Water Services Regulation Authority (Prior Period Adjustments)

Lord Benyon Excerpts

Monday 14th February 2011 Written Statements

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon)]

Ofwat’s Prior Period Adjustments (PPA) following the Chief Secretary’s decision that departments will not be including PPA’s on the face on estimates for 2010-11 for the alteration of the IAS 35 standard and in respect of the removal of costs of capital charge from accounts, budgets and estimates are as follows:

Prior Period Adjustments

Non-Voted

Cost of capital charge

Costs of capital charges (CCC) have been removed from accounts, budgets and supply estimates in accordance with HM Treasury’s Consolidated Budgeting Guidance (CBG). However, the department had liabilities greater than its assets and so attracted a cost of capital credit. The removal of the CCC increases resources in DEL. The PPA in respect of the previous two years is shown in the table below.

Summary table

Flood Defence Allocations

Lord Benyon Excerpts

Wednesday 9th February 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mary Creagh (Wakefield) (Lab)]

(Urgent Question): To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if she will make a statement on the Government’s flood defence allocations for 2011-12.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon)]

The coalition Government are committed to protecting people and property from flooding and coastal erosion where it is sustainable and affordable to do so. Today, the Environment Agency is setting out detailed plans for proposed capital investment projects in the 2011-12 financial year. When completed, these schemes will provide better protection to over 112,000 homes in England. As already announced, a total of £521 million will be allocated by the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs to the Environment Agency next year for flood and coastal erosion risk management in England. That will be roughly half revenue funding and half capital investment. The capital funds will take forward 109 schemes which are already under construction, and in addition to these, a further 39 new flood and coastal defence projects will go ahead. Of these, 21 projects will provide better protection to 13,000 households at risk. The remainder relates to repairs and safety enhancements to existing defences.

The list of new schemes includes a £5.7 million project to protect 182 households in Keswick from flooding of the river Derwent. In total, over the next four years DEFRA intends to spend at least £2.1 billion and increase protection for at least 145,000 homes.

Inevitably, it has been necessary to find savings in all areas of Government expenditure, but we have protected flood and coastal erosion risk management as much as possible. The reduction is 8% compared with the previous four-year period. We have protected front-line services such as forecasting, warnings and incident response, and the maintenance of existing defences.

As I have said previously, no schemes will have been cancelled. All defences already under construction—the 109 projects I have mentioned— will be completed. It is the nature of flood and coastal defence investment that there are always more projects than national budgets can afford at any one time. Funding has always needed to be prioritised. Nevertheless, I understand the concerns of people and hon. Members who are worried that a particular scheme is not on the indicative list for funding. I should stress, however, that this does not amount to the Government cancelling schemes or saying any particular scheme cannot go ahead in the future. The method of Government funding for schemes starting in 2012-13 and beyond is currently under review. That follows recommendations made by Sir Michael Pitt after the widespread flooding of 2007. Transparency and greater local involvement are at the heart of the new proposals.

Whatever the amount of funding available, we cannot expect the national taxpayer to completely fund all the costs of each and every scheme; that has been a long-accepted understanding on both sides of the House. Difficult decisions must be made, and we must ensure that public investment delivers the most in terms of outcomes and benefits per pound spent.

Under the new proposals for funding flood and coastal erosion risk management, local ambitions in terms of protection no longer need be constrained by what national budgets can afford. We want to use every £1 wisely and make sure that as many people as possible have the opportunity of benefiting from new or enhanced flood defences. With the funding allocations announced today, 112,000 properties will benefit from improved protection. Going forward, closer working with local communities and more opportunities for outside contributions will mean that more people will ultimately be protected.

[Mary Creagh]

I am grateful to the Minister for that reply, but I am surprised that the Secretary of State, to whom this question was put, did not deem the House worthy of an answer in person from her.

We know that the Environment Agency board met last Thursday to decide this year’s flood defence allocations, and that the press were invited to a briefing today at noon. We heard from journalists that DEFRA would issue a press release today at noon, but without this urgent question—which you kindly granted, Mr Speaker—Members would have read of the total nationwide flood allocations from the media this evening rather than debating them fully in Parliament today. Can the Minister tell the House why a written ministerial statement on the flood allocations was not even laid in the Library or on the Order Paper today?

Following the comprehensive spending review, Parliament has not had any chance to debate the flood budget for 2011-12, yet this is arguably the part of the DEFRA budget which most affects our constituents. The amount was revealed in a written answer on 20 January this year, which said that the capital funding for flood defences to protect our constituents’ homes has fallen from a baseline figure last year of £354 million to £259 million. Will the Minister confirm that this is a 27% cash cut to the budget, and a 32% real-terms cut when inflation is taken into account, and not the bizarre 8% cut that he insists on briefing in the media?

We know from the Environment Agency’s own figures that,

“On average, every pound invested in improved flood protection…reduces the long term cost of flooding and coastal erosion by £8.”

Has the Minister calculated that this £95 million cut to flood defence spending this year will actually cost the nation more than three quarters of a billion pounds—£760 million—in lost future value? We know that certain schemes have been cancelled, because MPs in those areas have been briefed. The Minister mentioned 39 new schemes going forward, but 59 flood defence projects are due to start over the next four years. How many of those will be completed in the next four years, and what steps is he taking to protect areas affected by these reductions in flood defence spending?

In the past, the Government allocated flood defence money for two or three years, as large construction projects take several years to plan and complete. We have heard from the Minister today about his plans for a flood levy. Again, this is the first time we have debated that on the Floor of the House, but the consultation is on the DEFRA website. Can he reassure the House that any proposals for future flood defence funding are not skewed away from areas of high need and towards areas where people have deeper pockets?

Can the Minister say what conversations he has had with the insurance industry about its consternation at these funding cuts? Labour’s statement of principles guaranteed universal flood insurance coverage for homes in affected areas. It runs out in 2013 and was based on the understanding, following the Pitt review, that Government should have

“above inflation settlements for future spending rounds.”

Is the Minister aware of the comments of Steve Foulsham, technical service manager of the British Insurance Brokers Association, who said in Insurance Professional Magazine in January 2011:

“When the Statement of Principles comes to an end, it will be devastating for consumers”?

Has the Minister had any contact with David Williams, managing director of claims at Axa Commercial Lines, who says,

“Now that spending has been reduced…all bets are off. The Government is in breach of its side of the bargain, so if insurers wanted to stop providing cover, they would probably be able to”?

What contact has the Minister had with the industry to ensure that homes do not become uninsurable, or insurance premiums simply unaffordable? Does he agree with me that if insurance is too expensive, the Government become the insurer of last resort for those who simply cannot afford it?

Finally, may I ask that the Minister place a copy of his statement in the Library of the House, so that hon. Members in all parts of the House can communicate first with their constituents, and not be trumped once again by the newspapers?

[Richard Benyon]

I am grateful for those questions and I am sure I can reassure the hon. Lady on a number of them. First, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has just returned from a meeting at Water UK. This is an urgent question, she came to the House a short time ago, and I have been available to prepare for it. Secondly, we have a debate this afternoon in Westminster Hall when we will have the opportunity to discuss these matters in detail, and I look forward to that. Thirdly, on the hon. Lady’s question about a written statement, there is nothing different in this method of announcing funding compared with previous years. Last year, there was no written statement. These are indicative budgets put forward by the Environment Agency. Where Ministers were, rightly, held and continue to be held to account was on the overall budget, which was announced in the autumn. There are plenty of opportunities for the hon. Lady—Opposition day debates and other circumstances —to raise this issue and hold Ministers to account. The Environment Agency is publishing its indicative list of schemes that are due to go ahead in the coming year, and that goes to regional flood defence committees for approval. So we are at that stage of the process, and that is no different from previous years, and no written statement was made last year—I checked before I came to the House.

On capital spending, really, the hon. Lady has got to change her tack, because she is not comparing apples with apples; these are two very different circumstances. Rightly, the former Chancellor in the previous Government announced a 50% cut in capital spending. If the hon. Lady were sitting on the Government side of the House, she might—rightly, as we have—favour flood spending and reduce the amount of saving accordingly, as we have done. But she cannot say that as if the spending last year and this year are the same, because they are not; the economic situations are completely different. She knows that and she really needs to change her tune.

The hon. Lady asked about communities with a high deprivation index, where there is a need to protect people on low incomes. I can assure her that the system will be skewed, as it is and always was, in favour of areas where a large number of people are on low incomes; that will remain through the payment-for-outcomes scheme.

On insurance, we are working closely with the Association of British Insurers. The statement of principles was always going to end in 2013, and it is always going to require important and careful negotiation to ensure that we get a scheme that protects people and their homes and so that they can get insurance. A good working party has come out of a flood summit that we held in September, which was attended by a number of hon. Members. The ABI is optimistic that it can find a scheme that will offer the kind of protection that households will need in the future, and I hope that that will be the case.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)]

The House will not be taken in by the crocodile tears of the hon. Member for Wakefield (Mary Creagh), whose Government changed the points system in 2005, depriving many towns such as Thirsk of protection from floods. Will the Minister give the House an assurance that any local levy he seeks to raise will not trigger the 2.5% increase that would lead to a local referendum? Will he work with the insurance industry to see whether local resilience measures for houses could be extended to business properties and whether a lower insurance premium could then be attracted?

[Richard Benyon]

We very much want to gear things towards a system where the benefits can be understood by people. That is why the payment-for-outcomes scheme offers so much potential; it offers clarity, for the first time, where the current system is opaque. It will allow communities such as my hon. Friend’s to see where they are in the pecking order, why they are constantly overtaken as our understanding of flood risk management gets better and where they are missing out. Thus, when people and businesses are benefiting, they may choose to contribute and get their scheme above the line. This approach offers her and her constituents a great opportunity.

[Mr Ben Bradshaw (Exeter) (Lab)]

Can the Minister please explain how the cuts that he is being forced to confirm to the House today are consistent with a very clear assurance given by the Prime Minister to this House during Prime Minister’s questions on 17 November? He said that flood defence spending would be “protected” and would be “roughly the same” as under Labour.

[Richard Benyon]

I hope that we will be able to prove at the end of this process that the spending is broadly the same: an 8% cut compared with the previous four years, but with 15% efficiency savings that we think we can get out of the Environment Agency and a greater understanding of how we can deliver. The right hon. Gentleman must agree that what really matters is the outcome: households protected from flooding. I am really confident that at the end of this process we will be able to produce outcomes that are no worse than those in the past and perhaps even better.

[Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD)]

Will the Environment Agency continue to work with local organisations and local people on small-scale engineering improvements, which have helped to protect for the future areas such as Glendale and the Ingram valley in Northumberland, as well as considering issues such as those relating to Morpeth?

[Richard Benyon]

I can guarantee that to my right hon. Friend. I can also tell him that our understanding and the software now available to guide on things such as surface water flooding mean that a small and relatively low-cost building of defences can have an enormous effect in delivering precisely the amount of protection we want. I can assure him that the Environment Agency will continue to work with local people.

[Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab)]

In the north-west London basin, 2,000 people have been subjected to repeated flooding in the Mogden catchment area. That was to be addressed through the sustainable urban drainage scheme and the investigations that were going on into that catchment area. Can the Minister assure me that that scheme will go ahead?

[Richard Benyon]

I do not want to mislead the House or the hon. Gentleman. If he will meet me, I will be happy to give him exact and firm details about that scheme.

[Nadhim Zahawi (Stratford-on-Avon) (Con)]

Parts of my constituency were devastated by the floods in 2007. May I thank the Minister, on behalf of the people of Alcester, for allowing the project there to go ahead? May I also, on behalf of the people of Broom, come and see him about an innovative idea that we have had, with the Environment Agency, for mitigating flooding in Broom?

[Richard Benyon]

I am all for innovation. The carpet in my office is wearing thin from colleagues on both sides of the House coming to see me, but I will certainly meet my hon. Friend. I am keen to hear about new plans and I am happy to involve the Environment Agency, which perhaps has greater technical understanding than I do.

[John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab)]

The Minister mentioned the Pitt review and that the Government have protected incident response. One of the review’s recommendations was to place a statutory duty on fire and rescue authorities. The Government supported that in opposition and the Select Committee on Environment, Food and Rural Affairs supports it now. Can he give us a time scale for the implementation of that statutory duty?

[Richard Benyon]

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right to raise this issue, which is the one area of the Pitt review about which we have qualms. I am happy to discuss it because I know that he has a lot of contact with members of the fire service. I am not sure that placing a statutory duty on fire and rescue services will make any difference to the services I have seen. We are really going to be testing them through Exercise Watermark. Some of them tell me that they would like a duty, but quite a lot tell me that it would not make a blind bit of difference to how they operate and how they integrate with other emergency services. However, I have an open mind and I will listen to him.

[Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con)]

I want to take this opportunity to thank the Minister for meeting my constituents and because the schemes for Felixstowe and Thorpeness are on the national list. That has yet to be confirmed by the regional flood and coastal committee, but I am sure that it will do so. Will he tell us a little more about how the funding will help people who help themselves and how it will protect those in vulnerable households and areas?

[Richard Benyon]

I have been impressed by innovative schemes in my hon. Friend’s constituency, which we are using as a basis from which to take forward a number of ideas. I can confirm that the central Felixstowe beach management works will proceed under the next year’s budget.

[Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)]

What assessment has the Minister made of the impact that the cuts will have on my constituents in Hull who were badly flooded in 2007 and who still find the insurance market partly closed?

[Richard Benyon]

The statement of principles relates only to properties built before 2009, so for a large number of households it already does not apply. That is a major concern. We have debated this issue in the House, and the hon. Lady’s constituents who were flooded in 2007, like mine, have a right to see the road ahead on this issue. Not only are their premiums rising but their excess charges are rising too. Some of my constituents, frankly, have no insurance because they have excess charges of £10,000. She is absolutely right to ask about this issue, which we will take forward in our negotiations with the ABI. The most important thing is that we are talking. There is a lot of agreement and I believe we can find a way forward and find solutions. The insurance industry is in a state of change and we will see more specialist providers coming through this process.

[Stephen Gilbert (St Austell and Newquay) (LD)]

One of the lessons from the flooding in Cornwall before Christmas was that community flood plans and community flood wardens can make a real difference in protecting people and property. Can the Minister assure me that there is money within the settlement to continue the establishment of such groups in vulnerable areas?

--- Later in debate ---

[Richard Benyon]

We really value those measures and we are impressed with what has been happening in my hon. Friend’s constituency and elsewhere, so we will certainly encourage that. It is not just us doing that: there is also the work of Mary Dhonau and her organisation. They are trying to provide local flood forums with a toolkit they can pick up not only when a disaster happens, as with my hon. Friend’s constituents, but in areas that we know are at risk of flooding, which can be forewarned and better able to cope with flooding in future.

[Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab)]

May I reiterate that Morpeth is in my constituency? I made that point last week, but I think I need to re-emphasise it. Having listened to the Minister’s statement, can he reassure me that the Morpeth flood alleviation scheme, in its entirety, will still take place?

[Richard Benyon]

The hon. Gentleman and I met yesterday and I explained to him the complexities of the scheme, which is not going ahead in the current proposals, but will, I am sure, in future. The scheme requires further work and consideration about areas where it can be provided and give better value for money. [Interruption.] Some hon. Members are chuntering, but if we allow a scheme that does not stack up as well as others to go ahead, other hon. Members will quite rightly come to the House and try to hold me to account by asking, “Why isn’t our scheme going ahead?” That has always been the case for Ministers standing here. It is important to understand that we have to give best value for money. The hon. Gentleman’s scheme is good and I hope that it will go ahead in time.

[Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD)]

Given the constraints on the public finances, can my hon. Friend confirm that the criteria for judging the schemes before him include not only the risk but the costs of flooding? In Leeds, which is the second-biggest financial centre in the country, those costs would be £500 million. Do the criteria also include the economic benefits of putting in the flood alleviation scheme? In Leeds, the scheme is supported by all the Leeds MPs because it would attract more development to the city.

[Richard Benyon]

I am well aware of the concerns of the people of Leeds, which have been well articulated by the Members who represent that city. That scheme is hugely expensive and I do not doubt that it will bring benefits to the city. I am happy to meet Members on both sides of the House to discuss it. We want to work with the local authority and other agencies to find parts of the scheme with which we might proceed sooner than others. It will not go from conception to commissioning in one year because it is such a massive scheme, but we want to bring it forward as quickly as we can. We have to make sure that we have value for taxpayers’ money at the heart of what we are doing so that we can protect as many homes as possible across the country.

[Mr George Mudie (Leeds East) (Lab)]

I am grateful for those words from the Minister, but is he aware that Leeds city centre came within centimetres of being flooded in 2000, according to Environment Agency information, and that it had numerous near misses in 2004, 2007 and 2008? Will the Minister agree to meet Leeds MPs to discuss this? Leeds is the largest city in the north and we cannot allow it to be knocked out by flooding or to be prioritised below households. It is the major economic centre of west Yorkshire.

[Richard Benyon]

I absolutely understand that. The hon. Gentleman can come to meet me if he wishes to hear more details about this. The scheme will cost £250,000 or thereabouts per household it protects. That is an enormous amount of money and I do not deny its importance, particularly to the people of Leeds, but we have to look at it from the perspective of the whole area. If it can unlock regeneration or benefits to that city there might be opportunities under the new payment-for-outcomes scheme.

[Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op)]

You know, Mr Speaker, that I headed up flood risk management for the Environment Agency Wales between 2005 and 2010, so I appreciate the relationship between climate change and flood risk, which we have seen in New Orleans. What has happened in Queensland, Australia and in England is not a laughing matter. Will Ministers undertake to visit victims and communities who have been devastated by flooding that could have been avoided had the Minister not cut the revised budget for flood defences, which was made after the 2007 floods, and say sorry to them?

[Richard Benyon]

We have visited places that have been flooded since we came into government. The hon. Gentleman must understand that I have waded through houses reeking of sewage and have looked into the eyes of families whose houses have been flooded. He does not have to tell me about the misery that flooding causes those communities—2,500 households in my constituency were flooded in 2007. We understand how important this issue is and he knows that we cannot protect every house. There are 5.2 million houses at risk.

[Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab)]

Will the Minister take this opportunity to correct the record and confirm that my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds Central (Hilary Benn), when he was the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, ring-fenced flood defences so that in the last round of cuts there was no cut in the funding? That is why this year’s cut is a 27% cut.

[Richard Benyon]

A 50% cut and ring-fenced funding for the future could not have been defended. That is absolutely impossible. I honestly urge the hon. Gentleman to look at the realities of the situation. There is a 50% capital cut. Whichever party had been in government now would have had to take difficult decisions. We have protected the floods budget as best we can, and he should recognise that.

[Hugh Bayley (York Central) (Lab)]

Has the Environment Agency’s flood defence scheme for Water End and Leeman road in York, which defends more than 300 low-income households, been cancelled? It was due to go ahead this year and was funded to go ahead this year. If it has not been cancelled, when will it go ahead?

[Richard Benyon]

The scheme has not been cancelled. It has been deferred. There are technical difficulties with it.

[Hugh Bayley]

How long?

[Richard Benyon]

We will shortly debate the matter in Westminster Hall, when I will be happy to give the hon. Gentleman more details. I can assure him that the scheme has not been cancelled.

Flood Risk Management

Lord Benyon Excerpts

Wednesday 9th February 2011 Westminster Hall

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon)]

The hon. Member for Copeland (Mr Reed), who is excellent in so many ways, has a habit of asking me a plethora of questions and not leaving me enough time to even begin to answer them, but I will see what I can do.

As announced in the Chamber earlier today, the Government have announced £521 million to be invested in flood and coastal defences over the next year. Some 112,000 homes in England will benefit once the work has been completed. That money will help to fund 109 schemes that are already under construction, and work will begin on 39 new flood and coastal defence projects. Of those projects, 18 will provide vital repairs and safety enhancements to existing defences, and the remaining 21 will provide additional protection to 13,000 households at risk of flooding. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will be pleased that some of that investment is taking place in his constituency.

I pay great tribute to the hon. Member for York Central (Hugh Bayley) for securing the debate and for his undoubted passion in standing up for his constituents on this important issue. One question he asked me is why his region is apparently missing out so much on the allocation of schemes this year. Yorkshire has received a smaller settlement in 2011-12 than in previous years—before he includes that quote in a press release, I ask him to listen on—but that is because a large number of flood defence projects have recently been completed in the region. Hundreds of households in Yorkshire are already enjoying better protection against floods and coastal erosion as a result of projects that have been completed—I concede—over a number of years.

That is an important point because we have to take a long-term view of the spending on flood defences. Very few schemes—almost none at all—go from conception to commissioning in one year. Some of them, particularly the one we have been talking about in Leeds, are very large schemes and run over a number of years. For example, a £2 million scheme in north Doncaster was completed in 2009, which reduces flood risk to 3,000 properties. A £10 million refurbishment of the Hull tidal surge barrier was completed in 2010, and reduces flood risk to 17,000 properties. There are many more schemes.

May I address the specific points that the hon. Gentleman and others have raised in this important debate? He asked what I would do to get the Leeman road scheme back on track. I assure him that the Environment Agency and I will work with him at every stage to make sure that we can get some movement on that scheme, but I cannot guarantee where it will sit in any future year because of the variety of other schemes that will come forward. I can assure him that, if our payment for outcomes scheme becomes the modus operandi of taking forward such initiatives in future years, there will be much more clarity for constituents about where they stand on the issue.

The hon. Gentleman raised a rather more macro issue about the current economic climate, and how this issue sits within it. He is right: the deficit issue is a current account matter. Our national debt is about everything; it is not just current or capital account. There are siren voices that say that we must invest more in infrastructure. We are investing in a variety of infrastructure—not just flooding schemes, but a variety of different ones. It is a question of having a balanced approach.

