Turkey: EU Membership

Lord Howell of Guildford Excerpts

Wednesday 22nd June 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sharkey]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what barriers they have identified in the negotiations for the accession of Turkey into the European Union and what steps they are taking to overcome them.

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford)]

My Lords, Turkey’s European Union membership has the full support of this Government, subject to the rigorous application of the accession criteria. We work closely with Turkey to support progress in its domestic reform programme to meet EU standards. The Cyprus problem is an immediate obstacle to progress in the accession process. We support all efforts towards a solution on Cyprus and encourage Turkey to implement the additional Ankara protocol.

[Lord Sharkey]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his Answer. He will be aware that popular sentiment in Turkey is moving against EU membership just when Turkey’s importance to the EU and to the region is increasing. In addition to the measures that he has outlined, will he consider devising with our EU partners a new, clear and dedicated initiative to speed up Turkey’s accession?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I hear what my noble friend says, but the new Government of Mr Erdogan—his party has just been elected for an historic third time, which is a remarkable record—have made it clear through the words of Mr Davutoglu, the Foreign Minister in the last Government and I think in this one, that they wish to continue with their aim of achieving EU accession. Therefore, the policy remains. Of course it is debatable and of course parts of public opinion in Turkey take a different view about how the relationship with the European Union should be developed, but overall, as I understand it, the Government of Turkey remain committed and seek our support and alliance to achieve that aim. That is what we are working on. I have mentioned one obstacle, that of Cyprus, which is obviously very difficult. If we make progress on that and the Turks can admit Greek Cypriot ships to their ports under the protocol that I mentioned, we will definitely be moving in a positive direction, which I think would benefit both Turkey and the European Union.

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

My Lords, do Her Majesty’s Government regard the opinion of the British people as a barrier to Turkish entry, not to mention the opinions of the people of Germany, France, Austria and elsewhere in Europe? Is it not also the case that the people of Turkey are beginning to see a very much better future for themselves outside the failing project of European integration?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I am not sure that the noble Lord is entirely right in his assessment of public opinion generally. Certainly it is true that in France and Germany there are strong sentiments against Turkey joining the European Union, but I have not heard the same sort of sentiment in the United Kingdom. It seems to me that we are a strong country in supporting the reform of the European Union to make it fit for purpose in the 21st century. Part of that pattern of reform may well involve the integration of this very powerful and dynamic nation that Turkey is emerging as, with its own foreign policy agenda, which so far includes a closer and constructive relationship with, and indeed involvement in, the European Union.

[Lord Liddle]

While many of us on this side of the House agree strongly that the EU should adopt a more welcoming approach to Turkish membership, does the noble Lord not agree that the accession of such a large country as Turkey would inevitably weaken Britain’s voting strength in the European Union and have major implications for policy issues such as migration? Why is it that under the European Union Bill that we have been debating in this House, which requires referendums on 56 separate locks, the accession of Turkey would not be subject to a referendum? Does this not indicate the nonsense in the legislation that is before us?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I thought that the noble Lord might raise that matter in relation to accession. He is obviously exercised by it and has, indeed, made clear his concerns over aspects of the Bill, which we debated at enormous length. I think that the best thing I can do is to give a very brief reply and say, no, I do not agree.

[Baroness Knight of Collingtree]

My Lords, will my noble friend the Minister bear in mind constantly the fact that Greece’s membership and Turkey’s lack of it is very often a severe barrier to the settlement of the Cyprus problem, to which there is real urgency? I declare my interest as chairman of the all-party group for Northern Cyprus.

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

There is absolutely no doubt that the Cyprus problem is a barrier and a difficulty and it would be excellent if the parties concerned could see a way to solving their problems and this long-standing issue of the division of Cyprus. I totally agree with my noble friend on that matter. It requires changes: it requires full support for what the United Nations is seeking to do, it requires a positive tone on the part of both Northern Cyprus and the Republic of Cyprus and it requires a positive tone in Athens and Ankara as well. All these changes are required and we are working to support them as hard as we can.

[Baroness Falkner of Margravine]

Does my noble friend agree that, in the context of the Copenhagen criteria, there are concerns about increasing authoritarianism, particularly to do with press freedom? Is he aware that Mr Erdogan has accused the Economist of being backed by Israel, simply because it chose to criticise his campaigning and presidential aspirations?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

Of course, we raise questions of human rights, freedom of the press and other things with our Turkish friends at the right opportunities. Turkey is well aware of the outside pressures and the need to maintain high standards in the fields of human rights and good governance, but these are matters for the Turkish nation to pursue and we are confident that it is pursuing these matters on the right lines.

[The Lord Bishop of Chichester]

My Lords, I am sure that the Minister is aware that in the recent general election in Turkey the first Christian deputy was elected to the Turkish Parliament. Does he agree that this might provide an opportunity to put more pressure on the Turkish Government in respect of their treatment of religious minorities? I have in mind the Syriac Orthodox population in the south-east of the country, particularly in the Tur Abdin region.

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

The Government are, of course, very new. These are matters that we have certainly raised in the past with the Turkish Government and will continue to raise. They have to be seen in a broader context, which is simply that Turkey is becoming a pivotal nation in the Middle East/north Africa pattern of events, in economic terms, in its dealings with its neighbours in turmoil, such as Syria, and generally in playing a crucial part in the global pattern of achieving stability and peace. In this broad context, the point that the right reverend Prelate has raised is very important. We will continue to have that part of our dialogue, but there are many other issues that we certainly want to discuss with increasing frequency with Turkey.

Armenia: Genocide

Lord Howell of Guildford Excerpts

Thursday 16th June 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Flather]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their timetable for recognising the Armenian genocide.

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford)]

My Lords, there is no doubt that the treatment of the Armenians was horrific and caused the deaths of hundreds of thousands by force of arms, starvation or disease. They should not be forgotten, but we believe that it is for the Turkish and Armenian people to work together to address their common history. We encourage any process which helps them do so in an open, honest and constructive manner, but it would not be helpful for us to pre-empt their conclusions.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Flather]

Too long. Thank you.

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

We all appreciate the noble Baroness’s feelings about what was clearly an horrific event in the distant past and one that arouses exactly the feelings of shock and horror that the noble Baroness has demonstrated. The Turkish and Armenian people are trying their best through a protocol procedure to normalise their relations and establish the right nomenclature and attitudes between each other so that these two countries can live in peace with a common border and continue to work for their joint prosperity. Now that protocols have been initialled and now that other Governments—the United States, France and other key countries—all take the same view as we do, this is the right way forward. Behind this is the other worry about Nagorno-Karabakh, and all that, which is being handled by the Minsk process of Russia, the United States and France. These two things together provide hope for the future and it would not be useful or constructive for us to take an issue and raise the heat of the matter by intervening in the way suggested by the noble Baroness.

[Lord Avebury]

Does my noble friend agree that after a century of taboo and silence Turkish journalists and historians are at last beginning to discuss the evidence of murder, enslavement, deportation and forcible transfer, rape, persecution and other inhumane acts of a similar character directed against the Armenian population of Turkey in 1915-16? Would it not help Turkey’s application to join the European Union if Turkish politicians acknowledged the crimes of their ancestors?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I repeat that the best way forward is for Turkey and Armenia, which have initialled detailed protocols, to work to sort this out. I believe that Turkey, which is a very dynamic and an increasingly key country in both the Middle East and in European affairs, is fully aware of this and is determined to push forward with an understanding. There are many people on the Armenian side who, while fully recognising the horrors to which my noble friend has referred, also believe that this is the right way forward.

[The Lord Bishop of Chester]

My Lords, given that, as the Minister said, there is no doubt that genocide took place and that those who were killed should not be forgotten, can he say what is the official guidance on representation at the Armenian Genocide Memorial Day? I understand that there has been some reluctance of Ministers and others to attend the commemoration.

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I will write to the right reverend Prelate on the precise wording of guidance on that. Behind it, there is always the concern that it is a matter to be settled between Turkey and Armenia. They are trying their best to do so and we must be very responsible and careful about any moves or acts of recognition or acceptance that would upset a delicate but very important process. I know that it is a natural impulse to feel, as the noble Baroness, Lady Flather, indicated, that we want to express our outrage at what occurred, but the best way forward is between these two countries.

