Kyrgyzstan

Lord Howell of Guildford Excerpts

Wednesday 6th April 2011 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Waverley]

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper and, in so doing, declare that I am chairman of the British Kyrgyzstan All-Party Parliamentary Group.

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford)]

My Lords, this is a symbolic day, in that it marks the precise anniversary of the start of the unrest that toppled Kurmanbek Bakiev’s regime. The consequences of that change and the serious clashes that followed in June in the southern cities of Osh and Jalal-Abad continue to reverberate in Kyrgyzstan. It is important, therefore, that the new political structures begin to deliver real change that helps Kyrgyzstan to move on from last year’s tragic events.

[Viscount Waverley]

My Lords, the current situation in Kyrgyzstan is tense and complex, with a need for consensus and inter-ethnic reconciliation. What are the expectations from the delayed Kimmo Kiljunen commission inquiry report and how can the report be used in a constructive manner to promote understanding and reconciliation for internal and regional stability issues? Is it recognised that effective coalition governance and working for economic and social development are what will make the real difference for the people of Kyrgyzstan?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

On the second point, yes, I am sure that it is fully recognised that that is a completely accurate assessment of what is needed. The Kimmo Kiljunen report is not due until next month—I think that there is a problem with translation aspects. Obviously, we very much hope that, as it looks back to the horrors of the multiple deaths of the past, it will be able to contribute to reconciliation in future, but we have not yet seen it.

[Baroness Nicholson of Winterbourne]

Does the Minister agree that, given the high level of corruption that has been entrenched in the political system in Kyrgyzstan since independence, the €38 million contribution from the European Union towards public finance and social protection is to be welcomed? Will he tell us what supervision the European Union is putting in place to ensure that this funding is used in the proper manner?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

My noble friend is quite right to point to the substantial contribution from the EU. As core contributors to EU and UN funds—and, indeed, through the work of the OSCE—we have a considerable concern and need to ensure that these things are properly monitored. We are assured that the monitoring is tough and close. It should also not be forgotten that we provide about £7 million a year in direct bilateral assistance through DfID, so we are making a substantial contribution both indirectly and directly. I accept the point that these things need to be very closely monitored to see that they are really doing a good job.

[Lord Kilclooney]

My Lords, as Kyrgyzstan works towards emerging from its Soviet past and, unfortunately, had terrible ethnic problems last year, which damaged the Uzbek minority there considerably, in what way are the Government assisting Kyrgyzstan in the path towards becoming a modern democratic country?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I had hoped that I had made it clear that our assistance is predominantly through the multilateral organisations: the European Union, the UN and the OSCE. I have just mentioned that we make a bilateral contribution as well. Obviously these are parts of a more general aim, in the interests of this country, to contribute to the stability of the whole region, which has important implications for the future security of the whole of Europe, including, particularly, in the energy field. I think that I have to repeat what I said earlier, which was that it is through the international institutions that we are making our main effort.

[Lord Martin of Springburn]

It is my understanding that many politicians from that country are keen to learn about parliamentary democracy. Could the IPU and the CPA be approached, because they have an excellent reputation for running seminars for politicians from abroad, particularly those from new democracies, to give whatever help and assistance they can and to allow Members of both Houses to share their experiences of parliamentary democracy?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

That is a very positive idea. I will check with both those organisations to see what involvement they have. My half-memory is that they already have some involvement with promoting the beginnings and the embryo of parliamentary improvement and government in that country and associated countries. I will certainly approach them and check it out.

[Lord Dykes]

Can my noble friend say what the situation is with the freedom of the press in Kyrgyzstan at the moment?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I cannot say precisely, but there are questions about how much and whether proper freedom is being observed. There have been some criticisms. These are the sort of issues that we monitor very closely. We are not at all reticent or backward in pointing out the vital need for greater freedom of the press if democracy is to develop there.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

When the Minister contacts the IPU and the CPA about the promotion of democracy in Kyrgyzstan and elsewhere, will he include the Westminster Foundation for Democracy, which was set up by the previous Conservative Government and supported by the Labour Government and works closely with the CPA and the IPU? It has an increasing role not just in the Caucasus but in the Middle East, north Africa and—in light of the next Question, which is on Côte d’Ivoire—in sub-Saharan Africa.

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

That is an emphatic yes.

Côte d’Ivoire

Lord Howell of Guildford Excerpts

Wednesday 6th April 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Kinnock of Holyhead]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their assessment of the role of the African Union and the European Union in the crisis in Côte d’Ivoire.

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford)]

We have fully supported the African Union and the European Union in their efforts to find a solution to the crisis. The African Union has been clear that Mr Alassane Ouattara legitimately won last year’s elections. It is deeply regrettable that Mr Gbagbo continues to disregard the views of his African Union peers and the will of the Ivoirian people. The EU responded quickly and imposed targeted measures against Gbagbo and those supporting his illegitimate regime. The situation remains very uncertain, but once President Ouattara is fully able to assume office, we will encourage the European Union, the African Union and other international actors to support national reconciliation efforts.

[Baroness Kinnock of Holyhead]

I thank the noble Lord for his response, which is very helpful and informative. Clearly, the UN offences have tipped the balance, as we see this morning. I am sure he will agree that we hope that President Gbagbo will give himself up today to the United Nations and end the misery and suffering of the people of Ivory Coast. Does the noble Lord agree that the legitimate, internationally recognised president, Mr Ouattara, will then urgently need to build peace and reconciliation and to foster regional stability?

Côte d’Ivoire has been depicted as a model of stability but, as I have seen for myself, there are deep ethnic, religious and economic divisions in that country. Will Her Majesty’s Government therefore undertake, through the EU, actively to support efforts to end the political division between the north and south of Côte d’Ivoire, which lies at the root of the crisis both before and since the election last November?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

The noble Baroness has a particular and expert knowledge of this important, considerable country, which has a major trading role. Indeed, it is the world’s largest producer of cocoa, although that is not the immediate concern of all of us. Of much more concern is of course the horrific killings and the incipient, or indeed developed, civil war.

The noble Baroness asks whether we will undertake to play our part. Yes, we will. Through the EU, we will produce robust, restrictive measures and we will support the work of the UN—there are 9,000 UN troops there. We also indicate our support for the operation by the French authorities, which is at the request of Ban Ki-moon, the UN Secretary-General. We shall continue with any other forms of support that we can. The situation requires serious international attention, as the destabilisation of the whole region could develop from the horrors in Côte d’Ivoire. Like the noble Baroness we want to see, in the next hours if possible, Mr Gbagbo face the realities and a peaceful end to this ugly situation achieved.

[Lord Hughes of Woodside]

Does the Minister recall that the African Union frequently calls for African solutions to African problems? Laudable though that aim may be, is he aware that there is real concern that the African Union appears to think that mediation is the only thing necessary? Mediation is extremely important but is it not time for the African Union to consider wider measures, especially when there are such huge humanitarian problems faced by Côte d’Ivoire?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I think I have the sense of what the noble Lord is asking. The African Union role in this is very important and it has made some strong statements, as has the regional organisation, ECOWAS, whose support is also vital in this pattern. I hope that I have answered what I think the noble Lord was saying.

[Lord Chidgey]

Will my noble friend give your Lordships an update on the condition and situation of the thousands of refugees who have been fleeing the conflict and the activities of the militia? Is my noble friend aware, for example, that over the border, as a result of the recent civil wars, there were massive UN refugee camps in border towns such as Macenta and Nzérékoré? Are the Government making inquiries as to whether these camps are still available for use and for providing the sort of shelter and provisions that these refugees will need? In that context, can he tell us whether the Government are talking to our counterparts in the Guinean Government and the French Government who run these camps?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

A continuous network of exchanges goes on. I cannot specify precisely which countries we have talked to very recently, but there is constant contact. My noble friend is quite right to draw attention to the major refugee problem. It is estimated that over 100,000 refugees have gone across the border, as he says, but that border is with Liberia—we must remember that five countries have a border with Côte d’Ivoire and that Sierra Leone, although it is not one of the contiguous countries, is not far away. A major refugee problem is developing, and we are focusing on how we can help. DfID announced on 26 March that the Government are providing £8 million to humanitarian agencies to provide emergency aid for refugees in Liberia and a further £8 million for inside Côte d’Ivoire itself. We are focused as far as is possible on this still expanding problem, and we must all pray that the expansion turns to contraction very soon and that peace descends so that some of the refugees can return home. However, there are many ugly situations between the north and the south yet to be resolved, and between the two warring parties.

[The Lord Bishop of Bath and Wells]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his remarks in relation to national reconciliation. I have this morning been talking to Methodist colleagues who have recently returned from Côte d’Ivoire. Besides the incredible realities of the humanitarian crisis, will the Minister seek to ensure that inquiries are made as to the sources of those who have conducted the massacres in that country and that those people be brought to appropriate justice under international law?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

There are two channels through which these matters are being examined. First, the International Criminal Court has indicated, I think overnight, in fairly direct terms that it is considering an investigation into the horrors of the Duékoué massacre. Secondly, the International Red Cross is also conducting a detailed report into those massacres. The ICC is going beyond looking at any specific horrors, of which there have been plenty, and is considering abuses generally and whether war crimes have occurred. Finally, the UN Commission on Human Rights has called for an independent inquiry into all abuses in Côte d’Ivoire since the election. Therefore, there are not two but three agencies focusing on what has happened. I have no doubt that out of that will come some specific charges because it is clear that some hideous crimes have been committed.

European Union Bill

Lord Howell of Guildford Excerpts

Tuesday 5th April 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Liddle]

With the greatest respect, I think that the noble Lord is confusing two things. I am looking in the direction of the noble Lord, Lord Kerr. I think that Article 48(6) deals with cases where there is a clear competence—for instance, in the case that I was talking about of the single market in financial services and in the previous case about the euro, the establishment of economic and monetary union and of a single currency. I think that the noble Lord is talking about the general clauses which are now subject, under the Lisbon treaty, to considerable constraints. I will look into that and perhaps we can have a discussion.

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford)]

My Lords, it would be an implausible exaggeration to say that I have enjoyed this debate, but it is a privilege to hear the fine minds of many of your Lordships playing on these issues, which are undoubtedly complex. I do not make any apology for that, because much of the EU legislative scene is extremely complex, as are our relations with it. I strongly agree with the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, that although this seems to be an abstruse issue, which I shall address in great detail in a moment, it is also central and raises fundamental points about the whole nature and purpose of the Bill. I should also put in a good word for my Belgian friends, who came in for criticism of the kind that, frankly, I do not like. I will let that pass for the moment.

As the debate has ranged a little beyond the central point, to which the noble Lord, Lord Tomlinson, rightly urged we return, I hope that I will be allowed a few paragraphs trying to explain the context in which we come both to adherence to the central issue of the amendment and to the Bill.

We believe that there has been disaffection among the British electorate in recent years. I think that it is a mistake for the most enthusiastic supporters and builders of the European Union and our membership of it to ignore that fact, because it has led, through the successive handing over of powers to the EU—often for excellent reasons but without consultation with or the consent of the British people—to a good deal of distrust. That works totally against good Europeanism and an effective development and strengthening of the European Union, which are certainly required today.

The competences and powers have been handed over, in many cases—this is an argument that we have heard buzzing across the Floor of your Lordships’ House this afternoon—for good reasons. As my noble friend Lord Deben said, great things can be and have been gained by the handing over of competences and powers, whether or not you call it pooling of sovereignty. Others would argue, as we have heard today and often before, that the handing over of those powers has not been for the good. That wider debate has gone on and will continue in future.

Of course, the Bill does not concern what has been handed over in the past. I know that that is a matter of criticism for some of my noble friends and others in the other place, where there was considerable criticism that the Bill did not try to wind things back into the past, although it is worth reminding ourselves, as the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, did, that the House of Commons passed the Bill and gave it to us for scrutiny, which we must perform in detail.

