Pakistan
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The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford)
My Lords, Pakistan remains an important partner in the fight against terrorism. As my right honourable friend the Prime Minister stated following his meeting with President Zardari on 4 July last,
“working together to defeat terrorism in all its forms is very much top of our agenda”.
The al-Qaeda core has been severely weakened over the last six months. It is important that the UK and Pakistan, together with other key international partners such as the United States, continue to work together to disrupt terrorist groups which threaten all our interests.
Lord Ahmed
I thank the Minister for his reply. Will he join me in sending condolences to the families of 26 Pakistani soldiers who were killed by a NATO air strike a few days ago? Is he aware that Pakistan has lost over 30,000 civilians and over 5,000 soldiers—more than any other country in the world—as well as $75 billion to $80 billion, and that Pakistan has hosted over 6 million refugees from Afghanistan? Separating the sacrifice made by the people of Pakistan from Ali Baba and his 40 companions, will the Minister assure the House that the British taxpayers’ money allocated to DfID for education and training teachers will not end up in this individual’s private accounts in Switzerland?
Lord Howell of Guildford
Yes, my Lords, as regards condolences, I certainly join the noble Lord. In fact, my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary spoke to the Foreign Secretary of Pakistan only the other day to offer his deepest condolences. A full investigation of that really tragic and dreadful incident is, of course, under way. I hope Pakistan will participate fully in that investigation. The United States has expressed its regret at the loss of life.
As regards the suffering faced by Pakistan, I think we all acknowledge the colossal strain on Pakistan, its society and all its citizens, with the conditions they face not only on the terrorist side, but also through the visitations of floods and other challenges, all of which add great difficulty to Pakistan’s administration. As for our aid, I can assure the noble Lord that all our aid is independently evaluated and scrutinised under our UK Aid Transparency Guarantee, and that certainly applies to all aid to Pakistan as well.
Lord Stirrup
My Lords, will the Minister agree that the most telling contribution Pakistan could make to global security would be to improve levels of effective governance, economic growth and employment within its own borders, and that the international community should not allow its frustration over other issues, however understandable, to divert it from this strategic focus in its engagement with Pakistan?
Lord Howell of Guildford
Yes, that is an extremely wise observation, and I think that Her Majesty’s Government would totally agree with it.
Lord Avebury
My Lords, I add my condolences to the relatives of those who lost their lives in the tragic event last week. I ask the Minister whether consideration will be given to postponing the Bonn meeting to allow Pakistan to participate. Could its agenda perhaps be extended to cover discussion of the findings of the NATO inquiry into this tragedy, including an investigation into the allegations made by Major General Ishfaq Nadeem, that it was impossible for NATO not to have known that it was attacking Pakistani posts, and that NATO had ignored mutually agreed communications procedures?
Lord Howell of Guildford
No, I do not think it would be right to seek postponement of the Bonn meeting which is coming up, and we urge Pakistan to join. I know that in its dismay at this whole event it has thought about not joining, and in a sense that is understandable. But one looks for second thoughts and hopes that Pakistan will join the meeting. It is not a meeting organised by or about NATO, it is about the whole future of Afghanistan. Pakistani involvement would be valuable and we strongly encourage it. We stick to the timetable that has been planned.
Lord West of Spithead
My Lords, while I was Minister for Security for three years, the country of gravest concern to me globally was Pakistan. Notwithstanding the huge efforts, huge sacrifices and so forth that have been made in Pakistan, does the Minister not agree that one of the greatest risks to that country is violent, extremist terrorism within and around its borders and not threats from India? The fact that India is being looked at by some people within the ISI and the army as the greatest threat has diverted its efforts.
Lord Howell of Guildford
The noble Lord makes an extremely good point. Pakistan has many problems but very high on the list are the terrorist threat and its borders with Afghanistan, as we all know. As to relations with India, we notice that India and Pakistan have recently been talking. We greatly welcome and encourage their dialogue, which we hope will lead to a less tense development on that side and therefore less distraction from the main aims that the noble Lord has rightly identified.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
My Lords, accepting that Pakistan has been in the front line in the war on terror for the past 10 years, I seek our Government’s assurance that strategically, militarily and tactically on the ground Pakistan’s role will not be diminished and that it will continue to play an integrated role in the war against terror—not watching on the sidelines but being involved and engaged fully to prevent the kind of incidents that we saw recently with attacks on Pakistani forces within Pakistani sovereign territory. I join in extending condolences to the families who suffered loss as a result of that act.
Lord Howell of Guildford
I am sure that my noble friend’s condolences will be appreciated. These horrific things do happen, and we await an investigation of what on earth went wrong for this to have occurred. Full integration in counterterrorism is very much our purpose. As the House knows, we have counterterrorist discussions with Pakistan, although I cannot reveal the details, and we are determined to use its skills and intelligence availability in the united war against terror.
Arab Spring
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Baroness Cox
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their assessment of the implications of the Arab spring for religious minorities in the countries concerned.
The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford)
My Lords, it is hard to generalise, given the differing circumstances in each country, but, that said, religious minorities have clearly suffered grievous oppression, often predating the so-called Arab spring, in Egypt, Iran, Iraq and, indeed, elsewhere. Egypt, in particular, has witnessed an upsurge in vicious sectarian violence and we continue to urge the Egyptian authorities to establish conditions in which all discrimination on the basis of religion is prevented. We deplore all discrimination against religious minorities and all constraints on their freedom to practise their faiths.
Baroness Cox
My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply. Does he agree that in these early days of the so-called Arab spring, the impact on religious minorities has so far been favourable for the Jewish and Christian communities in Tunisia, but, as he has already indicated, cause for deep concern in Egypt? Although the Baha’i community has so far been spared violence there, attacks against Coptic Christians have numbered more than 44 since 25 January, and a recent report by Amnesty International claims that discrimination and attacks against the Copts have actually increased since the Supreme Council of the Armed Forces took power. In addition to encouraging the Egyptian leadership to ensure religious freedom for all its religious minorities, will the Government call to account those who are perpetrating the violence?
