonable timetable to ensure the regulations are brought in swiftly, as the Minister has described.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Care (Andrew Gwynne)
It is good to be back after a short lunch break, Mr Pritchard; I trust Members are well nourished ahead of this afternoon’s sitting.
I am grateful to the shadow Minister for this set of amendments. They would require the Government to publish and consult on draft regulations relating to the licensing scheme in England, as set out in clauses 16 to 18 and schedules 1 and 2. The new clause stipulates that those regulations must be published within two months of Royal Assent of the Bill, and that a report on a mandated call for evidence, including a response to the Business and Trade Committee, must be laid before both Houses six months after Royal Assent.
I am sympathetic to the shadow Minister’s desire to move swiftly in this space. It is certainly my intention and the intention of the Government to move at pace—like the clappers, in supersonic fashion—in a whole range of areas. However, as with similar amendments relating to the registration scheme, we believe that new clause 6 would place an unreasonable and impractical constraint on Government. The reality is that to publish the regulations within two months of Royal Assent is simply not feasible, and the new clause does not reflect the processes and stages required for the development of proportionate, appropriate and well-considered regulations.
Development of secondary legislation takes time, and the arbitrary timescales proposed would not enable effective policy development. Forcing the Government to proceed with producing new legislation at the pace that the shadow Minister seeks to stipulate would open the Government up to the risk of creating flawed policy. Creating flawed policy carries clear risks, not least the potential for the Government’s work to be legally challenged, thereby delaying measures either for a further period of time or indeed for good.
The Bill imposes on the Secretary of State a statutory obligation to consult ahead of the introduction of any regulations. Through that process, we will be able to carefully consider views from stakeholders, including the retail sector, in order to build a licensing scheme that supports legitimate businesses while cracking down on rogue retailers.
Finally, to echo points that I have already made, the Bill has been developed in collaboration with colleagues across the United Kingdom, and such close working and close alignment will continue through the development of all secondary legislation. My concern about new clause 6 is that it risks creating inconsistencies with licensing regimes elsewhere, particularly in Wales and Northern Ireland. We are approaching this together, and that is why I ask the shadow Minister to withdraw the new clause.
Dr Caroline Johnson
We have learned from the Minister that terms such as “like the clappers”, “quickly”, “in due course” and “soon” all mean a timescale longer than publishing a draft within two months and the final version within six. In practice, that means the concerns I have expressed about the Bill are true. This will take a long time, and the Minister’s “soon” is not really soon enough.
I understand the Minister’s concern that if he does not get the work done in time, it will cause the Government problems, but the answer to that is simply to get the work done in sufficient time. The Minister has been clear all along that this is an urgent public health measure. Two thirds of the people who get addicted will die as a result of the tobacco they are consuming. Not to agree that he must produce draft regulations within two months, when he knows much of what the consultation will say—indeed, the previous Government consulted on much of it anyway—is to say that the Government will move slowly and not like the clappers at all.
I understand that he is concerned about inconsistency between the nations, but he has not expressed such concern before. In fact, throughout our debate, when we have discussed the nations, we have spoken repeatedly about respecting devolution and the ability of other nations to go at different paces, do different things in different ways, and impose different fines and other penalties.
Andrew Gwynne
I am not sure whether it is because of selective amnesia, or whether the shadow Minister has had a really good lunch, but she seems to have entirely forgotten our previous debates. We have debated the licensing regime at length, and I made it perfectly clear to the whole Committee that Scotland is doing its own thing because it believes that that works well for Scotland, but that England, Wales and Northern Ireland would be moving in lockstep on this. If she was not aware then, she should be now.
Dr Caroline Johnson
I thank the Minister for making my point, which is that some parts of the United Kingdom are choosing to do this in a different way.
Dr Johnson
But there is nothing to stop the Union doing it together. In the event that England chose to do things at a particular pace, as it has a right to do, the Scots have already chosen to do things differently, as is their right, and the Welsh and the Northern Irish could then choose to do things at the same pace—the same appropriately quick, or reasonable, pace—or they could decide that they want to go more slowly. That would be up to them. What is in the Minister’s control is to decide that he is prepared to act at a suitable pace to ensure that these regulations come into force as properly and as quickly as possible, including with scrutiny from the House.
Dr Johnson
The only thing that would inhibit the Government is not getting the work done in time—if they did not hand their homework in on time. We have all been at school and we know that if we do not hand our homework in on time, it causes us trouble. The simple fact is that the purpose of the clause is to get the Government to do their work in an appropriate time frame. So that is the point—we do not want to create a whole load of capacity in this legislation for the Government to do stuff only for them to put it on the back burner because they are too busy, do not have the time and do not see it as a priority. Legislating to have the power to do things and doing them are not the same thing. The purpose of this new clause is to make sure that the Government get them done.
Andrew Gwynne
I am grateful to the shadow Minister for her new clause 7. It would require the Government to publish and consult on draft regulations relating to the registration and information requirements set out in clauses 95 and 98. It stipulates that these regulations must be published within two months of Royal Assent of the Bill, and that a report on a mandated call for evidence, including the response to the House of Commons Business and Trade Committee, must be laid before both Houses six months after Royal Assent.
Again, I am sympathetic to the shadow Minister’s desire to move swiftly in this space, but as with her similar proposals relating to licensing, this new clause would place an unreasonable and impractical constraint on the Government. To draft and publish these regulations within two months of Royal Assent is simply not feasible, and the new clause does not reflect the required processes and stages for the development of proportionate, appropriate and well-considered regulations. Development of secondary legislation takes time, and the arbitrary timescales proposed would not enable effective policy development.
The Bill imposes on the Secretary of State a statutory obligation to consult on the appropriate parties ahead of introducing any regulations on this issue. Through this process, we will be able to carefully consider views relating to the existing notification schemes for tobacco products and nicotine vapes, as well as to get views on how a future registration scheme might work, and, importantly, use that input to shape and draft the required regulations. Forcing the Government to proceed hastily with producing new legislation opens up the risk of creating flawed policy. Creating flawed policy creates clear risks, not least the potential for the Government’s work to be legally challenged. I know that that is not what the shadow Minister wants, so I therefore ask her not to push her new clause to a vote.
Dr Johnson
I think it is inevitable that much of this will be legally challenged, because the effect of the legislation is to hamper severely an industry that has a lot of money. They are going to challenge every dot and comma of it—I am quite sure of that. The purpose, however, of this new clause is to get the Government to move at speed. The Government have been in power for more than six months now, so they cannot say that they are not capable of producing draft guidelines for regulations within six months of the date of Royal Assent, which is many weeks from now, given that they have managed to publish the Employment Rights Bill, the Renters’ Rights Bill, the Finance Bill and various other things. I do not understand why the Minister is not keener to get these things done.
I will therefore push the new clause to a vote. Yes, the Minister could get himself in trouble if he did not work quick enough, but I have every confidence that if this new clause were enacted, the Minister would—like the clappers, at supersonic speed—be more than capable. I have every confidence that the Minister is more than capable of drafting regulations within the time available if he is forced to do so.
Question put, That the clause be read a Second time.
Dr Johnson
I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
New clause 8 is designed to require the Government to produce annual reports detailing the scale of the illegal sale and availability of tobacco and vaping products. Subsection (1) would mandate the Secretary of State to prepare reports on the scale of illegal tobacco and vaping products in the UK. The reports would focus on providing a detailed overview of the prevalence and impact of illegal, counterfeit and contraband products in the market. Subsection (1) would also require the Secretary of State to lay a copy of each report before the Houses of Parliament, ensuring transparency and parliamentary oversight.
Subsection (2) outlines the specific information that each report would have to include. It stipulates that the reports would have to cover the estimated amount and value of illegal, counterfeit and contraband cigarettes and other tobacco products available for sale in the UK; the estimated amount and value of illegal or non-compliant vapes available for sale; a breakdown of the actions taken by the Government and relevant authorities to tackle the illicit sale of tobacco, tobacco products, vaping devices and vaping products; and an assessment of the impact that the illicit trade of tobacco, vapes and nicotine products had been having on public health and safety. That is crucial to understanding not just the scale of the problem, but the broader implications for public health.
Subsection (3) sets out a requirement for the first report to be laid before both Houses of Parliament within 12 months of the passing of the Act. That would ensure that the Government addressed the issue of illegal tobacco and vaping products promptly after the Bill was enacted. Subsection (4) establishes that each subsequent report would have to be laid
“annually beginning with the day on which the previous report was laid.”
That annual cycle would ensure that ongoing monitoring of the illegal trade, providing a regular and up-to-date picture of the situation in the United Kingdom.
In conclusion, new clause 8 would establish a consistent and systematic process for reporting on the illegal sale and availability of tobacco and vaping products in the UK. By producing detailed annual reports assessing the scale of the illicit trade and its impact on public health and safety, the Government would be held accountable for addressing this issue. Furthermore, the new clause would provide Parliament with the necessary information to scrutinise the actions taken by the Government to combat the illegal trade, promoting transparency and informed decision making.
Andrew Gwynne
I am grateful to the shadow Minister for bringing this discussion before the Committee today. New clause 8 would require the Government to produce annual reports on the scale of the illegal sale and availability of tobacco and vaping products and the impact on public health and safety. I am sympathetic to the hon. Lady’s aim to ensure that the benefit and progress made as a result of our measures is known and seen by the public. However, this new clause is not needed, given that the Government already publish data on the illicit tobacco market and we will be doing the same for vapes following the introduction of the new vaping products duty.
On tobacco, His Majesty’s Revenue and Customs already regularly provides data and reports on various aspects of the illicit trade. For example, HMRC periodically publishes the tobacco tax gap report, which estimates the difference between the theoretical duty liability and the actual amount of tobacco duty collected by HMRC. That report also estimates the market share of illicit tobacco. HMRC also publishes the annual outputs for tackling tobacco smuggling, which include figures on tobacco seizures, including the number of criminal prosecutions and amount of civil penalties issued. National Trading Standards, too, provides public reports and updates related specifically to enforcement activity, which include the illegal sale and importation of vapes and related products. Additionally, HMRC intends, following the introduction of the vaping products duty, to publish annual estimates of the size of the illicit market, using tax gap data as well as data on activity targeting vaping duty fraud, such as the number of seizures.
It is important that enforcement agencies produce the estimates and figures on enforcement activity, given that that is their area of expertise. An annual report from the Secretary of State would only duplicate that information. For that reason, I ask the hon. Lady to withdraw the new clause.
Dr Johnson
I thank the Minister for his detailed response to this new clause. Can he confirm that the reports are produced on an annual basis, and will continue to be produced on that basis by both relevant authorities through this Parliament?
Andrew Gwynne
It is our intention that the reports will be published in accordance with the mechanisms with which they are published now, with the frequency that they are now published. Therefore, we do not need this new obligation on the Secretary of State.
Dr Johnson
I take the Minister at his word, and beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion.
Clause, by leave, withdrawn.
New Clause 9
Prohibition on manufacture and retail of high-capacity count vaping devices
“(1) The Secretary of State must produce regulations relating to the design, manufacture and sale of vaping devices and products that ensure—
(a) refill containers cannot be attached to a vaping device post-purchase to increase a device’s overall capacity during use, or allow for multiple pods to be attached at the same time to a device to increase its functional capacity beyond a 2ml limit.
(b) devices only have a single pod or tank that does not exceed 2ml limit.
(c) refill devices do not exceed a 10ml capacity and must be sold separately and not in the form of a clink-on tank.
(2) A person commits an offence if the person—
(a) manufactures, designs for manufacture, imports or supplies for sale a vaping device that is contrary to the regulatory requirements set out in subsection (1).
(b) sells or retails a vaping device that is contrary to the regulatory requirements set out in subsection (1).
(3) A person who is guilty of an offence under paragraph (2)(a) is liable on summary conviction to a fine of £20,000.
(4) A person who is guilty of an offence under paragraph (2)(b) is liable on summary conviction to a fine of £10,000.”— (Dr Johnson.)
This new clause would seek the introduction of regulations and new offences to prohibit the manufacture, design and retail sale of high-capacity count vaping devices.
Brought up, and read the First time.
Andrew Gwynne
Again, I am grateful to the shadow Minister for bringing this important discussion to the Committee. The provision would regulate high-capacity count vaping devices, which we understand to mean so-called “big puff vapes”, or devices that provide more than 600 puffs, by ensuring that the Secretary of State regulates the amount of liquid in a tank and ensures that the refill container cannot be connected to the vape device, creating more liquid and thus more puffs.
Although I empathise with what the shadow Minister is trying to do, the Bill already provides powers that allow us to regulate for the size of a tank or refill container and the amount of liquid that can be included, as well as powers to standardise vapes and to further restrict liquid availability. In addition, the Bill contains powers that allow us to regulate the amount of nicotine in a puff, so as to restrict not only the amount of nicotine in the tank, but the amount of nicotine that can be emitted in the vapour.
We have a duty to consult on ways in which vapes and vape devices can be standardised before we make regulations. This will ensure that the right decisions are taken, based on evidence, which will reduce the legal risk to Government from any future litigation.
Moreover, many so-called big puff vapes currently on the market will be caught by the upcoming ban on single-use vapes, which will be led by the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs and comes into force on 1 June, because most of them are disposable products and do not have replaceable coils.
It is for these reasons that I ask the shadow Minister to withdraw her new clause.
Dr Caroline Johnson
The key thing is that although the Bill does have powers for all that to happen under regulation, we have already established that the regulations will take more than two months to write and more than six months to review, even after the Bill has gained Royal Assent in a few months’ time, so we will probably be sitting here next year with no restrictions at all on vapes, because the Government will not have written them. Therefore, I think it is important that in the meantime we try to use the Bill to make the most clear and important changes, including the size of the tank limit.
Question put, That the clause be read a Second time.
Andrew Gwynne
The clauses concern powers for relevant Ministers to make consequential amendments and the procedure for making regulations under the Bill. Clause 161 provides the Secretary of State with the power to make regulations that are consequential on the Bill. Clause 162 confers a power on Scottish Ministers to make provisions that are consequential on part 2 of the Bill, as well as clauses 142 to 146 and schedule 18. Clause 163 confers a power on Welsh Ministers to make provisions that are consequential on part 1 of the Bill, as well as clauses 147 to 152 and schedule 19, provided they are within their legislative competence. Clause 164 confers a power on the Department of Health in Northern Ireland to make provisions that are consequential on part 3 of the Bill, as well as clauses 153 to 157 and schedule 20.
Those regulations may amend, repeal or revoke any legislation passed before or in the same Session of Parliament as the Bill, as well as any provision made by the Bill itself. Regulations may amend primary as well as secondary legislation. During the development of the Bill, every effort was made to identify any consequential amendments that are required and to make provision for them on the face of the Bill. However, as the Bill brings together legislation that has been made over the last century, there is a small likelihood that further consequential amendments may be required to enable it to function effectively. It is therefore prudent that powers are conferred on the relevant Minister to make such changes via secondary legislation. Any regulations amending primary legislation will be subject to the affirmative procedure, in line with guidance from the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee.
Clause 165 provides that any regulations made under the Bill, except for regulations made under clauses 168 to 170, may make consequential, supplementary, incidental, transitional or saving provision. It also provides that such regulations may make different provision for different purposes and for different parts of the United Kingdom. For example, in relation to regulations made under the powers in part 5, on registration requirements for products, different provision may be needed for Great Britain and Northern Ireland, to take account of their pre-existing legislative frameworks.
Clause 166 provides for the procedures for making regulations under the Bill. Regulations made by the Secretary of State or Welsh Ministers are to be made by statutory instruments, regulations made by Scottish Ministers are to be made by Scottish statutory instruments and regulations made by the Department of Health in Northern Ireland are to be made by statutory rules. The clause also sets out in one place what is meant by the affirmative resolution procedure and negative resolution procedure for making regulations. Defining these terms is a drafting practice, and this is a standard clause that enables the measures in the Bill and regulations made under it to function effectively. I therefore commend the clauses to the Committee.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 161 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clauses 162 to 166 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 167
Extent
Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
Andrew Gwynne
This clause outlines the territorial extent of the Bill: part 1 applies to England and Wales, part 2 to Scotland, part 3 to Northern Ireland, and parts 4 to 6 and 8 to the entirety of the United Kingdom. Part 7 contains only amendments to existing legislation, and therefore, by virtue of subsection (1), its extent does not need to be explicitly stated. This is a standard clause that helps the measures in the Bill to function effectively; I therefore commend it to the Committee.
Dr Johnson
As the Minister says, clause 167 provides for the extent of the Bill. I am particularly interested in the way that part 3 extends to Northern Ireland. As part of the Windsor framework, Northern Ireland is subject to 283 Euro laws, including the EU’s tobacco directive. Article 24 of the tobacco directive says:
“Member States may not…prohibit or restrict the placing on the market of tobacco or related products”,
apparently contradicting this Bill.
Sarah Bool (South Northamptonshire) (Con)
I want to build on the shadow Minister’s point, because I raised that concern in one of the previous sittings. I want to refer to the words of the King’s counsel, Jason Coppel, of 11KBW chambers, in relation to this point. In an article published online, he notes that TPD2, the tobacco products directive,
“lays down various requirements concerning matters such as ingredients, emission levels and packaging which must be satisfied by tobacco products, vapes and other smoking products if they are to be marketed within the EU. Member States are not permitted to prohibit or restrict the placing on the market of products which satisfy these requirements (article 24(1)). However, TPD2 does not seek to harmonise domestics sales arrangements for these products and positively encourages Member States to introduce age limits on their sale (recitals (21) and (48)). The key issue is therefore whether a GSB”—
a generational sales ban—
“would be a selling arrangement or age limit which is compatible with TPD2 or a gradual prohibition on the placing on the market of tobacco and other products which meet the product requirements of TPD2, which would likely be incompatible with TPD2. There are, on any view, powerful arguments in favour of the latter view. The age limits referred to in TPD2 were limits on the sale of tobacco products to minors, not to adults. Unlike an age limit, the intention and effect of a GSB is to phase out the use of tobacco products entirely. It is equivalent in effect to an absolute ban on the sale of tobacco products, but a ban which is introduced very slowly, with an extent which increases day by day. If that analysis is correct then cl 68-69 of the Bill, if enacted, would likely contravene TPD2 regardless of whether they can be established by the Government to be a proportionate restriction in the interests of public health. It is reasonable to infer that the positions adopted by the Danish and Irish Governments were dictated by arguments along these lines. If a GSB would indeed contravene TPD2, it is relatively clear, from a series of decisions of the Northern Ireland courts applying the Windsor Framework, that TPD2 would have direct effect so as to override the GSB, pursuant to section 7A of the European Union Withdrawal Act 2018.”
I appreciate that that is heavy legalese, but it is important to stress Mr Coppel’s point. I do not feel that I had a sufficient answer from the Minister last time, so I would appreciate it if he could confirm that that has been considered.
Andrew Gwynne
Of course that has been considered. It is the responsibility of the United Kingdom Government to ensure that any legislation appertaining to Northern Ireland is compatible with the Windsor framework—that is clear. In drafting the Bill, the Government have taken into account all our domestic and international obligations. It has been put together following full consultation with Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, and we intend it to be United Kingdom-wide legislation for a smoke-free UK, in accordance with our international obligations.
Dr Johnson
I understand that that is the Minister’s intent—indeed, it would be my intent to see people in Northern Ireland, as part of our great country, be as healthy as the rest of those in the United Kingdom—but intent is not enough to make things happen, in the same way that the Government saying they will go for growth does not make it happen, particularly if they do things that have the opposite effect. What is the legal position on which the Minister believes the clause will stand?
Andrew Gwynne
The Bill is and will be, as an Act of Parliament, in full accordance with our international obligations. We will have a smoke-free United Kingdom, and the measures appertaining to Northern Ireland fit within our international and domestic obligations under the Windsor framework.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 167 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 168
Commencement: Parts 1 to 4
Andrew Gwynne
I beg to move amendment 15, in clause 168, page 121, line 1, after “force” insert
“(so far as not in force by virtue of subsection (2))”.
Clause 168(2) brings the regulation making powers under Part 1 into force on royal assent. This amendment indicates that the Welsh Ministers’ power to bring certain provisions into force is subject to that and is intended to ensure consistency with the drafting in clause 168(4).
The Chair
With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
Government amendment 98.
Clause stand part.
Clause 169 stand part.
Andrew Gwynne
Clauses 168 and 169 provide for the commencement of provisions in parts 1 to 4 and parts 5 to 8 respectively. Provisions in parts 1 to 4 come into force six months after the day the Bill is passed, with certain exceptions, including the regulation-making powers contained in parts 1 to 3, including powers to implement a licensing scheme, which will be commenced on the day the Bill is passed. Provisions to implement the smoke-free generation policy across the UK will come into force on 1 January 2027, when those born on 1 January 2009 turn 18 years old. Clause 168 also provides for the commencement of various other provisions that are specific to the devolved Governments, such as the provision to update the definition of a tobacco product in Scottish legislation. The remaining provisions in parts 1 to 4 will be commenced by regulations or by order.
Provisions in part 5 of the Bill, which relate to product and information requirements, are regulation-making powers, so they come into force on the day the Bill is passed. The majority of the provisions in part 6, such as those that prohibit the advertising of products including vaping products, will come into force on such day as the Secretary of State may appoint by regulations. Provisions in part 7 will come into force on such days as the relevant national authority may appoint by regulations. That includes regulation-making powers to create additional smoke-free places, and making smoke-free places vape-free. These are standard clauses that are required for the implementation of measures in the Bill.
I turn now to Government amendments 15 and 98, which stand in my name. These technical amendments to clause 168 have been tabled at the request of the Welsh Government and the Northern Ireland Executive. Government amendment 15 concerns powers for the Welsh Ministers to commence provisions in part 1 relating to the licensing of retail sales in Wales and the handing over of tobacco products, herbal smoking products, cigarette papers, and vaping and nicotine products, to under-age people.
Government amendment 98 concerns equivalent powers for the Department of Health in Northern Ireland to commence provisions in part 3 relating to the extension of the retailer register and the licensing of retail sales in Northern Ireland. Some parts of the provisions will be commenced automatically by clause 168(2) where they provide powers for the Welsh Ministers or the Department of Health in Northern Ireland to make regulations. Therefore, the amendment makes it clear that the power for the Welsh Ministers or the Department of Health in Northern Ireland to commence provisions cannot be used on those provisions that have already been commenced. The amendment serves to align the drafting for Wales and Northern Ireland with the equivalent provisions for England in clause 168(4). For that reason, I encourage the Committee to support the Government amendments.
Amendment 15 agreed to.
Amendment made: 98, in clause 168, page 121, line 12, after “force” insert
“(so far as not in force by virtue of subsection (2))”.—(Andrew Gwynne.)
Clause 168(2) brings the regulation-making powers under Part 3 into force on royal assent. This amendment indicates that the power of the Department of Health in Northern Ireland to bring certain provisions into force is subject to that and is intended to ensure consistency with the drafting in clause 168(4).
Clause 168, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 169 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 170
Transitional provision
Andrew Gwynne
I beg to move amendment 16, in clause 170, page 122, line 3, at end insert—
“(za) sections 19 to 22 and Schedule 3 and 4 (licensing of retail sales of tobacco products etc in Wales);”
This amendment confers power on the Welsh Ministers to make transitional or saving provision in connection with the commencement of certain provisions that they have power to bring into force by order under clause 168(5).
Andrew Gwynne
Clause 170 provides powers for Ministers in each of the devolved nations to make transitional and saving provisions. Transitional provisions address how existing legislation will be phased out or replaced by new legislation. Saving provisions preserve certain rights, obligations or legal consequences from existing statute. The power to make transitional and saving provisions is given to Ministers in each devolved Government to aid the implementation of specific measures in the Bill within their legislatures. This is a standard provision that enables measures in the Bill to function effectively.
Government amendment 16 is being made at the request of the Welsh Government. This technical amendment provides powers to the Welsh Ministers to make transitional or saving provisions in connection with the commencement of provisions relating to the retail licensing of products in Wales. As the Welsh Ministers have the power to commence those provisions by order, it is appropriate that they have the power to make transitional or saving provisions in connection with their commencement. That aligns with the approach taken throughout the Bill whereby such powers are given to the relevant Minister responsible for their commencement. For that reason, I encourage the Committee to support Government amendment 16.
Amendment 16 agreed to.
Clause 170, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 171
Short title
Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
Andrew Gwynne
The clause currently provides that the Bill may be cited as the Tobacco and Vapes Act 2024 once passed. As it is now 2025, the short title will be updated when the Bill, as amended in Committee, is printed to refer to 2025 rather than 2024.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 171 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Question proposed, That the Chair do report the Bill, as amended, to the House.
Andrew Gwynne
This is a remarkable moment in parliamentary history, because we have got the Tobacco and Vapes Bill through Committee. I thank you, Mr Pritchard, as well as Sir Roger, Sir Mark and Mr Dowd, for your diligent chairing. Please pass on the whole Committee’s appreciation for the way in which you have kept us going throughout.
I thank all Members on both sides of the Committee for the role that they have played, particularly as many are new Members. It has been a baptism of fire for some of them, but I hope that they have found the experience of amending, scrutinising and debating a really important piece of legislation to be of benefit. New Members should be assured that their Whips have already noted that this will be their first Committee of many.
Mary Kelly Foy (City of Durham) (Lab)
I wonder whether the Minister will allow me to indulge in a history lesson of my own, as that seems to have been the order of the day for most of the Committee’s sitting days. While I am overjoyed that the Bill is one step closer to becoming law, I must make the Committee aware of a previous smoking ban introduced in the 16th century by Pope Urban VII. During his short period as pope—it lasted 13 days—he went like the clappers to bring in a smoking ban, before he snuffed it. That ban was taken further by Pope Urban VIII, who banned snuff and threatened to excommunicate anyone smoking it, chewing it or sniffing it in or anywhere near a church. I only wish that the hon. Member for Windsor was in his place to realise that the Bill is positively liberal compared to the papal bulls of those popes.
Andrew Gwynne
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for her intervention. Perhaps it shows that history does matter and we can learn from it. Never mind Henry VIII powers: perhaps when we bring forward the regulations, we will have papal powers to go further.
Dr Johnson
As the Minister is aware from my previous contributions, I am delighted to see both the Bill’s passage and that the Government have taken on board some of my amendments to the Conservative Bill, which was similar. I very much enjoyed the history lesson from the hon. Member for City of Durham and hope that the Minister’s version of “like the clappers” will be just as quick.
Andrew Gwynne
I am grateful to the shadow Minister. We have been greatly entertained by her history lessons—I now know more about snuff than I ever wanted to. We have had tradition. We spent such an inordinate amount of time on clause 1: I thought we would never reach this stage. We were certainly not going like the clappers or supersonic at the start. I suspect that we have heard a large amount from ChatGPT—[Interruption.] Well, I think perhaps my hon. Friend the Member for City of Durham certainly did a good google.
Dr Johnson
The Minister credits me with more tech savvy than I have. ChatGPT is well outside my portfolio.
Andrew Gwynne
Well, if we have not heard from ChatGPT, we have certainly had, through the Institute of Economic Affairs, a bit of ChatSHT.
Andrew Gwynne
I take it back, Mr Pritchard—only because the hon. Member for Windsor is not here.
The Chair
By the way, just for the record, that is not an endorsement or a lack of endorsement of that organisation; it is just a question of whether that language is parliamentary.
Mr Barros-Curtis
I join the Minister in congratulating everyone involved in the Bill, including the Clerks and everybody behind the scenes. On the question of history, I think I recall from our copious sessions the mention of LADbible, in which the Minister has featured four times. I wonder whether we can make history by getting him featured a fifth time once the Bill gets into statute.
Andrew Gwynne
I am almost like a standing article now for LADbible. I am not sure whether that makes me a social media influencer—about which we have heard a lot during the course of the debate—or just a media tart. My hon. Friend is absolutely right that it was not one, two or three but four features we got out of LADbible —and who knows; we might get a fifth.
I sincerely thank the Clerks, the Hansard staff and the Doorkeepers. We do not thank them enough for the work that they do to keep Committees like this going, and I want to place that on the record.
Dr Danny Chambers (Winchester) (LD)
As a new Member, and someone who came into politics with a passion for health—specifically public health—and addressing inequality, I am really proud to have been a part of this group. I remember the chief medical officer saying that the Bill will not only have the biggest impact on public health of any legislation in about 20 years, but it will be one of the biggest interventions to help even up inequality, especially in life expectancy. As a new Member, and as part of the Liberal Democrat health team, I am really pleased to be involved in this.
Unfortunately he is not here today, but on several occasions the hon. Member for Farnham and Bordon pontificated on what the flavour of unicorn milk in vapes might be. I never contributed but, as the only vet here, I could have made some assumptions. Assuming that the unicorn’s horn does not influence the flavour of the milk, we can probably extrapolate that it tastes very much like a horse’s milk. As someone who has regularly had to milk a mare to feed a newborn foal, I can tell the Committee that when the mare does not enjoy that, the milk often sprays everywhere—sometimes into one’s mouth. It does not taste terrible, but I would not advise vape manufacturers that it is a good flavour to put into vapes.
Andrew Gwynne
I now know more about the equine sector than I ever wanted to. We have got to the accidental squirting of horse milk into one’s mouth, but of course, we started the Committee with a whole tale about getting one’s hoof trimmed—which, I have to say, Mr Pritchard, has a whole other meaning in Manchester.
Sadik Al-Hassan (North Somerset) (Lab)
As a pharmacist, I have greatly enjoyed all Members’ contributions to the debate in Committee, but I am very much looking forward to a future in which I do not have to do a stop smoking consultation again.
Andrew Gwynne
And so say all of us. The last thanks I want to give are to my private secretary and my team of officials from the Department of Health and Social Care, because they are the ones who have been up late most days, ensuring that the packs are ready for me and the Government Whip, that I am well briefed and that I have the time to question them about the various clauses. I am really grateful to them.
We have had a lot of good, detailed scrutiny. Most of the debates have been good natured, and it has shown the House of Commons at its best. To echo the hon. Member for Winchester, this is a landmark Bill. It will be the single most important piece of public health legislation for a generation, and we are all part of that. We have made history.
Jim Dickson (Dartford) (Lab)
There is one last person the Committee should thank, and that is the Minister himself. I am sure we will get a chance to say this again on Third Reading, when we will no doubt debate these things again, but I have to say that the passion, good humour, knowledge and commitment with which he has taken this legislation through Committee is something for which we should all be grateful. Thank you, Minister.
Dr Johnson
I think there is another person to whom thanks need to go on the record, and that is my right hon. Friend the Member for Richmond and Northallerton (Rishi Sunak). Let us not forget that while this Bill is coming through now, the vast majority of it is similar in content to—in some cases, it is entirely verbatim—the Bill that came through a similar Committee last spring, thanks to the visionary leadership of my right hon. Friend.
Andrew Gwynne
First, I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Dartford for his thanks. It would be remiss of me not to pay tribute to the former Prime Minister. When we were debating clause 1—all those many, many moons ago—I said that it took a lot of political bravery for a Conservative Prime Minister not just to go as far as he did, but to announce it at Conservative conference. I know from some of my Conservative friends that it raised significant eyebrows within that conference hall, but it was the right thing to do. That is why the Labour Opposition supported this legislation in the last Parliament. We would have loved to have seen it taken through the wash-up procedure before the general election, but that was not part and parcel of the deal that was put.
However, we are here today with this Bill, which includes many of the things that the shadow Minister wanted to have included in her Bill. What is transformative is that once what we have taken through Committee today—we have Report and Third Reading to go—gains Royal Assent, it will ensure that no child born after 2009 will legally be able to be sold tobacco products ever again. We are stopping that conveyor belt, as I have described it, for the tobacco industry, and through stop smoking services and support we are coming after the market share that they have protected. We are going to make sure that vapes are never promoted, advertised or displayed in a way that will encourage children to take up vaping.
The Bill is a landmark and it is life-changing. In just 25 years’ time, if the Government’s impact assessment is correct, the smoking prevalence of people under the age of 30 will be near to zero. It started here, with this Bill. Well done, and thanks to all Members.
The Chair
Before I put the question, if I may, I will put on record my thanks to you, Minister—I actually said “you”; I mean the hon. Gentleman. I am breaking my own rules, or the House’s rules. I thank the Minister, the shadow Minister, the Government Whip, the hon. Member for Coventry North West, and the shadow Whip, the hon. Member for Farnham and Bordon, who is not here today. I thank all Members for their contributions to debating this serious subject, but with good humour.
I give particular thanks to the Clerks. Frankly, Parliament could not operate without our fantastic Clerks. I thank the officials from Hansard, who literally keep us all on the record, and the fantastic Doorkeepers who do such a great job with Divisions. I also thank the other Chairs who have shared this Bill Committee with me.
The Committee has almost finished its work; all that is left is for me to put the question formally. I encourage all Members to go like the clappers—but within the law—to their constituencies.
Question put and agreed to.
Bill, as amended, accordingly to be reported.
Wednesday 26th March 2025
(1 year, 4 months ago)
Commons ChamberTobacco and Vapes Act 2026 Read Hansard Text Watch Debate Amendment Paper: Consideration of Bill Amendments as at 26 March 2025 - large print - (26 Mar 2025)
18:01 - The House divided: - Ayes: 137 / Noes: 304 - Question accordingly negatived.
18:14 - The House divided: - Ayes: 159 / Noes: 307 - Question accordingly negatived.
18:26 - The House divided: - Ayes: 72 / Noes: 304 - Question accordingly negatived.
18:38 - The House divided: - Ayes: 92 / Noes: 303 - Question accordingly negatived.
18:54 - The House divided: - Ayes: 366 / Noes: 41 - Question accordingly agreed to.
This text is a record of ministerial contributions to a debate held as part of the Tobacco and Vapes Act 2026 passage through Parliament.
In 1993, the House of Lords Pepper vs. Hart decision provided that statements made by Government Ministers may be taken as illustrative of legislative intent as to the interpretation of law.
This extract highlights statements made by Government Ministers along with contextual remarks by other members. The full debate can be read here
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Care (Ashley Dalton)
I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Judith Cummins)
With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
New clause 1—Review of contaminated e-liquid—
“(1) Within six months of the passage of this Act, the Secretary of State must conduct a review into the prevalence of contaminated e-liquid in England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland.
(2) The review required under subsection (1), must include, but is not limited to an assessment of—
(a) the awareness of the issue of contaminated e-liquid,
(b) the extent of e-liquids found spiked with illegal substances,
(c) the measures in place to tackle the importation of contaminated e-liquid,
(d) measures used by other jurisdictions to combat the importation and prevalence of contaminated e-liquid, and
(e) options for further regulating e-liquid to limit the dangers of contamination.
(3) In conducting the review required under subsection (1), the Secretary of State may consult with whoever they see fit.
(4) The Secretary of State must report to Parliament following the conclusion of the review.
(5) The Secretary of State has the power to make regulations under this section including the power to make—
(a) offences relating to the contamination of e-liquid, including the distribution, importation, supply and merchandising or tampering of such products,
(b) offences relating to the online sale of e-liquid containing illegal substances,
(c) provisions to improve the ability to identify, test and intercept contaminated e-liquid, and
(d) provisions recommended in the review implemented by subsection (1).
(6) For the purposes of this section,
‘contaminated e-liquid’ means e-liquid which has been mixed with or includes an illegal substance.”
This new clause would require the Secretary of State to conduct a review and publish a report on the impact of contaminated e-liquid and ways to reduce its prevalence. It would give the Secretary of State the powers to make regulations in relation to curbing the harm caused by contaminated e-liquid.
New clause 2—Ban on the supply of plastic cigarette filters—
“(1) The Secretary of State must make regulations under section 140 of the Environmental Protection Act 1990 having the effect of prohibiting the supply of relevant cigarette filters or cigarettes containing relevant cigarette filters, whether by way of sale or not, in the course of a business.
(2) The notice required under section 140(6)(b) of the Environmental Protection Act 1990 in relation to the regulations mentioned in subsection (1) must be published no later than the end of the period of 12 months beginning with the day on which this Act is passed.
(3) In this section,
‘relevant cigarette filter’ means a filter which contains plastic and which is intended for use in a cigarette, whether as part of a ready made cigarette or to be used with hand rolling tobacco or other substances to be smoked in a cigarette.”
This new clause requires the Secretary of State to make regulations, within two years, which would prohibit the supply of cigarette filters which contain plastic or cigarettes containing cigarette filters which contain plastic. The regulations would be made under section 140 of the Environmental Protection Act 1990.
New clause 3—Amendment of the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018—
“(1) The European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 is amended as follows.
(2) In section 7A of the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018, after subsection (4), insert—
‘(4A) This section does not apply in relation to Directive 2014/40/EU of the European Parliament and of the Council of 3 April 2014 on the approximation of the laws, regulations and administrative provisions of the Member States concerning the manufacture, presentation and sale of tobacco and related products and repealing Directive 2001/37/EC.’”
This new clause asserts the primacy of the regulations made in this Bill which affect Northern Ireland in relation to the EU tobacco directive 2014/40/EU.
New clause 4—Ban on manufacture and sales of high-strength nicotine pouches—
“(1) It is an offence to manufacture a high-strength nicotine pouch.
(2) It is an offence to—
(a) sell or expose for sale a high-strength nicotine pouch, or
(b) offer or expose a high-strength nicotine pouch for sale.
(3) It is an offence for a person to have a high-strength nicotine pouch in their possession with intent to supply it to another in the course of business.
(4) In this section ‘high-strength nicotine pouch’ means a nicotine pouch that—
(a) is intended for oral use,
(b) is not intended to be inhaled,
(c) does not contain tobacco, and
(d) contains more than 20 milligrams of nicotine per pouch.
(5) It is a defence for a person charged with an offence under subsection (2) to prove that they took all reasonable steps to avoid the commission of the offence.
(6) A person who commits an offence under this section is liable—
(a) on summary conviction, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding the general limit in a magistrates’ court, or a fine, or both;
(b) on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 2 years, or a fine, or both.”
This new clause provides for a ban on the manufacture and sale of high-strength nicotine pouches.
New clause 5—Report on sale of vaping products to facilitate child sexual exploitation—
“(1) Within six months of the passing of this Act, the Secretary of State must produce a report on—
(a) the potential prevalence of retailers with a personal or premises licence selling vaping products which facilitate child sexual exploitation; and
(b) whether licensing authorities have adequate powers to investigate retailers which may be connected to the sale of vaping products to facilitate child sexual exploitation.
(2) A copy of this report must be laid before both Houses of Parliament.
(3) In this section—
‘vaping’ has the same meaning as in Part 1 (see section 48),
‘licensing authority’ has the same meaning as in Part 1 (see section 16),
‘personal licence’ has the same meaning as in Part 1 (see section 16),
‘premises licence’ has the same meaning as in Part 1 (see section 16).”
New clause 6—Requirement for retailers of vapes in England to include age-verification technology—
“(1) The Secretary of State may make regulations making it an offence for a tobacco retailer who sells vapes on premises in England to sell vapes that do not contain approved age-gating technology.
(2) The Secretary of State may by regulations specify the requirements with which any age-gating technology must comply, which must include (but need not be limited to)—
(a) the information, including biometric information, that a user must provide to the age-gating technology in order to be able to use the vape;
(b) the steps that the age-gating technology must require the user to take in order to verify their identity and that they are aged 18 or over before first activating the vape for use;
(c) the steps which the age-gating technology must require the user to take in order to verify their identity following activation of the vape, and the frequency with, and circumstances in, which the age-gating technology must require these steps to be taken;
(d) the requirements with which the age-gating technology must comply in order to ensure the security of the information, including personal data, provided to it by users;
(e) the technical specifications which the age-gating technology must meet in order to ensure that it is compatible with vapes made by different manufacturers.
(3) The Secretary of State may by regulations under this section make further provision about requirements with which tobacco retailers must comply.
(4) In this section, ‘age-gating technology’ means technology designed to prevent the use of vaping products by persons aged under 18.
(5) Before making regulations under this section the Secretary of State must consult any persons the Secretary of State considers it appropriate to consult.
(6) Regulations under this section are subject to the affirmative resolution procedure.”
This new clause would introduce a requirement for retailers of vapes in England to include age-verification technology.
New clause 7—Requirement for retailers of vapes in Wales to include age-verification technology—
“(1) The Welsh Ministers may make regulations making it an offence for a tobacco retailer who sells vapes on premises in Wales to sell vapes that do not contain approved age-gating technology.
(2) The Welsh Ministers may by regulations specify the requirements, with which any age-gating technology must comply, which must include (but need not be limited to)—
(a) the information, including biometric information, that a user must provide to the age-gating technology in order to be able to use the vape;
(b) the steps that the age-gating technology must require the user to take in order to verify their identity and that they are aged 18 or over before first activating the vape for use;
(c) the steps which the age-gating technology must require the user to take in order to verify their identity following activation of the vape, and the frequency with, and circumstances in, which the age-gating technology must require these steps to be taken;
(d) the requirements with which the age-gating technology must comply in order to ensure the security of the information, including personal data, provided to it by users;
(e) the technical specifications which the age-gating technology must meet in order to ensure that it is compatible with vapes made by different manufacturers.
(3) The Welsh Ministers may by regulations under subsection (2) make further provision about requirements with which tobacco retailers must comply.
(4) In this section, “age-gating technology” means technology designed to prevent the use of vaping products by persons aged under 18.
(5) Before making regulations under this section the Welsh Ministers must consult any persons that the Welsh Ministers consider it appropriate to consult.
(6) Regulations under this section are subject to the affirmative resolution procedure.”
This new clause would introduce a requirement for retailers of vapes in Wales to include age-verification technology.
New clause 8—Prohibition of advertising of vaping, nicotine and heated tobacco products—
“(1) The Secretary of State must within six months of this Act being passed make provisions by regulations for the prohibition of advertising of—
(a) a vaping product; or
(b) a nicotine product; or
(c) a heated tobacco product.
(2) Before making regulations under this section the Secretary of State must consult any persons the Secretary of State considers it appropriate to consult.
(3) Regulations under this section may not be made unless a draft of the instrument has been laid before and approved by a resolution of each House of Parliament.”
This new clause commits the government to consult on proposals for prohibiting the advertising of vaping, nicotine or heated tobacco products.
New clause 9—Marketing of products to existing smokers—
“(1) The Secretary of State, or a person authorised by the Secretary of State, may make provision about the nature and inclusion of health warnings or disclaimers relating to a relevant product to ensure that the product is marketed exclusively to existing smokers as an alternative to smoking.
(2) In this section, ‘relevant product’ refers to—
(a) a vape, or
(b) a nicotine product.
(3) Compliance with this section is considered a defence to a charge in relation to an offence under Part 6.”
This new clause will allow the Secretary of State to place an additional disclaimer or warning on products.
New clause 10—Displays of products or prices in England—
“(1) The Secretary of State may by regulations impose limitations or requirements on retailers in relation to the display, in the course of business, of—
(a) relevant products in a place in England where the products are offered for sale,
(b) empty retail packaging of relevant products in a place in England where the products are offered for sale,
(c) prices of relevant products in a place in England where the products are offered for sale, or
(d) advertisements for relevant products.
(2) In subsection (1), reference to a product includes anything that represents the product.
(3) Regulations under this section—
(a) must make provision—
(i) for ensuring that an adult is able to be informed that a premises sells a related product,
(ii) for ensuring that a consenting adult is able to view the related products and information relating to them,
(iii) relating to the appropriateness of a display to ensure that it does not appeal to children, and
(iv) relating to the location of a display in a place in England where the products are offered for sale;
(b) may create offences for a failure to comply with the regulations;
(c) must provide for any offence to be punishable–
(i) on summary conviction, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding the general limit in a magistrates’ court, or a fine, or both;
(ii) on conviction or indictment, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 2 years, or a fine, or both;
(d) are subject to public consultation;
(e) are subject to the affirmative resolution procedure.
(4) Compliance with regulations made under subsection (3) is considered a defence to a charge in relation to an offence under Part 6.
(5) For the purposes of this section—
‘consenting adult’ means an adult who has entered any licensed premises that sells nicotine, vapes, and tobacco products;
‘relevant products’ mean—
(a) tobacco products,
(b) vaping products, or
(c) nicotine products.”
This new clause will allow for the Secretary of State to restrict how vapes and nicotine products are advertised in store windows and in store, while ensuring that adult smokers are still able to determine that a premises sells a product.
New clause 12—Review of provisions—
“(1) The Secretary of State must, in consultation with the appropriate ministers in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland—
(a) carry out a review of the provisions for relevant products in—
(i) sections 1 to 6 (sale of tobacco etc);
(ii) sections 50 to 55 (Part 2 Sale and Distribution: Scotland: sale of tobacco etc);
(iii) sections 68 to 72 (Part 2 Sale and Distribution Northern Ireland sale of tobacco etc);
(iv) sections 90 to 93 (Product requirements etc);
(v) section 94 (Non-compliant images);
(vi) sections 101 and 102 (Matters dealt with by 2016 Regulations);
(vii) Part 6 (Advertising and Sponsorship);
(b) prepare and publish a report setting out the conclusions of the review;
(c) lay the report before Parliament.
(2) The review in subsection (1) must—
(a) set out the objectives intended to be achieved by the provisions as set out under subsection (1)(a),
(b) assess the extent to which those objectives have been achieved, and
(c) make a recommendation on whether the provisions as set out under subsection (1)(a) remain appropriate and necessary.
(3) The first review under this section must be published and laid before Parliament before the end of the period of five years beginning with the day on which the Tobacco and Vapes Act 2025 is passed.
(4) If the review recommends under subsection (2)(c) that one or more of the provisions set out under subsection (1)(a) are no longer appropriate or necessary, the Secretary of State must make arrangements for the motion mentioned in subsection (5) to be tabled in both Houses of Parliament within a period of 28 sitting days beginning immediately after the review is laid before Parliament under subsection (3).
(5) The form of the motion in subsection (4) is—
‘That the provisions of sections 1 to 6, 50 to 55, 68 to 72, 90 to 94, 101 and 102 and Part 6 (Advertising and Sponsorship) of the Tobacco and Vapes Act 2025 should expire.’
(6) If both Houses of Parliament approve the motion in the form set out in subsection (5) (or in such form as may be subsequently amended by the House to specify one or more of the provisions of sections 1 to 6, 50 to 55, 68 to 72, 90 to 94, 101 and 102 and Part 6), moved by the Secretary of State in accordance with subsection (4), the provisions specified in the motion shall expire at the end of the period of 21 days beginning with the day on which the second House approves the motion.
(7) Subsequent reports must be published at intervals not exceeding five years.
(8) In this subsection, ‘Relevant products’ refers to—
(a) tobacco products;
(b) nicotine products.”
This new clause requires a review of the necessity of provisions relating to the sale restrictions for tobacco products and nicotine products. Published every 5 years, the review could recommend that certain provisions are no longer required, and Parliament would have an opportunity to expire them.
New clause 13—Reports on roadmap to a smoke-free United Kingdom—
“(1) The Secretary of State must, on or before the relevant day and at least once every five years after that day, prepare and lay before Parliament a report setting out—
(a) how the Secretary of State expects the smoke-free target will be achieved;
(b) the steps proposed to achieve that target (which may include the setting of interim targets);
(c) an analysis of statistical data relating to the achievement of the smoke-free target.
(2) The reports must set out targets and proposed steps relating to geographical areas or categories of people in respect of which there are higher than average rates of smoking.
(3) The Secretary of State must consult the appropriate national authorities when preparing the reports.
(4) In this section—
(a) ‘appropriate national authority’ means—
(i) Welsh Ministers,
(ii) Scottish Ministers, and
(iii) Executive Ministers in Northern Ireland.
(b) ‘relevant day’ means the last day before 25 December 2026 which is a sitting day for both Houses of Parliament;
(c) ‘the smoke-free target’ means the end of the smoking of tobacco products in the United Kingdom.”
This new clause requires the Secretary of State to prepare and lay before Parliament five-yearly reports containing a roadmap to a smoke-free country including targets and specific interventions for populations with high prevalence rates.
New clause 14—Prohibition on supply of cigarette filters—
“(1) The Secretary of State must make regulations having the effect of prohibiting the supply of cigarette filters or cigarettes containing cigarette filters, whether by way of sale or not, in the course of a business.
(2) Subsections (6), (8), (9), (10), (10A), (10B), (10C) and (10D) of section 140 of the Environmental Protection Act 1990 apply to regulations under this section as they apply to regulations under those sections.
(3) The notice required under section 140(6)(b) of the Environmental Protection Act 1990 as applied by subsection (2) in relation to the regulations mentioned in subsection (1) must be published no later than the end of the period of 12 months beginning with the day on which this Act is passed.
(4) In this section, ‘cigarette filter’ means a filter which is intended for use in a cigarette, whether as part of a ready-made cigarette or to be used with hand rolling tobacco or other substances to be smoked in a cigarette.
(5) Regulations under this section are subject to the affirmative resolution procedure.”
This new clause requires the Secretary of State to make regulations which would prohibit the supply of cigarette filters or cigarettes containing cigarette filters.
New clause 15—Advertising exemptions for specialist vaping retailers—
“(1) A person does not commit an offence under any of the sections 114 to 118 in relation to an advertisement whose purpose or effect is to promote a vaping product if the advertisement—
(a) Is in a specialist vaping shop
(b) Is not visible from outside the specialist vaping shop
(c) Complies with the requirements (if any) specified by the appropriate national authority in regulations as to the inclusion of health warnings and information.
(2) Regulations under subsection (1) are subject to the negative resolution procedure.
(3) In this section—
‘appropriate national authority’ —
(a) In relation to specialist vaping shops in England, means the Secretary of State,
(b) In relation to specialist vaping shops in Wales, means Welsh Ministers,
(c) In relation to specialist vaping shops in Scotland, means Scottish Ministers, and
(d) In relation to specialist vaping shops in Northern Ireland, means the Department of Health for Northern Ireland;
‘shop’ includes a self-contained part of a shop (and, in relation to a self-contained part of a shop,
‘premises’ means that self-contained part);
‘specialist vaping shop’ means a shop selling vaping products by retail (whether or not it sells other things) more than 90% of whose sales on the premises in quest derive from the sale of vaping products and vaping accessories.
(4) For the purposes of determining whether a shop is a specialist vaping shop the sales are to be measured by the sale price—
(a) During the most recent period of 12 months for which accounts are available, or
(b) During the period for which the shop has been established, if it has not been established long enough for 12 months’ accounts to be available.”
This new clause would enable specialist vaping retailers to operate and provide free advice and consultations to smokers who are trying to find the right product for them to quit.
New clause 16—Online sale of tobacco products—
“(1) It is an offence to supply a tobacco product through an internet service, whether by way of sale or not.
(2) It is a defence for a person charged with an offence under this section to prove that they took all reasonable steps to avoid the commission of the offence.
(3) A person who commits an offence under this section is liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding level 4 on the standard scale.
(4) For the purposes of this section—
‘internet service’ means a service that is made available by means of the internet, even if it’s made available using a combination of the internet and an electronic communications service as defined in Section 32(2) of the Communications Act 2003.”
This new clause creates an offence of selling tobacco products online.
New clause 17—Tobacco products statutory scheme: consultation—
“(1) The Secretary of State must consult and report on the desirability of making a scheme with one or more of the following purposes—
(a) regulating, for the purposes of improving public health, the prices which may be charged by any producer or importer of tobacco products for the supply of any tobacco products,
(b) limiting the profits which may accrue to any producer or importer in connection with the manufacture or supply of tobacco products,
(c) providing for any producer or importer of tobacco products to pay to the Secretary of State an amount calculated by reference to sales or estimated sales of those products (whether on the basis of net prices, average selling prices or otherwise) to be used for the purposes of reducing smoking prevalence and improving public health.
(2) In this section—
‘importer’ in relation to tobacco products, and “tobacco products” have the meaning as in Part 5 (see section 112),
‘producer’ in relation to tobacco products, is to be construed in accordance with the meaning of ‘production’ in Part 5 (see section 112).”
This new clause would require the Secretary of State for Health and Social Care to consult on proposals for regulating the prices and profits of, and to raise funds from, tobacco manufacturers and importers.
New clause 18—Consultation on licensing regulations—
“(1) Within two months of the passing of this Act, the Secretary of State must publish draft regulations for the licensing of retail sale of tobacco products etc in England.
(2) Following the publication of the draft regulation as set out in subsection (1) the Secretary of State must publish a call for evidence seeking views on the efficacy and suitability of the draft regulations and invite the House of Commons Business and Trade Committee to scrutinise the draft regulations.
(3) After six months of the passing of this Act, the Secretary of State must lay before both Houses of Parliament a report setting out the Government’s formal response to evidence submitted in response to the call for evidence required by subsection (2) and any recommendations of the House of Commons Business and Trade Committee.
(4) The Secretary of State may not make an order under section 168(4) bringing sections 16 to 18 and Schedules 1 and 2 into force until the report specified in subsection (3) has been laid before both Houses of Parliament.”
This new clause would require the Secretary of State to publish draft regulations for the licensing of retail sale of tobacco products etc in England and ensure they receive parliamentary scrutiny.
New clause 19—Reports on illegal sale of tobacco and vaping products—
“(1) The Secretary of State must—
(a) prepare an annual report on the scale of the illegal sale and availability of tobacco and vaping products in the United Kingdom; and
(b) lay a copy of each report before both Houses of Parliament.
(2) Each report must provide details in the United Kingdom of—
(a) the estimated amount and value of illegal, counterfeit and contraband cigarettes and other tobacco products available for sale;
(b) the estimated amount and value of illegal or non-compliant vapes available for sale;
(c) the action taken to tackle the illicit trade of tobacco, tobacco products, vaping devices and vaping products; and
(d) an assessment of the impact of the illicit trade of tobacco, vapes and nicotine products on public health and safety.
(3) The first report must be laid within the period of 12 months of the passing of this Act.
(4) Each subsequent report must be laid annually beginning with the day on which the previous report was laid.”
This new clause would require that the Government produce annual reports on the rate of sale and availability of illegal tobacco and vaping products and their impact on public health and safety.
New clause 20—Age verification requirement for online sales of vaping devices and products—
“(1) A person commits an offence if the person—
(a) continues to operate an online vaping product business, and
(b) fails to operate an age verification policy in respect of online sales of vaping products and devices.
(2) An ‘age verification policy’ is a policy that steps are to be taken to establish and ensure the age of a person attempting to buy a vaping product (the ‘customer’) is not under 18 years of age.
(3) The appropriate national authority may by regulations amend the age specified in subsection (2).
(4) The appropriate national authority may publish guidance on matters relating to age verification policies, including, in particular, guidance about—
(a) steps that should be taken to establish a customer’s age,
(b) documents that may be used as evidence of a customer’s age,
(c) training that should be undertaken by the person selling vaping products,
(d) the form and content of notices that should be displayed on websites; and
(e) the form and content of records that should be maintained in relation to an age verification policy.
(5) A person guilty of an offence under subsection (1) is liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding level 2 on the standard scale.
(6) Regulations under subsection (3) are subject to the affirmative resolution procedure.
(7) In this section—
‘the appropriate national authority’ means—
(a) in relation to England, the Secretary of State, and
(b) in relation to Wales, the Welsh Ministers,
‘online vaping product business’ means a business involving the sale of vaping products by retail online.”
This new clause introduces a requirement on online vaping product businesses to operate an age verification policy covering steps to be taken to establish the age of persons attempting to buy vaping products online. It reflects provisions in place in Scotland.
