(1 month ago)
Lords ChamberRead Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Moylan (Con)
My Lords, when a Secretary of State comes to the House of Commons to make a Statement, I have always imagined it to be a rather portentous matter; something serious must be afoot. I note that the Minister has not exercised his right to read this Statement to the House and I can understand why, because it is almost completely vacuous. There is nothing in it at all, really. They must be having a very quiet time in the House of Commons if they want to sit and listen to this.
We learn of a few modest but welcome improvements. We learn that there are going to be new signboards at Euston. We know that people will have their tickets accepted across publicly owned train operating companies in the event of disruption. We are even told that there are “green shoots emerging” at LNER—I thought that that phrase had rather been cast into history, but possibly it is better than “leaves on the line”. But the performance improvements that the Secretary of State claims credit for in the Statement are not all what they seem.
Cancellations on CrossCountry have been reduced but the Secretary of State does not reveal—or she does slightly reveal if you read it carefully—that this has been achieved largely by reducing the number of time- tabled trains. Cancellations have also improved on TransPennine Express, we learn in the Statement, but she does not mention that, according to the Office of Rail and Road, delays have increased. The passenger-in-chief, as she wishes to be known, claims great progress as a result of her “getting around the table with unions”. Those of us who remember her first encounter with the unions recall that she barely stayed long enough, I imagine, even to sit at the table before she conceded all their demands.
This is not serious stuff from the Government about the railways. The serious stuff was put very squarely by the Minister earlier this week, and it is that the railways cost as much as they did before Covid but they have only 80% of the revenues. That is the problem, that is how he summarised it, and that is what the Secretary of State should be coming to the Commons to talk about, not green shoots at LNER and possible improvements in cancellations on TransPennine Express. She said, as the Minister himself said earlier this week, that there is to be a consultation on the Government’s plans. He said he hoped it would be published before Christmas. She says it will be soon. We look forward to it. We will be judging it according to the standard of whether or not it addresses the problem. The railways do not have enough revenue. We want to know what the Government are doing about it. Statements such as this are merely faffing around.
Baroness Randerson (LD)
My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, that this is a real time filler of a Statement, and I will not waste the time of this House by repeating some of the points he has just made that I had picked up on. Instead, I will ask the Minister some questions that flow from the rather superficial things in the Statement.
The Statement refers to ticket simplification but that is obviously still a long way off and what is being offered is a very modest measure. What passengers want to see is some kind of outward sign that the Government are taking seriously the fact that they are getting a very poor service at a very high price.
Fares went up by 5% this year and are scheduled to go up by a similar amount in March. I urge the Government to look at that again. Indeed, I challenge them to look at it again and to freeze fares in March at the current levels in recognition of the fact that rail services are not good enough to justify fare increases.
The Statement includes an update on LNER and refers to improvements in driver availability on the line. Unfortunately, that is not a general picture. Both Great Western Railway and Northern Trains regularly cite non-availability of drivers and train crew as a reason for cancellation. Can the Minister tell us what the Government are doing, across all train operators, to deal with failures of recruitment and training? That is clearly what must be happening at the moment. I fear this situation could get worse as train operators come towards the end of their franchises. I am interested in the Government’s strategy to stop this system, which is bad and getting worse.
Finally, the Statement references an improvement in industrial relations, but the Government face a big challenge as the nationalised train operator moves to one harmonised set of terms and conditions. What are the Government intending to do to ensure that the inevitable levelling up of terms and conditions properly modernises the industry and does so at a cost that taxpayers and passengers can afford, and when will they do it?
The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill) (Lab)
I thank the noble Lord and the noble Baroness for their comments. I start by saying that I could not disagree more with either of their descriptions of the Secretary of State’s Statement in the other place. All my experience as a public transport operator is that people really care about the service that they are offered on a daily basis, and I think that we should welcome the Secretary of State making a Statement about things that are happening on the railway for the service of passengers. It is really very welcome. It is very important that it is recognised as a Statement by the Secretary of State for passengers, about what is going on.
I disagree with the suggestion from the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, that these things are trivial. It is absurd, frankly, that on many journeys in northern England which are served by two companies—both owned by the Government—tickets are valid only on one of them and passengers might get fined for getting on the wrong-coloured train. Ticket acceptance, both in normal times and when services are disrupted, ought to be completely obvious, but the railway does not allow it, not even when the companies have the same owner—it is just extraordinary.
