Passenger Railway Services (Public Ownership) Bill

Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill Excerpts

Consideration of Commons amendments
Wednesday 20th November 2024 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill]

That this House do not insist on its Amendment 1, to which the Commons have disagreed for their Reason 1A.

1A: Because the proposed purpose clause is unnecessary.

[The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill) (Lab)]

My Lords, in moving Motion A I will speak also to Motion B. I am grateful for the collaboration and engagement up to this point on the Bill, which is a critical step towards our manifesto commitment of reforming our fragmented railway system. This system has cost taxpayers and passengers dearly in huge fees paid to private operators and in the delays, cancellations, overcrowding and poor service that passengers have endured for far too long. There is a strong public desire for public ownership. In September, a YouGov survey found that 66% of people nationally agreed that railway operations should be run by the public sector and only 12% favoured private operation. I hope that the House can agree that we need to pass this Bill and move on to the critical work of the next one.

Motion A is about the purpose clause proposed by the noble Lords, Lord Gascoigne and Lord Moylan. I completely agree that public ownership and wider reform should be guided by a clear purpose, with users of the railway placed at the heart of that purpose. Turning specifically to Motion A1, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Gascoigne, I was disappointed to see that the noble Lords were insisting on this, despite the overwhelming majority against it in the other place. This is not in keeping with the collaborative approach that I hoped we were taking to the Bill in this House—and quite an unusual approach for this House to take as well.

The Government have already set out the purpose of public ownership and wider reform in our policy document Getting Britain Moving. This identified six objectives. People can see what they are and can hold the Government to account on delivering against them. These objectives are already at the heart of our decision-making. For example, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State and I have met the worst-performing train operating companies and their Network Rail counterparts and have demanded that they do better for passengers, right now. We have brought to an end long-running industrial disputes that inflicted misery on passengers. We have convened Network Rail and train operators to work together to tackle overcrowding at Euston and provide a better service for passengers. We have made new commitments about accessibility, following debates in this House, and we have pledged to increase transparency by publishing train performance data at stations. So there is no need to place a purpose on the face of the Bill—especially one that tells only part of the story.

I also remind noble Lords that during the previous Government’s 14 years in office, they never felt the need to legislate to impose this new statutory purpose on the Secretary of State, either in relation to the privatised railway or to the train operations that they chose to keep in public ownership for years—one now for six years—with no sign of a plan to return them to the private sector. However, I agree with noble Lords on all sides of the House that we must ensure that the future Great British Railways will have a clear purpose. In consulting on our wider reform plans, we will restate our objectives for the railway and its purpose. I assure noble Lords that delivering a reliable, punctual train services will be a prominent part of that purpose, as it already is.

I urge the House to support Motion A for two reasons. First, the purpose clause is unnecessary: we have already set out our objectives for the railway; we are already acting to achieve those objectives; and we are ready to be held to account for whether or not we deliver against them. Secondly, we will ensure that we set out a similarly clear purpose for Great British Railways in the forthcoming consultation.

Regarding Motion B, this House will be aware that Amendment 2 was rejected in the other place on the grounds of financial privilege. The Government understand the calls for the worst-performing services to be brought into public ownership first. But Amendment 2 was not the right approach. Its effect would be to delay the transfer of services into public ownership and so require taxpayers to continue to foot the bill for millions of pounds in fees for longer than necessary. Instead, the Government’s approach is the right one, and I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, and her noble friends for recognising this in previous debates.

We have made it clear that where the contracts we have inherited from the previous Government allow it, we will bring failing operators’ services into public ownership as soon as we can. There is sufficient flexibility in the existing contract expiry dates to allow us to do that without overwhelming the public sector operator. Beyond that, we will bring services in-house as existing contracts end. This will avoid paying compensation for early termination and will avoid delaying the benefits of public ownership, as Amendment 2 would have done.

I urge the House to support Motion B so that the Government can get on with delivering the benefits of public ownership in accordance with the very clear mandate on which they were elected. I beg to move.

Motion A1 (as an amendment to Motion A)

Moved by

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[Lord Snape (Lab)]

And perhaps learned; that is another point.

The fact is that these are delaying tactics by the party opposite. I am amazed that the Liberal Party should want to be associated with this amendment. It is contrary to custom and practice in this place—not that I am a great one for adhering to the rules, necessarily.

This is a meaningless amendment, putting a duty on the Secretary of State which he already has. What Secretary of State wants to do anything other than improve the railway system? I mean, he did not always succeed, though it might have been well-meant during the time of the party opposite, but certainly the Secretary of State’s intention at that time—at any time—would be to improve the railway system. It really is not necessary to add such a clause to this Bill. I would be grateful if my noble friend treated it with the contempt it deserved.

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in this debate. I will address just a few points.

I very much agree with the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, and his description of the previous Government as being dilatory. It is six and half years since the timetable went wrong in the north-west of England and on Thameslink, in May 2018, and nothing really has been done. The railway is suffering and its passengers are suffering, and something needs to be done about it. I have referred to this before but, at some speed, we will be consulting shortly about the content of the wider Bill to reform the railway. I think that differentiates this Government and the speed at which they choose to operate.

On Motion A, I want there to be no doubt that this Government will undertake reform with a clear purpose and direction. As published in Getting Britain Moving, our objectives are set and are more ambitious and wide-ranging than the proposed purpose clause. We want to see reliability, affordability, efficiency, quality, accessibility and safe travel as the DNA of our railways—the foundational values that drive reform and deliver on what passengers expect. Public ownership will be the first step in ensuring better services, by placing the passenger front and centre as we rebuild public confidence, trust and pride in our railway.

I listened carefully to the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, on the commitment that passengers should be at the core of the future of the railway. In that respect, the wider railways Bill is a different matter. It will establish Great British Railways as a new body at arm’s length from government, which will not be directly accountable to the electorate in the same way as the Government are. In that context, it is essential that the railways Bill should clearly set out two things.

The first of those is the functions of Great British Railways—what it is actually going to do. The second is what Great British Railways is supposed to achieve by exercising those functions—in other words, its purpose. I can absolutely confirm to your Lordships’ House today that the forthcoming railways Bill will set out both of those things, and that delivering improvements for passengers and maintaining high standards of performance will be a crucial part of its purpose. I will be more than happy to engage with the noble Baroness on how we express that in the Bill.

I urge your Lordships’ House to support the Government’s Motion A and to reject the amendment in Motion A1, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Gascoigne, for two reasons. First, it is unnecessary, because the Government have already set out our objectives for the railway, we are already acting to achieve those objectives, and we are ready to be held to account on whether we deliver against them as we transfer the services to public ownership under this Bill. Secondly, as I have just assured the House, we will ensure that the railways Bill sets out a clear purpose for Great British Railways.

With regard to Motion B, the Government simply cannot accept an amendment that would delay reform, therefore going against the wishes of the electorate, and which would place additional cost on the taxpayer. We will use every tool at our disposal to resolve poor performance, including contractual termination rights, where they are triggered.

On the Bill itself, public ownership is not only the will of the voters but the right step towards bringing an end to years of fragmentation. Tens of millions of pounds in fees will be saved each year due to public ownership and, with the new direction and focus that this Government are now providing, current in-house operations are already seeing a reduction in cancellations. The evidence that public ownership is the way forward is clear.

On top of this, poorly performing train operators are being held to account, as I described earlier, and with Great British Railways coming further down the line, this Government have shown that we are serious about reform. None the less, improvements are needed now, and the Bill starts that process.

[Lord Gascoigne (Con)]

My Lords, I thank everyone who spoke in this brief debate, particularly the two Opposition Front-Benchers. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, for Lib Dem support up to now; I hope that will continue. I am especially grateful to my very good friend, the noble Lord, Lord Snape. It is always a pleasure to hear from him. Before I came into this House, I was told repeatedly that everyone is very friendly, very compassionate, very polite and respectful. Yet, there we are.

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Moved by

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill]

That this House do not insist on its Amendment 2, to which the Commons have disagreed for their Reason 2A.

2A: Because it would alter the financial arrangements made by the Commons, and the Commons do not offer any further Reason, trusting that this Reason may be deemed sufficient.

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

My Lords, I have already spoken to Motion B. I beg to move.

Motion B agreed.

Aviation Safety (Amendment) Regulations 2024

Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill Excerpts

Wednesday 20th November 2024 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill]

That the draft Regulations laid before the House on 23 October be approved.

Relevant document: 6th Report from the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee. Considered in Grand Committee on 18 November.

[The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill) (Lab)]

My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.

[Lord Trefgarne (Con)]

I apologise if I did not make myself clear, but I am hoping to have a chance to talk about these regulations on another occasion. Is that possible?

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

My Lords, this lengthy and comprehensive statutory instrument was debated on Monday in Grand Committee and approved. This afternoon is the appropriate opportunity to move this Motion.

Motion agreed.

Bus Funding

Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill Excerpts

Tuesday 19th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, I am pleased to welcome the Statement made by the Secretary of State in the other place. Bus services outside London have been allowed to atrophy and die for far too long. They are vital to society and our economy. They are used by the poorest, the oldest and the youngest. Although we love to talk about trains here, buses are the most used form of public transport.

The funding information in the Statement, as far as it goes, is welcome, as are the commitments to reform. The situation with buses has been too complex, too fragmented, too short-term and too competitive. In practice, the competition has led to money going to, in effect, the councils that are best at filling in the forms rather than those most in need.

Courtesy of the Campaign for Better Transport, I have some illustrative statistics. Why should Swindon get £3.98 per head for buses and Reading, just down the road and not dissimilar in size, get £168.68 per head? No formula would explain that. Of course, Reading has extremely good buses as a result of extremely good funding.

There are currently six different funding pots. We need one single integrated fund with “long-term” written all over it, so can the Minister explain in more detail exactly how the current six funds will be amalgamated and repurposed?