[Lord Tomlinson]

Does the Minister recognise that Armenia and Turkey, as well as Azerbaijan, all work together very constructively in the Council of Europe and, at a political level, in the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe? That body, which serves such useful purposes on so many disputes that still exist in the wider Europe, is currently being starved of money by having much less generous settlements of its already meagre budget by comparison with the settlements that are being made for the European Union budget. Will the Minister look at that and make sure that the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe and the Council of Europe, with their roles in relation to the European Court of Human Rights, are getting adequate resources to do their valuable work?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

Of course I will look at that. We recognise that at this time everyone is having to trim back on the availability of resources, but I am absolutely at one with the noble Lord on this matter. The Council of Europe is a very valuable forum in which the very long-standing and difficult disputes of the area can begin to be effectively resolved.

[Baroness Cox]

Is the Minister aware that there is a serious risk in Turkey of prosecution for journalists and writers who use the term “Armenian genocide”—some have been prosecuted—and that much educational material for schools has been produced by the Turkish Government denying the Armenian genocide? Does the Minister agree that such censorship in public discussion and education is unacceptable for a nation that hopes to join the European Union?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I do not want to comment on the detailed internal affairs of the Turkish Republic, but of course the values of freedom of expression are very important to us. We will continue to uphold our values and assert them wherever we can—and we do. The precise internal handling of the issue that Turkey and Armenia are now proceeding to handle is one that we have to leave to them.

East Jerusalem

Lord Howell of Guildford Excerpts

Thursday 16th June 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hylton]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what action they will take following the publication in March by the United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs of its report on key concerns affecting civilians in east Jerusalem.

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford)]

My Lords, we remain concerned about a number of Israel’s continuing policies in east Jerusalem, which the UK considers occupied under international law. These include ongoing settlements expansion, the demolition of houses and the eviction of Palestinian residents, the route of the barrier wall and restrictions on residency rights. In his public statement of 5 April, my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary condemned plans to build 500 new Israeli settlements in occupied east Jerusalem as illegal and an obstacle to peace.

[Lord Hylton]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his reply. He listed many of the points of deep concern. Does he agree that these harm the welfare and even the citizenship of Palestinians living in east Jerusalem? What is more, they prejudice, do they not, final status negotiations in a very damaging way.

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

Very many people would agree with the noble Lord’s sentiments. Of course, this area has been occupied since 1967 when—to get history right—Israel was attacked, broke through the Mandelbaum Gate and occupied east Jerusalem and many other areas as well. Ever since then, the handling of the occupation by the Israeli authorities has given rise to criticism. It is the clear view of Her Majesty's Government that the more heavy-handed and inappropriate the operations in the administration of east Jerusalem, with the kind of things that I described, the more we postpone the goal that we all want to achieve of proper peace negotiations to bring the two-state solution that will bring peace and harmony to the area.

[Lord Dubs]

I welcome what the Minister said about the Government's policy. Do not all the criticisms that he made, which I believe are valid, add up to the fact that it will be extremely difficult for east Jerusalem to become the capital of a Palestinian state?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

Everyone recognises the whole Jerusalem issue, and the east Jerusalem issue is an enormously complex part of any future negotiations. We are talking about the goal of both Palestine and Israel recognising east Jerusalem as a joint capital. It is the capital of both countries and of many religions throughout the world. A degree of understanding is needed and is still missing between the Israeli authorities—although not among many highly enlightened and intelligent members of the Israeli community—the Palestinian people and the Palestinian Government, who are led in a very positive way at the moment, so that the very difficult concept of Jerusalem as the capital of both countries can be worked out and they can live together.

[Baroness Falkner of Margravine]

My Lords, may I, through my noble friend, congratulate our ambassador in Israel, Mr Matthew Gould, on the excellent practical work he is doing on the ground in east Jerusalem? Will my noble friend tell us whether the Foreign Office and DfID are jointly minded to implement some of the recommendations of the OCHA report, including prioritising zoning for Palestinians and building schools so that half the Palestinian children living in east Jerusalem who currently do not get free schooling are able at least to get an education so that they can move away from radicalisation? Will they please impress on the Israelis not to try to disfranchise the Palestinian population in this manner, or peace will never come?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I certainly agree with the last comment. As for the United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs’ report, which is a very long document—I think it is 118 pages—there are very positive ideas in it, which we are studying very closely with our colleagues in DfID. Where we can make a contribution and see these ideas carried forward, we will certainly do so.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick]

What is the Government’s support for President Obama’s initiative? How do they see the issue of Jerusalem fitting into any follow-up process? How is that process being organised now, given the very negative reaction of the Israeli Prime Minister?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

The answer to the question is in the noble Lord’s last comments. The reaction has been very negative indeed. The process we want to see remains the key to the future. There are elements in the jigsaw. One is whether, in joining with Fatah, Hamas can come forward with and deliver a responsible negotiating Government who renounce violence, accept the quartet principles and can go forward in good talks with Israel. Another is that the Israeli authorities recognise that there is no alternative to going forward in a positive away. Another is that they recognise that it is now when they should move, whereas the attitude in Jerusalem and Tel Aviv appears to be to wait and do nothing. We do not agree with that. We think this is a golden opportunity. All these matters must be fed into the process that President Obama tried to set in motion the other day but, so far, with not much success.

[Baroness Tonge]

My Lords, the Minister will know the story of the three MPs, legitimately elected to represent areas of east Jerusalem, who were imprisoned by the Israelis because they had been elected. On release from prison nearly a year ago, they were told they were to be deported from east Jerusalem and would have to leave their homes and families behind. They have now been in an upper room in the Red Cross building in east Jerusalem for nearly one year. What are our Government going to do about it?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

We are doing as much as we can, which is constantly to raise this matter with the Israelis. We do not at all approve of what has happened. We believe this is a wrong pattern. My noble friend has traced this evolution and development very closely indeed, probably as closely as anyone else in this House. Our pressure will continue. We are not the sovereign power, but we can explain our views and put them forward very strongly on a matter that is totally unsatisfactory.

NATO

Lord Howell of Guildford Excerpts

Thursday 16th June 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lee of Trafford]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their response to the recent speech by the United States Secretary of Defence Robert Gates on the future of NATO.

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford)]

Defence Secretary Gates’ speech was a warning that Europe cannot take for granted the security blanket provided by NATO and historically resourced primarily by the United States. It also says something about the changing position of the United States itself. To deliver the capabilities that ensure our security, many European countries, especially NATO allies that fail to meet the 2 per cent of the GDP target, which was reconfirmed as recently as March 2011, need to increase levels of defence spending and work together more efficiently and effectively, as demonstrated by the UK-France defence treaty. We also need to remember that effective security involves hard and soft power elements—in fact, smart power.

[Lord Lee of Trafford]

I am very grateful to my noble friend for that very comprehensive reply. Perhaps I may remind the House precisely what Secretary Gates said. He said:

“The blunt reality is that there will be dwindling appetite and patience in the US Congress—and in the American body politic writ large—to expend increasingly precious funds on behalf of nations that are apparently unwilling to devote the necessary resources or make the necessary changes to be serious and capable partners in their own defence”.

While we are very grateful for all that the United States does, does not its lack of complete commitment on the Libyan operation send a clear message to us? Is not American increasingly looking to the East?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

Behind my noble friend’s question is of course the truth that the world is changing, the balance of power is changing, and the unipolar moment, as it is called, for the United States has passed. Nevertheless, it remains an immensely powerful and close ally that is playing quite a detailed and substantial part in the overall operation against Colonel Gaddafi’s Libya and against the hideous divisions of that country. The US case, and our case, that other countries in NATO could do more is widely accepted by everyone. Clearly, there is a great need for a fairer distribution of the burden of meeting the Libyan situation and many other situations that are bound to arise.

I do not think that we should be too gloomy about that adjustment. America remains our very close friend and one of the greatest countries in the world. We will work very closely with it on security, and the softer aspects of security, in trying to achieve global peace and stability.

[Lord Martin of Springburn]

Is the Minister as concerned as I am that some Ministers in the Scottish Parliament are publicly saying that they want to withdraw from NATO? This would be harmful to the Scottish people and to the whole of the United Kingdom.

