West Bank and Gaza

Lord Howell of Guildford Excerpts

Thursday 9th February 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Judd]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their evaluation of progress towards a reconciliation between the leaderships of the Palestinian communities of the West Bank and Gaza, and what action they are taking to support that reconciliation.

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford)]

My Lords, we are examining closely the agreement of 6 February between Hamas and Fatah on what is described as a technocratic Government of consensus. It is important that any new Palestinian authority be composed of independent figures, commit itself to non-violence and a negotiated two-state solution and accept previous agreements of the PLO. We have been consistently clear that we will engage with any Palestinian Government who show through their words and actions that they are committed to those principles.

[Lord Judd]

Would the Minister not agree that the action by Israelis in arresting so many politicians from Gaza is hardly helpful to the process? As we debated last night, we all have to be careful about counterproductivity, which makes the achievement of serious negotiations more difficult. Is it not therefore essential to bring home to our American colleagues—and, indeed, very much to Israel—that if we are serious about negotiations, nothing must be done to undermine the momentum that will be necessary, and too many preconditions will not help. The best commitments, as we saw in Northern Ireland, arise out of the process of negotiations in which common agreement is forged through argument and persuasion.

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

Yes, to the noble Lord’s second observation. As to his first, about arresting MPs, we are concerned about the recent arrests of the Speaker and other Members of the Palestinian Legislative Council in the West Bank and east Jerusalem. EU heads of mission in Jerusalem and Ramallah issued a statement on 28 January outlining their concern. We have also instructed our embassy in Tel Aviv to raise this with the Israeli authorities, and we continue to monitor that situation closely. It is a matter of concern.

[Baroness Deech]

Is the Minister aware—I am sure he is—that this is the third Question that we have had on Gaza in 24 hours without being able to place this issue in context and without examining the connection of Hamas to Iran—and to Syria, where such terrible things are happening? The House has not had the chance to see this in context; we have not debated the shifting allegiances in the Middle East and the terrible crises. It is no good scratching at one spot when the whole body in the Middle East needs examination by this House, and soon.

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[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I am acutely aware that we have dealt with this particular issue three times in the last 24 hours, including a very interesting but short debate last night. I think it was President Obama who said that his advisers told him that when it comes to the Middle East, everything is connected to everything else. The noble Baroness is quite right that we need to look again and again not merely at the particular issues that we are examining now but at the broader context of how the Iranian threat, the tragedy in Syria, the instability in Iraq and the problems of the Arab uprising and the Arab spring all link together, as they do. I am sure that noble Lords and the usual channels will think of ways in which we can have a further debate on that broader issue. I am very happy to participate at any time when I am required.

[Baroness Ramsay of Cartvale]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that, as my noble friend Lord Judd mentioned in connection with Northern Ireland, a sine qua non for sitting down and starting real negotiations is the renunciation of violence by all the participants?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

That is certainly correct. Indeed, as I said in my opening Answer, that is one of the conditions in which we would recognise that if Hamas has changed by renouncing violence, and a new Government are formed, we would change our attitude to it. However, these conditions are important and we obviously cannot negotiate unless they are accepted.

[Lord Phillips of Sudbury]

My Lords, to follow up the question from the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, is not the context in which Palestine now exists—one thinks of the forthcoming elections in a few months—that Israel is in military occupation of a large part of the West Bank, is continuing to colonise the West Bank and east Jerusalem at an alarming rate, and is attempting always to divide and rule the Palestinians by every possible means? What will we do about it?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I am not sure that I share every nuance of my noble friend’s analysis, but it is certainly not in Israel’s interest to practise manoeuvres to undermine and delay the negotiations by the divide-and-rule process. We now have to watch what is going to happen next, to see whether this Government of consensus will work—we will judge them by their deeds—and to see how the pressure of enlightened Israelis, both in their Government and internationally, can bring them to realise that they will then have a body with whom to negotiate. We also have to see how the talks now going on in Amman, in Jordan, progress. We are putting a great deal of effort, as are other countries, into seeing that progress is made there.

[The Lord Bishop of Exeter]

My Lords, the Minister has already rightly recognised the interconnectedness of everything in the Middle East. I have this morning had an e-mail from the Bishop in Egypt, who writes:

“Egypt is undergoing a very … difficult time. It looks as if the country is experiencing labor pains which may end up by the birth of a new baby, a new democratic Egypt. But it could … be the pains prior to a stillbirth, or an abortion”.

Does he agree that in this context it is really important to do everything possible to encourage rather than diminish confidence in the democratic process, particularly among the Palestinians, and that this is closely linked to the willingness of the international community to recognise and uphold the outcomes of such a democratic process?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

The right reverend Prelate speaks with great wisdom. This is obviously the aim; it is certainly the aim of the United Kingdom. We make our contribution through a variety of ways: obviously through the EU and the quartet, bilaterally and in every other way. However, the principles he describes are right and will have to be upheld with great vigour, because clearly there are people operating in the whole turmoil and mélange of the Middle East uprisings who are not so interested in democracy. These people have to be outfaced.

[Lord Grocott]

The Minister said in answer to an earlier Question that our attitude towards any arrangement between Gaza and the West Bank would be whether the Administration could be seen, in deeds and not just in words, committed to a two-state solution. Can he offer any evidence whatever that, on the other side of the equation, the Israeli Government are in any way showing by deeds, not words, their commitment to a two-state solution?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

The noble Lord is quite right to point out the need for symmetry. When one sees that illegal settlements continue, there is obviously a danger if not of despair then of recognising that the goal of the two-state solution is not as fully accepted on the Israeli side. We must work to change that. Many people, in Israel and outside, see that a solution lies in this direction for better peace and stability for the people of Israel, for an end to their security problems and, of course, for better peace and stability for the Palestinians.

Syria

Lord Howell of Guildford Excerpts

Monday 6th February 2012 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford)]

My Lords, with the leave of the House, I would like to repeat a Statement on Syria.

“Mr Speaker, the whole House will be appalled by the bloodshed and repression which continues at this very moment. Over the last 11 months, more than 6,000 people have been killed. The Syrian regime has deployed snipers, tanks, artillery and mortars against civilian protestors and population centres, particularly in the cities of Homs, Idlib, Hama and Deraa. Thousands of Syrians have endured imprisonment, torture and sexual violence, including instances of the alleged rape of children, and the humanitarian position is deteriorating. This is an utterly unacceptable situation, which demands a united international response.

Last Tuesday, I attended the UN Security Council debate in New York, along with Secretary Clinton, the French Foreign Minister Alain Juppe and other Ministers. We all spoke in strong support of a draft UN Security Council resolution proposed by the Kingdom of Morocco on behalf of the Arab League. The resolution called for the implementation of the Arab League plan to stop all the violence in Syria from all sides, and to begin a political transition.

There was nothing in this draft resolution that could not be supported by any country seeking a peaceful end to the tragedy unfolding in Syria. It demanded an end to all violence; it called for a Syrian-led political process to allow the Syrians to determine their future; and it set out a path to a national unity Government and internationally supervised elections. It did not call for military intervention, and could not have been used to authorise any such action under any circumstances. It did not impose sanctions. It proposed putting the weight and authority of the United Nations Security Council behind a plan to achieve a lasting and sustainable peace in Syria.

As I said at the Security Council, this was the Arab League’s plan; it was not a plan imposed by Western nations. It was co-sponsored by a large number of nations from the region, including Turkey, Tunisia, Jordan, Kuwait, Libya, Bahrain, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates, Egypt, and Oman. Their leadership, and their strong understanding of their region, deserved our support. I pay particular tribute to the Secretary-General of the Arab League and to the Prime Minister of Qatar, who travelled to New York to brief the council and played a vital role in the extensive negotiations that followed.

On Saturday, the resolution was put to the vote. Thirteen of the 15 members of the United Nations Security Council voted in favour. Two did not; Russia and China both exercised their veto. They did so despite extensive efforts made to amend the draft resolution to address Russia’s specific concerns, and in the face of repeated appeals from Arab nations. Instead, they chose to side with the Syrian regime and implicitly to leave the door open to further abuses by them. They did so while President Assad’s tanks were encircling Homs and shells were pounding the homes of Syrian civilians, killing up to 200 people, and on the 30th anniversary of the massacre in Hama.

We regard this veto as a grave error of judgment by the Governments of China and Russia. There is no need to mince words about this. Russia and China have twice vetoed reasonable and necessary action by the United Nations Security Council. Such vetoes are a betrayal of the Syrian people. In deploying them, they have let down the Arab League; they have increased the likelihood of what they wish to avoid in Syria—civil war—and they have placed themselves on the wrong side of Arab and international opinion.

