Prison and Youth Custody Centre Safety

Phillip Lee Excerpts

Wednesday 19th July 2017 Commons Chamber

[Seema Malhotra (Feltham and Heston) (Lab/Co-op)]

(Urgent Question): To ask the Secretary of State for Justice if he will make a statement on safety in prisons and the findings of Her Majesty’s chief inspector’s annual report.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Dr Phillip Lee)]

Independent scrutiny is an essential part of our prison system, and I thank the chief inspector of prisons and his team for the work they do in delivering this, including through his annual report. His report raises important issues in relation to safety and security in prisons and youth custody. We have been clear that a calm and ordered environment needs to be created to ensure effective rehabilitation, and that achieving this is our priority.

The current levels of violence, self-harm and self-inflicted deaths in the adult estate are unacceptable. The issues in our prisons have deep roots and, while they will not be addressed overnight, we are combining immediate action to stabilise the estate with significant additional investment. For example, we are investing £100 million a year to bring in an additional 2,500 prison officers by the end of 2018. We are already making significant progress, with a net increase of 515 prison officers in post at the end of March compared with the previous quarter.

Turning to youth justice, the annual report highlights particular issues regarding the youth estate. I reassure the hon. Lady that the safety and welfare of every young person in custody is of paramount importance to me and we are clear that more needs to be done to achieve this.

In response to Charlie Taylor’s review of the youth justice system last December, the Government acknowledged the serious issues the youth justice system faces, and that is why we are reforming the system. Let me give three examples of the progress we are making. First, we have created a new youth custody service, with an executive director, for the first time in the Department’s history. Secondly, the development of a new youth justice specialist officer role is ensuring that more staff can be specifically trained to work with young people, boosting the numbers on the operational frontline in youth offender institutions by 20%, and recruiting workers specifically trained to work within the youth sector. Thirdly, there is the introduction of a more individualised approach for young people focused on education and health, enhancing the workforce, improving governance, and developing the secure estate.

Finally, in his report the chief inspector expressed disappointment about the implementation rate of his recommendations. I recognise this concern, and to address this, we have created a new unit within Her Majesty’s Prison and Probation Service to help ensure that recommendations are taken forward in a timely manner and to track how they are being implemented by prisons.

The issues within our prisons will not be resolved overnight, but we are determined to make progress as quickly as possible, and I hope that hon. Members on both sides of the House will support our plans for reform.

[Seema Malhotra]

Last year, the chief inspector reported that too many of our prisons had become unacceptably violent and dangerous. This year, he reports that the situation has not improved, and that it has got worse. Staff assaults increased by 38% in the 12 months to December 2016. Of the 29 local prisons and training institutes inspected last year, 21 were judged to be poor, or not sufficiently good, in the area of safety.

Only two weeks ago, here in the Chamber, I raised the issues at Feltham young offenders institution, but this devastating report is a cause for even greater concern. The jump in violence in our prisons is a crisis of the Government’s own making. The warning signs have been there. The Government have been warned by MPs, by the staff in our prisons and by charities. Now they are being condemned by this damning report. The budget for prisons has been cut by more than a fifth over the past six years, and those cuts have now been proved to be a false economy. Prison staff numbers have been cut by a quarter and those who remain are being put at risk. The human impact of Tory austerity is now being laid bare in our prison system. Effective prisons should be about rehabilitation, so that people come out less likely to reoffend. Drugs, debt and bullying are contributing to the violence, but this has been found to be compounded by staffing levels described as being simply too low to keep order and run a decent regime.

In the last Parliament, the Government introduced a Bill to address some of these safety concerns. However, the Bill was lost on Dissolution. Despite recognition of prison safety being in the Tory manifesto, no prisons legislation was announced in the 2017 Queen’s Speech. Will the Minister tell the House whether there is any intention of bringing back that legislation? Will he also tell us why a third of prisons have been found not to have implemented the prisons and probation ombudsman’s recommendations on reducing the risk of self-inflicted death? What action is being taken to address governance concerns and the extensive use of force and segregation? Will the Minister also update the House on the implementation of progress on recruitment and the action being taken to keep experienced staff and retain new staff? Our prison system is no longer fit for purpose and the Government must take urgent action.

[Dr Lee]

We fully recognise that there are difficulties in the prison system—we have been honest about that ever since I have been in the Department—and yes, the staffing issue has been indicated as a problem. It has been addressed in the last year and, as I have said, we have appointed more than 500 to March and we are on course to fulfil our target of 2,500 extra prison officers by the end of 2018. I would argue, however, that the unforeseen exacerbant in prisons has been the use of Spice and other drugs. This was not anticipated by any previous Government and it is undeniably causing difficulties in terms of the behaviour of prisoners and the corruption of prisoners and some staff with regard to the trade in those substances.

I also take seriously the issue of mental health in prisons. Only yesterday I had further meetings with the Department of Health, which carries responsibility for that. We recognise that we need to improve mental health services for offenders, including the services relating to substance misuse, both in custody and in the community. We are working hard to make those improvements because we know that those issues are contributing to the problems that the hon. Lady has raised.

In relation to the youth estate, and particularly to Feltham, which is in the hon. Lady’s constituency, the use of segregation is an issue. It has been an issue recently in the case that has been raised, but I cannot comment on that case because there is an appeal. This indicates how difficult it can be to manage young people. Over the past 10 years, the number of young people being held in custody has fallen from 3,000 to 1,000. That is something to celebrate. What we cannot celebrate, however, is the fact that when that target was set, before 2010, no plan was in place to change the infrastructure to meet the demands of dealing with and managing 1,000 extremely difficult young people at any one time. We are seeing problems not just at Feltham but across the youth justice system. I am fully aware of those problems, and that is why we are bringing forward two new secure schools over the next two years.

[Robert Neill (Bromley and Chislehurst) (Con)]

The Minister is right to be frank, as he always has been, about the dire state of affairs in our prisons, which the Select Committee highlighted in a number of reports during the last Parliament. On a constructive note, does he recognise that although the Queen’s Speech contained no prisons legislation for the current Session, it would none the less be appropriate for the Government to take forward much of the prison reform agenda that does not require legislation? In particular, will he commit to ensuring that data and updates are provided to the House—through the Select Committee or otherwise—on the progress of the implementation of Her Majesty’s inspectorate’s recommendations? We do not need legislation for the Government to be transparent about that, and we need to track the progress that is being made.

[Dr Lee]

I congratulate my hon. Friend on his reappointment as Chair of the Justice Committee. We are committed to transparency on this. We recognise that there is a series of challenges and problems within the system, and I would be more than happy to come before his Committee to discuss this further. In regard to legislation, we have not ruled out future legislation on prisons, but I would argue that there is quite a lot we can be getting on with that does not require legislation. We are eager, keen and determined to reform our prison system.

[Richard Burgon (Leeds East) (Lab)]

Yesterday’s scathing report by the chief inspector of prisons in England and Wales represents a watershed moment in the national debate on our prisons. Prisons should be places not only of punishment but of rehabilitation. They should be making us all safer in the short run and in the longer term. I believe that the whole House will be alarmed by the chief inspector’s view that

“too many of our prisons had become unacceptably violent and dangerous places.”

Members on both sides of the House are all too well aware that there is a crisis in our prisons, and yesterday’s report revealed that, despite the Government’s warm words, the situation is not under control, and it is getting worse.

In the light of that, I believe that the Minister has some serious questions to answer. Does he agree with the remarks by his former colleague, the former Chancellor of the Exchequer and former next Prime Minister, that prisons are approaching an “emergency”? What role does he think the substantial cuts to the prisons budget since 2010 have played in this, and what measures will he undertake to address the situation? The chief inspector of prisons in England and Wales has warned that this crisis

“has all been compounded by staffing levels in many jails that are simply too low”.

Does the Minister agree that prison officers deserve a pay rise, and that that will be necessary if we are going to increase numbers and improve retention?

The chief inspector has also said that he is

“appalled by the conditions in which we hold many prisoners”.

What measures is the Minister taking to address this and to reform our prisons so that prisoners leave prison as less, rather than more, of a danger to society? Most shockingly, the number of self-inflicted deaths has more than doubled since 2013. What strategy will he adopt, and what specific resources will he allocate, to reduce that number? The chief inspector said that he had

“reached the conclusion that there was not a single establishment that we inspected in England and Wales in which it was safe to hold children and young people.”

He added that the speed of decline had been staggering, given that in 2013-14, nine out of 12 institutions were graded as good or reasonably good for safety. What explanation does this Minister have for this? Everyone knows that the Government have created a crisis in our prisons. What yesterday’s report shows is that they are failing to take action to solve it.

[Dr Lee]

I do not accept that the Department has lost control of the prison system. That is nonsense. We have a full grip on the issues that we need to face. I would like to talk about the £1.3 billion that we have invested to transform the estate. By transforming it, we are going to improve the quality of the accommodation for prisoners, which will have a direct impact on the problems that we are encountering among the small volume of people who have mental health and suicide issues. We recognise that parts of our estate are antiquated, and that is why we are investing the money.

As I have already said, we know that there are many difficulties in the youth justice system, where the violence rate is 10 times higher than in the adult prison estate. I give my full support to the staff who continue to work in the youth estate because I have seen it with my own eyes: I have visited the majority of the youth estate and it is extremely difficult. I would argue that the genesis of the problem goes back many years. As I alluded to earlier, the admirable intention to reduce the number of people being locked up in the youth estate has brought us to a point at which we have a very challenging population that is particularly violent and difficult to manage. That is why we have the problems we have.

We are bringing forward plans on secure schools—there are two in the pipeline—and we intend to make them a completely different regime with a completely different curriculum balance, including getting people outside more because I am particularly passionate about the use of sport, so that we can deal with the issues we are confronting. I am under no illusions about how difficult this issue is, but we have a plan and we are going to implement it.

[Mrs Cheryl Gillan (Chesham and Amersham) (Con)]

I know the Minister appreciates the fact that people with autism are disproportionately represented in the custodial system. Notwithstanding the issues at YOI Feltham, it was in fact the first prison to receive autism-friendly accreditation, and the governor and staff there report that that contributed to a diminishment in violence levels across the whole estate. Some 20 prisons have indicated interest in such accreditation. Will the Minister look into the programme and consider making its roll-out compulsory throughout the entire prison estate? It would be of benefit to prisoners and prison staff alike.

[Dr Lee]

Yes, I am more than happy to consider rolling out that programme. There are positive schemes, and not only with regard to the diagnosis, treatment and management of autism; various sports clubs, rugby clubs and football clubs are also involved, such as Saracens at Feltham. The work they are doing and the evidence of its outcomes are all positive. That is why I am passionate about this: if we can get the management of autism and mental health right and broaden the curriculum so that more time is spent outside cells, I am convinced that we can change the behaviour and atmosphere in each prison and institution so that staff can feel safe while they are at work.

[Joanna Cherry (Edinburgh South West) (SNP)]

The combination of rising prisoner numbers and shrinking budgets is a major factor that affects the welfare of prison officers and prisoners. In that context, it is regrettable that the UK Government dropped prison reform from the Queen’s Speech and continue to cut budgets and staff numbers. In contrast, the Scottish National party Government in Scotland have continued to invest in modernising and improving the prison estate. They have also committed to significant penal reform, aimed at reducing reoffending by moving away from custodial sentences in favour of community sentences, which have been proven to be better for rehabilitation. Does the Minister agree that he should follow the Scottish Government’s example and concentrate his efforts on schemes that will reduce prison numbers and overcrowding, thereby reducing pressure on prison officers and prisoners?