New clause 21—Prohibition on manufacture and retail of high-capacity count vaping devices—
“(1) The Secretary of State must produce regulations relating to the design, manufacture and sale of vaping devices and products that ensure—
(a) Vaping devices must not be designed or manufactured in a way that allows refill containers, modular attachments, or third-party modifications that increase e-liquid capacity beyond the limit of 2ml per tank or pod, which includes, but is not limited to detachable extensions, multi-pod configurations, and external refill reservoirs.
(b) Any vaping device must contain a fixed, non-modifiable single-use tank or pod with a maximum capacity of 2ml.
(c) Refill e-liquid containers must be limited to a maximum of 10ml per bottle and must not be sold in forms that enable direct integration with a vaping device as an extended tank or automated refill mechanism.
(d) No manufacturer or retailer shall promote, sell, or advertise modification kits, refill systems, or accessory attachments designed to contravene the Tobacco and Related Products Regulations 2016 restrictions on vaping device capacity.
(2) A person commits an offence if they—
(a) Manufacture, import, distribute, or sell a vaping device or accessory that does not comply with the regulatory requirements set out in subsection (1).
(b) Advertise, market, or sell components that facilitate increasing a device’s effective e-liquid capacity beyond the legal limit.
(3) A person who is guilty of an offence under subsection (2)(a) shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine of £20,000 per violation or a ban on further sales within the UK market.
(4) A person who is guilty of an offence under subsection (2)(b) shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine of £10,000 per violation and may be subject to further regulatory action, including product recall or withdrawal from sale.”
This new clause would seek the introduction of regulations and new offences to prohibit the manufacture, design and retail sale of high-capacity count vaping devices.
Amendment 103, page 1, line 4, leave out clause 1.
This amendment removes the generational ban on selling tobacco products to people born on or after 1 January 2009.
Amendment 4, in clause 1, page 1, line 5, leave out
“born on or after 1 January 2009”
and insert
“under the age of 21”.
This amendment makes it an offence to sell tobacco products, herbal smoking products and cigarette papers to a person under the age of 21, rather than to people born on or after 1 January 2009.
Amendment 38, page 1, line 7, leave out “a tobacco product” and insert
“cigarettes or hand rolling tobacco within the meaning of the Standardised Packaging of Tobacco Products Regulations 2015 (S.I. 2015/829)”.
Government amendment 47.
Amendment 5, in clause 1, page 1, line 13, leave out
“shown that document was before 1 January 2009”
and insert
“showed that the purchaser was not under the age of 21”.
This amendment is linked to Amendment 4.
Government amendments 48 and 49.
Amendment 104, page 2, line 10, leave out clause 2.
This amendment is linked to Amendment 103.
Amendment 6, in clause 2, page 2, line 11, leave out “18” and insert “21”.
This amendment makes it an offence to purchase tobacco products, herbal smoking products and cigarette papers on behalf of a person under the age of 25, rather than a person born on or after 1 January 2009.
Amendment 7, page 2, line 12, leave out
“born on or after 1 January 2009”
and insert
“under the age of 21”.
This amendment is linked to Amendment 6.
Amendment 39, page 2, line 13, leave out “a tobacco product” and insert
“cigarettes or hand rolling tobacco within the meaning of the Standardised Packaging of Tobacco Products Regulations 2015 (S.I. 2015/829)”.
This amendment is linked to Amendment 38.
Amendment 8, page 2, line 18, leave out
“born on or after 1 January 2009”
and insert
“under the age of 21”.
This amendment is linked to Amendment 6.
Government amendment 50.
Amendment 105, page 3, line 3, leave out clause 5.
This amendment is linked to Amendment 103.
Amendment 9, in clause 5, page 3, line 8, leave out
“born on or after 1 January 2009”
and insert
“under the age of 21”.
This amendment is linked to Amendment 4.
Amendment 106, page 3, line 25, leave out clause 6.
This amendment is linked to Amendment 103.
Amendment 10, in clause 6, page 3, line 30, leave out
“born on or after 1 January 2009”
and insert
“under the age of 21”.
This amendment is linked to Amendment 4.
Amendment 11, page 3, line 32, leave out
“a anwyd ar neu ar ôl 1 Ionawr 2009”
and insert “dan 21 oed”.
This amendment is linked to Amendment 4.
Government amendments 51 to 59.
Amendment 1, in clause 38, page 20, line 19, leave out from “be” to the end of line and insert
“be allocated by the relevant Local Authority to public health projects.”
This amendment would direct funds from Fixed Penalty Notice fines to public health initiatives as determined by Local Authorities.
Amendment 2, page 20, line 20, leave out from “before” to the second “the” and insert
“such sums are allocated by the relevant Local Authorities”.
This amendment is consequential upon Amendment 1.
Government amendments 60 to 63.
Amendment 107, page 25, line 26, leave out clause 50.
This amendment is linked to Amendment 103.
Amendment 40, in clause 50, page 25, line 30, after “subsection (1)” insert—
“(i) for ‘a tobacco product’ substitute ‘cigarettes or hand rolling tobacco within the meaning of the Standardised Packaging of Tobacco Products Regulations 2015 (S.I. 2015/829)’, and”.
This amendment exempts tobacco products other than cigarettes and hand rolling tobacco from the offence of selling tobacco products to a person born on or after 1 January 2009.
Amendment 12, page 25, line 30, leave out “‘born on or after 1 January 2009’” and insert “‘under the age of 21’”.
This amendment is linked to Amendment 4.
Amendment 13, page 25, line 33, leave out
“‘born on or after 1 January 2009 (“the customer) to have been born before that date”’”
and insert
“‘under the age of 21 (“the customer”) to be aged 21 or over’”.
This amendment is linked to Amendment 4.
Amendment 14, page 25, line 37, leave out
“born on or after 1 January 2009”
and insert “under 21”.
This amendment is linked to Amendment 4.
Amendment 15, page 26, line 1, leave out subsection (3).
This amendment is linked to Amendment 4.
Amendment 41, page 26, line 6, leave out “a tobacco product” and insert
“cigarettes or hand rolling tobacco within the meaning of the Standardised Packaging of Tobacco Products Regulations 2015 (S.I. 2015/829)”.
This amendment is linked to Amendment 40.
Amendment 42, page 26, line 28, after “subsection (1)” insert—
“(i) for “a tobacco product” substitute “cigarettes or hand rolling tobacco within the meaning of the Standardised Packaging of Tobacco Products Regulations 2015 (S.I. 2015/829)”, and”.
This amendment is linked to Amendment 40.
Amendment 16, page 26, line 28, leave out
“‘born on or after 1 January 2009’”
and insert
“‘under the age of 21’”.
This amendment is linked to Amendment 4.
Amendment 17, page 26, line 30, leave out
“‘born on or after 1 January 2009’”
and insert “‘under 21’”.
This amendment is linked to Amendment 4.
Amendment 18, page 26, line 33, leave out
“‘born on or after 1 January 2009’”
and insert
“‘under the age of 21’”.
This amendment is linked to Amendment 4.
Government amendment 64.
Amendment 108, page 35, line 24, leave out clause 68.
This amendment is linked to Amendment 103.
Amendment 19, page 35, line 28, leave out
“born on or after 1 January 2009”
and insert
“under the age of 21”.
This amendment is linked to Amendment 4.
Amendment 43, page 35, line 30, leave out “a tobacco product” and insert
“cigarettes or hand rolling tobacco within the meaning of the Standardised Packaging of Tobacco Products Regulations 2015 (S.I. 2015/829)”.
This amendment exempts tobacco products other than cigarettes and hand rolling tobacco from the offence of selling tobacco products to a person born on or after 1 January 2009.
Government amendment 65.
Amendment 20, page 35, line 37, leave out
“shown on that document was before 1 January 2009”
and insert
“showed that the purchaser was not under the age of 21”.
This amendment is linked to Amendment 4.
Government amendments 66 and 67.
Amendment 109, page 36, line 13, leave out clause 69.
This amendment is linked to Amendment 103.
Amendment 21, page 36, line 16, leave out
“born on or after 1 January 2009”
and insert
“under the age of 21”.
This amendment is linked to Amendment 6.
Amendment 22, page 36, line 18, leave out “18” and insert “21”.
This amendment is linked to Amendment 6.
Amendment 23, page 36, line 19, leave out
“born on or after 1 January 2009”
and insert
“under the age of 21”.
This amendment is linked to Amendment 6.
Amendment 44, page 36, line 21, leave out “a tobacco product” and insert
“cigarettes or hand rolling tobacco within the meaning of the Standardised Packaging of Tobacco Products Regulations 2015 (S.I. 2015/829)”.
This amendment is linked to Amendment 43.
Amendment 24, page 36, line 26, leave out
“born on or after 1 January 2009”
and insert
“under the age of 21”.
This amendment is linked to Amendment 6.
Government amendment 68.
Amendment 110, page 37, line 19, leave out clause 72.
This amendment is linked to Amendment 103.
Amendment 25, in clause 72, page 37, line 27, leave out
“born on or after 1 January 2009”
and insert
“under the age of 21”.
This amendment is linked to Amendment 4.
Government amendments 69 to 79.
Amendment 86, in clause 90, page 50, line 32, at end insert—
“(da) cigarette filters;”.
This amendment enables the Secretary of State to make provisions about the retail packaging of cigarette filters and the composition of individual products contained in an individual pack of products outlined in Clause 90(1).
Amendment 87, page 51, line 13, at end insert—
“(ja) the composition of individual products contained in an individual pack;”.
This amendment enables the Secretary of State to make provisions about the retail packaging of cigarette filters and the composition of individual products contained in an individual pack of products outlined in Clause 90(1).
Amendment 36, page 51, line 30, delete “shape” and insert “design, shape or interoperability”.
This amendment empowers ministers to regulate the design and interoperability of products in order to prohibit the sale of very high-puff count vaping devices.
Amendment 37, in clause 92, page 52, line 3, after “flavour” insert “descriptors”.
This amendment would give the Secretary of State powers to make provisions about the flavour descriptors of relevant products.
Amendment 88, in clause 110, page 60, line 35, leave out from “consult” to end of line 36 and insert
“any persons or bodies as appear to him or her representative of the interests concerned.”
This amendment would ensure that the Secretary of State has to consult all relevant parties before making regulations, rather than just those that they deem appropriate.
Government amendment 80.
Amendment 90, in clause 114, page 63, line 16, after “product,” insert
“except for the public health purpose of promoting vaping as a cessation tool for existing tobacco smokers,”.
This amendment would allow vapes to be promoted as a quit-aid/public health measure.
Amendment 46, in clause 120, page 68, line 22, at end insert—
“(ca) it is, when in relation to the advertising of vaping products or nicotine products, in a location in which it would be reasonable to expect that everyone present is aged 18 or over.”
This amendment would allow for the advertising of vaping or nicotine products within locations where it is reasonable to expect that everyone present is over 18.
Amendment 91, in clause 125, page 73, line 2, at end insert—
“(4) No offence is committed under this Part if—
(a) it is for the purposes of an interaction between a representative for the product and a member of the public, and
(b) the representative for the product has taken reasonable measures to ensure that the member of the public is aged over 18 and is an existing tobacco or nicotine user.”
This amendment will allow for vapes and nicotine products to be promoted through one-to-one interaction between individuals representing the product and adults who are already existing smokers or nicotine users.
Amendment 85, in clause 136, page 77, line 8, leave out from “smoke-free” to end of line 15 and insert
“a place in England that is—
(a) an NHS property or hospital building,
(b) a children’s playground, or
(c) a nursery, school, college or higher education premises.”
This amendment restricts the Secretary of State to only being able to designate open or unenclosed spaces outside a hospital, children’s playground, nursery, school, college or higher education premises as smoke-free areas.
Amendment 84, page 77, line 9, leave out from “place” to the end of line 12 and insert
“or description of place in England that is not smoke-free under section 2.
(1A) The place, or places falling within the description, need not be enclosed or substantially enclosed.
(1B) The Secretary of State may designate a place or description of place under this section only if they are advised by the Department for Health and Social Care's Chief Scientific Adviser that there is a significant risk that, without a designation, persons present there would be exposed to significant quantities of smoke or, if said place is—
(a) an NHS property or hospital building,
(b) a children’s playground, or
(c) a nursery, school, college or higher education premises.”
This amendment would restrict the Secretary of State to only being able to designate open or unenclosed spaces outside a hospital, children’s playground, nursery, school, college or higher education premises, or places with significant risk of second-hand smoke as smoke-free areas.
Amendment 92, page 77, line 12, at end insert—
“(1A) The Secretary of State may designate a place or description of place under this section only if, in the Secretary of State’s opinion, there is a significant risk that, without a designation, persons present there would be exposed to significant quantities of smoke.”
This amendment provides that regulations to designate places as smoke-free may only be made if the Secretary of State is satisfied that they are necessary to avoid persons being exposed to significant quantities of smoke.
Amendment 82, in clause 137, page 78, leave out lines 5 to 12.
This amendment removes the proposed power for the Secretary of State to create defences for performances. This protects the health of actors in the workplace and prevents the promotion of smoking through artistic means.
Amendment 83, page 78, leave out lines 15 to 21.
This amendment removes the proposed power for the Secretary of State to create defences for performances. This protects the health of actors in the workplace and prevents the promotion of smoking through artistic means.
Amendment 93, in clause 139, page 79, line 13, at end insert—
“(1A) The Secretary of State may designate a place or description of place under this section only if, in the Secretary of State’s opinion, there is a significant risk that, without a designation, the use of vapes may have adverse effects on the health of persons present there who are not using vapes.”
This amendment provides that regulations to designate places as vape-free may only be made if the Secretary of State is satisfied that they are necessary to avoid persons present there being exposed to adverse health effects.
Amendment 94, in clause 140, page 82, line 24, at end insert—
“(1A) The Secretary of State may designate a place or description of place under this section only if, in the Secretary of State’s opinion, there is a significant risk that, without a designation, the use of heated tobacco devices may have adverse effects on the health of persons present there who are not using heated tobacco devices.”
This amendment provides that regulations to designate places as heated tobacco-free may only be made if the Secretary of State is satisfied that they are necessary to avoid persons present there being exposed to adverse health effects.
Amendment 95, in clause 142, page 85, line 33, at end insert—
“(2A) Premises may be prescribed as no-smoking premises only if in the Scottish Ministers’ opinion there is a significant risk that, without prescribing them, persons present there would be exposed to significant quantities of smoke.”
This amendment provides that regulations to prescribe premises as smoke-free may only be made if the Scottish Ministers are satisfied that they are necessary to avoid persons being exposed to significant quantities of smoke.
Amendment 96, in clause 144, page 90, line 4, at end insert—
“(2A) Premises may be prescribed as vape-free premises only if in the Scottish Ministers’ opinion there is a significant risk that, without prescribing them, the use of vapes may have adverse effects on the health of persons present there who are not using vapes.”
This amendment provides that regulations to prescribe premises as vape-free may only be made if the Scottish Ministers are satisfied that they are necessary to avoid persons present there being exposed to a significant risk of adverse health effects.
Amendment 97, in clause 145, page 92, line 22, at end insert—
“(2A) Premises may be prescribed as heated tobacco-free premises only if in the Scottish Ministers’ opinion there is a significant risk that, without prescribing them, the use of heated tobacco devices may have adverse effects on the health of persons present there who are not using heated tobacco devices.”
This amendment provides that regulations to prescribe premises as heated tobacco-free may only be made if the Scottish Ministers are satisfied that they are necessary to avoid persons present there being exposed to a significant risk of adverse health effects.
Amendment 98, in clause 150, page 98, line 40, at end insert—
“(2A) The regulations may designate a place or vehicle as vape-free only if the Welsh Ministers are satisfied that doing so is likely to contribute towards the promotion of public health.”
This amendment provides that regulations to designate a place or vehicle as vape-free may only be made if the Welsh Ministers are satisfied that this is likely to contribute towards the promotion of public health.
Amendment 99, in clause 151, page 105, line 22, at end insert—
“(2A) The regulations may designate a place or vehicle as heated tobacco-free only if the Welsh Ministers are satisfied that doing so is likely to contribute towards the promotion of public health.”
This amendment provides that regulations to designate a place or vehicle as heated tobacco-free may only be made if the Welsh Ministers are satisfied that this is likely to contribute towards the promotion of the health of the people of Wales.
Amendment 100, in clause 153, page 108, line 25, at end insert—
“(1A) The Department may designate a place or description of place under this Article only if satisfied that, without the designation, persons present there would be likely to be exposed to significant quantities of smoke.”
This amendment provides that regulations to designate places as smoke-free may only be made if the Northern Ireland Department is satisfied that they are necessary to avoid persons being exposed to significant quantities of smoke.
Amendment 101, in clause 155, page 110, line 6, at end insert—
“(1A) The Department may designate a place or vehicle under this Article only if the Department is satisfied there is a significant risk that, without a designation, the use of vapes may have adverse effects on the health of persons present there who are not using vapes.”
This amendment provides that regulations to designate places as vape-free may only be made if the Northern Ireland Department is satisfied that they are necessary to avoid persons present there being exposed to adverse health effects.
Amendment 102, in clause 156, page 113, line 15, at end insert—
“(1A) The Department may designate a place or vehicle under this Article only if the Department is satisfied there is a significant risk that, without a designation, the use of heated tobacco devices may have adverse effects on the health of persons present there who are not using heated tobacco devices.”
This amendment provides that regulations to designate places as heated tobacco-free may only be made if the Northern Ireland Department is satisfied that they are necessary to avoid persons present there being exposed to adverse health effects.
Amendment 89, in clause 168, page 120, line 39, leave out from “force” to end of line 41 and insert
“on such a date as the Secretary of State may by regulation appoint following the consultation on licensing regulations (see section (Consultation on licensing regulations)).”
See explanatory statement for NC18.
Government amendment 81.
Amendment 26, in schedule 5, page 132, line 2, leave out
“a anwyd ar neu ar ôl 1 Ionawr 2009”
and insert “dan 21 oed”.
This amendment is linked to Amendment 4.
Amendment 27, page 132, line 7, leave out
“a anwyd ar neu ar ôl 1 Ionawr 2009”
and insert “dan 21 oed (“B”)”.
This amendment is linked to Amendment 4.
Amendment 28, page 132, line 12, leave out
“a anwyd ar neu ar ôl 1 Ionawr 2009”
and insert “dan 21 oed”.
This amendment is linked to Amendment 4.
Amendment 29, page 132, line 38, leave out
“wedi cael ei eni cyn 1 Ionawr 2009”
and insert
“yn 21 oed neu drosodd”.
This amendment is linked to Amendment 4.
Amendment 30, page 133, line 2, leave out
“wedi cael ei eni ar neu ar ôl 1 Ionawr 2009”
and insert “dan 21 oed”.
This amendment is linked to Amendment 4.
Amendment 111, page 133, line 15, leave out paragraph 5.
This amendment is linked to Amendment 103.
Amendment 31, page 133, line 16, leave out
“born on or after 1 January 2009”
and insert
“under the age of 21”.
This amendment is linked to Amendment 4.
Amendment 32, page 133, line 21, leave out
“born on or after 1 January 2009”
and insert
“under the age of 21”.
This amendment is linked to Amendment 4.
Amendment 33, page 133, line 26, leave out
“born on or after 1 January 2009”
and insert
“under the age of 21”.
This amendment is linked to Amendment 4.
Amendment 45, page 133, line 37, at end insert—
“(1A) In this section, “tobacco products” means cigarettes or hand rolling tobacco within the meaning of the Standardised Packaging of Tobacco Products Regulations 2015 (S.I. 2015/829).”
This amendment is linked to Amendment 38.
Amendment 34, page 134, line 9, leave out
“born on or after 1 January 2009”
and insert
“under the age of 21”.
This amendment is linked to Amendment 4.
Amendment 35, page 134, line 14, leave out
“born on or after 1 January 2009”
and insert
“under the age of 21”.
This amendment is linked to Amendment 4.
Ashley Dalton
I would like to start by thanking all right hon. and hon. Members for their invaluable contributions during the passage of the Bill to date, and in particular, members of the Public Bill Committee for providing insight, scrutiny and debate. I am honoured to have taken on responsibility for this Bill. It is a watershed piece of legislation and the most significant public health intervention since the ban on smoking in public places in 2007. It will establish a smokefree generation by gradually ending the sale of tobacco products across the UK so that a child turning 16 this year will never be able to be legally sold tobacco, saving countless lives in the process. It will strengthen existing powers to reduce the harms of second-hand smoke in public spaces. In keeping with our manifesto commitment to the British people, it will outlaw the manipulative promotion of vapes to children to protect the next generation from becoming hooked on nicotine. Finally, it will implement robust measures to strengthen enforcement activity.
I do not need to tell anyone in this Chamber that tobacco kills—we all know that. What hon. Members may not know is just how much it kills, the rate at which it kills, and the devastation it causes for individuals, families and communities across the country. Let me remind hon. Members that tobacco kills more people than any other preventable cause of death. Around 80,000 people in the UK lose their lives to tobacco every year. It robs an average of 10 years off the life expectancy of smokers. It substantially increases the risk of many major health conditions throughout people’s lives, such as stroke, diabetes, heart disease, stillbirth, dementia and asthma. This daily tragedy continues unabated, with someone being admitted to hospital because of smoking almost every minute, day in, day out, with no end in sight.
Tobacco harms are not felt equally either. Our most disadvantaged communities suffer most, with 230,000 households living in smoking-induced poverty. In Blackpool, 17.5% of pregnant women still smoke at the time of delivery compared with 2.8% in Kensington and Chelsea. Over a quarter of people with a long-term mental health condition smoke.
Beyond the immeasurable cost to lives in the UK, the staggering economic impact of tobacco on our NHS cannot be ignored. The treatment of smoking-related diseases consumes approximately £3 billion a year of vital NHS and social care resources. The cost of smoking to our economy is even greater: £18 billion is lost in productivity every year, far outweighing the tax receipts it brings in of around £9 billion. The Bill is a vital step to break the devastating cycle of tobacco addiction and safeguard future generations from a lifetime of ill health.
But the world moves forward, and we cannot ignore the alarming rise of youth vaping. While vaping is less harmful than smoking and can be an effective quit aid for adult smokers, children should never vape. However, in the past five years, youth vaping has more than doubled. One in four 11 to 15-year-olds tried vaping in 2023, and that is no accident. It is in part due to the deliberate branding and advertisement of vapes to our children, with brightly coloured packaging and enticing sweet-like flavours—a calculated strategy to hook young people on nicotine. We cannot afford to wait to act.
I turn to the Government amendments, which seek to strengthen the Bill and ensure greater clarity. As we create the first smokefree generation and strengthen age restrictions on vapes and nicotine products, we want to support retailers in taking appropriate steps to ensure they do not sell to customers under the age of sale. New clause 11 and Government amendments 47 to 49, 51 to 53, 61, 63, 65 to 67, 69 to 71, 75, 77, 79 and 81 are a package of amendments and consequential amendments to the Bill. They seek to remove potential ambiguity for retailers regarding the use of digital identity for verifying the age of prospective customers when selling tobacco, vaping and nicotine products.
In Committee, Members raised concerns that the list of identity documents to satisfy the defence for a person charged with selling products to someone under the age of sale was limited, and queried the inclusion of other forms of physical and digital identity. These amendments remove the lists of physical ID from the Bill and instead provide powers for the Secretary of State and the Department of Health in Northern Ireland to specify in regulations the steps that may be taken to verify a customer’s age to meet the requirements for the defence. This revised approach better future-proofs the defence against developments in identification processes and provides the potential to recognise digital ID, as well as physical ID, in the context of the defence, supporting the widespread use of digital ID.
The amendments provide the opportunity for effective interaction with part 2 of the Data (Use and Access) Bill that is currently going through Parliament, which includes provisions relating to digital verification services. Digital verification services provide an opportunity to securely verify age for in-person and online sales. We will continue to work closely with the Department for Science, Innovation and Technology and other Departments when developing the regulations.
New clause 11 provides a similar power for Scottish Ministers to prescribe in regulations the steps that should be taken to establish a customer’s age as a defence to an age of sale offence. That will enable Scottish Ministers to respond to changes in technology and consumer behaviours, which may move away from the presentation of a physical document.
The last Labour Government took bold action to prohibit displays of tobacco products to protect children and young people from being enticed into addiction and to create a more supportive environment for adults seeking to quit. The Bill goes further and gives powers to limit the display of a wider range of products, including herbal smoking products, cigarette papers, vapes and nicotine products. Government amendments 56, 57, 60, 62, 74, 76, 78 and 80 will alter the powers in the Bill for England, Wales and Northern Ireland that regulate displays of products and their prices, so that they also cover tobacco-related devices. As was discussed in Committee, pipes, heated tobacco devices and bongs are currently displayed in shops and can have the effect of promoting tobacco usage. The amendments will ensure that we can make regulations to stop products that facilitate the consumption of tobacco being openly displayed by retailers.
The Bill bans the sale of vapes, nicotine products and cigarette papers from vending machines in England, Wales and Northern Ireland and restates the existing ban on tobacco vending machines. We know that vending machines are used to bypass age of sale restrictions and to undertake proxy purchases on behalf of people under the age of sale. Government amendments 50, 54, 55, 64, 68, 72 and 73 are clarifying amendments that make the scope of the prohibition on vending machines absolutely clear, as was discussed in Committee. The Government’s position is that the Protection from Tobacco (Sales from Vending Machines) (England) Regulations 2010 already apply where a customer has a coupon, receipt or token purchased elsewhere that can be redeemed at a machine. We are amending the clauses so that all machines that dispense products in connection with a sale are clearly captured by the ban.
The Bill strengthens the enforcement regime to support law-abiding retailers while taking action against those who break the rules. Along with introducing new fixed penalty notices and new powers to create a licensing system, the Bill re-enacts provisions on restricted premises orders and restricted sale orders. Those are existing measures that local authority trading standards in England and Wales can use when dealing with a retailer that persistently breaches restrictions. That ensures there is a range of tools in the enforcement armoury, so that trading standards officers can act quickly and effectively against rogue retailers.
Government amendments 58 and 59 clarify a point raised in Committee by removing a duplicative and unnecessary provision that would prevent a business or individual from operating a vending machine for the sale of tobacco, vaping or nicotine products following the issuing of a restricted premises order or a restricted sale order. Given that the Bill already prohibits the use of vending machines for tobacco, vaping or nicotine products, there is no need for restricted premises orders and restricted sale orders to expressly prohibit the use of vending machines. Together, the Government amendments will improve the implementation and enforceability of measures in the Bill to ensure the most effective protection for the public, and I commend them to the House.
Turning to the other amendments in the group, I thank hon. Members for their scrutiny of the Bill so far. When I wind up, I will try to cover the key themes that are touched on. On the amendment that seeks to undermine the smokefree generation, I am sure we will hear arguments from some hon. Members who have been listening to the tobacco industry’s arguments and myths about how people should be free to make their own choices. I would say to them that smoking kills two thirds of its users. Three quarters of people wish they had never started smoking, and the majority want to quit—that is not freedom of choice. The tobacco industry took away that choice with addiction, usually at a young age.
On smokefree places, we have been clear: in England, we intend to consult on extending smokefree outdoor places to outside schools, children’s playgrounds and hospitals, but not to outdoor hospitality settings at this time. No smoker wants to harm people, but with second-hand smoke, they do. If people can smell smoke, they are inhaling it. This is particularly important for children, pregnant women and people with pre-existing health conditions such as asthma or heart disease. The only way to stop this harm is to stop people smoking around others. While I understand hon. Members’ proposals to list specific places in the Bill or to add additional limits to the use of the powers, it is right that we consult on the detail before making regulations and have the necessary powers to protect children and vulnerable people from the harms of second-hand smoking.
I am grateful to the co-chairs of the all-party parliamentary group on smoking and health, my hon. Friend the Member for City of Durham (Mary Kelly Foy) and the hon. Member for Harrow East (Bob Blackman), for their long-standing support for the Bill. Through their amendments, they highlight the importance of retaining a focus on support for current smokers. That is why we are investing an extra £70 million for local stop smoking services this year and working to ensure that all NHS hospitals offer opt-out smoking cessation services into routine care. I hope they will be pleased that we have been able to confirm the extension of the swap to stop scheme for the coming year, with up to £90 million of funding to provide free vape starter kits for smokers to use as quit aids.
On the group of amendments relating to vape advertising, we realise that products being deliberately marketed at children is unacceptable, which is why we have included a commitment to stop vapes being branded and advertised to children. The Government are also investing £10 million of new funding for the coming year for National Trading Standards to tackle underage illicit tobacco and vapes and to boost the trading standards workforce by recruiting 80 new apprentices, providing additional boots on the ground.
Mr Joshua Reynolds (Maidenhead) (LD)
Trading standards are really important and obviously, therefore, so are fixed penalty notices, so will the Minister support amendment 1, which would mean that any fixed penalty notice sums will be retained by local authorities to spend on public health, thus saving the NHS money, as she mentioned earlier?
Ashley Dalton
As the hon. Member will know, there are already measures in the Bill that allow some of the fines to be retained—they can certainly be retained to make it cost-neutral for local authorities—but I am sure we will explore that issue later on.
The Bill contains regulation-making powers on a range of aspects of product requirements that already allow us to do many things that hon. Members seek to achieve, but I look forward to listening to the contributions to today’s debate on the wider list of amendments and to responding to the points that are made.
Mrs Brackenridge
I am pleased to say that that will end with the Bill, which will ban vape advertising aimed at children, outlaw sales from vending machines and crack down on packaging designed to attract young eyes. Firm action to protect the health of children includes a £10 million boost for trading standards to fund more enforcement officers.
I welcome the recent announcement of the £62 million groundbreaking research to investigate the long-term health effects of vaping by tracking 100,000 young people aged eight to 18 over a decade. Unless we prevent illness, our NHS will continue to be overwhelmed, and billions of pounds will be spent addressing a problem that could have been curbed in advance. I call on the House to pass the Bill in order to protect children in Wolverhampton East and across the country.
Ashley Dalton
Let me begin by thanking all hon. and right hon. Members for their contributions. I will try and touch on the many amendments discussed and the key questions raised.
At the heart of the Bill is the establishment of the smokefree generation by gradually ending the sale of tobacco products across the UK. Amendments 4 to 35 tabled by the right hon. Member for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson), amendments 38 to 45 tabled by the hon. Member for Romford (Andrew Rosindell), amendments 103 to 111 tabled by the hon. Member for Clacton (Nigel Farage) and new clause 12 tabled by the right hon. Member for South Holland and The Deepings (Sir John Hayes) would remove that policy or water it down. There is no liberty or choice in addiction, however, and that is why the Government are committed to creating the world’s first smokefree generation. We have the public’s backing, with 71% of adults supporting the goal of a smokefree Britain in a YouGov poll carried out in November 2023. Raising the age of sale to 21 will not meet our ambition to make the UK smokefree.
Wera Hobhouse
I hear what the Minister is saying, but the Metropolitan police and other forces tell us that it is incredibly difficult. The Bill gives us an extra opportunity to protect young children from a terrible pathway into addiction and crime. Is it not the task of this Government to stop that?
Ashley Dalton
The entire Bill is about preventing addiction among our young people and preventing their move into crime. These things are already illegal and the Government believe that existing legislation will allow for them to be dealt with.
On cigarette filters, I understand hon. Members’ concerns about tobacco litter, but new clause 2, tabled by the hon. Member for Gosport (Dame Caroline Dinenage), could lead to greenwashing, improving the reputation of tobacco manufacturers while not necessarily improving environmental outcomes.
Dame Caroline Dinenage
That is an incredibly lazy argument. We do not care about greenwashing; greenwashing is just semantics. We care about cleaning up our beaches, cleaning up our streets and reducing the cost to local councils of cleaning up litter. It is ridiculous if the Government are going to be swayed by one lobby or another and not do the thing that is common sense and much better for our environment.
Ashley Dalton
I thank the hon. Member for her intervention. If I am allowed to finish, that is one of the issues and that proposal may not necessarily improve environmental outcomes. However, we consider that powers are already available to the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs that enable the Government to limit the damage to the environment caused by filters, so the amendments are unnecessary.
Similarly, new clause 14, tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Dartford (Jim Dickson), would prohibit the supply of all cigarette filters or cigarettes containing filters, whether they contain plastic or not. Ultimately we believe that the best way to tackle filters is through the reduction of smoking rates. On bundles of tobacco products, the Bill gives the Government the powers to regulate retail packaging of tobacco products and devices, herbal smoking products and cigarette papers, as well as vaping and nicotine products. In addition, the Bill already gives the Government powers to regulate how products are packaged together in bundles, so amendments 86 and 87, also tabled by my hon. Friend, are not necessary.
Amendments 46, 90 and 91 and new clauses 8 to 10 and 15 would all undermine our promise to the electorate to stop vapes being advertised to children. We have a clear mandate, with 74% of adults in Great Britain supportive of a ban, and we will not create any exemptions that could undermine this. On amendment 90 and new clause 15, let me reassure the shadow Secretary of State and my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle upon Tyne East and Wallsend (Mary Glindon) that the Government are not prohibiting the promotion of vapes in general as a smoking cessation tool.
Let me reassure my hon. Friends the Members for Newcastle upon Tyne East and Wallsend and for Suffolk Coastal (Jenny Riddell-Carpenter) that the Bill already provides the Government with powers to limit the amount of nicotine in a nicotine pouch, to regulate vaping products in such a way that would prohibit the sale of high puff count vaping devices, including setting tank capacity limits for devices where multiple refill tanks are attached, and to ban any other ingredient that may be harmful. The Government believe that these measures are more appropriate for secondary legislation due to the technical details that need to be captured, rather than in primary legislation as new clauses 4 and 21 would require.
On amendment 37, tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle upon Tyne East and Wallsend, we recognise that vape flavours are a really important consideration for adult smokers seeking to quit smoking, but we also know that sweet or fruity flavours are the main flavours that appeal to children and that certain flavours and ingredients can be particularly harmful to health. We have been clear that we will carefully consider our future regulations so that we get the balance right, and this is subject to a statutory duty to consult. Similarly, I reassure my hon. Friend that amendment 88 is unnecessary. We will honour the long-established principles of good consultation when consulting on regulations under part 5 of the Bill, including in relation to who is consulted.
On new clauses 6 and 7, while the Government are committed to protecting children from the risk of harms through addiction, our approach across all products in the Bill is for age to be verified at the point of sale, not at the point of use. Mandating any age-gating technology for vapes would create harsher restrictions on vaping than smoking. That could make vapes less accessible and attractive to adult smokers wishing to quit and use vapes as a smoking cessation tool.
I recognise the concerns of the hon. Member for Harrow East (Bob Blackman) about online sales. However, it would not be proportionate to ban all online sales because that would impact on those retailers seeking to operate within the law.
As was discussed in Committee, going back to the issue of wider enforcement, new clause 18 and amendment 89 do not reflect the complex processes required to develop the licensing scheme in England and Wales. Although I am sympathetic to the shadow Secretary of State’s aims, rushing to publish draft regulations within two months of Royal Assent would risk creating flawed policy.
I pay tribute to colleagues in the Scottish Government, Welsh Government and the Northern Ireland Executive. This UK-wide Bill has been developed in partnership with them, and I thank them for their support. Our manifesto committed to resetting our relationship with the devolved Governments, and this Bill is a great success in demonstrating collaboration across Governments in improving the health of the nation.
Jim Allister
Since the tobacco directive applies to Northern Ireland under the protocol through section 7A of the 2018 Act and applies directly, and the directive forbids the type of proposition in this Bill, would the Minister care to explain to the House how this Bill will be applicable in Northern Ireland as long as the tobacco directive applies?
Ashley Dalton
This Bill has been put together, as I said, with collaboration across all the Governments and bearing in mind all the Government’s legal obligations under the law. All those things have been taken into account, and the Bill is able to be brought forward in that way. Our manifesto committed to delivering the smokefree generation, and we are working across all Governments to ensure that we deliver that, as well as honouring our international obligations. As a result, the Government do not consider new clause 3 tabled by the hon. and learned Member for North Antrim (Jim Allister) to be necessary. That is because we are content that measures drafted in the Bill that apply in relation to Northern Ireland are consistent with our obligations under the Windsor framework, and the proposed new clause would put us in breach of international law. In the drafting of the Bill, as I have stated, we have considered all its domestic and international obligations, and it is for those reasons that the Government cannot support new clause 3.
The Bill will bring about a real change by creating a smokefree generation. As we have discussed, there is no liberty or choice in addiction, and almost all smokers want to quit and two thirds wished they had never started. I started smoking at the age of 16 and decided I would stop when I was 18—I could not stop. I thought, “I know, I’ll stop when I am 21” and then it was 25, then it was when I graduated, and then it was when I had a child. At no point was I able to give up this pernicious addiction. It took a cancer diagnosis to scare me into being able to stop smoking, and I do not wish that on any of our young people.
In conclusion, many of the amendments are unnecessary because the Bill already grants the Government the power to take forward the issue through the more appropriate route of secondary legislation. This is a landmark Bill: the most significant public health intervention in a generation. It strikes the right balance on the interests of public health by being proportionate and not overly burdensome. It allows the Government to bring forward the appropriate primary and secondary legislation to ensure that we can deliver a smokefree generation that protects all our children from the addiction of tobacco, a uniquely harmful substance.
Ashley Dalton
I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time.
Let me start by thanking hon. Members on both sides of the Chamber for their positive and constructive engagement today and more generally as the Bill has progressed through the House. Let me put on record my sincerest thanks to all members of the Public Bill Committee, who scrutinised the Bill extremely thoroughly and brought it to this stage.
The Bill is the next step in a long history of action on tobacco, but as the House is aware, it is not a step that this Labour Government have taken alone. I thank the right hon. Member for Richmond and Northallerton (Rishi Sunak) for his ambition to make a difference to the future of our country by championing the previous Tobacco and Vapes Bill. The Bill that we are discussing today is even stronger in its ambition to tackle smoking and youth vaping, in part thanks to the contributions and debate from MPs from all parties on these most critical of issues.
I thank the Opposition Front Benchers for their engagement with the Bill, particularly the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham (Dr Johnson), who has been a determined campaigner for action on youth vaping for a number of years. I also thank my officials in the Department for Health and Social Care and the devolved Governments, the Office of the Parliamentary Counsel, the Government Legal Department and the Clerks, whose tireless work and support on the Bill have enabled the development of this extraordinary legislation.
When this Government took office, we promised to create a smokefree generation. Today we are delivering on that promise. By creating a smokefree UK, we are investing in a healthier society for all. The Bill will tackle the concerning rise in youth vaping and reduce the immense burden that tobacco-related illnesses place on our society and our NHS. I consider it a great privilege to have overseen these last parts of scrutiny of the Bill, and I urge all right hon. and hon. Members to support it to proceed to the other place.
Wednesday 23rd April 2025
(1 year, 3 months ago)
Lords ChamberTobacco and Vapes Act 2026 Read Hansard Text Watch Debate Amendment Paper: Consideration of Bill Amendments as at 26 March 2025 - large print - (26 Mar 2025)
This text is a record of ministerial contributions to a debate held as part of the Tobacco and Vapes Act 2026 passage through Parliament.
In 1993, the House of Lords Pepper vs. Hart decision provided that statements made by Government Ministers may be taken as illustrative of legislative intent as to the interpretation of law.
This extract highlights statements made by Government Ministers along with contextual remarks by other members. The full debate can be read here
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Baroness Merron) (Lab)
My Lords, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time, and it is an honour to do so.
The evidence, despite perhaps some lingering myths and misperceptions, remains stark and compelling: smoking remains unequivocally the number one preventable cause of death, disability and ill health in our nation. Progress has been made, but this is not a problem of the past. Smoking continues to cast a long shadow over our society, remaining a significant public health challenge with persistent rates of prevalence. Every year we witness the loss of approximately 80,000 lives in the UK directly attributed to smoking.
The impact of smoking reverberates throughout lifetimes, increasing the risk of a whole range of conditions from stillbirth through to significantly higher rates of dementia, stroke, heart attacks, lung diseases and many cancers. Smoking also results in a significant loss of productivity in the wider economy and places a considerable burden on our healthcare system. In total it is estimated to cost society approximately £21.3 billion annually.
To correct this course, this Bill will create a smoke-free generation, making it an offence to sell tobacco products to anyone born on or after 1 January 2009, meaning those who turn 16 this year, and younger, will never legally be sold tobacco in the UK. This will gradually end the sale of tobacco products across the country, protecting future generations from the well-documented and evidenced harms of smoking.
In turning our attention to vaping, we face a nuanced challenge. Vapes are less harmful than smoking and absolutely have a strong role to play as a cessation aid for adult smokers seeking to quit. In fact, clients of stop smoking services who have used a vape to quit have had the highest success rate of any group. Nevertheless, a concerning increase in youth uptake should not be ignored. In 2023, one in four children aged 11 to 15 tried vaping, often drawn in through appealing sweet-like flavours and colourful packaging.
In response to this challenge, the Bill includes measures which address the rise in youth vaping and other nicotine products. We will ban advertising and sponsorship, and implement regulations concerning the flavours, descriptions, ingredients, packaging and point-of-sale displays of these products. The intention here is clear. We will ensure that the marketing of vapes can no longer target minors. However, it is imperative that the Bill strikes a necessary balance, ensuring that vapes remain an accessible option for adult smokers looking to transition away from dependence on tobacco, while clamping down on youth vaping.
The public understand the importance of this Bill and what it aims to achieve. Some 69% support a smoke-free generation policy, while 82% of adults support banning names of sweets, cartoons and bright colours on vape packaging, and 81% support banning the advertising and promotion of vapes at the point of sale.
This Bill is the product of the combined effort of Members of both Houses and many outside Parliament over the course of many years. A key manifesto commitment of this Government is to create a smoke-free generation, and this Bill has rightly received support from across the political parties. I express my thanks to many—over, as I said, many years—but I particularly thank the former Prime Minister, the right honourable Rishi Sunak MP, who committed to the original form of this Bill. I also thank my ministerial colleague, Ashley Dalton MP, and the members of the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Smoking and Health. Many others have also informed and motivated the action by this Government.
As we turn our attention to the substance of the Bill, I want to highlight its core aims. At its heart, the Bill is about safeguarding the health of our population. Its fundamental principle is to address the cycle of addiction and societal disadvantage. It is a key component of our broader health mission: a commitment to shift from treatment to prevention. Under our Plan for Change, the Government are committed to ensuring a sustainable health system that moves healthcare from hospital to the community, from analogue to digital and from sickness to prevention.
The Bill incorporates a UK-wide approach, reflecting the need for change across our four nations. Health is a devolved matter, so the Bill has been developed in close partnership and collaboration with the Scottish Government, the Welsh Government and the Northern Ireland Executive. This ensures not only greater consistency across the nations but a more enforceable regime across the UK.
In addition to creating a smoke-free generation, the Bill will amend the existing powers to designate certain outdoor settings as smoke free. This will offer greater protections to those at risk from the harms of second-hand smoke. Any such extension will be carefully considered and subject to consultation. In England, the Government will consult on banning smoking outside locations frequented by children and vulnerable people, such as schools, hospitals and playgrounds, but not outdoor hospitality or wider open spaces. Private outdoor spaces are out of scope of the powers in the Bill.
In addition, the Bill provides regulation-making powers to address the entire life cycle of tobacco, vaping and nicotine products, enabling the Government to set appropriate product standards to protect consumers. The introduction of a pre-market registration scheme will provide comprehensive oversight of manufacturers and the products they introduce to our stores. Retail licensing provisions then facilitate ongoing monitoring and modification of retailer practices, strengthening enforcement and ensuring adherence to the measures we put in place.
It is important to acknowledge, as I know many noble Lords do, the dynamic nature of the products we are discussing and the fact that our scientific understanding of their long-term impact continues to evolve. Therefore, the Bill allows for the highly technical details of the regulatory regime to be set out in subsequent regulations that are well placed to adapt to emerging evidence and market innovations.
This is not just about the Bill. The Bill is part of a wider effort across government to address the challenges of smoking and youth vaping. The Government are actively supporting current smokers who wish to quit. We are increasing funding for local stop smoking services by an additional £70 million in 2025-26 and delivering national action, such as the national smoke-free pregnancy incentives scheme and the vaping Swap to Stop scheme.
The Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs has laid legislation that will see the ban of single-use vapes from 1 June this year, addressing a key factor in youth vaping as well as environmental concerns. Moreover, to discourage non-smokers and young people from starting vaping, and to generate revenue for public services, the Government will introduce a vaping products duty, which will come into force from 1 October 2026. In order to continue to incentivise smokers to quit and keep the differential in price, duty rates on all tobacco products were increased by 2% above inflation in the Autumn Budget, with further additional increases for hand-rolling tobacco to reduce the gap with cigarettes.
We recognise the importance of robust enforcement of our new laws and regulations, so the Government have announced £10 million of new funding in 2025-26 for Trading Standards to tackle the illicit and underage sale of tobacco and vapes, and to support implementation of the measures in the Bill. In total, we will invest £30 million of new funding in 2025-26 for enforcement agencies, including Trading Standards, Border Force and HMRC.
I extend my gratitude to noble Lords on all sides of the House for their ongoing support for the Bill and for getting it to this stage. The time to act is now, which is why this is priority legislation for this Government and why we have gone further than the previous Government. I look forward to the collegiate and constructive debate that I know will follow from my engagement thus far, and I will seek to respond to the main questions and themes. I beg to move.
Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)
My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Ramsey of Wall Heath, but I am afraid I have some philosophical reservations about aspects of the Bill, in particular about the proportionality in the relationship between the individual and the state. I believe that individuals should be free to make choices for themselves, and that, of course, includes bad choices. Nevertheless, it is incumbent on all of us to ensure that individuals are armed with as much information as possible to encourage them to make good choices, so I accept that the Bill has at its heart good aims and intentions that I broadly support. Who could realistically argue against reducing harms for young people? There is no argument that some vaping products deliberately target young people, which, if nothing else is, is immoral.
While acknowledging this and speaking solely on the subject of the sale of tobacco, like the noble Lord, Lord Scriven, I do not think that writing a law where those born at one minute to midnight on 31 December 2008 have more freedoms than those born two minutes later makes any sense at all. Surely it would be far better to introduce a much higher age limit before individuals can legally make that choice, while increasing education and incentives to help them make a good choice. I accept that that would negatively impact a small group of people who are currently smoking legally. I also acknowledge the apparent illogicality of making this argument, as the Government intend to legislate to allow someone born on 1 January 2009 to vote in public elections. If they can make that informed decision, then maybe for the sake of consistency, we should argue for lower legal age limits across the board.
I also have some practical concerns about how the Bill would be enforced, and others have also made this case. What actually happens in a few years’ time, when two young men visit a corner shop late at night and decline to provide age verification to the only staff member working? If the shopkeeper hands over the tobacco, they will commit an offence. If they do not, what might they face? Perhaps it might be rather more than my noble friend Lord Blencathra’s choice language. The Labour Party has a proud tradition of standing against harassment of and violence against retail workers—indeed, it has made it clear that it would like that to be an aggravated offence—so does it make sense to create conditions that seem highly likely to increase precisely that behaviour? I thought that was described very eloquently by my noble friend Lord Moylan. Some will argue that this will encourage smaller shops to cease selling tobacco and vaping products, and that is obviously a good thing, but history and current events teach us what happens when there is an absence of a product for which there is considerable demand or when that product becomes prohibitively expensive. What happens is, of course, that organised crime spots an opportunity.
Prohibition is the most obvious example of the former, and that did not work, although it did help the Mafia establish solid roots in the United States. A more current example is provided by the enormous wealth of the drug cartels. On the subject of the cost, we need only to look at Australia, already mentioned by my noble friend Lord Naseby, where a packet of cigarettes costs more than $50 and where a vicious gang war has broken out to control what 9Network news describes as a booming black market. This is not, to use the word in the argument of the noble Lord, Lord Stevens of Birmingham, a zombie argument but a factual one. One in five cigarettes sold in Australia is apparently supplied by a criminal syndicate. This gang war is so vicious that it has led to a spate of fire-bombings of in excess of 200 small shops.
As my noble friends Lord Naseby and Lord Blencathra and the noble Baroness, Lady Hoey, pointed out, criminal activity is already a problem here. I looked at it from the bottom up, and a cursory survey of recent BBC News stories indicates that, for example, trading standards and police raids on only 50 stores in Devon and Cornwall yielded £186,000-worth of illegal product in March. In Northamptonshire, 30 shops in the north of the county yielded £394,000-worth. In Grimsby and Cleethorpes, 90,000 cigarettes, 20 kg of rolling tobacco and 4,800 vapes were seized in April. I commend the agencies for their efforts, but that is sure to be only the tip of a much larger iceberg because, again, the zombie objection makes no allowance for the fact that organised criminals are not stupid. I cannot see how writing laws that will inevitably encourage criminal activity can ever be justified.
The fact is that demand will always be satisfied, so it is surely much more effective to tackle the demand side of the equation. We should educate, incentivise and encourage. We should not place unnecessary burdens on small businesses and, in particular, on small shopkeepers who are having a hard time of it at the moment for all sorts of other reasons. We should not place individuals in those shops at personal risk because in 2034 they are unable to judge whether a 25 year-old was born on or before 1 January 2009.
A smoke-free future is obviously in everyone’s interest, and I say that as an unrepentant smoker, but so would be an alcohol-free future, a drug-free future and probably a cream bun-free future. These are noble aspirations, but in practice they are not going to happen. This aspect of the Bill as written will cause more problems than it solves. As this is St George’s Day, we should channel that spirit and slay the right dragon, which in this case is demand.
Baroness Merron (Lab)
My Lords, I am grateful to all Members of your Lordships’ House who have contributed to what has been a thoughtful and wide-ranging debate on a very important issue.
Today’s debate has been very well supported. I hope that noble Lords will understand that I will not be able to cover in my summary every issue that has been raised, but I will endeavour to respond to as many of the themes and questions as possible. Of course, I will be happy to have further discussions with noble Lords, and we will have the opportunity for these ahead of and during future stages of the Bill. I too look forward to Committee.
It seems many hours ago since my noble friend Lady Thornton spoke of the measures in this Bill being a further step along the way. I share that view, which has been expressed by a number of other noble Lords, particularly those in what I shall politely call the cohort of former Health Ministers. I do not know what the collective term is, but I am sure we will work on that. I am in that cohort, and I too worked towards the initial smoking ban in 2007. As a Public Health Minister, I introduced the display regulations we are now so used to. When we introduced the original ban in 2007, no one could have dreamed of the challenges we have today, including vaping; this was not something we had considered. It was also important to go with the public, which is why I was keen to outline the public’s support in my opening remarks.
I am grateful for the challenge. I have heard many concerns being expressed today, along with outright opposition to the Bill. I have also heard much support for the Bill, although there are rightly questions about the measures in it. Many noble Lords have been supportive, including the noble Lords, Lord Lansley and Lord Stevens, who assisted me by anticipating some of the arguments that will be deployed. The noble Baronesses, Lady Redfern and Lady Smith, and many others, were also very supportive.
I am grateful to my colleagues on both Front Benches for taking a line similar to the one I am about to take in respect of the Chief Medical Officer’s views. These include:
“If you smoke, vaping is safer; if you don’t smoke, don’t vape.”
I am also very grateful to noble Lords who were good enough to join me yesterday at a briefing with the Chief Medical Officer and officials, which I certainly found helpful. I know that others did too.
I understand that there are different perspectives on a number of issues, and I now turn to some of the points that were raised. I heard concerns about the smoke-free generation policy from a number of noble Lords, including the noble Lords, Lord Scriven, Lord Brady, Lord Naseby, Lord Sharpe, Lord Teverson and Lord Moylan. However, the reality is that smoking leads to significant harm. A clear majority of smokers regret ever having started. My noble friend Lord Browne spoke about this, as did the noble Lord, Lord Vaizey, who recounted his own personal experience. Many people struggle to give up due to the addictive nature of nicotine.
I am grateful to a number of noble Lords for sharing their personal experiences, which brought colour and a human touch to our debate. These included the noble Lords, Lord Jopling and Lord Rennard, my noble friends Lady Rafferty, Lady Ramsey and Lord Griffiths, and the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan.
However, let us remember that the harms of smoking extend beyond the individual. They impact on non-smokers, especially children and pregnant women, through second-hand smoke. This policy will be the most significant public health measure in a generation. It will build on the previous steps I spoke of, such as the 2007 indoor smoking ban, with the goal of safe- guarding the health of future generations from preventable and serious harm. That is why we are bringing the Bill forward.
The noble Baroness, Lady Fox, decried the Bill on a number of levels, including—she must forgive me if I am wrong on this—that it is Tory legislation. Actually, this is a Bill on which we are agreed across the House and across parties. Of course there are questions, but a wise Government and wise Opposition Benches acknowledge good when they see it. That is where we are today.
A number of noble Lords suggested raising the age of sale to a particular age—for example, 21 or 25—as a potential way to address smoking. As the noble Lord, Lord Bourne, put so well, that would not stop young people starting to smoke. The whole point is that, once you have started to smoke, the challenge of giving up is tremendous, because it is an addiction. Introducing a particular age could have a positive impact but it will not fully achieve the ambition of a smoke-free UK. Our goal is to go further, to break the cycle of addiction. We want to drive smoking rates down to 0%. That is why we have suggested a smoke-free generation.
On the practicalities, implementation is absolutely key. On ID checks, the majority of retailers sell tobacco and vapes responsibly—I acknowledge that. They follow the recommended practice and regularly ask for ID from customers. The Bill provides powers to specify in regulations the steps that may be taken to verify a customer’s age, to provide clarity and to support retailers. The noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, spoke to this point. We are exploring how we can enhance age verification with digital verification services, providing an opportunity to securely verify age, both in person and online.
With regard to the products in scope, the Bill captures all tobacco products, as tobacco is uniquely harmful. There are around five times more people smoking non-cigarette tobacco, such as cigars, than a decade ago, and the greatest increase is among young adults. To the noble Earl, Lord Howe, and the noble Lord, Lord Vaizey, I would say that this is why the Bill, importantly, captures all tobacco products and must not be watered down to exclude certain products.
The noble Earl, Lord Lindsay, and the noble Lords, Lord Strathcarron, Lord Scriven and Lord Brady, referred to other products outside of this range. I again call upon the words of the Chief Medical Officer: there is no safe level of tobacco consumption. That is what sets it apart from other products that we might feel are harmful. There is no safe level, not even a little bit; that is the key. Therefore, cigars, shisha and heated tobacco are all in scope. To the point raised earlier about heated tobacco, there is evidence from laboratory studies of its toxicity, and there are, as noble Lords have spoken of, less harmful tobacco-free products to support people to quit, rather than heated tobacco.
A number of noble Lords raised points about the growth in illicit sales. The noble Lords, Lord Dodds, Lord Blencathra, Lord Naseby, Lord Scriven, Lord Howard and Lord Murray, the noble Baroness, Lady Hoey, and the noble Earl, Lord Leicester, were concerned that the Bill’s ambitions could be undermined in this respect. As other noble Lords have said, history shows that when we have introduced targeted tobacco control measures, the size of the illicit market has not increased. As the noble Lord, Lord Bichard, told the House, it has in fact continued to fall. When the age of sale increased from 16 to 18, the number of illicit cigarettes consumed fell by 25%.
On the point raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, the Government are cracking down on the demand for illicit trade, as well as the supply, with the joint strategy with HMRC and Border Force backed up by over £100 million of new funding over five years.
I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Bichard, for articulating support for those who work in trading standards as well as acknowledging their worth, and I share his views on that. As these were points raised by the noble Lords, Lord Moylan and Lord Udny-Lister, it might be helpful to reiterate that we have announced £10 million of new funding in 2025-26 for trading standards to boost the workforce and tackle the illicit and underage sale of tobacco and vapes.