By contrast, I thank the other members of the Security Council for the principled stand they took, in particular the non-permanent members of the council—Morocco, Azerbaijan, Colombia, Germany, Guatemala, India, Pakistan, Portugal, South Africa and Togo—all of which voted in favour of the resolution. Pakistan’s representative to the UN Security Council spoke for all of us when he said:

“This resolution should not die; by being active and engaged, we should give hope to those who are expecting it from us”.

The Syrian regime may have drawn comfort from events at the United Nations Security Council, but we will do everything that we can to make sure that that comfort is short-lived. This is a doomed regime as well as a murdering regime. There is no way it can get its credibility back internationally or with its own people. The UN Security Council’s failure to agree a resolution does not signal the end of our efforts to end the violence in Syria, and I want to set out how we will now proceed.

First, we will continue our strong support for the Arab League. Earlier this afternoon I spoke to the Secretary-General of the Arab League, Nabil el-Araby, as well as the Foreign Minister of Jordan. I welcomed and encouraged the proposal to appoint a special envoy of the Arab League, and I commended the Arab League’s leadership and action so far. Arab Foreign Ministers will meet this weekend to consider their options. The Secretary-General was very clear about the urgency of the situation, the continued determination of the Arab world to act and the need to step up their efforts. I told the Secretary-General that the Arab League will have our complete support.

Secondly, we will seek to widen the international coalition of nations seeking a peaceful and lasting resolution for Syria. We welcome the concept of a new Arab-led group of Friends of Syria, which I discussed with the Prime Minister of Qatar last Tuesday. The aim of such a group will be to demonstrate the strength of international support for the people of Syria and their legitimate demands, to co-ordinate intensified diplomatic and economic pressure on the regime and to engage with Syrian opposition groups committed to a democratic future for the country. Britain will be a highly active member in setting up such a group with the broadest possible international support.

Thirdly, we will intensify our contact with members of the Syrian opposition. The House will recall that in November I announced the appointment of an ambassador-level envoy, Frances Guy, to lead our discussions with them. We will continue to urge the Syrian opposition to come together and to agree a common statement of commitment to democracy, to human rights and to the protection of all Syria’s minorities.

Fourthly, we will maintain our strong focus at the United Nations, undeterred by Saturday’s vote. We will continue to raise Syria at the UN Security Council and we will consider with other nations a resolution of the UN General Assembly. Despite our disagreement with Russia and China we will continue to discuss with them any possibility of an agreed but meaningful way forward.

Fifthly, we will increase pressure through the European Union, following the discussions I had in New York with Ministers from France, Portugal and Germany. We have already agreed 11 rounds of EU sanctions and will hope to agree further measures by the Foreign Affairs Council on 27 February.

Sixthly, we will work with others to ensure that those responsible for crimes in Syria are held to account. At the UN Human Rights Council meeting in March in Geneva we will work to ensure the strongest possible mandate to scrutinise human rights violations in Syria, so that those responsible know that there will be a day of reckoning and that they will be held to account.

Seventhly, we will use our remaining channels to the Syrian regime to make clear our abhorrence at violence that is utterly unacceptable to the civilised world. The Syrian ambassador to London was today summoned to the Foreign and Commonwealth Office to receive this message. Despite our deteriorating relations with the Syrian Government we remain committed to ensuring the safety of their embassy and staff in London. We expect that the Syrian authorities will provide the same protection to our embassy in Damascus.

In parallel, I have today recalled to London our ambassador from Damascus for consultations. He and his team work in extremely difficult conditions to ensure that we have an accurate picture of what is happening in Syria. I hope the House will join me in paying fulsome tribute to them and their families. Their safety and security is always prominent in our considerations.

The human suffering in Syria is already unimaginable and is in grave danger of escalating further. The position taken by Russia and China has regrettably made this more likely. However this Government, this House, our country and our allies will not forget the people of Syria. We will redouble our efforts to put pressure on this appalling regime and to stop this indefensible violence”.

That completes the Statement.

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[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I thank the noble Lord for his very robust support and expert analysis of the overview of the situation, which is very welcome. To take his last point first, I would be very prepared to keep the House as fully informed as possible, as I know my colleagues would in both Houses, on the unfolding tragedy and situation. I will, if I may, take his questions in order. On the number of those who have been killed, we have the figure of 6,000, which seems to be a fairly widely accepted estimate, but of course I cannot possibly guarantee that that is the precise number in the blood, smoke and horror of what is going on. There may be many more; there may be cover-ups or hideous atrocities going on at this moment that are not recorded. We just have to accept that as the figure for the moment, but it could be larger.

The noble Lord’s next question was about how we engage with Russia and China and bring home to those great powers and to the policy-makers in Moscow and Beijing that they have misjudged the situation. It is now a global order, brought together by the miracle of modern communication—a transformed world in which the upkeep of certain basic standards must be supported by all responsible nations. If they want to be in that category they must take a responsible position. We know that Russia has its interests, such as its huge naval base at Tartus, and its long-standing commitment to Syria. We know that China has its interests, which are rather different but broadly in sympathy with the Syria of the past. I believe that the time has come for them to rethink their position and we will remain in constant contact, indeed almost every day, with Russian and Chinese officials and Ministers to bring home to them the inadequacy—more than inadequacy: the unacceptable nature—of the position into which they have driven themselves in opposing the Security Council resolution.

Meanwhile, given that opposition, we have to operate outside the United Nations. We have to look for every possible means of mobilising pressure outside the UN framework for the time being in the hope of getting the process back there some day. The noble Lord raised the question of a joint summit with the Arab League and the European Union. Our thinking is that any such summit should be wider than that. I repeat that this is a global issue and that all responsible nations are ready to step up to the plate, as it were, and voice their views in favour of increased pressure on the Syrian regime and the need for the present killer authorities to go. My right honourable friend would certainly look for wider participation than just the Arab League and the European Union.

The next meeting on 27 February, mentioned in the Statement, is an opportunity to turn the screws further. Of course, an enormous range of sanctions has already been introduced. There are targeted sanctions and every kind of detailed sanction on the Syrian regime. There is a ban on imports of Syrian oil, of course, and on any investment in the Syrian oil industry; a ban on European Union investment construction of new power stations in Syria; and a whole range of other financial and detailed embargos on the export of Syrian banknotes, coinage, and so on. It is possible that there could be more, and we will constantly search for more, and tighter, sanctions, but we must bear in mind the enormous range already in place. A no-fly zone is possibly a read-across from Libya, which may not be entirely relevant at this point because the Syrian air force is not flying. These horrors are being conducted without aircraft overhead adding to the strafing and the killing. There are no operations in the sky to be checked at this stage.

On the Syrian opposition, my right honourable friend met leaders of the Syrian oppositions—in the plural—in November. We are in touch with them, and we are constantly urging them to become more united and to formulate a coherent position, but we are not yet there. The opposition in Syria is many sided and does not yet have the coherence and organisational power to give it the semblance of an alternative, replacement Government. However, we shall continue to work on that.

On safe zones, this would be difficult given that it is not the policy to work for any kind of detailed military intervention. Of course, our Turkish colleagues and allies have considered that idea in view of their position right up against the Syrian border. However, that is not in our catalogue at the moment.

My right honourable friend described how the Syrian ambassador had been brought into the Foreign Office to see officials very recently—this morning, I think. His status is something we keep under review. On the whole, at the moment he is a line of contact and a line to pass through to the Syrian regime should it be prepared to listen for a moment to just how strongly the world feels and to just how determined we are to increase the pressure.

Finally, the noble Lord rightly praised the Metropolitan Police for their action in protecting the Syrian embassy. I make it absolutely clear that it is our policy always to protect foreign embassies in accordance with the highest diplomatic standards, and of course—as my right honourable friend said in his Statement—we expect that the Syrian authorities will do the same. I think that that covers all his points. I thank him again for his and Her Majesty’s Opposition’s strong and reassuring support in reaching a point at which we are all united.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I remind the House of the benefit of short questions to the Minister in order that my noble friend can answer as many as possible.

[Lord Alderdice]

My Lords, this is a serious, sensitive and solemn Statement from my noble friend, and I welcome it very strongly. As we have seen the standing of the Arab League rising in recent times, it is particularly disappointing that the standing of the UN Security Council has fallen because of the actions of Russia and China. Can my noble friend reassure me that while we cannot depend on the United Nations for the present, we will use our good offices within the General Assembly to help Russia and China understand the gravity of their mistake?

