Government of France: Meetings

Lord Howell of Guildford Excerpts

Tuesday 12th June 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Dykes]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what principal issues they intend to raise in their forthcoming meetings with President Hollande and members of the new Government of France.

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford)]

My Lords, France is an important partner for the United Kingdom and our dialogue is wide-ranging. The Government look forward to continuing their close co-operation with new French Government, including on foreign and defence policy, energy and immigration. My right honourable friend the Prime Minister had a warm first meeting with President Hollande in Washington. He has invited him to visit London after the French parliamentary elections this month. Other Ministers across government have also met or contacted their new counterparts.

[Lord Dykes]

I thank my noble friend for that Answer. With the French Government securing ever greater support for their EU-wide growth agenda, particularly now that they are armed with decisive strength in the French Parliament, including when next Sunday’s results are taken into account, does he agree that it would be very fitting for HMG to join that European-wide effort, because there is now an increasingly urgent need to offset the threat of an international slump?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

Yes, we all have to join in the efforts to bring about recovery and end recession in our region and globally. These are matters that we discuss closely with the French. We agree with some of the ideas behind the various projects which Monsieur Hollande has put forward—what has been called the “Hollande vision”—but disagree with others. We have a perfectly amicable difference of view on, for instance, a financial transaction tax, which we believe would be damaging and would, according to the European Commission’s own analysis, take €200 billion out of the European economy. However, on other ideas of Monsieur Hollande—project bonds for infrastructure expansion, for instance—we concur. We reject the idea that there are two alternative strategies that are exclusive: austerity or growth. The answer is that sound budgetary discipline and growth all go together in a sensible and balanced programme.

[Lord Peston]

My Lords, do I understand the Minister to be saying that Her Majesty’s Government do not intend to tell off President Hollande for pursuing his foolhardy expansionary policies and not following our contractionary policies with all the enormous benefits of rising unemployment?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

The noble Lord should not understand that, because I find his question rather hard to understand as well. The polarity of argument that he poses simply does not exist. The aim of Governments throughout Europe and throughout the global system is to restore expansion. We welcome the ideas of the French and of Monsieur Hollande where we think they would go in that direction, just as I think France and all responsible countries recognise that there has to be tight budgetary discipline as well, otherwise the efforts to expand if they immediately jack up interest rates would simply cancel out the policy. There is a matter of balance, and the noble Lord is better than most at understanding the need for balance in economics rather than one side or the other.

[Baroness Falkner of Margravine]

My Lords, does my noble friend agree that while a pro-growth pact in Europe is welcome, it seems to be a bit of challenge to reduce a budget deficit supposedly exceeding even Italy’s by 2017, while magicking up 3.5% growth next year and massively cutting unemployment? It is a very ambitious project. If it is likely to succeed, will we listen very carefully to the ideas that bring it about, particularly after next Sunday when we might see a few more details of these plans?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

These are challenging demands, and they are obviously creating great strains and tensions in the countries affected. In a way, my noble friend has asked me to comment not so much on Monsieur Hollande’s wish to see expansion, which we all share, as on the German wish to stick very rigidly to certain austere budget disciplines. Somewhere between those two, and perhaps in talks between Monsieur Hollande and Chancellor Angela Merkel, there will emerge a sensible balance. We hope that there will and we shall certainly contribute to anything that achieves that.

[Lord Grenfell]

My Lords, will the Minister accept a mild rebuke from me on the pronunciation of the names of French Presidents? I declare an interest. It seems a failing of successive Governments to get the names of French Presidents properly pronounced. The previous President was inevitably and almost always referred to as Mr Sarkozy as if it was meant to rhyme with tea cosy, when in fact it does not; and President Hollande is President Hollande and not President Hollander.

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I totally accept those extremely wise rebukes from the noble Lord about my French pronunciation. It has never been very good; I will practise a lot more to see whether I can improve it.

[Lord King of Bridgwater]

Does my noble friend accept that the Question goes generally to our relations with France, and in this connection to the very important issue of defence co-operation with France? I hope that we can see the continuation of the co-operation envisaged under the previous President.

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

Yes, that is certainly the intention. Those matters have been discussed both between the Prime Minister and Monsieur Hollande and between my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary and Laurent Fabius, the new French Foreign Secretary. Obviously a question was raised by our decision to go for the JSF variant rather than the original pattern under the strategic defence review. That has been discussed. Any suggestion of misunderstanding has been removed and both sides fully intend to co-operate very closely in the future on all defence matters.

[Lord Tomlinson]

My Lords, in an earlier reply, the Minister talked about the policies for constraint in public expenditure as well as those for growth. Can he give us a quick summary of the steps that Her Majesty’s Government are taking to promote growth at the moment?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

Not in the time allowed, no. There is a perfectly sensible proposition that, although the growth of public expenditure has been restrained—in some areas, not actually cut at all—this is a necessary part of getting a balanced, suitably relaxed monetary policy in as far as it can be relaxed, paving the way for further expenditure on infrastructure, of which some has been authorised. One hopes that in future there will be more. This is the rebalancing of the economy that all sensible people are aiming for.

[Lord Anderson of Swansea]

The Minister will recall with a certain amount of embarrassment that we on this side of the House welcomed candidate Hollande to London during his election campaign.

Going back to defence co-operation, the Minister well knows that we and France are the serious players in defence within the European Union. We both face economic difficulties. Has there been any signal yet from the new French Government that they wish not only to continue our substantial defence co-operation but even to enhance it?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

On the second point, there has been a signal that they wish to enhance co-operation in a number of areas. On the question of welcoming opposition candidates to London, my right honourable friend is not physically in a position to be able to meet every opposition candidate. Other leaders such as Chancellor Merkel and Mr Monti in Italy did not meet Monsieur Hollande before he became President, but that was not taken as a snub or an offence; it was a perfectly normal procedure. Now they have met and have got on very well.

[Lord Taverne]

My Lords, will the Government discuss with the French President the problem that the present programme of imposed austerity offers no prospect whatever to either Greece or possibly Spain of ever recovering from depression?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

There is emerging an understanding, not least from the contribution of the new French President but also from discussions with Germany—and, indeed, from the latest moves in relation to the banking union and the proposals for bank recapitalisation for Spain—that some balance has to be struck. Whether that will mean some easing of the conditions for Greece or not, I do not know. These matters are now being discussed between the eurozone countries. There is a sensible way forward and obviously my noble friend makes the perfectly valid point that if the cure is so violent that it kills the patient, it is not much of a cure.

Syria

Lord Howell of Guildford Excerpts

Monday 11th June 2012 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford)]

My Lords, with the leave of the House, I will repeat a Statement made earlier in the other place:

“Mr Speaker, with permission I will make a statement on Syria. The whole House will be united in support for the Syrian people, who have endured 15 months of fear and suffering. Eighty-seven thousand people have fled to neighbouring countries and up to 500,000 are internally displaced. As many as 15,000 people may have died and thousands of political prisoners are imprisoned and at risk of mistreatment and torture.

Each day reports emerge of savage crimes. The Syrian military is surrounding and bombarding towns with heavy weaponry, and then unleashing militia groups to terrorise and murder civilians in their homes. These deliberate military tactics are horrifyingly reminiscent of the Balkans in the 1990s.

Two weeks ago in Houla, 108 civilians died in this manner, including 49 children under the age of 10. A similar atrocity appears to have been committed last week in al-Qubair, where 78 people were killed, including women and children. UN monitors attempting to report on these events have been shot at and obstructed.

These grotesque crimes have illuminated to the world the nature of the events in Syria and the conduct of the Assad regime, which is attempting with utter inhumanity to sow terror, break the spirit of opposition in Syria and try to reassert control. This is as futile as it is morally reprehensible. By branding its opponents terrorists and using tanks against them, the regime is driving Syrians to take up arms to defend their homes; by singling out particular communities, it is inflaming sectarian tension.

There are credible reports of human rights abuses and sectarian attacks by armed opposition fighters, which we also utterly condemn. We also have reason to believe that terrorist groups affiliated to al-Qaeda have committed attacks designed to exacerbate the violence, with serious implications for international security.

As a result, today Syria is on the edge of civil war. This could lead to thousands more casualties, a humanitarian disaster, human rights violations on an even greater scale and instability in neighbouring countries.

We are working intensively to find a peaceful means of resolving the crisis. Our approach, in close co-ordination with our European partners is, first, to push for implementation of the Annan plan as the internationally agreed road map to end the violence; secondly, to increase the pressure and isolation felt by the regime; and, thirdly, to ensure justice, accountability and humanitarian assistance for the Syrian people. I will take each of these in turn.

First, the UN and Arab League envoy for Syria, Kofi Annan, has set out a six-point plan to end the violence and to start a political process to address the legitimate aspirations of the Syrian people. It is backed by two UN Security Council resolutions, 2042 and 2043. The latter mandated the deployment of the 300 UN monitors who are now on the ground in Syria. I pay tribute to them for their difficult work in dangerous circumstances.

As Kofi Annan has made clear on many occasions, the onus is on the regime to call off its military assault, to adhere to a ceasefire and to allow a process of political reform. Political transition must be based on democratic principles and reflect the needs of all Syria’s minority communities, including the Kurds, Christians and Alawites.

On 1 April, the Syrian regime committed itself to implementing the Annan plan and on 12 April announced a ceasefire. It has not kept to either of these commitments. Two weeks ago, I discussed the situation with my Russian counterpart, Sergei Lavrov, in Moscow. I made the case for Russia using its crucial leverage with the Assad regime to ensure the full implementation of the Annan plan, since the collapse of Syria or descent into civil war would be against Russian interests as well as those of the wider world. I also raised the issue of arms sales to the Syrian regime, which we believe should be stopped immediately.

In Istanbul on 1 June, I held talks with members of the Syrian National Council and other opposition representatives including Kurds, and I returned there last week for discussions with Secretary Clinton, the Turkish Foreign Minister and the Foreign Ministers of 12 European and Arab nations. I am in regular contact with Kofi Annan, and preparations are in hand for a meeting of the Friends of Syria group, which now numbers more than 80 countries, in early July.

Last Thursday, the Russian Government put forward their own proposal for an international conference on Syria. Such a meeting could help generate momentum behind the Annan plan. However, it would have to be a meeting that led to a change on the ground and did not just buy time for the regime to kill more innocent people. In our view, any such meeting would need to be based on a common understanding that it would lead to a political transition; it should include genuine steps to implement the Annan plan; and it should involve only nations that are committed to being part of the solution in Syria. We will discuss with our partners whether it is possible to agree concerted international action on this basis, discussions which my right honourable friend the Prime Minister will take forward with other Heads of Government when he attends the G20 meeting in Mexico next week.

Making a success of the Annan plan also requires the Syrian National Council and other opposition groups to put aside their differences, to unite around the common goal of a democratic transition and to assure all Syria’s minorities that their rights will be protected in a multiethnic and democratic Syrian state. This has been my consistent message in all my discussions with opposition figures. We welcome the meetings with opposition groups that will be held in Istanbul later this week and subsequently in Cairo, which have our active support.

The Annan plan is not an open-ended commitment. It cannot be used indefinitely by the regime to play for time. If the Annan plan is not implemented, we will argue for a new and robust UN Security Council resolution aimed at compelling the regime to meet its commitments under the plan, and requiring all parties to comply with it. We have already begun discussions at the Security Council on the elements of a resolution. We do not want to see the Annan plan fail but, if despite our best efforts it does not succeed, we would have to consider other options for resolving the crisis and, in our view, all options should then be on the table.

Secondly, we are taking steps to increase the isolation of the Syrian regime. On 29 May we expelled three Syrian diplomats from London, including the chargé d’affaires, in co-ordination with the US, Canada, Australia, France, Germany and Japan and other countries that took similar steps. We are in discussions with Arab League and like-minded countries about measures to tighten the stranglehold on the regime’s resources and external sources of support, building on the 15 rounds of EU sanctions that already target 128 individuals and 43 entities.