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

Perhaps I should be but I am not as concerned as he is because I did not know that they were doing this. If Ministers in the Scottish Parliament think that they can somehow opt out of the collective security on which we all depend, and if any country thinks that it can have a free ride, they will need to think again because in this new world most of the operations in which we will be involved will now be completely interdependent, operating closely with a whole range of allies in different combinations. I am sure that the skills, the fighting spirit and the long traditions of Scotland will be just as much needed in global security as everything else. Perhaps these Ministers should think again.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, while I am sure that the noble Lord is right to point to the contribution of other European countries and the need for them to contribute more, does he not think that we have to look at our own capability? Last year, the Government undertook a very hurried defence review. In the light of the current commitments of our Armed Forces, does not the noble Lord think that another review is required?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

No, I do not. After 2015 our budget will start expanding again. We are much the largest contributor in the European end of NATO. We are fulfilling our commitments. The operations in which we are involved are completely sustainable, contrary to some remarks we have all read about in the press. We believe that we have the dispositions, the patterns and the plans to meet as far as we can individually the crises of the future. The answer to the noble Lord’s question is no, but these are certainly fluid matters and anything could be coming around the corner. Great events could hit us and we always have to be ready to review the situation.

[Lord King of Bridgwater]

My Lords, this statement has come from the United States on many occasions before, but it has been expressed with exceptional candour and frankness in what I believe could have been the valedictory message of Secretary Robert Gates, who may shortly be retiring. It has done the credit of telling people quite frankly what the feeling is in the United States. Contrary to the suggestion that might have come from the opposition Front Bench, the United Kingdom is certainly not the laggard in this matter. A number of other countries in NATO have for years failed completely to make a reasonable contribution, which very much threatens the willingness of the United States to continue to make the effort it wants. In a very dangerous and uncertain world, would my noble friend recognise that while NATO can take on a certain amount of responsibility, when considering issues such as piracy in Somalia, we should welcome the opportunity for Russian, Chinese, Indian and other forces to get involved in what are in fact issues of universal concern?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

My Lords, the first of my noble friend’s comments is based on his considerable experience and expertise in this area, and I totally agree with him. I agree even more strongly with his second point. These are becoming global issues on which all the responsible powers, or powers that wish to be responsible—that certainly includes great nations such as China, India, Russia and countries like Brazil—all have a responsibility, and they can no longer either enjoy a free ride while the western world tries to carry the burdens or stand aside, as we sometimes hear from Beijing, and say, “We are not going to interfere in anything. It is nothing to do with us”. They are going to find that this is something to do with them, and already we are seeing welcome signs that some Chinese diplomatic voices are raising that point and involving themselves in trying to resolve various ugly crises, such as that in southern Sudan.

Cyprus

Lord Howell of Guildford Excerpts

Wednesday 15th June 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hussein-Ece]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their assessment of the recent speech by the United Nations Secretary-General on the lack of progress towards a political solution to a divided Cyprus.

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford)]

My Lords, the United Nations Secretary-General has made it clear that a solution will take compromise and flexibility from both sides. We hope that both leaders take advantage of the meeting with the United Nations Secretary-General, or his representative, on 7 July, and the period leading up to it, to work jointly and concretely towards reaching a mutually acceptable, lasting settlement. We will lend whatever support we are able to in the hope of bringing the negotiations to a successful conclusion.

[Baroness Hussein-Ece]

I thank my noble friend for that reply. He will be aware that United Nations’ peacekeeping troops have been in Cyprus since 1964 and that inter-communal talks have been going on intermittently since 1967. Post the 2004 Annan peace plan, which was rejected by the Greek Cypriots, the Turkish Cypriots remain isolated, while Greek Cypriots are in Europe and are to take over the presidency of the EU next year. If the latest round of talks fails, will it be time to look at other solutions, and is a divided Cyprus in Europe desirable or sustainable?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

Obviously we hope that the next round of talks will make progress. As the noble Baroness knows, the talks will take place under Alexander Downer, a former Australian Foreign Minister, whom many of us know. I am sure that he will preside skilfully and try to get some advance and agreement. On the role of the Republic of Cyprus in the EU presidency next year, we are confident that it will fulfil its responsibilities under European legislation, as it is required to do. I do not think we need have worries on that score. My noble friend is quite right to say that this has been going on for years—almost back into distant memory—and we long to see real and positive progress, but we think that the UN Secretary-General’s procedures are the right ones to follow to achieve a better base.

[Lord Faulkner of Worcester]

Have there been any developments in the Apostolides v Orams case since the Court of Appeal upheld the European Court of Justice ruling that the judgment of the courts in the Republic of Cyprus had jurisdiction in the Turkish-occupied part of the island? Is it still the Government’s view that British subjects who consider buying property in the north should exercise the greatest care in ensuring that they are entitled to buy that property?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

On the latter point, it certainly is the Government’s view that the greatest care should be exercised. A complex and sensitive issue of the Cyprus problem is the question of title deeds. Our advice has been to give very clear guidance and to take great caution when purchasing property in Cyprus. I cannot comment particularly on the Orams case at the moment, but the British High Commissioner in Cyprus has raised this issue with the Republic of Cyprus Ministry of the Interior and received assurances that the Cypriot Government intend to introduce a Bill to address the overall problem of finding that the people from whom you bought a property were not the legal owners. I recognise that the issue has affected a large number of British citizens who purchased property in Cyprus. Ultimately, this is a matter for the Cypriot Government.

[Lord Maginnis of Drumglass]

My Lords, does the Foreign Office remember what the Akritas plan was? If so, will the Minister tell the House where else within our sphere of influence has an entire national identity been shunned and isolated, as the Turkish Cypriots’ has been for 37 years for resisting the Greek Cypriot plan to ethnically cleanse them?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I think that I can safely say that the Foreign and Commonwealth Office has a pretty long memory about many of these issues. In some cases, as we know from a recent announcement, some of the files were not immediately available but recently have become available about those dark days in the past. The noble Lord is taking us back to many plans and arrangements, going right back to EOKA itself, which ended in tragedy and difficulty and have underpinned the situation we have today of a divided island. The best thing to do is to put these matters behind us and try to build a positive and creative atmosphere in which we can overcome the still considerable range of problems to bring about the end of this island partition and the proper emergence of a bizonal, federal Cyprus.

[Baroness Scott of Needham Market]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that the biggest practical problem facing Cypriots wanting to reunify is the difference in GDP between the two halves of the island, and that the best way of improving things on the Turkish Cypriot side would be for the European Union to implement the direct trade regulation? Can the noble Lord assure us that the Government will really push for this particular measure, which is practical and offers part of a solution?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I have two points in answer to my noble friend. First, the EU is putting a considerable volume of funds into northern Cyprus, precisely with the thought that when the happier days come, the disparity in incomes will be somewhat overcome. I have a figure here of €259 million, I think, for the current year, a very considerable sum indeed. That may be over two years, actually. So on that side things are being done. As to the problem of trade between Turkey and the rest of the EU and the bar on the use of Turkish ports by EU or Greek Cypriot shipping in response to the fact that the EU appears to have pursued a policy of isolation of northern Cyprus, that is a very difficult issue. There is a stalemate at the moment, with each side waiting for the other to move. However, I agree with my noble friend that if we can get movement on that front on both sides, trade and prosperity will open up and the problems of northern Cyprus will be further alleviated.

[Lord Corbett of Castle Vale]

May I urge the Minister to continue the support of the United Kingdom for the United Nations recommendation over many years that the answer to the problem in Cyprus is a bizonal, bifederal state based on political equality and that any other solutions simply will not work? It is easy to blame other powers in the region for doing this or that, this year or last year or whenever, but the real answer is that given the active support of the new Turkish Government and the Greek Government and especially in the light of the better relations that now exist between them, they should take the lead to encourage the leaders of both communities in Cyprus that a solution is almost a hand’s reach away if they simply make up their minds to get down to doing this and giving it a try.

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

The noble Lord speaks complete sense, and I agree with very nearly everything he says. Obviously, we have hopes: there is a renewed Government in Turkey, which is playing as a nation a responsible and forward part in the global agenda and certainly the agenda of the entire region. We must look to the Turkish Government to play their part; we must also look to Athens to the Greek Government, who have many problems on their plate at the moment, to be constructive. There is absolutely no doubt that with the right spirit in Athens and Ankara, we really could make progress in this very long-standing problem.

Sudan

Lord Howell of Guildford Excerpts

Wednesday 15th June 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Chidgey]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their response to the situation in Sudan.