Lord Howell of Guildford
The noble Baroness is absolutely right in pointing to the violence in Egypt, a matter that must concern all those who believe in freedom of religious worship. We continue to urge the Egyptian authorities on the prime importance of pluralist and non-sectarian policies. The Egyptians are moving towards bringing in a new unified law that will be even-handed between Copts and Muslims, or so we understand. They are also talking about an anti-discrimination law. Those who can be established as being guilty of some of these nastier events should certainly be brought before the courts, but that is a matter for the Egyptian legal authorities.
Lord Anderson of Swansea
How does the Minister respond to critics such as Ann Widdecombe, who say that there are double standards on the part of the Prime Minister in that, quite properly, we withdraw aid from Uganda because it discriminates against homosexuals but do not use our aid policy against countries that manifestly discriminate against Christians and other religious minorities?
Lord Howell of Guildford
It is not quite correct that the withdrawal of aid is geared to particular attitudes on policies in the way that the noble Lord describes. Support for Governments through aid is brought into question where they are upholding policies that we clearly regard as highly undesirable and objectionable. It does not mean to say that aid does not continue through non-governmental agencies and, as directly as we can organise it, to good development causes and projects—indeed, even in support of private sector operations. These things can be done without having to uphold the views of Governments. The noble Lord says that that is double standards, but in the real world one has to talk about selectivity and to make selections and choices. Some Governments are clearly ones whom we want to support; some are ones whom we would have great reluctance to do anything to enhance or entrench.
The Lord Bishop of Exeter
My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for his insistence on the importance of constitutional guarantees and anti-discrimination measures, but does he recognise the importance—I think he has begun to go there—of remedying some of the institutional shortcomings that limit human development and social cohesion? I am aware of the high levels of economic disfranchisement among some of the religious minorities throughout the Middle East that risk inflaming and adding to the fuel of a volatile social mix in some of the poorest areas, particularly where religious communities live in close proximity to one another. How are such considerations informing government policy towards the region?
Lord Howell of Guildford
The right reverend Prelate is correct that a whole nexus of undesirable social customs and pressures creates the bad conditions in which this kind of discrimination can occur. Our policies, such as our Arab partnership policy, contain specific modules or elements that are designed, for instance, to support the rights and position of women, to promote family law in every possible way and to challenge some of the highly coercive and illiberal practices of the past. There are difficulties, as the right reverend Prelate will appreciate, but we must not go around intruding heavily on the practices of other countries. Why should we do that? However, we must certainly support and encourage the kinds of practices that bring equality and decent values to countries where, in the past, darker customs have prevailed.
Baroness Falkner of Margravine
My Lords, have the Government had any consultations with these Middle East Governments about reforming personal status laws so that the 14 million Christians who live in the Middle East might have access to divorce in civil courts if they wish to do so, rather than having to convert to Islam or other religions?
Lord Howell of Guildford
Those issues come into our fairly constant dialogue and exchanges with the countries of the Middle East as they go through reform processes at varying speeds and to varying degrees. That is the content of our exchanges in seeking to support and encourage the peaceful, democratic, liberalised development and opening up of these countries, which is directly in our own interest as a great trading nation as well.
Lord Alton of Liverpool
My Lords, I am grateful. Does the Minister agree that there are worrying parallels with the situation in Iraq and Palestine, where large numbers of Christian minorities from the ancient churches have had to flee? Has he seen the figures published by the Egyptian Union of Human Rights Organisations showing that over 100,000 Coptic Christians have left the country since March this year—I declare a non-financial interest as president of the UK Coptic Association—and in particular the quotation from its director that:
“Copts are not emigrating voluntarily, they are coerced into that by threats and intimidation of hard-line Salafists, and the lack of protection they are getting from the Egyptian regime”?
Lord Howell of Guildford
I have seen a range of figures, although whether I have seen the specific reports that the noble Lord refers to, I am not so sure. I am the first to agree that these are large and worrying figures. The noble Lord mentioned Iraq. Although I do not think the Arab spring has operated to the particular detriment of religious minorities there, there have been a number of targeted attacks on minority communities—Christian, Yazidi, Shabak and others. These are worrying matters and we are constantly raising them with the Baghdad Government. As for the Egyptian situation, I have already indicated our extreme concern and our continuing dialogue, and that will certainly continue.
Lockerbie
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Lord Selkirk of Douglas
To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they will continue to make representations to the National Transitional Council of Libya to make available any evidence in their possession concerning the attack on Pan Am flight 103 over Lockerbie in 1988 to the Lord Advocate and the Scottish police to assist their investigation.
The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford)
My Lords, the Government will continue to support the Dumfries and Galloway Constabulary’s investigation into the Lockerbie bombing. We will approach Libya’s newly formed transitional Government about getting the Dumfries and Galloway police back to Libya at the earliest opportunity to take forward their investigations. The National Transitional Council chairman, Abdul Jalil, has assured my right honourable friend the Prime Minister that the new Libyan authorities will co-operate with the UK on this and other ongoing investigations.
Lord Selkirk of Douglas
While I welcome the Minister’s statement, does he believe that the recent capture of Colonel Gaddafi’s intelligence chief, Abdullah al-Senussi, and of the intelligence archives in Tripoli, may finally provide the vital information that would assist the Lord Advocate with his ongoing inquiries? I ask this question as one of the two former Ministers who were at the crime scene within a few hours and who met some of the relatives shortly afterwards. In order to bring closure to the families of 270 victims, is it not highly desirable that they should learn from any new evidence exactly what happened 23 years ago, and precisely what the background was to this monstrous crime?
Lord Howell of Guildford
Yes, it is desirable and yes, indeed, it was the most monstrous crime. We are seeking confirmation from the Libyan Government regarding the reported detention of Abdullah al-Senussi. We have been clear that no effort should be spared in bringing him to justice. Al-Senussi’s arrest, if confirmed, would offer an opportunity to uncover the truth behind some of the former regime’s dreadful crimes. As I just said, the Government will continue to support the Dumfries and Galloway Constabulary’s investigation into the bombing. We would want any new evidence to be made available to it and indeed to the Lord Advocate. I am confident that the new Libyan Government will act in accordance with Chairman Jalil’s commitment to co-operate with the UK on this and other investigations, and bring closure to the concerns and misery of the families of the victims.