A number of questions were raised about whether driving down the smoking of tobacco could lead to an increase in the smoking of cannabis. As the noble Lord, Lord Kamall, accurately said, the Bill is not banning the smoking of anything—it is in reference only to tobacco and vapes. I also ought to say that we are not aware of any link between the rates of smoking cannabis and the rates of smoking tobacco. I know that noble Lords are more than aware that cannabis is, of course, illegal.
On the matter of abuse against retail staff, raised by my noble friend Lady Carberry, we are working closely with retailers and will utilise the long lead-in time to best support them in preparing for and implementing these changes. That includes rolling out information campaigns for both the public and retail workers. We will not stand for violence and abuse against shop workers; everyone has the right to feel safe. To protect hard-working and dedicated staff who work in stores, this Government will introduce a new offence of assaulting a retail worker.
On the issue of smoke-free places, in England we intend to consult on extending smoke-free outdoor places to outside schools, children’s playgrounds and hospitals, but not—I say to my noble friend Lord Faulkner —to outdoor hospitality settings or wider open spaces such as beaches. This is because—and it might be helpful to the noble Baroness, Lady Bray, as an assurance—we judge that this adequately balances a range of priorities by protecting the most vulnerable while ensuring that businesses are not financially impacted.
There was a lot of discussion about the rationale for the broad powers, including within the Bill. Noble Lords are right to point to the high number of regulation-making powers that the Bill takes. I have no doubt that noble Lords have enjoyed or will enjoy scrutinising the 96-page delegated powers memorandum, which sets out in full the detail of the rationale for each and every one of the powers. I recommend it as good reading. Concerns were particularly raised by the noble Earl, Lord Howe, the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, and the noble Baronesses, Lady Hoey and Lady Meyer. I assure noble Lords that each of these powers has been carefully considered and aims to ensure that the Bill establishes a clear regulatory regime for tobacco, vaping and nicotine products, and that we have worked very closely with the Attorney-General’s Office to get it in the right place.
As the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, spoke to, given the need to adapt to emerging scientific understanding and to market innovations, it is crucial that the details of the regime are set out in regulations, to ensure sufficient flexibility. In addition, most of the regulations require significant technical detail, which is more appropriate for secondary legislation.
As some noble Lords referred to, the Bill is UK-wide, so certain powers are being repeated for each part of the UK. Equally, the Bill restates or amends a number of existing powers from across tobacco control legislation, to bring it together in one place. That will help to make legislation more useful and accessible.
I can assure noble Lords that the Bill provides a statutory requirement to consult on regulations, and we are working constructively with retail associations and the Local Government Association to help shape the early design of the scheme. The noble Lord, Lord Mott, was right to say that we should support responsible retailers, who are the majority and who want to do the right thing. They do not want to be undermined by those who are not being responsible. I put that to the noble Lord, Lord Udny-Lister, who was concerned about impact.
On the matter of balance in respect of vapes, there was a useful debate, both in the Chamber and at a meeting I held with the Opposition Front Bench, about the matter of flavours. To avoid unintended consequences on adult smoking rates, the scope of restrictions will be carefully considered and consulted on. The noble Earl, Lord Howe, raised the issue of exemptions from the advertising ban for public health purposes. We are clear that healthcare providers can continue to provide advice about vaping as a smoking cessation tool. For example, pharmacists could display public health campaign messaging or provide advice to customers about vaping as a smoking cessation tool. I wish to say to my noble friends Lady Mattinson and Lord Hanworth, as well as the noble Earl, Lord Russell, that we will keep emerging evidence under review, and have already commissioned a 10-year study to investigate the long-term effects of vaping on the health of 100,000 young people, which I hope will be helpful.
On the matter of filters and the environment, I understand and am sympathetic to the concerns raised by noble Lords, including the noble Baronesses, Lady Grey-Thompson and Lady Bennett. The environmental harm of items with tobacco butts is evident, as it is the most littered item in the UK. Ultimately, the best way to tackle this littering is through reducing smoking rates, but we are where we are. Local authorities already have powers to tackle littering, including through the ability to issue fixed penalty notices of up to £500. We are working closely with Defra to take a systematic approach to what is indeed something of a blight.
On the matter of age and the concerns, including twins born either side of midnight, should such a thing ever happen, I remind noble Lords that other policies already do this, such as universal credit increases, NHS screening programmes and access to vaccines.
On the “polluter pays” levy, raised by the noble Lords, Lord Crisp and Lord Young of Cookham, my noble friend Lord Faulkner and the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, the Government’s present preference is, as I think noble Lords are aware, to continue with a proven and effective method of dealing with tobacco products through increases in tobacco duties, to incentivise those who currently smoke to quit, and to generate finances that can be put back into public services.
I am most grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Bethell, for his support for the Bill and appreciate the intentions behind his suggestion to be smoke-free by 2040.
On the points about the Windsor Framework, I have heard the concerns about the application of smoke-free generation policy in Northern Ireland from the noble Lords, Lord Dodds and Lord Weir, the noble Baroness, Lady Hoey, and my noble friend Lady Ritchie. I have met the Northern Ireland Health Minister, and we continue to work well with his office. I assure noble Lords that we are content that the measures intended to apply to Northern Ireland are consistent with the obligations in the Windsor Framework.
In closing, I am most grateful to all noble Lords who have contributed to this debate. This is a landmark Bill, and it will be the most significant public health intervention in a generation, so I beg to move.
Monday 27th October 2025
(9 months, 2 weeks ago)
Grand CommitteeTobacco and Vapes Act 2026 Read Hansard Text Amendment Paper: HL Bill 89-I(a) Amendment for Grand Committee (Supplementary to the Marshalled List) - (24 Oct 2025)
This text is a record of ministerial contributions to a debate held as part of the Tobacco and Vapes Act 2026 passage through Parliament.
In 1993, the House of Lords Pepper vs. Hart decision provided that statements made by Government Ministers may be taken as illustrative of legislative intent as to the interpretation of law.
This extract highlights statements made by Government Ministers along with contextual remarks by other members. The full debate can be read here
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Baroness Merron) (Lab)
My Lords, I am most grateful for the amendments and also the contributions today. As we know, this group of amendments seeks to change or to place conditions on our smoke-free generation policy. As the noble Lord, Lord Young, and the noble Earl, Lord Howe, both observed, this group is very much at the core of the Bill and I understand the amount of interest that we have had today.
Let me say at the outset that there are a number of areas raised by noble Lords that I will return to in much greater detail, including, as the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, to: verification and retailers in group two; illicit sales and licensing in group 13; tobacco products that are in scope in group 16; and vaping, which is in groups five and six. I look forward to the detail of those debates when we get to them.
Perhaps I could say that I am grateful for the supportive comments on this Bill, which, as we have been reminded throughout, was introduced under the previous Government. Credit goes to them for doing so, in particular for the commitment that was shown by the former Prime Minister, the right honourable Rishi Sunak. I am therefore grateful to my noble friend Lady Carberry, the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, and the noble Lord, Lord Bourne, who helpfully reminded us all that this is a health Bill, and that is what we are here to consider. I also thank the noble Lords, Lord Bethell and Lord Young, and the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, all of whom have been supportive of the smoke-free generation principle and have emphasised to the Committee today the amount of public support for that and its role in stopping the cycle of addiction.
I will start with the amendments tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Murray of Blidworth, which propose changing the age of sale and proxy purchasing offences. These amendments would make it an offence to sell tobacco products, herbal smoking products or cigarette papers to a person under the age of 21. They would also make it an offence to buy or attempt to buy these products on behalf of anyone under the age of 21.
I am also grateful for the points that were just made by the noble Earl, Lord Howe, on this group of amendments. I cannot fail to emphasise that smoking is indeed the number one preventable cause of death, disability and ill health. It is unique in its harm, because it claims the lives of around 80,000 people a year in the UK, it causes one in four of all cancer deaths in England and up to two-thirds of deaths in current smokers can be attributed to smoking. I am sure that, over the years, noble Lords have heard the Chief Medical Officer’s opinion of the contribution that smoking makes, and that there is no safe level of smoking.
To the point raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, who spoke about restrictions on adults’ individual autonomy, three-quarters of people who smoke wish that they had never started smoking. The majority want to quit and we want to help them. In my view, smoking is not about freedom of choice; I believe that the tobacco industry takes that choice away through addiction, particularly at a young age. In my view and that of a number of noble Lords whom I have heard speak, there is no liberty if we are speaking of addiction.
Almost every minute, someone is admitted to hospital because of smoking and up to 75,000 GP appointments can be attributed to smoking every single month. There is, as has been referred to, an economic cost. It is estimated to cost our society more than £21 billion a year in England alone, including £3 billion a year in costs to our health and care service. This is far from insignificant.
That is why this Government has made a commitment to create a smoke-free generation, so that anyone born on or after 1 January 2009 will never be legally sold tobacco products. I recall the noble Lords, Lord Scriven and Lord Mackinlay, making a particular reference to the potential contribution of people bringing tobacco back from abroad, but the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, and the noble Lords, Lord Murray and Lord Strathcarron, talked about the Bill prohibiting smoking. Let me make it clear: the smoke-free generation policy is not about criminalising people who smoke. It will not be an offence to possess or consume tobacco, regardless of your age. I can tell the noble Lords, Lord Scriven and Lord Mackinlay, that we are not imposing new restrictions on bringing tobacco back into this country.
I agree with my noble friend Lady Carberry. It is my belief—it is not just a belief, in fact; it is based on experience—that, if we raise the age of sale to 21, to which this group of amendments refers, the tobacco industry will simply change its business model and target older adults; a number of noble Lords referred to this. It will not meet our ambition of a smoke-free UK.
Similarly, the Bill makes proxy purchasing an offence such that anyone over the age of 18 cannot legally purchase tobacco products on behalf of someone born on or after 1 January 2009. The noble Lord, Lord Scriven, and the noble Earl, Lord Howe, asked important questions about the handling of proxy purchasing. I have explained clearly what the offence is and who would be responsible for it. This is about protecting children from the harms of smoking. I reiterate that tobacco is uniquely harmful. As I have said, there is no safe level of smoking; I emphasise that, to my knowledge, no other consumer product is killing two-thirds of its users.
Lord Scriven (LD)
I just want to pursue the issue of proxy purchasing abroad. My question was not about whether people will be able to buy tobacco abroad or whether duty-free limits will cease. My question was: if somebody buys cigarettes in a jurisdiction outside the UK and, when they come back, gives one of them to someone who is not legally entitled to buy them here, will that be an illegal act for the UK citizen who has bought that product abroad?
Baroness Merron (Lab)
The purchasing referred to is within our jurisdiction.
That gives me an opportunity to make a general but important point. This is about changing culture and practice. It is not about everything staying the same. This is not just a message but a practice in terms of what is acceptable and what is not. All noble Lords have seen changes over the years, as I did when I was the Public Health Minister in the previous Labour Government, which have meant that we can speak about this Bill, as we are doing today, in a way that I do not think would have been possible just a few years ago. Tobacco is a deadly addiction, and preventing children starting to smoke is undoubtedly the easiest way to reduce smoking rates. We have to be bold and brave on this, which is why we are committed to creating a smoke-free generation.
My noble friend Lady Carberry mentioned the impact assessment. Modelling shows that creating a smoke-free generation is expected to help reduce smoking rates among 14 to 30 year-olds to near zero by 2050. That is a prize worth having, in my view. Over the next 50 years, it will save tens of thousands of lives, as well as many years lived in ill health with misery, discomfort and pain; it will also avoid up to 130,000 cases of lung cancer, stroke and heart disease. As I say, all of these are, I believe, prizes worth having.
On the impact assessment, a number of noble Lords said that an “age 21” policy would have just the same impact as a smoke-free generation policy. That is not true. We are aware that the tobacco industry has been telling parliamentarians this. I must say, again, that it is incorrect. The published modelling considered different scenarios for the impact of the smoke-free generation policy; it did not model the impact of raising the age of sale to 21. I believe that we have a responsibility to protect future generations from becoming addicted to nicotine; to break the cycle of addiction and disadvantage; and to allow people the chance to live healthier lives.
Lord Scriven (LD)
The Minister must be clear that the report was done by KPMG; it was commissioned by Philip Morris Ltd, but it was not written by that organisation.
Baroness Merron (Lab)
I am happy to accept that clarification, but the point that I am driving is still being driven.
I now move on to Amendments 5 and 205 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, which seek to introduce an interim age of sale of 21 at Royal Assent, before the smoke-free generation provisions come into force. Although I appreciate the noble Lord’s ambition in seeking to raise the age of sale for relevant products, which we are discussing, it is my view that these amendments are not necessary; indeed, they would distract from our ambitions. Let me explain why.
Under this Bill, the smoke-free generation will come into force in 2027 when people born on or after 1 January 2009 turn 18. Subject to timetabling, these amendments would mean that any interim age of sale proposed by the noble Lord would be in place for only a year or less. Retailers and enforcement agencies—they are, as many noble Lords have acknowledged, absolutely key to the success of this measure—would not be provided with any time to prepare for the increase to 21. I do not feel, therefore, that a measure such as this one would be helpful; indeed, it would divert resources.
The important matter of communication to the public came up in the debate. The noble Lord’s amendments would confuse all such communications if a different regime were to apply for such a short time.
The noble Lords, Lord Strathcarron and Lord Mackinlay—as well as other noble Lords—referred to the situation in Australia. Let me say this in response: we are not aware of any evidence for the illicit market in Australia being the result of a change in the age of sale. In fact, I am advised that Australia has not changed its age of sale since 1998. I say this to noble Lords: the UK is highly regarded for its robust, comprehensive approach to tackling illicit tobacco. Despite what the tobacco industry may say, implementing tobacco controls does not lead to an increase in the illicit market.
The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Fookes) (Con)
My Lords, we have another Division, so the Committee is again suspended for 10 minutes.
Baroness Merron (Lab)
My Lords, I hope my responses have been a reassurance to the Committee and that the proposers of these amendments will feel able not to press them.
Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)
May I ask one question? The Minister has not yet touched on the issue of Northern Ireland. Is it right that the Windsor Framework precludes the generational smoking ban coming into effect in Northern Ireland?
Baroness Merron (Lab)
The Bill is UK-wide, as the noble Lord will be aware. It has been developed in partnership with the Scottish Government, the Welsh Government and the Northern Ireland Executive, and the intention is that the measures in the Bill will apply across the UK. I assure him that, in preparing the Bill, the Government considered all their domestic and international obligations and the Bill does comply.
Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)
I thank the Minister for her answer and her remarks, and all noble Lords who have spoken in this fascinating group. While the amendments themselves are not fascinating—because I proposed them—the speeches of noble Lords have been. They have shown a consistent and deep interest in the topic and a variance of views.
A number of issues remain unanswered, as highlighted by the somewhat roundabout answer on the compatibility of the generational ban with the Windsor Framework. Noble Lords will no doubt still have a number of other questions, in particular in relation to the fact that there is no proposal in the Bill for possession of tobacco to be an offence, nor the smoking of it. Instead, we are told that there is to be an offence of supplying cigarettes and buying them for another. That sort of offence is unworkable and unenforceable, and is effectively window-dressing for a scheme that is highly unlikely to succeed. That perhaps stands as a totem for a problem with the generational ban more generally—it is unworkable and unenforceable and will lead to greater criminality.
We saw from the speeches by Members across the Committee that there is a range of views. Accordingly, I suspect that there is a real risk that, if this Bill were to pass with the generational ban in it, it would be revisited in the same way as occurred in New Zealand when realisation of successful implementation was seen to be too far off and the approach changed. With that, although I reserve the right to reconsider the issue on Report, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Earl Howe (Con)
My Lords, I turn next to my noble friend Lord Lansley’s amendments, which would introduce requirements and provide enabling powers for age-verification technology to be built into vaping devices themselves. This proposal opens up all sorts of interesting avenues of thought. The idea of age-gating devices, using technology to prevent use by those who are underage, is innovative by any standards. As we heard from my noble friend, there is already at least one technology that would facilitate this; like him, I am led by the manufacturers to understand that it has been successfully trialled in the United States.
There could be distinct advantages to such a system: it would close a loophole that rogue sellers currently exploit; it would be more effective as a way of reducing the incidence of underage vaping; it could avoid unpleasant confrontations in retail stores, about which we know retailers are very worried; and, as my noble friend said, it would not affect the way in which adults use vapes as a way of quitting smoking. From the Government’s point of view, an amendment along the lines of my noble friend’s would act as a form of future-proofing the Bill, because it would enable them to regulate the technology in devices or packaging— a power that this Bill does not currently give them. Can the Minister tell us whether the Government have considered systems of this kind and whether officials are aware of developments in this field?
I turn to the amendment in the name of the noble Viscount, Lord Hanworth, which calls for a review of age-verification methods. The Committee will be grateful to him for raising this idea; it links into my noble friend Lord Lansley’s amendment, but it also speaks to the crucial principle that we must remain properly informed about how these measures will work in practice. This Bill introduces a major new regulatory framework, so it has to be monitored and tested against real-world evidence. Age verification will, as I have said, be central to the Bill’s success, so we need credible and accurate systems to facilitate it. The noble Viscount is therefore right to emphasise the need to engage directly with those on the front line: the retailers who will have to implement these rules every day. Their experience will be one of the best indicators of whether the system is working as intended.
I turn to the amendments in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Brixton, introduced by the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, which seek to place a statutory requirement on businesses to operate age-verification policies in England and Wales. These are well-intentioned amendments, and we share entirely the objective of preventing underage sales. However, as I read it, the Bill as drafted already makes it an offence to sell tobacco or vaping products to anyone below the legal age and provides for a due diligence defence for retailers who have taken all reasonable precautions. In practice, that means having and enforcing an age-verification policy, which is the very outcome that these amendments seek to achieve. The familiar Challenge 25 model is already a well-established part of a range of retailer compliance. So, although we understand and respect the motivation behind these amendments, we do not believe that it is necessary to restate these duties in the Bill.
I welcome the amendment from my noble friend Lord Young of Cookham, which would prohibit the online sale of tobacco products. This raises serious and timely questions around enforcement, fairness and the protection of legitimate retailers. My noble friend put his case very well. Online sales prevent a potential route for illicit or underage trade; as purchasing habits continue to shift online, that risk will surely only increase. We therefore see every benefit in exploring whether a prohibition or stricter control of online sales is appropriate.
If I were to voice a caveat, which I am sure my noble friend would not object to, it would be that we must always ensure that law-abiding retailers—those who comply with the law and operate responsibly—are not disadvantaged. Any new regulation has to be clear, enforceable and fair. The central question here is: has the Minister given any thought to this issue? If so, what capacity do the Government have to enforce a measure such as the one suggested by my noble friend? What mechanisms exist to distinguish legitimate traders from those operating illicitly? Can we control online sales in the way we would like to do? I am sure that the Minister will be the first to recognise that, if unregulated online trade becomes a loophole—indeed, it already is—it will seriously undermine the objectives of the Bill.
Baroness Merron (Lab)
My Lords, this group of amendments addresses the important topics of age verification and online sales. I am grateful to all noble Lords for not just their contributions but the intent behind these amendments—an intent that I have heard as being presented to assist the Bill. I am grateful for noble Lords’ considerations; I have certainly heard the support given by the noble Lord, Lord Bourne, to a number of these amendments.
I turn to Amendments 24 and 25 tabled by my noble friend Lord Davies of Brixton, who is not able to be in his place. We wish him well. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, for presenting these amendments, which would introduce a requirement for a person carrying on a business selling tobacco, herbal smoking, vaping or nicotine products, in England or Wales, to operate an age-verification policy. I certainly welcome the intention to prevent underage sales and to express a view—as I have heard not just from the noble Baroness but from other noble Lords—about supporting retailers to do the job that we are asking of them. I associate myself with that, but we believe that the Bill’s current provisions are sufficient in this regard.
Lord Lansley (Con)
Is the Minister aware of the retailers—some 3,000 of them—which have written to Ministers to make the point, which emerged in a number of noble Lords’ speeches, about how concerned retailers are about the emphasis upon them denying access to vapes? The use of age-gating technology would substantially relieve those pressures on retailers.
We need to look at what the evidence may be about whether adult smokers who wish to quit by using vapes would be at all deterred by the age-gating technology. To that extent, what worries me is that we may conclude, either through international experience or pilot schemes in this country, that they are not deterred at all. Then suddenly we do not have access to a technology that would deal with illicit sales and proxy purchasing, which the point-of-sale restrictions will not bite upon. I worry that we should have the powers available.
Baroness Merron (Lab)
I understand the point the noble Lord makes. I believe I said that it potentially risks making vapes less accessible. I know that that is not a view that he shares. I also agree that, where there is evidence, we need to be focused on it in the measures we are taking. But the position I have outlined is the case. I will reflect on the comments that he and other noble Lords have made, which I have heard very well. I understand the concerns of retailers and I am very aware of them; that is why we continue to work so closely with their trade associations to overcome difficulties. We do not want retailers to be put in a position where they cannot do the job that they want to do. We will continue in our work in that way.
With that, I hope the noble Lord will feel about to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Moylan (Con)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for her concluding remarks and for the sensitive and attentive way that she commented on the debate; she has clearly listened to what noble Lords said and sought to respond within the limits of government policy. As far as my own amendments are concerned, I heard what she said with just a hint of encouragement; there was not a slamming of the door at least, so I look forward to seeing what the Government come forward with on Report.
Concerning the other amendments in this group, I refer to the fact that the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, used the words unintended consequences. The Bill potentially has quite a lot of unintended consequences. Some of them relate to age verification and the role of retailers in the architecture created by the Bill. There are potential lacunae in the Bill.
I simply say that the sooner the Government come forward with draft regulations and a clear idea of what is being required, the happier noble Lords will be and, more importantly, the happier the retailers—including online retailers—will be with the Bill as it goes forward. I hope that the Minister recognises that and feels that the Government can act on it. Perhaps we might even see some draft regulations before the Bill completes its passage through your Lordships’ House. In the meantime, with that hopeful and optimistic wish on my lips, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.
Baroness Merron (Lab)
My Lords, I thank noble Lords for their thoughtful contributions. As they have acknowledged, the Government are taking bold action to create the first smoke-free generation. Our published modelling shows that smoking rates in England among 14 to 30 year-olds could be close to 0% as early as 2050. I make that point particularly in respect of Amendment 4, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Bethell.
I sympathise with the intention of his amendment and with the other amendments we have debated in this group. Let me assure noble Lords that, as is consistent with best practice, we will evaluate this legislation as is appropriate and helpful, such as by monitoring smoking rates over time. We need to ensure that no one is left behind in this smoke-free UK that we seek to create.
However, I say to the noble Lord, Lord Bethell, that we do not believe that an outright ban would be the most effective or proportionate way of encouraging current smokers to quit. As he knows, we are taking an evidence-based approach to supporting current smokers to quit and have invested an additional £70 million both last year and this year to support local authority-led stop-smoking services in England. We are continuing our national smoke-free pregnancy incentive scheme to support pregnant smokers to quit, which the noble Lord, Lord Young of Cookham, referred to.
I turn to Amendment 193, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Young of Cookham. I aspire to be as mindful as I know he is of the importance of parliamentary scrutiny of the implementation of legislation. As I mentioned, we will assess the implementation of the Act, which is consistent. For measures implemented by secondary legislation, we will publish post-implementation reviews as appropriate. I can also commit to publishing a report on the Bill before Parliament, in line with our requirements, so we do not feel that it is necessary to outline this in the Bill. There are no plans to develop a report on specific targets or to publish a road map at this time, because we are focusing our attention and total ambition on making sure that we can deliver the Bill and work on the regulations that will follow.
The noble Lord, Lord Young, asked about a retained target to have a smoke-free England by 2030. We are going even further than the Smokefree 2030 target. As I have mentioned throughout, our ambition is for a smoke-free UK and creating the first smoke-free generation.
Finally, I turn to Amendment 199, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Northover. The Government are committed to ensuring the successful implementation of all measures in the Bill, as I am sure she appreciates. We will ensure that the public, retailers, enforcement bodies and other relevant groups are aware of all measures and their associated commencement date. We will publish clear guidance in advance to aid a smooth transition. The noble Baroness’s amendment also seeks to include measures to raise public awareness. That is absolutely key, as the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, also said.
I say to noble Lords that we run successful public health campaigns to support smokers to quit and to inform the public on the harms of tobacco. Indeed, this month is our annual Stoptober campaign. I therefore reassure the noble Baroness that my officials are working to ensure that everyone will be informed about the smoke-free generation policy and the benefits of quitting and continuing that route.
To the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, about social media campaigns, earlier this year we launched the first ever campaign to inform young people about the health risks of vaping. The campaign featured on social media and paid media used by young people, and the noble Baroness will be delighted to know that that included working with trusted influencers to speak directly to—how might I put it?—a younger audience.
On the comments by the noble Lord, Lord Harlech, the matter of which tobacco products are in scope will be covered in detail in group 16, and I look forward to discussing that.
On the basis of those responses, I hope the noble Lords will feel able not to press their amendments.
Lord Bethell (Con)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for her concluding remarks, which were thoughtful, detailed and thorough. I congratulate the Government on pursuing these measures with the energy and determination that Rishi Sunak brought to it when he was Prime Minister. They still enjoy widespread support in all corners of the House—not unanimous support, but widespread.
I am grateful for the Minister’s commitment to the £70 million cessation budget and to the smoke-free pregnancy programme that my noble friend Lord Young of Cookham mentioned. I am grateful for her commitment to evaluation and assessment and to a post-implementation review. These are standard. I hope very much that she has taken on board the comments about the need for a clear road map and for accountability, and I am grateful for everything that she said on that.
I also emphasise the importance of a public health campaign—whether it should use influencers and Kardashians, I am not quite sure—and I pay tribute to the DHSC and the NHS for their public health campaigns, which have proved to be effective: they are good curators of the nation’s health when it comes to campaigning. I emphasise to the Minister the critical importance of getting both the guidance and the communication right. We do not legislate in order to communicate, but the communication of good legislation is very important.
I also stand by the Minister’s comments on cigars and other tobacco products. I thought my noble friend Lord Harlech made extremely clear and persuasive points. I totally take on board everything he said on my 2040 extinction proposal and would very much like to talk to him about that in future, and how it might be shaped.
With that in mind, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.
Thursday 30th October 2025
(9 months, 1 week ago)
Grand CommitteeTobacco and Vapes Act 2026 Read Hansard Text Amendment Paper: HL Bill 89-II(b) Amendments for Grand Committee (Supplementary to the Second Marshalled List) - (30 Oct 2025)
This text is a record of ministerial contributions to a debate held as part of the Tobacco and Vapes Act 2026 passage through Parliament.
In 1993, the House of Lords Pepper vs. Hart decision provided that statements made by Government Ministers may be taken as illustrative of legislative intent as to the interpretation of law.
This extract highlights statements made by Government Ministers along with contextual remarks by other members. The full debate can be read here
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
Earl Howe (Con)
It certainly could be—it sounds a very interesting way forward. I did not take it that the noble Earl was suggesting introducing a levy as a substitute for tobacco duty but as an addition to it, so, in the nature of things, if this were accepted, that is the mix we would get.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Baroness Merron) (Lab)
My Lords, I am most grateful for the debate today on this group of amendments, which seek to impose regulatory obligations on the tobacco industry. Although in general I would certainly say that I have sympathy for the aims behind these proposals, I suggest that, for the reasons I will go on to outline, they are not necessary in respect of the Bill.
Amendment 192, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Young of Cookham, seeks to require the Secretary of State to consult on proposals for regulating the prices and profits of, and to raise funds from, tobacco manufacturers and importers. Similarly, Amendment 194 from the noble Earl, Lord Russell, seeks to require the Secretary of State to introduce regulations to raise funds from tobacco manufacturers and retailers.
The noble Earl, Lord Howe, made the first point that I was intending to make. I feel that in many ways —I know not all noble Lords will share this view—we already have a “polluter pays” tax on tobacco, which comes in the form of tobacco duties, as the noble Earl outlined. Overall, throughout, I am very focused on what impact will be made on improving public health and driving down rates of smoking, as I know we all are. I also appreciate that there are different opinions as to how that might be done. It has been pointed out regularly to the Government that the UK has some of the highest tobacco taxes in the world. Duty rates on all tobacco products were increased by 2% above inflation in the Autumn Budget last year, with an additional increase for hand-rolling tobacco to reduce the gap with cigarettes, and this duty raises about £8 billion a year.
I am aware that the noble Lords, Lord Bourne and Lord Scriven, in addition to other noble Lords, are very supportive of these amendments. I am sure that noble Lords who have quoted me accurately today will probably say I should have looked at this before, but I refer back to, as the previous Government will be aware, a previous consultation in 2014, which showed that going down this road would not raise the significant amounts being referred to when you take into account lost duties.
I have spent quite a lot of time with officials and others going through the detail of all this, not least because of my previous comments. Certainly, having had the chance to review the detailed government advice and all that comes with it, which I now have access to as a Minister, I think that the way to reduce the profits of the tobacco industry is to reduce the use of tobacco—I believe I said that on day one in Committee—and by creating a smoke-free generation. That is not just a prize in itself but will have a great impact, in the way I think noble Lords seek, on the industry. It is unclear to me how an additional levy on tobacco industry profits could be implemented without the costs being passed on to consumers—again, there was some concern about that in this debate—or without regulating prices.
The noble Lord, Lord Young, referred to a price cap on tobacco products. Certainly, my investigation into this shows that regulating pricing would be extremely complicated to design and implement, and difficult to shield from abuse and challenge by the global tobacco industry. Therefore, given that, as I just said, our focus is on implementing our smoke-free generation, our judgment is that the benefits do not outweigh the costs.
Therefore, at this stage, to do the job that I believe most people—not everybody, I know—is focused on, our preference would be to continue with what is a proven, effective and understood model of increasing tobacco duties. This approach provides an incentive to those who currently smoke. It incentivises them to quit, which is what we want to focus on, as well as generating revenue to be put back into a full range of public services, including public health and the National Health Service.
I say to the noble Lord, Lord Crisp, who I know is extremely well aware that I am about to say this, that of course tobacco taxation is a matter for His Majesty’s Treasury, and decisions on taxes are reserved for fiscal events. I would be extremely unwise, in my position, to speculate in advance of a forthcoming Budget.
Moving on to Amendment 12—
Lord Young of Cookham (Con)
Houdini would be jealous of the way the Minister ingeniously escaped the trap I set for her earlier, as she tried to reconcile her previous position with what she is now saying. But does she accept that the amendment does not at all ask the Government to introduce a levy? It says:
“The Secretary of State must consult and report on the desirability”.
That would enable the Government, and indeed others, to look at some of the issues that the Minister has raised. The 2014 exercise she referred to consulted on a totally different levy, which would have been passed on to the consumer. The difference between the “polluter pays” principle as we propose it and the one that she proposes is that in the case we prefer, it would be the tobacco manufacturers that would pay, whereas relying on the duty, as the Minister seems to, means that the consumer pays.
Baroness Merron (Lab)
I agree that Amendment 192, tabled by the noble Lord, would require the Government to consult on introducing a tobacco industry levy, but, as a former Minister himself, he will be aware of the use of consultation. It remains the case that we believe that the most effective model of dealing with tobacco products is through increases in tobacco duty, so it would not be logical to accept an amendment that requires a consultation on something the Government do not wish to pursue. Amendment 194, in the name of the noble Earl, Lord Russell, would require the Government to make regulations to introduce a tobacco industry levy.
Amendment 12, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, would require the Secretary of State to lay regulations requiring tobacco manufacturers and importers to publish quarterly data relating to the sale of tobacco products across England and Wales. Similarly, Amendment 148, also tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, would require regulations made under Clause 95 to require the provision of certain information, including sales data from producers or importers of relevant products. The noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, also spoke in support of these amendments.
This is perhaps an opportunity to refer back to the words of the noble Baroness, Lady Fox. I heard her concerns about what I said on day one. This is not a question of labelling an industry in any way, but we take very seriously our obligations as a party to the World Health Organization Framework Convention on Tobacco Control. I and the Government are very sympathetic to attempts to increase and improve the transparency of the tobacco industry.
I certainly agree with the observations of the noble Baroness, Lady Northover. We know that deprived areas are more likely to have lower life expectancy and higher smoking rates. That is why we particularly need to press forward with this legislation. It is also why we routinely and proactively publish correspondence received from and sent to the tobacco industry, and have produced guidance for the Government on engagement with the tobacco industry, which protects health policy from the commercial and vested interests of the tobacco industry and encourages transparency in all interactions.
Lord Scriven (LD)
That is an important point. When will the consultation end? Will we have its results before we are asked to give this Bill its Third Reading?
Baroness Merron (Lab)
I will gladly come back to the points that the noble Lord has just made, if he will allow me. In the meantime, there is no doubt as to the intention and ambition of each of the amendments before us, but it is the Government’s view that they either are unnecessary, due to existing powers, or would risk introducing complexity and unintended consequences; they would not do the job that I know we all want them to do. Once again, I assure noble Lords that we remain committed to reducing smoking, to improving public health and to ensuring transparency around the tobacco industry’s activities.
In so doing—this is perhaps the overall point of this group—I can say that the answer to the question from the noble Lord, Lord Scriven, it is 3 December 2025 on which we can set that date for the call for evidence to close. What I am trying to say to noble Lords is that that is very soon. In answer to the noble Lord’s concerns about how long these things might take—
Lord Scriven (LD)
My question to the Minister was slightly different. It was not about when the consultation will close. It was about whether we would have the results and the Government’s view before Third Reading. That is the critical question—not, “When will the consultation close?”
Baroness Merron (Lab)
The noble Lord will be glad to know that I am reminded of what I should know already: matters in relation to the dates for Third Reading are matters for business managers. It will also depend on how much progress we make.
Baroness Walmsley (LD)
I ask for a brief clarification. Is the Minister claiming that Amendment 12 is not necessary because she will accept Amendment 148?
Baroness Merron (Lab)
No, that is not the case. I urge the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, to withdraw her amendment.
Baroness Northover (LD)
My Lords, this group is about the polluter paying and responsibility across a wide range of areas. On Amendment 12, on the practice of disclosing sales data, it is already in place in the United States—full data to the Government and partial to public sources. It is also the practice in Canada, so there is precedent for that. It is not seen as an unreasonable burden, but it is a useful public health tool. It is important to know, for public health reasons, which I and others have outlined, where sales are high.
The noble Baroness, Lady Fox, referred to growth. She might want to consider the economic and growth consequences of the ill-health costs to individuals, families and the NHS and the death that results for so many consumers of tobacco products, then factor that in when she is looking at growth in the United Kingdom. Tobacco kills, which she rightly referred to. I do not need to refer her to the cancer registries—that is self-evident. It is therefore appropriate that we address this. As a former student of Marx, as she identifies herself, she will be very familiar with the notion of exploitation, particularly of the poor and already disadvantaged, to which I have referred, and the difference at the moment in outcomes between groups in terms of equality.
This is an important area. We are seeking to strengthen the Government’s arm, as is always the case when you move from “may” to “must”. We look forward to further discussions with the Minister on how best we do that. In the meantime, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.
Baroness Merron (Lab)
My Lords, I thank all noble Lords for their contributions on this group of amendments exploring the part of the Bill that relates to the sale of vaping products. I will make a general point to start with, which may be helpful as it has come up a number of times in the debate. It is true to say that vapes are less harmful than smoking because they do not contain tobacco and have fewer harmful chemicals. However, because there is a nicotine content and there are unknown long-term harms, there is a risk of harm and addiction that comes with vaping. That is particularly acute for adolescents whose brains are still developing.
There is a careful balance to be struck in taking action against youth vaping, by which I mean children and young people, while ensuring that vapes absolutely remain accessible to adults who are seeking to quit. Noble Lords will have heard me refer before to the Chief Medical Officer, who is clear that if you smoke, vaping will be a better option; but if you do not smoke, do not vape. It could not be clearer.
Earl Russell (LD)
I welcome the Minister’s response. However, she said that my amendment would make vaping significantly more expensive than smoking but I want to fundamentally challenge that. That is not the case. The £25 would be a one-time deal; after that, you would save every time you refilled your vape. You would just spend £25 once in your lifetime. That is not making vaping more expensive than smoking in any way at all.
Baroness Merron (Lab)
I appreciate the clarification that the noble Earl has made. If that is the case, though, I have to say that that would send a complex pricing message to people, and we are not seeking to add complexity to where we are going. I am not sure I agree with the analysis but I am happy to look at the point that he is making.
Perhaps it will be helpful if I reassure the noble Earl that we are already acting to pick up the point that he rightly raised and which the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, was keen to emphasise, which is to ensure that vapes are not sold for pocket-money prices. Indeed, the Chancellor has confirmed the introduction of a vaping products duty from 1 October 2026. That will set out a single flat rate of £2.20 per 10 millilitres on all vaping liquids, and it will be accompanied by a simultaneous one-off increase in the rate for tobacco duties.
The noble Earl, Lord Russell, raised a number of points about the environmental damage done by vapes. I will be pleased to hear and respond to the debate in the next group about single-use vaping.
The noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, asked about vapes being prescribed as a quit aid. We have a world-first scheme here, Swap to Stop, to help adults to ditch cigarettes as part of a 12-week programme of support, as I highlighted earlier in response to the noble Lord, Lord Moylan.
Amendment 28, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, would prohibit businesses from providing free samples of tobacco and vaping products. The noble Baroness said herself that Clause 15 already bans the free distribution of any product or coupon that has the purpose or effect of promoting a tobacco, herbal smoking, vaping or nicotine product as well as cigarette papers, and that includes free samples. It should never have been the case that addictive nicotine and vaping products could have been legally handed out for free, and I am glad to say that the Bill closes that loophole. Clause 15 also states that products cannot be sold at a substantial discount, which will ensure that businesses cannot heavily discount products to the point where the price is no longer such a relevant factor for a prospective purchaser. So the noble Baroness is quite right to seek to close that loophole, and I am grateful to her for raising the issue, but I can confirm that the Bill already achieves her intention.
Earl Howe (Con)
To pick up on that, I ask the Minister to clarify the issue that was left slightly in the air earlier about the derivation of nicotine. While nicotine can be synthetically produced, it is derived from tobacco, but the point made by definition in the Bill is that a vaping product is a distinct product from a tobacco product. So the advertisement seen by the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, which I agree is highly regrettable, may be accurate in saying that the product is derived from tobacco but is not a tobacco product. Is that correct?
Lord Kamall (Con)
My Lords, if we take the logic of the noble Baroness’s argument about nicotine being derived from tobacco, does that drive a coach and horses through the distinction between tobacco products and vaping products? Wherever you stand on this argument, are we now arguing that vaping products are, in fact, tobacco products because the nicotine in them is derived from tobacco? We all have to clarify this, whichever side of the argument we are on.
Baroness Merron (Lab)
I fear to tread here—I will be brief. The Bill distinguishes between tobacco products, nicotine products and vaping products. They are separate products. I emphasise the point that I made earlier: vapes are not risk-free, although they are less harmful than smoking. They do not involve burning tobacco, which releases tar and carbon monoxide. However, I must say, having heard the range of debate, I feel that it would be very helpful for me to write to noble Lords with further clarity on these points.
Baroness Merron (Lab)
I look forward to doing so.
I turn to Amendment 16, which was moved by the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, and tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Parkinson. It seeks to probe the reasoning behind the age of sale for vapes and nicotine products set out in Clause 10, as well as why this differs from the proposed new voting age. The Bill restates the existing age of sale of 18 for nicotine vaping products; it also extends this restriction on the age of sale to nicotine products and non-nicotine vaping products, to which no age restrictions currently apply.
On the points made by the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, the age of sale for these products and the voting age serve completely different purposes. The age of sale for vaping and nicotine products aims to prevent children and young people becoming addicted to harmful products at a very young age. The risks of harm and addiction from vaping and nicotine products are, as I mentioned earlier, particularly acute for adolescents, whose brains are still developing, so an age of sale of 18 is proportionate to the risks posed.
The age of sale of 18 is indeed distinct from extending the right to vote to 16 and 17 year-olds. In the latter case, which we have yet to debate in the House and the other place, extending the right to vote allows them to have a say in shaping their future and engaging in our democracy. We are looking at completely different criteria. The Government have set out their plans to bring forward their legislation on electoral reform, and I am sure noble Lords look forward to debating those proposals in due course. For all these reasons, I hope noble Lords will feel able to withdraw their amendments.
Lord Moylan (Con)
May I probe a little on the noble Baroness’s response to my Amendment 18? On the one hand, she seemed to take a hard and unrelenting line on vending machines, particularly in enclosed mental health premises. On the other, the noble Baroness said towards the end that she was still working on it, and I wondered to what extent one could look for hope. I am sure the noble Baroness said that she was still working on these issues. I appreciate that she has consulted the National Health Service, but I think she probably means NHS England, a vast organisation at some distance removed from patient contact. In fact, it has no patient contact at all. The noble Baroness, Lady Fox of Buckley, said that representations have been made by a certain number of mental health trusts on just this issue. Their views need to be considered, because they are very much closer to real life. May we hope that the Minister will come back at a later stage with something that modifies the severity and comprehensiveness of the ban that is, as she says, in a Bill that we are here to change?
Baroness Merron (Lab)
I will be happy to check exactly what I said but, to be clear, we are not continuing discussions about vapes in hospital and mental health settings, in respect of vending machines. As I said, that is in the Bill. I hope I was making the point that discussions are continuing in respect of vape-free places, and that will be a matter for regulations. I assure the noble Lord that NHS England was in full consultation with the relevant parts of the services. It does provide services and it is the right organisation. As the noble Lord knows, we are bringing NHSE into the department in any case in the future. I am sure he will welcome that, as I certainly do.
Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-Afl)
This has been a wide-ranging debate and I thank the variety of noble Lords who spoke. There has been some clarity: it might not be clarity that I am happy with, but we heard the noble Earl, Lord Russell, say that his aspiration is a nicotine-free generation, not just a tobacco-free one. There has been some confusion about the conflation of tobacco and nicotine. The Bill, at least, makes a distinction between those things. It is possible that the Minister—and every other Lord who wanted to get rid of that distinction—wants to challenge the nature of the very core of the Bill, but I assure them that the Bill makes that distinction. If that is not true, it would be interesting to hear what has happened there.
Also, medical scientific discussion on this makes the distinction very clearly and endlessly, particularly, by the way, by oncologists. Those who work with people who have developed cancers from smoking are very enthusiastically promoting nicotine products. As I understood it—as I was assured at Second Reading by the Government and noticed in other communications —we should not be fearful that vaping was a target of prohibition from the Bill. But the more the conversation goes on, and the more it is treated the same, then that is the direction of travel. I would still argue that when one says that the evidence is not in on whether something is helpful, it is not a scientific way of approaching it. The evidence is not in on a wide range of things that are happening in the world. It is evidence that we base evidence-based policies on, not the lack of it.
In the discussion on young people, we ended up discussing whether we are protecting children in a variety of the amendments, through to 20 and 30-somethings in a nightclub who should not be let near a vending machine with vapes in it. My point was not that they would be recreationally vaping because they would be having a good time and therefore it was very dangerous. Although, I have to say that having a good time in a nightclub is not yet, I think, illegal. Having a drink and a cigarette outside a nightclub is, as yet, not illegal—although it might well be by the end of the Bill. The point about vaping was that young people having a good time will often have a social cigarette, and the vaping vending machine might encourage them to do something less harmful. That was my point, rather than me trying to get them all vaping or forcing them to vape.
The conflation of children and young adults needs to be sorted out. In that sense, although I am sure I did not do remotely as good a job of moving Amendment 16 as the noble Lord, Lord Parkinson, would have, we need to be clear that voting in elections is not a technical matter; it is philosophically about saying that someone is an autonomous adult. Therefore, we have a conflict in who we consider children and adults when it comes to health.
I finish by saying I am genuinely, totally disappointed by the attitude to mental health provision and vending machines. Many mental health charities are concerned about this. The age-gating issue is not an issue in mental health hospitals. This idea that there will be hordes of children wandering around accessing vapes from a vending machine—it just seems cruel and inhumane. I do not understand why that exception would not be made. It is true that mental health charities and family groups have suggested that having the odd vending machine in a hospital where people are restricted from leaving would be helpful. It would be kind and compassionate. I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.
Earl Howe (Con)
My Lords, the first amendment in this group, in the name of the noble Earl, Lord Russell, and the noble Baronesses, Lady Grey-Thompson and Lady Walmsley, shines a spotlight on a fascinating question: when is a reusable vape not a reusable vape? The ban on single-use vapes came into force on 1 June this year, as we have heard. Single-use or disposable vapes are clearly defined in the guidance: they are vapes which are not designed or not intended to be reused. For all the reasons given by the noble Earl, especially the environmental reasons, that ban is soundly based. A reusable vape is one that possesses two key features: it must have a battery which can be recharged and the e-liquid container—that is, the cartridge or the pod—can be either refilled or replaced with a separately sold item, which is where the amendment comes in.
The regulation explicitly states that a device is not refillable or reusable if it has a single-use container, such as a pre-filled pod, that you cannot buy separately and replace. In other words, the law at present tries to capture in the definition of a disposable vape all devices that look and function like a disposable vape. So far, I hope, so clear, but as we have heard from the noble Earl, this leads on the ground to some grey areas of interpretation. A vaping device may be packaged in such a way as to claim that it is intended to work with replaceable pods—and hence that it should be classed as refillable and reusable. In practice, however, that claim can sometimes be a fiction. If, in reality, the replacement pods are not readily available for purchase separately, the device is at risk of falling foul of the legal description of a reusable vape. Enforcement authorities will also check whether the battery is genuinely rechargeable and whether a replaceable heating coil is genuinely replaceable.
More and more reports suggest that in some shops, replacement pods are either not available at all or are in very short supply. Furthermore, so-called reusable devices are priced similarly to the former disposable vapes. The net effect is that the user is tacitly encouraged to throw away the entire device, including the battery and the pod, once they have finished using it. Functionally, the supposed reusable vape has become a disposable vape.
The question therefore is: is there a need to change the definition of what counts as a disposable vape? The noble Earl suggests in his amendment that part of the answer is to ban pre-filled single-use vaping pods. The problem with that suggestion is that some vaping devices properly classified as reusable devices genuinely depend on the supply of replacement single-use pods and are thereby genuinely reusable. Banning all single-use pods would mean removing those types of reusable vaping devices from the market, a step which, on the face of things, appears rather severe.
What, therefore, is to be done? If it is true that many devices currently on the market technically tick the box of being refillable or reusable but in practice behave like disposables, how are we to address that loophole? Is the answer to reframe the regulations, or does the answer lie in intelligent enforcement by local authorities and trading standards? I will be interested to hear the Minister’s reply.
That point links neatly to the second amendment in this group, Amendment 145, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Fox of Buckley, which I think makes a sensible and pragmatic case, pace the noble Baroness, Lady Carberry, to whom I listened very carefully. In introducing further regulations in this area, we would be well advised to take stock of the prohibitions that have already been introduced and examine their impact in practice. The single-use vape ban that came into force on 1 June provides us with an opportunity to do that. We will no doubt debate at later stages the regulation-making powers designed to control flavours, and so on. I align myself with the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, in wanting to tread cautiously, reflecting on how the single-use ban came in as quickly as it did and whether some unintended consequences have ensued from it.
Baroness Merron (Lab)
My Lords, I am most grateful to noble Lords for the debate on this group of amendments. I will start with Amendment 22, tabled by the noble Earl, Lord Russell, which seeks to ban all “pre-filled single-use vaping pods”.
We understand the concerns being raised about the environmental harms of single-use products. The ban that was introduced by Defra came into force on 1 June, which was not so long ago. Under that ban, vapes must be rechargeable and refillable, while any coil must be replaceable. A vape is not considered refillable if it has a single-use container, such as a pre-filled pod, that you cannot buy separately and replace. Pre-filled pods that can be replaced are therefore not captured, to the points raised by a number of noble Lords, as the ban focuses on tackling the greatest environmental harms. Those are posed by batteries and the surrounding elements contained in the vapes. I acknowledge that vaping creates waste; that is true when users fill up a tank or pod themselves using refill bottles, as the noble Earl described, as well as when pre-filled pods are used.
However, to minimise the environmental impact, since April 2024 it has been compulsory for all businesses selling vapes and vape products, including pods, to provide their customers with a recycling bin and to arrange for these products to be collected by a verified recycling service. I hope that makes a helpful contribution in answering the points raised by the noble Earl, Lord Howe. Since this obligation came into force, some 10,500 vape takeback bins have been introduced into stores. I say to the noble Earl, Lord Russell, that Defra is monitoring the impact of its regulations and will consider the environmental impact of any new vaping regulations brought in using the powers in this Bill.
I hear the concerns about the appeal of single-use pods to children. The Bill contains powers to regulate vape devices. Importantly, we have recently launched a call for evidence that seeks information on the role that different sizes, shapes and features of devices play in the appeal of vaping to young audiences. As part of that, we would welcome evidence on any types of vaping device that particularly appeal to children. I assure the Committee that we will use the evidence to inform future proposals on potential restrictions to devices.
Amendment 145, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, seeks to place additional requirements on the Secretary of State before regulations can be made on contents and flavour. I note that part of these requirements involves evaluating the impacts of the ban on single-use vapes, which came into force on 1 June. Defra is monitoring the impact of its regulations and a post-implementation review will be undertaken in line with statutory obligations.
Turning to the impact of future restrictions on contents and flavour, we recognise that vape flavours are an important consideration for smokers seeking to quit. We will therefore consider the scope of restrictions very carefully to avoid any unintended consequences on smoking rates. I am grateful to my noble friend Lady Carberry for her contribution on this group.
As I said, to support all this, the call for evidence was launched on 8 October. It includes questions about the role of flavours, their contents and the associated risks. I assure noble Lords that before any restrictions are introduced on contents and flavours, we will conduct an impact assessment. We will also undertake a consultation on our policy proposals, and Parliament will have the opportunity to scrutinise the regulations. I hope that this response allows noble Lords not to press their amendments.
Earl Russell (LD)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for her response to my amendment and the other amendment in this group. It has been an interesting group. I also thank the noble Earl for his response to my amendment. He speaks absolute truth: the reality for most people is that, if you have a legal vape with a pod in it and you are minded to not use it as a one-time product but to replace the pod, most shops do not sell them. You cannot get them, they are not available, and the reality is that big tobacco is skirting these regulations and selling only the vapes, not the pods—and, even if you buy the pod, they cost almost the same as buying a new vape.
I recognise the need to review the regulations, which are very recent, and I welcome the fact that Defra is monitoring that, but the real trouble here is that the regulations did not go far enough and there is no clear blue water. They are neither fish nor fowl. It is too easy to skirt these regulations. You just stick a charging point on, stick a pod in it, and you have met the requirements of the regulations, but the reality is that you are still selling a product that is extremely cheap, is used once and thrown away. These matters need further thought.
I asked the Minister whether she could update us on the work of the circular task force. Perhaps that is something we could do before Report. I am happy for that to be done in writing, but more needs to be done. I recognise the call of the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, for more evidence; the Minister has given some reassurance on that. However, I do not support holding up the Bill while we wait for that evidence. With that, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.
Monday 3rd November 2025
(9 months, 1 week ago)
Grand CommitteeTobacco and Vapes Act 2026 Read Hansard Text Amendment Paper: HL Bill 89-III(a) Amendment for Grand Committee (Supplementary to the Third Marshalled List) - (3 Nov 2025)
This text is a record of ministerial contributions to a debate held as part of the Tobacco and Vapes Act 2026 passage through Parliament.
In 1993, the House of Lords Pepper vs. Hart decision provided that statements made by Government Ministers may be taken as illustrative of legislative intent as to the interpretation of law.
This extract highlights statements made by Government Ministers along with contextual remarks by other members. The full debate can be read here
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Baroness Merron) (Lab)
My Lords, I am most grateful to noble Lords for their contributions to this debate. This group of amendments deals with the details of the forthcoming retail licensing scheme.
Let me say in opening, in response to all of these amendments, that our intention in this regard is very much what the noble Earl, Lord Howe, just spoke about: to support legitimate businesses that stick to the rules while deterring and being able to deal with rogue retailers. We want the scheme to minimise the burden on retailers and local authorities as far as is possible—again, a point that was rightly made by a number of noble Lords.
Let me first turn to Amendment 30, moved by the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh. I hope I can reassure her that the Government are carefully considering the design and implementation of the licensing scheme. In respect of her opening comments, we look forward to continuing to work with the Association of Convenience Stores and other important and relevant groups. Considering the design and implementation of the scheme will include the interaction with alcohol licensing.
I can tell the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, that we are working closely with the Department for Business and Trade as well as the Home Office. However, as she recognised, ultimately, our objectives and motivations are different; they may be complementary, but they are different. For example, on alcohol licensing, the focus is on supporting resilience and growth of on-trade venues that provide safe and regulated spaces for people to socialise. With tobacco and vape licensing, as I said, it is about ensuring that we support those who abide by the rules and act as a deterrent to those who do not. Of course, we have a public health objective.
The noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh, asked about pressures on enforcement, which is a very reasonable question. Local authorities will be able to use the licensing fee they collect from retailers to cover the cost of running and enforcing the licensing scheme. That will assist local authorities and will ensure that the scheme is implemented and sustainable. I believe the noble Baroness also asked if there would be enough time for training and development. Again, that will be part of our discussions that will follow from the call for evidence and the consultation after that, which I will come to very soon.
I want to pick up the point the noble Lord, Lord Bourne, made about looking to other nations. We are aware of several international examples where this has been very successful, including some cities in the United States, Finland, Hungary, France, Italy, Spain and Australia. We have much to call on and will absolutely be considering what works best in the development of our own scheme.
Noble Lords will recall from earlier discussions that we have recently launched a call for evidence, which closes on 3 December. That is on a whole range of issues, including questions about the process for granting licences and implementation more generally. That will inform a subsequent consultation on the detail of the scheme. The points being raised today are all important and they will be considered through both those actions.
I turn now to Amendments 35 and 42, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Kamall. Amendment 35 seeks to prevent the Secretary of State requiring licensing authorities to consider the location and/or density of tobacco and vape retailers when they make decisions on the granting of licences. The call for evidence asks for feedback on how licensing authorities should make decisions and whether and how much factors such as the ones the noble Lord rightly raised, location and density, should have a role. However—I am sure many noble Lords would agree with this—there are certain places where it would obviously be inappropriate for a tobacco or vape shop to be located. For example, I have not heard a call for vape shops to open next door to children’s nurseries, so there are some obvious points. As our aim is to stop children and young people smoking and vaping, it is absolutely right that we consider factors that might have a role, such as the location and density of retailers. I am very much looking forward to the feedback on this through our call for evidence.
Amendment 42 would require the Government to consider the benefits of combining tobacco and alcohol licensing into a joint scheme. I certainly understand the noble Lord’s very good intention to learn from existing licensing schemes and to avoid unnecessary burdens on retailers—something I have already associated myself with. We recognise that alcohol licensing is established and familiar to a lot of businesses, and that we can learn from alcohol licensing when designing the new scheme. That is why the call for evidence includes detailed questions on the design, and why we have to consult. It is the right thing to do, but it will also meet the intentions of the amendments before us. This process will allow us to consider where we can make use of existing systems and practices, as noble Lords have called on us to do. We share the view that the minimisation of additional costs and burdens, as far as possible, is the right thing to do, while ensuring that the new licensing scheme achieves our aims on tobacco and vapes.
I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Bourne, when he said that the current lack of a licensing system for tobacco is a major gap in enforcement. Therefore, I am glad that the introduction of this new retail licensing scheme is strongly supported by retailers and the public alike. I hope I have been able to reassure noble Lords and that they will not press their amendments.
Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)
My Lords, I am very grateful for the opportunity to have had a debate on this small group of amendments. I am also grateful for the support from my noble friend Lord Bourne. I took great comfort from the fact that this has been achieved in other countries, so we can perhaps follow their good practice. I also thank my noble friend Lord Howe.
I think the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, misunderstood what I am trying to achieve here. I am trying to set out similar grandfather rights to those awarded in the implementation of the original alcohol licensing Act, as applied in 2005. These rights would allow those businesses already selling the products to continue selling them, but under a process I have set out. I hope that is something she might support going forward.
This is intended as a probing amendment, and my noble friend Lord Howe made the point that we are looking for fairness, proportionality and practicality. I hope that will be a red line running through this process. I hope we can return to this at a later stage, but for the moment I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.
Baroness Merron (Lab)
My Lords, I am most grateful for all of the contributions on this much debated set of amendments. I understand the concerns that have been raised.
I begin with Amendment 33 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett of Manor Castle, and Amendment 34 in the name of the noble Earl, Lord Russell. Let me turn first to the health arguments that have been put forward. We know that cigarette filters have historically been marketed incorrectly as making smoking safer, and that smokers perceive cigarettes with a filter as being more enjoyable and of lower risk. These points were mentioned by a number of noble Lords, including the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, and the noble Lords, Lord Rennard, Lord Patel, Lord Bourne and Lord Crisp. However, as with all regulations—I know that noble Lords will understand this—it is important that any measures are based on evidence, are fully considered and do not create unintended consequences. Obviously, that will be a theme throughout the Bill, particularly as we discuss these groups of amendments.
We acknowledge that there is some limited evidence on the health harms of filters, but we are not currently aware of any clear evidence—that is what is not in place—to show that a ban on filters would lead to a reduction in smoking rates; of course, that is the focus of this Bill. When it comes to encouraging existing smokers to quit—the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, rightly highlighted this area—we are prioritising investing in local stop smoking services, delivering smoking cessation campaigns, delivering access to nicotine replacement therapy and introducing positive, quit-themed pack inserts. I was glad to hear support for such measures from the noble Lord, Lord Rennard, and the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley. On that point, I want to refer to effectiveness, particularly as the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, made the point that such inserts might simply be discarded. The modelling suggests that, in terms of increased effectiveness because of themed pack inserts, there would be 150,000 additional attempts at quitting. Over two years, this would result in 30,000 successful quitting scenarios, which would reduce the incidence of smoking—exactly what we are focusing on.
The noble Lord, Lord Young, raised the concern that filters allow for flavoured crushballs to be added. I hope that it is helpful for me to say to your Lordships’ Committee that this Bill gives the Government the power to regulate flavoured tobacco products, herbal smoking products and cigarette papers, as well as any product that is intended to be used to impart flavour; this could include flavoured accessories, such as filters.
I turn now to the environmental concerns raised by a number of noble Lords, including the noble Earl, Lord Russell, and the noble Baronesses, Lady Bennett and Lady Walmsley. It is the case that cigarette butts are the most littered item in the UK. They are a blight on our streets and our communities. They take a long time to degrade, and they leach toxic compounds into the environment. The noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, raised the role of local authorities and the pressure on them because of this littering; again, I certainly take her point. Local authorities have a range of powers to tackle littering, including fixed-penalty notices for some £500. I also see the challenge that the littering of cigarette butts presents to local authorities.
However, ultimately, the most effective thing we can do to tackle tobacco litter as well as protect people’s health is, clearly, to reduce the prevalence of smoking. It is worth referring to the powers available to Defra, which would enable the Government to limit the damage to the environment caused by filters. Although we do not plan to take action in the short term, I assure noble Lords that we will certainly continue to monitor the evidence and keep this under review.
On Amendment 34, we do not believe there is sufficient evidence at present that banning plastic filters will lead to better environmental outcomes, although I absolutely understand the wish for this. Evidence suggests that filters labelled as biodegradable or plastic-free, as the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, mentioned, can still take a very long time to degrade in the natural environment and leach harmful chemicals. Studies have also shown that people who believe that cigarette butts are biodegradable are more likely to litter them. We are therefore concerned that a ban on plastic filters could have unintended consequences and undermine attempts to reduce littering, if people incorrectly believe that plastic-free filters somehow do not damage the environment.
Lord Crisp (CB)
Before the Minister moves on, can I ask a question that I asked earlier? If she recognises that 75% of smokers think that filters reduce the risk—indeed, they may increase it—does she not think the Government should be doing something to counter that belief, perhaps more actively than they are doing at the moment?
Earl Russell (LD)
Before the Minister rises, I welcome the response to this amendment, but the point is that most people still litter their fag butts in any case and believe that they are already biodegradable, so I press the Government to take further action in this area.
Baroness Merron (Lab)
I say to the noble Earl, Lord Russell, that the issue is about depth of evidence and how action, if it is to be taken, gets the right result. I went over the unintended consequences several times for my own benefit and I can see the potential for this not producing what we want. I take his point, but it is about how, when and what the evidence and the effects are. That is why it is not possible to accept the amendment.
I note what the noble Lord, Lord Crisp, said about the 75%. I am not in a position to comment on that, but I refer back to what I said—it is about getting the right evidence. The challenge in this group of amendments is that the evidence is not complete and taking us to the right place, but we will certainly keep this under review. I say that in respect of some of the other amendments too. Noble Lords will be aware that there are various powers in the Bill that allow changes to be made as things develop.
Amendment 155, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Mott, would add cigarette filters to the scope of Parts 5 and 6. Those parts apply to tobacco products, herbal smoking products, cigarette papers, vaping products and nicotine products. Those products have been included in the scope of the Bill as they cause harm in and of themselves. “Tobacco related devices” are also included in the scope of Part 5, so that we have the ability to regulate them in a similar way to vape devices. We are not convinced that the position with filters is the same.
While we agree that filters should not be advertised in a way that promotes smoking, which is partly the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Crisp, the Bill’s ban on advertising and sponsorship already covers any advertisement with the purpose or effect of promoting a tobacco product, restating existing provisions. The Advertising Standards Authority has rules on filters which state that marketing communications for filters should not encourage people to start smoking or to increase their consumption.
Lord Kamall (Con)
I am sorry to interrupt, but I asked how long the Government think they will need for evidence from Australia and Canada before they will be in a position to judge whether those health warnings have been effective. Can the Minister answer that either now or in writing? Secondly, do the Government have any evidence on what wording is most effective for health warnings? Once again, the answer could be in writing.
Baroness Merron (Lab)
I will gladly add to the brief points that I am going to make to the noble Lord. I was just about to turn to international comparisons. Sometimes, I feel the answer is “How long is a piece of string?” However, quite seriously, we constantly keep international comparisons under review because we are keen to learn and see. The challenge, which I will come on to, is to draw exact comparisons, for a range of reasons, including on what we are already doing.
On the point about international comparisons, it is important that we recognise that the UK already has some of the most stringent regulations in the world on tobacco packaging, which already emphasise health harms. This includes the requirement for plain packaging and graphic picture warnings on the outside of cigarette packets. As I have already referred to and noble Lords have discussed, we have announced that we will be introducing pack inserts to cigarettes and hand-rolling tobacco. I understand the motivation for these amendments, but we do not plan to introduce dissuasive cigarettes at this time. We will continue to monitor the evidence.
We are implementing many of the recommendations of the Khan review. This point was raised by the noble Lord, Lord Rennard. For example, we are majoring on the smoke-free generation policy, which is a major shift. Not only are we implementing many of these recommendations but we continue to keep them under review.
My noble friend Lady Ramsey asked about targets. Again, they will be kept under review. Unsurprisingly, our real target is delivering the Bill and designing the regulations so that they work. Some of this is also about where we can make the greatest impact in the quickest way, which is why we are focusing on the inserts rather than looking for additional things to do at this stage.
I hope that this is of some interest and reassurance to noble Lords and that they will feel able not to press their amendments.
Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)
My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in this rich, full and powerful debate. The political breadth around this Committee showing concern and calling for more government action is notable. I thank the Minister for her contribution and her full answers.
I specifically want to address the questions raised by the noble Earl, Lord Russell, about so-called biodegradable filters. I understand why the noble Earl thought the figures for these and plastic filters sounded similar; that is because the figures are similar. I can quote to the noble Earl an article on this area from Waste Management in 2018 titled, “Comparison of cellulose vs. plastic cigarette filter decomposition under distinct disposal environments”. That basically comes up with plastic filters taking 7.5 to 14 years to disappear and biodegradable ones taking 2.3 to 13 years, so the figures are similar. The Government are drawing on similar figures.
The Minister said both types are harmful to the environment and the natural world. There I will point to a study published in Environmental Pollution in 2020 titled, “Smoked cigarette butt leachate impacts survival and behaviour of freshwater invertebrates”. I have now referenced all the evidence in that space that the noble Earl might like to go away and look at.
This has been a hugely rich debate. I thank in particular the noble Lord, Lord Rennard, for giving us the irony story of the day about tobacco companies being concerned about toxic ink on their products. I think we probably should have a cartoonist in the Room at this point. We have had a great deal of consensus across the Committee about the need for action; the one stand-out different position was taken by the noble Baroness, Lady Fox. However, I do not share her concern about the welfare of cigarette manufacturers or the purity of their product design. Like the noble Lords, Lord Crisp and Lord Bourne, I think public health should be a matter of government policy, and I am delighted to have signed the noble Lord’s amendment in the planning Bill later so we will be back together on that one.
I particularly thank the noble Baroness, Lady Ramsey, who very bravely brought before us two family tragedies to illustrate that, in the end, we are talking here about human lives, people’s parents, people’s children and the suffering that comes from the merchants of death. The noble Lord, Lord Patel, brought his medical expertise, and the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, cited an important academic study that I hope the Minister will take a good look at in terms of action.
The response from the Minister to the noble Lord, Lord Young, was that the Government could regulate. I am afraid that what we would like to hear and what these amendments are seeking is for the Government to take action. I suggest that “could” is not good enough in these circumstances. It is worth saying that we are not talking about an either/or here. I am sure everyone very much welcomes the smoking cessation efforts that the Minister referred to, but people will continue to smoke, and we want to reduce the health and environmental harms that result.
Finally, the noble Lord, Lord Young, made an important point about cigarettes being close to your eyes and the small print. I point out that most of the people we are targeting here are young people who will not, as I do, have to get the bifocals at exactly the right line to be able to read seven-point print. I think that covers all that has been said here.
One thing I will add is that the noble Lord, Lord Kamall, referred to my amendment and others as probing amendments. I am afraid that is not my intention. I am obviously going to withdraw the amendment now, but I have full intentions of bringing it back. I hope the Minister might be open to discussions beforehand. In your Lordships’ House we have medical experts and people with real expertise, and we might be able to tease out some of the issues raised today in terms of the health damage being done by filters. What would it be like if we got rid of filters?
My final point, in responding to the Minister, is about the limited evidence of the harm of filters. We have strong evidence, established over decades, that there is no health benefit from filters. In the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Rennard, we are seeking to follow the leadership of Australia and Canada in putting markings on individual cigarettes, but perhaps we could be the leaders in banning filters. In the meantime, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.
Lord Kamall (Con)
My Lords, I will speak briefly on amendments in this group in the name of my noble friend Lord Bethell and the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, before turning to the amendment in my name and the name of my noble friend Lord Howe. They propose the establishment of a new licensing scheme for the distribution of tobacco, vape and nicotine products in addition to the retail licensing scheme already provided for under the Bill.
While I understand the rationale behind these amendments, I am sure it will come as no surprise that we have some concerns. My noble friend Lord Howe and I have already shared concerns about the impact of the regulatory framework of this Bill and the burden it will place on legitimate businesses, especially small retailers and distributors, which are already subject to extensive compliance requirements under existing law, and which will be beset with further regulation under the proposals outlined in the Bill.
However, we understand the underlying concerns behind these amendments about the illicit market, so we believe that they are helpful in probing the Government to understand where they believe there are enforcement gaps and whether they have evidence of gaps in enforcement at the wholesale level of the supply chain. I am, therefore, grateful to my noble friend Lord Bethell and the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley. Our understanding is that there are concerns over enforcement in relation to illegal imports at the customs level and illicit point-of-sale activity. These amendments give noble Lords an opportunity to ask the Minister where the Government believe the enforcement gaps are, and whether they currently exist.
In addition, if the Government have identified these gaps in enforcement at the wholesale level, do they believe that they could be best tackled by having a new, separate distributor licensing scheme, or do they share concerns over creating a second, parallel system operating alongside the retail one? My noble friend Earl Howe and I are concerned that such duplication risks adding unnecessary administrative complexity for local authorities, trading standards and legitimate operators alike. We also have concerns over how these two systems would interact, and whether businesses operating both wholesale and retail functions would be required to hold multiple licences and pay multiple fees. We are interested in the views of the Minister about our concerns.
Amendment 190, in my name and that of my noble friend Earl Howe, would require the Government to prepare and publish a national illicit tobacco and vape enforcement strategy within one year of the passing of this Act. This is a probing amendment—we have suggested one year; it could be slightly longer or shorter. We believe that this is a practical proposal which chimes with the intentions and ambitions of the Government on this Bill. Indeed, it is a concern that has been raised by noble Lords on all sides of the Committee. All noble Lords are concerned about illicit sales of tobacco and vapes, wherever we sit in this Room.
While we entirely share my noble friend Lord Bethell’s concern about the rise in illicit trade, we believe that the Government need a far more comprehensive view of how products enter, move through and are sold within the United Kingdom. They must develop an overall strategy to cover the stages of the supply chain from the point of import to transportation within the UK and, ultimately, to the sale of these products on our streets and online. In short, we need a coherent and strategic plan of enforcement that gives an overview, rather than one which tries to attack certain bits. Once we have the overview, we can look at where the gaps in enforcement exist and seek to plugs those gaps.
The trade in illicit tobacco and vape products is a serious and growing concern. We have heard throughout Committee that the introduction of a generational ban and other prohibitions in this Bill may, if not properly managed, risk pushing more activity underground into the illegal market. No noble Lord wants this to happen. No one benefits from a thriving illegal market but criminals and those that seek to circumvent the law. It undermines legitimate businesses, deprives the Exchequer of revenue and exposes consumers—often young people—to unregulated and potentially dangerous products.
That is why we believe it is essential for the Government to set out clearly how they intend to meet this challenge, and to explain who will lead, how the agencies will co-ordinate, what resources will be allocated and how success will be measured. We have attempted to be careful and sensitive in drafting this amendment; it does not demand an immediate response but sets out a reasonable and deliberate timetable. It gives one year, or perhaps a bit more, for the Government to prepare, consult on and publish a coherent strategy. That would give Ministers the time to review the evidence, engage with enforcement agencies and draw together the different strands of policy that are already being developed across departments.
If this Bill is to succeed in its wider aims, it must also be accompanied by a credible and co-ordinated plan to tackle the illicit market that so often undermines those very goals. This probing amendment simply seeks to understand how the Government intend to develop a strategy to tackle the illicit market, and whether they intend to take an overall and strategic view.
Baroness Merron (Lab)
My Lords, I am most grateful for the contributions in this debate and for these amendments, which rightly highlight the need to take a systematic approach to the illicit market. Having said that, we do not believe them to be necessary; I will gladly set out the reasons why in my remarks.
First, I am grateful for Amendments 39 to 41, 53, 54, 58 to 62, 123 to 125, 133 to 138, 206 to 208 and 212 from the noble Lord, Lord Bethell, which were spoken to by the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley. I am sympathetic to the aims contained in these amendments; the Government certainly share the aim of strengthening enforcement throughout the supply chain and ensuring that only legal products are on the UK market. As noble Lords are aware, the Bill provides powers for the Government to implement a licensing scheme for tobacco and vape retailers. The focus on retailers is to ensure that illicit products do not reach members of the public where they pose a risk to public health. The retail licensing scheme will enable conditions to be imposed on retailers as part of the terms for obtaining a licence. We expect all retailers to comply with the law and not sell illicit products; doing so will risk their licence being revoked.
In addition to the licensing scheme, the Bill provides powers for the Secretary of State to develop a new registration scheme for the products covered by the Bill. This will require all tobacco, vape and nicotine products to be registered before they can enter the market, meaning that wholesalers will be unable to supply illicit products to retailers as only compliant products should be available. The powers provided by the Bill also allow for the testing of products to ensure that they are what they claim to be. This will make it easier for enforcement officers to identify illicit products and to clamp down on both those who do not register products and those who seek to mislead.
The noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, asked about spice vapes. I have a couple of points to make here. Vapes containing controlled drugs, including spice, are obviously illegal; naturally, this is a matter for the police and Border Force. I am sure that it will be understood that the regulation of controlled drugs is not a matter for this Bill. However, the measures in it will create a simpler and clearer regulatory environment, which will assist enforcement agencies in identifying and taking action against non-compliant vapes. Border Force is taking action to detect and seize supplies of vapes laced with drugs at the border and is following law enforcement to dismantle the criminal gangs that attempt to smuggle illicit commodities into the UK. It is of course worth noting that the import, production or supply of a class B drug such as spice carries a maximum sentence of up to 14 years of imprisonment, an unlimited fine or both.
As well as the new measures in the Bill, there are already policies in place to manage products through the supply chain. The noble Lord, Lord Kamall, asked questions and made important points about the role of HMRC. For tobacco, HMRC already operates the tobacco “track and trace” system, which tracks the movement of all tobacco products, whether manufactured in or imported into the UK, through the supply chain all the way up to retail.
Also, the vaping products duty will come into force on 1 October next year, taxing vaping liquids at 22p per millilitre. To support the implementation of the duty, HMRC is introducing a range of measures, such as a duty stamps scheme to support the identification of non-duty-paid products, as well as investment in more than 300 additional enforcement officers. Vaping duty stamps will be in a hybrid digital and physical format, which will allow product tracing and authentication. Together, these schemes will better support a compliant market and weed out illicit products, as we all seek to do.
I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Kamall, for tabling Amendment 190, which seeks to publish a strategy to deal with illicit tobacco and vapes. I understand the concerns that have been raised regarding illicit sales, but this amendment is unnecessary given that the Government already publish a strategy on illicit tobacco sales.
Tuesday 11th November 2025
(9 months ago)
Grand CommitteeTobacco and Vapes Act 2026 Read Hansard Text Amendment Paper: HL Bill 89-IV(b) Amendment for Grand Committee (Supplementary to the Fourth Marshalled List) - (11 Nov 2025)
This text is a record of ministerial contributions to a debate held as part of the Tobacco and Vapes Act 2026 passage through Parliament.
In 1993, the House of Lords Pepper vs. Hart decision provided that statements made by Government Ministers may be taken as illustrative of legislative intent as to the interpretation of law.
This extract highlights statements made by Government Ministers along with contextual remarks by other members. The full debate can be read here
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
Earl Howe (Con)
My Lords, taken together, this group of amendments focuses on the question of how the new fixed penalty notice regime will operate in practice, how enforcement will be resourced and how local authorities will be supported in carrying out their duties under the Bill. Those are all important themes.
Amendment 74 in the name of my noble friend Lord Udny-Lister proposes a stepped approach to fixed penalty notices reflecting the number of times a person has been issued with a notice. That makes a lot of sense to me. The first time somebody commits an offence should surely be treated differently from the fourth or fifth time. I hope that enforcement officials will want to do this anyway, but such an approach would help strike a balance between giving people the benefit of the doubt—particularly as this will be, at the beginning, a complex new framework of rules—and ensuring that repeated non-compliance is dealt with properly.
That spirit of proportion and fairness also underpins Amendment 77, which would give local enforcement authorities the discretion to issue a formal warning notice to first-time offenders in lieu of a fixed penalty. I hope that the Minister will recognise the constructive intent behind both proposals.
I turn to the series of amendments tabled by my noble friend Lord Lansley, which seek to ensure that the proceeds of fixed penalty notices arising from offences under Clauses 17 and 20 are used to support trading standards teams directly, rather than being absorbed into the Consolidated Fund. Like my noble friend, I can see no real reason why the proceeds of fixed penalty notices arising from those breaches should not be treated in exactly the same way as the proceeds of other fixed penalty notices or fines. Trading standards officers are at the forefront of enforcing the Bill’s provisions.
There is, perhaps, a debate to be had about whether hypothecation along those lines creates an incentive for enforcement officers not to exercise the kind of discretion favoured by my noble friend Lord Udny-Lister. However—I admit that this is entirely guesswork on my part; I hope the Minister can illuminate us further— I do not think we should expect the yield from fixed penalty notices to be all that great in the scheme of things. This means that the incentive for overzealousness is likely to be more theoretical than real, so on balance I can identify with my noble friend’s argument that the resources generated by enforcement officers through their activity should be reinvested to strengthen their own capacity.
Amendments 81 and 83 from the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, would instead direct the revenue from fixed penalty notices towards local public health projects. This idea has considerable merit. There are some practical considerations because such a funding stream would, by definition, be inherently unreliable—and, in the context of a local authority budget, it would probably be very small beer—but, in any case, as the noble Baroness said, we hope that the number of penalty notices issued under this part of the Bill will start at a low level then decline even further as we go along.
Nevertheless, the noble Baroness asked an important question about how enforcement and public health objectives can be more closely aligned. I would be grateful if the Minister could set out how the Government see the relationship between enforcement activity and public health outcomes—specifically, how enforcement might be used not only to punish but to deter and to prevent the behaviours that lead to such offences in the first place. If the Minister can convincingly join the dots, as it were, I will have a better basis for assessing the merits of the noble Baroness’s amendment.
Finally, I turn to Amendment 204 tabled by my noble friend Lord Udny-Lister. This is a welcome and sensible amendment. It highlights the central role of local authorities in delivering and enforcing the provisions of the Bill. It is no secret that local authorities are already under significant financial strain, as has been said, and yet this Bill leans heavily on them for its success. I think it is fair that they are given certainty that the additional duties and regulations imposed on them will not leave them further out of pocket. With that, I look forward to what the Minister has to say.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Baroness Merron) (Lab)
My Lords, I am very grateful for the debate we have had on this group of amendments, which address the issues relating to penalties and enforcement of the Bill. Let me start with Amendments 74 and 77 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Udny-Lister, which relate to penalties. I understand the noble Lord’s interest in providing tougher deterrents for repeat offenders and in taking a proportionate approach to first-time offenders in relation to certain measures in the Bill. However, I feel that the Bill already strikes the balance in this regard and has taken this into account.
The noble Earl, Lord Howe, and the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, made some good points about fixed penalty notices and their literal value. I can agree with the noble Lord, Lord Johnson, that we have focused, as we did on an early group, on supporting those who carry out their business legally and correctly, which is most people. We want to make that possible and streamlined, and we want to crack down on the illegal. This brings us to the point about how in an ideal world we would not be seeing fixed penalty notices because everyone would be playing by the rules. That is an ambition, but what I am trying to say is that it will not be a good measure if we are issuing so many fixed penalty notices without a decline. I think that is what noble Lords are saying, and I certainly share that view. I think that is a very helpful and practical point about how we see the proceeds from fixed penalty notices.
When enforcing tobacco and vape legislation, local trading standards already take a proportionate approach. They choose appropriate action to achieve compliance, and in many cases this already involves the issuing of warning notices, which can be effective in achieving compliance without the need to escalate to harsher penalties. Enforcement authorities will continue to use warning notices where appropriate.
Amendment 74 would increase the values of fixed penalty notices introduced by the Bill, with the highest penalties for repeat offenders. I understand why the noble Lord is putting that forward. The Bill is introducing fixed penalty notices in England and Wales to complement our existing sanctions and to strengthen what is already available to trading standards officers. I know noble Lords are aware—I hope it is obvious, but it is worth restating—that we have been in close conversation and will continue to be so to ensure that any concerns or points that trading standards officers wish to raise in respect of the Bill are heard.
On the point about complementing existing sanctions and strengthening the toolkit that is already available, that is something that trading standards has called for, because it wants to be able to take swift action, as we all want it to, to fine rogue retailers that breach certain regulations. Setting the fine at £200 is believed to be proportionate and the most popular level for the penalty that came through in the 2023 consultation on creating a smoke-free generation. It is also in line with the current fixed penalty notices in Scotland and is similar to the situation in Northern Ireland.
Baroness Merron (Lab)
I thank the noble Lord for his almost intervention on that very point. I shall try to get the tense right here. As is standard government practice, a new burdens assessment will be conducted and shared with the Local Government Association. I can assure the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, that the additional net cost to local authorities in England will be considered in line with the new burdens doctrine. In summary, I hope that, for the reasons I have given—
Lord Lansley (Con)
None the less, the impact assessment, which I quoted, says:
“A new burdens assessment will be completed … ahead of the Bill being introduced”.
The Bill has been introduced so, clearly, the impact assessment was incorrect in that respect. I also reiterate to the Minister the request for her to say that the Government will be willing to look not only at the costs —there is an estimate of those—but at what the revenues from fixed penalty notices turn out to be, in case there is a gap between the cost of enforcement and the revenue from fixed penalty notices. Even if they continued to receive money into the Consolidated Fund, would the Government be willing to consider making additional Exchequer grants beyond the £10 million to meet any such gap?
Baroness Merron (Lab)
The noble Lord makes an interesting point. We will of course keep these matters under review. I will certainly look again at the impact assessment and at the point made by the noble Lord; I would be happy to write to him further, if needed, once I have had a look at all of that. On his specific point, we will keep an eye on the revenue, but, again— I am not sure that this is exactly the point that the noble Lord made; perhaps I can provide that bit of cover—in our earlier discussion, the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, and the noble Earl, Lord Howe, both acknowledged, as I did, that we are not seeking to get enough from fixed penalty notices to fund this. That is not our intention; in fact, we all hope that the revenue will decline as this Bill becomes increasingly successful in its impact. Let us also remember why we have this Bill: to introduce a smoke-free generation and drive down the demand for consumption. That changes the whole landscape. This is literally a generational change. So I hope that noble Lords will feel able not to press their amendments.
Baroness Merron (Lab)
My Lords, I am grateful for the contributions that have been made today. This has obviously brought a lot of interest to this group of amendments. Let me start by turning to Amendments 106, 108, 109, 112 and 156 to 159, which have been tabled by the noble Earl, Lord Lindsay. The effect of this would be to remove handmade cigars, pipe tobacco and nasal tobacco from the definition of tobacco products in Parts 1, 5 and 6 of the Bill.
One of the things that the noble Earl asked about was distinguishing between products that pose, as he described them, negative health risks and those which do not. It is probably helpful, in view of the comments made by the noble Earl, Lord Howe—I am glad to hear his acceptance of the health arguments—that I am very clear, because this has come up throughout today: all tobacco products are harmful. Tobacco smoke from cigars and pipes leads to the same types of diseases as cigarette smoke. Like other forms of tobacco, nasal tobacco contains chemicals that can cause cancer. I will develop this further as we continue. It is right that these products can be subject to the same restrictions as other tobacco products.
I have listened to the arguments about the scale of consumption and a number of other comments. However, I want to refer to the core of the Bill. The noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, spoke to this and it is important we remind ourselves, although I do not wish to stray into Second Reading territory, that the core of this is about the protection of young people. It is not about stopping existing smokers, whether of cigars or any other products. It is also about creating not just a culture but a practice of a smoke-free generation so that those who born on or after 1 January 2009 will not be able to legally purchase tobacco products, whatever they may be.
I want to emphasise the broad point about creating a culture in this country whereby young people, as the years go on, do not want to smoke, and those who currently smoke want to give it up. That is the important point to which I refer a lot of noble Lords. Again, the Bill does not prevent current tobacco users buying these products. I know a number of noble Lords have spoken about their own interest and consumption. The Bill does not affect that.
However, as has been referred to, exempting some tobacco products would create loopholes; the noble Lord, Lord Bethell, spoke to this point. I should add that, while we are talking about culture and about the protection of children and young people, this is also about the message that one sends—and not creating confusion. Many noble Lords are rightly pushing me on many issues to say, “Please do not cause confusion”. I absolutely agree with that; for me, legislation should be clear and should not create confusion.
Creating loopholes could permit the tobacco industry to continue to addict future generations to harmful and addictive products. There is evidence that young people are using these products: the most recent data shows that, in 2022, 2.4% of 16 to 19 year-olds in England used cigars and 4.4% used cigarillos, or little cigars. That was in the past 30 days.
A number of key points coalesce around these issues. The noble Earl, Lord Lindsay, and the noble Lord, Lord Strathcarron, queried the claims that I made at Second Reading about cigar use among young people; I referred to the University College London study. On the statistic that I used, which concerned cigar usage increasing, we are confident that there is an observed upward trend in non-cigarette product use among younger adults. That is supported by the UCL study alongside other findings, such as from the International Tobacco Control Policy Evaluation Project, which provides comparative data on tobacco use.
My noble friend Lord Mendelsohn asked about HMRC’s publication of statistics on cigars. The HMRC sales data shows that sales of other tobacco products have risen in recent years, with the latest official statistics indicating an increase in tobacco duty receipts for non-cigarette products between 2023 and 2025—even as overall cigarette sales have declined.
Lord Johnson of Lainston (Con)
It is a very interesting statistic that 2.4% of 14 to 16 year-olds have tried cigars in the last 30 days. That does not sound quite right; maybe it did not come out right. I would be grateful if we could have clarification on that piece of data.
Baroness Merron (Lab)
We can bandy all sorts of statistics around, but my noble friend is right that it is important to be absolutely accurate. I say to him that my reference was to sales of other tobacco products, which is a broader reference than to just cigars; I am happy to clarify that. I will also be pleased to write to the noble Lord, Lord Johnson, to be crystal-clear and to add anything else that I can in respect of the statistics.
The noble Lord, Lord Bethell, talked about the tobacco industry being incredibly—this is not a direct quote—innovative. He said that the industry is likely to adjust its business model as it has done before—for example, when the menthol flavour ban was introduced. That legislation did not cover cigars so, in response, as the noble Lord said, the industry produced cigarettes in a tobacco wrap, which are available in branded menthol packs of 10. Now, in the United States, a whole new category of small cigars has emerged to exploit the tax advantages over cigarettes, so I listen to the point that the noble Lord makes about the creativity and determination of the industry. I just ask noble Lords to hold that point in their head when we are talking about loopholes.
Lord Moylan (Con)
May I just say to the Minister that the tobacco industry, as normally understood and which is suspected of such nefarious innovation, is not involved in the business of hand-rolled cigars at all? The industry consists, on one end, of artisans working with their hands in Caribbean countries, and, on the other end, of small specialist shops and other distributors in the UK supplying these products to a very narrow customer base. They never go through the hands of BAT or any of the other big tobacco companies, so I think that the Minister needs to be a little more aware that the main topic of our discussion today is not one in which the tobacco industry, understood in its normal sense, has any interest.
Baroness Merron (Lab)
I should clarify that I was picking up on the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Bethell. I was saying that, when cigars were not included, this is what happened, as an example. I also refer noble Lords back to the point that I made some minutes ago about looking at the core of the Bill and loopholes; that was one such example.
I apologise to my noble friend Lord Mendelsohn: I will come on to the matter of impact assessments, and I should have mentioned that earlier.
The noble Earl, Lord Lindsay, has also tabled Amendments 102, 104, 105 and 201, all of which seek to require an impact assessment be published before any provisions in the Bill relating to cigars, pipe tobacco and nasal tobacco come into force. The impact assessment would look specifically at the impact on small businesses and specialist retailers, which a number of noble Lords mentioned. An impact assessment for the Tobacco and Vapes Bill was published on 5 November 2024, and it included assessment of small and micro-businesses. The Regulatory Policy Committee published an opinion on the impact assessment and provided a rating of “fit for purpose”; this included a green rating for amendments relating to small and micro-businesses.
Going back to the point about the tobacco industry, the noble Lord, Lord Bethell, asked whether the Government would engage with the industry to avoid such loopholes. In line with Article 5.3 of the World Health Organization’s Framework Convention on Tobacco Control, the Government will not accept, support or endorse partnerships and non-binding or non-enforceable agreements. There will not be any voluntary arrangement with the tobacco industry, nor with any entity or person working to further its interests. To summarise, then, the answer is no, but I am grateful that the noble Lord raised this issue.
The noble Lord, Lord Johnson, and other noble Lords raised the fact that the impact assessment notes that the Government are aware of a limited number of small and micro tobacco product manufacturers, based in the UK, which mainly produce tobacconist products and which may be affected by the policy, including through lost profits. However, as the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, observed in her comments, any impact on retailers will be gradual over time as the number of people captured by the smoke-free generation policy increases.
I accept exactly what the impact assessment says. I know that noble Lords do not welcome that, but we have been honest and transparent.
Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)
I thank the Minister for giving way. One point that was made was that the immediacy of the impact on retailers of cigars would come not from the generational nature of the ban but from the risk that there may be regulations requiring the packaging of handmade cigars to be altered, which would be impossible to achieve. That would have the effect of terminating their business immediately.
Baroness Merron (Lab)
I am glad to say to the noble Lord that I will come to the issue of packaging shortly.
The impact assessment showed that, as was raised in the debate, the policy has an estimated net benefit to society of over £30 billion over some 30 years, if we use 2024 prices. In addition, it is estimated that the policy will avoid over 30,000 deaths in England by 2075. I confirm that further impact assessments will be prepared in advance of secondary legislation.
Amendments 140A and 140B, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Johnson, seek to require the Secretary of State to commission and publish an independent report into the harms of hand-rolled cigars before any further packaging restrictions can be brought forward. I venture to say to noble Lords that, in my view, the health harms of cigars are well known and well established through independent research. Independent research on the effects of cigar smoking has found that, compared with non-smokers, cigar smokers have a greater risk of cancer, chronic obstructive pulmonary disease and cardiovascular disease. Even without inhalation, taking tobacco smoke into the mouth exposes the mouth, pharynx and oesophagus to toxic compounds.
Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-Afl)
Just to clarify, the aim of the Bill, as far as I understand it, is not to go through every single thing that any adult does in society and assess its harm. There may be some harm in smoking cigars, and there may well be some harm in, say, staying in this House until two in the morning voting. There might well be some harm in all sorts of things we do, but the aim of the Bill and what we are concerned about is, according to the Government, to stop young people smoking cigarettes. I am therefore confused about why any harm associated with these particular products would have any merit whatever in relation to the issues raised by noble Lords.
Baroness Merron (Lab)
The Bill is very focused on the smoke-free generation, but we also know that existing legislation and practice in this country are about not only encouraging people not to take up smoking but helping them to quit. That is the focus of the Bill, not every potential health harm.
The noble Baronesses, Lady Fox and Lady Hoey, the noble Lord, Lord Strathcarron, and other noble Lords referenced what is included, particularly for cigars. I had to remind myself—so I am happy to remind noble Lords—that most of the current legislation on tobacco control, such as the existing age of sale, health warnings and advertising restrictions, is already in place. So the regulation of cigars is not new.
Noble Lords asked about packaging restrictions for cigars. Again, this is not a new concept. Indeed, many countries already go further than the UK and require all tobacco products to be sold in plain packaging. That includes Australia, New Zealand, Canada and Ireland. I say to the noble Earl, Lord Lindsay, and the noble Lord, Lord Strathcarron, that any new restrictions will be subject to a consultation process and an accompanying impact assessment.
I move on to heated tobacco and will respond to amendments tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe. There is evidence of toxicity from heated tobacco, and the aerosol generated by heated tobacco also contains carcinogens. There will be a risk to the health of anyone using this product.
Clause 45 gives Ministers the ability to extend the restrictions under Part 1 to cover devices that allow the tobacco products to be consumed. That allows us to adapt to any new products that enter the market and prevent loopholes. I assure noble Lords that there is a duty to consult before making any regulations under this power. As I have mentioned many times before, those regulations will be subject to the affirmative procedure, ensuring an appropriate level of parliamentary scrutiny. Any additional requirements would be overly bureaucratic. Given the known harms of tobacco and the need to protect from any loopholes, I ask noble Lords not to press their amendments in this group.
The Earl of Lindsay (Con)
My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who contributed to this group of amendments. I am especially grateful to those who managed to pick up the issues that I had to drop in order to keep to time—such as hospitality and the letter from Caribbean ambassadors to the Prime Minister.
I will respond quickly on one or two issues. The first is definitions, which are really important. That is why this group of amendments seeks to define precisely what a handmade cigar is, for instance; we recognise that loopholes could be exploited. If, when we have reflected further on what has been said today, this comes back on Report, we will look again at just how tightly the definitions can be drawn, as we accept that there is scope for mischief otherwise.
I thank the Minister for the consideration she gave in the various points that she made. I continue to be concerned about the extent to which the UCL study has some use. Even the authors of that report have acknowledged the weaknesses in the methodology that they used. This lies behind the amendments about additional impact assessments. I think I heard the Minister say that, prior to secondary legislation being brought forward, there would be additional or further impact assessments. I welcome that in principle, but one of the amendments tabled said that there should be further impact assessments before the provisions of the Bill—not the secondary legislation but the provisions of the Bill—are applied to the three nominated categories. There is still considerable uncertainty about the exact risks and impacts of these three products.
It is easy to say that all tobacco products are potentially harmful. It is equally easy to say that for all alcohol, sugar et cetera. Those types of products are potentially harmful, but the one word that I used repeatedly in speaking to these amendments, which did not come up at all in the Minister’s response, was “proportionality”. We propose a proportionate approach to the availability of certain OTPs in future.
I am grateful for all the contributions and to the Minister for her response. I beg to withdraw my amendment.
Baroness Northover (LD)
My Lords, these amendments seek to mandate further consultations on measures in the Bill. Such things always sound very reasonable. However, it seems to us that the Government either have already consulted or intend to consult where needed. I would be more sympathetic if the consultation here was with public health experts, but the focus is particularly on those who would be selling tobacco. It is clearly very welcome—and it is something of a change from previous debates on tobacco—to hear from so many speakers in other groups that there is now wide- spread acceptance of the terrible damage tobacco does. I certainly welcome that.
One thing the industry is expert at is spreading alarm through the retail sector; they have done it at every stage of tobacco control. It is usually, “This measure will kill pubs or small shops”, and when that does not happen, they say, “Of course the last lot of regulation did not kill these areas, but this lot will”. However, I have no doubt that the alarm they create would feed back into such consultation.
There is a risk of overestimating the importance of tobacco to the retail sector and underestimating its impact on the wider economy. Tobacco is bad for the UK economy. Referring back to the points made by the noble Earl, Lord Lindsay, and the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, about evidence, there is plenty of evidence showing the impact of smoking. People who get ill from smoking do not need only healthcare, tobacco-induced illness means time off work, less productivity and suffering smoke-related lost earnings and unemployment. Smokers are more likely to die while still of working age. Smoking costs society in England at least £43 billion a year, which is far more than the £6.8 billion raised through tobacco taxes. Hopefully, that addresses some of the cost-benefit analysis that has just been referred to.
Even for retailers that sell tobacco products, tobacco is not a good deal and is certainly not essential for business vitality. Footfall from tobacco sales has decreased, I am pleased to say, by nearly 40% in the small retail outlets compared with less than a decade ago. We also know that the illicit trade, which needs to be tackled, has declined dramatically by almost 90% since 2000. Tobacco is very profitable for manufacturers, but less so for retailers. The Government need to work closely with the retail sector to ensure clear communication, engage with the public and support enforcement agencies to address any breaches in the law.
If there is to be more consultation, for my part, it needs to focus on those organisations which have to cope with those who have been damaged by tobacco: those in public health. As I say, however, we feel that we do not need to add this selective group of consultees.
Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)
My Lords, I will speak very briefly to my noble friend’s Amendment 114A. First, I apologise profusely for not being here in time to speak to my amendments in the last group. I feel doubly guilty about that because I am going to pick up on something the Minister said in answer to the fact I was not here.
With regard to heated tobacco products, I believe the Minister said that they are harmful. However, there is no conclusive evidence of this; as my noble friend Lord Jackson pointed out, they are a cessation product and therefore ought to be materially less harmful. The fact is that the WHO also acknowledges—or rather assumes—that they will be harmful, but it does not have any conclusive evidence to that point. Can the Minister elaborate a little on where that evidence comes from?
As regards Amendment 114C, I think we should continue to conduct impact assessments. I reject the Liberal argument, which seems, as far as I can ascertain, to be that you should not have a consultation with people you do not like because you might not like their answers. That does not strike me as much of a consultation.
I have little else to say, but I apologise again, particularly for picking up on the Minister, who did not have to answer my amendments—that is a bit of a cheap shot, and I apologise.
Earl Howe (Con)
My Lords, in Amendment 114A, my noble friend Lord Jackson of Peterborough rightly highlighted the need for any regulations in this part of the Bill to be underpinned by evidence drawn from the real-world experience of retailers, manufacturers and consumers. It is a point very well made, and I hope that, even if the Minister has an issue about consulting tobacco manufacturers, which I expect she will say she does, she will see the good sense of consulting others in the supply chain to make sure that the regulations stand the best chance of being fit for purpose and avoid unintended adverse consequences.
My noble friend Lord Jackson focused much of his speech on heated tobacco, as did my noble friend Lord Sharpe of Epsom just now. One of the other main concerns about regulation, which we have already touched on in an earlier debate, is the cost of the licence fee for a small business alongside the administrative burden for existing businesses to transition across to the new system. It is important that local authorities allow enough time for applications to be considered and processed and for the operational challenges faced by retailers implementing the system to be addressed. Both retailers and consumers need to be made aware of the new regulatory regime well before it goes live.
The noble Baroness, Lady Fox, amplified that proposal in her Amendment 114C by focusing specifically on the socioeconomic impact of the generational ban on retailers. She is absolutely right to be concerned about that, but I would like to talk about a different strand of the argument from that which she focused on.
In the consultation exercise conducted two years ago by the last Government, the Association of Convenience Stores, which represents more than 50,000 retail outlets across the UK, did not object to the generational ban as a policy. However, when the current Government published this Bill, shop owners expressed immediate concern about the powers contained in it around the licensing system. The biggest worry for them is the power given to a local authority to take a decision to refuse the granting of a licence to sell tobacco and vapes based on the density of other businesses operating in a specific area, or because of that business’s proximity to a school.
We debated this issue briefly last week, but the worry persists on what the effect of these provisions will be. First and foremost, how will this affect existing businesses? Might a well-established retailer selling tobacco and vapes suddenly find that it can no longer do so? Might a new business wishing to set up in a particular area be denied that ability? The ACS has rightly asked what the evidential framework will be for deciding that the density of outlets is too high. How will the threshold be set, and how can fairness be achieved between businesses in an urban area compared to those located in rural areas? Will small shops be treated in the same way as large shops? We simply do not have answers to those questions—and they are questions that are particularly pertinent to small, family-run businesses operating on sometimes tight margins. When will guidance be published to provide the answers? If the Minister cannot reply in detail today, I shall be very grateful if she would do so in writing between now and Report.
Finally, my noble friend Lord Johnson of Lainston has raised an important issue around the need for transitional provisions covering specialist tobacconists located in Northern Ireland. We will be debating specialist tobacconists more broadly in a later group of amendments, and I do not propose to anticipate that debate now. However, in the light of what my noble friend has said, it would be helpful to hear from the Minister whether she agrees that there is a strong case for what are commonly called grandfather rights for these particular specialist outlets.
Baroness Merron (Lab)
I am most grateful to noble Lords for this group of amendments and the contributions to the debate. I am grateful for the support of the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, and thank her for that.
The noble Lord, Lord Jackson, who has tabled the amendment, and the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, who has tabled Amendment 114C, I hope will be pleased to hear that I absolutely agree with the premise of their amendments. I have been consistent on this. It is crucial that the Government carefully consider the impact of any legislation and carry out appropriate consultation. That is why in 2023, a UK-wide consultation, which the noble Earl, Lord Howe, referred to, was published on creating a smoke-free generation. It is also why this Government, as I mentioned in the earlier group, completed and published an impact assessment for the Bill, which was deemed fit for purpose by the Regulatory Policy Committee, and this included the impact that this policy will have on retailers. Indeed, that is important.
However, I can also confirm that we will consult, in compliance with our statutory obligations under this Bill, before making regulations under Part 1 implementing significant policy changes. For example, Clauses 13 and 14, relating to the in-store displays of relevant products, already contain a duty to consult, and impact assessments will be conducted for future regulations, as required. I also want to reassure noble Lords, as I have done previously, that we regularly engage with retailers and enforcement agencies, and remain committed to supporting retailers in the implementation of new requirements. We will, as requested, provide appropriate guidance to aid this transition.
The noble Lords, Lord Jackson and Lord Sharpe, raised questions about heated tobacco being in scope. To that I say that laboratory studies show evidence of toxicity from heated tobacco. As I mentioned in the previous group, like other forms of tobacco, the aerosol generated by heated tobacco devices contains carcinogenic compounds. There is very limited evidence that this is effective for smoking cessation. I am glad to hear of the interest in smoking cessation but, clearly, we have other products that are evidenced as working rather more definitely.
The noble Lord, Lord Jackson, and the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, raised points about the illicit market. Let me say to that point that history shows that when we have introduced targeted tobacco control measures, they have had a positive impact on tackling the problems of illicit tobacco. For example, when the age of sale was raised from 16 to 18 in 2007, the number of illicit cigarettes consumed fell by 25% from 10 billion in 2005-6 to 7.5 billion in 2007-8. Most of the evidence that suggests that heated tobacco products are somehow less harmful than smoke tobacco is not independent and often comes from the manufacturers themselves.
Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-Afl)
We have already had a group on illicit trade so I do not want to rehearse all of that. I simply wanted to say that what is happening in local communities is very different to the statistical evidence that keeps being put here. That is why I referred to the BBC investigation. In certain towns—working-class areas, basically—there is a huge problem with these products being sold openly without any authorities even intervening, which is what the BBC exposed. I am suggesting that one of the things that shopkeepers are worried about is that the generational ban is going to lead to even more of that. I know that they agree with the generational ban, but maybe the Government and the Minister might look at some of the new lived-experience evidence that is coming through at the moment in particular areas, rather than this just being a paper exercise.
Baroness Merron (Lab)
I assure the noble Baroness that there is nothing paper about the exercise that we are undertaking, but I accept her point and I have on previous groups. This is not one size fits all; the issue manifests itself in different ways. I wanted to present an overall national position, but I of course understand. That is why we are looking at regulations and why we have a call for evidence, consultations and an impact assessment, so that we do not uniformly treat all areas the same. It is important that we remind ourselves, as I have done repeatedly, that tobacco is a deadly addiction. Stopping children from starting to smoke is the easiest way to reduce smoking rates, and that is at the core of the Bill.
Lord Jackson of Peterborough (Con)
Will the Minister give way? I am trying to be helpful. As the Minister has made some quite fair and emphatic comments about the toxicity of heated tobacco and its lack of efficacy in smoking cessation, would she be so kind as to put that in writing to me in order for members of the Committee to consider that as we go forward in the Bill?
Baroness Merron (Lab)
I will be happy to.
On Amendments 135A and 136A, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Johnson, health is a devolved matter, as noble Lords are aware, so the implementation of retail licensing in Northern Ireland is ultimately a matter for the Department of Health in Northern Ireland. However, it is a shared view that it is important that details of our respective retail licensing schemes are informed by adequate consultation with all relevant stakeholders. That is why, in collaboration with the devolved Governments, we have launched a call for evidence that asks detailed questions about a number of matters that noble Lords have rightly raised. It is open until 3 December and asks detailed questions about the implementation of retail licensing, among other topics. I can say to the noble Earl, Lord Howe, and the noble Lord, Lord Johnson, that it asks how a retail licensing scheme can be implemented effectively. We encourage feedback on how existing businesses should be treated specifically, and I hope that responses will come forward.
I remind noble Lords that following the call for evidence there will be a consultation, so there is plenty of opportunity to consider all the important points that have been raised today. For example, we will ask whether there should be any exemptions from needing a licence and whether factors such as restrictions on the location and density of retailers should be features of the scheme. We believe it is important that such decisions are informed by expert views, and it would not be right to prejudge the evidence that we receive by putting in place different rules for one particular type of business, as the amendment suggests.
The absence of a retail licensing scheme, as I have spoken to on previous groups, represents a major gap in the enforcement of tobacco and vape legislation. All tobacco products are harmful, and it is right that we ensure that those selling the products are following the rules and acting responsibly. A retail licensing scheme will help to deter those who fail to do so, and I know all noble Lords are concerned to do that. With that, I hope noble Lords will be good enough not to press their amendments.
Lord Jackson of Peterborough (Con)
I thank all noble Lords who took part in this debate on my amendment. I particularly thank the noble Baroness, Lady Fox of Buckley—it goes without saying that of course I support her Amendment 114C—and my noble friend Lord Sharpe of Epsom. This debate and the previous group have shown that it is quite difficult to properly launch a generational ban in a monolithic way without disaggregating the different products, which are discrete products.
I fear that the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, did not actually read the amendment, because it specifically says it is not just for the benefit of retailers and manufacturers. Subsection (1)(d) specifically mentions
“any other persons that the Secretary of State considers appropriate to consult”,
which would include health bodies and charities. Subsection (2) says:
“Consultation under this section must include a call for evidence”,
which, presumably, the latter would also avail themselves of. These are wide ranging and permissive powers of consultation, and I hope she might reconsider when we come back on Report.
We have had a good debate on this issue, given that we did not have a specific heated tobacco product amendment per se. With the proviso that the Minister has given me an undertaking to provide the data on the efficacy of heated tobacco products, and a very straightforward undertaking to do more consultation on these key areas, I am happy to withdraw this amendment.
Thursday 13th November 2025
(8 months, 4 weeks ago)
Grand CommitteeTobacco and Vapes Act 2026 Read Hansard Text Amendment Paper: HL Bill 89-V(a) Amendment for Grand Committee (Supplementary to the Fifth Marshalled List) - (12 Nov 2025)
This text is a record of ministerial contributions to a debate held as part of the Tobacco and Vapes Act 2026 passage through Parliament.
In 1993, the House of Lords Pepper vs. Hart decision provided that statements made by Government Ministers may be taken as illustrative of legislative intent as to the interpretation of law.
This extract highlights statements made by Government Ministers along with contextual remarks by other members. The full debate can be read here
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Baroness Merron) (Lab)
My Lords, I am most grateful for the discussion that we have had today on this group of amendments.
Let me start by turning to Amendment 189 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Kamall, which would require the Secretary of State to publish a review; it picks up on the points that the noble Earl, Lord Howe, just made. I can say, as I have said on previous days in Committee, that the Government will assess the implementation of the Act. This is completely consistent with best practice for primary legislation and for measures implemented by secondary legislation; the department will, of course, publish post-implementation reviews as appropriate.
Similarly, I turn to Amendments 195 and 196 in the name of the noble Earl, Lord Russell, which would require the Secretary of State to publish two reviews on the operational impact of the Bill. These would need to be published when the first group of individuals impacted by the smoke-free generation policy turned 21, then 25. I hope that the noble Earl will be pleased to hear that I am glad to agree with at least the principles behind the amendments. It is crucial that the Government review the impact of any legislation—we are keen to do so—but we need adequate time for policies to be implemented and for their impact to be realised before undertaking a review. As I have said, we have discussed this matter at some length previously.
I agree with noble Lords that we must monitor the effectiveness of our policies in reducing smoking rates and narrowing health inequalities. We have good data on smoking prevalence and differences between groups through sources such as the ONS annual population survey. Also, the department actively monitors uptake and outcomes of our smoking cessation programmes through NHS England data. This allows us to adapt and target our interventions. It also demonstrates how these services can contribute significantly to reducing smoking and addressing health inequalities. We will continue to monitor this data closely as measures are brought in by the Bill. I refer the noble Earl, Lord Russell, to HMRC estimates on the size of the illicit market. These estimates are made through tobacco duty gap estimates. We will continue to monitor data on the illicit market following the introduction of new policies in this Bill.
Amendment 216, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Murray, would mean that large parts of the Bill, including age-of-sale and sponsorship provisions, would expire after five years. Also, to avoid the expiry of provisions, it would require the Secretary of State to consult on and lay new regulations each year, and that any regulations made under the Bill regarding packaging and displays would also expire after five years. We had a long debate on the very important matter of impact assessment earlier in Committee. I will not repeat the points that I made there.
However, as noble Lords have heard throughout this debate, smoking is the number one preventable cause of death, disability and ill-health, costing our society some £21.3 billion every year in England alone. I also remind the Committee that this landmark legislation will be the biggest public health intervention in a generation. Our intention is to protect children from harm and break the cycle of addiction and disadvantage. The amendment would mean that large parts of the legislation would automatically cease after five years, and at one-year intervals following that. That could result in gaps in the law, creating legal uncertainty for businesses and consumers alike, and leading to harmful and highly addictive products becoming widely accessible.
Turning to Amendment 200, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Hoey, unfortunately I will disappoint her by repeating what I said at Second Reading—which she faithfully quoted—and which I have also said on previous days in Committee. The Government are content that measures in the Bill which apply to Northern Ireland are consistent with the obligations under the Windsor Framework. On the broader sovereignty points raised by the noble Baroness, the noble Lords, Lord Johnson and Lord Dodds, and the noble Earl, Lord Howe, I undertake to write to them about these important matters. However, we are concerned that this amendment would put us in breach of international law. Although I am repeating myself, it is important to say that the Government’s position remains that the Bill will apply across the United Kingdom. It has been developed in partnership with the Scottish and Welsh Governments and the Northern Ireland Executive.
The noble Baroness, Lady Hoey, also tabled Amendments 114B, 138A and 201A. While I am sure that I do not need to reiterate this to noble Lords present, I hope the Committee will forgive me for reminding us all about the harms of tobacco. In Northern Ireland, the Department of Health reports that tobacco claims around 2,100 deaths per year. That is why all four nations are committed to creating a smoke-free generation, so that anyone born on or after 1 January 2009 will never be legally sold tobacco products. As others have done earlier in the Committee, the noble Baroness raised the point about countries having different age restrictions in respect of sale. It is the case that all countries, not just those making up the United Kingdom, have different age restrictions. As I have outlined, our aim in the Bill is to protect future generations and, specifically, to have a complete change of culture in how smoking is regarded, while breaking that cycle of disadvantage and addiction.
In response to the noble Lord, Lord Murray, and the noble Baroness, Lady Hoey, again, I am aware that I am repeating myself, but it is important to do so. The Government consider that in drafting the Bill, they have considered all their domestic and international obligations. We know the tobacco industry has a history of arguing that EU law prevents the adoption of tobacco control measures. That is a very common tactic in disrupting tobacco control legislation.
I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, for the point she made about legal opinions. Legal opinions indeed abound, and I understand why noble Lords are raising them, but it is not for me to engage in discussion about their merits or otherwise.
I can confirm that we expect the Bill to complete its passage within this parliamentary Session. There has been reference to the TRIS system, and I should emphasise that it is not an approval process, but I can confirm the point about the progress of the Bill. I hope that noble Lords will feel able to withdraw or not press their amendments.
Baroness Hoey (Non-Afl)
I thank the Minister for her response. I am not sure that I got a reply on the legal aspects. This is not about how terrible smoking is in Northern Ireland; it is about whether we can have the Bill in Northern Ireland. The Minister, while being very gentle, attempted to answer some of the points about the legal situation. It is absolutely clear that we need an official government legal opinion. If we cannot even get the Attorney-General, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hermer, to respond to a letter and say something, what is the point?