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford)]

My Lords, we are deeply concerned by the situation in Abyei and the current violence in Southern Kordofan. We call for an immediate cessation of violence and urge the parties to work through the African Union-facilitated negotiations to resolve their differences. Michael Ryder, the UK special envoy to Sudan, is in Addis Ababa today, supporting these talks. We are particularly concerned by the humanitarian impact and the lack of access for humanitarian agencies. We strongly urge the Sudanese armed forces from the north and the Sudanese People’s Liberation Army to allow humanitarian agencies immediate access to those who most need their help.

[Lord Chidgey]

I am very grateful to my noble friend for that Answer. Does he agree that the situation unfolding in Southern Kordofan is creating a major threat to regional stability? Will he confirm recent reports that of the 60,000 people in Kadugli, 40,000 have fled from the heavy fighting, which has included bombing and strafing by the Sudanese army; and that some 10,000 are now stranded on the roads without sustenance of any form? Will he confirm also the eye-witness reports of the Sudanese army going from house to house, pulling out opposition supporters and local officials and executing them? Will he confirm that UNMIS has completely failed to protect civilians and assure the House that we, as major donors to northern Sudan, will apply every pressure we can to ensure the restoration of peace, the protection of civilians and the securing of access to humanitarian aid before independence on 9 July?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

My noble friend obviously follows these matters extremely closely. Of course I can confirm his last point; we will use every possible endeavour and will hope that the talks going on under the AU implementation panel in Addis Ababa will begin to lead to a calming down of the situation, and to the necessary humanitarian access that at present is being denied. My noble friend asked whether I could confirm various reports. Obviously, in detail, I cannot. What I can say is that we have had a range of reports with horrifying elements to them. We completely deplore the bombing of civilians by the forces of Sudan and Khartoum. All these developments must cease—there must be an immediate cessation of this kind of fighting—so that we can get back to what we hoped would be a pattern of peace under the comprehensive peace agreement, so that Southern Sudan can move towards its independence day on 9 July.

[Baroness Cox]

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that there is reliable evidence, including photographic evidence, of the aerial bombardment of civilians in Southern Kordofan, including the use of helicopter gunships to chase civilians like wild animals; and that there are reports of UNMIS forces standing by while northern soldiers kill civilians in front of them? Will the Minister indicate whether Her Majesty's Government will press the UN Security Council to take effective action to ensure that UNMIS forces will be effective in their role, and also to give serious consideration to the priority request of local people for a no-fly zone?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

The noble Baroness is right when she confirms what I said about the bombing, which we deeply deplore. On the question of UN action, there are proposals that may be moving towards a resolution, but of course resolutions do not necessarily deliver the goods. What is needed is a much stronger operation. UNMIS needs reinforcement and has had some already—although it has not been a total success in protecting civilians from the atrocities that the noble Baroness describes. There is also some hope—perhaps that is too strong a word and I should say some movement forward—to be gained from the agreement that appears to have been accepted in Khartoum that an Ethiopian, non-UN force should intervene in Abyei to try to bring peace and to stop any further fighting and conflict arising both from tribal differences and differences between the north and south.

[The Lord Bishop of Chichester]

My Lords, does the Minister agree with Archbishop Deng, the archbishop of the Episcopal Church of Sudan, that the situation at the moment has all the hallmarks of ethnic cleansing and potential genocide, and that this adds a very particular urgency to the need for effective international action to bring an immediate end to the bloodshed and also to secure a long-term, lasting peace?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I agree with the right reverend Prelate. I do not think that there is any doubt that this is a very serious situation, with some extremely ugly developments, and that it needs very urgent action by both north and south—but particularly by the northern forces, which are using heavy weapons to attack civilians in a completely unacceptable way.

[Baroness Kinnock of Holyhead]

My Lords, in the past few days we have heard a number of responses to the terrible situation in Southern Kordofan: the White House has talked about crimes against humanity and the targeting of individuals on ethnic grounds; and the most reverend Primate the Archbishop of Canterbury has described what he calls “government-supported terror” and “another Darfur”. However, from our Foreign Secretary we have had only a short Written Statement which talks of his concerns and condemnation. In response to such appalling atrocities, surely we have a right to expect more assertive words from the British Government, and a commitment to urgent action, such as, particularly, a movement to Chapter VII of the UN Charter.

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I am the first to salute the noble Baroness’s concerns in this area, but I do not think that she is being quite fair. My right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary has spoken out about these matters both at Foreign Office Questions and in quite long Statements, and I know that it is a major preoccupation. Possibly the best evidence of his close preoccupation with these extremely worrying concerns is that he will attend the independence on 9 July, in Juba, together with other international leaders; the full support which is already reflected in our substantial consulate-general, to be an embassy, in Juba; the extremely close, daily involvement of our officials in the whole operation; and the very substantial aid programmes which we offer both to the new South Sudan as it emerges and to address the continuing problems of north Sudan—providing, I should add, that they, in a sense, follow more responsible policies and cease these hideous, open and atrocious attacks on unarmed civilians.

Gibraltar

Lord Howell of Guildford Excerpts

Tuesday 14th June 2011 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford)]

My Lords, our embassy in Madrid made representations to the Spanish Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Ministry of Defence while the “Atalaya” incident on 3 May was ongoing, which we believe contributed to the speedy and peaceful resolution of the incident, along with the local Royal Navy response. Our ambassador in Madrid then followed up in person with the Spanish Ministry of Foreign Affairs on 6 May 2011. The embassy in Madrid dispatched an official written complaint to the ministry on 9 May. The Minister for Europe, my right honourable friend Mr Lidington, also raised it with the Spanish Foreign Minister in the margins of the Council of Europe meeting on 10 and 11 May.

[Lord Bilston]

How long will the people of Gibraltar have to tolerate the harassment and intimidation of the Spanish authorities? We should bear in mind that the Government of Gibraltar do not consider that physical confrontation or gunboat diplomacy is the proper or sensible way forward. Can the Minister explain to the House why it took almost an hour for the gunboat HMS “Scimitar” to be deployed to deal with this incident that really was unlawful, provocative and unnecessary by the Spanish navy?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

Those are very understandable questions. I will answer the second one first. The response was fairly swift. We have to balance our diplomatic and our military response and we have to live with the reality that while in many fields Spain is our close ally around the world and helping us, on this issue we have our differences. It is a question of balance. As to the longer-term situation, our hope and our intention are rooted in the Cordoba Agreement, the trilateral forum of dialogue, which was set up very successfully under the previous Government. I emphasise that it involves not just Britain and Spain, but Britain, Gibraltar and Spain—it is trilateral. If we can keep that process going, it must be the way forward to end these incursions which, I agree, do create a sense of irritation and seem unnecessary.

[Lord Chidgey]

Does my noble friend the Minister agree with the statement made by Peter Caruana, the Chief Minister of Gibraltar, that there are absolutely no circumstances in which his Government will permit local waters to be treated,

“other than as waters of exclusive British sovereignty”,

under their exclusive jurisdiction? Will the Government join the Government of Gibraltar in appealing the ruling that their cases against the decision that these waters should become one of Spain’s protected sites under EU law are inadmissible?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

We agree with Peter Caruana completely. We also take the view that, as these are British Government sovereign waters, any redesignation is for us and not for Spain.

[Lord Luce]

I declare an interest as a former Governor of Gibraltar. Does the Minister not agree that the trilateral forum, to which he referred, has made a great deal of progress in recent years in bringing, through economic co-operation, benefits to the people of Spain in the region, as well as to Gibraltarians? Does he also agree that, so long as the Spanish Government—a fellow member of NATO and the European Union—behave in this unacceptable fashion, it will not be possible to make further progress?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I would not for a moment dare to disagree with such a distinguished former Governor of Gibraltar. We seek from the Spanish authorities, who are our friends and allies in many parts of the world, an understanding that these matters can be handled by the trilateral forum of dialogue process and that these incursions—this one has a higher profile because it involved the Spanish navy, whereas normally it is the Spanish Guardia Civil which causes these incursions—add nothing to the hopes for resolution. Every time this occurs, we respond with the utmost urgency and the strongest protest that this is not the way forward.