My noble friend mentioned co-operation with other European countries and with the Arab League, and I welcome that. However, we of course have our ally in Turkey right on the front line—as he has said. While I do not advocate any military adventures from us at this stage, can I be reassured that we will co-operate, in whatever way we can, with our allies in Turkey, directly as well as perhaps through the auspices of NATO? Can I also be reassured that members of President al-Assad’s family will not be permitted to use their close relationship with this country either to protect themselves or their assets at this time, or indeed for anything they might plan for the future? This is something for which our own Government can perhaps take some responsibility, and on which they can act.

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

My noble friend made three points. First, on how we can help to make the UN more effective, we are of course living with the legacy of the Second World War and a UN structure that is frozen in time. Many people, including many of your Lordships, have worked hard over the years to try to break the deadlock on UN reform to get a more effective regime that is not vulnerable to the kind of vetoes that we have seen over this affair. However, it is very difficult, and every time we have tried, people have disagreed with each other and no progress has been made. None the less, we will certainly keep trying.

Secondly, co-operation with Turkey will be close. We are working very closely with the Turkish Government on this and indeed on many other issues as well. We will certainly continue to do so.

Thirdly, President Bashar al-Assad’s family will get no special protection. There will be no special relationship, despite the fact that some of them have direct origins in this country. The matter will be kept under very careful review. However, there will be no special favours for the families of any members of the regime who are guilty of the kind of atrocities that are now occurring.

[Lord Wright of Richmond]

My Lords, first, I declare an interest as a former British ambassador to Syria and a member of the British/Syrian council. When the Minister responded to my intervention last Thursday, in which I talked about the precedents of Libya and Egypt, he rightly said that the cases of Syria, Libya and Egypt were very different. I will draw attention briefly to the precedent of Iraq. Before there is any question of intervening in Syrian internal affairs—I accept with gratitude the statement that there is no present intention to do so, and the fact that the resolution in the Security Council did not argue for military intervention—the matter needs very careful thought.

The precedent of Iraq is nasty. We did not take adequate account of what the outcome was likely to be. One outcome that is very relevant to Syria was the decimation of the Christian population of northern Iraq, where some of the oldest Christian communities existed. Half a million Christians are now refugees in Syria. Will the Minister assure the House that we have enough intelligence to know not just the figures for those who have died but the situation of the opposition? There are reports that the opposition in Syria is severely dysfunctional and that there is strong disagreement between its various parts. Do we have enough intelligence to work out what the consequence of the action against Syria will be? I ask the Minister to consider in particular the situation of the minorities there, including the Christian population, who are extremely nervous about the prospects of a change of regime, and the very small remaining Jewish minority.

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

The noble Lord is absolutely right to cast his expert eye over the internal complexities of Syria and the uncertainties of the outcome of the immense turmoil that is gripping its society. He is right to say that although there is no question of military intervention, the outside world is putting pressure on Syria for the very good reason that an imploded Syria, or a Syria turning one way or another politically, or into a rogue state, would have major implications for the entire region and would affect us all. There is a responsibility to put on pressure, but no one at this stage is proposing military intervention, although some members of the Arab League have certainly talked about assisting opposition groups.

It is a very delicate scene. I wish I could stand here and predict exactly how things will unfold. The noble Lord is absolutely correct that among the many minorities is a very large Christian minority. The numbers vary. I have heard a figure of 250,000; the noble Lord mentioned 500,000. We are encouraging Syrian opposition groups to reach out, engage with minority communities and maintain a clear commitment to a peaceful and non-sectarian approach. They should reassure all Syrians that they are working towards a Syrian state that is democratic, inclusive and respectful of ethnic and religious minorities. That is the point that we have realised and are urging, but I repeat that anyone who says that they can predict exactly how this will turn out will not be believed because the uncertainties are very great. Syrian society could fragment into many pieces and its unity could be destroyed for many years to come.

[Lord Anderson of Swansea]

Does the Minister agree that Russia and China have put themselves on the wrong side of history by vetoing a very diluted UN Security Council resolution and that it must be very difficult for them now to retreat? I welcome the Minister’s six points on the way forward but these are, essentially, further diplomatic pressures at the United Nations and at the European Union and further potential sanctions. There is, however, great urgency in the situation. Delay surely means further carnage, particularly among the civilian population. What is the evidence of any intervention by Iran with military matériel or personnel to assist the Syrian regime? Where does its supply come from, or does it have sufficient stocks? The reality is that the rebels are massively outgunned. Will Turkey or the Arab League have on the agenda at their meeting this weekend the possibility of assisting in this disparity of weaponry? The Minister has said that a no-fly zone is not in the catalogue at the moment. May I express the hope that, if it is not in the catalogue at the moment, there is contingency planning in case the Syrians use their air power against the rebels?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I am grateful to the noble Lord. Information about Iranian supplies of weaponry to the Syrian regime is difficult to pin down precisely. There are certainly fairly substantial reports of such a supply of weapons. He asks whether, on the side of the allies, Turkey, Qatar or even Saudi Arabia, although he did not mention that country, could supply weapons to the opposition groups. They have said publicly that they are considering such moves. This is, however, a matter that the Arab League will have to deliberate on very carefully and reach their decisions on as soon as possible. As the noble Lord says, there is not much time. That is the position and I fully take the point that, as every day goes by, with delay more people are dying. This is an horrific pattern and although it is very hard to see how it can be stopped we have to find the best possible ways of doing so.

[Lord Eden of Winton]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for repeating the robust and measured Statement of the Foreign Secretary in the House of Commons. As these appalling events are unfolded by the Syrian Government on the civilian population of that country, is it not remarkable the extent to which people are prepared to go, even at the risk of their own life, to make sure that their cry, their voice, their opinion, is heeded and heard throughout the world? Can my noble friend give any further information to the House about the attitude of Russia and China? Was it indicated, in their representatives’ comments in the United Nations—both in session and in the corridors—what, if anything, their end game might be? What are their objectives, or are they just making mayhem wherever the opportunity occurs?

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[Lord Howell of Guildford]

My Lords, my noble friend makes two points. First, he drew attention to something that we are inclined sometimes to forget, with the tumult of pictures on the television and so on—the staggering courage of people who are prepared to go into the streets, knowing that bullets will be flying, knowing that murder and mayhem will take place. That staggering courage is something that we should all salute and brings hope that the Syrian people—as opposed to the regime that is oppressing them—have got a strength and endurance which will see them through in the end. It is indeed a remarkable thing.

As to the Russian agenda, Mr Lavrov, the Russian Foreign Minister, is going to Damascus, I think either late today or tomorrow, and he is going to see Bashar al-Assad. He is going with his secret service chief, I see. There appears to be a view in Moscow that they have their agenda and their own path that they want to pursue for bringing some amelioration to this horrific situation. I think that they are mistaken. I think that that is a complete misjudgment, but that is what they are doing and my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary will be speaking to Mr Lavrov as soon as he returns from Damascus.

[Lord Jay of Ewelme]

My Lords, I join others in paying tribute to our ambassador and his staff and their families in Damascus who are doing an extraordinarily good job in very difficult circumstances. In that context, will the Minister confirm that our ambassador has been withdrawn only for consultations and will soon be back in Damascus? It has always struck me as a curious diplomatic convention to withdraw ambassadors from post when situations get bad, which is precisely the moment when they can be the most use.

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I fully share the noble Lord’s remarks about Simon Collis, our excellent ambassador. He is recalled here for consultation. We are not closing the embassy at this stage. Obviously it is a matter under complete review, as is the question of the security of embassy staff and everyone concerned. I can confirm what my right honourable friend said in his Statement—that the ambassador has been recalled for consultation. We are not closing the embassy at this stage.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick]

My Lords, will the Minister also accept congratulations on the work of the UK mission in New York? To have got 13 people to vote for this resolution is no simple matter, particularly since some of the countries that voted for it are very careful not to get involved in “undue interference” in other countries’ business—so that gives the lie, frankly, to the Russians and the Chinese, who regard this as being that. Could the Minister perhaps say whether the Government are contemplating providing any humanitarian assistance to the rebels and to those who are wounded in this fighting, and also whether any thought is being given to the application of the convention on torture to people who are involved in the regime?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

On the first point, the noble Lord speaks with experience, because he has done that job himself and knows exactly how difficult it is. His praise for the success of the UN team is very valid and very worth while receiving, and I hope that the team will note it. DfID is engaged and is working with the International Committee of the Red Cross on various aspects, and it is very active in seeing in what other ways it can help. I do not think that I can say more at the moment on that matter. I have to ask the noble Lord for the third question again. I wrote it down but I cannot read my writing.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick]

I asked whether the Government are giving any consideration to the application of the convention against torture to those in the regime who are undoubtedly using that practice.