[Dr Lee]

Yes, intellectually I agree with the hon. and learned Lady that it would make life a lot easier if we could reduce the prison population, and I know that the Secretary of State agrees with that position. The difficulty is the constant balance with the justice issue: if people have committed crimes, they have to serve the time. The question is where they serve that time. I am responsible for women’s justice, on which a strategy is coming out by the end of the year. I very much want that strategy to concentrate on the provision of community sentences and for us to move to that model of prison—in future years it could be rolled out to the adult male estate, but I am just looking at the female estate. I think that we can learn a lot from where we hold people when they are serving their time. I am going to Scotland in the autumn and am looking forward to seeing a few programmes up there, because I gather that some good work is being done.

[Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)]

Is the Minister satisfied that sufficient remedies are available to deal with violent offenders?

[Dr Lee]

Yes, I am.

[Sir Edward Davey (Kingston and Surbiton) (LD)]

The Minister is right to say that legislation will not solve this crisis by itself—many other measures are necessary—but will he tell the House why the Prisons and Courts Bill, which was drafted and had made some progress in the previous Parliament, has been dropped? If the Government are committed to prison reform, why have they dropped a piece of legislation that was ready to be considered by the House?

[Dr Lee]

We can deliver our reform package without any further legislation. We will not rule out further legislation if there is a requirement for it in future, but the right hon. Gentleman will recognise that there are pressures on parliamentary time and this is something we are having to accommodate. Nevertheless, there is absolutely no reason why we cannot continue with the reform programme we have planned.

[Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con)]

Does the Minister agree that although there are challenges, dedicated officers are doing much positive and transformative work in prisons on issues such as mental health, as well as through chaplaincy services and restorative justice programmes? An example is the work I have seen being done at Thorn Cross Prison over many years by Shawn Verhey and Lorraine Turner. Will he join me in thanking them, and the many dedicated officers like them who do such a tremendous job?

[Dr Lee]

Yes. That is another example of how, throughout the system, positive schemes are being followed. People who work in a variety of areas, particularly mental health, are delivering care to the prisoners who need it, so that they can rehabilitate properly before they return to society.

[Caroline Flint (Don Valley) (Lab)]

The Minister referred to the advent of drugs such as Spice as an unknown quantity for the Prison Service to have to deal with, but the fact that there are a quarter fewer prison officers than in 2010 hardly helps to address new challenges. Assaults on staff are up by 70% since 2009, and in 2016 alone one in five justice staff members left the sector. Will the Minister confirm that there is a retention crisis, which is being fuelled by the disgraceful rise in the number of assaults on Prison Service staff?

[Dr Lee]

As I hope the right hon. Lady would acknowledge, I am trying to be as candid as possible about the difficulties we face. A year ago, we acknowledged that there was a need for more staff, and we are delivering on that. I must stress, though, that there was no expectation that the drug would cause this problem. There is yet to be proper documentation on how it affects the prisoners who take it and their behaviour, and on the long-term impact that that will have on the prison population. We acknowledge that we need more staff, and that those staff need better training. In the youth justice system, we are introducing a new youth custody role, because we recognise that additional skills are needed. We recognise the problems, and we are working to solve them.

[Kevin Foster (Torbay) (Con)]

The Minister will share my concern about the impact of contraband, and particularly new psychoactive substances, on prisoners and the violence that it can cause, so will he say what measures the Department is taking to prevent such materials from getting into prisons?

[Dr Lee]

I thank my hon. Friend for his question. We have improved the seizure of drugs; the figure for the past 12 months is about 225 kg, which is up on the previous year. We have employed dogs to detect psychoactive substances, and we were the first jurisdiction in the world to introduce drug testing for psychoactive substances. We continue to develop that service as the substances evolve.

[Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab)]

I hope that the planned new youth custody service works, but will the Minister say how many new prison officers will join the existing service this year?

[Dr Lee]

No, I cannot give the hon. Gentleman an exact figure, but I will write to him with it. We are actively seeking to recruit in every single institution area, particularly in south-east England, where there are always challenges in recruiting prison staff. Perhaps more importantly, we are trying to recruit people who have a history of working with young people. Working with troubled young individuals is a difficult business, and we recognise that there may have been recruitment errors in the past. We want to recruit people who have the proper experience.

[Stephen Hammond (Wimbledon) (Con)]

The Minister will know that I have previously questioned his Department about rehabilitation. As a result of the report, will he prioritise rehabilitation plans for offenders and employment opportunities for ex-offenders?

[Dr Lee]

Yes, that is very much our intention. There are several schemes throughout the country that involve employers. I visited Drake Hall, a women’s prison, where Halfords has a bicycle repair unit, and met an offender who was leaving prison a week or so later to work for Halfords. Such schemes up and down the country are fantastic and we need more of them. We are working hard on getting more.

[Ms Karen Buck (Westminster North) (Lab)]

This is surely an issue of safeguarding. The chief inspector of prisons says that there is not a single establishment that is currently safe to hold children and young people. The Minister did not answer the specific question put to him by my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds East (Richard Burgon) about why there has been such a staggering decline in safety over the past year and, as the chief inspector said, such a “slump in standards”. Can the Minister explain what a “slump in standards” means, and what he is doing to address it?

[Dr Lee]

I do not accept that all institutions fit that description. YOI Werrington received a positive report last week. I would argue that the slump has not happened over the past year. As I keep saying, the problem came about over a number of years. With some institutions, we are wrestling with a legacy of issues. At one institution, for example, a contract that was signed in 2004 is preventing us from making necessary changes. The idea that this problem was created by this Government is simplistic and just not accurate.

[Tom Pursglove (Corby) (Con)]

This Government are building new prison capacity, including at Wellingborough in north Northamptonshire. What difference does my hon. Friend believe that that will make in terms of improving safety?

[Dr Lee]

I thank my hon. Friend for his question. As I said earlier, some of our prisons are Victorian. They are antiquated, and the quality of the cells is substandard, which is why we are building new prisons. Cells in which prisoners find it much harder to commit suicide are what is needed, which is why I am pleased that we are investing £1.3 billion in the system.

[Tony Lloyd (Rochdale) (Lab)]

Let me declare an interest as an outgoing police and crime commissioner. This report is devastating and the Minister must act on it. One way of acting very quickly would be to invest in things such as non-custodial programmes for women offenders and intensive community orders, which have better returns in terms of reoffending rates. Will the Minister commit this Government to putting money where it will make a real difference?

[Dr Lee]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his question and I welcome him back to the House. It is good to see him here, having had a good relationship with him before. Yes, the women’s justice system is a classic example of where there is scope to devolve responsibility and indeed funds. North-west England, a part of which he used to represent, has had a whole-system approach to funding over the past year or two, so that we can try to build a system in which women can be treated holistically and in which the team understands each woman’s home, situation, partners and relationships, so that it can bear down on the number of people who are locked up. In the strategy that will be delivered before the end of the year, I hope to outline in more detail what I want to do in north-west England.

[Robert Jenrick (Newark) (Con)]

Last November, the Department outlined in its White Paper probably the most comprehensive plan for improving our prisons for a generation. Some items—a minority of them—require primary legislation. I would like to see that brought forward in due course, particularly with regard to changing the statutory definition of the purpose of a prison to include rehabilitation and reform. However, the vast majority of items do not require such legislation, so will the Minister confirm that his Department will continue to implement the White Paper in full?

[Dr Lee]

My hon. Friend is very informed on this matter. Yes, he is right: the great majority of the reform package that was announced last year can be delivered without any further legislation. As I have said three times, we have not ruled out primary legislation in this area in the near future.

[David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)]

By what date does the Minister expect the first people to enter the new units that he has announced for the north and the south? Will he update the Justice Committee on the objectives that he has set for improving the situation, and will he agree to look again at the recommendations of Lord Toby Harris, to which the Government did not agree when they were produced early last year?

[Dr Lee]

I think the right hon. Gentleman is referring to the secure schools. We are committed to opening one in September 2019. There is a possibility that it could be earlier, but it depends on finding the appropriate site; as Members can imagine, these sites have to be secure. We are working extremely hard and are in negotiations with various agencies. The Mayor’s Office for Policing and Crime is particularly interested in assisting us on this. When we know about the locations, we can be a bit clearer about the delivery date.

On the wider question, which I think is about the state of the youth justice system, he can probably tell that I think we need to move towards a different system of how we lock up young people. Sadly, we recognise that some young people will need to be locked up—we have a very small uptick in some serious sexual crimes at the moment—but the environment, the staffing and the manner in which we do so must change. This report confirms what we already knew, and my intention is to work hard to bring forward a plan so that in the future—in the next 10 years—we can get to a situation in which our young people are not only safe and secure, but properly rehabilitated.

[Wendy Morton (Aldridge-Brownhills) (Con)]

I welcome the additional £2 million that this Government have invested in providing handheld mobile detectors and portable detection poles to every prison to root out the mobile phones that facilitate so many problems. Does my hon. Friend agree that we need to continue monitoring this issue and to consider what more can be done in this area?

[Dr Lee]

Yes. We have made some real progress; we are stopping thousands of mobile phones getting into our prisons. We are working extremely hard to stop the use of drones and to block the use of mobile phone signals over prisons. Things are not perfect; we have not finished this work, but we are continuing to press hard, because it would be fantastic to have a mobile phone and drone-free prison network.

[Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab)]

I look forward to the strategy for women offenders that the Minister said he would introduce later this year. He will know that last year, 30% of women in custody self-harmed, and 12 women killed themselves in prison—the highest level since 2004. In reviewing the estate for women, will he take the opportunity, once and for all, to take on board the recommendations of Baroness Jean Corston? Women who need to be in custody should be placed not in prisons far from their families, but in small, secure community units. There is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to do this. Please will the Minister take it?

[Dr Lee]

The Corston report was one of the first things I read when I was appointed to this role in July 2016, and it makes a persuasive case. There is an issue about where some women should be held. I am not completely convinced that we can go down the path of all women being held in community provision, in residential women’s centres. However, I am persuaded that we can reduce the number of women we are locking up. This will be based primarily on the way that we deliver community provision, and on mental health care before, during and after prison.

I have met a number of women in prison, the majority of whom have displayed scars of self-harm. As the hon. Lady might know, I am a doctor and I observe these things, and it is quite distressing to see this. To deal with the problem, we need to change the environment in which these women are held and to get their mental health services improved. Those are my two priorities, and I hope that the hon. Lady will be reassured that the strategy, which will be delivered by the end of this year, will get things right.

[Mims Davies (Eastleigh) (Con)]

Listening to parents of young offenders in my constituency surgeries has been eye-opening, as is listening to those working in Winchester Prison, who have seen what happens to people who have never got out of the prison system. I welcome the focus on dealing with the growing level of violence and youth justice. It is vital that we look at those issues individually and at the outcomes. How will this new unit help to ensure that the recommendations are followed?

[Dr Lee]

The unit to which my hon. Friend refers has been set up by the Department to ensure that the recommendations are followed. I gather that this is the first time that such a unit has been created. With regard to youth justice and to women’s justice, the key is to build a network over time—it will take a long time—that allows people to be held closer to home, so that families, and mothers in particular, can stay in contact with their children. That is our intention. I have mapped out the country with regard to women’s justice and youth justice to ensure that what we bring forward fits the framework, so that we can deliver time in prison closer to home for women and young people.

[Alex Chalk (Cheltenham) (Con)]

There is a grave situation in our prisons, and the Minister is being typically frank in acknowledging that. One problem is the large cohort of prisoners languishing on indeterminate sentences for public protection. Will the Minister confirm that the Government are committed to getting that number down as quickly as possible?