I turn to the £3 bus fare cap and its impact. It is, of course, effectively a 50% fare increase in an industry that has already seen fares rise by 59% since 2015, so it will have a huge impact. Yet there were reports at the weekend that the Secretary of State had said that maybe it would be linked in some way to the rate of inflation. Will the £3 cap be applied in the same way as the £2 cap, or will it be amended in some way? What analysis have the Government made to lead them to abandon the £2 cap, which appeared to be working well?

In many areas, particularly rural areas, demand-responsive and Dial-a-Ride services are vital. I ask the Minister, because this is not mentioned in the Statement: what will the Government do to encourage these services to ensure proper co-ordination between local authorities, bus operators and other bodies, such as NHS trusts, so that rural areas get a better deal from the providers at various levels in their area and a structure that local people can rely on?

[The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill) (Lab)]

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, and the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, for their comments on this Statement, which was made by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Transport in the other place yesterday.

I turn first to the noble Lord’s comments. He correctly identifies a methodological change in the way this money has been allocated. The formula used is simple but, the Government think, fair. It relates equally, in thirds, to the level of population, so the greater the population of the local transport authority the more money; to bus mileage, so the greater the bus mileage, the more money; and to the index of multiple deprivation, published by the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government, which is the official measure of relative deprivation in England. That is a much fairer method of allocating money for a service that, as the noble Baroness said, is disproportionately used by people on lower incomes, women, the young and old, and is the mainstay of public transport in Great Britain.

The Government are entitled to make decisions about how they wish to spend money, but the point I most want to make is that the previous competitive system has all the disbenefits the noble Lord referred to—the time spent bidding, the costs, the use of consultants and the uncertain outcomes—whereas this method provides a much more certain way of allocating this money and is much fairer across the whole of England. Of course this money is not loose change; it is a substantial amount for a vital public service in Britain, but use of this formula is a much fairer way of allocating this money. In fact, a competition arbitrated by nameless officials on criteria that, frankly, have not been clear to the local authorities in the past is a much more likely source of rewarding “your mates”, as he refers to them, than this formula.

The noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, welcomed the Statement, and I thank her for that. There are, of course, differences in the allocations to local transport authorities, and I can probably account afterwards for the difference between Swindon and Reading. I will attempt to do so to her in due course. The allocations have been allocated by this formula and represent, in the Government’s view, a fair method of distributing a considerable amount of money. While there are some headings in the allocation—capital, revenue, some money for helping source officer help and so on—local authorities that receive the money are free to use it in the way they want. The principle the Government are delighted to have is that the capital sums can be used for new vehicles, bus stops, information systems or bus stations and the revenue can either support fares initiatives, in particular for the young—some combined authorities have kept the maximum fare at £2—or support services to enable a fair distribution of bus mileage throughout their towns and areas.

The reference the noble Baroness made to the £3 fare and the 50% fare increase is, of course, not so. Most bus journeys are short and are carried out in urban areas. With the £3 maximum, there are many fares that will not go up at all. The reference to inflation has been made by the Government to ensure that fares under £3 rise only by the rate of inflation, whereas the previous £2 limit encouraged some operators to put up their fares by far more than inflation to the £2 limit. The analysis of the effect of the maximum bus fare will be published by the department in due course.

Finally, the noble Baroness referred to demand-responsive transport and dial-a-ride. Local transport authorities that receive this money are able to spend it on bus services in the way that they want, so they are able to support demand-responsive services if those are the right way of dealing with their area. The principle is that local transport authorities know much better than government how the money is best spent. Therefore, this money has been distributed with great freedom to allow them to spend it in the right way for their area, to create economic growth and to support jobs and housing in the way that local transport does.

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[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

The noble Lord is right to refer to the innovation by the Harrogate Bus Company. There are two ways in which this formula, which I think is serviceable rather than rough and ready, works in operators’ favour. One is that it is proportionate to bus mileage, so places in which the present bus operator has done well will have more bus mileage, which is a good measure of saying roughly how much bus service there is. The other is that local authorities will get a capital allocation that can be and normally is used to support the purchase of vehicles. This formula works for good bus companies as it works for good local authorities, and I think it will be self-evident that the innovations that the noble Lord referred to will be replicated elsewhere.

[The Lord Bishop of St Albans]

My Lords, in a diocese such as mine, which covers Bedfordshire and Hertfordshire, where many people look outside the county for services—for example, many people in Bedfordshire go to hospitals in and work in Milton Keynes, in another county—lack of integration of the bus services is causing quite a lot of problems. How is the new system going to lead to more and better integration? Secondly, what consideration has been given to finding, I hope, free bus passes for school children, since our towns are absolutely gridlocked at rush hour, at a time when we need children to get on the buses, get exercise and learn independence rather than being driven one by one in cars causing huge jams?

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

I thank the right reverend Prelate for his question. The question of cross-border bus services is not altered, at least by this settlement, compared with previous settlements. But it is a question that the Government intend to address through the wider buses Bill, which will come before this House shortly. To some extent, you rely on local transport authorities to collaborate with each other, because the movement of passengers is quite often across local authority boundaries. We will have something more to say about that in due course.

The congestion caused by children travelling to school is a very common phenomenon in towns and cities throughout Great Britain. It is open to local transport authorities with the revenue element of this funding to devise schemes for cheaper bus fares for children and the Government will, of course, encourage them to do so, providing it is the right thing for their local area.

[Lord Liddle (Lab)]

My Lords, on this side of the House I am sure there is a very warm welcome for these proposals. Under the previous Government, when Boris Johnson was Prime Minister, a White Paper was produced which, if I remember correctly, was called Bus Back Better. At the time, I was a Cumbria county councillor and we had to put forward plans to see whether the Department for Transport would give us the money. We did not get any money, despite the problems of rural bus services in such a widespread geographical area as Cumbria. Frankly, the reason we did not get any money was that Cumbria was run by a Labour and Liberal Democrat joint administration. It was politics that decided it, not any attempt at objectivity. Does the Minister agree that a far better system is one where there is some rough and ready objectivity for some years ahead, which gives transport authorities an opportunity to plan?

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

I very much agree with my noble friend that a serviceable formula for the allocation of this money is a better thing to do, and to allocate some money to every local transport authority in England. The most damaging feature of all to bus services—which is a feature of the previous methodology of funding—is to have some money one year and no money the next. What happens in those circumstances is that supported services are withdrawn, the passengers disappear—either they cannot travel or they find some other method of travel—and it becomes much harder to re-establish those services. I will not bore the House with details, but I can find many examples across England of perfectly good services forced to be withdrawn because of the inadequate distribution of the previous funding. They are far more difficult to re-establish when funding turns up. The best thing you can have with a bus service is certainty of service over a long time.

[Viscount Hailsham (Con)]

My Lords, I go back to the question of increasing the cap to £3. In rural areas, such as I live, for a couple going shopping—for example, in Lincoln—several times a week, the cost would be quite challenging. Would the Minister reconsider limiting the uplift in the cap to, say, £2.50? It is a challenge for people in low-salary areas.

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

The raising of the cap from £2 to £3 was entirely necessary because of the fiscal position that this Government inherited. A cap of £3 is actually a pretty good cap in rural areas with long bus journeys compared with the previous fare structures. We know that many fares have gone down by 60%, 70% or 80% for passengers. Of course, there will be some who have to pay more under this system. The subject in question—the distribution of local bus funding for the next year—is designed to make sure that there are services to travel on. It is not just bus fares that matter. What matters equally is that there are buses to travel on. This distribution will ensure that there are buses across the whole of England, in local transport authority areas, to do so.

[Baroness Pidgeon (LD)]

My Lords, I welcome the Statement and the fact that we are talking about buses in the House, but in some parts of our country, including rural areas, bus services have not only been reduced but have vanished completely. What special support will the Government be providing to help rural authorities rebuild their bus services, including an integrated fund to support the switch to zero-emission buses? Can the Minister clarify, following the discussion we have just had, over what period this funding is being provided? As he has already outlined, single-year funding settlements and stop-start pots of funding will not reinvigorate our bus services across the country.

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

The funding provided by what is effectively a £1 billion settlement will allow local transport authorities in all areas to spend this money in the best possible way. I am very sympathetic to rural areas, where services have disappeared in the past, and I have explained some of the reasons why recently that might be the case. There is capital funding in this settlement for zero-emission vehicles, as there should be. It is for one year, but the spending review in the spring will no doubt give direction for future years. The equitable distribution of this through this serviceable formula is much more likely to result in service patterns across both rural and urban areas, which will be sustainable into the future.

[Lord Hampton (CB)]

My Lords, on 5 November, London bus drivers marched on Westminster to complain about their working conditions, including that most routes now have toilet facilities only at one end, meaning that drivers have three hours between toilet breaks, that the headway driving system sometimes requires drivers to break the speed limit, and that conditions within cabs can become unbearably hot or cold. In all this talk about funding, could the Minister assure us that drivers will not be forgotten?

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

The noble Lord might know that, for some years I was responsible for the London bus service. I am not any longer; the Mayor of London is. I would question some of the things the noble Lord has asserted, simply because I know through prior knowledge that we spent an awful lot of time and money providing far more toilet facilities for bus drivers in London than anybody had done before. I would question whether any responsible operator licensed by the traffic commissioners would commission schedules which expected buses to exceed the speed limit.

What I would say to the noble Lord is that it is very important that bus drivers are paid properly and looked after properly, and that their scheduled and actual hours comply with the law. To that end, the Driver and Vehicle Standards Agency will inspect those operations, whether in London or elsewhere. The traffic commissioners will take action against operators that do not comply with the legislation in respect of the operation of urban bus services.