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

This is obviously one of the many matters under consideration. Of course, it is related to the broader matter of whether there will be a UN resolution in relation to the reference to the International Criminal Court. It requires a UN resolution because Syria is not a signatory to the ICC. As I have raised that matter, I should just make it clear that the commission of inquiry quite clearly stated its concern that crimes against humanity have been committed in Syria, which may be a matter for the International Criminal Court. The UK would not rule out referral to the ICC, as suggested by Mrs Pillay. The commission of inquiry report does not specifically recommend referral to the ICC, nor does the Human Rights Council have the power to refer cases. It would be for the UN Security Council to refer the situation in Syria to the ICC prosecutor. I would add that I am absolutely sure that issues about torture and other gross human rights abuses would certainly arise in that context.

[Baroness Hussein-Ece]

My Lords, perhaps I can ask my noble friend the Minister for some further clarification. In his response to the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Triesman, on safe zones, I think he said that these had not yet been agreed or discussed. After the statement Turkey made over the weekend that its borders would now be open for people fleeing persecution, for refugees wanting to go across into Turkey for sanctuary, have there been any further discussions and deliberations on the creation of the buffer zone that was being discussed a few months ago?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I do not think there have. This is a matter that appeared in the public press some weeks ago but I am not aware of it coming up in the agenda of our discussions with the Turkish Government. I may be wrong about that, but I certainly have no reports in my briefing on that particular issue.

[Lord Tugendhat]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that a major motivation for the Russian and Chinese vetoes is their fear of internal dissent in their own countries and of international eyes being cast upon their own misdeeds?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

That is absolutely true. My noble friend is completely correct that both Governments have problems—shall we put it like that—with certain areas that are seeking either secession or a degree of autonomy that they do not want to accept, and they have this fear of fragmentation of their own national boundaries. That is a very strong motivation. On top of that, as I said earlier, Russia has huge interests in Syria, including its colossal naval base at Tartus.

[Lord Stirrup]

My Lords, the terrible events in Syria may have consequences well beyond the borders of that country. Can the Minister say what discussions the UK has had, both internally and with its international partners, on the potential implications for the Lebanon, and how these might be mitigated?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

Yes, we keep in very close touch with partners, and indeed the Lebanese authorities and the Lebanese Prime Minister, Mr Najib Mikati, over the situation. It is a delicate and very difficult one for the Lebanese Government, who have problems internally with Hezbollah and with their relationship with Syria, which is complex and has been in the past extremely difficult. These matters are under very close review at all times.

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Skelmersdale)]

My Lords, the time for the Statement has now elapsed so we return to the Protection of Freedoms Bill.

Algeria

Lord Howell of Guildford Excerpts

Thursday 2nd February 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Risby]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what action they are taking to develop business and political links with Algeria.

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford)]

My Lords, Algeria is an important partner. The visit by my right honourable friend the Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary in October and the annual political dialogue between the Under-Secretary of State, Mr Burt, and his counterpart, Mr Messahel, have strengthened our links. I visited in November to discuss trade, energy and foreign policy, and the visit in January by my noble friend Lord Marland focused on our commercial and energy relationships. UK exports to Algeria were up 67 per cent last year. British businesses are the largest in Algeria’s hydrocarbon sector, and we are actively pursuing opportunities in education, pharmaceuticals and finance. Algeria has also shown a strong interest in closer links with the Commonwealth.

[Lord Risby]

My Lords, there can be few countries that have suffered more violence and destruction in the past than Algeria, but more latterly there has been stability in a very turbulent region. Will the Minister welcome the moves towards political reform that are now under way, culminating in elections later this year and a substantial number of women parliamentarians? Given this and the enormous levels of natural gas that exist in the country, does my noble friend agree that, with the extraordinary and exceptional friendship currently being shown to us by the Algerians, we should readily react to this in view of the important strategic, political and commercial opportunities that arise?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

Yes, we fully recognise the points that my noble friend has rightly made. I congratulate him on the very successful visit that he and some colleagues recently made to Algeria. This is a country that has emerged from a very dark period. It has some way to go in some crucial areas but it is, in resource terms, immensely rich. It has a determination to move back into the comity of nations in an effective way and I believe that we should work closely with it. I think that the frequent visits that Ministers from my department have paid reflect that reality.

[Lord Anderson of Swansea]

My Lords, the trade and energy links are indeed important but so, too, are human rights. The noble Lord must be aware of a growing tide of Islamism creeping over Algeria. It is shown at two levels: one is in the closure of many places of entertainment and the second, more importantly, is in the closure of places of worship. I know that Alistair Burt at the Foreign Office and Commissioner Füle have made representations. Has there been any response to the British and EU representations in respect of human rights?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

There has. The noble Lord is right to raise questions of human rights, which are obviously our central concern. So far as concerns jihadism and more extreme versions of Islamism, while in the south of Algeria and to the south of Algeria there are continuing difficulties which need to be watched and addressed very carefully, in the north the situation is much better controlled. The general tendency which was feared a decade or so ago—of extreme jihadism taking over—has been checked and resisted. In fact, I think that Algeria is moving on from that phase.

As to the question of religious discrimination, there has been a constant exchange, and the noble Lord mentioned Mr Burt’s dialogue with Ministers. The laws that control where churches or other religious institutions can be built apply to all faiths—this is not just discrimination against Christians. We have discussed this very carefully with Ministers in Algiers. They have assured us that the laws are applied in a relatively light-handed way and that discrimination is not against one faith. It governs all building, including of mosques. Therefore, it is a matter that we are watching. I cannot promise that immediate results have been achieved but we are working at it.

[Lord Chidgey]

Is my noble friend aware that, according to the UKTI report, Doing Business in Algeria, for every £1 worth of goods that we export to Algeria, Algeria exports £2 worth of goods to us? That is resulting in a significant trade deficit, which, according to the current facts, is set to double every two years? According to UKTI, this is a mutually beneficial arrangement. Does this not smack somewhat of complacency as far as our exports are concerned?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

No, I do not think it does because the big export from Algeria to us is liquid natural gas. Algeria is a major exporter to Europe of LNG. It is developing that capacity vigorously. There are further huge areas to be licensed, explored and developed in Algeria and we hope that British firms will have a major involvement in that as the licensing system unfolds and improves. I do not think that my noble friend’s figures fully reflect the fact that I have just pointed out to him, that for our daily energy and for keeping the lights on we need good supplies of liquid natural gas as well as the natural gas that we get from the North Sea, Norway and other places.

[Lord West of Spithead]

My Lords, the Minister has clearly articulated the fact that AQ of the Maghreb are now concentrated in the south. Have we had success in convincing European nations that the paying of ransoms has been one of the reasons for AQIM increasing its power and that we really must not do that?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I hesitate to tick the box marked “success”, but this matter is certainly very much on our minds and it is being discussed. In fact, I think it is being discussed this week at the United Nations, among other places, and it has certainly been discussed with our European colleagues. The noble Lord is quite right to draw attention to this. The ransom is the Danegeld. It will never solve the problem but will make it worse. As a government, we are totally against any paying of ransom in all such circumstances.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, the noble Lord mentioned educational links in his first Answer. He will be aware of the restrictions on overseas students coming to the UK as a result of actions by the Government. Is he able to comment on the impact that that has had on students from Algeria coming to the UK as education is a very important export earner for this country?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

Of course, we welcome bona fide students to our universities and a healthy student exchange. The matter was not raised with me during quite an extensive stay in Algeria a few months ago, but it is a matter that I shall look at again and check whether the Algerians have any particular problems to raise with us.

Libya

Lord Howell of Guildford Excerpts

Thursday 2nd February 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Judd]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their response to reports from Amnesty International about alleged torture and other brutalities in Libya, and what action they are taking to address the situation.

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford)]

My Lords, United Kingdom Ministers have regularly raised concerns over the treatment of detainees since the liberation of Libya. Following recent reports, my honourable friends and fellow Foreign Office Ministers Mr Jeremy Browne and Mr Alistair Burt have raised the issue with the Libyan Interior Minister, Mr Abdilal, and the Deputy Foreign Minister. We welcome the Libyan Deputy Prime Minister’s recent commitment to investigate all violations of human rights and to bring all detainees under central government control.