However, that fact of dissatisfaction cannot be dismissed or pushed aside by those who seek to understand the disquiet not just in the media and in the so-called anti-European or Eurosceptic papers but among a wide number of people and organisations, including some extremely learned people and leading lights in the legal profession. That is why the coalition’s programme for government gives the undertaking:

“The Government believes that Britain should play a leading role in an enlarged European Union, but that no further powers should be transferred”.

[Lord Dykes]

I am most grateful to the Minister for giving way so early in his remarks. I apologise for interrupting him. Is he asserting that the Government have in recent weeks and months been in receipt of lots of e-mails and letters from members of the public advocating withdrawal from Europe or being strongly anti-European? Does he recall what, on the last day of the Committee of the Whole House in the Commons, the Member of Parliament for Ipswich, the distinguished son of my noble friend Lord Deben, Mr Ben Gummer, said? He said:

“Over the past few days, I have had nearly 100 emails and letters about forests, but since 7 May I have not had a single letter or email about withdrawal from the European Union”.—[Official Report, Commons, 1/1/11; col. 793.]

Will my noble friend confirm that the public are not worried about this in large numbers? It is the comics that masquerade as newspapers in Britain that are stirring it all up.

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I have no idea whether that is the case with the excellent son of my noble friend Lord Deben, who is a lively Member of the other place. I do not think that that has any relevance to the general concerns expressed over the years increasingly and very vigorously in this House and the other place on all the treaties that we have debated. There is a lowering of trust, commitment and enthusiasm for the European Union, which is bad for the Union and bad for the future of our co-operation and relations with the rest of the Union and which needs to be addressed. That is the Government’s view. If it is not my noble friend’s view, that is, in a sense, bad luck, because we believe that to be so.

[Lord Clinton-Davis]

Will the noble Lord give way?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I am not too keen on giving way now. We have had a long debate. I do not want to be rude in any way and I greatly respect the noble Lord, but if I could be allowed to get past my first paragraph, that would be quite a treat.

I was going on to say that it is because of that dissatisfaction that, in our programme for government, from which I was reading, the coalition made a commitment to introduce legislation to establish a referendum requirement for treaty changes that transferred power or competence from Britain to Brussels—I cited the words referring to powers—and, in the process, to strengthen the power of the British people to exert their influence over such decisions and thereby increase their engagement with those decisions and the work of the European Union more generally. I may say that that task was notably pushed aside in a rather cavalier way by the previous Government, with the result that there was a very noticeable decline in public enthusiasm for and commitment to the European Union.

I do not want to rehearse in depth the arguments that I went over on Second Reading related to the principles, but I repeat that, contrary to the views of those who have depicted the Bill as some kind of anti-European device, I see it firmly as a tool to strengthen our position, role and effect as a member state of the European Union, because of its impact on citizens’ involvement with the issues before them and their engagement with the EU. Of course, that means referenda. If, like my noble friends Lord Deben and Lord Garel-Jones, you do not like referenda, that is a perfectly respectable position to hold. They will recall that, again and again, referenda have been used. At the time of the Lisbon treaty and the ill fated constitution for the EU, all three parties were in favour of referenda. That was the position then. No doubt the noble Lords had their objections then, so it is not surprising that they will have their objections now. I respect that, but this is a difference that we cannot necessarily bridge. Either we are ready to see the use of referenda in this electronic age or we deplore them and think that they are in some way an attack on parliamentary sovereignty. I do not believe that to be so, because Parliament remains sovereign regardless.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

It is certainly true that in your Lordships’ House there has been a notable weight of criticism against the Bill. I fully accept that. I have to remind the noble Lord that the House of Commons passed this Bill without the opposition of his party. This is a House of Commons Bill, as the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, reminded us. It could be that those who feel strongly and are most expert in aspects of it or feel most strongly about broader issues are those who come forward to speak.

[Lord Liddle]

The Minister said this at Second Reading. Labour put down a reasoned amendment in the other place which expressed many reservations about the Bill. It is not true to say that Labour did not oppose it.

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

Labour did not oppose the Bill overall, but it certainly urged that we should scrutinise it and that, by heavens, is what we are doing. No doubt we will be doing a good deal more of that.

With this legislation, we are, in our view, plainly acting in the spirit of the Laeken declaration, which noble Lords will remember urged that we should seek to find ways, which are widely recognised throughout the whole of the European Union, not just in this country, to bring the processes of the Union and its legislative procedures closer to the people. That was 10 years ago. It urged us to act on that basis. It seems to me timely—if anything, a little tardy—and certainly appropriate for the era in which we now live that we should bring forward legislation on which, we hope, we can build an architecture of faith and commitment to the European Union for the future and a building that we hope will last although, obviously, we would not like to see—we will be debating this later—future Governments remove the foundation stones from that architecture and destroy it. That would be a pity, but it will again be a matter of opinion and debate. The Bill is put forward with that kind of faith and intention in our minds. Frankly, calling it a fraud on the public is a deeply regrettable statement—deplorable, in my view—and not at all in line with the tone of debates in this House of Lords. I think that it is a pity that people should speak in that way.

I want to come to the core issue in the debate. The simplified revision procedure allows the European Council to decide to make amendments to the part of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union that concerns internal policies. That is what the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, stated quite clearly. This is the Article 48(6) issue. The noble Lord said that the treaty changes under the simplified revision procedure are not allowed to transfer further competence from the UK to the EU. Here I hesitate, because I am going to challenge the viewpoint and authority of the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, and many others, but certainly the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, who is a great expert. After all, he was, I understand, rapporteur of the European constitution, which came to, I am afraid, a sticky end, but he has vast expertise. However, it is possible to transfer further powers from this country to the institutions of the EU. The potential for a substantial amendment to be made under this mechanism means that we should treat, logically, changes under the simplified revision procedure in the same way as we would treat other types of change. I was challenged again and again about what sort of things are involved. I have a long list of powers in the past, present and future that will be affected by the transfer of powers.

[Lord Kerr of Kinlochard]

Could the Minister give us some examples? I cannot think of examples of transfers of powers that do not involve a change to the treaties. Can he explain what these transfers are?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I was in the midst of saying that I would do that. Article 48(6) can be used to amend Part 3 of the TFEU, which covers Union policies and internal actions, such as the internal market, agriculture, freedom, security and justice, competition, employment, the environment and public health. In the past, the Lisbon treaty agreed to move 51 vetoes from unanimity to QMV. Somewhere I even have a list, which I shall secure in a moment, of the kind of vetoes, emergency brakes or moves to compel the United Kingdom to do something new or a new power or sanction on the UK involving a treaty change that might or might not qualify under paragraphs (i) and (j) of Clause 4(1) as significant, might or might not be exemptions if they did not affect this country and might or might not therefore become one of the items that might lead to a legislative treaty ratification process that might require a referendum. That is the situation.

[Lord Kinnock]

I hesitate to interrupt the Minister, because this is an issue to which we must perforce return. When he refers to the 51 vetoes that are alleged to have been sacrificed in the context of the Lisbon treaty, I am sure that he will acknowledge that a large number of them suited the purpose of the United Kingdom’s national interest and that there was no argument about them. Nine of them referred exclusively to transitional arrangements being made for the purposes of the unification of the Federal Republic of Germany, while many others—I will give instances one by one in the course of this Committee—had absolutely no effect whatsoever on any loss of sovereign power by the Parliament or people of this United Kingdom. I hope that the Minister, who is an honourable man, is not going to take the risk of distracting us from discussion of what is actually provided for in Article 48(6) by making references that are at best redundant.

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I understand the feeling of the noble Lord on this, but I want to come in a moment to the reasons why a number of these things would not trigger a referendum. Some things will; some things will not. Most of the items that the noble Lord just mentioned sound to me—I do not know what specific items he is mentioning, but I have already mentioned a list—like items under paragraphs (i) and (j) of Clause 4(1) that would not pass the significance test, so there would be no referendum. I shall explain later that many of the pictures that have been presented of tiny items triggering a single referendum are completely unrealistic in the context of past experience, of which the noble Lords, Lord Kerr and Lord Hannay, have huge amounts. There is the idea that the pattern will be that little bits would dribble out, but let me explain why it will not work in that way.

As far as the simplified revision procedure is concerned, I have explained that Clause 3 would extend the requirements that we are proposing for treaty changes under the ordinary revision procedure, which is a vast and cumbersome thing, in Clause 2 to those transfers of power under the simplified revision procedure. We think that our consistent approach is logical and will help to garner the trust of the British public that we are not seeking all the time to expand the EU’s powers through the back door of the famous competence creep or, in this case, power creep, which has worried so many people who feel that Parliament is not being a sufficient safeguard of the interests of this country.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

Will the Minister answer one—

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I will have to plead with your Lordships that if they want answers to all their questions, I cannot manage it if there are constant interruptions. I just cannot do it.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

I have one simple question on the point made by my noble friend Lord Tomlinson when he intervened in my speech. Perhaps the Minister could give us just one or two examples from the past where, if this legislation had been in existence, a referendum would have been triggered.

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I have given some examples from the past and I have some more here. There have been 51 vetoes to unanimity, most of which would have failed a significance test, would have been exempted, would not have applied to this country or would have had no influence on our affairs. I am advised that another past example of a transfer of power is when the Court of Justice was given the new power to impose fines on member states for non-compliance in specific areas. Were that to have been proposed in an area under Part 3 of the Bill or Article 48(6), it would represent a transfer of power which would have to be assessed over the tests in this Bill.

I want now to turn to the crucial implications.

[Lord Kerr of Kinlochard]

I think that the proposal to which the Minister was referring for giving a fining power to the court was originally proposed by the United Kingdom but I am more worried about the definitional point. I have not yet heard an example of a transfer of competence or powers—the words used by the Minister at Second Reading and again today. I hear about voting rules, and the Government can of course refuse to change the voting rules, but I have not heard about a transfer of power.

I do not think that any example yet given by the Minister is of a transfer of power; that is, something we give up. If the Court of Justice is given a fining power, no British court has a power to levy fines withdrawn. It is not a transfer. I agree that that may be an additional power to the Court of Justice but that is nothing about its competence. It is not a transfer of power if we are not giving anything up. We want the Court to enforce EU law.

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I think that we have agreed that we are concerned with powers under Article 48(6) and the noble Lord is worried about powers rather than competences. It is true that the transfer of powers is not defined in European legislation, so we have to look at these detailed points, such as the surrender of certain vetoes or the removal of the availability to hold to a veto, and look at issues where a sanction is imposed on the United Kingdom which involves the limitation of a power moving to the higher levels of the European Union and taking it away from this country. These may be small powers. I want to come to what I believe to be a canard—that all this will lead to an endless series of referenda. It will not and I shall show exactly why it will not. But they are transfers of power and they come in a variety of forms. I have mentioned two or three. I will seek to get a longer list as we discuss these things but the pattern is there. The pattern of power must be considered as well as the pattern of competences.

Let me address what lies behind the amendment and the worry about Article 48(6); namely, will this procedure as applied to the transfer of powers as well as to the transfer of competences which would trigger the referendum requirement, provided they got over the significance hurdle, the exemption hurdle and other hurdles, lead to numerous referendums on trivial issues? If it did, I think that I would agree with some of the rather cruder and blunter criticisms of the Bill that this would not be a sensible way to proceed, with constant concerns about quite small issues triggering a referendum for the whole United Kingdom. Clearly, that would be absurd.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick]

I am most grateful to the noble Lord for giving way. Can he tell us whether any other member state has a referendum requirement for an Article 48(6) decision? I believe that the answer is no, but I am sure that the Government will be better informed than I am. Perhaps he would also note that the example he gave about the ability to fine by the European Court of Justice was in a treaty revision. That treaty revision would fall under a quite separate provision of this Bill, which we have not yet discussed but which we will come on to discuss, and will have nothing whatever to do with Article 48(6). Therefore, it merely reinforces the argument that the Article 48(6) reference is otiose.