[Lord West of Spithead]

My Lords, I was commander-in-chief when the Royal Marines inadvertently invaded Spain, so I am aware of how complex the waters are around Gibraltar. The Gibraltar Squadron has been reduced to the absolute minimum to do the task that is asked of it. Will the Minister confirm that there will be no further reductions in the size and capability of that squadron?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

First, I note, along with your Lordships, that once again your Lordships’ House proves that it has massive expertise in every subject. We keep the naval response constantly under review. We will ensure that we have the means for an appropriate response, balanced with a diplomatic assessment of the situation, and we will make sure that that continues. There will be no question but that these incursions—if they have to continue, and I hope that they do not—will be responded to with the utmost speed both by the Royal Navy and by diplomatic means.

[Lord Hoyle]

Did we receive an apology, and what assurances did we get from Spain that this would not occur again? The noble Lord says that the Royal Navy will be ready but will it be ready immediately? The last time it was launched, the vessel in question had departed.

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I am not quite sure that that last point is correct. I think that the vessel was seen off. It was warned and departed as the warning came—it all happened simultaneously. As to a response from Madrid, I do not think that there has been an apology or a reassurance that it will not happen again. However, there has certainly been a recognition that this was an unfortunate incident which they do not want to see recur. I would not put it higher than that. We have not got there yet.

[Lord Anderson of Swansea]

My Lords, I can only declare that I have visited Gibraltar. Does the Minister agree that, however provocative this incident, it is within the context of a much improved relationship with Spain on the Rock? However, does he also agree that there is now perhaps a danger that, if there were a change of government, there would be a rather more populist and nationalist attitude to the Rock on the part of Spain, and that it is very important to improve the hotlines and ensure that there are protocols for better co-operation and understanding if such an unfortunate incident arises in future?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

That is very wise. One move that we have been anxious to make is to get back into regular meetings of the trilateral forum, which were interrupted before by concerns in Gibraltar. On his recent visit, my right honourable friend the Minister for Europe certainly succeeded in establishing that we should go forward with these ministerial meetings in a sensible way. The hope, although it has not yet been satisfied on the Spanish side, is that there will be a ministerial meeting of the Cordoba agreement group—the trilateral group—before the summer is out.

European Union Bill

Lord Howell of Guildford Excerpts

Monday 13th June 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Liddle]

My Lords, we have had a long debate on this set of amendments. We on the opposition Front Bench strongly support this group of amendments, spoken to by the noble Lord, Lord Hannay. I shall focus our debate on Report on the essence of these amendments, which is to reduce the 56 varieties of referendum lock that the Bill contains to referenda on new treaties and three major issues: joining the euro, joining Schengen and the setting up of a single European army or force, as my noble friend Lady Symons mentioned.

What people who accuse us of proposing a set of wrecking amendments have to take into account is that the Bill as amended would be a substantial step forward in public accountability as far as the European Union is concerned. There could be no major new treaties containing the kind of proposal that former Prime Minister Tony Blair floated last week—for an elected president of the European Union—without a referendum. We could not join the euro, which clearly might now mean significant steps towards a fiscal union, under the amendments in this group. We could not join Schengen, which would certainly mean abolishing our own border controls and replacing them with border controls at the EU frontier, a common set of asylum rules, burden sharing and so on. Under the amendments that we are proposing, that would be subject to a referendum, as would a major step towards common defence.

Therefore, these amendments do not wreck this Bill; they just make it more sensible and get rid of the huge number of referenda in it. That is wholly in line with the spirit of your Lordships’ Constitution Committee’s recommendation that referenda should be confined to matters of major constitutional significance. One of the curiosities of the many days of debate that we have had is that we have never heard why the Government think they can set aside in this way the recommendations of your Lordships’ committee on these specific matters when it comes to the European Union. On all these other matters—on which, if this amendment were passed, there would be no need for a referendum—there would still be a need for an Act of Parliament. That is an enormous change from the position that we are in now. We are not wrecking this Bill; we are trying to improve it. I hope that on that basis the Government might be prepared to show a flexibility that they have so far lacked in these debates.

One of the very wise contributions to this discussion was made by my noble friend Lord Rowlands. In a distinguished career in another place, he was a sceptic in the proper sense of the word and had to be convinced about the case for Britain’s membership of the European Union and the pooling of sovereignty that it involved. However, as he said, we are setting up a far too overcomplicated process of accountability with the plethora of referendums proposed. What I find difficult about this is why the presumed lack of legitimacy of the European Union is seen as being so peculiar and special compared with the huge problems that our democracy as a whole faces in today’s world.

I looked at the Eurobarometer opinion poll for October 2010—that poll asks people questions about trust on a regular basis—and found that a very depressing 64 per cent of the British people do not trust the European Union. That is why we accept that there is a legitimacy problem. However, it seems that 66 per cent do not trust the British Parliament, 67 per cent do not trust the UK Government and 82 per cent do not trust political parties in Britain, so what is so peculiar about the lack of legitimacy of the European Union compared with the rest of our democracy?

It is argued either that confidence in Europe has been destroyed by so-called competence creep or that we face lots of threats to our sovereignty in future. As my noble friend Lord Triesman has said many times, if you are in government and do not want to do something, you just say no. The noble Lord, Lord Lamont, made a very interesting speech in which he pointed out that there is a very distinctive issue about the irreversible nature of the surrenders of sovereignty that take place in the European Union and the problems of a Union that moves by a process of intergovernmental compromise. Many of us who are pro-Europeans have been worried about this issue for many years and have wanted to think of ways of closing that democratic deficit. Certainly, we should have a debate about the role of the European Parliament, which plays a much bigger role now than it did 15 years ago, largely because of the treaties that the noble Baroness, Lady Symons, when she was leading for the Government, put through this House. However, I presume that the noble Lord, Lord Lamont, would not regard those treaties or the strengthening of the European Parliament as being good things. I agree with him that we have to think of ways of addressing that democratic deficit, but I suspect that he is not prepared to accept these kinds of remedies.

There is a problem of legitimacy vis-à-vis Europe that is particular to Britain, because over decades we have failed to establish a cross-party consensus about our membership of the European Union and failed to argue the case for British membership with a united voice. Amendment 31—which we shall discuss later; the noble Lord, Lord Radice, moved it in Committee—will try to address that problem in part. However, there is another explanation of why the EU has run into problems. The explanation is, as I said at Second Reading, that there are two ways of looking at legitimacy. One is to think about it in terms of how decisions are approved, but the other is to think about whether the institution is effective at doing the job that it is supposed to do. One of the problems with Europe is that it is not as effective as it could be, and this causes public disillusion.

I looked at a poll carried out last November about attitudes to the European Union. If you ask a general question—do people think that we should co-operate more or do they want us to loosen the links with the European Union?—only 21 per cent want us to co-operate more, but 49 per cent would have us loosen the links. However, when you ask people questions about specific areas such as climate change, attacking terrorism and crime, regulating banks, minimum rights for workers, or minimum levels of tax on business, a strong majority in Britain want the European Union to do more. I therefore argue that it is not a question just of how decisions are taken, but of how we make Europe effective. That is what we ought to focus on in our debate.

Finally, in support of the amendment, perhaps I may say that we have had a good and long debate, but one of the depressing things about it is a tendency to be historical, to look back to the past, to take trips down memory lane, and to look at the debates in the 1950s, 1960s and 1970s. I am very prone to that tendency, and this is therefore a self-criticism. When we think about Europe, we really should remember that the world of which the European Union is part is transforming itself at enormous speed. Since the Maastricht treaty, communism has fallen and that aspect of the world has changed enormously, the Arab world is in revolution, China has risen enormously as a power, and the weight of the European Union in the world is decreasing at a rapid rate. Our weight in the world as the United Kingdom is decreasing at an even more rapid rate.

Yet, in response to these extraordinary developments of the past 20 years, this Government have come forward with a policy on Europe that is essentially, “Thus far and no further”. In other words, “We have no imagination about how the European Union might develop. We are saying there should be no change without a referendum”. This is a depressing attitude that destroys the flexibility that a British Government should have to respond to an unpredictable and unknowable future. I urge the House to support these amendments because they confine referendums to the really big issues on which the people ought to decide.

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford)]

My Lords, we have had a rather amazing debate in which I found all kinds of echoes of agreement that did not seem to be there in the darker days of May when your Lordships first went into Committee to examine the details of the Bill. We have come a long way since then and there seems to be a greater appreciation—not necessarily combined with agreement—about some of the issues that the Bill seeks to address.