[Lord Judd]

My Lords, does not the noble Lord agree that it is going to take more than words to deal with this situation? Does he not also agree that, just as our highly effective and professional armed services played such a key part in bringing about the downfall of Gaddafi and his regime, we must be as rigorous in our resolve to secure the standards of justice, human rights and freedom which were the rationalisation and reason for the rebellion against the existing regime?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I would certainly agree with that, and it is reflected in the discussions that Ministers have had in reiterating these concerns. The Libyan Interior Minister is actually visiting this country at this moment and Ministers are in close touch with him. Our ambassador in Tripoli has raised the matter with members of the transitional Government. The noble Lord is absolutely right: words are not enough; actions are required to gain control of the very disparate bodies and groups on the Libyan scene, which is the first problem, and to establish an orderly path towards a strong and democratic system of governance. All this is part of the pattern of tackling what is completely unacceptable behaviour.

[Lord Wright of Richmond]

My Lords, does the Minister accept that these appalling reports from Libya, along with the distressing reports of incidents in Port Said yesterday, argue for perhaps rather greater caution on joining other people’s calls for a change of regime in Syria?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

The noble Lord touches on a difficult issue. The situations in the countries he has mentioned—Egypt, Libya and Syria—are completely different. We can see the horrors of Syria, including what are apparently child murders and other appalling atrocities, and we are pressing this matter as hard as we can at the United Nations—my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary has been in New York for the past two days—to get full UN backing for the efforts of the Arab League and all those who want to bring to a halt the ghastly situation in Syria. I think that the noble Lord is fully aware of the difficulties at the United Nations in bringing along some of the members of the permanent Security Council, notably Russia and China. However, we are working very hard to bring them in line to meet the appalling situation in Syria.

[Baroness Falkner of Margravine]

Does my noble friend accept that in countries which are emerging from conflict, the building of institutions takes its time and is quite problematic? Can he tell the House whether the ample resources of the Stabilisation Unit and the Conflict Pool might be available to help train Libyan judges and the country’s police force so that they can comply with due process and improve their judicial standards?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

My noble friend is quite right to draw attention to the fact that it takes time and that these are early days. It is just about a year since the Libyan liberation drama began to unfold. We must be patient but, in addition to what we are doing already, we will examine further means of supporting the training of judges and so forth. I have before me a long list of activities where the UK is supporting the Libyan democratic process and trying to ensure that it rolls forward smoothly. I could delay the House with the details, but I will not do so. However, my noble friend has certainly touched on one very important aspect.

[Lord Davies of Coity]

My Lords, some time ago when we were intervening in Libya, I asked the noble Lord about the occurrence of tribalism. Can he now say whether the brutalities that are taking place in Libya are as a result of tribalism out there?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I am afraid that I cannot give the noble Lord a detailed and informed answer because it is very hard to get all the information. There are tribal enclaves and there have been problems, as demonstrated by the continuing support of some villages and towns for the now totally discredited and removed Gaddafi regime. This support may well be linked to tribal and ancestral loyalties, and everyone recognises that the Libyan scene remains problematically influenced by many tribal traditions and rivalries. I can say no more than that for now and, while I shall look into it, I do not think that we are going to find very much more at the moment.

[Baroness Berridge]

My Lords, is the situation in Libya improving or deteriorating for sub-Saharan migrant workers who were caught up in the initial wave of imprisonment? What efforts is the Foreign and Commonwealth Office making to communicate with Britain’s diaspora communities, who are very concerned about this matter?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

We are concerned about the matter as well. There is some evidence that some relief is being organised, but the situation remains far from satisfactory and we will keep a very close eye on it.

[Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean]

My Lords, following on from the excellent question of the noble Baroness, Lady Falkner of Margravine, can the Minister tell us what direct support the Foreign Office is able to give through financing the work that the Westminster Foundation for Democracy was doing in Libya, as well as that of the Law Society, which was engaging on some of the very points that the noble Baroness raised, on judge training and establishing the rule of law and functioning courts?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

We support all these aspects. As I think the noble Baroness knows, although there was a dip in the funding for the Westminster Foundation for Democracy, there has been a modest but welcome increase for the current year. That reflects our belief, which we share with her, that its work is an extremely valuable part of the scene. As to the Law Society and other non-governmental but very important operations of the kind that she has mentioned, these are things that we encourage. We should certainly look at and develop judge training. We are looking at projects in civil society, electoral preparations, prison reform, asset tracking and public financial management. We are supporting the role of women through funding the first women’s convention in November; we are helping the Libyans strengthen their institutions and restore public services. There is a whole list of other areas in which we are involved. All these are very important. We want to see Libya emerge as a stable, democratic country, bringing peace and prosperity to its much benighted citizens.

Council of Europe

Lord Howell of Guildford Excerpts

Wednesday 1st February 2012 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Dundee]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have to promote active citizenship in Europe during their current chairmanship of the Council of Europe.

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford)]

My Lords, our chairmanship priorities were outlined in my Written Statement of 26 October 2011. They include, among other things, reform of the council's work on local and regional democracy, which should assist in strengthening the citizenship role in member states.

[The Earl of Dundee]

I thank my noble friend for that reply. Can he affirm that our chairmanship will seek measures to improve the co-ordination of local democracy, including among the Council of Europe's separate branches for local government, non-government organisations and the Parliamentary Assembly itself? Can he also assure us that our chairmanship will recognise and encourage experience of good practice such as city diplomacy, where different cities and centres already improve their local results by working together on similar issues and problems?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

The answer to my noble friend is yes on both points. The Council of Europe can have a major role in facilitating exchanges of the sort he described, and one priority of our chairmanship is to streamline and make more efficient the Council of Europe's work in the field of democratic local governance. Also, there can be real gains for local communities where those responsible for local services and the governance of towns and cities can exchange good practice and share knowledge and experience with their counterparts in other states, and that, too, we intend to encourage in our chairmanship.

[Lord Anderson of Swansea]

My Lords, the European Union's Europe for Citizens programme concentrates mainly on town twinning, so we should avoid duplication in the Council of Europe, but the European Union programme also deals with communicating with citizens on the work being done by the European Union. Is not there a case during our presidency for informing the citizens of the wider Europe of the valuable work being done in many fields by the Council of Europe?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

Yes, I am sure there is. The noble Lord is quite right: the Council of Europe covers about 800 million people, which is wider than the European Union. Of course there can be a constructive interchange and the work of each body can be promoted by the other to their mutual benefit.

[Lord Phillips of Sudbury]

My Lords, does my noble friend accept that the so-called democratic deficit is developing in this country and in wider Europe, perhaps to be greatly exacerbated by the eurozone crisis? Is he aware that 2013 is to be the EU year of citizens in action? In that regard, will he assure the House that citizenship education will remain part of the core curriculum, as it has been since 2002, given that there are now questions as to whether it might be taken out of the compulsory core curriculum?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I very much hope—it is a hope rather than an assurance—that all those involved in these great institutions will work in that way. This switches the commentary from the Council of Europe to the European Union, which of course is different, but we all look back to the Laeken declaration, which urged the European Union to bring itself closer to the citizenry, and the Council of Europe is of course on the same sort of track. This is an age of the empowerment of citizens and, as some people say, of empowerment of the street, sometimes with good results and sometimes with less good results. In all cases, empowerment of the citizen, responsibility of the citizen, education and bringing home the potential role of active citizenry remain absolutely vital.

[Lord Tomlinson]

Does the Minister agree that at a time when we need some good news to be given by the United Kingdom to Europe, it would be appropriate during our chairmanship to ratify the European convention on combating violence against women? I know that the consultation process finishes at the end of March, but if they really get their skates on that will be something for Dominic Grieve to announce when he comes to the Council of Europe in April.

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I agree that this would be a good aim. A number of areas need further consideration before a final decision can be made on whether to sign the Council of Europe convention on preventing and combating violence against women and domestic violence. As part of this further consideration, which is on very real and important issues, I am advised that the Home Office launched a consultation in December, about two months ago, on whether to create a new offence of forced marriage. The consultation period will end on 30 March and we will then be able to make a definitive decision in line with the hopes of the noble Lord.

[Lord Hamilton of Epsom]

Following my noble friend’s question about the crisis in the eurozone, what is the Government’s policy towards unelected Governments of so-called experts in Greece and Italy?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I think that my noble friend will be the first to recognise that we have to leave the member states of Europe, and indeed the nations and democracies of the world, to decide how best to govern themselves. From time to time they call upon experts and technocrats to make up for the deficiencies of quarrelling democrats.

[Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton]

My Lords, I declare an interest as an honorary vice-president of the Standing Conference of Local and Regional Authorities of Europe. Will the Minister please give an assurance that during their presidency our Government will do everything to ensure that citizenship education includes the rights of Roma, Gypsy and Traveller populations within the countries of Europe? There is terrible discrimination in Council of Europe countries against these groups.