The hon. Gentleman talked about whether we can assist his flood defence committee in Yorkshire in obtaining European money. I assure him that he will have the full co-operation of my Department, the Environment Agency and other colleagues across Government in trying to secure any sort of funding that we can lever out of any organisation. I very much include the European Union in that. He rightly talked about the need for slow-water schemes and to think up-stream. I have been discussing the value of that with the hon. Member for Wansbeck (Ian Lavery). We recognise that the beneficiaries in one community sometimes pay for flood defences in another area, which may well affect the viability of farming businesses and the like. We have to take a large regional approach to the matter, which is why our new payment for outcomes scheme takes a much broader view. The scheme recognises where beneficiaries are and what can be done to alleviate the problems in affected communities.

I was also asked how we are protecting businesses. The economic benefits from protecting businesses from flooding are taken into account in the prioritisation schemes included in the payment for outcomes system. That has been the situation in the past and it will continue to be so. We are working with the City of York council and the Environment Agency to consider opportunities for external funding. It is crucial that there is greater local involvement at the heart of reforming the funding for flooding and coastal erosion risk management.

My hon. Friend the Member for Suffolk Coastal (Dr Coffey) made an excellent speech and raised some important issues. I was so impressed by the level of innovation from her area. From my visit to her constituency, I remember sitting in the minibus with representatives from the Environment Agency, Natural England, the local authority, local landowners and the local community. We drove along and ensured that none of them could get out, so that we could hack out some of the problems facing landowners who just want to make a small improvement and come up against two different agencies plus the local authority. The complications of the process are, I hope, being ironed out. That was an extremely useful session. My hon. Friend is absolutely right: we need to take a longer-term view, and internal drainage boards are absolutely crucial to many of these schemes.

There was an intervention from my hon. Friend the Member for Stroud—

[Geoffrey Clifton-Brown]

For The Cotswolds.

[Richard Benyon]

For Stroud actually. He was talking about the scheme concerning small changes that can be made. We must have that level of flexibility.

The hon. Member for Leeds North East (Fabian Hamilton) spoke with passion about the Leeds scheme and the cost of flooding to his community. I absolutely understand that and the commercial driver that his community—that great city—is to that region. If we follow that logical argument and consider the 5.2 million homes that are at risk from flooding, for every single one of those homes that can get protection from flooding, there will be a financial return. We have to make sure that the financial return is as high as possible. That is why work can be done on that scheme in particular. As the equally sensible contribution from his colleague the hon. Member for Leeds East (Mr Mudie) made clear, we might risk having a Rolls-Royce when a reasonably priced family car might have served some of the purpose. I cannot go into more detail about the matter now, but I will continue to look at it very closely to ensure that we get a result.

I shall quickly mention the point about the woodlands that were being built over. I cannot remember who raised the matter, but we need to understand the impact of the issue. That is why I have been totally opposed to so much of the infill development that we have seen, with building in back gardens and green spaces. The Government have a very clear policy on that which we want to take forward.

I would love to address many of the other valid points raised by, not least, the hon. Members for Copeland, for Wansbeck and others, but I see that the clock is against me. I do not want to repeat the increasingly sterile debate about where we are and whether we are comparing apples with apples or apples with pears. In the case of the hon. Member for Copeland, I suggest it is the latter.

Oral Answers to Questions

Lord Benyon Excerpts

Thursday 3rd February 2011 Commons Chamber

[Tom Greatrex (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Lab/Co-op)]

1. What recent discussions she has had with her EU counterparts on mackerel quota.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon)]

I have had various discussions about north Atlantic mackerel, including discussions with Maria Damanaki, the EU Fisheries Commissioner, and discussions at Council of Ministers meetings in Brussels in December. Our discussions centred on hugely increased catches by Iceland and the Faroe Islands, and their failure to agree on stock management measures. In the light of that, the EU Commission agreed to table proposals for sanctions against both Iceland and the Faroe Islands if no agreement was possible in the near future.

[Tom Greatrex]

The Minister will be aware of the Icelandic Government’s comment that the proposal to block Icelandic vessels from landing mackerel in European Union ports is neither surprising nor effective, given that most of their catches are landed at Icelandic ports. Is it not time that the matter was dealt with seriously, and should not Iceland’s accession to the EU be put on hold until the dispute is resolved? It is having a hugely disruptive influence on a core economic interest in Scotland.

[Richard Benyon]

I entirely agree. My consultations with Maria Damanaki and others across the Government have centred on the proposition that when a country is seeking to join a club, tearing up the rule book before it even enters is strange behaviour. We aim to ensure that Iceland’s accession is seen in the light of its actions in relation to the fish stock.

[Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con)]

I agree that if we are to have quota rules, they must be obeyed. Has the Minister any other views on quotas— specifically in relation to fishermen in the under-10-metre sector—that he might wish to include in his discussions so that we do not experience another crisis in the summer?

[Richard Benyon]

We will be consulting the industry shortly about changes in the operation of our domestic fleet and about how we can help it to secure greater sustainability. The issue really comes down to the sustainability of stock. Approximately 1% of the egg survey is in Icelandic waters. There is an obvious way in which the Icelanders can negotiate. I urge them to operate in the way that we do across fisheries—to sit down and talk, rather than acting unilaterally.

[Nigel Adams (Selby and Ainsty) (Con)]

2. What steps she is taking to reduce fish discards; and if she will make a statement.

[Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)]

6. What steps her Department is taking to reduce fish discards.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon)]

The United Kingdom Government are pursuing a policy of minimising discards through the reform of the common fisheries policy in 2012. Work is also being undertaken domestically with our fishing industry to increase the selectivity of fishing and to improve the utilisation of the remaining unavoidable fish catches. Levels of discards from the UK fleet have been decreasing year on year since 2002. I am committed to taking further action.

[Nigel Adams]

Are there any lessons to be learned from countries such as Norway, Iceland and the Faroe Islands, which have managed to replenish their fish stocks and in which the common fisheries policy has completely failed?

[Richard Benyon]

It is beyond doubt that the common fisheries policy is broken. It is based on a centralised top-down system, and we must reform it by decentralising it. We must also make the management of our fisheries relevant to the way in which we manage the marine environment as a whole.

We can learn lessons from other countries. As our exchanges on the previous question made clear, they are not repositories of pure virtue, but there are certainly lessons that we can learn about the local and regional sea base and management.

[Matthew Hancock]

Was the Minister as shocked as I was by a recent television documentary about fish discards? I was appalled by what fishermen who work so hard have to do because of the rules. Will the Minister assure me that he has been working on the issue not just since the public outcry, but since the moment that he was given the job?

[Richard Benyon]

I applaud the Fish Fight campaign, which has been conducted very ably by Hugh Fearnley-Whittingstall. My one criticism is of the line that the fight back starts here. I should say in fairness to the previous Government that the fight back started many years ago—and the present Government, too, have worked extremely hard on catch quotas, fishing for the market, and a variety of measures to reduce the number of discards. I am happy to work with anyone. We need to win public support and, in that regard, the programme was a great success.

[Tony Baldry]

Speaking as the last Conservative Fisheries Minister in the Major Government, I can tell my hon. Friend that I thought he was considerably better at identifying fish at Billingsgate than I could ever have been.

I believe that the whole House supports my hon. Friend on the need to reform the common fisheries policy. Let me say to those who oppose quotas that reducing fishing and protecting fish stocks by reducing effort is no easier an option, and that we must face the reality that fishermen will not want to keep their boats in port.

[Richard Benyon]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his kind words. When interviewed at five o’clock in the morning, I would be hard pressed to recognise my own children, let alone fish stocks. I am grateful to my friends and enemies who have sent me fish charts, with which I wiled away the long winter evenings. He rightly says that there is no one-size-fits-all solution to this problem; there are opportunities to increase effort control, but we also have to deal with the problem of quotas. That is a problem in a mixed fishery and it has been part of the driver towards the number of discards, which we are so keen to reduce.

[Dr Eilidh Whiteford (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)]

I know that the Minister is well aware of the pioneering efforts made by the Scottish white fish fleet and the Scottish Government in recent years to reduce dramatically the number of discards going into the North sea—the relevant figure is about 30%. People in coastal communities are pleased that the issue is now getting the wider prominence it deserves and has deserved for a long time. I am grateful to him for outlining his Government’s commitment to radical reform of the common fisheries policy, but I still question whether there really is the political will across the European Union to make the kind of changes necessary to tackle discards. We welcome his commitment, but what are the realistic assessments—

[Mr Speaker]

Order. We do have to have a question. I call the Minister.

[Richard Benyon]

I am grateful for the hon. Lady’s comments and I applaud the work of her constituents in trying to ensure that catch quotas work. I am glad that we managed to expand the scheme in the December round. She is right to say that we have to build alliances across the European Union, and I am working extremely hard to do that in the fringes of Council meetings and elsewhere. We are trying to get support at the radical end of the reform spectrum, so that we can achieve the kind of changes that mean that discards are a thing of the past and we can address the concerns raised by her constituents and constituents of all Members, including those representing inland constituencies, by ensuring that sustainability is at the heart of our fisheries management policies.

[Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab)]

One of the methods of dealing with the problem of overfishing and depleted fish stocks is the use of marine conservation zones. Will the Minister update the House on what he is doing to ensure that there are more of these zones, not only in British waters, but overseas?

[Richard Benyon]

We are progressing with the implementation of the Marine and Coastal Access Act 2009, which will result in marine protected areas—marine conservation zones—around the coasts. We have four projects up and running, and I am working very hard to ensure that they are properly resourced and working towards the timetable of 2012. I very much hope that they will be able to deliver on that, and I will keep the House informed on progress. At the recent OSPAR talks in Bergen I was able to support a wider proposal in respect of international waters. The work we do on international fisheries and fisheries partnerships is key to ensuring that fishery conservation measures not only apply in our own waters, but are followed up elsewhere.

[Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) (Lab)]

Does the Minister agree that, as Denmark has shown, further action can be taken by this Government, in conjunction with the devolved Administrations, to cut discard levels this year? Will he seek approval for an increase in the scope of this year’s catch quota trials, which half the Scottish white fish fleet expressed an interest in joining? Will he pledge to incentivise investment in more selective nets and in on-ship CCTV to monitor what stocks are being taken from the sea? Would those measures, together with radical reform of the CFP, not add up to an effective national action plan to end for good this appalling waste of good quality fish?

[Mr Speaker]

There were a lot of questions there, but I know that we will hear a pithy response from the Minister.

[Richard Benyon]

The UK Government have a very clear strategy to ensure that we reduce the level of discards and do not wait until 2012 to achieve that. Our fishing for the market scheme is addressing the 54% of discards created by the fact that there is no market for those products. We also managed to get an extension of the catch quota trials, and I was extremely pleased about that, because they achieve the virtue of catching less but landing more. That is the holy grail of fisheries management.

[Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD)]

4. What progress she has made on improving the performance of the Rural Payments Agency.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Adrian Sanders (Torbay) (LD)]

8. What steps she is taking to reduce the volume of international trade in ivory.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon)]

The UK supports the global ban on the international trade in raw ivory imposed in 1989. While occasional one-off sales have been permitted in the past, we are working to ensure that no further sales of ivory take place without firm evidence that such sales will reduce poaching. In the UK, we employ stricter domestic measures than those required under the convention on international trade in endangered species concerning the trade in ivory.

[Mr Sanders]

I think the Government are doing a good job, building on the work of the previous Government, but there is still a great deal of concern that we are not tackling where the exchange takes place: on the internet. Do the Government have any plans to try to stop the sale of ivory through internet transactions?

[Richard Benyon]

My hon. Friend is right to point to that development in the illegal trade in ivory. For that reason, it is important that we continue to support schemes that give us evidence: for example, MIKE, the monitoring of illegal killing of elephants; and—dealing precisely with his point—ETIS, the elephant trade information system. We support those international efforts to make sure that we understand the problem and that we in this country have our house in order. I am impressed by the expertise found in a variety of agencies and shall continue to ensure that we play our part.

[Annette Brooke (Mid Dorset and North Poole) (LD)]

9. What steps she is taking towards reform of the common agricultural policy.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mrs Mary Glindon (North Tyneside) (Lab)]

11. When she plans to make an announcement on funding for individual flood defence schemes during the comprehensive spending review period.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon)]

The Environment Agency has been consulting regional flood defence committees on the programme for 2011-12. The agency’s board will be deciding the allocation of funding to each region shortly. Information on individual schemes will be published as soon as possible. Decisions on funding for future years depend on the outcome of DEFRA’s consultation on the way schemes are funded.

[Mrs Glindon]

People in the north-east whose homes were devastated by the floods in 2008 have learned that planned flood defences have now been deferred. What message does the Minister have for those people who, as well as living with the worry of future floods, have the added financial concern of losing all insurance cover because those defences are not guaranteed to go ahead?

[Richard Benyon]

First, those schemes have not been rejected; they will be looked at again to ensure that they can provide good value for money for the taxpayer. Secondly, we are consulting on a payment-for-outcomes scheme, which for the first time will ensure transparency in flood funding, allowing local communities to understand where they are in the pecking order and how they can assist in ensuring that their flood schemes come forward. On insurance, we are working closely with the Association of British Insurers, so that we can ensure future cover after the statement of principles ends.

[Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD)]

Everyone realises that money is tight, but will the Minister look again at the importance of the Leeds flood alleviation scheme on the River Aire? In 2007, the city centre was centimetres away from flooding, with £500 million of damage to 3,000 properties projected. It is an incredibly important scheme that cannot simply be left to gather dust.

[Richard Benyon]

I am conscious of the scheme’s importance to the people of Leeds, and much work can be done to ensure that parts of it are certainly brought forward in a viable form. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has had discussions with the hon. Gentleman’s colleagues and she will be happy, as I will, to discuss the intricacies of the scheme. At the moment, it will cost roughly £250,000 per property, which is a difficult sum to get around in terms of value for money. Many other schemes provide much better benefit, but I very much hope that we can work with the local authority and with hon. Members to ensure that, in time, we bring forward elements of it.

[Mr Jamie Reed (Copeland) (Lab)]

It is a matter of fact that the Government have decided to cut flood defence spending by 27%. Those cuts mean that the Environment Agency has had to change the way in which it allocates resources through its outcome-measure assessments, and that has already had an effect upon flood defence schemes throughout the country. Will the Secretary of State today give a guarantee—not assurances, but a guarantee—that her cuts will not prejudice flood defence schemes in rural areas and other less populated areas, where the economies of scale for flood defence spending are very different from schemes in more urban areas?

[Richard Benyon]

I can assure the hon. Gentleman that proposals under the payment-for-outcomes scheme, on which we are consulting, will make things easier for communities that have traditionally missed out on flood funding, such as those he describes in rural areas, and that funding allocation will be clear. I shall just correct him, however. On a direct comparison of funding, we are spending approximately 8% less than the previous Government over the same period. One year ago, his party announced 50% capital cuts, and if he were sitting on the Government Benches and intending to favour flood funding, he would have to explain where else he was going to make cuts.

[Mr Dave Watts (St Helens North) (Lab)]

12. What recent representations she has received on the sale of land managed by the Forestry Commission in England.

--- Later in debate ---

[Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) (LD)]

15. What steps she is taking to reduce fish discards; and if she will make a statement.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon)]

I refer my right hon. Friend to the answer that I gave earlier.

[Simon Hughes]

I listened to the Minister’s earlier answers. Fish, like forests, are of as much interest in Bermondsey and Southwark as anywhere else in Britain. What is he doing not only to deal with the common fisheries policy, but to ensure that people at home understand the benefits of eating more fish, particularly sustainably caught fish, so that they can both be healthier and help to solve this Europe-wide failure?

[Richard Benyon]

The Fishing for the Market project, which is being carried out by DEFRA, analyses the 54% of discards that are created because there is no market for those fish. Some of them are perfectly edible delicious fish, such as dab. We must also ensure that the public ask for Marine Stewardship Council accredited fish, which can be bought at the fishmonger and the supermarket. Supermarkets are the key to driving forward this agenda.

[John Cryer (Leyton and Wanstead) (Lab)]

The common fisheries policy is probably the most unmitigated disaster in EU history—and that is up against some pretty stiff competition. The doctrine of common resource has been a disaster from the beginning. The Minister says that the common fisheries policy is broken, so why is he talking in terms of reform. Why does he not just abolish it?

[Richard Benyon]

I could spend all my energy trying to unpick the common fisheries policy from various treaties, probably going back to the treaty of Rome. However, I am dealing with an industry in crisis, and with people’s jobs. They want me to push at a door that is open. I urge the hon. Gentleman to read the Commission’s paper and position statement, because for the first time there is an opportunity to decentralise this matter and to get back more local control. That is what the industry wants, and what we all want.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD)]

18. What recent assessment she has made of the effectiveness of the convention on international trade in endangered species; and if she will make a statement.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon)]

DEFRA has not undertaken any recent assessment of the effectiveness of CITES. The next opportunity to examine the extent to which the convention is delivering the objectives of its strategic plan will be the CITES standing committee in August.

[Jo Swinson]

The Minister may be aware of the recent cross-border crackdown on illegal wildlife smuggling in central Africa, which led to arrests and the seizure of 150 kg of ivory, 1,000 African grey parrots, 17 turtle shells, seven leopard skins, two lion skins and a rather grisly haul of ape heads. That successful operation was co-ordinated by Last Great Ape, a dedicated non-governmental organisation. What is DEFRA doing with ministerial colleagues to ensure that such civil society organisations, which are vital to that work, are supported by Department for International Development funding and backed up by ambassadors in making it clear that our endangered species must be protected?

[Richard Benyon]

I applaud my hon. Friend for her commitment to this matter. I will certainly work with colleagues in Departments such as DFID to ensure that we co-ordinate the great deal of work that we are doing to sponsor schemes that crack down on poaching, such as the one that I described earlier. We have to understand that the real problem is the end user. We can have our house in order here, and our wildlife crime unit does wonderful work supporting endeavours such as those that she mentions, but ultimately we have to deal with those who believe that the products in question are useful in medicine, and those who use ivory in ornaments. That is where the problem really comes from.

[Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD)]

The Minister will be aware that if we are to enforce the convention in Britain, we need to ensure that we have at our airports and seaports the customs officers who are needed to do the work. Can he assure us that there will be no diminution in the effort put in to ensure that endangered species and other animal products are not introduced to this country?

[Richard Benyon]

I can assure the hon. Gentleman that I am working very closely with Home Office colleagues on their consultation on the new border regime. I have visited the animal reception centre at Heathrow and seen the expertise there, and we want to keep that skill base active across the country.

[Mr Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con)]

T1. If she will make a statement on her departmental responsibilities.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon)]

I can assure the hon. Lady that I am working closely with ministerial colleagues in the Department for Transport to ensure that a variety of solutions are found in respect of rural bus services. One problem is that such services are extremely expensive, and the vast majority of the buses go around the countryside transporting nothing but air. We need more customer-responsive local solutions. The Government can assist those in a variety of ways.

[Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con)]

T2. Does the Secretary of State agree that the new National forest, which covers much of my constituency, is a model of what can be achieved by the private sector and the third sector in delivering excellent access to, and enjoyment of, the amenities of our woodlands?

--- Later in debate ---

[Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD)]

T5. People in Northumberland will never forget the devastating impact of floods on communities such as Rothbury, Warkworth and Morpeth. Will the Minister therefore assure me that he will take a personal interest in the Morpeth flood relief scheme? It is obviously impossible for all flood relief schemes to proceed at the same time, but the impact on Morpeth, which was visited by leaders from all political parties, was devastating.

[Richard Benyon]

I am more than aware of the impact of those floods on the people of Morpeth, and of the fantastic community spirit that came out at the time. The community wants to ensure resilience against flooding in future. I assure the right hon. Gentleman that I will meet him, and them, at any time to ensure that we can carry that forward.

[Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab)]

Morpeth is actually in my constituency. The townsfolk are absolutely livid—and devastated—that the Morpeth alleviation scheme is being deferred. Will the Minister agree to meet me as a matter of urgency to discuss the Morpeth project?

[Richard Benyon]

I am very happy to meet the hon. Gentleman and members of the lead local flood authority to discuss that with him, if he can arrange a time with my office.

[Andrew Bingham (High Peak) (Con)]

T6. I am sure that, like me and many other hon. Members, my right hon. Friend the Minister has received many representations on the future of public forests. I have more than 3,000 acres of Forestry Commission land in my constituency. Public rights of way will be protected by law, but will he give me a cast-iron guarantee that permissive access rights will also be protected, maintained and freely available under any future management agreements?

--- Later in debate ---

[Simon Hart (Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire) (Con)]

T8. Can the Minister offer any help and support to the monks of Caldey island off the south Pembrokeshire coast in their attempts to introduce the red squirrel to their island?

[Richard Benyon]

I applaud the monks, and their Member of Parliament, for their support for this scheme. Like me, they have seen what has happened in Anglesey and the eradication of the grey squirrel there, which has almost been achieved. That will bring benefits for the regeneration of the red squirrel, and we are looking at it closely in connection with our project in the north of England.

[Jessica Morden (Newport East) (Lab)]

Last week I had more representations from constituents who are saddled with the problem of unadopted drains and sewers. Can the Minister give me an update on what progress has been made since the consultation finished at the end of last year?

[Richard Benyon]

We will make an announcement very shortly. I understand the fears and concerns of the hon. Lady’s constituents, and we are determined to take forward that very important part of the Flood and Water Management Act 2010. I will be in touch with her shortly.

[Paul Uppal (Wolverhampton South West) (Con)]

T9. Recently in Wolverhampton we had a serious incident involving a dangerous dog. Does the Minister agree that police officers need adequate training to deal with dangerous dogs and the skills necessary to handle such situations?

