Lords Chamber
14:37
14:37
14:37
Baroness Sherlock, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Labour)
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Baroness Sherlock, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Labour)
My Lords, the government would like to thank Liz Smith for the work and insights that went into the independent review into earnings related overpayments of Carer's Allowance. We are carefully considering the findings from the review, and we will publish the report and our response by the end of this year. We have already taken steps to improve Carer's Allowance, including implementing the highest ever increase to the earnings limit. ever increase to the earnings limit.
14:38
Baroness Pitkeathley (Labour)
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Baroness Pitkeathley (Labour)
I thank my noble friend for that response and I think I can feel I trust, I can feel hopeful about it and that when the government response comes, it will be both positive and compassionate. But I hope my noble friend will agree that the most important thing we have to avoid in future is the prosecution of carers, than the great distress caused to them by inadvertently going over the earnings limit when claiming Carer's Allowance. The government has pledged to increase the earnings limit and to keep it pegged to the National Living Wage.
Can my noble friend confirm that this will happen from next year?
Can my noble friend confirm that this will happen from next year?
14:38
Baroness Sherlock, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Labour)
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Baroness Sherlock, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Labour)
Hear, hear. My Lords, I'm grateful for my noble friend Patience. And I'm afraid I must ask her to be patient for just a little longer. On the question, firstly, on the very important question of earnings related overpayments, I mean, we are very conscious that some carers find this extremely difficult and hence the need for the report. We have we have said we have committed to keeping the weekly Carer's Allowance earnings limit pegged to 16 hours of work a week at the national Living Wage level.
That meant that last April it was a record earnings jump in the earnings limit. It jumped up from £151 a week to £196 a week. We'll be announcing the earnings limit from next April in the next few weeks. My Lord, I do. I do hope that the House appreciates how difficult this has been, but also that we are determined to get to the bottom of it. Carer's allowance is an unusual benefit. If you run a pound below the threshold, you get the lot, you earn a pound over the threshold, you get nothing.
So it has taken quite some work, but we're hoping very soon the report will be out.
That meant that last April it was a record earnings jump in the earnings limit. It jumped up from £151 a week to £196 a week. We'll be announcing the earnings limit from next April in the next few weeks. My Lord, I do. I do hope that the House appreciates how difficult this has been, but also that we are determined to get to the bottom of it. Carer's allowance is an unusual benefit. If you run a pound below the threshold, you get the lot, you earn a pound over the threshold, you get nothing.
So it has taken quite some work, but we're hoping very soon the report will be out.
14:39
Lord Palmer of Childs Hill (Liberal Democrat)
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Lord Palmer of Childs Hill (Liberal Democrat)
Lib Dems, Lib Dems.
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My my my Lords thank thank you. The Minister for that reassurance. And we of course wait for the And we of course wait for the independent review. But in the meantime, could the noble Lady, the Minister, say what steps are being Minister, say what steps are being taken to ensure that carers are not unfairly penalised for minor or unintentional breaches of earnings unintentional breaches of earnings rules? And will the government consider writing off historical overpayments, where department
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My my my Lords thank thank you. The Minister for that reassurance. And we of course wait for the And we of course wait for the independent review. But in the meantime, could the noble Lady, the Minister, say what steps are being Minister, say what steps are being taken to ensure that carers are not unfairly penalised for minor or unintentional breaches of earnings unintentional breaches of earnings rules? And will the government consider writing off historical overpayments, where department
14:40
Baroness Sherlock, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Labour)
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overpayments, where department error is a significant factor? Yeah.
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My Lords, what the government will do in response to this, I'm afraid the noble Lord will also have to be patient for just a have to be patient for just a little longer. But it was a very detailed report, over 100 pages long, with lots of detailed recommendations. We have been through it in an equally detailed manner, and we'll be publishing a proper response very shortly. In the meantime, the government has done a number of things to make a difference. We have already, for example, improved guidance to help staff make judgements about the way they treat overpayments in earnings.
And the crucial thing that my noble friend asked just now by increasing the earnings limit so much, that means a lot of people will not then be caught by this issue at all. It does mean, for example, by the end of, by, by by the end of this decade, that another 60,000 people will actually be able to claim Carer's Allowance. So we've already taken significant steps to improve things. We'll be doing more in the months ahead. But the detail, I'm afraid he must wait for the response to the report.
Baroness Sherlock, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Labour)
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overpayments, where department error is a significant factor? Yeah.
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My Lords, what the government will do in response to this, I'm afraid the noble Lord will also have to be patient for just a have to be patient for just a little longer. But it was a very detailed report, over 100 pages long, with lots of detailed recommendations. We have been through it in an equally detailed manner, and we'll be publishing a proper response very shortly. In the meantime, the government has done a number of things to make a difference. We have already, for example, improved guidance to help staff make judgements about the way they treat overpayments in earnings.
And the crucial thing that my noble friend asked just now by increasing the earnings limit so much, that means a lot of people will not then be caught by this issue at all. It does mean, for example, by the end of, by, by by the end of this decade, that another 60,000 people will actually be able to claim Carer's Allowance. So we've already taken significant steps to improve things. We'll be doing more in the months ahead. But the detail, I'm afraid he must wait for the response to the report.
14:41
Lord Young of Cookham (Conservative)
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Lord Young of Cookham (Conservative)
Lords. Further to the reply that the Minister gave a few moments ago, why does the Carer's Allowance, unlike other benefits, have a so-called cliff edge? If you earn £1 over, you lose all the allowance. Surely there should be a taper, as with other benefits, to avoid some of the problems which Baroness Pitkeathley has raised.
14:41
Baroness Sherlock, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Labour)
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Baroness Sherlock, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Labour)
Yeah. a long standing. The real the real difference is that Carer's Allowance, for example, unlike Universal Credit is not actually means tested. So it is it is a benefit which is there to recognise that somebody may not be able to work or not be able to work as much because they're caring. So the only the requirements are that you must be providing care for 35 hours a week to someone in receipt of a relevant DWP benefit. But also, you mustn't be in gainful employment, which we class as being 16 hours a week at the National Living Wage.
And you mustn't be a full time student. That means, for example, that people it's an individual benefit. There may be somebody, for example, a woman in a household where she has no independent income of her own, but there is income in the household. She can still travel Carer's allowance. Having said all of that, we have said we would like to look at the way this works. It turns out because unlike Universal Credit, which was built with a taper in mind and automatic earnings from the HMRC Carer's Allowance had none of that, either in the systems or the IT or anything else.
So we've begun to look at other ways to automate certain kinds of earnings coming over from HMRC. What would it take to do a taper. So we are looking at that, but I don't want to raise expectations too quickly. This is a significant piece of work to modernise the system and it will take some years, but we are looking take some years, but we are looking at it.
And you mustn't be a full time student. That means, for example, that people it's an individual benefit. There may be somebody, for example, a woman in a household where she has no independent income of her own, but there is income in the household. She can still travel Carer's allowance. Having said all of that, we have said we would like to look at the way this works. It turns out because unlike Universal Credit, which was built with a taper in mind and automatic earnings from the HMRC Carer's Allowance had none of that, either in the systems or the IT or anything else.
So we've begun to look at other ways to automate certain kinds of earnings coming over from HMRC. What would it take to do a taper. So we are looking at that, but I don't want to raise expectations too quickly. This is a significant piece of work to modernise the system and it will take some years, but we are looking take some years, but we are looking at it.
14:42
14:43
Baroness Sherlock, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Labour)
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Baroness Sherlock, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Labour)
I'm so grateful to the Lord for that and trust him to say the thing I should have said right at the outset. I'm very grateful to him for raising it with all of his experience. He's seen this close up. I know he knows anyone who's worked in professional social care, knows just how much we all depend on the care of unpaid carers who make all of this possible. It is, in fact, I'm told that the 20th of November is Carer's Rights Day, so I would like to take the opportunity to pay tribute to all of the unpaid carers who work so hard day in, day out to look after not just their themselves but the people around them that they care for, but also the whole of society depends on them.
So I thank him for that very helpful nudge and I'm very pleased to do so.
So I thank him for that very helpful nudge and I'm very pleased to do so.
14:43
14:44
Baroness Sherlock, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Labour)
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Baroness Sherlock, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Labour)
Well, Lord Sikka admitted more than 150,000 workers in three years and there have been changes to the immigration rules. But that won't stop those who are wanting to build a career in the sector, because there are there is a transition period until July 2028, which allows, for example, in-country applications from people who came in by other visa routes. So it means care providers could recruit, for example, a graduates or people who come in other ways. However, my noble friend is absolutely right that on the 1st of July we laid immigration rule changes, which included closing the social care visa route to overseas recruitment.
That said, there remains significant numbers of international care workers who are looking for work in the UK who haven't had the chance to support the system as they wanted. New measures have already come into effect, which require care providers in England to prioritise recruiting international care workers who were already in the UK and require new employment. But also more generally, DWP is doing a lot to try and encourage people into social care. We're working with adult social care bodies and we've been looking we've been developing recruitment events, doing events for the sector to encourage people into this.
We want people who want to work, who are committed professionals to work in this sector, and we will do what we can to encourage them.
That said, there remains significant numbers of international care workers who are looking for work in the UK who haven't had the chance to support the system as they wanted. New measures have already come into effect, which require care providers in England to prioritise recruiting international care workers who were already in the UK and require new employment. But also more generally, DWP is doing a lot to try and encourage people into social care. We're working with adult social care bodies and we've been looking we've been developing recruitment events, doing events for the sector to encourage people into this.
We want people who want to work, who are committed professionals to work in this sector, and we will do what we can to encourage them.
14:45
14:45
Baroness Sherlock, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Labour)
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Baroness Sherlock, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Labour)
The Lord raises a very important point, and certainly I've met with organisations over the years who work with young carers. Schools are becoming increasingly aware of these pressures, and I think good schools with good pastoral care systems are identifying them and making sure that they both they get the support they need, but also that they're aware if there are perhaps broader issues than the home with which other authorities might need to know. But the noble Lord will know this doesn't stop, of course, at 18, and there are issues for young adult carers who want to be able to carry on, for example, and complete their studies.
And fortunately, if somebody works is studying, doing less than 21 hours a week of supervised study, they can still they can still claim Carer's Allowance, for example. But also we're looking at how we can best identify and support young carers to enable them to combine their study with their caring, because we want to make sure their childhood isn't ruined and that of young adults, they have a chance to make a life for themselves, as well as caring for those that they love. The level of Carer's Allowance.
And fortunately, if somebody works is studying, doing less than 21 hours a week of supervised study, they can still they can still claim Carer's Allowance, for example. But also we're looking at how we can best identify and support young carers to enable them to combine their study with their caring, because we want to make sure their childhood isn't ruined and that of young adults, they have a chance to make a life for themselves, as well as caring for those that they love. The level of Carer's Allowance.
14:46
14:46
Baroness Sherlock, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Labour)
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Baroness Sherlock, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Labour)
I think I'd say to my noble friend one of the differences, of course, as I began to explain to the noble Lord Lord Young of Cookham, was that Carer's Allowance is is not a means tested benefit. So if someone's on a low income and is doing some caring, they can also apply for a means tested benefit such as Universal Credit or, if they're older, pension Credit. And although they can't usually get both of those benefits, if they do get one of those benefits, then they can get a they can get an extra £2,400 a year in Universal Credit or Pension Credit to acknowledge that caring.
But having said that, the government is determined to make sure this this maintains its value and that it's increased by CPI every year and new rates for 2026 will be announced in the next few weeks. The government, I should say, is spending a record £4.5 billion this year on supporting a million carers through Carers Allowance.
But having said that, the government is determined to make sure this this maintains its value and that it's increased by CPI every year and new rates for 2026 will be announced in the next few weeks. The government, I should say, is spending a record £4.5 billion this year on supporting a million carers through Carers Allowance.
14:47
Baroness Fraser of Craigmaddie (Conservative)
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Baroness Fraser of Craigmaddie (Conservative)
My Lords.
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Laming reminded us. Unpaid carers do a very challenging, varied and extremely challenging, varied and extremely difficult job. But they do it invisibly. So what is the government doing to ensure that the visibility of unpaid carers is heightened? And whether it's your heightened? And whether it's your your interactions with DWP or with health and care services, that those providing support for these very complicated interactions to this very invisible and very
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Laming reminded us. Unpaid carers do a very challenging, varied and extremely challenging, varied and extremely difficult job. But they do it invisibly. So what is the government doing to ensure that the visibility of unpaid carers is heightened? And whether it's your heightened? And whether it's your your interactions with DWP or with health and care services, that those providing support for these very complicated interactions to this very invisible and very
14:48
Baroness Sherlock, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Labour)
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this very invisible and very important population are, are seen and are supported. Yeah.
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Yeah. That the noble Lady raises a very a very important question. I'm not surprised, given her charity work, that she's aware of this and of the role of carers. Just a couple of quick things and what DWP does do and other parts of government do is to support those events which highlight them. So, for example, I'm sure she knows there was Carers Week. This year was back in June. Carers Rights Day is on Thursday and the departments have been involved in those trying to highlight the importance of this and engage with people.
For example, I know that on tomorrow night carers UK is holding a reception and I know my hon. Friend Sir Stephen Timms, who's the Minister in my department, and the Minister, Kate Dearden from DTE, are both going to that reception to market, which is a really important point. Hopefully even having this conversation will help to raise awareness of that question.
Baroness Sherlock, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Labour)
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this very invisible and very important population are, are seen and are supported. Yeah.
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Yeah. That the noble Lady raises a very a very important question. I'm not surprised, given her charity work, that she's aware of this and of the role of carers. Just a couple of quick things and what DWP does do and other parts of government do is to support those events which highlight them. So, for example, I'm sure she knows there was Carers Week. This year was back in June. Carers Rights Day is on Thursday and the departments have been involved in those trying to highlight the importance of this and engage with people.
For example, I know that on tomorrow night carers UK is holding a reception and I know my hon. Friend Sir Stephen Timms, who's the Minister in my department, and the Minister, Kate Dearden from DTE, are both going to that reception to market, which is a really important point. Hopefully even having this conversation will help to raise awareness of that question.
14:49
Lord Coaker, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Labour)
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Lord Coaker, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Labour)
I rise to ask the question.
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My Lords, the Defence Industrial Strategy. Set a. Vision to make the UK defence sector more competitive, innovative sector more competitive, innovative and resilient, including measures backing UK businesses, lowering barriers to entry and increasing competitiveness by supporting SMEs through the Defence Office for Small Business Growth, reforms to social value and exploring an offset policy. Regional Defence Growth Deals, supported by £250 million and establishing the Office of Defence Exports, helping
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My Lords, the Defence Industrial Strategy. Set a. Vision to make the UK defence sector more competitive, innovative sector more competitive, innovative and resilient, including measures backing UK businesses, lowering barriers to entry and increasing competitiveness by supporting SMEs through the Defence Office for Small Business Growth, reforms to social value and exploring an offset policy. Regional Defence Growth Deals, supported by £250 million and establishing the Office of Defence Exports, helping
14:49
Lord Beamish (Labour)
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of Defence Exports, helping businesses compete globally. Can I thank my noble. Friend for that answer? Under the National Shipbuilding policy, the Minister of Defence is committed to place UK shipbuilding orders in UK yards to ensure a continual drumbeat of work. Therefore, can I ask my noble friend why, under the Defence Maritime Services next generation contract, which has just been awarded to Serco, 24 tugs and pilot boats will be built in by Dharma in the Netherlands. Can I ask my noble friend why we're exporting UK defence jobs to Holland and to a company which has recently just been bailed out by the Dutch government? Can I ask him to follow the German government's recent announcement to cancel its frigate order with Dharma and place those Yeah.