Lord Steel of Aikwood
My Lords, would my noble friend agree that it would also shed light on this matter if the report of the Scottish Criminal Cases Review Commission were published in full, so far as is possible?
Lord Howell of Guildford
Of course, there has been the report of Sir Gus O’Donnell. It has been placed in the Library and it was fully discussed when it was produced some weeks ago. Further light needs to be shed on this and I am confident that, with the full assistance of the new Libyan Government, we will get the papers and the evidence to show exactly what was said and by whom.
Lord Empey
My Lords, can the Minister tell us that in addition to pursuing the issue of Lockerbie, the Government will rigorously and vigorously pursue the issue of compensation for all UK victims who were damaged by weapons supplied to the IRA by the Gaddafi regime and that the Government themselves will lead those negotiations rather than leaving them to third parties?
Lord Howell of Guildford
At present we are looking at all possible options with the Libyan Government to get a resolution on the legacy issues, including this one, which is certainly a very high priority. It is very early days for the new Libyan Government as they have only just been appointed, but we want to see a broad proposal for embracing questions of compensation, reconciliation and, indeed, investment in Northern Ireland. We are trying to develop a broad approach with, and led by, the Libyan Government.
Lord Elystan-Morgan
My Lords, does the Minister agree that it is utterly natural and inevitable that parliaments the world over should seek to have as much light as possible cast upon the perpetrators of the Lockerbie bombing? However, technically speaking, a request should be made formally by the Scottish Parliament themselves—bearing in mind, of course, the transfer of jurisdiction in relation to that. As for this Parliament, could the same principle not also apply to casting light upon those who were responsible for the murder of WPC Yvonne Fletcher?
Lord Howell of Guildford
On the second point about WPC Yvonne Fletcher, that is most certainly so. We are in touch with the Metropolitan Police about reopening their investigations into the perpetrators of that hideous crime. On the former question, the decision was made by the devolved Scottish Government and it is a matter for them to pursue. We have indicated that the Government in London will give full assistance to the devolved Government in pursuing their inquiries.
Lord Stoddart of Swindon
My Lords, can the noble Lord inform us about the state of health of Mr Al Megrahi, who was released by the Scottish authorities on the grounds that he had only six months to live?
Lord Howell of Guildford
We have passed a request from the devolved Administration to the Libyan chargé d’affaires in London asking that the supervision arrangements of Al Megrahi’s licence are observed. Part of the investigation by the Dumfries and Galloway police will also embrace the question of his condition, but we are awaiting the precise details of his health from the Libyan Government now.
Lord Selkirk of Douglas
Does the Minister accept that the Lord Advocate has put in a formal request to the National Transitional Council and that a statement has been issued by the Crown Office to the effect that the trial court of Mr Al Megrahi accepted that he did not act alone?
Lord Howell of Guildford
I am not sure that I can comment on my noble friend’s second point, but it is certainly correct that the Lord Advocate has put in a formal request, and indeed has made that absolutely clear to my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary. We are collaborating closely on this.
Colombia
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Baroness Coussins
To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether their discussions with the President of Colombia during his visit will include the subject of monitoring the human rights and environmental impacts of British and multinational corporations engaged in mining activities in Colombia.
The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford)
My Lords, discussions covered a range of issues, including human rights. We agreed a joint declaration on human rights. We held a “green growth” event, in which we discussed the importance of environmental impact assessments for the mining industry. Our embassy in Colombia was a founding member of the Colombian Mining and Energy Committee, which includes government, industry and civil society observers. It looks at compliance with the voluntary principles on security and human rights.
Baroness Coussins
My Lords, what advice do the Government provide for British companies operating in Colombia to help them to comply with the ILO Convention No. 169, which gives indigenous populations the right to free and informed consent to projects that will affect them? There have been disturbing reports of companies that wish to exploit indigenous lands by colluding with misinformation campaigns and forced mass displacement. Can the Minister assure the House that no British companies are involved in such activities and, instead, that they are encouraged to help the new Colombian Government to deliver on their commitments to human rights?
Lord Howell of Guildford
I can assure the noble Baroness that the embassy meets regularly with representatives of indigenous communities and discusses these things. More specifically, as with other embassies, we encourage and expect British companies to respect human rights in the places where they do business. Both the UKTI and the Bogota embassy provide advice, including on prior consultation, for British companies to ensure that this happens. The embassy also has monitored very closely two particular companies where there were concerns, and I could certainly inform the noble Baroness, if she so wishes, at any time on the details of how they got on. But the answer broadly is that, yes, this is the way we wish to move and, although there are British interests in some of these companies, they have been under very close monitoring and pressure and there has been some improvement.
Lord Avebury
Is my noble friend aware that the UN special rapporteur on indigenous peoples said on 31 October at the Peace Brigades International conference in London that it was important to assist indigenous peoples to build their capacity for negotiation? Would DfID consider funding the training of indigenous peoples in Colombia to develop their skills and knowledge so they can negotiate effectively with political authorities and multinational companies so as to produce development agreements that protect and advance their interests?
Lord Howell of Guildford
As I just told the noble Baroness, officials in our embassy meet regularly with indigenous and Afro-Colombian communities. Additionally, the embassy is funding a project in Colombia aimed at developing the role of organisations in protecting the rights to the territories. We are also providing technical assistance to the Colombian Government to work towards effective implementation of the new land and victims law, which aims to return land to huge numbers of displaced people and compensate victims. We are also funding projects to support access to justice and protection of human rights defenders, and we will continue to provide support for the Colombian Government wherever possible.
Lord Judd
Is it not the case that in situations like Colombia the absence of human rights leads to further instability and alienation and that it is absolutely essential, not only in Colombia but across the world and, indeed, within the United Kingdom itself, to recognise that stability and security require people to be able to fulfil their potential in a situation founded on the belief in and conviction of human rights?
Lord Howell of Guildford
The noble Lord, who has campaigned endlessly and bravely in these many areas, is absolutely right; human rights and human responsibilities—closely associated with the necessary degree of trust and investment—produce higher living standards. The whole package goes together nowadays in this increasingly transparent world; it cannot be avoided. Governments around the world will have to face it. We shall do our best here, both to face our own conditions and indeed to encourage others.