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I was just about to make points on the question raised. It would have been reasonable—I would not put it higher than that—for the noble Lord, whose wisdom I respect, to have allowed me to go ahead with what I was saying rather than interrupt me to say something that I was about to say and so lengthen the whole business: we have already been on this debate for two and a quarter hours. I plead with your Lordships that if we could just restrain ourselves a little we would make some progress.

I was turning to the important point about what other countries do when they are trying to get through treaty changes. That seemed to be absent from the attitude of many of the understandable critics among your Lordships about what is going on in the European Union. We heard speeches at Second Reading and in this debate implying that we were stepping out alone and marginalising Britain, that this was a completely different pattern and that we would cause the fury of other European member states. Incidentally, I am not sure that I can answer fully the noble Lord’s perfectly justifiable question on the consultations we have had and at what level with our European partners but I can assure noble Lords that all our posts in Europe have been fully briefed on this and have discussed it with their opposite numbers.

Let me just go through some of the immense hurdles, some of which are higher than anything we are proposing here, which many other member states already practise. In Austria, the President must certify that treaty changes are in conformity with the Austrian constitution. If changes are judged to be a revision of the federal constitution, a referendum is required. In Denmark, a referendum is constitutionally required if the treaty transfers competences to the EU and is not voted on by five-sixths of the majority in Parliament. In France, a referendum is required if a treaty change necessitates a constitutional amendment, and incidentally I notice that the French require a referendum on future accession treaties, which of course do not arise in this Bill. That may be to the dismay of some, and we can debate it later. In Ireland, a referendum is required if a treaty is thought to alter the scope and objectives of the European Union, as we know. In Lithuania, a referendum is mandatory according to the constitution if treaty changes involve the partial transfer of competences of government bodies to the institutions of the European Union. In Slovakia, a referendum would be held on a treaty which relinquished sovereignty to the European Union, although there is a rider that the Slovakian constitutional court can also consider the case. Similar referendums may be required in the Czech Republic, Greece and the Netherlands. I suspect that that is not the end of the list because I do not think I have mentioned the German position.

[Lord Liddle]

My Lords—

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

If I may just finish my sentence. The list builds up a picture of sensible attempts by member states who are enthusiastic supporters of the European Union to make sure that their people are closely involved in the processes wherever there is any transfer of competence or power.

If I must have another interruption, I will take it, but I only plead with your Lordships that we are getting to the point of completely unreasonable interruptions in what I am trying to say.

[Lord Liddle]

I am deeply sorry, but I think that there is a fundamental point to be made here. There is a confusion which should not be allowed to enter this discussion. What the Minister has read out are the constitutional requirements of member states for full treaty ratification, whereas in this set of amendments we are talking about what is required for the simplified revision procedure. It is there precisely to avoid this full rigmarole. Why are we putting this in the treaty?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

It is simply because the simplified revision procedure involves changes in the treaty. In many cases I have described, particularly where the significant test is applied and is not satisfied under paragraphs (i) and (j) in Clause 4, there would not be referenda here or in many other countries. But in other areas, through the simplified revision procedure and part of what we called the passerelle in our impassioned debates on this issue in the House at the time of the Lisbon treaty, it is possible to generate either transfers of competence or transfers of power. These are things on which there would be a natural incentive for the better use of existing powers in order to achieve certain objectives, like better co-operation over civil nuclear power or one of the other things that has been raised. They would also be matters where a real effort would be made by all countries because of the complexity they all face in pushing through treaty changes of any kind; even some quite small changes would trigger elaborate procedures in other countries. There will be a natural and sensible tendency to avoid changes and developments that involve treaty changes.

We simply do not accept that there is an appetite in the European Union for a further round of treaty change, given the arduousness of the ratification process, let alone one that would transfer further power from the UK to the EU. We certainly do not subscribe to the view that the addition of the simplified revision procedure will launch a new culture of regular treaty changes that seek to transfer power on a single issue. That is not the way the system has worked or will work in the future, as those who have been involved in it will know. My last involvement was many decades ago, but I had my share of it back in the 1970s and 1980s. Nations will know that when they come to deal with these issues, they have political capital to spend and they will spend it carefully, not rush into treaty changes at every opportunity. It is highly improbable that all 27 member states will push to agree a treaty change unless it was considered both urgent and important, such as the European financial stability mechanism, which the noble Lord rightly mentioned. But even then, that urgent treaty is expected to take two years—I repeat, two years—to be approved by all member states. The proposition that tiny little treaty changes would somehow be pushed through and promote a referendum here when they take two years for any country to get through is an absurdity.

I know that this is complex but it is a comprehensive approach to the whole question of the transfer of competences and powers. I beg noble Lords to understand that that is the reality of the position. Otherwise, individual issues are bound to be deferred—this is going to be the natural way; it has worked in the past and it will work again—until a whole raft of issues requiring attention can be wrapped up and packaged. That would ensure one treaty change which would cover a multitude of issues and one ratification process and, where relevant, one vote, as was the case with the Lisbon treaty. We recognise the kind of creature that comes along—it is the Lisbon treaty. That is just the sort of amalgamation of small and large issues, some of which under this Bill would certainly require a referendum, that should be and should have been put to a referendum.

We disagree most strongly with the proposition—this House disagreed with it and I think we carried sensible public opinion with us in doing so—that the Lisbon treaty should be somehow brushed aside and not put to a referendum because of the arguments about whether it did or did not parallel the European constitution beforehand. The noble Lord, Lord Tomlinson, said it would not but he remembers, because he was a doughty campaigner in all those Lisbon debates, that there was a very strong sentiment the other way which remains to this day, enlivened and reinforced by the fact that if you actually read the words in the two documents, the constitution and the Lisbon treaty, they turn out over a broad stage, as the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, knows very well, to be identical. We are not fools, and nor are the public when they are told about this matter.

I see that the noble Lord wants to intervene again.

[Lord Grenfell]

I thank the noble Lord for giving way. Could we please try to get this straight once and for all? The constitution prepared by the EU Constitutional Convention was meant to be a constitution. The Lisbon treaty was in fact a series of amendments to two existing treaties, and the novelty of this was that when it was ratified, the Lisbon treaty disappeared into thin air and did not exist any more. It would have been odd to have a referendum on something that did not exist. What we were left with was amended versions of the two original treaties. That is very different from having a full-blown new constitution.

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I will call the noble Lord my noble friend because he is that. He will recall how we went around and around this debate. It is perfectly true that when the Lisbon treaty was brought forward, its drafters had taken care to change the basis so that it could not be packaged or described as a constitution, but there was an awful weight of evidence, supported by the similarity of wording and by many European leaders such as Valéry Giscard d’Estaing. I do not think I am misquoting his words when he said that it was, “identical down to the last comma”. We could argue about that, but let us please not do so again tonight because I seem to remember that we spent many evenings on it. That is the fact of the matter.

In short, including the simplified revision procedure in the scope of the referendum conditions would not unleash frequent trivial referendums. In the same way, we do not accept that there are likely to be regular treaty changes in the future under the ordinary provision procedure. That is one set of reasons why there will be nothing very different from these large treaties coming along on which there is a basic division of view. We say that these things should be put to the British people. Others disagree, including my noble friend sitting further along the Bench. They think that somehow Parliament can continue to be relied upon to be the safeguard to prevent the further ceding of powers and competences. We have considerable doubts about that, and of course the noble Lord, Lord Pearson, has even greater and stronger doubts than the Government.

However, we recognise that the simplified revision procedure has been set up to allow for amendments to specific parts of the treaty to be made in a more streamlined way, which is the point just made by the noble Lord, Lord Liddle. We recognise that on occasion an Article 48(6) decision might be used to agree a change that might involve a small transfer of power but on which it would not be appropriate to hold a referendum. We have therefore gone one stage further and proposed a mechanism to assess whether certain types of transfer of powers under the simplified revision procedure should be put to a referendum. This is known as the significance test, which we will no doubt debate in further groups of amendments. It applies to any decision that falls under the criteria of either Clause 4(1)(i) or (j), both of which I have mentioned.

If the decision is deemed not to have a significant impact, a referendum need not be held, although an Act of Parliament—and this is a considerable addition to what went on in the past—would still need to be passed in all cases before the UK could approve any treaty change. We have built in this mechanism, the scope of which we will return to, to provide a further safeguard to prevent referendums being held on trivial matters. For example—I am asked for examples all the time—a new power under a future use of the simplified revision procedure that compelled Governments to provide annual statistics to the European Commission would not necessarily be considered significant enough to warrant a referendum, but a new power to compel UK businesses to adhere to further regulation might well be deemed significant and might turn up in some package or treaty that we would have to deal with in a better way than we dealt with the Lisbon treaty when that went rushing through.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Kerr of Kinlochard]

I am grateful to the Minister for his considered reply. I strongly agree with his point about public disquiet and concern. Particularly in this House, we underrate the extent to which public opinion has moved against the European Union in recent years. However, the Bill will do absolutely nothing to remedy that concern and disquiet. What we need to do, and this is a responsibility particularly of the Government, is to be out selling in public the truth about the European Union. However, I agree with the analysis that the Minister provided at the outset of his remarks.

He was also quite right to range widely before focusing on my amendment, because, alas, the debate had ranged very widely. I did not realise how many of the captains and the kings would come in and how much Sturm und Drang we would have as we ranged over the battlefield. Quite a lot of the debate was, as the noble Lord, Lord Richard, pointed out, technically a little bit out of order, but it was very interesting.

I have to disappoint one or two noble Lords who spoke in favour of my amendment—and I note that only two spoke against it, none of them from the government Benches. My disappointed comes from the fact that the scope of my amendment is extremely narrow. If the Government were to accept it, and I do not know why they do not, the particular procedures applying to treaty amendments that result from the simplified process would fall away and all treaty amendments would be handled in the same way. I do not know why Clause 3 is needed as well as Clause 2. I was not arguing today that nothing that is done by the simplified procedure should ever justify a referendum—that is my view, but it was not the argument that I was making today. My argument today was that there was no need for Clause 3 and no need anywhere in the Bill for any reference to Article 48(6). We need proper, substantive definitions based on the content of a treaty amendment—what it says, what it does—to decide how significant they are and whether there is a requirement for a referendum. I will probably be somewhere else on the spectrum of that debate from the Minister. You need to address the substance of the treaty amendment, not the process by which the treaty amendment was arrived at.

Clause 2 refers to: “Treaties amending or replacing TEU or TFEU”. The title of Clause 3 is: “Amendment of TFEU under simplified revision procedure”. If Clause 3 vanishes, the only procedure you would have would be that set out in Clause 2, and it would apply to all treaty amendments. I cannot see why the Government do not buy that.

The Minister spent a long time trying to persuade us that you could, under the simplified revision procedure, transfer competences to the European Union, despite the plain wording of Article 48(6) that you cannot transfer competences to the European Union by that root.

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I hesitate to do to the noble Lord what has been done to me for the past two hours—constant interruption—but I did not say that. I was talking about transfers of powers. I conceded the perfectly clear point made by the noble Lord that transfers of competences under Article 48(6) are not possible because they are excluded in the treaty. We are talking about transfers of powers, which is a different matter. I described the kinds of powers and said that, in order to be comprehensive and logical and gain the public confidence, it is our belief that the procedure should cover the transfers of both competences and powers. That is what I said.

[Lord Kerr of Kinlochard]

My Lords, I fear I am still unconvinced. I do not understand these powers. Can we have a definition of powers? What do we mean by powers when we talk about the Bill? Most people seem to think that the powers of the European Union are the powers we have given it. Over there they are called les compétences de l’Union, which is badly translated back into English as competences. This is about powers; the two words mean the same. At least that is my understanding. If we are giving them a different meaning, fine—but let us have a definition.

My bigger point, however, is that this is a technical amendment designed to probe why we need to have a Clause 3—I cannot for the life of me see why—but the Minister did not address that point in his response. I am very grateful to him for considering the debate and responding as he did, but I am unconvinced. Although I am ready to withdraw the amendment today, I shall be back. For the moment, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Libya

Lord Howell of Guildford Excerpts

Friday 1st April 2011 Lords Chamber

Moved By

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

That this House takes note of the current situation in Libya and the Middle East; and United Nations Security Council Resolution 1973.