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

The noble Baroness is absolutely right that discrimination against Roma and concerns for the position of Roma are very important issues. As she knows, the secretary-general of the Council of Europe convened a high-level meeting way back in October of not last year but the year before. That was after the really chilling example of the French deportations of Roma and it produced the Strasbourg declaration on the treatment of the Roma. However, I fully agree with the noble Baroness that this issue should remain at the top of the agenda, and it is one that we should examine and promote very carefully and assiduously during our chairmanship.

[Lord Richard]

My Lords, if there really is a campaign called Citizens in Action, would the noble Lord urge whoever is responsible for it to look again at the title, which, to put it mildly, has a certain ambiguity about it?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I am sure that the noble Lord, with his learning and skill, could contribute to better titles and labelling for some of these programmes.

Northern Cyprus

Lord Howell of Guildford Excerpts

Wednesday 1st February 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sharkey]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government, in the light of the United Nations Secretary-General’s comments on the lack of progress of talks on the future of Cyprus, whether they will now consider recognising Northern Cyprus.

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford)]

My Lords, the United Kingdom remains committed to supporting the UN-led process on Cyprus. Although only limited progress was achieved at the latest round of talks between the two leaders and the United Nations Secretary-General, the process has not ended. The UN Secretary-General has called for a decisive move to reach a final agreement, and will provide a report to the Security Council at the end of February.

[Lord Sharkey]

My Lords, the Minister may recall that, writing in the Times on 8 November 2010, Jack Straw said:

“It is time for the UK Government to consider formally the partition of Cyprus if the talks fail”.

The talks he referred to did fail, as did the next and latest. In the same article, Jack Straw also said that,

“the chances of a settlement would be greatly enhanced if the international community broke a taboo, and started publicly to recognise that if ‘political equality’ cannot be achieved within one state, then it could with two states—north and south”.

Does my noble friend the Minister agree with Jack Straw on this point?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

No, I do not. Jack Straw is not a member of the current Government, of course, and his comments were made in a private capacity as an MP. The guarantor power, the UK, has undertaken by treaty to prohibit any activity aimed at promoting, directly or indirectly, either the union of Cyprus with any other state or the partition of the island; so I repeat—a pretty emphatic no.

[Lord Maginnis of Drumglass]

My Lords, I beg leave to take the opportunity to pay tribute to my late and dear friend, Rauf Denktas, whose courage and leadership frustrated EOKA-B’s Akritas and Ifestos plans for ethnic cleansing. After 49 years’ discrimination against Turkish Cypriots and 38 years of successive Greek Cypriot rejections of resolutions, including the 2004 Annan plan, is it not time for the United Kingdom to cease its systematic humiliation of Turkish Cypriots?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

On the first point, our high commissioner sent a letter of condolence to the leader in the north of Cyprus and to Mr Denktas’s family. I personally associate myself with those condolences, having had an opportunity to meet him in the past. I do not think that the other language used by the noble Lord is justified. “Humiliation” does not come into it. The aim, and it is a noble aim, is to see equality of treatment and the bizonal federal ambition for a peaceful Cyprus achieved, with all citizens on an equal footing. There is no question of humiliation being involved.

[Lord Triesman]

My Lords, I start by expressing our agreement with the position that the Government have expressed this afternoon. It reflects a long-term policy and desire to see equality of treatment. I agree strongly with all those propositions. Does the Minister agree that if any process was inaugurated towards recognising Northern Cyprus, it would flow in exactly the opposite direction to any prospect of achieving the objectives that he has set out?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I am just trying to fathom out that question. First, I thank the noble Lord for his agreement and support for what we are all trying to do. This matter rises well above political parties and differences. As I was reminded this morning, these negotiations have been going on for 43 years. It really is time that we encouraged, by every effort possible, a resolution of these differences for the island of Cyprus. The noble Lord says the pressures go in the opposite direction to everything that we are trying to achieve, but I am not sure they do. I think the pressures, throughout the world and certainly from the United Nations Secretary-General, are that there can be some reconciliation and resolution. The main issues involved are to how to share power; the question of property, which is very sensitive; citizenship; and elections. On all these, I think it is possible for there to be progress, although I have to admit that for the moment it has been very modest.

[Baroness Knight of Collingtree]

My Lords, I am chairman of the group for Northern Cyprus in this House and I recently led a delegation there at the invitation of that country. Since the Minister has mentioned the length of this dispute, will he also bear in mind that every one of those 43 years has meant pain and suffering? Even today, if a Turkish Northern Cyprus group should visit the south, even on a sporting occasion, it is set upon and viciously attacked. This situation goes on and on. Surely some really hard effort must be put towards ending it.

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I fully agree with my noble friend. Of course, these are unacceptable conditions for any citizen. The whole aim of working for a comprehensive settlement must be to make all those kinds of treatments and suffering, and the anecdotes associated with them, a matter of the past.

[Lord Harrison]

My Lords, I renew my previous request to the Minister to ensure—

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick]

My Lords, does the noble Lord agree that since the deadlock in the talks at the moment is at least half the responsibility of Mr Eroglu, it is pretty odd to be discussing the matter on the Order Paper today?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

First, I defer to the extreme knowledge of the noble Lord on this matter. It is very hard to apportion the blame. All the parties concerned say that they want to make progress. The Governments, as it were, of the countries concerned, Turkey and obviously Greece—which are not directly involved because clearly this matter must be left to the people of Cyprus to sort out—have indicated a positive attitude. We have a positive attitude, as does the United Nations, and we just have to take our opportunities as they come. At the moment, the talks of the other day have come to a halt, but the Secretary-General is pressing ahead. He has asked Alexander Downer to do more work and to create a review. If the review is positive, he has said that he would like to move towards a multilateral conference in late April. So there may be hope on this front, but I do not want to raise those hopes too high.

Hungary

Lord Howell of Guildford Excerpts

Monday 30th January 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Teverson]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what representations they have made to the Government of Hungary and to the European Union in regard to the introduction and extent of Hungary’s new constitution.

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford)]

My Lords, my honourable friend the Minister for Europe, David Lidington, has spoken to both his Hungarian counterpart, Ms Eniko Gyori, and to Commission President Barroso’s chief of staff, Johannes Laitenberger, about recent developments in Hungary. Mr Lidington outlined the UK position that we support the upholding of EU laws and encourage constructive Hungarian engagement to address any concerns raised as a result of the Commission’s analysis of recent legislative changes.

[Lord Teverson]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that encouraging reply. However, rather than just making technical changes to Hungarian legislation, as occurred when there was a problem with its media laws, can the European Union do something more substantial on these fundamental questions of democracy in Hungary to ensure that the principles of the European Union, and Hungary’s membership of it, are fortified rather than diluted?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I think that the intervention and the position taken by the Commission reflect some of that concern. As far as the UK is concerned, we urge the Hungarian authorities to be constructive and flexible and to honour their international obligations, as indeed we would urge any other fellow member of the European Union to do in similar circumstances.

[Baroness Bakewell]

Is the Minister aware of the degree to which the new Government in Hungary are already cracking down on free speech? The mayor of Budapest has sacked the director of the New Theatre there and appointed someone from the Jobbik party, and that same party is now challenging the country’s National Theatre. Some 70 figures in this country’s arts world have voiced their protest against such censorship. Will the Government back them?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

We certainly recognise all the concerns that the noble Baroness has put forward, and it is right that we urge change. The European Commission released its analysis of the compatibility of Hungarian legislation with the EU treaty obligations on 17 January. The acute concerns that the noble Baroness has mentioned are valid. We submit that the Commission’s approach is a sensible and constructive handling of the situation. That is our position.

[Lord Hylton]

My Lords, Hungary is also a member of the Council of Europe. Do the Government consider that the new constitution is compatible with the European Convention on Human Rights, particularly as regards freedom of conscience and freedom of association?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

That is an important matter to consider and we will consider it. Obviously, a number of processes are at work here. We are dealing partly with the European Union and the Commission and partly with the track that the noble Lord has outlined and pointed to. We will focus on that as well.

[Lord Tomlinson]

Does the noble Lord, following on from the last question, recognise that we in the United Kingdom are in a unique position at present as we hold the presidency of the Committee of Ministers of the Council of Europe? Does he share the views expressed last week in the plenary session of the Parliamentary Assembly by the Secretary-General, Mr Thorbjorn Jagland, who said that the situation in Hungary shames us all?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I certainly share the concerns, and I also share the hopes reflected in the noble Lord’s question—that in our chairmanship position we will be able to carry these concerns forward. The noble Lord is quite right to draw attention to that.