Baroness Hooper
My Lords, would my noble friend the Minister not agree that the President and his Foreign Secretary, by coming to Parliament to meet and talk with parliamentarians, as he did on Monday, and by meeting NGOs and lobby groups specifically about human rights, as he did yesterday, demonstrated a willingness to listen and to take action to remedy the inheritance and consequences of violence, terrorism and drug trafficking that have overshadowed his country in recent years? Should we not now concentrate on improving our trade and cultural links with Colombia in order to improve the lot of the people and help them to return to normal relations with the rest of the world?
Lord Howell of Guildford
Yes, President Santos has just had a very successful visit here, and my noble friend is quite right that he has an active reform agenda, which he has carried forward with vigour, and which is moving his country to what some people call a “new Colombia”. It is certainly a very dynamic country, one with increasing trade and linkages with this country, and one that we are determined to befriend and support in its reform phase. So yes, President Santos has acted with vigour on the human rights front and is carrying forward changes that were undoubtedly needed.
Lord Stern of Brentford
My Lords, would the Minister agree that conflict and insecurity are deeply damaging for both human rights and environmental protection, and that the level of conflict and insecurity in Colombia over the past 10 years has been dramatically lower than in the preceding 40 or 50? Would he also allow me to observe that President Santos is an alumnus of the LSE? I chaired his presentation to the LSE yesterday and these questions of human rights and environmental protection were discussed very frankly and directly.
Lord Howell of Guildford
Yes, I certainly allow the noble Lord to observe that valid and very constructive point; it is certainly so. It is also, of course, a fact that the revolutionary guerrilla movement, the so-called FARC, has grown weaker over the years. Indeed, noble Lords will have read the reports only a few weeks ago about the killing, finally, of the terrorist leader Alfonso Cano. The FARC operation goes on, but in a much reduced way, hidden away in the mountains, and President Santos has been the first to point out that its aims are pointless, and that it should come to peace and negotiation and have its grievances properly and democratically aired. He is taking a lead in, as I say, a new Colombia.
EU: Integration
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The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford)
My Lords, my right honourable friend the Prime Minister has described the present situation as,
“an opportunity to begin to refashion the EU so it better serves this nation’s interests”.
We want to see a European Union, in his words,
“with the flexibility of a network, not the rigidity of a bloc”.
The future shape of the EU might well involve more integration in some areas and between some countries, and less in others. Of course, the Government have also made it clear that they wish to see no treaty changes that transfer power or competencies from the UK to the EU in this Parliament.
Lord Pearson of Rannoch
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord. However, the British people have seen through the fiction that the European Union guarantees peace and safeguards jobs. So I have to press the Government: what is it really for? Put slightly differently, I suppose we can all agree that other international bodies such as the United Nations or NATO have an identifiable purpose, but can the Government tell us why we need the European Union at all, not to mention its very own disastrous euro?
Lord Howell of Guildford
I think the British people have a sensible and balanced appreciation of the virtues of living in the European continental area: that it is a mighty single market; that our influence in it is useful; and that when it comes to trade bargaining with the rising powers of Asia, Latin America and Africa, it is very useful to have a bit of muscle. That is a perfectly sensible and common-sense view that, I suspect, prevails in the minds of most of the British people. They may not like some of the aspects of the EU—many of us find these things irritating—but on the whole it seems a reasonable grouping in which to be deeply and actively involved, and that is where we stand.
Lord Tomlinson
My Lords, would the noble Lord agree with me that the only alternative to the word “integration” used in the Question is disintegration or stagnation, and that our future lies in an integrated Europe—within the confines of some of the qualifications that he made—and that any question of encouraging disintegration would be wrong?
Lord Howell of Guildford
To avoid the debate getting too polarised, of course, there are degrees of integration. In this decentralised age, compared with the 20th century, where centralisation and central state dominance were the fashion, people are looking for more flexibility and decentralisation in all sensibly run organisations, including the EU. There may be some areas, as I indicated in my opening Answer, where a degree of integration is more sensible as an alternative to chaos. However, there may be many other areas where the time has come for decentralisation and a returning of powers closer to the people.
The Marquess of Lothian
My Lords, how would the Minister define a European Union that is more of a network than a bloc?
Lord Howell of Guildford
My noble friend is asking for an answer that would take longer than the patience of the House of Lords could tolerate. The simple answer is that a bloc tends to be a congealed and sometimes compelled form of integration under tight central control, while a network is a much more modern, less fragile and less rigid structure in which exchanges of views and dialogues in addressing new issues can constantly be adjusted in the light of changing circumstances.
Lord Anderson of Swansea
My Lords, do not the ambitions set out by the Minister depend essentially on the concurrence of our partners? What expectation does he have that that will be forthcoming? Is it not a fact that as a result of the economic and financial crisis, there will be strong pressures for more integration in certain sectors? We as a Government and as a country have a choice, either arrogantly to rail against them from outside, or to be part of them and seek to bow them in a way that we want, including on principles of subsidiarity and proportionality.
Lord Howell of Guildford
Some of those aspects are correct, but the noble Lord overemphasises the polarity and the rigidity of the choice. There is no doubt that one of the propositions that is current throughout the eurozone is that the only way forward is towards fiscal union. Indeed, if that is a way of avoiding total chaos in the European markets, it is in our interest, too, that the process should be non-chaotic. That is perfectly clear. However, in other areas, as I said earlier, some degree of decentralisation and flexibility might play a much more useful part in making the European Union fit for purpose in the 21st century.
Baroness Falkner of Margravine
Would it help my noble friend, in answer to the question of the noble Marquess, Lord Lothian, if the networked Europe that he talked about was a flexible EU of variable geometry, in which those that want to join the eurozone can do so, and those that want to deepen the single market for a more competitive open trading system to the benefit of all our citizens can also participate in the decision-making? Should that not be the way forward, not fretting about variable speeds and referendums?
Lord Howell of Guildford
I do not know about my noble friend’s remarks on referenda. There is a case for them on certain occasions, as the Government have made clear. However, the broader issue she described is not very different from what we had in the past. This nation and several others are not members of the eurozone; others are. There is absolutely no reason why we should not co-operate very closely with those who are in or out of the zone in what is in effect a multi-speed Europe, as long as we recognise that we work together in a co-operative pattern within the Union to address constructively the very dangerous challenges from the outside world.