Thirdly, we are acting to help end impunity for atrocities, and we are supporting the humanitarian needs and legitimate aspirations of the Syrian people. Britain co-sponsored the UN Human Rights Council resolution of 1 June, which was carried by 41 votes to three. It condemned the al-Houlah massacre, mandated the UN commission of inquiry to investigate and gather evidence about it, and highlighted the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights’s recommendation that the UN Security Council refer Syria to the International Criminal Court. We are working on a further UN Human Rights Council resolution to reinforce these objectives.

We also sent a team of British experts to Syria’s borders in February and March to gather testimony from Syrians. The team found evidence of violations of international law and international human rights law, including murder, rape, torture, unlawful imprisonment, enforced disappearance and persecution. This work to document abuses is being continued. The team of Syrians which has helped document the al-Houlah massacre was trained by the United Kingdom, and we are working closely with the United States and the UN commission of inquiry to ensure that any evidence is collated and stored for use in a future legal process. We are increasing UK funding for the Syrian opposition and civil society groups, including £1.5 million of assistance in this financial year to help provide human rights monitoring and media training for activists, and other non-lethal support such as communications equipment.

My right honourable friend the International Development Secretary and his department are working with the UN and international community to ensure that urgent humanitarian assistance gets to the 1 million people estimated to be in need. The Syrian regime has now agreed a plan to respond to humanitarian needs. There can be no further delay in its implementation, and humanitarian agencies must be allowed full and unhindered access to all areas in Syria. Britain has helped provide emergency food supplies for nearly 24,000 families inside Syria, safe drinking water for 30,000 people, blankets for 5,000 people, medical assistance for up to 25,000 people and support to refugees in neighbouring countries.

The coming weeks must see an intensified and urgent international effort to stop the violence and restore hope to Syria. The British Government remain absolutely focused on this goal. If all the efforts that I have described fail, then Britain will work with the Friends of Syria group to increase the isolation of the regime and to adopt sweeping new sanctions across the world.

We will not rule out any other option which could at any stage stop the bloodshed, We will not relent in our efforts to ensure the political transition, justice, accountability and security that the Syrian people need and deserve, and to support greater political and economic freedom in the Middle East. This freedom is not only the legitimate right of all the peoples of the region; it is the foundation of lasting peace, stability and prosperity.

The time has long passed for the Assad regime to stop the killing and torturing of its people, and it is time now for all nations on the UN Security Council to insist on the cessation of violence and political process which remain the only peaceful way to resolve this mounting crisis”.

My Lords, that concludes the Statement.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for her support for the work of the UN and the broad thrust of what the nations, including this nation, are seeking to do, and for her candid and telling analysis of the grimness of the situation, on which she fully concurs with the Government.

A great many of her questions touch on the position of Russia—I counted four or five—so I shall deal with those first and then her other questions. First, the key matter is: what can we do to reinforce or reassert the momentum of the Annan plan, which has clearly been ignored—disavowed, indeed—by various parties in Syria? The answer begins and ends with the question of Russia and, to some extent, China. It is the Russian position in, apparently, continuing to supply arms and the Russian and Chinese reluctance to see a UN Security Council resolution of the kind we wanted to go forward that prevents the council from bringing forward any such resolution and, no doubt, gives licence and encouragement to other countries such as Venezuela to carry on supplying and trading with Syria.

As the noble Baroness knows, my right honourable friend went to Moscow. He talked to Sergei Lavrov. The idea now from the Russians is that there should be an international conference. The Statement which I read indicates that that might work, that might be worth taking forward, but we would have to have a very firm agenda and make sure that it was not just an excuse for a lot more talking and no further action while people continue to be murdered in hideous and evil ways.

That is the assessment we have to put before our Russian friends and the Chinese. They are great and responsible nations in the community of nations and in the world civil order, and we believe that they should be brought to see that if there is a combined front, there is the possibility for much tougher action to close down the loopholes and routes by which arms and equipment are procured and oil is traded out and the stranglehold made increasingly effective. That is the broad answer to the whole question of what we should now do to invigorate the aims and aspirations of the Annan plan and the ideals behind it. It had six very clear aspirations, all of which in general terms are agreed, but they must be made to work and that requires action of the kind which many countries want but, apparently, not yet the Russians and the Chinese. That is where we have to work. The oil embargo could then be tightened up and there could be tougher moves on international communication.

The noble Baroness asked about defections. There could be more encouragement there. It is obviously reassuring that senior people are moving across, abandoning the Assad operations, and we want to encourage more of that. Whether we could make the names of targeted individuals more widely known is something that we certainly would consider as we try to work out with our EU colleagues how tougher sanctions can be developed.

The assessment of al-Qaeda involvement is difficult. Basically, one has to understand that al-Qaeda is interested in more violence and stirring up everything, regardless of size, causes, suffering or anything else. These are unrestrainedly evil people and they no doubt take some delight in the bottomless evil of the outrages of those human beings who can destroy and murder children in cold blood. We have no illusions about that. They may well be swarming around—swarming is too strong a word, but they may be present in numbers to involve themselves in and promote and exacerbate the position. We have no doubts that that is their motivation.

I have mentioned the Russian position and the international conference. We will certainly seek to have Syria kept on the G20 agenda and the Prime Minister intends to raise it. Like the noble Baroness, I read the report this morning on the union of doctors. We were a bit surprised by it. It did not really tally with what we are seeking to do, both through the international agencies and global humanitarian aid, where we have made a substantial contribution, and through direct efforts.

If I can be associated with the matter of enclaves, although the noble Baroness did not ask about them—she talked of humanitarian corridors—for them to work it requires organised force, troops and a political will that they should be allowed to operate. That political will is not there in Syria at the moment. The stage where we would have to talk about troops has not been reached. As my right honourable friend says, all options are on the table. However, as the noble Baroness recognises, there are steps that can now be taken to toughen up the sanctions, increase the stranglehold and, we hope, bring Russia and China into stronger co-operative action. That should be tried first and is what we are now working on. We hope—indeed, we insist—that more should now be done to put the pressure on the Assad regime and on all those who are in the killing business to halt their hideous destruction and pave the way for a better Syria.

[Baroness Falkner of Margravine]

My Lords, does my noble friend accept that while the Statement is extremely detailed and sets out where the Government believe they are, it is nevertheless a sign of the impotence of the international community that we have found ourselves in a position where the Russian Government have been able to propose an international conference in Syria which will undoubtedly push the situation into the long grass? That is not least because, as my noble friend repeated, the Statement says,

“it should only involve nations that are committed to being part of the solution in Syria”.

When we have Russia, Saudi Arabia and Qatar, which have all been on different sides of the argument, arming combatants in the regions, it is hardly likely that they would be able to achieve a consensus behind the Annan plan or, particularly, to protect the rights of minorities in the region. Will my noble friend tell the House what we will do when that open-ended commitment to the Annan plan is dropped and what steps might we take? Would we then look to our own duties under the norms of responsibility to protect?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I understand my noble friend’s feelings, which are largely mine, that the Annan plan is not working and has to be reinforced. We think that is the pathway forward and that the principles behind it are right, but clearly the killing and the horror continue on a totally unacceptable, impossible and outrageous scale, so something more must now be tried. When my noble friend talks about nations not being committed, she should bear in mind that the one uncommitted nation actively promoting the arming of the Syrian regime is Iran. The Iranians are the ones who should not be included in any further conference, although it has been suggested by some that they are clearly actively opposed to any kind of path towards peace and settlement. That is what that phrase is really aimed at; that Iran is on the side of violence, and more violence.

I do not necessarily share my noble friend’s view that the talks with Russia and with the Chinese are never going to work and that there will never be some understanding that this cannot go on and that there must be a united effort to close up the loopholes and stop the arms supplies by the really big powers, such as Russia and so on. I do not share her view that this is an impossible aim. I do not say that we have got there but this has to be worked on, combined with all the other sanctions and proposals that we are now committed to, to end the violence and repression.

[The Lord Bishop of London]

My Lords, everyone will recognise that Her Majesty’s Government are dealing with a tragic and complex situation. Again and again in the Statement that the Minister repeated, the rights of minorities were drawn attention to. Have Her Majesty’s Government been able to make direct contact with the substantial Christian minority, who are 10% of the population of Syria and whose influence on the Russian Government is not inconsiderable? There is certainly direct contact between the Christian minority and the Russians. If there is, as the Minister underlined, an absolute commitment to defusing the fears of the minority communities in Syria, which must be part of any kind of moving forward, have Her Majesty’s Government been able to use the channels of communication that exist with the various Christian communities that make up that 10% minority in Syria?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

The right reverend Prelate is absolutely right that the Christian position is important. All along, we have heard suggestions that while the Christians may find repulsive what the Assad regime is doing, they also fear alternative regimes. Instability might jeopardise their position even further, so they are definitely an important part in the jigsaw of possible pressures in the future. I think that is as much as I can say.

As far as direct contact is concerned, I am not in a position to say exactly what contacts HMG have had with the Christian minorities. We have encouraged all of the Syrian opposition groups to reach out to minority communities and maintain a clear commitment to a peaceful, non-sectarian approach. We have insisted that they reassure all Syrians that they are working towards a Syrian state which is inclusive, representative and respectful of the ethnic and religious minorities. That is the line we have consistently taken but I cannot really promise that it will be an absolutely guaranteed condition in a situation where bloodshed, hatred and violence are prevailing on all sides. However, it is a matter very much in our minds. Another part of the jigsaw, which the right reverend Prelate rightly raises, is that the Christians in turn could have some kind of contact and dialogue with the Russians to persuade them that the situation requires a more unified approach. That is a possibility but I do not think I can put any more flesh on these ideas at the moment.

[Lord Gilbert]

While I agree entirely with the Minister that Iran forms an important part of this problem, I disagree with him entirely that that is a reason for it not to be at a conference. I thought there was every reason for the Iranians to be at a conference to let them hear what other people think of their attitude and behaviour, and to make it clear to them that it is in their best interests to get the situation solved and to stop supplying arms to the Syrian Government if they are doing so. It seems to me that the Government’s logic is upside down on this.

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

Well, my Lords, I am not sure that I agree with the noble Lord. His views are usually very challenging and make one see things a different way, but in this case he is asking for the inclusion of a power that is actively concerned to delay and screw up—if I may use the vernacular—conferences and talks and to promote violence and is continuing to supply arms direct to the Syrian regime. It does not seem as if that would be a very good voice to have at the table at a time when we are trying to persuade other nations, such as our Russian friends, to realise the vital need for a unified approach to close off the loopholes. I understand the psychology of what he is saying—that perhaps it could work the other way around—but the best guess for the moment must be that to have the Iranians at the table and welcomed at any new conference would be a guarantee that it would produce nothing whatever.

[Lord Wright of Richmond]

My Lords, in the debate in this House on 16 March, I asked the Minister if he could give us the Government’s assessment of the assistance in terms of finance, arms and “foreign fighters” being given to the opposition in Syria. I do not know whether he is able to answer that question now, but I note that the frequent reports of assistance being given to the opposition in this area in terms of finance, men and other assistance have not been denied in the Gulf. I think that it is now accepted, certainly in the Middle East, that Saudi Arabia and Qatar have arranged between them for a massive supply of military assistance to the opposition in Syria, not with the aim of, to quote the Statement, stopping the violence and restoring hope to Syria but rather in order to replace the Shia secular regime in Damascus with an extremist Sunni regime enjoying the support, ironically, of al-Qaeda. Coincidentally, the “Today” programme this morning reported that the casualties of the regime’s forces in the past few days have outnumbered those of the opposition—a reminder, surely, that we should not immediately put all the blame for the terrible things happening in Syria on the Syrian regime.

Syria is being plunged into a secular war, with potentially disastrous consequences for the security of the Middle East and, incidentally, for the future of the Christian community to which the right reverend Prelate referred. I hope that the Minister can assure the House that the Government will not only resist the understandable pressure to intervene ourselves but will do all in our power to discourage any further military intervention by our friends and allies and will continue to do everything we can to support Kofi Annan’s mission, however unpromising its prospects.