Lord Beamish (Labour)
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of Defence Exports, helping businesses compete globally. Can I thank my noble. Friend for that answer? Under the National Shipbuilding policy, the Minister of Defence is committed to place UK shipbuilding orders in UK yards to ensure a continual drumbeat of work. Therefore, can I ask my noble friend why, under the Defence Maritime Services next generation contract, which has just been awarded to Serco, 24 tugs and pilot boats will be built in by Dharma in the Netherlands. Can I ask my noble friend why we're exporting UK defence jobs to Holland and to a company which has recently just been bailed out by the Dutch government? Can I ask him to follow the German government's recent announcement to cancel its frigate order with Dharma and place those Yeah.
14:50
Lord Coaker, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Labour)
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Lord Coaker, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Labour)
Well, first of all, let me I'll look at the specific example that my noble friend has raised with respect to the awarding of that particular contract. What I would say to my noble friend, however, is that as well as that example which he gave, I could also give other examples of where we have been successful in ensuring that shipbuilding is seen as something of a renaissance in our country, not least the recent awarding by the recent winning of the contract from Norway for type 26 frigates on on the Clyde, which was an enormous boost to British shipbuilding and was also an enormous boost to that part of Scotland.
And that's the sort of example we want to build on as well. But I will look at the example that he raised conservative. example that he raised conservative.
And that's the sort of example we want to build on as well. But I will look at the example that he raised conservative. example that he raised conservative.
14:51
Lord Robathan (Conservative)
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Lord Robathan (Conservative)
As the Minister does. I'm much encouraged by what he says knows that defence procurement is incredibly bureaucratic, which slows down any decisions. I don't know if it's affected this decision, but it slows down any decisions that UK made kit rather than buying stuff off the sale. So can I. Can the Minister please look carefully at how we can get rid of some of procurement?
14:51
Lord Coaker, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Labour)
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Lord Coaker, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Labour)
We've we've just recruited recently a new national armaments director where our certain reforms taking place within the Ministry of Defence. But let me say this to the to the noble Lord and to the House. Why is it that in wartime we have an urgent operational requirement that cuts through bureaucracy, cuts through red tape and allows us to deliver the weapons, the equipment that our armed forces need? And surely it's that sort of attitude, that sort of culture that we need to ensure operates in peacetime.
It shouldn't take a crisis or war to actually deliver the things that we need.
It shouldn't take a crisis or war to actually deliver the things that we need.
14:52
Lord Cromwell (Crossbench)
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Lord Cromwell (Crossbench)
Across Spain.
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My Lords. The real. Barrier for UK SMEs
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Barrier for UK SMEs manufacturers is the time it takes to secure contracts, typically to secure contracts, typically years, even for upgrades of kit. By contrast, as the noble Lord Minister knows, I recently hosted Minister knows, I recently hosted an event exploring ways to link UK manufacturers with Ukrainian software developers who are innovating and making daily, daily My Lords updated wearable drone detection kit, which is saving detection kit, which is saving soldiers lives in Ukraine every day and our troops do not have.
Can the noble Lord, the Minister, tell the House how the Defence Industrial Strategy will engage with SMEs, for example, in supplier networks like the Neutral Vendor Framework for innovation, and also whether this innovation, and also whether this could include cross-border joint ventures with innovative frontline experience elsewhere of the sort
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My Lords. The real. Barrier for UK SMEs
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Barrier for UK SMEs manufacturers is the time it takes to secure contracts, typically to secure contracts, typically years, even for upgrades of kit. By contrast, as the noble Lord Minister knows, I recently hosted Minister knows, I recently hosted an event exploring ways to link UK manufacturers with Ukrainian software developers who are innovating and making daily, daily My Lords updated wearable drone detection kit, which is saving detection kit, which is saving soldiers lives in Ukraine every day and our troops do not have.
Can the noble Lord, the Minister, tell the House how the Defence Industrial Strategy will engage with SMEs, for example, in supplier networks like the Neutral Vendor Framework for innovation, and also whether this innovation, and also whether this could include cross-border joint ventures with innovative frontline experience elsewhere of the sort
14:53
Lord Coaker, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Labour)
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experience elsewhere of the sort I've just referred to. We have established and are looking to grow Defence Office for, for small business and and that is particularly important. But again, I think the point the noble Lord makes is an extremely good one. The idea that the the solution is always massive business has been shown by Ukraine not to be the case. The development of small business, small industry and the noble Lord gives the example. Lord Cromwell gives the example of drone manufacturer.
Drone manufacture on a small time basis has been absolutely essential to the Ukrainian effort against the illegal Russian threat. And I think the point that he makes about what we can learn from that and how we can develop that sort of capability and capacity is an important lesson for us all, and something we need to to learn from. And as I say, the office for Small Business Growth will take that forward.
Lord Coaker, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Labour)
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experience elsewhere of the sort I've just referred to. We have established and are looking to grow Defence Office for, for small business and and that is particularly important. But again, I think the point the noble Lord makes is an extremely good one. The idea that the the solution is always massive business has been shown by Ukraine not to be the case. The development of small business, small industry and the noble Lord gives the example. Lord Cromwell gives the example of drone manufacturer.
Drone manufacture on a small time basis has been absolutely essential to the Ukrainian effort against the illegal Russian threat. And I think the point that he makes about what we can learn from that and how we can develop that sort of capability and capacity is an important lesson for us all, and something we need to to learn from. And as I say, the office for Small Business Growth will take that forward.
14:53
Baroness Humphreys (Liberal Democrat)
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Baroness Humphreys (Liberal Democrat)
Lord Deben Lib Dem.
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My Lords, I declare. Lib Dem. Lib dem benches.
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Thank you. I declare. An interest in that. One of my sons works in defence procurement. sons works in defence procurement. So in light of concerns raised about the reliance on overseas about the reliance on overseas supply chains, can the Minister set out what steps the government is taking to ensure that procurement decisions actually support UK based
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My Lords, I declare. Lib Dem. Lib dem benches.
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Thank you. I declare. An interest in that. One of my sons works in defence procurement. sons works in defence procurement. So in light of concerns raised about the reliance on overseas about the reliance on overseas supply chains, can the Minister set out what steps the government is taking to ensure that procurement decisions actually support UK based
14:54
Lord Coaker, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Labour)
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Lord Coaker, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Labour)
decisions actually support UK based manufacturers, so that our defence capability is not dependent on foreign production?
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We're doing everything we can to support UK manufacturing. Let me say one of the reasons why we're say one of the reasons why we're doing that. As I've said many times, the Ukraine has been a wake up call for US. Manufacturing industry in for US. Manufacturing industry in this country over decades has been allowed to decline in a way which puts our homeland defence at risk. puts our homeland defence at risk. So it's in our own defence industry and our own national interest to grow our defence industries.
So that's why it will be at the heart of what we do. But it's not only what we do here. The government through. And the noble Baroness will have seen that. The carrier strike group out in Indo-Pacific now back into the Mediterranean, there have been numerous there have been numerous roundtables, conferences and industry events on the carrier and on the ships with it in order to
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We're doing everything we can to support UK manufacturing. Let me say one of the reasons why we're say one of the reasons why we're doing that. As I've said many times, the Ukraine has been a wake up call for US. Manufacturing industry in for US. Manufacturing industry in this country over decades has been allowed to decline in a way which puts our homeland defence at risk. puts our homeland defence at risk. So it's in our own defence industry and our own national interest to grow our defence industries.
So that's why it will be at the heart of what we do. But it's not only what we do here. The government through. And the noble Baroness will have seen that. The carrier strike group out in Indo-Pacific now back into the Mediterranean, there have been numerous there have been numerous roundtables, conferences and industry events on the carrier and on the ships with it in order to
14:55
Baroness Goldie (Conservative)
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Baroness Goldie (Conservative)
on the ships with it in order to promote growth, because one of the ways of doing it is not only what we do here, but to expand the
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growth that we have as well to the rest of the world. Frontbench. My Lords, if we revert to the question asked by the noble Lord Lord Beamish when it comes to MoD procurement within the United Kingdom, there are two certainties. Kingdom, there are two certainties. There is a 2.6 billion black hole in the defence budget, and domestic procurement has virtually dried up. Now, in addition to that, the defence investment plan appears to have evaporated. Can the noble Lord, have evaporated.
Can the noble Lord, the Minister, tell this House what is happening to put this country
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growth that we have as well to the rest of the world. Frontbench. My Lords, if we revert to the question asked by the noble Lord Lord Beamish when it comes to MoD procurement within the United Kingdom, there are two certainties. Kingdom, there are two certainties. There is a 2.6 billion black hole in the defence budget, and domestic procurement has virtually dried up. Now, in addition to that, the defence investment plan appears to have evaporated. Can the noble Lord, have evaporated.
Can the noble Lord, the Minister, tell this House what is happening to put this country
14:55
Lord Coaker, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Labour)
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Lord Coaker, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Labour)
is happening to put this country onto the government's much vaunted phrase war readiness?
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Well, the the first of all, on the specific question of the defence investment plan that will be published this year. So the noble Baroness and the House won't have to wait too long for that. That will lay out the investment decisions that we're going to make. And in the investment plan on the basis of a growing budget, defence basis of a growing budget, defence budget, that defence investment plan will lay out the sorts of capabilities and the sorts of decisions that will need to be made decisions that will need to be made to ensure that we have a war readiness.
We need to learn from what's happened in Ukraine, but
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Well, the the first of all, on the specific question of the defence investment plan that will be published this year. So the noble Baroness and the House won't have to wait too long for that. That will lay out the investment decisions that we're going to make. And in the investment plan on the basis of a growing budget, defence basis of a growing budget, defence budget, that defence investment plan will lay out the sorts of capabilities and the sorts of decisions that will need to be made decisions that will need to be made to ensure that we have a war readiness.
We need to learn from what's happened in Ukraine, but
14:56
Lord Cryer (Labour)
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Lord Cryer (Labour)
what's happened in Ukraine, but also to look at the wars of the future. And the defence investment plan will look to fight that war to
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ensure we're we're ready. My my Lords, my Lords, in the in
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My my Lords, my Lords, in the in the 2 or 3 years after the end of the Cold War, around 150 000 jobs were lost in defence manufacturing. Now everyone's right in hindsight. But now, looking back, that looks extremely short sighted. Isn't extremely short sighted. Isn't there now a need to reverse that process and expand our manufacturing base, at least as far
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ensure we're we're ready. My my Lords, my Lords, in the in
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My my Lords, my Lords, in the in the 2 or 3 years after the end of the Cold War, around 150 000 jobs were lost in defence manufacturing. Now everyone's right in hindsight. But now, looking back, that looks extremely short sighted. Isn't extremely short sighted. Isn't there now a need to reverse that process and expand our manufacturing base, at least as far
14:56
Lord Coaker, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Labour)
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as weapons manufacture is concerned. In this insecure world? Well, my noble friend makes a really good point. And of course, he's right to say that the total number of direct and indirect jobs supported through Mod expenditure with UK industry a couple of years ago was 272,000, which was up from 244,000 the year before. So defence is growing. Is it growing fast enough? We'd all like to see it growing more quickly, but there's no doubt about it that the development of a UK defence industry is crucial to our defence and the defence of our allies.
Lord Coaker, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Labour)
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as weapons manufacture is concerned. In this insecure world? Well, my noble friend makes a really good point. And of course, he's right to say that the total number of direct and indirect jobs supported through Mod expenditure with UK industry a couple of years ago was 272,000, which was up from 244,000 the year before. So defence is growing. Is it growing fast enough? We'd all like to see it growing more quickly, but there's no doubt about it that the development of a UK defence industry is crucial to our defence and the defence of our allies.
14:57
Lord Rogan (Ulster Unionist Party)
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Lord Rogan (Ulster Unionist Party)
Hello my Lords, it's the turn of the crossbenchers next and then I'll come to the conservative benches. Thank you.
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My Lords. You will recall the Prime Minister announcement earlier this Minister announcement earlier this year of 1.6 billion contract for falls in Belfast to supply air defence missiles to Ukraine, creating 200 jobs in Northern Ireland. The deal also included the Ireland. The deal also included the prospect of a further 500 million of additional work to be added in collaboration with the Ukrainian collaboration with the Ukrainian industry partner. Can the Minister provide the House with an update on progress, including how many new jobs have been delivered and whether the extra 200 million of
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whether the extra 200 million of work for Northern Ireland has been secured? Let me say to the the the noble
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Let me say to the the the noble Lord, one of one of the the the key points that the government has pursued is to ensure that the pursued is to ensure that the increase in defence expenditure is felt across the nations and regions. Northern Ireland has secured significant sums of money. Tallis, as he has mentioned, as well as as he has mentioned, as well as other other manufacturing, including small and medium sized businesses. It's a massive success story for Northern Ireland. story for Northern Ireland.
Northern Ireland plays a huge role in the defence and security of our nation. There are huge numbers of nation. There are huge numbers of jobs being being placed there and the huge amount of investment taking place as well.
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My Lords. You will recall the Prime Minister announcement earlier this Minister announcement earlier this year of 1.6 billion contract for falls in Belfast to supply air defence missiles to Ukraine, creating 200 jobs in Northern Ireland. The deal also included the Ireland. The deal also included the prospect of a further 500 million of additional work to be added in collaboration with the Ukrainian collaboration with the Ukrainian industry partner. Can the Minister provide the House with an update on progress, including how many new jobs have been delivered and whether the extra 200 million of
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whether the extra 200 million of work for Northern Ireland has been secured? Let me say to the the the noble
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Let me say to the the the noble Lord, one of one of the the the key points that the government has pursued is to ensure that the pursued is to ensure that the increase in defence expenditure is felt across the nations and regions. Northern Ireland has secured significant sums of money. Tallis, as he has mentioned, as well as as he has mentioned, as well as other other manufacturing, including small and medium sized businesses. It's a massive success story for Northern Ireland. story for Northern Ireland.
Northern Ireland plays a huge role in the defence and security of our nation. There are huge numbers of nation. There are huge numbers of jobs being being placed there and the huge amount of investment taking place as well.
14:58
14:59
Lord Coaker, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Labour)
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Lord Coaker, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Labour)
I think I think it's the noble the noble was asking for. Let me let me answer a couple of questions and I hope it answers the noble Lords point. First of all, the Prime Minister is very supportive of the defence industry of this country and the development of the country and has supported that a great, a great deal. He allows the defence industry and the Mod to carry on with its with its work. But the important point is he's very supportive of that.