[Dr Lee]

That has been a long-running issue in the prison system, and the answer to my hon. Friend’s question is yes.

[Michael Tomlinson (Mid Dorset and North Poole) (Con)]

Reoffending rates remain stubbornly high, especially for young offenders, with nearly seven out of 10 who are sent to prison going on to reoffend on release. We know that that is to do with the conditions and the environment in our prisons and young offender institutions, but what more can be done to ensure effective rehabilitation, especially for our young people?

[Dr Lee]

The recidivism rate in the youth estate is not acceptable, nor is the environment in which young people are being held. In some institutions, they are being locked up for too long, which is primarily to do with the safety and security of the institution. That needs to change. There are programmes in place—I have mentioned one already, with Saracens and other sports teams—that are showing evidence of reducing recidivism rates. I am determined to change the curriculum being delivered in the youth estate. People need to spend more time outside, on sport, for example. If we do that, we will achieve what my hon. Friend wants us to achieve. By early next year, I plan on bringing out a review of the criminal justice system and sport, particularly in the youth justice system. Its recommendations will be interesting to see.

Oral Answers to Questions

Phillip Lee Excerpts

Tuesday 25th April 2017 Commons Chamber

[Pat Glass (North West Durham) (Lab)]

16. For what reasons the Government have not responded to the findings of the European Parliament’s Committee on Petitions in December 2014 relating to the treatment of Cammell Laird strikers in 1984.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Dr Phillip Lee)]

I believe the question refers to petition number 1961/2013 by Edward Marnell, on behalf of Cammell Laird strikers, on unjust treatment of Cammell Laird strikers. I welcome the questions and recognise the hard work and dedication of the hon. Members involved in this. Industrial relations and how they were historically dealt with are not a matter for the Ministry of Justice, and as such it would be inappropriate for me to comment. A conviction and/or sentence can be challenged by way of appeal. Once the appeal route has been exhausted it is possible to apply to the Criminal Cases Review Commission.

[Ms Angela Eagle]

In 1984, workers at Cammell Laird’s shipyard took official strike action over job losses just as the Thatcher Government were trying to privatise British shipbuilders. They were dismissed, jailed in a category A prison for 30 days, and lost their redundancy and pension rights. The Minister has tried to give us a technical answer today, but will he now undertake to release all the documents relating to the decision to prosecute and to the severity of the sentence so that this clear miscarriage of justice can finally be put right?

[Dr Lee]

I thank the hon. Lady for her question. Of course I am sympathetic to the case and to the individuals affected by it, but as I said, the Criminal Cases Review Commission has the power to review and investigate possible miscarriages of justice in England and Wales and Northern Ireland. Where there is a real possibility that the conviction or sentence will not be upheld, the commission can refer the case to the appropriate court, which will treat the referral as a new appeal.

[Jim McMahon]

Ten Cammell Laird workers and one apprentice have died since those events without the answers to why the decisions were taken to imprison them and who took those decisions. Surely it is now time to listen to calls from family members and the GMB trade union to do the right thing by having a proper inquiry and publishing the information that the Government have access to. What is there to hide?

[Dr Lee]

This is clearly a difficult case for the people concerned. As I said, when a conviction is subsequently quashed, compensation can be sought by an application to the miscarriages of justice applications service. I am not in a position to comment on whether a future Government should engage in an inquiry, but I assure the hon. Gentleman that I will look at this case further if I am returned to this role after the election.

[Pat Glass]

This is the last time that I will speak in this House. Therefore, I was keen that it should be a really important question. This was something I championed when I was the shadow Europe Minister, and I was delighted when the European Union joined the GMB and the Cammell Laird workers in demanding the release of Government evidence and papers. This is about papers that the Government hold. I hope the Minister will respect the fact that this is my last time speaking in the House by giving me a proper answer, not the fob-off that we have had so far. Will he commit to releasing the papers that the Government hold and putting an end to one of the most shameful episodes in British industrial relations?

[Dr Lee]

The hon. Lady has represented a beautiful part of the country, in which I have some family roots. I am sure that the Prime Minister, as a former candidate in that constituency, would agree with me about that. This case is clearly emotive, judging by the responses on the Opposition Benches. As I have said, I will look at the situation once again if I am returned to this position after the election. I will not make any commitments this side of an election, but I fully recognise the sensitivity of the case, its emotive nature and the individual people involved.

[Richard Burgon (Leeds East) (Lab)]

GMB union research points towards state interference in the Cammell Laird industrial dispute, yet the picture remains incomplete because of withheld documents, as we have heard. That era of Conservative government is becoming defined by suspicion of institutional interference and state wrongdoing. We know the names: Hillsborough, Orgreave and Cammell Laird. If that interference is extended to the prosecution of those trade unionists, do they not have the right to know?

[Dr Lee]

I do not share such a jaundiced view of the Conservative Government of the 1980s. As I have said repeatedly, I will look at this case again once we are outside of purdah and once we are returned. I hope and expect a Conservative Government to be returned in a few weeks’ time, and I promise to look at this case again in detail then.

[Mr Speaker]

As this is the last week of questions, I am especially keen to try to get through the Order Paper. I appeal to colleagues to help each other to achieve that objective.

--- Later in debate ---

[Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab)]

21. What steps she is taking to review mental health provision in prisons.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Dr Phillip Lee)]

Prisoners are more likely to have mental health problems than the broader population. We are looking at custody and community for improving the mental health offering. We are looking at a community protocol to be followed and enhancing custodial mental health services.

[Kelvin Hopkins]

There were 119 prison suicides in 2016—an increase of 32% on the previous year—and cases of self-harm were up by 19%, at more than 10,000. Does the Minister agree that these are appalling statistics? What are the Government going to do to address this human misery?

[Dr Lee]

Each and every one of those cases is a human tragedy, and I have looked at a large number of them in detail. Indeed, last week I was at HMP Downview, a women’s prison at which a suicide took place. We are investing in better healthcare facilities at that prison, and I am also looking at access to secure accommodation across the country, because that might well be an issue.

[Mr Andrew Turner (Isle of Wight) (Con)]

22. What steps she is taking to tackle religious radicalisation in prisons.

--- Later in debate ---

[Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab)]

23. What assessment she has made of the effectiveness of women’s centres in reducing reoffending; and if she will make a statement.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Dr Phillip Lee)]

The data on women’s centres are quite mixed. I am a strong advocate of the benefits of women’s centres in the community. On reoffending rates, the figures are somewhat mixed across the county. We continue to look at the situation closely to find out exactly what works about those women’s centres to reduce reoffending.

[Fiona Mactaggart]

But is it not a fact that most women in prison are extremely vulnerable and have been victims themselves, including of domestic abuse, addiction and mental health problems, and that women’s centres actually deal with the whole problem? I was a Home Office Minister who helped to persuade Baroness Corston to produce her excellent report, and the reason why we did that was the number of women who were killing themselves in jail. The Government are planning new women’s jails, but more women will murder themselves—we are at a record level. How is the Minister going to stop that happening without investing in women’s centres?

[Dr Lee]

I thank the right hon. Lady for her question. I should have wished her the best of luck as she stands down at the election. She represents a town that I know very well, and I also know that she is a particularly popular Member of Parliament.

The building of the prisons should not be interpreted as increasing the number of places to lock women up in—that should be clear. On women’s centres, I agree that women often have very complex problems, and that is a reason why I, for one, am trying to increase the number of women’s centres in the country. As the right hon. Lady has rightly said, bringing everything under the same roof can really help those women to make the right turn in life, away from crime.

[Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)]

T1. If she will make a statement on her departmental responsibilities.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Speaker]

I will say in the hon. Lady’s defence that there were probably a number of semi-colons in there, but I accept that this is a very important matter.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Dr Phillip Lee)]

This case is particularly emotive and has been in the media. As I understand it, clinicians at Great Ormond Street have made a judgment on this case. I think that that should be respected.

[Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD)]

Knowing the huge cross-party support for better justice for victims of criminal driving, will the Minister today commit to bring in the legislation that has been promised before the end of this year if the Government are re-elected?

Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors: Property Act Receiverships

Phillip Lee Excerpts

Tuesday 18th April 2017 Westminster Hall

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Dr Phillip Lee)]

It is of course a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hollobone. I congratulate the hon. Member for Cardiff Central (Jo Stevens) on bringing the important topic of the regulation of Law of Property Act receivers back to the Chamber, and I congratulate other hon. Members on their contributions. This debate was postponed from March the 22nd because of the dreadful events on that day, and I am sure that I speak for everyone in the Chamber when I say that our thoughts are with the victims’ families even now.

This debate follows on from a debate that the hon. Member for Cardiff Central secured in September 2015 relating to concerns raised by one of her constituents, Mr Kash Shabir, about the appointment of fixed charge receivers by Lloyds bank and the conduct of the individual appointed. I understand that since then there have been separate investigations by the Serious Fraud Office and the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors into the treatment of her constituent by Lloyds Banking Group and Alder King, the firm of chartered surveyors used by the bank, but no further action has been taken against those investigated. She is dissatisfied with that outcome and, as a result, with the current regulation of LPA receivers. Law of Property Act receivers are also referred to as “receivers of rent” and “fixed charge receivers”. I will refer to them simply as “receivers”.

The Act in question is the Law of Property Act 1925, the key provisions of which in relation to receivers are sections 101, 109 and 110, which define the relationship of the receiver with the mortgagor and the mortgagee and set out the powers of the receiver. However, the Act provides that those provisions may be varied or extended by the mortgage agreement, and most modern mortgage deeds contain express provisions that replace or supplement the statutory provisions. The relationship of the mortgagor, mortgagee and receiver is therefore, as a general rule, governed by the contract creating the security for the agreed finance, not by the default provisions in statute. The terms of agreements vary from case to case but are likely to require the borrower to allow a person appointed by the lender to take over the management of the mortgaged property when the loan is in default, usually to collect rental income for the lender to service the arrears but with the right to sell the property if necessary.

On that basis, the appointment of a receiver provides a relatively straightforward way for the lender to protect its position. The ability to do that would seem, indirectly, to help keep the cost of borrowing low and the availability of credit greater than it would otherwise be. Those are clearly desirable objectives, but giving contracting businesses the right to decide the terms of their own contracts does not mean that the receiver has carte blanche as to how he or she exercises his or her powers. Receivers are under legal obligations. They must act in good faith and use their powers for proper purposes, and although their primary duty is to the lender in securing repayment of the secured debt, they must manage the mortgaged property with due diligence and have regard to the borrower’s interests.

There will be cases where lenders and receivers do not act properly, and the hon. Member for Cardiff West—I mean the hon. Member for Cardiff Central, not Cardiff West—described circumstances in Mr Shabir’s case where questions must at least be asked. In such cases, borrowers may have the right to seek compensation by an action for damages against the lender or the receiver in respect of the wrongs alleged to have been committed. Determining the rights and wrongs of such cases is a matter for the courts, and I can only recommend that borrowers caught up in such situations should take legal advice about their rights and remedies and how best and most economically to proceed.

[Jo Stevens]

The Minister has referred to the prospect of litigation, but does he not accept that in this situation—where a small business owner has lost their entire business, has no money and is up against the might of a financial institution—it is simply not possible for them to enter litigation? That is why some alternative form of redress and a scheme is necessary.

[Dr Lee]

Of course, in a difficult situation where all of someone’s funds have been exhausted, I recognise that litigation would be a problem. It would not be appropriate for me as a Minister to comment on an individual case, but I hear what the hon. Lady says and will take away her suggestions.