Public Forest Estate (England)

Lord Benyon Excerpts

Wednesday 2nd February 2011 Commons Chamber

[Huw Irranca-Davies]

A second start. Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker.

When I was in the privileged position of being the Minister for Marine and Natural Environment at the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, one thing stood out about DEFRA: all the staff, agencies, green organisations and third sector organisations believed that they were on a mission in terms of the natural environment. We created national parks, protected wildlife, tackled wildlife crime, worked internationally to protect biodiversity and we increased access to the countryside and the quality of our uplands and seas. We also looked after the forests and promoted more woodland coverage, making steady strides to increase our poor showing among European nations.

I do not honestly believe that anybody from DEFRA, the Forestry Commission, Natural England or a host of other organisations, whose staff deeply care emotionally and intellectually about our woodlands and our natural environment, genuinely supports the policy. I do not believe that the Minister’s heart is in it; that might be the same for the Secretary of State, truth be told. I am sure that the Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, the hon. Member for Newbury (Richard Benyon) does not support it.

Interestingly, however, the hon. Gentleman does not have a say. He has most of my old responsibilities as a Minister for the environment, but with one hugely noticeable exception: forestry. Why? He still covers, as I did, everything else in the natural environment, but forestry has disappeared from the environment Minister’s remit. That is no slur on his abilities, because he is no fool, but it is telling that forestry has gone from the environment Minister’s portfolio. The message is quite simple: the forests and woodland, from the inception of this Government, were downgraded in importance; they were no longer part of the natural environment brief.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon)]

I am very grateful to my predecessor for giving way. There is a very good reason why I do not have responsibility for forestry: I have some personal interests. I am happy to declare an interest now. My local village of Beenham had a small piece of Forestry Commission land in which my children and I bought small shares with the village as part of a community project. It is an absolute model, which we are trying to follow under the consultation before us.

[Huw Irranca-Davies]

That is a very useful clarification, which I accept.

The former Secretary of State, my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds Central (Hilary Benn), who is now shadow Leader of the House, was always clear about the Forestry Commission. He and generations of senior Ministers with the same responsibility held jealously to public ownership of the forest estate, because that was in the interests of the British people. Why? There are 13 million tonnes of carbon stored in the trees, 22 million tonnes in the ground and more than 100 million day visitors every year. Public access is protected under the Countryside and Rights of Way Act 2000, and the forest estate is the largest provider of green space around cities, including regeneration and growth areas such as Merseyside, Manchester and the Thames Gateway, with 3,500 hectares established over the 10 years to 2009 and more potential to expand that green infrastructure. Even then, only 10% of the population—notably, in disadvantaged areas—have access to any woodland within 500 metres of home. We are still way below the EU average.

Flooding (Steart)

Lord Benyon Excerpts

Wednesday 12th January 2011 Westminster Hall

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Streeter. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Bridgwater and West Somerset (Mr Liddell-Grainger) on securing this debate, and other hon. Friends who have contributed. I will try to address their points also.

My hon. Friend the Member for Bridgwater and West Somerset spoke with passion on behalf of his constituency, but I must consider the wider issues, not just the national budgets that we provide to the Environment Agency and other organisations, but also the Severn estuary. The scheme has many positive points. It is the only viable way that the Government can continue to provide defences and secure access to the village of Steart while meeting our environmental objective for the estuary.

The Severn estuary is one of our most important wildlife areas, as well as a great economic asset. It has more than 200 km of coastal defences, which will provide in excess of £5 billion of benefits over time to more than 100,000 residential and commercial properties. The shoreline management plan highlights the need to maintain and improve most of those defences. However, a consequence is that there will be a substantial loss of internationally designated intertidal habitat. Our investment prioritisation process is focused principally on protecting people and property and that is where the vast majority of our money is spent. However, we must acknowledge that what we do to protect people and property has an impact on the natural environment, and that must be taken into account.

My hon. Friend keeps referring to £28 million, but the figure I have is £20 million. That may have an element of semantics, but it is a considerable sum. I assure him that I do not easily agree to spending £20 million in this or any climate. Every penny should count, and I have looked carefully into the matter. We will continue to invest in defence in the Severn estuary, despite the impact on the natural environment, because of the imperative reasons for doing so. That is permitted under the EC habitats directive as long as appropriate compensatory habitat is secured. Our plans to manage and improve the defences therefore depend on sufficient compensatory habitat being secured before the protected habitat is lost due to the flood defence construction work.

There has already been a loss in the Severn estuary, and without the Steart scheme we would fail to maintain the integrity of that protected Natura 2000 site. My hon. Friend may rail against Europe, but frankly, whether we are in Europe or not, I and the Government value what is set out in the Natura 2000 directive, and my hon. Friend should value it if he minds about the valuable asset that is the natural environment in the Severn estuary.

The EU habitats directive, together with the birds directive, forms the cornerstone of Europe’s nature conservation policy to maintain or restore natural habitats and the population of species of wild fauna and flora at a favourable conservation status, and is a key element in the EU’s commitment to halt the loss of biodiversity within the EU by 2020. That is also a firm priority of the Government. With that in mind, I now turn to the Steart scheme. Steart village and peninsula are currently protected by more than 12 km of flood defences. Beyond the short term it will not be economically viable or sustainable to maintain existing defences. To do so would cost in the region of £1 million per property.

The issue has been considered in the shoreline management plan, which highlighted the peninsula as a place where the managed realignment of the defence provides the best option for continuing to protect the village and its access as well as creating habitat to offset the impact of crucial work elsewhere in the area. Indeed, Steart has been identified as the most cost-effective place in the estuary for habitat creation without geomorphic side effects such as adjacent erosion. The twin objectives of the project are therefore to create the habitat we need and protect the village and its access. It forms a vital part of an integrated and sustainable coastal management solution for the Severn estuary. It will provide the only foreseeable opportunity to improve flood protection to Steart drove, the only access route to Steart village. It will help to maintain the existing standard of protection and the new defences can be expected to last longer than the current defences. If my hon. Friend claims that what is happening is just about the habitats directive and just about providing wetland for birds, that is not correct. It is about providing flood protection for his constituents and access to a community that would otherwise be cut off at high tides, or because of further erosion.

As my hon. Friend said, the Environment Agency has carried out extensive consultations, and I understand that the majority of the local residents strongly support the proposals and recognise the flood risk management benefits that the scheme would bring. I hear what my hon. Friend says about the response to the Environment Agency consultation, and I am always happy to consider how consultations are carried out and why there is such a low response rate. One reason could be that people are quite in favour of the scheme. I received a copy of a letter to my hon. Friend from the parish council, which seems to be very supportive of the scheme. There is an organisation called the Steart residents group, headed by Dr Phillip Edwards, who wrote a letter to the local paper. He said that

“while the SRG may not have always seen eye-to-eye with the Environment Agency over all aspects of the scheme, the EA’s staff have demonstrated throughout the last three years of work and consultations the highest levels of professional integrity and technical proficiency”.

He goes on to talk about the value of the scheme, and the group’s opposition to my hon. Friend’s opposition.

I cannot second-guess the exact level of support or otherwise for the scheme, but I assure my hon. Friend that we do not feel that we are trampling on the views of local people. I understand that a number of people want it.

[Mr Liddell-Grainger]

I want to suggest that the Minister’s Department should let me have the information about who has replied. Secondly, the gentleman that he mentioned—I was going to mention this myself—spends most of the year with the UN; and he is one person, who has set something up with no one else. I must gently tell the Minister that what he read out is not the case. If he would let me have the relevant information, I am more than happy to discuss it with him, and with the people concerned.

[Richard Benyon]

One of the two references I made was to the local paper, so presumably the hon. Gentleman can get access to that: I am happy to give him the copy I received. The second reference was to a letter to my hon. Friend from the parish council, which was copied to Otterhampton parish council. I cannot second-guess how many members the Steart residents group has, but the fact is I get a different impression of opinion from the hon. Gentleman’s.

Perhaps I may touch on points made by other hon. Members. My hon. Friend the Member for Newton Abbot (Anne Marie Morris) is a redoubtable campaigner on behalf of her constituents for flood alleviation in her constituency. I can barely move in this building without having my collar felt by her, in her determination to raise that issue. I can only assure her that we shall make available all the information about what schemes will go ahead in the near future and, under the payment for outcomes scheme, what options are left to her constituents to gear in other funding if theirs is not in the top flight of schemes. That will give clarity to her constituents about what is required for the schemes to go ahead. I cannot give her any information, because I do not have any about that scheme.

I have considerable sympathy with my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol North West (Charlotte Leslie), because I recognise the importance of Bristol docks. I do not dismiss them, as they are an important local employer and a major hub of activity that is vital to us as an importing and exporting country and to the wider benefit of the Bristol area. I recognise that we are dealing with something that relates to the Severn estuary, its entire ecosystem and habitats and, importantly, the people and jobs that come from that part of the country.

In conclusion, the proposed scheme is not only the most cost-effective habitat compensation to enable the Severn estuary flood risk management strategy to move forward; it also offers improved flood protection to the local area. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Bridgwater and West Somerset for raising the matter. He has made me much better educated about it because I have spent a considerable time preparing for the debate, and I listened with interest to his enjoyable remarks.

I hope that what I have said has helped to highlight to my hon. Friend the need to manage flood risk in ways that protect people and property and deliver good value for money to the taxpayer, but also meet our environmental obligations. If we do not do that, we cannot legally improve flood protection elsewhere in the estuary. If we did it without compensatory works, that would leave the taxpayer liable to fines from Europe. That is not something that I have the power to avoid, and no hon. Member should be happy for it to happen, because we are in strapped financial circumstances. If we did nothing we would also lose valuable habitat and all that that offers to us as a society. Our emphasis is always on working with nature, wherever possible, to reduce the risks to people while also meeting social and environmental objectives.

Pollution (Horn Lane, Acton)

Lord Benyon Excerpts

Wednesday 15th December 2010 Westminster Hall

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Ealing Central and Acton (Angie Bray) on raising this matter again in the House. She raised it last week in Environment, Food and Rural Affairs questions. She has held frequent meetings and has been a prolific letter writer on behalf of her constituents, and is to be commended for her tenacity in raising an important issue for her local residents.

The emergence of SHLAP—Stop Horn Lane Pollution—is a great credit to the community. It shows strength of spirit and determination to resolve a problem that is clearly blighting the lives of local people. I will deal in detail with the circumstances later, but it is important first to set the context.

Good air quality is fundamental to health and the quality of life. The public health White Paper, which was published only last week, highlighted that. It also highlighted the important role that local authorities play in ensuring that their citizens and communities have clean air to breathe and, with other agencies and local businesses, in ensuring that pollution is kept under control and its impacts minimised.

We have seen significant improvements in air quality over many decades, but, as this case demonstrates, poor air quality continues to have an impact on peoples’ lives. Moreover, poor air quality and pollution hotspots, as in the case of Horn lane and the industrial site located there, can blight the lives of local communities significantly. The coalition Government have made a clear commitment to work towards achieving air quality pollution limits in the UK, and co-operation between the Environment Agency, local authorities and others is key to achieving that commitment.

