Housing Benefit (Under-occupancy Penalty)

Esther McVey Excerpts

Wednesday 27th February 2013 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Esther McVey)]

I thank Members on both sides of the House for their valuable contributions to this important debate. It is good to have an opportunity to respond to a number of the points that were raised, and also to correct some inaccuracies.

Having listened to the whole debate, I know that there are some issues on which we all agree. Consensus is an important point at which to start, because we are all looking for a solution to a problem that the coalition Government have been handed, so I will begin by listing the facts on which we are agreed.

There is a considerable lack of social homes, because very few have been built in recent years. The Secretary of State has referred to a complete collapse in the building of social housing under the last Government. Housing benefit has doubled in the last 10 years. We all agree that we will have to manage the bill for that, but how are we going to deal with it? How are we going to find a solution to such a large problem? We all probably agree, too, that fairness must be at the heart of that solution: fairness to those who are in overcrowded homes, fairness to those who are under-occupying, and fairness to the taxpayer.

Let me begin, however, with the removal of discrepancies in the rented sector between those who are privately renting and those who are socially renting. An arrangement whereby people living next door to each other are renting under different systems is innately unfair, and must be addressed. I think all Members will be pleased to hear that I shall be taking Labour’s lead in this instance. Labour introduced the local housing allowance for private sector tenants who did not receive housing benefit for a spare bedroom, which seems a good point at which to start. We are doing the same, in that we are introducing equality in the system for everyone who is renting.

The second issue that we must tackle is the problem of people who are living in overcrowded accommodation. As my hon. Friend the Minister of State said, a quarter of a million people are in that position. My hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg), my right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham (Mr Redwood) and my hon. Friend the Member for Battersea (Jane Ellison) also mentioned those people, but Opposition Members refused to discuss them.

We also all agree that we are talking about family homes. They are not just houses; people have lived in them. That is why we have exempted those who are above the state pension credit age. We recognise that pensioners would be particularly affected by these changes. My hon. Friend the Member for City of Chester (Stephen Mosley) reminded Labour Members what they had repeated time and again. They must get a grip of the housing benefit bill. They never managed to do that in government, but they must do it if they are to be even a credible Opposition.

My hon. Friend the Member for Battersea made a very important point. When Opposition Members said that they would vote against the measure because they disagreed with it, she challenged them by asking whether they would reverse it and put that in their manifesto. Silence came from the Opposition Benches.

On discretionary housing payments, many Members raised specific issues and complex cases. Specific groups were identified, such as foster carers and people who live in houses with major disability adaptations. Rather than central Government defining exactly what should happen in every case, we have allocated the money we think is needed and given it to local authorities so they can respond on a case-by-case basis. Such local discretion is right. We might think that many different individuals should be exempt, but it would be impossible to write that into regulations and statutory instruments. That is why we have allocated discretionary housing payments of £60 million this year and £155 million next year to local authorities.

In the past, discretionary payments have been seen as a temporary fix for a short-term problem. However, under the new system these new payments can be for the long term, because some situations will not change, and if someone lives in a house that has been substantially adapted, they will need to keep it.

We have debated this subject for over six hours and many inaccurate things were said and many questions were raised and remained unanswered, so I will canter through quite a few of them. The hon. Member for Dundee East (Stewart Hosie) asked about children at university. Children absent at college are covered by the normal rates of absences and will not be affected if they are returning for holidays. My hon. Friend the Member for Leeds North West (Greg Mulholland) asked whether people can apply ahead of their need arising. They can: they can apply for these payments now, although, obviously, they will not be paid until the payment is needed.

The hon. Members for Dundee East and for Strangford (Jim Shannon) asked about people with a disability who need an overnight carer. Obviously, they are exempt, regardless of whether they need an overnight carer all the time or just occasionally. Again, Opposition Members got their facts wrong.

The hon. Member for Dumfries and Galloway (Mr Brown) questioned the number of spare bedrooms. There are 1 million spare bedrooms in properties occupied by working-age people alone, so that does not include pensioners. The hon. Member for Glasgow North (Ann McKechin) asked why Lord Freud could not attend a meeting. He could not do so because he was involved in a debate in the other place. However, I am happy to confirm that he will make that visit very soon. That is being arranged with the Secretary of State.

The hon. Member for Westminster North (Ms Buck) said that if people are moving around, this policy will not save any money. That is incorrect. She is not taking account of the previous circumstances of the people who will be moving into the vacated properties. [Interruption.] They may have been in more expensive private or temporary accommodation, so this dynamic benefit will save money. [Interruption.] Opposition Members are perpetuating inaccurate myths. [Interruption.]

[Mr Speaker]

Order. The hon. Member for Denton and Reddish (Andrew Gwynne) is shouting more loudly at the Minister than I shouted for Arsenal at the Emirates last Saturday. It really will not do.

[Esther McVey]

The hon. Member for Swansea West (Geraint Davies) talked about under-occupancy among homeowners and asked what we are doing about that. The Government support homeowners taking in a lodger if they wish, just as we do for people in social housing. There will be a £4,250 income tax exemption should somebody want to take in a lodger.

The hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) talked about borrowing more money. We cannot keep on borrowing. That is what got us into this situation. We need to stop borrowing and start living within our means.

Let me finish dealing with the questions that were raised. Many hon. Members asked about the cost of moving—

[Pete Wishart]

claimed to move the closure (Standing Order No. 36).

Question put forthwith, That the Question be now put.

Question agreed to.

Main Question accordingly put.

The House proceeded to a Division.

Oral Answers to Questions

Esther McVey Excerpts

Monday 28th January 2013 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Esther McVey)]

About 280,000 disability living allowance claims have been reassessed over the past six months. Reassessments are comprised of super-sessions, where someone reports changes in their circumstances; renewals of fixed-term awards, which are by far the biggest; and reconsiderations.

[Chi Onwurah]

A constituent of mine had to wait two years to have his DLA appeal reassessed, causing him immense hardship. They found in his favour. He is not alone. Newcastle citizens advice bureau and the Newcastle welfare rights service each see two or three new cases of DLA delays every single week. How will the Minister ensure that the roll-out of the personal independence payment will not lead to the same vulnerable groups being subjected to more delays?

[Esther McVey]

I have the figures from 2007-08 and they are exactly the same as those for DLA this year, whether that applies to appeals or to people wanting to make new claims. That was the main reason for introducing PIP. It is about clarity and certainty for both the claimant and the assessors, so that we can reduce any delays in reassessments and appeals.

[Paul Maynard (Blackpool North and Cleveleys) (Con)]

The Minister will be aware that the opportunity to have one’s DLA reconsidered at the end of a fixed-term award is, actually, not an opportunity to cut the DLA. Will she join me in welcoming the fact that more than 12,000 people in the past year have had their DLA award increased at the end of a fixed term? Is that not something that the Opposition ought to bear in mind when they criticise us for cutting DLA?

[Esther McVey]

My hon. Friend is correct. If people are being reassessed or if their term has come to an end, they will be reviewed according to their needs now and many people will get an increased award.

[Mrs Anne McGuire (Stirling) (Lab)]

On 13 December 2012, the Minister announced that there would be

“a significantly slower reassessment timetable”—[Official Report, 13 December 2012; Vol. 555, c. 464.]

for the PIP process—the replacement for DLA—which I welcomed. However, did that significantly slower reassessment timetable impact on the contracts that were signed in August 2012 with Capita and Atos on a different timetable? Will there be any significant financial reassessments as a result of the new timetable? Did she consider whether the changes were significant enough to necessitate re-tendering the contract?

[Esther McVey]

We did indeed slow down the roll-out of the reassessments, having listened to the consultation and what various organisations and charities said, but we did not consider that to be significant change to the contract, so we are working closely with both Atos and Capita to ensure the smooth running of the roll-out.

[Jonathan Reynolds (Stalybridge and Hyde) (Lab/Co-op)]

7. What assessment he has made of the preparations for the introduction of universal credit; and if he will make a statement.

--- Later in debate ---

[Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab)]

13. What estimate she has made of the number of unpaid carers who will lose carer’s allowance as a result of the benefit cap.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Esther McVey)]

No one loses carer’s allowance as a result of the benefit cap for, as the hon. Lady may know, the cap is applied to overall household income.

[Barbara Keeley]

What advice would the Minister give to the 5,000 carers who, as the Government’s impact assessment states, will lose an average of £105 a week through the operation of the benefit cap? Is she suggesting that they give up caring, look for work and ask social services to find a care placement for the person they care for? Why have the Government not thought of exempting carers, who do a wonderful job, from the benefit cap in recognition of their unpaid caring work?

[Esther McVey]

I would not seek to tell anybody what they should do. We seek to work closely with people to enable and support them as best we can. We are doing that by trebling the discretionary payment to help people into work, because if they are on working tax credits, they will be exempt from the benefit cap.

[Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab)]

I can tell the House that

“carers caring for an adult disabled child or other adult relative could see their benefits capped, because the DLA of the people they care for is not considered to be in the same benefit package or ‘household’ as the carers’–even if they are living together.”

This is a direct quote from Carers UK. Does the Minister agree with Carers UK that it is confusing, complicated and simply unfair to protect some carers and not others?

[Esther McVey]

I remind the hon. Gentleman that the definition of “household” has been in place for some time, so what has happened has always been in place. As the Secretary of State said, there are many exemptions from the cap. Working with the discretionary payment, we can work together to get this right.

[Emma Reynolds (Wolverhampton North East) (Lab)]

14. What steps he is taking to address long-term unemployment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) (Lab)]

T4. More than 2.3 million people with disabilities currently live in poverty. Given that fewer than half of all disabled people are in work, that we have a contracting economy and that at least £6.7 billion is being cut from disability benefits, how many more disabled people do the Government estimate will be living in poverty at the end of this Parliament?

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Esther McVey)]

Let me say straight away that I do not recognise the hon. Lady’s figures at all. What I can tell her is that £50 billion is spent every year on support and benefits, and that will continue. We are spending £13 billion a year on disability living allowance, and we will continue spending that when people are moved on to the personal independence payment. We are doing a lot and we are protecting the most vulnerable, as acknowledged around the world.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

The winter fuel allowance is a non-contributory benefit, yet every year we spend tens of millions of pounds on winter fuel allowance for pensioners who live abroad in far pleasanter climates than our own. Is there nothing that the Government can do within the terms of the EU directive to ensure that such payments cease and that pensioners in this country benefit from that money?

--- Later in debate ---

[Stephen Lloyd (Eastbourne) (LD)]

As the Minister knows, concern has been expressed recently following the conversion from disability living allowance to the personal independence payment. It relates to mobility-impaired people and the change from 50 metres to 20 metres. Will she confirm that she has listened carefully to the points raised about converting the guidelines to ensure that the words “reliably, safely, repeatedly and in a timely manner” will appear in the regulation, so that the people who are anxious about this can be reassured?

[Esther McVey]

My hon. Friend is correct to suggest that we have been in discussions about this. At the moment, the words “reliably, safely, repeatedly and in a timely manner” are in the contracts and in the guidance, and we are looking to see whether they can be put into the regulation, but that will happen only if that achieves what it is intended to achieve.

[Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)]

DWP research suggests that over 42% of people affected by the bedroom tax will not be able to pay the difference and will go into arrears instead. Given that DWP research, how many people does the Minister or the Secretary of State expect to lose their homes as a result of these crazy policies?

Housing Benefit and Disabled People

Esther McVey Excerpts

Wednesday 23rd January 2013 Westminster Hall

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Esther McVey)]

It is a pleasure to take part in a debate on such an important issue, and I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Stafford (Jeremy Lefroy) on securing it. It is also a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Caton. I believe that it is the first time that I have done so.

As we have heard, there is considerable interest among hon. Members in all parts of the House in housing benefit and how the benefits system supports disabled people, and it is important that we make time to discuss those issues in detail. Before I address some of the specific issues that have been raised, I will set out the Government’s approach to housing provision for disabled people.

As hon. Members will be aware, the Government are in the process of reforming the welfare system that will result in housing benefit for working-age people being replaced by universal credit. Current housing benefit arrangements include specific provisions for disabled people that mirror those for other means-tested benefits. They include, for example, a range of disability premiums, earnings disregards and permitted-work rules. With universal credit, we are simplifying the current arrangements to ensure that disabled people benefit from improved work incentives and a smoother transition into work.