[Kevin Brennan]

The Minister mentioned Cardiff West, which is my constituency; my hon. Friend’s constituency is Cardiff Central. The point is not that we are discussing an individual case but that Members are trying to describe a systemic problem that exists in all our constituencies across the country. In many cases, as I outlined, constituents are unable to reveal in full in public what they have been through because of confidentiality agreements. As a Minister, does he not see the need for the Government to consider action along the lines suggested by my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff Central (Jo Stevens) as a result of the systemic concern that Members are expressing?

[Dr Lee]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. In the particular case that the hon. Member for Cardiff Central raised, a series of investigations have not uncovered any wrongdoing. The Government are listening in terms of the problem vis-à-vis small, medium and larger enterprises that other Members raised, and we will be taking that away, but as things stand, we have found no evidence of anything untoward being done by any of these organisations.

Private law actions are one type of remedy, but they do not preclude the question of whether there should also be regulation of other kinds. Receivership is not specifically regulated. It is not subject to insolvency regulation. Receivers are, however, generally members of professional organisations with regulatory functions, and they will be subject to the regulatory rules applied by their professional body.

Most receivers are likely to be members of the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors. RICS was established by royal charter in 1868 and is independent of Government. To protect consumers and to maintain and develop the standing of the profession at home and internationally, RICS sets professional standards for its members and takes disciplinary action against them for breaches of its rules. RICS’s regulatory regime is governed by an independent regulatory board, which has a majority of non-surveyor members. RICS has recently announced new rules to deal with conflicts of interest that will be introduced early next year. Other receivers belong to the Insolvency Practitioners Association, which also has regulatory powers.

Over the years, RICS and the IPA have both responded to concerns that there are general issues that need to be addressed in the field of receivership. In 1999, they entered into a memorandum of understanding relating to a voluntary registration scheme for receivers to provide a system of voluntary regulation against agreed standards. The memorandum was updated in 2012 and 2015.

Some 200 receivers are also members of the Association of Property and Fixed Charge Receivers, also known as the Non-Administrative Receivers Association. It is a relatively recently formed body. It aims to represent the interests of receivers and to promote better standards. Unlike RICS and the IPA, it is not a regulatory body. NARA, RICS and the IPA are jointly reviewing the professional practice standards underpinning the work of their members as receivers. The review is expected to include a public consultation, which will consider the degree of independence required from the lender and the borrower in receivership appointments. The new scheme should strengthen the self-regulatory regime.

Receivers are appointed only where a lender has concerns about the value of its loan. The borrower may not agree with the lender’s action, but should have been aware of the possibility that a receiver might be appointed in certain circumstances from the outset. One of the potential problems is that the receiver may face a conflict of interest. Conflicts arise in many areas of professional practice and are generally successfully dealt with in sensible and proportionate ways. Sometimes professional businesses have to turn down business opportunities because they are conflicted and the conflict cannot otherwise properly be managed. Sometimes of course the right action is not taken and legal and regulatory action may follow against those who got it wrong.

The hon. Member for Cardiff Central has identified cases where things may have gone wrong. I am not in a position to say whether there were unacceptable or improperly managed conflicts of interest that ought not to have been permitted to occur in Mr Shabir’s case. That is a matter for the courts and the appropriate authorities in the light of the law and relevant regulatory rules. We should also remember when considering Mr Shabir’s case and others like it that receivership has existed for many years and has during that time presumably worked well in many cases. The independent regulation of receivers through their professional bodies is also long-established and is subject to ongoing review with the objective of improving standards and better protecting consumers.

A number of points were made by hon. Members during the debate. I will respond to them as best I can, but insolvency, financial services regulation and the professional regulation of surveyors are not matters for which the Ministry of Justice is responsible. I will, however, ensure that the points raised on those topics by the hon. Member for Cardiff Central and other hon. Members during our debate are passed on to the appropriate Departments.

The hon. Member for Cardiff Central asked whether RICS has been doing its job. The Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors has investigated the allegations made by Mr Shabir and has not found evidence of misconduct. It has also offered to speak with the hon. Lady to discuss her concerns, but says that it cannot reopen its investigation without new evidence. The Serious Fraud Office carried out an investigation and decided there was insufficient evidence to meet its criteria for prosecution.

The hon. Lady also asked why the Government have not acted against Lloyds. The Government believe that financial service providers must be properly regulated, but the case for more or different regulation must be made before the present system is changed. The Financial Conduct Authority is considering matters relevant to the regulation of the provision of financial services to small and medium-sized enterprises. The Government will consider the FCA report when it is published. It would not be appropriate for the Government to comment further while the process is ongoing.

The Opposition Front-Bench spokesman, the hon. Member for Sefton Central (Bill Esterson) asked a question about wider economic and regulatory issues. I will refer all the questions regarding the working of the economy to the Treasury for consideration. The FCA is still working on the issues raised in the Tomlinson report. As I have said already, it would not be appropriate to anticipate its investigations and the report.

In conclusion, I acknowledge the vigour and tenacity with which the hon. Member for Cardiff Central has campaigned on behalf of Mr Shabir and others. I appreciate the concerns she has raised and the very difficult situations that have been created for her constituent and others by the financial crisis of 2008-09. I cannot intervene in specific cases or commit the Government to any particular action to change the legal or regulatory framework relating to receivers. I can, however, promise that the Ministry of Justice will continue to keep the issues for which it is responsible relating to receivers under review and pass on concerns raised to other Government Departments as necessary.

Draft Judicial Pensions (Fee-Paid Judges) Regulations 2017 Draft Judicial Pensions (Amendment) Regulations 2017 Draft Judicial Pensions (Additional Voluntary Contributions) Regulations 2017

Phillip Lee Excerpts

Monday 27th March 2017 General Committees

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Dr Phillip Lee)]

I beg to move,

That the Committee has considered the draft Judicial Pensions (Fee-Paid Judges) Regulations 2017.

[The Chair]

With this it will be convenient to consider the draft Judicial Pensions (Amendment) Regulations 2017 and the draft Judicial Pensions (Additional Voluntary Contributions) Regulations 2017.

[Dr Lee]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Bailey. I will set out the purpose of each of the draft regulations in turn.

The draft fee-paid judges regulations will establish a pension scheme for eligible fee-paid judges that mirrors the existing pension scheme for salaried judges established by the Judicial Pensions and Retirement Act 1993. This is required following the court’s decision in the case of O’Brien v. Ministry of Justice. The draft regulations will make provision for a pension scheme for people who have held eligible fee-paid judicial office in the period between 7 April 2000 and 31 March 2015. They will also establish the fee-paid judicial added voluntary contributions scheme, the fee-paid added years scheme and the fee-paid judicial added surviving adult’s pension scheme, enabling members of the principal scheme to pay voluntary contributions towards the costs of additional benefits under one or more of these additional schemes.

Following the case of O’Brien v. Ministry of Justice and subsequent court decisions, it is now established law that a lack of pension and other specified benefits amounted to less favourable treatment of some fee-paid judicial office holders than of salaried judges doing the same or broadly similar work, which is contrary to the part-time work directive. The Ministry of Justice therefore made the commitment to implement a pension scheme for eligible fee-paid judges. We have already honoured that commitment for future service, subject to transitional protection, by introducing the Judicial Pensions Regulations 2015. However, another pension scheme is also required as the remedy in respect of reckonable fee-paid service from 7 April 2000—the date when the part-time work directive ought to have been transposed into UK law. The power to create such a fee-paid pension scheme was created by section 78 of the Pension Schemes Act 2015, which inserted a new section 18A into the Judicial Pensions and Retirement Act 1993.

The Ministry of Justice carried out a detailed public consultation on the draft fee-paid judges regulations, following which they were modified to take account of responses and as part of our own review. Our response to the consultation was published on 27 February alongside the final draft regulations.

The draft amendment regulations will amend the Judicial Pensions Regulations 2015 in a number of ways. They include provisions to take account of the creation of the fee-paid judicial pension scheme and to ensure parity of treatment between individuals with entitlement in the existing Judicial Pensions and Retirement Act 1993 scheme and those with entitlements under the fee-paid scheme in respect of their pension entitlements under the 2015 regulations. In addition, we are taking the opportunity to amend the 2015 regulations to correct a drafting error in regulation 1(3); to enable the Lord Chancellor to determine the eligibility of particular Scottish fee-paid judicial office holders to join the pension scheme created by the 2015 regulations; to remove negligence as a basis for forfeiture or set-off; to make a correction to the definition of index adjustment for revaluation purposes; and to apply full and tapering protection to those judges who were in fee-paid office on 31 March 2012 but who have subsequently been appointed to salaried office. The 2015 regulations were made under the Public Service Pensions Act 2013 to create a career-average pension scheme for judicial office holders as part of the Government’s wider reform of public service pensions. This is the first time they have been amended.

The draft additional voluntary contributions regulations will establish a judicial additional voluntary contributions scheme—a money purchase scheme that enables its members to make contributions within a range of investment options, in addition to their contributions to the 2015 judicial pension scheme. The AVC scheme is to be managed by the Lord Chancellor, and the Judicial Pension Board will oversee the governance.

The 2015 judicial pension scheme was established on 1 April 2015, in response to the Public Service Pensions Act 2013. The 2015 scheme applies to both fee-paid and salaried judicial officeholders. The existing judicial pension schemes provide a facility to contribute to a money purchase pension scheme. These AVC regulations are now providing the same facility to members of the 2015 scheme. That includes the pension flexibilities contained in the Taxation of Pensions Act 2014 and the Pension Schemes Act 2015.

In additional to the AVC regulations, we are also making separate amendments to the additional voluntary contributions scheme, established under the older judicial pension scheme, made by the Judicial Pensions and Retirement Act 1993. We are doing so via a separate set of regulations that also give effect to the pension flexibilities to enable a consistent approach.

These three sets of regulations are necessary to ensure, first, that the fee-paid judicial pension scheme regulations establish a legal remedy to provide eligible fee-paid judges with pension benefits equivalent to their salaried comparators. Secondly, the amendment regulations make provision for a range of amendments to the 2015 judicial pension scheme. Thirdly, the additional voluntary contributions regulations are being introduced to honour the Department’s commitment to provide that facility to members of the 2015 judicial pension scheme.

I hope the Committee will welcome these regulations, which make important provision for judicial pensions, in respect of the Government’s legal obligations to meet outstanding commitments and of ensuring that all the necessary arrangements are in place for a consistent approach to the relevant provisions across the judicial pension schemes. I therefore commend the three draft regulations to the Committee.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dr Lee]

We have had an interesting debate, and I thank the Committee for the points that have been made.

I am rather flattered that my right hon. Friend the Member for Wantage attends my Statutory Instrument Committees with such diligence and asks such informed questions. I wish I had taken such an interest in his when he was a Minister. On his comments about the European convention on human rights, the Department believes it is right to make the regulations now to ensure that the fee-paid judiciary have access to a judicial pension scheme. The Ministry of Justice has appealed against the decision in McCloud, but if it is ultimately unsuccessful, steps will be taken to remove the incompatibility. I will write to my right hon. Friend with a detailed response to his long list of questions so that he can satisfy himself that these regulations are the right thing to do.

As I have explained, the changes being introduced through these regulations are necessary to honour the Government’s commitment to implement a suitable pension scheme for eligible fee-paid judges. At the same time, we are also taking the opportunity to make other necessary changes, both to amend the existing 2015 judicial pension scheme and to create an additional voluntary contributions scheme. I hope these provisions will be welcomed by those to whom they apply. I commend the regulations to the Committee.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved,

That the Committee has considered the draft Judicial Pensions (Fee-Paid Judges) Regulations 2017.