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

The noble Lord’s presentation of, if not the immediacy then certainly the possibility of, this being a religious regional civil war between Sunni and Shia is perfectly valid. That is what it could become and perhaps in some aspects, although the situation is very complicated, is becoming already. That may well be part of the picture that he also describes of arms going to the Syrian opposition forces, though whether in massive quantities or not I do not know—I cannot give him precise figures. We do not know to what extent Saudi Arabia and Qatar, whose leaders have talked about the need for arms, are actually supplying them and whether they are doing so officially or whether it is being done by various other channels. We simply have not the means to know. We know that some arms are getting through, though whether they could be described as massive I could not corroborate. That is how the situation is developing.

My right honourable friend’s Statement made clear that not all the grim violence has been on one side. He rightly condemns any manifestations of similar horrors and outrages by the opposition. Whether or not this is a civil war between the religions in the region, this is rapidly becoming, as my right honourable friend has said, a civil war within Syria, and I am afraid that it is a matter of history that it is sometimes in civil wars that the worst atrocities of man against man and man against woman are exercised. That, I am afraid, is unfolding before our eyes. So it is correct that not all the blame is on one side. That it could become a gigantic Sunni and Shia war within Islam is a possibility; it is one of the concerns underlying our attempts to put out this monstrous consuming fire before it devours many other people in neighbouring regions.

As for the details of what arms are being passed, it is very hard to track down how many arms are going from Russia to Syria, and there was mention of Venezuela possibly supplying arms as well. Then there is what Iran is doing; we know that it is pouring arms in on the regime’s side. On the other side, there are arms going to the opposition. These are difficult things to pin down in a very confused situation.

[Lord Inglewood]

Do the Government believe that the militias that are carrying out these murderous activities are under the ostensible control of those under whose metaphorical banner they are marching?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

My right honourable friend made a comparison with the horrors in Bosnia at the end of the previous century, when militias claiming to be acting in the name of one side or another may or may not have been condoned or even have been instructed by the authorities. To answer my noble friend’s question, that comparison reflects on the assessment that we have to make of the present situation. It is hard to tell how much these murderous attacks—village against village, region against region—are, at the very lowest level, simply the settling of old scores or, at a higher level, people who are inspired by one side or another to think that they can put a label on themselves and go and murder everyone in sight. Perhaps, at the highest level of all, they are actively receiving orders and encouragement from the Syrian regime. Those are all possible, and there is evidence that at all levels there are those sorts of motivations. However, you cannot distinguish and draw lines in all these cases; you cannot say that all these horrors and the revolting, outrageous and evil killing of children are ordered from the centre. If they were, that would reinforce everything that we fear about the nature of the regime, but I do not think that that is the case in every instance; there are probably other evil motives at work as well.

[Lord Anderson of Swansea]

My Lords, at a time of the cooling of the right to protect and humanitarian intervention, I was puzzled by one word in the Statement. It was the word “compelling” in this passage:

“we will argue for a new and robust UN Security Council resolution aimed at compelling the regime”.

Given the Russian and Chinese position, surely there is no prospect of such a resolution. If these are not just empty words, that could mean only military intervention outside the UN framework, which is most unlikely to happen. Who would lead that? There was talk this morning about drones targeting or showing the way for the targeting of opposition areas. Do the Government know who provides and controls these drones?

Amid all the horror, there is increasing concern about the way in which a likely Sunni-dominated successor regime would deal with minorities. Do the Government share this concern, especially with regard to, as the right reverend Prelate has mentioned, the Christian minority within Syria and the many refugees from Iraq who are there? If so, what are the Government doing to ensure that as far as possible there will not be a regime that persecutes minorities, as other Sunni-led regimes in the area do?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

On the last point, I addressed that very point when it was raised by the right reverend Prelate. The position of the Christian minorities is of great concern. To answer the question about what the Government are doing, as I said earlier, my right honourable friend, officials and representatives of HMG have constantly urged the Syrian opposition to extend tolerance and a full place to ethnic and religious minorities, and that embraces Christian minorities. That is what we are doing.

As to the word “compelling”, the noble Lord is very skilled and active in these areas, but I think he is slightly misreading its meaning. I go back to my earlier point that with the full co-operation of the Russians and the Chinese—if we could get it, which at present does not look very promising, but great efforts are being made—there would be a compelling and effective stranglehold. It is possible to switch off a society and to close down a regime altogether and make further governance impossible by cutting off basic utilities, power and all ingoing and outgoing supplies, but that is impossible as long as these two great nations, Russia and China, and a few others, are carrying on with trade and supplying equipment and arms. It is not realistic to imagine that without Russia and China we would resort to arms. That is pointless. It is a dead end. Russian and Chinese co-operation are essential for the stranglehold to work, and that has got to be the path of compulsion that we go to before we come to even grimmer possibilities. However, as my right honourable friend repeated, all options are on the table. There are steps ahead that we can take and which we will take, and we will work night and day to hold dialogue with Moscow and Beijing because they have a vital role in this process.

I cannot comment on drones. I will not comment on intelligence aspects, but if I have any more knowledge, I will gladly write to the noble Lord; at the moment, I have none.

[Lord Ashdown of Norton-sub-Hamdon]

Following my noble friend’s answer, surely the difference between this and Bosnia is that in Bosnia we could act but chose not to, whereas in Syria we would like to act but cannot because we cannot get agreement from the Security Council. Surely the lessons that we should have learnt from Libya are that getting agreement from the Security Council and, above all, making sure that the Russians and the Chinese do not exercise their veto are far better served by letting the coalition of local voices lead the call for action and that we should concentrate on humanitarian action, not regime change. So why have we abandoned them? Why have we reverted to the prospect that the West leads the charge and is seeking the removal of the one person, the one friend, Russia has by seeking regime change up front? Has that not made it easier for the Russians and the Chinese to cast their veto? Is the consequence of that not that we now find ourselves in an impasse which is in part because of rather unwise diplomacy, which will not only lead to greater bloodshed in Syria but to the even more baleful prospect of a widening Sunni-Shia conflict throughout the whole of the Middle East?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I listened very closely to the noble Lord who has enormous expertise, certainly on the Bosnian scene, but I do not think we have abandoned the idea that the regional powers—the Arab League and Turkey and other responsible powers in the region—should be right up in the front and leading the pressure. This is not just a western story; this is a story where the global order is looking with horror at what is happening. Responsible nations are actively helping. We are arguing with Russia and China, which we hope will become fully responsible nations—they should act as responsible nations, as they are great powers—in the same vein and on the same path. That is what we are trying to do. I do not think there is another path of diplomacy that somehow would magically put certain regional powers in a forward position, and I do not think this is seen just as a western show. That was last century stuff; today, no one moves in international affairs, as my noble friend knows perfectly well, without full consultation with the African Union and the Arab League and increasingly with Beijing and Moscow, which play crucial parts, and with many other countries as well. This is not the century of the West; this is the century of Asia and Africa and the new international and multinational organisations which are reinforcing the ones we inherited from the 20th century. So I do not accept my noble friend’s analysis, but the wisdom behind his thought is correct.

NATO

Lord Howell of Guildford Excerpts

Tuesday 29th May 2012 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford)]

My Lords, let me begin by joining in the congratulations to the noble Lord, Lord Browne, on promoting this short debate and on his work with his colleagues in the so-called top-level group, which tackles these issues. The profundity of his questioning is a very good way of promoting the debate in a context that is not replicated anywhere else. The only sadness I have to note is that although much wisdom has been put into one hour’s debate, the media coverage is unlikely to be dramatic because they have a shallower and shorter range interest beyond these vital and profound issues. However, this is a valuable moment. I shall not, of course, be able to satisfy completely the aspirations of the noble Lord, Lord Browne, and his colleagues for the longer term, or those of the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, because that is not the posture that the deterrence and defence posture review took up. However, there are some very important questions, which are in a stage of evolution and development and which I would like to comment and respond on as clearly as I can.

We know that the review was agreed at the last NATO summit in November 2010. It was commissioned to examine the multiple and complex threats that the alliance faced in the 21st century—so it was a forward-looking intention—and to ensure that NATO’s range of capabilities are fully appropriate to the political and security context in which we live today, here and now, and in which we are likely to live in future. The review was agreed and published by alliance Heads of State at the Chicago summit last week. It is not too long, so for those who have not read it is not too time-consuming a read. It sets out the role that NATO’s defensive capabilities play in collective deterrence, burden sharing and reassurance.

The review concludes that NATO’s “existing mix” of nuclear and conventional capabilities is appropriate to meet the threats of today and tomorrow. In that sense, it can be asserted that it confirms and consolidates the status quo, but, as I shall try and show, it also has an evolutionary and ongoing element that is realistic in that we have to meet the here and now but think about tomorrow. It lays the ground for future work in NATO on its nuclear posture and on supporting non-proliferation, disarmament and arms control. The British Government were closely involved in the development and negotiation of the review, together with our 27 allies in NATO, so it is fairly obvious that I will not say anything but that we endorse the conclusions, approach and thrust of the review.

First, let me address the points that the noble Lord, Lord Browne, makes, with some tone of disappointment in his voice, about a perceived lack of progress in reducing NATO’s short-range nuclear weapons. It is worth noting that, since 1991, NATO has reduced the types and numbers of its short-range nuclear forces by over 8%. There is a strong long-term record on disarmament in the alliance, which cannot be completely brushed aside.

However, let me also make it clear why 28 allies have agreed in this review on the maintenance of NATO’s short-range nuclear forces. I will make four points on this. First, the presence of US nuclear forces based in Europe provides an essential political and military link between the European and North American members of the alliance. Secondly, the B-61 nuclear weapon forms an important element of those nuclear forces and the national US life-extension programme for the ageing bombers, which incidentally is paid for entirely by the United States, will ensure that it continues to be a safe, secure and credible nuclear deterrent without nuclear testing. That is an important benefit, or condition, of the LEP.

Thirdly, at the same time, the participation of non-nuclear countries demonstrates alliance solidarity, a commitment to maintaining collective security and the widespread sharing of burdens and risks. Most of your Lordships, and many outside, would agree that we need to encourage a burden of sharing as much as possible. Fourthly, as the review makes quite clear, future decisions must also take into account the far greater Russian stockpiles of short-range nuclear weapons stationed in the Euro-Atlantic area. It would not be right for NATO unilaterally to disarm, nor to disarm by, as it were, default—in other words, by not modernising the essential equipment. Future steps must be taken in the context of reciprocal steps by Russia. NATO as an alliance, and individual allies, will continue to work towards this common and worthwhile goal. I will say a little more about Russia in a moment, in the light of the comments of my noble friend Lord Jopling and others.

As the noble Lord, Lord Browne, noted, the review reiterates its long-standing principle that to face the ultimate threats to our collective defence, however remote the contemplation of nuclear weapons, NATO will remain a nuclear alliance for as long as nuclear weapons exist. It also reiterates that the alliance is resolved to create the conditions for a world without nuclear weapons. The alliance’s nuclear posture must evolve—this is the point that I made in my opening remarks—to meet current and anticipated threats and wider geopolitical developments, as it always has done and must continue to do.

In this context, it is worth noting that the review sets out what NATO can do to help create the conditions in which further reductions are possible, in line with our shared long-term goal of a world without nuclear weapons. While it is legitimate to say that the review stands on the status quo at the moment, it opens up the creation of the conditions in which further reductions are possible. That is important. It underlines the alliance’s role in supporting wider international arms control, disarmament and non-proliferation efforts, and announces the establishment of a new committee to focus the alliance’s contribution in this important work. In that sense, it is part of the evolving process, as it has been and must continue to be.

These efforts have been an inseparable part of NATO’s contribution to security and stability since the late 1960s. The review takes this further, not least in setting out for the first time in an alliance context the declaratory policies of its member states. Of course, my noble friend Lord King was absolutely right in his wise contribution that the US and Russia in particular, with their still enormous arsenals, must go considerably further.