Several points that my hon. Friend made have to be dealt with at the local level—they cannot be dealt with from the desk of a DEFRA Minister. However, she was right to say that leadership at every level is vital. I shall ensure that her powerful words are heard by the Environment Agency, and I am sure that she will ensure that they are heard by the local authority. I shall also ensure that we continue to work with her to get a proper solution to the problem.

Local communities and citizens have an important role to play in highlighting shortcomings and in drawing them to the attention of higher authorities if they cannot achieve local solutions. I am pleased, therefore, to have this opportunity to say more about the action that is being taken to deal with the matter.

This case shows that safeguarding local air quality is not a simple matter, and that many different sources can contribute to the problem. An air quality monitoring site was installed on Horn lane by the London borough of Ealing in 2005. As my hon. Friend said, it measured very high levels of dust particulates, also known as PM10, which is particulate matter of less than 10 microns in diameter—smaller than the width of a single human hair. PM10 is composed of dust from exhaust fumes, brakes and tyres, aggregates, which she referred to, and industrial processes such as waste management and construction and demolition works. It is not visible to the naked eye but can be monitored, and it impacts on human health, particularly that of vulnerable groups with respiratory problems.

In the case of Horn lane, there are several potential sources of PM10 close to the monitoring station, including transport from Horn lane and the nearby A40, other transport sources such as buses and trains, and pollution from the industrial site, which has several units engaged in concrete production, aggregate supply, scrap metal and waste transfer, and also heavy vehicle movements. That combination of sources adds to the load of dust and pollution and requires that several agencies work together with operators to control it.

The local authority has overall responsibility for local air quality in Ealing and for plans to improve it. The Environment Agency is responsible for ensuring that waste management sites regulated under the Environmental Permitting (England and Wales) Regulations 2010 do not contribute significantly to breaches of national air quality objectives. If a site is contributing to such a breach, the agency develops site action plans with the operator to achieve improvement within an agreed time scale. If improvements do not happen, the agency has the power to serve improvement notices, to stop the activity, to initiate criminal proceedings or to revoke the site’s environmental permit.

At Horn lane, the Environment Agency regulates part of the Yeoman Aggregates site, the Gowing & Pursey waste transfer site and Horn Lane Metals. Ealing council regulates one other unit and, with Transport for London, has responsibility for reducing pollution from transport sources. That is a complex picture, and I know that my hon. Friend and local residents have been concerned about how the arrangements ensure that proper controls are in place. It is right to take into account the valuable local employment provided by firms such as those operating in Horn lane, but these firms must take all reasonable steps to minimise their environmental impact.

The Environment Agency has focused particularly on Gowing & Pursey and has pressed this company over the past four years to improve its control and management of dust, especially from vehicles using the site. Both the London borough of Ealing and the Environment Agency have taken enforcement action against Gowing & Pursey. Most recently, in 2009, the agency served a notice under the environmental permitting regulations, requiring the company to supply it with air quality monitoring data. The company failed to do that, but, following the initiation of enforcement action, it is now supplying the required information.

Further legal enforcement, in principle, remains an option. However, due to the sensitive location at Horn lane, the agency believes that the best option is for all waste activities to occur within a building. I am told that the operator has started discussions with Ealing council on planning permission for this activity to take place in a building.

In addition to these actions, the agency continues to require Gowing & Pursey to monitor for particulates arising from its operations and has increased its inspection and audit frequency for all the sites that it regulates on Horn lane. The agency also carries out regular joint visits with the London borough of Ealing, so that the statutory powers available can be used to improve air quality.

My hon. Friend mentioned relocating facilities on the site. That might be the ideal solution. Planning is a matter for the local authority. I urge her to explore that option—I know that she is doing that—to ensure that in the medium term, at least, a solution can be achieved, leading to different zoning, so that all the benefits that she sees coming forward from a development such as Crossrail can be integrated and factored into a plan dealing with the inappropriate activities that take place so close to so many people’s homes.

Since 2006, levels of particulate matter pollution have declined from an annual average of more than 217 micrograms per cubic metre to 75 micrograms per cubic metre most recently. This is a significant improvement and the data are publicly available if further details are wanted. I am sure that that is of no comfort to the members of SHLAP, who just want this matter resolved and are not particularly fascinated by the details of the data. Although pollution has reduced, all the parties involved recognise that levels are still too high and further improvements are needed.

I understand that the area manager for the Environment Agency met my hon. Friend and the community representatives she mentioned. From that meeting, it was agreed that the agency would continue to monitor air quality around the site to pinpoint the source and would make frequent unannounced visits to ensure that the site was operating in line with its permitting requirements.

I will take away the points raised by my hon. Friend about the pollution alarm and will personally ensure that the Environment Agency requires that, if a site licence requirement says that once the alarm is triggered activities must cease until pollutants reach an acceptable level, and if that is not happening and it is within the means of the Environment Agency to solve the problem—not some other agency—action will be taken.

The agency also agreed to facilitate a meeting with the operators and the community to explore further control measures. I understand that that meeting has yet to take place. This co-operative and transparent approach is important to provide assurance to the local community that action is being taken to improve matters, particularly in this case, where a number of sources could be contributing to breaches of air quality objectives. It is only possible to take enforcement action once the most significant source has been isolated. Although the majority of particulates that are causing problems may or may not be coming from one major source, they might not be coming exclusively from there. It is important that we get the full picture.

As can be seen, this is a complex matter and it is necessary for the local authority, the Environment Agency and others to work together to identify pollution sources. They must also ensure that the responsible operators on the site take suitable measures to improve air quality and monitor levels of pollution. Both the local authority and the agency have taken enforcement action and air pollution has reduced over the years since this engagement, but everyone would agree that more improvements are necessary.

I encourage local residents to continue their dialogue with the Environment Agency and the London borough of Ealing; to keep this site under close scrutiny; and to work with the operators to identify further improvements.

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for turning a spotlight on this issue and championing the concerns of local residents. They should know how hard and assiduously their Member of Parliament works for them, dealing with important problems for people living in that area.

Flooding (Cornwall)

Lord Benyon Excerpts

Wednesday 15th December 2010 Westminster Hall

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Clark.

I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for St Austell and Newquay (Stephen Gilbert) for securing this debate, and to him and my hon. Friends the Members for South East Cornwall (Sheryll Murray) and for Truro and Falmouth (Sarah Newton) for their leadership in dealing with the aftermath of this incident, which is to their credit. It is also to their credit that they have generously praised many others, whom I will talk about. The good contact that we had with my hon. Friends and their understanding of the problems is noted in the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs. I am delighted that that communication worked so well.

As my hon. Friend the Member for St Austell and Newquay said, the intense rainfall in the early hours of 17 November had a huge impact on his constituency and the constituencies of my hon. Friends the Members for South East Cornwall and for Truro and Falmouth. Such events are not unknown in the south-west. We have seen from previous flooding how resilient communities in that part of the world are. The recent flooding only reinforces that view.

The Prime Minister and the Secretary of State were both moved by the obvious examples of good neighbourliness—the work that people were doing to support their friends and neighbours in this crisis. My hon. Friend rightly mentioned the good work done by Cornwall council, the emergency services and many others. I echo every word of his praise.

The severity of the flooding came as a surprise to many, but that is not to say that the forecasts were wrong. The flood forecasting centre issued an extreme rainfall alert at 16.22 hours on 16 November, highlighting the risk of heavy rainfall overnight that may lead to surface water flooding. The main purpose of such alerts is to allow local authorities and emergency responders to prepare to respond in accordance with their multi-agency plans. I will talk in a minute about my hon. Friend’s important point on widening the recipient base of these warnings to ensure that we can get to more people when such events are predicted.

My hon. Friend made a good point about surface water flooding, which I noticed in my constituency in 2007; if we can develop flood warden schemes, similar to the neighbourhood watch scheme, that would be a useful, successful way of allowing people to do emergency resilience work to protect their homes and belongings. Not everybody is on e-mail or able to get a mobile phone signal, particularly in remote parts of the country. Nevertheless, if we can find ways to get the information to people so that they can start preparing, on a street-by-street basis or by locality, we can improve it. We are not yet where we want to be in terms of getting more people aware of flood risk. I welcome my hon. Friend’s suggestions, some of which I will discuss shortly.

The Met Office issued a flash severe weather warning, as my hon. Friend said, at 22.32 hours on Tuesday 16 November. Flash warnings are issued when the Met Office has 80% or greater confidence that severe weather is expected in the following few hours. The Met Office routinely issues early warnings in advance of severe weather that is expected to lead to significant and widespread disruption. In this case, the Met Office, in consultation with the FFC and the EA, did not issue an early weather warning, as the rainfall was considered unlikely to result in widespread disruption.

In the lead-up to the event, the national and local weather forecasts on television and radio, and on the Met Office website, highlighted the risk of heavy rain and gale-force winds in the south-west. Forecasts of heavy rainfall and extreme rainfall alerts are not rare, as we all know. The total amount of rainfall in Cornwall was not as great as in other significant flooding events. However, it is important to note that the intensity of the rainfall—38 mm in one hour in some locations—was unusual and a combination of surface water, small watercourses being overwhelmed and drains not being able to cope with the intense rainfall, resulted in torrents of water flowing through the streets and into people’s homes and businesses.

Weather forecasting plays a critical role in flood-risk management and the Met Office is independently recognised as world-leading in this regard. However, it is important to manage expectations in terms of what is currently scientifically possible. Those very localised weather events are challenging to predict with a long lead time, but I am confident that the Met Office will continue to push the boundaries of what is possible. It remains as important as ever that local authorities, emergency responders, utility companies and others have well practised plans for dealing with flooding events. In Cornwall, those plans clearly worked very well. The speed of the emergency was matched by the speed of the emergency responders, for which they deserve great praise.

In the cold light of day, my hon. Friend, not unreasonably, pointed to the need for improved warnings for those who are at risk of such events. The Prime Minister and the Secretary of State commented on that when they visited Cornwall in the days following the flooding. Let me stress that the Government are committed to improving their warning and information systems for all types of emergency, including flooding, and are looking at a number of options to deliver better public warnings.

The current consultation on our flood and coastal erosion risk management strategy for England says that the Environment Agency and the Met Office will continue to develop and improve the national flood warning service provided through their joint flood forecasting service. They will do so by providing, among other things, warnings and flood information that are geographically as specific as possible so that all who receive flood warnings will know what to do and, where possible, have enough time to take action. These are not simple tasks, and it will take time to get them absolutely right.

The extreme rainfall alert that was first issued at 16.22 would not have been issued before the Pitt review following the 2007 floods. We witnessed the welcome sight in the Met Office of meteorologists sitting next to hydrologists and being able to predict much more accurately where flooding is likely to occur, and to warn communities accordingly. We are building on that capacity and partnership working to ensure that we get better and better at getting it right. We will not get it right every time, because of the freak nature of some extreme rainfall conditions.