[Baroness Pinnock (LD)]

My Lords, reliability of services is as important as fare levels to bus users. Many folk in my patch in west Yorkshire tell me that they were at risk of losing their jobs because they could not get to work on time because the bus failed to turn up. I can confirm that. I had decided to travel from my hometown to Leeds on the bus, and the first two buses were cancelled going, and, on the way back, three were cancelled. This was in the middle of a Friday afternoon. Reliability is absolutely key to encouraging people to use buses. What will this new funding formula do to penalise the providers of bus services if they cannot provide a reliable service?

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

The reliability of bus services is terribly important to the people who use them and to the local economies of the places where they operate. This funding formula of itself will not affect the reliability of services, other than to give local authorities more resources for the officers and skills to be able to manage local bus services that they procure. The real penalty for unreliable operation of bus services outside London lies, currently at least, with the Driver and Vehicle Standards Agency and the traffic commissioners, which can bring operators in front of them when they fail to operate the services that they have registered.

One reason why conurbations, led by the Mayor of Greater Manchester, are looking at franchising bus services is so that they can have greater control. In those cases where operations are franchised, there is a different way in which to penalise operators. In fact, one of the successes in Manchester has been a much higher level of reliability, not only because there is more direct control over the provision of the bus service but because the Mayor of Greater Manchester is taking a much stronger interest than previously in the ability of the road network to enable reliable bus operation. I would expect that to be replicated in other combined authority areas that choose to go down the route of bus franchising.

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

My Lords, I congratulate my noble friend on this Statement. It is not before time, and it is really good that we have a much longer-term commitment to the provision of cost-effective buses—which is, after all, what a very large proportion of the population need for their everyday use. As my noble friend said, buses are needed for going to work, school, college and so on, and I am sure that this will be very welcome around the country.

There is one group of conurbations that cannot be helped by this bus Statement, because there are no roads. I refer to the Isle of Wight, which does not have any roads to the mainland, and which has a population of over 100,000. Where I live, in the Isles of Scilly, the population is a bit smaller, at 2,500, but it certainly does not have any roads to the mainland. The people who live in those places still need access for everyday use—for visits to hospitals, schools and so on. Would my noble friend consider meeting some of the people involved to see whether there is not a similar formula that could be adapted for the sea routes, rather than the air routes, to give the residents of these island groups a fairer bite of the cherry, as is now going to be delivered to the rest of the country?

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

My noble friend has raised this subject before, certainly with respect to the Isles of Scilly, and I am also familiar with the issues raised by the two Members of Parliament there are now for the Isle of Wight at a recent meeting with my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Transport and me. Of course, there is a very comprehensive bus service on the Isle of Wight and it will be supported by payments to the local transport authority there. I am not sure whether the rather smaller bus service on the Isles of Scilly is supported in that manner, but if the noble Lord would like me to find out I will do so.

Ferry services are very different. I know that the issues with the Isle of Wight, in particular, have been raised with the Secretary of State for Transport, and I will write to the noble Lord on where we are with that.

Aviation Safety (Amendment) Regulations 2024

Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill Excerpts

Monday 18th November 2024 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill]

That the Grand Committee do consider the Aviation Safety (Amendment) Regulations 2024.

Relevant document: 6th Report from the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee

[The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill) (Lab)]

My Lords, these regulations were laid in draft before this House on 23 October 2024. They amend existing aviation safety regulations to update certain provisions, and cover matters including: new requirements for altimeter checks; modernising fuel schemes and fuel planning; all-weather operations; improvements to flight crew training and checking; and safety management systems. These regulations will bring UK law into alignment with amendments to international law, upholding our international obligations, as well as making corrections and amendments to assimilated law.

I start by providing some background information about these regulations. As a member state of the International Civil Aviation Organization, or ICAO, the UK has agreed to implement international standards and recommended practices—SARPs—in domestic law. SARPs are technical specifications for aviation safety contained in annexes to the Convention on International Civil Aviation and adopted by the ICAO. As a member state, we are obliged to implement any amendments made to SARPs in domestic law unless impracticable to comply or not relevant to our system. Where this is the case, member states must file a difference notifying the ICAO that there are discrepancies between SARPs and domestic law. The majority of differences filed by the UK are either because legislative changes are yet to be undertaken or are in progress, are legacy differences inherited from assimilated EU regulations that we will incorporate over time, or, as mentioned, they are not appropriate for the UK system.

The draft regulations will bring UK law into alignment with amendments to Annexes 6 and 14 to the Convention on International Civil Aviation. Annexes 6 and 14 contain SARPs relating to the operation of aircraft and aerodromes respectively. The updates pertain to: enhancing fuel planning systems; widening all-weather operations—the ability of aircraft to take off and land under low-visibility conditions; improving flight crew training and checking; and updates to new and continuing airworthiness requirements around safety management systems. It also corrects and supplements amendments to assimilated law made by the Aviation Safety (Amendment) Regulations 2023. The regulations also reinstate two provisions erroneously removed by the Aviation Safety (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2020. These draft regulations were supported by the previous Government and were due to be laid in July this year. However, due to the general election, they were laid in October.

On the detail of the regulations, the draft regulations introduce the concept of fuel schemes for commercial air transport which requires fuel planning both pre and in-flight to ensure the minimum fuel level required for an aircraft to remain airborne and land safely, and provides greater flexibility for operators by moving these requirements to guidance published by the Civil Aviation Authority. It also clarifies the rules for helicopter fuel planning, including safety-related issues around refuelling with rotors running. The regulations also allow for the use of advanced technologies available to pilots, such as enhanced flight vision systems, when flying under low-visibility conditions, and improves existing mandatory crew training and checking requirements for air operators.

The draft regulations also correct errors arising from, and make further amendments to support those made by, the Aviation Safety (Amendment) Regulations 2023, which were made to implement international standards relating to safety management systems. Although the irregularities and inconsistencies in the regulations introduced by the errors have not caused a safety issue, the department acknowledges that the errors could impact the ease of use of the regulations by industry. The draft regulations therefore correct the errors to avoid any confusion that could lead to a safety issue in the future.

Turning to scrutiny from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments and the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee, I am pleased to say the draft regulations were cleared by the Joint Committee. At the request of the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee, a revised Explanatory Memorandum has been laid, which now includes a link to the Civil Aviation Authority’s consultation response document on all-weather operations, fuel planning and management.

Before turning to my closing comments, I bring attention to some minor typographical errors identified within the draft regulations since they were laid. A correction slip has been issued to amend these errors, and the corrections have been incorporated into the draft regulations.

We should continue to ensure that aviation remains among the safest forms of travel, as the safety of aviation and the travelling public is a priority to the Government. These draft regulations represent a further step in ensuring this remains the case. Some of the provisions in the draft regulations introduce new ways of using pre-existing technology, which are done with the aim of further improving aviation safety. They also correct errors to make certain the regulations are clear. Moreover, by upholding our commitments to implement international aviation safety law, we maintain not only high aviation safety standards but our reputation as a world leader in aviation safety. I beg to move.

[Lord Glenarthur (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for his explanation of this fairly deep document and all that it contains. I should declare an interest because I have many years’ experience, both as a military helicopter pilot in the 1970s and 1980 and in the late 1970s and 1980s with British Airways Helicopters, as they were. I have been for many years involved with the British Helicopter Association. It used to be the British Helicopter Advisory Board, of which I was chairman—I forget for how long but for about 12 to 15 years—and I have been president of the association for about 14 years.

Can the Minister confirm that the BHA, the British Helicopter Association, was consulted on these matters? Can he also expand on what is in these regulations about the potential viability of point-in-space operations, which apply particularly to aircraft conducting emergency service work, often in the Highlands and Islands or out to sea? Because of the unavailability of the European satellite system—which we were able to use but, now we are out of the EU, we cannot—the facility and flexibility for helicopters, and no doubt other aircraft as well, to use these particular forms of approach is now put in peril. I know consideration has been given to this, but I very much hope that something can be done. One of the last points I should like to make is that the flexibility of the helicopter to undertake operations in that sort of way is unique. Those of us who have been involved with the emergency services and other areas would hate to see that diminished in any way, because science has moved on enormously since I became involved in it all in the late 1970s and early 1980s. I hope that the Minister can give some comfort to me on that.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Moylan (Con)]

My Lords, I shall be disappointingly brief. I thank the Minister for arranging a briefing with his officials, and I thank those officials for the time that they gave. Various pertinent questions have been raised in the course of this short debate, and I look forward to hearing the Minister answer them. I had one question that I raised with his officials, relating to the extent and effectiveness of the consultation exercise with the smaller operators in particular. I understand that, if the Minister is unable to give an answer to that this afternoon, his officials are preparing to give a written answer to that question later.

The previous Government prepared these regulations. At their heart is not a question about alignment of texts or legality but the question of safety in practice. We are all agreed that we want aviation to be, as the Minister said, one of the safest modes of travel. It has been for a very long time, and we want it to continue to be so. The Minister has assured us that these regulations represent a further step in ensuring safety in aviation and, on that basis, this side is more than happy to support them.

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

My Lords, I shall attempt to deal with the questions from noble Lords who have spoken. I will do my best, but some of them will have to be answered in writing, I am afraid. I shall answer in order.

The noble Lord, Lord Glenarthur, asked whether the British Helicopter Association had been consulted. An email went to all UK parties, plus the SkyWise notification for the consultation, and all interested parties had the opportunity to participate in the public consultation. As noble Lords can work out from that answer, I cannot say whether the British Helicopter Association replied, but I am happy to write to the noble Lord subsequently. I will come on to the EU satellite issue in a moment.

The noble Lord, Lord Kirkhope, asked about the shortage of facilities for training pilots. I will have to write to the noble Lord to state the position on that. He also asked about general aviation. I am assured that this is aimed at commercial operators. I will write to the noble Lord about whether we believe there is a gap and, if so, how it should be filled.