As you can see by the increase in the defence budget that we've had and the interest he takes in both defence and foreign affairs. and foreign affairs.
As you can see by the increase in the defence budget that we've had and the interest he takes in both defence and foreign affairs. and foreign affairs.
14:59
Baroness Taylor of Stevenage, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Labour)
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Baroness Taylor of Stevenage, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Labour)
There's no question.
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to ask the question. Standing in my name on the Order Paper. My Lords, we recognise that
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My Lords, we recognise that electoral law is complex and I'm grateful to the noble Lord for his grateful to the noble Lord for his persistence in pushing that point. However, consolidation would take longer than the time available in longer than the time available in this Parliament, so we've set out our strategy for elections, and that represents a way to make real progress. Setting out actions that we will take to simplify, protect and promote our democracy, as detailed in our manifesto, we already have an ambitious agenda to improve our elections, including expanding the franchise and strengthening the rules around
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to ask the question. Standing in my name on the Order Paper. My Lords, we recognise that
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My Lords, we recognise that electoral law is complex and I'm grateful to the noble Lord for his grateful to the noble Lord for his persistence in pushing that point. However, consolidation would take longer than the time available in longer than the time available in this Parliament, so we've set out our strategy for elections, and that represents a way to make real progress. Setting out actions that we will take to simplify, protect and promote our democracy, as detailed in our manifesto, we already have an ambitious agenda to improve our elections, including expanding the franchise and strengthening the rules around
15:00
Lord Pack (Liberal Democrat)
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donations. And we're focusing on delivering that agenda. My Lords, I welcome the clarity
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My Lords, I welcome the clarity of the Minister's answer and the clear commitment to the principle of consolidating election law. And of consolidating election law. And I take the point that it is a time consuming measure, but it is not the very fact that it's a time consuming measure. Why? It is all the more important that the government makes a start on it. Now, rather than putting off starting it. Good point.
Lord Pack (Liberal Democrat)
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donations. And we're focusing on delivering that agenda. My Lords, I welcome the clarity
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My Lords, I welcome the clarity of the Minister's answer and the clear commitment to the principle of consolidating election law. And of consolidating election law. And I take the point that it is a time consuming measure, but it is not the very fact that it's a time consuming measure. Why? It is all the more important that the government makes a start on it. Now, rather than putting off starting it. Good point.
15:00
Baroness Taylor of Stevenage, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Labour)
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Baroness Taylor of Stevenage, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Labour)
I do understand the the impatience that the noble Lord pushes we we are taking forward. We did a recent review of electoral registration conduct to improve the resilience, reduce the risk and support the administrators and the voters alike. And what we're doing now is taking the key priorities from that review and enacting those so that we make sure that our election system is as good as it can be without creating a long delay before we do anything.
My Lord, my.
My Lord, my.
15:01
15:01
Baroness Taylor of Stevenage, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Labour)
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Baroness Taylor of Stevenage, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Labour)
I thank my noble friend for her question. As we set out in July strategy, the government has committed to introducing more automated approaches to electoral registration and we are actively exploring some very innovative approaches to registration, including leveraging some of the public sector data and digital services to boost registration rates and improve the accuracy of electoral registers. Any new registration processes we bring in will, of course, be tested to make sure tested properly, to make sure they work well before we roll them out.
My Lord.
My Lord.
15:02
Baroness Butler-Sloss (Crossbench)
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Baroness Butler-Sloss (Crossbench)
Could I ask for. The Minister.
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To help those. Who don't. Have passports or driving licences, or.
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To help those. Who don't. Have passports or driving licences, or.
15:02
Baroness Taylor of Stevenage, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Labour)
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licences, or. being. Able to vote? I think.
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We are looking very hard at expanding the identification forms that we can use to make sure that that we can use to make sure that nobody is excluded from voting that is entitled to vote, including using bank cards and so on, so that we make sure that we give the widest possible spectrum of ID that people can use to enable them to exercise their vote. My Lords, my Lords, the government has claimed that the local government elections, that the local government elections, local council election should go ahead unless strong justification otherwise.
But when pressed, it otherwise. But when pressed, it admits that local elections may be cancelled next year due to unitary cancelled next year due to unitary restructuring. My Lords, this is creating uncertainty for councils, creating uncertainty for councils, for political parties, but most importantly for local people.
Baroness Taylor of Stevenage, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Labour)
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licences, or. being. Able to vote? I think.
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We are looking very hard at expanding the identification forms that we can use to make sure that that we can use to make sure that nobody is excluded from voting that is entitled to vote, including using bank cards and so on, so that we make sure that we give the widest possible spectrum of ID that people can use to enable them to exercise their vote. My Lords, my Lords, the government has claimed that the local government elections, that the local government elections, local council election should go ahead unless strong justification otherwise.
But when pressed, it otherwise. But when pressed, it admits that local elections may be cancelled next year due to unitary cancelled next year due to unitary restructuring. My Lords, this is creating uncertainty for councils, creating uncertainty for councils, for political parties, but most importantly for local people.
15:03
Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Conservative)
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Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Conservative)
Will the government come clean and publish an open and transparent statement on its intentions for the 2026 local elections? What is actually going ahead and what will be cancelled? Also, does the government agree with the Electoral Commission that elections should not be delayed by more than one year? year?
15:03
15:03
Lord Rennard (Liberal Democrat)
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Lord Rennard (Liberal Democrat)
My Lord, my Lords.
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The People's act. So the Representation of People's Act sought to create a level playing sought to create a level playing field in constituency campaigning, but they no longer do so as a result of the legislation in 2000, which brought in national party limits. These limits were suddenly limits. These limits were suddenly increased by 80% just before the last general election. So will the last general election. So will the forthcoming legislation address the problem that a party contesting problem that a party contesting every constituency could spend £35 million in 70 target seats, i.e.
million in 70 target seats, i.e. half £1 million per constituency, thereby driving a coach and horses
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The People's act. So the Representation of People's Act sought to create a level playing sought to create a level playing field in constituency campaigning, but they no longer do so as a result of the legislation in 2000, which brought in national party limits. These limits were suddenly limits. These limits were suddenly increased by 80% just before the last general election. So will the last general election. So will the forthcoming legislation address the problem that a party contesting problem that a party contesting every constituency could spend £35 million in 70 target seats, i.e.
million in 70 target seats, i.e. half £1 million per constituency, thereby driving a coach and horses
15:04
15:04
The Lord Bishop of Manchester (Bishops)
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The Lord Bishop of Manchester (Bishops)
other political parties, will be invited to comment on the elections bill when it's in draft, and I'm sure they will do so.
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My Lords.
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My Lords, as an enthusiastic volunteer on the lawn of the Lords programme, I strongly applaud the government's plans to reduce. The government's plans to reduce. The voting age from 18 to 16. But I wonder, in preparation for that, what the government can do to to what the government can do to to help teachers in schools prepare young people, and particularly for those teachers to be able to teach
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My Lords.
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My Lords, as an enthusiastic volunteer on the lawn of the Lords programme, I strongly applaud the government's plans to reduce. The government's plans to reduce. The voting age from 18 to 16. But I wonder, in preparation for that, what the government can do to to what the government can do to to help teachers in schools prepare young people, and particularly for those teachers to be able to teach
15:05
Baroness Taylor of Stevenage, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Labour)
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Baroness Taylor of Stevenage, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Labour)
those teachers to be able to teach about politics in a way that doesn't get them in trouble for being seen to perhaps be partisan here.
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I think this is a really, really important point around the expanding of the franchise. As the expanding of the franchise. As the grandmother of a grandson who will be 16 in February, I think I'm very be 16 in February, I think I'm very aware of the fact that we need to make sure that education and engagement are a vital part of engagement are a vital part of implementing the policy, and we do take empowering and equipping young people with the knowledge and people with the knowledge and skills that they will need very seriously.
So the Independent Curriculum and Assessment Reviews report and the government's response have now been published. We really welcome the review's
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I think this is a really, really important point around the expanding of the franchise. As the expanding of the franchise. As the grandmother of a grandson who will be 16 in February, I think I'm very be 16 in February, I think I'm very aware of the fact that we need to make sure that education and engagement are a vital part of engagement are a vital part of implementing the policy, and we do take empowering and equipping young people with the knowledge and people with the knowledge and skills that they will need very seriously.
So the Independent Curriculum and Assessment Reviews report and the government's response have now been published. We really welcome the review's
15:06
Lord Shamash (Labour)
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Lord Shamash (Labour)
recommendations in this respect, and the government is already taking steps to progress the review's agenda.
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My Lords. Some ten years. Ago, if not more. I remember attending the Law Commission where attending the Law Commission where they promised to bring forward a new electoral registration and act, together with a review of the whole of election law. I declare my interest as the solicitor to the interest as the solicitor to the Labour Party in relation to election law. The case for election law. The case for consolidating and modernising election law is strong, very strong because the current system has fragmented, outdated, confusing and increasingly unworkable.
Consolidation and modernisation Consolidation and modernisation itself would bring a single coherent legislative framework for modernising. The rules would make modernising. The rules would make it fit for digital campaigning, which is the world we live in now, whereas election law currently is whereas election law currently is very much paper based consistency across elections. So we would all know whichever election we were know whichever election we were standing in, the rules were more or less the same. It would lower the less the same.
It would lower the administrative burden. And burden and clear offences and enforcement. Could I ask the Minister what steps she will take to ensure the Law Commission brings forward a review,
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My Lords. Some ten years. Ago, if not more. I remember attending the Law Commission where attending the Law Commission where they promised to bring forward a new electoral registration and act, together with a review of the whole of election law. I declare my interest as the solicitor to the interest as the solicitor to the Labour Party in relation to election law. The case for election law. The case for consolidating and modernising election law is strong, very strong because the current system has fragmented, outdated, confusing and increasingly unworkable.
Consolidation and modernisation Consolidation and modernisation itself would bring a single coherent legislative framework for modernising. The rules would make modernising. The rules would make it fit for digital campaigning, which is the world we live in now, whereas election law currently is whereas election law currently is very much paper based consistency across elections. So we would all know whichever election we were know whichever election we were standing in, the rules were more or less the same. It would lower the less the same.
It would lower the administrative burden. And burden and clear offences and enforcement. Could I ask the Minister what steps she will take to ensure the Law Commission brings forward a review,
15:07
Baroness Taylor of Stevenage, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Labour)
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Commission brings forward a review, certainly within the next couple of years or so? Well. As I said, I understand the frustration about this, but the core scope of the review was to make sure that we pick up the main risks and issues related to electoral registration and the conduct of elections. A complete review of the electoral system would be a very complex and long standing procedure, and we wanted to do this on a risk based approach, dealing with the challenges that are faced by the electoral sector, rather than undertaking a whole scale consolidation.
So we've got some pragmatic solutions to address the key issues, and we are taking those forward.
Baroness Taylor of Stevenage, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Labour)
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Commission brings forward a review, certainly within the next couple of years or so? Well. As I said, I understand the frustration about this, but the core scope of the review was to make sure that we pick up the main risks and issues related to electoral registration and the conduct of elections. A complete review of the electoral system would be a very complex and long standing procedure, and we wanted to do this on a risk based approach, dealing with the challenges that are faced by the electoral sector, rather than undertaking a whole scale consolidation.
So we've got some pragmatic solutions to address the key issues, and we are taking those forward.
15:07
Lord Hayward (Conservative)
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Lord Hayward (Conservative)
Lord Hay can I echo Lord Shamash and Lord request for consolidation of election law? It is a complete mess at the moment, but can I pick up on the answer that the Minister gave to Baroness Scott, where she said that it was the intention that all local government elections will go ahead? Is she actually saying, though relevant authorities will have elections, or that it's their intention at the moment, but we will be told in X number of weeks or months time?
15:08
15:08
Lord Sikka (Labour)
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Lord Sikka (Labour)
My Lord, my Lords. are disillusioned with the political system. Political parties are busy selling themselves to the highest bidder. Nearly half of the 18 to 24 year olds are not registered to vote, and turnout at the elections is low, even if people vote. Political parties appease their paymasters first. So my question to the Minister what proposals does the government have to cleanse the political system?
15:09
Baroness Taylor of Stevenage, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Labour)
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Baroness Taylor of Stevenage, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Labour)
Actually, there are a very significant number of young people who have expressed their wish to take part in the political system. And from my point of view, the more the more people we can get engaged in our system. And the education steps that I spoke about earlier to make sure that we do introduce civic, civic education and education around the political process into our system that will help improve trust and confidence in the system. Further to the question.
15:09
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon (Labour)
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Baroness Royall of Blaisdon (Labour)
By my noble friend Baroness Brown about automatic registration and following on from from questions about young people, I wonder if my noble friend could give me the assurance that at least young people voting for the first time aged 16 plus could be automatically registered, because we know that voting is habit forming and we need participation in our democracy in order to give it strength.
15:10
Baroness Taylor of Stevenage, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Labour)
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Baroness Taylor of Stevenage, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Labour)
As I explained, we are doing our best to look at all forms of identification and how that might impact on voter registration. And we want to be as broad minded as we can in that, but also just to expand a little bit, the secondary curriculum will also build on the introduction of civic citizenship at Key Stages one and two, so that we make sure that both that primary age and secondary age pupils are getting an essential grounding in all the topics they need.
And then we, you know, we do need to work on how we make sure that young people are not disenfranchised because of the ID systems that we use for voting. So we are putting our minds to that, and we will be bringing forward new steps in the elections forward new steps in the elections Bill.
And then we, you know, we do need to work on how we make sure that young people are not disenfranchised because of the ID systems that we use for voting. So we are putting our minds to that, and we will be bringing forward new steps in the elections forward new steps in the elections Bill.
15:11
Lord Leong (Labour)
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Lord Leong (Labour)
Leave to ask the question, standing in my name on the Order Paper, and I think the House will understand why it is topical.
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space. Debris as a risk to the critical
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Debris as a risk to the critical national infrastructure due to our reliance on space services, including for communications, including for communications, climate monitoring, navigation and timing. A summary of the National Risk Assessment is set out in the Risk Assessment is set out in the UK's National Risk Register 2025. We invest in space situational We invest in space situational awareness, in-orbit servicing and active debris removal missions and
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space. Debris as a risk to the critical
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Debris as a risk to the critical national infrastructure due to our reliance on space services, including for communications, including for communications, climate monitoring, navigation and timing. A summary of the National Risk Assessment is set out in the Risk Assessment is set out in the UK's National Risk Register 2025. We invest in space situational We invest in space situational awareness, in-orbit servicing and active debris removal missions and
15:11
Viscount Stansgate (Labour)
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Viscount Stansgate (Labour)
active debris removal missions and work with international partners to the European Space Agency and the United Nations to address the risk.