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon
My Lords, would the Minister agree that there are dangers with a two-speed Europe, and that if a inner eurozone were to be created, it would be in the interests of the United Kingdom to be present at all discussions that took place within that eurozone, even if we were not at the table?
Lord Howell of Guildford
Again, I do not necessarily believe that it would be a sort of inner and outer pattern or that the inner zone would necessarily move at a faster speed than the outer. After all, as someone pointed out to me, if you want to get around Paris you go on the Périphérique and not through the middle. So it may not be quite like that, but obviously we want to be closely involved in the evolution of the European Union and its refashioning, to quote my right honourable friend the Prime Minister, and we certainly will be. One of the things we should discuss together, not just bilaterally between London and Brussels but in the interests of the whole Union, is a more balanced approach as to the powers and competences between the nation states and essential EU authorities. That, I gather, is also the policy of the Labour Party.
Syria
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Lord Risby
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what action they are taking regarding the current situation in Syria through the United Nations and neighbouring countries.
The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford)
My Lords, the United Kingdom has been at the forefront of international activity on Syria. To raise the international pressure on the regime further, we have tabled a draft human rights resolution in the UN General Assembly Third Committee. We have also made clear the need for firmer action in the UN Security Council. The UK has been active in welcoming and supporting the Arab League, and is in regular discussion with key players in the region, including Turkey.
Lord Risby
My Lords, as we have watched with horror the murder and mayhem that has descended upon the people of Syria in the last eight months or so, we should nevertheless remind ourselves of a long-standing historic tradition in Syria, unique in the region, of quite exceptional tolerance between the different religious communities. Therefore, when my noble friend the Minister and his ministerial colleagues have discussions with our Turkish friends and the Arab League at the United Nations, and most particularly with the Syrian opposition, can the clearest possible reassurances be given publicly to the minorities, for whom this is an extremely fearful and difficult time, that in the event of a change of government in Syria, which now seems increasingly likely, their rights and way of life will be fully protected?
Lord Howell of Guildford
The short answer to my noble friend is yes. Those are very important points and have certainly been brought to the fore in all these discussions, including those that took place only a few hours ago between my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary and several opposition leaders in Syria. Our view is that minorities would be best protected if the Syrian Government themselves would stop their violent and oppressive activities and the slaughter of many of their citizens, and at every point we have sought to encourage the opposition leaders to engage with minorities and maintain non-sectarian approaches as far as they conceivably can.
Lord Wright of Richmond
Perhaps I may remind the Minister of a question that I asked on 8 June this year, in which I warned of the danger of calling for the overthrow of a system of government that is, for all its faults, a secular system of government. On that point, I endorse very much what the noble Lord, Lord Risby, has said. The Minister may have heard on the BBC very recently the Syrian Orthodox Archbishop of Aleppo making precisely that warning. Does the Minister agree that while we are absolutely right to continue to put pressure on the Syrian Government to respect human rights, to which they are of course fully committed under the international convention on human rights, we should nevertheless watch with caution the motives of some other Governments who are calling for the removal of President Bashar al-Assad, not so much because of the slaughter of civilians on the Syrian streets but because the Syrian Government are an ally of both Iran and Hezbollah?
Lord Howell of Guildford
The noble Lord is absolutely right that there are many complexities, risks and concerns, both in keeping the present regime and, indeed, in the removal of it. Who knows whether the violence and horrors of the present situation will evaporate and be removed by a replacement? There may well be difficulties ahead. However, we are encouraged by the fact that the Arab League has taken the position it has, of criticising and challenging the Syrian Government—indeed, of expelling them from the Arab League—and taking a very firm stand for the future. We want to see the Arab League take a lead on the whole Syrian situation and indeed we are working at the United Nations to see that it has a stronger say so that we can mobilise the full force of the global community for change.
Lord Triesman
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Risby, asks the right question, and at a key moment. I greatly appreciate the work that the Government have done on the human rights resolution, and I hope that it might be possible, with the visit of the President of Turkey, to pursue some of those arguments as well in the near future. Does the Minister think that there is scope for an escalating pattern of sanctions, which could be agreed at the UN; for the encouragement of appropriate bodies which nominate people, to remove Syria from some of the multinational bodies on which it still sits; and for an extension in issuing warrants under the rubric “crimes against humanity”, in order to increase the pressure on what is an obnoxious regime?
Lord Howell of Guildford
There can certainly be an escalation of pressures. Indeed, that is what we are involved in with the new EU measures that we are proposing, which will come forward on 1 December—the week after next—and the UN Human Rights Commission report, which is appearing next week, as well as doing what we can to carry forward the possibility of a UN Security Council resolution. However, one has to be realistic. In the UN Security Council there remains very great reluctance and indeed obstruction to advancing any Security Council agreement on a full resolution for further action. We are constantly working to overcome that, but it is there. That of course applies to the International Criminal Court aspects as well because, as Syria is not a signatory to the ICC, it requires a UN Security Council resolution to authorise the ICC to take matters forward in respect of what the noble Lord suggested. That faces the same difficulty at the moment. We will try to overcome it, but there are obvious obstacles.
Bahrain
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Lord Hoyle
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what representations they have made to Bahrain regarding a fair retrial in the civilian courts for the 20 doctors and nurses detained in relation to the protests there.
The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford)
My Lords, on hearing of the sentences imposed on the medical and nursing professionals by a Bahraini special tribunal on 29 September 2010, my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary led the international criticism by issuing a statement of the UK’s deep concern at the disproportionate sentences. He called on the Bahraini judicial authorities to follow due process carefully and transparently. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Alistair Burt, also called the Bahraini ambassador in London the next day to reiterate our concern, and the UK’s national security adviser also raised the case of the medical staff during his recent visit to Bahrain.
Lord Hoyle
I thank the Minister for that reply. I hope he will agree that when we condemn the violation of human rights, we should do so with all countries that do that. Will he do his best to use this country’s influence with Bahrain to ensure that when the trial of these people comes about it is fair and transparent and is witnessed by observers from different countries?