The noble Lord, Lord Young, asked principally about sustainable aviation fuels. We discussed the statutory instrument about sustainable aviation fuel with the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, only a few days ago. The Government intend it to be used as part of the airline industry’s move to net zero. My understanding is that sustainable aviation fuel is not made legal by these regulations but can already be used. I will write to him with pleasure to confirm that that is the case. The references to fuel or energy sources are about making sure that these regulations are fit for the future and for the alternative energy sources that might be used to fuel aeroplanes.

The noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, spoke about the grey area relating to the dreadful incident to which she referred. These regulations do not apply to what she described as the “grey area”. Again, if there is a case to write to her to say how that grey area is being addressed, I am happy to do so.

The noble Baroness also referred to issues about getting up to date. I am informed that we need to adhere to international standards and recommended practices and that we have not been aligned to the standards referred to in the draft regulations for between four and 12 years, that we filed differences against all of them with ICAO and that no risks to safety have arisen from that period of misalignment. However, UK operators were at a competitive disadvantage compared with EU member states because regulations similar to those in these draft regulations were implemented there in October 2022. This now brings us up to date.

I cannot deal with the issues that were raised about the EU satellite system, so I will write to the noble Baroness and the noble Lord about them.

Finally, the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, asked whether this applies to aircraft not licensed in the UK. It does.

I welcome the recognition by the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, of the desirability of ensuring that our airline industry and aircraft are as safe as they can be. I am grateful to him for his assurance that he is as keen on that as we are.

I again thank all noble Lords for attending the debate and for their input. I will write to noble Lords who have raised questions that I cannot answer on this statutory instrument.

[Lord Moylan (Con)]

Will the Minister send copies of those letters to all of us who have participated in the debate?

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

I thank the noble Lord for his interjection. Yes, I will do that.

I conclude by saying—as I already have, actually—that the safety of aviation and the travelling public is a priority for the Government. The department is committed to ensuring that aviation remains safe. As part of this, the draft regulations form part of an important legislative programme that implements international aviation safety standards in domestic law. The implementation of international law ensures that the UK remains a world leader in maintaining high aviation standards and meeting our international obligations.

Motion agreed.

Rail Performance

Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill Excerpts

Wednesday 13th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, that this is a real time filler of a Statement, and I will not waste the time of this House by repeating some of the points he has just made that I had picked up on. Instead, I will ask the Minister some questions that flow from the rather superficial things in the Statement.

The Statement refers to ticket simplification but that is obviously still a long way off and what is being offered is a very modest measure. What passengers want to see is some kind of outward sign that the Government are taking seriously the fact that they are getting a very poor service at a very high price.

Fares went up by 5% this year and are scheduled to go up by a similar amount in March. I urge the Government to look at that again. Indeed, I challenge them to look at it again and to freeze fares in March at the current levels in recognition of the fact that rail services are not good enough to justify fare increases.

The Statement includes an update on LNER and refers to improvements in driver availability on the line. Unfortunately, that is not a general picture. Both Great Western Railway and Northern Trains regularly cite non-availability of drivers and train crew as a reason for cancellation. Can the Minister tell us what the Government are doing, across all train operators, to deal with failures of recruitment and training? That is clearly what must be happening at the moment. I fear this situation could get worse as train operators come towards the end of their franchises. I am interested in the Government’s strategy to stop this system, which is bad and getting worse.

Finally, the Statement references an improvement in industrial relations, but the Government face a big challenge as the nationalised train operator moves to one harmonised set of terms and conditions. What are the Government intending to do to ensure that the inevitable levelling up of terms and conditions properly modernises the industry and does so at a cost that taxpayers and passengers can afford, and when will they do it?

[The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill) (Lab)]

I thank the noble Lord and the noble Baroness for their comments. I start by saying that I could not disagree more with either of their descriptions of the Secretary of State’s Statement in the other place. All my experience as a public transport operator is that people really care about the service that they are offered on a daily basis, and I think that we should welcome the Secretary of State making a Statement about things that are happening on the railway for the service of passengers. It is really very welcome. It is very important that it is recognised as a Statement by the Secretary of State for passengers, about what is going on.

I disagree with the suggestion from the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, that these things are trivial. It is absurd, frankly, that on many journeys in northern England which are served by two companies—both owned by the Government—tickets are valid only on one of them and passengers might get fined for getting on the wrong-coloured train. Ticket acceptance, both in normal times and when services are disrupted, ought to be completely obvious, but the railway does not allow it, not even when the companies have the same owner—it is just extraordinary.

The noble Lord referred to CrossCountry cancellations being reduced. The reason they and the timetable are reduced—much to my irritation and that of the Secretary of State—was that the company which ran it suddenly found that it did not have enough drivers available. It appeared to be extraordinarily sudden, and I will come back to that in due course. The noble Lord mentioned delay minutes on TPE, but sadly his counterpart in the other place had not looked in a sufficiently granular manner at the statistics. In the last 12 months, as well as cancellations going down on TPE, delays have reduced; the statistics that were quoted were four-year statistics. I do agree with the noble Lord that it is more than this, and that is why we have said consistently—and I have been able to say consistently in discussing the Bill on which we have just had Third Reading—that there will be a much bigger Bill. But it is really important that things happen now, because people are travelling on the railway every day and they care about the service they are offered. They are offended by the stupidity of some of the existing rules which are the result of the balkanisation of the railways, and we should fix them.

Of course, the major ticket simplification that the noble Baroness referred to is a long way off, but it is one of the purposes of the Bill that has just had its Third Reading. Until we can control the fares structure and the information about fares and ticketing, it will not be possible to reform the fares system in the way that people want. The noble Lord, Lord McLoughlin, has reminded me several times of his ambition to do that in his time as Secretary of State for Transport and his frustration from not being able to do it. The fact is that we will not be able to do it until we have got hold of information that is currently commercially confidential, even though it is on a risk that has been taken wholly by the public sector since Covid.

The driver availability issues are legion, so it is worth talking about them briefly. LNER has improved because we have solved the industrial dispute. Drivers are now working rest days and cancellations are now virtually zero. However, there are cancellations on other train companies, which are caused by a railway-wide shortage of drivers—a shortage of people and a shortage of the knowledge to drive all the routes and knowledge of the tracks on which they drive. It seems astonishing, but we have had to commission work to find out how many drivers the railway is short of, because no previous Government collected that information in order to deal with it.

The Government are doing a huge amount. In the business plans of all the train operators next year, one of the inputs that I want to see is how many drivers are being trained and the availability of those drivers. I can tell your Lordships that, over my nearly 50-year career in public transport, the first thing you want to understand is how many staff you have, what they do and where they are. The fact that we cannot account for that over the railway as a whole demonstrates that we do not have workforce planning in anything like the way that we would want.

The noble Baroness made some assumptions about the future of terms and conditions on the railway. In Committee and in other discussions on the Bill, we have not made our minds up yet about what to do. However, she is right that we need a modernisation of those conditions. I used to feel uncomfortable with the pay and conditions of Tube drivers when I ran Transport for London, but it took me some time to realise that at least they were rostered for seven-day weeks. Most of the railway asks people to cover work on Sundays on a voluntary basis, which is, if not Edwardian, Victorian. Nobody sought to change it, but we must change it, because it is unacceptable both to ask the staff to give up their work rest days and to ask the passengers to tolerate a service where people are not rostered to cover what is in the timetable.

My response to both the noble Lord and the noble Baroness is that these things are important. I welcome the Secretary of State making the Statement in the other place, because people want to know not only that we have a great plan to reform the railway but that we are doing something about it now. She said what we were doing and some of it is good news.

[Baroness Deech (CB)]

My Lords, I have twice invited the Minister to come to see the shambles and chaos in Oxford caused by Network Rail, but he has not so far taken up my invitation. Patients and doctors who need to get to hospital have not been able to get through the blockage caused by Network Rail for nearly two years, with no end in sight. The project has failed; it is bogged down in mud and a lack of resources. All the residents of west Oxford are blocked from accessing the station unless they can afford a £50 taxi fare around the ring road. I have appealed to the Minister and the Secretary of State to do something about it, but I hereby repeat my invitation: come and see the businesses that have closed, the people who are limping towards the station and the children who cannot get to school. It is a real disaster—please see it and sort it out.

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

I absolutely understand the noble Baroness’s discontent and irritation with the situation in Oxford. What I have promised her, and indeed other important stakeholders, is that when we understand what the solution to this issue is, and that will be soon, I will come very willingly and will bring with me the chief executive of Network Rail, who is equally embarrassed—in fact, it is now his job rather than mine directly—and we will talk directly with everybody about the situation. It is very unfortunate and unsatisfactory. In the meantime, I have said to the noble Baroness and others who have written to me that, if they think that we can do any more to alleviate the position of the people in west Oxford, all she needs to do is to write to me and we will do everything we can.

[Baroness Humphreys (LD)]

My Lords, the new Avanti trains on the west coast north Wales line are very welcome, but access to those trains is sometimes difficult, with large gaps between the train and some platforms. Can any remedial action be taken to ensure the safety of passengers, especially those with limited mobility?

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

The noble Baroness raises a subject that I feel that I should know more about than I do. I know the general issue, and one of the benefits of a coherent, integrated railway ought to be that Great British Railways should be considering level boarding far more deeply than anybody on the railways has generally done. That criticism can be levelled at most parts of the British railway system, with some notable exceptions.

I will now go and look at the compatibility or incompatibility of the trains and the platforms in north Wales. You have to remember that the platforms were largely built in that case in the 1840s, and not much has happened to them since. However, I recognise that it is a huge problem and I recognise the access issue, which always or nearly always calls for ramps and people to deploy them. It is unsatisfactory. Sadly, the infrastructure lasts for a very long time indeed, and the trains last for a long time, and it is a subject on which Great British Railways will have to do better than the railway has done for the last 50 years.