[Lord Hughes of Woodside]

My Lords, given that Hungary went through years of dictatorship under Nazi occupation and then through years of dictatorship under the Soviet regimes, would it not be surprising if the people of Hungary were not aware of that past and willing to fight very hard for their freedoms, and should we not assist them when they do?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

Of course we should. Certainly speaking for myself, one of the turning points in my lifetime was when these countries, which were in effect enslaved under communism, came into freedom in the latter part of the last century. That was a wonderful thing. We played a good part in bringing it about and we must continue to fight for those freedoms. I agree with the noble Lord.

[Baroness Williams of Crosby]

My Lords, given that there are prospects for further enlargement of the European Union—we have had much discussion about Turkey and other countries—would it not be appropriate to take a very strong line indeed with Hungary? Its Prime Minister has, in fact, played games with nationalism and democracy for quite a few years now, even before he became Prime Minister, through his party. The more clearly that the Council of Europe can give an indication that this is not acceptable for a member of the European Union, the more likely it is that other countries will look very carefully at it before deciding whether to move towards membership.

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

My noble friend is right that there is concern here, and it is a matter that both aspiring and current members of the European Union should closely follow and be engaged in. Hungary is a nation of many virtues and has been through many difficulties. We want it to continue and prosper as a free nation and not to be constrained by undesirable and unsavoury laws. We recognise that, and we have to work very hard on that basis.

[Lord Sewel]

My Lords, although it is right and proper to be positive and constructive in our relationship with Hungary at this difficult time, ultimately, what sanctions are available to the EU?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

The sanctions are those that are available to the European Union as an organisation which requires certain standards that we adhere to very strongly—standards of behaviour, and moral, legal and social standards—throughout the European Union. That is the sanction available on that side. The Council of Europe also has powers to censure, and, indeed, challenge the continued membership of organisations within it. These are powerful pressures that need to be used in a balanced way and with the right approach. That is the situation which we are now grappling with.

[Lord Stoddart of Swindon]

My Lords, is there not a problem here which has to be resolved? On the one hand, the people of Hungary have decided to have a Government and a new constitution that do not fit in with the rest of Europe. On the other hand, the European Union cannot possibly accept a Government of Hungary who have a constitution that is not in accordance with its views and background. How do we resolve the problem? Who is going to win in this—the electorate of Hungary or the European Union?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I do not quite see it in that sort of Manichean analysis between the European Union and Hungary. I see that there are certain objective standards of good government and free government, and the freedoms that we all fought for during all our lifetimes, and that these should be upheld. The European Union is a repository of those freedoms, as is the Council of Europe. When those standards are being departed from or flouted in any member state—indeed, we can extend this to organisations outside Europe, such as the Commonwealth—then all pressure should be brought to bear. It is not just a question of the European Union versus Hungary; it is a question of the proper rule of law, good governance, democracy and the core values and principles that we stand for and have fought for being adhered to in every possible way.

EU: Treaties

Lord Howell of Guildford Excerpts

Monday 30th January 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Liddle]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the intergovernmental treaty presently under negotiation in Brussels will eventually become part of the structure of the European Union treaties.

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford)]

My Lords, I think we can all cool down now. It is the prerogative of any member state to suggest additions to the European Union treaties. Any addition, including the proposed intergovernmental treaty, would need to have the agreement of all 27 member states.

[Lord Liddle]

I thank the Minister for doing his best in that reply. However, with all his experience of European matters stretching over five decades in politics, would he please explain to the House how the Prime Minister can one month take Britain out of the room, claiming that the proposed treaty is a threat to our vital national interests, and then the next month appear to want to wave it through, declaring that he does not mind at all if the intergovernmental treaty, of which we will not be part, makes full use of the EU institutional machinery? Is it not true, and does the Minister not agree, that really the only way to protect Britain’s vital national interests is always to be properly at the table in the room and not walk away, and that the only reason that the Prime Minister cannot do what is right for Britain is that his main concern is what he can get away with inside a divided coalition and a divided party?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I think that the noble Lord, in his enthusiasm for these matters, is getting a bit confused. This is an intergovernmental treaty; it is not going forward inside the European Union. The British Government are anxious that there should be orderly development of the eurozone and that obviously it should not collapse into chaos. Nevertheless, as I think the noble Lord himself has written, it has “design flaws” in it—I think those were his words—and therefore there has to be caution and care about the whole way in which it is carried forward. Certainly, the UK does not want to be involved in a treaty that supports a flawed system. We want to be supportive of a design for the future which is sustainable and which brings prosperity, not division, to Europe. That is the position. What is the role of the European Union institutions? We do not want to throw sand in the machine. If some of them can usefully be used in the aim of building a better euro system, we will support them, but we are reserving our position on exactly which institutions should be used and how they should be used. Our general attitude is supportive and constructive, and we are involved, as ever, in the machinery of building a prosperous and competitive Europe and a good single market. These remain our aims and we are taking a leading position on them.

[Lord Taverne]

My Lords, is the report in the Financial Times correct that the Government are giving a measure of support—it seems somewhat conditional—to the idea that those who signed the intergovernmental treaty can use the institutions of the community, including the Court of Justice? Does this have the support of the whole Cabinet, including the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions? Secondly, in his evidence before the House of Commons Select Committee on 11 January, the Chancellor said that the Government, in December, would have preferred to sign the proposed treaty had it included safeguards to protect the proper regulation of the City. Since the new treaty now includes safeguards that prevent it applying to the single market, what prevents the Government taking further steps towards re-engagement in Europe and signing the treaty?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

There are two points there. As I said earlier, we have reserved our position as to which institutions of the EU as a whole should be usefully deployed in supporting the policing of this intergovernmental treaty. We have reserved our position on that. The report in the Times sounded a bit further forward than that and is not correct.

As to the Chancellor’s views, he has made it clear all along that a treaty that was going to reinforce a eurozone that was sustainable and which met a whole range of conditions, including full implementation of the October agreements, solving the Greek debt problem, recapitalisation of the banks and a proper liquidity structure throughout Europe, was the kind of thing that we would have supported, but that is not on the table at the moment. We will have to see how the intergovernmental treaty works, which of the existing 26 agree to it—not all of them may—and, as it proceeds, we will be supportive. But we do not want to sign up to the eurozone as it is because, as the noble Lord opposite said, and as all observers now recognise, despite their views to the contrary many years ago, the system is design-flawed.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick]

My Lords, will the Minister say what provisions, if any, of the intergovernmental agreement on the table in Brussels today are objectionable to the British Government? Will he confirm that even were we to sign that agreement and it became an amendment to the Lisbon treaty, none of its provisions would impose obligations of a legally binding kind on the United Kingdom unless and until we join the eurozone?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

The noble Lord’s last words are the key to the matter. The treaty on the table is designed for the 17, although others may go along with it. It will be debated in the various Parliaments. It is designed for the 17 and involves degrees of surveillance and control that are not congenial from the British point of view; we believe that we can best proceed not by being within and making constant objections and delaying the whole process of the 17 that want to go ahead, but by being supportive from outside. That is the position, which seems perfectly sensible and constructive.

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

My Lords, do the Government agree with their own lawyers who have advised that it is illegal to allow the ECJ to police something that is not in the treaties—in this case, the proposed fiscal compact’s debt brake rule? Would it not be wiser to insist that the eurozone follows its own law in the hope that that brings an orderly end to the euro, with a return to national currencies at agreed initial exchange and interest rates? Is that not the only sensible way forward?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

The noble Lord is letting his vivid imagination roam into the future. We have not reached the situation that he describes; perhaps we never will. I have made it clear that we reserve our position on how and which institutions should be used and how they may usefully be used to police the new intergovernmental treaty. These matters are yet to be decided; the position, I repeat, is reserved.

Pakistan

Lord Howell of Guildford Excerpts

Monday 30th January 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmed]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what representations they have made to the Government of Pakistan regarding the democratic process in that country.

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford)]

My Lords, between 11 and 13 January my and noble friend Lady Warsi visited Pakistan, where she called on Prime Minister Gilani and Foreign Minister Rabbani Khar. She expressed the UK view that a strong, stable, constitutional democracy was in the interests of Pakistan. We are following the political situation in Pakistan closely. We want Pakistan to enjoy credible elections that respect the constitution and help ensure stability.