Lord Howell of Guildford
Yes, we will certainly do that. One can draw some cautious optimism from the fact that the retrials are by civilian courts. The military courts have been closed and certain detainees have been released—not in this case, of course. A substantial commission report on human rights is about to be published next week that will cover all aspects of the kinds of concerns that we have and the noble Lord rightly has about what has been going on in Bahrain.
Baroness Falkner of Margravine
My Lords, on the subject of the international commission of inquiry, which is due to come out on 23 November, will my noble friend tell the House whether he has complete confidence in the impartiality of this commission? He will know that the opposition parties in Bahrain were very concerned at the delay in the publication of the commission’s report and fear that there had been external pressure for the commission to revisit its findings?
Lord Howell of Guildford
I believe my noble friend’s concerns to be unfounded. There were delays. It is a massive report and there were sheer technical problems in getting it forward in due course. As for impartiality, it is by all accounts—we have not seen the full detail yet—a substantial report that has gone into everything in great detail. One of the members is the distinguished British jurist, Sir Nigel Rodley, and there are other distinguished jurists and impartial members on it as well. I am fairly confident that this will be a very substantial report. It will be published at the same time as it is presented to the authorities in Bahrain and I think it will carry matters forward substantially.
UNESCO
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Lord Rennard
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what representations they have made to the Government of the United States following the withdrawal of United States funding from UNESCO.
The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford)
My Lords, the United Kingdom has urged the United States to pay its assessed contributions to UNESCO until at least the date of Palestinian accession to UNESCO was decided. It is not yet clear which programmes might be affected by the US decision to withhold its assessed contributions to UNESCO.
Lord Rennard
My Lords, does the Minister agree that it is simply morally wrong potentially to withdraw funding from UNESCO projects that may save thousands of lives in future tsunamis, educate people about the Holocaust and foster free media in some of the newly emerging democracies of the Middle East in retaliation for others simply disagreeing with the United States about Palestinian membership of UNESCO? Does the Minister think that we should tell our friends in the United States that this is the way to lose friends and fail to influence people?
Lord Howell of Guildford
We do think it wrong—and we have raised this with our United States colleagues—that the United States should not merely consider withdrawing its contribution for the future, which, it is argued, is necessarily triggered by existing law in the United States, but should stop the contribution that was already due this year and on which UNESCO has already made spending plans. Obviously, the sudden withdrawal of commitments that have already been made will cause grave difficulties. A lot of people will lose their jobs and UNESCO has had to freeze all new plans. That is wrong; I agree with my noble friend. We raised this matter with the State Department and the point is being debated. Of course, the matter will be put to Congress, which is the driving force in this issue, but the general point that my noble friend makes is quite right.
Baroness Deech
Does the Minister recall Britain’s withdrawal from UNESCO for a long period in the 1980s, which unfortunately was part of the continuing use of UNESCO as a political and ideological tool? Can pressure be brought to bear on UNESCO to do something about Syrian behaviour, given Syria's recent speech to UNESCO about the importance of youth and women's education and so on, which seems a bit odd in the current circumstances?
Lord Howell of Guildford
The kind of pressure that can be brought to bear on UNESCO, and may have to be brought to bear as it faces the huge cut of 22 per cent in its budget, is to suggest that it should streamline and improve its administration. There have been improvements; it has made progress, and it is focusing on some very valuable programmes, as my noble friend pointed out. On the specific issue of Syria and Syrian projects, I cannot comment as I have no details. I will look into the matter. Broadly, there is now a British member on the UNESCO board, and we believe that UNESCO, which had some difficulties in the past, is improving and can focus on valuable things, of which the tsunami warning programme is a very good example.
Baroness Falkner of Margravine
Does my noble friend accept that as UNESCO's new Secretary-General is attempting to put it on to a much more streamlined and efficient path, the shortfall in funding will only undermine her position? Have the UK Government been in touch with other Security Council members to see whether they, as well as the G20, might be able to assist in making up the shortfall, at least on a temporary basis until UNESCO can revise its budget?
Lord Howell of Guildford
It is early days for that. We will have to see whether the United States follows through on what appears to be its intention not merely to withdraw future funds but current funds as well. A very large number of countries—107—voted for Palestine's membership of UNESCO. There were 52 abstentions and 14 countries voted against. Therefore it was a fairly solid commitment to Palestinian membership. On the question of funding, we will have to wait and see how the matter turns out. Certainly there are major difficulties to be faced and resolved.
Lord Liddle
My Lords, noble Lords on this side of the House all share the concerns about the future of UNESCO and agree with the Minister’s comments. The fundamental issue behind this question is how strongly we are prepared to make clear to the United States our difference of view on the recognition of Palestinian statehood. While the Government’s position was sympathetic, it was ultimately a decision to have no position—to vote neither for nor against. How does this advance the peace process and the cause of a two-state solution, given the present stalemate and Israel's very recent decision to announce further settlements that will be deeply counterproductive? Should we not be more robust on these issues?
Lord Howell of Guildford
That is, of course, a broader question. The noble Lord is absolutely right that the question of Palestinian statehood lies behind the question of whether partial arrangements, as it were, for statehood should be made by Palestine applying to various UN organisations, of which UNESCO is one. It is the judgment and view of Her Majesty’s Government that the way forward must be by negotiation for the emergence of the Palestinian state. We reserve the right to recognise the Palestinian state at the moment of our choosing. We take the view that a fragmented application to UNSECO and other bodies is probably a mistake and will delay negotiation. We also take the view that, if the matter is to go to the Security Council—I say “if”—and if then, as is almost certain, the Americans vetoed it, that, too, would set back negotiation very substantially. It may be rather limited now but it is going to be even more limited—indeed, it will screw it up completely—if that course is followed. There are plenty of ifs and buts in the future. Beyond that, there is the possibility that it might go to the General Assembly as well, but all these matters have yet to be decided.
Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville
My Lords, how often do Her Majesty’s Government receive representations from our allies about our own decisions on international subscriptions?
Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville
On how many occasions do Her Majesty’s Government receive representations from our allies on our decisions on international subscriptions?