I am really grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Murray, for reminding me that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hermer, has the position of Advocate-General for Northern Ireland. I looked up what his role is, and it says he is the chief legal adviser to the Government of the United Kingdom on Northern Ireland law, yet he seems not to want to talk about this. I genuinely find it amazing. I just hope that the Minister will take this issue back. I presume that she has seen the legal opinion by the noble John Larkin, KC—he should be noble but he is not. Has she read his legal opinion?
Baroness Merron (Lab)
My Lords, I have not taken a legal eye to it because I do not have a legal eye to do so. I would not wish to inflate my legal expertise in this regard; it is a matter for my colleagues to do that.
Baroness Hoey (Non-Afl)
I fully understand that the Minister does not want to do that. However, I would have thought that, if the Attorney-General is telling me that I have to refer to her on this, he would at least have sent her the document.
Baroness Merron (Lab)
I thank the noble Baroness. To reiterate what I said at the beginning, I am very pleased to write to noble Lords about the broader points being raised. I will of course attend to the points that the noble Baroness has raised.
Earl Howe (Con)
My Lords, through these amendments my noble friend has issued a challenge to the Government which I think is extremely welcome. The challenge is to explain why the objectives the Government are seeking to achieve through Clauses 89 and 93 are achievable only via the heavy hand of prescriptive regulation rather than by less burdensome means. Is there a role for guidance as a substitute for regulation, and might there be merit in challenging manufacturers and others in the supply chain to take direct responsibility for the design of their packaging within certain parameters?
The Minister will probably say when it comes to the tobacco giants—whose ways, alas, we know from of old—that that kind of aspiration is a somewhat forlorn hope. But what if regulation, instead of being enacted willy-nilly, were used by the Government as a sword of Damocles hanging over the various arms of industry? Has anyone actually spoken to manufacturers of nicotine products or vapes to see whether they would entertain the idea of avoiding regulation by agreeing a responsibility deal with the Government whereby, in designing their packaging, they did so ethically, in a way that avoided including imagery of obvious appeal to young people, or colours and fonts that serve to glamourise the product contained inside? That idea sounds a whole lot less complicated than drafting regulations in inevitably minute detail, which could easily become quite a difficult exercise. A certain amount of commercial freedom would thereby be retained by manufacturers, along with some scope for market competition, which would be another incentive for playing by the agreed rules.
My noble friend’s amendments return us to themes we have touched on already during Committee: questions of proportionality, consultation and the need to ensure that the framework we create is both evidence-based and appropriately targeted. I am particularly supportive of Amendment 140E, which again highlights the importance of engaging with retailers and manufacturers before new provisions are introduced. It is an amendment which reminds us that we are not dealing with a single homogenous group of products. There is a wide spectrum here, from combustible cigarettes through to heated tobacco, vapes and other nicotine products, and as each of them carries a different level of relative harm, those differences should be recognised, both in consultation and in how the law ultimately treats each one of those products.
I therefore hope that the Government will give serious consideration to the intent behind these amendments, and that the Minister can set out how the Government are meeting the challenge my noble friend has issued: the need to explore whether we can achieve a set of desired ends by the least burdensome route, by proper engagement with stakeholders and by recognising the distinctions between products that the Bill has chosen—rather too often, I am afraid—to lump together.
Baroness Merron (Lab)
My Lords, I start by thanking the noble Lord, Lord Udny-Lister, for bringing these amendments forward, and I thank all noble Lords for their contributions today.
I should start by providing clarification that I hope will be helpful to the Committee. The Secretary of State is already able to issue guidance in these areas. However—I particularly make this point to the noble Earl, Lord Howe, who I listened to closely—here is the problem. Guidance is not enforceable, as he is aware. Instead, we would have a voluntary system that industry could choose whether to comply with. I am also grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, for her support in the arguments I am about to make.
The reality is that industry is already able to choose to package its products in a way that does not appeal to children; it could already be doing that now. There are some companies that are to be credited for following this line of not appealing to children, but the fact is, as the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, said, that we see far too many vapes marketed alongside cartoons and other imagery that can only be described as focused on young people. It is therefore appropriate and necessary for the power to make regulations to remain.
The noble Lord, Lord Udny-Lister, referred to heated tobacco. We had an extensive debate on the tobacco products in scope, including heated tobacco, on a previous day in Committee, so I will not take up any more of the Committee’s time on that.
As for consultation, Clause 109 already requires the Secretary of State to consult before making any regulations in Part 5. I can assure the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, that we intend to consult on introducing restrictions on tobacco, vaping, which she spoke of, and nicotine product packaging as soon as possible next year. The consultation will be open to all, and we will listen very carefully to the views and evidence put forward by stakeholders.
Amendment 147B is also not needed. Clause 93, on non-compliant images, is intended to stop images being published of products that do not meet the packaging and product design requirements that could be specified under Clauses 89 and 90 respectively. Those clauses already allow the Secretary of State to restrict the use of imagery such as cartoons and images that would appeal to young people. There is therefore no need to amend Clause 93, on non-compliant images. I hope that the noble Lord feels able to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Udny-Lister (Con)
I thank everybody who has taken part in this debate. I shall return to this argument in a later group, so I will leave it at that and beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Baroness Merron (Lab)
My Lords, I am most grateful to noble Lords who tabled amendments in this group. I thank all noble Lords for their contributions to the debate.
I am sorry to hear that the noble Lord, Lord Mott, is unwell, and I am sure we all wish him well. On his Amendment 142, which was moved by the noble Lord, Lord Udny-Lister, restrictions currently set a 2-millilitre tank size limit, and a 10-milliletre refill tank size limit for vaping products. Over recent years, manufacturers have developed devices where multiple refill tanks are attached to the device itself. I assure the noble Earl, Lord Howe, and other noble Lords that the Bill already contains powers that allow us to regulate the nature and amount of substance that may be released into the body of a person using a relevant product, which includes vaping devices and the emissions released by such products. This includes restricting not only the nicotine in the tank but the nicotine that can be emitted in the vapour.
My next point is key to a number of points made in the helpful debate today: on 8 October we launched a call for evidence, which runs until 3 December. That, to me, is crucial in informing the development of future regulations under the Bill, which noble Lords are correctly asking for. We are seeking evidence to ensure that all nicotine-containing products have safe and appropriate levels of nicotine.
I understand the spirit in which Amendment 144, spoken to by the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, and Amendment 146, spoken to by the noble Earl, Lord Russell, have been tabled and the points that were made. I also heard clearly the concerns expressed by the noble Baroness, Lady Fox. We agree that descriptions of flavours are part of the appeal of vapes to children. The Bill allows us to regulate flavour descriptors. However, evidence suggests that children are attracted to the fruit and sweet flavours of vapes, both in their taste and smell, as well as how they are described.
Lord Lansley (Con)
Can the Minister tell me exactly where in the Bill the power to regulate flavour descriptors is to be found?
Baroness Merron (Lab)
I am sure that I will be able to do that, if the noble Lord will allow me to continue in the meantime.
What we do not yet know is the long-term harms of certain ingredients or flavours. This is why we need to be able to limit the flavours themselves, with the ability to respond to emerging evidence or scientific advances in the future, as well as how flavours are described. I can refer the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, on the point that he raised to Clause 91, which says:
“The Secretary of State may by regulations make provision about—”
et cetera. I hope that will be helpful to him.
I understand the concerns that were raised about how restrictions on flavours can impact former smokers who have switched to vaping. We absolutely recognise that vape flavours are an important consideration for adult smokers, and we will carefully consider restrictions to avoid any unintended consequences for those who seek to quit smoking. Our aims for future regulations on vape flavours, as well as for the wider regulations on vapes, are to reduce the appeal of vapes to young people while ensuring that they remain a viable quit aid for adult smokers. I heard the concern of the noble Earl, Lord Russell, about ensuring that the legislation is right. I am sure that all noble Lords share that view.
The published call for evidence includes flavours of tobacco, vape and nicotine products, to ensure that we are considering the best available evidence. We will also review the approaches taken by other countries, to learn the lessons and to consider whether they are appropriate for the UK. I give an assurance, as I have done before, that we will then consult on specific proposals before making regulations.
On the point about international comparisons—the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, raised a certain aspect of them—there are varied determinations on what a flavour is. For example, in the Netherlands, there is a specified list, and, in Finland, there is a restriction on all characterising flavours. That is why the call for evidence and the subsequent consultation are so important.
Lord Moylan (Con)
The Minister refers to “characterising flavours” in Finland. That sounds to me like a descriptor, rather than anything about the composition. I know that these appear to be subtle distinctions but they are not—how something tastes and how it is described are two very different things. The question of characterisation seems to fall into the same confusion that the Government are in.
Perhaps this is an appropriate moment, so that I do not interrupt again later, to add that the confusion is evidenced by what my noble friend Lord Lansley and I have found in reviewing Clause 91; I am not very good at these things, but my noble friend is a former Secretary of State for Health and, as I have seen on many occasions since joining your Lordships’ House, a consummate legal draftsman. I suggest that the Minister’s support team does the same, because there is absolutely nothing in the clause that does what the Minister thinks it does. There is no reference to the description of flavours. There is reference to the flavour itself and to determining what the flavour is, but there is nothing about descriptors in that clause. I would have felt rather foolish tabling an amendment to the clause if the content of my amendment was already there.
Baroness Merron (Lab)
Perhaps I might assist by referring noble Lords to Clause 89, which obviously precedes Clause 91 and covers descriptors. I am very happy to review the points made by noble Lords in this regard; I will of course write to them in order to provide clarity.
Earl Russell (LD)
I apologise but I, too, want to make a brief point. I welcome the fact that the Government are conducting a review and collecting evidence; that is good. I hope that those things will be used to make fundamental, good policy. However, there is a tension here because we could have a situation where flavours are appealing both to children, whom we do not want to take up vaping, and to ex-smokers, whom we do not want to go back to smoking because we have taken flavours away. What I have not heard the Minister say is that there will be an examination of price in that gathering of evidence. Doing more to raise the price of vapes, keeping them out of the territory of pocket money, is important in making sure that young children do not get access to these products. I encourage the Government to include that in their call for evidence.
Baroness Merron (Lab)
I thank noble Lords. On that last point, made by the noble Earl, Lord Russell, respectfully, I feel that we have covered that area at considerable length. I understand how strongly he feels about it.
On the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, currently, it is the MHRA that regulates vapes.
More broadly, I reiterate that I will be pleased to write to noble Lords to clarify still further what I have said. Overall, I emphasise that what noble Lords are raising in general are the exact reasons why we have a call for evidence and why we will consult. It is not the right moment to be categoric, but I take the point about noble Lords being concerned about what is permitted in the Bill. On that point, I will be very pleased to write.
Lord Moylan (Con)
I say again that my noble friend Lord Lansley and I have scanned Clause 89 as far as we can. It appears to give the power to regulate almost anything to do with the packaging of vapes other than the description of what is inside it. Brand differentiators, but not flavour differentiators, are covered—that is,
“the markings on packaging (including the use of branding, trademarks or logos)”—
but a mango is not a brand, trademark or logo. The Minister is doughtily defending the text that has been given to her, but it deserves more careful thought before Report. I am grateful that she will write.
Baroness Merron (Lab)
I agree that it needs more careful thought, which is exactly why, rather than discussing the merits of a mango, a raspberry or any other matter, I will be pleased to look at the points about which noble Lords are concerned; I want to assist in this regard. I am grateful for the reflections of noble Lords in looking at the Bill, as I have done. However, the best thing at this stage would be to commit this to writing.
I hope that noble Lords feel able to withdraw or not move their amendments.
Earl Howe (Con)
My Lords, I cannot put it better than the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, has just done in relation to the recommendations about Allen Carr’s Easyway, which has been warmly endorsed by NICE in its guidelines. This is one of the four interventions that NICE recommends. The content of those guidelines should now be underlined for NHS smoking cessation clinics, to ensure that, exactly as the noble Baroness said, there is an option for those who do not want to remain addicted to nicotine when they elect to stop smoking.
I hope that the Minister will take this amendment away with her; I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Moylan for raising this issue. I say to him that there is probably another dimension to his amendment, if one takes literally the wording around what constitutes an appropriate level of nicotine in vapes. We have heard from the Minister that there is a power to regulate this in the Bill. However, again, we have a tension here: on the one hand, there are obvious arguments in favour of limiting the strength of nicotine in vapes that are used recreationally; on the other hand, we want vape dosages of nicotine to be strong enough to satisfy the addictive craving of someone who is hooked on smoking tobacco and who does not wish to go down the Allen Carr route. If you make the dosage too weak, the patient will simply revert to their former harmful habits.
My noble friend’s amendment is also useful in the sense that it would enable us to hear from the Minister how the Government propose to reconcile those dual objectives and the potential difficulties that face policymakers in attempting to regulate nicotine strengths. This short debate has brought us to an interesting point in the smoking cessation arguments. I look forward to what the Minister has to say.
Baroness Merron (Lab)
I thank the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, for bringing forward Amendment 147 and thank noble Lords for their reflections on this amendment.
I start by giving the reassurance that the Bill will allow the Secretary of State to continue making provisions about the amount and nature of substances that may be released into the body by vaping and nicotine products. Regulations made under this power will apply to products sold on the market and to those provided through stop smoking services. We will consult before making regulations and will consider restrictions carefully to avoid any unintended consequences on smoking cessation, which I know is of great concern to noble Lords.
Baroness Merron (Lab)
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Udny-Lister, for bringing forward these amendments in Committee. I am also grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, for observing that the industry has failed to self-regulate—a view that I share.
Amendments 148B, 148D and 148E seek to impose specific requirements so that regulations pertaining to the testing, study and standard of products and their ingredients take into account the potential to reduce harms, relative to smoking. I am sympathetic to the need to ensure that regulations recognise that vapes and nicotine products are less harmful than tobacco products. As we have discussed a number of times, ensuring that vapes remain an accessible smoking cessation tool has been, and absolutely continues to be, a key consideration in the development of this Bill and future regulations. I assure the noble Lord, Lord Udny-Lister, that the use of powers under Part 5 of the Bill is subject to consultation, to which the industry is of course welcome to respond.
However, the purpose of the powers in relation to product standards, testing and studies pertains to compliance with product standards and safety. As I believe the noble Earl, Lord Howe, said, it is critical that the public can trust that the products on the market are what they say they are and do not pose a risk to health—and that quick action can be taken if they do. I am sure the noble Lord would agree that, for example, vapes on the market must not contain faulty or illicit elements and that if they do, whether they are safer than cigarettes is not the critical issue.
Amendments 148A to 148E speak to the ongoing call for evidence that we launched in October to support the policy development of regulations to be laid under the Bill. This includes seeking evidence on elements of the new product registration scheme, as I have referred to, including on the role of the responsible person and who that responsible person might be. The future registration system will play an important part in enforcing our rules on product requirements to ensure the consumer safety that noble Lords seek, while improving retailer confidence in the products that they are selling, which is also important. We want to hear the views of respondents and consider those carefully before bringing forward more detailed policy proposals. I hope the Committee understands that I do not want to pre-empt the call for evidence and how future consultation might pan out before deciding on the right approach. We need that call for evidence to be met and for the consultation to take place.
On Amendment 149A, I understand the noble Lord’s intention. I can reassure him that any sub-delegation to persons must be set out in regulations. As I mentioned, there is a statutory duty to consult on any regulations made under Part 5 of the Bill. I also remind noble Lords that regulations will be subject to the affirmative procedure, meaning that Parliament will have an opportunity to consider any sub-delegation before the regulations take legal effect.
The noble Earl, Lord Howe, asked about the Government’s stance on whether research on the harms of products is sufficiently robust. We obviously seek that robustness and continue to monitor the evidence before us. Perhaps most importantly, our commitment to research on harms is crucial. For example, the department has commissioned significant pieces of research into vaping and nicotine products through NIHR. Notably, this includes a living evidence map bringing together international evidence on vapes and nicotine products, including their health harms, trends in use and emerging evidence on cessation. However, I share his interest in ensuring that research keeps up with what we seek to achieve, and we are committed to doing so.
With that, I hope that the noble Lord can withdraw his amendment.
Earl Howe (Con)
That is a very helpful clarification; I am grateful to my noble friend. There is a good parallel with the Portman Group, which is recognised, as he said, in statute and has a well-understood relationship with government. That is an appropriate parallel for the Government to consider.
In the same vein, Amendment 198, tabled by my noble friend Lord Moylan and the noble Baroness, Lady Fox of Buckley, seeks to establish an industry forum. The bringing together of Ministers, supply chain representatives and officials would ensure that policies are based on not only principle but real-world experience. I return to the theme of evidence-based policy and there is a parallel here too. As the Minister knows, there are already industry forums for pharmaceuticals and for medical technology, each of which I used to chair as a Minister. Each provides a mechanism for government and officials to engage with those who work day-to-day in the vape and nicotine industries. For the vaping and nicotine industries, it would be a very effective way of making sure that the real world was reflected in future policy-making.
Baroness Merron (Lab)
I thank the noble Lords, Lord Lansley and Lord Moylan, for tabling these amendments, and other noble Lords for their considerations today.
Turning first to Amendments 154 and 154A, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, I understand the noble Lord’s intention and the comments that he and the noble Earl, Lord Howe, made. I heard the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, clarify that he is talking about co-regulation. I understand his intent, but as I have said on a number of occasions—other noble Lords, including the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, have supported this—the industry has failed to self-regulate. Vapes are branded and advertised to appeal to children and rates have more than doubled in the last five years, with one in five 11 to 17 year-olds having tried vaping.
In addition to Part 5, the requirements set out in regulations are the best way to stop future generations from becoming hooked on nicotine. As I have previously said, we will consult on regulations where they are made under Part 5. The vaping industry and other bodies are welcome to respond to this consultation. We will return to advertising in more detail when we reach a later group, but despite existing restrictions on vape advertisements and the opportunities that the industry has had to self-regulate, evidence shows that vape advertising continues to appeal to young people. It is unacceptable that, in too many cases, vapes are being deliberately promoted and advertised to children.
Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-Afl)
I keep hearing that the evidence shows that the advertising is appealing to children. Can the Minister send me details of that evidence, because I cannot find it? I have seen lobbying material from organisations that do not like vaping but no evidence as such.
Baroness Merron (Lab)
I will of course be happy to do that for the noble Baroness.
The noble Lord’s amendment also seeks to allow a self-regulatory body to exercise functions established in regulations under Parts 5 and 6. I point out that Clause 104 already provides for legislative sub-delegation where required. It allows the Secretary of State, when making regulations under Part 5, to delegate functions to other people, which will allow decisions to be made by the most appropriate body. For example, it may be appropriate to delegate functions under Clause 98 on testing, so that a body with specific technical expertise—the noble Earl, Lord Howe, referred to this—can carry out tests on products and determine whether they comply with product requirements.
Lord Moylan (Con)
May I just gently correct the Minister? I did not ask why the Government adhered to their international obligations; I understand why a Government will, in general, want to adhere to their international obligations. The dilemma I raised was why the Government would continue to adhere to international obligations when the practical necessities of engaging with the industry would suggest that there is a case here for not doing so. It would be legal in domestic terms not to do so; indeed, this amendment would give sufficient warrant to anyone who doubted it would be legal not to do so. The question is, in a sense: how long will the Government go on ignoring reality because they prefer to adhere to a non-binding international obligation?
Baroness Merron (Lab)
I appreciate the clarification from the noble Lord and am grateful for his question. In my language, it does not give us a problem to abide by these obligations; they chime with our experience, with the evidence and, as the noble Lord is aware, with all previous practice. I will come on to the point from the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, about my ministerial colleagues in this regard, but this is also our government approach.
The noble Lord, Lord Moylan—I hope that I am quoting him correctly; I know that he will correct me if not—asked about the treatment of vaping firms with tobacco industry links in respect of the consultation. When responding to the call for evidence, and with regard to any future consultations, we ask that respondents declare any direct or indirect links to, or funding received from, the tobacco industry. Input from those vaping companies that have links to the tobacco industry will be summarised with regard to the requirements of Article 5.3, and responses from those parts of the vaping industry that are independent of the tobacco industry will be considered alongside the contributions and evidence of other regulations.
Turning to the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, about the DBT Minister, Sir Chris Bryant, I can tell her that the award ceremony to which she referred followed the historic signing of the UK-India trade deal. It has previously been attended by Ministers to celebrate the small businesses that are, as we have spoken about regularly, the backbone of our high streets and are delivering economic growth. We are acutely conscious of government guidance; I assure the noble Baroness that no bilateral or brush-by meetings with representatives of the tobacco industry were held.
Baroness Northover (LD)
Did the Minister know who was sponsoring that event?
Baroness Merron (Lab)
To my knowledge, he did not. I return to the point about consultation. There is a requirement to consult before making regulations under the majority of the powers in the Bill. At the risk of repeating myself, which I will do, we published a call for evidence on 8 October. The evidence is—I am sorry for pausing, but I have a cough. Perhaps the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, would like to take advantage of that.
Lord Lansley (Con)
I will give the Minister a moment to drink a glass of water.
If I may presume to ask a pointed question, I am looking for Ministers not to say, “Well, you didn’t do it in the past, therefore you can’t be expected to do it in future”, but to have a conversation with the industry about what this new regime will be, how it will work and how we can—most effectively, with the least interference in how an industry operates and with the lowest compliance costs—arrive at something that is flexible and effective. This may mean that the industry comes together to do something that it has not done in the past, but I do not think that we should exclude the possibility that the industry is capable of doing that.
Baroness Merron (Lab)
I understand that. I refer to my previous comments about Clause 104 already providing for legislative sub-delegation, although I am aware that the noble Lord has raised a broader point and drawn on the interests of the alcohol industry. I understand the point he is making. However, at the risk of repetition, our concern is very much based on our experience and the evidence of the industry. I realise that the noble Lord does not agree with that.
Lord Lansley (Con)
If I may intervene, since this is Committee and we cannot interrupt each other on Report and have this conversation, the point I am making is very simple: the past is not a necessary guide to the future. The fact that the industry did not do something in the past does not mean that it is not capable of doing it effectively in the future. As the Minister knows, the department’s experience is that, in relation to the alcohol industry, the Portman Group is an effective instrument for coregulation, so we should not exclude that possibility. I acknowledge that it is not simply a question of what powers are in the Bill; it is about how one structures the regime, and that conversation should happen now.
Baroness Merron (Lab)
I will be very happy to write further to the noble Lord, referring to the points that he raises, but I feel that he and I are at risk of repeating the same points to each other. My concern is that the industry has had much opportunity and not taken it. Indeed, it has been extremely creative—I am being polite—in working its way around legislation. Noble Lords will have heard my resistance to setting up more loopholes, and that is also for this very good reason. Although in theory I can understand the point the noble Lord is making, I am afraid that my reality does not bear it out. But I will gladly write to him. I appreciate that he is seeking to be constructive and draw on good practice elsewhere, which I understand. I thank him for the break that he gave me.
Finally, as I said, we published a call for evidence on 8 October on issues where more evidence is needed before we consult on specific proposals. That allows all stakeholders, including those relevant to Amendments 154, 154A and 198, to contribute their views. I hope that, with this, noble Lords will feel able not to press their amendments.
Lord Lansley (Con)
My Lords, I had plenty of opportunities to respond as we went along during the debate, so I simply take this opportunity to beg leave to withdraw Amendment 154A.
Monday 17th November 2025
(8 months, 3 weeks ago)
Grand CommitteeTobacco and Vapes Act 2026 Read Hansard Text Amendment Paper: HL Bill 89-VI Sixth marshalled list for Grand Committee - (14 Nov 2025)
This text is a record of ministerial contributions to a debate held as part of the Tobacco and Vapes Act 2026 passage through Parliament.
In 1993, the House of Lords Pepper vs. Hart decision provided that statements made by Government Ministers may be taken as illustrative of legislative intent as to the interpretation of law.
This extract highlights statements made by Government Ministers along with contextual remarks by other members. The full debate can be read here
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Baroness Merron) (Lab)
My Lords, I thank noble Lords for bringing forward these amendments. For the convenience of the Committee, I will speak to them as a group. I am also grateful for noble Lords’ contributions and reflections throughout.
The clauses within Part 6, to which these amendments refer, taken in their totality will ban advertising and sponsorship of tobacco products, herbal smoking products, cigarette papers, vaping products and nicotine products. By doing this, it will bring all these products in line with tobacco. There has been—as the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, helpfully made reference to—a significant growth in awareness of vaping promotion, with some 55% of all children aged 11 to 17 aware of promotion in shops in 2025, which is up from 37% in 2022. It is unacceptable that children are exposed to vape adverts on the side of buses and in shop windows as they make their way to school or elsewhere. It is also unacceptable that a family going out to watch football could be exposed to vape branding on the kits of players who should be role models to children.
The noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, raised nicotine pouches. There are currently few restrictions on the advertising of these products, and they are highly promoted in shops and on social media. As a demonstration of this, awareness of nicotine pouches has risen from 38% in 2024 to 43% in 2025.
I understand why the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, asked about non-nicotine vapes. However, the reality is that non-nicotine vapes may be used as a gateway to nicotine vapes. In addition, nicotine could be manually added to the device. We have to take all that into account and, on that basis—to go directly to her question—we do not plan to include them in a consultation.
The noble Lords, Lord Johnson and Lord Moylan, spoke about the banning of vaping and nicotine products being deliberately branded and advertised to children. That is of course a manifesto commitment. We are doing it, as I have said a number of times, to stop the next generation becoming addicted to nicotine.
We also know that there is strong support among the public for doing this. Measures to restrict vape advertising are supported by some 77% of adults in Great Britain, who are keen to see bans on the advertising and promotion of vapes, so we will not be consulting on the whole matter of advertising. I can say to the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, that addictive products of the nature she has described should never have been handed out for free. The Bill will address this by ensuring that free samples of these products cannot be given out to adults and children of any age.
The Government have already published a thorough impact assessment of the measures in the Bill, including the effect of the prohibition on the advertising and sponsorship of vaping and nicotine products. I say to the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, that the advertising ban aims to reduce the risk of young people being exposed to vape promotion and advertisements, not the ability of adults to buy vaping products.
I reassure the noble Lord, Lord Howard—and I say this to all noble Lords—that we are committed to helping adult smokers to quit. That is best led by the appropriate health authority, such as the NHS. The noble Lord, Lord Bourne, was right to say, “If you don’t smoke, don’t vape”. We will return to this in a later group, but I can tell him that the Bill allows public health authorities to take certain steps to promote vapes as a means of smoking cessation. That is the right place for this to be.
Further to that, the NHS can provide tailored advice to the individual with the necessary behavioural support. We have invested an additional £70 million in 2025-26 to support local authority-led stop smoking services in England to help people quit smoking, and we will continue to run targeted campaigns to help current smokers quit.
The noble Earl, Lord Howe, asked about an assessment of how the bans will impact businesses, smoking cessation services, et cetera. We will continue to monitor the impact of these changes following implementation.
With that, I hope the noble Lord, Lord Howard, will be able to withdraw Amendment 160.
Lord Moylan (Con)
Since the noble Baroness has said so clearly that the purpose of the advertising ban is to prevent information being communicated to children and young people, and that that was a manifesto commitment, why does the ban have to be drawn so widely? Clause 119 has a list of defences that can be advanced for those who are accused of breaching the various preceding clauses on advertising, but none of them says that it is a different matter if the communication is with adults. Is this not drawn far too widely to be justified by her laudable ambition?
Baroness Merron (Lab)
I am glad that the noble Lord regards it as a laudable ambition. We will come to exemptions in the next group, and I look forward to doing so.
Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-Afl)
I, too, am slightly confused by this. I was reading something the other day from the DCMS, boasting about the creative industries, and one of the big and most profitable parts of the creative industries in this country is advertising and marketing. It is considered to be something we are proud of. Lots of products have age issues. If you are a cider producer, you have to advertise, but you do not want a six year-old drinking it. We have discussed things such as fizzy drinks, so I appreciate this. This appears to be a blanket catch-all. It does not seem to take up the ways we have learned, in the advertising and marketing world, how, in a society that has children in it at the same time as adults, you can have a sensible restriction on advertising sometimes without depriving everybody of the gain of the advert. NHS information, while useful, is not the same as marketing choice, giving people ideas of the options they might have with vapes, which are not all the same product.
Baroness Merron (Lab)
I thank the noble Baroness. This kind of question also comes up in respect of other products: for example, the 9 pm watershed, in terms of the advertisement of high-fat, high-sugar, high-salt foods in order that that advertising is not affecting children and young people. So, this is a constant discussion: that is not a criticism but an observation, of course. What is interesting to me in respect of tobacco is that the evidence found that partial bans are not as effective as a comprehensive ban when it comes to the aim, ambition and intent to reduce tobacco consumption. Similar assumptions can clearly be drawn on vapes. I hope that helps in terms of clarifying the point I am making, even if it may not satisfy the noble Baroness, which I understand.
Earl Howe (Con)
My Lords, in this group of amendments we have seen a logical continuation of our debate on the previous group, since in their various ways these amendments pose the question of what are the appropriate constraints to place around products that are of considerably less concern in a health context than tobacco products. We are back in the realm of deciding what is proportionate and how to secure better clarity and consistency in the operation of the Bill’s advertising and design provisions.
Although he has not been here to speak to it, my noble friend Lord Udny-Lister’s Amendment 161A struck me as a point worth raising. It would protect designers and creative professionals from being criminally liable based on mere suspicion or indirect association because it would work to raise the threshold of proof of intent. One could imagine that in some cases it could be difficult to prove that someone designing an advertisement had reason to suspect that it would be published. In any event, is it right that someone who has been asked by their employer to design a vape advertisement should be criminalised because they know or believe it may be used in some context? I am afraid that the word “draconian” comes to mind.
On my noble friend’s Amendment 161B a very similar thought came to mind. Are the Government really saying that the offence of designing an advertisement for a vape merits a prison sentence? There are mixed messages coming out of the Government at the moment. How should the sentencing provisions in this part of the Bill be read alongside the provisions of the Government’s Sentencing Bill? What is the overall message? The Sentencing Bill will require almost all sentences of less than 12 months to be suspended. On the one hand, the Government are creating imprisonable offences, and on the other, they are saying that people should not actually go to prison, even if they are sentenced to it. At the very least, the Minister needs to explain to the Committee why the sentence on summary conviction is to be different in Scotland than in Northern Ireland, which might have been a point my noble friend Lord Udny-Lister would have made.
Turning to my Amendment 167 and the very well worded amendment, if I may say so, from the Liberal Democrats, the underlying purpose of each is the same, which is to urge the Government to regulate, rather than ban, vape advertisements so that in narrow clinical contexts, such as smoking cessation clinics, they can be deployed for public health purposes. Amendment 168A in the name of my noble friend Lord Howard of Rising has a very similar purpose.
In Amendment 169 I am asking the Government to consider a further exemption for advertisements located discretely in specialist vaping shops. Why not allow that? As my noble friend Lord Moylan has asked in his Amendment 170, why prohibit such specialist shops providing information online subject to suitable age-gating checks? That in turn raises a further question from my noble friend in his Amendment 168. In adult-only environments, why should displaying an advertisement for a vaping product be against the law given that, as we need to keep reminding ourselves, vapes are and will remain legally available for purchase by anyone aged 18 or over? Why are the Government treating vape advertising in exactly the same way as tobacco advertising? What is the justification? Amendment 170A from my noble friend Lord Howard asks that question in a different form. Why should we not allow factual product information to be provided at point of sale in an age-restricted area in suitably licensed premises?
Finally, Amendment 172A from my noble friend Lord Udny-Lister would prevent overreach. It would ensure that brand restrictions target only genuine attempts to promote nicotine or tobacco, not completely unrelated products such as clothing or other merchandise. I think my noble friend has identified an issue that requires clarification from the Government, and I would welcome the Minister’s comments.
Baroness Merron (Lab)
I am most grateful to noble Lords for bringing forward this group of amendments, which reference Part 6 provisions, and for the contributions that have been made.
I will start with Amendments 161A and 161B, which are tabled in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Udny-Lister. The current drafting of Clause 114 makes it an offence, when acting in the course of business, to design an advert that would promote a relevant product and be published in the UK. If an organisation knows or has reason to suspect their advert has a promotional purpose or effect and will be published in the UK, it has committed an offence by designing the advert.
I say to the noble Earl, Lord Howe, that the inclusion of “has reason to suspect” is deliberate, not least because it mirrors the approach taken in the existing Tobacco Advertising and Promotion Act. This wording is designed to avoid loopholes and to ensure that those who are involved in the design of ads cannot evade responsibility by claiming ignorance where it is clear from the evidence that they had reason to suspect what they were designing an advert for. I hope the noble Earl will understand that we will, therefore, not seek to weaken existing legislation or allow any uncertainty that could be exploited.
I turn to Amendment 161B. I sympathise with the intention to align penalties across the UK but, of course, it is important that we respect Scotland has a separate criminal justice system. There are maximum penalties for this type of offence; they are fixed in line with the criminal justice system in each jurisdiction. I hope that that is helpful to the noble Earl, Lord Howe.
I turn to Amendment 172A, which was also tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Udny-Lister. It seeks to restrict the scope of the offence of brand sharing. Brand sharing, also known as brand stretching, is a form of indirect advertising and should be seen as such, not least because it promotes the use of a service or product by putting its branding on other products or services or vice versa. The clause is drafted in a manner that already limits the offence that could be created under this power to cases where the purpose or effect is to promote a relevant product. Brand sharing, as defined in the Bill, would be unlikely to capture the types of case about which the noble Lord is concerned in his amendment; it is our view, therefore, that this amendment, as it stands, would introduce unnecessary complexity.
I turn to Amendment 168 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Moylan. The Bill as drafted takes decisive action to ban the advertising and sponsorship of all vapes and nicotine products, delivering on our clear manifesto commitment to stop vapes being advertised to children—something on which the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, spoke. The ban is essential to creating what we seek: a strong, consistent regulatory environment; and to provide clarity for businesses and enforcement bodies. I can say to the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, that guidance will be produced on advertising.
This Bill already includes defences for the limited circumstances in which advertising would be appropriate. As I have said in our debates on earlier groups, we are not considering any other exemptions for adult-only spaces, not least because of the risk of loopholes; these were referred to by the noble Baroness, Lady Northover. However, I take this opportunity to correct a statement that was made in the other place: this prohibition will apply to all advertisements for relevant products, not just those for specific products. In practice, this means that anyone acting in the course of business could commit an offence if they promote a relevant product, whether that is a generic product, a category of products or a specific branded product.
Lord Moylan (Con)
I think the noble Baroness has addressed Amendment 170. Does she therefore not share the view of the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, which was, as I understood it, that my Amendment 170 is unnecessary because there is nothing in the Bill that prohibits specialist vape retailers communicating on the internet? I would like clarity on that.
Baroness Merron (Lab)
Of course; I am going to come on to the point about online advertising.
Amendments 167 and 169, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Kamall, Amendment 168A, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Howard, and Amendment 171, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, all seek to create exemptions to allow for the promotion of products for the purposes of smoking cessation—something that was also spoken to by the noble Lord, Lord Young. As I mentioned on the previous group, I repeat the assurance to noble Lords that the Bill as drafted will allow certain public authorities to continue to take steps to promote vapes as a means to quit smoking. This is a matter that I will come back to on Report.
The offences in Part 6 apply only to those acting in the course of business. For example, following the passage of the Bill, local stop smoking services will still be able to take steps to promote vapes to smokers as a less harmful alternative. The noble Lord, Lord Young, raised an important question about GPs and pharmacists having such a facility. I assure him that we will be further reviewing whether the Bill provides the necessary approach considering the points that he made.
I also mention something relevant to an earlier group—I may be stepping a little outside of things here, but I remember the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, in particular, making this point. The advertisement offences will not prevent a retailer offering verbal smoking cessation services to their customers. While I am sympathetic to the intention to ensure that vapes remain accessible and visible to adult smokers, there are already strict rules in place for nicotine vape advertising. Under current legislation, it is illegal to advertise nicotine-containing vapes on television, radio, most online platforms and in newspapers and magazines. Companies are not allowed to market a vape as a smoking cessation product or to make medicinal claims about products unless these have been authorised as a medicinal product by the MHRA. As noble Lords have heard me say many times, we believe that promoting smoking cessation is best led by the appropriate health authorities, including the NHS, which can provide tailored advice to the individual with the necessary behavioural support.
I should be clear that all tobacco products are harmful to health, including heated tobacco, which contains tobacco and generates aerosols with carcinogens. The department therefore does not recommend the use of heated tobacco products to quit smoking.
I turn to Amendment 170 from the noble Lord, Lord Moylan—
Lord Lansley (Con)
Forgive me for interrupting, but I did not quite follow. Where in the Bill is the reference to the ability to place an advertisement for a product that is authorised as a medicinal product, where it also happens to be a vaping product? I do not know where that is to be found in legislation.
Baroness Merron (Lab)
I will be happy to come back to the noble Lord and be precise about that while I am going through the rest. If I do not get the opportunity to do so, I will of course write.
I turn to Amendment 170 from the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, and Amendment 170A from the noble Lord, Lord Howard. I am sympathetic to the intention of ensuring that consumers have the information they need to make a purchase. This was spoken to by not only the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, but the noble Lord, Lord Johnson, and the noble Baroness, Lady Fox. However, Amendment 170 is not necessary because retailers, as I have said, will continue to be able to provide the necessary factual information about products to enable purchases. Amendment 170A is also not necessary because the Bill does not prohibit businesses displaying the categories of information that this amendment refers to, as long as the information is not promotional.
The noble Lords, Lord Johnson and Lord Moylan, referred to online providers. The Bill builds on existing legislation and effectively bans all advertising of relevant products, including online. On the particular point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Johnson, we expect enforcement bodies to take a proportionate approach, as they currently do with the advertising of tobacco products.
The noble Lord, Lord Howard, asked about government engagement. We will continue to engage with independent vaping associations and other vaping businesses, but I remind him and the Committee, as I said probably on day one, that the UK Government are committed to Article 5.3 of the World Health Organization Framework Convention on Tobacco Control, which means the protection of public health policy from the vested interests of the tobacco industry. So I have not met and will not meet British American Tobacco.
I will need to write to the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, and will be glad to do so. I hope this will allow the noble Lord, Lord Howard, to withdraw Amendment 161A.
Baroness Walmsley (LD)
My Lords, I will speak first to my Amendment 176. As the noble Lord, Lord Kamall, said, his Amendment 178 does something very similar. As I have often said, policy should be based on evidence, so this amendment seeks to tease out exactly what evidence the Government plan to use when designating a new area as smoke-free.
The Government have already said that their consultation on further smoke-free areas will focus on schools, playgrounds and hospitals. It is fairly clear that areas in and close to schools should be smoke-free, in the same way that local authorities now have powers to prevent the opening of new fast-food outlets near schools because of the health dangers of much of their sales.
However, some playgrounds are very large and it is possible that a parent waiting on a bench for a child, well away from the play equipment, may want to smoke a cigarette—if they are of legal age, of course. Although it would set a bad example, it would be hard to understand the level of risk to the children playing; it would depend how far away they are. As for hospitals, many of them have already designated their grounds as smoke-free, although it has been hard to enforce. Many of us will have seen people smoking outside St Thomas’ Hospital, underneath the “No smoking” sign. Many hospitals have distinct outdoor smoking shelters. The matter is complicated, which is why my amendment probes the Government on the criteria they will use.
On the other hand, Amendments 175 and 179 seek to specify in the Bill the areas that can be designated as smoke-free. This could restrict the Government from acting in other areas in future. Obviously, we want the same rules in all parts of the UK, to save confusion. There are several reasons why the Government should not be limited in this way, and they must bear in mind the different circumstances that prevail in different areas. For example, as the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, mentioned, there are many children on beaches, and discarded cigarettes are a real litter problem, according to coastal local authorities. As she said, transport hubs may also come into focus, because of the crowded conditions in many of them, especially at certain times of the day such as rush hour. We think the Government need flexibility on this issue. Indeed, somebody might be more affected by second-hand smoke in a transport hub than at the far side of a very large playground, which is why I would like to see an evidence test.
We do not support Amendment 177 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Udny-Lister, as the Government may want to restrict smoking in uncovered hospitality areas in the future. However, if they do so they will have to explain the reasons why, and we could debate it then. The fact is that the prohibition on smoking in indoor hospitality venues has proved very popular with customers and landlords alike and has certainly not had a damaging effect on footfall or expansion of the sector. The same might apply to uncovered hospitality areas in the future, if they are considered for the ban.
Baroness Merron (Lab)
My Lords, as we have heard, all the amendments in this group seek to limit the powers in the Bill to make additional places smoke-free in England. On Amendment 176, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, we know that passive smoking, whether indoors or outdoors, poses a risk to health. The rule of thumb is: if you can smell cigarette smoke, you are inhaling it. This is particularly important for children, pregnant women and those with pre-existing health conditions such as asthma or heart disease, which may not be visible to the smoker.
However, despite these well-known and very well-evidenced harms, trying to ascribe specific harms to locations is somewhat challenging, as this debate shows. For example, as the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, mentioned, in a large children’s play area it is difficult to evidence that exposure to second-hand smoke has caused a specific harm in a specific place. I can assure noble Lords that we are extremely mindful of this. Therefore, the test referred to in the amendment is overly restrictive, technically very difficult to do and not necessary, given the extensive evidence of harm to vulnerable people. It would also likely lead to a scenario in which we are unable to protect the most vulnerable in society from the harms of second-hand smoke.
Similarly, on Amendment 178, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Kamall, as I mentioned, we know the harms of passive smoking. There is strong indirect evidence but, as I said, it can be difficult to demonstrate this evidence in specific locations. Again, this restrictive test would prevent areas where there are harms of second-hand smoke to children and medically vulnerable people from becoming smoke-free. Furthermore, as this amendment would apply in England only, it would leave England with more restrictive smoke-free provisions than the devolved nations.
Amendments 175 and 179 were tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Kamall. As we have made clear but I would like to reiterate, in England we plan to consult on extending smoke-free places as and when. In the first instance, it would be to the outdoor areas of schools and early years settings, children’s playgrounds and healthcare settings. I can assure the noble Lord, Lord Kamall, and the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, that all proposed smoke-free locations will be subject to consultation both now and into the future and that regulations will be subject to the affirmative procedure. We will be guided by public health advice. The noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, rightly observed that the powers within the Bill allow us to respond to evolving evidence at a later time, particularly where there is evidence of clear harms to children and vulnerable people.
On Amendment 177 tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Udny-Lister, we have made it very clear—I am glad to take the opportunity to do so again, not least because the noble Lord, Lord Kamall, raised this—that outdoor hospitality settings will not be in scope of the consultation on smoke-free places. We fully recognise the balance that is needed to protect the most vulnerable as well as ensure that businesses are not financially impacted. We are confident that we have the balance right in deciding the places, which I have already outlined, on which we plan to consult.
However, the powers in the Bill, as has been observed, allow for additional places to be designated smoke-free in the future, subject to further consultation and parliamentary debate. The landscape may change significantly on tobacco legislation, as it has done over the years. Evidence and attitudes may also shift, again as we have seen over the years, so it is sensible to ensure that the Bill is future-proofed and can respond to evolving evidence. I therefore ask the noble Lord to withdraw this amendment.
Lord Kamall (Con)
My Lords, I am grateful to the wide range of noble Lords who spoke on these amendments. These are clearly intended as probing amendments, at this stage, to understand—as the Minister herself agreed—these wide sweeping powers to designate additional spaces as smoke-free. We are grateful because we were concerned about the level of scrutiny there would be. The Minister assured us that there will be consultation and that any changes will be by regulation following the affirmative procedure. We are very grateful for that and that perhaps answers some of the probing amendments that we have in future groups. For now, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Baroness Northover (LD)
My Lords, I will speak to Amendment 186 in my name. I thank my noble friend Lady Walmsley for her support. This amendment would ensure that all pavement licences granted by local authorities are required to be smoke-free. Some noble Lords will remember that this House voted in support of this issue previously, but I will briefly cover the background for those who are less familiar with it.
Pavement licences were introduced during the pandemic when mixing inside was prohibited. They allowed hospitality venues to expand their seating outside at a time of great difficulty. We worked across parties to ensure that these outside spaces, as an extension of inside, should, like the interior areas, be smoke-free to protect the public, including children, and staff. We secured that, despite the familiar refrain that hospitality would go to the wall and so on. Then the industry indeed got to the Minister and the DCLG and, without consulting the Department of Health, this was ended. It is such a familiar story.
Meanwhile, outside areas proved very popular and became permanent fixtures in 2021. At that time, the House voted in favour of the amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner, regretting that smoke-free pavement licences had not been adopted by the Government. This amendment honours that vote.
When pavement licences were first introduced, there was a requirement that some seating in the designated area was smoke-free. However, unless outside spaces are vast—we do not expect that on a pavement—having smoking and non-smoking tables next to each other means that everyone experiences second-hand smoke exposure due to drift.
The LGA backed our campaign to make all these areas smoke-free. Some councils decided that they would make the spaces being smoke-free a requirement of pavement licences, which was perfectly acceptable within the regulations, such that there was no requirement to have a smoking section. So far, 11 councils have introduced 100% smoke-free conditions in pavement seating. This includes cities such as Liverpool, Manchester and Newcastle. Evidence from these local authorities shows that the scheme is popular with customers and businesses alike, protecting public health without having adverse economic impacts.
There is no risk-free level of exposure to second-hand smoke. Second-hand smoke is an irritant for people struggling with asthma or other lung conditions, and associated health effects from second-hand smoke include stroke, lung cancer and heart disease. I hope that hospitality settings are included in the consultation for smoke-free extensions for the Bill. Polling shows that 40% of people said that they would be more likely to visit pubs and restaurants if smoking was banned in outdoor seating areas.
Hospitality is an important sector of our economy, but the notion that it is somehow economically dependent on the continued consumption of tobacco and allowing smoking in outside spaces requires further examination of the evidence. These arguments were made when public places were made smoke-free in the first place. Now, few people could contemplate pubs and restaurants once more being full of cigarette smoke. All the same arguments were made about banning smoking in public places and that places would go under—not so. In fact, the debate helped encourage people to give up, as opposed to smoking more at home. Making pavement licences smoke-free, which has proved such a success in many areas, feels like a step in the right direction.
I will comment on other amendments in this group. Amendment 180, regarding cigar lounges, points to an interesting case. Where we make exceptions and create loopholes, they have the potential to be exploited. Following the powerful speech of the noble Baroness, Lady Ramsey, it seems that there has been a very liberal interpretation of the notion of “sampling” that goes beyond what Parliament intended in the 2000s. She pointed to the real health consequences of cigar smoking and the potential risk to staff. I point noble Lords to what the NIH—the National Institutes of Health—and the National Cancer Institute say on this:
“Yes. Cigar smoke … contains toxic and cancer-causing chemicals that are harmful to both smokers and nonsmokers. Cigar smoke is possibly more toxic than cigarette smoke … there is more … tar in cigars than in cigarettes”.
They say that there is no safe use. There are higher rates of lung cancer, coronary heart disease and lung disease than among those who do not smoke, and similar levels of oral cancer and cancer of the oesophagus as for cigarette smokers. Anybody can look this up for themselves; I suggest that, in terms of there being “no risk”, noble Lords should do so. We should do nothing to create loopholes in this Bill, and I look forward to hearing what the Minister says about that.
The noble Lord, Lord Kamall, and the noble Earl, Lord Howe, have challenged the proposition that Clause 136 stand part of the Bill. I listened with great interest to the discussion on why they wanted to probe smoking for artistic purposes. Of course, it used to be the case that smoking was a mainstay in films—I think of Humphrey Bogart smoking a cigarette in “Casablanca”, looking very cool with Ingrid Bergman melting before him. I would welcome hearing from the Minister what the Government plan to do in relation to this, because it came across as something that was very cool. We also do not want non-smoking actors to be led into a smoking habit. We hear about instances of that, where actors were not addicted but became addicted as a result of their roles. I know that the National Theatre has a smoke-free policy and that there are alternatives to smoking tobacco that can be used to portray it.
We know also that the depictions of smoking and vaping in the media increase the chance that young people will take up the habit, regardless of whether it is a positive or negative depiction. I realise that noble Lords are simply probing to elucidate what the Government are planning, and I look forward to hearing what the Minister says, but I also hope that the Minister is sympathetic to my Amendment 186. I also look forward to what she says in relation to the amendment from the noble Baroness, Lady Ramsey.
Baroness Merron (Lab)
My Lords, the amendments in this group seek to change the detail of exemptions and powers on smoke-free places. I am grateful both for the debate and the amendments, which raise a number of issues.
I start with the amendment introduced by my noble friend Lady Ramsey on behalf of my noble friend Lord Faulkner, who tabled it. It seeks to remove the existing exemption that allows individuals to sample cigars and pipe tobacco indoors in an enclosed and ventilated area in a specialist tobacconist. This amendment was also spoken to, although in a different way, by the noble Lords, Lord Johnson, Lord Murray and Lord Strathcarron. Tobacco is, as I have said, a uniquely harmful product. I sympathise with the aims of the amendment and agree with the intention. However, specialist tobacconists, as we have heard in the debate, are currently exempt because of the specialist nature of their trade. These businesses make up a very small percentage of the market in the UK.
I can assure my noble friend Lady Ramsey that there are a number of restrictions to the current exemption. For example, the sampling area is legally required to be enclosed, clearly signed and appropriately ventilated to prevent smoke spreading to non-smoking areas. Other tobacco products such as cigarettes cannot be sampled. I was interested to hear the example that my noble friend Lady Ramsey brought before the Committee. I know she will understand that I cannot comment on very specific circumstances, but this may or may not be a matter for enforcement. I am sure that my noble friend will look into that further.
It is important that the Bill balances the public health aims within it while ensuring that small and medium-sized businesses are not unnecessarily financially impacted. Ultimately, given our ambition to prevent future generations taking up smoking, we anticipate, as we have said in previous groups, that in the long term specialist tobacconists will have to pivot their business models. Given this, we expect the exemption currently in place, which we are not seeking to change, to be used less and less over time. I give the assurance that we will continue to monitor this niche market to ensure there is not a targeting of young people or an exploitation of the exemption. Of course, as this exemption is in regulations, it is possible to review this in the future, if required.
The noble Lord, Lord Strathcarron, asked about impact assessments. Any further impact assessments that are required will be prepared in advance of any legislation which is the normal process where there could be economic impacts. The impact assessments will be reviewed by the regulatory policy committee—again, in accordance with normal practice.
The noble Lord, Lord Kamall, and the noble Earl, Lord Howe, have indicated that they oppose Clause 136 standing part of the Bill. The clause recasts an existing regulation-making power that was found in the Health Act 2006. It allows the Secretary of State to make regulations permitting performers in England to smoke during a performance. The intention of the clause is to provide simplification and offer greater consistency with the Bill’s other provision. In practice, it is our assessment that this will not make a real difference, which I know is of concern to the noble Earl.
Wednesday 26th November 2025
(8 months, 2 weeks ago)
Grand CommitteeTobacco and Vapes Act 2026 Read Hansard Text Amendment Paper: HL Bill 89-VII Seventh marshalled list for Grand Committee - (24 Nov 2025)
This text is a record of ministerial contributions to a debate held as part of the Tobacco and Vapes Act 2026 passage through Parliament.
In 1993, the House of Lords Pepper vs. Hart decision provided that statements made by Government Ministers may be taken as illustrative of legislative intent as to the interpretation of law.
This extract highlights statements made by Government Ministers along with contextual remarks by other members. The full debate can be read here
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
Lord Robathan (Con)
My Lords, I rise briefly to support my noble friend Lord Kamall on the Front Bench. I have not taken part in these debates before, but I have to say that I find it quite disturbing that we should be making laws because perhaps we do not like walking down a street where people are puffing vapes. I do not, but there are lots of things I do not like that people do, and I am not going to ban them all—well, perhaps I would, actually, but I am not going to.
Similarly, if you cannot be hooked by passive vaping, as my noble friend Lord Kamall said, I am not quite sure why we are taking it so seriously. As I understand it, vaping is not addictive; nicotine is addictive, but vaping itself is a different matter. It also seems to me that we are legislating unnecessarily. I am afraid, to broaden the subject slightly, that this will lead to yet further influxes of cheap and nasty vapes, which may or may not be, as the noble Baroness just said, influenced by other matters.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Baroness Merron) (Lab)
My Lords, I am most grateful to noble Lords for their contributions to this debate. Let me first turn to the opposition to Clause 138 standing part of the Bill, which has been proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Udny-Lister. Clause 138 amends the Health Act 2006 to insert new provisions relating to vape-free places in England. These provisions allow the Secretary of State to designate certain places and vehicles as vape-free, but only where they are also smoke-free.
The noble Lord, Lord Kamall, asked about evidence. The fact is that evidence is developing, as the noble Lord himself rightly acknowledged, but we do know that while vapes are less harmful than smoking, there is a reason why the Chief Medical Officer says:
“If you smoke, vaping is much safer; if you don’t smoke, don’t vape”.
Vapes are not harm-free; there are legitimate concerns regarding the unknown long-term health impacts of vaping. They produce aerosol that exposes people to nicotine and potential toxicants, which poses health risks to children and medically vulnerable people in particular; for example, they can trigger asthma attacks. It is therefore important and right—I say this to the noble Lord, Lord Robathan—that the Government act to protect more vulnerable groups from potential health harms. I should also say that evidence suggests that, in adolescence, the brain is more sensitive to the effects of nicotine, so there could be additional risks for young people compared to adults.
As the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, said, many businesses and enclosed public places already have in place, on a voluntary basis, schemes to prohibit vape usage on their premises. We want to introduce legislative requirements to make it clear to the public where it is illegal to use vapes and to enable enforcement agencies to enforce accordingly. I know that noble Lords understand the reasons for wanting to be clear about what is and is not legal, and this Bill and the provisions in it are very much part of that.
Again, as the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, welcomed, the main answer to all the questions today— I will continue to go through the various amendments—is that we will be consulting on making indoor settings that are subject to existing smoke-free legislation vape free. The consultation in this area and beyond is crucial, because we also plan to consult on making some outdoor places where children are present vape free—for example, children’s playgrounds, and the outdoor areas of schools and early years settings.
The noble Lord, Lord Kamall, asked about how we will recognise the difference between harms. I can assure him that this is an area we absolutely want to get right. We do want to ensure that adult smokers who are using vapes as quit aids are doing so in appropriate places, such that they do not return to smoking. That is exactly why we will consult before making regulations and carefully consider the responses to ensure the policy seeks the appropriate balance.
Amendment 182A tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Howard of Rising, would mean that some indoor areas, for example nightclubs, would not be able to be made vape free. I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, for her views on this. As I have already outlined, vapers pose potential risks to both users and non-users, especially indoors. We had a debate in an earlier group about the workability or otherwise of designating particular areas as able to police themselves. It is quite important to say to the Committee that the vast majority—around 90% of those over 16—do not currently vape. Just because someone is in an over-18 setting does not mean that they are content to be exposed to these second-hand harms.
As discussed, this is a particular concern for medically vulnerable people whose conditions may not be in the least visible to the vaper, who I am sure does not wish to cause harm—for example, those with asthma. Additionally, people who wish to vape will still be able to do so in outdoor hospitality settings—for example, in the outdoor smoking areas of an over-18 nightclub. We have been very clear that we will not be consulting on including those outdoor areas in the scope of vape- free places.
Ultimately, the Bill grants powers to make places vape free and does not itself make any place vape free. The consultation will ask questions relating to areas that should become vape free, any necessary exemptions and any additional evidence on the second-hand harms of these products. Therefore, in our view there is no change needed to the primary legislation.
