Court of Justice of the European Union

Lord Howell of Guildford Excerpts

Monday 23rd July 2012 Lords Chamber

Moved By

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

That this House takes note of draft regulation 2011/0901A (COD) of the European Parliament and of the Council (amending the Protocol on the Statute of the Court of Justice of the European Union and annexe 1 thereto) and draft regulation 2011/0902 (COD) (relating to temporary judges of the European Union Civil Service Tribunal) and, in accordance with Section 10 of the European Union Act 2011, approves Her Majesty’s Government’s intention to support the adoption of draft regulations 2011/0901A (COD) and 2011/0902 (COD) of the European Parliament and of the Council.

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford)]

My Lords, the debate this evening covers two draft regulations which make modest and technical reforms to the workings of the Court of Justice of the European Union with the aim of improving its overall efficiency. This is the first time that this House has had a debate of this kind, so I shall briefly rehearse and remind noble Lords why we are having this debate.

The draft regulations are subject to Section 10(1)(d) and (e) of the European Union Act 2011. The Act, through Section 10, which covers a small number of important articles in the EU treaties, provides an extra level of parliamentary control over certain decisions. It requires a positive vote in both Houses of Parliament on a Motion from a Minister before the United Kingdom can support a decision in the Council. Section 10 is therefore fulfilling the function for which it was conceived: increasing democratic oversight of the Government’s relationship with the European Union, and giving Parliament control over issues that matter to Britain.

As noble Lords acknowledged the last time we debated reform of the Court of Justice of the European Union in this House, the Court plays a crucial role in ensuring that EU law is observed. It is right and proper therefore that Parliament should oversee the Government’s approach to any reforms to this important institution, even though the reforms that we are discussing today are relatively minor. Why are we in favour of these reforms? A key function of the Court of Justice of the EU is to interpret and enforce EU law relating to the single market. The European Union single market is a key element in the Government’s priority of boosting economic growth and achieving prosperity for our nation. As long as there is a single market, the Court of Justice of the EU is needed to enforce the EU law which governs it. As noble Lords are aware, the Court of Justice of the European Union comprises three courts: the Court of Justice, the General Court and the Civil Service Tribunal. Most of the reforms in the package that we are debating this evening are to the Court of Justice, which is the upper court, and the Civil Service Tribunal, which is the employment tribunal for EU officials.

Your Lordships’ European Union Committee set out in its excellent report of March last year that the workload of the Court of Justice has grown substantially in recent years. New cases increased by 18% in total between 2007 and 2011. While the Court has managed that workload effectively to date, the European Union Committee has rightly questioned whether this can continue. It stated in its report that,

“the expansion of the CJ’s jurisdiction into the Area of Freedom, Security and Justice introduced by the Lisbon Treaty, coupled with the increase of EU membership to 27 States, will have an impact on the CJ’s ability to manage its workload”.

It therefore makes sense in our view to act now to reform the court so that it is better equipped to manage its increasing workload. Many of the reforms that we are discussing today, which I will set out now, work towards this aim. Coming to the detail, there are three main reforms to the Court of Justice. First, the new position of vice-president will be created and appointed from among existing judges, to assist the president of the Court in managing litigation, overseeing the business of the Court and representing it externally. Secondly, there will be an increase in the number of judges sitting in the grand chamber of the Court of Justice, which generally handles the Court’s most sensitive cases. Thirdly, there will be a reduction in the number of presidents of five-judge chambers who have to sit in the grand chamber at the same time.

The package of reforms that we are discussing also affect the Civil Service Tribunal—the employment tribunal for EU officials, as I have already said. The reforms include the power to appoint up to three temporary judges to the tribunal if permanent judges are absent for more than three months for medical reasons. Finally, there is one key reform to the lower court—the General Court. As will be the case with the Court of Justice, a new vice-president position will be created. I could go into much more detail on these issues and will be very happy to do so, but they are already on the record, having been debated in the other place, and I suspect are fully familiar to your Lordships who are attending the debate this evening.

Let me say a word on other reforms and next steps because this is important. We are looking at part of a process and not the final pattern. The Government have been active in negotiating the detail of these reforms, which were proposed by the Court of Justice of the European Union itself. One potential reform about which we had particular concerns has been removed from consideration, and a further reform continues to be considered separately. Let me elaborate on that. The Government did not support the original proposal to remove the 10-day period of grace that litigants are granted for submitting pleadings to the Court of Justice on top of the standard deadline period. We argued that removing the period of grace would damage our national interest by limiting the time available to us to submit pleadings. By retaining it, we have ensured that both the Government and British businesses have the maximum possible time to submit pleadings to the court.

The other reform proposed by the Court, notable in its absence today, was the addition of 12 further judges to the General Court. This reform was proposed to address the substantial backlog of cases, which are currently more than 1,300. My noble friend Lord Bowness, who has played such an active and creative part in this whole issue, explained the reason for the large workload that led to this backlog during our previous debate on this subject. The delay resulting from this backlog of cases is bad for British businesses, which wait months or years for their own case or cases of relevance to them to be heard and determined. We all know from your Lordships’ European Union Committee report, to which the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, referred last time we discussed the Court, that the Confederation of British Industry has expressed its concerns about the implications of these delays. It is essential that the reforms to the General Court address the backlog effectively. This means studying the cause of the problem and the viability of different solutions.

We welcome the establishment of the new group of European member states aiming to specifically consider the broader issue of effective reform to the General Court—the so-called friends of presidency group, which is due to report in December of this year. The Government will actively participate in that group. The detailed work of your Lordships in preparing their report on this subject will be a valuable contribution to discussions.

The questions of increasing the size of the judiciary of that Court, and of how any new judges should be selected and appointed, will be considered in this context. Any increase in the number of judges should be consistent with the requirement for minimal spending in the current economic climate, and should go hand in hand with other efficiencies.

I would like to underline how seriously the Government take this issue and make it clear that we will be working actively over the coming months to try to find an effective solution. We accept that at present the reforms on the table are modest, and it is right that we continue to encourage member states to find a sustainable solution to the wider problems. However, it is clear that these reforms will support the Government’s objective of improving the efficiency of the Court of Justice of the European Union. They will also potentially pave the way for more substantive reform to the General Court at a later stage, when value-for-money considerations can be taken into account. This is obviously important, because a more effective and efficient Court will be good for British businesses operating in the single market. I therefore commend this Motion to the House.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

My Lords, I join others in thanking all noble Lords who have participated in this debate on the Court of Justice of the European Union. As I mentioned at the beginning, I believe that this is the first time the House has had a debate of this kind, following the coming into force of the European Union Act 2011. This is Section 10 doing its job, in effect, allowing parliamentary scrutiny of, focus on and pressures towards important decisions in the EU. It is quite clear from the discussions this evening that this process works. It comes with a very clear message that will emerge in a moment, but certainly it is an opportunity to put a message that would not have been there before.

As we know, the regulations before us this evening make a number of fairly minor changes—there is no disguising that they are minor—primarily to the Court of Justice and to the Civil Service Tribunal. The changes are aimed at improving efficiency and overcoming the backlogs in those two courts.

I do not think that I have ever had an easier task than I have had this evening because every one of your Lordships who has spoken has made the same central point, which I totally recognise and of which I see the validity. The point is that the move towards the appointment of more judges and reform to overcome the backlog in the General Court should be going forward faster. All noble Lords who have spoken displayed a clear view that would like to see the situation move faster; that it is, in the words of the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, unacceptable to have delay; and, in the graphic words of the noble Earl, Lord Sandwich, that the wheels of the legal system of the European Union and the wheels of international discussion or supranational discussion, move very slowly indeed. The United Kingdom will certainly continue to press forward. We are members of the friends of the presidency group; we are aiming for the December report, as I made clear in my opening remarks; and, as the noble Lord, Lord Williamson, rightly emphasised with his enormous experience of these things, there will be the need for very careful consideration.

I mentioned in my opening remarks the selection of the judges. The noble Lord, Lord Williamson, asked whether 12 was the right number—12, of course, is the number that emerges from the Court’s own views.

[Lord Anderson of Swansea]

The Minister mentioned the December report. He surely recognises that that is an informal procedure, which has to be restored to the formal tracks. Does the Minister agree that it may take a year from now before any new judges are in place?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I cannot really agree with that because I do not know exactly how the pressures will build up. It is possible, of course, that it will take a year—that is a gloomy assessment—but the report may be very well focused. The momentum behind it may increase. Indeed, the results of this evening’s debate may assist in the kind of momentum that the noble Lord wants to see.

The noble Lord, Lord Bowness, who obviously speaks with enormous authority on these matters, asked particularly why Section 10 applied to the draft regulation relating to temporary judges of the EU Civil Service Tribunal. The answer is that the legal basis of that draft regulation is Article 257 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union, and that is listed in Section 10(1)(d) of the European Union Act 2011, which we took through this House a year ago. That is the technical answer to the very detailed question that the noble Lord rightly put, because it is the detail that this Chamber can focus on remarkably effectively. It gives me great pleasure that your Lordships’ House is able to look in such detail at these matters.

Your Lordships mentioned a whole range of other issues, all coming back to the question of delay. Obviously costs are involved. In this age, we cannot just put them aside. Although costs should not be the decisive matter, we should take them very carefully into consideration.