Lord Howell of Guildford
I have absolutely no idea. The world is not like that. It is not a question of representations. Obviously there are discussions in the corridors at multinational meetings on who is going to subscribe to what. That is perfectly natural, but we make our own decisions in the end.
Lord Dubs
My Lords, is not the real issue that, given that no sensible negotiations are taking place, the Palestinians have very few options left and that their bid to become members of the United Nations, and initially of UNESCO, is the only way forward for them? If we keep talking about negotiations when they are not happening, are we not simply saying, “Let us leave it as it is”?
Lord Howell of Guildford
I am not sure that the noble Lord has got that right at all. It is perfectly true that Mr Netanyahu is not, or does not appear to be, a great proponent of negotiations at the present time, but the quartet is proposing some views. We think that there are pressures that can carry negotiation forward and we are not at all convinced that the Palestine statehood idea, if it went to the Security Council and produced the veto and the freezing up of negotiations all round, would be much of an improvement on the situation. I agree with him that it is not good, but it would certainly be very much worse in our view if we followed this course.
Lord Grocott
My Lords, in terms of acts that could be considered to be threatening to any future peace talks, surely there can be no equality between on the one hand the Palestinians wanting full membership of UNESCO, which is a fairly benign movement in its way, and on the other hand a profoundly aggressive movement: the continuing extension of settlements in the Occupied Territories? There really is no equality, surely, between those two acts.
Lord Howell of Guildford
No, none whatever. We regard the continued expansion of settlements as illegal, most unwise and highly provocative. That is part of the broad scene, and that must halt as part of the move forward to the negotiation that will bring Palestine to its full and rightful statehood. I agree. I am not quite sure what point the noble Lord is making. There is no comparison at all.
Iran
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The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford)
My Lords, this report from the International Atomic Energy Agency clearly indicates that Iran has worked on developing nuclear weapons and that some of this work is continuing. We support the production of this report by the agency and call on Iran to take the necessary steps to assure the international community that it is not pursuing a military nuclear programme. We will be pressing for strong action when the agency’s board of governors meets later this week.
Lord Luce
My Lords, since, as the Minister indicated, there is growingly credible evidence that Iran is developing a capability to introduce and develop nuclear devices, and against the background of a dangerously volatile region in the Middle East, would the Minister agree that we should work extremely hard to persuade China, Russia, Israel, the Arab nations—all of us, in all our interest—to work in a concerted fashion to introduce tougher international sanctions that hurt Iran, but keeping literally as a last resort the possibility of military measures?
Lord Howell of Guildford
Yes, I would certainly agree. We are all—and “all” means the entire planet—threatened by nuclear proliferation and the flouting of the proliferation regime which Iran has constantly demonstrated. The noble Lord is absolutely right that although we have an unprecedented degree of sanctions, and are thinking of more sanctions and more targeted sanctions, as long as China tends to be undermining these—and, to some extent, Russia as well—those sanctions are obviously weakened in their effect. So, he is right that we all have to work together to halt a threat that is really to the entire pattern of humanity.
Lord Alton of Liverpool
My Lords, in considering the kind of sanctions that might be imposed on Iran, will the Minister say whether that will include surveillance technology—the sort which has been sold to Iran by the British company Creativity Software, and which has been used in the past against democracy activists and human rights campaigners, leading to their systematic torture? What pride does it bring to this nation that we have been selling such technology to Iran?
Lord Howell of Guildford
We are discouraging every kind of trade and business with Iran, not only those covered by sanctions but also investment by oil companies, for instance, and a whole range of others as well. The specific product that the noble Lord mentioned is one that I will certainly examine, but my overall understanding is that we are discouraging in every possible way all areas of trade with Iran, over and beyond both the EU and the US sanctions.
Baroness Falkner of Margravine
My Lords, does my noble friend agree that, alongside the 3+3 talks, it would be very useful for the UK to advocate re-examining the Turkey-Brazil option which was on the table some months ago in order to keep open the door for future negotiations? Does he accept that unilateral military action by any state in a pre-emptive fashion would be deeply dangerous to the region as it stands today?
Lord Howell of Guildford
My Lords, I certainly accept the second point. On the first point about the Turkey-Brazil initiative, that was an interesting initiative but it did not actually deal with the major problem, which we have here, of proliferation. It was focused, as my noble friend knows, on the enrichment processes and the obtaining of enriched uranium which might be necessary for weapons-grade purposes. So, without saying that the Turkey-Brazil initiative was the answer, we certainly recognise that it might be part of the answer in the future.
Lord Triesman
My Lords, by an ironic twist of fate I now get to ask the noble Lord the very question that he asked me some short while ago. After I repeated the FCO brief on that occasion I tried to have an exchange that was of more use to the House. If there are to be further sanctions that are capable of having an impact on Iran’s trajectory, what is the Government’s view on the sort of sanctions they should be, the prospects for succeeding in achieving them at the UN, and the timeframe?
Lord Howell of Guildford
I hope that I can give as good an answer as the noble Lord did when I asked him the question. It might be even better. We are going to press for further sanctions but one has to be realistic, as I indicated in answering the noble Lord, Lord Luce. If the sanctions are undermined by trading activity and the import of products from China and other countries then they are bound to be limited in effect. However, we believe that sanctions of a financial kind can be tightened still further to make it ever harder for the mullahs and the Iranian Government to get the revenues for some of their oil and oil products. We also believe that more targeted sanctions can be developed and various loopholes can be closed. All these things can be done and probably will be done. However, the bigger issue is how the world unites as a whole to put pressure on the regime to cease to flout the non-proliferation regime and the rulings and the resolutions—six of them—of the UN Security Council.
Lord West of Spithead
My Lords, the elephant in the room seems to be the use of military force, as has been mentioned, though I quite understand why that has been left on the table. However, does the Minister agree that if you make a threat you have to have the willingness to carry it out? It seems to me that we are sleepwalking towards a situation where we may well find ourselves as a nation involved in military action the full implications of which we have not thought through. Does the Minister believe that that is a real risk?