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford)]

My Lords, in moving this Motion, I had hoped this morning to be able to put before your Lordships a crystal-clear and set-piece perception to illuminate how we see the current crises in the Middle East and developments in Libya so that the combined wisdom of your Lordships in this debate could then illuminate the scene. However, with the extremely fast-changing pace of events and in a world in which, as I reflected this morning, it becomes harder and harder to distinguish in the media between actual hard facts and April fools’ fabrications, I am afraid that it becomes impossible to encapsulate all that is happening, let alone provide a running commentary on all the newspaper headlines this morning, and certainly not in 20 minutes. As for defectors, who make the headlines in every newspaper this morning, I merely repeat what my right honourable friends have made clear—there will be accountability and there is no immunity.

Let me turn from very recent events to the Libya scene, and try to update your Lordships as best I can on the immediate situation. The United Kingdom is playing a key role in the action to implement UN Security Council Resolutions 1970 and 1973, which authorised military action to enforce the arms embargo and put in place a no-fly zone to prevent air attacks on Libyan people and to take all necessary measures to stop attacks on civilians while ruling out, of course, an occupation force.

The Libyan population wants the same rights and freedoms that people across the Middle East and north Africa are demanding and that are enshrined in the values of the United Nations charter. We believe it is incumbent upon all responsible nations to react to these calls and to play their part in taking humanitarian action, safeguarding human rights and promoting democracy in our modern, unstable and dangerous world. That is why the United Kingdom must play its full part in the international efforts to assist the Libyan people.

There is wide support for what we are doing in Libya from the United Nations, the Arab League, the African Union and most of Europe. As President Obama has said:

“Real leadership creates the conditions and coalitions for others to step up as well”.

There can be no doubt that we are doing our full bit, and more than our bit, in carrying out a global duty. I believe that some of the great emerging powers of the 21st century, which may think that they can stand aside from such situations, will come to see, and should be persuaded to see, that their own interests and futures, just as much as ours, are involved in taking swift and responsible action in such crises as the ones now taking place.

There have been 17 nations contributing assets to coalition operations, including nations from the region. More than 340 planes from 14 nations have been involved, and vessels from 11 nations are supporting the arms embargo. On Tuesday, Sweden announced that it would contribute eight fighter aircraft. The NATO Secretary-General has issued a request for further contributions, which we hope other countries will consider seriously and soon.

The case for this action remains utterly compelling. Appalling violence against Libyan citizens continues to take place, exposing the regime’s claims to have ordered ceasefires to be an utter sham. Resolution 1973 lays out very clearly the conditions that must be met, including an immediate ceasefire, a halt to all attacks on civilians and full humanitarian access to those in need. We will continue our efforts until these conditions are fulfilled. The Libyan regime will be judged by its actions, and not by its words. Our action is saving lives and is protecting hundreds of thousands of civilians in Libya; that is what the UN security resolution was for, and that is why we are implementing it. We are taking the utmost care to minimise the risk of civilian casualties. The only forces acting indiscriminately or deliberately inflicting casualties are, of course, the forces of Colonel Gaddafi and his regime.

As evidence of the care we are taking to minimise the risk of civilian casualties, on Wednesday, my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary received a letter from the local council in Misrata thanking Britain and our allies for the targeted strikes and the enforcement of the no-fly zone, which are alleviating pressure on the people of Misrata. His letter stated that the local council can testify to the effectiveness and accuracy of those strikes, and confirmed that there has not been a single case of civilian injury, let alone death, in and around Misrata as a result of coalition activity. This is testament to the skill, experience and precision of our Armed Forces, and I am sure that the whole House will join me in paying strong tribute to them.

[Noble Lords]

Hear, hear.

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

My Lords, on Sunday last, NATO allies decided to take on full responsibility for the implementation of all military aspects of Security Council Resolution 1973, including the civilian protection mission, along with the no-fly zone and arms embargo operations, which were already under NATO command. The transition to full NATO command has now been completed. The North Atlantic Council will provide executive political direction for the military operations. I hope that the whole House will welcome the speed at which NATO has moved to put in place the planning and launch of these three demanding operations.

The situation on the ground remains fluid. Regime forces have intensified their attacks, driving back opposition forces from ground that they had taken in recent days. Misrata remains under heavy attack, with further loss of civilian life—including, sadly, children—from mortars, sniper fire and attacks on all sides from regime tanks and personnel carriers. The Department for International Development has been involved in funding the successful provision of some humanitarian assistance to the city, and we are urgently examining options for the provision of further assistance. One obstacle to humanitarian support for the people of Misrata has been regime vessels trying to blockade the port. Those vessels were attacked by coalition aircraft on Wednesday. Four of them were sunk and one was beached.

On Tuesday, delegations including more than 30 Foreign Ministers, the UN Secretary-General and representatives of the Arab League, the EU and NATO and the Organisation of the Islamic Conference met in London. Our Government went into the conference, organised under the direction of my right honourable friend William Hague with a swiftness and efficiency about which there have been expressions of admiration and amazement, with three objectives, all of which were met. The first was to strengthen and broaden the international coalition committed to implementing Resolutions 1970 and 1973. That was achieved. Many more countries were involved in the conference and supporting our objectives than at the time of the Paris summit 11 days ago. There has been substantial progress during those 11 days.

Secondly, we aimed to focus attention on the delivery of urgent humanitarian assistance to alleviate suffering in Misrata and at Libya's borders, and to plan for the needs of Libya after conflict. The conference agreed priorities for a humanitarian response and welcomed an offer from the UN Secretary-General to lead the co-ordination of humanitarian assistance and planning for longer-term stabilisation. Turkey, other key regional players and the international agencies all offered to support that work and take it forward. Contingency military planning also continues in the EU to enable support for humanitarian operations, if so requested by the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs, as agreed at the European Council last week. It is right that we start planning now to support Libyans over the long term to build a peaceful and prosperous future.

Thirdly, we argued that the conference must agree the need for a political process led by the Libyan people which helps create the conditions in which the people of Libya can choose their own future, supported by the international community. The announcement of a political programme by the Transitional National Council was an important first step in that process. The conference was also attended by the UN Secretary-General's special representative for Libya, Mr Al-Khatib, who travelled to Libya last night.

The conference agreed that Gaddafi has lost all legitimacy and agreed to continue efforts to isolate him and his regime by considering additional sanctions on individuals and companies associated with the regime. We agreed to establish a Libya contact group to take that work forward. The contact group will provide leadership and overall political direction to the international effort to support Libya. It will act as a forum for co-ordinating international policy on Libya and will provide a focal point in the international community for contact with the Libyan parties. Qatar has agreed to convene the first meeting of the group, which we will co-chair. Thereafter, the chairmanship will rotate between the countries of the region and beyond.

The London conference showed that the greater part of the international community of responsible nations is united in its aims, which are to seek a Libya that poses a threat neither to its citizens nor to the region—nor, indeed, to overall global stability—and is working with the people of Libya as they choose their own way forward to a peaceful and stable future. The conference demonstrated clear international support for the people of Libya. With that support, there is every prospect of focused and sustained assistance to the people of Libya as they seek to determine their future.

Setting this in a wider scene, it must be acknowledged that it must be the people of Libya who lead and own the changes in their country, but it is critical to stress that the military, political and humanitarian effort is neither an exclusive British responsibility or action, nor a European one nor even a Western one. It is a global effort with global support. A total of 29 nations are either providing or offering various kinds of support, including military support, allowing overflights, logistical and financial support and humanitarian relief. That includes a diverse range of such countries as the United Arab Emirates, Canada, Belgium, Turkey, Qatar and others. There is also of course the multilateral angle, with support for everyone's aims being expressed by the European Union, the Arab League and the African Union. It is for all responsible nations in the modern world to support action, and we are working hard to ensure that that is the case.

As we know, instability extends far beyond Libya. An unprecedented wave of change is now sweeping across the Arab world, triggering a series of simultaneous crises. Almost every Middle Eastern country has been affected at the same time by demands for greater political openness and democratic freedom. In Yemen, the situation remains very tense, and we have advised evacuation. In Bahrain, there have been violent scenes, although the authorities remain committed to reform and dialogue. I shall not have time to discuss it now, but there is clearly an impact on the Middle East peace process, about which we are all very concerned; although we, indeed, continue to urge that it is also an opportunity to take progress forward in that difficult area.

Each nation involved has a distinct culture, political system and level of economic development. Whatever their futures hold, there will not be a single model or pattern. However, there is clearly a common hunger for justice, accountability, political rights and economic opportunity, given that the overwhelming majority of the demonstrations that we have seen have been peaceful and staged spontaneously by ordinary citizens, motivated and incentivised by the ease of communication in this information age. Our positive message to all Governments in the region is that, without change, popular grievances will not go away. The right to peaceful protest must be respected and responded to with dialogue.

We are asked whether we think that Iran, jihadi extremists or even the al-Qaeda network have been either the instigators or the beneficiaries of this turmoil. That they could exploit the situation if chaos continues is possible, but it is notable that all the protests have been more concerned with democracy and justice than with the dark and violent agenda of al-Qaeda. I have not yet mentioned Syria, but it, too, is facing the new realities of rising popular pressure and demands for better living standards and democracy, driven by increasing contact with neighbouring states.

In Egypt, the Supreme Council of the Armed Forces has stressed its commitment to safeguarding the legitimate demands of the Egyptian people, to overseeing a transition to democracy and to holding free and fair elections. We welcome positive steps on these commitments, including the referendum on constitutional amendments on 19 March. The Supreme Council has also issued on, 30 March, a constitutional declaration which will be important in setting out a temporary constitution until elections have been held and the arrangements of the rest of the transitional period set out. It is important to set a clear timetable for constitutional reform and the holding of parliamentary and presidential elections. We understand that the Supreme Council is inclined to hold parliamentary elections in September, but believe that sufficient time must be allowed for the opposition to coalesce and be ready to take a full part in free and fair elections.

None of this is about imposing western democratic models or prescribing outcomes. We are looking to assist the development of civil society, political parties and the electoral processes through technical advice and by building links between organisations in the great country of Egypt and the United Kingdom.

In Tunisia, a great deal of progress has been made since the dramatic events of January. A new Government have been formed, including opposition parties and independent figures. Media censorship has been removed. Formerly banned parties have been legalised. Political prisoners have been freed and elections for a constituent assembly have been announced for 24 July. No doubt we will be coming back to these issues during the debate. Of course, there is much more to report.

On the wider impact on oil markets, energy supplies, world trade and other matters that concern us all, these are crucial times for the whole global system that underpins world energy security and the smooth flow of world trade. The Middle East region still holds the bulk of world oil reserves and is the world’s major oil source. Fears for oil supplies have come just at the same time as tragic events in Japan have cast a shadow over the longer-term prospects of civil nuclear power as well. Clearly, instability in the Middle East is having an impact on oil markets and prices. Fears have been raised about a substantial rise in oil prices, particularly because of the situation in Libya which is quite a significant oil producer. However, it is worth noting that the Brent crude price is currently around $115 a barrel, which is 21 per cent lower than the high that it hit three years ago in 2008. The average price for this year so far is just over $104 a barrel.

Furthermore, in contrast to the past oil shocks which we all remember, particularly those of the 1980s and 1990s, global spare capacity and stock levels are not at historically stretched levels. There is a clear willingness among large oil producers to make up any shortfall in supply. We give credit to Saudi Arabia and other OPEC members for the reassuring statements that they have made on this issue. We will remain in touch with them both bilaterally and through the International Energy Forum to ensure that oil prices remain as stable as possible.