The noble Lord, Lord Hannay, pointed out that, in addition to the fact that the Lisbon treaty obviously added greatly to the functions and responsibilities of the ECJ, ahead lie other key decisions about opting in and opting out in 2014. They are decisions that we will have to debate and they will be taken very carefully. I think that almost every other noble Lord who spoke, including the noble Lords, Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames and Lord Liddle, and I have mentioned all the other noble Lords, all referred to speeding up matters.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick]

I just want to ensure that the noble Lord appreciates, as I am sure he does, that the extension of the workload of the European Court of Justice, by getting jurisdiction over the justice and home affairs area, does not depend on our decision. Whichever decision we make, 26 countries will be subject to that jurisdiction in December 2014, and that is going to increase the workload massively, whatever decision we come to.

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I am sure that the noble Lord is right to emphasise that. The workload will increase. We have heard various reasons for that but some of them must arise from the changes made in the Lisbon treaty. Some arise from the increased litigation; some, as the noble Lord, Lord Williamson, reminded us, arise from international pressures; and some from the increased membership. All those things add up to the fact that this is a Court which, if it is to work efficiently, must clearly gear itself to a much greater load than it has had in the past. I do not think that anyone could dispute that.

As I said, the draft regulations are minor, and the Government support them. We think that they make a step in the right direction and that they will support increased efficiency in this very important European institution. They should also help to prevent a further backlog of cases building up before the European Court of Justice and the European Civil Service Tribunal. There has been a considerable problem for the General Court, as pointed out by the committee and as highlighted graphically by my noble friend Lord Bowness this evening.

If I may meet the challenge put by the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, it is absolutely clear to us that an effective and efficient Court of Justice of the EU is in our national interest. British businesses rely on the timely administration of justice within the context of the single market, and a single market that is able to operate effectively is as crucial now as it ever was as we seek to restore the growth and confidence required to build Britain’s prosperity.

Therefore, the Government will continue to work on wider efficiency reforms to the Court of Justice of the European Union, as indeed they will continue to do in relation to the General Court. Those things will have to be taken carefully but we will press on with them.

I thank noble Lords for their contributions to the discussion. I hope that I have covered every detailed point as well as the general points which I have been asked to comment on. If I have not, I shall of course write to your Lordships. I am grateful for the very clear message that has gone out from this House this evening, and I commend this Motion to the House.

Motion agreed.

Democratic Republic of Congo

Lord Howell of Guildford Excerpts

Thursday 19th July 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Chidgey]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of reports that mutineers in the eastern part of the Democratic Republic of Congo have received assistance from foreign military officials.

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford)]

My Lords, we have studied the United Nations Group of Experts report and believe it to be credible. We call on the countries named in the report to seek a sustainable resolution to the conflict, and one that breaks the cycle of violence.

[Lord Chidgey]

I am grateful to my noble friend for that Answer, but is he aware that Presidents Kabila and Kagame have agreed that the 11-nation International Conference on the Great Lakes Region should work with the AU and the UN to establish a neutral force along the Rwanda-Congo border? Has President Kagame discussed with our Prime Minister which countries are offering to commit troops while Rwanda withdraws its support from the M23 rebels? Secondly, the Tutsi leader, Senator Mwangachuchu, claims that the M23 rebellion resulted from the ICC judgment against Thomas Lubanga and the indictment of Bosco Ntaganda for recruiting child soldiers and other crimes. Has the Prime Minister offered UK assistance, or has any other agency offered assistance in the pursuit and capture of Bosco Ntaganda?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

In answer to my noble friend’s questions, yes I am aware of the Great Lakes conference agreement by Presidents Kabila and Kagame and others that they should consider the idea of a border force, but it is still only at the thinking stage. Did my right honourable friend the Prime Minister discuss this with President Kagame when he saw him a few weeks ago? The answer is no, because the propositions of the Great Lakes group had not come forward at that point. The Prime Minister expressed extreme concern at the Group of Experts report that Rwanda might be involved in backing the M23, but other developments have taken place since.

Has the ICC judgment against Thomas Lubanga created an atmosphere in which the M23 rebellion and breakaway from the Congolese army has taken place? I have to say that it may have played a part, but it is very hard to say. It may have been one of the reasons why Bosco Ntaganda and others retreated from their previous co-operation with the Congo army and have set up a mutineers’ group again. Have we offered, and has my right honourable friend offered, UK assistance in the pursuit and capture of Bosco, who is of course indicted by the ICC? No, because it is the responsibility of the DRC itself to co-operate fully with the ICC, and that is what we constantly urge.

[Lord Boateng]

Given the importance of the African Union and South Africa and their good offices to the future of the DRC, would the Minister welcome the accession of the former Foreign Minister of South Africa, Mrs Dlamini-Zuma, to the leadership of the African Union? Her good offices are going to be absolutely crucial at this time if we are to bring peace and security to that area.

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

The noble Lord is absolutely right, and I certainly welcome that accession. The African Union is playing an increasingly positive part in facing up to the regional issues in the centre of Africa and at the centre of its concerns. We certainly welcome that. Obviously the African Union has played a key part in the International Conference on the Great Lakes, which was in the margins of the meeting of the African Union in Addis Ababa the other day. It is a very good prospect that South Africa is playing a leading part, as the noble Lord describes.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool]

My Lords, was the Minister’s reply to the noble Lord, Lord Chidgey, an acceptance that Rwanda has been aiding and abetting not only M23 but the other six rebel groups that have led to 1.4 million people being displaced in the Kivu in eastern Congo? That being the case, why are we not using the £344 million of aid which we have provided to Rwanda as leverage to persuade Rwanda not to aid and abet these insurgent groups, and to do rather more to bring to justice people such as Bosco Ntaganda, who has been responsible for the recruitment of child soldiers, which has led to the deaths of countless numbers of people—a haemorrhaging loss of life that dwarfs even the terrible and tragic events in Syria by comparison?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

In answer to the noble Lord, Lord Alton, no one questions the atrocities and misery of these various armies. I have counted five different armies and groups involved in killing and fighting each other in the region, and there is an extreme danger of this spreading and creating mayhem more widely on both humanitarian and security grounds. That is certainly the case.

As to our leverage, our aid programme is not quite as large as the sum mentioned by the noble Lord. I have a figure of £198 million a year to the DRC, and £83 million a year to Rwanda. Certainly our judgment is that, through that aid, we have the authority and the leverage to influence the situation. I spoke to the Foreign Minister of Rwanda, Louise Mushikiwabo, about three weeks ago, as did my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Development and my honourable friend Mr Bellingham. We all impressed on her and her colleagues the necessity of facing up to the reality, and of Rwanda’s activity, as reported in the Group of Experts, to cease and to make way for a proper solution to the conflict. We are using our leverage and influence in a very nasty situation, but the way we do it obviously varies from country to country.

[The Archbishop of Canterbury]

My Lords, I am very grateful for the opportunity to ask a question in this particular context, because I think the plight of the Congo is well known to everyone in this House. The issue of regional co-operation has already been flagged indirectly in what has been said. One of the questions I would like to ask is to do with what Her Majesty’s Government are doing to foster a broader regional strategic engagement involving more than simply the Governments of Rwanda and Congo. As part of that regional question, I am very concerned about a cross-border issue in the region: the plight of the indigenous peoples and indigenous minorities such as the Batwa. Twelve months ago I met the Batwa community in Congo and was dismayed to find what little attention some local authorities, especially by the United Nations, give to their plight. Are the Government aware of this?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I am very grateful to the most reverend Primate for his question about the regional aspects, which are vital. May I answer him in this way? First, my honourable friend Mr Bellingham, the Parliamentary Under-Secretary concerned with African matters, was at the African Union conference last week and talked to regional leaders in detail all the time. Secondly, we have been promoting the idea of regional dialogue between the countries concerned. Thirdly, we are the third largest humanitarian donor trying to grapple with the situation. Fourthly, there is the matter, which my noble friend raised, of the Great Lakes group and its movement towards the idea of detailed regional co-operation and the involvement of all the key players in the region in solving this problem themselves. The regional aspect is very important, and I fully agree with the most reverend Primate that this is what we should concentrate on.

As to the cross-border issue, which was his other question—

Noble Lords: Oh!

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I have been asked many questions, which produces many answers. The cross-border issue is very serious and we are looking at it very closely.

[Baroness King of Bow]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness King of Bow]

My Lords, I have visited the Great Lakes region on 10 occasions over a decade and I have never ceased to be amazed by the resilience and dignity of the local populations and the barbarity and scale of the atrocities visited on them, such as a nine month-old baby who was raped with a military-issue rifle and who then sustained terrible gunshot wounds. Does the Minister agree that we need to hold Rwanda to account, and that we should also hold the Congolese army to account? Could he press for more military tribunals so that we can play our role in ensuring that innocent victims such as that nine month-old baby girl get the justice they deserve?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

Yes. Obviously we encourage the bringing to account of the very evil people who are committing these atrocities; there is no question at all about that. Bosco Ntaganda has been indicted by the ICC, and Rwanda has its own tribunal and court for assessing the horrors of the past. In all other aspects of bringing those involved to account, we will certainly press as hard as we can in the ways I have described in detail to your Lordships over the past five minutes.