My hon. Friend is right to point out that the cost of housing benefit has increased by about 50% in real terms over the past decade, with expenditure totalling £23 billion in 2011-12. That is simply unaffordable in the current economic climate. To begin to address it, the emergency Budget in June 2010 introduced a series of reforms to housing benefit paid to claimants in both the private and social rented sectors. Starting in April 2011, and finishing last month, we set up a series of reforms to local housing allowance, which is the basis for housing benefit awards made to people renting in the private sector. Those changes are intended to exert downward pressure on rents and introduce fairness into the system—for example, by setting caps on the benefit that is paid to ensure that the benefit system is not funding accommodation that many hard-working families could not afford.

Disabled people are not exempt from the reforms, but steps have been taken to provide some additional support to minimise potential adverse impacts on them. My hon. Friend mentioned the number of people affected by the social sector size criteria who are disabled. It is important to stress, however, that that reflects the general proportion of disabled people living in social sector housing overall. In answer to his question, I can confirm to my hon. Friend that the criteria allow for an extra room where a household has an overnight carer.

I am pleased to hear that Stafford borough council and South Staffordshire district council have been working proactively with tenants to identify, for example, where there may be scope for a mutual exchange. I have had other reports in the Department for Work and Pensions of such direct engagement with tenants. I must stress that many other options may be open to people, including those that they arrive at privately to deal with their own circumstances. Things that people can do—and are already doing—include moving somewhere smaller, finding the extra money required, or taking in a lodger. We are now waiving the income tax on that up to £4,250 a year. No tax would be payable on that sum. It is important to note that the private sector may have a supply of different sized properties and that people could move out of the social and into the private sector. When properties without the right number of bedrooms are not available in the social sector, they might be available in the private sector.

[Anas Sarwar]

Is the Minister seriously suggesting that people who are among the poorest and most vulnerable in our communities will be able to find £728, on average, from their annual income, to make up for the deficit in the housing benefit that they will get?

[Esther McVey]

I am not being specific about what people should or should not do. I am saying that there is an array of options, from which someone will find their best solution. The hon. Gentleman will, like me, have met people at surgeries who have said that they have come together as a family to work on the best solution for everyone. It is not a question of one person in isolation but the whole family. Many options are available. As we have said, we are living in tough financial times. What I am talking about is not something that we can take on board easily. We must just consider the fact that there are 1 million spare bedrooms in the current housing situation, but that 250,000 families live in overcrowded houses. We must ask what we can do to support those people.

[Anas Sarwar]

Will the Minister give way?

[Esther McVey]

I will proceed a bit further, and then if the hon. Gentleman wants to ask a further question he can.

There are always specific cases where the options in question may not be sensible or appropriate, and that is why we have trebled funding—a considerable amount—for discretionary housing payments, to give local authorities more flexibility to help people affected by the changes. Overall discretionary housing payment funding in 2013-14 will total £155 million. The funding has been allocated to support the bedding in of specific reforms, but we have listened to feedback from local authorities and as a result have built in flexibility that will allow authorities to allocate funding based on local needs. That flexibility includes, for example, helping disabled people who have made adaptations to their homes to remain in them, as was mentioned by my hon. Friend.

As I have said, there will be provision for those disabled people who need overnight, non-residential carers to receive additional payments for an extra bedroom. The hon. Gentleman pointed out that we are giving many types of support. The trebling of the discretionary benefit really does go to support the people most in need.

[Anas Sarwar]

On flexibility, is the Minister open to the idea of introducing a safeguard for people who cannot reasonably move to another local property because of the lack of availability and of sanctioning them only if they refuse a reasonable request? Is she open to that safeguard?

[Esther McVey]

The hon. Gentleman is speaking hypothetically. We have put in extra discretionary funds, because local councils will know exactly who those individuals are. We have put in extra money, and we have said that it is possible to move between the social and private sectors. With all the options that we have put in place, we believe that we will find solutions for all cases.

[Jeremy Lefroy]

I am grateful to the Minister for her answers. Will she give us some assurance that the additional discretionary funding, which we need to look at again to see whether it is adequate, will be continued through 2014-15 and 2015-16? Often the adaptations are such that it is not possible for a disabled person to move property in the next year or two. One of my constituents has adaptations worth some £30,000. It does not make any sense for them to move from their property.

[Esther McVey]

My hon. Friend makes a good point, and I will come on to that a little bit later and explain in detail what we are doing. He will also appreciate that I cannot make spending commitments into the next Parliament. None the less, with regard to the discretionary housing payment, the Government are committed to ensuring that the reforms are well implemented. We are working closely with local authorities and the Local Government Association regarding this payment usage. As part of the review of these reforms, we are taking ongoing feedback, and I will be pleased to pass on the points raised here today and any further evidence that emerges as the reforms are rolled out. We will continue to monitor and evaluate the impact of the changes.

I should like to put it on the record that a lot of the negative impacts that people talked about last year, such as an explosion of homelessness and mass migration, have simply not emerged. We all want to ensure that there is a smooth transition and that the change is affordable. Of course we are using common sense. My hon. Friend talks about expensive modifications. We know that we have to take that into account, which is precisely why we have trebled the discretionary fund.

We have also made arguments for exempting certain categories from the social sector size criteria measure. However, we do not believe that blanket exemptions are the most effective and affordable approach to targeting resources, because they do not take into account local knowledge. We have therefore avoided exemptions where possible and favoured the discretionary housing payment, because local decision makers are best placed to make decisions based on individual circumstances.

[Ian Lucas]

The Minister is being generous in giving way. Can she foresee circumstances in which someone who requires an overnight carer is not allowed an extra room within the housing benefit provisions?

[Esther McVey]

That is precisely why we are monitoring and evaluating the scheme, and we will continue to do so for two years to see what extra support might be needed. Of course we are watching and observing what is going on. [Interruption.] I will complete my comments here. However, we are committed to undertaking the independent evaluation of all housing reforms. The first report on the private sector is due to be published later this year, and work on evaluating the social sector changes will be implemented in April, with initial findings being available next year.

I trust that I have answered many of the questions that have been raised today. On other specific matters, I will get back to my hon. Friend. As I have already said, this is an important debate, and it is crucial that we closely monitor the situation. We are considering the most vulnerable people in society, and we have a commitment to them.

[John McDonnell]

I do not want the Minister to sit down thinking that there is no housing crisis out there. She referred to the predictions on housing benefit not coming true, but they have in my constituency. I have the worst housing crisis since the second world war. Nevertheless, she has mentioned monitoring, which is critical. Will she give an assurance that that monitoring will be published regularly, so that the House can receive and debate it? The points raised by the hon. Member for Stafford (Jeremy Lefroy) are critical. We must see what is happening on the ground, because a number of local authorities might want to work with Government to plan a transition over time. There will be a number of families for whom alternative private accommodation or social housing is not available and might not be available for years. An assurance that the monitoring will be published and that we will be able to debate it in the House would be helpful.

[Esther McVey]

The hon. Gentleman makes a good point. Of course, we have to monitor the situation, and I have confirmation from colleagues that the monitoring and evaluation will be made public. At the moment, there is much speculation about what might happen, but that is hypothetical. We do not know about that, but by monitoring closely, by introducing a discretionary fund and by working in a common-sense way with people on the ground who know best about local needs, we can get this right.

[Jeremy Lefroy]

I welcome the Minister’s commitment to monitoring, which is important. Will she say a few words about fathers who, unfortunately, are separated from the mothers of their children and who are not allowed to count the presence of their children in their home for up to three nights a week as part of the occupancy of that home? That is an important point. She and I, and I think all hon. Members present, feel that it is important for children to have regular access to both their parents—in this case, to their fathers.

[Esther McVey]

Again, my hon. Friend asks a key question. The heart of the matter is that we do not want children to suffer. Children must have what is right for them, but where a tenant has non-residential children, housing benefit may already pay for a room for the child or children in the place where they usually reside. Funding an additional room in both parents’ properties could be a double provision, but discretionary payments are the best way to address specific complex cases, which we are talking about here.

I am glad that all those points have been highlighted, and they will all be closely monitored. I thank my hon. Friend for bringing such an important debate to the House.

Personal Independence Payments

Esther McVey Excerpts

Tuesday 22nd January 2013 Westminster Hall

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Esther McVey)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Bolton West (Julie Hilling) on securing the debate on such an important issue and welcome all the contributions that have been made. It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship today, Dr McCrea.

The UK remains a world leader in rights for disabled people, and we currently spend almost £50 billion a year on services and benefits for them. Those valuable support mechanisms enable disabled people to make their own choices and live as independently as possible. However, for those valuable services to continue to be available, they must be provided in a sustainable way that reflects the needs of disabled people in today’s society.

It is generally recognised by hon. Members on both sides of the House and by the Select Committee on Work and Pensions that disability living allowance needs reform, to reflect today’s understanding of disability better. DLA has not been fundamentally reformed since its introduction more than 20 years ago, and it is a complex, poorly targeted and inflexible benefit, for some. There is confusion as to purpose and sometimes unfairness in the awards that are given, which has damaged public confidence in the benefit. The changes in the treatment of blind and severely visually impaired people, from DLA to PIP, should be welcomed, for we are giving the clarity that the hon. Lady seeks.

If there had not been a need to deal with the faulty structure of DLA in the first place, it might have taken slightly less effort to bring about the changes that we need in PIP. There has been a rigorous consultation over nearly two years, taking into view representations from charities and organisations that have all had a say.

[Anas Sarwar]

Will the Minister join me in congratulating the Royal National Institute of Blind People, which has campaigned extensively on the issue and has managed to get some concessions, although there is still work to do?

[Esther McVey]

I will indeed congratulate the RNIB and other charities and organisations that have represented the needs of blind and partially sighted people. The hon. Gentleman makes a good point.

The approach taken in the DLA to recognise the mobility difficulties of blind and severely visually impaired people does not look at people as individuals; it looks at their conditions. What we are doing—and, I believe, what the hon. Lady seeks—is requiring that everyone needs to be looked at as an individual: how has their condition affected them? That really is what PIP is intended to do. It is personalised. It is about the individual: what help that person needs.

At the moment, for DLA, 50% of claimants do not have medical support for their condition. More than 70% have an award for life. We seek to serve the public, including the hon. Lady’s constituents, as well as we can by making an award that is personalised.

The hon. Lady’s first question was about means-testing: no, the award of DLA and PIP is non-means-tested and that is how it will remain. It is intended to help those people with the most barriers to overcome them and live independent lives. As I said, it is very much about the individual, about what is fair to that individual and about the needs arising from the condition. To that extent, it is very much personalised. It will be flexible enough to reflect individual needs—that is what PIP is specifically designed to do. It is about having clarity, so that people will be certain of what they will get, but also about flexibility.

I thank the hon. Lady for bringing her constituents’ concerns before the House, because that is what we are here to do, to put a face and a person behind the needs, so that we can explain things clearly.

[Jim Shannon]

Can the Minister answer my intervention on the hon. Member for Bolton West (Julie Hilling)? What can the Government do for RNIB and Action for Blind People to help people to fill in forms? Those organisations will be inundated with people needing help, so whatever assistance the Government can give will be money and time well spent.

[Esther McVey]

The hon. Gentleman may not know that the people seeking the award can say how they would like the form delivered to them and in what context. If people so wish, they can be accompanied by someone from a charity or organisation or by a friend to help them with the assessment. The process is about finding out as much as we can about the individual to help with the assessment and the decision so that we can give the correct award. Again,

“reliably, repeatedly, safely and in a timely manner”

is key to the decisions—that phrase is in the guidance and in the contract with the providers. The hon. Member for Bolton West asked whether that could be put in regulation, and I announced before the Select Committee on Work and Pensions yesterday that we are examining whether that would be of benefit. The matter is with lawyers at the moment, because we do not want to introduce something that could go against what we are seeking to do, to ensure

“reliably, repeatedly, safely and in a timely manner”,

which is key to the assessment. We are therefore looking at whether it can be put in regulation or whether it is better staying in the guidance notes. The hon. Lady also asked about those notes, which will be published as soon as they can be, possibly by the end of the month.

This is a principled reform, which we have developed in consultation and collaboration with disabled people. We have listened to their concerns, and those of their representatives and organisations, and we have made a significant number of changes as a result of the feedback from groups that represent visually impaired people. Indeed, that was recognised by RNIB, which stated in its report to the secondary legislation scrutiny Committee that

“the final criteria include a number of significant improvements for blind and partially sighted people.”