It is appropriate now to turn to Amendments 181 and 184, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Kamall, which would seek to limit the locations that can be designated as vape free. As I have already outlined, the current power allows us to respond to evolving evidence at a later time and ensures the Bill is future-proof. The noble Lord asked about the process. I can confirm as I have done previously that the power for vape-free places will be through an affirmative regulation. That will mean, as the noble Lord knows, a debate in both places. The noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, talked about vape-free areas being specified in the Bill. I hope I have explained why that is not the case. It is particularly important as we talk about evolving evidence that we look to the future. That is why we will be consulting and why we will turn to regulations.
The noble Lord, Lord Kamall, mentioned vape-free schools and asked whether that measure applies to children or adults. I can confirm that it is about the area rather than the people in it. So there are no limitations on people of a certain age; it is the area that would be designated.
I turn to Amendments 182 and 187 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Udny-Lister, which relate to vape-free policies in schools and colleges in England that are made vape-free places. It is my view that these amendments are not necessary. As I have said, we have already made it clear that we will consult on making schools, sixth-form colleges and early years settings vape-free places. Public consultation will allow us to gather views from a wide range of stakeholders, including those who run education settings. Enforcement officers will have the power to issue on-the-spot fines or pursue convictions where they deem it necessary for the offence of using a vape in a vape-free place. However, we anticipate—this may be helpful to noble Lords—that there will continue to be a role for internal sanctions for pupils found vaping on the premises. Schools are already required to publish a behavioural policy.
In relation to education provisions for pupils on vaping, we have worked closely with the Department for Education to incorporate education on the risks of vaping and nicotine use in the recently updated relationships, sex and health education statutory guidance for schools and teachers; I am sure that the person referred to by the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, will benefit from that in future.
I appreciate the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Kamall, and his intention in Amendment 183, to which the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, also spoke. I agree that it is important that patients receiving care in a mental health setting have access to appropriate smoking cessation tools; that is particularly true given that smoking rates among those with a long-term mental health condition are far higher than in the general population. As I have mentioned previously, in England, we are considering making inside hospitals—but not outside them—smoke-free. I appreciate and am alive to the fact that there are particular considerations in the case of mental health facilities, but I assure noble Lords that we are keen to get things right in this area and are going to follow the evidence. We want to ensure that vapes can continue to be accessible as an effective quitting aid for adult smokers; noble Lords have made strong and important points about this. As outlined, we believe that the details of any exemptions are best explored through the consultation process, although we understand the intention behind the amendment.
I hope that this provides reassurance and understanding to noble Lords that the settings that will be in scope of the vape-free policy will be fully considered by consultation and then considered under the affirmative procedure. I hope that the noble Lord feels able to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Kamall (Con)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for her response; I also thank all noble Lords who spoke on this group. I am grateful to the Minister for confirming that any further extension of the designation of vape-free places will be done via the affirmative procedure, which is very welcome.
I have a couple of outstanding questions; I suspect that the Minister and her department were not able to get the answers quick enough, thanks to the power of the internet or whatever, so I wonder whether the Minister could write to noble Lords on these matters. First, is there any evidence yet from studies of passive smoking in outdoor settings? As I said, the studies I looked at were all on indoor settings; nothing has been done on outdoor settings. It would be good to know what evidence the department currently has. I also ask the Minister to share that evidence, with the appropriate links, so that we can all understand it. usbI understand that the consultation is all about seeking further evidence, but it would be interesting to know what evidence the department currently has—on the understanding that the evidence is evolving, as the Minister rightly said.
Earl Howe (Con)
My Lords, my noble friends Lord Howard of Rising and Lord Udny-Lister, who is unfortunately not in his place, are to be thanked for enabling us to focus on the issues around the use of heated tobacco. We have touched on this subject at earlier stages but, when previously discussing heated tobacco, the Minister promised to write to noble Lords about the evidence that her department possesses of the harms caused by heated tobacco. I am sure that is high on her agenda, but the question is crucial in the context of these amendments since, whatever the answer is, it will have a direct bearing on the use of the Secretary of State’s powers to designate locations as heated tobacco-free.
There are various published studies, as she will know. A study published by UCL found that people who switched from cigarettes to heated tobacco had lower levels of exposure to harmful chemicals than those who kept smoking, but higher levels of these toxins than those who stopped using tobacco altogether, which I guess is not a surprising finding. Other studies state that it is too soon to know how using heat—not burn—products will affect someone’s health in the long term, since research looking at these tobacco products is still, I understand, in its early stages and, in the main, funded by the tobacco industry. We therefore need clear evidence, born of independent research, on both the relative harm of heated tobacco compared to burning tobacco, as well as the absolute levels of harm that result from its use.
I am a non-smoker. I understand the concern that heated tobacco should not be a loophole for large tobacco firms to get around the law, but I am also concerned that in the absence of long-term evidence, portraying heated tobacco as being in the same category as cigarettes carries the risk of failing to reduce harm for that small percentage of smokers who wish to quit but have not taken to vapes for one reason or another.
Pending fresh research findings, I think, alongside my noble friends, that there remains a legitimate question about how the Government intend to treat spaces, both indoors and outdoors, where heated tobacco is used, and about whether they believe there is a clear proven case for including heated tobacco in the generational ban. In particular, does the Minister consider uncovered outdoor areas to be different in this context from enclosed spaces, in terms of both health risk and social behaviour? As she knows, the hospitality industry has concerns about extending the indoor smoking ban to outdoor hospitality areas such as pub gardens, and I welcome the assurance she gave on that a few minutes ago. The indication from the Government thus far is that hospitality areas will not be caught by any outdoor ban, but if that is true of smoke tobacco, can the Minister confirm that there is no similar intention as regards the outdoor use of heated tobacco?
Baroness Merron (Lab)
My Lords, the amendments in this group relate to limiting the Government’s ability to create heated tobacco-free places in England. I am grateful for all the contributions to the debate.
The noble Lord, Lord Udny-Lister, opposes Clause 139 standing part of the Bill. Clause 139 provides the power to designate certain places and vehicles in England as heated tobacco-free. Places can be designated heated tobacco-free only if they are smoke-free. As I have mentioned, we plan to consult on making heated tobacco-free all indoor places that are currently smoke-free. We also plan to consult on making certain outdoor spaces heated tobacco-free. As with smoke-free places, the consultation will cover children’s playgrounds, the outdoor areas of schools and early years settings, and areas outside healthcare settings where medically vulnerable people may be present.
The noble Earl, Lord Howe, asked an important question about evidence, and I will write with more detail as soon as possible. However, I reiterate what I said in debates on previous groups and elsewhere: there is no safe level of tobacco consumption and all tobacco products are harmful, including heated tobacco products. I am grateful to the noble Baronesses, Lady Bennett and Lady Walmsley, for their supportive comments. Laboratory studies show evidence of toxicity from heated tobacco and that the aerosol generated by heated tobacco devices, like other forms of tobacco, contains carcinogenic compounds. Recent evidence has also indicated that exposure to second-hand emissions from heated tobacco products is associated with significant respiratory and cardiovascular abnormalities in bystanders.
The noble Lord, Lord Udny-Lister, also tabled Amendment 185. The noble Earl, Lord Howe, asked me to repeat—I am glad to do so—that, as I have made clear, we are not planning to consult on making outdoor hospitality settings in England heated tobacco-free.
Amendment 184A tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Howard of Rising, seeks to exempt areas where it would be reasonable to expect that only over-18s are present from any future restrictions on heated tobacco places. This amendment is similar to the one already discussed in relation to vape-free places, which would mean that some indoor areas, for example nightclubs, could not be made heated tobacco-free.
Baroness Merron (Lab)
My Lords, I am most grateful for this discussion. I say at the outset that, although I do not support accepting the amendments, I have a lot of sympathy with a number of the points made, which I will come on to. However, while I completely understand the pressure on small retailers—I will come on to that—I struggle to accept that the Bill is the fount of all evil, which I feel is the direction we are going in. I certainly agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, who spoke about the need to see the Bill in its overall context. I associate myself with those comments.
I absolutely agree with the intention behind Amendment 191, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Kamall, and introduced by the noble Earl, Lord Howe. I hope I can reassure noble Lords that the Government are committed to supporting businesses to implement the measures in the Bill, which much of this discussion has been about. As I have said previously, we will continue —it is a continuing thing that is not in the past—to work closely with retail bodies such as the British Retail Consortium and the Association of Convenience Stores on the implementation of the measures, which will include the development of guidance.
I heard the concern of noble Lords about what guidance will be given. Again, I understand those points but, to say it in other words, we will support retailers through this transition. As the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, mentioned, what is being asked of retailers is not unusual for them; they are very familiar with age verification. I will come back to that later. The measures in the Tobacco and Vapes Bill will come into force across a range of dates and therefore it is important that the associated guidance is available at the appropriate time. In other words, there will be time to make this transition and there will be support for that. We are firmly committed to publishing the guidance in a timely manner.
Turning to Amendment 188, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Kamall, I say to nearly all noble Lords who have spoken that, although I understand the intention of the amendment, it is unnecessary. As noble Lords have acknowledged, the Government are already taking action to tackle the absolutely unacceptable rise in retail crime. The Government will not stand for violence and abuse of any kind against shop workers. Everybody has a right to feel safe at their place of work and we have long championed specific protections for retail workers.
To protect the hardworking and dedicated staff who work in stores, the Crime and Policing Bill introduces a new offence of assaulting a retail worker, which the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, referred to. The Bill also removes legislation which makes shop theft of goods to the value of £200 or below a summary-only offence. That sends a clear message that any level of shop theft is illegal and will be taken seriously. I hope that that is helpful to the noble Lord, Lord Howard.
Alongside legislative action, we are also providing over £7 million over the next three years to support multiple policing bodies to help to tackle retail crime. As I have mentioned, we will continue to work closely with retailers and will utilise the lead-in time to best support them in preparing for and implementing the measures in the Bill. This will include government communications and information campaigns to inform both the public and retail workers.
The noble Baroness, Lady Fox, asked what assessment the Government have made of the impact on small businesses. Page 82 of the impact assessment specifically addresses this. As noble Lords are aware, an impact assessment should be expected and is required for any Bill. That means that the Regulatory Policy Committee also took a view; it published an opinion on the impact assessment and provided a fit-for-purpose rating. This included a green rating for the assessments of small and micro businesses’ assessments. I hope that will be useful.
I turn to Amendment 200A, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Howard. This would require the Government to create a financial assistance scheme specifically to subsidise the cost of purchasing age-verification technology to enforce on the sale of nicotine products. I heard the comments of the noble Baronesses, Lady Walmsley and Lady Bennett, who spoke against that amendment.
There are no plans to mandate the use of age-verification technologies to enforce the age of sale of nicotine products. It will be for businesses to decide how they ensure that they sell only to people 18 years or over, including whether to use age-verification technology to support them in this. As I mentioned earlier, as did the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, checking that a customer is over a certain age is a well-established and well-trodden path for retailers. They should continue to take reasonable steps and exercise due diligence to ensure that they do not sell products to anyone underage. Most retailers already follow recommended practice, and I am grateful to them; they regularly ask for identification from customers to verify their age.
To provide clarity for retailers on the types of ID that can be used, the Bill provides powers to specify in regulations the steps that may be taken to verify a customer’s age and satisfy the age of sale defence. This will include the types of digital identities that can be used, and work will continue with the Department for Science, Innovation and Technology, which is leading on this work. I emphasise that the Government are absolutely committed to supporting retailers through the changes brought in by this legislation, including through the publication of clear guidance in which they will be fully involved.
I hope that I have provided helpful reassurances and that the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw the amendment.
Earl Howe (Con)
My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken in this short debate, including the Minister for her reply. Perhaps I could repeat that my amendment was intended as a probe to raise a set of general concerns surrounding the retail sector. I was reassured by the Minister’s reply, including her references to the provisions of the Crime and Policing Bill. But we need to bear in mind, as we debate the Bill, that retailers are not the source of the problem that the Bill seeks to address—yet they will be the ones to lose out.
The Bill is projected to cost retailers more than £1 billion in profits over the next 30 years, plus what I am sure will be a considerable amount more from the reduced footfall that many will see over time. The noble Baroness, Lady Fox, was right: there is considerable worry in the sector, which is exacerbated by the uncertainty surrounding the timetable for the Bill’s implementation. It would be helpful, perhaps when we reach the next stage of the Bill, for the Minister to give us an idea of how the Government intend to proceed as regards the processes of consultation—consideration of submissions, as well as the actual implementation—and what the outline timetable will look like. The transition needs to be as inclusive and smooth as possible, and practical guidance and support will be essential, especially for small retailing businesses. I have no doubt that the Government have this in mind, but we may need to return to it on Report, just to underline the point. Meanwhile, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Earl Howe (Con)
My Lords, the Committee will be grateful to my noble friend, with his considerable experience in health policy, for the clear and cogent way in which he introduced his amendment. I am very supportive of the principles behind the amendment, as it seeks to ensure that decisions taken after the passage of the Bill are informed by robust, independent evidence and that Parliament is equipped with the relevant and authoritative information it needs to provide proper oversight of the regime for vaping and nicotine products, information that is constantly updated as the body of evidence evolves.
Critically, this principle applies equally to the Government. Proposed new subsection (5) in the amendment would require Ministers, when making regulations under the Act, to have regard to the proposed panel’s reports and recommendations. That is a sensible idea. My noble friend Lord Young of Cookham was right to remind us that there has for some time been a gap in the public health mechanisms regarding the production of such reports. If we were to recreate a mechanism of the kind suggested, the regulatory frame- work would evolve in response to the realities of science and the market rather than outdated information.
It is also important to recognise, as the amendment implicitly does, that although our primary concern here is health, regulation in this space cannot be viewed in isolation from the wider economy. When sales of currently legal products are restricted or prohibited, this inevitably impacts businesses, consumers and, sometimes, wider society, and those economic effects can themselves have unintended consequences for public health and people’s lives. There is also plenty of evidence of unintended consequences and the effectiveness of previous episodes of prohibition. The risk of a rise in consumption of illicit products is an obvious example, as is misinformation propounded on social media. The Government should make and review decisions with as clear a view as possible about those sorts of trade-offs.
For those reasons, I hope the Government will take on board the very sensible suggestion contained in this amendment.
Baroness Merron (Lab)
My Lords, I am most grateful for this debate, which concludes the work of the Committee. As I have said before, I certainly share the intention of the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, who tabled this amendment, to ensure that regulations are based on the best available evidence. I appreciate the consideration he has given to the amendment and the reason he put it forward.
I say in response that we continue to monitor emerging evidence, which we have much discussed, on vapes and nicotine products, including commissioning independent research through the National Institute for Health and Care Research. For example, we commissioned a comprehensive analysis of all youth vaping studies—referred to in the debate—which was published recently, and a five-year-long living evidence review that will collate the latest and most robust research into the health impact of vaping. This living evidence review is accompanied by a scientific advisory panel, which includes independent experts, appointed independently from the Government on merit, who the Government can call on for advice on the latest evidence. Further, as the noble Lord, Lord Young, mentioned, earlier this year we announced a landmark 10-year study that will include in its investigations the long-term health effects of vaping on young people’s health.
I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, that misperception of the harms of vaping is of concern; I take that point. Vaping absolutely can play a role in helping adult smokers to quit, as we have discussed, but children should not be vaping and nor should non-smokers. We are committed to carefully considering the scope of restrictions, to avoid unintended consequences and the misperception of harms, which is an area for further work.
We also fund a vaping expert panel, which provides valuable guidance for trading standards professionals on the enforcement of regulations. Under many of the powers in the Bill there is a requirement to consult before making regulations and, on 8 October, we published a call for evidence on issues where more evidence is needed before we can consult on specific proposals. We will monitor the impacts of measures brought in by the Bill and subsequent regulations. We will also be able to update regulations in future to ensure that policy is responsive to evolving evidence, should this be necessary.
It is our view that we have access to appropriate expert advice, which I know is the noble Lord’s intention, and we will consider the best available evidence in making regulations. I hope that he will feel able to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Lansley (Con)
My Lords, I am grateful to all those who contributed to the debate. It is both helpful and timely at the conclusion of Committee to have exactly this debate. In a funny way, perhaps we should have had it at the beginning, because it helped to fill out some of the details of the ways in which the evidence base for the vaping and nicotine product regime will be assessed and understood.
Tuesday 24th February 2026
(5 months, 2 weeks ago)
Lords ChamberTobacco and Vapes Act 2026 Read Hansard Text Watch Debate Amendment Paper: HL Bill 89-R-I(a) Amendments for Report (Supplementary to the Marshalled List) - (23 Feb 2026)
17:59 - Division on Amendment 1 - Ayes: 78 / Noes: 246 - Amendment 1 disagreed.
This text is a record of ministerial contributions to a debate held as part of the Tobacco and Vapes Act 2026 passage through Parliament.
In 1993, the House of Lords Pepper vs. Hart decision provided that statements made by Government Ministers may be taken as illustrative of legislative intent as to the interpretation of law.
This extract highlights statements made by Government Ministers along with contextual remarks by other members. The full debate can be read here
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
Lord Young of Cookham (Con)
My Lords, for the first time in my life, I will publicly disagree with my noble friend Lord Clarke. I will speak briefly but very strongly against this group of amendments, which would simply defeat the object of the Bill: to introduce a generational ban and achieve over time a smoke-free country.
Less than two years ago, a generational ban was the policy of a Conservative Government, and the then Prime Minister, Rishi Sunak, described it as one of his proudest initiatives. In that Parliament, on a free vote, the vast majority of Conservative Members of Parliament supported the Bill, as did 28 out of the 30 members of the Cabinet. All the arguments that we have heard this afternoon were put forward at that time, listened to and discounted. In this Parliament, the measure passed with a majority of 415 to 47, so it is fair to say that the Bill has broad cross-party support, and it is popular outside. It has a clear objective of reducing the burdens of smoking on the economy and the NHS.
I will leave it to others to deal with the argument about illicit tobacco and the Windsor Framework; I just want to tackle the libertarian argument, following the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Pannick. I listened to all the libertarian arguments when a Conservative Government made it compulsory for motorcyclists to wear crash helmets. We heard the arguments about well-informed adults being aware of the risks. Nobody would now reverse that piece of legislation. We heard the same arguments on compulsory seat belts. Both those measures were introduced by a Conservative Government. We heard the same arguments about smoking on public transport, on trains and in pubs. Yes, there is a libertarian argument, but in my view there is a much broader benefit in moving to a smoke-free country.
Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)
My Lords, I will speak in favour of the amendments tabled by my noble friend Lord Murray of Blidworth. I will concentrate on one narrow area—one of the practical aspects of this generational ban—which, as my noble friend Lord Clarke highlighted, is the inevitable difficulty of age verification in stores. I am sure the Minister will soon argue that age verification is a well-established practice and therefore should present no particular difficulty, but the implications of the Bill in a few years’ time are profound, as my noble friend noted.
Judging the difference between an 18 year-old and a 40 year-old by eye is not especially difficult—although at this point I note that there are a number of Peers on the Government Benches who regularly claim that even that is impossible in the case of asylum seekers. But how is a shopkeeper supposed to judge the precise age of someone who is apparently 40 years old in a few years’ time? Is he 40? Is he 39? Is he 40 in 364 days? I am sure that we will soon hear the argument that the point is actually somewhat moot, because that 40 year- old born after the 1 January 2009 will have never smoked or shown any desire to smoke because of the Bill. But that is simply not a credible argument. As my noble friend Lord Murray noted, the generational ban is a de facto prohibition, and one does not need to be a dedicated student of history to know that prohibition of any kind has never worked. Indeed, it serves to make whatever is being prohibited more desirable, more glamorous and more edgy. Plenty of people will still choose to smoke.
In effect, the state will therefore be asking shopkeepers to both comply with and police the law at the same time. To put some statistics around this, the Association of Convenience Stores represents 50,000 local shops, petrol forecourt sites and independent retailers across all locations. Last year, it reported that there were 57,000 incidents of violence against people working in convenience stores. Some 87% of store workers reported verbal abuse and 44% reported hate-motivated abuse. The top three triggers of this violence epidemic were encountering shop thieves, enforcing age restriction policies and refusing to serve intoxicated customers. Does the Minister think this will get any better when the shopkeeper has to ask two middle-aged men for their passports—or, indeed, an 85 year-old for his birth certificate?
Today, I read that the British Retail Consortium has reported that there were 1,600 incidents of violence and abuse per day in shops in the year 2024-25. That is down from the previous year, but it is still a staggering number. It is welcome that the Crime and Policing Bill will make assaulting a retail worker an aggravated offence, but that is, I contend, highly unlikely to make any difference at all to the number of incidents around age verification, which are inevitable. I am sure the Minister will also refer to the increase in police numbers and neighbourhood policing officers due by 2029. That is also welcome, of course, but I note that the previous Government bequeathed more police officers than ever before in this country, and that did not have a noticeable impact. The simple fact is that this measure will inevitably cause more trouble, and the Government will be unable to do much about that. It is ludicrous to pass a law that will provoke the breaking of other laws.
My noble friend Lord Murray’s amendments would achieve the Government’s aims without causing this needless aggravation. The Government’s own impact assessment states that a one-off increase in the age of sale to 21 would be just as effective in the short term at reducing smoking rates, compared with a generational smoking ban. The Government should change tack and accept my noble friend Lord Murray’s amendments.
Lord Rennard (Non-Afl)
My Lords, I oppose Amendment 1 and the associated amendments tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Murray of Blidworth, because I believe wholeheartedly that a country free from the harms of tobacco would transform the public health of this nation and prevent huge amounts of human suffering. We heard from the noble Lord about the reversal of the planned policy in New Zealand, but we did not hear an explanation for that. The explanation is quite simple: there was a change of coalition parties following a general election. One of the new coalition parties feared the drop in revenue to the Government as a result of the policy being introduced and a reduction in the prevalence of tobacco smoking, which surely proves the point that that party accepted that such policies as this would be effective.
We have heard about the wonderful, kind-spirited nature of the tobacco industry in caring for young people, but not enough about the many decades of deceit, in which that industry knew full well the links between its products and lung cancer, and covered up what it knew and lied about them, as it lied about tobacco smoking of a second-hand nature. This is not an industry which we can trust for a remote second.
Earl Howe (Con)
My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Murray for his amendments in this group and all noble Lords for their contributions to this important and lively debate.
Reducing smoking rates and, in particular, preventing young people from taking up tobacco, with its highly damaging and pernicious consequences, are goals that I believe command broad support across the House. My noble friend’s amendments present us with an opportunity to settle in our minds the best way those goals might be achieved. From our debates in Committee and again today, we know there is a dichotomy of views on that.
My noble friend has eloquently made the case for substantially lifting the age of sale such that the legal purchase of tobacco by anyone under the age of 21 would be rendered impossible. The Government, on the other hand, have proposed the much more radical step of initiating a complete ban on tobacco sales to anyone born after 1 January 2009, thus creating, year by year, a wider and wider cohort of individuals for whom access to cigarettes and other tobacco products in shops will be legally barred.
Neither of these proposals, whether that of my noble friend or that of the Government, provides an absolute block on young would-be smokers accessing tobacco; so long as cigarettes remain a legal product, nothing could. However, if the generational ban can be made to work as intended, there can surely be no doubt that the benefits to public health over the long term will be immense. My right honourable friend the previous Prime Minister arrived at that realisation during the last Government, and the present Government have seen fit to agree with him.
There are two main arguments against the generational ban: one relates to civil liberties; the other is that of practical workability. I will not repeat the points that have been made on those themes, but I acknowledge that what is proposed in the Bill is, by any standards, without precedent in our consumer law. For the first time, a permanent legal distinction will be drawn between two adults based solely on their date of birth. One person may lawfully purchase a legal product while another, perhaps a year younger, may not. This would be not because of any difference in capacity or circumstance but purely by virtue of when they were born. The question people ask is whether in a free country that is right.
Following on from that are the questions around enforcement and general practicability. There are major questions around verification. As the years go by, shopkeepers will need to satisfy themselves that the person in front of them seeking to buy tobacco is 42 as opposed to 41, and so on. That does seem very different from a straightforward age of sale cut-off, which is a rule that everybody understands. Would shops and customers get used to this rigmarole? How easy would it be? As my noble friend rightly said, a number of countries have chosen to adopt the course that he is advocating rather than the generational ban.
I must, however, declare my hand. This Bill, as I have said, is an opportunity—an opportunity to make a transformational change in an area of public health that successive Governments have agreed is one of the two or three most important and far-reaching in our midst. Indeed, I would say that it is the most important. I do not think that the civil liberties arguments stand up to scrutiny for very long when we are talking about the chance of preventing serious ill health across millions of our population. Smoking needs to be made deeply unfashionable. My noble friend’s amendments, although entirely well meant, are unlikely to achieve that scale of health benefits nor that kind of attitudinal change.
There is uncertainty in whatever we decide to do. I am content for my noble friends on these Benches to make up their own minds on these matters. My noble friend, whom I greatly respect, will urge colleagues to join him in the Lobbies if he chooses to divide the House. At the same time, I hope he will understand that it ill behoves me, as my party’s spokesman for health and social care and as a former Health Minister, to pass up what I see as a golden opportunity to do something imaginative and radical, which is why I support the Government in their excellent ambitions.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Baroness Merron) (Lab)
My Lords, I am most grateful for the contributions to this debate. I think we can safely say that there is no unanimity of view, as a number of noble Lords have commented. I am particularly grateful for the support from both Front Benches, as has been consistent throughout. I am also grateful for the support of a number of noble Lords, including the noble Lords, Lord Pannick, Lord Young, Lord Rennard, Lord Stevens and Lord Bethell, and the noble Baroness, Lady Gerada, and others.
Earl Howe (Con)
My Lords, I begin by thanking my noble friends Lord Moylan and Lord Udny-Lister for their amendments in this group. I welcome the fact that the Government have accepted my noble friend Lord Moylan’s amendments and congratulate my noble friend on pressing the point.
Turning to the amendment in the name of my noble friend Lord Udny-Lister, I will pick up the cogent points made by the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, because this brings us to the broader question of age verification. Our debates in Committee demonstrated the genuine concerns among retailers that a strict “no ID, no sale” policy could become a serious flashpoint for violence and abuse directed at shop workers—an issue that, I am sure the Minister will agree, cannot be dismissed lightly. There is also a risk of confusion among customers, particularly where different age thresholds already apply across tobacco, alcohol and other age-restricted products; any new requirement must not add to that complexity. The process for purchasing these products should remain clear and readily understood by all members of the public and, crucially, shopkeepers.
Against that background, it would be extraordinary if technology were not to play a part in making that process easier and less potentially fraught. Can the Minister tell us anything about the cost and affordability of such technology? What specific consideration was given to these concerns during the Government’s consultations, and what assessment has been made of the potential impact on retail workers of what could become a cumbersome and confusing set of procedures with, as I have said, the added risk of threats and abuse to shopkeepers? At the very least, is any guidance planned to ensure that new verification requirements do not create a patchwork of conflicting obligations at the point of sale?
Baroness Merron (Lab)
My Lords, I am grateful for the contributions to this short debate. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, for bringing back Amendments 3 and 12, which would change from negative to affirmative the procedure for making regulations to specify steps that may be taken to verify the age of customers.
In Committee I committed to returning with the Government’s response to the recommendations made by the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee. We have carefully considered those recommendations and listened to the support within your Lordships’ House, and I can confirm that we are accepting the recommendations in full. Therefore, as noble Lords have observed, I have—I think we can say unusually—put my name to the amendments from the noble Lord, Lord Moylan. I can only counsel the noble Lord not to get used to it. I am very pleased to support his Amendments 3 and 12.
I have tabled government Amendment 105. For consistency, I have also tabled Amendment 110 to Clause 76, which is an equivalent amendment that provides the power to specify age-verification steps for Northern Ireland.
Amendment 26, tabled in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Udny-Lister, would require the Secretary of State to establish a financial assistance scheme for the acquisition of age-verification technology by producers and retailers of nicotine products. I absolutely understand that the noble Lord’s aim is to support retailers—something that I hope the noble Lord heard me saying on behalf of the Government—and to strengthen adherence to age restriction laws. But I say to the noble Lord and the noble Baroness, Lady Fox—it is important to clarify this point—that the Government have no plans to mandate the use of age-verification technologies to enforce age of sale.
Checking that a customer is over the age of sale is a well-established concept for retailers, and they should continue to take reasonable steps and exercise due diligence to ensure that they do not sell age-restricted products to anyone underage. To provide clarity for retailers on the types of ID that they can use, the Bill provides powers to specify in regulations the steps that may be taken to verify a customer’s age. This includes the types of digital identities that can be used.
On some of the points raised by the noble Earl, Lord Howe—I know that other noble Lords are, rightly, concerned about this—I confirm once again that the Government will work with the retail sector, as we are already doing, to publish clear, workable guidance to support it with these legislative changes. With that, I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Udny-Lister, understands the Government’s position, and I encourage noble Lords to support Amendments 3, 12, 105 and 110.
Lord Moylan (Con)
My Lords, I am grateful to noble Lords who have spoken in this short debate. Concerning the debate about enforcement, as somebody who in the past had political responsibility for trading standards in a local authority, which is the mechanism by which enforcement of underage tobacco sales is achieved, and having sat through the whole of Report so far this afternoon, I am surprised that there has been no mention of trading standards. Perhaps we will get to this later, but trading standards will need some help as well, because a considerable burden is going to be placed on it if this mechanism of a generational age limit is to go ahead. With that, I am grateful for the support for my Amendment 3.
Earl Howe (Con)
My Lords, I will speak to my Amendments 13A and 14A only as a means of thanking the Minister very much for her Amendments 14 and 15 in this group. As a number of us argued in Committee, including in particular my noble friend Lord Moylan, there is a strong case for saying that, in a secure mental health setting where staff often find themselves dealing with patients in a high state of agitation, a vending machine dispensing vapes or nicotine products not only would do no harm but could be of considerable benefit to the well-being of the individuals being treated, and potentially to staff as well, as a knock-on effect. I am very glad that the Minister felt able to reconsider this issue in the way that she has.
I confess I am troubled by Amendment 7 in the name of the noble Earl, Lord Russell, because, although its stated purpose is to future-proof the Bill, the signal that it sends is perhaps regrettable in the context of current public attitudes towards vaping as a means of quitting cigarettes. A substantial percentage both of the general public and of smokers mistakenly believe that vapes present a greater risk to health than smoking tobacco, extraordinary as that is. The NHS is unequivocal that vapes provide a far safer route to managing nicotine addiction than continuing to smoke. The prospect that they could at a later stage simply be swept into the same prohibition regime risks creating uncertainty, discouraging switching and undermining public health gains. We need to remember that the Bill already contains extensive regulation-making powers in respect of vaping and nicotine products—on advertising, flavours, packaging, display and sale—and those powers are wide-ranging and substantial. So adding a further power of this breadth is, I suggest, unnecessary overreach.
I am afraid that I think Amendment 16 is unnecessary as well. The Bill already contains extensive powers to regulate vaping products, from product standards and enforcement to environmental controls. The Government are already consulting widely and gathering evidence in these areas, and I am afraid I do not think there is any need for the creation of yet another statutory taskforce.
Baroness Merron (Lab)
My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who have contributed to this debate. The Chief Medical Officer’s advice on vapes is quite clear: although vaping is less harmful than smoking and can be an effective quit aid for adult smokers, non-smokers and children should never vape. In the design of policy proposals, it is imperative, we feel, to get the balance right—I say this to noble Lords who raised this point—and we sought to get the balance right between protecting future generations from the risk of vaping and ensuring that vapes remain accessible for adult smokers. I hope the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, in particular will welcome that.
Amendment 7 from the noble Earl, Lord Russell, would add a new clause to the Bill to provide a regulation-making power that could be used to add vaping and nicotine products to the smoke-free generation provisions in England and Wales. I understand the aims of the noble Earl in bringing this forward, but I have to say—again, I hope this will be helpful to noble Lords who expressed concerns—that there is a fundamental difference in safety between vapes and tobacco products.
Tobacco is uniquely harmful. Up to two-thirds of deaths in current smokers can be attributed to smoking —so vaping, while it is not harm free, is significantly less harmful than smoking. Given the current research on health harms, the evidence base does not support extending smoke-free generation provisions to vapes or to nicotine products.
Also, to respond to the amendment, the Government should assume new powers only where there is clear justification for future regulatory change. Certainly, introducing a vape-free generation power, as suggested, would be a major step not currently supported by evidence. An age of sale restriction of 18 for vaping and nicotine products is therefore considered proportionate to protect children and young people, particularly as they may be more susceptible to the risks from nicotine use, including addiction.
On Amendment 16 from the noble Earl, Lord Russell, and to the points raised alongside this by the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, I hope that I can provide a reassurance that the Government are already delivering a comprehensive programme to tackle youth vaping, strengthen enforcement and reduce environmental impacts, and have the relevant expertise required on these issues. It is our contention that it is not necessary to put this on a statutory footing.
The noble Earl, Lord Russell, as did the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, asked how we would deal with the environmental impact of vapes. That is an extremely important area. What I can say is, as part of our upcoming circular economy growth plan, to which the noble Earl referred, the task force will consider circular design. That means including cross-government approaches such as would fit this Bill; it will consider regulation of product features and support increased recyclability—and I think that is the right place for it to be dealt with. We have to remember that last June we banned the sale and supply of single-use vapes, and from 1 October this year we will introduce a vaping products duty, which we know is effective at dissuading price-sensitive young people. Furthermore, we have a range of measures in this Bill that will tackle the drivers of youth vaping and allow us to take action on advertising, packaging, flavours and display. To support the development of future regulations, importantly, we have recently conducted a call for evidence to gather views on issues such as flavours, nicotine limits and tank sizes. There are differing opinions on all of these, so I think the call for evidence is the right approach.
The Bill also strengthens enforcement with powers that will enable us to introduce a licensing scheme and product registration scheme. Through our £10 million enforcement programme with National Trading Standards, which I referred to in the previous group, we will fund the vaping expert panel to provide valuable guidance for trading standards professionals on the enforcement of regulations.
We are also commissioning independent research through the National Institute for Health and Care Research. This includes a comprehensive analysis of all youth vaping studies and a five-year long living evidence review that will collate the latest research of vaping. Additionally, last year, we announced a landmark 10-year study that will include in its investigations the long-term health impacts of vaping on young people’s health. I consider that all these will greatly build on to the knowledge base and evidence base that we have.
Amendments 13A and 14A, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Kamall, seek to exempt sales from vape vending machines in mental health hospitals for patients and staff aged 18 and over. I am very grateful to the noble Lord for raising this issue. As I am sure the noble Lord realises, we believe that the Government’s amendment covers what he is intending to achieve—and I am glad that he is indicating his agreement on that point.
I listened carefully to the concerns raised by noble Lords in Committee on patients in mental health facilities—something particularly close to my heart, as I am the Minister for Mental Health. These patients’ liberties may be restricted in terms of their being able to access vaping products to meet the public health need of helping them to quit smoking or manage nicotine addiction. Adults with a long-term mental health condition have much higher smoking prevalence rates than the general population, and this exemption takes into consideration the concerns that were raised by Peers, for which I am grateful, related to helping those people with a long-term mental health condition to quit where needed and it is appropriate.
In my reflection on these concerns, I am pleased to say that is why I have brought forward government Amendments 14 and 15, and I am very pleased to have the welcome of both Front Benches, as well as the noble Baronesses, Lady Bennett and Lady Fox. These government amendments provide an exemption from the ban on vape vending machines for adult mental health in-patient facilities in England and Wales. To be clear, the wording of the exemption has been very deliberately chosen. It is tightly defined to include only adult mental health in-patient settings and only in areas intended wholly or mainly for in-patients. By its nature, that means that staff will also be able to access these machines, but the exemption would not extend to areas that are not mainly for in-patient use, such as a visitors waiting room or a staff room. I hope that gives some indication to the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, on how this might work.
We are retaining the wider ban on vending machines to prevent young people from accessing age-restricted products, and to protect the next generation from being hooked on nicotine. I hope that this provides the necessary reassurance to the noble Earl, Lord Russell, and that he will feel able to withdraw his amendment.
Earl Russell (LD)
My Lords, I am thankful for all those who have spoken in this debate and for the Minister’s detailed response.
On government Amendments 14 and 15, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Kamall, for bringing the issue forward, and I am grateful to the Minister for listening and bringing forward the Government’s own amendments. As the Minister has commented, they have been welcomed across the House; they are compassionate and sensible measures, so they are very welcome indeed.
On my Amendment 7, I tried to explain the journey that I had been on in terms of a general purpose clause. It might be that the wording of my amendment was still a little bit clunky. I want to be absolutely clear: it is not a relentless attack on nicotine, and I am not anti-vaping. The question is where we draw the line on these issues, which is probably for another Bill in future. I absolutely recognise the role of vaping in smoking cessation, but what I do not want is a new product line for big tobacco to create new nicotine addicts and to create future revenue. Where we sit between those two points is perhaps a matter for another Bill, but those issues will at some point need to be addressed. That should not be done in a way that is overly restrictive, but it should also not be done in a way that is overly free in allowing big tobacco to exploit young people and get them addicted to nicotine when that does not need to happen.
Turning to my Amendment 16, I listened to what the Minister said and I welcome the fact that the Circular Economy Taskforce is looking at these issues. We will look at those recommendations closely when they come forward. The Government say they have banned single-use disposable vapes. I must admit that, to my mind, to all intents and purposes, in the real world that is simply not the case. They are still single-use products. All that being said, I welcome the Minister’s response and I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.
Baroness Merron (Lab)
My Lords, I am most grateful for the contributions to this debate. I will start by addressing the government amendments tabled in my name. The issue of filters, as we have heard in this debate, has been raised throughout the Bill’s passage, both in the other place and in Committee in your Lordships’ House. As the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, said, action on filters has been proposed by parties from across the political spectrum.
However, there has not been a consensus on a single approach, and it is that that we have sought to deal with. That is why we are taking a suite of powers to enable secondary legislation to regulate filters, should evidence suggest that it is necessary. Although these powers could enable the banning of filters in the future, they also enable us to regulate filters in other ways, such as regulating their packaging, advertising, display in stores and free distribution.
As the noble Lord, Lord Young, referred to, there is evidence that people incorrectly believe that some cigarette filters make cigarettes less harmful. There is absolutely a risk that this could influence smoking behaviours. The fact of the matter is that cigarette filters provide no protection from the health risks of smoking.
The noble Earl, Lord Russell, asked about the Government’s intention to take action. On that point, and more broadly, the evidence base about the direct health impact is still in formation. We will explore commissioning further research to understand the harms and, based on that, consider further consultation. For these reasons, we are not able to accept Amendment 76 from the noble Earl.
Since we are taking these powers on filters in the Bill, Amendment 77, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, and Amendment 17A, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, are therefore not required—a point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Kamall. Should we choose to ban filters, we would indeed be the first country in the world to do so. It would be a significant step, and noble Lords will understand that, before making any such decision, we need to interrogate the issue fully and ensure that all potential consequences are considered. However, we will now have the powers to act through these government amendments if and when the evidence emerges.
Specifically on Amendment 17A, evidence currently suggests that filters labelled as biodegradable can still leach harmful chemicals into the environment, as the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, said. There is also evidence to suggest that people who believe that cigarette butts are biodegradable are more likely to litter them, as noble Lords have said.
I turn to Amendment 10, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Northover. I am sympathetic towards attempts to increase transparency of the tobacco industry. I therefore understand why she brought this forward. However, Clause 95 already provides powers to make regulations that could require producers or importers to provide specified information. This could include sales data, as well as market research, from producers of any relevant products within the scope of Part 5, not just tobacco products. This clause also enables us to make provision about when and how the information must be provided, and the publication of any such information. I reassure the noble Baroness that we will consult on these requirements as we develop the necessary regulations.
I am sympathetic to the aims of Amendment 204, tabled in the names of the noble Earl, Lord Russell, and the noble Lords, Lord Young of Cookham and Lord Crisp. However, as I said in Committee, again in answer to the point the noble Earl raised, we already have a “polluter pays” tax on tobacco in the form of tobacco duties. The UK has some of the highest tobacco taxes in the world. Duty rates on all tobacco products were increased by 2% above inflation at the Autumn Budget 2025. This duty raises about £8 billion a year.
I appreciate that the amendment proposes combining a levy with regulating prices, but the reality is that, because of the ongoing structural decline in the UK tobacco market, we are sceptical that there is the suggested level of profit available in the system. Regulating pricing would also be a complicated and resource-intensive policy to design and implement, and which we believe is unlikely to be successful in meeting its objectives, such as raising additional revenue. It would be challenging to design restrictions that industry could not circumvent, for example, by shifting focus to products not included in the cap or avoiding tax through international transfer pricing. Therefore, as I stated previously, our preference is to continue with tobacco duties—an understood approach which incentivises those who currently smoke to quit and generates revenue that can be put back into a full range of public services.
Finally, Amendments 129 and 133 were tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Rennard. I am grateful for the noble Lord’s support for strong tobacco control. However, with respect to these amendments, we already have the ability to regulate the information provided on products which could enable us to mandate health warnings in the future. We already have some of the most stringent regulations in the world on cigarette packaging, emphasising health harms. They include the requirement for plain packaging and graphic picture warnings on the outside of cigarette packets. We have announced that we are introducing pack inserts to cigarettes and hand-rolling tobacco. Therefore, we do not plan to introduce dissuasive cigarettes. However, as the noble Lord, Lord Rennard, did acknowledge in his contribution, the Government will continue to monitor the evidence.
I hope that this provides reassurance to noble Lords that the Government are committed to evidence-based policy to tackle the harms from tobacco use and that the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, will feel able to withdraw her amendment.
Baroness Northover (LD)
My Lords, this is a vital Bill, even if we are seeking to improve it further. We have clearly made progress on filters and there are a number of other areas where progress can be made under the Bill. I note the Minister’s encouraging words in relation to my amendment on data and transparency. In the light of that, I beg leave to withdraw.
Tuesday 24th February 2026
(5 months, 2 weeks ago)
Lords ChamberTobacco and Vapes Act 2026 Read Hansard Text Watch Debate Amendment Paper: HL Bill 89-R-I(a) Amendments for Report (Supplementary to the Marshalled List) - (23 Feb 2026)
This text is a record of ministerial contributions to a debate held as part of the Tobacco and Vapes Act 2026 passage through Parliament.
In 1993, the House of Lords Pepper vs. Hart decision provided that statements made by Government Ministers may be taken as illustrative of legislative intent as to the interpretation of law.
This extract highlights statements made by Government Ministers along with contextual remarks by other members. The full debate can be read here
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
Lord Kamall (Con)
My Lords, my noble friend has tabled a number of amendments on heated tobacco products. Although there may be some concern about what is behind them, they raise important questions that I am afraid the Government have yet to answer with any real precision.
As I noted in Committee, there appears to be some evidence that individuals who switched from conventional cigarettes to heated tobacco products show lower levels of exposure to harmful chemicals than those who continue smoking. I am just comparing them to cigarettes, not to vapes. To be clear, I do not suggest that this settles the question of harm—these are relatively new products, and the long-term evidence base is still developing—but it means that the Government cannot simply treat heated tobacco products as interchangeable with conventional cigarettes without explaining why they refuse to consider their relative harm compared to cigarettes. I am talking about not absolute harm, but relative harm.
There is also the practical question of where these products may be used. The position on indoor and outdoor spaces remains, as far as I can tell, unclear. Heated tobacco does not produce combustion or sidestream smoke in the conventional sense, and yet it is not obvious from the Bill how the Government intend to address that distinction—if they intend to address it at all.
More fundamentally, can the Minister explain what specific evidence underpins the decision to include heated tobacco in the generational ban? I am sure all noble Lords accept that current evidence shows that vapes are relatively safer than smoking. It may be that vapes are relatively safer than heated tobacco, but as yet, we have not seen definitive evidence. Unfortunately, as noble Lords have said, much of the research on heated tobacco is funded by the tobacco industry. I can understand the concern there. I hope the Minister will correct me if I am wrong, but there is no definitive independent research on the relative harms of heated tobacco. If there is definitive research, can the Minister write to noble Lords with links to the relevant academic papers? I think we saw one link to a meta study that was not very good, but there has been no meaningful in-depth research.
This reminds me of a conversation I had with a friend, who told me that when they tried vapes to quit smoking, it unfortunately did not do the job for them. When they went back to their doctor, he said that he was not supposed to do this, but he suggested heated tobacco as a relatively less harmful alternative. While he hoped his patient might have switched from cigarettes to vapes, since this had not happened—we do not live in a perfect world—he preferred his patient to use heated tobacco to going back to cigarettes. Once again, this was a practical approach based on relative harms.
I completely understand the concern that, if we overpromote heated tobacco, we might find that smokers switch to it rather than vapes. Given that the policy rationale rests substantially on reducing harm—we should be looking at absolute harm and relative harm— I would welcome clarity on whether the Government are satisfied that the case for treating heated tobacco like cigarettes is proven. It will be interesting to see that distinction between heated tobacco and cigarettes. Is the science still sufficiently uncertain to warrant a more cautious approach?
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Baroness Merron) (Lab)
My Lords, I appreciate the contributions made in this debate. I will start by addressing government Amendments 217, 218 and 219, tabled in my name; I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, for her support.
The Bill updates the definition of a tobacco product in legislation relating to promotion and advertising, and in Scottish legislation, to
“a product consisting wholly or partly of tobacco and intended to be smoked, sniffed, sucked, chewed or consumed in any other way”.
Those last few words,
“consumed in any other way”,
are the key ones. What does this definition do? It ensures that all forms of tobacco products, regardless of how they are consumed, are captured by this legislation, including—this is important to the points raised by noble Lords—any future novel tobacco products.
These amendments bring forward the commencement of this updated definition to the day of Royal Assent, rather than two months after Royal Assent. That is because the Government’s view is that all tobacco products currently on the market are already captured in the current definition, so it is appropriate for this future-proofing amendment to come into force at Royal Assent because there is no change to the law for which notice would be required.
Amendments tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Udny-Lister, seek to redefine how heated tobacco products are captured within the Bill so that they are no longer treated in the same way as other tobacco products. These amendments also seek to prevent provisions being extended to heated tobacco devices in the future.
On the points raised by the noble Lord, as well as by the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, and the noble Lord, Lord Kamall, the Bill deliberately defines tobacco products expansively and includes heated tobacco. The reason for that is that there is no safe level of tobacco consumption and all forms of tobacco are harmful.
On the points raised about evidence, there is evidence of toxicity from heated tobacco in laboratory studies; the aerosol generated by heated tobacco devices contains carcinogenic compounds. Unlike vapes, there is limited evidence that heated tobacco can support smoking cessation, despite what is claimed by the tobacco industry. On the matters of evidence raised by the noble Lord, Lord Kamall, and the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, as has been set out by all four UK Chief Medical Officers in a technical note to noble Lords, any suggestion that heated tobacco products are safe or should be promoted as quit aids in some way is entirely misleading.
I say to the noble Lord, Lord Kamall, that, through the National Institute for Health and Care Research, we are funding high-quality research into tobacco products. Between 2020 and 2025, £25 million was invested in a NIHR research programme to research tobacco control, and that will help us develop the evidence base. Exempting heated tobacco products from the smoke-free generation policy and other provisions in the Bill would simply allow the tobacco industry to continue to find a way to addict future generations to harmful and addictive products. The Bill is completely geared to go the other way.
The noble Lord, Lord Kamall, asked about heated-tobacco-free places. We will return to the whole issue of tobacco-free places when we come to group 16, so I am sure that that will be debated then. I hope that I have been able to clarify the Government’s position for noble Lords, and that the noble Lord, Lord Udny-Lister, will feel able to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Kamall (Con)
Before the Minister sits down, she talked about research that was done on tobacco products between 2020 and 2025. In that time, was any specific research done on heated tobacco as part of tobacco products?
Baroness Merron (Lab)
The specific definition is “tobacco control research”, so it would be strange if it did not include what we know about already, which includes heated tobacco. I will be glad to confirm that to the noble Lord in writing.
Lord Udny-Lister (Con)
I thank the Minister for her reassurances, although I am afraid that I do not agree with her. However, I accept that we have taken this as far as we can. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Baroness Merron
“(1A) But subsection (1) does not apply in relation to a vape vending machine made available for use in a mental health hospital if the machine is in an area that is intended wholly or mainly for inpatients.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment creates an exception to the offence of having management or control of premises on which a vape vending machine is made available for use. It applies where the vending machine is in a mental health hospital in an area intended wholly or mainly for inpatients.
Baroness Merron
““mental health hospital” means an institution (or part of an institution) maintained wholly or mainly for the reception and treatment of inpatients who—(a) are aged 18 or over, and(b) are suffering from mental disorder (within the meaning of the Mental Health Act 1983);”Member’s explanatory statement
This is consequential on my first amendment to clause 12.
Lord Kamall (Con)
My Lords, my noble friends Lord Moylan and Lord Udny-Lister benefited this debate by coming forward with their amendments in this group based on their extensive experience in local government. I warmly welcome Amendment 17; counterfeiting nicotine products is not a victimless crime. It undercuts legitimate businesses that are already operating under considerable regulatory and financial pressure.
Let us be clear that the cumulative burden placed on small businesses, regulatory or otherwise, is already substantial. These businesses, as other noble Lords have said, are already playing by the rules. They pay their taxes and comply with an ever-increasing, complex regulatory framework. It is simply not fair that they should find themselves undercut by operators selling counterfeit products outside that framework entirely.
Beyond the commercial harm, there is a serious consumer safety dimension. Counterfeit nicotine products are unregulated, untested and potentially dangerous. I ask the Minister to confirm that the Government share the view that the robust criminal penalties for counterfeiting are not only appropriate but essential. I would be grateful to hear what steps are being taken to ensure that enforcement capacity exists to make sure that these penalties are meaningful.
At earlier stages of the Bill, I know there were some concerns about the capacity of trading standards, for example. The sum that the Government have made available for local trading standards is to be welcomed, but some still wonder whether it will be enough or whether it is a drop in the ocean.
My noble friend Lord Udny-Lister’s amendments reflect a sensible approach to fixed penalty notices. A step penalty structure that treats a first offence differently from repeated non-compliance is surely right. While some local authorities may already have discretion to issue a warning instead of a fixed penalty for first-time offenders, as my noble friend has raised, it is important that first-time offenders are not treated unduly harshly given the complexity of some of the regulations that these small retailers will have to face. I hope the Minister, if she feels that she cannot accept the amendments as they stand, can say some positive things about them.
Baroness Merron (Lab)
My Lords, this has been a helpful debate on an issue that concerns us all in this Chamber.
On Amendment 17 tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, I agree with his desire to take robust action against counterfeit products—I am sure we all do—but I cannot accept the amendment simply because I do not believe it is necessary, not because of specific objections. I heard his invitation for me to continue as I started, but, unfortunately, I cannot do so for this amendment. We believe it is not necessary, as referred to by the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, because protections against trademark infringement are already a matter for existing legislation.
On the point about necessary legislation addressing counterfeit products, which I accept, I say to the noble Lord and the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, that the Trade Marks Act 1994, as we have heard, already provides significant penalties for breaching these rules. They include: on summary conviction, imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months or a fine not exceeding the statutory maximum, or both; or, on conviction on indictment, a fine or imprisonment for a term not exceeding 10 years, or both. These are significant penalties.
Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-Afl)
In terms of duplication, I argued on the Crime and Policing Bill that it was probably not necessary to legislate for assaulting a shop worker to be against the law, as assaulting anyone is. I asked why there was a specific point about shop and retail workers and was told that this would make a special case of shop workers to emphasise their vulnerability. The point about duplicating laws has never held the Government back before, because they keep doing it.
Baroness Merron (Lab)
I must admit that I have a different view. Where we already have legislation covering the specific points we are talking about, as we have here with the Trade Marks Act 1994, there is no reason to go further. The legislation is already working. It is fair to raise the example that the noble Baroness gave, but I do not share her view on that duplication, as it was important specifically to identify shop workers. Maybe we just need to disagree on the duplication or otherwise of legislation.
While trademark protection is not a matter for the Bill, powers in Part 5 will enable the Government to introduce regulations relating to packaging, product safety and product registration. Those who breach these regulations following their implementation may face significant penalties of up to two years’ imprisonment, a fine or both. The penalties broadly mirror the penalties provided by the noble Lord’s amendment, albeit I accept he proposes a slightly higher maximum term of imprisonment of three years instead of two.
The noble Lord, Lord Moylan, raised legitimate points about the scale of the illicit market and also potential connections to other illegal activities. On that point, HMRC and Border Force’s joint illicit tobacco strategy sets out the continued commitment to tackle and disrupt the organised crime groups behind the illicit tobacco trade, a commitment supported by over £100 million of new funding.
Lord Kamall (Con)
My Lords, my noble friend Lord Lindsay’s excellent and persuasive arguments in support of the amendments in his name and that of the noble Lord, Lord Mendelsohn, who is not in his place, cannot be bettered, so I shall not try to, except to say that I support them.
Regardless of one’s attitude to smoking, there is a general recognition of the important role that specialist tobacconists play. They are small, highly regulated businesses that serve a discerning adult clientele. They are not engaged in the mass-marketing of cigarettes, nor are they driving youth uptake. Specifically, handmade cigars are not cigarillos. Premium handmade cigars are luxury products, purchased occasionally at a considerable cost by informed adult consumers. I was surprised to learn in Committee that they attract overseas visitors, who spend huge amounts of money here in the UK because these handmade cigars are packaged and marketed in a way that is unique to the United Kingdom. It is difficult to see how such establishments constitute a meaningful threat to the Government’s stated objective of reducing youth smoking and creating a smoke-free generation.
I stress that many of the criticisms made of cigars are made of cigarillos, but it is important that we distinguish between cigarillos and the unique products that are artisan cigars, whatever one thinks of them. I do not smoke; I think smoking is a disgusting habit. I do not drink alcohol; I think drinking alcohol is a terrible thing. But I am a liberal and I do not seek to impose my views on other people. It is important to distinguish between handmade crafted cigars and mass-marketed cigarillos, which may well be attractive to young people. I believe that cigarillos should be seen in the same light as cigarettes.
Since the introduction of the Bill, there has obviously been enormous anxiety among specialist tobacconists around the country about what the Government might choose to do to their day-to-day businesses. These amendments will, I hope, provide the Minister with an opportunity to reassure the sector. There is real concern that if plain packaging regulations were to be imposed on hand-rolled cigars, this would constitute an almost instant death for every specialist tobacco business. We heard about other countries where plain packaging has been imposed, but the UK continues to attract people who want to buy the packaging and all the marketing around it, whatever we may think of it.
For the good reasons already stated, these businesses enjoy special dispensations from the provisions of the law which apply to the generality of tobacco retailing. These dispensations are well founded, well understood and respected across the supply chain. As far as I am aware, they have not been abused. Many of the complaints about the uptake of cigar smoking are in relation not to these types of cigars but to cigarillos. This area of tobacco retailing is so niche that it is irrelevant to the vast majority of smokers. There is no reasonable case for the Government to choose to exercise powers to impede, restrict or otherwise alter the day-to-day lives of those involved in this specialist sector.
To be clear, I am talking about packaging. I am not referring to any of the amendments concerned with cigar lounges. I understand the concerns that have been expressed about workers who may not wish to be exposed to cigars but have no choice but to take that job and be exposed. I am talking about specialist tobacco manufacturers and retailers. Obviously, any attempts to restrict these businesses would involve some consultation with the Department for Business and Trade, so I sincerely hope that the Minister will be able to confirm that the Government have no intentions to restrict the specialist manufacturers in this way and to make their businesses unviable.