[Viscount Stansgate (Lab)]

My Lords, I am not a current active user of Euston Station but, in the course of my lifetime, I know well enough what experience you can have at that station, and it has often been quite dismal. However, I am encouraged by the Statement, which refers to “a 100-day plan of rapid improvements”. Can my noble friend the Minister outline a little more what he hopes will be the situation that will make the business of using Euston a more pleasurable experience for passengers?

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

I thank my noble friend for that question. I was at Euston a week last Monday, hearing about the details of the plan. The station itself was very modern in 1968; it is no longer very modern. As a previous chair of Network Rail, I can tell your Lordships that if you look closely at the columns in the station, there are bands around the marble because it would fall off without them. The station is no longer in a fit condition. I would like to take some modest credit for having reincluded the concourse at Euston in the overall plan for the redevelopment of Euston and, now that the tunnels for HS2 will go there, I am very hopeful that all parts of the station will be fit for passenger usage in the future.

However, in the meantime, the most important parts of the 100-day plan are the following. The concourse is too small, so the logical thing to do on the concourse is to load the trains earlier, yet the position up until very recently was that neither of the train companies routinely managed to do that. However, they are now changing. So, a significant proportion of Avanti trains will be loaded at least 20 minutes before departure and, for the more local services on the London Northwestern trains, the platforms will be full of passengers even before the train has arrived. That will make a huge difference. There is a bookshop there currently that will not be there shortly, to create some space. I recall that we got criticism for removing Boots, but too many shops and not enough concourse space is the wrong answer. There will also be some further improvements to signage and visibility. When the last signage was done, it was hoped that it was the right job, but I am afraid it turned out not to be.

I hope that that is sufficient granular detail, but, if my noble friend would like to make himself available, either I or somebody else will show him around Euston Station, and I can get them to show him what is going to happen.

[The Lord Bishop of Manchester]

My Lords, I am grateful for what we have just heard. As somebody who frequently travels between Manchester and London Euston, I know that, at Manchester, I can often get on the train 20 minutes before it is due to leave and settle down, but at Euston it is a mad dash. It has still been like that, even in recent weeks. I want to focus on more local rail services. When I last spoke in this House on that subject, I asked the Minister whether there was any progress on allowing Greater Manchester—which now has control of the buses and the metro system—to take control of local rail as well. Integrating the transport system in a major city, as happens in London, is absolutely crucial. I can get to Manchester and then it takes me an hour to get home, out of the city, even though it is only two miles away. Is the Minister able to give us a progress report on that?

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

My previous statement about Euston could be added to only by saying that it would be very good if Avanti would like to run all the train services.

As far as the local rail services in Manchester go, I was with the Mayor of Greater Manchester last Thursday—six days ago—and there have been a lot of discussions between Transport for Greater Manchester and the department about a package of measures so that the mayor can replicate the success of his Bee Network for buses and the Metrolink with the railway service. Indeed, some of the discussion with the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, and her colleagues about the Bill that had its Third Reading earlier was about greater devolution. The mayor has an aspiration to have much more control over the local railway service, and I think we have a plan coming together to achieve that. The substantive railway Bill will give combined authority mayors a statutory role in that. In advance of that, we are making significant progress on fares, ticketing and service levels.

My final point is that the service, particularly with Northern, has been ravaged by driver shortages and industrial disputes. I referred earlier to an industrial dispute on Northern that has been going on for nine years and has not improved either the morale of the staff, customer service, or the reliability of the train service. We have resolved a dispute with Northern drivers and we are on the cusp of resolving a dispute with its conductors. That would be much to the benefit of all local rail travellers in Manchester and north-west England.

[Lord Sterling of Plaistow (Con)]

My Lords, I brought this up a few weeks ago. Apart from passengers—and the noble Lord knows more than anybody else on this subject—the main thing about the railway system is trade. I talked then about when I wanted to buy a trade line. At the time, P&O—or the Peninsular and Oriental Steam Navigation Company, if noble Lords really want its full name—controlled well over 25% of all transport in this country, and I wanted to buy a freight line. At that time, a huge number of trucks—thousands of them—were going up and down the main roads. We wanted to take all that freight on to the railway system. We controlled only about 3% of trade in continental Europe, but we wanted to take freight right the way through to Istanbul—2,500 miles and further. We are where we are today. The Minister knows much more about this than almost anybody else in this House, but there are thousands of vehicles going up and down the trunk lines. In practice, they could be taken off the roads, as is done in China and other great nations, particularly America, where the railway systems move all freight and heavy freight. At a time when we really want to make this much cleaner in this country, I suggest that that is something of great importance that should be considered.

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

The Government are committed to growing railway freight. I made a commitment during the passage of the Bill, the Third Reading of which we had today, that the Government would institute a growth target to increase freight traffic by rail in this country. The companies that do it are, for the most part, privately owned; they are commercial businesses and the terms on which they deal with the freight that they run are largely for them. However, the Government have some schemes to assist new freight flows and we will continue to look to do so in the future.

[Lord Watts (Lab)]

My Lords, I congratulate the Minister. After 13 or 14 years of a Government who seemed committed to keeping a dispute with the rail unions going for as long as they could and doing nothing to solve the problems of the railway, today we are hearing of all the problems that still exist, but they are historic. I am very pleased that the Minister is doing a root-and-branch attack on all the issues that need to be addressed if we are to have a modern railway system. Does he agree that we need to move as quickly as we can?

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

I do.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, further to the question asked by the noble Baroness, Lady Humphreys, on the condition of the platforms along the north Wales line, if the Government can find £100 million for bat runs relative to HS2, surely they can find a fraction of that money to help disabled people along the north Wales coast.

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

The provision in HS2 for bats is a whole other subject, but I sympathise with the drift of the noble Lord’s argument. We should be doing as much as we can to enable access to the railway system by everyone. The noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, who is in her place, knows that we have not been very good at it so far. I made a commitment to the House during the passage of the Bill of which we had the Third Reading today that we would do more. Level access, which I have already referred to, is an important subject. It is hard to crack but we should start, because if we do not start then we will never finish.

[Lord Murphy of Torfaen (Lab)]

Regarding HS2 and Old Oak Common, what is going to happen to services from Wales and the West Country over the next number of years with the effective semi-closure of Paddington station?

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

I thank my noble friend for that question. I met, I think, every Member of Parliament west of Bristol two days ago, and they all had the same question. The work at Old Oak Common for the HS2 station and the construction of an interchange station on the Great Western main line, which also serves the Elizabeth line, is a big undertaking. I agreed then, and say again now, that one of the questions is whether it needs to be so disruptive, and so disruptive now. To answer that I am going to meet all the parties involved in the next few days. It is a big job at Old Oak Common, but I understand the views of those who use the Great Western main line. I will attempt to answer those questions and see what can be done to alleviate the delay during building and its effects after construction.

[Baroness Morris of Bolton (Con)]

My Lords, can I take the Minister back to Manchester and the Northern line, which I use every week? Not only are the trains regularly cancelled but, when you are waiting at the station for the next train for either Blackpool North or Barrow, it regularly has only three of its six coaches. Can the Minister explain why that is?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

I thank the noble Baroness for her question. I am not sure that I can explain that, but the too-frequent short formation of trains on the national railway system is wholly unsatisfactory. It is one of the things that the Government need to deal with. Part of it is a shortage of rolling stock, some of which is due to the complexity of the arrangements for their procurement, lease and operation. One of the reasons for the reform process, which I deeply care about, is that, in the end, somebody should be in charge of demonstrable parts of the railway system. They should have under their control the staff who operate the system, the rolling stock and the infrastructure, so that there is nowhere to go for an excuse.

Everybody on the railway blames everybody else; even in Network Rail, I found myself reading the morning’s performance and thinking, “Thank goodness that’s not my fault”. That is entirely the wrong way to think about it. When I ran Transport for London, as the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, knows, everything was my fault, and it was our job as the management to fix it. That is what we want out of a revised structure for the railway. I want to see somebody who says to themselves every morning as they get up, “That train service is mine. Why does it not run properly? How are we going to fix it so that yesterday’s problems do not occur tomorrow?” I am absolutely passionate about that, because I did it for nine and a half years at Transport for London; if you can do it in one of the world’s great cities, you can do it on defined parts of this railway network.

Passenger Railway Services (Public Ownership) Bill

Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill Excerpts

3rd reading
Wednesday 13th November 2024 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill]

That the Bill do now pass.

[The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill) (Lab)]

My Lords, I am hugely grateful for the robust and detailed scrutiny from all sides of this Chamber on what is an important and landmark Bill. The Government were clear in their manifesto commitment to bring passenger services back into public ownership, and we shall not pass up the opportunity to do so. We have taken a significant step towards achieving this over these last weeks. Six and a half years after the timetable crisis of May 2018, I am delighted that we have finally begun the process of reforming our railways.

I shall briefly update the House on the position of the devolved Governments. There has been constant and constructive engagement undertaken to date with both the Scottish and Welsh Governments, in keeping with this Government’s commitment to reset the relationship with the devolved Governments. I am pleased to confirm that the Motion has passed each respective Parliament. This demonstrates the unified belief in the necessity and relevance of this Bill.

I thank all colleagues involved in this process. It has been a privilege to take this Bill, one of the first major pieces of legislation for this Government, through this House. On a personal level, I am grateful to be part of the process to improve the industry, which can deliver so much for growth, jobs, housing and the Government’s missions, and to which so many are vocationally committed.

I owe thanks to my noble friend Lady Blake, who so admirably and impressively stepped in to act on my behalf for the Bill’s Second Reading. Her guidance and support on the Front Bench have been of great help.

We will finally have trains that are run for the public by the public. The Secretary of State for Transport said in the other place that her aim is to move fast and fix things. The Bill is the first step towards unravelling a failing, fragmented system and instead places the interests of passengers and freight front and centre. There is a lot of work ahead, and separate legislation will be introduced later to address the much-needed wider reforms. I extend my gratitude to a number of noble Lords who have dutifully engaged with and examined the Bill.