The noble Lord referred to CrossCountry cancellations being reduced. The reason they and the timetable are reduced—much to my irritation and that of the Secretary of State—was that the company which ran it suddenly found that it did not have enough drivers available. It appeared to be extraordinarily sudden, and I will come back to that in due course. The noble Lord mentioned delay minutes on TPE, but sadly his counterpart in the other place had not looked in a sufficiently granular manner at the statistics. In the last 12 months, as well as cancellations going down on TPE, delays have reduced; the statistics that were quoted were four-year statistics. I do agree with the noble Lord that it is more than this, and that is why we have said consistently—and I have been able to say consistently in discussing the Bill on which we have just had Third Reading—that there will be a much bigger Bill. But it is really important that things happen now, because people are travelling on the railway every day and they care about the service they are offered. They are offended by the stupidity of some of the existing rules which are the result of the balkanisation of the railways, and we should fix them.
Of course, the major ticket simplification that the noble Baroness referred to is a long way off, but it is one of the purposes of the Bill that has just had its Third Reading. Until we can control the fares structure and the information about fares and ticketing, it will not be possible to reform the fares system in the way that people want. The noble Lord, Lord McLoughlin, has reminded me several times of his ambition to do that in his time as Secretary of State for Transport and his frustration from not being able to do it. The fact is that we will not be able to do it until we have got hold of information that is currently commercially confidential, even though it is on a risk that has been taken wholly by the public sector since Covid.
The driver availability issues are legion, so it is worth talking about them briefly. LNER has improved because we have solved the industrial dispute. Drivers are now working rest days and cancellations are now virtually zero. However, there are cancellations on other train companies, which are caused by a railway-wide shortage of drivers—a shortage of people and a shortage of the knowledge to drive all the routes and knowledge of the tracks on which they drive. It seems astonishing, but we have had to commission work to find out how many drivers the railway is short of, because no previous Government collected that information in order to deal with it.
The Government are doing a huge amount. In the business plans of all the train operators next year, one of the inputs that I want to see is how many drivers are being trained and the availability of those drivers. I can tell your Lordships that, over my nearly 50-year career in public transport, the first thing you want to understand is how many staff you have, what they do and where they are. The fact that we cannot account for that over the railway as a whole demonstrates that we do not have workforce planning in anything like the way that we would want.
The noble Baroness made some assumptions about the future of terms and conditions on the railway. In Committee and in other discussions on the Bill, we have not made our minds up yet about what to do. However, she is right that we need a modernisation of those conditions. I used to feel uncomfortable with the pay and conditions of Tube drivers when I ran Transport for London, but it took me some time to realise that at least they were rostered for seven-day weeks. Most of the railway asks people to cover work on Sundays on a voluntary basis, which is, if not Edwardian, Victorian. Nobody sought to change it, but we must change it, because it is unacceptable both to ask the staff to give up their work rest days and to ask the passengers to tolerate a service where people are not rostered to cover what is in the timetable.
My response to both the noble Lord and the noble Baroness is that these things are important. I welcome the Secretary of State making the Statement in the other place, because people want to know not only that we have a great plan to reform the railway but that we are doing something about it now. She said what we were doing and some of it is good news.
Baroness Deech (CB)
My Lords, I have twice invited the Minister to come to see the shambles and chaos in Oxford caused by Network Rail, but he has not so far taken up my invitation. Patients and doctors who need to get to hospital have not been able to get through the blockage caused by Network Rail for nearly two years, with no end in sight. The project has failed; it is bogged down in mud and a lack of resources. All the residents of west Oxford are blocked from accessing the station unless they can afford a £50 taxi fare around the ring road. I have appealed to the Minister and the Secretary of State to do something about it, but I hereby repeat my invitation: come and see the businesses that have closed, the people who are limping towards the station and the children who cannot get to school. It is a real disaster—please see it and sort it out.
Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)
I absolutely understand the noble Baroness’s discontent and irritation with the situation in Oxford. What I have promised her, and indeed other important stakeholders, is that when we understand what the solution to this issue is, and that will be soon, I will come very willingly and will bring with me the chief executive of Network Rail, who is equally embarrassed—in fact, it is now his job rather than mine directly—and we will talk directly with everybody about the situation. It is very unfortunate and unsatisfactory. In the meantime, I have said to the noble Baroness and others who have written to me that, if they think that we can do any more to alleviate the position of the people in west Oxford, all she needs to do is to write to me and we will do everything we can.
Baroness Humphreys (LD)
My Lords, the new Avanti trains on the west coast north Wales line are very welcome, but access to those trains is sometimes difficult, with large gaps between the train and some platforms. Can any remedial action be taken to ensure the safety of passengers, especially those with limited mobility?
Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)
The noble Baroness raises a subject that I feel that I should know more about than I do. I know the general issue, and one of the benefits of a coherent, integrated railway ought to be that Great British Railways should be considering level boarding far more deeply than anybody on the railways has generally done. That criticism can be levelled at most parts of the British railway system, with some notable exceptions.
I will now go and look at the compatibility or incompatibility of the trains and the platforms in north Wales. You have to remember that the platforms were largely built in that case in the 1840s, and not much has happened to them since. However, I recognise that it is a huge problem and I recognise the access issue, which always or nearly always calls for ramps and people to deploy them. It is unsatisfactory. Sadly, the infrastructure lasts for a very long time indeed, and the trains last for a long time, and it is a subject on which Great British Railways will have to do better than the railway has done for the last 50 years.
Viscount Stansgate (Lab)
My Lords, I am not a current active user of Euston Station but, in the course of my lifetime, I know well enough what experience you can have at that station, and it has often been quite dismal. However, I am encouraged by the Statement, which refers to “a 100-day plan of rapid improvements”. Can my noble friend the Minister outline a little more what he hopes will be the situation that will make the business of using Euston a more pleasurable experience for passengers?
Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)
I thank my noble friend for that question. I was at Euston a week last Monday, hearing about the details of the plan. The station itself was very modern in 1968; it is no longer very modern. As a previous chair of Network Rail, I can tell your Lordships that if you look closely at the columns in the station, there are bands around the marble because it would fall off without them. The station is no longer in a fit condition. I would like to take some modest credit for having reincluded the concourse at Euston in the overall plan for the redevelopment of Euston and, now that the tunnels for HS2 will go there, I am very hopeful that all parts of the station will be fit for passenger usage in the future.
However, in the meantime, the most important parts of the 100-day plan are the following. The concourse is too small, so the logical thing to do on the concourse is to load the trains earlier, yet the position up until very recently was that neither of the train companies routinely managed to do that. However, they are now changing. So, a significant proportion of Avanti trains will be loaded at least 20 minutes before departure and, for the more local services on the London Northwestern trains, the platforms will be full of passengers even before the train has arrived. That will make a huge difference. There is a bookshop there currently that will not be there shortly, to create some space. I recall that we got criticism for removing Boots, but too many shops and not enough concourse space is the wrong answer. There will also be some further improvements to signage and visibility. When the last signage was done, it was hoped that it was the right job, but I am afraid it turned out not to be.
I hope that that is sufficient granular detail, but, if my noble friend would like to make himself available, either I or somebody else will show him around Euston Station, and I can get them to show him what is going to happen.
The Lord Bishop of Manchester
My Lords, I am grateful for what we have just heard. As somebody who frequently travels between Manchester and London Euston, I know that, at Manchester, I can often get on the train 20 minutes before it is due to leave and settle down, but at Euston it is a mad dash. It has still been like that, even in recent weeks. I want to focus on more local rail services. When I last spoke in this House on that subject, I asked the Minister whether there was any progress on allowing Greater Manchester—which now has control of the buses and the metro system—to take control of local rail as well. Integrating the transport system in a major city, as happens in London, is absolutely crucial. I can get to Manchester and then it takes me an hour to get home, out of the city, even though it is only two miles away. Is the Minister able to give us a progress report on that?
Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)
My previous statement about Euston could be added to only by saying that it would be very good if Avanti would like to run all the train services.
As far as the local rail services in Manchester go, I was with the Mayor of Greater Manchester last Thursday—six days ago—and there have been a lot of discussions between Transport for Greater Manchester and the department about a package of measures so that the mayor can replicate the success of his Bee Network for buses and the Metrolink with the railway service. Indeed, some of the discussion with the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, and her colleagues about the Bill that had its Third Reading earlier was about greater devolution. The mayor has an aspiration to have much more control over the local railway service, and I think we have a plan coming together to achieve that. The substantive railway Bill will give combined authority mayors a statutory role in that. In advance of that, we are making significant progress on fares, ticketing and service levels.
My final point is that the service, particularly with Northern, has been ravaged by driver shortages and industrial disputes. I referred earlier to an industrial dispute on Northern that has been going on for nine years and has not improved either the morale of the staff, customer service, or the reliability of the train service. We have resolved a dispute with Northern drivers and we are on the cusp of resolving a dispute with its conductors. That would be much to the benefit of all local rail travellers in Manchester and north-west England.