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I thank my noble friend for that answer. Two weeks ago today, the answer. Two weeks ago today, the your Lordships Committee on Engagement with space, of which I was a member, published its report. Act now or lose out and highlighted Act now or lose out and highlighted the issue of space debris. There are tens, if not hundreds of thousands of bits of junk going thousands of bits of junk going around the Earth. This was dramatically illustrated last week when three astronauts were unable to leave the Chinese space station to return to Earth because their spacecraft was hit by space debris.
spacecraft was hit by space debris. Now, satellites are a critical part of our national infrastructure. So of our national infrastructure. So may I ask my noble friend, what strategy the government is adopting to protect our satellites and other to protect our satellites and other elements of critical national infrastructure, and to encourage the UK to play its part in the space economy of the future? And space economy of the future? And will these issues be raised at the forthcoming European Space Agency Ministerial Council next week?
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I thank my noble friend for that answer. Two weeks ago today, the answer. Two weeks ago today, the your Lordships Committee on Engagement with space, of which I was a member, published its report. Act now or lose out and highlighted Act now or lose out and highlighted the issue of space debris. There are tens, if not hundreds of thousands of bits of junk going thousands of bits of junk going around the Earth. This was dramatically illustrated last week when three astronauts were unable to leave the Chinese space station to return to Earth because their spacecraft was hit by space debris.
spacecraft was hit by space debris. Now, satellites are a critical part of our national infrastructure. So of our national infrastructure. So may I ask my noble friend, what strategy the government is adopting to protect our satellites and other to protect our satellites and other elements of critical national infrastructure, and to encourage the UK to play its part in the space economy of the future? And space economy of the future? And will these issues be raised at the forthcoming European Space Agency Ministerial Council next week?
15:12
Lord Leong (Labour)
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Ministerial Council next week? Yeah. My Lords, firstly, may I take this opportunity to thank the UK engagement with Space Committee for all their work that they've done and for the recent publication of the report, as mentioned by my noble friend. My Lords, the government is strengthening UK space surveillance, tightening regulatory standards and investing in debris mitigation technologies. We are committed to global leadership in sustainable space operations and funded debris programmes at the European Space Agency's Council of Ministers in 2022.
My Lords, I will ask my colleague, Minister Lloyd, to raise the issue of space debris at the forthcoming ESA ministerial meeting. The UK's approach on space will balance our national security and growth in expanding global space economy.
Lord Leong (Labour)
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Ministerial Council next week? Yeah. My Lords, firstly, may I take this opportunity to thank the UK engagement with Space Committee for all their work that they've done and for the recent publication of the report, as mentioned by my noble friend. My Lords, the government is strengthening UK space surveillance, tightening regulatory standards and investing in debris mitigation technologies. We are committed to global leadership in sustainable space operations and funded debris programmes at the European Space Agency's Council of Ministers in 2022.
My Lords, I will ask my colleague, Minister Lloyd, to raise the issue of space debris at the forthcoming ESA ministerial meeting. The UK's approach on space will balance our national security and growth in expanding global space economy.
15:13
Lord Clement-Jones (Liberal Democrat)
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Lord Clement-Jones (Liberal Democrat)
I'm glad the. most recent report of the Select Committee. But, my Lords, given what the Minister said about active debris removal and the European Space Agency, what is the government doing to ensure that the cost of end of life, end of life compliance is actually met by commercial satellite operators and not from the public purse? My Lords. not from the public purse? My Lords.
15:14
Lord Leong (Labour)
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Lord Leong (Labour)
The noble Lord makes a very interesting point. My Lord, I look. The government is currently funding innovation in debris mitigation and removal, and it supports the research and development to Yukari and Innovate UK. Of course we do have some private companies like Astroscale and Clearspace and funded trials in orbit servicing. But as far as cleaning the outer or inner in orbit debris itself. Look, space is global and we have to work with our global partners in addressing this issue.
As far as funding is concerned, conversations are ongoing as to who will pay for it. it.
As far as funding is concerned, conversations are ongoing as to who will pay for it. it.
15:14
Lord Cromwell (Crossbench)
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Lord Cromwell (Crossbench)
I suppose I should declare a small interest as having been the progenitor of the Space Committee. But, my Lords, we think of space as infinite. In fact, the usable orbits are a crowd of high speed rubbish. Just a fleck of paint will do damage. Not long ago, a single bolt took out a French satellite. The only satisfaction being was that the bolt had come from another French satellite. But that's another story. Does the noble Lord, the Minister, agree with me that there is a serious economic opportunity here for the United Kingdom to take the lead on the legal and licensing issues in this global space, which is still the Wild West.
And if I could leave noble Lords with an image in their minds, it is full of dangerous shrapnel, and sooner or later an astral astronaut will be killed.
And if I could leave noble Lords with an image in their minds, it is full of dangerous shrapnel, and sooner or later an astral astronaut will be killed.
15:15
Lord Leong (Labour)
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Lord Leong (Labour)
The noble Lord makes a very interesting and a good point there. My Lords, space may be the final frontier, but it is beginning to resemble the final landfill. But if we are to boldly go where no man has gone before, we must first ensure we are not tripping over the debris of those who have already been there. My Lords. The Lord is absolutely right. It's congested up there and I'll just share some statistics with noble Lords. I mean, there are currently something like 12,500 functional satellites with something like 2700 satellites that are not working and defunct, and something like 54,000 debris up to a size of ten centimetres and 1.2 million debris between 1 and 10cm, and something 140 million debris up to 1mm to 1cm.
Yes, we need to clean up and there is actually a economic growth in there and our companies are will get a share of that. that.
Yes, we need to clean up and there is actually a economic growth in there and our companies are will get a share of that. that.
15:16
Baroness Mobarik (Conservative)
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Baroness Mobarik (Conservative)
My Lords, I would argue that having our own sovereign launch capability is one of the most practical tools we could have for monitoring space debris. It gives us the ability to put the right satellites into the right orbits at the right time, without relying on another country's launch schedule or priorities. So can I ask the noble Lord, the Minister, what is the government doing to invest in building spaceports, especially in the north of Scotland? Sutherland not just one, but a cluster to enhance our sovereign launch capability.
15:17
Lord Leong (Labour)
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Lord Leong (Labour)
Thank you. In fact, I mean, we should be very proud of the spaceport in Shetland Islands. And and government is actually investing in that particular project itself. And hopefully we'll be making an announcement soon as to when we can launch a satellite there. But also added to that, I mean, I just want to share with noble Lords that His Majesty the King is also very interested in this area of space, and he's announced the Astro Carter Initiative in June 2023, and he's bringing stakeholders together to look at space and how to create a more sustainable space for everybody.
15:18
Lord Harris of Haringey (Labour)
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Lord Harris of Haringey (Labour)
My Lords, my Lords, my Lords. I refer to my interest as chair of the National Preparedness Commission. Most of our infrastructure relies on signals from space. Timing signals for the finance sector, positioning signals and so on. They can be interfered in with a variety of ways, some of which are space debris, but they are vulnerable to being hacked, to being spoofed all sorts of things. So could the noble Lord, the Minister, tell us what arrangements are being taken to ensure that our critical national infrastructure prepares for the circumstances in which those signals are seriously disrupted for a significant period of time? What is our plan B in the event of that disruption? Thank you.
15:18
Lord Leong (Labour)
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Lord Leong (Labour)
I turn to my noble friend for that point. I mean, look, currently as it stands. I mean, this is playing a major role in developing UK space surveillance. It all covers debris and other satellites as well. And through the Space Clusters and Infrastructure Fund, we are backing new ground based observatories and analytic analytics platforms. They're also coordinating with the UK Space Agency, academia and defence sector to integrate civil and military space surveillance assets into a national capability, thereby reducing dependence on foreign data and supporting strategic.
Autonomy.
Autonomy.
15:19
Lord Markham (Conservative)
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Lord Markham (Conservative)
So I'm going to attempt to boldly follow Lord Clement-Jones line of questioning, and that is around the US building into their their licensing requirements, that the commercial operators actually take this into account. And they have a regulation that there's five years in terms of deorbiting of the low Earth orbiting satellites. We don't do that, and we work on a 25 year basis. Surely it's about time we tried to catch up in this area?
15:20
Lord Leong (Labour)
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Lord Leong (Labour)
Yes. our international partners, whether it's us, whether it's Japan, or whether it's European Space Agency. And currently, I mean, the government is developing a space sustainable standards with commercial space sector investors and insurers as part of our wider regulatory reforms. And we have to bear in mind that reforms have to be outcome based, targeting clarity and certainty. And this is why we are actually attracting a lot of foreign based companies, establishing their operations in UK. The likes that we have mentioned earlier about Astra scale.
15:20
Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (Green Party)
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Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (Green Party)
Following on to.
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The noble Lord Harris's question. We have threats to space infrastructure from hostile actors. infrastructure from hostile actors. Viscount Stansgate identified space debris. There's also a threat from debris. There's also a threat from space weather. And on the 11th and 12th of November, we saw a significant solar storm hitting the Earth. And the National Audit Earth. And the National Audit Office is now looking at doing an inquiry, reporting in spring on that issue. With all of that in that issue.
With all of that in mind, is the government considering whether that we don't necessarily have to digitise every service that have to digitise every service that we provide, every piece of infrastructure, maybe keeping them
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The noble Lord Harris's question. We have threats to space infrastructure from hostile actors. infrastructure from hostile actors. Viscount Stansgate identified space debris. There's also a threat from debris. There's also a threat from space weather. And on the 11th and 12th of November, we saw a significant solar storm hitting the Earth. And the National Audit Earth. And the National Audit Office is now looking at doing an inquiry, reporting in spring on that issue. With all of that in that issue.
With all of that in mind, is the government considering whether that we don't necessarily have to digitise every service that have to digitise every service that we provide, every piece of infrastructure, maybe keeping them
15:21
Lord Leong (Labour)
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infrastructure, maybe keeping them non-digital would be a way to ensure resilience. That's a very interesting
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That's a very interesting position to take. But look, whether we like it or not, we are in the we like it or not, we are in the digital age. I mean, we can't go back to the analogue age because we're in a digital age. We rely on
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satellites, and it's very important we ensure that it's safe up there. My Lords concludes oral
Lord Leong (Labour)
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infrastructure, maybe keeping them non-digital would be a way to ensure resilience. That's a very interesting
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That's a very interesting position to take. But look, whether we like it or not, we are in the we like it or not, we are in the digital age. I mean, we can't go back to the analogue age because we're in a digital age. We rely on
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satellites, and it's very important we ensure that it's safe up there. My Lords concludes oral
15:21
Business of the House
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questions for today. Clerk. A message from the Commons that they have passed the biodiversity they have passed the biodiversity beyond National Jurisdiction Bill to which they desire the agreement
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of your lordships. My Lords. Biodiversity beyond national jurisdiction. Bill, I beg
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national jurisdiction. Bill, I beg to move. This bill is now read a first time. This bill be now read. A first time.
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A first time. As many as of that opinion will say content the contrary not content to contents have it, and content to contents have it, and any members who wish to read the
Business of the House
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questions for today. Clerk. A message from the Commons that they have passed the biodiversity they have passed the biodiversity beyond National Jurisdiction Bill to which they desire the agreement
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of your lordships. My Lords. Biodiversity beyond national jurisdiction. Bill, I beg
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national jurisdiction. Bill, I beg to move. This bill is now read a first time. This bill be now read. A first time.
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A first time. As many as of that opinion will say content the contrary not content to contents have it, and content to contents have it, and any members who wish to read the
15:23
Urgent Question Repeat: Appointments process for the Chair of the Independent Football Regulator
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My My Lords. I think we are there. Questions
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I think we are there. Questions on an answer to an urgent question asked in the House of Commons on Wednesday the 12th of November, on
Urgent Question Repeat: Appointments process for the Chair of the Independent Football Regulator
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My My Lords. I think we are there. Questions
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I think we are there. Questions on an answer to an urgent question asked in the House of Commons on Wednesday the 12th of November, on
15:23
Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Conservative)
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Wednesday the 12th of November, on the independent football regulator. These three breaches of the appointments code aren't just about trust in government. UEFA and trust in government. UEFA and others have made clear that English teams participation in foreign competitions depends on the new regulator's independence. Mr. Cogan certainly appears to be very lucky he didn't originally apply to be chairman. He was allowed to apply after the deadline had passed. He withdrew from the process last November, so was not one of the ten people interviewed or three found Appointable.
He was reinserted in March by the Secretary of State, who, having previously made two donations to her Labour leadership campaign, something she says she doesn't know about. He was given his own interview within six hours. He was her preferred candidate. Subject I quote to number ten giving the green light. A note was sent to the Prime Minister, whose leadership and general election campaigns Mr. Cogan had also donated to, and the Prime Minister gave his approval. He now says he shouldn't have done that when this Urgent Question was taken in another place last week, the Secretary of State said this was not a prime ministerial appointment.
If that's the case, why did she send the Prime Minister a note asking for the green light? And the Prime Minister had agreed with Sir Magnus that he'd play no part in the appointment of the regulator. How can he play a part in exonerating the Secretary of State code?
Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Conservative)
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Wednesday the 12th of November, on the independent football regulator. These three breaches of the appointments code aren't just about trust in government. UEFA and trust in government. UEFA and others have made clear that English teams participation in foreign competitions depends on the new regulator's independence. Mr. Cogan certainly appears to be very lucky he didn't originally apply to be chairman. He was allowed to apply after the deadline had passed. He withdrew from the process last November, so was not one of the ten people interviewed or three found Appointable.
He was reinserted in March by the Secretary of State, who, having previously made two donations to her Labour leadership campaign, something she says she doesn't know about. He was given his own interview within six hours. He was her preferred candidate. Subject I quote to number ten giving the green light. A note was sent to the Prime Minister, whose leadership and general election campaigns Mr. Cogan had also donated to, and the Prime Minister gave his approval. He now says he shouldn't have done that when this Urgent Question was taken in another place last week, the Secretary of State said this was not a prime ministerial appointment.
If that's the case, why did she send the Prime Minister a note asking for the green light? And the Prime Minister had agreed with Sir Magnus that he'd play no part in the appointment of the regulator. How can he play a part in exonerating the Secretary of State code?
15:24
Baroness Twycross, The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Labour)
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Baroness Twycross, The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Labour)
The. questions in in one question, I'm going to do my best to answer the noble Lord. But what I wanted to make very clear in relation to the noble Lords points about UEFA and the success of the independent football regulator, is that the report does not question the suitability of Mr. Cogan as chair of the IFR, and the plight of clubs, including Sheffield Wednesday, shows why the government was right to establish the IFR, which is to put fans back at the heart of the game where they belong.
The noble Lord asked a point around the Prime Minister's replying to a note. The Prime Minister's letter to Solari, Laurie Magnus on this point shows that he knew the decision was for the Secretary of State. He replied on the basis that the decision had been taken. He made clear that it would have been preferable for him to have not been given the note or confirmed. He was content and sincerely regrets this. In the Football Governance Act, it is clear that DCMS Ministers alone make appointments to the board of the IFR.
In practice. In the end, David Cogan was appointed as chair of the IFR, not by the Secretary of State nor the Prime Minister, but the Minister for sport Lord Oates.