Lord Howell of Guildford
The risks are there on all sides. The noble Lord says that we have not thought through the implications but one can think them through all too clearly. One has only to speculate for a moment on what would happen if Iran were to mine or threaten to mine the Straits of Hormuz: it would double the oil price straightaway. That is a major danger and there are many others as well. The implications have been thought through. As the noble Lord recognises, however, the message from Iran is that all options remain on the table. Meanwhile we concentrate on negotiations and ever tighter sanctions and we hope to achieve an effective outcome. However, the reality must be presented to Iran: the options, of all kinds, are on the table.
Cluster Munitions
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Lord Elton
To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they consider that Article 21 of the Convention on Cluster Munitions, incorporated in the Oslo Treaty of 2008, debars states party to that convention from promoting the adoption by other states of another convention containing weaker restrictions on the use of such weapons.
The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford)
My Lords, the United Kingdom is fully committed to the Convention on Cluster Munitions and our Article 21 commitments. We will not sign up to anything that would undermine it or dilute our obligations under it. We believe that engaging in negotiations for a protocol on cluster munitions in the UN Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons is consistent with paragraphs 1 and 2 of Article 21 of the convention. These are negotiations within the framework of an international humanitarian law treaty, which are aiming at establishing restrictions on a significant number of cluster munitions, which would have a notable humanitarian effect.
Lord Elton
My Lords, Article 21 actually requires us to promote the norms established by the Oslo treaty and the CCM. The norms in the CCW convention that we are now discussing are significantly lower and permit the use, for instance, of the M85 weapon, which formed a considerable part of the saturation bombing of the Lebanon by Israel in 2006, when 4 million sub-units were used. Can my noble friend not see that the United Nations kitemark on a convention of this sort, which permits the use of many sorts of these child-killing weapons, will lead the rest of the world to think that the use of these weapons is respectable? This is not promoting the norms that we have undertaken to promote.
Lord Howell of Guildford
A lot of what my noble friend says is very wise. I emphasise that our consistent aim has been to ensure that any protocol on cluster munitions which emerges from the CCW parties is complementary to and does not contradict the rights and obligations of state parties to the Convention on Cluster Munitions. I see the concern of my noble friend. The Government are anxious to take account of the worries and views of noble Lords and of Parliament generally. I repeat that we will not sign up to anything that would undermine the gold standard, as it were, of the existing convention. I give my noble friend that reassurance. A lot will depend on the negotiations and how they come out. Our position will be determined by that, not by any undermining of the kind which the noble Lord fears.
Lord Hannay of Chiswick
My Lords, notwithstanding the changes that we agreed the other day, would the Minister spare me having to thank him for that Answer, which I am afraid increases concern rather than decreases it? Will he not recognise that there is a very strong body of opinion in this House and in the House of Commons, which was brought to the attention of the Minister responsible for disarmament the other day, about the negotiations in Geneva for a protocol whose sole purpose is to ban some antique cluster munitions that are not very relevant to today’s world and which, if it is agreed, will have the effect of legitimising the modern cluster munitions weapons, including those referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Elton, that were used to such disastrous effect in the Lebanon? Will he not recognise that these feelings are strong and well founded? Will he not agree that it would be completely wrong—politically, not just legally—for this country either to support or to subscribe to any convention that makes that distinction and has the effect of legitimising these appalling modern weapons?
Lord Howell of Guildford
The noble Lord made a number of points. The antique cluster weapons are of course often the nastiest, particularly if they are used, so banning them is no bad thing. As for the negotiation over the protocol, obviously we will take into account the points that the noble Lord has made. However, perhaps he should take into account the point that 85 to 90 per cent of all cluster weapons are with non-Oslo state parties and so are left out of the present commitment, to which we ourselves are totally committed. If his advice is that we should ignore that situation, that sounds to me like a direct attack on a humanitarian benefit that we might achieve. I wonder if he would not like to reconsider his position.
Lord Hughes of Woodside
My Lords, what is the mechanism for the adoption of the convention? Is it a majority vote by the Security Council? Do we have a veto?
Lord Howell of Guildford
We have already adopted the convention and it is a question of getting more countries to sign up to it. Alas, there are a number of important countries—the United States, Russia and China, for a start—that have not done so. That is the mechanism on the existing convention. If any protocol emerges from this, and that is a very large if—it depends on the force of our stance and our commitment not to sign anything that would undermine the convention—that would have to be approved by the United Nations and would have to receive signatories in the same way.
Baroness Falkner of Margravine
My Lords, will my noble friend give the House an assurance that, where competing international treaties or protocols are being negotiated, the United Kingdom will always strive, particularly in the context of arms sales, for the higher ethical standards in the spirit of our disarmament obligations that we have maintained for well over 60 years?
Lord Howell of Guildford
Clearly, we will give primacy to the gold standard, as I call it, of this convention. If it reassures my noble friend, I confess that we are disappointed with the progress of negotiations so far. We will continue to press the world’s major users and producers to give up more, be more transparent and be more explicit in their commitment to working towards a world free of cluster munitions, which is the aim of all of us.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, the point raised by the noble Lords, Lord Elton and Lord Hannay, is that in the current approach there is a risk of legitimising the use of modern cluster weapons. Could the Minister respond to that point?
Lord Howell of Guildford
First, let me say that the previous Government made excellent progress on this. The noble Lord may remember that when I was sitting in his place we supported that, and some brave and bold decisions were taken that we were all very pleased with. The risk is there in the negotiation, but it is a risk that we are determined to avoid. We do not want to legitimise lower standards or undermine or dilute the Convention on Cluster Munitions in any way. That is the approach that we will use in our negotiations. I cannot go into our detailed stance because that would not be very helpful at this stage, but the noble Lord is right that there are risks in this matter, and we are determined to avoid them.
Lord Ashdown of Norton-sub-Hamdon
My Lords, does the Minister agree that many of us doubt that modern cluster weapons are less nasty than the antique ones? Will he give an undertaking that the Government will not in future sign up to any convention that permits the use of modern cluster weapons?
Lord Howell of Guildford
As I said, we will not sign up to any convention that in any way dilutes or undermines obligations. I made the observation on antique weapons merely because it is a minimalist better-than-nothing point that banning antique weapons would be a start. Obviously, we would like to see a total ban, but we have to face the fact that 85 to 90 per cent of cluster munition countries and manufacturers are left out of the present convention. We must battle on to better things, but we cannot achieve it all overnight.