British Council: Funding

Lord Howell of Guildford Excerpts

Thursday 19th July 2012 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford)]

My Lords, I join in thanking the noble Lord, Lord Bach, for introducing this important topic. Like others, I am only sorry that the debate has come at the end of the day and that we have not had greater opportunities, which we may have in the future, for discussing the whole broad canvas of soft power and smart power, and the new techniques in this internet age for developing the promotion of our interests, cultures and values, of which the British Council is a central part.

In fact, I will begin at the end and say simply to the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, that I can certainly give that assurance. Certainly we see the British Council, as many of us have done for decades, as a central part of the promotion of the interests of this nation and, indeed, the promotion of all that we can contribute to world peace and stability. I totally agree with much of what the noble Lord, Lord Bach, said. In fact, a good deal of it was in the speech I was thinking of making, so I do not need to repeat it. I balk only at his point about blindness. That hurts a little, because some of us have for decades been pointing this out, from the days of the famous House of Commons Foreign Affairs Committee report of the 1980s, when I think the phrase “cultural diplomacy” first began to circulate.

As a result of that report, which I had the honour of participating in—although not as chairman of the committee—we have increasingly been pointing out that in the world we are moving into, cultural diplomacy, the promotion of values and attitudes, will be as powerful if not more powerful than ranges of carrier fleets, rockets and heavy military equipment—as the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, rightly reminded us. This is the pattern for the future, where hard and soft power must be brought together in an agile use of smart power within our resources and in a highly effective way. I agree with much of that.

I pay tribute to the work of the council and its staff, operating sometimes in extremely difficult and dangerous circumstances. This especially applies to its work in recent years in Afghanistan, Libya and Iraq.

I agree with those of your Lordships who said that the council has a global reputation. It has, as the noble Lord, Lord Bach, reminded us, 191 offices in 110 countries, and many millions of people have passed through the doors of the British Council to learn English or to make use of the other services that are offered. It is therefore a key opinion former and shaper. When people think of the United Kingdom, of Great Britain—of what it stands for and what it seeks to do—the picture the British Council paints is part of the important work that we all seek to do. The council is the cultural relations arm of the United Kingdom—of our country. It is aligned to the priorities of the Government of the day, but importantly, it is not part of the Government of the day. Its status—not least its operational status—sets it apart not only from other institutions of ours, but also from its international peers such as the Goethe Institute, the Institut Francais, the Instituto Cervantes, and now, interestingly, the growing number of Confucius Institutes, of which there are now 324 in 94 countries. I think that figure is two years out of date; it is probably more than that now. The Chinese model is very different from our own, I suspect, in its relationship with its government. It is spreading all the time, and in all corners of the earth.

The UK has a remarkable set of soft-power assets. Years ago, in the report I mentioned, we looked particularly at the BBC World Service and the British Council, but of course the whole range of soft-power instruments is far greater. Its central purpose, or aim, or set of tools, is the ability to influence the actions of others through attraction rather than coercion. It is working to exert this influence in order to achieve our national interests in an interdependent world, and to maximise our contribution to the stability, balance and prosperity of that world. In one of his first speeches when he took office, my right honourable friend the Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary talked of a networked world where connections between groups and individuals across the globe are a key part of the relations between nations. It is not just a matter of government to government, diplomat to diplomat, but of engaging fully with all sectors of society on a basis of mutual respect.

In the United Kingdom we seek to foster and strengthen these connections, and it is in this that the British Council can play such a key role. The message of the debate this evening has been perfectly clear; it is certainly one that I am well aware of and will carry back to all my colleagues in the Government. We see the immense value of the British Council, and obviously there is a wish that its funding and support is not attenuated.

People know that talking to the British Council is not the same as talking to the British Government, and that this opens up new avenues for engagement. Some who engage with the council will obviously be less willing to engage with the British Government; that is inevitable. So I will highlight that essential role and, incidentally, highlight one particular aspect of it, and that is the role of the Commonwealth network and how the British Council interrelates with it.

We have talked about linkages and common values, and of course the Commonwealth is an exemplar par excellence of that. It gives this country a unique advantage which many other countries envy. The British Council works in the majority of Commonwealth countries to reinforce the bond of trust through education, the arts, English language programmes and many other aspects. In fact, the British Council ran the Connecting Classrooms programme which led up to the Commonwealth Heads of Government Meeting in Perth last autumn. It works closely all the time with Commonwealth institutions and expects to be active in the UK in the build-up to the Commonwealth Games to be held in Glasgow in 2014.

There is no question but that this Government, like the previous Government, see the British Council’s main objective as building trust between countries and peoples and cultural relations between countries, and to improve the level of understanding between their peoples as well as provide a common space in which to meet and engage with each other. This in turn increases the level of trust between them. As the noble Lord, Lord Kinnock, pointed out in his eloquent intervention, the council states in its annual report that it has worked face to face with 12.5 million people in the calendar year up to 2011-12, which is an increase of 2 million compared with the year before. Overall, as the noble Lord again pointed out, the council has engaged with 35 million people world-wide. These are achievements that it can be proud of and they go hand in hand with a tribute that I am glad to pay to the noble Lord and to the previous chairmen of the British Council, and of course to those who are now operating with it. I concur with the remarks made about Mr Davidson, who has been extremely effective. I have more than once had the privilege of meeting him and discussing the council’s work.

The council’s work in promoting Britain has brought more and more visitors to these shores. They come to study here, to invest here, and to understand and embrace our culture. It has also helped countless others to build enduring links with this country. Something which I do not think is always understood outside—the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, was right to say that its work and its nature are not as widely understood as they should be—is that, unlike many of its international counterparts, the British Council has two sections: there is the work that is funded by the FCO through the grant in aid, about which I shall say more in a moment, and there is the work which is directly tied to cultural relations. By far the lion’s share of the council’s present income comes from its commercial work. The noble Lord, Lord Kinnock, and others have described how that has been built up with immense success. Its English language teaching, its examination services and, increasingly, its work in managing contracts have all been areas of growth. However, I should emphasise that there is a firm division between the two sorts of work, and each year the council’s auditors certify that their full cost recovery work is not subsidised by the Government.

Like all publicly funded bodies, the council has had to play its part in helping achieve the Government’s fiscal consolidation plans. I know that there is endless debate and challenge about the nature of those plans. I have to say that when the council’s grant in aid was cut under the 2010 spending review, that was not done with enthusiasm by someone wishing to make cuts, but under the dictate of the grim necessity of sharing the burden and making proportionate cuts. We accept fully that this has presented the council with a serious challenge. It is clear that it has risen to that challenge. It has restructured its operations and reduced staff numbers. It has found new ways of working efficiently and effectively.

The British Council has committed itself to ambitious expansion plans, increasing the turnover from £707 million in 2009-10 to £969 million by 2014-15. That naturally means that the grant in aid will fall as a percentage of the total from 26% to 16%. That sounds dramatic, but overall this is the language not of contraction but of expansion. The budget is set until the end of 2014-15.

We have not started on the process of discussing the next spending review, but the Foreign and Commonwealth Office will ensure that the British Council is kept engaged throughout the process. As your Lordships will recognise, it is impossible to say what any new budget levels will be. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Jay, that designating part of the FCO expenditure as ODA-able does not make any difference to the size of the expenditure or where the money comes from; it merely, as I say, designates part of our expenditure on the grant in aid as contributing towards the total overseas development assistance of the nation. We believe that the current restructuring of the British Council will provide a firm basis for its future expanding operations. We are confident that the council is maintaining the right balance between its work in English, arts and education and society, and that all of its activities contribute to its charitable purposes.

I reassure the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, after her very moving speech, that the British Council will not merely carry on but can be a more dynamic and effective partner in our national endeavour—as it has already been over the past 78 years. Its first charitable objective states, as the noble Lord, Lord Bach, reminded us, that it shall,

“promote cultural relationships and the understanding of different cultures between people and peoples of the United Kingdom and other countries”.

Therefore, I congratulate the British Council on the immense success it has had so far. We believe that this success can be built upon despite the economic difficulties that we face at the moment as a nation. We believe that its work can adapt to the changing world in which we live. I am confident that the council will continue to spread through the world the values that we hold so dear. I once again reassure your Lordships that the Government are fully apprised of the value of this spearhead of our reputation, our soft power, in a dangerous and difficult world.

House adjourned at 8.12 pm.

Gibraltar

Lord Howell of Guildford Excerpts

Monday 16th July 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Anderson of Swansea]

My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Lord Hoyle, and with his permission, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in his name on the Order Paper.

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford)]

My Lords, the Royal Navy challenges Guardia Civil and other Spanish state vessels whenever they make unlawful maritime incursions into British Gibraltar territorial waters. In such cases, we also make formal protests to the Spanish Government through diplomatic channels, making clear that such behaviour represents an unacceptable violation of British sovereignty.