The noble Lord asked a point around the Prime Minister's replying to a note. The Prime Minister's letter to Solari, Laurie Magnus on this point shows that he knew the decision was for the Secretary of State. He replied on the basis that the decision had been taken. He made clear that it would have been preferable for him to have not been given the note or confirmed. He was content and sincerely regrets this. In the Football Governance Act, it is clear that DCMS Ministers alone make appointments to the board of the IFR.
In practice. In the end, David Cogan was appointed as chair of the IFR, not by the Secretary of State nor the Prime Minister, but the Minister for sport Lord Oates.
15:26
Lord Addington (Liberal Democrat)
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Lord Addington (Liberal Democrat)
If we are to assume that this is up and not conspiracy, could the Minister give us an assurance of how what process will be happening next time to make sure this doesn't happen again? And also, if we could actually get some definition of what we're looking for in terms of success of an independent football regulator might be helpful for this ongoing situation. ongoing situation.
15:26
Baroness Twycross, The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Labour)
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Baroness Twycross, The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Labour)
The department has reviewed all appointments processes to ensure that this issue does not arise again, and will work with the Cabinet Office and the Commissioner as per the recommendation in the report. In relation to what success for the independent football regulator looks like under David Cogan, I know the IFR will protect clubs, empower fans and keep clubs at the heart of their communities, which is exactly where they belong.
15:26
Lord Birt (Crossbench)
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Lord Birt (Crossbench)
My Lords, whatever.
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The imperfections and the. Manifestly were. Some identified by the
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Some identified by the Commission in the selection process, Mr. Cogan did not apply, but was actually invited to apply for the regulator post when it was first advertised as Lord Parkinson has just reminded us, under the previous conservative government, so does the Minister agree that so does the Minister agree that were the Mr. Cogan had been appointed under a conservative or a Labour government, it would have Labour government, it would have been solely because of his unique ability and expertise, widely
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The imperfections and the. Manifestly were. Some identified by the
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Some identified by the Commission in the selection process, Mr. Cogan did not apply, but was actually invited to apply for the regulator post when it was first advertised as Lord Parkinson has just reminded us, under the previous conservative government, so does the Minister agree that so does the Minister agree that were the Mr. Cogan had been appointed under a conservative or a Labour government, it would have Labour government, it would have been solely because of his unique ability and expertise, widely
15:27
Baroness Twycross, The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Labour)
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ability and expertise, widely admired right across football. There is no doubt in my mind,
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There is no doubt in my mind, and I know in the minds of noble Lords across your Lordships' House, that David Cogan is supremely qualified for the role to which he has now been appointed. He was, as the noble Lord. Highlights approached under the previous government for this role, and is eminently qualified for for the job. government. government.
Baroness Twycross, The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Labour)
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ability and expertise, widely admired right across football. There is no doubt in my mind,
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There is no doubt in my mind, and I know in the minds of noble Lords across your Lordships' House, that David Cogan is supremely qualified for the role to which he has now been appointed. He was, as the noble Lord. Highlights approached under the previous government for this role, and is eminently qualified for for the job. government. government.
15:28
Lord Young of Acton (Conservative)
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Lord Young of Acton (Conservative)
Is introducing. public, even if he or she didn't intend to. Does the noble Lady, the Minister, agree that had the Public Office Accountability Bill been on the statute books, the Prime Minister would now be liable for prosecution for telling his independent ethics adviser he'd recused himself from the appointment of David Cogan, only to appointment. appointment.
15:28
Baroness Twycross, The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Labour)
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Baroness Twycross, The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Labour)
He absolutely not, the Prime Minister replied. As I've said previously, on the basis that this decision had been made, he replied on the basis of that decision to be made, and made it clear that it would have been preferable for him not to been given a note or confirmed he was content and he sincerely regrets this. And as I've previously stated, the Football Governance Act is clear that this is a matter for DCMS Ministers alone.
15:28
Lord Bassam of Brighton (Labour)
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Lord Bassam of Brighton (Labour)
It's a.
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Which they first support. When they were in government, they proposed a regulator, and it was proposed a regulator, and it was proposed by them to ensure that the game became more sustainable. Owners genuinely fit for purpose, and that clubs thrived at the and that clubs thrived at the centre of their communities. There's my noble friend, the Minister agree that if it had not been for the opposition's delaying tactics, we could have had the bill on the statute book earlier, sending a signal to owners and fans sending a signal to owners and fans that the state of the game must be improved.
And does he further agree that the only thing that supporters that the only thing that supporters of clubs like Sheffield Wednesday and Morecambe want to see is the regulator up and running in an
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Which they first support. When they were in government, they proposed a regulator, and it was proposed a regulator, and it was proposed by them to ensure that the game became more sustainable. Owners genuinely fit for purpose, and that clubs thrived at the and that clubs thrived at the centre of their communities. There's my noble friend, the Minister agree that if it had not been for the opposition's delaying tactics, we could have had the bill on the statute book earlier, sending a signal to owners and fans sending a signal to owners and fans that the state of the game must be improved.
And does he further agree that the only thing that supporters that the only thing that supporters of clubs like Sheffield Wednesday and Morecambe want to see is the regulator up and running in an
15:29
Baroness Twycross, The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Labour)
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Baroness Twycross, The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Labour)
regulator up and running in an effective and protecting the interests of fans, footballers and supporters at large.
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Yeah. I couldn't, I couldn't agree more with my noble friend and it's more with my noble friend and it's clearly my noble friend. Highlights a number of clubs that have gone through an incredibly difficult time. We're pleased now that we have actually made it through all have actually made it through all the parliamentary hurdles. At one point, it felt like it was never point, it felt like it was never going to get there, but I think for players and fans and for clubs across the country, I'm absolutely across the country, I'm absolutely delighted that the regulator is going to bring rigour and new financial regulation, which should financial regulation, which should improve the financial resilience of clubs across the football pyramid so that no owner can jeopardise so that no owner can jeopardise clubs futures.
And I think we can all be pleased that we have finally
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Yeah. I couldn't, I couldn't agree more with my noble friend and it's more with my noble friend and it's clearly my noble friend. Highlights a number of clubs that have gone through an incredibly difficult time. We're pleased now that we have actually made it through all have actually made it through all the parliamentary hurdles. At one point, it felt like it was never point, it felt like it was never going to get there, but I think for players and fans and for clubs across the country, I'm absolutely across the country, I'm absolutely delighted that the regulator is going to bring rigour and new financial regulation, which should financial regulation, which should improve the financial resilience of clubs across the football pyramid so that no owner can jeopardise so that no owner can jeopardise clubs futures.
And I think we can all be pleased that we have finally
15:30
Lord Pannick (Crossbench)
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all be pleased that we have finally got there. It is regrettable that it took so long. Does the.
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Minister agree. That in the light. Of the. Manifest suitability of Mr. Kogan to perform this important job, given, as Lord Birt said, his unique expertise and experience, it is unfortunate that this synthetic dispute should seek to undermine the important responsibilities that he is performing. he is performing.
Lord Pannick (Crossbench)
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all be pleased that we have finally got there. It is regrettable that it took so long. Does the.
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Minister agree. That in the light. Of the. Manifest suitability of Mr. Kogan to perform this important job, given, as Lord Birt said, his unique expertise and experience, it is unfortunate that this synthetic dispute should seek to undermine the important responsibilities that he is performing. he is performing.
15:30
Baroness Twycross, The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Labour)
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Baroness Twycross, The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Labour)
I'm pleased that despite the potential distractions that has taken place around the process, there is pretty much universal support for David Kogan and for the incredible range of skills and experience he brings to this role. What I would say, though, is that the Secretary of State was clear that she will own up when she gets things wrong and that this government will, as she said, when we make mistakes and we will make mistakes, we're human beings. We put ourselves through those independent processes that are there for the reason that we expect the outcome, and we will take the consequences.
15:31
Baroness Twycross, The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Labour)
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Baroness Twycross, The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Labour)
that the regulator is in post, that are you assuring us that there will never be another debacle like the one we've seen at Sheffield
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Wednesday? I would. Love to say that there will
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Love to say that there will never be a debacle like we've seen at Sheffield Wednesday, and it's clearly been a very difficult time for the club, its players and its for the club, its players and its fans and no doubt for the noble Lord. The reason we have established the independent established the independent football regulator, following the incredible work by the former sports Minister Tracey Crouch on sports Minister Tracey Crouch on her fan led review, is to make sure that we introduce much stronger that we introduce much stronger financial regulation which will improve the financial resilience of clubs across the country and across clubs across the country and across the football pyramid.
We're really keen that fans are at the heart of
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Wednesday? I would. Love to say that there will
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Love to say that there will never be a debacle like we've seen at Sheffield Wednesday, and it's clearly been a very difficult time for the club, its players and its for the club, its players and its fans and no doubt for the noble Lord. The reason we have established the independent established the independent football regulator, following the incredible work by the former sports Minister Tracey Crouch on sports Minister Tracey Crouch on her fan led review, is to make sure that we introduce much stronger that we introduce much stronger financial regulation which will improve the financial resilience of clubs across the country and across clubs across the country and across the football pyramid.
We're really keen that fans are at the heart of
15:32
Lord Polak (Conservative)
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keen that fans are at the heart of football going forward, where they rightly belong. I take issue.
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I take issue. With the noble Lord Lord Pannick. There's nothing synthetic. About the fact. That the Prime Minister has had
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That the Prime Minister has had to apologise for something he said he didn't do, and, and that is the, he didn't do, and, and that is the, the, the issue. So I think at least should happen that the word independent is taken away from the title independent football regulator because there's nothing independent about it.
Lord Polak (Conservative)
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keen that fans are at the heart of football going forward, where they rightly belong. I take issue.
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I take issue. With the noble Lord Lord Pannick. There's nothing synthetic. About the fact. That the Prime Minister has had
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That the Prime Minister has had to apologise for something he said he didn't do, and, and that is the, he didn't do, and, and that is the, the, the issue. So I think at least should happen that the word independent is taken away from the title independent football regulator because there's nothing independent about it.
15:33
Baroness Twycross, The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Labour)
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Baroness Twycross, The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Labour)
Yeah.
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I simply think that the noble Lord, with whom I have huge respect and quite regularly agree with points he makes in this house, I just simply can't agree with the
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just simply can't agree with the point the noble Lord raises. Yeah, I. Was going to slip in for the
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Was going to slip in for the last two seconds there, but no. Do we need to take a moment or two just to clear the benches for for just to clear the benches for for
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I simply think that the noble Lord, with whom I have huge respect and quite regularly agree with points he makes in this house, I just simply can't agree with the
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just simply can't agree with the point the noble Lord raises. Yeah, I. Was going to slip in for the
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Was going to slip in for the last two seconds there, but no. Do we need to take a moment or two just to clear the benches for for just to clear the benches for for
15:34
Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Conservative)
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Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Conservative)
My Lords.
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Two weeks ago, the Chancellor held an unprecedented press held an unprecedented press conference in Downing Street. As a result, everyone believed that income tax rates would be increased income tax rates would be increased in the budget. However, last Friday, the Financial Times, obviously the Financial Times, obviously briefed by Downing Street, said that this plan had been scrapped, that this plan had been scrapped, leading to an instant increase in bond rates and debt servicing costs. bond rates and debt servicing costs.
My Lords, has the Treasury launched an investigation into the source of an investigation into the source of this and related leaks? And if not, why not? Or is it that the source why not? Or is it that the source of such leaks is all too obvious?
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Two weeks ago, the Chancellor held an unprecedented press held an unprecedented press conference in Downing Street. As a result, everyone believed that income tax rates would be increased income tax rates would be increased in the budget. However, last Friday, the Financial Times, obviously the Financial Times, obviously briefed by Downing Street, said that this plan had been scrapped, that this plan had been scrapped, leading to an instant increase in bond rates and debt servicing costs. bond rates and debt servicing costs.
My Lords, has the Treasury launched an investigation into the source of an investigation into the source of this and related leaks? And if not, why not? Or is it that the source why not? Or is it that the source of such leaks is all too obvious?
15:35
Lord Livermore, The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Labour)
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The noble Lords, political friends? Well, I'm grateful to the noble
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Well, I'm grateful to the noble Lady for her question. She claims that. It's unprecedented.
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For a Chancellor to comment on the economic situation ahead of a budget. I do not think in any way budget. I do not think in any way that that is unusual. There is always speculation ahead of a budget, and as she knows, I'm not going to speculate on the next budget now or comment on any individual tax measures. So nor am I going to comment on the ongoing budget process. The Chancellor has asked the OBR to produce a new forecast, the OBR and the Treasury exchange information throughout the forecast process, which is usual practice and has been established over many years.
The Chancellor will then take decisions based on that forecast and will set out our fiscal plans in the budget. She has been very, very clear that the budget will protect the NHS, reduce the cost of living and reduce the national debt. We will continue to rebuild the economy after 14 years of failure from the party opposite.
Lord Livermore, The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Labour)
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The noble Lords, political friends? Well, I'm grateful to the noble
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Well, I'm grateful to the noble Lady for her question. She claims that. It's unprecedented.
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For a Chancellor to comment on the economic situation ahead of a budget. I do not think in any way budget. I do not think in any way that that is unusual. There is always speculation ahead of a budget, and as she knows, I'm not going to speculate on the next budget now or comment on any individual tax measures. So nor am I going to comment on the ongoing budget process. The Chancellor has asked the OBR to produce a new forecast, the OBR and the Treasury exchange information throughout the forecast process, which is usual practice and has been established over many years.
The Chancellor will then take decisions based on that forecast and will set out our fiscal plans in the budget. She has been very, very clear that the budget will protect the NHS, reduce the cost of living and reduce the national debt. We will continue to rebuild the economy after 14 years of failure from the party opposite.
15:35
Baroness Kramer (Liberal Democrat)
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Baroness Kramer (Liberal Democrat)
Yeah.
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Back down again. And does the Minister recognise that sort of kite flying is really that sort of kite flying is really undermining confidence. That in the comments that anybody makes now comments that anybody makes now third from the Treasury benches, that would he accept that bond yields though they steadied a few days after flurrying that with the sort of flip flop and change in sort of flip flop and change in policy that but we still find ourselves paying over the odds for issuing gilts largely because markets are so uncertain about the direction of public finances.
direction of public finances. Steadying and calming surely ought to be the order of the day.
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Back down again. And does the Minister recognise that sort of kite flying is really that sort of kite flying is really undermining confidence. That in the comments that anybody makes now comments that anybody makes now third from the Treasury benches, that would he accept that bond yields though they steadied a few days after flurrying that with the sort of flip flop and change in sort of flip flop and change in policy that but we still find ourselves paying over the odds for issuing gilts largely because markets are so uncertain about the direction of public finances.
direction of public finances. Steadying and calming surely ought to be the order of the day.
15:36
Lord Livermore, The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Labour)
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to be the order of the day. Well, the noble Lady says that comments from Treasury benches create uncertainty and then invites create uncertainty and then invites me to comment. So I shan't be doing that. I shan't be commenting on bond yields as she asked me to do as she knows I never do. I'm not going to comment on the ongoing budget process. I'm not going to comment on speculation on individual tax measures.