I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, on his substantive appointment as the shadow Minister and on his unique and effective style of questioning. It is by no means the first time the noble Lord and I have worked together; he will recall in particular election night in 2010 when, under his and the previous Mayor of London’s political direction, we joyfully took Tube lines back into public ownership—another example of a failed transfer of public assets, in that case to a public/private consortium. However, I should remind him that we needed no reports or further constraints in making the Tube better as a result. We both knew that public ownership itself would bring greater accountability and improvements in performance, and in order to achieve that the noble Lord himself was appointed chair. I hesitate to mention it, but it was a direct appointment without competition. I have no doubt that the noble Lord will feel a similar sense of triumph today as this Bill passes to the other place.

I pay tribute to his colleagues, the noble Lords, Lord Gascoigne, Lord Lansley and Lord Young of Cookham, and I thank them greatly for their most constructive and courteous engagement. I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, for her valued contribution, and I thank the noble Baronesses, Lady Pidgeon, Lady Scott of Needham Market, Lady Finlay and Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb, and the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, for their input in the Chamber and our separate meetings. The noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, has of course seen it all and is a great champion and mentor for a joined-up, coherent railway.

I place on record my gratitude to the noble Baronesses, Lady Brinton and Lady Grey-Thompson. Their powerful contributions to the debates were moving, thought provoking and essential. I will not take lightly what they have shared in this Chamber. My hope is for us together to build the passenger experience for many, including the disabled, into a source of shared pride rather than a confidence-sapping lottery.

I say to my noble friends Lord Sikka, Lord Liddle, Lord Berkeley, Lord Snape, Lord Tunnicliffe and Lord Hanworth that their wisdom is hugely beneficial, so I extend my thanks to them for sharing it and for their counsel. Additionally, I thank all the officials who have supported me, especially the Bill team, who have worked so hard. Their names are Emma, Matt, Sophie, Heidi, Dani, Emily, Tom, Gabriel and Marisa, and I thank them all. Finally, I thank the Lord Speaker and the parliamentary staff.

This Bill is the first step in changing the culture of the railway and how it works in order to put passengers and freight back at the heart of the system. Only by these means can we start the great process of the reform of our railways to deliver passengers and freight better across Great Britain. I beg to move.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister and his team, who have been exceptionally generous with their time in offering advice and assistance on the Bill. The Minister has been willing to give many of the details that we sought about the much-anticipated big Bill that we expect next year.

In addition, the Minister offered an important amendment to the Bill, which he has just referred to, on disability access. That was in response to an amendment in the names of my noble friend Lady Brinton, the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, and the noble Lords, Lord Blunkett and Lord Holmes. These new legal obligations will have significant implications for train operators and the rail network generally, and we are very grateful for that commitment, which will make a real difference to the lives of people with disabilities.

From these Benches, we have made it clear that we would not have adopted the same approach as the Government. We would not have divided the issue of ownership from the details of how the system will be organised and how the parts will fit together. The Secretary of State stated on Monday, absolutely correctly, that nationalisation is no silver bullet. In essence, most of the amendments that were put forward, both from our Benches and from the Conservative Benches, simply sought more information on how it would work and where the powers would lie.

As Liberal Democrats, beyond our concern about disabled access, we wanted assurances that passengers would be at the heart of the reforms and that devolution would not just be tolerated but be allowed to grow. We appreciate that the Minister did his best to reassure us on those issues; in particular, he moved some way on devolution. We therefore look forward with enthusiasm to the big Bill, when we can promise him very thorough scrutiny.

I remain sceptical that the Government have the answers to everything; for instance, whether they will genuinely be able to accept private sector operators under a public/private partnership scheme within devolution. I also have reservations about the cost to passengers of the harmonisation of terms and conditions for staff. But I always accept that the Minister understands his brief comprehensively and is absolutely in good faith in his assurances.

We send this Bill back to the other place with the amendments that were passed against the wishes of the Government and are strongly aware of the Government’s majority in the other place. We are realistic about what will happen, but I say to the Government that it would do their cause no harm to accept the good intentions of the first amendment that passed here, which simply stated that it is the duty of the Secretary of State to improve passenger standards. That is, or should be, a statement of the obvious. I hope they might consider bringing forward an amendment of their own on that.

Finally, I thank my colleagues on these Benches for their support and contributions: the noble Baronesses, Lady Brinton, Lady Pidgeon and Lady Scott, and the noble Lords, Lord Bradshaw and Lord Teverson. Finally, I must thank Elizabeth Plummer, our legislative adviser, who was responsible—as always—for excellent advice and for amendments from these Benches.

Carbon Emissions: Bus Fleets

Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill Excerpts

Tuesday 12th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Pidgeon]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what investment they are planning to reduce carbon emissions from bus fleets.

[The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill) (Lab)]

The full transition to zero-emission buses is a vital part of the Government’s plan to make buses better for passengers and to realise the benefits of lower running costs, cleaner air and smoother, quieter journeys. The department’s spending envelope for the financial year 2025-26 was announced at the Budget. Careful consideration is being given to how to maximise the benefits of zero-emission buses funding against our departmental objectives.

[Baroness Pidgeon (LD)]

My Lords, many large bus companies have invested significant capital in new electric and hydrogen buses alongside government zero-emission bus funding, but there are currently no dedicated government funding streams post 2025. When can we expect a new detailed funding round to help transform bus fleets across the country?

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

The noble Baroness will know that bus operations across England are generally managed by operators, and they ensure that depots are configured to accommodate their fleet. It is they who must apply to distribution network operators for grid connections. The Department for Energy Security and Net Zero announced that the newly formed National Energy System Operator has been asked to produce the first strategic spatial plan for energy, and it is also looking at reforming the connection process. Both those actions will help bus operators—it is their investment in their depots that enables electric buses to run.

[Lord Kirkhope of Harrogate (Con)]

Will the Minister join me in congratulating the Harrogate Bus Company, which is electrifying its fleet at the moment? It is not only electrifying its buses but bringing in innovative arrangements for charging en route—a very noble effort.

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

I agree with the noble Lord that actions such as those taken in Harrogate to electrify bus fleets have real benefits. The innovative technology example, which allows charging in the course of a journey, is also to be lauded.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree with me, and with Green Party policy, that improving our bus services is a crucial part of fighting climate change? It enables people to get out of their cars, and many people do not want to carry on driving as they get older.

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

I do not think that is just Green Party policy, but I agree with the noble Baroness that that principle of encouraging public transport and bus use is absolutely what we need.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My Lords, as the number of electric buses purchased by operators increases, the cost of producing those buses is falling. When does the Department for Transport expect the total cost of ownership of an electric bus, including its reduced operation costs, to be the same as that of a traditional vehicle?

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

The noble Baroness raises a good point. The whole purpose of encouraging the production of electric buses is to ensure that the market develops and the costs fall. I do not currently have an estimate of whether the cost of those vehicles will ever equal the cost of traditional diesel buses, but I can say that it is absolutely the right move, and the support given by successive zero-emission bus schemes is contributing to the manufacturing industry keeping abreast of technology and to the general reduction in cost. I will see whether we can find any figures; if we can, I shall write to the noble Baroness with them.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, in 2021, the previous Government consulted on ending the sale of diesel buses, but never made a decision. Will the new Government provide clarity over the date for the end of the sale of diesel buses to provide confidence for the bus industry and franchising authorities and certainty for the supply chain?

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[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

My understanding is that, progressively, the production of zero-emission buses has resulted in vehicles that have more capability of working a full day. The experiment in Harrogate referred to earlier, which is about charging vehicles during the day, is one way of ensuring that the bus industry will have the opportunity in due course of replacing all diesel buses with electric buses. I cannot currently answer the question about when that will be, but I know that that experiment is one of a number of things that need to happen in order that vehicles can be purchased with confidence to do all the jobs that buses do in England, Wales and Scotland.

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

My Lords, I applaud the Minister for retrofitting one of his Routemasters with a more environmentally friendly engine. Given that, is he aware of any schemes to encourage bus companies to retrofit their existing stock of buses rather than scrapping them and having to buy new ones, given the environmental life cycle costs?

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

The noble Lord refers to a vehicle built in 1962 that has Euro 6 emission standards. I have not yet quite got to the stage of fitting one of those vehicles with batteries, but you never know. The serious point here is that these vehicles last an average of 15 years, so taking steps for most or all new vehicles in the fleet to be zero emission is obviously the way of converting the entire fleet within a reasonable time.

[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (CB)]

My Lords, as the diesel bus fleet gets older, the risk of leakage from the exhaust into the cabins of those buses goes up. Are the Government giving any guidance to bus companies that have old buses on carbon monoxide monitoring to protect their drivers and passengers from low-level carbon monoxide exposure, given the evidence of harm from that over time?

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

The Driver and Vehicle Standards Agency inspects annually and on a random basis all types of bus and coach to make sure they comply with the correct standards. One of those standards is no leakage from the exhaust. I will take away the point that the noble Baroness raises about carbon monoxide monitoring to check that it is being considered across the country and write to her on it.

[Lord Moylan (Con)]

My Lords, on hydrogen-powered buses, when TfL put the hydrogen fuelling infrastructure into a single depot to run hydrogen buses in London, it turned out to be a very expensive undertaking. The Government have offered no estimate of what it will cost to achieve such a conversion, particularly in relation to hydrogen. Does the Minister ever reflect that persons on modest incomes might have preferred this money to have been spent on maintaining the bus fare cap at £2 rather than increasing it by 50%?

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

The noble Lord is as knowledgeable about the original hydrogen fuel cell installation in London as I am, because it was under my control that it was put in. Of course, the truth is that an installation for three vehicles out of a fleet of 8,000 would proportionately be enormously expensive, but it was there for a reason: to experiment with hydrogen fuel cells. The result has been generational change in fuel cells for vehicles. The Government believe that, in appropriate circumstances, hydrogen is one way of getting zero emissions. We do not get technical progress without experimentation; we expect the cost to decline. That, together with electricity, will be the way of producing zero-emission buses and bus fares at reasonable prices.