[Lord Anderson of Swansea]

My Lords, the Minister is well aware that in spite of the fact that Gibraltar territorial waters are recognised by the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea, there has been a considerable increase in incursions by Guardia Civil vessels into Gibraltar territorial waters. There were none in 2009, eight in 2010, 280 in 2011 and well over 160 this year. In light of that escalation, and to avoid any further increase, will the Government join the Gibraltar Chief Minister, the honourable Fabian Picardo, in challenging our good ally Spain to refer the matter for determination by the International Court of Justice or by the International Tribunal for the Law of the Sea? Otherwise, on behalf of Gibraltar, will we take the matter to those international courts ourselves for final determination?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

The noble Lord is quite right about the increase in the number of these incursions. The problem about referring the issue to the International Court of Justice is that of course it requires all involved parties to agree to it, which does not appear to be in prospect. We believe that the right way forward is the one we are adopting, which is that the response should be measured, we should continue to press the Spanish Government very carefully and there is no point raising the temperature or tension in these matters, as they can be resolved by discussion. We would like of course to go back to the trilateral talks based on the Cordoba agreement, if we could. They were progressing, but that route, too, seems blocked. The way forward is, as I have described, to insist that these are unlawful maritime incursions and should not be accepted. We raise them in the strongest possible terms with the Spanish Government at every opportunity.

[Lord Luce]

My Lords, is the Minister aware that some 12 years ago, when I was governor of Gibraltar, we faced similar problems, and that there are lessons to be learnt from all this? In welcoming the setting up of the working party by the Government of Gibraltar to work with Spanish fisherman and environmental experts to try to find a way forward, will the Minister nevertheless assure the House that the British Government are providing whatever naval presence is needed to uphold sovereignty?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

Yes, I can give that assurance, and there have been no complaints from the Gibraltar Government about the lack of adequate resources. There is the Gibraltar squadron, which has two patrol craft, some rigid-framed inflatable boats and crews. The responses they work out can be preceded by radio warnings, but they are effective and will continue, so I can give that assurance.

[Lord Kilclooney]

My Lords, has the increase in these incursions not really arisen since the European Union decided that, as regards environmental matters, the waters around Gibraltar were Spanish and not British? Is this being challenged and are the Government doing anything to expedite the court case?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I am not sure that that is the right analysis. That case, which continues, is about how these waters are designated as a European Union special site of community importance, and it is being disputed. The immediate pattern seems to have been that with the new Gibraltar Government the informal agreement which allowed Spanish fishermen certain opportunities to fish, entirely on an informal basis, has ended and the resultant tensions have been fostered by the fact that Spanish fishermen now come accompanied by Guardia Civil vessels, which obviously raise the tension further. That is the cause of the difficulty now. The other issue that the noble Lord raised continues to be disputed vigorously because these are British sovereign waters and any designation as an EU site will be the responsibility of the British and Gibraltar Governments.

[Lord Roper]

My Lords, will the Minister tell the House what other steps are being taken to resolve practical problems between Spain and Gibraltar?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

There are a range of detailed practical problems that can and should be arranged and should be discussed. We would like to see a move back to the previous trilateral arrangements, which included the British Government, the Spanish Government and Gibraltar and were a good forum for making progress. At the moment, that is not encouraged and does not seem to be favoured by the Spanish Government, so I have to report that the linkages to deal with these smaller matters are really either informal or in small groups. No general strategy is being successfully carried forward, and we would like to see one developed.

[Lord West of Spithead]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that this escalation in events is quite worrying and that while one understands efforts to defuse the situation, we need to do more to get the message across that this is unacceptable? We might otherwise find ourselves in the position we were in on 15 July 1798, when HMS “Lion” took on four Spanish frigates, capturing one and sending the rest running—a position we would not like to be in again.

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

The noble Lord is absolutely right that it could develop seriously, but from the point of view of the Spanish fishing community, the Spanish Government, ourselves or the people of Gibraltar there is no interest in escalating this to the point of any kind of physical action. Therefore, we think that dialogue is the best way forward. We have good relations with the Spanish Government. My right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary met the Spanish Foreign Secretary on 29 May and discussed it, and we think this is the right channel through which to develop a better dialogue and to meet all these detailed issues, including the fishing incursions. Once we have solved them, we would take a broader view about whether Spain is going to co-operate closely with us and Gibraltar on the kind of trilateral regime we had before, but the first thing is to solve the fishing dispute.

[Lord Swinfen]

My Lords, what is done with the vessels that are caught illegally operating in Gibraltarian waters? Are they destroyed?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

They are escorted and moved out of British sovereign waters by our patrol craft. They are asked to go and they go.

Syria: Olympic Truce

Lord Howell of Guildford Excerpts

Monday 16th July 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hylton]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they will propose within the United Nations that steps be taken to apply the Olympic Truce in Syria during at least the period of the 2012 Games, and if possible for the traditional 100 days.

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford)]

My Lords, we are committed to the Olympic Truce’s ideals of conflict prevention and peace. In the case of Syria, the six-point plan of the joint special envoy, Kofi Annan, sets out clearly the steps to a ceasefire. This has not been implemented by the Syrian regime, despite its undertaking to do so. We are therefore pressing for full implementation of the Annan plan to stop the terrible violence in Syria and allow a Syrian-led political transition.

[Lord Hylton]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his reply. It seems that the Annan plan has not been accepted in any way by the Syrian Government. Will Her Majesty’s Government consider barring access to this country for the Olympic Games to Syrian athletes, officials and even spectators unless they agree to a truce?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

Anyone applying to enter the United Kingdom is treated according to our Immigration Rules. If an individual is currently the subject of a European Union or UN travel ban, they will not be able to come to the Games. However, I emphasise that this is a matter that relates to individuals, not to teams generally, groups or nationalities. I repeat: accreditation to the Olympics will be refused to any individual who may present a safety or security risk, or whose presence at the Games or in the UK would not be conducive to the public good.

[Baroness Falkner of Margravine]

My Lords, my noble friend mentioned the Annan plan. Amnesty International reported today that Syria is in a state of civil war. In his Statement to the House of Commons on 11 June, the Foreign Secretary said that if there was a full civil war the Annan plan would be set aside and the United Kingdom would move to a resolution in the Security Council. Are the Government co-operating with the French to do so next week?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

My understanding was that it was the International Red Cross that raised the concept of civil war, although whether it is qualified to establish an accepted viewpoint is debatable. The British Government are looking at the issue in the light of what has been said and the continuing, horrific and totally unacceptable level of violence. I cannot say more than that at the moment. We have not reached a clear view on the point that my noble friend raised.

[Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean]

My Lords, the Question of the noble Lord, Lord Hylton, is topical for the worst of all possible reasons—we have heard of another appalling atrocity this weekend. I am sure that the Government are very concerned about these terrible reports of slaughter after slaughter, but will the noble Lord tell us whether, the Annan plan notwithstanding, any thought is being given to the creation of safe havens on the borders of Syria, where people can go when they feel that they are in such appalling danger? I am sure we all feel that this is a terrible situation, but we seem utterly stuck in it.

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I can understand the noble Baroness’s feelings. On the broad issue, Kofi Annan is now in Moscow pressing the Russians who—with the Chinese—are a key part of this story, so that we can move to a Chapter 7 UN resolution. As for safe havens, of course thought is being given to these matters, but the noble Baroness knows that for them to be policed and operated on Syrian soil means the involvement of personnel and conditions inside Syria which simply do not exist at the moment. They would involve much higher risks and many more dangers than we face even at present. As to safe havens, the authorities in Turkey have created some refugee havens and areas to which many people have crossed the border and entered. However, safe havens and corridors within Syria have been considered but are not a realistic possibility as we see it at the moment.

[Lord Bates]

Although I share my noble friend’s revulsion at the events in Syria, the fact is that Syria is a co-sponsor of the Olympic Truce resolution which this Government have done so much to promote, and which this Government proposed to the UN General Assembly last year. These are desperate times and there is a case for desperate measures. Could not one of those measures be to use the Olympic Truce which comes into force on 27 July as the basis on which a delegation involving the previous proposers of the Olympic Truce, China, and the next proposers of the Olympic Truce, Russia, could go to Damascus under the auspices of the UN and the IOC to plead for Syria to honour this important commitment?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

First, I acknowledge and salute my noble friend Lord Bates’ work in promoting the Olympic Truce ideal, which is widely supported. Of course, the British Government took the lead in co-sponsoring UN Resolution 66/5 on, “Building a peaceful … world”. The question that my noble friend rightly poses, through some very creative thinking, is whether we could not somehow involve China and Russia in joint action to mount more pressure on Damascus—indeed, on both sides in Syria—to cease their appalling and violent activity. A short while ago my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary agreed with Mr Lavrov, the Russian Foreign Minister, a joint statement on co-operation on the ideals of the Olympic Truce. There is a basis there for further discussion. I am also sure that Kofi Annan will be raising the matter in Moscow now while we are discussing it here. The basic ingredients are there for something along the lines that my noble friend mentioned. However, I am afraid that it is a long haul ahead and there are many difficulties in the way. But the truce is a potential asset in trying to move forward and get a grip on this horrific situation in Syria.

Middle East: Recent Developments

Lord Howell of Guildford Excerpts

Friday 13th July 2012 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

That this House takes note of recent developments in the Middle East.

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford)]

My Lords, I thank the House for giving me the opportunity to update your Lordships on the truly momentous events in the Middle East and north Africa since our last debate on these and related issues in March. I say straightaway that, viewing the whole scene in the Middle East and north Africa, we see progress and of course we see setbacks. It must be viewed as a mixture of cautious hopes and serious concerns.