Draft Judicial Pensions (Amendment) Regulations 2017

Resolved,

That the Committee has considered the draft Judicial Pensions (Amendment) Regulations 2017.—(Dr Lee.)

Draft Judicial Pensions (Additional Voluntary Contributions) Regulations 2017

Resolved,

That the Committee has considered the draft Judicial Pensions (Additional Voluntary Contributions) Regulations 2017.—(Dr Lee.)

draft Public Guardian (Fees, etc.) (Amendment) regulations 2017

Phillip Lee Excerpts

Tuesday 21st March 2017 General Committees

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Dr Phillip Lee)]

I beg to move,

That the Committee has considered the draft Public Guardian (Fees, etc.) (Amendment) Regulations 2017.

It is an honour to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Flello. The regulations apply to England and Wales and serve to reduce the fee for registering enduring and lasting powers of attorney. The current fee is £110 and it will be reduced to £82. The resubmission fee, paid when an application has to be resubmitted because of an error in the original application, will be reduced to £41 from £55. If Parliament agrees, we intend the changes to take effect on 1 April.

The new fee will be an enhanced fee, allowing us to cover the full cost of registering a power of attorney as well as to ensure the efficient and effective discharge of the Public Guardian’s functions. The power to charge an enhanced fee is contained in section 180 of the Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Act 2014.

There are currently more than 2 million powers of attorney registered, which comprise both lasting powers of attorney and their predecessor, enduring powers of attorney, which remain valid and may still be registered. In October 2017 we will celebrate 10 years since lasting powers of attorney were introduced. In that time, the Office of the Public Guardian, the body responsible for maintaining a register of powers of attorney, has registered nearly 2.5 million LPAs. The high uptake of lasting powers of attorney is an indication of the success of the Mental Capacity Act 2005. They allow individuals to plan ahead for a time when they may lack capacity to make decisions for themselves and appoint someone they trust to make those decisions for them.

It is positive that so many more people are making powers of attorney, but that has led to a position where the income we receive from fees charged exceeds the cost of delivering the service. A detailed review of power of attorney fees together with an improved forecasting model for volumes of applications, taking into account the ageing demographic and the rise in dementia, has enabled us to take decisive action to reduce fees and bring them closer to the cost of providing the service.

As many more people have been registering LPAs in recent years, increased volumes coupled with greater efficiencies in processing applications have resulted in fees being charged above the operational cost of delivering the service without our having exercised the power provided by legislation to allow us to do that. Clearly, that situation must be remedied, which is what the regulations seek to do.

Furthermore, alongside the reduction in fee, we will also introduce a scheme for refunding a portion of the fee to customers who may have paid more than they should. Full details of the scheme will be announced in due course. We will take such steps as are necessary to ensure that people are made aware of and receive the refunds to which they are entitled.

The Government’s aim is to ensure that the Public Guardian’s functions are properly resourced. We consider that an enhanced fee will go towards funding vital wider functions carried out by the Office of the Public Guardian. The enhanced fee will allow the Public Guardian to ensure that those who cannot afford to pay still have access to the key services offered by the Office of the Public Guardian.

[John Howell (Henley) (Con)]

How many people does the Minister estimate are likely to be affected?

[Dr Lee]

I do not have the number to hand. As I said, 2.5 million LPAs have been granted. The number will be less than that, but I am happy to get back to my hon. Friend with the exact figure.

The fee will also contribute to the cost of the Public Guardian’s safeguarding activities, including the annual cost of supervising deputies appointed by the court to manage the affairs of people who have lost capacity to do so for themselves. I commend the regulations to the Committee.

[The Chair]

Before I call the Opposition spokesman, I remind Members that, if they wish to take part in the debate, they should rise in their place to ensure that they catch my eye.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dr Lee]

I thank hon. Members for their numerous questions. I view the establishment of the Office of the Public Guardian by the Labour Government 10 years ago as an indication of a civilised society. We recognise that, with increasing ageing and the consequent increase in dementia and various other ailments that impair function, we, as individuals, will have to take some really challenging decisions about advance directives on care and, indeed, our financial affairs. The Department was found to have failed—this was a shared mistake of Labour and Conservative Governments—in not predicting that society would age. In response to such an obvious and simplistic mistake, I have asked the Department to assure me that a similar situation is not developing with other Ministry of Justice fees.

To answer the question about awareness and uptake, the fact that 2.5 million LPAs have been taken out is an indication that people are aware of the provision. Despite that success, there was a campaign in 2015 to make people more aware. The details about refunds will be on the website and the Office of the Public Guardian will be responsible for administering the scheme. Those who are entitled to claim will be able to do so. We have estimated how much that might cost and expect to be in a position to fund it.

[Ms Stuart]

Thinking back to personal circumstances of making arrangements for someone, that member of my family is unlikely to go on the Office of the Public Guardian’s website to check whether the new arrangements mean that she is entitled to a refund. Surely the Office of the Public Guardian could write to affected individuals—the data must be available. Is there a practical approach?

[Dr Lee]

Yes, there is a practical approach, but in those situations, other family members are often aware of such a directive and can access the website, but I am happy to look at further details.

[Mr Vaizey]

In my previous role as Minister for telecommunications, I was aware of how Government policy could have an impact on nuisance calls. Have the Government evaluated whether alerting people to the need to get a refund might encourage spurious companies to be set up to encourage people, by cold calling the vulnerable, to make such claims?

[Dr Lee]

My right hon. Friend makes a decent point. I take note of it and will pass it on to the relevant officials to ensure that such abuse does not ensue.

On timing and the 21 days, I was made aware of the issue shortly after becoming a Minister and we have been working extremely hard on finding the best way of putting in place a system for refunding when necessary. We have acted swiftly and I am not sure that the point about the 21 days is particularly relevant. The statutory instrument will come into force on 1 April, which means that it is unlikely that there will be 21 days between its making and coming into force. It is important for the lower fee to be brought into force as quickly as possible. In addition, the Department does not consider that the regulations significantly diminish rights, impose significantly more onerous new duties or require the adoption of different patterns of behaviour.

Clearly, there has been a rather basic error in the long-term projection analysis of demand in an ageing society. The accounting officer has reassured me that the forecasting model has been properly reviewed. Indeed, from now on, there will be an annual review of all the figures. The issue has arisen every year for four to five years and I have been reassured that that will not be the case in future.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Wantage and the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Edgbaston are right that communicating the change is important. We will do our very best to ensure that everyone knows that this has happened and that they can seek a refund when appropriate.

We have had an interesting debate. I thank members of the Committee for the points that have been made. The changes that the regulations introduce will bring about a welcome reduction in the fee for registering a power of attorney. I am sure we all agree that that is an important tool, of which we would encourage people to take advantage, while balancing that with the need to fund the important functions of the Public Guardian. I hope that the Committee will support the regulations.

Question put and agreed to.

Oral Answers to Questions

Phillip Lee Excerpts

Tuesday 7th March 2017 Commons Chamber

[Mr David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con)]

2. What progress her Department has made on reforming the youth justice system.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Dr Phillip Lee)]

On 24 February, we announced changes to improve governance of the youth justice system. We are creating a new youth custody service headed by a dedicated, experienced director who will lead on operational delivery, and we have appointed Charlie Taylor as the new chair of the Youth Justice Board.

[Mr Burrowes]

Young people in custody now have more complex needs, and more than three quarters of them have been excluded from school. How will we put high-quality education at the heart of the youth justice system, so that young people can have a second chance of getting the skills they need to break the cycle of reoffending?

[Dr Lee]

My hon. Friend is, as ever, spot on with regards to the importance of education. We are bringing forward plans on secure schools, and we are going to put health and education at the centre of that. I strongly believe that when people leave the youth justice system, they should be fit in body, fit in mind and fit to play a positive part in society.

[Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)]

Has the Minister had a chance to see this morning’s damning report on G4S’s performance at Oakhill training centre? Has he yet made a decision on whether he plans to allow G4S to flog off the centre to an American buyer?

[Dr Lee]

Yes, I have seen the report. In fact, it confirmed what I encountered myself on a recent visit to Oakhill. We are aware of the difficulties there, and we are also aware that G4S is in the process of trying to sell the youth justice arm of its business. I am keeping a close eye on that process, and rule nothing out when it comes to looking after the children and indeed the broader security of society.

[Michael Tomlinson (Mid Dorset and North Poole) (Con)]

21. I congratulate the Secretary of State on the appointment of Charlie Taylor as the new chairman of the Youth Justice Board. I warmly welcome the new figures showing that fewer young people than ever are entering the youth justice system in the first place, but reoffending rates remain stubbornly high, especially for those young people sentenced to a period in custody. What more can the Minister do to improve those rates and stop our young people reoffending?

[Dr Lee]

As I said to my hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, Southgate (Mr Burrowes), the Government strongly believe that we need to create an environment in which young people can learn and be rehabilitated, so that they can play a more positive part in society. Our plans for secure schools—one in the north-west of England and one in the south-east of England—will build on that in the future.

[Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab)]

Is overcrowding or understaffing the biggest problem in our youth justice system?

[Dr Lee]

No, it is not. [Interruption.] The problem is not overcrowding. There are some issues around staffing, which is why we have brought forward our plans on creating a new role for the youth justice officer. Those individuals are going to be attracted to work specifically with children. We are also developing the youth custody service as part of our plans around Her Majesty’s Prison and Probation Service, because we believe that there should be a distinct service to deal with children in the criminal justice system.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

Youth reoffending rates are among the highest of all prisoners, and we have just heard that reoffending costs this country a total of £15 billion a year. Surely the obvious answer is to make sure that all prisoners serve their time in jail in full before they are released out into the public.

[Dr Lee]

Specifically in the youth justice system, I believe that the most important thing is to ensure that when young people are in custody, we take every opportunity to treat them if they have mental health problems and to provide the necessary education for future employment prospects, so that when they leave the institution, they are less likely to reoffend.

[Richard Burgon (Leeds East) (Lab)]

It has been reported that Working Links, an outsourcing company criticised for its handling of probation services, including for failures in Wales and the south-west, is the company that it is in talks to buy Oakhill secure training centre from G4S. Is it part of the Justice Secretary’s reforms to youth justice to allow private companies with no experience in youth justice to run our youth custody centres?

[Dr Lee]

It is not about ruling out whether private or public organisations should provide care in the youth justice system. I point out to the hon. Gentleman that the original contract for Oakhill was signed in 2005, and the terms of the contract were set then.

[John Pugh (Southport) (LD)]

3. What assessment the Government have made of the effect of recent changes in the discount rate for compensation for accident victims on the level of insurance premiums.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD)]

6. What steps she is taking to ensure that prisoners receive appropriate treatment for mental health problems.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Dr Phillip Lee)]

Prisoners are far more likely to suffer from mental health issues than the general population. From April, we will introduce a co-commissioning approach into prisons in England, with governors making decisions about prison healthcare alongside local NHS commissioners. As I am sure the right hon. Gentleman knows, these matters are devolved in Scotland.

[Mr Carmichael]

Indeed, although the Howard League tells us that 2016 was the worst year ever recorded for suicides in prison, with one prisoner every three days across the UK taking his or her life. Does the Minister accept that the earliest diagnosis— and the best diagnosis—will not make much difference if we continue to house prisoners in overcrowded prisons, with the most vulnerable being locked up 23 hours a day?