On the consumer side, the International Energy Agency holds emergency stock of 1.6 billion barrels. The IEA has confirmed that it is always ready to activate its emergency response procedures where necessary, although, since the markets are well supplied, that point is some way off. It is not necessary at the moment. While the trajectory for oil prices is obviously upward, and overall demand for oil will grow in the longer term, especially outside the OECD—that is where all the growth will come—the world is looking for much greater efficiency in oil usage; to new, non-oil, low-carbon technologies; and to a big shift into the low-carbon alternatives, including gas, a fuel which happens, at least at the moment, to be in plentiful supply for various reasons.

We are clear that Libya is in no sense a repeat of Iraq. Our role in Libya is primarily the protection of civilians. The immediate action has the full and unambiguous legal authority of the United Nations. It is backed by Arab countries and by a broad international coalition reaching well beyond the traditional western alliance. The UN resolution makes clear that there will be no foreign occupation of Libya.

However, the strategic context of what we are doing is clear, and needs to be made clear. Power and influence in the new world have shifted. Our necessary strategy as a nation is to reposition the UK in the reconfigured international order now shaping up. While maintaining established links and working to make the Europe Union more effective, we are at the same time establishing strong, new bonds with the emerging powers as well as making use of the amazing Commonwealth network that we have inherited, which today connects our country, and may do so even more tomorrow, with some of the fastest-growing and increasingly powerful nations on the planet.

Events such as the successful London conference this week and our swift and prompt actions in line with the mandate of the United Nations demonstrate that, on behalf of many nations, we are playing a decisive, deeply responsible and creative role, just as we should be doing in this new international scene of challenge, danger and complexity. I beg to move.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

My Lords, I begin by thanking all noble Lords who have spoken and the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, who spoke for the Opposition, for their very positive support for the overall pattern of government policy and for the trend and direction we are seeking to go in. No one is going to claim—I shall not—that there is complete certainty and that we can predict exactly what is going to happen. We cannot. There are risks and twists and turns ahead that none of us can foresee, but the general support is strong, and that is very gratifying. What is even more gratifying for all of us, and it will be gratifying for our Armed Forces, is the praise for the way they are performing, as usual, with efficiency, precision and determination. We have our debates across the Floor about equipment and resourcing generally—they have gone on almost regardless of who is in government—and we are right to be concerned about them, but our Armed Forces are composed of very dedicated, brave and courageous people. There is no question about that. That shows up in moments of crisis.

It is not physically possible for me to address every one of very many fine speeches that have been made this afternoon, so I shall just have to make my peace afterwards with noble Lords I do not mention. I will try to cover as best I can a number of specific questions that have very properly been put to me. I am sure I shall not achieve total satisfaction; in fact, I know I will not. We will just have to do our best and sort things out afterwards.

I shall deal first with the great general questions that have dominated the debate this afternoon. The first and central question is: are we sticking to the resolutions? We have the legal cover of the two resolutions: Resolution 1970 and Resolution 1973. Are we adhering to them? The answer is an emphatic yes. We believe we are in every respect. There were questions about how they should be interpreted and whether they allowed certain developments. I am not going in any particular order, but I come to the very authoritative comments on the resolutions by the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy. I point out to her and to others who are quite properly examining this problem that Resolution 1973 authorises “all necessary measures” to protect civilians,

“notwithstanding paragraph 9 of resolution 1970”.

That is why it is seen as a powerful resolution that fully covers what the allied coalition forces, including HMG’s forces, are doing. That is why there has been a wider debate on how much more it would permit. We must distinguish between legal advice from the expert lawyers on what it would permit and what is actually intended. One of the questions that came up, which my right honourable friend the Prime Minister dealt with, is, “Would it cover the arming of the rebels?”, as opposed to, “Do you intend to arm the rebels?”. As far as the first question is concerned, there is a legal opinion, which may be disputed by other expert lawyers because—surprise, surprise—not all the lawyers agree with each other, that in certain circumstances it would permit the arming of rebels. Is there a policy intention so to do? No, that is not the intention at this stage, but nevertheless there is a resolution standing and that is how it could be interpreted.

The bigger question that has run through the debate is not so much about whether we arm the rebels as who the rebels are. What exactly is their provenance? Are they a mixture of people, are there good and bad among them, and how do we distinguish between them? The answer is that it is not easy. We are maintaining a regular dialogue with the Interim Transitional National Council in Libya. Both my right honourable friends the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary met Mr Jabril, one of the most prominent leaders of the national council, when he visited London earlier this week. We have sent an initial mission to Benghazi which has been successful and plan to follow up with a second mission very soon. We will be exploring the humanitarian reconstruction and development needs as a priority, and we are actively considering what assistance we can provide within the provisions of UNSCR 1970 and 1973. That both answers the question about what we are doing and enables us to establish a channel through which we can assess more clearly the nature and resource of the people operating, whether they are people we would not wish to associate with, and so on. These things cannot be answered in precise terms from the Dispatch Box now or at any point in the near future, but this is what is happening.

Another general question that we have all asked each other during the debate is: what happens next? There is of course the first Libya Contact Group meeting in Doha in a fortnight’s time, which I described in my earlier comments. However, once again, it would be foolish for anyone at this Dispatch Box to claim that they could predict exactly what the course of events on the ground will be. In my opening speech I mentioned that the Gaddafi regime’s forces—including some mercenaries, a point made by one of your Lordships—had very recently made some substantial advances again. But the tide can flow either way and things may look very different in two weeks’ time.

I turn to the important point made repeatedly by the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, and many others: how do we maintain and mobilise this vast coalition of forces—forces which have their origins far outside the old traditional pattern of the western alliance—and how do we keep the momentum going? This is exactly what the contact group will address and increasingly focus on. Clearly, as was said at the London conference on Tuesday, the need is not just for involvement in the immediate problems of preventing civilians being slaughtered in large numbers, which is what the immediate mission is all about, but for mobilising to support Libya with a really cohesive and effective post-conflict strategy. Some people, looking back to the light and shade of the Iraq conflict, would say that that was what was missing in that campaign. A post-conflict strategy was not there and the whole pattern, which was declared wrongly in its first military days as one of total success then spiralled downwards into appalling years of slaughter and bloodshed. That we do not want to see again, ever.

Those are the general themes that emerged in the debate and these are my general answers, always with the necessary qualification that none of us can see exactly how this situation is going to pan out over the next few days or weeks. Our aim is the protection of civilian life and our political strategy has been openly declared by Ministers, by the Arab League and by many countries around the world, which is that the world would be a much better place and Libya would be in a much better situation if Gaddafi and his gang were to go. That is our political strategy which is being backed up by pressures of the financial and trading kind, and all kinds of other pressures which I cannot go into now. That is the pattern of activity as we go forward.

I now come to a range of specific issues that were raised by your Lordships and I will try to address them by name. The noble Baroness, Lady Liddell, made an obviously very learned and well-informed speech. She rightly said that we must be on our guard over the presence of dark forces such as al-Qaeda. As far as Yemen is concerned, she is absolutely right. There is a real al-Qaeda problem in northern Yemen. It is not the only problem in Yemen, which is in a very dangerous situation, as I said in my opening speech. We have advised British nationals, and I would advise all other nationals, to get out as quickly as they can, because if the explosive situation occurs, the first thing that will be closed and inaccessible is the airport. We have been advising for some time all our nationals to get out. But the al-Qaeda danger is there.

That danger may be in other of the countries where there is protest—there are only traces—but it is interesting how, as the noble Lord, Lord Gilbert, was saying, Egypt and Tunis and, as far as we can tell, in the completely different situation in Libya, the jihadist extremist element has been invisible: it has not been there. That is not to say that al-Qaeda strategists—if there are such people—and those who are looking for the opportunity for more murder and mayhem will not be studying the situation and seeing what they can make out of it, but at the moment they have not been playing a leading part. They are not part of the cause of and motivation for what is happening.

The noble Baroness, Lady Liddell, also said that I was a bit sanguine on oil prices. Her judgment may be better than mine, but it is a bold person who predicts oil price movements in the future. It is rather like currency movements: one does not know at all what will happen. Generally, at the moment, it seems that oil markets have not exploded in the way they did in some of the oil shocks of the 1970s, 1980s and 1990s. They have not even risen to the heights of 2008. There are factors, even as the world recovers from recession, that seem to be calming the overall energy markets. Of course, that could change.

How will Qatar go through the mechanism of trading and selling Libyan oil from the Libyan fields under opposition control and use the money for humanitarian support for the opposition forces? That has yet to be worked out and I cannot give the noble Baroness a precise mechanism by which that will be done, but a lot of work is going on at the moment.

My noble friend Lord Trimble and several other noble Lords all raised the question of the EU’s role in all of this. As the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, said, the German abstention had been in his words “a major blow”. The noble Lord, Lord Hannay, referred to that in a well-informed speech. Obviously, this meant that the initial impact of the role of the EU was not as co-ordinated and focused as it should have been. But the EU has collectively and strongly condemned Colonel Gaddafi's policies and person. The noble Lord, Lord Hannay, said that he hoped the EU would rise to the occasion. So do I. It seems to me possible and hopeful that that will happen. The EU Council conclusions welcomed Resolution 1973 and the Council expressed its determination to contribute to its implementation as well. That is where it has got to and maybe it will now develop further thoughts.

We had some debate this afternoon on whether the EU should develop a military dimension. I cannot comment on whether that will happen. For the moment, what we see is that NATO has taken the lead, as the noble Lord, Lord Robertson, rightly said. NATO is in charge; it is the one body that has acted extremely swiftly and effectively. I suspect that will be the way forward with it as the organising force. If there are additional humanitarian roles that the EU can play, those will be very welcome indeed.

My noble friend Lord Bates asked where the African Union featured in the pattern of things. We know that there will be a diverse range of views among African states. That is not surprising; one or two African states were always traditionally supporters of Colonel Gaddafi. He spread a lot of money around in Africa, no doubt in trying to buy other friends as well. However, the African Union has condemned what Colonel Gaddafi’s regime is doing and continues to support our actions in Libya, particularly our objective of protecting civilians and securing an end to the violence perpetrated by the Gaddafi forces. That is the African Union's position and while I cannot guarantee this, I understand that it will be represented at future meetings. We shall be working very hard to see that it is involved.

My noble friend Lord Bates made another interesting point which had not really occurred to me. He said that it was perhaps not right to refer to one possible outcome in Libya—it is not one I hope for—as a civil war, because that would somehow immediately give credibility to the Gaddafi side of it. As he rightly said, this is not a civil war but a very cruel and dangerous dictator inflicting hideous damage on his own citizens. Somehow, a civil war sounds a little more respectable than that, which it is not.

My noble friend also asked about Italy. The Italians have made a significant contribution to the military effort, including surveillance, air defence and ground attack planes as well as maritime assets. As of yesterday, we understand that Italy had 12 aircraft, four ships and one submarine under NATO command for use in Libya. Some air operations have of course been from Italian airbases as well, so the contribution has been substantial. I could go into the longer-term history of Italy's connection and involvement with Libya but that would take much too long. That raises investment and oil production issues but Italy has been active in recognising the need for the sort of action that we are seeking to take.

The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Ripon and Leeds asked about the Middle East peace process, as did a number of your Lordships. We are pushing as hard as we can for the parties to return to negotiations as soon as possible and we are co-ordinating closely with France and Germany as the so-called E3. We have set out our views on what the parameters for negotiations should be: the 1967 borders, with arrangements to protect Israel’s security; preventing the resurgence of terrorism; having a just, fair and agreed solution to the refugee question; and, fulfilling the aspirations of both parties for Jerusalem. We have debated those matters again and again in this House and they are very familiar to us. If we can get some movement on that now, even among the general turmoil of the region, that in our view will be a major step forward.

The noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy, asked in addition about the Ivory Coast, which is not exactly in our brief today but indicates how broad a canvas we are dealing with. The situation in the Côte d'Ivoire is moving fast. We are committed to the crisis being resolved and President Ouattara taking up the office to which he has been democratically elected. The obstruction of the democratic process and associated violence raises broad concerns that affect the global community and democracy in Africa. As the noble Baroness can hear, I am reading out a suggested brief from officials in my department which does not give much information beyond what we knew already, However, from what I have seen for myself in the newspapers the situation in Abidjan is very dangerous and there will obviously great violence before President Gbagbo, who was declared to have been unelected long ago, finally surrenders. If more of his troops desert, that would finally bring him down. Côte d’Ivoire is perhaps an example of the general point that we cannot engage in everything, but that does not rule out our need to focus carefully on certain selected areas. That we are focusing on Libya seems to be entirely right.

Some, such as the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Stamford, have asked whether we should not have the same sort of policy approach towards Bahrain. We argue that that is a completely different position. We have to be selective, use our judgment and accept that in Bahrain there is a different set of issues. We are clear that the Government of Bahrain and their security forces should respect the civil rights of peaceful protesters. We have called for an end to all acts of harassment by the Bahraini security forces. We are in direct contact with the Bahraini authorities and their leaders and have insisted that they show real leadership in promoting tolerance, equal access to justice and the rule of law. They are seeking a reform process and, as the noble Viscount, Lord Slim, urged, we should be very firm in pressing it on them, as indeed we are. However, to compare the situation there with Libya is to make a large jump in logic that is not justified.

[Lord Davies of Stamford]

I entirely agree with the Government about Bahrain. The point that I was making was simply that there are inevitably going to be people misinterpreting the position. Once you get into an active, interventionist foreign policy, people will always try to find areas where we appear to be acting inconsistently and hypocritically.

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

That is a fair point, which I think the noble Lord recognises is a point of argument rather than of policy, and I accept it.

The noble Lord, Lord Stone, comes forward in these debates with marvellously constructive proposals for really making things hum on the ground. He spoke about opening small businesses, retail shops and so on, which are the lifeblood of almost all the economies that we are talking about and without which they will never prosper again. He said that our powerful supermarket chains in this country could help. These are fascinating proposals; I shall take them away and study them as closely as his earlier proposals in a debate that we had a few weeks ago about Palestine.

The noble Lord, Lord Gilbert, wanted to know what the Prime Minister meant on the recognition issue when he said that we recognise countries, not Governments. I would use almost the same words although perhaps I would say that we recognise states, not Governments. I do not see the difficulty that the noble Lord is having over this. States have Governments that are lawful; if there is not a lawful Government or no clear Government, there is no basis for recognition. At the moment we recognise those countries that have a lawful Government. Even if they are in a state of hostility, we still recognise them. I am not too sure that I see the problem. Perhaps he can explain it.

[Lord Gilbert]

The Minister just talked about lawful Governments but he has agreed, as everyone else has done, that Colonel Gaddafi has lost his legitimacy. Does it not follow from this that Gaddafi is not a lawful Government?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

My noble friend Lord Wallace of Saltaire, who is a considerable expert on these finer points, tells me that it is a question of being in control of territory. That is the judgment. In many of these areas there is a neat formula and there is real life, and when it comes to real life one has to use a bit of judgment in assessing who to recognise and who is in charge or control of any Government in any country at any one time. The position is that it is states that we recognise, not Governments.

All the speeches today were good so comparisons are odious, but my noble friend Lord Alderdice put the matter with wonderful clarity when he said that the answer to “What are we doing?” is that we are doing our duty as a responsible nation: policing international law. That is a matter that all nations which want to play in the responsible league and not wash their hands and step aside or be freeloaders have to face as well. On that basis, we shall be seeking more and more coalition co-operation from a wider range of nations, all of whose interests, including ours, are affected by having a potential rogue state, or a state promoting illegal violent acts which destroy other states, in our midst. That is what a rogue Libya could do. It is a big oil state near our own continent of Europe which is very influential in being able to damage trade routes and whose influence could even extend down towards the Gulf of Aden and the Indian Ocean area. This affects everyone’s interests increasingly, in this globalised, integrated trading and energy system on which we all depend.

The noble Lord, Lord Hannay, in a characteristically fine speech, asked the big question about Benghazi and what we have done in the past few days. Could we have stood by? Suppose we had done nothing, and just watched while the Gaddafi troops rode into Benghazi, shot down the women and children, piled up their bodies, and said, “This is the way it is”. The world would once again have allowed a crazed dictator to exert his evil will on innocent people. Of course we could not have done that; of course we had to act, and of course other countries had to act with us. I believe that that case will sink in even to those countries that have stood back from the UN resolution or actually opposed it. However, nobody on the Security Council did that—there were abstentions but no opposition.

As for the defectors who have arrived here and made all the headlines in recent days, including Moussa Koussa, I said at the beginning of the debate that he will not be given immunity. Nevertheless, he is in a way a symptom or evidence of a trend which one feels may be helpful—the desertion of Gaddafi by his immediate gang. How he would hang on and whether he would hang on, whether he would seek peace, are all questions that have been raised and will be debated. If all those around him, one by one, or maybe in twos and threes, desert him, that would, in a sense, be one of the most satisfactory ways of moving out of this dark situation, resulting in the total abandonment by all his advisers of this unpredictable and dangerous man.

Those are my comments on the detailed points raised by your Lordships. In the short term, we will continue to take measures to isolate this man and his regime and to secure their departure. We will continue to support the opposition, to prevent attacks on the civilian population and to prevent humanitarian crises. We will see this through—that is our aim. Our long-term objective is a unified Libya under a central Government who represent the will of the people for more openness and democracy, which is not run by Gaddafi and does not pose external threats either in the region or more broadly.

I tried at the beginning of this debate to place events in a wider strategic context. As your Lordships have echoed and recognised, a wind of change is blowing through the Middle East. Every BBC broadcast that one listens to on waking up brings news of more dramatic developments in countries we have not even mentioned in the debate, such as Kuwait, Jordan and, indeed, Iran. It is the responsibility of civilised nations across the world to react to these calls for change and to play our part in taking humanitarian action, safeguarding human rights and promoting democracy. That is why the United Kingdom will continue to be at the forefront of the international efforts to assist the Libyan people and those across the Middle East more generally.

The pace of change across the world is very fast and unpredictable. If the UK is to prosecute a successful foreign policy in future, one that protects and promotes our interests and our nation, our approach must reflect the reconfigured international order that is now emerging. That means working not only bilaterally, to build new links with both established and emerging powers, but also multilaterally, to make our engagement with multilateral institutions much more effective. The way in which we have responded to the Libya crisis and the wider change in the Middle East that we have discussed today is evidence that we are successfully rising to the current challenges in foreign policy.

Motion agreed.

Inter-parliamentary Scrutiny: EUC Report

Lord Howell of Guildford Excerpts

Thursday 31st March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Liddle]

My Lords, on behalf of the Opposition, I welcome this Motion from the noble Lord, Lord Roper. We support the recommendations for the establishment of an EU Inter-parliamentary Conference on Foreign Affairs and Defence and Security. We have had interesting contributions from my noble friend Lord Davies of Stamford and the noble Lords, Lord Dykes and Lord Jopling.

I could hardly do otherwise than support the committee recommendation, given that I was on the committee when the recommendation was formulated, but it seems to be a wise set of recommendations. As an historian I share in the nostalgia of the noble Lord, Lord Jopling, for the Western European Union, but the WEU was rather a long time dying, if I may put it like that. I first remember this coming up when the noble Lord, Lord Robertson of Port Ellen, was Secretary of State for Defence in 1998. We had a discussion between the Ministry of Defence and No. 10 and the Foreign Office when I was an adviser in No. 10 about folding the WEU into the existing NATO and EU structures. It has been a long time since Britain first put forward that proposal.

The recommendations that we now have are right. We need a body made up of national parliamentarians to maintain some form of parliamentary accountability in the area of EU defence and foreign policy. The EU is a complex hybrid of supranationalism and intergovernmentalism. It has become an even more complex one with the passage of the Lisbon treaty and the setting up of the double-hatted high representative who has both a responsibility in the Commission and is accountable to the Foreign Ministers’ Council. It is very important that, because the intergovernmental nature of these things remains crucial, there is a body made up of national parliaments which can question the high representative. It also seems to me that there is a very strong political case for this type of body. I am sure that the European role in these questions is going to grow greatly in the years ahead in response to the pressures of globalisation and the insistence of the US, as we see in the events in north Africa, that we live up to our responsibilities as Europeans. It is inevitable that Europe’s role will grow, but it is also inevitable that these matters, at least in the first instance, will be handled intergovernmentally, I suspect for quite a period. Therefore, it is very important that such a mechanism as proposed exists.

We support the committee’s recommendations on structure. They seem to provide for an efficient and cost-effective body. We welcome the efforts of the noble Lord, Lord Roper, to achieve consensus on these matters. I would say that the essence of the position should be that, first, this should be an EU-led body. That does not preclude having observers, but the primary focus should be the European Union, and I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Stamford, on that point. Secondly, the primacy within the body of national parliamentarians should be absolutely clear-cut. Thirdly—and here I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Jopling—the meetings should be in Brussels, because that is where we are most likely to get engagement with the key people. There should not be some fancy gallivanting off to the Azores, or elsewhere. Fourthly, because the meetings should be in Brussels, I think one has to be careful about how many Members of the European Parliament one tolerates within this new institution. I spent a lot of time rather enjoyably in the convention that was set up to discuss the EU constitutional treaty. It was a great innovation in that convention that there were representatives of national parliaments there, but they got rather quickly overwhelmed by the Brussels bubble. You have to watch that something that meets in Brussels does not become dominated by those who are based in Brussels.

Those are the principles on which I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Roper, will represent us in the meetings next week. We support this recommendation. This new body should be more than mere tokenism; we want it to be effective and serious. We hope that he will be able to come up with a consensus that meets our concerns.

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford)]

My Lords, I join in the congratulations to the noble Lord, Lord Roper, on both bringing forward this Motion and for presiding over this excellent report and, indeed, if I may say so more widely, for the way that he administers his very influential and effective duties in the EU Committee structure, which are of enormous benefit not only to this House but to general debate on the pattern and development of all European Union affairs.

I also find myself ready to endorse almost everything that the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, said. He rightly emphasised the intergovernmental nature and how crucial it was that it should be preserved in this vital area. The only point where things slightly jarred was when he mentioned his work on the constitutional treaty. A shadow passed through my memory as I recalled that unhappy episode that, alas, did not lead to fruitful results. For the rest, the noble Lord has rightly endorsed some sensible proposals.

The Government attach significant importance to the issue of parliamentary scrutiny of the EU’s common security and defence policy and want to ensure that the cross-European parliamentary debate on European defence issues, performed currently—and for the next few months—by the WEU Assembly, continues. Inter-parliamentary discussion serves to enhance and enlighten the national scrutiny work of Parliaments and complements the breadth of knowledge that already exists in this House. This can only be a good thing; I am unambiguous about that.

Let me be clear to your Lordships about the Government’s role in this process. In March last year, Governments decided to close up the Western European Union, the bulk of its functions having already transferred to the European Union. I share my noble friend Lord Jopling’s tinge of nostalgia, since it seems to me that the WEU was part of our lives in at least the last three or four decades of the previous century. Many of us regard it as a familiar part of the European Union landscape, but times pass and the decision to close it up has been taken.

In doing so, we recognised the value of the continuing inter-parliamentary debate on European defence and security so, to ensure that a future forum could be established to facilitate that, we have worked to help discussion with interested parliamentarians on how this might be taken forward. During those discussions, we set out the Government's preferences for such a body, but it is obviously for national European parliamentarians to decide the form that future scrutiny arrangements should take. It is certainly not for the Government to dictate the terms; that would be quite wrong.

The Government's priorities in this process are clear. First, we believe in the primacy of national parliamentary scrutiny of the EU’s common foreign security policy. That reflects the policy’s intergovernmental nature, which we have all emphasised, and within it, the common security and defence policy. These are intergovernmental matters and, given the role played by national parliaments, there is no need for any new arrangements to involve expanding the European Parliament’s competence to scrutinise CFSP. While the European Parliament has a role, as is recognised in the report, we believe that an inter-parliamentary body better reflects the intergovernmental nature of CFSP.