In a region with its full share of dangerous and grim events—only this morning, we have news of a further horrific massacre—let me at least start my comments with something a bit more positive. I do so by quoting from a report that came to my hand only this week from our embassy in Tripoli. That is the Tripoli in Libya, as opposed to the other Tripoli. It said:

“Joyful and moving scenes at polling stations as Libyans vote for the first time in 47 years. A small number of violent incidents disrupt polling in the East, but the Election Commission and ordinary people do all they can to ensure voting can continue. Initial assessments from domestic observer groups find the elections well organised, transparent and fair. Turnout projected at 62%, including large numbers of women”.

These are people who, a year ago, were fighting each other and fighting against a brutal tyrant. Despite all the many other problems, this at least indicates that there can be and is progress in some regions.

I will come back to that good story in Libya in a moment in more detail, but I turn straight away from it to a much worse story: the Syrian tragedy, which is a vortex of killing and atrocities. When I updated the House in March, it had been a year since the protest began. It is now 17 months and as many as 17,000 people may have been slaughtered. Hundreds more are dying every week, predominantly at the hands of the regime, which is perpetrating horrifying violence against its own people. The independent UN commission of inquiry has recorded widespread and shocking human rights violations committed by the Syrian authorities, including arbitrary arrests and detentions, torture, sexual assault and rape. The commission also reported on the increasing levels of opposition violence. We of course urge all parties to end the violence. That is what we must do, but there can be little surprise that 600,000 people have fled their homes, with 500,000 of them remaining in Syria and nearly 100,000 now being refugees across Turkey, Jordan, Lebanon and Iraq.

The Joint UN and Arab League special envoy for Syria, Kofi Annan, whom I had the opportunity to meet the other evening, set out on 16 March a six-point plan to end the violence and to start a political process. He has made it clear that the primary responsibility for implementation must lie with the Syrian regime, but we see little progress on the ground. Violence has intensified over the last few weeks. Nevertheless, the plan as put forward by Kofi Annan remains the best framework and hope of achieving a ceasefire and political transition. This is why my right honourable friend the Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary, William Hague, travelled to Geneva at the end of last month for the first meeting of the Syria Action Group. This meeting, which included Russia and China, agreed: that there should be a transitional governing body in Syria; that it would be made up of representatives of the present Syrian Government, the Opposition and other groups; and that it should be formed on the basis of mutual consent. It is our clear understanding that this would preclude President Assad, from whose circles we note that certain defections have taken place. However, one has to recognise that the hard core around him remains for the moment.

The third Friends of Syria meeting on 6 July in Paris, where over 100 nations and international organisations came together, endorsed that plan. It recognised that the international community must hold all parties, starting with the Syrian Government, responsible for complying with the action group plan. The Friends of Syria meeting resolved to support a Chapter VII resolution in the UN Security Council. We are working with the Security Council to impose tighter sanctions on those who are responsible for the obscene violations of human rights that we have seen, heard and read about.

Given the very grave and deteriorating situation in Syria, we are now urging all our partners to do more than to respond to the humanitarian plight of innocent Syrian civilians. I suppose one has to ask whether we can get the Russians to move more onside, too, in this task. They are making certain moves, reported in the newspapers today, about shipping movements and use of the port of Tartus. We will have to see how that works out but, for our part, on 5 July my right honourable friend the Development Secretary announced a doubling of our humanitarian aid to £17.5 million. That additional £9 million will deliver emergency food assistance to 80,000 people a month, shelter to 9,000 and support for 4,000 more refugees outside Syria.

I began with a mention of the situation in Libya. This was an historic step and Libyans rightly should be proud of the achievement that they have secured so far. Frankly, the United Kingdom has a right to be proud as well to have supported the electoral preparations. We were the largest donor to the UN election funds; we funded training for domestic observers; UK police officers have helped to provide training on the co-ordination of election security; and we have provided significant support to empower women and youth to participate in the political process. We, the United Kingdom, stood shoulder to shoulder with the Libyan people as they sought to protect themselves and fight for basic freedoms. Since liberation was declared nine months ago, tangible progress has been made. The election story that I began with highlights that. We look forward to the swift formation of the national congress and the appointment of a Government to take forward these issues swiftly. We will, of course, maintain our support for Libyans as they continue on their path towards a peaceful, stable, prosperous and democratic country.

I turn for a moment to Egypt, which has taken momentous steps in the transition process. My right honourable friend the Prime Minister wrote to the newly elected President Morsi to congratulate him and my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary praised the Egyptian people for their commitment to the democratic process. We have made clear the importance of sustained progress towards a legitimate, inclusive and accountable Government, underpinned by strong and responsible institutions—including the Parliament—and a new constitution which represents the interests of all Egyptians. As of now, we are obviously seeing a clash of wills between the Muslim Brotherhood and the military authorities. Perhaps one might observe that this was an inevitable part of the transition process. Our hope, and indeed our efforts, must be in support of seeing that it is resolved calmly and judiciously, not by violence.

The success of the Muslim Brotherhood in the recent Egyptian elections and the successes of other parties inspired by Islam in the region have undoubtedly created some nervousness about the implications for the development of democracy and respect for human rights in the region. In particular, some are concerned that the Arab spring and its consequences have endangered the security of minorities, including Christians, in the Middle East. That, no doubt, is a matter that your Lordships will want to raise during today’s debate.

In Egypt, we have been supportive of interfaith dialogue through a project that creates partnerships between Muslim and Christian groups to train mixed teams in conflict resolution skills. We welcome the work of Al-Azhar University in promoting interfaith dialogue against sectarianism. Of course we recognise that there are problems but we are determined to help resolve them.

Tunisia, where the present phase of protest and empowerment began, has made considerable progress in its transition, including on free expression and political pluralism. We now expect the Constituent Assembly to produce a final version of a new constitution by 23 October and elections will be held in March next year.

This all needs to be reinforced by economic development; obviously, these things go together. The whole Maghreb region is not very well integrated—in fact, some say that it is the least economically integrated region in the world. However, Tunisia has shown admirable support for intra-Maghreb co-operation in the five-nation Arab Maghreb Union and will host the next Arab Maghreb summit in October, the first for 16 years. my honourable friend Alastair Burt, the Minister for the Middle East region, has just presided over and addressed an excellent conference at Wilton Park, the Foreign and Commonwealth Office support entity at Wiston House, dealing with Maghreb unification and development, a highly successful event.

Elsewhere in the region, in many areas change has been very frustrating. In Iraq the political process is deadlocked, with attempts to bring a vote of no confidence in Prime Minister Maliki. The continued internal wrangling is detracting from Iraq’s progress on key political and economic developments. The issues between Kurdistan and Baghdad remain to be resolved. However, I have to note that, despite the difficult politics, Iraq’s progress towards its oil production target is on track. Indeed, some say that it will achieve production of 5 million barrels a day and very high exports by the end of this year, so there is some light in that situation.

It is vital for Iraq’s democracy and its continued economic progress that all parties find a way to engage constructively, within the constitution, to resolve their differences. We will continue to encourage a political process that aids Iraq’s democratic and economic development. We also note, and commend, the efforts of the United Nations to broker a peaceful and durable solution to the situation at Camp Ashraf, which has been a matter of great concern.

Then there is Iran, which continues to be a source of deep unease throughout the region and indeed the world. We remain committed to a diplomatic solution to the Iranian nuclear issue. In three rounds of talks with Iran since April—in Istanbul, Baghdad and Moscow—the permanent five members of the UN Security Council plus Germany, which are leading the negotiations with Iran on behalf of the international community, have put a set of proposals to the Iranian Government about how they could start to build confidence in their nuclear activities. The proposals focus on Iran’s enrichment activity, which at present is on a scale that can have no plausible civilian justification. We believe that Iran now needs to reflect on these proposals and start taking concrete steps to reassure the international community. Until Iran acts, the pressure on it will only grow. The EU oil embargo on Iran came into force a fortnight ago on 1 July and will now be strengthened, and over the coming weeks we will be working closely with our partners to increase pressure much further.

In Bahrain, progress over the past four months has, frankly, been minimal. We await the implementation of the recommendations of the Bahrain Independent Commission of Inquiry and continue to call for progress to be made. Waiting, though, is not enough. The Government there must go further and implement meaningful political reforms as well. That message is not only for our own consumption; it is one that I and my fellow Ministers in the FCO have delivered to the Bahraini Foreign Minister, the Minister of the Interior and the Minister of Justice, all of whom have visited the UK over the past month. Some have criticised us for this engagement and we may hear more criticism, but we believe that dialogue is essential if the reforms that we all want are to take place.

In Yemen, we welcome President Hadi’s leadership of the political transition, particularly the progress made on a national dialogue and the reorganisation of military figures. He has achieved notable successes in the fight against violent extremism, pushing al-Qaeda out of the towns since 2011, which is a definite move forward. The trouble with Yemen is that the economy remains infirm and the humanitarian situation, particularly in the south, is growing ever more serious. We have led efforts at the UN to secure UNSC Resolution 2051, adopted unanimously on 12 June, to support Yemen’s transition, and we co-chaired, with Saudi Arabia and Yemen, a Friends of Yemen meeting on 23 May in Riyadh to agree how the international community can best support Yemen. That is the scene there.