We have of course been down memory lane with the various comments by noble Lords who have been extremely experienced in European affairs over almost half a century. Edmund Burke featured again, although I must say that the more I think about that great man, the more I hear in my mind his remark, “Show me the man; show me the things”. In other words, he was interested in the situation as it actually was, rather than in the high theory of how it ought to be. I did not agree with the final remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Liddle. He should not be depressed because the possibilities for our leading in European reform are much greater than he accepts, although he is an expert in these matters. He is entirely right to say that the landscape has changed and that we are dealing with an entirely new situation.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Goodhart]

I accept that other countries in the European Union have been very reluctant, as have our Government, to join up to the EPPO and I think it is unlikely that there will ever be an EPPO, but that is mostly because of the inadequacies of the legal system in a number of those countries. For this country, under Article 86 of TFEU:

“The European Public Prosecutor's Office shall be responsible for investigating, prosecuting and bringing to judgment … the perpetrators of, and accomplices in, offences against the Union's financial interests, as determined by … regulation”.

That makes it perfectly clear that those who would suffer would not be ordinary citizens in this country. If the EPPO was brought into this country, those who would be subject to it would be international criminals and some major commercial companies. It would not affect the ordinary people in this country in the slightest.

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I respect what my noble friend is saying, but one has only to pause for a moment and think about the phrase, the European Union's financial interests. Who will interpret that? How widely or narrowly will that be interpreted? Will offences be generated by the misuse of structural funds or other arrangements to do with the EU's finances? We do not know. We do not know who will define these things, but we can see clearly that they may well lead to a prosecution authority outside the UK, when we have our own prosecution authorities which are perfectly adequate in most—indeed, in all—cases to deal with those matters. We will have a prosecution authority from outside the United Kingdom for the first time charging and prosecuting British citizens. That is one reason why a huge uncertainty hangs over that.

Furthermore, once set up, although it is confined to EU financial interests now, the range can spread. Who is to say that it may not? We do not know. All those matters are reasons why many European countries—possibly the majority—are reluctant to see a development of that kind and why, if a Government in this country decided to change their mind, flatly against what the previous Labour Government wanted and flatly against what the present Government want, that should certainly be one item that should be put to a referendum.

I turn now to some of the comments made by the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, which were very reasonably put. I know that he felt that he was in a consensual and concessionary mood and looked for some reciprocity from the Government. In that, I fear that he will be disappointed. The passerelles allowing for a move to QMV, which are listed in Clause 6(5), have been included simply because they are covered by Schedule 1. That is obvious to most of your Lordships. It would be wildly illogical to provide for a referendum on an amending treaty which abolished those vetoes without also providing for a referendum on any decision to use the passerelles attached to the specific articles listed in Clause 6(5), which would achieve exactly the same result. That would be tantamount to locking the front and back doors of the house—not closing them, locking them; and not throwing away the key either, but giving the key to the British people—but leaving the kitchen window open.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick]

On one small point of fact, the noble Lord, Lord Howell, said that we have just given up the veto on the annual budget. The annual budget has been adopted by a majority vote by a provision of the Treaty of Rome which was negotiated before we joined, which we have applied. Therefore, it has been taken by a majority vote throughout the period of our membership. It really is not wise to adduce changes which have not taken place during the period of our membership.

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I totally disagree; I think that it is pertinent and a healthy reminder of what happens. We can contribute all we wish to in all these vital areas. The surrender of the veto can lead to consequences which can be extremely dangerous.

Finally, I should like to say a word on common defence, because that has come up and it is important. Amendments 15 and 16 suggest that the only controversial element of a decision to move to common defence would be a decision to develop a single integrated military force—in other words, that it is only that particular interpretation of common defence which is of real concern.

Successive Governments and successive Ministers, including noble Lords sitting here now in the Chamber, have rightly said that we do not support the introduction of a common defence. A Minister said:

“We oppose the introduction of common defence either at 25”—

there were 25 members when this was said—

“or through enhanced co-operation. We think it is divisive and a duplication of NATO”.

We do not support,

“anything such as the creation of standing inner groups or an inner core on ESDP,

which,

“would undermine the inclusive, flexible model of ESDP that the EU and NATO”—[Official Report, 11/5/04; col. 242]—

have agreed. That comes from a Minister in a previous Government. It is extremely telling and sums up the case very well. However, there would be confusion about any decision that resulted in the establishment of a single integrated military force. For example, would the establishment of an integrated command structure or integrated units or the achievement of integrated budgets count? It is just that lack of clarity that allows for the sort of competence-creep which caused so much distrust and which we are trying to overcome in the Bill.

In addition, we have concerns about a move to a common defence that goes beyond the establishment of a common force. A decision to move to a common defence could lead to the loss by the British Parliament of final decisions over whether to send our troops into harm’s way. Like the previous Government, we think it is vital that the UK is able to maintain an independent defence policy. Indeed, it was one of the red lines during negotiation of the Lisbon treaty, and I cannot understand the Labour Opposition wanting to move away from that today. I accept that a common defence is ill defined but that problem would not be solved with this amendment, which could apply only to the UK. Instead, our promise is that any decision to move to a common defence should be subject to the full scrutiny of the British public.

I have gone on for a long time but this has been a huge debate. There are many vital issues to address and it would be wrong to ignore them. I am pleased that noble Lords recognise the utility of the referendum lock in its application to any proposal to abolish our border controls or adopt the euro. However, I ask your Lordships also to consider the sheer inconsistency of seeking to remove from Clause 6 other measures that would transfer further competence and power from the UK to the EU. They are directly related to the crucial six issues on which successive Governments have insisted they want to protect Britain while being forward and active in encouraging the European Union within their full competences. This is a good European policy and the Bill reinforces it. It should be supported and the amendment should be withdrawn.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick]

My Lords, I am most grateful to all noble Lords who have contributed to this lengthy and interesting debate. I hope that I may be forgiven for saying that there were moments during the afternoon when I thought we were moving back to the future—namely, heading rapidly towards a Second Reading debate. A fair number of contributions bore little relation to the amendments on the Marshalled List but a great deal to the discussions that we had during Second Reading. However, I shall not follow that road now, when we need to focus on the amendments in a much more controlled way.

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Howell of Guildford, for his very thoughtful response and for being so frank about the fact that, although those in whose names the amendments stand were introducing an element of compromise, he did not intend to do so. That was made extremely clear and I hope that all those who listened to the debate will draw the appropriate conclusions from the lack of flexibility on the part of the Government.

There are not many detailed points that need to be referred to. A certain amount of a meal was made by those who spoke against the wording of the amendment relating to an integrated military force. What we are talking about is fairly obvious. We are talking about our old friend—much beloved of the Daily Mail—the European army. We are talking about, for example, our treaty commitment in NATO under which we are part of an integrated military force. I only say to the noble Lord, Lord Waddington, that he will know very well that the NATO obligations apply in exactly the same way to the Navy and the Air Force as they do to the Army. The use of the word “military” is not exclusive to the Army. Therefore, it is obvious what the amendment tries to do: it tries to ensure that, if we were ever to have a British Government who wanted to move in that direction, they would have to submit the matter to a referendum. That is a recognition by those in whose names the amendments stand that the Government are right to have identified that issue as one of fundamental constitutional significance. However, I am afraid that issues such as whom we fought alongside in Iraq are totally irrelevant. We did not fight in Iraq on the basis of any treaty whatever; we fought on the basis of a coalition of the willing without a legal base. Therefore, we should not get muddled up with that issue. There seems to be less trouble about the euro and Schengen. Then, ultimately we come back to the question of whether we should be trying to reduce the number of potential individual referendums. The arguments for that are very strong.

I have been a little saddened by the way in which so many of the protagonists of the Bill and the opponents of the amendments have denigrated the parliamentary process. They have, in fact, thrown up their hands and said that it is completely useless. They seem to have discovered the whipping system, which I think has been in effect since the 18th century or perhaps even earlier, as being at the root of all this evil. That is pretty sad. There are quite a lot of former Whips sitting here and I do not see them covering their heads in sackcloth and ashes and saying that they made terrible mistakes by doing so. It has been part of our constitutional practice for a very long time and we have managed to achieve greater constitutional stability than a lot of countries that do not have it. It is a bit sad that we should be heading off in the direction of plebiscitary democracy-a-go-go instead of thinking about how to make our parliamentary institutions work more effectively. That is why one of the most important points made by the proponents of the amendments is the fact that you need primary legislation for every single change in the Bill. That is really important. It is the way to make parliamentary scrutiny more effective and that is what is needed—not a dash towards plebiscites, which is a very revolutionary approach. I have to say that it comes from a rather unlikely band of revolutionaries from a party whose name suggests that they are counter-revolutionaries. Nevertheless, I think that it is a move in the wrong direction and I should therefore like to test the opinion of the House.