Secondly, we believe that any new arrangements should be better suited to supporting and informing the national security process. They should capitalise on the expertise of relevant parliamentarians in this policy area and allow for a free and open exchange of information among European states.

Thirdly, new arrangements need to demonstrate value for money to the taxpayer, as many of your Lordships have emphasised. Given the current financial pressures facing Europe and all its member states, we support the proposal in the EU Committee report that any future mechanism for inter-parliamentary dialogue on CSDP should operate with the minimum possible cost and bureaucracy. The UK’s current annual subscription to the WEU is €2.3 million. While the WEU Assembly played a useful role in engaging views from across Europe, we and other WEU council members believe that this inter-parliamentary debating function can be delivered much more efficiently outside the WEU structures. The new body, as envisaged in the EU Committee report, will operate at a fraction of the current cost and, more appropriately, will be paid for by national parliaments, not Governments.

The Government believe that the new arrangements should include third states outside the 27 members of the European Union, as the noble Lord, Lord Jopling, and others have referred to. One of the major strengths of the CSDP is its ability to draw support from outside the EU. The report acknowledges that. We welcome that it extends a standing invitation to EU candidate countries, of which there are five at the moment—including, as the noble Lord, Lord Roper, says, the important candidate country of Turkey—but we remain convinced that non-EU European NATO members such as Norway should also receive a standing invitation. European defence policy and NATO share common political and security interests. Norway in particular has provided valuable contributions to EU operations and is currently an associate member of the WEU. We can see no reason why its inclusion in future arrangements should be anything other than permanent, and we hope that the decision that the noble Lord mentioned will go forward. We ask: why slam down the door so dismissively on good friends and a valuable contributor to European defence?

In this policy area we see a real value in inter-parliamentary collective debate that informs the national security process of EU member states. The European Union Committee report is an important and valuable step towards developing practical, low-cost and inclusive arrangements that will benefit parliamentarians across Europe, and I urge your Lordships’ House to back it fully.

Afghanistan: Women’s Shelters

Lord Howell of Guildford Excerpts

Wednesday 30th March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hussein-Ece]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what representations they have made to the Government of Afghanistan about recent proposals to take control of women’s shelters.

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford)]

My Lords, working with the United Nations, international partners, the Ministries of Justice and Women's Affairs in Kabul and Afghan civil society, we have reviewed the Afghan Government’s draft regulation on these centres and submitted our comments and concerns to the Afghan Government. We continue to monitor this issue closely.

[Baroness Hussein-Ece]

I thank my noble friend the Minister for that reply. Does he agree with me that the shocking case of 18 year-old Bibi Aisha, featured on the cover of Time magazine, who had her nose and ears cut off after fleeing abusive family members, shocked the world and underlined the importance of independent women’s shelters in Afghanistan? Is he aware that President Karzai presides over a country where 87 per cent of Afghan women are illiterate and one in three Afghan women experience physical or sexual violence? Given the high financial and human cost of the war in Afghanistan, how can we in the West believe that Afghanistan really is a democracy and that things are getting better for Afghan women?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

My noble friend is absolutely right to highlight the appalling conditions, the tragedies and the atrocities which are inflicted on many women in Afghanistan. Her Question was about women’s shelters, which were set up some years ago and were, basically, a very good idea, but recently there has been controversy because it appeared that the Afghan Government were seeking to control them in rather draconian ways. Some very brave women raised their voices firmly in saying that this was not the right way forward. I can tell my noble friend that the Afghan Ministry for Justice, following representations from many NGOs and many Governments, including this one, are working on a redraft of the regulations and are planning not to take over the shelters but to improve them. That must be a small step forward in a potentially hideous situation.

[Baroness Flather]

My Lords, I am sure you are all aware of the awful conditions which prevailed for women during the previous period. Many of them killed themselves because they could not go out to find money to feed their children. What worries me is that I am not sure that things have improved a great deal. I hope that the Government are putting some other matters together to make sure that the situation of Afghan women is getting better, that they are able to earn money and that they are able to feed their children. I am referring not so much to the married women as to the single women, who are the ones who suffer most.

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

Yes, that is absolutely correct. I think there are some small signs that one or two things are getting better, but there is a long way to go, as my noble friend on this side has just observed. The conditions for many younger women are appalling. An estimated 70 per cent of all marriages are still forced and half of all young married girls are under 15, which opens the way for victimisation and violence on an appalling scale. It is slightly improving, as the Government are under constant pressure to observe human rights standards and have committed themselves to the United Nations undertakings. There are efforts and we are going slowly forward, but it is still a very ugly situation.

[Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean]

My Lords, will the Minister publish the paper giving the comments and concerns that he said in his initial Answer had been the Government’s response? It would help the whole House if he were able to do that. Can he tell us what resources are available to our embassy in Kabul to make contact with women and help to develop women’s role in civil society in Afghanistan?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

Resources are available. Our officials in Kabul are involved in regular meetings and there is one going on now to see whether the women’s shelter idea can be taken forward. That is a valuable input and we will continue to do more than monitor the situation by pressing for the right solution for women’s shelters and for protection of women generally. As for the publication of detailed pressures and exchanges, I will look at that, but sometimes the full publication of these exchanges undermines the degree of trust and confidence one needs to make progress. It may not work, but I will certainly look at it.

[Baroness Falkner of Margravine]

My Lords, given the gravity of the situation and the fact that Afghan women’s rights are likely to be eroded with further conversations about the Taliban coming back into government, does my noble friend agree with the suggestion of the noble Baroness, Lady Symons of Vernham Dean, some months ago that the UK Government should appoint an individual, or at least get the EU to appoint an individual, to go and look at the status of women’s rights in Afghanistan and to come back and continue to keep a watching brief on that until the transition is complete?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

Again, that may be an idea, but a lot is going on already, as I think my noble friend is well aware. A number of countries and non- governmental organisations and a number of extremely brave and prominent women in the cause of women—Women for Women in Afghanistan, the Afghan Women’s Movement and many others—are all conducting what my noble friend calls a watching brief. If, on top of that, the appointment of an individual would help, I would consider it, but I suspect that the problem is not so much personnel watching and monitoring as getting pressure on the Government, on officials and on the culture of the country to overcome the horrors left behind by the Taliban attitudes to women, which were appalling.

Saudi Arabia: Human Rights

Lord Howell of Guildford Excerpts

Wednesday 30th March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmed]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their assessment of the political and human rights situation in Saudi Arabia.

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford)]

My Lords, following events elsewhere in the region, there have been a few very limited protests in Saudi Arabia. However, the Government have brought in a reform process and a national dialogue initiative to keep pace with the people’s wishes. We have serious concerns about the human rights situation in Saudi Arabia. We have made our views well known, including through the universal periodic review process, and we make those concerns clear to the Saudis at the highest levels, just as they are frank with us on issues that concern them.

[Lord Ahmed]

I thank the Minister for his reply. Is he aware that thousands of detainees are held in Saudi prisons, without any charge, trial or representation—some for more than seven years, and a few for more than 13 years? The Minister will be aware of the recent concerns of Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International in relation to the arrests of peaceful demonstrators and the use of force against them. What is the position of Her Majesty's Government regarding arms and security sales, given recent events in Saudi Arabia and Bahrain? Will the Government review arms and security exports to Saudi Arabia until they are clear that UK equipment is not being used for internal repression?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

All questions on arms exports are under review, as the noble Lord may know, and we have grave concerns about the use of crowd-control equipment. Because of those concerns, a review of the whole policy and practice of Her Majesty's Government on the export of equipment that could be used for internal repression—in particular, crowd-control goods—has been commissioned and is under way. As to the noble Lord’s question on Bahrain, the Saudi forces are there to protect installations—or so it is reported to me. That may not be 100 per cent accurate, but that is the intention. The Saudis share the same goals as the Government of Bahrain, which are, of course, to have a dialogue on reform and to address the concerns of the Bahraini people. That is very different from some other countries in the region. However, it is a tricky situation that we are watching very closely.

[Baroness Falkner of Margravine]

My Lords, my noble friend will no doubt be aware that the Saudi rulers have requested their clergy to issue a fatwa, stating that all democratic peaceful protests are un-Islamic. Does he agree that turning democracy into a religious issue sends a message to 1.5 billion Muslims that democracy is not an option open to them if they wish to adhere to their religion? Does he think that Saudi Arabia, given that attitude towards freedom, can any longer be trusted to pursue peace and stability in the Middle East?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

Of course, as the noble Baroness recognises, there are attitudes that we do not like and seem to go against our values and views of how democracy should work. We do not miss any opportunity—in fact we take all opportunities—to put these matters frankly to the Saudi authorities and to other countries. One has to think in positive terms; the aim is to make progress by establishing trust, rather than by dismissing the efforts of certain countries and saying that they no longer qualify to operate or to make a sensible and responsible contribution to world affairs. The positive approach is the one that pays off in the end. While I recognise many of the worries that my noble friend articulates, I believe that the approach I am describing is the best one.

[Lord Soley]

In those discussions, how much emphasis has been placed on access to forms of justice in Saudi Arabia, and on the promotion of the rule of law?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I am sorry, but I did not hear the first part of the noble Lord’s question.

[Lord Soley]

In the discussions with Saudi Arabia to which the Minister referred, how much emphasis is put on access to justice for the people of that country and on promotion of the rule of law?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

These are our values and these are the points that we put to the fore in our ongoing dialogue with the Saudi authorities. Because of certain relationships of trust and our close alliance, we are in a position to put those matters forward and get a hearing for them. I cannot measure precisely the amount of emphasis, but these issues are very much to the fore in all our dialogues.

[Lord Avebury]

My Lords, while it is true that Saudi troops have entered Bahrain simply to guard installations, does that not mean that the forces under the control of the Bahraini authorities are released from those duties and can engage in further internal repression?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

When I mentioned that a moment ago, I did say that this was reported to me. I do not know whether it is 100 per cent accurate. However, I would slightly query the logic of my noble friend’s statement that this action releases Bahraini troops to indulge in internal repression. Bahraini troops may well have made some bad moves, which we ought to condemn strongly, but the overall strategy of the Bahraini authorities and the king is to establish a dialogue and address the grievances of the people. That is in total contrast to the pattern that we see, for instance, in Libya.

[Lord Clinton-Davis]

How can we support Saudi Arabia’s intervention in Libya when it has such difficulty with basic human rights? Are they not very important? The reaction of the Saudi Arabians is very little improved as far as that is concerned.

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

It is very hard to generalise. There are reformers in Saudi Arabia who are anxious to take the country forward. There are also very reactionary people who are trying to stop them. It is the reformers whom we need to identify and support. If we do, we may be able to make progress, as, ironically, was being made in Bahrain, which was one of the few countries that had quite lively democratic elections.

[Baroness Corston]

My Lords—

European Union Bill

Lord Howell of Guildford Excerpts

Wednesday 30th March 2011 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

That it be an instruction to the Committee of the Whole House to which the European Union Bill has been committed that they consider the Bill in the following order:

Clauses 1 to 6, Schedule 1, Clauses 7 to 17, Schedule 2, Clauses 18 to 22.

[Lord Tomlinson]

My Lords, I raise one small point on this matter. So far on this Bill we have had Second Reading. We have also had the allocated dates for the first and second days of Committee. The date of Second Reading was 23 March and the dates for Committee will be 5 April and 26 April. The one thing that these dates have in common is that they are all Tuesdays and therefore clash with the meeting of the European Union Select Committee of this House. It strikes me as rather absurd that we should discuss the European Union Bill on all three days when it clashes with your Lordships’ European Union Select Committee. I raise no objection to this Motion, but I ask the Leader of the House whether he can look at this and make sure that we do not downgrade the work of the Select Committees in the way that these arrangements do.