Shadow Great British Railways: Chair Appointment

Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill Excerpts

Tuesday 12th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Moylan]

To ask His Majesty’s Government whether the appointment of a chair of Shadow Great British Railways was subject to a competitive process.

[The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill) (Lab)]

My Lords, passengers and the taxpayer cannot afford to wait until we have established Great British Railways. Therefore, we have taken the immediate steps of establishing shadow Great British Railways and appointing Laura Shoaf, by a direct ministerial appointment in accordance with Cabinet Office guidance, as its chair. She brings immense hands-on experience of delivering change and a shared desire to move fast to fix things. The future chair of Great British Railways will be appointed through open competition in due course.

[Lord Moylan (Con)]

My Lords, this Question is not about any individual. Will the Minister say how many businesses of the scale of Great British Railways would appoint a chairman without any sort of competition or any opportunity for other people to put themselves forward? Is this a reasonable thing to do?

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

Yes, it is a reasonable thing to do. This is not the chair of Great British Railways, which will be established after the substantive railway Bill in due course; this is an arrangement to bring some benefits to the railway to counter the now 31 years of fragmentation and balkanisation, and, in particular, to bring together the three parts of the already publicly owned railway: the rail services division of the Department for Transport, Network Rail and directly operated holdings. It is a very reasonable thing to do and it will deliver results.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, Laura Shoaf has been chief executive of West Midlands Combined Authority, and we on these Benches are pleased that she brings deep experience of devolution, which we hold dear as one of the solutions for the future of our railways. Passengers are impatient to see signs of improvement, so can the Minister assure us that the promise to establish a passenger standards authority will be kept? Will the Government also consider establishing that in shadow form, so that it can get on with the job of improving standards for passengers as soon as possible?

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[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

I thank the noble Baroness for her endorsement of the qualifications of Laura Shoaf, who is indeed well acquainted with both the operation and development of urban transport systems and devolution. The passenger standards authority will be put together in the substantive railway Bill. In the meantime, there is Transport Focus, and we have had recent discussions in Committee about what can be done in the lead-up to the substantive Bill.

[Lord Bellingham (Con)]

My Lords, can the Minister find time to turn his attention to the HS2 timetable? In particular, can he tell the House now, in the light of the Budget announcements, when the major capital work at Euston station will be completed?

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

The Chancellor announced in the Autumn Budget that the tunnels from Old Oak Common to Euston will be built. It is, of course, necessary to have built the tunnels in order to develop the station. The Government are now turning their attention to how the station should be developed in a cost-effective manner and how it will be funded, and there will be more on that in due course.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, may I, as a regular rail user, say how grateful we are to the Government for sorting out the chaos of the last 30-plus years? The track, the rail infrastructure, the engines and the operators are all in separate companies, and it has been total chaos. Is it not about time that the man principally responsible, the noble Lord, Lord Young, gets up and apologises for the mess that he has provided us with over the last 30-plus years?

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

I should concentrate on my noble friend’s right description of the chaos of the last 30 years. The railway is not functioning properly; far too much of the time of everybody concerned with managing the railway is spent on blame attribution and contractual negotiation, and far too little is spent on delivering a decent service for passengers and freight and making the railway do what it should do for the economy. That is what the Government’s policy is designed to change.

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

My Lords, following the privatisation of the railways, in which I played a modest part, decades of decline in passenger traffic was reversed. Once the dead hand of the Treasury was removed from investment, there was fresh investment in new rolling stock and modernising the stations, passenger fares were pegged at RPI minus one—a policy reversed by the Government adorned by the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes—passenger safety improved, and we developed a market in train operating companies to replace the monopoly of British Rail. What was not to like about that?

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

Since Covid, the railway has got only four-fifths of its previous income. The train operating companies are now, in effect, flat contractors to government and their owners are unable to take much, if any, financial risk. The service to passengers is not as good as it should be, and the Government’s policy is designed to make that significant change.

[Lord Watts (Lab)]

My Lords, under the last Government, it was cheaper to fly to New York than it was to travel from Manchester to Euston by train. Will the Minister do something about the overpricing of trains to make them more competitive?

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

Fares on the railway are so complicated that even the people who sell them do not understand them. Some of them look absurdly expensive; some are very cheap. It is very possible to sit in a carriage where nearly everybody has paid a different fare for the same journey. The passengers wholeheartedly dislike it. One of the reasons for public ownership of the railways is to get commercial sense back into a sensible fares and ticketing system, which will attract passengers to the network.

[Lord McLoughlin (Con)]

But, my Lords, does the Minister accept that, on some occasions, it is necessary for the Government to appoint people without a competitive process—as I did in the Minister’s case when I appointed him as the chairman of Network Rail? I expected him to be solely the success that he was and to bring a political neutrality, which we see today and which he carries well in his present role.

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

Of course, I congratulate the noble Lord on his previous appointment, which seemed to last nine years, so you might judge it successful. I think that the present appointment will be equally successful—somebody with an excellent transport background who understands the politics and economics of large conurbations and will make a real difference, improving the railway in the short term before we get the substantive Bill in the longer term.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

My Lords, I have a vivid recollection of how inefficient British Rail was because, when I was at the Bar, I appeared against British Rail people on a regular basis. Can the Minister and his department check what British Rail got up to, and do something completely different?

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

The British Railways Board was abolished in 1993. The way in which the railway needs to work in future has to reflect the significant devolution in the country since then. It is our intention that the railway is run by people who are in control of a significant part of it—what I would describe as the Network Rail route, and a train company —including the track, the trains and the staff, and that they deliver a decent service. That is the intention in future.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, may I appeal to the softer, gentler, more apolitical side of the Minister? Does he accept that it would be churlish not to congratulate the previous Government on paying £9 billion during Covid to keep all the trains running? Not one railway worker lost their job.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

I think everybody on the railway was extremely grateful for the support the Government showed for the railway service at that time. Nevertheless, the consequences of Covid have been that the cost of the railway is almost the same but its revenue is four-fifths of what it was. One of the objectives now is to deliver better value and a better service, and the method of management I have described will achieve that.

Transport Infrastructure: North of England

Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill Excerpts

Tuesday 12th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[The Lord Bishop of Sheffield]

To ask His Majesty’s Government, following the announcement that Doncaster Sheffield Airport may reopen in 2026, what steps they are taking to support transport infrastructure across cities in the north of England.

[The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill) (Lab)]

We are absolutely committed to improving transport infrastructure across the north of England. The Chancellor announced in the Autumn Statement on 30 October a range of funding to support transport, including funding for the development of the West Yorkshire mass transit, renewal of the Supertram in Sheffield and the trans-Pennine route upgrade. This includes an uplift to national city region sustainable transport settlement funding in 2025-26 of £200 million for mayoral combined authorities.

[The Lord Bishop of Sheffield]

I thank the Minister for that Answer. I applaud the progress that City of Doncaster Council and the South Yorkshire Mayoral Combined Authority have made to reopen Doncaster Sheffield Airport after its closure in 2022 and I was encouraged by the Chancellor’s reference to Sheffield’s excellent Supertram in her recent Budget Statement, but what steps will the Government take to promote the fuller, greener integration of regional aviation, tram, bus and rail networks?

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

Primarily, that sort of integration at a mayoral combined authority level is the job of the mayoral combined authority. The Government supporting those mayoral combined authorities to have the right transport plans, which include integration across the various modes, is absolutely the right thing to do. That is the reason for the funding and the uplift in the funding.

[Lord Blunkett (Lab)]

My Lords, I support the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Sheffield in his Question. I ask the Department for Transport to give every support to ensure that the city region, which is the only metropolitan urban area in the country not to have an airport, has the benefits of the productivity and growth that flow from it. Perhaps the Minister could also encourage the developers not to call it “Robin Hood Airport”, which it was previously, on the grounds that when people got off, the arrows that they saw seemed to lead them to the Friar Tuck cafeteria and the Maid Marian facilities.

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

I am amazed to think that the name of a cafeteria in a regional airport might be something to do with the department. More seriously, the South Yorkshire Mayoral Combined Authority Board, which is chaired by the mayor, will make a decision later this month on providing City of Doncaster Council with £3 million as part of Doncaster’s existing £138 million gain share from the South Yorkshire Mayoral Combined Authority allocation. That is the Government supporting the reinstatement of this airport. We will do everything possible to help the airport get back into business and contribute to the economic growth of the region.

[Lord Scriven (LD)]

My Lords, TransPennine Express is owned by the Government, and Network Rail is owned by the Government. After three years, businesses and individuals are fed up with excuses and meaningless explanations, so when will the direct train service between Sheffield and its major international airport, Manchester, be reinstated?

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

The direct service was curtailed as part of a very complex and necessary scheme to restore railway reliability in Manchester. The department and I know that there is huge aspiration for a direct connection between Sheffield and Manchester Airport, but the configuration of the railway in Manchester means it is very difficult to deliver it. One of the reasons for the region being keen on Doncaster Airport is to see flights from the region without necessarily going to Manchester.

[Baroness Lane-Fox of Soho (CB)]

My Lords, as president of the British Chambers of Commerce, I have spent many happy days in Doncaster and can attest to how delighted local businesses are at the reopening of the airport. How are the Government thinking of addressing the very substantial digital infrastructure gaps across the north of England? Cumbria and Northumberland face some of the most terrifying black not-spots, which is something we hear from businesses increasingly. If we are to grow the economy, we need to grow the digital infrastructure as well.

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

I have no doubt that digital infrastructure across the whole of England is very necessary. I do not have any information on that to hand, but I will write to the noble Baroness with as much information as I can muster about it.