European Union Bill

Lord Howell of Guildford Excerpts

Monday 13th June 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Triesman]

My Lords, it may dismay the House, but I will pick up from the point where this argument has arrived. Like the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, when I looked at the proposal put forward by my noble friend Lord Davies of Stamford, it did not seem to me that the consequence of it was that there would be an immediate move without any further ado to qualified majority voting. Instead, there would be a very substantial process before anybody got there, even if they had the desire to get there. It seemed that whatever difficulties and barriers were raised by those who thought it best to have a closed-market system rather than an open-market system in the defence industry, it would be harder in the middle and long term for them to sustain the restriction on free markets were they to be deprived of the veto as the automatic response. In short, over a period of time—I am sure that it would be over a period of time if it happened at all—it might be possible through a different mechanism to change from this restriction to a free-market solution.

It may be thought curious that from this opposition Bench I argue trenchantly for free markets in Europe. However, it does not seem odd to me; I have held this view consistently for a very long time. Like my noble friend Lord Davies, it appears to me that when we take a serious and hard view of the areas in our manufacturing industry where we might be very successful, among them are the products of our defence industries. They are very fine industries; they are hallmarked by exceptional research and development; they are among the industries that co-operate most successfully and most frequently with the best of our university departments that are working in the same areas of research and development; they manage to do it on a large scale; and they manage to create extremely valuable intellectual properties of a kind that we cannot always achieve in many other parts of our manufacturing life.

As a former Minister responsible for intellectual property, I frequently came at this from a different ministerial portfolio from that of my noble friend Lord Davies, but none the less I was frequently full of admiration for the high quality of patents that were created in that industry and very well aware of the value that they could inject into free-market circumstances. It is very easy to see why, even when there is a concrete commercial rationale for this country, there will be others who will seek protectionism because they are fearful that their industries cannot compete in industries of this kind, particularly where those industries are so driven by outstanding research and development and by their links with the university research world. It is a tough environment to compete in—that is for sure—but that does not seem to me to be a reason to protect those kinds of industries in other countries any more than somebody could argue that we should simply protect them in our country from any difficult winds and buffeting of international competition in a fully commercial sense.

I can also understand the argument that some of those countries will be looking at industries—as we have in defence in the past—as being of considerable strategic importance and we have been cautious about whether that strategic importance should be so lightly set aside. Westland helicopters and so on have been examples of it. However, broadly speaking, we have been at our best as a country when we have been prepared in free markets to compete where we can and to achieve results on the basis of the excellence of what some of our manufacturing industries can do with freedom to operate properly in markets.

In summary, I return to the point that the noble Lord, Lord Davies, has made, that the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, was making and that I made at the beginning of my remarks. Nothing in this proposal moves us with any suddenness onto a different trajectory. I am loath to believe that the House and the general sentiment in this House would be against the possibility of the full operation of free markets and the benefit to United Kingdom industry of competition in a free market, especially where we believe that we can succeed way beyond many of our competitors in that market. It is a very strong argument and I hope that it will appeal to any free marketer looking at the benefits of the European Union in free market terms, which, many noble Lords have urged, were among the founding reasons that they could see for the rationale of the EU in the first place. I support this amendment and I believe that, on free market arguments alone, it should succeed.

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

My Lords, this amendment seeks to remove Article 346(2) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union from Schedule 1 to the Bill. The article has appeared verbatim in every European treaty since 1957, so it is not new on the scene. At present, unanimity is required for changes made to the list of military products for which single market provisions do not apply. Under the Bill, a proposal to move to QMV would require approval by Act and by referendum. The noble Lord, Lord Hannay, and others are correct that it does not immediately mean that the veto is removed. It merely means that the move would require approval by Act and by referendum. The amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Davies, would remove that requirement.

The noble Lord, Lord Davies, spoke at length on this issue during day six in Committee, and he has spoken again now. Of course, he has considerable experience as Minister for Defence Equipment and Support, and in my view he has made the case extremely well that there could be some benefits to the UK from a move to QMV in this area. Having conceded that point, I hope that he and other noble Lords will excuse me if I now at least set out the other side of the argument, particularly as the noble Lord, Lord Davies, has just said that there is no guarantee that his proposal would work. Why is that so? It is because a move to QMV would also come at considerable cost to the UK, which a responsible Government have to consider. We must remember that this article is sensitive, as it applies to national security and defence. It is one of the wires that feeds directly into the red lines that all parties in the United Kingdom and other member states have always maintained during treaty change negotiations. Obviously that applies to previous Governments as well as this one.

The noble Lord, Lord Davies, said with some passion that Article 346 of the TFEU is a protectionist measure and he portrayed the Government as,

“using a referendum to block the removal of a derogation from the single market legislation”.—[Official Report, 17/5/11; col. 1364.]

The noble Lord, Lord Triesman, has spoken in the same vein just now. I have to point out that the UK’s veto could be used also to block any proposals to extend the protectionist measures with which the noble Lord understandably takes issue. A qualified majority could push through decisions which would favour greater national discretion and protection. The list, which has been unchanged—

[Lord Kerr of Kinlochard]

I thank the Minister for letting me intervene. The point that he is making is absolutely right—it could work either way—but the trouble is that the list is very long now. The UK interest is to have the list reduced. The list is very long because particular countries have particular little defence industries which they are keen to protect. The chances of it being possible to reduce the list are therefore low but would be enhanced if there were qualified majority voting on the composition of the list. We are starting from a bad place. It is unlikely to get worse; it is difficult to get it better; but you cannot get it better without qualified majority voting.

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

It is unlikely to be shortened, but I do not think that any of us can be sure. Protectionist pressures operate all the time, particularly in the defence industries. as the noble Lord, Lord Davies, knows better than all of us, and will continue to do so. The noble Lord said that the position is unlikely to get worse, but I think that we have to guard against that. A qualified majority could push through decisions which favoured greater national discretion and those pressures exist. The list has been unchanged since 1958 and can be expanded as well as contracted. I have before me the list as it is at present; it is a long list. It could certainly be expanded, so keeping the veto is as much, if not more than, a guard against protectionism as a barrier to liberalism, much as one believes, as I believe very strongly, in liberal free markets. The noble Lord’s zest for liberalism, which is certainly equalled by mine, could end up the opposite way round.

[Lord Kerr of Kinlochard]

The Minister is now making a general argument against the Single European Act and against having qualified majority voting on any area of the single market because it might go the wrong way and in a protectionist direction. All history suggests that the Single European Act was a good bargain. On the whole, it got us a more open market. It was a good, Conservative, market-driven measure which worked pretty well. The exception of defence goods is there because it was there before we joined the European Union. We have to my knowledge always argued against applying single market disciplines, which we believe in, to all sectors of the economy. That is the argument for the amendment.

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I am not a Latin scholar, but I have a feeling that there is a Latin phrase to describe what the noble Lord is doing, which is projecting from a particular area which has its particular features and qualities, with which we are all quite familiar, on to the general case for free markets and expansion of trade, which we all seek, as we have done throughout the history of our membership of the European Union and will continue to do. I suppose that the noble Lord’s proposition is that the interweaving of political pressures and the defence and security industries operates just the same as everything else. I do not believe that it does; I just have to disagree with him. In this case, we are dealing with different pressures which are evident to those who examine these patterns. There are dangers as well as gains.

Retaining unanimity does not prevent product list changes, but it ensures that we can oppose any decisions that seek to install greater, inappropriate levels of protectionism for products—weapons, equipment, trucks, APVs and all the rest—that we feel should not be exempt from single market provisions. This allows us to take decisions on the basis of what would be best for the effectiveness of the single market and our own defence industry. Unanimity enables us to oppose removal of any products in the list where that would have unwelcome consequences for the UK and might prevent us from acting quickly to secure the right equipment for our troops in times of urgent need. I reassure noble Lords that, despite the doubts that have been expressed, the Government fully support the goal of better value for money through collective arrangements for identifying gaps and procuring equipment, pooling our multinational capabilities and forces wherever we can.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Williams of Crosby]

I will always take instructions from my former colleague, the noble Lord on the other Benches. I commend him on the pressure that he has brought to bear on the issue, which is of immense importance.