Yemen

Lord Howell of Guildford Excerpts

Tuesday 29th March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Chidgey]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their assessment of the current security situation in Yemen; and what steps they are taking to protect British residents and officials.

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford)]

My Lords, the security situation in Yemen is tense. There is political deadlock, there are violent protests and there is an already high risk of terrorist attack. As my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary said on 24 March, the Foreign and Commonwealth Office advised all British nationals to leave Yemen immediately on 12 March. Since then, the situation has continued to deteriorate. We have detailed contingency plans but British nationals should leave Yemen now by the commercial airlines still flying.

[Lord Chidgey]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that reply. Is there not also a real danger of Yemen descending into chaos, with the vacuum being filled by the al-Qaeda terrorism in that country combining with counterparts in Somalia across the Gulf of Aden, so putting the 40 per cent of the West’s oil that passes through there at great risk? Do the Government have any plans to help to address the underlying problems in Yemen, which come from poverty and hunger? Forty per cent of people there live on less than $2 a day. Have we any plans to assist with the provision of food aid, as something like $225 million of food aid is needed this year alone to stave off starvation?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

My noble friend is quite right to point to a number of very worrying dangers, including piracy and terrorism. We are in fact one of the largest donors to that very impoverished country and we are obviously concerned about how the political process should proceed. We hope that transition will be in a peaceful way and without too much bloodshed, but it is really for the people of Yemen and their present president to decide how that transition should go. As for outside support, rather than outside intervention, we think that the neighbouring countries are probably the best people to rally round and provide it. That may be working through the organisation Friends of Yemen, of which we are one.

[Lord Clinton-Davis]

How many people does the Foreign Office have in mind and how many, in particular, are employed at the embassy in Yemen?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

On the noble Lord’s second point, at the moment we have 10 still there. The noble Lord is quite right to raise the subject because it is an extremely dangerous designation. There have been two life-threatening attacks on the British ambassador in the past year. I assure the noble Lord and the House that we have the most careful and detailed contingency plans for getting those people out safely, but it is a very dangerous situation. I do not have to hand the precise overall number of British nationals. It is not very many but I will provide him with the precise details if we can ascertain them, which is not easy.

[Lord Avebury]

Does my noble friend agree that with the defection of Major-General Ali Mohsen and other senior military commanders, the sooner that President Saleh steps aside and allows a transition to democratic government, the less blood will be shed? Does he also think that the United Nations might perform a useful role as the broker of such a transitional arrangement, bringing the military and the opposition movements into a common Government to aim at that transition to democracy?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

My noble friend is right that that defection is significant. Those are influential people and that might help the move towards a peaceful resolution and a final decision by President Saleh on how and in what manner he goes in an orderly way. Concerning the UN, it has not recently played a significant role in Yemen. In most people’s view, the responsibility really lies with President Saleh openly to engage with all parties in a sustained and credible fashion. As I said earlier, we think the best kind of outside support should come from the countries immediately around, which are obviously as concerned as us about developments there.

[Lord Anderson of Swansea]

Does the Minister agree that it is difficult to avoid seeing any change in the administration as a potential threat to western interests? What is his assessment of the role of al-Qaeda among the many other causes—secessionist, tribal and so on—of the unrest? If there were to be an implosion, what is his assessment of the danger of the unrest moving across the frontiers to other countries?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

Of course, as the noble Lord knows, these dangers are there all the time; there is no doubt about that. The al-Qaeda threat is there but is not the only threat. Al-Qaeda is most active in the north. Many of its members are being pushed over the frontier from Saudi Arabia. They are a problem and no doubt they are thinking of ways of exploiting any trouble or disturbance they can find. That is why it is essential that the president and the people of Yemen move away from the threats of violence and towards an orderly pattern of transition which they can decide for themselves.

[Lord Dykes]

I thank my noble friend for the care with which the British Government, other European Governments and America have handled these difficult situations with Arab countries. Bearing in mind that the evidence is now massively overwhelming that Arab populations want freedom, democracy and human rights, as in other countries—we have been told for decades that they did not want this and did not mind oppressive regimes—will my noble friend consider the British Government having some serious conversations with the Saudi Arabian Government to get rid of that oppressive regime and introduce some democracy there, including allowing women to drive cars?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

These are all very serious social problems but I think my noble friend would agree that if there is to be change, the aim must be to achieve the most peaceful and bloodshed-free transition. That is what we want. Obviously, we are in talks with all our opposite numbers in the Arab world and in the Gulf countries, including Saudi Arabia, as my noble friend suggests. These matters have to be dealt with and we raise them, but if we can make progress in a peaceful, orderly way, that must be the best way forward.

[Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean]

My Lords, I am sure we all agree with the Minister that the most successful outcome is one that involves a peaceful and orderly transition. However, in the Government’s view, is that most likely to be attained through President Saleh stepping aside very soon or through his engaging in the sort of dialogue with dissidents elsewhere in Yemen that the Minister described a moment ago? The noble Lord talked about the support of neighbours. What support does he have in mind that Yemen’s neighbours might give? Might it be troops on the one hand or direct aid on the other?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

President Saleh has already said that he will step down—we all know that—but it is a question of the timing and, no doubt, the question of to whom power should then transfer. These are obviously very sensitive and delicate questions inside Yemen. Sensible people, supporters and friends of the country and its people want to see the president step down as quickly as possible but in an orderly way. As to outside support, aside from the substantial aid which countries such as our own give to Yemen, the Friends of Yemen group has said that it is very ready to support training and to offer social support, all kinds of social programmes and a variety of other support. It has made clear that that is what it wants to see. However, I am afraid that it is from within Yemen—this is often the case in other Arab countries—that the movement has to come for an orderly transition of power, which is about to take place.

[The Lord Bishop of Ripon and Leeds]

My Lords, in that context, what is the Minister’s assessment of the danger of the protest movement in Yemen being taken over by people who are now opposed to President Saleh but whose record in conflict, particularly with the northern Houthis, is no more democratic than his is?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

The danger is quite high. There is a danger of all kinds of elements, including the al-Qaeda franchise, other jihadists and the rebel groups that have been present for many years—there is nothing new in some of the matters that we are discussing—taking over and replacing the present unsatisfactory pattern with something equally unsatisfactory. We have to be realistic about this. All the progress throughout the Arab world will not automatically lead to a new dawn of liberal democracy, much as we hope it will.

[Lord West of Spithead]

My Lords, have the Government assessed whether al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula within Yemen and al-Qaeda more widely have been caught out by this huge change across what I think Glubb Pasha called the “hinge of the world” from Tunisia through to Oman? It seems to me that they might have been and that, if we are quick on our feet, there is a real opportunity to use this to our advantage. I should be interested to hear the Minister’s thoughts on that.

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

When the situation is so fluid, it is very difficult to make these assessments, and I suspect that they vary vastly from country to country. We are talking here about the Yemen. Al-Qaeda is not the only threat to Yemen’s present stability; all kinds of different tribal gatherings and pressures are undermining the situation. It could be that al-Qaeda has not been at the forefront of many of these uprisings, protests and rebellions. On the other hand, we must have no illusions but that, where it sees trouble, it will seize every opportunity to intensify it and make it worse. As to our opportunity in this area, we have to move in a very agile and clever way, making sure that we combine the support of the western world and the whole comity of responsible nations in trying to encourage a sensible transition to democracy and a move away from all forms of extremism.

Arms Trade

Lord Howell of Guildford Excerpts

Tuesday 22nd March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Judd]

My Lords, I remind the House that I am a trustee of Saferworld, a charity working in security sector reform.

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford)]

My Lords, the United Kingdom continues to take a leading role in negotiations for an arms trade treaty and actively participated in the recent UN arms trade treaty preparatory committee meeting. It is important for us to learn lessons from recent events. On 16 March, my right honourable friend the Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary announced a review of the sale to Middle East countries of weapons that could be used for internal repression.

[Lord Judd]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that reply and underline that the British delegation played a lead role in the discussions in New York last week. Does the noble Lord not agree that, while significant progress was made in the realm of conventional weapons, equipment and ammunition, there is still a glaring gap in the area of police equipment and internal security equipment? What arrangements are the Government making to address this key issue, which has obviously become very significant in the context of recent events?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

My Lords, the noble Lord is absolutely right that we are making progress, but that there are still some gaps. The next preparatory meeting is in July, when we will address these issues closely. It is of course our broader aim to see smaller weapons more effectively included and embraced in the arms trade treaty, including the categories that the noble Lord mentioned. These are matters to which we are giving close attention.

[Baroness Falkner of Margravine]

My Lords, I pay tribute to those on the opposition Benches for the work they started in 2005 to bring about a comprehensive arms control treaty. We must be grateful to them for the lead that the United Kingdom has taken in this area. Would my noble friend explain to the House why the Government are resisting the very modest measure of the noble Lord, Lord Alton of Liverpool, in his attempts to bring through a re-export arms control treaty? That would surely be in the spirit of what we are trying to do at the UN level.

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

My Lords, my noble friend will remember that we had an exchange on precisely this matter the other day when my noble friend Lord Green, the Trade Minister, answered precisely this Question. He pointed out that we could bring in many laws in this country but, as we would have no control whatever over the actual movements of re-exported equipment, our laws would be in vain. It would not be the right approach. The much stronger approach is to continue to apply the very high standards, the very strict controls and the very rigorous criteria—some of the most rigorous in the world—which we apply to all exports of military equipment and items of concern.

[The Lord Bishop of Exeter]

My Lords, many of us on this Bench have warmly supported the leadership role of Her Majesty's Government in pressing for an arms trade treaty, which the noble Lord has just reiterated. However, we share the concern of others that that role has recently been put into question by recent trade visits to the Middle East. What steps are Her Majesty's Government taking or planning to take to ensure that their support of British arms exports does not undermine the moral and political leadership that the UK needs to show if the United Nations is to secure an arms trade treaty in 2012?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I appreciate the right reverend Prelate’s concern, but we do not see these matters as influencing each other in any undesirable way at all. On the contrary, we see as one task the application of our very strict controls for exports of armaments and the need for friendly and responsible countries to equip themselves in a responsible way rather than resorting to the much lower standards and greater dangers in participating in many of the other arms trades going on around the world, and we see promoting the commercial interests of this country in all responsible areas and ways as quite a separate issue. We do not really elide the two concepts as some people in the media and commentators have done.

[Lord Harries of Pentregarth]

The Minister mentions that we have one of the most rigorous control systems in the world for arms exports. Nevertheless, between 2008 and 2010, 198 export licences for arms were given to Indonesia, where there is a low-scale civil war in West Papua and the basic human rights of the indigenous people are being denied. Is he happy about those arms export licences?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

One can never say, speaking in general terms, that one is happy. Perhaps a year or two ago, many people in this House would have been happy with the number of licences going to Libya, but it turns out that a great many of these—I think 118 of them—have been revoked, and rightly so. All licences for weapons of any kind of concern for Libya have been revoked. In the case of Indonesia, the process of rigorous control is there. We watch it all the time, and we will monitor it. These things are regularly revisited, and one hopes that any doubts about any weakness in the application of criteria will be strengthened. So I cannot say that one is happy or unhappy, but we are applying the best possible filter and controls, possibly by world standards, that are available to ensure that weapons are not misused, or used for repression in horrible ways.

[Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean]

My Lords, I refer to the question which the noble Baroness, Lady Falkner of Margravine, asked about re-exports. This has been a very vexed question, and I know that we have discussed it before in your Lordships' House, but the issue here is whether the use of end-user certificates would be of any real value. In my time as a Minister, we discussed end-user certificates and there was a good deal of international support to ensure that those buying arms from this country were prepared to say something about their eventual re-export. Can the Minister say whether that will be a subject for negotiations next year?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

Yes, I believe it would. That is a sensible approach. It could be more effective, although there are always dangers and difficulties, than merely passing laws here that we hope others will observe. I think the noble Baroness’s suggestion is the right one.