[Lord Ahmed]

I thank the Minister for his reply. Does he agree that it is important for any democratically elected Government to show respect for law, the courts and public opinion, and to reject corruption, nepotism and bribery? Therefore, does he also agree that it is better to work with national institutions such as the civil service and the army to modernise and reform them rather than criticising them in public? Finally, will he help the Government of Pakistan try to negotiate some sort of peace deal with the Taliban in Pakistan?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

From the British point of view, the sentiments about how democratic Governments should develop are admirable. There are certain matters inside Pakistan that it is not our business to be concerned with or to solve; they lie with the people of Pakistan. However, the general principles that the noble Lord, Lord Ahmed, outlined are the right ones. Dealings with the Taliban, too, are a matter for the Pakistan Government. There are delicate and important areas where contact with the Taliban appears to be developing internationally. This may be part of the progress and help needed to see Afghanistan get on a better path.

[Lord Hussain]

My Lords, since Pakistan has been ruled by military dictators for a long time, and the present Government are the first in 35 years to complete four years in office, the lack of democratic continuity has weakened the state institutions. How can the Minister's Government help create an environment in which the democratic process will continue uninterrupted in Pakistan?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

The best way is the way which we are using: namely, playing a very forward part in assisting social, educational and institutional development in Pakistan. Pakistan is the largest recipient of United Kingdom aid: it will work out at about £446 million over the next three years to 2015. We have a huge programme of bringing more children into school—another 4 million out of the 17 million in Pakistan who still do not go to school. We are also playing a major role in other, very valuable social developments. Those are the conditions in which the better democracy that my noble friend rightly wants—and we all want—is most likely to grow.

[The Lord Bishop of Norwich]

My Lords, as we approach the first anniversary of the assassination of Shahbaz Bhatti, the Christian Minorities Minister, in Pakistan, does the Minister detect any signs of hope that Christians and other minorities will be able to play their fullest and most active part in the democratic process there?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

The right reverend Prelate rightly reminds us of a particularly horrific thing; and there have been other horrific murders as well. None of them is welcome. He asks whether I am optimistic and can offer reassurance that things will improve. We will do our best to support the development of a more peaceful, balanced and democratic Pakistan in every possible way; a Pakistan that tolerates faiths and removes the stain of attacks on minorities, including horrific attacks on the Christian community such as the ones that occurred. However, it would be misleading if I stood at the Dispatch Box and sounded optimistic notes about the future, which is still very precarious for all these faiths.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

My Lords, I commend the Minister for dealing with three out of four of today’s Questions in such detail. Will he confirm that he will still receive only his basic salary and not a performance bonus? Is that not an example to others?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I cannot confirm that because I do not receive a salary.

[Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville]

My Lords, does my noble friend welcome the recovery in Pakistan cricket? Does he further think that it would be a happy conclusion to the present series if we won the last test?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

In seeking a positive side of developments in Pakistan, I certainly had in my notes that its cricket was coming along quite well, but like my noble friend I rather hope that in the next round we do a little better.

EU: Disintegration

Lord Howell of Guildford Excerpts

Thursday 26th January 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they have contingency plans for the disintegration of the European Union.

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford)]

My Lords, the Government do not envisage the disintegration of the European Union. The United Kingdom remains a full member of the EU and we will continue to work hard with our many allies throughout Europe to advance our national interests, as well as those of all other EU member states.

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

My Lords, both Chancellor Merkel and President Van Rompuy have said that if the euro breaks up, the EU itself will follow suit. In case they are right, should we not plan to develop our trade and ties with the countries of the future, most particularly and obviously with the Commonwealth? Secondly, should we not be encouraged in this initiative by the knowledge that the EU was supposed to bring peace and prosperity to Europe, whereas in fact it has brought—

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

My Lords, that is now wishful thinking. The EU has in fact brought austerity, slump and civil unrest. What is the EU for? Why do we need it at all now?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

My Lords, we have to be clear-sighted about the future. In one respect the noble Lord is right: all the great growth in new consumer markets, and the areas in which we must succeed as a nation if we are to maintain—let alone increase—our living standards, tend to lie in the emerging powers of Asia, Africa and Latin America. That is where my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary has emphasised all along that we must develop our commercial, economic and political clout in order to survive. In that sense the noble Lord is right. However, at the same time, Europe is our neighbourhood and our biggest market. It is full of innovation and potential for the future. There are eurozone difficulties—no one denies that—at the moment, although with the European Central Bank now issuing unlimited three-year loans to all banks in trouble, there is at least a breathing space ahead on the question of the eurozone itself.

As to the specific matter of the Greek debt structure and how it will be resolved in the next few days, I really could not comment. However, one obviously hopes that it will be an orderly affair.

[Lord Dykes]

My Lords, if an aspiring Tory candidate for the other place decides to deny that he is Europhobic to the local party, he will not be selected. That means, logically, that UKIP is not fit for purpose, so will it not disintegrate much quicker than the eurozone recovers from its own crisis?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I am not sure that I quite get the ins and outs of all that. Generally, I hope my noble friend agrees with me that Europe is our neighbourhood but the world is our market, that we must have a balanced and sensible approach in developing good relations with a European Union which obviously requires reforming and modernising to meet the 21st century, and that we must also adjust our own nation to meet this new international landscape.

[Lord Peston]

My Lords, is it not a bit thick to blame the euro for our economic troubles when the Government are doing all they can with their own economic policies to destroy our economy?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I hear the view of one very learned economist but, as he knows, I think probably better than many economists, there are many different views, and that is very healthy. All economists tend to disagree with each other on these matters. Indeed, when they agree, they are usually wrong. As an ex-economist—a renegade economist—I am afraid that I have to disagree entirely with the noble Lord. I believe that our policies are the right ones to move us out of the colossal difficulties we face not only over the eurozone but the gigantic debt mountain that we were left by the previous Government.

[Baroness Gardner of Parkes]

My Lords, on this Australia Day, will the Minister confirm that he is well aware that the ties with the Commonwealth are already very strong and that everyone believes they will continue to be so?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

Yes, I can confirm that I am well, well, well aware of that. The Commonwealth is one of the great networks of the future and we are proud to be members of that network. Indeed, it provides a gateway to many of the great new markets that I was talking about a moment ago.

[Lord Kinnock]

My Lords, in the interests of equipping members of this noble House, can the Government arrange for the provision to the noble Lord, Lord Pearson of Rannoch, of a sandwich board with, “The end of the world is nigh” written on one side and, “Stop the world, I want to get off” on the other? Is it not true and does the Minister agree that the United Kingdom’s best interests are in remaining a strong member of a modernising European Union in order that we can effectively deal with what the noble Lord, Lord Pearson, calls “the countries of the future”—notably those in Latin America, China and India? They really respect and take us seriously because we are participants in the EU.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I mostly agree with the noble Lord that our European membership is very valuable in promoting trade interests and access to new markets. At the same time, the bilateral links on the Commonwealth network have their part to play. Therefore, as usual, the answers lie in a number of directions, and if it is a question of sandwich boards, the glory of this House is that we tend to avoid simplicities and single answers and see that in many of these areas the answers are complex and multifaceted.

Lord Triesman: My Lords, unlike the noble Lord, Lord Pearson, our concern relates to the Government’s plans to improve cohesion with European partners. Last week, the Minister told me that my view was itself too dramatic. However, a week of discussions with other European missions has suggested to me that it was not. What preparatory discussions did the Prime Minister have with the Heads of Government to prepare them for the steps he took at the December Council? What instructions were given to our ambassadors throughout the EU to prepare other Governments for the steps that the Prime Minister took at that Council?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

The details of this have been set out, particularly by my right honourable friend the Minister for Europe in front of the Lords European Union Committee the other day. I recommend that the noble Lord reads them. They are very detailed and answer his question very closely. Broadly, however, the preparations were of course there but had to be conditional on the initial drafts of what was going to be, and now is becoming, the intergovernmental agreement. It was presented in the first instance in December as a treaty for the 27. The draft of that was available only 24 hours before the actual meeting, so inevitably there had to be some last-minute reactions and adjustments, but at the end of it all it was perfectly clear that the safeguards sought by the Prime Minister were not going to be available and that haggling over an intergovernmental treaty that other members wanted to achieve rapidly would have been very disruptive. The best way was simply to say that we did not wish to be part of it, and that is what happened.

[Baroness Howarth of Breckland]

My Lords, if we are so influential in Europe, what are the Government doing to ensure that the financial framework matches the plans for 2020? At the moment, the common financial framework has not been adjusted to the 2020 planning, particularly regarding the work on the common agricultural policy, where a huge amount of funding continues to go into non-innovative processes.

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

Well, we are. The Government and many outside government continue to work to strengthen and reform all aspects of the European Union. The common agricultural policy is by no means set in concrete and certainly requires reform, as do infrastructure fund arrangements and many aspects of financial regulation, all of which can be improved. We are working away at those things all the time.