We were told that our draft communication activity did not take appropriate account of the barriers faced by people who cannot access written information. As a result, we introduced an additional activity to assess ability to read and understand signs, symbols and words. Therefore, someone who is completely unable to read because of their disability—for example, because of blindness—will get eight points towards their daily living component score. The score from that activity alone will mean that they get the standard rate of the daily living component. That is only one of the criteria; there will be a further nine in that section.

We also acted on the feedback that the effect of visual impairment for people who use long canes was not appropriately reflected in the mobility activities and that the barriers such people face are similar to those faced by people who have a support dog.

[Julie Hilling]

I appreciate what the Minister says about people who are totally blind, but what about those who can read at home only with the use of a magnifier? A magnifier clearly cannot be taken to the supermarket or into the street. Will such people be deemed unable to read?

[Esther McVey]

That will be recognised, because what an individual can do inside the house with a magnifying glass might be significantly different from what they can do outside the house, such as following a journey, reading signs or reading labels in a shop, all of which have now been taken into consideration and will lead to points being accrued during an assessment.

The final draft of the assessment criteria includes specialist orientation aids, such as long canes, in the “planning and following journeys” activity. Therefore, someone who is blind and needs to use a long cane to follow journeys, even in familiar places, will receive 12 points, which will qualify them for the enhanced rate of the mobility component.

We have acted on concerns about the speed of reassessment by extending the reassessment timetable, so that we can learn from the early introduction of PIP by fully testing our process. We will be able to consider the outcomes of our first independent review in 2014 and act on its findings before reassessing the majority of current DLA claimants. The extended strategy means that the main bulk of reassessment will not start until autumn 2015.

[Julie Hilling]

rose—

[Esther McVey]

I will give way, although time is running out.

[Julie Hilling]

I thank the Minister for her generosity. On mobility, what about people who are severely visually impaired but who have some vision and who need to use a cane for familiar and unfamiliar journeys? Will they be entitled to the highest number of points?

[Esther McVey]

Again, the benefit is based on the individual, so I cannot give an all-encompassing answer. We have taken on board all the factors that have been raised today, and they have been reflected in the assessment. We have made that very clear, and each person will be viewed on how they are affected by their condition. The likelihood is that the answer is yes, but we have to view people as individuals. There have been strong representations from all the blind charities and partially sighted organisations, and those representations are reflected. The news of how we have changed the assessment has been welcomed by the groups themselves.

We are also seeking to learn from the experience of delivering the work capability assessment—and, yes, from the failings that we have had to address—to ensure that we get PIP right from the start. As part of that, we are looking closely at the findings of both the independent reviews of the work capability assessment by Professor Harrington to see where we can improve the design of the PIP claim and assessment processes to make them better, more effective and a more positive experience for claimants.

I hope that I have reassured hon. Members that we have listened and acted on the concerns of visually impaired people and that PIP will take appropriate account of the barriers that they face on a daily basis. As material on the RNIB acknowledges, the changes now mean that the

“blind and partially sighted should see their needs recognised when PIP is introduced.”

Remploy Marine Fife

Esther McVey Excerpts

Tuesday 15th January 2013 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Esther McVey)]

I congratulate the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown) on securing the debate. It is a pleasure to see him in his place for such an important debate. I am pleased, too, that the hon. Members for Glenrothes (Lindsay Roy) and for Dunfermline and West Fife (Thomas Docherty) made their points. We must ensure that we have, as we have had this evening, a constructive and positive discussion so that we engage potential bidders for the site. We need people to come forward and to have that constructive dialogue to make sure that we do as much as we can for the employees of Remploy.

I listened carefully to the issues raised during the debate. It is important that we put in context what is happening with the Remploy sites.

[Jim McGovern]

rose—

[Esther McVey]

We know that Remploy has faced an uncertain future for many years. The right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath will be well aware of what happened under the previous Government and under his leadership in 2008, when 29 factories were closed. A modernisation plan that was put in place failed. Unrealistic targets were set that were never achieved, and it cost £555 million.

We must look at what this Government were left with, what had not worked before, what money—half a billion pounds—had been spent, and the situation now. A sixth of the entire budget for people with disability and their employment support was spent on 2,200 workers in loss-making Remploy sites, when we have 6.9 million disabled people of working age, all of whom we must help.

[Stewart Hosie (Dundee East) (SNP)]

Will the Minister give way?

--- Later in debate ---

[Esther McVey]

Let me put that into local context, then I will give way. There are 36 disabled employees at Cowdenbeath Remploy, yet there are 13,800 disabled people of working age in that constituency. In Leven there are 28 disabled staff at Remploy, yet there are 13,600 disabled people in the constituency. As a Government we must help all those disabled people, so we have protected the £320 million budget. What we are doing is helping all those people.

[Stewart Hosie]

I thank the Minister for giving way. This is not just about money. It is also about information. The right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown) referred to the Dundee plant which cuts the fabric for the Fife plants. It may well be able to be saved and rise as a phoenix as a social enterprise, but Remploy has been unable or unwilling to provide the cost breakdown for the factory, making the development of a business plan impossible. That at least the hon. Lady can surely sort out.

[Esther McVey]

I am happy to engage with the hon. Gentleman. All the information is coming out in a staged process, as announced in December. All the bids are now coming forward, but I will help the hon. Gentleman with any information that he does not have.

[Jim McGovern]

Will the Minister give way?

[Esther McVey]

I am running out of time and there is lots to say, so on this occasion I will not give way.

What is the vision for people with disabilities in the workplace? It is not our vision—we went out to disability experts and organisations and asked them to review the disability employment support and what we should be doing. They strongly supported the idea of moving away from the Remploy model. First and most importantly for the 21st century, they felt that we needed to get more disabled people into mainstream work. We need to get more disabled people into work because at present only 46% of working age disabled people are employed, compared with 76% of people who are not disabled. That means that there is a 30% gap in the employment rate and 2 million people out there whom we have to support.

In conclusion, the vision is that the money that has been protected must follow the person and will not go to loss-making businesses. Let me put that in context. Although the factory at Leven generated about £1.2 million in revenue for 2011-12, it is running at a loss of more than a third of a million pounds per annum. The factory at Cowdenbeath generated just under £0.8 million, but it loses £0.5 million in revenue per annum. We could use all that money to help support people with disabilities into work. We can help each one with, on average, £3,200 to get into work.

Of the 668,000 people with disabilities in Scotland, 152 work in a Remploy factory, but last year Remploy Employment Services got 1,700 people with similar disabilities into work. That is what we have to do—support all those people.

To answer directly some of the questions that have been asked, the Remploy commercial process is designed to maximise the number of jobs for disabled people. We are seeking viable bids for its business, wherever possible, and getting the best offers we can to come forward. That is what it is about—supporting disabled people.

Remploy is offering a three-year tapered wage subsidy of £6,400 per disabled person. The right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath has said that that subsidy is insufficient and has called for more money, but how did we come to that figure? We worked on past precedents. The right hon. Gentleman’s Government put wage subsidies in place for Workstep and we were guided by that, but the subsidy is worth more than that and other subsidies, such as the Youth Contract. We also have to strike a balance between the needs of Remploy’s disabled employees and those of other disabled employees, to whom we cannot offer that wage subsidy.

Yes, we have to take into account support for the workers, but not in a way that affects the commercial market for other companies in the marketplace. Significantly increasing the subsidy and support provided to existing businesses risks the very test that the commercial process seeks to perform, in that a business must demonstrate that it can be viable without continued Government subsidy. We have given Government subsidy in the past and, as I have said, the past modernisation plan failed—£555 million was put into it over a continuous period and it did not work. Therefore, we have to look at what is feasible and viable and at how we can move forward.

[Mr Gordon Brown]

rose—

[Esther McVey]

I have three minutes to go, but I will give way to the right hon. Gentleman.

[Mr Brown]

This debate is about Remploy Marine Fife and questions need to be answered about it. I have made a practical proposal that the Government, the Scottish Administration and Fife council should meet and look at flexible arrangements, so that the shortfall is eliminated as quickly as possible for a viable product. Will the Minister agree to those meetings?

[Esther McVey]

I will, indeed, agree to those meetings. In fact, I will be in Dundee on 4 February and I will be more than happy to meet Members.

[Jim McGovern]

Will the Minister give way?

[Esther McVey]

The hon. Gentleman knows that I will meet Members. I was in Scotland only a couple of months ago and, as I have said, we want to take part in direct discussions.

In the closing minutes, I want to explain the work and support that we have put in place for ex-employees of Remploy through the people help and support package. We have put £8 million into that package, which was never done in 2008. I will remind hon. Members of what happened in 2008: 1,637 disabled people left Remploy, 1,006 took voluntary redundancy and 631 retired, because they were offered enhanced amounts of money to take retirement and redundancy. We have not done that. We have secured people in a significant number of jobs and helped them.

[Jim McGovern]

Will the Minister give way?

--- Later in debate ---

[Esther McVey]

I will meet Members in Scotland and all the relevant parties.

[Mr Speaker]

Is the Minister giving way or has she concluded?

[Esther McVey]

I have concluded.

Welfare Reform (Disabled People and Carers)

Esther McVey Excerpts

Tuesday 18th December 2012 Westminster Hall

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Esther McVey)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Chope. I thank the hon. Member for Gateshead (Ian Mearns) for securing this debate on such an important issue, and I welcome all contributions to the debate about how our welfare reforms will better support disabled people, their carers and their families.

The UK has a proud history of furthering the rights of disabled people and I am pleased to say that, even in these very tough economic times, the Government continue to spend around £50 billion a year on disabled people and their services, to enable those who face the greatest barriers to participate fully in society. That compares well internationally. We spend almost double the OECD average, as a percentage of our gross domestic product, with only Norway and Iceland out of the 34 OECD countries spending more, and we spend a fifth more than the European average. More money will be spent on disability living allowance and the personal independence payment in every year up to 2015-16 than was spent in 2009-10.

We are world leaders in dealing with people with disabilities, but we should not be complacent, because disabled people are not a static group and we have to support them every which way we can. Some 3.2 million disabled people are on DLA and, over a year, the impairments of a third of them will change. Some people might get worse, and some will stay the same, but some will improve and get better and will no longer get the benefit as they will not be entitled to it. We will, however, support those who need support, or more support. The Government are committed to enabling disabled people to fulfil their potential and play a full part in society, but money needs to be targeted more effectively to ensure that support continues to be available to those who need it most, that there is a lasting impact, and that interventions provide a fair deal for the taxpayer.

Nearly half of disabled people are in work. Only 9% of working-age disabled people, and only 5% of those over the age of 25, have never worked. If we want to make a sustainable difference, we must do all we can to help more disabled people who can work to get into mainstream employment, and support them to stay in work. We know that many disabled people want to work but feel that the risk of losing their benefits is too great. By simplifying the benefits system and ensuring that work pays, universal credit will remove the financial risks involved in taking the first steps back into employment, and will increase the incentives of working, even if that work is for just a few hours a week. Universal credit will provide unconditional support to disabled people who are not expected to do any work.

Disability living allowance is an outdated benefit that has not been fundamentally reformed since it was introduced in 1992, and both sides of the House agreed that a change was needed. The reforms present an opportunity to start afresh, keeping the best elements of DLA that disabled people value, but bringing the benefit up to date and making it fit for the 21st century.

[Debbie Abrahams]

Does the Minister think that articles 19 and 20 of the United Nations convention on the rights of persons with disabilities are compromised by what the Government are doing in, for example, removing the Motability allowance from about 500,000 people?

[Esther McVey]

Of course we do not believe that the rights of disabled people are compromised. As I said at the start of my speech, we aim to strengthen and support them in every way we can.

The personal independence payment will be easier to understand and administer, and will be financially sustainable and more objective—the payment has not been so to date. It will be better targeted at those in most need. Throughout the development of the payment, we have consulted widely with disabled people and have used their views to inform policy design. It has taken more than two years of intense consultation, of listening and of working to adjust the criteria and the assessment, to get it right. We listened to people’s concerns about the speed of reassessments and, as I announced last week, we will now carry out a slower reassessment timetable to ensure that we get it right. The peak period of reassessments will not start until October 2015. Furthermore, the Government confirmed in last week’s autumn statement that disability benefits will continue to be uprated in line with inflation.