Then, of course, we come to a matter of continuing and rightful interest to your Lordships, the Arab-Israeli conflict, which continues to remain urgent and is still very far from resolution. We welcome the recent efforts by the Palestinian and Israeli leaderships to renew direct contacts, but we are concerned about escalations of violence in Gaza again, particularly attacks targeting civilians. We have urged both sides to focus on dialogue, to avoid steps that could undermine the prospects for peace and to work towards the resumption of direct negotiations.

Despite the undoubted frustrations and tragedies, the situation overall in the Middle East and north Africa has developed considerably in the past four months, and in some areas is going forward in the right direction. As my right honourable friend William Hague said on Monday—in The Hague, actually—in his enormously authoritative speech on international justice:

“The Arab spring has shattered the idea that nations can maintain long-term stability and prosperity without human rights, political participation and economic freedom for their citizens”.

I would add to that, “These forces are of course the outcome of the information revolution that has empowered people and weakened Governments everywhere, and not, I may say, just in the Middle East and the north African region but everywhere in the world”.

One has to ask whether the changes that we are witnessing could change the character of the relationship between the Middle East region and the rest of the world. Without doubt, it is not only the internal political changes of the Arab spring, but the profound and fundamental changes in the global energy market which are being highly influential on the whole region and how we look at it. Energy, like politics, is becoming increasingly multipolar as energy demand shifts away from the OECD and energy supply becomes far more diffuse world wide, with newly exploitable, massive sources of hydrocarbons opening up in the Americas, Asia-Pacific and all round Africa. In fact, a second energy revolution, beyond and riding with the green revolution, is in progress.

None of this alters the fact that the Middle East and north Africa lie at the doorstep of Europe and constitute not just our wider neighbourhood but some of our key markets and our close friendships. Instability breeds insecurity. The political success of the countries of the region is intimately bound up with our security and prosperity in the United Kingdom as well as that of our friends, allies and global partners. This has been called the interconnectedness of history. It is the point we have now reached in the globalisation of our interests and our concerns, and that is why this Government and, especially, my right honourable friend the Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary, have worked tirelessly, energetically and creatively in support of peace and development in the region. We will continue to do so. I beg to move.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

My Lords, of course it is impossible to do full justice to all the wisdom and analysis uttered during this debate this morning and this afternoon. I shall not be able to answer every question, although I shall attempt to cover as much ground as I can. I say straight away to the noble Lord, Lord Wood, that it is very welcome to hear his support for my right honourable friend William Hague in his call that the UN mission in Syria must be able to access Traymseh in the Hama district quickly and without hindrance so that it can carry out an independent investigation into what has happened and who is responsible for the shocking atrocities that have been reported. Naturally, that makes us redouble our efforts to agree a Chapter 7 resolution of the United Nations Security Council. I shall return to some of other comments of the noble Lord later.

A number of themes and preoccupations run through this. There is the call about the need for balance, with which the noble Lord, Lord Haskel, set off our debate. It is very easy and right to call for balance but it is extremely difficult to achieve as we weave our way through these rival claims, often with a lack of clear information about what has happened, who has said what and what is going on. However, this is obviously the aim that Her Majesty’s Government seek constantly to achieve in a very complex situation; and, as the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, reminded us in his excellent speech, it is a constantly changing situation. The emphasis of these different issues moves rapidly from one area to another.

Let me go through some of the detail. First, we heard from my noble friend Lady Falkner who straight away touched on Iran, which has been an issue throughout the debate, and whether tensions would be rising among Israeli policymakers about the possibility of attack. These are issues that the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Stirrup, also raised, as did the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, my noble friend Lord Sheikh and many others. As a general observation, we take the closest possible interest in Israeli thinking and reactions to the evolution of policy that goes on. Our policy is entirely intact towards Iran, having had these three series of discussions. Pressure and engagement are the dual tracks we are pursuing.

It is true that the threat to the Strait of Hormuz, which we have heard inevitably and have heard before, may come along but Hormuz can be at least partially bypassed by other pipeline developments. I think my noble friend Lord Sheikh touched on this. The developments include the Fujairah pipeline, which can carry some extra oil and cut out the Strait of Hormuz. Nevertheless, this is a serious issue. It affects world perceptions, international crude oil prices and so on. This is the area of threats and actions, which we must be right to seek to avoid by maintaining sensible negotiation. We agree that negotiation is obviously the best path forward, as the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, emphasised. However, it must be negotiation and if we cannot achieve progress on that front then the pressure will grow. I described some measures that are already being taken and will follow from the 1 July oil embargo. One has to be realistic about that.

My noble friend Lady Falkner also asked about Diego Garcia. Supposing the scenario darkened, which I naturally hope it would not, and there was a military development of some kind, she asked what it would be used for. The answer is obvious. If Israel was to take military action, the United States would be involved and if the United States was involved we would be involved. This would be a triggering of global action and Diego Garcia would therefore obviously be dragged into it. However, this is a scenario of the future that we are anxious to avoid by the negotiation path. I make that absolutely clear.

The noble Lord, Lord Empey, rightly observed that our democracy is not the only version. He is absolutely right. There is a tendency, which many of us in your Lordships’ House know we should seek to resist, to arrive with packaged lectures on how democracy should work in cultures where, frankly, it works in completely different ways. It is always wise to bear that in mind. The noble Lord asked about compensation following all the dark Libyan doings of the past under Colonel Gaddafi, which have led to sadness, tragedy and violence in Northern Ireland, and how the public and the Government’s approach fitted in with the private search for individual compensation. I do not find the difficulty with that which he seemed to find. The aim of government policy is to repair relationships generally with a number of measures that we are taking, leaving the quest for individual compensation in private hands. If he has more worries about that, I am happy to go into it with him in future.

My noble friend Lord Lamont said, in a very impressive speech, “Don’t arm the Syrian rebels”. We are not; our policy is only to provide non-lethal equipment and advice, and that is what we are doing. The people who are being armed are the Assad regime. We know about Iran; I cannot give the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, the detail that he wants because we just do not have it, but we know that arms are passing from Iran to the regime. We are also deeply concerned by reports of Russia’s supplies to the regime. We can all read the latest reports in the newspapers about additional Russian warships going to the port of Tartus, some of which may be laden with equipment, helicopters and so on, that could be and perhaps are being used by the Assad regime. The reality, I am afraid, is that arms are being poured into this lethal, miserable and tragic situation. My noble friend Lord Risby spoke with great authority about the Syrian scene and about the inevitability of regime change. I hope that that is right; as I said in my opening remarks, we are watching carefully to see whether serious defections from the Assad circle are beginning. That is what we have to continue watching for.

Predictably, a number of noble Lords voiced concerns about the Middle East peace process and the unending and aggravating issue of settlements. I can tell the noble Baroness, Lady Blackstone, without any equivocation that we have repeatedly condemned Israel’s announcements that it is accelerating settlement-building in the Occupied Territories, including in east Jerusalem. We have called on Israel to reverse these. As well as being illegal under international law, settlements undermine the possibility of a two-state solution to the conflict and those working for a sustainable peace. We look constantly to the Government of Israel, and are pressing them, to take all necessary steps to prevent settlement construction, and we will not cease pressing. I also have to say that we find the Levy commission conclusion, which says, in effect, “It’s all all right because these aren’t really occupied territories”, distinctly odd. Frankly, it does not fit in with the realities. That is on the negative side. I shall come to more positive aspects of the peace process question in a moment.

The noble Lord, Lord Watson, raised the issue of Bahrain, which I also touched on in my opening remarks. I assure him that we will certainly keep pressing on this matter. We regard Bahrain as friends, but friends who need to be pressed to deal more constructively and effectively with the situation that they face. No one questions or denies the difficulties and the tensions that are faced in Bahrain, and obviously there is religious or sectarian conflict between Shia and Sunni factions. Nevertheless, I leave him in no doubt that we will continue pressing on that.

My noble friend Lord Dykes had a good go at US policy. I thought that he was a shade harsh, but I would say this: here in the UK, because of our long history and experience, we can certainly assist our close American colleagues and allies in handling some of the immensely difficult situations that we all face collectively—not any particular country—in the Middle East. My noble friend was also right to praise Turkey and the Turkish role, which is something that we need to co-ordinate and work with very closely. Turkey is a major influence on the Middle East situation and is developing a new emphasis in its policies which we want to work closely with.

When the noble Lord, Lord Stone, rises, my spirits tend to rise as well on these occasions when we look around the generally extremely gloomy outlook because he always brings news of practical, sensible developments that are raising living standards, easing poverty and meeting, overcoming or bypassing the political difficulties, particularly on the Arab/Israeli front, but in other areas as well. I congratulate him on all that he is doing.

I feel somewhat the same about the experience and wisdom of my noble friend Lord Sheikh, who also brings news of the investment potential opening up in these regions that if pursued, despite all the politics and the setbacks, can bring only benefit. My noble friend also mentioned Oman. He did not reprove me, but I reprove myself for not mentioning it in my opening speech because our relations with that country are extremely good. We work very closely with it in all sorts of ways, as your Lordships know. Perhaps the lack of mention was simply because there are no problems.