Lord Sterling of Plaistow (Con)
My Lords, I brought this up a few weeks ago. Apart from passengers—and the noble Lord knows more than anybody else on this subject—the main thing about the railway system is trade. I talked then about when I wanted to buy a trade line. At the time, P&O—or the Peninsular and Oriental Steam Navigation Company, if noble Lords really want its full name—controlled well over 25% of all transport in this country, and I wanted to buy a freight line. At that time, a huge number of trucks—thousands of them—were going up and down the main roads. We wanted to take all that freight on to the railway system. We controlled only about 3% of trade in continental Europe, but we wanted to take freight right the way through to Istanbul—2,500 miles and further. We are where we are today. The Minister knows much more about this than almost anybody else in this House, but there are thousands of vehicles going up and down the trunk lines. In practice, they could be taken off the roads, as is done in China and other great nations, particularly America, where the railway systems move all freight and heavy freight. At a time when we really want to make this much cleaner in this country, I suggest that that is something of great importance that should be considered.
Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)
The Government are committed to growing railway freight. I made a commitment during the passage of the Bill, the Third Reading of which we had today, that the Government would institute a growth target to increase freight traffic by rail in this country. The companies that do it are, for the most part, privately owned; they are commercial businesses and the terms on which they deal with the freight that they run are largely for them. However, the Government have some schemes to assist new freight flows and we will continue to look to do so in the future.
Lord Watts (Lab)
My Lords, I congratulate the Minister. After 13 or 14 years of a Government who seemed committed to keeping a dispute with the rail unions going for as long as they could and doing nothing to solve the problems of the railway, today we are hearing of all the problems that still exist, but they are historic. I am very pleased that the Minister is doing a root-and-branch attack on all the issues that need to be addressed if we are to have a modern railway system. Does he agree that we need to move as quickly as we can?
Lord Wigley (PC)
My Lords, further to the question asked by the noble Baroness, Lady Humphreys, on the condition of the platforms along the north Wales line, if the Government can find £100 million for bat runs relative to HS2, surely they can find a fraction of that money to help disabled people along the north Wales coast.
Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)
The provision in HS2 for bats is a whole other subject, but I sympathise with the drift of the noble Lord’s argument. We should be doing as much as we can to enable access to the railway system by everyone. The noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, who is in her place, knows that we have not been very good at it so far. I made a commitment to the House during the passage of the Bill of which we had the Third Reading today that we would do more. Level access, which I have already referred to, is an important subject. It is hard to crack but we should start, because if we do not start then we will never finish.
Lord Murphy of Torfaen (Lab)
Regarding HS2 and Old Oak Common, what is going to happen to services from Wales and the West Country over the next number of years with the effective semi-closure of Paddington station?
Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)
I thank my noble friend for that question. I met, I think, every Member of Parliament west of Bristol two days ago, and they all had the same question. The work at Old Oak Common for the HS2 station and the construction of an interchange station on the Great Western main line, which also serves the Elizabeth line, is a big undertaking. I agreed then, and say again now, that one of the questions is whether it needs to be so disruptive, and so disruptive now. To answer that I am going to meet all the parties involved in the next few days. It is a big job at Old Oak Common, but I understand the views of those who use the Great Western main line. I will attempt to answer those questions and see what can be done to alleviate the delay during building and its effects after construction.
Baroness Morris of Bolton (Con)
My Lords, can I take the Minister back to Manchester and the Northern line, which I use every week? Not only are the trains regularly cancelled but, when you are waiting at the station for the next train for either Blackpool North or Barrow, it regularly has only three of its six coaches. Can the Minister explain why that is?
Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)
I thank the noble Baroness for her question. I am not sure that I can explain that, but the too-frequent short formation of trains on the national railway system is wholly unsatisfactory. It is one of the things that the Government need to deal with. Part of it is a shortage of rolling stock, some of which is due to the complexity of the arrangements for their procurement, lease and operation. One of the reasons for the reform process, which I deeply care about, is that, in the end, somebody should be in charge of demonstrable parts of the railway system. They should have under their control the staff who operate the system, the rolling stock and the infrastructure, so that there is nowhere to go for an excuse.
Everybody on the railway blames everybody else; even in Network Rail, I found myself reading the morning’s performance and thinking, “Thank goodness that’s not my fault”. That is entirely the wrong way to think about it. When I ran Transport for London, as the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, knows, everything was my fault, and it was our job as the management to fix it. That is what we want out of a revised structure for the railway. I want to see somebody who says to themselves every morning as they get up, “That train service is mine. Why does it not run properly? How are we going to fix it so that yesterday’s problems do not occur tomorrow?” I am absolutely passionate about that, because I did it for nine and a half years at Transport for London; if you can do it in one of the world’s great cities, you can do it on defined parts of this railway network.