[Dr Lee]

Each of those cases is a tragedy and my condolences go to the family concerned. The right hon. Gentleman is right that it is important to hold prisoners in appropriate circumstances. We are working hard to improve the mental health training of staff, and we are in lengthy discussions with the Department of Health about the broader provision of mental health care.

[James Duddridge (Rochford and Southend East) (Con)]

18. What analysis has the Department done on people going into prison with mental health problems, as opposed to acquiring mental health problems in prison?

[Dr Lee]

We are working hard on continuity of care in the transmission of notes from the community into the custodial estate, so that we can improve our pick-up of mental health problems when prisoners arrive. There is ongoing training of staff, so that if mental health symptoms develop within prison they can be spotted and the appropriate care provided.

[Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op)]

When inmates become so acutely unwell that the prison is not equipped to care for them, they should receive appropriate treatment under the Mental Health Acts. In the outside world, this happens within 24 hours; in prisons, the guidelines recommend 14 days. An answer I received to a parliamentary question last year showed that, of 1,141 prisoners, three in four waited more than that two-week window. What action is the Secretary of State taking to rectify this urgent situation?

[Dr Lee]

The hon. Lady is right that access to secure accommodation can be challenging—not only within the prison system but within the community for those who have not committed offences, who cannot always access it within 24 hours. We are in lengthy discussions with the Department of Health on this, because access to secure accommodation in the circumstances the hon. Lady outlines is very important.

[Yasmin Qureshi (Bolton South East) (Lab)]

Last year, 2016, was the worst recorded for suicide in prisons. The Secretary of State introduced the Prisons and Courts Bill, but it contains nothing to address mental health issues. Why has the Justice Secretary missed this valuable opportunity to enshrine in law the way in which we treat prisoners with mental health problems?

[Dr Lee]

Last year’s prison White Paper contained something on healthcare, giving governors input into the commissioning of services, so that if there is an issue with mental health provision the governor can say so.

[Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con)]

7. What progress has been made on making access to affordable or pro bono legal advice more widely available.

--- Later in debate ---

[Conor McGinn (St Helens North) (Lab)]

There are reports today of children being held in solitary confinement in prisons in this country, which is shocking, immoral and probably unlawful. Surely, the Secretary of State understands that, whatever chance these young people have of turning their lives around, they will not find it if they are locked in a cell for 23 hours a day. Will she commit now to ordering an end to this practice?

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Dr Phillip Lee)]

I am aware of the reports from the Howard League. The safety and welfare of young people held in custody is our highest priority. I would stress, though, that these cases are extremely difficult. Some of these young individuals are extremely difficult to manage, and governors on the ground have to make decisions that are in the interests of the broader community in prison and the wider security of society.

[Nigel Huddleston (Mid Worcestershire) (Con)]

Given the disturbing revelations this morning relating to Facebook and the use of sexualised images of children online, are we doing enough to protect our children, online and offline?

Guardianship (Missing Persons) Bill (First sitting)

Phillip Lee Excerpts

Committee Debate: House of Commons
Tuesday 21st February 2017 Public Bill Committees

[Richard Burgon (Leeds East) (Lab)]

It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hanson. With your permission, I will make all my remarks to the Committee in this debate.

I congratulate the hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton on all the work that he has done to introduce the Bill. As he says, it fills a gap that many people are lucky enough not to be aware of. He knows better than most here that such a Bill has been a long time coming and is very welcome indeed.

I can confirm, as expected and as hon. Members will be aware, that we will not oppose the Bill. We support it, and there is strong cross-party support for filling this gap in the law. I understand that the Missing People charity, one of the main promoters of this change in the law, endorses the Bill as drafted. As has been discussed, and as hon. Members know, there is no mechanism in England and Wales to protect the property and affairs of a missing person. As we have heard, the Bill seeks to change that. The absence of such a provision has led to profound hardship for many people.

Hon. Members will recall the Westminster Hall debate in March 2016 in which hon. Members spoke passionately of the experiences of themselves and their constituents, which are relevant to the Bill. As many will remember, the hon. Member for York Outer spoke of his constituent Peter Lawrence, whose daughter Claudia Lawrence has been missing since 2009. It is a well-known case, and I understand that it was announced last month that a review of the case is to be scaled down. I know that Peter Lawrence has campaigned vigorously alongside Missing People for a change in the law for some time. My hon. Friend the Member for Neath also spoke of her personal experience of her uncle vanishing abruptly.

The anguish that those circumstances must cause to families is truly unimaginable to those who have not known the uncertainty and trauma of such a loss. The inability to manage a missing person’s property and finances can only add to that distress, anxiety and anguish. Of course, there may be dependants who require financial support, outstanding bills and obligations or mortgage payments on which families rely—it is very welcome that the hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton has mentioned the support for the Bill from the Council of Mortgage Lenders. As I have mentioned, the importance of trying to maintain some measure of order while a loved one is being traced is perhaps overlooked by the rest of society, who cannot imagine such a situation. Plainly, that needs to be corrected, which is why we welcome the Bill.

There have been faltering attempts at legislation before, so I am glad that we are now seeing real, practical progress. Hon. Members will recall that the Ministry of Justice launched a consultation in 2014, and on 23 March 2015 confirmed that the coalition Government would legislate to create the legal status of guardian of the property and affairs of a missing person. The Ministry recognised the strong support for such an advance in the law. The Justice Minister at the time, Lord Faulks, released a written statement in which he expressed a wish that legislation would follow quickly in the following Parliament.

While the expected legislation did not materialise as swiftly as people would have liked, we are pleased to see practical progress being made today. On 6 June 2016, my hon. Friend the Member for Stockport tabled an early-day motion noting the delay in progress and requesting that the Government urgently set out a timetable. However, it is the private Member’s Bill from the hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton that has brought us to this position, and we seem to be well on the way to introducing a piece of practical, useful and necessary legislation.

The hon. Gentleman has previously estimated that some 2,500 people could benefit from a law of this kind. As we have heard, it will give the courts the power to appoint a guardian to manage the property and affairs, and act on behalf, of a missing person. The Bill also proposes safeguards to ensure that that guardian is accountable and acts in the best interests of the missing person. Moreover, the Bill takes inspiration from an existing precedent in Australia, which has a legal system that shares some similarities with our own.

To reiterate, it is welcome that the House is legislating to fill the gap in the law. There has been long-standing and consistent cross-party support for legislation to address the issues. Moreover, campaigners and other interested parties, including the Council of Mortgage Lenders and the charity Missing People, support the Bill in its current form. There is therefore welcome agreement across the board on the issue. We must not drag our heels. I am glad that we have the opportunity to see the Bill progress today.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Dr Phillip Lee)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hanson. I congratulate my hon. and long-standing Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton on introducing a Bill to create the new legal status of guardian of the property and financial affairs of missing people and on presenting the case for clauses 1 to 7 to stand part of the Bill.

The Government have indicated on several occasions in recent months—not least in reply to questions from my hon. Friend and other Members from all parts of the House—that we intend to bring forward legislation on the subject as soon as parliamentary time allows. It will therefore come as no great surprise that the Government welcome the Bill and intend to support it. I also very much welcome the support of Her Majesty’s Opposition.

Nothing can cure the emotional and psychological pain caused by the sudden, unexplained disappearance of a loved one, but changes to the law can help to provide solutions to some of the practical problems faced by those left behind. Clauses 1 to 7 provide the core of a legal framework within which the best interests—in a wide sense—of the missing person can be protected and those left behind can be sustained in a way that it is reasonable to think the missing person would have approved, had he or she been present.

The clauses define when a guardian may be appointed, the terms on which he or she may be appointed and the duration of the appointment, where a person is “missing” as defined in clause 1. My hon. Friend has provided a clear explanation of the purpose of the Bill’s provisions, and I do not intend to repeat his observations. I urge the Committee to agree that clauses 1 to 7 should stand part of the Bill.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 1 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 2 to 7 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 8

Guardians and effect of guardianship order

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[The Chair]

With this it will be convenient to discuss clauses 9 to 25 and the schedule to the Bill.

[Kevin Hollinrake]

Quite simply, clauses 8 to 25 cover the guardian’s obligations, the role of the Office of the Public Guardian, the relevant courts that would supervise the proceedings, and the code of practice. On that basis, I commend the clauses to the Committee.

[Dr Lee]

I thank my hon. Friend for his explanation of clauses 8 to 25. The clauses build on the foundation laid by clauses 1 to 7 and lay out the remainder of the legal framework to which secondary legislation and codes of practice are to be added. The clauses are unified by the theme of the guardianship, but are fairly disparate in their detail.

First, the clauses deal with the obligations of the guardian and the effect of his or her dealings with third parties. In that respect, the guardian is obliged to act in what he or she reasonably believes to be the best interests of the missing person and is to be treated as the agent of the missing person. Third parties dealing with the guardian need to know where they stand, just as they do with any agent.

Clauses 8 and 11 build on the law of agency and the provisions relating to deputies in the Mental Capacity Act 2005. Clause 10 allows guardians and others to seek instructions from the court on how to act. Personal representatives and trustees have similar options. Once appointed, a guardian will be entrusted by the court with authority to act on behalf of the missing person, but circumstances may change. Clauses 12 to 15 create a system within which orders can be changed by court order or revoked, whether by court order or automatically, in the light of changing circumstances.

Guardians will be held to account by third parties under clause 11, where the guardian acts outside their authority. They will also be subject to the supervision of the Public Guardian, by virtue of clause 17. Here, too, the Bill draws on the existing legislation relating to deputies, as it does in clause 22, in relation to the issues of codes of practice, to provide guidance to guardians and others.

I welcome the inclusion of the definition of the best interests of the missing person in clause 18, particularly the provision allowing for further definition of that concept through regulations subject to the affirmative resolution procedure. None of the secondary legislation that may be created under the Bill has yet been drafted, but a memorandum on the powers has been sent to the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee in the other place. I certainly envisage that the draft legislation will be subject to consultation with stakeholders and experts.

I do not think that I need to comment on any other aspects of the Bill, save to say that I hope that all the necessary secondary legislation can be made within a year of Royal Assent, so that if the Bill is enacted, it can be brought into force in 2018. I commend clauses 8 to 25 of the Bill to the Committee.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 8 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 9 to 25 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Schedule agreed to.

Question proposed, That the Chair do report the Bill to the House.

[Kevin Hollinrake]

On a point of order, Mr Hanson. I would just like to thank a number of people. I thank our wonderful doorkeepers and Hansard reporters, all colleagues across all parties who have given up their time today and on many other occasions, the Clerks for their essential guidance, the officials from the Ministry of Justice, particularly the excellent Mr Hughes, who has been tremendous, and of course our superb Ministers, who have been so supportive. Of course, I also thank everyone connected to the Missing People organisation, which has campaigned so hard and for so long for the introduction of this legislation.

I am grateful to Members from all parts of the House and to Members of the other place who have pledged their support. I give particular thanks to my hon. Friends the Members for York Outer and for Selby and Ainsty and to the hon. Members for York Central (Rachael Maskell), for Stockport and for City of Chester, who have been so supportive and worked so hard on this issue. I was simply in the right place at the right time and have hopefully carried the baton over the last few yards. I am also very grateful to the Select Committee on Justice and the all-party group on runaway and missing children and adults for their work.

I offer my final and most important thanks to my constituents, Mr and Mrs Lawrence—Peter Lawrence is here today—who have championed the cause of guardianship, even though it can no longer help with their situation. They are, of course, the parents of Claudia Lawrence, a missing person since 18 March 2009, nearly eight years ago, her fate still unknown. As a testimony and tribute to their endeavour, their eternal hope, their endless fight for answers and justice, and their selfless commitment to help others faced with similar tragic circumstances, I very much hope that this legislation, if effected, will always be known as Claudia’s law.