Other noble Lords also emphasised what Israel and Palestine can do together: the noble Lord, Lord Haskel, at the beginning of our debate and the noble Lords, Lord Hylton, Lord Mitchell and Lord Janner. The suggestion by the noble Lord, Lord Mitchell, about universities working together excites me. I have no idea whether it is practical or to what extent Governments should be involved in what should perhaps be a non-governmental initiative, but this sort of thing must make the scene and the underlying context better so that we can get the MEPP to move again in a rather more encouraging way.

The noble Lord, Lord Hannay, contributed his wisdom and experience about the UN. We will continue to mount all kinds of robust pressures to get a Chapter 7 resolution. If it appears that some members of the P5—most obviously Russia, but perhaps China—are reluctant, we will have no hesitation about nevertheless pushing forward initiatives to bring home to them the essential need for us to work together if there is to be effective co-ordination in meeting the horrors of Syria or the dangers of Iran, which are just as much dangers to Beijing and Moscow as they are to western capitals and to the capitals of the Middle East as well.

The noble Lord, Lord Giddens, made a fascinating speech about how social media empower people and weaken Governments. I totally agree with that thesis and have long argued it myself. It is obvious that the internet and the web liberalise in that Governments no longer have a monopoly of data, but they also endanger by empowering very sinister groups. I was delighted to hear his speech. Some of us have been writing about these things for a couple of decades, and in due course all our great media commentators and so on will grasp the impact of the electronic and information revolution on the position of Governments and on the power of overcentralised Governments to retain control, which they can no longer do.

The noble Lord, Lord Wood, wound up with a very interesting survey of how he feels policy should change. He set out his three policy aims, and I have to say that they sound awfully like what we are trying to do already. I am sure he has ideas for doing them better, but they are the driving forces of our strategy in the Middle East. As to co-ordination, it is not just co-ordination with our EU allies and partners, which goes on, but, such is the global nature of our problems, it is co-ordination, if we can achieve it, with Beijing and the policy-makers in Shanghai and other places who inspire Chinese foreign policy and open up the fact that China can no longer stick to a non-interference policy because its interests are directly affected in the Middle East. There is the co-ordination with Turkey and the other rising and emerging powers of Africa. This has become a task of infinitely greater complexity than merely working with our next-door neighbours in the European Union.

The noble Lords, Lord Anderson and Lord Ahmad, made excellent speeches as well. I mention the correct analysis of the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, of the current changing emphasis in the Middle East. Out thoughts are obviously on the Syrian horror, but no doubt new and more difficult challenges lie ahead.

Developments in the Middle East and north Africa are being driven by the desire of the peoples of those countries to determine their future—to determine who governs them and by which rules—and to freely express themselves and earn a fair living, which is vital, and support their families. Perhaps we have not covered the economics of the situation as much as we should have this afternoon, but they are central.

Her Majesty’s Government’s approach will always be to support these people, their hopes and desires. We are proud of programmes we have in place, such as the Arab Partnership and many other dialogues and bilateral and multilateral links which we operate from the Foreign and Commonwealth Office with the vigorous support of my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary—and, indeed, of my colleagues as well. If we stay true to our values, committed to change and conscientious in achieving it, Britain can play an important role in forging more open, tolerant, stable and prosperous societies in the region, from which we will all benefit. I like to think that what your Lordships have contributed this afternoon will help to clarify and unify our attempts, and reinforce what we are trying to do to achieve a better pathway forward for what has been such a troubled region.

Motion agreed.

China: Mineral Acquisitions

Lord Howell of Guildford Excerpts

Thursday 12th July 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Elton]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what view they take of the increasing acquisition by China of rights and access to mineral and other national resources in Africa and South America.

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford)]

My Lords, the United Kingdom Government welcome increased foreign investment across Africa and South America, including investment from Chinese companies. The Government are working with African and South American countries to ensure that they secure the maximum possible social and economic benefits from resource extraction—for example, through direct support for and promotion of the extractive industries transparency initiative and the natural resource charter.

[Lord Elton]

My Lords, given that Chinese nationals comprise not quite 20% of the world population and are 20 times as numerous as our own population, their ambitions and intentions are of immense importance to all of us. Does my noble friend consider their motives to be basically imperial, colonial or commercial?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

My Lords, the motives behind the enormous expansion of Chinese investment across the whole globe—not just in Asia, Africa and South America—are mixed. In some cases the motives are purely commercial. At the head of the list, I think, one would put the Chinese authorities’ desire to acquire access to resources—minerals and particularly hydrocarbons—around the world to meet their enormous and very rapidly growing needs. There are also some direct concerns in investment to promote the welfare of the recipient countries. The British Government have in fact signed a memorandum of understanding with the Chinese Government on poverty reduction in the low-income countries. This is one of many dialogues that we conduct all the time with the Chinese on these matters.

[Lord Anderson of Swansea]

What assessment have our own strategic planners and those of our allies made of the dangers of China over a longer term gaining such a monopoly of scarce mineral resources that it will be in a position to manipulate prices and possibly to manipulate other users of those scarce materials?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

Of course, these dangers of monopoly control exist in all extractive industries, particularly for scarce resources. We have to watch those matters very carefully. What might be behind the noble Lord’s question is the issue of rare earths, the use of which is essential in practically every mobile telephone and the production of which was very much under Chinese control until recently. However, any attempt to limit the export of rare earths and thereby to manipulate price has been met by the discovery and development of rare earths elsewhere. Therefore, provided that we watch these matters carefully, competition can usually weaken the monopolies. I am not saying that it is a Chinese aim to monopolise these resources, but in the case of rare earths that was a danger.

[Lord Ashdown of Norton-sub-Hamdon]

My Lords, does my noble friend agree that this country is hardly in the best historical position to lecture others about the morality of taking raw materials from Africa? In so far as we did so, if we had a policy in this area it might be better directed to advising others not to do it as we did it in the last century.

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I think we all agree that we do not want to go around lecturing and hectoring, but we have our own values, we have had our own experience, and we have made our own errors in the past. It is possible that by sharing our values and not reneging on them in any way we can help other countries avoid some of the mistakes that we made. I do not think that there is anything much to apologise for in working with other countries to ensure that today’s and tomorrow’s standards for the extractive industries are developed and maintained. I believe that this is a matter that the Chinese Government, as a responsible member of the World Trade Organisation, fully recognise.

[Lord Lawson of Blaby]

My Lords, is it not clear that the Chinese would not be spending vast amounts of money and a large amount of political capital in getting hold of hydrocarbon resources—in sub-Saharan Africa in particular—if they did not intend to use them? Given that, is it not clear that no global decarbonisation agreement is possible? Since it is not, is it not quixotic, to say the least, that the British Government should be forcing British industry and British consumers, particularly poor consumers, to have more expensive energy in the name of unilateral decarbonisation, which is completely pointless if there is no global agreement?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

Well, it is not quite pointless. As my noble friend knows well, China, although reluctant to commit itself to legal binding global agreements for which some others have argued, is in fact investing enormous amounts in decarbonisation and low-carbon technologies. It is working very closely with the United Kingdom and our technologies and developing in those areas. All these are very valuable moves forward in the decarbonisation movement and, one hopes, effective moves worldwide against climate violence in the future. I think there is value in this.

The pursuit of international global targets that are legally binding is going to be a very uphill task in relation not merely to China but to other countries as well. The general message coming to us from Beijing and the vast Chinese industrial machine is that they are well on the path to low-carbon technologies, and we are going to work with them on that.

[Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean]

My Lords, I draw attention to my declaration in the register of interests. Is it not true that these are largely state-sponsored Chinese acquisitions? They very often come with promises of collateral benefits for the growth of infrastructure in the countries concerned, such as railways and roads. Have the Government done any assessment of the level of delivery from the Chinese on these collateral benefits? There is evidence that much is promised that will go along with access to these mineral resources, and very often not much is delivered. Would the Minister initiate looking at the evidence for what is really the benefit to the country concerned?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

We follow these things very closely. The noble Baroness is entirely right that in some cases the benefits have disadvantages attached to them. I am not talking so much about their failing to deliver fantastic new developments in sports stadia, schools, railways, government offices and so on, although that certainly happens. In other areas, the benefit for local people turns out to be non-existent because labour is just imported from China and taken away again. There are lessons to be learnt by our Chinese friends, which, again, we can possibly help with, on the basis of our own experience in the past, as to how to conduct operations that bring real benefit to local people and do not just leave them feeling that they have been ripped off.

European Union (Approval of Treaty Amendment Decision) Bill [HL]

Lord Howell of Guildford Excerpts

Wednesday 4th July 2012 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

That the Bill do now pass.

[Lord Owen]

I do not wish to detain the House but, on the point that I raised on Report, the Minister with his customary kindness and courtesy has written me a letter. As I understand it, on that point, there will be no obstacle. In some circumstances, when there might be a crisis in the eurozone, the procedures adopted will allow the Government to use the unanimous procedures for amendment, which were part of the Lisbon treaty, in the European Council and to bring the matter to this House to declare that the amendments regarding a transfer of power are not significant in relation to the UK, while simultaneously, saying that there would be a referendum in this country to deal with other wider measures.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Stoddart of Swindon]

My Lords, I am sorry to intrude further on the time of the House. I shall be brief. I took part in proceedings on the Bill, speaking at Second Reading, in Committee and on Report. The matters raised by the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, today go far beyond what is contained in the Bill. I should very much like to answer the points that he made but, in deference to the next Bill and the time of the House, I will not do so.