The missile defence issue was mentioned by several of your Lordships. The noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries, mentioned it. He also raised a point about Georgia, which I just have time to comment on. NATO partners agreed in Bucharest in 2008 that Georgia will one day become a member of NATO. Georgia’s path to NATO is a matter for agreement between NATO and Georgia, and no other country has a veto on this. We welcome the progress that Georgia has been making, and point out that NATO’s ongoing enlargement process poses no threat to any country. It is aimed at promoting stability and co-operation, and building a Europe whole and free and united in peace, democracy and common values.

On missile defence, the alliance and the UK remain committed to a positive NATO-Russian relationship. Although this obviously has its challenges, good practical co-operation is in fact taking place on a range of mutual security issues, including Afghanistan, counter- terrorism and theatre missile defence. The review considered how co-operation, transparency and, I emphasise, reciprocity with Russia can help Euro-Atlantic security.

NATO will continue to develop its partnership with Russia. We are committed to continuing our dialogue on missile defence. The United States in particular has been clear with Russia that NATO missile defence is neither intended nor designed to undermine, nor is capable of undermining, the Russian strategic deterrent. The best way of allaying Russia’s concerns is for it to work with NATO through dialogue and practical co-operation in the context of the need for the defence of Europe as a whole. This sort of co-operation also requires a functioning conventional arms-control regime, in which Russia must play a full part in offering transparency and political will. It means reciprocity and confidence-building measures as we look to future reductions in short-range nuclear weapons.

In response to, and as a reinforcement of, the points made by my noble friend Lord Jopling, I should say that all sorts of reassurances have been offered to Russia. Those reassurances are not about the legal requirements that the ambassador is writing about in today’s newspaper—that is not possible for the obvious reason that it would never get through Congress in the United States—but are all sorts of other reassurances of a detailed kind, and we are now entitled to look for a response from Russia: that is, a commitment to joint defence, as my noble friend Lord Jopling put it. This is something that we should press for and try to create the atmosphere for by elucidation, illumination and constructive dialogue rather than by some of the more negative and rigid response that have emerged.

The threats that we must be ready to counter come from many different directions and in many different forms. The capabilities available to us have certainly broadened. The DDPR has presented a timely opportunity to reassess NATO’s defence and deterrence capabilities to ensure that they are able to respond to the modern, multipolar world. That means not only where they have come from and where we are now, which is the realistic moment that we live in, but the future as well.

Publishing the review at the NATO summit in Chicago demonstrated to the world the alliance’s commitment to the collective defence of all alliance members through a mix of nuclear, conventional and missile defence; to sharing the responsibilities and risks of delivering those capabilities; and to addressing new threats together. This outward-facing resolve and renewed demonstration of alliance solidarity remains critical to NATO’s effectiveness and unity, which has been one of the underlying drivers in the whole of this operation.

The Government fully share with your Lordships and a much wider audience a desire to make progress on nuclear disarmament and non-proliferation. However, in doing so we must be clear about the reality of the evolving security environment of the 21st century and the wider political context, both of which are full of dangers, some of which are outside the immediate security area but often have major potential security repercussions. NATO needs to provide strong defence and deterrence in challenging times, while being open to ways in which we can reduce both the risks and challenges that we face together as an alliance.

I thank noble Lords for their contributions to this debate and the noble Lord, Lord Browne, for raising some challenging questions. I hope that the challenges will continue. I have stated the Government’s view in response to these challenges, but it is an open-minded response that allows for continuing debate and examination as the uncertain future unfolds before us.

Syria

Lord Howell of Guildford Excerpts

Monday 28th May 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I beg leave to ask a Question of which I have given private notice.

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford)]

My Lords, we are outraged by the appalling events in Houla and have condemned these in the strongest possible terms. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs has made clear that we are working with international partners to make the Annan plan work. This aims to bring an end to the violence and drive forward a political process in Syria.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I share the outrage expressed by the Minister. The massacre was appalling and deplorable, and it is difficult to find words to express the revulsion at the slaughter of vast numbers of innocent people, including 49 children and 39 women. UN condemnation is welcome but it is not enough. What is the Government’s assessment of the potential changes in policy by the international community following the clear change of position by the Russians, both at the UN and in discussion with the Foreign Secretary?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

The noble Baroness is quite right that words are difficult and certainly condemnation alone is not enough. She speaks about the change in the Russian position. It is perfectly true that Russia has joined in condemnation of these revolting events—as all civilised and responsible nations must do—but the question goes beyond that, to whether the UN Security Council is prepared in a united way to take a variety of further actions, including referral to the ICC, tougher sanctions and other pressures. That requires the support of the Russians and the Chinese in the UN Security Council.

My right honourable friend is in Moscow and has had discussions this morning with Mr Lavrov, the Russian Foreign Minister. Various views have been set out by Mr Lavrov, and discussion continues internationally about exactly what happened and precisely who is to blame. But we are quite clear that the Annan plan, requiring an immediate laying-down of weapons on both sides and action by the Syrian Government to withdraw their heavy weapons and tanks from all the areas they have been bombarding, is an essential step to taking this forward. The key is to get agreement in the United Nations Security Council, and the key to that is what my right honourable friend is working on at this moment.

[Baroness Falkner of Margravine]

My Lords, can my noble friend tell the House whether there is any discussion within the Security Council, and indeed with the Syrian Government, to increase the number of UN monitors from 300 to potentially significant figures so that they may be able to carry out their tasks effectively?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

Yes. My right honourable friend spoke to Kofi Annan over the weekend and they discussed increasing the size of the monitoring mission. It is just about coming up to its initially agreed 300 but there is certainly further discussion of whether a more effective and larger commission could be developed.

[Lord Wright of Richmond]

My Lords, I do not know whether the Minister has seen an interesting article by Patrick Seale in today’s Guardian. First, can the Minister give the House the Government’s assessment of the amount of financial and other assistance being given by the Gulf countries and other members of the Friends of Syria to the rebels or terrorists—call them what you like—with the aim of bringing down the Syrian Government?

Secondly, can the Minister please give the House an assurance that any assistance that the British Government are giving, and have been giving, to any faction in Syria is being given exclusively through the United Nations and international organisations?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I have indeed seen the article by Patrick Seale that the noble Lord mentions. It is very difficult to answer precisely because we do not know the amount or nature of the assistance that countries such as Saudi Arabia and Qatar are giving to the rebels. There is also the question of the suitability of the recipients. Are they people who will continue to protect human life, or will they promote further terrorism and destruction? There are real doubts on this matter, as the noble Lord will well know with his expertise in the area. Non-lethal assistance is being given to civilians and the Syrian rebel forces on humanitarian grounds at the moment. It is going ahead through non-governmental international organisations and the agencies of the United Nations.

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern]

My Lords, the situation in Syria is certainly very complicated. I read recently an account of very harsh treatment being meted out to Christian communities in Syria by forces other than government ones, whether you call them rebels or terrorists—I am not certain. Can my noble friend say whether these reports are true?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

Again, I have to tell my noble and learned friend that it is very hard to come by precise records of exactly what is happening, who is committing these atrocities and to what extent they are intertribal activities by Alawite villagers against others. All these things are possible and they may well have happened. I cannot give a clear answer to my noble and learned friend except to say that there are many different cross-currents and many different groups who fear for their future whether Assad remains entrenched, rebel forces take over or the country descends into civil war. The future of groups such as the Christian communities is challenged by any of these eventualities; so, too, is the future stability of Lebanon.

[Lord Davies of Coity]

My Lords, Syria is likely to go into a civil war, as the Minister has said. We have been involved in the bombing of Libya and went to war in Afghanistan and Iraq. To what extent do the Government believe that we have helped the people of those countries by our involvement?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

The obvious answer is that each one is a completely separate and different situation on which one has to make a sensible judgment. The Government and I believe, as I think most people do, that the intervention in Libya to prevent hideous massacres—although we are now looking at another hideous massacre—was constructive and led to a new start for Libya which we hope will lead to democracy, liberty and freedom. I could stand at this Dispatch Box well beyond your Lordships’ patience and analyse the prospects of leaving Afghanistan in a better condition than it was when it promoted al-Qaeda and the horrors of 9/11. I could say the same about Iraq. It is now free of one of the worst killers of the Middle East but it had to pay a very heavy price. All these are separate issues and we have now to look at Syria to see what can be done. The willingness for the allies together—we have to act together as no single country can do this—to mobilise military might on a massive scale is obviously not there, not least because it is not clear exactly who the enemy are and where the sources of instability are coming from.

[Baroness Hussein-Ece]

My Lords, given that Turkey is on Syria’s doorstep, perhaps I may ask about the role that it has tried to play in the past year in bringing about a solution. What support is being given to Turkey to play a more prominent role and to prevent a potentially explosive situation whereby it could be dragged into a war with Syria?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

We are in close touch with the Turkish authorities, which face some difficult dilemmas. They are taking a lot of Syrian refugees over the border. There are fears that the violence could spread across the frontiers. There has been talk about the possibility of buffer zones on Syrian soil to prevent the situation getting worse. We are working closely with all our allies, and certainly with a great nation such as Turkey, to ensure that we act responsibly, effectively and, if possible, together.

[Lord Richard]

My Lords, to clarify the position, will the Minister say that the Government are satisfied, first, that a massacre took place; secondly, that the deaths that occurred in that massacre were of the order expressed in the press; and, thirdly, that those deaths were caused by Syrian government forces with the connivance or indeed at the orders of the Government in Damascus?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

Frankly, the word “satisfied” is difficult to put into this context; it is very difficult to be satisfied precisely. General Robert Mood, the head of the UN mission, has said that the situation and the circumstances are still unclear. What is almost certain, and what we are ready to accept, is that horrific killings took place. There is clear and incontrovertible evidence that dreadful things were done. Children were slaughtered, perhaps by bombing and artillery fire but also by shots in the head, throat-cutting and other horrors. One has to analyse who on this planet can be so uncivilised and evil in intent to do these terrible things. We cannot yet be satisfied that the situation is clear; if I said that we were, I would not be believed.

Iran: Capital Punishment

Lord Howell of Guildford Excerpts

Thursday 24th May 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Roberts of Llandudno]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what representations they have made to the Government of Iran regarding the use of capital punishment against homosexual men.

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford)]

My Lords, we have been extremely clear about the human rights situation in Iran and about Iran’s excessive and cruel use of the death penalty. We deplore Iran’s persecution of, and use of the death penalty against, homosexuals. This, like many other practices in Iran, is inconsistent not only with international obligations but with common humanity. The United Kingdom has been and will remain at the forefront of international efforts through the European Union and the United Nations to encourage an improvement in Iran’s very poor human rights record.

[Lord Roberts of Llandudno]

I am grateful to the Minister for that reply. What has been the response in Iran to all the objections that we have made over the years to these thousands of executions? Is Iran ready to consider complying with the United Nations declaration of human rights? Also, what co-operation do we have with Amnesty International in these moves?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

We certainly have co-operation with all the major NGOs and international movements, which are equally concerned at the horrors in Iran. It is very hard to answer my noble friend’s first question as to what impact these comments and pressures have. My personal belief is that they do have some impact. After all, we have to remember that when the elaborate EU sanctions were discussed and formulated—they are now having, apparently, some impact on Iran—there were discussions about Iran’s human rights record and the horrific rate of persecutions and executions in that country. As far as we know, this includes over 600 people executed last year and 130 executed so far this year—indeed, 60 in the last week.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool]

My Lords, when did Her Majesty’s Government last raise the issue of human rights with Iran? When they were in full diplomatic relations with Iran, did they discuss the execution of people for their sexual orientation, of others, such as the Baha’is and Christians, for changing their religion, and of women, who are regularly publicly executed for so-called social offences? Is this not something that we should at least be making a démarche about and certainly trying to draw the international community into full unison, not just on the security questions, which we regularly raise, but on these profoundly important human rights issue too?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

The answer to the first part of the noble Lord’s question is almost continuously. However, we are constrained by the fact that our diplomatic relations with Iran are now at a very low level. As he knows, there are no ambassadors between the two countries because our embassy was attacked and had to be evacuated. So far we have not got any agreement from Tehran to our request for a protecting power to look after our interests and maintain contacts. However, that does not stop us almost continuously working with the UN special rapporteur to keep this kind of horror on the UN agenda and to keep up the international pressure in every way that we can.

