Baroness Pidgeon
To ask His Majesty’s Government what investment they are planning to reduce carbon emissions from bus fleets.
The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill) (Lab)
The full transition to zero-emission buses is a vital part of the Government’s plan to make buses better for passengers and to realise the benefits of lower running costs, cleaner air and smoother, quieter journeys. The department’s spending envelope for the financial year 2025-26 was announced at the Budget. Careful consideration is being given to how to maximise the benefits of zero-emission buses funding against our departmental objectives.
Baroness Pidgeon (LD)
My Lords, many large bus companies have invested significant capital in new electric and hydrogen buses alongside government zero-emission bus funding, but there are currently no dedicated government funding streams post 2025. When can we expect a new detailed funding round to help transform bus fleets across the country?
Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)
The noble Baroness will know that bus operations across England are generally managed by operators, and they ensure that depots are configured to accommodate their fleet. It is they who must apply to distribution network operators for grid connections. The Department for Energy Security and Net Zero announced that the newly formed National Energy System Operator has been asked to produce the first strategic spatial plan for energy, and it is also looking at reforming the connection process. Both those actions will help bus operators—it is their investment in their depots that enables electric buses to run.
Lord Kirkhope of Harrogate (Con)
Will the Minister join me in congratulating the Harrogate Bus Company, which is electrifying its fleet at the moment? It is not only electrifying its buses but bringing in innovative arrangements for charging en route—a very noble effort.
Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)
I agree with the noble Lord that actions such as those taken in Harrogate to electrify bus fleets have real benefits. The innovative technology example, which allows charging in the course of a journey, is also to be lauded.
Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)
My Lords, does the Minister agree with me, and with Green Party policy, that improving our bus services is a crucial part of fighting climate change? It enables people to get out of their cars, and many people do not want to carry on driving as they get older.
Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)
I do not think that is just Green Party policy, but I agree with the noble Baroness that that principle of encouraging public transport and bus use is absolutely what we need.
Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)
My Lords, as the number of electric buses purchased by operators increases, the cost of producing those buses is falling. When does the Department for Transport expect the total cost of ownership of an electric bus, including its reduced operation costs, to be the same as that of a traditional vehicle?
Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)
The noble Baroness raises a good point. The whole purpose of encouraging the production of electric buses is to ensure that the market develops and the costs fall. I do not currently have an estimate of whether the cost of those vehicles will ever equal the cost of traditional diesel buses, but I can say that it is absolutely the right move, and the support given by successive zero-emission bus schemes is contributing to the manufacturing industry keeping abreast of technology and to the general reduction in cost. I will see whether we can find any figures; if we can, I shall write to the noble Baroness with them.
Baroness Randerson (LD)
My Lords, in 2021, the previous Government consulted on ending the sale of diesel buses, but never made a decision. Will the new Government provide clarity over the date for the end of the sale of diesel buses to provide confidence for the bus industry and franchising authorities and certainty for the supply chain?
Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)
My understanding is that, progressively, the production of zero-emission buses has resulted in vehicles that have more capability of working a full day. The experiment in Harrogate referred to earlier, which is about charging vehicles during the day, is one way of ensuring that the bus industry will have the opportunity in due course of replacing all diesel buses with electric buses. I cannot currently answer the question about when that will be, but I know that that experiment is one of a number of things that need to happen in order that vehicles can be purchased with confidence to do all the jobs that buses do in England, Wales and Scotland.
Lord Kamall (Con)
My Lords, I applaud the Minister for retrofitting one of his Routemasters with a more environmentally friendly engine. Given that, is he aware of any schemes to encourage bus companies to retrofit their existing stock of buses rather than scrapping them and having to buy new ones, given the environmental life cycle costs?
Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)
The noble Lord refers to a vehicle built in 1962 that has Euro 6 emission standards. I have not yet quite got to the stage of fitting one of those vehicles with batteries, but you never know. The serious point here is that these vehicles last an average of 15 years, so taking steps for most or all new vehicles in the fleet to be zero emission is obviously the way of converting the entire fleet within a reasonable time.
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (CB)
My Lords, as the diesel bus fleet gets older, the risk of leakage from the exhaust into the cabins of those buses goes up. Are the Government giving any guidance to bus companies that have old buses on carbon monoxide monitoring to protect their drivers and passengers from low-level carbon monoxide exposure, given the evidence of harm from that over time?
Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)
The Driver and Vehicle Standards Agency inspects annually and on a random basis all types of bus and coach to make sure they comply with the correct standards. One of those standards is no leakage from the exhaust. I will take away the point that the noble Baroness raises about carbon monoxide monitoring to check that it is being considered across the country and write to her on it.
Lord Moylan (Con)
My Lords, on hydrogen-powered buses, when TfL put the hydrogen fuelling infrastructure into a single depot to run hydrogen buses in London, it turned out to be a very expensive undertaking. The Government have offered no estimate of what it will cost to achieve such a conversion, particularly in relation to hydrogen. Does the Minister ever reflect that persons on modest incomes might have preferred this money to have been spent on maintaining the bus fare cap at £2 rather than increasing it by 50%?
Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)
The noble Lord is as knowledgeable about the original hydrogen fuel cell installation in London as I am, because it was under my control that it was put in. Of course, the truth is that an installation for three vehicles out of a fleet of 8,000 would proportionately be enormously expensive, but it was there for a reason: to experiment with hydrogen fuel cells. The result has been generational change in fuel cells for vehicles. The Government believe that, in appropriate circumstances, hydrogen is one way of getting zero emissions. We do not get technical progress without experimentation; we expect the cost to decline. That, together with electricity, will be the way of producing zero-emission buses and bus fares at reasonable prices.