Carers provide an invaluable service to some of the most vulnerable people in our communities, and we want to ensure that they continue to get the support they need. We have committed to linking carer’s allowance to receipt of either rate of the daily living component of PIP, which is an important safeguard for carers. Our earlier analysis indicated that the link to PIP would result in broadly the same number of carers being entitled to carer’s allowance, even though there would be some churn between those who are newly entitled and others losing entitlement. Now that we have finalised the PIP assessment criteria we are, of course, considering that, and our objective remains to ensure that people caring for those with the greatest need get the right level of support.

[Barbara Keeley]

The Minister is right to comment on carers, but does she see how deeply unfair it is to apply the benefit cap to them? They will lose £105 a week. This stuff about households and the way in which they are defined is just nonsense; 5,000 carers should not lose out.

[Esther McVey]

I will explain to the hon. Lady why the changes have to be brought about. At the moment, there are 1 million spare bedrooms, 250,000 households living in overcrowded conditions and 1.8 million households on the waiting list, so we have a size criterion in the private sector, and we must get this right. We have to support people. We have to work with what we have, and we will introduce the changes because we have to get this right—it has not been right, and the previous Government left it to get into this predicament.

[Barbara Keeley]

rose—

[Esther McVey]

I will not give way.

Work must always pay more than benefits, and that is why we are introducing the cap on the amount of benefits that working-age people can receive. It is not reasonable or fair that people out of work can get an income from benefits that is greater than the average weekly wage for working households. We understand, however, that disabled people face extra costs, and that is why we are exempting from the cap households receiving DLA, PIP or the support component of the employment and support allowance.

It is fair that the benefits system should support people in public housing in the same way as it does those in private housing, but we have made changes to the housing benefit regulations, in recognition of the fact that some people need an additional room for an overnight carer who lives elsewhere. We have also listened to concerns about disabled people living in significantly adapted accommodation, and have announced additional discretionary housing payment funding of £30 million for 2013-14, to cover both that group and foster carers.

Instead of simply cutting money from everyone, we chose the more difficult but principled option of modernising the benefit and focusing support where it is needed most. PIP will be awarded on the basis of fair, consistent and objective assessments, and such assessments are not in place at the moment. The assessments have taken two years to develop. We consulted with disabled people and made key changes as we received their feedback.

Although they are different assessments that will work in different ways, we have learned from the experiences of the work capability assessment—something that the Opposition brought in—and we had to introduce Professor Harrington, who produced recommendations that we are still working through, to get this right. That will enable us more accurately and consistently to ensure that support is targeted at those who face the greatest barriers to leading independent lives. More than a fifth of PIP recipients will get both of the highest rates, worth £134.40 a week, compared with only 16% of those who are on DLA at the moment.

[Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for giving way when time is so short. I have listened carefully to everything she has said, and what I do not understand, at the end of it, is this: why will disabled people be financially worse off, when she says that everything in the garden is rosy? I truly do not understand how she can say that, when every day on which we have a surgery we face people coming in to say how they are suffering under the Government’s policies. I do not understand—

[Mr Christopher Chope (in the Chair)]

Order. That is enough.

[Esther McVey]

Once universal credit has been introduced, many disabled families will receive more support than they do now, with the higher rate of support for all disabled children who are registered blind, for example. Households with one or more disabled adults will keep up to £647 a month—some £7,000 a year—of their earnings before seeing any reduction. Universal credit also offers a more flexible system for people whose condition and ability to work fluctuate. No one whose circumstances remain the same will lose out in cash terms as a direct result of the move to universal credit—there will be protection.

As we have talked about the cumulative impact, I will say that we have published impact assessments on reforms to workplace pensions, the child support regulations, automatic enrolment, PIP, universal credit and the benefit cap—the list continues. Labour embarked on a number of reforms, including moving from incapacity benefit to employment and support allowance, the introduction of local housing, and changes for lone parents, on which no cumulative impact assessments were done, as the hon. Member for Edinburgh East (Sheila Gilmore) and the right hon. Member for Stirling (Mrs McGuire) said. It would have been far simpler to do a cumulative impact assessment, but because of the shift and the fact that the measures will not be in place until 2017-18 we have taken the advice that such an assessment would not be possible in its entirety. These are principled reforms, and we should all be proud that we are delivering them.

Independent Living Support

Esther McVey Excerpts

Tuesday 18th December 2012 Written Statements

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Esther McVey)]

The independent living fund (ILF) was created in 1988 when direct payments could not be made by local authorities and there was very limited choice and control available for disabled people within the mainstream system. Since its inception the ILF has played a valuable role in demonstrating that disabled people, including those with complex care needs, could and should be able to purchase their own support using direct cash payments. The Government wish to pay tribute to the current and previous boards of trustees as well as the ILF staff for developing a model of support based around choice and control and the principle of independent living.

However, the care system has undergone fundamental reform since the creation of the ILF. Since the mid-1990s disabled people have been able to receive direct payments and can now exercise enhanced choice and control through the mainstream system in all parts of the UK.

In December 2010, following a suspension to new applications, the Government announced that the fund would be permanently closed to new applications. The Government also committed to protecting user funding for the rest of this parliament and consulting on how users would be supported after 2015.

On 12 October 2012 the Government completed this consultation which received around 2,000 responses. The consultation asked for comments on the proposal to close the ILF in 2015 and devolve funding to local government in England and the devolved Administrations in Scotland and Wales. It also asked how this transition could be managed effectively if this proposal was adopted. The Government response to the consultation will be published later today.

It is clear from the responses to the consultation that the prospect of the ILF closing is causing current users anxiety, and that the fund has played a really important role in the lives of users and their families. But we also heard that the ILF has had its problems, that the current arrangement is unsustainable and that local authorities face challenges in supporting disabled people in a consistent and equitable manner given the complex way in which ILF funding interacts with local authority funding for each user.

We have considered all views carefully and, while I understand user concerns, I do not think the current situation is sustainable. Our commitment to maintaining current awards until 2015 remains, but on 31 March 2015 the ILF will close, and from that point local authorities in England, in line with their statutory responsibilities, will have sole responsibility for meeting the eligible care and support needs of current ILF users. The devolved Administrations in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland will determine how ILF users in each of those parts of the UK are supported within their distinct care and support systems. Funding will be devolved to each local authority and to the devolved Administrations on the basis of the pattern of expenditure in 2014-15.

To ensure a smooth transition the Government and the ILF will be working with the social care sector in England to produce a code of practice to guide local authorities on how ILF users can be supported through the transition. I expect that the devolved Administrations in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland will engage with the ILF to develop processes and guidance reflecting the distinct approaches to care and support in those parts of the UK.

The ILF will also be conducting a transfer review programme over the next two years which will ensure that the details of the care arrangements are captured and shared with their local authority and help those users not currently receiving any local authority funding to engage with the mainstream care system so they can access the services they are eligible for.

The ILF will now begin an intensive and ongoing programme of engagement with users and key stakeholders on how the transition process will work. Users can expect clear and ongoing communication throughout the next two years and through the transition process.

I would be pleased to meet Members from both sides of this House to discuss how ILF users in their area can be successfully transitioned to receiving support solely from the mainstream care and support system administered by local authorities.

Personal Independence Payments

Esther McVey Excerpts

Thursday 13th December 2012 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Esther McVey)]

The Government are committed to enabling disabled people to fulfil their potential and play a full role in society. Crucial to that is the reform of disability living allowance, a lifeline for many but one that is simply not working in its current form. In the past 10 years, the number of people claiming rose by more than a third from around 2.4 million to 3.2 million and expenditure is now far in excess of initial estimated costs.

This year the Department for Work and Pensions expected to spend more than £13 billion on DLA. As a percentage of GDP, we spend a fifth more than the EU average on disability benefits and expect to spend more in real terms in 2015-16 than we did in 2009-10. Today we are publishing the Government’s consultation responses on the draft assessment criteria and on the detailed design of the personal independence payment. Alongside that, I will be laying in draft before Parliament the main PIP regulations, which will set out the PIP entitlement conditions, assessment criteria and payment rates. We will also publish in draft what the transitional arrangements might look like. The main scheme regulations are subject to the affirmative procedure and I look forward to debating them in full early next year.

Personal independence payments will be easier to understand and administer, financially sustainable and more objective. Throughout the whole development, we have consulted widely with disabled people and we have used their views to inform policy design and implementation plans. As a result of hearing those views, we have made several key changes to the final assessment criteria and I would like to thank the individuals and organisations who contributed.

Starting with the rates, I am pleased to confirm the rates for PIP will be set at the same rates as DLA. The daily living enhanced rate of PIP will be the same as the higher rate care component of DLA, and the standard rate of the daily living component will be set at the middle-rate DLA care component. The mobility rates of PIP will be the same as the DLA rates. Furthermore, following the autumn statement, disability benefits will be protected within our uprating measures and PIP, like DLA and carer’s allowance, will continue to be uprated by inflation.

The most important thing I want to announce today is that we have listened to and acted on the huge amount of consultation we have had with disabled people and disability groups. We have made specific key changes as a result of our engagement. They are outlined in full in our consultation responses and include broadening our approach to aids and appliances, assessing ability to read and taking account of specialist orientation aids that help mobility; mirroring the linking rules for DLA, which will help to ensure continuity for people with fluctuating conditions; and new plans for contacting young people when they reach the age of 16, or their appointees, to help a smooth transition to PIP.

All the changes we have made address the genuine concerns of disabled people and the organisations representing them. Overall, their effect is to make PIP more transparent, objective, and fair.

We also listened carefully to concerns about the speed of reassessments. To that end, we will now undertake a significantly slower reassessment timetable to ensure we get this right. It will be phased in, starting with a controlled start area in the north-west and parts of the north-east of England from April 2013. We will then take new claims nationally from June 2013. From October 2013, we will start reassessing people whose DLA award is due to end, people who report a change in their condition and young people who reach the age of 16. But now the peak period of reassessments will not start until October 2015. That means we can learn from the early introduction of PIP, testing our process and making sure the assessment is working correctly before we embark on higher volumes. We will then consider the findings of our first independent review, planned for 2014, and act on them. Importantly, unless people report a change in their condition, those with a lifetime or indefinite DLA award will not be reassessed until October 2015 at the earliest.

We can now publish case load assumptions about the impact of PIP. Those figures clearly show that PIP will deliver its key objective of focusing support on those with the greatest needs. By October 2015, we will have reassessed 560,000 claimants. Of those, 160,000 will get a reduced award and 170,000 will get no award, but 230,000 will get the same or more support. Under the new criteria, almost a quarter of PIP recipients will get both of the highest rates, worth £134.40 each week, compared with only 16% on DLA.

By reforming the system and ensuring that it is fit for the 21st century we can use the money we spend on disabled people more efficiently and effectively to help those most in need.

[Mrs Anne McGuire (Stirling) (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for her statement and for the advance copy of it.

Last Thursday we had the written announcement of the closure of Remploy factories, with more than 800 redundancies. This Thursday we have a statement that is intended, according to the Government’s own estimates, to remove a disability benefit from more than 500,000 disabled people. Let me make it clear that we are in favour of an assessment for DLA, but the assessment needs to be the right one.

I shall deal first with a number of myths. There has indeed been an increase in the number of people claiming DLA. A significant number of those have protected DLA as they move into retirement. As the Minister knows, about 900,000 people currently receiving DLA fall into this category. However, the other factor that I thought she might have alluded to was that the lives of disabled people have changed dramatically since 1992, when the expectation for many of them was that they would move into residential care. Thankfully, that is not the current situation when most disabled people want to live, as far as possible, independent lives in their own community, and DLA has been crucial for many disabled people as they move into that environment of independence, choice and control over their own lives.

I listened carefully to the Minister’s statement. In the short time available to us, I have not been able to scrutinise carefully the detail of the new assessment criteria, but I shall make some initial remarks. I welcome some of the changes that the Government have made, including the broadening of approach and the mirroring of the DLA linking rules. I welcome too the fact that the Government have recognised that the initial proposal on the speed of the assessment was unrealistic, and there will now be a significantly slower reassessment process. Nevertheless, we are still looking at June 2013 as the vesting date for new cases and we have not yet properly scrutinised the new criteria, so although I welcome the change in the speed of the assessment, I think there are still some issues about the new cases coming on in June 2013.

We will apply stringent tests to the new PIP assessments. Let me ask the Minister some specific questions. Given that DLA support allows many people to travel to work, will the Government give a commitment that it will not be taken away from anyone who is in work? In other words, if they are currently on DLA and are currently in employment, will the Minister give a commitment that the financial integrity of disabled people who go to work will not be undermined?