Baroness Merron (Lab)
My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who have contributed to this debate. On Amendments 127 and 147, tabled by the noble Earl, Lord Lindsay, and Amendment 126, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, I have listened to the points that have been raised by noble Lords, not just today in the Chamber but in engaging outside the Chamber, which I have been pleased to do, and I have listened to the calls for handmade cigars to be exempt from packaging provisions in this legislation.
I remind the House, as I have had to remind noble Lords in other discussions, that the powers to regulate the packaging of all tobacco products are not new; they already exist. They were first introduced under the coalition Government as part of the Children and Families Act 2014. At the time when the powers were introduced, the Government of the time rightly recognised the need to ensure that these powers applied to all tobacco products, future-proofing the legislation, so introducing an exemption for handmade cigars now would weaken what is in effect long-standing legislation. I remind noble Lords that one of the points about the Bill is to bring together legislation that is in other areas into a Tobacco and Vapes Bill, which is what we are doing.
As I have said on a number of occasions, all tobacco products are harmful. That includes cigars and those marketed as premium or handmade. When burned, all tobacco products release toxic compounds that pose a risk to the user. In fact, research has found that some toxicants, including carbon monoxide and certain carcinogens, are higher in cigar smoke than cigarette smoke, and of course the toxicants that are found in tobacco smoke in cigars increase the user’s risk of developing diseases such as cancer, heart disease or respiratory disease. As the four Chief Medical Officers of the UK set out in their technical note to noble Lords, any suggestion that cigars are substantially safer than other tobacco products is not accurate.
Given the health harms of all cigars, it is appropriate that they are in scope of the legislation and that the Government retain our current ability, introduced in 2014, to regulate the packaging of all tobacco products. Moreover, exempting product categories is likely to lead to exploitation by the tobacco industry, which will always find a loophole to exploit. For example, following the ban on menthol cigarettes in 2020, tobacco companies began marketing cigarette-like menthol-flavoured cigarillos.
I shall provide some assistance on the points being raised today. As I said, I have heard concerns from noble Lords about future packaging restrictions that could impact specialist tobacconists more significantly than other retailers, and concerns about potential unfairness arising from that. I can say, as I have said before, that it is absolutely not this Government’s intention for any future packaging requirements to put any small businesses, including specialist tobacconists, out of business. Our intent is that any future packaging regulations make the health harms of these products clear while minimising the impact on businesses.
The noble Earl, Lord Lindsay, asked about future regulation on packaging. If that is to be the case, further impact assessments will be prepared in advance, including the economic impact of any proposed regulations. The policy proposals for any packaging requirements will be a matter for consultation, and all businesses—including, I am sure, specialist tobacconists —will want to respond and will be welcome to. I want also to be clear that the Government will consider the impact any policy proposal has on small businesses, including specialist tobacconists, via future published impact assessments, as I just said. It is important, however, despite these points, that the Government retain their current powers to regulate the packaging of all tobacco products, as any carve-out would potentially create loopholes for exploitation, as other noble Lords have expressed concern about.
Amendment 192 from the noble Earl, Lord Lindsay, seeks to maintain the existing exemption to allow individuals to sample cigars and pipe tobacco indoors in an enclosed and ventilated area in a specialist tobacconist shop. The Government are, as noble Lords know, committed to protecting people from the harms of second-hand smoke, which is why we launched a consultation on expanding smoke-free places on 13 February.
On the point the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, made, there are a number of exemptions to the current smoke-free legislation, including an exemption for sampling rooms—not smoking lounges, as the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, referred to—in specialist tobacconists, providing certain criteria are met, as outlined. The Government do not intend to remove this existing exemption for specialist tobacconists. The consultation explicitly states our intention for the exemption to remain.
Finally, Amendments 18 and 19, tabled by the noble Earl, Lord Lindsay, seek to maintain the existing exemption for specialist tobacconists to display tobacco products. There are several exemptions to the current tobacco display legislation, including an exemption for specialist tobacconists. In England, this allows specialist tobacconists to display tobacco products as long as they are not visible from outside the premises. The Government’s intention is not to remove this existing exemption for specialist tobacconists. This will be reflected when we consult on future display regulations later this year.
It is important that the Bill balances the public health aims with any disproportionate impacts on businesses, including specialist tobacconists. However, we will continue to monitor this niche market to ensure that it is not targeting young people or exploiting the existing exemptions. I hope that, on this basis, the noble Earl, Lord Lindsay, will feel able to withdraw his amendment.
The Earl of Lindsay (Con)
My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for the thoughtful answers she has given to the various points my amendments have raised. I am also grateful for the time she allowed for discussions between Committee and Report to understand the issues better; my thanks to her. I am grateful to my noble friends Lord Johnson of Lainston and Lord Kamall for the support they have offered for these amendments.
Before coming back to what the Minister said, I say to the noble Baronesses, Lady Bennett and Lady Northover, that there is quite a lot of confusion over the statistics relating to cigars as a generic category. I remind both of them that my amendments deal solely with handmade cigars, not with cigars as a single generic whole.
As I said, handmade cigars are not inhaled. They are relatively expensive compared with other smoking options. A lot of cigars out there on the market are machine made; some of them are small enough to be cigarillos. The statistics about young people indulging in cigar smoking almost wholly relate to people who are smoking not handmade cigars but other types of cigar.
Baroness Merron
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment, and my amendments to clauses 62, 80, 113, 114, 115, 116, 117, 118, 120, 122, 123 and 124, would ensure that the effect of a person’s action is considered by reference to what it will be, rather than what it currently is (for consistency with the mental element of these offences).
Baroness Merron (Lab)
My Lords, the amendments in this group are government amendments relating to the advertising provisions. They are in large part technical in nature, but they have a clear and important purpose: to stop the advertising and promotion of products that risk addicting a new generation to nicotine. They also ensure that the regime is clear and capable of being enforced fairly and consistently across all settings, whether online or offline.
We know why we are here today. In 2025, more than 1 million children reported having tried vaping. We have seen the brightly coloured and cartoon advertisements that have clearly appealed to young people. The Bill delivers on this Government’s mandate to stop the blatant advertising of vapes to children while continuing to support adult smokers to quit.
Government Amendments 20, 99, 111, 148, 150, 154, 156, 158, 160, 162, 164, 167 and 170 to 172 are minor and technical amendments. They simply update the wording across the clauses that create offences relating to free distribution, advertising, brand sharing and sponsorship. These amendments will ensure that the offence is committed, for example, as soon as an advert is published, which may not have been the case in some circumstances. That means that, for example, if a leaflet with an advert is put through a letterbox, the offence arises when it is delivered, not when the resident eventually reads it.
I have also tabled Amendment 165, which restores specific exceptions that already exist in current law. These make it clear that intermediaries—companies such as TalkTalk or BT—that provide passive internet services such as internet access cannot be liable for advertising offences in certain circumstances. This does not reflect a change in policy. The Bill does not intend to change the circumstance in which passive service providers may be liable. However, to put the matter beyond doubt, these amendments explicitly protect providers of passive services who have no ability to control, publish or remove adverts if they satisfy the circumstances prescribed in the exceptions.
Government Amendments 173 to 174, 179, 180 to 183, and 185 to 187 make it clear that the product placement provisions in Part 6 are not retrospective. They restate the existing law in relation to tobacco, and ensure that the new restrictions apply only going forward and do not affect programmes made before they came into force. This means that broadcasters or on-demand programme service providers will not be required to review or edit existing programmes. Finally, Amendment 184 removes now redundant amendments to video-sharing legislation that was repealed by the Online Safety Act 2023.
I turn to what is perhaps the most substantive amendment in this group—Amendment 166—and Amendments 175 to 178 on the public health defence. In Committee, I explained that the Bill already allows public health authorities to take certain steps to promote vapes as a means to quit smoking. Noble Lords raised important questions about how this applies to pharmacists, pharmacies and GP practices that both support smoking cessation and operate as businesses. I listened carefully to these concerns and, in response, I tabled an amendment creating a specific defence to provide clarity on how this will work in practice. This amendment allows businesses to promote non-branded vapes and nicotine products where it is done in arrangement with the public authority for public health reasons. In practice, this means that public authorities will continue to be able to partner with businesses such as pharmacies to run effective public health campaigns that promote vaping for smoking cessation.
We have also replicated this exception for on-demand programme services to ensure that public health authorities can continue to work with businesses to promote vaping for smoking cessation through these platforms. I hope this provides reassurance to noble Lords that healthcare professionals, including pharmacists and GPs, can continue to display smoking cessation materials. It also ensures that others, such as design agencies commissioned by public authorities, will not be caught inadvertently by the offence provisions when supporting this work.
I know that all these matters were of concern to noble Lords; I am therefore, as I said, glad to put forward amendments to tackle these very real points. I look forward to hearing the views and contributions of noble Lords in this debate, and I hope I can count on their support.
Baroness Northover (LD)
From these Benches, the Minister can count on our support.
Lord Kamall (Con)
My Lords, the hour is late and, given that some of my noble friends have left the Chamber—no doubt to enjoy a very expensive handcrafted cigar—it is left to my noble friend Lord Effingham and me to offer the opposition. If I had any temptation to call a Division, I can see that I am outnumbered.
I thank the Minister for tabling these amendments. I know that many of them are technical, but some are very important. I particularly welcome Amendment 165, which provides sensible protection for internet service providers acting merely as conduits, caching services or passive hosts. They are not really active in this space. They do not initiate, select or modify the content transmitted across their networks, and it would not be fair or practical to render them criminally liable for material of which they have no knowledge and over which they exercise no control.
Similarly, Amendments 166 and 178 ensure that legitimate public health campaigns are not inadvertently caught out by the advertising offences in the Bill. Where a person is acting in accordance with arrangements made by a public authority and for the purpose of promoting or protecting public health, it would be wrong for them to face criminal liability.
Finally, we welcome Amendment 183 because it ensures that the new restrictions do not apply retrospectively to programmes that were already in production before the new rules came into force. I suppose this is all a very long way of saying that we welcome the amendments from the Government.
Baroness Merron (Lab)
I am delighted to receive the support of both Front Benches, either in a few words or in a few more words. This is to fulfil a mandate to stop the blatant advertising of vapes to children, while continuing to support adult smokers to quit. I therefore commend the amendment to the House.
Tuesday 3rd March 2026
(5 months, 1 week ago)
Lords ChamberTobacco and Vapes Act 2026 Read Hansard Text Watch Debate Amendment Paper: HL Bill 89-R-II Second marshalled list for Report - (27 Feb 2026)
This text is a record of ministerial contributions to a debate held as part of the Tobacco and Vapes Act 2026 passage through Parliament.
In 1993, the House of Lords Pepper vs. Hart decision provided that statements made by Government Ministers may be taken as illustrative of legislative intent as to the interpretation of law.
This extract highlights statements made by Government Ministers along with contextual remarks by other members. The full debate can be read here
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
Earl Russell (LD)
My Lords, I will respond to this group of amendments concerning the proposed retail licence scheme for tobacco and nicotine products. We welcome the inclusion of a retail licensing scheme in this Bill. This is a significant and constructive addition to earlier versions. The proposal represents a major step forward in strengthening the regulation of tobacco and nicotine sales in the UK. It brings the sale of tobacco into line with established practice for alcohol. Tobacco, of course, remains the single most harmful product that is still readily available. It is the single biggest cause of preventable illness and early death in the United Kingdom. It therefore follows that the sale of these products should be subject to comparable regulatory oversight. Extending the oversight to vapes and other nicotine products will further assist trading standards in addressing non-compliant, unregistered and under-age sales. This combination of proportionate regulation and clear enforcement powers will help to protect both the public and responsible retailers from unscrupulous and illegal competition.
The principle underpinning this reform is simple: the right to sell products that carry health risks must come with clear responsibilities. We want a system that supports compliance, deters abuse and places public health at its heart. Amendment 21A, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Kamall, and the noble Earl, Lord Howe, would ensure a minimum of a one-year gap between regulations being passed and coming into effect, allowing for a transition period. We entirely understand the wish to allow retailers, local authorities and other enforcement bodies adequate time to prepare for the new framework. Implementation must be orderly and practical. However, setting a fixed one-year time delay in primary legislation risks creating unnecessarily rigid constraints. Some elements of the scheme may be ready to begin earlier, while others might benefit from a longer period. The Government’s approach—to determine the precise timing through secondary legislation, informed by evidence gathered from those affected through consultation and negotiation—will ensure that that transition happens as smoothly and credibly as possible.
Turning to Amendments 23, 30, 43, 45, 114 and 115, I have listened carefully to the points made by the noble Earl, Lord Lindsay, regarding how existing specialist tobacconists should be treated within the new regime, including on transitional protection and possible exemptions. We acknowledge that the Government have already made some considerable steps in these areas, and we fully recognise the intention here: to try to give certainty to small specialist retailers who have operated responsibly and reasonably within the law for many years. However, these amendments would, in effect, enshrine grandfather rights in primary legislation, automatically conferring licences or permanent exemptions from any future limits on the number or distribution of these outlets throughout the United Kingdom and the devolved Administrations. That would effectively pre-empt the consultation process and remove discretion before any evidence has been gathered or assessed in any way.
It is important that all aspects of eligibility, transitional arrangements and the scope of any future caps or location-based controls are properly considered through consultation, considering not only the interests of existing traders but the wider objectives of public health, community protection and fair enforcement. Given that this applies to existing retailers, not new ones, it does seem that these points should be made within the consultation. We hope that the Minister intends to do that and is open and considerate to these small and normally very compliant retailers—a point that has been made several times. We imagine that the retail licensing scheme will differentiate between the different types of retailers; but given that all details have yet to be confirmed, these amendments feel premature to us.
Amendments 24 and 25 relate to national registers and a unified digital portal. Again, to us, it feels like these things will be necessary for any licensing scheme, and we therefore assume that these amendments are not necessary, but it would be helpful if the Minister could confirm that. On Amendments 31 and 44 and alcohol licences, we believe that this is already possible, but it would be useful if the Minister could confirm that.
I would like to pick up on one point that was made in the debate. It would be helpful if the Minister could say a word about how breaches made under one licence would be communicated and passed on to the people who are regulating the other licences, and how she feels these two licensing schemes would interact with each other, specifically where breaches have taken place.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Baroness Merron) (Lab)
My Lords, I am most grateful to noble Lords for their contributions to this debate, as well as the engagement they have been good enough to give their time to before Report.
Let me start with the amendments from the noble Earl, Lord Lindsay. The UK Government, Welsh Government and Northern Ireland Executive are carefully considering the design of the licensing scheme. A recent joint call for evidence asked detailed questions about implementation. This included specifically inviting feedback on whether applications for existing businesses should be treated differently from those for new businesses, and whether factors such as the location and density of retailers should have a role in granting licensing. I know, particularly from the debate today, that the question about existing businesses is a matter of concern to noble Lords.
We are aware that, under reforms to alcohol licensing through the Licensing Act, existing compliant businesses were indeed brought on to the new system, as noble Lords have referred to before, using grandfathering arrangements. I can assure noble Lords that we are considering this carefully alongside the feedback from our call for evidence, and we will invite further feedback when we consult on our proposals. However, the main point I would like to emphasise—a number of noble Lords have asked about this, and rightly so—is that, as I have said before, the Government do not wish to create a scheme which arbitrarily puts law-abiding retailers out of business. That is absolutely not the intent of this policy.
The noble Lord, Lord Johnson, the noble Earl, Lord Russell, and my noble friend Lord Mendelsohn, along with other noble Lords, raised questions about specialist tobacconists, which we have discussed, and rightly so, on a number of occasions. With regard to various regulations that we have spoken about, and on specialist tobacconists broadly, as the noble lord, Lord Johnson, acknowledged, I gave the assurances on day 1 of Report last week, and I hope they have been heard.
We want a scheme that is proportionate and fair, as I believe noble Lords do, particularly to the many existing businesses that operate responsibly—I emphasise that, because they deserve credit—but we also want to deter those who break the law, which was called for by the noble Lord, Lord Strathcarron. Again, feedback on our proposals will help us strike the right balance. While I cannot accept the noble Earl’s amendment, I hope I have provided some reassurance that we are considering the details of this scheme in a way that is sympathetic to his aims.
I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Udny-Lister, for tabling Amendments 24 and 25 and to the noble Lord, Lord Kamall, for tabling Amendment 21A. I am sympathetic to what noble Lords are seeking to achieve with these amendments. We agree with the need to introduce more rigour around who can sell these products and to minimise additional burdens on retailers and local authorities as far as possible. We also share the desire of the noble Lord, Lord Kamall, to ensure that retailers have enough time to prepare for the new licensing scheme. However, I believe these amendments are not needed as they are about how the scheme is implemented effectively. This is something we need to consider properly—the noble Earl, Lord Russell, referred to this—through consultation.
I can confirm to the noble Earl, Lord Howe, as I have before, that we are in regular contact with retail associations on implementation of the Bill, including the design of the future licensing scheme. This work will continue.
I know how strongly the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, feels about the point that he is raising. We have engaged with the UK’s main independent vaping bodies—the UK Vaping Industry Association and the Independent British Vape Trade Association—and that engagement will continue. We will continue to hear their considerations and those of their members, but ultimately our policy decisions on future regulations will be guided, as noble Lords are aware, by evidence to protect and improve public health. I appreciate the view of the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, which is different from the one that I am suggesting, but I hope he can be reassured about our engagement directly with those bodies because we feel that is the right thing to do.
I want again to reference our call for evidence, which asked about what support retailers and local authorities may require. It encouraged feedback on what works for existing licensing schemes. It also asked a specific question about how long is required to implement the scheme. These are all things rightly of concern to noble Lords in this group. The noble Earl, Lord Howe, raised a point about timings, how the timetable will go and including a lead-in time. We are considering these issues carefully and will reflect on the feedback that we have received before consulting on our proposals. The noble Earl, Lord Howe, understandably asked for an update on the feedback in the call for evidence. That is important because the feedback will, as the noble Earl knows, inform our proposals for consultation. I am not able today to provide the update that the noble Earl rightly seeks, not least because we are still considering the returns from the call for evidence, which closed at the end of last year. But I can say that in our view there is no need to introduce legislative requirements, as in these amendments, before consultation has taken place. The noble Earl, Lord Russell, made a point about the amendments being somewhat premature, but I know they have the best of intentions. The Government are fully committed to ensuring that there is fair and reasonable time for businesses to adapt to any new regulatory regime.
Turning to Amendments 31 and 44 from the noble Lord, Lord Udny-Lister, I am again sympathetic to what he is seeking to achieve. Where a business is found to have not complied with tobacco and vape legislation, it makes sense to bring into question whether that business is acting responsibly in relation to other products. However, any action that licensing authorities take against businesses should, as we would all expect, be justifiable and proportionate. A decision to suspend or revoke a business’s licence might have a significant impact on its livelihood and should not be taken lightly. Noble Lords have rightly made that point in this Chamber.
We are talking here about different products; it might not always be the case that non-compliance with one licensing scheme means that a business is non-compliant with another. It is important that licensing authorities take decisions with evidence of the business’s capability to sell specific products in line with the objectives of the respective licensing schemes. However, I agree that breaching a tobacco and vape licence may indeed be a useful signal for licensing authorities to more closely investigate a business’s compliance with their alcohol licence or vice versa; this is something that the noble Earl, Lord Russell, also asked about. Licensing authorities can and should use their judgment and knowledge of a business’s track record to inform the level of scrutiny that they apply. This includes, where there are concerns that a business is not complying with one scheme, carrying out additional checks to ensure compliance with other licences that it may hold and taking appropriate action where needed.
I hope that noble Lords have been reassured not only today but in the engagement that we have had prior to today, and that the noble Earl will feel able to withdraw the amendment.
Baroness Merron
Member’s explanatory statement
This removes combined authorities etc from the list of local authorities that can be licensing authorities (since where a county or district council is a licensing authority its functions can be given to a combined authority under other legislation).
Baroness Merron (Lab)
My Lords, the amendments in this group were tabled in my name for Committee but were not moved at the time. Government Amendments 67, 69 and 74 are also needed as part of these changes. However, as these amendments are also required for changes that the Government are introducing to the use of proceeds from fixed penalty notices, they will be debated as part of the next group.
At the moment, the Bill places responsibility on trading standards to enforce the future licensing scheme. However, the licensing authority for the scheme will be set out in regulations. The licensing authority may sit in a different tier of local government from trading standards and therefore, as the Bill is currently drafted, would not be able to enforce the scheme. Feedback from stakeholders has suggested that enforcement of the licensing scheme would be stronger and more seamless if those responsible for administering the scheme could also enforce it. These amendments will therefore ensure that whoever is designated as the licensing authority for the scheme will have the powers to do so. In any scenario, trading standards officers will still be able to enforce the scheme alongside the licensing authority. These amendments will help the licensing scheme achieve its aims of supporting legitimate businesses while tackling those who disregard the law, and, in doing so, will support public health.
I turn to government Amendments 144 and 145. Amendment 145 was tabled in my name in Committee but was not moved. It has now been necessary to also table Amendment 144, which is connected. These amendments seek to resolve an issue which has arisen during the passage of the Bill. The Product Regulation and Metrology Act 2025 repeals certain enforcement procedures and provisions in the Consumer Protection Act 1987. As currently drafted, Clause 103 empowers the Secretary of State to make regulations which rely on these provisions. Therefore, without amendment, there is a risk that we may not be able to confer the necessary powers on enforcement authorities.
Amendment 145 allows for the provision of equivalent powers to fully enforce regulations made under Part 5 without referring to the Consumer Protection Act. In doing so, it ensures that regulations made under Part 5 are fully enforceable. Amendment 144 allows for flexibility in the penalties that can be imposed by regulations under Part 5. This flexibility will enable regulations creating new offences to replace certain offences from the Consumer Protection Act and to provide for the lesser penalties associated with them. The amendment retains the maximum term of imprisonment that the Bill currently provides for as a safeguard.
Government Amendment 49 corrects a minor drafting error in the Bill; it does not reflect a change in policy. Finally, government Amendments 208 to 215 are consequential, as a result of changes made by the Legislation (Procedure, Publication and Repeals) (Wales) Act 2025. I hope that noble Lords will support these amendments.
Earl Russell (LD)
My Lords, I will respond to this group of minor and technical government amendments, which relate primarily to enforcement and regulation-making powers. I thank the Minister for her clear explanation of these technical and complex but necessary clarifications within the Bill. Briefly, our Benches appreciate the explanation given but we fully support what the Government are doing in these amendments and have no particular concerns with them. In the interest of time, I will avoid going into the detail, but we have no objection to any of these amendments.
Baroness Merron (Lab)
I will also be brief. I am grateful for the support of the noble Earl, Lord Russell. As I stated in my opening speech, these amendments serve to strengthen the overall enforcement of the Bill, as well as the processes for future regulation—something that I know is of concern to both Front Benches, as well as all noble Lords. For this reason, I beg to move the amendment.
Baroness Merron
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment and my other amendments to clause 18 and Schedule 2 allow a licensing authority that is a district council but not a local weights and measures authority to impose financial penalties for breach of licensing conditions.
Baroness Merron
“(2) In this Schedule “relevant district council” has the meaning given by section 18(6).” Member’s explanatory statement
See the explanatory statement for my amendment to clause 18, page 10, line 29.
Baroness Merron
Member’s explanatory statement
This makes a change to ensure drafting consistency.
Baroness Merron
Member’s explanatory statement
My amendments to this clause, clauses 33 and 35 to 39, 44 and 47 and my new clauses inserted after clause 39 collectively ensure that the licensing provisions may be enforced in England concurrently by local weights and measures authorities and by district councils that are licensing authorities.
Baroness Merron
Member’s explanatory statement
See the explanatory statement for my amendment to clause 32, page 17, line 27.
Baroness Merron
Member’s explanatory statement
See the explanatory statement for my amendment to clause 32, page 17, line 27.
Baroness Merron
Member’s explanatory statement
See the explanatory statement for my amendment to clause 32, page 17, line 27.
Baroness Merron
Member’s explanatory statement
See the explanatory statement for my amendment to clause 32, page 17, line 27.
Baroness Merron
Member’s explanatory statement
See the explanatory statement for my amendment to clause 32, page 17, line 27.
Baroness Merron
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment, together with my amendment to clause 38, page 20, line 25, requires fixed penalties imposed in respect of licensing offences in England to be used as set out in clause 38(3) rather than being paid into the Consolidated Fund. The provision for Wales is moved to a new clause after clause 39.
Baroness Merron (Lab)
My Lords, in an earlier group I spoke about the importance of fixed penalty notices in the Bill, as they provide trading standards officers with an additional enforcement tool to bring retailers into compliance without taking up court resource. I have carefully considered the points raised by noble Lords in Committee about the proceeds of fixed penalty notices issued for licensing offences, including those made by the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley.
I am therefore pleased to have tabled these government amendments because they will allow local authorities in England and Wales to retain all the proceeds from the £2,500 licensing fixed penalty notices for enforcement purposes, rather than having to return proceeds to the Consolidated Fund. That will enable local authorities to reinvest proceeds into strengthening the enforcement of tobacco and vape legislation—something that noble Lords have asked for.
In addition, we are investing up to £10 million of new funding in trading standards annually until 2028-29 to tackle the illicit and underage sale of tobacco and vapes, and to help to enforce the law. This funding is being used to boost the trading standards workforce by hiring 120 apprentices across England, and we will continue to provide funding to support the apprentices over the next three years as they complete their training.
Trading standards plays an essential role in ensuring compliance with tobacco and vape legislation. The enforcement provisions in the Bill, further strengthened by this amendment, will give them the tools they need to carry out that role. Proper enforcement of the law will protect the public from potential health harms and help to realise public health outcomes from policies in the Bill and other tobacco and vape legislation. For these reasons, I hope that noble Lords will feel able to support the government amendments in this group. I beg to move.
Baroness Walmsley (LD)
My Lords, I will speak to Amendments 66 and 68 in my name. These provide that the money collected by trading standards in small fines imposed by fixed penalty notices for offences other than those related to the licensing regulations should go towards smoking cessation services provided by the relevant local authority. The Liberal Democrats have been calling for this since the Bill was first introduced to Parliament.
Lord Kamall (Con)
My Lords, I was very happy to give way to my noble friend to allow him to heap more praise on to the Minister. Sometimes Government Ministers cannot always be assured of receiving praise from other Benches.
My noble friend Lord Howe and I welcome these government amendments and are grateful to the Minister and Department of Health and Social Care officials for reflecting constructively on our debate in Committee on fixed penalties.
On Amendments 66 and 68 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, while I do not disagree with the sentiment, which is admirable—since in theory hypothecation of taxes, public fines and penalties would lead to more transparency on how taxpayers’ money is spent—there is also a strong argument in favour of more fiscal devolution to local authorities, and whether we should use legislation to tell local authorities what they should be doing with the funds they are responsible for. Nevertheless, I would be interested to hear the Minister’s reaction to those amendments, and I thank her and the Government once again for their amendments.
Baroness Merron (Lab)
My Lords, I am most grateful for the contributions to this debate. I can assure the noble Lord, Lord Kamall, that there are no limits to the amount of praise that can be received by Ministers on this Front Bench, and noble Lords should feel free, at any time, to heap praise. We will always be grateful.
I am grateful for the welcome from the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley—we are very pleased to see her back in her place in good health—and the noble Lord, Lord Kamall. On the noble Baroness’s Amendments 66 and 68, I have heard the call for, as she described, a broad approach. We recognise the importance of local smoking cessation services, which is the very reason we are investing an additional £260 million pounds over the next three years within the public health grant. This will mean that at least £150 million is ring-fenced for stop smoking services every year. The funding is protected, as the noble Baroness seeks, and cannot be used for other public health initiatives. It provides assurance and stability for these essential services.
In addition, we have extended the national smoke-free pregnancy incentive scheme for a further three years from 2026-27 to 2028-29, with funding worth up to £15 million—£5 million per annum. We are also committed to integrating opt-out smoking cessation services into routine care within all hospitals, as set out in the 10-year health plan.
I hope that this reassures the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, about how committed we are to providing support for smokers to quit without the need to fund services using proceeds from fixed penalty notices. Instead, as your Lordships’ House has heard, we believe that proceeds can be better used by local authorities on the enforcement of the Bill and other tobacco and vape legislation. It is important that local authorities are able to retain the proceeds to cover their costs in issuing fixed penalty notices and reinvest any remaining funds in enforcement. Strong enforcement of the measures in the Bill and other tobacco and vape legislation will help ensure that we deliver our ambition to achieve a smoke-free UK and to protect future generations from the risk of nicotine addiction. In other words, on the very important points that the noble Baroness is pursuing through her amendments, that ultimately is the best way of reducing smoking.
Government amendments 64, 65, 67, 69 and 74 will support this by allowing local authorities to retain all the proceeds from the £2,500 licensing offence fixed penalty notices as well as the £200 fixed penalty notices in the Bill, which goes further than noble Lords were originally requesting. With that, I hope that noble Lords will support these important amendments.
Baroness Merron
Member’s explanatory statement
See the explanatory statement for my amendment to clause 38, page 20, line 17.
Baroness Merron
Member’s explanatory statement
See the explanatory statement for my amendment to clause 32, page 17, line 27.
Baroness Merron
Member’s explanatory statement
See the explanatory statement for my amendment to clause 32, page 17, line 27.
Baroness Merron
Member’s explanatory statement
See the explanatory statement for my amendment to clause 32, page 17, line 27.
Baroness Merron
“Fixed penalty notices: Wales(1) A local weights and measures authority in Wales that has reason to believe that a person has committed an offence under, or under regulations made under, any of the following may give the person a fixed penalty notice in respect of the offence—section 1 (sale of tobacco etc to people born on or after 1 January 2009);section 2 (purchase of tobacco etc on behalf of others);section 6 (age of sale notice at point of sale: Wales);section 10 (sale of vaping or nicotine products to under 18s);section 11 (purchase of vaping or nicotine products on behalf of under 18s);section 14 (displays of products or prices in Wales);section 15 (free distribution and discount of products);section 20 (offences in connection with retail licences: Wales).(2) A fixed penalty notice is a notice offering a person the opportunity to discharge any liability to conviction for the offence to which the notice relates by payment of an amount specified in the notice within the relevant period. (3) The amount specified in a fixed penalty notice in respect of an offence under section 20 must be an amount equal to level 4 on the standard scale of fines for summary offences.(4) The amount specified in a fixed penalty notice in respect of any other offence must be £200.(5) For the purposes of this section “the relevant period” is the period of 28 days beginning with the day on which the fixed penalty notice is given.(6) A fixed penalty notice must explain—(a) that the local weights and measures authority has reason to believe that the person has committed the offence, and why,(b) the effect of subsection (7), and(c) when and how payment may be made.(7) Where a fixed penalty notice has been given to a person (and has not been withdrawn)—(a) no proceedings may be instituted for the offence before the end of the relevant period, and(b) the person may not be convicted of the offence if the person pays—(i) the full amount of the fixed penalty in the notice before the end of the relevant period, or(ii) 50% of that amount before the end of the period of 14 days beginning with the day on which the relevant period starts.(8) Where proceedings are instituted for the offence after the end of the relevant period, that period is to be disregarded for the purposes of calculating the period mentioned in section 127(1) of the Magistrates’ Court Act 1980.(9) A fixed penalty notice given under this section may be withdrawn by the local weights and measures authority that gave it at any time before a payment is made in pursuance of the notice.”Member’s explanatory statement
See the explanatory statement for my amendment to clause 32, page 17, line 27.
Baroness Merron
Member’s explanatory statement
See the explanatory statement for my amendment to clause 32, page 17, line 27.
Baroness Merron
(a) a filter that does not form part of a tobacco product or herbal smoking product;Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment allows the Secretary of State to make regulations applying to filters any provision of Part 1 that applies to tobacco products.
Baroness Merron
““filter” means a filter that is intended to be used when smoking a tobacco product or herbal smoking product (including a filter that forms part of, or that is intended to be inserted into, an item such as a cigarette holder or pipe);” Member’s explanatory statement
This defines “filter” for the purposes of my amendments to clause 45.
Baroness Merron
““relevant enforcement authority in England” has the meaning given by section 32(1A);”Member’s explanatory statement
See the explanatory statement for my amendment to clause 32, page 17, line 27.
Baroness Merron (Lab)
My Lords, I am most grateful to noble Lords for their contributions to this debate, which have covered a number of important areas. I will start with Amendment 202, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Young of Cookham, and Amendment 206, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Lansley—it was also spoken to by a number of other noble Lords, including the noble Lord, Lord Rennard. As noble Lords are aware, there is already a duty on government to review most secondary legislation and to conduct post-legislative scrutiny of primary legislation, and we take these obligations very seriously. For Amendment 202 specifically, the point must be reiterated that this Government are committed to achieving a smoke-free UK, and we recognise that this work will absolutely not be over when this Bill receives Royal Assent.
However, I have listened carefully to the concerns raised by noble Lords, and it is for that reason that I have tabled Amendment 205, which introduces a requirement for the Secretary of State to review the operation of the Act within four to seven years of Royal Assent and to lay a report before Parliament concluding the findings of that review. I can assure the noble Lords, Lord Rennard and Lord Young, that this includes looking at the impact on communities where smoking rates are currently the highest. I hope that this is a clear demonstration of the Government’s commitment to monitoring progress against our smoke-free ambition.
The noble Lord, Lord Young, and others have said that this Bill is not about assisting people to quit. In the last group, noble Lords will recall, I addressed our determination, and laid out the resource that we have committed, to help people to quit smoking now, and that absolutely is a key aspect.
Amendment 205, which I tabled, will ensure that this Government and—I emphasise this—any future Administrations are held to account for conducting an evidence-based review of the Act. Our intent is to make the report within five years, in line with our existing obligations. However, the amendment is set out as it is—it provides the necessary flexibility on timing—because we want to ensure that evidence is in place before conclusions are drawn. We do not want this to be a tick-box exercise.
I can confirm to the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, and the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, that independent evidence will indeed be central. Most notably, it will include the living evidence map commissioned by the National Institute for Health and Care Research, which will collate UK-based and international evidence on vapes and nicotine products for the next five years. This will include things such as any published research evaluating the impact of the Bill, and regular summaries will be publicly available to outline emerging trends and evidence gaps. I am pleased to say that this tool was published on 18 February.
As the Bill’s impact assessment outlines, we would not, in all honesty—I know noble Lords understand this—expect to see the full, transformative impact of the Act for some time. It is for that reason that the impact assessment used a 30-year appraisal period for the smoke-free generation policy. Our modelling found that the Bill will save tens of thousands of lives over the next 50 years. None the less, we expect that this review will capture any early indicators and operational progress.
I say to the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, that there is no limit on consultation just to the devolved Governments because, as I set out on previous groups, we are keen and committed and have already set out how we will consult many. We will continue to commission a substantial package of high-quality independent research on what is world-leading legislation.
On Amendment 207 by the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, I appreciate her intention to ensure that the impact of the Act receives appropriate parliamentary scrutiny, as I hope she has heard me say throughout every stage of the Bill. As she is aware, the Government already published a thorough impact assessment of the measures in the Bill on its introduction. Where possible, this has covered estimated impacts on businesses across the tobacco and vapes supply chain, including impacts for manufacturers, importers, wholesalers, distributors and retailers.
For measures delivered through secondary legislation, in particular product standards, flavours and packaging, further detailed impact assessments will be undertaken. I have also spoken about government Amendment 205, which will include consideration of economic impacts where evidence allows. I must also emphasise that we will not prioritise the profits of businesses over protecting children from the risks of tobacco products, vaping and nicotine.
I say to the noble Lord, Lord Mawson, that there is no evidence to suggest that changing the age of sale of tobacco would have any relation to drug use. Indeed, we can look at our experience that, when the age of sale went from 16 to 18, drug use decreased.
I turn to Amendments 91, 120, 201 and 216, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Hoey, and supported by the noble Lord, Lord Dodds. I hope that these comments, in particular my opening remarks, will be helpful to the noble Earl, Lord Howe, because I will start with an update to your Lordships’ House on the notification of the Bill under the EU’s Technical Regulation Information System, known as TRIS. The UK Government have notified certain provisions in the Bill related to Northern Ireland on TRIS. This is an absolutely standard process; it is not an approval process. The Commission and member states may indeed comment, but they do not play a role in approving the UK’s legislation in respect of Northern Ireland.
It is the case, as noble Lords have said, that certain EU member states issued opinions setting out their concerns about the compatibility of the smoke-free generation policy with EU law. It is not unusual for member states to submit opinions on TRIS notifications. To give just one example, several member states also wrote to France recently when it proposed a ban on nicotine pouches, despite several other member states already having introduced such a ban.
The Government have provided a comprehensive response on the opinions they have received. The response sets out the strong public health justification for the policy and explains why the smoke free generation complies with EU law as it applies under the Windsor Framework. The Commission has also now responded, noting our response, and this concludes the TRIS process.
On the points raised by noble Lords including the noble Baroness, Lady Hoey, the noble Lord, Lord Dodds, and, in a different way, the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, about legal opinions, your Lordships are probably far more aware of this, but it is worth restating: legal opinions, to state what is obvious, can and do differ. I emphasise that it is not unusual for the tobacco industry to argue that government measures are incompatible with the law. My noble friend Lord Forbes spoke to this very point. Experience tells us that this has happened many times: to give but two examples, on the introduction of standardised packaging in 2016 and on the regulations made under the Tobacco Advertising and Promotion Act 2002.
Amendments 91, 120 and 216 are not required: the Government have already published their response to the Commission, setting out why measures drafted in the Bill which apply to Northern Ireland are compatible with obligations under the Windsor Framework and EU law. I referred earlier to the Government’s published response on TRIS, following detailed opinions from EU member states. I strongly urge all interested Peers to read this if they have not had the chance to do so already, because it sets out in detail why the Government believe that the smoke-free generation policy and other measures in the Bill are compatible with EU law. It covers the Bill’s compatibility with Articles 34 and 36 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union and the EU tobacco products directive, and the public health justification for measures in the Bill.
Finally, I note that we cannot accept Amendment 201 as it could put us in breach of international law by undermining compliance with our obligations under the Windsor Framework. To this point, I am grateful to my noble friend Lady Ritchie for her observations. With that, I therefore ask the noble Baroness, Lady Hoey, to withdraw her amendment.
Baroness Hoey (Non-Afl)
My Lords, I thank the Minister. We had this discussion a few times in Committee. I tabled these amendments to make sure that all noble Lords are fully aware that no matter how much time we spend on the Bill, and whatever happens, it could end up in the EU ruling that it cannot apply to Northern Ireland. That is just a fact. There may be different legal opinions; I certainly have not relied on just the legal opinions of the tobacco industry. I am just disappointed as, once again, the noble and learned Lord the Attorney-General seems to be very quiet on this and does not want to engage or produce anything that shows us the legal opinion.
However, as has been said many times before, there is obviously agreement between the two Front Benches. Although I welcome the very sensible probing of this by the noble Earl, Lord Howe, there is clearly a consensus that the Bill is going to go through whatever because other Bills are probably more important. I therefore just warn noble Lords that we have been right before when we warned about legal opinion and what was happening in the Windsor Framework, and I think we will be right again. Having said that, I will withdraw my amendment.
Baroness Merron
Member’s explanatory statement
See the explanatory statement for my amendment to clause 15.
Baroness Merron
“Alignment of definition of “filter” etc(1) Section 35 of the Tobacco and Primary Medical Services (Scotland) Act 2010 (asp 3) (interpretation of Part 1) is amended as follows.(2) In subsection (1), at the appropriate place insert—““filter” means a filter that is intended to be used when smoking a tobacco product or herbal smoking product (including a filter that forms part of, or that is intended to be inserted into, an item such as a cigarette holder or pipe);”.(3) In subsection (2), for “cigarette filters” substitute “filters that do not form part of a tobacco product or herbal smoking product”.(4) In subsection (3), after “order” insert “amend this section so as to”.”Member’s explanatory statement
This adds a definition of “filter” to section 35(1) of the 2010 Act, amends the definition of “smoking related product” so as to attract that new definition and adjusts the power to modify the latter definition to allow amendments that are not confined to the text of section 35(2).
Baroness Merron
“(b) if not falling within paragraph (a), a filter that does not form part of a tobacco product or herbal smoking product.(4) The Scottish Ministers may by regulations amend this Part for the purpose of extending to filters any provision made by sections 9A to 9C in relation to a relevant oral tobacco product.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment allows Part 1 of the 2010 Act to be amended so as to extend to filters provisions relating to tobacco products. It also allows the Scottish Ministers to ban the manufacture, sale or possession with intent to supply of filters.
Baroness Merron
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment provides for regulations about age verification to be subject to approval by a resolution of the Northern Ireland Assembly.
Baroness Merron
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment provides for regulations about age verification to be subject to approval by a resolution of the Northern Ireland Assembly.
Baroness Merron
Member’s explanatory statement
See the explanatory statement for my amendment to clause 15.
Baroness Merron
““filter” means a filter that is intended to be used when smoking a tobacco product or herbal smoking product (including a filter that forms part of, or that is intended to be inserted into, an item such as a cigarette holder or pipe);”Member’s explanatory statement
This defines “filter” for the purposes of my amendments to clause 85(1).
Baroness Merron
(a) a filter that does not form part of a tobacco product or herbal smoking product;Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment allows the Department to make regulations applying to filters any provision of Part 2 of the Health and Personal Social Services (Northern Ireland) Order 1978 that applies to tobacco products.
Baroness Merron
““filter” means a filter that is intended to be used when smoking a tobacco product or herbal smoking product (including a filter that forms part of, or that is intended to be inserted into, an item such as a cigarette holder or pipe);”Member’s explanatory statement
This defines “filter” for the purposes of my amendments to clause 85(2).
Baroness Merron
“Extension of section 88 to filters(1) The Secretary of State may by regulations amend section 88 for the purpose of extending it to a relevant offence that involves possession of a filter with intent to supply it to another in the course of business.(2) In subsection (1)—“filter” means a filter that is intended to be used when smoking a tobacco product or herbal smoking product (including a filter that forms part of, or that is intended to be inserted into, an item such as a cigarette holder or pipe);“herbal smoking product” means a product consisting wholly or partly of vegetable matter and intended to be smoked but not containing tobacco;“relevant offence” means an offence created by virtue of regulations under—(a) section 45(1A),(b) section 34A(3A) of the Tobacco and Primary Medical Services Act 2010 (asp 3), or(c) Article 6B(1A) of the Health and Personal Social Services (Northern Ireland) Order 1978 (S.I. 1978/1907 (N.I. 26));“tobacco product” means a product consisting wholly or partly of tobacco and intended to be smoked, sniffed, sucked, chewed or consumed in any other way.(3) Regulations under this section are subject to the affirmative resolution procedure.”Member’s explanatory statement
This clause confers power to extend clause 88 to filters.
Baroness Merron
“(da) filters;” Member’s explanatory statement
This extends the power under the clause to filters.
Earl Howe (Con)
My Lords, I am sorry to disappoint the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, but, unless it is designed as a probing amendment, I fear I am not drawn to Amendment 123. In essence, it would tie the Government’s hands on the rules around the packaging and display of vapes. If the amendment were accepted, it would make any prior consultation and legal advice completely pointless. Measures of this depth and scope, mandating plain packaging for all vaping products and prohibiting point-of-sale display in all circumstances, would represent a major intervention in what is currently, and will certainly remain, a lawful market, and not only a lawful market but one that serves a significant therapeutic purpose in a public health context. The extent to which the powers in the Bill relating to the packaging and display of vapes need to be exercised must surely depend on decisions by Ministers following full and proper consultation with the businesses, manufacturers and retailers that would be directly affected.
Some regulation in these areas is almost certainly going to be necessary, particularly if we are to protect young people. However, regulation must be proportionate and evidence based. Vapes are not the same as tobacco, as the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, pointed out. For example, there needs to be scope for product differentiation by consumers. If consumers are denied choice, that will kill off any incentive on the part of manufacturers to pursue beneficial innovation. That consideration is important if we believe that vapes are likely to occupy an important place as a smoking cessation tool for adult smokers over the medium to long term.
On Amendments 125 and 134 from my noble friend Lord Moylan, notwithstanding the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Darzi, I hope to hear the Minister make some positive comments. As my noble friend has argued, both today and in Committee, it is not just the flavour of a vape that gives it an appeal but the flavour that it purports to have, and we know that the flavour descriptor can affect the purchasing decisions of those inclined to use vapes as a recreational toy.
In relation to Amendment 136A, there are clearly a number of considerations that must be weighed carefully. On the one hand, higher-capacity devices may be important for some adult users who rely on vaping as a smoking cessation tool. For those individuals, practicality and product functionality can make a real difference in supporting a transition away from combustible tobacco. On the other hand, there remains a legitimate concern, which my noble friend rightly voiced, about whether larger-capacity devices could increase appeal to younger people or facilitate greater nicotine consumption, with implications for addiction.
I suggest that those are finely balanced issues. I look forward to hearing the Minister’s response on the evidence base underpinning the proposal and how the Government intend to strike the right balance.
Baroness Merron (Lab)
My Lords, I am grateful for the contributions in this debate. Amendment 123 was tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, and spoken to by the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley. Clause 89, which I will refer to later as well, already gives the Secretary of State powers to regulate packaging, while Clause 13 already provides powers on display that can set requirements as to where products can be sold.
The noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, asked about evidence. There is evidence that removing branding and standardising packaging reduces a product’s appeal to young people, as the noble Baroness alluded to, while having little impact on adults. However, I can say that we will consult on proposals before making regulations. The noble Earl, Lord Howe, has referred to this issue a number of times and I agree, because we are conscious of the need to ensure a balance between dissuading young people from taking this up while not dissuading adult smokers from quitting.
On the point about research, through the National Institute for Health and Care Research, we continue to fund high-quality research, including research on the packaging of vapes and nicotine products, and I am glad to say that that is due to conclude later this year. While I understand the intention of the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, to reduce the appeal and visibility of these products, and I acknowledge her concerns, her amendment does seek to set the requirements in the Bill. As the noble Earl, Lord Howe, referred to, we have a statutory duty and we would be wise to consult on these issues, because we need to ensure, as the noble Earl said, that any restrictions are proportionate and evidence based. However, I reassure the noble Baroness that these are areas on which we will be acting.
On Amendment 136A, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Udny-Lister, under the Tobacco and Related Products Regulations 2016, vaping products, as has been referred to in this debate, are already limited to 2 millilitres for tanks and 10 millilitres for refill containers. Over recent years, some manufacturers have developed devices where multiple refill containers can be attached to a single device as a means to circumvent the legislative requirements and restrictions.
I want to assure the noble Lord that Clause 90 provides the powers to amend or place additional requirements and limits on vape tank sizes and the size of refill containers. It is vital that we undertake the necessary consultation, because we wish to make sure that our regulations are based on the best possible evidence related to tank capacity limits and that we do not have unintended consequences for adult smokers who use vapes as a quit aid, something I know is of concern, and rightly so, to noble Lords. It is therefore more appropriate for such detailed technical measures to be introduced through secondary legislation. Our recent call for evidence sought views specifically on tank sizes to better understand current market practices and we are, as I mentioned in an earlier group, currently analysing responses and will consider our proposals for consultation post Royal Assent.
Finally, I turn to Amendments 125 and 134, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Moylan. I begin by assuring noble Lords—and the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, suggested I would do this—that Clauses 89 and 90 already provide powers for the Government to regulate information on vape devices and packaging, including flavour descriptors. I draw the attention of noble Lords particularly to Clause 89(3), which is a non-exhaustive list of the kind of provision that regulations could make, including in paragraph (b),
“the information provided on packaging or otherwise supplied with a product”.
I have listened carefully to the concerns expressed by noble Lords about potential unintended consequences of implementing flavour restrictions too rapidly or stringently, and I understand the points that noble Lords have made about the role that flavoured vapes can play in helping adult smokers quit, something the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, mentioned. Certainly, the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, did a very fine job of inviting us into the world that he has experienced in this regard. In that spirit, I can confirm the Government’s commitment to consult on regulating flavour descriptors as a first step before considering broader restrictions on flavoured ingredients. This commitment reflects our intention to adopt a proportionate approach, again as the noble Earl, Lord Howe, asked me to do, supporting adult smokers in their efforts to quit while also working to reduce the appeal of vaping products to children.
However, and on the points raised by the noble Lord, Lord Darzi, I have to be clear that it is essential that we retain the ability to go further in line with the evidence, which the noble Baroness referred to. Flavourings are added to vaping products and that can increase their appeal. Hundreds of flavoured ingredients are used in vapes and, although some are considered safe when ingested, we do not, as the noble Lord, Lord Darzi, said, know the long-term health effects when they are inhaled, particularly in respect of children. Some initial data drawn from the limited research available is concerning and indicates that certain chemicals may be harmful if inhaled. For this important reason, we must have the flexibility to restrict flavoured ingredients in the future to protect public health. We have sought further data on flavours as part of the call for evidence conducted at the end of last year and we are reviewing those responses. In addition, we are exploring commissioning further research on the health impacts of vape ingredients when inhaled.
I hope that all this reassures noble Lords that the powers in the Bill already provide a comprehensive framework to act on these issues and that our approach will remain balanced and evidence-based to strike a necessary balance between reducing youth appeal and ensuring that adult smokers continue to have access to products that may help them quit. I hope the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, will feel able to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Kamall (Con)
My Lords, before I respond to the specific amendments, I will touch on two things that the noble Earl, Lord Russell, said. First, I was previously in the European Parliament and worked on a number of technology regulations, and we can never be absolutely certain that we have legislated for the future or completely future-proofed anything. The only way to do that is to ban everything, frankly. We therefore often find regulation having to keep up with technology when it is far behind it, but we can put certain provisions in place. We can predict certain things but we cannot predict all innovation completely. Secondly, I hope the noble Earl will not mind me gently reminding him that not all vape companies are connected to big tobacco. A number of vape companies have nothing to do with big tobacco, and it is important that we understand that distinction.
My noble friend Lord Howe and I welcome the amendments from my noble friend Lord Lansley. Before the Minister speaks to them, we also very much welcome the two government amendments in this group, which we think respond very helpfully to the issues raised in Committee by my noble friend Lord Lansley. We believe that adding these provisions is a good way of future-proofing the Bill, as much as any Bill can be future-proofed, without necessarily compromising any decisions that Ministers may wish to make in the short term—but also without committing the Government or a future Government to any specific technology solution or to one company’s specific solution. With that in mind, I look forward to what the Minister has to say.
Baroness Merron (Lab)
My Lords, government Amendments 130 and 132 provide a power that would allow the Government to regulate the technological features of vaping products and tobacco-related devices, and the software associated with those features, to address emerging risks and to protect children. While the Bill already provides powers to regulate various device features, such as colour, size and shape, I listened carefully to the points raised in Committee about vape technology and the need to future-proof the Bill in order to respond quickly to new risks. I appreciate the support of both Front Benches on this point, particularly the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Kamall, about how far one can ever go when future-proofing. I can assure him that we are not planning to ban everything, but I thank him for the interesting suggestion.
The noble Earl, Lord Russell, spoke to concerning examples of the emergence of technology being used to make vapes more enticing to young people. As he said, some can now come with gaming functionality and others can be linked to what are called puff leaderboards and reward systems, so the more you inhale, the more credits you build up. Emerging evidence suggests—and it is worrying—that these interactive and gamified vaping features may heighten their appeal to children. This raises serious public health concerns around their potential to escalate dependence on nicotine. Our amendments therefore ensure that such emergent technology features can be appropriately regulated to reduce the appeal to children.
I turn to Amendments 124 and 131 tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Lansley. Let me first reassure him, as well as the noble Earl, Lord Russell, with regard to Amendment 124, that the powers in the Bill already enable us to regulate markings, which could include digital markings such as QR codes, to be used as part of a system to authenticate products. On Amendment 131, with reference to the device itself, I am very grateful for the noble Lord’s suggestions and his contributions on how best to future-proof the Bill, including on age-verification technology.
While it is not the Government’s policy to verify age at the point of use, and we have no intention to do so at this time, we recognise that need, as I have said, to be able to regulate technology to protect public health and respond to evidence, as the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, acknowledged. It is for this reason that we are introducing the new regulation-making power on technology to which I have just spoken. I therefore ask the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Lansley (Con)
The Minister referred to QR codes on packaging, which are obviously covered by the terminology of the Bill as it stands. But the example I used was smart tags, which effectively incorporate an electronic feature into the packaging of a product for monitoring. I would like to be assured that smart tags, too, are covered by the existing powers in the Bill.
Baroness Merron (Lab)
I would be happy to write to confirm that point, but we feel that the Bill covers what we need to cover now. Our amendments talk about future-proofing, which is the key thing, but I would be pleased to write further.
Lord Lansley (Con)
I am most grateful to the Minister and for the support from the noble Earl, Lord Russell, and my noble friend Lord Kamall. With those assurances, I beg leave to withdraw Amendment 124.
Baroness Merron
“(iva) filters;”Member’s explanatory statement
This extends the power under the clause to filters.
Baroness Merron
“(g) any technological features of a tobacco related device or vaping product.” Member’s explanatory statement
This allows regulations under clause 90 to make provision about the technological features of a tobacco related device (such as a heated tobacco device) or a vaping product.
Baroness Merron
“(2A) Regulations under subsection (1)(g) may include provision about software for use in connection with technological features to which the regulations relate.”Member’s explanatory statement
This allows regulations under new subsection (1)(g) about the technological features of a tobacco related device or vaping product to include provision about related software.
Baroness Merron
“(da) filters,”Member’s explanatory statement
This extends the power under the clause to filters.
Baroness Merron
“(da) filters;”Member’s explanatory statement
This extends the power under the clause to filters.
Baroness Merron
“(da) filters,” Member’s explanatory statement
This extends the power under the clause to filters.
Baroness Merron
“(da) filters;”Member’s explanatory statement
This extends the power under the clause to filters.
Baroness Merron
“(iva) filters;”Member’s explanatory statement
This extends the power under the clause to filters.
Baroness Merron
“(da) filters;”Member’s explanatory statement
This extends the power under the clause to filters.
Baroness Merron
“(da) filters;”Member’s explanatory statement
This extends the power under the clause to filters.
Baroness Merron
“(da) filters,”Member’s explanatory statement
This extends the power under the clause to filters.
Baroness Merron
“(iva) filters,” Member’s explanatory statement
This extends the power under the clause to filters.
Baroness Merron
“(5) Regulations under this Part creating an offence—(a) may provide for it to be punishable with a term of imprisonment or a fine (or both);(b) may not provide for the maximum term of imprisonment to exceed 2 years.”Member’s explanatory statement
Clause 102 currently requires offences created by regulations under Part 5 to be either way offences with a maximum penalty of 2 years imprisonment. The amendment allows more flexibility so that summary only offences with lesser maximum penalties can be created.