Lord Livermore, The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Labour)
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to be the order of the day. Well, the noble Lady says that comments from Treasury benches create uncertainty and then invites create uncertainty and then invites me to comment. So I shan't be doing that. I shan't be commenting on bond yields as she asked me to do as she knows I never do. I'm not going to comment on the ongoing budget process. I'm not going to comment on speculation on individual tax measures.
15:36
Lord Harper (Conservative)
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Lord Harper (Conservative)
The Minister. of Commons. This comment. Was driven by, firstly, the Chancellor's speech, which wasn't about economic policy, it was specifically about the budget and then the interview that she did on Matt Chorley's programme, specifically around the budget. So this information has been put into the public domain by Ministers. It's had real world economic effects and it should stop.
15:37
Lord Livermore, The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Labour)
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Lord Livermore, The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Labour)
Yeah.
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Well, with the greatest respect to the noble Lord, I'm not sure it's for him to say what is and it's for him to say what is and isn't good enough. I think he expresses shock. He expresses he expresses shock and horror that the Chancellor should comment on the Chancellor should comment on the budget. I really think that is somewhat overdone. It's perfectly in order for the Chancellor to comment on the budget before, comment on the budget before, during and after the budget.
As I say, I'm not going to comment on the ongoing budget process.
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Well, with the greatest respect to the noble Lord, I'm not sure it's for him to say what is and it's for him to say what is and isn't good enough. I think he expresses shock. He expresses he expresses shock and horror that the Chancellor should comment on the Chancellor should comment on the budget. I really think that is somewhat overdone. It's perfectly in order for the Chancellor to comment on the budget before, comment on the budget before, during and after the budget.
As I say, I'm not going to comment on the ongoing budget process.
15:38
Lord Moore of Etchingham (Non-affiliated)
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the ongoing budget process. Speaking. My Lords, may I ask a question to the noble Lord Minister? And I'm speaking in a way as a journalist because I want to wonder then we print the contradictions to those stories which the government has also kindly given us. And it seems to me of great benefit to our headlines, but very little benefit to the country. And I wonder if the noble Lord, the Minister, is planning to bring a return to purdah.
Lord Moore of Etchingham (Non-affiliated)
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the ongoing budget process. Speaking. My Lords, may I ask a question to the noble Lord Minister? And I'm speaking in a way as a journalist because I want to wonder then we print the contradictions to those stories which the government has also kindly given us. And it seems to me of great benefit to our headlines, but very little benefit to the country. And I wonder if the noble Lord, the Minister, is planning to bring a return to purdah.
15:38
Lord Livermore, The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Labour)
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Lord Livermore, The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Labour)
Well, the noble Lord is far more experienced in these matters than I am, but he will know very well that there is always speculation ahead of a budget. I don't think there is anything unusual about that. I'm slightly unclear whether I'm being told that speculation is wrong, or whether I'm being invited to speculate, as I'm has been very clear, I'm not going to comment on the budget process. I'm not going to comment on speculation ahead of the budget on any individual tax measures.
15:39
The Lord Bishop of Hereford (Bishops)
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The Lord Bishop of Hereford (Bishops)
So is the Minister. markets been affected by this speculation, but people have made life changing financial decisions, in part fuelled by speculation rooted in private government press briefings. These decisions may prove to be unwise when the actual decisions are revealed. Has the government considered other, less damaging means of gauging public opinion than fishing through the media?
15:39
Lord Livermore, The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Labour)
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Lord Livermore, The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Labour)
Well, the right reverend Prelate says that these are. The government is the source for these speculation when he has no such evidence for that. I'm not going to comment, as I say, on the ongoing budget process, and I'm not going to comment on the speculation. That is perfectly usual ahead of a budget.
15:39
Lord Watts (Labour)
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Lord Watts (Labour)
This side, this side, this side, my Lords, it's this side. My Lords. Is the Minister surprised at the criticism that has come from the opposition benches about leaks, when in the past they've been leaked as, as widely as any previous government and this government? And is he surprised them to hear the criticism about the impact on the bond markets after we had one of the worst times financially when the mismanagement by the previous government caused a crash in the market?
15:40
15:40
15:41
Lord Scriven (Liberal Democrat)
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Does the. Lib Dem, my Lords, does the. Minister agree? Does the noble or the.
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Minister agree with his colleague, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, when she was the Shadow Chancellor, when she said teasing of major policy shifts can create market uncertainty and should be avoided?
Lord Scriven (Liberal Democrat)
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Does the. Lib Dem, my Lords, does the. Minister agree? Does the noble or the.
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Minister agree with his colleague, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, when she was the Shadow Chancellor, when she said teasing of major policy shifts can create market uncertainty and should be avoided?
15:41
15:41
The Earl of Effingham (Conservative)
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The Earl of Effingham (Conservative)
The Minister of Justice.
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Is the yield on the 30 year. UK government. Bond higher.
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Is the yield on the 30 year. UK government. Bond higher.
15:42
Lord Livermore, The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Labour)
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UK government. Bond higher. Now than it was in October 2022? The noble Lord knows full well that I will not be commenting on
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that I will not be commenting on movements of the bond market. The noble Lord, the Minister, to comment on bond markets or to
Lord Livermore, The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Labour)
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UK government. Bond higher. Now than it was in October 2022? The noble Lord knows full well that I will not be commenting on
**** Possible New Speaker ****
that I will not be commenting on movements of the bond market. The noble Lord, the Minister, to comment on bond markets or to
15:42
15:42
15:42
15:43
15:43
Baroness Foster of Oxton (Conservative)
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already, I'm not going to comment on the ongoing budget process. Following the Chancellor's.
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Following the Chancellor's. Climbdown on increasing income tax, £27 billion was. Wiped off the FTSE.
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100 on Friday. Does the noble Lord, the Minister, think that that was helpful?
Baroness Foster of Oxton (Conservative)
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already, I'm not going to comment on the ongoing budget process. Following the Chancellor's.
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Following the Chancellor's. Climbdown on increasing income tax, £27 billion was. Wiped off the FTSE.
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100 on Friday. Does the noble Lord, the Minister, think that that was helpful?
15:43
15:43
Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-affiliated)
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Yeah. That's right. No one was speculating until the Chancellor raised income tax. Does the noble Lord take the public for fools by thinking that there is nothing to see here, when we can all see that there is nothing to see here? And secondly, if any of the public are looking in on this questions after the last two questions, does the Minister think that this behaviour is likely to engender trust in politicians or undermine it?
Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-affiliated)
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Yeah. That's right. No one was speculating until the Chancellor raised income tax. Does the noble Lord take the public for fools by thinking that there is nothing to see here, when we can all see that there is nothing to see here? And secondly, if any of the public are looking in on this questions after the last two questions, does the Minister think that this behaviour is likely to engender trust in politicians or undermine it?
15:43
Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (Green Party)
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Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (Green Party)
DESNZ Lords Minister understand.
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That he has to answer questions and not just put them away.
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That he has to answer questions and not just put them away.
15:44
15:44
15:44
Lord Geddes (Conservative)
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Will be quite a long and exhaustive list. The things I'm not prepared to comment on right now are individual tax measures, speculation ahead of the budget or
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speculation ahead of the budget or the ongoing budget process. Going back to two previous. Questions. My noble friend behind me asked
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My noble friend behind me asked whether the noble Lord would comment on something that he had said nothing to do with the budget,
Lord Geddes (Conservative)
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Will be quite a long and exhaustive list. The things I'm not prepared to comment on right now are individual tax measures, speculation ahead of the budget or
**** Possible New Speaker ****
speculation ahead of the budget or the ongoing budget process. Going back to two previous. Questions. My noble friend behind me asked
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My noble friend behind me asked whether the noble Lord would comment on something that he had said nothing to do with the budget,
15:44
15:44
-
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measures. Something I said I'm not going to comment on. My Lords, I'm afraid the time
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measures. Something I said I'm not going to comment on. My Lords, I'm afraid the time
15:45
Lord Hanson of Flint, The Minister of State, Home Department (Labour)
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My Lords. I'm bound to say. I'm I remain confused as to the true purpose of the statement. The government the statement. The government announced a police reform white paper last year, but this has not yet materialised. We now see the government announcing the abolition of Police and crime commissioners. So I do ask why the government made this particular announcement now, ahead of the publication of the full details of their plans for police reform and more importantly, why is the Home Office fiddling about with PCCs rather than taking real action to reduce crime? Turning to the contents of the statement, the two main arguments deployed to support the abolition of Police and Crime commissioners.
The first is that the PCC model has led to the politicisation of the police, but the proposals in this statement are for oversight of police forces to be moved to the directly elected strategic mayors, or to local councils. Directly elected mayors are party political councillors, a party political. So the government's solution to the problem of the politicisation of the police is to move control from one elected politician to another elected politician. My argument is completely nonsensical. There is no world in which this policy leads to a decreased politicisation of the police.
And the other argument the government has forwarded is on accountability. The Minister, in her statement to the Other place, said that the PCC model has weakened local police accountability, but there is no evidence for that assertion. Nor did the the Home Secretary explain how the government's new model would rectify that. We know that where there will not be an elected mayor, the functions of oversight will be undertaken by policing and crime boards. So how will transferring the functions of PCCs to boards of councillors and bureaucrats increase accountability? Further to that point, the Minister said we have seen the benefits of the mayoral model, including greater collaboration, visible leadership and local innovation.
And yet here in London, under Sadiq Khan, knife crime is up 86%, closing five police front counters altogether and removing 24 seven station front counter from every borough. And the total crime rate has increased from 89.3 per 1000 people when he took office, to 106.4 per 1000 people for 2425. I would hardly call that a success story, I Lord Oates. The simple fact is that policing is not overly complicated to get right. It requires common sense, good leadership, and practical training.
We cannot pretend that everything is rosy, but embarking on some crusade to police reform will simply distract us from the real task at hand. The Home Office needs to focus on boosting police numbers, keeping front counters open, stopping officers from policing tweets and cutting crime. The British people feel the crime and disorder is certainly on the rise. So does the government seriously think that these changes will have a material impact on the daily lives of the British people? I look forward to what the noble Lord Minister has to say.
Lord Hanson of Flint, The Minister of State, Home Department (Labour)
**** Possible New Speaker ****
My Lords. I'm bound to say. I'm I remain confused as to the true purpose of the statement. The government the statement. The government announced a police reform white paper last year, but this has not yet materialised. We now see the government announcing the abolition of Police and crime commissioners. So I do ask why the government made this particular announcement now, ahead of the publication of the full details of their plans for police reform and more importantly, why is the Home Office fiddling about with PCCs rather than taking real action to reduce crime? Turning to the contents of the statement, the two main arguments deployed to support the abolition of Police and Crime commissioners.
The first is that the PCC model has led to the politicisation of the police, but the proposals in this statement are for oversight of police forces to be moved to the directly elected strategic mayors, or to local councils. Directly elected mayors are party political councillors, a party political. So the government's solution to the problem of the politicisation of the police is to move control from one elected politician to another elected politician. My argument is completely nonsensical. There is no world in which this policy leads to a decreased politicisation of the police.
And the other argument the government has forwarded is on accountability. The Minister, in her statement to the Other place, said that the PCC model has weakened local police accountability, but there is no evidence for that assertion. Nor did the the Home Secretary explain how the government's new model would rectify that. We know that where there will not be an elected mayor, the functions of oversight will be undertaken by policing and crime boards. So how will transferring the functions of PCCs to boards of councillors and bureaucrats increase accountability? Further to that point, the Minister said we have seen the benefits of the mayoral model, including greater collaboration, visible leadership and local innovation.
And yet here in London, under Sadiq Khan, knife crime is up 86%, closing five police front counters altogether and removing 24 seven station front counter from every borough. And the total crime rate has increased from 89.3 per 1000 people when he took office, to 106.4 per 1000 people for 2425. I would hardly call that a success story, I Lord Oates. The simple fact is that policing is not overly complicated to get right. It requires common sense, good leadership, and practical training.
We cannot pretend that everything is rosy, but embarking on some crusade to police reform will simply distract us from the real task at hand. The Home Office needs to focus on boosting police numbers, keeping front counters open, stopping officers from policing tweets and cutting crime. The British people feel the crime and disorder is certainly on the rise. So does the government seriously think that these changes will have a material impact on the daily lives of the British people? I look forward to what the noble Lord Minister has to say.
15:49
Baroness Doocey (Liberal Democrat)
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Baroness Doocey (Liberal Democrat)
Yes.
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My Lords Police and Crime. Commissioners were an innovative idea, but experience has shown idea, but experience has shown they've not delivered as intended. Instead, they've proved to be a costly and flawed experiment.
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costly and flawed experiment. So we welcome their abolition. However, I hope the. Minister will be able. To provide the House with rather
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more clarity. On what will replace them. We don't believe transferring.
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PCC powers to mayors is the answer, as this would concentrate even more power in single individuals with too little scrutiny or accountability. The proposal for a police and crime lead, described as akin to a deputy mayor for policing and crime, risks mayor for policing and crime, risks being a rebadged PCC unless the being a rebadged PCC unless the legislation is crystal clear. This role could again become a focal point for political leverage over point for political leverage over chief constables.
It must be made abundantly clear that chief abundantly clear that chief constables retain full operational independence, and that these new leads and boards will not have higher and higher powers. If not, we risk repeating the mistakes of the PCC model, drawing policing further into politics rather than strengthening impartial policing by consent the government sets, these boards will not be returned to the invisible committees of the past. But this assurance needs substance. How will they work and how will their work be accessible and visible to the public? The former Metropolitan Police Authority may offer some useful lessons, having served on that body for seven years, I can attest that no one could describe it as invisible.
Its meetings were in public, widely reported, and its scrutiny of senior police officers was robust. Will the Home Office carefully consider what worked in that model before finalising these new arrangements? I was particularly disappointed to learn from the Minister's statement in the House of Commons that the 100 million which could be saved in this Parliament by the abolition of PCC elections, will go to the Treasury rather than to frontline policing and overstretched police service, will find that a very difficult pill to swallow.
The Home Office says reforms to police governance will save at least £20 million a year, enough to fund 320 extra police constables. Can the Minister give a clear undertaking that this money will definitely be spent on recruiting those 320 extra police officers? Because saying something can happen is very different to saying something will happen? Finally, my Lords, rebuilding public trust in police goes far beyond governance. True accountability demands transparency. Will the government require police forces to publish data on officers under investigation for sexual or domestic abuse? And will it now act to bring police record keeping in England and Wales into line with Scotland and Northern Ireland, ending the discretionary destruction of police records as recommended by the Hillsborough Independent Panel.
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My Lords Police and Crime. Commissioners were an innovative idea, but experience has shown idea, but experience has shown they've not delivered as intended. Instead, they've proved to be a costly and flawed experiment.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
costly and flawed experiment. So we welcome their abolition. However, I hope the. Minister will be able. To provide the House with rather
**** Possible New Speaker ****
more clarity. On what will replace them. We don't believe transferring.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
PCC powers to mayors is the answer, as this would concentrate even more power in single individuals with too little scrutiny or accountability. The proposal for a police and crime lead, described as akin to a deputy mayor for policing and crime, risks mayor for policing and crime, risks being a rebadged PCC unless the being a rebadged PCC unless the legislation is crystal clear. This role could again become a focal point for political leverage over point for political leverage over chief constables.