The Government are protecting under-16s and those over the age of 65, so how does the Minister’s claim that she is maintaining the overall budget square with that protection at each end of the age spectrum? If one looks at the demography, one clearly sees that there is a disproportionate impact on working-age disabled people. The Minister makes great play of the fact that the budget will remain the same, but I want to remind her of the comments made by her predecessor and other Members on the Front Bench, including the Secretary of State, that greater support would be given to those with the most severe disability. I wonder how that marries with the fact that the rates for the new PIP will be exactly the same as the current rates for DLA. That seems to be a conundrum.

The new criteria must not push people into social care or into the NHS. What discussions has the Minister had with the Department for Communities and Local Government, local government and the NHS to consider the impact as 500,000 people—over a longer period, admittedly—lose benefit?

May I also ask the Minister what the impact on carers will be? I think that there was a little confusion in her answers about carers on Monday, so I want to give her another opportunity. Carers UK estimates that 10,000 people who currently receive carers allowance could lose it as a result of the changes. Has she made any estimate?

I appreciate that this is a short statement so I will give a shortish response but I say once again to the Minister and to the Secretary of State that there is a whole raft of welfare reform changes that are impacting on the lives of disabled people. The Government have the facility and capacity, with hundreds of thousands of civil servants, so why do they not undertake a cumulative impact assessment of the effect of their changes on disabled people?

[Esther McVey]

I welcome the right hon. Lady’s words and her acknowledgment of the listening and consultation that we have done and the changes that we have made. I cannot give the assurances that she would like on PIP, as those were not the case for people of working age under DLA. What we can say is that everybody will be viewed as an individual when it comes to assessing their needs and that more people will get the higher awards—nearly 25% of those on PIP will be on the highest awards. As for carers, one thing we all agree on is that they do an incredible job. We will support them as best we can. I can also announce today that the links for carers that were in place under DLA will also be in place under PIP.

The Opposition never conducted a cumulative impact assessment when they were in government, and for good reason. I understand that it would be impossible to measure the impact of such large reforms and changes, particularly as they will not be in place until 2017 and the case load is dynamic. Even the Institute for Fiscal Studies says that it would be nearly impossible to do that. As I have said, I am delighted that we have listened to the disability groups, taken on board what they have said and made the changes they asked for.

[Nigel Mills (Amber Valley) (Con)]

Does the Minister welcome, as I do, the fairer way that fluctuating conditions, mental health conditions and cognitive impairments are assessed under PIP, in contrast to DLA, which tended to focus solely on physical impairment?

[Esther McVey]

I thank my hon. Friend, who quite rightly states that PIP is intended to look at fluctuating conditions, take all the impacts into assessment and deliver for those people.

[Dame Anne Begg (Aberdeen South) (Lab)]

I welcome the Government’s decision to delay the implementation of PIP and hope that they will continue to keep the timetable under review, because I suspect that it might not be as easy as the Minister implies it will be today. I advise her that she worries disabled people very much when she talks about the increase in the costs of DLA. Any increase in DLA, unlike for out-of-work benefits, is not necessarily a bad thing, because if more people are getting more DLA, more people are living independent lives and engaging in society in a way that they were not doing previously. Of course, any money spent on DLA or PIP is often money saved in other budgets, whether in the NHS or in social care. I ask the Minister to be very careful about the language she uses, because many disabled people are very worried about the implementation of PIP and what it will mean for their lives. Any words about saving money makes them think that they will be the victims of some kind of economic drive by the Government to ensure that they are saving on the budget for the very vulnerable. That money is spent very wisely on giving them an independent life.

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

Order. Just before the Minister answers, I remind Members that we must have much shorter questions, because I want to get everybody in.

[Esther McVey]

I thank the hon. Lady for her comments. I will of course be very aware of the language I use, and I hear what she says most clearly. I am glad that she is pleased about the slower delivery of PIP and about the independent review that will take place in 2014 so that we can ensure that what is happening is correct and that we are delivering what is intended. We continue to spend over £13 billion, and we will be spending more in every year up to 2015-16 than was spent in 2009-10. I am fully aware of her concerns and we have taken them on board.

[Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD)]

I welcome the changes to the descriptors for blind and deaf people and pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Eastbourne (Stephen Lloyd), who has been working with the Department on this issue. These changes will enable blind and deaf people to access much more focused support for their conditions. Will the Minister outline that to the House?

[Esther McVey]

My hon. Friend is right. We listened and consulted, and we have made the alterations required for blind and deaf people in relation to their ability to communicate, make journeys, and so on.

[Glenda Jackson (Hampstead and Kilburn) (Lab)]

The Minister will be aware that the majority of the recipients of DLA/PIP and their carers are dependent on the services provided by local authorities. However, because of the Government’s savage financial cuts for local authorities, those services are being eroded or removed, or in some instances charged for. As part of the impact assessment, will she examine in no small detail whether the services that enable disabled people to live independent lives will still be available or whether the cost of buying them will become prohibitive?

[Esther McVey]

We are working with local government to ensure that we are delivering on this. It is about what is best for disabled people and focused support for the billions of pounds that we are spending.

[Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con)]

I welcome my hon. Friend’s statement. May I tell her to stick to her guns on this subject and ignore the siren voices from those on the Labour Benches who seem to believe in a test, but one that nobody can fail, and want to advocate unlimited levels of welfare? Given that we have limited resources, most of my constituents will support the principle that the money should be directed at the people who need it instead of at the people who do not, so may I urge her to continue along that path?

[Esther McVey]

I thank my hon. Friend. This is a principled reform. It is about adding integrity and rigour to the system. It is about fairness and transparency, and helping those who need this support the most.

[Mr David Blunkett (Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough) (Lab)]

I think that the comment by the hon. Member for Shipley (Philip Davies) was a disgrace.

May I suggest to the Minister that we will not fully understand the impact of her announcement until we see the revised assessment criteria? Welcome as they are for blind and deaf people, will they have the continuing perversity of penalising blind people for having a go at undertaking journeys that they could undertake with DLA but could not undertake unless they had the support that PIP is intended to provide for them? In other words, will they avoid the perversity that was built into the previous assessment criteria and, above all, continue with the higher rate of the mobility component, which was unanimously agreed by this House just two and a half years ago and was threatened under the previous draft assessment regulations for PIP?

[Esther McVey]

I will continue to engage with the right hon. Gentleman; we met only yesterday. We inherited a confused system in which over 50% of people did not have medical support for their claims and 71% of people were left on indefinite awards. We want to engage with people and ensure that those who are most in need of support will get it. We do not want to penalise anybody who is trying their best. It is not about that; it is about offering support where it is most needed.

[Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con)]

Will my hon. Friend confirm that the Government will spend about £50 billion on services and benefits for disabled people, and will she set out how that compares and contrasts with similar countries?

[Esther McVey]

I can indeed confirm that my hon. Friend is right. We continue to spend £50 billion a year on support for disabled people, which is a fifth higher than the EU average. We are a world leader in how we deal with people with disabilities.

[Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP)]

I welcome the statement and the delay in the movement of customers with indefinite awards for 21 months. That is a sign of listening to people’s concerns. Will the Minister reassure me that she and the Department will continue to work closely with the Department for Social Development in Northern Ireland, given the concerns in that part of the United Kingdom about the impact of some of these reforms, particularly in deprived areas?

[Esther McVey]

I welcome the right hon. Gentleman’s words. I will indeed work closely with the social development agency and I will be going to Ireland in the not-too-distant future.

[Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD)]

I thank the hon. Lady for keeping her predecessor’s promise to maintain the mobility component in the new PIP and not to take it away from local authority care home residents. She is listening and the Government are clearly learning from the experience of the work capability assessment. Who will she be listening to in the review of the early experience of her proposed new personal independence payments, in order to ensure that, when more people are transferred to PIP in 2015, we get the process right?

[Esther McVey]

I thank my hon. Friend for his question. We have been listening for the past 18 months. We have consulted all disability groups and disabled people and have engaged with absolutely everyone. We will continue to do that. There will be an independent review in 2014 and we will adjust, listen and do what we need to do to ensure that we deliver the correct benefit.

[Natascha Engel (North East Derbyshire) (Lab)]

The House of Commons Library note on the personal independence payment has a large section on how seriously injured armed forces personnel and veterans will be affected. The Minister’s statement was silent on that. Will she outline how that group will be affected and, most importantly, will she define what is meant by “seriously injured”, because unless that is clearly defined they could simply be weasel words?

[Esther McVey]

I thank the hon. Lady for her question. That was not in my statement because it will come under a separate system under the Ministry of Defence. The support will be there and it will come through a different system.

[Nick de Bois (Enfield North) (Con)]

I, like everyone in this House, have tremendous respect for the work done by carers. For the sake of clarity, will the Minister confirm that the rules linking carers allowance to PIP will be exactly the same as those for the DLA?

[Esther McVey]

I can indeed confirm that.

[Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab)]

Given the Minister’s announcement that, although 230,000 will get the same or more support, 330,000 people will get no or less support, I assume that there will be a large number of appeals. At the moment, people who are appealing against rulings on the employment and support allowance in my constituency—80% of them are successful—are waiting for more than a year for their appeals to be heard. Is the Minister able to give any guarantee on how long the appeals against refusal of DLA will take? Will she set a maximum length of time and tell us that there will be enough staff to open the envelopes from people who make appeals, let alone administer them, which is not what is happening at present with ESA appeals?

[Esther McVey]

I recognise the points made by the hon. Lady. We will speed up the process. We have commitments from the Justice Department that it will have enough staff in place, and we will do this as best we can.

[Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)]

I will follow on from the hon. Member for Slough (Fiona Mactaggart), because she raised a real issue. Every Member in this House will have had that problem in their constituency. Although the whole House welcomes what the Government are trying to do, there is a practical problem with appeals. Will the Minister at least look into that a little further?

[Esther McVey]

My hon. Friend is correct that that is a priority for us. However, I reiterate that this is a completely different system. PIP is a brand-new system and a brand-new benefit. It has new localised systems and it will be delivered locally. Therefore, it has been created in a much better format.

[Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab)]

What is the Minister’s estimate of the number of people on carer’s allowance who will lose out after this statement?

[Esther McVey]

As it stands, the same number of people will be on carer’s allowance, although they might be different people. As at the moment, people will be assessed and reassessed, and some people will move from having carer’s allowance to not having it, but the overall number will stay roughly the same.

[Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con)]

I welcome the Minister’s statement. Clearly, the Government have listened to the concerns of disabled people and made the appropriate changes. I particularly welcome the new timetable, which I hope will ensure that PIP is delivered correctly. Of course, an extended timetable also leads to anxiety and uncertainty among the recipients of the benefit. Will she assure me that everything possible will be done to ensure that individuals, through the various agencies and support groups, know exactly what their situation is?

[Esther McVey]

I can confirm that. What we are doing is all about a smooth transition and getting the implementation correct.

[Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) (Lab)]

When my right hon. Friends the Members for Stirling (Mrs McGuire) and for Birmingham, Hodge Hill (Mr Byrne) and I met members of the disability community in Scotland recently in my constituency, they expressed concerns that tens of thousands of disabled people in Scotland might lose their access to passported benefits and their ability to get to work under the new system. With disabled unemployment at a record high, would it not be wrong to create new barriers to disabled people keeping their jobs? Will the Minister guarantee that no disabled person who is currently in work will be worse off as a result of these reforms?

[Esther McVey]

As the hon. Gentleman will know, it has always been the case under DLA that when people are reassessed, some people stay on the same benefit, some people get more and some people get less. That will be exactly the same under PIP. The difference is that there was no systematic review under DLA, but there will be under PIP.

[Mike Crockart (Edinburgh West) (LD)]

An answer that I received to a recent parliamentary question indicated that between October 2008 and May 2012, 59% of initial work capability assessments for employment and support allowance resulted in those being assessed being awarded no points at all. Will the Minister assure me and the many recipients of DLA in Edinburgh West that all possible efforts are being made to ensure that the design and delivery of the assessments for PIPs will ensure that more decisions are correct the first time around?

[Esther McVey]

Let me reiterate once again that this is a totally different system to ESA. It is a totally different benefit altogether. In fact, we inherited ESA from the previous Government. It was wrong in 2009 and we have put in place many steps to improve the system, including putting it through three reviews. I assure my hon. Friend that we have listened to the various disability groups and organisations, and that we will get this right.

[Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)]

We have put men on the moon, so I do not understand it when the Minister says that it is impossible to do a cumulative impact assessment. Surely that is not beyond the wit of the hundreds of civil servants sitting in her Department.

--- Later in debate ---

[Esther McVey]

The hon. Lady is right that we have put men on the moon. However, she will also know that her Government never did such an impact assessment, and for good reason. On such wide-ranging reforms, it is impossible to make an accurate assessment. That is particularly the case with these reforms because they will not be in place until 2017-18 and there is such a dynamic case load. Even the Institute for Fiscal Studies says that it would be near impossible.

[Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab)]

I am glad the Minister was able to confirm that we have put a man on the moon.

Let me return to the point about appeals, which is crucial. Surely if we get the assessment process right and it is fair, there will be no need for appeals and we will not see so many disabled people coming to my surgery—and those of Members across the House—who are worried about their financial futures.

[Esther McVey]

All sides of the House wanted reform. Everybody said that reform was right, but the difference is that this Government are making that reform to ensure we have a benefit that is fair and correct, right for the 21st century, and that has rigour put into it.

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

Last, but certainly not least, Julie Hilling.

[Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab)]

I, too, am really shocked that the Minister is not going to carry out an impact assessment, and I wonder whether she will answer the question this time. Will blind people get the equivalent of the higher-rate mobility component of DLA?

[Esther McVey]

Every individual will be assessed on their individual needs. We have taken significant soundings and listened to all the various groups. Each person will get the benefit that they require.

Bill presented

Succession to the Crown Bill

Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)

The Deputy Prime Minister, supported by the Prime Minister, Secretary William Hague, Mr Chancellor of the Exchequer, Secretary Vince Cable, Mr Secretary Moore, Danny Alexander and Miss Chloe Smith, presented a Bill to make succession to the Crown not depend on gender; to make provision about Royal Marriages; and for connected purposes.

Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Monday 17 December 2012, and to be printed (Bill 110) with explanatory notes (Bill 110-EN).

Oral Answers to Questions

Esther McVey Excerpts

Monday 10th December 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Peter Hain (Neath) (Lab)]

4. What assessment he has made of the effect of changes to housing benefit rules on married disabled people living in specially adapted two-bedroom properties.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Esther McVey)]

When developing the social sector size criteria policy, we considered the impacts on disabled people, as set out in our impact assessment. We have added a further £30 million a year to the discretionary housing payments fund from 2013-14 aimed specifically at those in adapted accommodation and foster carers.

[Mr Hain]

Why will the Government not withdraw the housing benefit changes, which are having a devastating impact on disabled people, including my constituents, Mr and Mrs Harris of Seven Sisters, Neath, about whom I have written to the Secretary of State? They live in an adapted property. Mrs Harris cannot sleep at night, Mr Harris is a full-time carer for her and they need two bedrooms, but the draconian and oppressive changes the Government are implementing mean that there is funding for only one bedroom. There is a shortage of one-bedroom properties in Neath and they cannot afford the extra rent. It is time the Government withdrew these policies. Do they not understand that the changes will have a massive impact on the most vulnerable people in our society? The Secretary of State started off with the seemingly sincere motive of tackling poverty, but he has ended up by punitively and callously hitting the most vulnerable.

[Esther McVey]

That is not the case. An impact assessment has been done and £30 million of discretionary funds have been put in place for exactly the people the right hon. Gentleman is talking about. We have to do this in the round. There are a million spare rooms in the country and millions of people on waiting lists and in overcrowded homes, and we have to find properties for them, too. The case that he mentions, however, is precisely the sort the discretionary fund will be for.

[Sir Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)]

As co-chair of the all-party group on carers, my understanding is that, where a person requires a full-time carer, local authorities may provide housing benefit for them to have a two-bedroom property. Have I misunderstood the situation, or have I understood it correctly?

[Esther McVey]

My hon. Friend has understood correctly and explained it perfectly.

[Natascha Engel (North East Derbyshire) (Lab)]

What will be the total estimated cost of moving people into smaller homes as a result of the bedroom tax, and how does that compare with the total estimated saving to be made?

[Esther McVey]

There are major savings to be made and continual assessments will be done, but, as I said, in the round we have to find accommodation for other people and people have to understand the cost of the accommodation that fits their need.

[Sir Nick Harvey (North Devon) (LD)]

Is my hon. Friend aware of the anxiety felt by those who have received notification that they might be affected by these changes? Will she guarantee help not only for those we have heard about, whose homes have been adapted, but for those with noisy respiratory equipment, for example, with whom it would be unreasonable to expect others to share a bedroom at night? How long will this fund last, and is she confident it will cover all those cases?

[Esther McVey]

Yes, I am confident it will. Guidance will go to local authorities on how to use the discretionary housing payments and all factors will be taken into account, including those concerning my hon. Friend’s constituents.

[Mrs Anne McGuire (Stirling) (Lab)]

Disabled people across the country currently have to cope with a torrent of piecemeal welfare reform changes that will impact on their lives. Disability Rights UK, the Joint Committee on Human Rights, the Equality and Human Rights Commission, the Royal National Institute of Blind People, Mind, Scope, Leonard Cheshire Disability and Carers UK, among others, including tens of thousand of people who have signed Pat’s petition, have asked the Minister to conduct a cumulative impact assessment. If she is confident she is doing the best for disabled people, why does she not listen to them and conduct a cumulative impact assessment? Why does she stubbornly refuse to do one?

[Esther McVey]

I am afraid that the right hon. Lady never did one when Labour was in government. Disabled people remain my top priority. Let me reiterate to the House that the disability living allowance, carer’s allowance and the support group of the employment and support allowance will all increase with CPI. We have protected the disability support programme in its entirety, and an extra £15 million is going into Access to Work.

[Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con)]

5. What plans he has to increase access to the new enterprise allowance.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mrs Sharon Hodgson (Washington and Sunderland West) (Lab)]

10. Whether it is his policy that people with cystic fibrosis should be eligible for disability living allowance.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Esther McVey)]

Disability living allowance is available to any severely disabled person, including those with cystic fibrosis, who meets the eligibility conditions.

[Mrs Hodgson]

I was recently contacted by my constituent, Peter Chisholm, whose 18-year-old daughter Kate suffers from severe cystic fibrosis. Such is the severity of her condition that she is currently in hospital receiving physiotherapy and taking 50 tablets a day. Kate has been refused DLA and her appeal has been turned down. Does the Minister think that that is right, and if not will she ensure that Kate gets the support she so badly needs?

[Esther McVey]

I know that this issue is of great interest to the hon. Lady, sitting as she does on the Children, Schools and Families Select Committee, so I listened with great interest—[Interruption.] Apologies, but I am correct in saying that you have a great interest in this subject. I do not know the specific issues relating to the case that you mention. We will obviously look into it, but I have to say that this constituent of yours would have been assessed under the DLA arrangements—it is for that very reason that we are bringing in the new personal independence payment assessment and criteria.

[Mr Speaker]

Let me remind the Minister that her answers should be addressed through the Chair. She has just referred to my constituent. I would have been delighted to have had my constituent addressed, but it would not have been appropriate here and now. We will move on.

--- Later in debate ---

[Paul Maynard (Blackpool North and Cleveleys) (Con)]

13. What plans he has to improve the Access to Work scheme for disabled people.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Esther McVey)]

We are undertaking a radical review of Access to Work so that it can help more disabled people into mainstream employment. We are implementing several improvements, including a fast-track assessment process and the removal of cost-sharing for small employers, as well as working with an expert panel to consider how the scheme can be further personalised and made to work more effectively for disabled people and their employers.

[Paul Maynard]

I welcome the Government’s continued commitment to the Access to Work scheme. May I draw the Minister’s attention to the report of the all-party parliamentary group for young disabled people, which I chair? One of its recommendations was that the scheme should be extended to both internships and long-term voluntary work placements. Will the Minister undertake to consider that recommendation?

[Esther McVey]

The policy intent of Access to Work is to support disabled people into paid sustainable work, and as such it is not offered for unpaid internships or voluntary work. However, from 1 October this year Access to Work has been available to young disabled people undertaking work experience under the Youth Contract. I would like to meet my hon. Friend to talk further about this matter.

[Mr Frank Roy (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)]

The Remploy factory in Wishaw was forced to close in the summer, and despite Government promises made from the Dispatch Box, not one single worker—not one—from Remploy in Wishaw has now got a job. Why?

[Esther McVey]

We are working hard to get everybody from all the Remploy factories into work. When I last talked about this matter in the House, only 35 of those people across the country had got into work, but I am pleased to say that we have now more than quadrupled that number, to 148. We have looked into the personalised support, and we are adapting it every day. We are working on it, and we will make it better.

[Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)]

14. For what reason people who receive carer’s allowance are not exempt from the benefits cap.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Esther McVey)]

Although there is no specific exemption from the cap for carers, in practice most carers will be exempt because their partner or child is in receipt of disability living allowance. In addition, there are exemptions for people in work that can also apply to carers. Under universal credit, carers need only work the equivalent of 16 hours a week at the national minimum wage to be exempt.

[Andrew Gwynne]

I am grateful to the Minister for that response, but it is not quite correct. Close reading of the regulations indicates that a household comprising parents and a disabled adult dependant receiving disability living allowance will not be exempt from the cap, despite the Minister’s promises that they would be. I am sure the Minister appreciates that this is causing great anxiety to those potentially affected. Will she undertake to fix this problem?

[Esther McVey]

Should there be another adult in the house, that is then a separate household, so both have to be assessed separately. However, I reiterate the fact that those who are exempt from the cap include those on working tax credit, all households with someone who is in receipt of a disability-related benefit, war widows and widowers, and those in receipt of war disablement pensions. A lot of people are therefore exempt.

[Ms Karen Buck (Westminster North) (Lab)]

Ministers have repeatedly stressed that a household containing anyone in receipt of disability living allowance will not be affected by the benefit cap, but constituents of mine who have an adult disabled child are now being told they will be affected by the cap because the regulations appear to state that if a family has an adult severely disabled person living in the household, that person is not a member of the household. Please will the Minister clarify whether the benefit cap will apply to someone who is looking after a severely disabled adult child?

[Esther McVey]

I will reiterate what a household is: a household is a basic family unit, and for the purposes of paying out-of-work benefits that will be a single adult or a couple and children, so once another adult is in the house, that is a separate household. [Interruption.] That has been the definition for a very long time. However, in the instances the hon. Lady mentions, discretionary payments are available and will come to fruition. [Interruption.] There is no point in Opposition Members huffing and puffing. That is the situation, and an extra £30 million has been put in place for this. [Interruption.]

[Mr Speaker]

Order. I have no idea what the hon. Member for Glasgow North West (John Robertson) had for breakfast this morning. All I can say is that he is a bear growling exceptionally, and some would say excessively, loudly this afternoon.

--- Later in debate ---

[Tracey Crouch (Chatham and Aylesford) (Con)]

T2. Later this week, my constituent Danny Shingles will go into hospital to have a debilitating polycystic kidney removed. I am sure that the Secretary of State is aware that cysts on kidneys burst, poisoning the body and creating great discomfort. While preparing for his operation Mr Shingles is also having to appeal a decision to stop his disability living allowance and employment and support allowance, despite the fact that after his operation he will be entitled to have them again. This is causing my constituent much unnecessary stress, so will the Secretary of State review the guidance given to assessors to ensure that all factors, including the scheduling of operations, are taken into account when making decisions about whether someone is entitled to benefits?

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Esther McVey)]

I would like to meet my hon. Friend to discuss this case, as I do not know the full facts.

[Mr Liam Byrne (Birmingham, Hodge Hill) (Lab)]

Will the Secretary of State set out for the House the projected rise in the dole bill as a result of the Budget?

Remploy

Esther McVey Excerpts

Monday 10th December 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Liam Byrne (Birmingham, Hodge Hill) (Lab)]

(Urgent Question): To ask the Minister if she will make a statement about the end of Remploy.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Esther McVey)]

I am grateful for the opportunity to provide the House with an update on Remploy. On Thursday, I laid a written statement in the House about stage 2 of Remploy factories—a continuation of a process announced by my predecessor, now Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport, on 7 March. She then gave a further statement to the House on 10 July. In it, the Remploy board announced the outcome of its analysis of the remaining stage 2 businesses. Remploy will now start a commercial process to mitigate potential job losses. At this stage, no final decisions have been made about factory closures or redundancies. Our priority throughout the process is to safeguard jobs, which is why we are offering a wage subsidy of £6,400 for each disabled employee to encourage interested parties to come forward.