[Lord Triesman]

My Lords, I recognise that it is difficult to exert direct pressure on and have a conversation with a country with which we no longer have, for understandable reasons, diplomatic relations. I welcome the Minister’s mention of the European Union sanctions. I wonder whether, in any of the discussions, the list of things being provided by the European Union to the Iranians, alongside all the issues about the development of their nuclear capability, has been included and whether there has been any response from the Iranian Government on those items. If there has not been, would it be a moment to perhaps urge the European Union to make the discussion more comprehensive?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

The discussions with Iran are going on continuously at this moment in Baghdad. They have not yet stopped; they were due to do so yesterday but the Iranian team, as I understand it, is still in Baghdad this morning. Those discussions are, of course, focused on Iran’s nuclear programme and its weaponisation ambitions, but behind them is the obvious point that the EU sanctions—and particularly the oil embargo—clearly concern the Iranians. They keep raising the issue, which is a good sign that they are worried. As to the other items to which the noble Lord referred, these will come in at the right opportunity. I cannot assure him at the moment on everything that he referred to—I am not sure whether his full list is included—but he can be sure that, within the present climate of trying to get Tehran to make some sensible concessions and to comply with the IAEA, these issues will all come up.

[Lord Cormack]

The figure for the executions that my noble friend gave the House is positively horrific. When did we last initiate a United Nations resolution on this subject? Could we perhaps initiate another one very soon?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

There have been successive UN resolutions. We are limited by the fact that not every member of the UN Security Council is agreed on how far we should go in these affairs. I cannot answer my noble friend precisely on when the last resolution came through—I do not have it in front of me—but I shall certainly write to him giving the details that he wants.

[Baroness Brinton]

My Lords, following the welcome judgment by the UK Supreme Court in 2010 that overturned the previous Government’s refusal to grant asylum to homosexuals from Iran, what are the UK Government doing to work with other Governments, such as that of Australia, who bizarrely still believe that it is acceptable to argue that it is possible to hide one’s sexuality?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

Our position is quite clear. As my noble friend is aware, we regard all these abuses and attitudes as offensive against human rights and we would like to see them changed. We are working both bilaterally and at the United Nations on all these issues and I assure my noble friend that every opportunity is taken to make known our views and to press them on the countries concerned.

[Lord Faulkner of Worcester]

My Lords, following on from the question asked by the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, is the Minister aware that there is a Private Member’s Bill before the Parliament in Uganda to introduce the death penalty for homosexual acts? Is he further aware that at the recent IPU Assembly in Kampala, the British delegation, of which I was privileged to be a member, had a difficult but none the less very hard-hitting meeting with the Speaker of the Ugandan Parliament, making clear how unacceptable we regard this proposal? Now that we have come home, we hope that our high commission is continuing with those representations.

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

Yes, I am aware. We have made it quite clear that we deplore this proposal in Uganda, as indeed we deplore attitudes taken in other African countries, including Nigeria. The answer to the noble Lord’s question is yes.

International Criminal Court

Lord Howell of Guildford Excerpts

Thursday 24th May 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Alton of Liverpool]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what progress has been made in securing the arrest of Joseph Kony, Omar al-Bashir and others indicted by the International Criminal Court for crimes against humanity.

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford)]

My Lords, the International Criminal Court relies entirely on state co-operation to ensure enforcement of its arrest warrants. The British Government, together with our EU partners, frequently raise the importance of states fulfilling their international obligations and taking the necessary steps to bring to justice individuals indicted by the court. Those currently fugitive from ICC warrants should be reminded that they, like Radovan Karadzic and General Mladic, cannot evade the international justice system indefinitely.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool]

My Lords, given that Kony was indicted in 2005, and that Omar al-Bashir, who was indicted in 2009 for crimes against humanity in Darfur, is now waging a new war against his own people in Southern Kordofan, does not a failure to bring those indicted to account risk compromising the ICC and bringing it into disrepute? What resources are we committing to the work of the ICC? When a head of state is indicted by it, how is that reflected in the conduct of our economic and diplomatic policies? Either this is genocide or it is not. Either it is crimes against humanity or it is not. Either they are indicted or they are not. Either it is business as usual or it is not.

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

It certainly is not business as usual. The noble Lord, who follows these things very closely, is perhaps not taking into account the fact that this system has taken some years to get going. The indictments are out but there are real problems in pinning these people down. He mentioned two cases. We know that Mr Joseph Kony is highly elusive and can slip across borders. At least the Government of Uganda were very successful the other day in capturing his deputy, Caesar Acellam. Uganda is a signatory to the ICC and I am sure that it will fulfil its obligations in accordance with international justice.

As for the leader of Sudan, we know exactly what the position is. We and our EU colleagues seek to keep contact with Khartoum because all the parties—South Sudan, Sudan itself, the opposition parties and, indeed, the Opposition—believe that we should do so. However, the problem of fulfilling an ICC charge against Mr Omar al-Bashir is obviously a practical, physical one in that he is not in reach unless he were to leave the country.

[Lord Chidgey]

My noble friend will be aware that since April, when Bosco Ntaganda’s rebel troops defected, they have managed forcibly to recruit more than 150 child soldiers and caused 40,000 villagers to flee, thereby causing more chaos in that region. The United Nations Security Council is absolutely clear about MONUSCO’s mandate for its mission in the Congo: it has the authority to assist the Government to arrest indicted war criminals. MONUSCO officials on the ground say that they have not been asked to do anything and are not involved, yet ICC officials have asked the Government to pursue the matter. However, nothing has happened. Overall, this is a case of prevarication.

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

It is very difficult to ascertain exactly what is happening on the ground. No one could expect there to be full information, full access or full details. However, we fully support the work of the ICC in bringing Bosco Ntaganda to justice and bringing additional charges against him. I think the implication of my noble friend’s question and the preceding one is that somehow the ICC should have further powers over and above the existing situation in which national Governments have to seek to co-operate and take the initial action. That, of course, would raise fundamental questions about the workings of the ICC and whether we should go back to square one and revise the legislation. I do not believe that we should; I think that we should give the present process more scope and more encouragement. However, I understand what is behind my noble friend’s question.

[Baroness Kinnock of Holyhead]

My Lords, given that crimes against humanity are defined by the United Nations as,

“a widespread attack on a civilian population”,

does the Minister not agree that Robert Mugabe should be investigated by the prosecutor and subsequently indicted by the ICC? Is it not tragically clear that there is evidence of his responsibility for the Matabeleland massacres in the 1980s that were committed by his army brigade, continued state-sponsored violence against political opponents, and ongoing atrocities in the diamond fields in Zimbabwe? What pressure is Her Majesty’s Government using to ensure that this wicked man faces international criminal justice?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I do not dispute anything that the noble Baroness has said, with her acute understanding of the situation there. However, the realities are these: Zimbabwe is not a party to the Rome statute and to get an ICC charge against Mr Mugabe would require a UN Security Council resolution. That means getting past all five of the permanent members. We know what the view of some of the permanent members is: they should not take such action. Until we can get past this problem of the permanent five, and particularly the reluctance of China and Russia, to name two, to see these matters taken up by the UN and remitted to the ICC for charges, these people who have committed most unsavoury acts—the noble Baroness mentioned Mr Mugabe as one—are outside the reach of the ICC.

[Baroness Cox]

My Lords, is the Minister aware that not only is President al-Bashir indicted by the ICC but he actually deposed the elected governor of Southern Kordofan, replacing him with Ahmad Harun, who is also indicted by the ICC and has since been carrying out systematic slaughter and aerial bombardment of his people, leading to the displacement of hundreds of thousands of people? What reassurance can Her Majesty’s Government give to the victims of those policies? I have spoken to people in the refugee camps and—I am afraid this sounds harsh—many have said to me, “Why does Britain not intervene? Our suffering is far worse than that of Libya. Does Britain really only do business with Khartoum and those indicted by the ICC?”. That is the feeling among many people in Sudan.

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

With respect to the noble Baroness, that is unfair because she knows better than most of us that the real problem is access. We cannot get access to these very ugly and difficult areas to establish what is happening. She quite rightly mentions that the governor of Southern Kordofan and one other are already indicted by the ICC and need to face justice. The UN has ruled through the Security Council that they should be referred to the ICC, which has issued warrants against them. The question is: how can they be secured and brought to justice in The Hague? That remains a continuous battle. As for the general proposition that we speak only to Khartoum or Djuba, that is not to understand the enormous amount of work we are doing at every level with the international agencies to bring some hope to this very unpleasant and ugly situation.

European Union (Approval of Treaty Amendment Decision) Bill [HL]

Lord Howell of Guildford Excerpts

Wednesday 23rd May 2012 Lords Chamber

Moved By

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

That the Bill be read a second time.

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford)]

My Lords, in bringing this Bill before the House, I am very much aware that I do so at a time when the spotlight is on the eurozone. As the Prime Minister said last week, it is vital for Britain’s interests that the eurozone resolves its problems. I do not underestimate those problems. On Monday, a number of noble Lords gave their very expert views on the broader issues during the debate on the report of the European Union Committee on the euro area crisis. It was a very interesting debate.

However, this Bill is simple and straightforward. It provides solely for the parliamentary approval of an amendment to the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. The proposed amendment makes explicit the ability of eurozone countries to set up a financial assistance mechanism. In other words, it confirms that the eurozone can support fellow eurozone members in financial difficulty.

Although the United Kingdom is not in the eurozone, the treaty amendment is nevertheless important to us. The eurozone is in the process of setting up the European stability mechanism—or ESM. I apologise for these endless initials. The ESM will play an important role as eurozone countries work towards stability, which obviously we hope they will do. Eurozone stability is important for our own stability. When the Prime Minister agreed to the treaty amendment, he also secured an important commitment. The UK will not be liable through the European Union budget for any future eurozone bailouts once the European stability mechanism comes into force. In effect, that is another way of saying that the European financial stability mechanism will be closed down and there will be no further disbursements from that source.

[Baroness Quin]

The Minister has stressed, as have other Ministers, that we are not liable to contribute to any future bailouts. Will he none the less confirm that if we judge that it is in our economic interest to do so, as we did in the case of Ireland for example, bilateral help can be available?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

There is complete freedom outside the treaties to take any decisions we want. I will come in more detail to what I have just said in reference to the EFSM, and during the afternoon we can discuss what other mechanisms of support for economies, whether in Europe or the eurozone or not, are justified, but that is the position in relation to what we are discussing today.

It is not the first time that this treaty amendment has been considered by Parliament. Before the Prime Minister signed the treaty last March, a Motion in favour of signature was passed by both Houses, with no opposition in your Lordships’ House. At the time I committed to bringing the decision before Parliament again. Thus we are applying the more rigorous requirements for parliamentary control over European Union decision-making, as we committed to do in the European Union Act 2011. Parliamentary approval will enable the UK to complete its ratification process for this treaty amendment.

I recognise that 14 months is a long time in eurozone terms, so it may help your Lordships if I recap how the European Council came to decide to amend the treaty. In May 2010, in response to the first Greek crisis, two emergency instruments were established to respond to the financial crises. The first is the European financial stability facility. This is an emergency facility established intergovernmentally by euro area member states. It is used to provide loans to euro area member states in difficulty. The UK is not—I repeat, not—a member of the EFSF and has no exposure to the financial assistance provided by it.

The second is the European financial stabilisation mechanism, which I have already mentioned, which we inherited from the previous Government. Under this mechanism, the Council can agree, by qualified majority, to the Commission providing assistance using money raised on the financial markets, backed by the European Union budget. It therefore created a contingent liability for the United Kingdom, which is a very important point.