Baroness Merron
“Enforcement(1) Regulations under this Part may include provision about enforcement.(2) The provision that may be made about enforcement includes—(a) provision conferring functions on the relevant enforcement authorities;(b) provision for the appropriate national authority to—(i) direct, in relation to cases of a particular description or a particular case, that any function conferred on a relevant enforcement authority by virtue of the regulations is to be carried out by the appropriate national authority and not by the relevant enforcement authority;(ii) take over the conduct of any proceedings from a relevant enforcement authority in respect of an offence under this Part.(3) The provision that may be made about enforcement includes—(a) provision conferring on a relevant enforcement authority the power to prohibit a person, for a period of up to 6 months, from supplying a product, if the authority has reasonable grounds to suspect that there has been a breach of regulations under this Part in relation to that product;(b) provision for the forfeiture of products—(i) in England and Wales or Northern Ireland, by court order;(ii) in Scotland, by order of a sheriff;(c) provision similar or corresponding to section 88 (HMRC seizure powers). (4) Provision made by virtue of subsection (3)(a) may include—(a) provision for compensation to be payable by a relevant enforcement authority in specified circumstances;(b) provision about the resolution of disputes about compensation.(5) Regulations under this section may include provision conferring jurisdiction on a court or tribunal, including—(a) provision conferring jurisdiction to order a person to reimburse a relevant enforcement authority’s expenditure in specified circumstances;(b) provision about appeals.(6) In this section—“appropriate national authority” means—(a) in relation to England, the Secretary of State,(b) in relation to Wales, the Welsh Ministers,(c) in relation to Scotland, the Scottish Ministers, and(d) in relation to Northern Ireland, the Department of Health;“relevant enforcement authority” means—(a) in relation to England, a local weights and measures authority,(b) in relation to Wales, a local weights and measures authority,(c) in relation to Scotland, a local weights and measures authority, and(d) in relation to Northern Ireland, a district council;“supplying” includes—(a) agreeing to supply;(b) offering or exposing for supply.”Member’s explanatory statement
This is intended to replace clause 103. Clause 103(2) allows regulations to apply enforcement provisions in the Consumer Protection Act 1987. The Product Regulation and Metrology Act 2025 repeals those provisions. The new clause recasts, and narrows, the powers in a way that avoids referring to the 1987 Act.
Baroness Merron
““filter” means a filter that is intended to be used when smoking a tobacco product or herbal smoking product (including a filter that forms part of, or that is intended to be inserted into, an item such as a cigarette holder or pipe);”Member’s explanatory statement
This defines “filter” for the purposes of my amendments to Part 5 of the Bill.
Baroness Merron
Member’s explanatory statement
See the explanatory statement for my amendment to clause 15.
Lord Udny-Lister (Con)
My Lords, while I am on my feet moving Amendment 149, I will also talk about the other amendments in my name. We must prevent an indiscriminate or blanket prohibition without proper scrutiny and consultation. I fear that, without these safeguards and measures, and with the approach being taken, years of success in smoking cessation will be reversed rapidly.
Further still, in the drafting of this Bill it is apparent that advertising is being looked at as merely a commercial persuasion. I would argue that this is wrong. We are forgetting that advertising is a channel of product differentiation and risk communication. We must therefore provide manufacturers with the opportunities to communicate factual and regulated information regarding relative risks and cessation pathways. Otherwise, we will be creating a system in which misinformation will flood the gap.
We must not allow a blanket prohibition on advertising vapes, nicotine pouches and heated tobacco products without consultation. To do so would be an affront to our business community and contrary to the way that things should be done. As already raised in Committee, half of all smokers now wrongly believe that vaping is as harmful as smoking. If communication is prohibited through an advertising ban, how do we correct misinformation such as this? How do we promote public health outcomes?
The impact assessment acknowledges potential unintended consequences for smoking cessation. These unintended consequences must be rooted out and the only way to achieve that at this stage is through wider and effective consultation. The amendments I have put forward all seek to prevent harm reduction being undermined, and on that basis I hope to gain support.
Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)
My Lords, Amendment 168 is in my name. I will also speak briefly to my Amendment 196, which is in the next group, but the subject matter is broadly similar. I am very grateful to my noble friends Lord Brady of Altrincham and Lord Naseby and the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, for signing these amendments.
These amendments, taken together, would serve the purpose of providing safeguards and guarantees for the hospitality sector within the Tobacco and Vapes Bill. I should be clear that they would not tie the hands of government in any way. They would not create carve-outs or specific loopholes, with the exception of a very narrow exemption in Amendment 168. They merely propose a requirement to consult specifically with the hospitality, retail and entertainment industries before making regulations in these areas.
I ask noble Lords, when thinking about these amendments, to consider the broader burdens currently faced by the hospitality industry. It is well known that the sector has been exposed to a number of challenges as a result of government policy in recent months and some aspects of this Bill have the potential to substantially add to these challenges. It is worth looking at the broader context, because the hospitality sector contributes £93 billion to the UK economy each year. It is the third-largest employer, with 3.5 million people employed in the sector. Since the 2024 Budget, over 89,000 jobs have been lost, which accounts for roughly 53% of all job losses in the economy. That is before the impact of the Employment Rights Act, which 49% of business leaders have said will make them less likely to hire new staff.
On business rates reforms, pubs have been granted a limited stay of execution, but, in the wider hospitality sector, the estimate is that it will cost the industry an additional £150 million, or the equivalent of about 12,500 jobs. The beer tax in the 2025 Budget has forced up the price of a pint by effectively eliminating the profit margin on beer through the alcohol hike of 3.55% from last month. That is all before the increases to national insurance, which have driven up operating costs across the board, as well as sky-high energy prices. This is an industry that is under considerable existential pressure.
It is important to reiterate these facts in light of the briefings from many of the public health charities that have been campaigning on this Bill. They claim that these amendments are not necessary. But every single UK hospitality industry association, including UK Hospitality, the British Beer and Pub Association and the Night Time Industries Association, has warned about the damages this Bill could do to the sector. These amendments are therefore needed because the industry has said that it has absolutely no more capacity to absorb additional costs.
While the Government have said that it is not their intention to legislate for smoke-free and vape-free places for the hospitality industry as it is not the right time, that statement carries the clear implication that they might choose to do so in the future. To be clear, these amendments would not stop the Government legislating in this area. They would merely require that they guarantee consultation, with an impact assessment, before doing so. Why the guarantee? It is because too often we see sectors with concerns around this area being dismissed for having vested interests—we have heard many arguments this evening around the same subject—and the Government heeding only the submissions of organisations that tell them what they want to hear. In view of this, we suggest that these amendments and safeguards are extremely important.
Lord Kamall (Con)
My Lords, I start by thanking my noble friends Lord Udny-Lister and Lord Sharpe for their amendments in this group. I begin with the amendments proposed by my noble friend Lord Udny-Lister. Many noble Lords have raised concerns about the unintended consequences of this Bill. Just yesterday, HMRC published data showing that legal tobacco sales in the United Kingdom fell by 52% between 2021 and 2025. That statistic will be welcomed by those who want to eradicate smoking, but there is still some way to go in encouraging smoking cessation. My noble friend’s amendments simply ask a question akin to that debated in group 5—namely, how far we should go with regulation of vaping and nicotine products, especially when we are trying to promote them as alternatives to smoking tobacco?
Of course, some regulation is certain to be necessary with products such as vapes, but we have to be careful that we confine them to responsible use. We should also be careful not to use a sledgehammer when a nuanced approach might be a more effective way forward in a particular circumstances and settings. If we overdo the restrictions, we risk driving smokers away from quit aids and alternatives such as vapes towards easily available alternatives—unfortunately, such as illicit tobacco, which we know is still too accessible to some smokers. Many noble Lords have spoken to their own experience in local authorities about trying to tackle illicit tobacco. In the right settings, advertising and displays of vaping products can play a role in encouraging adult smokers to switch from cigarettes to less harmful alternatives, and we know that many are already doing so. It is important for the Government to find the right balance.
I turn to the amendment from my noble friend Lord Sharpe of Epsom. There is really little that I can add to the case that he has made so persuasively. The hospitality sector has faced sustained pressure in recent years, including rising energy costs and an increase in the cost of taking on new employees, staff shortages in some areas and increasing regulatory burdens. It is therefore reasonable that when we introduce further restrictions, we carefully consider their cumulative impact on licensed venues.
My noble friend’s amendment is tightly drawn. It would apply only within the curtilage of premises licensed under the Licensing Act 2003; only where advertisements are not visible from outside; only in age-restricted venues with appropriate safeguards; and it explicitly excludes tobacco products. It also provides for regulations to be subject to the affirmative procedure, and requires consultation and a full impact assessment, something very much in line with better regulation, in which many noble Lords believe. That framework suggests a helpful attempt to strike a balance, maintaining strong protections for children and the wider public while recognising that adult-only controlled environments may justify a different approach. It seems reasonable to at least explore whether limited, carefully regulated flexibility of this kind could be accommodated without undermining public health objectives. I hope that the Minister will look favourably on such flexibility.
Baroness Merron (Lab)
My Lords, I am most grateful for the contributions to this debate. I begin with the amendments in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Udny- Lister, Amendments 149, 151, 155, 157, 159, 161, 163 and 169.
Survey data shows that there has been a significant growth in awareness of vaping promotion among young people, with 55% of all children aged 11 to 17 aware of promotion in shops. This figure relates to 2025, and that is up from 37% in 2022. We are therefore delivering on our manifesto commitment to stop vapes from being advertised to children, while still enabling them to be promoted by public health authorities as a means for adult smokers to quit smoking, something that noble Lords have emphasised correctly, once again, in this group.
Tobacco advertising, including for heated tobacco products, is already prohibited under the Tobacco Advertising and Promotion Act 2002, and will remain so under the Bill. On Amendment 168 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe, I can clarify that the advertising provisions do not restrict the use of, or sale of, products, and therefore should not overly impact on the hospitality sector. I will come back to reference to the hospitality sector, following the comments of the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, when we get to the final group, which is coming up next.
Evidence for tobacco has found that partial bans, as referred to in this amendment, are not as effective as comprehensive bans in reducing tobacco consumption. I therefore feel that it is extremely reasonable to draw similar conclusions for vape advertising. Under current legislation, there are already strict restrictions for vape advertising. We believe that the promotion of vaping to quit smoking is best led by the appropriate public health authorities, because they can provide tailored advice to the individual with the necessary behavioural support.
In response to the comments of the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, the Bill already includes defences for the limited circumstances in which advertising would be appropriate. As I outlined on the first day of Report, following my prior assurances on public health campaigns, we are introducing a specific defence which will strengthen this capability by allowing businesses, such as pharmacies and GPs—something that noble Lords rightly drew my attention to—to advertise non-branded vapes, if it is part of a campaign agreed with the public authority for public health purposes. We are not considering further exemptions due to the risk of loopholes, the potential for poorly enforced entry rules, and the fact that evidence has shown that comprehensive bans on tobacco advertising have reduced consumption, but partial bans, as I mentioned before, have had no significant effect.
On Amendment 152, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Udny-Lister, the language of “has reason to suspect” is standard practice and already included in the existing Tobacco Advertising and Promotion Act 2002. This wording is specifically designed to avoid loopholes and to ensure that those involved in the design of advertisements cannot evade responsibility by claiming ignorance where there are clear grounds for suspicion. I say again, this is standard legal practice.
Finally, on Amendment 153, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Udny-Lister, it is important that we recognise and respect the established criminal law system within each nation of the UK. As noble Lords will know, Scotland has a separate criminal justice system, and 12 months is the maximum penalty on summary conviction for this type of offence and is fixed in line with its criminal justice system. For the reasons that I have set out, I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Udny-Lister, will withdraw his amendment.
Baroness Merron
Member’s explanatory statement
See the explanatory statement for my amendment to clause 15.
Baroness Merron
Member’s explanatory statement
See the explanatory statement for my amendment to clause 15.
Baroness Merron
Member’s explanatory statement
See the explanatory statement for my amendment to clause 15.
Baroness Merron
Member’s explanatory statement
See the explanatory statement for my amendment to clause 15.
Baroness Merron
Member’s explanatory statement
See the explanatory statement for my amendment to clause 15.
Baroness Merron
Member’s explanatory statement
See the explanatory statement for my amendment to clause 15.
Baroness Merron
Member’s explanatory statement
See the explanatory statement for my amendment to clause 15.
Baroness Merron
“Exceptions for internet service providers (conduits, caching and hosting)(1) An internet service provider does not commit an offence under section 113, 116, 117 or 118 by—(a) providing access to a communication network, or(b) transmitting, in a communication network, information provided by a user, if the provider does not—(i) initiate the transmission,(ii) select the recipient of the transmission, or(iii) select or modify the information contained in the transmission.(2) The references in subsection (1) to providing access to, or transmitting information in, a communication network include storing the information transmitted so far as the storage—(a) is automatic, intermediate and transient,(b) is solely for the purpose of carrying out the transmission in the network, and(c) is for no longer than is reasonably necessary for the transmission.(3) An internet service provider does not commit an offence under section 113, 116, 117 or 118 by storing information provided by a user for transmission in a communication network if—(a) the storage of the information— (i) is automatic, intermediate and temporary, and(ii) is solely for the purpose of making more efficient the onward transmission of the information to other users at their request, and(b) the internet service provider—(i) does not modify the information,(ii) complies with any conditions attached to having access to the information, and(iii) upon knowing of a matter within subsection (4), promptly removes the information or disables access to it.(4) The matters within this subsection are—(a) that the information at the initial source of the transmission has been removed from the network;(b) that access to the information has been disabled;(c) that a court or administrative authority has ordered the removal from the network of, or the disablement of access to, the information.(5) An internet service provider does not commit an offence under section 113, 116, 117 or 118(1) by storing information provided by a user who is not acting under the authority or control of the provider if—(a) when the information was provided, the provider did not know that it was or contained a relevant advertisement, and(b) upon knowing that the information is or contains a relevant advertisement, the provider promptly removes the information or disables access to it.(6) In this section—“internet service provider” means a provider of—(a) a service that is made available by means of the internet, or(b) a service that provides access to the internet;“relevant advertisement” means an advertisement whose purpose is, or effect will be, to promote—(a) a tobacco product,(b) a herbal smoking product,(c) cigarette papers,(d) a vaping product, or(e) a nicotine product;“user” , in relation to an internet service provider, means a user of a service provided by the internet service provider.(7) In the definition of “internet service provider” in subsection (6), a reference to the internet includes a combination of the internet and an electronic communications service (as defined by section 32(2) of the Communications Act 2003).”Member’s explanatory statement
This creates exceptions to the advertising offences in relation to mere conduit services, caching services, and hosting services.
Baroness Merron
“Advertising defence: public health campaigns(1) Where a person is charged with an offence under any of sections 113 to 118 in relation to an advertisement whose purpose is to promote vaping products or nicotine products in general, or a category of such products, it is a defence for the person to show that they knew or reasonably believed that they were acting in accordance with arrangements made by a public authority. (2) A public authority may only make such arrangements for the purposes of promoting or protecting public health.(3) Where in accordance with subsection (1) it is a defence for a person charged with an offence to show a particular matter, the person is taken to show that matter if—(a) sufficient evidence of the matter is adduced to raise an issue with respect to it, and(b) the contrary is not proved beyond reasonable doubt.(4) A reference in this section to a “category” of vaping products or nicotine products does not include a brand.”Member’s explanatory statement
This creates a defence to the advertising offences created by the Bill for public health campaigns. The defence is available only where a person knows or reasonably believes that they are acting in accordance with arrangements made by a public authority.
Baroness Merron
Member’s explanatory statement
See the explanatory statement for my amendment to clause 15.
Baroness Merron
Member’s explanatory statement
See the explanatory statement for my amendment to clause 15.
Baroness Merron
Member’s explanatory statement
See the explanatory statement for my amendment to clause 15.
Baroness Merron
Member’s explanatory statement
See the explanatory statement for my amendment to clause 15.
Baroness Merron
Member’s explanatory statement
This is consequential on my amendment to Schedule 16, page 162, line 20
Baroness Merron
“(za) a filter that does not form part of a tobacco product or herbal smoking product;”Member’s explanatory statement
This extends the power under the clause to filters.
Baroness Merron
““filter” has the meaning given by section 111;”Member’s explanatory statement
This defines “filter” for the purposes of my amendment to clause 132.
Lord Udny-Lister (Con)
My Lords, it is really hard to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, when she gives a speech like that. Amendments 193, 194, 197 and 198 hope to address the powers to designate vape-free and heated tobacco-free places. The argument, really, is that it is all a bit over the top. There is limited evidence of harm from passive vaping compared with that of inhaling second-hand smoke. It is my fear that, as currently drafted, the Bill could inadvertently force ex-smokers to have relapses if they are using alternatives alongside smokers. That is what is going to happen. They are all going to be pushed into the same area, and that, I suggest, is the worst of all outcomes.
I further push the point that age-gated venues should be able to retain the discretion that they already have. Our hospitality and pub sectors need these safeguards.
Of course I agree with everybody that we must protect children but, in doing so, we must not inadvertently drive adults back to cigarettes and destroy our pubs in the process. That, I am afraid, is exactly what we run the risk of doing.
Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)
My Lords, I shall be super-brief, because I spoke broadly on my Amendment 196 in the previous group when I made the case—it is not hyperbole—that the hospitality sector faces an existential issue. I agree with all my noble friend Lord Udny-Lister’s words on this.
My Amendment 196 is extremely straightforward: it insists on a consultation if any regulations are made under Clauses 135 to 138 in relation to designating a place smoke-free or vape-free. Please consider the interests of the hospitality sector, which, as I highlighted in the previous group, is responsible for so much activity and employment in our economy.
I just finish by saying that I am shocked beyond compare that the noble Baroness, Lady Fox—she and I have been in this House for the same time—has only just noticed that the Liberals are illiberal.
Baroness Walmsley (LD)
My Lords, despite the comments of the previous two speakers, I will speak to Amendment 199, the purpose of which is simple: to make every future and renewed pavement licence issued by local authorities smoke-free.
Your Lordships will recall that pavement licences first appeared during the pandemic, when indoor hospitality was restricted. They gave cafés, pubs and restaurants a lifeline. It seemed obvious that these spaces should follow the same rules as indoors: no smoking. The LGA supported this, saying that
“it sets a level playing field for hospitality venues across the country and has a public health benefit of protecting people from unwanted second-hand smoke”.
It welcomed this national policy because it stopped the stupid situation of allowing people to smoke in a pub pavement area on one side of the road but not on the other if a local authority boundary ran down the middle of the road and they had different policies. Since then, pavement licences have become a permanent fixture. However, after some lobbying from some parts of the hospitality industry, the requirement for smoke-free was removed without proper consultation of health authorities.
In 2021, this House supported an amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner of Worcester, noting the missed opportunity to make all licences smoke-free. Amendment 199 seeks to honour that vote and ensure that this health-protecting measure is applied consistently.
There is currently a requirement for some seating to be smoke-free, but the distinction means very little when you talk about a very small bit of pavement. More than 10 councils have made smoke-free a condition of obtaining a pavement licence, including Liverpool, Manchester, Newcastle, Northumberland County Council and Durham—not outstandingly liberal authorities, as far as I can tell. Feedback shows that customers and businesses welcome the change. In Liverpool, a survey of premises found that 74% of those asked expressed support for the scheme, including many smokers. Councils also aim to reduce cigarette litter with this initiative, which would make outdoor seating areas cleaner, more welcoming environments.
Second-hand smoke is harmful at any level. It worsens asthma and other respiratory conditions, and contributes to heart disease, stroke and lung cancer. Smoke-free spaces are also popular with the public. Polling from ASH shows that 59% of people support banning smoking in outdoor areas of pubs, cafés and restaurants; indeed, 40% said that they would be more likely to visit these venues if smoking were banned outside. That is more than double the number of people who say that they would go less often, debunking the idea that smoke-free means customer-free. Making outdoor areas smoke-free is not only sensible but what the public want.
I regret that this issue is not covered by the recent consultation on smoke-free places. It is a shame that the Government felt that they were not able to include hospitality in that consultation at all and that they fell into this false narrative that smoke-free is somehow an economic threat to hospitality.
Less than 12% of the population smoke, so the financial viability of the hospitality industry is clearly not dependent on the continued consumption of tobacco, including outdoors. Indoor smoke-free legislation was a far more drastic intervention, and we heard many of these arguments from those opposed then. However, a survey in 2012 of nearly 5,000 pub customers reported that more than one in five visited the pub more often than before smoke-free legislation. I do hope that the Minister will, in future, consider looking at the pilots for smoke-free pavement licences to assess the economic relationship between the hospitality sector and smoking. As prevalence continues to fall, we must be at a tipping point soon, where these spaces will naturally become smoke-free.
This brings me to Amendment 196, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe of Epsom. I think we may disagree on the potential impact any restrictions will have on hospitality, but in any case, the Government would consult on any use of smoke-free powers as they are doing currently.
Moving on, I welcome Amendment 194A from the noble Lord, Lord Kamall, and the noble Earl, Lord Howe. There is no doubt that the public are keen to see more places where smoking and vaping are prohibited. However, this policy must be pursued not merely to cater to the things that people dislike, but also to ensure that it is addressing matters that are harmful to the public. Clearly, reducing children’s exposure to second-hand smoke passes that test. While the evidence of exposure to second-hand vapour remains unclear, I think we can agree that reducing any possible risks around children must be prioritised, following careful consultation.
In that respect, I do not support Amendments 194 and 195 from the noble Lord, Lord Udny-Lister, which would remove these powers altogether. However, there is a challenge in all of this. Given the high level of public misunderstanding about the difference in harms between vaping and smoking, as the noble Baroness, Lady Fox of Buckley, has said—and she is quite right —how do we ensure that in creating vape-free places we do not exacerbate those misconceptions? I talked to a young man the other day who asked me, “What are you doing in the House of Lords?” I explained about this Bill, and he said, “Oh, all my friends vape”. He said, “I think it is just as harmful as smoking, isn’t it?” QED. Of course it is not.
I welcome the commitment in the published consultation to treat vaping differently from smoking where it is providing support to smokers to quit. I am on the same side as the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, on that score. Will the Minister say more about how this policy will be communicated to improve public understanding that vaping is less harmful than smoking? How will any exemptions to indoor vaping regulations be used to best effect to encourage more smokers to see vaping as quitting aids?
It is disappointing to see only council-run playgrounds included in the ban on smoking in playgrounds. Why should children playing in settings not run by councils not be similarly protected? There are also other places, such as transport hubs, where the public and workers are regularly exposed to other people’s smoke, so are the Government planning to commit to look at these too?
Amendment 192A from the noble Earl, Lord Howe, is very interesting, but we do not think actors should have to smoke at work. I think it was pointed out in Committee that there are alternative products that can depict smoking for artistic purposes; in particular, I believe that the National Theatre has such a device. If it is good enough for that theatre, it is good enough for me. Moreover, Wales does not have this exemption in place, and it has not harmed Welsh theatres.
We do not think that Amendment 193 is appropriate either: most venues are vape- free anyway, and the law is just really catching up.
On Amendments 197 and 198, I do not think that heated tobacco should have special exemptions at all. Only 1% of the population use it and it is not recommended by NICE for cessation. However, I do have a couple of questions for the Minister about heated tobacco devices, because I have had a letter expressing some concern that the law is not terribly clear. The advertising offence in the Bill applies to any advert,
“whose purpose or effect is to promote … a tobacco product”.
So can the Minister confirm that heated tobacco devices—not just sticks—will be caught under this definition, as advertisement of the device might constitute promotion of the tobacco product?
I see that in Clause 132 the Government explicitly take the power to extend provisions in Part 6 to tobacco- related devices. I understand that this is to future-proof the advertising restrictions against any innovation in this space, as we know the tobacco industry is likely to use any loopholes. I ask the Minister: why are heated tobacco devices explicitly included in Clause 132? Is it because of the difficulties they have had recently with two big supermarkets advertising heated tobacco products? Is it just the devices they are advertising, or are they simply breaking the law about advertising the tobacco sticks themselves? A little clarification would be most welcome if the Minister could provide it, please.
Baroness Merron (Lab)
My Lords, I am grateful to noble Lords for their contributions on this last group of amendments. It may be helpful if I remind your Lordships’ House that, on 13 February, the Government published their consultation on free-from places. We are consulting on making outdoor public places, including children’s playgrounds, hospitals and schools, smoke-free and heated tobacco-free. Additionally, we are consulting on making outside playgrounds and schools vape-free.
With regard to indoor spaces that are currently smoke-free, we are consulting on also making these heated tobacco-free and vape-free. I want to emphasise—and I hear different opinions on this within your Lordships’ House—that the consultation does not consider extending these proposals to outdoor hospitality. I hope that this addresses the concerns raised under Amendments 194 and 197, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Udny-Lister, as well as Amendment 196 from the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe.
With regard to Amendment 193 from the noble Lord, Lord Udny-Lister, the vast majority of people—around 90% of those over 16—do not currently vape. Just because someone is present in an over-18 setting does not mean that they are content to be exposed to second-hand harms. This would be of particular concern to those who are medically vulnerable, whose conditions may not always be visible.
Additionally, under the proposals put forward in the consultation, those who wish to vape would still be able to do so in outdoor hospitality settings. I should say that we have been pleased to meet various stakeholders, including UKHospitality and the British Beer and Pub Association, and we have welcomed their input.
Furthermore, a number of establishments, as I am sure we are all aware, have already introduced their own policies restricting vaping indoors. These proposals provide consistency and clarity for the public and businesses, and that is crucial if we are thinking about legislation.
I turn to the evidence. Amendments 195 and 198 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Udny-Lister, question the need for the vape-free places and heated tobacco-free places clauses. I also refer to Amendment 194A in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Kamall.
We have already published a draft impact assessment alongside the consultation on free-from places. To the points made by the noble Earl, Lord Howe, this sets out the evidence base for the proposed policies. I encourage noble Lords to review the document, which is thorough, if they have not had the chance to do so already. I can say that we will reassess the evidence after the consultation is closed, and we will consider any additional evidence identified before deciding on final policy positions and publishing a final stage impact assessment alongside regulations.
Baroness Merron
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment ensures that the person responsible for displaying signs about heated tobacco-free premises in Scotland is the same as the person responsible for displaying no-smoking signs and no vaping signs.
Baroness Merron
“Review of Act(1) The Secretary of State must—(a) carry out a review of the operation of this Act during the relevant period, and(b) prepare and lay before Parliament a report setting out the conclusions of that review.(2) In carrying out the review the Secretary of State must, in particular—(a) consider any evidence as to the economic or health impacts of the Act, and(b) consult—(i) the Welsh Ministers,(ii) the Scottish Ministers, and(iii) the Department of Health in Northern Ireland.(3) In this section “the relevant period” means such period as the Secretary of State considers appropriate being a period of not less than 4 years, nor more than 7 years, beginning with the day on which this Act is passed.”Member’s explanatory statement
This requires the Secretary of State to review the operation of the Bill and lay a report before Parliament setting out the conclusions of that review.
Baroness Merron
Member’s explanatory statement
This and my other amendments to clause 165 reflect changes made by the Legislation (Procedure, Publication and Repeals) (Wales) Act 2025, which introduces the concept of a Welsh statutory instrument and makes related provision about procedure. There are no significant substantive changes to the procedure for regulations.
Baroness Merron
Member’s explanatory statement
This provides for clause 63 (alignment of definition of “tobacco product” in Scottish legislation) to come into force on the day on which the Bill is passed. The Bill currently provides for it to come into force 2 months later.
Baroness Merron
“(za) section 131 comes into force on the day on which this Act is passed;” Member’s explanatory statement
This provides for clause 131 (alignment of definition of “tobacco product” in old legislation) to come into force on the day on which the Bill is passed. The Bill currently provides for it to come into force 2 months later.
Monday 9th March 2026
(5 months ago)
Lords ChamberTobacco and Vapes Act 2026 Read Hansard Text Watch Debate Amendment Paper: HL Bill 172-I Marshalled list for Third Reading - (6 Mar 2026)
This text is a record of ministerial contributions to a debate held as part of the Tobacco and Vapes Act 2026 passage through Parliament.
In 1993, the House of Lords Pepper vs. Hart decision provided that statements made by Government Ministers may be taken as illustrative of legislative intent as to the interpretation of law.
This extract highlights statements made by Government Ministers along with contextual remarks by other members. The full debate can be read here
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Baroness Merron) (Lab)
My Lords, I will make a short statement on the position regarding legislative consent on this Bill. The Bill is UK-wide, and it has been developed in partnership with the Scottish Government, the Welsh Government and the Northern Ireland Executive. A legislative consent Motion was received from the Northern Ireland Assembly on 10 February 2025, from the Scottish Parliament on 29 May 2025 and the Senedd on 9 December 2025.
Following further amendments to the Bill on Report, supplementary legislative consent Motions have been sought from the Scottish Parliament and the Senedd. It has not been possible to complete this process before Third Reading. However, noting the strong support of the Scottish and Welsh Governments, we are hopeful that this process will conclude shortly. The Northern Ireland Executive has confirmed that their current legislative consent Motion is sufficient. I beg to move.
Schedule 16: Advertising etc: audiovisual and radio broadcasting
Amendment 1
Baroness Merron
(a) in paragraph (a),”Member’s explanatory statement
This makes a structural change to facilitate my amendment to Schedule 16, page 169, line 40.
Baroness Merron (Lab)
My Lords, Amendments 1 to 5 are minor and technical, and stem from the amendments that the Government made on Report on advertising. The amendments ensure consistency across the advertising-related restrictions in the Communications Act 2003. In particular, they will ensure that a business which manufactures or sells more than one type of product, such as vaping products and nicotine products, is in scope of the restrictions on sponsorship of prohibited products. It was always the Government’s intention to capture any business which manufactures or sells prohibited products, no matter how many different types of product they sold or manufactured. The amendments therefore provide consistency across the advertising-related restrictions and prevent the creation of a potential loophole. I beg to move.
Baroness Merron
“(b) in paragraph (b), after “other tobacco products” insert “, herbal smoking products or cigarette papers (or of two or more of those products)”.”Member’s explanatory statement
Section 368G(1)(b) of the Communications Act 2003, as amended, will refer to an undertaking whose principal activity is the manufacture etc of cigarettes or certain other products. The amendment spells out that this covers an undertaking whose principal activity is the manufacture etc of two or more of those products (for consistency with other amendments).
Baroness Merron (Lab)
My Lords, it has been a privilege to take this landmark Bill through your Lordships’ House. Smoking is the number one preventable cause of death, disability and ill health and tobacco claims around 80,000 lives every year. While tobacco remains the greatest threat, this legislation is about protecting future generations from the harms of not only tobacco but nicotine addiction.
I extend my thanks to noble Lords who have contributed from right across the House: in particular, on the Front Benches, the noble Lord, Lord Kamall, the noble Earls, Lord Howe and Lord Russell, and the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley. My thanks go also to the Secretary of State for his leadership and support and to former Minister Ashley Dalton MP, who advanced this Bill to your Lordships’ House.
I also want to pay tribute, as many of us do, to former Prime Minister the right honourable Rishi Sunak for his ambition for a smoke-free generation. I also thank the Chief Medical Officer, Sir Chris Whitty, for his expertise and unwavering focus, and all the officials who have played a crucial role, including the Bill team, policy teams, analysts, the Bill’s senior responsible owners, my private office and the Government Legal Department and the Office of the Parliamentary Counsel for their invaluable contributions.
Finally, I pay tribute to Ministers and officials from the devolved Governments for their collaborative approach. This is genuinely a four-nations Bill which will ensure that we create a smoke-free generation and tackle youth vaping in every corner of our country. I beg to move.
Lord Kamall (Con)
My Lords, we have now reached the conclusion of what many will see as a landmark Bill. I thank all noble Lords who have contributed throughout the various stages of its journey through your Lordships’ House, which began with its introduction as long ago as March last year. From these and other Benches, we heard a range of views on its various proposals and on the Bill itself. For some, it goes too far. For others, it does not go far enough. However, among all the disagreements, there were three points that I think noble Lords can agree on. First, smoking is bad for your health. Secondly, current evidence shows that vaping is less harmful than smoking tobacco. Thirdly, not vaping is healthier than vaping.
Beyond that, our debates covered a number of issues, from the evidence base to how to make vapes an attractive alternative to adults who wish to quit smoking while not appealing to children, as well as matters of individual liberty. We also debated the illicit sale of tobacco, the treatment of specialist retailers, cigarette filters, the compatibility of the Bill with the Windsor Framework and the enforcement of a regulatory regime of considerable complexity. We also probed the Government on the evidence behind some of the proposals, for example on the relative harm of heated tobacco compared with combustible tobacco for smokers who have tried vapes but did not like them, so reverted to cigarettes.
While we did not always agree, I thank the Minister and her officials for meeting my noble friend Lord Howe and me throughout the passage of the Bill. I particularly thank her for the concessions made: we particularly welcome the amendment permitting vape vending machines in secure mental health settings. These are vulnerable people in restricted environments for whom access to cessation aids is not a luxury but a genuine health need and it was right that the Bill was amended accordingly.
Monday 23rd March 2026
(4 months, 2 weeks ago)
Commons ChamberTobacco and Vapes Act 2026 Read Hansard Text Watch Debate Amendment Paper: Commons Consideration of Lords Amendments as at 23 March 2026 - large print - (23 Mar 2026)
This text is a record of ministerial contributions to a debate held as part of the Tobacco and Vapes Act 2026 passage through Parliament.
In 1993, the House of Lords Pepper vs. Hart decision provided that statements made by Government Ministers may be taken as illustrative of legislative intent as to the interpretation of law.
This extract highlights statements made by Government Ministers along with contextual remarks by other members. The full debate can be read here
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Care (Mrs Sharon Hodgson)
Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I beg to move, That this House agrees with Lords amendment 1.
Madam Deputy Speaker
With this it will be convenient to discuss:
Lords amendments 2 to 27.
Lords amendment 28, and Government amendments (a) to (c) consequential on Lords amendment 28.
Lords amendment 29, and Government amendments (a) to (c) consequential on Lords amendment 29.
Lords amendments 30 to 123.
Mrs Hodgson
Before I address Lords amendment 1, I would like to take this opportunity to pay tribute to my predecessor, my hon. Friend the Member for West Lancashire (Ashley Dalton), for her work on the Bill and the wider prevention agenda. I also extend my thanks to Baroness Merron for her work in the other place, ensuring that the Bill was expertly steered through the legislative process.
This is a landmark Bill, and I am honoured to have taken on responsibility for it as the House considers the amendments made in the other place. Creating a smoke-free generation is the most significant public health intervention since the ban on smoking in public places in 2007, under the last Labour Government. Tobacco claims around 80,000 lives every year, and in England it is responsible for a quarter of all cancer deaths. Someone is admitted to hospital almost every minute as a result of smoking, and up to two-thirds of deaths among current smokers can be attributed directly to smoking. Those are not abstract figures; they represent lives cut short by an entirely preventable harm.
The Bill also takes decisive action to tackle the rapid rise in the use of vapes and other nicotine products, particularly among young people, protecting a new generation from nicotine addiction. All the amendments to be considered today have been accepted by the Government, starting with Lords amendments 1, 2, 39 and 40, which change the parliamentary procedure for age verification regulations from negative to affirmative in England and Wales, and in Northern Ireland. The regulations will set out how retailers may ensure compliance when verifying a customer’s age. The changes were made as a result of a recommendation from the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee, which the Government accept.
Mrs Hodgson
I have always wanted to give way to the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon).
Jim Shannon
Well done, Minister—it has been a joy to see the hon. Lady’s elevation to the position she now holds, and I wish her well. Is she aware that Lord Dodds, a DUP Member of the other House, continued to push for changes to age verification in the Bill, and that my party’s primary motivation for the amendments was retailer protection? Without strict parliamentary scrutiny of age verification rules, small businesses will face disproportionate burdens compared with large supermarkets, and the moving age restriction, which rises by one year every year, makes manual verification increasingly difficult for shopkeepers over time. Has the Minister had the opportunity to address that issue, as it concerns many people?
Mrs Hodgson
We do not intend to place undue burdens on retailers. Indeed, it should be easier because there is one only date that anyone will have to remember when verifying somebody’s age, which is 1 January 2029. It should be a lot easier as nobody has to do any complicated arithmetic in their head any more. I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention.
Lords amendments 3 and 4 provide a narrow exemption to the Bill’s ban on vape vending machines, allowing them to be used in adult mental health settings in England and Wales, and only in areas “wholly or mainly” for patients. That aims to support adult in-patients who may face limits on accessing vaping products used to manage nicotine addiction. The Government remain committed to the wider ban on vending machines, to prevent children and young people from being able to bypass age restrictions on vapes and nicotine products. However, we are aware that adults with long-term mental health conditions have a much higher smoking prevalence than the general population, and ensuring that adult in-patients are able to access vapes from vending machines supports smoking cessation.
Lords amendments 6, 7, 9 to 18, 20, 25, 27, 29 to 31, and 92 to 102 relate to the creation of a licensing scheme in England, and allow for the licensing authority to enforce the future scheme in addition to trading standards. The change was made in response to feedback from local government stakeholders that such a measure would strengthen the scheme and help it to be managed more efficiently following its introduction. Lords amendments 21 to 24 and 28 allow the proceeds from the £2,500 fixed penalty notice for licensing offences in England and Wales to be retained by local authorities for enforcement purposes. The Bill previously required them to be returned to the consolidated fund after costs were deducted. That aligns with the Bill’s approach to allow local authorities to retain proceeds from the £200 fixed penalty notices. Local authorities will be able to reinvest proceeds into strengthening enforcement of the Bill, and help to tackle the illicit market.
Matt Rodda (Reading Central) (Lab)
May I, too, welcome the Minister to her post, and say how wonderful it is to see her leading on this important work? On a point of clarification, I am sure the measure she mentions will be welcomed by local authorities. Certainly the experience in my area is that there are hotspots where local authorities struggle with enforcement on a range of issues, whether that is antisocial behaviour, noise, or other activities. Will the measure apply to all local authorities, or just those in some parts of the country? It would be wonderful if it is all local authorities.
Mrs Hodgson
As far as I am aware, it is all local authorities—I am getting an affirmative nod from the Box, so I am happy to give my hon. Friend that reassurance.
The Government have also tabled amendments (a) to (c) consequential on Lords amendments 28, and amendments (a) to (c) consequential on Lords amendment 29, to correct an error arising from changes made on Report in the other place. Without these amendments, trading standards officers in Wales would lose the ability to issue certain fixed penalty notices for a short period. The amendments resolve that issue and ensure consistency of approach between England and Wales.
On the Bill’s ban on advertising vape and nicotine products, Lords amendments 72 and 106 to 109 create a specific defence and provide additional clarity for businesses, ensuring that they can promote non-branded vaping and nicotine products where that is done in an arrangement with a public health authority for public health reasons. It was always the Government’s intention to allow public authorities to continue to promote effective smoking cessation tools, and these amendments strengthen that. I am pleased that we can provide reassurances to healthcare professionals that they can continue to promote smoking cessation materials in agreement with public health authorities.
There are also a number of more technical Lords amendments—71, 104, 105, 110 and 123—relating to advertising. They ensure that the policy works as intended by ensuring consistency of approach, and by taking account of changes to other legislation. They support the implementation and enforcement of the advertising provisions in the Bill.
The issue of filters has been raised throughout the passage of the Bill, both in this House and in the other place. Action on filters has been proposed by parties from across the political spectrum, because of concerns about environmental harms and harms to health. However, parliamentarians have advocated for restricting filters in a number of different ways. Lords amendments 32 to 34, 37 and 38, 42 to 48, 51 to 59, 62, 77 and 78, and 103 therefore contain a suite of powers that will enable secondary legislation to regulate filters, should evidence suggest that this is necessary. Regulations could ban filters in the future, or regulate their packaging, advertising and display. The evidence on the effect of filters, including their direct health impact, is still emerging, so no decision has been made on the use of those powers. The Government will look to consult on using the powers only if we think that there is sufficient evidence to justify action.
Jim Allister
On the review of the Bill, can the Government give an absolute guarantee that all its parts will apply to the whole United Kingdom, and particularly Northern Ireland? We are still, alas, subject to the EU’s tobacco directive, which many believe conflicts with a key part of the Bill. If that aspect of the Bill is overturned in Northern Ireland, will the Government commit to legislating to ensure that it does apply across the whole UK?
Mrs Hodgson
We are content that the measures in the Bill, which are intended to apply to Northern Ireland, are compatible with the obligations under the Windsor framework. I hope that answers the hon. and learned Gentleman’s concern.
We hope that the review will be a clear demonstration of the Government’s commitment to monitoring progress against our smokefree ambition. Finally, Lords amendments 5, 8, 36, 41, 60 and 61, 63 to 76, 79, and 81 to 88 are technical amendments, some of which are consequential to the commencement of several other Acts. They also improve consistency in drafting across the Bill.
I encourage all Members to support all the amendments. These are meaningful changes that strengthen the Bill and respond to concerns raised by Members across the House and in the other place. The Government amendments tabled today will return to the other place for consideration, and I look forward to their timely agreement, and to the Bill completing its final stages.
Ms Julie Minns (Carlisle) (Lab)
Before I begin my brief speech, may I say how good it is to see my hon. Friend the Member for West Lancashire (Ashley Dalton) in the Chamber? We owe her a debt of gratitude for both introducing the Bill and piloting it through the House. She leaves behind—I was going to say large shoes, but that seems a bit rude—significant shoes to be filled, but I know they are shoes that the Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Care, my hon. Friend the Member for Washington and Gateshead South (Mrs Hodgson), is more than capable of filling, and I am very glad to see her in her place this evening.
I wish to speak briefly about Lords amendments 11 and 61, which, as we heard from my hon. Friend the Member for Falkirk (Euan Stainbank), clarify what we mean by a “relevant enforcement authority” and, in particular, clarify the duty that will be placed on that relevant enforcement authority to consider annually whether it is appropriate to carry out a programme of enforcement action. As has been said, we acknowledge, and know, that vaping can support adults who want to move away from smoking, but we nevertheless cannot ignore the rapid rise in youth vaping and the growing presence of illegal, non-compliant and counterfeit vapes and cigarettes in all our communities. That is why a robust, mandatory licensing framework is so urgently needed. The Bill will give the Government the power to introduce such a framework, and that can only be strengthened by a requirement for licensing authorities to consider annually the programme of enforcement.
Contrary to what the hon. Member for Windsor (Jack Rankin) seemed to suggest, one of the strongest arguments for licensing is its ability to combat the sale of illegal cigarettes and vapes on our high streets. Local authorities and enforcement bodies have warned repeatedly that rogue sellers are flooding the market with untested, high-nicotine, incorrectly labelled or counterfeit products, and my constituency is no exception. Just a few weeks ago, Cumberland council trading standards seized 6,000 illegal cigarettes in raids, and that was in addition to the £20,000-worth of illegal tobacco and vapes seized last summer. The introduction of on-the-spot fines of up to £2,500 and the ability to revoke retailers’ licences entirely are therefore welcome.
Mandatory licensing will also make it much easier to shut down dodgy shops that knowingly stock or distribute illegal vapes and cigarettes. Under the new framework, any premises found storing, displaying or supplying unregulated products will lose their licences, because licensing applies not just to the act of selling, but to the possession of regulated products for retail purposes. This means that enforcement officers will no longer have to rely on repeated seizures or warnings; they will have a fast, lawful route to closing down problem retailers for good.
In short, mandatory licensing is not just another layer of regulation; it is a powerful tool to crack down on illegal vapes, remove bad actors from our high streets, and support safer and more responsible retailing. More important, it will give local authorities the powers they need to shut down dodgy shops quickly, decisively and permanently. I therefore welcome both the Lords amendments and the Bill as a step forward to cleaning up our high streets and ensuring that we have a healthier, happier country.
Mrs Hodgson
With the leave of the House, Madam Deputy Speaker, I would like to place on the record my sincere thanks to all Members who have contributed to this thoughtful and constructive debate, and throughout the Bill’s passage in this House. It has been a real privilege to take it through this stage, following in the elegant and tiny footsteps but great ability of my hon. Friend the Member for West Lancashire (Ashley Dalton), who, along with our colleague Lady Merron in the other place, has done sterling work.
I am so grateful for the engagement of colleagues across the House, and for the shared commitment to improving public health and protecting future generations. As Members are aware, smoking remains the leading preventable cause of death, disability and ill health in this country. Despite significant progress, 5.3 million adults were still smoking cigarettes in 2024, and while tobacco remains the greatest threat, owing to its unique harms, we are also seeing a rapid rise in the use of vapes and other nicotine products, particularly among young people, creating a new generation at risk of harm and addiction. That is why this Bill matters, and why the action that we are taking today is so important.
Let me now turn to the points raised by hon. Members, who were small in number but mighty in their contributions. The shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Hinckley and Bosworth (Dr Evans), made an excellent speech, and I enjoyed hearing his thoughts—but he is not listening while I am talking about him.
The Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury (Torsten Bell)
She is trying to be nice to you!
Mrs Hodgson
I am trying to be nice, and the shadow Minister is ignoring me, but I really enjoyed listening to what he said about being a practising doctor, and about his concerns which made it so apparent that we had to do something about this. I am sure that, having got here, he is proud to have played a part in getting this legislation on to the statute book, for those very reasons. He asked me about the illicit market. The creation of a smokefree generation will prevent people from ever becoming addicted to smoking in the first place. When the age of sale was increased from 16 to 18, 1.3 million more people could no longer to be sold cigarettes, and would, in theory, be in the market for illegal cigarettes. In practice, the number of illicit cigarettes consumed fell by 25% between 2005-06 and 2007-08.
The Bill takes bold action to strengthen enforcement and crack down on rogue retailers. We are investing up to £10 million of new funding in trading standards annually until 2028-29 to tackle the illicit and under-age sale of tobacco and vapes, and to help enforce the law. That funding is being used to boost the trading standards workforce by hiring 120 apprentices across England. The illicit tobacco strategy establishes a cross-Government taskforce, enhancing the ability of His Majesty’s Revenue and Customs to disrupt organised crime. Between April 2015 and March 2023, over 10 billion cigarettes on which UK duty had not been paid were seized by His Majesty’s Revenue and Customs and Border Force. The hon. Member for Windsor (Jack Rankin) asked about the illicit market, so I hope that addresses some of his concerns.
The shadow Minister asked about an appropriate balance. The Bill rightly takes strong action against youth vaping while recognising the important role that vapes play in helping adult smokers to quit smoking. The Government have been cautious to strike the right balance between reducing the appeal to children and ensuring that vapes remain an accessible tool for smoking cessation. That is why the Bill provides powers to tackle the appeal of vapes to children through elements such as packaging, display, flavours and device features. However, in order to avoid unintended consequences for adult smoking rates, the scope of restrictions will be carefully considered and consulted on.
Dr Evans
I am glad the Minister has addressed many of the questions that I posed. One was about the designation of vape-free places, and I think there is consideration of what that will look like. How will the Government approach that? I would welcome it if she could at least set out the framework of what she might think about in her new role.
Mrs Hodgson
That is being looked at, and I can write to the shadow Minister with the details as we progress. I will commit to doing that.
Mary Glindon
I welcome the Minister to her place and congratulate her on her new role. She has a hard act to follow, but I am sure she will be brilliant in her job. Could she say what metrics the Government will use to measure whether the Bill successfully reduces youth vaping?
Mrs Hodgson
I will definitely write to my hon. Friend, rather than just guess, but I suppose that we will see fewer young people vaping—the numbers should go down. To quote chief medical officer Chris Whitty, as someone did in an excellent speech earlier:
“If you smoke, vaping is much safer; if you don’t smoke, don’t vape.”
That is what we want the message to be, but I will commit to writing to my hon. Friend about how we will follow the metrics.
I come to the contribution from my hon. Friend the Member for City of Durham (Mary Kelly Foy), who asked about the levy. The measures in this Bill to reduce the use of tobacco are world leading. Given that the Bill will create a smokefree generation, and that we have a proven and effective model for increasing tobacco duties, we do not think that introducing a new, bespoke levy is the best way forward.
My hon. Friend also asked about advertising. We must stop the advertising and promotion of products that risk addicting a new generation to nicotine. The Bill delivers on this Government’s manifesto commitment to stopping the blatant advertising of vapes to children while continuing to support adult smokers in quitting. She said that it would be appropriate for nicotine pouches to be in scope of the ban on advertising, and I can commit to that.
My hon. Friend the Member for Chatham and Aylesford (Tristan Osborne) made a very thoughtful contribution, which sadly was followed by a not-so-thoughtful contribution from the hon. Member for Windsor. He and the hon. and learned Member for North Antrim (Jim Allister) called this a “socialist Bill”, but I remind the House that it started its life under a Conservative Government, and was lost in the wash-up prior to the general election.
Mrs Hodgson
I will finish responding to the hon. Member’s ideological arguments. This is not about liberty or choice for smokers. Up to two thirds of deaths among smokers can be attributed to smoking; three quarters of smokers wish they had never started; and the majority want to quit. That is not freedom of choice. The tobacco industry took away their choice by addicting them at a very young age.
Jack Rankin
I thank the Minister for her implied compliment to the Leader of the Opposition, who voted against this Bill on Second Reading when the previous Prime Minister brought it forward. She voted against it because the Bill does not respect the proper relationship between the state and the individual, and does not deliver equality under the law, so we will take that as a compliment in the new Conservative party, which is being refreshed in an authentically conservative direction.
Mrs Hodgson
The freedom to be addicted—I think that is what the hon. Member has just defended. I am sure that those on his Front Bench will take note of that. He also asked me about smokefree places. No smoker wants to harm people, but they do so through second-hand smoke, as we all know. On 13 February, the Government published our consultation on “free from” places. As we have previously set out, this Government are consulting on making outdoor public places smokefree and free from heated tobacco, including children’s playgrounds and spaces outside a number of health, social care and educational settings. Children and medically vulnerable people who visit such places should not be exposed to harm through no choice of their own. Additionally, we are consulting on making areas outside playgrounds and schools vape-free. With regard to indoor spaces that are currently smokefree, we are consulting on making the majority free from heated tobacco and vape-free. The consultation does not consider extending the proposals to outdoor hospitality.
Moving on to the excellent speech from my hon. Friend the Member for Falkirk (Euan Stainbank), I can confirm that, for smoking cessation purposes, flavoured vapes can still be promoted by businesses if they have an agreement with public health authorities. We recognise that vape flavours are an important consideration for adult smokers who are seeking to quit smoking, which is why the Government recently committed to consulting on regulating flavour descriptors as a first step before considering broader restrictions on flavoured ingredients.
The hon. Member for South Antrim (Robin Swann), in his really good speech, mentioned concerns about Northern Ireland. The Bill is UK-wide and has been developed in close partnership with the Scottish Government, the Welsh Government and the Northern Ireland Executive. We are content that the measures in the Bill, which are intended to apply to Northern Ireland, are compatible with the obligations under the Windsor framework, as I said earlier. The UK Government notified the EU’s technical regulation information system—TRIS—that certain provisions in the Bill relate to Northern Ireland; this is a standard process, not an approval process. Certain EU member states issued opinions setting out concerns about the compatibility of the smokefree generation policy with EU law, and it is not unusual for member states to submit opinions on TRIS notifications. For instance, several member states recently wrote to France when it proposed a ban on nicotine pouches, despite several other member states having already introduced such a ban.
The Government have provided a comprehensive response to the opinions that we have received, which sets out the strong public health justification for the policy, and explains why the smokefree generation policy complies with EU law as it applies under the Windsor framework, and the European Commission has now responded, noting our response. This concludes the TRIS process. I hope that answers some of the hon. Gentleman’s concerns.
We had really good contributions from my hon. Friends the Members for Dartford (Jim Dickson) and for Carlisle (Ms Minns). If I have not answered any of their questions because I was not quick enough to write stuff down, I commit to writing to both.
I very much hope that this House will support all the amendments under consideration, and that the Governments amendments will return to the other place for due consideration. I hope that this landmark Bill can complete its passage shortly, and that we can move forward with delivering a smokefree UK.
Lords amendment 1 agreed to.
Lords amendments 2 to 28 agreed to, with Commons financial privileges waived in respect of Lords amendments 21 and 22.
Government amendments (a) to (c) consequential on Lords amendment 28 made.
Lords amendment 29 agreed to, with Commons financial privileges waived.
Government amendments (a) to (c) consequential on Lords amendment 29 made.
Lords amendments 30 to 123 agreed to, with Commons financial privileges waived in respect of Lords amendments 32 to 34, 37, 38, 43 to 48, 51 to 59, 62, 77 and 78.
National Insurance Contributions (Employer Pensions Contributions) Bill: Programme (No. 2)
Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 83A(7)),
That the following provisions shall apply to the National Insurance Contributions (Employer Pensions Contributions) Bill for the purpose of supplementing the Order of 17 December 2025 (National Insurance Contributions (Employer Pensions Contributions) Bill: Programme):
Consideration of Lords Amendments
(1) Proceedings on consideration of Lords Amendments shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion three hours after their commencement.
Subsequent stages
(2) Any further Message from the Lords may be considered forthwith without any Question being put.
(3) Proceedings on any further Message from the Lords shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion one hour after their commencement.—(Imogen Walker.)
Question agreed to.
Monday 20th April 2026
(3 months, 3 weeks ago)
Lords ChamberTobacco and Vapes Act 2026 Read Hansard Text Watch Debate Amendment Paper: HL Bill I82–I Motion for Consideration of Commons Consequential Amendments - (17 Apr 2026)
This text is a record of ministerial contributions to a debate held as part of the Tobacco and Vapes Act 2026 passage through Parliament.
In 1993, the House of Lords Pepper vs. Hart decision provided that statements made by Government Ministers may be taken as illustrative of legislative intent as to the interpretation of law.
This extract highlights statements made by Government Ministers along with contextual remarks by other members. The full debate can be read here
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
Baroness Merron
That this House do agree with the Commons in their Amendments 28A, 28B, 28C, 29A, 29B and 29C.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Baroness Merron) (Lab)
My Lords, Amendments 28A, 28B, 28C, 29B and 29C were tabled by the Government in the other place to correct an error arising from amendments made in your Lordships’ House on Report. Without these amendments, trading standards officers in Wales would lose the ability to issue certain fixed penalty notices for the existing offence of proxy purchasing for a short period of time. The error would also have prevented trading standards in Wales from being able to issue fixed penalty notices for the sale of tobacco to those under the age of 18 before the smoke-free generation policy takes effect on 1 January 2027. This is in contrast to England where trading standards will be able to issue fixed penalty notices for these offences. This was obviously an unintended error and, if left unresolved, would have created a difference between the enforcement regimes in England and Wales. I am pleased therefore that we have been able to resolve the issue with these six narrow amendments, and I hope noble Lords will be supportive in their considerations. I beg to move.
Lord Naseby (Con)
My Lords, I understand the background, having been involved in the early stages of the Bill. Nevertheless, it upsets a great many people in that industry that the Government have not listened to the strong representations of the retailers and those who have knowledge of the industry. We have a situation now where we have a £200 penalty, which is huge by any yardstick, for the revised incidences. We are expecting a new Welsh Government fairly soon, and they may not be too happy with what has now been amended. However, I will say no more than that I think the time will come when the present Government and—I am sorry to say—those on my own side who believe in this idea as a whole will accept that it is totally out of date in relation to what is happening in the world. What we really need is a proper understanding of how we educate people not to take up smoking.
Lord Kamall (Con)
My Lords, I should be clear that, given this Motion brings forward an amendment that corrects a technical error and the Government have explained their rationale, we will not oppose it.
Baroness Merron (Lab)
My Lords, I again thank your Lordships’ House for its attentive scrutiny throughout the passage of the Bill. I pay tribute to the Front Benches and to noble Lords on all sides of the House.
I say to the noble Lord, Lord Naseby, that, as I have explained and his own Front Bench has confirmed, these are purely technical amendments to make this area of the Bill workable. It is a matter that had much debate. I assure the noble Lord, as I have done on a number of occasions, that we have worked closely with retailers and will continue to do so. I appreciate that he is not a supporter of the Bill, and it is on that point that I differ with him.
I urge all noble Lords to accept these amendments and note that this afternoon marks the end of the Bill’s journey through Parliament. This is a landmark Bill that will create a smoke-free generation, and it will be the biggest public health intervention in a generation. I assure all noble Lords that it will save lives. I commend it to the House.