We want substantially to improve employment opportunities for all disabled people. We engaged with disability experts and organisations to undertake a review of our specialist disability employment support. The Sayce review findings and the responses we received to the public consultation strongly supported the idea of moving away from the Remploy model for disabled people.

The first point that I want to make is that a sixth of the money for the sustained employment of disabled people is currently spent on supporting the Remploy factories, which means that a sixth of the budget went to 2,200 out of 6.9 million disabled people of working age. I remind the House that, before the last Government closed 29 factories, the right hon. Member for Neath (Mr Hain) said:

“The reality is that without modernisation Remploy deficits would obliterate our other programmes to help disabled people into mainstream work.”—[Official Report, 29 November 2007; Vol. 468, c. 448.]

The current Government are committed to protecting the budget of £320 million for specialist disability employment support, but we know that we must use that money much more effectively to help far more disabled people to fulfil their ambitions and move into mainstream work. In these economically difficult times, it is more important than ever for the Government’s disability employment programmes to represent value for money and to deliver the most effective possible support to help disabled people to find and keep employment.

Remploy has faced an uncertain future for many years, and in 2008, under the last Government, 29 factories closed. A modernisation plan failed, having set excessively ambitious targets which were never achieved. The right hon. Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill (Mr Byrne) knows that only too well. As a result, the factories have become increasingly loss-making, and their future has become more precarious. That has left all staff in a vulnerable position. The answer must be to find them work and help them into mainstream employment, and the changes that are being made are focused on ensuring that they all obtain long-term, sustainable jobs.

I do, of course, understand how unsettling it is for Remploy employees to find that they are faced with the threat of losing their jobs. I know that a large number of them have given many years of service, and that they now face the prospect of looking for alternative work. That is why we set up the people help and support package especially for them. All disabled Remploy staff affected by the changes who give their consent will be guaranteed access to £8 million of tailored support to help them to find alternative employment. Despite a slow start, we are making a number of improvements to the package. Over the past three months, 148 of the 960 or so disabled people who have come forward to work with us and our personal case workers have found employment. We have every expectation that the number of job outcomes, which is already increasing daily, will increase further. We are monitoring and tracking these people and helping them to obtain work, which is something that the last Government never did when they closed their factories.

Jobcentre Plus reached agreements today with five major national employers—some of the biggest high street retailers and restaurant chains—to help ex-Remploy staff into work, and they will also have access to support from Remploy Employment Services. Since 2010, despite the tough economic climate, it has found 50,000 jobs for disabled and disadvantaged people, many of whose disabilities are similar to those of staff in Remploy factories.

Let me give a few instances of former Remploy staff who have begun work in a vast array of jobs. Four former employees from Aberdeen have started a co-operative business in their old factory. Red Rock Data Processing Services in Wigan is reopening its factory and employing former Remploy staff. Ex-employees have found work at Dekko Windows in Oldham, Camborne college in Penzance and Hayman Construction in Plymouth, and at Asda. All those people are moving into mainstream work, and I expect that, as the support continues, we shall see an increasing number of such good outcomes.

I have met many Members on both sides of the House to discuss this matter, and I shall continue to do so. We seek the best possible outcomes and opportunities for all Remploy staff.

[Mr Speaker]

I am grateful to the Minister. She did somewhat exceed her allotted time, which simply means that I must allow some modest latitude to the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill (Mr Byrne).

[Mr Liam Byrne (Birmingham, Hodge Hill) (Lab)]

May I start, Mr Speaker, by saying how grateful we are to you for allowing this urgent question this afternoon? I say to the Minister that, frankly, it is shameful that her Department tried to sneak out through a written ministerial statement last week news that it was shutting a further 10 Remploy factories and putting five more at risk. It was a mark of contempt for Remploy workers that the Minister sought to duck a debate in the House.

This statement marks the destruction of a tradition that stretches back to the foundation of the welfare state. If there is an ideal that Labour Members cherish, it is that the welfare state should be strong on the ethic to work and strong on the ethic to care. Remploy epitomises both those ideals, yet over the past year all we have heard from the Government is one plan after another to close Remploy down, without any regard for how its workers are connected to a future—to jobs and prosperity in the years to come.

Months ago, a Minister from this Department promised the House that the Government would move hell and high water to ensure sacked Remploy workers got into jobs, yet today about 90% of those workers sacked this year are still out of work. That is not good enough. The Work programme is not delivering for disabled people. Fewer than 1% of people on employment and support allowance have been found sustained jobs. When we undertook the modernisation of Remploy, we set aside £500 million to help support the process. I am afraid that is in sharp contrast to what we heard from the Minister this afternoon.

It is now apparent that this closure programme must stop until we are clear about what has gone wrong in getting sacked Remploy workers back into jobs. We need to learn far more from the example set by the Welsh Government, who have already provided 97 opportunities for 250 workers who have lost their jobs. The Minister will have heard, as I have, just how important this is, because she will know, as I do, that for Remploy workers their job is far more than simply an income; it is their connection to a social network and to a world outside. It is often everything to them.

Let me ask the Minister this: will she apologise to the House for trying to sneak this announcement out through a written ministerial statement? Especially after the Secretary of State dismissed Remploy workers as doing nothing more than sitting around drinking coffee, I think that that would be an appropriate gesture. Will the Minister stop this closure programme until we have a report on the table from her Department about what has gone wrong in getting the workers sacked earlier this year back into jobs? Specifically in respect of Wales, will she take up the proposal of Leighton Andrews that two factories in Wales be transferred to the Welsh Government, because although she does not feel they have a future, the Government of Wales certainly do?

[Esther McVey]

I am quite taken aback by your bluster and, I have to say, false words. Your words would have far more emphasis—[Interruption.] The right hon. Gentleman’s words would have far more worth were it not for the fact that he put these plans into place in the first instance. Indeed, he closed 29 factories in 2008 and rightly put in a lot of money, but it was put into a failed modernisation plan with targets that could never be reached. A target of 130% was expected of public sector contracts; that never happened. Worse still, he has the temerity to talk to us about what we have put in place for individual workers when he did absolutely nothing; he did not track them, and he did not put in place any personalised casework or any support. That is really rather shocking.

The right hon. Gentleman might be making cheap jibes and cheap statements on the back of these workers, but frankly I find that rather disingenuous and beneath him. He has a failed modernisation plan behind him, and also failed support, and he was also the chap who said that no money was left in the bank. I will not apologise, therefore, because, frankly, I am picking up his pieces.

[Mr Speaker]

Order. I am sure the Minister was not suggesting that anybody would knowingly mislead the House.

[Esther McVey]

No.

[Mr Speaker]

I was guilty of many cheap gibes and bluster as a Back Bencher, but the Speaker does not engage in cheap gibes or bluster. Just as long as we are clear about that—very good.

[Conor Burns (Bournemouth West) (Con)]

The Minister will be aware that the Remploy factory at Alder Hills in my constituency closed; she wrote to tell me that it was closing in her first days in her new job. She will also be aware that Giles Verdon and his team at that factory were working to put together a community interest company. May I tell her that in all their dealings with Remploy centrally phone calls went unanswered, information requested was not forthcoming and deadlines were too short? They did not stand a chance. Will she agree to meet me and representatives of Remploy in Poole so that they can tell her about their experience in dealing with Remploy centrally?

[Esther McVey]

I will indeed meet my hon. Friend, just as I have met so many hon. Members to discuss the best way forward and to learn from what has happened so far.

[Jim McGovern (Dundee West) (Lab)]

I am on record as saying that I have been to the Remploy factory in my constituency so often that I am on first-name terms with most of the work force, and I have always regarded them as a happy work force who are reasonably well paid and happy to be where they are. This morning, I visited that factory and, needless to say, found that the work force are distraught at the fact that they are going to be closed down. What succour can the Minister give the Remploy work force in Dundee? What sort of perverse policy is it for a Government to throw the disabled work force on the dole and then tell them that if they cannot find alternative work they should work for nothing?

[Esther McVey]

An announcement has been made and there is now a 90-day consultation to find out who would wish to take over the business as an ongoing concern; otherwise it is open for people to buy the assets to open up social enterprises, as has happened in Aberdeen and is happening in Wigan. I also wish to mention at this point that in the hon. Gentleman’s constituency there are 10,300 people with disabilities, while at the factory itself there are 37, and that last year alone Remploy Employment Services did find 169 people jobs. First we have to go through the process and see what we can do for the good people of Dundee.

[Paul Maynard (Blackpool North and Cleveleys) (Con)]

Labour Members are very keen to list disability charities when they happen to be in agreement with each other. Having listened to Labour Members preach equality for the past hour on the previous urgent question, will the Minister remind me how many disability charities—and which ones—made a contribution to the Sayce review supporting the Labour party’s policy of segregated employment for the disabled?

--- Later in debate ---

[Esther McVey]

The vast bulk of charities agreed with the Liz Sayce review and added to that, so my hon. Friend makes a very good point.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Bryant]

Thank you very much, Mr Speaker.

The real problem at the Remploy factory in the Rhondda is that, although the vast majority of disabled people in the Rhondda are in mainstream employment, we have 72 people there who are affected, some of whom have been transferred from a previous Remploy factory that was closed, and we have rising unemployment and very little prospect of jobs for people. So will the Minister please take up the offer that Leighton Andrews, the Assembly Member for the Rhondda and also a Minister in the Welsh Assembly Government, made to take over the Welsh factories with their assets, so that if she is not prepared to do anything to protect these jobs, the Welsh Assembly can?

[Esther McVey]

I will correct the hon. Gentleman; we are doing everything we can to protect jobs for disabled people. I spoke with Leighton Andrews last week on what we have agreed to put in place; obviously the commercial process has to be gone through correctly, as other people might put a better offer on the table. What we have to do is get the best offer for those disabled people, whom we so want to help. Should Leighton Andrews have the best offer, that will be the path we take.

[Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con)]

My hon. Friend will know that I did not favour closing any Remploy factories, but does she agree that it sticks in the throat to hear the feigned outrage of the Opposition, who closed 29 factories without a care in the world? Nobody could do more than she is doing to try to help these disabled people to find jobs. May I urge her to continue on that path, because at a time when so many people do not want to work we should do everything we can to help these people, who do want to work?

[Esther McVey]

I totally agree with my hon. Friend and we are working tirelessly every day. We are getting updates every day on how we are getting the ex-Remploy staff into work. As I mentioned earlier, when I first came to the House 35 people had a job. Within three months, by beefing up the personal support work, we have more than quadrupled the number who get into work. We are doing a positive job and we will continue to do so.

[Dame Anne Begg (Aberdeen South) (Lab)]

May I just clarify what the Minister said about the situation in Aberdeen? A group of workers have set up a public interest company, but they have had to move out of the Remploy factory because it is now closed. The group of workers who have managed to get themselves together and continue to produce textiles have managed that despite Remploy, not because of it.

Will the Minister tell us what the Government’s position is on sheltered workshops and sheltered placements for disabled workers? Are they in favour of them or not?

[Esther McVey]

What we are in favour of is getting as many disabled people as possible—there are 6.9 million disabled people of working age—into mainstream work. If anything will help with that journey for those people, we will be in favour of it.

[Stephen Mosley (City of Chester) (Con)]

Last year, the Remploy factories made a £70 million loss. I listened carefully to the shadow Secretary of State and he gave no indication of how that loss could be made up. Has my hon. Friend the Minister received any representations from Opposition Members on how that £70 million gap can be filled?

[Esther McVey]

My hon. Friend makes a good point. No, I have heard no ideas on how that gap would be filled—it would be another spending commitment from the Opposition requiring more money. They have lots of things they oppose but no ideas about what they would actually do.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

The previous Government closed the Brynaman Remploy factory in my constituency. In the space of a year, this Government have announced the closure of the remaining nine Remploy factories in Wales—different Government, same policy. Why not just agree to the Welsh Government’s reasonable request for devolved control over the Welsh Remploy sites?

[Esther McVey]

I feel that I have already answered that question in responding to the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant). It is part of a commercial process, and should that offer be the best for the staff at Remploy, that will be the path we take. Should somebody else come up with a better offer to support more disabled people, we will obviously pursue that, because we want to see more of these people in work.

[Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)]

Can my hon. Friend explain to me what special arrangements might be made for Remploy employees who lose their jobs but who were disabled in the service of their country?

[Esther McVey]

We have significant measures in place for ex-members of the armed forces which are the responsibility of the Ministry of Defence but are supported by the DWP.

[Julie Elliott (Sunderland Central) (Lab)]

The Minister did not come to the Chamber to inform the House of the closure of a number of Remploy factories, including the one in my constituency. The local trade union rep from GMB has not yet been invited into the factory, in breach of the accord. Does she feel that that is an appropriate way to treat Remploy workers, some of the most vulnerable workers in our society, who are in danger of losing their jobs?

[Esther McVey]

The hon. Lady is correct to say that I made a written statement to the House. I have met many Members, trade unions and ex-members of Remploy to figure out the best way forward. I had one-on-one meetings because, as the hon. Lady will appreciate, each of the factories is significantly different, with different commercial processes and outcomes. It makes far more sense to deal with this on an individual basis so that we can put the personalised support in place.

[Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con)]

Does the Minister agree that the policy is all about helping disabled people into mainstream employment and not at all about cutting the budget for disabled employment support, which despite the difficult economic circumstances is being protected?

[Esther McVey]

I agree with my hon. Friend, and that is precisely what the Sayce review recommended—that we get as many people as possible into mainstream work. There were 2,200 disabled people working at the Remploy factories, and in the last two years alone Remploy Employment Services has put 50,000 similar people into mainstream work.

[Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab)]

The Minister will be aware that the two factories in Fife, in Cowdenbeath in my constituency and in Leven, are both left in limbo and unclear about their future. Will she meet me and my hon. Friend the Member for Glenrothes (Lindsay Roy) early in the new year so that we can understand better the possible options for the future of those two important factories?

[Esther McVey]

I will indeed meet the hon. Gentleman at his earliest possible convenience and mine.

[Nick de Bois (Enfield North) (Con)]

Is not the reality that there is a total consensus among disabled people’s organisations and charities that segregated employment is not really the model for the 21st century?

[Esther McVey]

My hon. Friend is correct; more and more people are calling for disabled people to be in mainstream jobs. I believe in choice and that people should choose where they wish to work, but mainstream work is what most people must aim for.

[Mrs Sharon Hodgson (Washington and Sunderland West) (Lab)]

The facts and figures, rather than the rhetoric, in respect of former Remploy employees throughout the north-east who have so far been helped back into work are truly shocking: Gateshead, none out of 13; Newcastle, six out of 56; Ashington, one out of 26; and Spennymoor, three out of 41. Given that appalling failure to support the workers to find new jobs, does the Minister really think that now, just two weeks before Christmas, is the right time to make 35 workers at the Sunderland factory redundant?

[Esther McVey]

The hon. Lady is quite right; as I mentioned in my statement, it has been a low start, but the numbers are increasing daily and we are doing as much as we possibly can. When I was given the choice whether to announce to the work force what was happening now, or to do so later, I believed that it was necessary that everybody had as much notice as possible. This is the start of a consultation period of 90 days, followed by a further consultation for a month. It is right and fair that everybody knows what is happening and that is why I took the actions that I did.

[Mr Gerry Sutcliffe (Bradford South) (Lab)]

Before I became an MP I used to represent Remploy workers, and I saw the special nature of Remploy factories. We lost our factory in Bradford. The hon. Member for Shipley (Philip Davies) tried to oppose that closure, as I did, and 90% of the people who were there are not in employment. If this is about consultation, as the Minister says, will she ensure, as she tracks these people, that if they do not get employment, the closure process will be stopped until a successful scheme is in place?

[Esther McVey]

The hon. Gentleman makes a fine point: when the factories were closed in 2008, no plans, process, tracking or special consideration were given to the workers. That is now changing. We are obviously starting from a stop-start position, because we did not have this in place previously. As each day goes by, the process becomes better and more people are in work.

[Mr George Mudie (Leeds East) (Lab)]

The Minister has admitted that 812 of the 960 workers are still waiting for work in the first phase. In view of the Department’s failure to get the most vulnerable people into work, should not the Minister, if she has any heart or sensitivity, postpone any future closures until the figure falls from 812 to nothing?

[Esther McVey]

I take on board what the hon. Gentleman says. Those are the numbers. I also announced today, because we are working on a daily basis, that five major businesses have come on board to support ex-Remploy staff. More people are getting jobs every day, and we will help them as best we can.

[Mr Frank Roy (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)]

Can the Minister give a specific answer: why has no Remploy worker from Wishaw, whose factory was closed over the summer, been helped into a job?

[Esther McVey]

I will meet the hon. Gentleman, because I do not understand why none of them has been helped into a job. The offer was there for them to come forward for personal support, and it was their choice whether to do so. More people have come forward; the number was only 800 previously, but it is now up to 961. Perhaps we could work together and he could ensure that they come forward so that we can track and support them. I believe that that is just as much up to him as it is up to me, so let us work together to help those people.

[Paul Blomfield (Sheffield Central) (Lab)]

Remploy Sheffield was described by the Minister in her statement as potentially commercially viable. Does she not accept that her efforts would be better spent securing that potential, rather than risking every job in this ill-considered sell-off, and does she not see that, given the Government’s record, her talk of securing long-term employment for those disabled workers will be viewed with nothing but cynicism?

[Esther McVey]

When we were deciding whether to proceed with stage 2, many factors had to be taken into account. With the factories that were seen as potentially viable, such as those in the hon. Gentleman’s constituency, I was told that, were I to delay, they would become more vulnerable as contracts came to an end and that it was therefore imperative that we pursued stage 2 as soon as possible, because only that would ensure that the staff had a more certain future.

[Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab)]

In the Ashington factory in my constituency, they bolted the doors, boarded the windows, ripped down the Remploy signs and cast the disabled people on to the dole queue. The promises made from the Dispatch Box for support for individuals have never materialised. Why?

[Esther McVey]

That support is in place and is increasing daily. If the hon. Gentleman has found that that has not been the case in his constituency, again, I ask him to meet me and the trade unions. I have met many other Members, and he is no different; as we all have the same intention, which is to get those people into work, I think that it would be best if we met up, so I make that offer to him here and now.

[Paul Goggins (Wythenshawe and Sale East) (Lab)]

In spite of the tremendous efforts of the staff, and indeed increased sales, there is now a “For Sale” sign outside the Remploy factory in Wythenshawe. The Minister recently confirmed to me that only one of the 19 disabled staff who used to work there has so far been found work. Given that evidence, how can she possibly justify the closure of further factories?

[Esther McVey]

The right hon. Gentleman is right that 19 disabled people were employed at the factory, but in his constituency there are 16,700 people with disabilities, so we have to see what we are doing for all those people. I hope that he can take some comfort from the fact that last year alone Remploy Employment Services found jobs for 527 people with similar disabilities. Therefore, we have faith that we can get jobs for those 19 people.

[Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)]

The closure of these Remploy factories—I believe that they will inevitably close, just as with the closures that took place over the summer—will lead to a payment to the Minister’s Department of a capital receipt on the sale of the premises. Will she confirm that that capital receipt, which is over and above the commitment of £320 million that she mentioned, will be used for the benefit of disabled people?

[Esther McVey]

I will certainly look into whether the capital receipt can be ploughed into future work and support for disabled people. Equally, I would like the hon. Gentleman to take into account the fact that some of these sales are not freehold but leasehold, so the figures might not be as high as he expects.

[Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/Co-op)]

We have heard about the initiative taken by the Welsh Assembly Government. Has the Minister had a similar approach from the Scottish Government? What discussions has she had with Ministers in Scotland on trying to provide alternative employment for the many Remploy workers in Scotland who are losing their jobs, including those at the Edinburgh plant, which closed just 11 days ago?

--- Later in debate ---

[Esther McVey]

I have had many discussions with the Scottish Government about what can be put in place, and they are still coming forward with their plans. Across Scotland, 152 disabled people are employed in Remploy, but there are 668,000 disabled people in Scotland, and last year alone 2,550 disabled people were helped into work by Remploy Employment Services. So I do believe we can help, but the information that the hon. Gentleman seeks has not yet been forthcoming to me.

[Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab)]

Given the lack of jobs and growth in the economy as a whole, is not this the worst possible time to be pushing ahead with the closure programme? If the Government are serious about supporting disabled people, surely the way to deal with this is to make sure that the jobs are there, readily available, before any closures take place.

[Esther McVey]

I do not recognise the statistics that the hon. Gentleman is putting forward, because since the election a record number of jobs—1.2 million—have been created in the private sector. As I said, 50,000 jobs were found by Remploy Employment Services in the past two years. We can find these jobs, and that is entirely what we are aiming to do.

[Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) (Lab)]

With unemployment among the disabled having risen by 63,000 in the past year, this Minister, sadly, has presided over an unmitigated shambles of a tendering process in the Springburn Remploy factory in my constituency, with nearly 50 disabled workers not even given the dignity of her making a written statement to this House. Does she not accept that with the Daily Record in Scotland having made very serious allegations about the propriety of the tendering process at that factory, the only way she can restore confidence in her own policy is to bring in a moratorium so that she does not further preside over the incompetent chaos affecting hundreds of Remploy workers across the country?

[Esther McVey]

It is a pleasure to debate with the hon. Gentleman again. I have had two Westminster Hall debates with him on this subject, and we have spoken on various occasions. He knows only too well, from the written and verbal replies that I have given to him, what we are doing, what is happening and what has happened in his constituency.

[Andy Sawford (Corby) (Lab/Co-op)]

As the great-grandson of a British soldier who lost his arm in battle but worked all his life, may I say to the Minister how important it is to our national character that we provide employment for disabled people who can work and provide support for those who cannot? Will she undertake to look into the reality gap in Corby and east Northamptonshire between her rhetoric about providing support for people to get into employment and the daily distress of being harassed by Atos and finding it incredibly difficult to find employment?

[Esther McVey]

We are working with and supporting these people. I am more than happy to meet the hon. Gentleman to see what is happening. However, as I have said, our main and only priority is to get all these people into work and support them as best we can.

[Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab)]

The Minister’s view seems to be that we should equalise downwards and that, if some disabled people are not working while others are employed in Remploy factories, it would be better to move those in the second group into the first one, because at least then they would all be treated fairly. Given the failure to get the people affected by the first round of closures into work, surely the fairest thing to do now would be to stop, get it right and then move on. This is not about whether we should or should not try to get people into mainstream work; it is about whether we can get these people into work.

[Esther McVey]

Of course it is about getting these people into work. It has nothing to do with levelling down. We have taken the advice of the Sayce review and disability organisations, which have said that they want as many disabled people as possible in mainstream work. We are proceeding with that. I do not need to remind the Opposition that their failed modernisation plan, which started in 2008, was a disaster and we, as always, are picking up the pieces.

[Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab)]

Since March, neither the management nor the unions at Remploy Sheffield have received any information about, or any assistance with, securing the future of their factory. I have identified some local business people who may be interested in becoming involved. They contacted Remploy HQ, but received no reply. I have tried to set up a meeting between a local Remploy manager and these local business people, but he says that he cannot meet them, because everything has to go through KPMG. Is it not time for the Minister to start cutting through the bureaucracy and provide real assistance to people who want to become involved in trying to keep Remploy Sheffield as a going concern?

[Esther McVey]

Of course we are cutting through any bureaucracy. However, a process has to be fulfilled and carefully followed. The process has only just started and a 90-day consultation will begin in January, so those people whom the hon. Gentleman has found who might be interested in taking the factory forward should now make their case and it will be taken up by the Remploy board.

[Pamela Nash (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)]

When the last round of closures was announced by the Government, I was visited by several of my constituents who worked at the nearby Remploy factory. They sat in my office and were absolutely devastated, and I tried to console them. Now we hear that hundreds more across the UK face the same fate. We also know that 90% of those who were sacked last time by the Government are still not in work. Will the Minister make it clear why 90% are not in work and, if she cannot, why she is pressing ahead with these closures?

[Esther McVey]

As to why the previous Government failed, that question should be put in the direction of the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill (Mr Byrne). I reiterate that we are working as closely as possible with these people. We have put in place personal support and that is increasing on a daily basis. We intend to get as many of these people as possible into work.

[Jim McGovern (Dundee West) (Lab)]

On a point of order, Mr Speaker.