We would all prefer our flood management to focus on preventing extreme rainfall from causing damage to property in the first place. I do not want to play down the impact of flooding, but it is right to point out, as my hon. Friend the Member for St Austell and Newquay did, that more than 3,000 properties in vulnerable areas throughout Cornwall were protected as a result of flood defence schemes. I share his concern about the failure of some flood defences, and it is imperative that, with the Environment Agency, we look at where those failures occurred, learn from them, and provide the right protection in those places as a matter of urgency.

I take the points that my hon. Friends the Members for St Austell and Newquay and for South East Cornwall made about the Bellwin scheme. I may be going above my pay grade, but I represent a constituency that is part of a small unitary authority. My hon. Friends represent constituencies that are part of a relatively large unitary. When my constituency was flooded in 2007, we triggered Bellwin very quickly. Clearly, the matter is a cause for concern that I understand. Bellwin is dealt with by my colleagues in the Department for Communities and Local Government, and the Treasury, but review is important. In the light of changing weather patterns, we must liaise at ministerial level, as the Department is doing, to ensure that Bellwin is not too blunt a tool, and that local circumstances are taken into account. However, that is a matter higher up the governmental tree.

Many of those who were affected have already done a huge amount to get their lives and businesses back in order, which is more evidence of the remarkable resilience of people in that part of the world, and of a thriving big society. The Environment Agency has been doing its bit to help clear up and provide full support for the county council. I pay tribute to the surgeries that were held last month in St Blazey, Mevagissey, Lostwithiel and Pentewan.

The Environment Agency is also working with local people to develop community flood plans in those areas. Part of the work will consider what improvements can be made to flood warnings for those communities. That is not a new concept; it already exists. Fill-in-the-blank toolkits are readily available, and are being taken up in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for St Austell and Newquay. I hope that we can expand the flood forums to communities that have been affected, and to communities that have not been flooded, because those are the difficult ones to reach.

Over the next few years, there will be huge technological advances. We are looking at rolling out opt-out schemes for text and telephone warnings, and there is the possibility one day, if it is not too intrusive, of a cell basis so that an emergency can be flashed to a mobile phone cell area and everyone in the area with a mobile phone receives it. That will not reach everyone, but it is a possibility, and such technologies are coming forward. We want to be at the cutting edge, not just because we want to, but because we must if we are to cope with the changing climate.

Insurance cover, and its future availability, is always a concern for those who have suffered damage from flooding. It is fair to say that the Association of British Insurers was very quick to state at the time that insurers’ first priority was to ensure that every claim was dealt with as quickly as possible. Advice was provided on its website for people who were affected. More generally, at a flood summit that I hosted on 16 September, we agreed that the Government, insurers and other stakeholders would continue to work in partnership towards 2013 when, as my hon. Friend said, the current agreement between insurers and the Government will expire.

Looking forward, we know that the risk of flooding is likely to increase. We also know that the current economic situation is very challenging and that, although the floods budget was protected as far as possible in the recent spending review, there will always be a limit to what national taxpayers can be asked to fund. Currently, the costs fall almost entirely on general taxpayers, and that constrains how much can be done, as well as creating the potential for inequity in the system. Nevertheless, DEFRA expects to spend at least £2.1 billion on flood and coastal erosion management over the next four years, and to deliver better protection to 145,000 households by March 2015.

In future, the Government would like to encourage additional local investment in flood and coastal erosion risk management in return for giving areas at risk a bigger say in the action taken. We want decisions to be made locally and voluntarily on whether and how to contribute to schemes. Government support will, of course, continue to focus on those most at risk and least able to afford to protect themselves. That is important.

These are difficult matters and we must get them right. That is why we are consulting on the national flood and coastal erosion risk management strategy for England, and why it is so important. It will help us make the difficult decisions about what Government funding is used for, and how it should be allocated between the different tasks and risk management authorities. I urge everyone with an interest to have their say.

The events in Cornwall four weeks ago posed a huge challenge to individuals, communities, businesses and organisations. None of us wants that to happen again, and we must learn the lessons. But it would be naive to think that we will never face similar challenges in the future. Such events are consistent with the predictions for climate change, and are likely to occur more frequently. The good news is that the people of Cornwall have shown us again their remarkable resilience and capacity for recovery. That was shown not least in the leadership of the Members of Parliament for the constituencies where the flooding took place.

Question put and agreed to.

Oral Answers to Questions

Lord Benyon Excerpts

Thursday 9th December 2010 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon)]

The countryside provides a wonderful learning environment and many organisations do valuable work. My Department will continue to provide funding for educational access through existing agri-environment agreements and through capital payments under new higher level stewardship—HLS—agreements. We are also investigating ways of encouraging the continued provision of educational access, and of addressing the barriers that currently exist.

[Mr Spencer]

I am very grateful for that answer—I am delighted to hear it. I hope the Minister agrees that my constituents John and Kathy Charles-Jones, who provide access to farms for schoolchildren, do an excellent job of showing the next generation how technology and high levels of animal welfare are playing a big part in food production for the nation.

[Richard Benyon]

I and my ministerial colleagues are passionate about getting more people in this country to understand how our food gets from field to fork. We are impressed with the work that so many farmers, charities and other organisations do. We are listening to representations that several organisations are making to us. We want to see whether we can expand what goes on in the next phase of HLS schemes, to secure the capital payments and to work out ways we can eliminate some of the barriers to encouraging schools to get on to farms. That can include changing health and safety provision.

[Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab)]

3. Which planned flood defence schemes will not proceed as a result of her Department’s planned reduction in expenditure on flood defences.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

5. What discussions she has had with the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills on the roll-out of superfast broadband in rural areas.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon)]

The Secretary of State and I are in regular contact with our ministerial colleagues at the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills and the Department for Culture, Media and Sport on this important matter. As a member of the ministerial group on broadband, I speak regularly with Ministers in those Departments on the key issues, including the rural superfast broadband pilots announced on 21 October and the national broadband strategy “Britain’s Superfast Broadband Future”, published on 6 December.

[Mr Hollobone]

The Kettering borough rural forum, which represents residents in all 22 villages in the borough, has contacted me to say that it is unhappy about slow rural broadband speeds, and about Kettering’s apparent exclusion from the Government’s attempt to tackle the problem and from the 160 locations announced by BT. Will my hon. Friend do all he can to help residents in the rural parts of Kettering borough address the issue?

[Richard Benyon]

I am very keen to help the constituents of my hon. Friend and other hon. Members, particularly in rural areas, who will benefit massively from the very good sum of money that we have announced—£530 million over this spending review period, increasing to £830 million in the two years after that. That will mean that constituents such as his will have the means not just to improve the quality of their lives but to run businesses and employ people. It will change the environment, and I can assure him that the disappointment of his constituents will soon be addressed as we start rolling out the hubs from which superfast broadband will operate. There is an enormous sum of money for a very ambitious project right across government, and I hope he will notice the difference very soon.

[Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)]

When the Minister is in discussions with providers, will he make representations on behalf of people in rural areas who are complaining to me—and, I am sure, to many other hon. Members—that they keep seeing advertisements indicating significant broadband speeds, but that they can very seldom, if ever, get those speeds? Will he ensure that those companies’ advertisements are more accurate?

[Richard Benyon]

It is important that providers are accurate and that the Government give the lead in ensuring that what people are told is within the realms of reality. The first paragraph of the executive summary of “Britain’s Superfast Broadband Future” states:

“Rural and remote areas of the country should benefit from this infrastructure upgrade at the same time as more populated areas, ensuring that an acceptable level of broadband is delivered to those parts of the country that are currently excluded.”

That is our intention. We intend to carry those providers with us and to deliver for the hon. Gentleman’s constituents and others in rural areas.

[Angie Bray (Ealing Central and Acton) (Con)]

6. What her policy is on issuing dog control notices on private property.

--- Later in debate ---

[Peter Aldous (Waveney) (Con)]

11. What recent discussions her Department has had on reform of the common fisheries policy; and if she will make a statement.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon)]

As UK fisheries Minister, I have had discussions with a range of organisations and people about common fisheries policy reform, including discussions with the EU Fisheries Commissioner and other member states’ Ministers during November’s EU Agriculture and Fisheries Council. I have also met representatives of the fishing industry—both the large-scale and under-10-metre sector—MEPs and non-governmental organisations. I plan to have further discussions in pressing our case for radical reform of the CFP.

[Peter Aldous]

I thank the Minister for that reply, and for meeting a delegation of Lowestoft fishermen last week. I wish him well in his negotiations at next week’s Council of Ministers meeting. The future of fishermen and communities all around Britain depends on a successful outcome. Will the Minister confirm that in the review of the CFP, his priorities will include a fair deal for the under-10-metre fleet and the elimination of discards?

[Richard Benyon]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his good wishes for next week’s negotiations, and I confirm that the UK is committed to genuine fundamental reform—to achieving healthy fish stocks, a prosperous fishing industry and a healthy marine environment. Part of that agenda is to ensure that we have regionalised decision making and an end to the top-down failure of the current common fisheries policy, and that we give fishermen a stake in the long-term health of fish stocks. That involves those in the under-10-metre sector; I am deeply mindful of the problems that they have faced in recent years, and I want to give them and the communities that they support a long-term future under a reformed CFP.

[Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP)]

As I represent two fishing ports in Northern Ireland, may I ask the Minister what further progress has been made towards regionalisation?

[Richard Benyon]

I am grateful to the hon. Lady and to other Northern Ireland Members who have been forceful in putting the case for the fishing communities that they represent. I recognise that they, like many other areas of the country, are affected by an industry in crisis. Our immediate attempts will be to secure for them adequate fish stocks to exploit over the coming year. However, I put on record my determination that they should not continue to live from hand to mouth. As someone who has been in business, I do not know how fishermen can deal with a bank manager when they do not know what they will be able to achieve in three, four or five months’ time. I want to give them a longer-term future, in which they can be part of the solution, rather than being constantly browbeaten by an overbearing and multi-layered regulatory system.

[Mr Speaker]

I am extremely grateful to the Minister, but may I remind those on the Treasury Bench that there are a lot of questions to get through, and that a little economy is needed in their answers?

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[Dr Daniel Poulter (Central Suffolk and North Ipswich) (Con)]

14. What recent representations she has received on provision of funding for permissive access routes under higher level stewardship schemes in rural areas.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon)]

About 3,000 current agri-environment agreements support permissive access, contributing around 3% of the public rights of way network. As part of the spending review, we have looked very closely at how best to maximise the funds that we receive from the European Union for higher level stewardship. Funds will continue to be provided for permissive access under existing HLS agreements, and we will also continue to provide capital payments under new HLS agreements.

[Dr Poulter]

As the Minister will know, there are 129 higher level stewardship agreements in Suffolk. They help to provide an excellent link between rural and urban communities, and to interest young people in schools in issues relating to agriculture and food. Given the importance of such schemes in Suffolk, will the Minister agree to meet me, along with Suffolk farmers, to establish how we can develop the schemes further in the county?