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford)]

My Lords, I am rather in the same state of mind as the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, on these matters. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, for his first words confirming the support of Her Majesty’s Opposition for this Bill, although his later remarks, while interesting, seem to be spectacularly out of order; but never mind about that.

In his intervention, the noble Lord, Lord Owen, raised extremely important and wider issues, which I think all in this House would wish to discuss at the appropriate time. However, this Bill is simply concerned with approval to amend Article 136 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union, and it would be inappropriate, perhaps even out of order, for me to stray into a debate on these matters now.

I would emphasise to the noble Lord, Lord Owen, that, as I think he knows, I would be very happy to discuss his ideas on the future of the European Union, the eurozone and the single market—as, if I may say so, set out in his recent book on this subject, which is full of very interesting ideas—and I hope that we will have the opportunity to do that. If he would like to put down a Question, it will be possible to answer in even more detail the specific points that he has raised today. I think that that is the best way forward. However, as there are no amendments to this Bill on Third Reading —although amendments were excellently advanced earlier with great precision by a certain Member of this House—there will be no further amendments. I beg to move that the Bill do now pass.

Bill passed and sent to the Commons.

Syria

Lord Howell of Guildford Excerpts

Tuesday 3rd July 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wright of Richmond]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what action they are taking to prevent ammunition and other military assistance from being provided to Syrian rebels.

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford)]

My Lords, we do not provide arms to the Syrian opposition. A European Union arms embargo is in place. Any EU citizen or company in breach of the EU arms embargo may be subject to prosecution under the laws of each individual member state.

[Lord Wright of Richmond]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for that reply and I am very glad to hear that we are not supplying any military equipment to Syria. I have asked the Minister on several occasions for the Government’s assessment of how many foreign fighters and munitions are being supplied to Syria by other countries. Is the Minister aware that there are persistent reports that fighters from Afghanistan, Libya, Iraq and central Asia, paid for by Saudi Arabia and Qatar, are being infiltrated into Syria with the aim of changing the Shia regime in Damascus? There have also been more recent reports of heavy Saudi troop movements towards the Jordanian and Iraqi borders.

I hope the Minister can assure the House that we will continue to resist any suggestion that NATO might become involved in what has for some time been a Sunni/Shia—if not an Arab/Iranian—dispute. Does the Minister accept that any military intervention from outside, from whatever quarter, in the highly volatile and dangerous situation in Syria could provoke even greater deterioration in the security situation and further complicate Kofi Annan’s extremely difficult mission?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I totally understand the noble Lord’s concern about an escalation and military intervention. With regard to the assessment that he has asked for repeatedly, I cannot, by the nature of the activities he is talking about, give him a precise assessment. We are talking about activities that are inevitably covert and not reported, where statistics are not gathered. As he knows from his enormous experience in the Middle East, rumour is fleet-footed and can rapidly escalate into all kinds of assertions about what is happening. We work very closely with Saudi Arabia and Qatar. We stick very closely to the EU embargo. That is our position and that is what we will continue to do.

[Lord Trimble]

My Lords, can my noble friend confirm that the Turkish aircraft that was shot down recently was shot down by Russian equipment and that there may very well have been Russian personnel involved? Is it not the case that the Russians continue to supply equipment to the Assad regime that enables it to continue to oppress its people?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

Regrettably, I can confirm that the Russians are continuing to supply attack helicopters and equipment to the Syrian regime, which of course is a regime of unparalleled violence that is using its equipment in the most evil and oppressive ways. I am afraid that I cannot give any confirmation as to what weapons actually shot down the Turkish fighter. The Syrians have offered to hold an inquiry with Turkey, but that is being resisted for the moment. It is a very serious matter and the Turks are arguing that it is an attack on NATO as a whole. I am afraid that the circumstances are all in dispute and I cannot confirm the first part of what my noble friend said.

[Lord Triesman]

My Lords, I think the House will understand the concern in the Question of the noble Lord, Lord Wright, and indeed in parts of the Answer; there will be general support for the arms embargo and a desire not to see any increased volatility. However, alongside the concern about the spread of armed conflict, it is wholly understandable that people should seek to defend themselves from a barbaric and murderous regime, and that is another key part of this equation. If we are to sound sincere—and not sanctimonious—what do Her Majesty’s Government believe can be done to assist those people who may have an ambition to acquire munitions, if they are to feel that there is any other hope of achieving at least a degree of safety as the regime tries to kill them?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I share the sentiment behind the noble Lord’s views. He asked what can be done. My right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary has made very clear indeed what can be done, both at the ministerial action group over the weekend in Geneva and at previous meetings, and will continue to make that clear: namely, that we want to find a basis on which we can bring forward a robust resolution by the UN Security Council that has the support of all those, including the Russians and the Chinese, who hitherto have not been ready to display the robust action and condemnation of violence and terror that we would like to see. We would like to see the text for that resolution worked on this week—in fact, we are pressing that it should be so—but there is the obvious obstacle, of which the noble Lord will be aware with his experience, that not all members of the P5 are in agreement.

[Lord Trefgarne]

My Lords, what are the prospects of success for Kofi Annan’s mission and has the Foreign Secretary very firmly supported them, as I believe he has?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

The prospects of success obviously remain clouded while there is no sign of all the warring and killing parties in Syria agreeing to anything. However, the movement that was agreed at the weekend was not all that we would have wished but it was something. The agreement was that there would be a combined move to try to achieve—with the aid of the Kofi Annan plan—a transitional government body, upon which the beginnings of peace and dialogue could be built. So, the Kofi Annan plan is there. It is the path to the transitional government body that has now been agreed. There was disagreement about who should be on that body. This was an undoubted difficulty that we cannot gloss over. However, the Kofi Annan plan is a means to an end and it is still in place.

[Baroness Falkner of Margravine]

My Lords, given that the plan agreed this weekend has a mutual consent clause that bars the US and Russia from either getting rid of President Assad or keeping him there, it is evident that the plan will not go anywhere. Will the UK Government work with the UN to review our sanctions regime in light of the fact that 40,000 fighters now belong to the Free Syrian Army and the carnage is continuing unabated? Should we not review this to allow the Syrians to defend their wives and children rather than be massacred in cold blood?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

These again are sentiments one totally agrees with, and of course we have some pathway forward with the European Union. Within the European Union, we are all agreed to apply and strengthen the sanctions and we are working all the time to see how that can be done. Once we get to the United Nations level, we are back with the difficulty that my noble friend, from her experience, understands full well—I know that she does. This is that, if we cannot get the wholehearted agreement through the United Nations Security Council of those who are supplying arms and of those who apparently resist the adequate condemnation of the slaughter, we cannot get the resolution in place. We will continue to work extremely hard to break through on this matter but we have not got there yet.

European Union (Approval of Treaty Amendment Decision) Bill [HL]

Lord Howell of Guildford Excerpts

Wednesday 27th June 2012 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

That the Report be now received.

[Lord Owen]

My Lords, I know that other important business awaits so I will be very brief. However, there is a procedural question of some importance under the European Union Act 2011, which we are discussing, and the Explanatory Note relating to referendums.

Treaty referendum is becoming a very live subject now that the Finance Minister of Germany has announced that there could be a referendum on a rather more urgent timescale than has been considered—presumably in relationship to the single European banking supervision system which is being proposed by some people. However, my point goes much wider than that. Under the circumstances, it is possible for a Minister under the simplified revision procedure to make a statement under Section 5 of the Act that, although a transfer of power from the UK to the EU falling within Section 4 of this Act has taken place, the proposed change is considered not significant. There are circumstances in which it might be very urgent, during the present crisis over the eurozone, for the British Government to give powers, and I think that they have overall adopted a very conciliatory attitude to those members of the eurozone to the effect that we do not wish to stand in their way on making changes that we may not ourselves wish for but which are related purely to the eurozone. So it is quite possible that a decision might come that is not considered significant in terms of the Act, but if passed by this House would allow the European Union treaties to be amended and action to take place urgently. That might be helpful.

However, in the same circumstances, the Government, not using the 2011 Act, might consider that the implications of these changes are of such importance that they wish to call a referendum under the general powers, although not in a way that would stop the rest of the European Union living under the treaty amendments they had agreed. When the Bill comes back on Third Reading, will it possible to clarify the not-significant clause in a helpful way towards the European Union? We could also hold our own referendum under different legislation which, if you like, would deal with our own political problems but would not stand in the way of a resolution to the eurozone crisis, which we might all agree might be necessary in a matter of days.

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford)]

My Lords, the noble Lord has raised wider issues of great importance, ones that your Lordships will no doubt wish to debate. Indeed, it is possible that he may have an opportunity to raise them at Third Reading. However, this Bill is concerned merely with amending Article 136 of the Lisbon treaty, and there being no amendments to it on Report, I beg to move.

Report received.