[Lord Moylan (Con)]

My Lords, everyone acknowledges that regional airports throughout the country are struggling. How do the Government think that putting up air passenger duty is going to help them?

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[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

Air passenger duty has not changed for a considerable length of time, and my recollection is that the increase is no more than inflation would have been. In the total cost of air fares, it is a relatively small amount.

[Baroness Winterton of Doncaster (Lab)]

My Lords, following the excellent questions from the right reverend Prelate and my noble friend Lord Blunkett, will the Minister join me in congratulating Mayor Ros Jones on the part that she has played in the reopening of the airport? Will he support her request to the department and the Civil Aviation Authority to allow the necessary airspace once an operator for Doncaster Sheffield Airport is announced?

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

I will of course join in the congratulations to the mayor, Ros Jones. The reopening of the airport is clearly important, locally and regionally. I am able to say that the department will support, as much as it can, the reinstatement of the airspace and the air traffic control needed to make the airport operational.

[Lord Beith (LD)]

My Lords, why do the Government not recognise that the links between the cities of Newcastle upon Tyne and Edinburgh require an upgraded and safe A1, and that effective rail transport to northern cities from Newcastle depends on investment in the capacity of the east coast main line?

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

When the Government were elected, they were faced with an unachievable list of infrastructure promises from the previous Government. Various schemes have not been able to be taken forward simply because there is not the money to achieve them—of which the A1 is one.

The east coast main line has had a considerable amount of investment. The struggle recently, because of the fragmentation of the railway, has been to achieve a railway timetable to take advantage of the £4 billion that has been spent on it. I hope that we have got there, but of course that is one of the reasons for rail reform: we should not be investing £4 billion in a railway only to find that we cannot construct a timetable to take advantage of the investment.

[Lord Trefgarne (Con)]

My Lords, is not the runway at Sheffield Airport rather short and suitable for only the smallest aeroplanes?

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

I am afraid I do not have information about the length of the runway. I am sure that the proposition to reopen the airport takes into account its existing configuration, and I am sure that the public bodies concerned with it are confident that the airport, whatever length of runway it has, can support the local economy with the appropriate air services.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, Manchester Airport is planning for an expansion of 150% in passenger numbers. Stansted wants to increase from 28 million passengers to 43 million. Leeds Bradford Airport has been looking for a 75% increase in passenger numbers. Yet, in July, the Committee on Climate Change told the Government that they must:

“Stop airport expansion without a UK-wide capacity-management framework”.


Is this not just more public money going into what have to be white elephants in terms of both demand and, crucially, our need to cut our climate emissions, particularly in terms of the promise that Sir Keir Starmer just made at COP 29?

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

In relation to regional airports, there is a pressing demand from business to improve economic growth in those cities and regions by better and more convenient connectivity. The extent to which that means more flights is a separate question, but the support given to an airport such as Doncaster in order to make business better and create economic growth in that region is entirely consistent with the Government’s objectives.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, I see that plans for a third runway at Heathrow have come to the surface again. Does the Minister accept that allowing that plan to develop and to catch the headlines again will inevitably undermine the viability and investment opportunities for airports in the north of England in general?

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

My understanding of the recent suggestions about growth at Heathrow is that they are currently focused not on a third runway but on an expansion of the airport in order to cope with more passengers on the existing runways. There is a debate about the extent to which flights from Heathrow compete with regional airports, but Heathrow is of course an international hub, so many of the flights that it might aspire to handle will never go to regional airports. There are criteria that will have to be fulfilled for an expansion of Heathrow, but we do not necessarily see that that will compete with the regional airports such as Doncaster that we have been discussing today.

Newly Qualified Young Drivers

Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill Excerpts

Monday 11th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Colgrain (Con)]

My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Lady Seccombe, and with her permission, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in her name on the Order Paper.

[The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill) (Lab)]

This Government take road safety very seriously, and reducing the number of those killed and injured on our roads is a key priority. The department is currently considering policy options in this area, and my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Transport is meeting with campaigners this week. While we are not considering graduated driving licences, we absolutely recognise that young people are disproportionately victims of tragic incidents on our roads, and we are considering other measures to tackle this problem and to protect young drivers.

[Lord Colgrain (Con)]

When a young person passes their driving test, it is an occasion for pride and congratulation; it is seldom mentioned that they have been put in charge of a lethal weapon. Any subsequent accident that brings about their death or the death of their friends causes excruciating pain to their families and survivors, and it begs many questions. Does the Minister agree with me, therefore, that we should do more to mitigate these terrible circumstances? Does he support the suggestion that, for six months after a driving test is passed, the driver should be allowed only one passenger, located in the front seat? Does he agree that, before a test is taken, the learner driver should be made to watch the film produced by county fire and rescue services, which narrates in graphic detail the role played by fire, police and ambulance services when a fatal accident occurs?

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

Every death on our roads is a tragedy, and our thoughts remain with the families of everyone who has lost a loved one in this way. As I have said, the Secretary of State is meeting this week with some campaigners who, tragically, are in that position. There is a form of restricting novice drivers through the Road Traffic (New Drivers) Act 1995. On acquiring their first full licence, a new driver is on probation for two years. During that time, they are subject to a more rigorous limit of penalty points, and if they breach that they will lose their full licence. I have not seen the film that the noble Lord refers to but will certainly give that some thought.

[Lord Swire (Con)]

Granted, the priority must be to deal with the backlog of young people taking their driving test, in order to increase their productivity, but is it not also time to look again at the basic driving test, whereby a young person can pass and drive away from that test for the first time on either a motorway or in the dark?

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

The Government and their agency are working extremely hard to reduce the backlog of driving test appointments, but it is also quite clear that people should be ready for the test at the time that they present themselves to take it. The department’s THINK! campaign, which is a road safety campaign, is aimed primarily at young men aged 17 to 24. It focuses on a number of priority issues, all of which would help to reduce death and serious injury both to that category and to other road users.

[Baroness Pidgeon (LD)]

My Lords, given the significant increase in low-powered motorcycles and scooters being ridden on L-plates for food deliveries, what plans do the Government have to strengthen the compulsory basic training for motorcyclists to improve road safety?

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[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

The Government are, of course, completely committed to ensuring that motorcyclists are equipped with the specialist skills necessary to stay safe on the road. I will write to the noble Baroness with further details of what might be proposed in the future to improve the competence of motorcycle drivers.

[Lord Dubs (Lab)]

My Lords, is the Minister sympathetic to the argument that there are quite a number of older drivers who are driving beyond the point when they are fit to be safe on the roads—

[Lord Dubs (Lab)]

Nobody here.

Could that be dealt with? Granted, there is a difficulty in having enough driving tests at the moment, but would it not be a good aim for people, say, over the age of 75 to do a driving test again every couple of years?

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

I thank my noble friend. I am afraid I am already one of those people who is subject to the more rigorous requirements; as a vocational licence holder over the age of 70, I have to have a medical every year. The current driving licence arrangements take into account the risks that an individual poses to road safety. They are designed to be fair and proportionate to all drivers who remain fit and competent to drive, regardless of age.

[Lord McLoughlin (Con)]

Will the Government, while acknowledging that there may be a case for a graduated driving licence, also look at the issues which cause most of the accidents on our roads and perhaps look again at the penalties that are there for using the phone while driving?

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

I thank the noble Lord for that thought, and of course he has great experience in this matter. The Government are very conscious of the principal reasons for fatalities and serious injuries, and I will certainly take away the thought that we should look further at driving while using a mobile phone, but the existing penalties for this and their enforcement are very stringent.

[Lord Vaux of Harrowden (CB)]

My Lords, on the subject of driving test dates, what steps will the Government take to prevent the exploitation of learner drivers who are unable to get a date through the conventional route and have to use these dodgy websites that buy dates in bulk and then sell them off at a massively inflated price?

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

The Government would completely agree that it is quite wrong that people should need to use what were referred to as “dodgy websites”—which is obviously a technical term. The Driver & Vehicle Standards Agency has closed down several hundred of those websites by enforcing more strictly the rules by which people can obtain driving tests. The correct way to obtain a driving test is, first, for a learner driver to prepare so that the date that they select is a date when they can pass and, secondly, to do it through the DVSA website or through the helpline.

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)]

My Lords, I draw attention to my interests. One of the issues for young drivers is the enormous cost of insurance, and the insurance industry would like to help address that. Therefore, a probation period or maybe zero alcohol for the first five years or until a certain age might be a way to help insurance companies to produce better rates for young drivers, for whom a car can be essential for work. Would the Minister agree to look at a range of possibilities, so that we can keep young people on the road more safely?

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

Of course, we all agree that insurance is necessary and that its costs have been rising. Indeed, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Transport has instituted a review, with the aid of the industry, about the cost of insurance. There are a number of ideas to help young drivers obtain insurance, some of which need great thought to make sure that they are enforceable. The primary way that they can get insurance and remain safe is to practise for the test properly, to take the test, to be successful and then to drive with the same safety that we want of everybody on the roads.

[Lord Moylan (Con)]

My Lords, I return to the question asked by the noble Baroness, Lady Pidgeon. The Minister replied as if she had asked a question about motorcycles but, unless I misunderstood, she asked as much about electrically powered bicycles used for deliveries as about motorcycles. Does the Minister agree that the licensing system has now become completely incoherent? In some cases, electrically powered bicycles are more powerful than smaller motorcycles, yet the driver of one requires a licence and the driver of the other does not. Will the Minister agree to a wholesale review of the system, as it is breaking down?

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

I would say that the driving licence system is not breaking down. We are seeing new cycles, some of which are not in fact cycles. If they are adapted to do more than 15.5 miles an hour, they are not cycles and should be subject to the licensing regulations for motor vehicles and motorcycles. That definition is clear. However, a number of users are adapting these bicycles illegally, turning them into vehicles but not subjecting themselves to proper licensing. It will have to be for the enforcement authorities to find and catch those people, as some of them have done.