As uncertainty continued in financial markets, the European Council agreed in December 2010 to amend Article 136 of the Treaty of the Functioning of the European Union. The amendment confirms that member states of the eurozone may establish a permanent stability mechanism. This mechanism—the European stability mechanism, or ESM—which I have already mentioned, will provide a permanent means for dealing with events that pose a risk to the financial stability of the euro area as a whole.

Having gained Parliament’s approval in March 2011, the Prime Minister returned to Brussels to agree to the decision at the European Council. The decision must now be ratified by all 27 members before the amendment to Article 136 can come into force. The target date for entry into force, as set out in the European Council decision, is 1 January 2013.

As I have already mentioned, the Minister for Europe and I committed to further consideration of the decision under the terms of the EU Act 2011 when it came into force. Under the provisions of Section 5 of the Act, the Foreign Secretary laid a Statement before Parliament in October 2011. He indicated that in his opinion a referendum is not required to give parliamentary approval. The proposed amendment to Article 136 applies only to member states whose currency is the euro. Consequently it does not transfer further competence or power to the European Union from the United Kingdom. The statement was open to judicial review, but in the intervening eight months no one has sought to challenge it in the courts.

To comply fully with the requirements of the EU Act, I am now presenting this Bill to the House. Should Parliament grant its approval, the Government intend to ratify the European Council decision by the end of this year.

Now I turn briefly to the European stability mechanism itself. The ESM is a stability mechanism funded by eurozone countries to provide financial assistance to eurozone countries. The intention is that it will replace both the EFSM and EFSF. It is being set up under an intergovernmental treaty that was signed on 2 February by eurozone member states. It must now be ratified by all 17 member states and is expected to come into force in July 2012.

The treaty amendment does not establish the ESM. The UK, of course, will not ratify the ESM as we have not signed up to the intergovernmental agreement, and the amendment certainly does not commit the UK to contribute to any bailout fund. However, let me make it clear what the decision does. The treaty amendment that we are asking Parliament to approve will put beyond doubt the ability of eurozone countries to set up a financial assistance mechanism. It does this by adding a third paragraph to Article 136, which states that eurozone member states may establish a financial stability mechanism to assist other eurozone member states in financial difficulties. Article 136 applies solely to member states whose currency is the euro. Therefore, the provisions of Article 136 do not apply to the UK.

Alongside the agreement to enshrine the legal basis for the mechanism in the EU treaty, the Prime Minister secured an important agreement. Once the ESM is established, Article 122(2), on which basis the EFSM was established, should no longer be used for such purposes. Our liability for future euro area financial assistance programmes under the EU budget will be removed. This is strongly in the UK’s national interest.

The intensification of the crisis has led eurozone member states to agree to bring forward the introduction of the ESM to July 2012. When they announced this decision in January, we carefully considered the implications that it would have on our handling of the treaty amendment. Would it need to be ratified sooner, and was it still needed at all? We decided to proceed as planned, as it has always been the Government’s opinion that without the agreement to amend the treaty there would be no European stability mechanism. The clear message from eurozone member states is that they still need this treaty amendment.

That brings me back to the central point of why this Bill is important.

[Lord Davies of Stamford]

I am most grateful to the Minister for giving way. He said that it was the intention that the ESM should now enter into force next month. Indeed, we support the urgency of that, as I understand it. Therefore, why are we taking so long to ratify this? If we really support the initiative and recognise its urgency, why cannot we ratify it as soon as Parliament has approved this Bill?

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, I do not think that it has been the usual practice of this House to interrupt Ministers in the middle of their opening speeches, when they are also winding up and when the interrupter has his chance to take part in the debate afterwards. These are questions that the Minister can answer in his wind-up speech.

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

As I have sought to explain, the ESM treaty is an intergovernmental affair between eurozone members, and they are going ahead with it—and they want to go ahead with it—in July. Nevertheless, the individual eurozone members have said that they would want the comfort of cover via an amendment to the European Union treaties, and we are pressing ahead with that as best we can in our own time. The two things are not ultimately dependent; it is just that the changes that we are proposing give comfort, support, reassurance and legal reassurance to the eurozone members so that they can go ahead. Therefore, those who say, “You are not doing anything to play your part in contributing to orderly developments in the eurozone”, are wrong. We are playing our part in doing so, although there are considerable benefits for the UK in making this move, which I have already outlined.

This brings me back to why this Bill is important. It represents Parliament giving a simple yes or no to amending part of the TFEU that does not actually apply to the UK at all. However, as I have made clear, by giving approval to this decision the UK avoids liability for future eurozone bailouts under the EU budget and gives the eurozone the legal clarity—this may reinforce the point I have just made—that it wants to back the European stability mechanism. We also uphold the commitment made by both the Prime Minister and the Chancellor to help the eurozone to get itself out of a crisis. Whichever way the situation goes, that must be to the advantage of us all.

If we were to refuse to agree the decision, the impact on our trading partners in the eurozone would not be positive, to put it mildly. We are under no illusion that the ESM alone will resolve the eurozone crisis, but, as the Prime Minister said last week, an effective firewall is part of the solution. It is safe to assume that markets would not view favourably any uncertainty about the eurozone’s ability to establish a permanent support mechanism. That is just what would arise if we failed to ratify this decision.

As the Prime Minister, my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary and the Chancellor have repeatedly made clear, a stable Europe is directly in the UK’s interests. That must be so. We rely on the eurozone states for over 40% of our trade. London is Europe’s international financial centre. Stable progress in the eurozone states is vital to stable progress in the United Kingdom.

Therefore, agreeing to this treaty amendment is in our best interests. As I have said, it means that the UK will not be exposed to any future programmes of financial assistance for the eurozone through the EU budget, specifically the European financial stability mechanism—that will be closed—and it helps our neighbours in the eurozone in their search for financial stability in the currency area. Your Lordships have already agreed that the Prime Minister could sign this treaty amendment, as he has done. I hope that we can now take the necessary steps to allow us to ratify it. I beg to move.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Stoddart of Swindon]

My Lords, the House is indeed fortunate to have present in this debate two former Chancellors of the Exchequer, who were able to impart their considerable experience over a wide area of matters, particularly in regard to the setting up of the eurozone. I am grateful to them for their speeches today.

Why are we hurrying this Bill? Why are we introducing it just a couple of weeks after the Queen’s Speech? There is no rush for it. Unless I am mistaken, the Irish are to have a referendum on the matter at the end of this month. The Germans will not ratify this policy until the autumn. I even noticed in today’s Financial Times that Geert Wilders has applied for an injunction to block ratification until after the September elections.

I heard the statement made by the noble Lord, Lord Howell, and others that a,

“healthy eurozone is important for the UK’s long-term growth”.

I put in there that that does not hold water, but that clearly was not robust enough because the noble Lord, Lord Lawson, described it, in much more stark terms, as “nonsense”. I think that that is a better description of it.

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

The issue of whether I was talking nonsense or not seems to have rattled through the debate. I think that we will all listen with fascination to the noble Lord’s speech, just as we listened to the excellent speech of my noble friend Lord Lawson. However, there was an error in that perhaps they did not hear my actual speech. I made it absolutely clear that stable progress in the eurozone states is vital to stable progress in the United Kingdom. That is not quite what the noble Lord seems to be accusing me of saying.

[Lord Stoddart of Swindon]

It was not an accusation because I thought that I was quoting him. I am most obliged to the Minister for clarifying what he did say. I really do not like getting across the noble Lord, Lord Howell, because I respect him very much and think that he is perhaps the only statesman that the Government have among their ranks.

[Lord Lawson of Blaby]

For the sake of clarification, I was not quoting what my noble friend said in his opening remarks, which were rather more careful. What I explicitly quoted is what appeared under his name on the Foreign Office website, and I quoted that correctly.

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I appreciate that he was relying on a press release, but I had hoped that, as he is sitting here, he might also have listened to my speech.

[Lord Stoddart of Swindon]

Now that we have that out of the way, perhaps I can get on with my speech. There is no doubt, as other noble Lords have said, that the eurozone was a political construct, not a financial one, to create a single European state. Because it was made up of nations with diverse economies, it was bound to fail, as it now has. The noble Lord, Lord Radice, accused those of us who gave pause when the project was starting up of gloating because it has now patently failed. I do not gloat, and I do not think that others who warned of the consequences do so because the eurozone is now in difficulties. We believed that it was always going to be in difficulties; and for trying to point that out, we were derided and insulted. Indeed, the former Prime Minister, Mr Blair, said that we were unpatriotic. There is no gloating about this. We are extremely sad that the present situation has arisen.

As I understand it, the Bill allows the eurozone to further integrate and consolidate a failed system by attempting to shore it up through fiscal, economic and political union under central control by the large countries. I believe that the claim that the ESM cannot and never will apply to the United Kingdom is spurious and quite untenable. Article 16 expresses the aim that within the five years the treaty will be incorporated into the EU treaty framework, which presumably will include this country. Furthermore, we have heard all this before. Let us remember the famous Blair “red lines” over the EU constitution. All of them were eventually crossed and incorporated into the Lisbon treaty. We have to be careful when we are given assurances that certain things will not apply to this country.

I really must comment on the behaviour of the Prime Minister. He does not inspire confidence that the United Kingdom will not be sucked into this system. He seems to be suffering from EU schizophrenia. On the one hand, he opposed the setting up of the eurozone and has said that the UK will never join it; but on the other hand, he wants to dictate policy from the outside and has threatened the Greeks that if they do not vote in the right way, they will be thrown out of the euro. No wonder he is seen by the eurozone countries as a bully-boy shouting from the sidelines. He claims to be a Eurosceptic, yet demands more power for the centre.

I would like the Prime Minister to understand that the influential and decisive voices of the EU—for example, Mr Jose Manuel Barroso; Mr Herman Van Rompuy; Mr Wolfgang Schaeuble, the German Finance Minister; and Mr Olli Rehn, Commissioner for Economic and Monetary Affairs—and the shadowy group of Foreign Ministers and many others are calling for complete political integration under a European Government and the destruction or the sidelining of the nation states.

Why is the Prime Minister not shouting that very famous, “No, no, no”? Perhaps he is afraid of being stabbed in the back by the Deputy Prime Minister. The Prime Minister says that we will never join, but I remind him that others want the whole system to be extended into a single European state. This Bill will help those who wish to create a country called Europe, in spite of some voices this afternoon and in other debates who do not wish to see that happen.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

My Lords, I congratulate your Lordships on the sweep of your comments and magnificence of oratory in addressing this very modest Bill. I have listened with something verging on pleasure to the expositions of the noble Lord, Lord Liddle. They were very eloquent, but whether they related precisely to the policy of Her Majesty’s Opposition I am not so clear, and whether they related much to the Bill I am not so clear about either. But it was good stuff and I thank the noble Lord for his contribution.

I want to emphasise that many of the issues have given us a marvellous opportunity to air in your Lordships’ House the bigger issues surrounding the whole story of the eurozone and how it fits into the European Union, as well as how the European Union is or is not evolving to meet the challenges of the 21st century. I am not going to take the centre stage about Europe, much as I would love to do so, but will merely concentrate on aspects of the Bill.

There is no illusion about this Bill and we do not see it as magic medicine. We simply believe that it will help to bring order rather than disorder whichever way things go, and who can tell? Experts say they know the answer. We have been told by my noble friend Lord Lamont that it has all been priced into the market, which is wonderful if that is the case, but sometimes the market can get things terribly wrong. We believe that the Bill can make a net contribution, perhaps quite a substantial one, to the pattern of order rather than disorder. I put it no higher than that and make no greater claims for it.