It must be made abundantly clear that chief abundantly clear that chief constables retain full operational independence, and that these new leads and boards will not have higher and higher powers. If not, we risk repeating the mistakes of the PCC model, drawing policing further into politics rather than strengthening impartial policing by consent the government sets, these boards will not be returned to the invisible committees of the past. But this assurance needs substance. How will they work and how will their work be accessible and visible to the public? The former Metropolitan Police Authority may offer some useful lessons, having served on that body for seven years, I can attest that no one could describe it as invisible.
Its meetings were in public, widely reported, and its scrutiny of senior police officers was robust. Will the Home Office carefully consider what worked in that model before finalising these new arrangements? I was particularly disappointed to learn from the Minister's statement in the House of Commons that the 100 million which could be saved in this Parliament by the abolition of PCC elections, will go to the Treasury rather than to frontline policing and overstretched police service, will find that a very difficult pill to swallow.
The Home Office says reforms to police governance will save at least £20 million a year, enough to fund 320 extra police constables. Can the Minister give a clear undertaking that this money will definitely be spent on recruiting those 320 extra police officers? Because saying something can happen is very different to saying something will happen? Finally, my Lords, rebuilding public trust in police goes far beyond governance. True accountability demands transparency. Will the government require police forces to publish data on officers under investigation for sexual or domestic abuse? And will it now act to bring police record keeping in England and Wales into line with Scotland and Northern Ireland, ending the discretionary destruction of police records as recommended by the Hillsborough Independent Panel.
15:52
Lord Hanson of Flint, The Minister of State, Home Department (Labour)
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Lord Hanson of Flint, The Minister of State, Home Department (Labour)
Yes.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Opportunity to outline the government's plans with regard to government's plans with regard to police and crime commissioners. And I hope in doing so, I can answer the questions that have been raised the questions that have been raised by the noble Lady and by the noble Lord Davies of Gower. First of all, Lord Davies of Gower. First of all, let me just make a starting statement that we do anticipate doing this for efficiency reasons. doing this for efficiency reasons. There is a potential £100 million saving, as the noble Lady mentioned, 87 million of that 100 million is 87 million of that 100 million is the cancellation of elections.
They're currently funded centrally, which is why the resource goes to which is why the resource goes to the Treasury. But there's around a £20.3 million saving over the course £20.3 million saving over the course of the rest of this Parliament, which will be put into front line policing and which will fund around policing and which will fund around 320 additional officers, which is part of the 13,000 officers that part of the 13,000 officers that we're intending to put on the ground, either Especiales, PCC or as warranted officers over the as warranted officers over the course of this Parliament, of which 3000 have already been in place to 3000 have already been in place to date.
Now, in answer to the noble Lord Purvis question, there is a patchwork currently of patchwork currently of responsibilities for policing five existing mayors in London, Greater Manchester, West Yorkshire, South Yorkshire and North Yorkshire have policing powers. There are existing mayors in Merseyside, Derby, West Midlands and the West Country who don't have policing powers. There are new mayors coming on stream in Norfolk and Suffolk, Essex, Sussex, Cumbria, Hampshire and potentially in Cheshire and Lancashire who don't currently have policing powers. And there are other areas such as Humberside where there is, and Lincolnshire where there are police and crime commissioners, which overlap with mayors who have been elected directly on their areas.
That's a that's a really big patchwork. And what we're trying to do is to get as far as possible for the mayoral model to have the accountability for policing, as is the case in the five to date, where there is usually. But it's up to the mayor, a deputy mayor who's appointed to be responsible as the lead person for those statements. Now, I think that's a helpful thing to do. He's asked why we brought it forward now. We thought it was useful to give as much notice as possible that the cancellation of the elections would happen in 2028.
He's asked about the police and white paper. I can give him an assurance that police white paper will be produced before Christmas of this year, and will therefore be before both Houses of Parliament before Christmas of this year. But it is important that we give as much notice as possible once the decision has been taken, and we wanted to ensure that police and crime commissioners had an opportunity to reflect upon that. I think the noble Lord has mentioned, well, how does this help crime? Well, I think it gives a focus.
It gives a direction, it gives greater efficiency. But equally, it's not to be seen in a in a isolation we're dealing with, as he knows, every week, day, almost every day of this week, the police and crime bill, we've got 13,000 extra officers in place. We've got additional initiatives on shop theft. We've got a whole range of other proposals on anti-social behaviour, on knife crime, which are helping to deal with crime. He mentions London. London has the lowest murder rate this year, very high, still at 93 people being killed.
I'm not denying that, but it's the lowest rate for for many years and there is a push on trying to reduce crime across the board, which this will be part. Now, in answer to the noble Baroness Doocey, operational independence is absolutely critical. And that's one of the reasons, again, that we're trying to move away from this model, because there is still a temptation for police and crime commissioners to want to be the chief constable, as well as the police and crime budget setting individual.
And that operational independence, independence of political interference is absolutely vital. The police and crime boards that we're going to establish in areas where there's not a mayor will potentially have the same role with lots of senior councillors from an area being able to hold the chief constable to account and to set a budget, and that potentially the London model is is very appropriate for that because there is an opportunity for the lead councillors in an area, usually potentially the leaders of the local councils, to hold the Chief constable to account and to set a budget and to do so because remember, again, in local council areas, the budget settlement is a precept and the police precept is usually included in the rates bill, and the rates bill is held to account by the leader of the council, usually, and leaders of the council.
So I think there's there's scope there as a whole. I welcome the baroness's welcome for the abolition, and I hope that she'll work with us and we publish legislation as we have to, to implement this measure at some point in the future, that she will have the support and the ability to test those issues at this time. But I would say to all noble Lords that the first election had a turnout of 15%. The second election was slightly higher.
The third election was down on the second election of 24%. There's not necessarily an awareness, and I think anybody who lives in Greater Manchester knows who Andy Burnham is. Everybody who lives in my neck of the woods in Merseyside knows who. Steve Rotherham is. Now, look, I'm lucky know I'm lucky, I'm lucky. I'm being distracted by the noble Lord Swire who's a anxious to bounce. We have 20 minutes in this first part for the noble Lord Swire. He should know that by now.
He's bouncing away, trying to get in, but I. I will give him opportunity. I still have potentially up to eight minutes before this, 20 minutes for the House to answer questions. So everybody does know who Steve Rotherham is in the area. And he did put me off for the crucial moment there, but I forgive him for that and we'll continue. I would just say to the house generally this is a deficiency measure. It will focus policing, it will help support the government's crime mission and Safer streets mission.
And I commend it to the House.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Opportunity to outline the government's plans with regard to government's plans with regard to police and crime commissioners. And I hope in doing so, I can answer the questions that have been raised the questions that have been raised by the noble Lady and by the noble Lord Davies of Gower. First of all, Lord Davies of Gower. First of all, let me just make a starting statement that we do anticipate doing this for efficiency reasons. doing this for efficiency reasons. There is a potential £100 million saving, as the noble Lady mentioned, 87 million of that 100 million is 87 million of that 100 million is the cancellation of elections.
They're currently funded centrally, which is why the resource goes to which is why the resource goes to the Treasury. But there's around a £20.3 million saving over the course £20.3 million saving over the course of the rest of this Parliament, which will be put into front line policing and which will fund around policing and which will fund around 320 additional officers, which is part of the 13,000 officers that part of the 13,000 officers that we're intending to put on the ground, either Especiales, PCC or as warranted officers over the as warranted officers over the course of this Parliament, of which 3000 have already been in place to 3000 have already been in place to date.
Now, in answer to the noble Lord Purvis question, there is a patchwork currently of patchwork currently of responsibilities for policing five existing mayors in London, Greater Manchester, West Yorkshire, South Yorkshire and North Yorkshire have policing powers. There are existing mayors in Merseyside, Derby, West Midlands and the West Country who don't have policing powers. There are new mayors coming on stream in Norfolk and Suffolk, Essex, Sussex, Cumbria, Hampshire and potentially in Cheshire and Lancashire who don't currently have policing powers. And there are other areas such as Humberside where there is, and Lincolnshire where there are police and crime commissioners, which overlap with mayors who have been elected directly on their areas.
That's a that's a really big patchwork. And what we're trying to do is to get as far as possible for the mayoral model to have the accountability for policing, as is the case in the five to date, where there is usually. But it's up to the mayor, a deputy mayor who's appointed to be responsible as the lead person for those statements. Now, I think that's a helpful thing to do. He's asked why we brought it forward now. We thought it was useful to give as much notice as possible that the cancellation of the elections would happen in 2028.
He's asked about the police and white paper. I can give him an assurance that police white paper will be produced before Christmas of this year, and will therefore be before both Houses of Parliament before Christmas of this year. But it is important that we give as much notice as possible once the decision has been taken, and we wanted to ensure that police and crime commissioners had an opportunity to reflect upon that. I think the noble Lord has mentioned, well, how does this help crime? Well, I think it gives a focus.
It gives a direction, it gives greater efficiency. But equally, it's not to be seen in a in a isolation we're dealing with, as he knows, every week, day, almost every day of this week, the police and crime bill, we've got 13,000 extra officers in place. We've got additional initiatives on shop theft. We've got a whole range of other proposals on anti-social behaviour, on knife crime, which are helping to deal with crime. He mentions London. London has the lowest murder rate this year, very high, still at 93 people being killed.
I'm not denying that, but it's the lowest rate for for many years and there is a push on trying to reduce crime across the board, which this will be part. Now, in answer to the noble Baroness Doocey, operational independence is absolutely critical. And that's one of the reasons, again, that we're trying to move away from this model, because there is still a temptation for police and crime commissioners to want to be the chief constable, as well as the police and crime budget setting individual.
And that operational independence, independence of political interference is absolutely vital. The police and crime boards that we're going to establish in areas where there's not a mayor will potentially have the same role with lots of senior councillors from an area being able to hold the chief constable to account and to set a budget, and that potentially the London model is is very appropriate for that because there is an opportunity for the lead councillors in an area, usually potentially the leaders of the local councils, to hold the Chief constable to account and to set a budget and to do so because remember, again, in local council areas, the budget settlement is a precept and the police precept is usually included in the rates bill, and the rates bill is held to account by the leader of the council, usually, and leaders of the council.
So I think there's there's scope there as a whole. I welcome the baroness's welcome for the abolition, and I hope that she'll work with us and we publish legislation as we have to, to implement this measure at some point in the future, that she will have the support and the ability to test those issues at this time. But I would say to all noble Lords that the first election had a turnout of 15%. The second election was slightly higher.
The third election was down on the second election of 24%. There's not necessarily an awareness, and I think anybody who lives in Greater Manchester knows who Andy Burnham is. Everybody who lives in my neck of the woods in Merseyside knows who. Steve Rotherham is. Now, look, I'm lucky know I'm lucky, I'm lucky. I'm being distracted by the noble Lord Swire who's a anxious to bounce. We have 20 minutes in this first part for the noble Lord Swire. He should know that by now.
He's bouncing away, trying to get in, but I. I will give him opportunity. I still have potentially up to eight minutes before this, 20 minutes for the House to answer questions. So everybody does know who Steve Rotherham is in the area. And he did put me off for the crucial moment there, but I forgive him for that and we'll continue. I would just say to the house generally this is a deficiency measure. It will focus policing, it will help support the government's crime mission and Safer streets mission.
And I commend it to the House.
15:58
Baroness Chakrabarti (Labour)
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Baroness Chakrabarti (Labour)
My Lord, my Lord, my Lord, my Lord. Can I remind the House and declare perhaps, that as a former director of Liberty, I was in unusual lockstep with the chief constables in opposing what was to become the cross-party mistake of police and crime commissioners? Does my noble friend, the Minister, agree with me that the designed fault that distinguishes the PCC model from others that have that have been discussed, including committees of councillors and mayors and so on? The design fault is in the word temptation in the statement, because an elected politician whose sole raison d'etre is policing faces the almost inevitable temptation to to dip their toes, particularly in in media statements into operational matters.
And it's that design fault future.
And it's that design fault future.
15:59
Lord Hanson of Flint, The Minister of State, Home Department (Labour)
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Lord Hanson of Flint, The Minister of State, Home Department (Labour)
I agree with my hon. Friend. I would say to the House the two key things for me in the potential new model is that the police, mayoral model, Stroke Policing Board model will be accountable for setting the budget and for holding the Chief Constable to account, whoever he or she may be, for the delivery of a policing crime plan that the Police and Crime Commissioner signs off. The temptation is there now for a running commentary for wanting to be the front person on any incident in a community, because ultimately that election depends solely on police and crime performance.
It doesn't depend, as the mayor does, on most of the mayors that we have here on a whole range of issues, which many of which are not directly political, but many of which are. So I think there's a there's a shift there, which I think I hope will be welcome. But again, at some point this House will have an opportunity to test the proposals we have, because legislation will be required to facilitate these changes.
It doesn't depend, as the mayor does, on most of the mayors that we have here on a whole range of issues, which many of which are not directly political, but many of which are. So I think there's a there's a shift there, which I think I hope will be welcome. But again, at some point this House will have an opportunity to test the proposals we have, because legislation will be required to facilitate these changes.
16:00
Lord Swire (Conservative)
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Lord Swire (Conservative)
The Minister. Bill, and it will be interesting to raise these matters again, because of course, some local authorities are moving to unitary, others to mayors as well, and this will all fit in to that new template. But how can the noble Lord convince us that actually this will improve the quality of some of our senior police? We have some very, very good chief constables, not least the Chief Constable of Greater Manchester, were others of that calibre. But equally we have some situations, like in my own area in Devon, where we've had at 1.3 chief constables, one suspended, the temporary one suspended as well and then an interim one as well, all being paid for at the same time.
That is bad policing. That is bad leadership. How is any of this going to increase the quality of those at the top of policing. those at the top of policing.
That is bad policing. That is bad leadership. How is any of this going to increase the quality of those at the top of policing. those at the top of policing.
16:01
Lord Hanson of Flint, The Minister of State, Home Department (Labour)
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Lord Hanson of Flint, The Minister of State, Home Department (Labour)
The noble Lord is absolutely right. What we need to do is to ensure that we have extremely good support via the police service, for improving the quality of senior officers. And that's why, again, with the Police and Crime Bill, if he looks at that in detail, he will see that there are measures to improve the training, support, promotion opportunities and quality vetting and other mechanisms in relation to improving the quality of police officers. Again, I think it's important that the police individual for the mayor's office or the police board hold the chief constable to account, and it's arguable that in the case that he mentions that that didn't happen to the extent that potentially it should have done.
There's an important distinction budget holding to account, agreeing a plan versus day to day operational activity and to improve the quality of staff is absolutely important. And that's what the new proposals we have in the Police and Crime Bill are designed to do.