Question put and agreed to.

Bill accordingly to be reported, without amendment.

Jane Harrison

Phillip Lee Excerpts

Friday 3rd February 2017 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Dr Phillip Lee)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Mitcham and Morden (Siobhain McDonagh) on securing this important debate today. I should like to express my deepest sympathies to Jane Harrison’s family. It is impossible to imagine the pain they have experienced and continue to suffer after losing Jane in such tragic circumstances. I should also like to take this opportunity to extend my deepest sympathies to Marie McCourt, who has tirelessly campaigned for a law change in memory of her daughter, Helen.

On a personal level, when considering this debate and, indeed, the private Member’s Bill introduced by the hon. Member for St Helens North (Conor McGinn), I recalled the sight of Winnie Johnson, the mother of Keith Bennett, who died never knowing where her son was buried. Indeed, her face etched with agony on every anniversary of the Moors murders stays with me. To lose a loved one in such circumstances is truly horrendous. The fact that Winnie was then denied the opportunity to give her son a proper burial is too awful even to comprehend, so I understand why the hon. Member for Mitcham and Morden has secured this debate and why the hon. Member for St Helens North is pursuing his campaign for Helen’s law.

The hon. Member for Mitcham and Morden has set out the background to the case. I must stress that, as a Justice Minister, I would not normally comment on individual cases. As should be clear, this case involves a conviction for manslaughter, not murder. I do not think it would be helpful to revisit now that conviction or to discuss the difference between what amounts to the offence of murder or manslaughter. It might be helpful, however, for me to explain the different options available when sentencing for manslaughter and the different consequences of these sentences.

Murder is the only offence that carries a mandatory life sentence. In every case where someone is convicted of murder, they will receive a life sentence. Apart from the most serious cases, which receive a whole-life order, the court will set a tariff for the offender. That means they will serve a minimum time before they are considered for release, and will be released only when the independent Parole Board considers it safe to do so.

Manslaughter, on the other hand, has a maximum penalty of a life sentence, but that sentence is discretionary, rather than mandatory. The judge can impose a life sentence, or any other sentence short of a life sentence, having considered all the factors in each case. The length of the custodial sentence imposed must reflect the culpability of the offender. In the case of manslaughter, that can vary widely given the wide range of behaviour that the offence covers. Defendants convicted of manslaughter can, and do, receive standard determinate sentences.

In contrast to a life sentence, and since the introduction of the Criminal Justice Act 2003, prisoners serving a standard determinate sentence are automatically released at the halfway point of their sentence. The remainder of the sentence is served on licence in the community. While on licence, offenders will be subject to probation supervision and the licence will include appropriate conditions. If an offender breaches those conditions, they may be recalled to prison. I stress that offenders serving standard determinate sentences are released automatically by statute and are not considered for release at the discretion of a body such as the Parole Board. It is worth noting that an offender convicted of manslaughter who is serving a determinate sentence of whatever length will not be eligible for release earlier than the halfway point of their sentence under the home detention curfew scheme.

The judiciary are of course aware of how sentences are structured when determining the appropriate sentence in a case, and explain the effect of the sentence in open court. Therefore, any offender subject to a determinate sentence will be released at a fixed point, irrespective of whether they admit their guilt or co-operate with the authorities, and their sentence will come to an end at a fixed point. There is no discretion under the law to hold them beyond the sentence that was imposed by the court. To change that would require a significant change in the law and to sentencing generally. It also raises some practical issues that I will mention briefly.

The practical issues are similar to the issues championed by the private Member’s Bill of the hon. Member for St Helens North—otherwise known as Helen’s law—in response to the murder of Helen McCourt. I stress that the Government sympathise with the calls for a Helen’s law. Along with the sentencing Minister, my hon. Friend the Member for East Surrey (Mr Gyimah), I met the hon. Member for St Helens North to discuss his private Member’s Bill earlier this week. I congratulate him on his approach during that meeting. I again express my respect and admiration for Marie McCourt, who has led the campaign for Helen’s law. I pay tribute to her commitment to the issue and her tireless work over many years. As I said earlier, any murder is horrific and no family should have to go through such a traumatic experience with the added pain of not knowing the whereabouts of their loved one and being denied the chance to lay them to rest. For that reason, the Government welcome the discussion generated by the Unlawful Killing (Recovery of Remains) Bill.

I think the hon. Member for St Helens North would be the first to accept that his Bill does not present a legally sound solution to this difficult issue. In short, it proposes to deny release to those who refuse to disclose the whereabouts of their victims’ remains. The Government recognise the honourable intentions behind this approach. There are, however, some concerns regarding how the proposed changes can be delivered—concerns regarding the legality of some of the provisions, as well as the potentially adverse effect on the families of victims if they were made aware of information disclosed by offenders. As the victims Minister, I will always represent and work hard towards delivering in the best interest of victims of crime. As such, I intend to ensure that any changes made to the current process are tailored towards delivering a just and fair outcome.

I do not want to get into any technical or legal details during this debate, but let me say that we all have to be careful not to support something that would create perverse incentives for offenders to lie about where the victim’s remains are located, to try and secure release or to further torment victims’ families. There is a risk that each and every time an offender claimed to remember where the victim’s remains had been buried, they would have to be taken seriously, which could result in them being allowed to leave prison temporarily to help authorities search for the body. In that regard, I think, once again, about Winnie Johnson. We do not want offenders creating false stories to toy with victims’ families or to create false hope. The further pain and anxiety that could be inflicted upon victims’ families as a result of this is simply unthinkable.

Additionally, while the Government have been unable to examine the Bill in detail, there are several other complex practical and legal issues arising from the proposals. These could include avoiding arbitrary sentences; being clear about the level of co-operation required and whether this needs to lead to a successful outcome; and avoiding unlawful retrospective application of provisions.

I would, however, like to reassure the House that the Government are taking this issue very seriously. As already mentioned, I met the hon. Member for St Helens North earlier this week to discuss his Bill and the options going forward. The Government understand the importance of this issue and are committed to considering what more can be done.

[Conor McGinn]

I want to place on record my thanks to the Minister and the Ministry of Justice for meeting me this week and for the constructive approach they have taken. Notwithstanding what he has said, I do not believe that any of the practical difficulties is insurmountable. In terms of the impact on victims, the thing that is causing Marie McCourt and her family and Jane Harrison’s family most torment and anguish is the thought that the murderer of their loved ones will be released from prison. The Minister should make no mistake about that whatever.

[Dr Lee]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention, and, of course, I get that.

The Government wrote to the independent Parole Board last year and asked it to review its guidance in respect of prisoners serving life sentences who do not accept full responsibility for their offence and who wilfully fail to disclose the whereabouts of their victim. While it is not directly relevant in this case, the Parole Board is strengthening its guidance, which will be issued in the spring, clarifying the issues that may need to be considered where the offender does not disclose the whereabouts of the victim’s body. While the guidance reaffirms that the Parole Board’s primary focus is on the risk to the public, it makes it clear that the offender’s withholding of this information may raise factors that are relevant to risk and can therefore result in the offender not being released.

I should also mention that the Parole Board continues to improve and develop the way it liaises with and involves victims in its decision making. I very much welcome its approach, which recognises how difficult it must be for victims to engage in any consideration of an offender’s release.

In addition, the Government are aware of the recent developments in some other countries, and we will be examining these approaches in more detail and seeing how they work in practice. Mercifully, these cases are rare, but we will consider whether these approaches would be appropriate for our justice system in England and Wales.

With reference to the question that was raised about the family having a chance to influence the conditions of release, it is not appropriate for me to discuss individual details of the case here. As the Department has previously said, we will be happy to meet the family to update them. I know they have been kept informed of any developments in the case by the victim liaison officer in the national probation service, on any move to open conditions and on the eligibility and conditions for any temporary release.

I would like to end by again extending my deepest sympathies to the family of Jane Harrison, and I thank the hon. Member for Mitcham and Morden for drawing this issue to the attention of the House. As victims Minister, I firmly believe that victims are at the heart of our criminal justice system, and I know that this is a deeply distressing and troubling issue for victims’ families.

There is, sadly, no easy solution here. I can tell the hon. lady that we will examine all the options that might provide a lawful and effective way to discourage offenders from withholding information. We all agree that we should consider any practical solution that will allow families to lay their loved ones to rest.

Question put and agreed to.

Youth Justice System: Gypsies and Travellers

Phillip Lee Excerpts

Wednesday 1st February 2017 Westminster Hall

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Dr Phillip Lee)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Dorries. I congratulate the hon. Member for Stretford and Urmston (Kate Green) on securing the debate. She has a long history of engagement in these issues, both before coming into Parliament and since.

Young people are some of the most vulnerable in the secure estate. We are determined to improve standards in youth justice so that we not only punish crime but intervene earlier to prevent crime and reform offenders to prevent further crimes from being committed.

There has been a significant and welcome reduction in the number of young people entering the youth justice system in recent years. However, we are concerned about the levels of disparity that exist in the justice system. Last August, the Prime Minister announced an audit of public services to reveal racial disparities, and the review, headed by the right hon. Member for Tottenham (Mr Lammy), has been established to provide an independent assessment of the treatment of and outcomes for black and minority ethnic individuals in the criminal justice system. Gypsies and Travellers fall within the scope of the review. In November last year, the right hon. Gentleman wrote to the Prime Minister setting out some of his emerging findings. The final report is due to be published in the summer, and we will give its findings careful consideration.

We also welcome the Women and Equalities Committee inquiry launched in November last year, which will look at the effectiveness of Government policy in improving outcomes for Gypsy, Romany or Traveller communities across education, health and employment as well as the criminal justice system. We will monitor the outcome of that inquiry.

I note the recent report by the Traveller Movement on Gypsies, Romany and Travellers in the youth justice system, for which the hon. Member for Stretford and Urmston drafted the foreword. I commend its work to promote increased race equality, inclusion and community cohesion.

The Youth Justice Board does not currently require local authorities to collect data specific to the identification of Gypsy, Romany and Traveller children and young people. However, the YJB and Her Majesty’s inspectorate of prisons publish an annual report, “Children in Custody”, which monitors the number of GRT children in young offenders institutions and secure training centres. The latest report, published last November, found that of the young people surveyed in STCs, 12% identified as GRT in 2015-16, which was up from 11% in 2014-15. For young offenders institutions, 7% considered themselves to be GRT, which was down from 8% in 2014-15.

The report showed that in young offenders institutions there was no difference between GRT children and the rest of the cohort in understanding spoken and written English. It also showed that participation in education, work or vocational skills training in custody is higher for those identifying as GRT than among the rest of the cohort.

[Mr David Lammy (Tottenham) (Lab)]

As I think the Minister is indicating, surveys show that Gypsy and Traveller young people’s experience of education in youth custody is positive; to the extent that they are in vocational training, they want to do it and their perceptions of being in education are positive.

[Mr Lammy]

I have seen that as I have been around prisons. That is something that the youth justice system can build on. I hope the Minister might indicate how that might happen.

[Dr Lee]

I know that the right hon. Gentleman is very interested in expanding the evidence base on the experience of GRT children in the youth justice system, in particular. As the hon. Member for Stretford and Urmston indicated, the genesis of a lot the problems encountered in the justice system predates their appearance in the system. A lot of them relate to the fact that those children do not attend school, so their first opportunity to receive education is in the system. We are conscious of that, and we are pleased that some of the indicators show that, when those services are offered, children engage with them. We want that to continue.