Perhaps I may remind noble Lords of why we have a Bill before us at all. It is because of the increased public and parliamentary control over EU treaty changes that we committed to in the coalition agreement—it was the coalition that put that forward—and delivered through the European Union Act 2011. Therefore, this treaty amendment requires primary legislation. The amendment has already been considered and was debated by Parliament and passed by both Houses last March; there was no opposition in the House at that time. The arguments for the treaty amendment were relevant then and, in a sense, as the bigger crisis has grown and the uncertainties confronting us have magnified, the case for making a move of this kind as a contribution to trying to steady the situation and stabilise an unstable pattern is stronger than it was even when we debated it 14 months ago.

As I explained at the beginning, in return for agreeing to the treaty amendment the Prime Minister secured that once the ESM is established, Article 122(2), on which basis the EFSM was established, should no longer be used for such purposes. Therefore, our liability for future euro area financial assistance programmes under the EU budget will be removed, and that is directly in our interest.

My noble friend Lord Lamont asked just how solid this Article 122(2) decision is. He is right that it is a political decision and not a treaty agreement, but the decision itself, under Recital 4, says very clearly that Article 122(2) should not be used. That was a unanimous decision of all 27 members of the European Union and it would require a unanimous decision to undo it. My noble friend Lord Lamont can still say that is not as good as the absolute of being locked into a treaty, but it is almost impossible to imagine how we would proceed with undoing a unanimous decision, which very clearly has been made in very good faith and is underpinned by the unanimity rule of the European Union. I hope that reassures him. It probably will not reassure him completely, but that is a very firm and clear position.

Secondly, as the European crisis has gone from bad to worse, this is plainly having a chilling effect on the economy. I do not quite see how anyone can avoid that obvious fact. As the Prime Minister, the Foreign Secretary and the Chancellor have repeatedly made clear, stability in the eurozone states—and I choose my words carefully—is directly in the UK’s interest. If there was growth in the European economies rather than the stagnation and indeed the shrinkage that are now being predicted, that would be one of the keys to growth in the UK economy.

We rely on the eurozone countries for a very large part of our trade—40% is the estimate; it is more for the total of the European Union—and it is only part of the picture. Restored, confident stability in the eurozone states is directly in our national interest, and the resolution of the eurozone debt crisis would be a major boost to confidence in the British economy. I do not know whether it is priced into the market; some people say that it is beginning to be so.

Those are my broad comments. I have not gone nearly as far as some of your Lordships in discussing the whole history of the scene, and there have been some fascinating speeches from my noble friend Lord Dobbs and many others about the past, but those are the immediate considerations that we are looking at with this two-clause Bill.

I will now turn to some of the points made. If I do not refer to every speech, it is not because I do not think that some of the speeches were quite brilliant but because they perhaps did not raise precise questions but merely added their wisdom to the general debate.

The noble Lord, Lord Radice, began by saying that we should not stand aloof. I do not think that we are standing aloof. This Article 136 change alone is proof that we are not standing aloof and that we are providing not just comfort but a sound legal base for eurozone countries to go ahead with the ESM. Eurozone countries believe, although others would dispute it, that the ESM is one of the building blocks of the essential firewall to hold the eurozone together; or, as some speculate, if one country was breaking away, the ESM would hold it together even more firmly against further contagion.

I therefore do not think that the suggestion of aloofness stands, combined as it is with the more general view asserted by several of your Lordships that we are disengaged from our role in the European Union region. That is not true. My right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary and indeed the whole Government have argued, rightly, that the great growth is increasingly going to come in Asia, Africa and the emerging markets. We must therefore pay attention to those, but not to the exclusion of the fact that we live in a very vital and potentially dynamic area full of creativity and attractions, and that we must somehow see its revival.

I have before me a list here of some of the growth initiatives that the UK Government are currently pressing. For all I know, these things may be discussed around the dinner table at the informal European Council meeting tonight. We have pressed very hard on the completion of the digital single market, which we think would see a 4% increase in the EU GDP over a 10-year period, and want to see it completed. We want to see full implementation of the services directive, which could add a further 1.8% to GDP. We are pressing for the completion of all open bilateral EU trade deals, which would add another €60 billion to the EU economy. A deal with the US, if we can bring it off, would be bigger than any other free trade agreement. We want the Commission to commit itself to a much more vigorous, new programme to reduce the overall regulatory burden. Those are just some of the growth points we are pushing and I think we will make some progress on all of them. To talk in terms of aloofness is not to represent the situation as it truly is.

My noble friend Lady Falkner rightly said that the Greek default is not easy—people talk about the possibilities of Greek default perhaps a little cavalierly, without being entirely clear whether we are talking about a nation going gently downstream through some mild rapids or being pushed over Niagara Falls. It might be either, and one has to be realistically responsible in analysing that and understanding that possibility.

I have already mentioned my noble friend Lord Lamont in relation to Article 122 and pricing in the markets. He asked me a series of very important questions about the ESM, which I am not deliberately ducking. I have here some very elaborate notes answering those questions on the ESM treaty, but we are not talking about that tonight. That is an intergovernmental treaty between the eurozone countries. We are talking about the treaty change that we are undertaking in Article 136. I hope that he will forgive me, and that other noble Lords will understand, if I do not read out all the details about AAA securities and other aspects of the ESM treaty. I will write to him in so far as I can answer them, but they are matters for the eurozone and not for this Bill.

The noble Lord, Lord Giddens, whose speeches I always enjoy, came again to this familiar theme that somehow Britain is marginal. I must say that I find this whole concept of being marginal to the problems of the eurozone yesterday’s argument and very dated. Many people now see this island, the United Kingdom —or these islands—as a safe haven, into which money, investment and wealth are pouring at a considerable rate. What does he mean by marginal? One could argue that a harbour that is reasonably well protected is marginal to the storm outside. It is not—it is merely the safe place to which people are going to come. Of course, he is right that if we are going to see the new fiscal pact lead to major political developments in the eurozone—and there is obvious dispute in this Chamber as to whether it will lead that way or to further fragmentation—then we are getting an evolving and new kind of Europe. I hope everyone will contribute to the debate on how that new kind of Europe should be best organised to meet the challenges of the 21st century. That is what I would say to the marginalists who keep on about isolation and so on. I do not think that is a realistic view of the situation.

The noble Lord, Lord Lawson, and I had a good-natured hair-splitting about whether I was arguing one thing or another. I hope that I have made it clear that we are talking about the eurozone countries. The euro currency is another matter but he must concede, as I am sure that all your Lordships concede, that in the states that happen to be European states—including our great neighbours France and Germany—what happens to them and their economies clearly affects our country in a very big way. I do not think that that can be questioned.

My noble friend Lord Flight asked about the EFSM and whether it is cash. It is €48 billion of loans to Portugal and Ireland, at the moment, and the intention is that they will be repaid. We would be liable for 14.6% of anything that was not repaid but that would balloon up to the sort of figure referred to in the document that he mentioned only if every single one of the countries, except us, defaulted. It is technically true that we would then be liable but that seems to be so unlikely as to be on the verge of absurdity. Exposure to the ECB is only for a capital contribution for its operating costs, which is €58 million—not billions but millions. By the standards of these huge sums we are talking about, that is a fairly limited sum. Because we are a non-eurozone member, our liability does not go beyond that.

I think that my noble friend spoke about the EIB, which is a bank where there have been no defaulted loans at all. It has €43 billion of our capital and we would be in danger of exposure to that only if the bank itself was in danger, which it clearly is not. He may or may not have spoken about the EU balance of payments facility, which has been raised. It may have been raised in the document we talked about, but it is only for non-euro members. The liability arises with members who are not members of the eurozone, so it does not really arise in this case.

The noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, then made a speech which did not surprise me. He is a valiant trooper and worker in his own seam and of his own view, which he has put over the years. I admire valiance and courage even when I do not agree with it. He asked why we were not having a referendum when the Irish were. Of course, the Irish are having a referendum not on Article 136 but on the fiscal compact, which is somewhat different.

My noble friend Lord Dobbs made an excellent speech which I thoroughly enjoyed. The noble Lord, Lord Davies of Stamford, began by saying that he was very happy, which alarmed me, but he soon got on to the unhappy part and seemed to be asking why we were not more part of this system. The implication was, “Why aren’t we in the eurozone?”. I do not think we need argue that out at the moment. We are very glad that we are not in the eurozone.

My noble friend Lord Dundee talked about co-ordination between the Council of Europe and the EU. His work on the Council of Europe has been marvellous and I see what he was getting at, but it does not directly arise from the actual Bill.

The noble Lord, Lord Hannay, is right that I was surprised and delighted—I think that is the phrase—that he gave support. I was all set to debate with him something he said the other night: that he did not understand the concept of network power. I will take him aside on another occasion and explain to him that this is a very important concept. I would like brilliant minds such as his to engage with it to realise how we handle the positions of this country in the future, which is not entirely by relying on the blocs and alliances of the 20th century but by moving on.

There were other excellent speeches, which I must be forgiven for not commenting on in detail, from my noble friend Lord Risby and from the noble Lords, Lord Anderson and Lord Reid. The noble Lord, Lord Reid, particularly echoed a fundamental view put so trenchantly by my noble friend Lord Lawson that this can never fly: that the eurozone is fundamentally flawed and will do nothing but bring more division and difficulty. That is a view but it is not the view of the Government, because we are not sure how things are going to work out. Anyone who claims that they are sure is misleading. We would like to see the eurozone system stabilised in one way or another. We think that there are great dangers for us all in not doing so. How that will be developed and what Mrs Merkel and the German Government will decide about the short-term question of their flexibility in relation to the Greek bailout terms are questions hanging in the air that I cannot answer from this Dispatch Box; and nor, I think, can anybody else. We believe that current events have demonstrated the importance of credible policy action to attempt to maintain and restore market confidence, which is clearly weak. We think now is the time to act. The eurozone has to take some kind of concerted action to sort itself out, and this legislation allows it to take a step in the right direction.

The treaty amendment is very much in this country’s interest. The establishment of the ESM by the eurozone member states will remove the UK’s liability for future euro area financial assistance programmes under the EU budget. Establishing the ESM, with the support of this Bill, will help eurozone member states find the path to the financial stability that in the end they must have. If they fail to have it, it will damage us all. That path to stability will have benefits for the UK and beyond. The ESM is only part of the way forward out of the eurozone crisis, but it is an important and valuable one. I therefore hope that your Lordships will share my views on this legislation.

Bill read a second time and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

Israel and Palestine: West Bank

Lord Howell of Guildford Excerpts

Monday 21st May 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Brinton]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what representations they have made to the Government of Israel following the recent order to Palestinian farmers in the West Bank to uproot their olive trees.

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford)]

My Lords, the Government are aware of the recent order by Israeli authorities to Palestinian farmers in the West Bank village of Deir Istiya to uproot 1,400 newly planted olive trees. On 8 May, our embassy in Tel Aviv raised our concerns with the Israeli authorities responsible for the Occupied Palestinian Territories. We encourage and expect Israel to adhere to its obligations under international law.

[Baroness Brinton]

I thank the Minister for his reply. Given that the Israeli Government seem to be changing the rules about land ownership on the West Bank at whim, what further pressure can the UK Government bring to bear on the Israelis to cease this illegal activity immediately and to allow the farmers to continue the cultivation of their trees, which is also their principal economic activity?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I understand the concerns of my noble friend, who has direct personal experience of the situation in this area. There are difficulties in that there all kinds of different rules governing the ownership of land—layer after layer of them arising from the different status of this area over several decades. This causes confusion and difficulty, and my noble friend is right to identify it. These are the problems. We keep raising them with the Israeli authorities. Obviously, if the trees were mature and established, it would be even worse, as ancient olive trees are of great value, but even with these newly planted trees, there remains a constant dispute about whether the area is a nature reserve, as the authorities suggest, or an area where planting can properly take place. We shall keep monitoring the situation very closely indeed.