There's an important distinction budget holding to account, agreeing a plan versus day to day operational activity and to improve the quality of staff is absolutely important. And that's what the new proposals we have in the Police and Crime Bill are designed to do.
16:02
Lord Hogan-Howe (Crossbench)
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Lord Hogan-Howe (Crossbench)
I think.
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The the right. Thing in. Removing PCC. That said, I think
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Removing PCC. That said, I think some of them were very good and sometimes they made some good decisions. Oh, interestingly, as decisions. Oh, interestingly, as PCC came along, we ended up with selections for chief constables with one applicant, the home with one applicant, the home candidate. And unsurprisingly, they ended up with people who agreed with them. So I'm afraid some with them. So I'm afraid some change was necessary. And I think that's a good idea. I'm less convinced entirely by the government's solution in one respect.
First of all, I think the move to mayors may be a good idea. move to mayors may be a good idea. I worry about the rest because it looks like the the Minister said that at the moment it's a patchwork. that at the moment it's a patchwork. I'm afraid the alternative solution to a mayor looks like a hotchpotch. And I including that the City of And I including that the City of London, who appear to be keeping their own committee for reasons which is entirely beyond me.
Why is which is entirely beyond me. Why is the City of London the smallest force in the country, need a committee that nobody else can committee that nobody else can manage? And finally, I'm not sure about the savings. I almost guarantee you that the council guarantee you that the council leaders who take on this responsibility will want their own people to support them. And they will. They will absorb that savings will. They will absorb that savings immediately. The government may want to look at what arrangements are going to go in place, and it's going to be any cap on the expenditure for the new governance, which frankly, has gone through the roof, because that's the saving that the Minister has just explained is going to be gained by the new arrangements.
the new arrangements.
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The the right. Thing in. Removing PCC. That said, I think
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Removing PCC. That said, I think some of them were very good and sometimes they made some good decisions. Oh, interestingly, as decisions. Oh, interestingly, as PCC came along, we ended up with selections for chief constables with one applicant, the home with one applicant, the home candidate. And unsurprisingly, they ended up with people who agreed with them. So I'm afraid some with them. So I'm afraid some change was necessary. And I think that's a good idea. I'm less convinced entirely by the government's solution in one respect.
First of all, I think the move to mayors may be a good idea. move to mayors may be a good idea. I worry about the rest because it looks like the the Minister said that at the moment it's a patchwork. that at the moment it's a patchwork. I'm afraid the alternative solution to a mayor looks like a hotchpotch. And I including that the City of And I including that the City of London, who appear to be keeping their own committee for reasons which is entirely beyond me.
Why is which is entirely beyond me. Why is the City of London the smallest force in the country, need a committee that nobody else can committee that nobody else can manage? And finally, I'm not sure about the savings. I almost guarantee you that the council guarantee you that the council leaders who take on this responsibility will want their own people to support them. And they will. They will absorb that savings will. They will absorb that savings immediately. The government may want to look at what arrangements are going to go in place, and it's going to be any cap on the expenditure for the new governance, which frankly, has gone through the roof, because that's the saving that the Minister has just explained is going to be gained by the new arrangements.
the new arrangements.
16:04
Lord Hanson of Flint, The Minister of State, Home Department (Labour)
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Lord Hanson of Flint, The Minister of State, Home Department (Labour)
Can I can I first of all echo what the noble Lord has said? This is not in any way directed at the performance of individual police and crime commissioners. There are many good people who have given a lot of commitments, a lot of time, and in many cases have made significant changes. But at the end of the day, we're looking at the governance model. And the governance model, in my view, needs to move towards that mayoral model and where we can do that, we will do that.
Now, the problem that we have, and this is the genuine problem, is that not every area at the moment is seeking to have a mayor. Not all the police authorities are coterminous with mayoral authorities. Those are issues we're going to have to look at downstream. But the general presumption is to try to build on the models that we have now in London, Greater Manchester and in the Yorkshires to ensure that we firm up that mayoral accountability. Now, there are other issues in the police white paper that, again, I've just confirmed to the noble Lord Davis will be produced before Christmas that look at efficiency and a range of matters to do with improvements of training.
Going back to the point that the noble Lord Swire has made, and looking at a whole range of issues, of how we can improve outputs and performance in policing. If the noble Lord will allow me, I will bring that back to this house before Christmas. But I
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have to at the moment not stray too much into that area. Lord Spellar Lord Mair.
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Lord Spellar Lord Mair. Our Lords, as a superintendent. Some years ago.
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Some years ago. I spent some time at the FBI Academy in. Quantico studying. The criminal justice. System in the USA.
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System in the USA. This is where the idea of. Police and crime commissioners.
Now, the problem that we have, and this is the genuine problem, is that not every area at the moment is seeking to have a mayor. Not all the police authorities are coterminous with mayoral authorities. Those are issues we're going to have to look at downstream. But the general presumption is to try to build on the models that we have now in London, Greater Manchester and in the Yorkshires to ensure that we firm up that mayoral accountability. Now, there are other issues in the police white paper that, again, I've just confirmed to the noble Lord Davis will be produced before Christmas that look at efficiency and a range of matters to do with improvements of training.
Going back to the point that the noble Lord Swire has made, and looking at a whole range of issues, of how we can improve outputs and performance in policing. If the noble Lord will allow me, I will bring that back to this house before Christmas. But I
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have to at the moment not stray too much into that area. Lord Spellar Lord Mair.
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Lord Spellar Lord Mair. Our Lords, as a superintendent. Some years ago.
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Some years ago. I spent some time at the FBI Academy in. Quantico studying. The criminal justice. System in the USA.
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System in the USA. This is where the idea of. Police and crime commissioners.
16:06
Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate (Non-affiliated)
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Emanated from. Judges and district attorney. Not to mention county. Sheriffs, are elected by
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political parties. This goes right up. The ladder. And we see today. The FBI director being sacked by
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The FBI director being sacked by the president. President. Trump's wishes. He also. Incidentally, appoints the.
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Incidentally, appoints the. Members of the Supreme Court. The Justice Department is. Directed to carry out the
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Directed to carry out the president's wishes. Does the noble Lord. The Minister. Agree with me that the rule of
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Agree with me that the rule of law is a precious thing to have being born out of Magna Carta. Which places legal limits on government power, it evolved the idea of fair trials, habeas corpus and universal legal rights, and political parties should not be involved in political governance, which is evidenced by the low turnout in elections in police and crime commissioners elections. Chief officers should be independent of party politics. My Lords, I oppose the PCs, the PCCs as president of the Police Superintendents Association and still do.
And I wholeheartedly welcome these changes.
Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate (Non-affiliated)
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Emanated from. Judges and district attorney. Not to mention county. Sheriffs, are elected by
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political parties. This goes right up. The ladder. And we see today. The FBI director being sacked by
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The FBI director being sacked by the president. President. Trump's wishes. He also. Incidentally, appoints the.
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Incidentally, appoints the. Members of the Supreme Court. The Justice Department is. Directed to carry out the
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Directed to carry out the president's wishes. Does the noble Lord. The Minister. Agree with me that the rule of
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Agree with me that the rule of law is a precious thing to have being born out of Magna Carta. Which places legal limits on government power, it evolved the idea of fair trials, habeas corpus and universal legal rights, and political parties should not be involved in political governance, which is evidenced by the low turnout in elections in police and crime commissioners elections. Chief officers should be independent of party politics. My Lords, I oppose the PCs, the PCCs as president of the Police Superintendents Association and still do.
And I wholeheartedly welcome these changes.
16:07
Lord Hanson of Flint, The Minister of State, Home Department (Labour)
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Lord Hanson of Flint, The Minister of State, Home Department (Labour)
I'm grateful I can take them. My noble friend, back to 2010. Stroke 11 when the then opposition Labour Party opposed police and Crime commissioners in principle, but fought the elections because when there's an elected position there, you have to try and fight to fill it. But we have looked at the issues of governance now. We have looked at the issues that my noble friend mentions. We do think that it's important we have independence of policing, but we do believe still there has to be some oversight of that policing.
There has to be some oversight of the budget. There has to be some oversight of the accountability for the chief constable. And that's why the directly elected mayor, amongst their many other responsibilities, will include the appointment of a deputy mayor, potentially to run policing. And in those areas which don't have directly elected mayors, we will look at having an elected, indirectly elected policing board comprising of senior people from the council. But it's absolutely important that the integrity of that independence is maintained.
that independence is maintained.
There has to be some oversight of the budget. There has to be some oversight of the accountability for the chief constable. And that's why the directly elected mayor, amongst their many other responsibilities, will include the appointment of a deputy mayor, potentially to run policing. And in those areas which don't have directly elected mayors, we will look at having an elected, indirectly elected policing board comprising of senior people from the council. But it's absolutely important that the integrity of that independence is maintained.
that independence is maintained.
16:08
The Lord Bishop of Guildford (Bishops)
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The Lord Bishop of Guildford (Bishops)
Come this statement and. Agree with. Its direction of travel.
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Fellow bishop serving in more. Urban contexts. Where elected. Mayors now hold. Policing functions. Speak positively. About the.
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About the. accountability. That. The new approach. Has engendered, and.
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Other communities, such as my own. Have had to work extremely hard to interest the electorate in voting for a. Police and.
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voting for a. Police and. Crime commissioner. I think we have done slightly better than average in that regard. But even then the turnout is
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But even then the turnout is comparatively low. I guess my. Question is whether the idea of the new policing and crime boards the new policing and crime boards will lead to tensions in communities where so-called upper tier leaders, who are often not tier leaders, who are often not used to working together, take very different perspectives on policing priorities. What might be done at
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Fellow bishop serving in more. Urban contexts. Where elected. Mayors now hold. Policing functions. Speak positively. About the.
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About the. accountability. That. The new approach. Has engendered, and.
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Other communities, such as my own. Have had to work extremely hard to interest the electorate in voting for a. Police and.
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voting for a. Police and. Crime commissioner. I think we have done slightly better than average in that regard. But even then the turnout is
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But even then the turnout is comparatively low. I guess my. Question is whether the idea of the new policing and crime boards the new policing and crime boards will lead to tensions in communities where so-called upper tier leaders, who are often not tier leaders, who are often not used to working together, take very different perspectives on policing priorities. What might be done at
16:09
Lord Hanson of Flint, The Minister of State, Home Department (Labour)
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this stage to lessen the potential of stalemate in such situations? I think. There's an important point,
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There's an important point, because there's still always going to be in an area such as the right reverend Prelate. Tensions between rural councils and the Urban rural councils and the Urban Council. There's going to be tensions in any authority between high crime levels and lower crime levels. But I hope that the again, the Policing Board model, which again, will, I think be the minority because of the numbers of mayors that are either in place or downstream coming on stream between now and the election in 2028, that the Policing Board model will be one of of serious grown up adults having to set a rate for police funding and then set a plan for police funding, and then hold the chief constable to account for delivering it.
That's there three essential roles, and I think with due respect to the police and crime commissioner, those three roles can be managed as additional roles to what council leaders are doing. And it's no different than council leaders contributing to a wider district plan on environment issues, on transport issues, or on housing issues, which happens on every other field of local government responsibility now. responsibility now.
Lord Hanson of Flint, The Minister of State, Home Department (Labour)
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this stage to lessen the potential of stalemate in such situations? I think. There's an important point,
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There's an important point, because there's still always going to be in an area such as the right reverend Prelate. Tensions between rural councils and the Urban rural councils and the Urban Council. There's going to be tensions in any authority between high crime levels and lower crime levels. But I hope that the again, the Policing Board model, which again, will, I think be the minority because of the numbers of mayors that are either in place or downstream coming on stream between now and the election in 2028, that the Policing Board model will be one of of serious grown up adults having to set a rate for police funding and then set a plan for police funding, and then hold the chief constable to account for delivering it.
That's there three essential roles, and I think with due respect to the police and crime commissioner, those three roles can be managed as additional roles to what council leaders are doing. And it's no different than council leaders contributing to a wider district plan on environment issues, on transport issues, or on housing issues, which happens on every other field of local government responsibility now. responsibility now.
16:10
Lord Paddick (Non-affiliated)
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Lord Paddick (Non-affiliated)
I declare my interest as a paid but fiercely independent advisor to the Metropolitan Police. My Lords, the statement says that the PCC model has drawn policing more into politics and had perverse impacts on the recruitment of chief constables. Are these problems not the result of concentrating the power to hire and fire chief
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constables in the hands of one party politically aligned individual? So how. Does moving to elected mayors
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constables in the hands of one party politically aligned individual? So how. Does moving to elected mayors
16:10
Lord Hanson of Flint, The Minister of State, Home Department (Labour)
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Does moving to elected mayors address this problem? Yeah, well.
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That the power to appoint the chief constable will reside with the appointed person who has responsibility for policing. That could well be the mayor. It could be the person who's appointed by the mayor as the deputy mayor. It could be the lead councillor in a board of policing and crime boards. That dilemma that the noble Lord has mentioned will still be there, but I think it's still an important matter for the wider responsibilities to allow the Chief Constable to be appointed by the person who, ultimately, they're going to be accountable to.
That's the same as any chief executive. But that political interference on the day to day business of the chief constable is an absolute red line that we want to strengthen.
Lord Hanson of Flint, The Minister of State, Home Department (Labour)
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Does moving to elected mayors address this problem? Yeah, well.
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That the power to appoint the chief constable will reside with the appointed person who has responsibility for policing. That could well be the mayor. It could be the person who's appointed by the mayor as the deputy mayor. It could be the lead councillor in a board of policing and crime boards. That dilemma that the noble Lord has mentioned will still be there, but I think it's still an important matter for the wider responsibilities to allow the Chief Constable to be appointed by the person who, ultimately, they're going to be accountable to.
That's the same as any chief executive. But that political interference on the day to day business of the chief constable is an absolute red line that we want to strengthen.
16:11
Lord Grocott (Labour)
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Lord Grocott (Labour)
I strongly support the statement that my noble friend has.
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Has made. And he was right to remind us of the history, which is that the the history, which is that the Labour Party opposed the creation of these positions, and we have been 100% right in doing so, because they failed in their central objective, which was to make policing more accountable. The make policing more accountable. The fact of the abysmal turnout for elections shows that that hasn't worked. And added to which is the 16% recognition figure that's in the statement for the number of people who can say who the police commissioner is in their area.
So I only really have one rather nosy only really have one rather nosy question to ask in my noble friend, whether with his insight, information and bearing in mind information and bearing in mind that this was a decision by the coalition government, who do we primarily blame for this? Was it
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Has made. And he was right to remind us of the history, which is that the the history, which is that the Labour Party opposed the creation of these positions, and we have been 100% right in doing so, because they failed in their central objective, which was to make policing more accountable. The make policing more accountable. The fact of the abysmal turnout for elections shows that that hasn't worked. And added to which is the 16% recognition figure that's in the statement for the number of people who can say who the police commissioner is in their area.
So I only really have one rather nosy only really have one rather nosy question to ask in my noble friend, whether with his insight, information and bearing in mind information and bearing in mind that this was a decision by the coalition government, who do we primarily blame for this? Was it