As I said, the youth justice system is of great importance to the Government. We have made it clear that outcomes are not good enough for children in custody. Reoffending rates remain stubbornly high, and not enough is done to support young offenders. That is evident for all young offenders, including those who identify as GRT. We also remain concerned about the level of violence in the youth secure estate. Recent figures demonstrate that levels of assault, self-harm and restraint remain too high.

In December, we set out our response to Charlie Taylor’s review of the youth justice system and how we will improve outcomes for young offenders and safety across the youth custodial estate. We will develop a new pre-apprenticeship pathway to ensure that all children and young people are in education, training or employment on their release. We have committed to boosting the number of frontline staff in young offenders institutions, and we will develop two secure schools with a particular focus on education and health. They will look to attract a wide range of specialist providers and allow them the freedom to decide how best to deliver services. I look forward to updating the House on the progress of those reforms as the work develops.

It is important that ethnicity classifications for young people are robust and accurate, so any potential disparities must be identified and suitably addressed. In 2011, the National Offender Management Service adopted the 18+1 ethnicity monitoring system on the centralised database used in prisons and young offenders institutions for the management of offenders, following the change of ethnicity classifications within the national census. The 18+1 system included as additional categories “Arab” and “Gypsy or Irish Traveller”, but the new classification is not consistently used by secure children’s homes, secure training centres and youth offending teams.

The YJB uses a number of different IT systems to monitor performance across the youth justice system. The two largest systems are eAsset, the custody booking system, and the youth justice application framework, which is used to record the ethnicity of young people and draws on data from individual youth offending team case management systems. Both of those systems currently use criteria from the 2001 census categories, which means that they do not capture GRT as a distinct category.

I am pleased to say that the Youth Justice Board has confirmed it is keen to move to the 18+1 system. However, although we support working towards consistency in the data that are recorded, further work is required to assess the feasibility and costs associated with such a move.

[Kate Green]

I am very encouraged by what the Minister is saying. Can he indicate how quickly that feasibility work can start?

[Dr Lee]

No, but I will write to the hon. Lady with a guide to how long it will take. There are some issues around the implementation, as she will understand, not least because the national census criteria may change again. It is work in progress, but I am happy to write to her.

Not only would the YJB have to make changes to its central systems, but it is likely that the youth offending teams would have to amend their individual case management systems too.

[Andy Slaughter]

I am very glad about what the Minister has said, but to clarify that point, is he saying that that will happen and he is just going to give us a date, or that it might happen depending on the cost?

[Dr Lee]

No, I am not committing to it happening. I am committing to coming back to Members with the approach we are taking. There are potential issues not only with the costs, but with how the work is going to be implemented across a diverse set of institutions, which are run by different organisations. I am committed to coming back with a schedule setting out the timing and how we are approaching this issue.

Work has begun on looking into the implications of the changes. In October 2016, the Youth Justice Board informed the four case management system suppliers, which cover 158 youth offending teams in England and Wales, of its intention to move towards the revised classification system. It is formalising its business requirements prior to initiating a preliminary impact assessment, which will set out the dependencies with existing IT systems and identify the feasibility and indicative costs of moving to the revised classification system.

On an issue raised by the hon. Member for Stretford and Urmston, the Government agree in principle with the use of the 18+1 system. We opposed the amendments that Baroness Brinton tabled to the Policing and Crime Bill for two main reasons: first, because further work was required to consider the cost and feasibility; and, secondly, because enshrining its use in legislation would create issues in the event that the Office for National Statistics decided to change the 18+1 system and introduce a new system of ethnicity classification in the future.

Although there is much work to do, the Government are committed to accurate monitoring of ethnicity across the youth justice system.

Question put and agreed to.

Oral Answers to Questions

Phillip Lee Excerpts

Tuesday 24th January 2017 Commons Chamber

[Carolyn Harris (Swansea East) (Lab)]

1. What support and resources the Government are providing to transgender prisoners.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Dr Phillip Lee)]

The House will be aware of the tragic death of Jenny Swift at Doncaster prison on 30 December. My sympathies are with her family. As with all deaths in custody, there will be an inquest and an independent investigation by the prisons and probation ombudsman. We are firmly committed to ensuring that transgender offenders are treated fairly, lawfully and decently, with their rights and safety respected.

[Carolyn Harris]

I cautiously welcome the new guidance regarding the management of transgender prisoners, and I am sure we are all keen to see all transgender people treated with respect and dignity. However, can the Minister assure the House that the new guidance applies to transgender people held in immigration and detention centres, as well as to those housed in the general prison system?

[Dr Lee]

I thank the hon. Lady for her question. The new guidelines to staff were issued on 9 November, following a review of the management and care of transgender offenders. The review involved independent oversight, including from the Prison Reform Trust. To put the issue into perspective, we have 70 people in this position in the estate at the moment, which broadly reflects the incidence in the population. Specifically on the question the hon. Lady asks, if she writes to me, I will reply.

[Ben Howlett (Bath) (Con)]

The National Offender Management Service guidance is very welcome, but will the Minister outline whether it applies to non-binary people who are in prisons, because this issue is not just about those who define themselves as men or women but about non-binary people as well?

[Dr Lee]

I thank my hon. Friend for that question. Again, to put the issue into perspective, we currently have four people who are in that position in the estate. The new guidelines state that all transgender prisoners

“must be allowed to express the gender with which they identify”,

irrespective of prison location.

[Daniel Zeichner (Cambridge) (Lab)]

Will the Minister confirm that that means there is no longer a requirement for a gender recognition certificate? Will he also tell us how confident he is that these guidelines are being applied across the whole estate and when he expects to do an assessment of their impact?

[Dr Lee]

The underlying principle is that people are cared for and managed in the gender with which they identify, rather than that being based solely on their legally recognised gender. As I said earlier, the guidelines came about through interaction with various independent organisations, and staff are being trained in this area. I think some perspective is required here: we have a prison system that is traditionally male-female, and we are dealing with relatively small numbers, but, yes, I am keeping an eye on this issue. In particular, with regard to recent tragic events, I am also looking individually at each case.

[Jeremy Quin (Horsham) (Con)]

2. What steps the Government are taking to improve prisoner rehabilitation.

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[Sir David Amess (Southend West) (Con)]

12. What steps the Government are taking to (a) treat drug addiction in prison and (b) provide education and skills training to prisoners formerly addicted to drugs to help them to find work on release.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Dr Phillip Lee)]

Our prison safety and reform White Paper affirms the Government’s commitment fundamentally to reassess our wider approach to tackling the supply of and the demand for drugs in prisons. It also gives governors greater power over services in their prisons, devolving control over education and increasing influence over healthcare provision, including drug testing and rehabilitation.

[Amanda Solloway]

I have visited many prisons in my role as rapporteur on mental health for the Joint Committee on Human Rights, and one of the most consistent and challenging problems is not only treating drug addiction but preventing new psychoactive substances from entering the prison system. Will the Minister update me on the Department’s plans to prevent NPS abuse in prisons?

[Dr Lee]

Prisons have a range of searching tools available. We have trained 300 dogs to detect psychoactive substances, and we have introduced laws to prosecute those who smuggle and supply drugs.

[Luke Hall]

Will my hon. Friend explain what impact legal highs are having inside prisons, and what steps are the Government taking to crack down on this very serious problem?

[Dr Lee]

The use of legal highs is undeniably changing behaviour patterns among prisoners. Last night’s “Panorama” illustrated the impact of new psychoactive substances. We have developed an innovative testing programme under the current mandatory drug testing regime, and we continue to work with health partners to reduce demand.

[Sir David Amess]

In the light of the increasing pressures on the prison population, does my hon. Friend see any merit in the Howard League for Penal Reform’s suggestions about increasing the use of community orders—they certainly work well in Southend—and in its approach to helping offenders with drug problems?

[Dr Lee]

We want community orders to be effective so that further crimes are not committed. This includes better mental health interventions and drugs and alcohol desistance interventions. I am fully aware of the fact that if we can get to grips with the mental health challenges and the substance misuse challenges, crime will go down.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

If the Minister is to address the issue of drug addiction, he will have to address the issue of drugs being smuggled into prison. One method of doing that would be the introduction of new scanning machines similar to those at airports. Has the Minister given any consideration to doing that in prisons, thereby stopping drugs being smuggled by people into prison?

[Dr Lee]

Yes, consideration has been given to that. There is a particular difficulty with new psychoactive substances, because the way in which they are smuggled in—for example, by the impregnation of letters or paper—means that it is difficult to stop them via scanning. The hon. Gentleman should be assured that we are desperate to get a grip on the smuggling and supply of drugs into prisons because of the adverse impact that they are having.

[Mr Speaker]

The hon. Member for Vale of Clwyd (Dr Davies) has an identical question, Question 19. It was not grouped with this question, but the position is clear: if he does stand I will call him, and if he doesn’t I won’t. He does. Get in there man!

[Dr James Davies (Vale of Clwyd) (Con)]

19. Does my hon. Friend agree that, if we are to reduce reoffending, it is vital to get prisoners off drugs and give them the skills they will need to find work in their local community on release?

[Dr Lee]

My hon. Friend, who has the same profession as me, fully understands the importance of the proper treatment of substance misuse. Having successfully got off the drug, part of that is finding purpose in life, and employment is key to that.

[Simon Hoare (North Dorset) (Con)]

6. What steps the Government are taking to recruit more prison staff.

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[Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op)]

T5. All Members will have been appalled by the recent findings of the inquest into the tragic death of Dean Saunders in Chelmsford prison. This was a man in a mental health crisis who should never have been sent to prison, and he was failed by everyone who should have been there to protect him. According to the charity Inquest, he is one of the 113 prisoners who took their life last year. When will the Secretary of State provide a full and frank response to the question of why Dean died?

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Dr Phillip Lee)]

My condolences go to Dean Saunders’ family. This is a dreadful case. I have seen the details of it, and I am seeking the details of all those cases to see whether there is a pattern in why they are happening. I hope to come forward later in the year with suggestions for policy change relating to mental health assessments in prisons.

[Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con)]

T4. Figures released last month show that women are twice as likely as men to be prosecuted and seven times more likely than men to face the maximum £1,000 fine for non-payment of the TV licence fee. Additionally, figures show that in 2015 the number of women jailed for offences relating to this matter doubled. Will my hon. Friend explain to the House why women seem to fall foul of the TV tax so disproportionately?

[Dr Lee]

Of course, sentencing in individual cases is a matter for the courts. However, the Government are concerned that women—and, indeed, men—should not be sent to custody if they do not need to be there. Revised guidance on sentencing for non-payment of the TV licence fee was issued today by the Sentencing Council. The guidelines set out possible factors that could reduce the seriousness of TV licence evasion, including circumstances in which the culprit is experiencing significant financial hardship.

[Helen Hayes (Dulwich and West Norwood) (Lab)]

T6. The proposed closure of Camberwell magistrates court would require my constituents—whether victims, witnesses or defendants—to make unacceptably long bus journeys to Croydon and Wimbledon to attend court. What assessment has the Secretary of State made of the implications of the proposed closure for access to justice for my constituents?

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[Mims Davies (Eastleigh) (Con)]

When people leave prison, we need to ensure that those addicted to drugs or alcohol have the best start away from their dependency so that their loved ones can be protected from that harm. Does the Minister agree that former prisoners with a substance addiction, who might come back coercively to control their families to get to that substance, can be managed better?

[Dr Lee]

I think it extremely important that ex-offenders receive appropriate substance misuse treatment in the community, and I am looking at that extremely closely.

[Several hon. Members rose—]