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

My Lords, when my noble friend Lady Williams speaks about the need for strengthening the teaching in schools and in citizenship classes of Britain's role in, and relationship with, Europe—and dare I say in the Commonwealth generally and in the new landscape that is building around us—it strikes a chord with me. She is absolutely right that the quality of teaching needs a considerable uplift in this area.

I will begin with a tiny bit of propaganda for the Foreign and Commonwealth Office. We have supported the Hansard Society in producing a new booklet to help citizenship teachers teach secondary school pupils about the European Union and our role—our very effective role, despite some minor criticism in the European Union and in Europe generally. We are taking action to improve the resources available, as citizenship teachers asked us to do. That is the kind of way forward that we should all work towards instead of spending a lot of time sitting around talking down our nation and its extraordinary talents and abilities to adjust to the new world situation.

I wish I could say such enthusiastic things about this amendment. It strikes me as a bit curious because it seeks to place a statutory requirement on the new Bill that, during a referendum held under the provisions of the Clauses 2, 3 and 6, or in implementing any of the other provisions of this legislation, the Government of the day should have regard to the benefits of the UK’s continued membership of the European Union. This sounds as though there is a desire to switch on a light at this particular moment rather than concentrate on the broader issues reflected in the observations of the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, and of the noble Lord, Lord Radice, that these matters cannot just be switched on and off but require sustained and effective narrative—not propaganda but an effective story to show how we fit into, how we contribute to and how we are able to draw strength from associations in the European Union and elsewhere.

As the noble Lord, Lord Triesman, candidly admitted, the past record has not been too brilliant, to put it mildly. If one just looks at those who have been in government over the last decade—which happens to be one party—one can see that they have not achieved a dazzling success in uplifting public support for, or even public awareness of, the role that this country has played, is playing and is capable of playing in the future in the European Union. When we discussed this amendment in Committee, the noble Lord, Lord Radice, said that the EU Bill was,

“based on the wrong premise about our membership",

and that instead,

“we should recognise that the sharing of responsibilities with our partners has been good for Britain and good for Europe”.

We have no difficulty with that. As I tried to make clear in Committee, we fully recognise the benefits of EU membership and the flow both ways of advantage of our being a key member of the European Union. This Bill does nothing whatever to alter our current commitments within the European Union, nor our current active engagement within the existing powers and competences of the EU, which are very extensive, nor indeed our positioning to reform and equip the EU for the 21st-century challenges that lie ahead, because, just as we are trying to adjust the position of this country to the new landscape, so everyone recognises that the European Union as a whole needs to do the same.

The noble Lord, Lord Radice, also said,

“according to public opinion polls, the British remain reluctant Europeans and fairly ill informed about the EU”.—[Official Report, 23/6/11; cols. 1626-27.]

That just about sums up the key concern that this Bill has been crafted to focus on. It is that reluctance that the Bill seeks to address by making clear to the public that they will have their say over any future transfers of power and competence and that a future Government will have to make the case as to why such changes are in the national interest. That is the aspiration of this Government for the future. It is nonsense to say that it binds future Parliaments, which we cannot do, but that is our aspiration. This is a construction, an architecture that will be sustained and built to help the EU in the future.

Let me remind noble Lords that for a referendum to be held under the terms of this Bill, both the Government and Parliament have to be in favour of the proposed treaty, as many of my noble friends and indeed almost every speaker have recognised. That is the starting point for any referendum activity. Otherwise, if the Government did not like the measure, they could block it at the European Council, or Parliament could simply legislate against it. Parliament would be fully in control. Therefore, the change in question would have to be considered by the Government to be in the national interest before it could be put to Parliament. That would be the necessity, the sine qua non. While the referenda provisions will help address the reluctance that exists in Britain and that must be faced, no one is claiming that they are sufficient to address the general lack of information on, understanding of and enthusiasm for the European Union. Clearly, that cannot be done just when action under the Bill is needed. The oddity of the amendment is that it so inadvertently implies that action is switched on only when there is activity under the Bill, not least because the EU Bill focuses on future changes to the treaties and does not call into question our membership of the European Union.

Yemen

Lord Howell of Guildford Excerpts

Thursday 9th June 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Clinton-Davis]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to secure the departure of United Kingdom citizens from Yemen.

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford)]

My Lords, we remain extremely concerned at the situation in Yemen. Recent events have shown how quickly the security situation can deteriorate. Since 12 March this year, we have been urging all British nationals to leave Yemen without delay by commercial carriers. My right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary issued a statement on 3 June repeating the message in our travel advice to all British nationals to leave by commercial means, adding that people should not plan for or expect the British Government to be in a position to assist them to reach safety. In the other place, on 7 June, he repeated the message that an assisted evacuation will be extremely unlikely. The embassy in San’a retains a core complement of staff. With consular staff in London and at our passport processing centre in Paris, we are working with the embassy to ensure that all those eligible for British travel documents receive them as soon as possible.

[Lord Clinton-Davis]

I thank the noble Lord for that Answer, but will he be more specific about the situation in relation to members of the embassy staff, who face a particular threat from the authorities in Yemen? Does he agree that, with a president who nominally heads a discredited regime—I witnessed it myself several years ago—and is ignored by Governments of all persuasions, the position there is extremely dangerous and uncertain?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

The noble Lord is absolutely right: the extreme danger is unquestionable. We have drawn down the staff at our embassy to a small, core team and a further withdrawal of staff may be necessary if conditions dictate—we are watching the situation very carefully indeed. For obvious reasons, which I know the noble Lord will understand, it would be wrong for me to comment in detail on any contingency plan, but that is the position.

[Baroness Falkner of Margravine]

My Lords, are the Government minded to support opposition demands for a presidential council to be established in Yemen to ease the transition from power and to send a clear message to President Saleh that he is no longer fit to rule? Will my noble friend also tell the House whether he believes that the Friends of Yemen group has any further usefulness, given that it is so closely aligned to the old regime?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

Our general position is strong support for the Gulf Cooperation Council’s plans, which have been brought forward with considerable detail and support from the neighbouring countries and the whole region. We believe that, for the moment, that is the best plan on the table. I certainly concede to my noble friend that it is not working well at the moment, but that seems to be the best possible avenue through which one could begin to see some kind of settlement emerge. That is all that I can say at the moment, beyond the fact that, of course, the United Nations remains very interested and is watching the situation closely as well.

[Lord Dykes]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that it is essential for the British Government to be even-handed in their attitude to all the countries involved in the Arab spring revolution and to wish the local population well in that process? Should that not also include Israel? Have the Government taken steps to ask the Israeli military to exercise restraint and not to shoot at unarmed civilians?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

This Question is about Yemen. We certainly aim for even-handedness in pursuing our own principles and values but, unfortunately, as every country has different situations that require delicate and different handling beyond the general principles, we have to appreciate, respect and understand the inner workings of these countries to be effective.

[Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean]

My Lords, the situation in Yemen has been very grave—it has been a fragile state—for a long time. We all owe a debt of gratitude to those members of the Foreign Office who are still prepared to stay in the embassy, given that it has come under attack on a number of occasions. I know that this is very difficult, but, given that we know that Yemen will be the target of groups such as al-Qaeda, will the Minister assure us that in the possible eventual absence of British personnel on the ground, none the less we will be able to monitor properly what is going on in Yemen and not leave it solely to Yemen’s neighbours to pass information to us? I hope that the noble Lord can give us that assurance, without going into detail.

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

That clearly would be the ideal. I cannot go into precise contingency arrangements for the channels and passage of our information. Obviously, we need to get high-quality information of the best kind. On the question of al-Qaeda involvement, there is constant concern that al-Qaeda training groups are operating in the area. Some people have an interest in pursuing and purveying the story in one way and others in presenting it in another, so getting accurate information is bound to be difficult. Of course, the noble Baroness, with her considerable experience, is right to urge that our channels of information should remain as good and direct as we can possibly engineer.