[Lord Turnberg]

Is it not the case that Battir village, one of the villages in which the olive trees are slated to be removed, is the still the subject of a legal battle and no final decision has been taken on it? Is it not also the case that the economy of the West Bank is growing quite markedly—at the rate of 6% to 7% per annum—productivity is going right up, towns that used to be the centres of terrorism are now centres of economic development and large numbers of the barriers and checkpoints have been removed?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

The noble Lord is quite right to bring forward the good news to balance the bad news. Unfortunately, there is a slice of both. He is right that in Ramallah and related areas industrial activity has increased and major orders are fulfilled, not least for the British market, thanks to the efforts of the noble Lord, Lord Stone, and others in this House. That is a very encouraging side of the West Bank, but there is a discouraging side, of which I am afraid this constant friction about what the Palestinian farmers may do and—if I may raise an even more controversial point—what the settlers are allowed to do, is the negative aspect of an otherwise potentially good story.

[Lord Hussain]

My Lords, in addition to the problem of trees being uprooted, many Palestinian communities on the West Bank are finding their water sources being diverted to illegal settlements. What are the Government doing to persuade the Israeli Government to take action against illegal settlers, especially when essential resources, such as water, are being diverted?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I think my noble friend is well aware, because I have said it many times in your Lordships’ House, that the British Government regard the settlements policy and the expansion of settlements as illegal. We also deplore the recent tendency, which seems to be going against previous trends, of legalising previously illegal settlement outposts. These are again matters that we raise again and again with our opposite numbers in the Israeli Government. We believe that the policy of settlements is one of the barriers to the higher purpose we all want to achieve of reopening negotiations and getting a long and lasting settlement of the Israeli/Palestinian situation.

[Lord Grocott]

My Lords, I am sure that the House will fully understand and sympathise with the difficulty that the noble Lord, Lord Howell, has in answering Questions of this sort. It has been the case for many Ministers from both major political parties over the years. Basically, they have to express concern about what is happening, which is the profound and fundamental illegality of one country occupying another country’s land. It seems to everyone who looks closely at these things that all we seem able to do is express our concern and raise the matters with the Israeli authorities. Surely, the question should be: at what point do the Government of Israel face any disadvantage whatever—at the moment, there seems to be none—from continuing with the illegal settlement activities?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I am grateful for the sympathy of a former Chief Whip for a Minister when there are two sides to these questions and an element of balance is essential in assessing the realities and prospects. There is more that this country can do and seeks to do, collectively with our allies such as United Nations colleagues, within the EU and bilaterally. We can press on the various points that may yield some progress towards reconciliation and settlement. Israel’s security has to be considered. The noble Lord says that there is nothing to lose but always at the back of people’s minds are questions of Israel’s security. At the same time, these are occupied territories. We want to see an end to that process and a two-state solution that is not undermined by the settlements. These are all aspirations towards which we can and do work, beyond being concerned day-to-day about specific issues such as the one we are discussing now.

[Lord Selsdon]

My Lords, I declare an interest as a producer of olive trees. I have only 200 but I assure your Lordships that an olive tree takes a long time to grow. It has much significance, not least because of Gethsemane and the Mount of Olives. There is politics in this as well. Will my noble friend tell me what the economic deficit is here? What cost is being incurred by uprooting these olive trees and what is their value?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

As we are dealing with newly planted trees, their value is all in the future. However, I am grateful to my noble friend for his reminder of the significance of the olive tree. I am full of admiration for his growing them because I was told that you could not grow olive trees with decent olives north of Valence in France.

Bangladesh

Lord Howell of Guildford Excerpts

Monday 21st May 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Harris of Haringey]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what diplomatic representations they have made to the Government of Bangladesh about the disappearance and alleged kidnapping of Mr Ilias Ali and other opposition politicians.

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford)]

My Lords, I am not going to have much time for any chillaxing today.

We are concerned about the disappearance of Mr Ilias Ali. On 9 May, our High Commissioner to Bangladesh and ambassadors of eight other European countries called on the Bangladesh authorities to conduct thorough investigations into disappearances, including that of Mr Ali. In meetings with the Prime Minister’s Office and senior officials in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, we have urged the Government to do all that they can to locate Mr Ali and investigate the circumstances of his disappearance.

[Lord Harris of Haringey]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for that reply and for the expressions of concern by the British Government, but is he aware that there are a series of similar cases, including that of Mr Nazmul Islam, a local leader of the Bangladesh Nationalist Party, who was abducted and murdered last December, and that according to the BBC 30 people have disappeared in that way in the past year? There are allegations, too, that the police’s Rapid Action Battalion is involved. In those circumstances, do Her Majesty’s Government accept that this reflects very badly on Bangladesh and its obviously fairly fragile democracy? What support can be given to ensure that the individuals concerned are rescued and restored to their families and that this sort of occurrence stops?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

The noble Lord is right that this kind of development reflects badly on the political culture of any society in which opposition leaders are arrested or worse. He asked what can be done. The EU had a heads of mission visit in February to Bangladesh and stated its concerns very clearly. We are fully behind that. In addition, our senior Ministers, including my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary, have been in direct personal contact with senior officials, including the Foreign Minister of Bangladesh, and we take every opportunity to express our worries. It is a concern for us. People may ask why we are worried about Bangladesh. It is an important nation and the destination of one of DfID’s largest programmes, with £1 billion due to go to support Bangladesh development from this country over the next four years. It is a nation that we want to see stable and prosperous and to build on its economic achievements, which are beginning to show dividends. That is the rather encouraging side of an otherwise bad story.

[Lord Hussain]

My Lords, I had the opportunity to meet Mr Ilias Ali in Luton when he visited the United Kingdom a few months ago and raised human rights issues in Bangladesh with him, as I have with the Minister concerned. Sadly, we hear that Mr Ali has disappeared, along with his driver. However, this is not an isolated case. The New York-based Human Rights Watch has expressed concern over the disappearance of at least 22 people this year. A Dhaka-based organisation says that more than 50 people have disappeared since 2010. Security agencies, including the—

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Hussain]

Fair enough; those two will do.

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

A whole range of concerns have been expressed by my noble friend. I understand his feelings. This is not a good story at all. He asks whether we will press for impartial and transparent investigations into these disappearances. We do so, have done so, and will continue to do so. In some cases, we will be pressing at an open door and there will be investigations, but in other cases we may not be so successful. However, one has to accept that the drive for ending this dark atmosphere over Bangladeshi politics must come from within that nation. We support Bangladesh in its efforts to stabilise its politics, to move towards the best kind of elections at the next appropriate time and to develop and lift its people out of poverty and the appalling environmental challenges that they also face and with which, sadly, we are all too familiar.

[Lord Avebury]

My Lords, will my noble friend ask the Bangladesh Government whether they will issue an invitation to the United Nations working group on disappearances, which is the proper body to investigate not just the recent disappearances mentioned in the Question but those going back a long way, most of which are attributed to the RAB?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

That sounds like a very positive thought. I will certainly consider it and discuss it with my colleagues.

Arms Trade Treaty

Lord Howell of Guildford Excerpts

Monday 21st May 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what their principal objectives will be in the negotiations for an arms trade treaty at the United Nations in July.

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford)]

My Lords, the United Kingdom is firmly committed to securing a robust and legally binding arms trade treaty to regulate effectively the international trade in conventional arms. The final treaty should have a demonstrable humanitarian, security and development impact, and be capable of implementation in practice to ensure the broadest participation of states, including major arms exporters. This should be achieved without creating an undue additional burden for the legitimate defence industry.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick]

I thank the Minister for that helpful reply. I am sure he agrees with his right honourable friend the Minister for Overseas Development, who, when speaking to the International Institute for Strategic Studies last week, said that the Government’s principal objective between now and the negotiations in July is to “raise the profile” of the arms trade treaty. Does the Minister not agree that the two steps that the Government could best take to do that would be, first, to announce immediately that the Foreign Secretary will attend the opening of negotiations at the UN in July; and, secondly, for the Prime Minister to give his full support in a speech between now and the opening of the conference? Will the Minister lend his support to those two measures?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

To be fair, I say to the noble Lord, who obviously has been very much at the centre of these things, that the full support is most certainly there. All along, from the time that this initiative began in 2008, the British Government, under the previous Labour Administration and under this Administration, have given very full support to this and we want it brought to the point where we can get a draft treaty. However, as he knows, it is no use being too starry-eyed about overcoming all the difficulties. As to ministerial attendance or ministerial speeches, we will have to look at that. I know that this is a high priority. Of course, my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary has many high priorities and this most certainly is one of them, so we will have to take a decision on attendance in due course.

[Lord Judd]

My Lords, does the Minister accept that the Government and civil servants should be warmly congratulated on their hard work and consistent commitment to achieving this treaty? Does he agree that it would be better to have no treaty than an inadequate, weak treaty? In that context, does he further agree that talk of taking into account the criteria, such as human rights, end-use and the rest, is simply not enough? There must be an absolute refusal of permission where these matters are in any kind of doubt.

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

The noble Lord is on to something, which he has been on to before. He has been second to none in arguing the case for a robust treaty. Indeed, it is the Government’s view that this treaty should be robust and that a weak treaty which would have the effect of legitimising lower standards of arms control, arms export, arms import, arms trade and arms transport would be no addition at all. He is entirely correct that this needs to be a robust treaty. We have aimed for that. We believe that certain things are in reach. Countries which appeared to be extremely negative to start with are now taking a more positive and constructive attitude, and we aim to make substantial progress on a robust treaty.

[Baroness Williams of Crosby]

Perhaps I may say how very welcome the reply of the Minister has been, as was the speech by the Minister for International Development in the past few days. Given that 153 of the 193 member states of the United Nations have strongly supported the arms trade treaty, will the Minister say whether in the last analysis we would be prepared to walk away from an agreement based on a weak consensus?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I am not totally clear of my noble friend’s question. She supports what has been achieved and, as she rightly says, a considerable number of countries have signed up. However, countries which we thought might be much more reluctant have not done so. Certainly, there are key issues yet to be finalised on weapons to be covered and export criteria. These are difficulties. If my noble friend’s question was whether we would walk away if it looked like too weak a treaty, I say that we do not intend that to happen. We intend the treaty to be at least where it is now, with broad agreement discussed on many crucial issues and out of which we can produce a robust treaty.

[The Lord Bishop of St Edmundsbury and Ipswich]

My Lords, we have long been supportive of a robust attitude to such a treaty. Can the Minister offer any advice as to whether the Government are able to help and support some of those fragile nations which are emerging from conflict or are still in conflict to be able to take part fully in these negotiations? They have so much to gain from a robust treaty.

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

These fragile nations certainly have much to gain and we want to see their participation. Like all nations, they have a legitimate desire to defend themselves. One must be realistic: if one wants to protect people and nations, some hard-power defence—in other words, weaponry—is needed. There has to be support for sensible, non-repressive arms supplies across international barriers, which can support the proper protection of young nations as they struggle to establish themselves and achieve stability against incursions from outside.

[Lord Howarth of Newport]

My Lords, in their vision for Britain’s economic future, do coalition Ministers foresee us earning our living to a diminishing extent by contributing to the saturation of unstable areas of the world with weapons? In the process, we tie ourselves into long-term relationships with unsavoury regimes while committing disproportionate amounts of resources that would otherwise be used to construct a more balanced and responsible economy.

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

The noble Lord paints a bad picture of the international arms trade, and it is bad—largely because of illegal arms trading, with blind eyes being turned by Governments. In our case, we have one of the most rigid supervisions of criteria applications for arms export in the world. We operate on a very close case-by-case basis, and it is generally agreed looking back over the last two tumultuous years in the Arab spring that very rigid controls have broadly operated. Certainly, we have received no evidence to the contrary. But his broader picture of a world awash in arms is precisely the one that must cease and to which this arms trade treaty, if we can get it in the form we want, will make some contribution. It will not cure all the problems but it will make some contribution.

[Lord Trefgarne]

Will my noble friend make available the current draft of this important document so that we can all express our views on it?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I will have to see whether there is a draft at this stage. The next stage of conferring in July is aimed at creating a draft, upon which thereafter a treaty could be built. If there are documents that can be usefully circulated, I will certainly look and see what can be done.