[Richard Benyon]

I am always happy to meet my hon. Friend, and farmers in his constituency. We are keen to maximise the use of money from the rural development programme for England. For every pound that we put into biodiversity or environmental works through HLS, we receive £3 from Europe, whereas access is funded entirely through Government spending. That does not mean, however, that there is not an enormous amount that we can to do to encourage the kind of access to which my hon. Friend has referred. We will secure the capital spending, and we will make further provision to secure access in other parts of the country.

[Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab)]

The loss of primitive access from future HLS schemes will have a very detrimental effect on the improvement of schemes under the Countryside and Rights of Way Act 2000, and various sorts of stiles and benches that are erected in the countryside to provide access for people. How is the Minister going to resolve that, and ensure that the countryside remains open to the entire British population?

[Richard Benyon]

I can reassure the hon. Gentleman that people will be able to claim for items such as stiles because they are capital items, as are car parks and the provision of access for disabled people. Those claims can still be made, therefore. The hon. Gentleman is a very strong advocate of HLS, and he and many other Members were worried that we might not be able to protect it under the spending review. We have done, however: we are going to increase it by 83%, but we are focused on reversing the decline in biodiversity and helping environmental works on farms. That is why we have taken the decisions that we have.

[Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)]

15. What assessment she has made of the effects of proposed changes to her Department’s flood defence budget on the level of insurance premiums for homes at risk from flooding.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon)]

DEFRA is working closely with the insurance industry to maximise the availability of flood insurance cover. We are consulting on changes to the way in which Government funding is allocated to flood and coastal erosion risk management projects. That will help safeguard insurance terms by encouraging increased investment beyond levels that the national taxpayer alone can afford.

[Diana Johnson]

The insurance market in Hull has been closed since 2007, and unless people had insurance then, they will not be able to get it now. Moreover, for people who can access insurance, premiums have gone up hugely. What does the Minister have to say to my constituents, as even those who currently have insurance are now very concerned that they will not be able to continue to have it in the future?

[Richard Benyon]

The hon. Lady’s constituents, like mine, have suffered greatly from flooding in the past, and what she says is true: there are excess charges and premiums have risen. We have taken forward, from our very successful flood summit, two important working parties with the insurance industry—one on data sharing, so that information on where money has been spent is made available to insurers, and a second on working with the insurance industry so that following the post-2013 statement of principles, there will be an environment in which insurance is still available. The insurance industry will then be able to gear up for a new environment in which specialist brokers can start to help constituents such as the hon. Lady’s and mine.

[Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con)]

Recognising the challenge of securing insurance in certain parts of the country, I recently met representatives of the Association of British Insurers, and they talked about building design and the fact that electric circuits are at the bottom of buildings rather than in the middle and higher. That is one of the primary reasons why people are out of their homes for months if not years, as opposed to merely needing replacement furniture and so forth. Will the Minister agree to meet the ABI to discuss such building design principles?

[Richard Benyon]

I have met, and do meet, the ABI, and we do talk about such matters. I need do no more than recommend one of the great legends, Mary Dhonau—[Hon. Members: “Maradona?”] No, Mary Dhonau. She runs the National Flood Forum, and her home has frequently been flooded. The last time she was flooded she made no claim because she had taken precisely the precautions that my hon. Friend mentions. I hope that more households will learn from her experience.

[Mary Creagh (Wakefield) (Lab)]

There was a bit of confusion from the Secretary of State earlier about the figure of 145,000. The figures are in DEFRA’s 2009 annual report, and I will happily send the link to the Secretary of State’s office so that she can see the delay that the 27% cut has caused.

The Minister says he is consulting on new flood defence proposals. The new system would remove the Environment Agency’s role in deciding who gets flood defences, and communities would be expected to pay a flood tax in order to receive central Government funding. Will this new system not disadvantage people from poorer parts of the country who cannot afford a new flood tax?

[Richard Benyon]

Oh dear—another own goal, I am afraid. The hon. Lady really must read the consultation documents. She will then see, first, that that is one of Sir Michael Pitt’s recommendations, which she and her predecessor were very keen the new Government should continue to put into effect, and secondly, that payment for outcomes is not a flood tax. It is not compulsory; it is an additionality, and it provides clarity for communities that for too long have failed to get their schemes above the line. The hon. Lady’s point will be very unwelcome if that is her party’s future policy, on its blank sheet of paper.

[Mary Creagh]

One of the key recommendations of the Pitt review was that investment in flood spending should rise above inflation year on year. No matter what dodgy DEFRA maths the Minister tries to put before the House he cannot disguise a 27% cut in flood defence spending. We increased it by 38% over three years—that is the difference. That gave communities and the insurance industry certainty. He has increased the risk that the insurance industry could walk away from universal flood insurance after 2013. He has already mentioned speciality brokers; does he agree that we will need a new statement of principles in 2013 to make sure that flood insurance is universally available?

[Richard Benyon]

We will certainly need a new relationship with the ABI post-2013, but the hon. Lady must be careful with the numbers that she bandies around before the House. The right hon. Member for Leeds Central (Hilary Benn) had spoken of 50% cuts in capital for the Department that she now shadows if Labour had been re-elected, and she cannot now decide that that was a pipe dream and was not mentioned. Of course this issue is important: it is about people’s homes and flooding. Some 5.2 million homes in this country are at some risk of flooding, and the Government have made this issue a priority. That is why we have protected this budget out of all proportion to other budgets in the difficult round that has been forced on us by the previous Government.

[Mr Speaker]

I remind the House that if we are to get down the Order Paper we need short questions and, from Front Benchers, short answers.

--- Later in debate ---

[Priti Patel (Witham) (Con)]

T2. Essex landowners and farmers contribute £1 million annually to the Environment Agency for sea defence and maintenance work, and they have provided information for the Essex shoreline management plan, but they have not been able to access the committees that have made the decisions and finalised that plan. Will the Minister ensure that in future my local farmers will have access to those committees and be fully integrated in the decision making? Will he also pledge to meet representatives in my constituency?

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon)]

I am very concerned by what my hon. Friend says. I know that the Environment Agency contributed £25,000 to the “Managing Coastal Change” project led by the National Farmers Union and the Country Land and Business Association. If they are not being listened to as part of the shoreline management process, they should be. I will take every step to ensure that happens.

[Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab)]

T6. I am a keen hill walker, but the Government are selling off England’s forests and nature reserves. Why are they selling off those natural assets for a quick buck without getting strong assurances on public rights of way?

--- Later in debate ---

[Angie Bray (Ealing Central and Acton) (Con)]

T5. Does the Secretary of State agree that monitoring agencies such as the Environment Agency need sharper teeth, so that they can step in more forcefully when pollution rises to unacceptable levels, particularly in residential areas such as Horn lane in Acton?

[Richard Benyon]

I thought that this subject might come up, because my hon. Friend has a debate on it next week, when I look forward to giving her a more detailed reply. The simple answer is yes, we have to make this clearer. There are no secrets here; the data should be available to local communities and I will do everything I can to support her constituents in this regard.

[Mr Denis MacShane (Rotherham) (Lab)]

My constituent, Lisa Boughton, who lives in Catcliffe, which was flooded in 2007, has this year—not in 2008 or 2009—suddenly been faced by Aviva with a 79% hike in her insurance premium. Will the Department call in Aviva to say that that is an intolerable burden to put on a person of limited means?

[Richard Benyon]

I entirely understand that, because it is an experience that many hon. Members around the country have had. This is why we have to engage with the ABI and have an arrangement that continues after 2013. I assure the right hon. Gentleman that we are working hard with the ABI to try to ensure that the concerns that he has raised are understood.

[Greg Hands (Chelsea and Fulham) (Con)]

T8. The Secretary of State knows that the Thames tideway tunnel scheme has already seen its costs double from £1.8 billion to £3.6 billion, and that it will cause massive construction disruption along the Thames and add £40 per annum to Thames Water customers’ water bills. Can the Minister assure me that the Government have tried to find the best value-for-money solution to sewage discharge in the Thames?

[Richard Benyon]

I can assure my hon. Friend that we continue to challenge the cost assumptions behind that scheme. It is a massive undertaking, and I can see that it will fall on Thames Water’s charge payers, so we want to ensure that if it goes ahead, it goes ahead because it has to, and that the work is done at the best possible price.

[Joan Ruddock (Lewisham, Deptford) (Lab)]

In 2003 my private Member’s Bill became the Household Waste Recycling Act, obliging local authorities to introduce doorstep recycling. Local authorities have until the 31st of this month to comply, and I am glad to say that 94% are in compliance. What does the Minister intend to do about the remaining 6%?

[Richard Benyon]

The right hon. Lady is a great expert in that field, and I pay tribute to her on that issue. It is an absolute priority for our Department, and it is being taken forward as part of the waste review, not only to ensure that the difficult wins are achieved, but to consider how we can continue to encourage local authorities to deal with areas where, on recycling, there is still a long way to go.

[Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con)]

T9. At meetings throughout the dales in recent weeks, constituents have complained that the Yorkshire Dales national park authority is distant and aloof. How will the Minister ensure that in future national park authorities will be more thoughtful towards the communities they seek to represent?

[Richard Benyon]

I am very pleased with the response so far to our review of national park governance. We like national parks and want to support them, but the Government’s firm view at this point is that we should review how they are governed to ensure that they are accountable to local people, and that local people can take part in their decision-making processes. That is the purpose of our review, and I hope that my hon. Friend’s constituents are taking part in it.

[Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)]

Given the huge importance of provenance and traceability in agriculture, is it not time to consider compulsory country of origin food labelling?

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[Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD)]

Much organic matter still finds its way to landfill, where it is not only a hazard but a great waste of sustainable energy. What progress has the Department made in promoting anaerobic digestion as a good way of dealing with such waste?

[Richard Benyon]

Anaerobic digestion offers not just great potential for our society, which is concerned about diverting food waste up the waste hierarchy and away from landfill, but opportunities for communities, farmers and farming businesses to develop schemes that can deal with waste and feed into our energy system. So we are certainly considering that as part of the waste review, which will be announced in early spring. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will take close notice of it.

[Tom Greatrex (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Lab/Co-op)]

May I implore the Minister, when he attends next week’s fisheries discussions in Brussels, to raise with his French and Italian counterparts the issue of the continued fishing of bluefin tuna? What can he do to ensure that we protect that very endangered species?

[Richard Benyon]

I hope the hon. Gentleman will be pleased to hear that we have continued the very strong line that his party, when it was in government, took on bluefin tuna. I am very keen to work with him, because he has great expertise in that field, and I can assure him that we raise the issue frequently at every level to ensure that we continue to push towards the protection of that iconic species.

[Sarah Newton (Truro and Falmouth) (Con)]

The Department is aware of the importance of the port of Falmouth’s plans to create new jobs. When will its application for marine consents be decided?

[Richard Benyon]

I know that that issue is of massive importance to my hon. Friend and her constituents. The decision is imminent; I shall involve her at the earliest stage, and we will work from there. I absolutely understand the importance that the application has for local jobs.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

Fisheries

Lord Benyon Excerpts

Thursday 2nd December 2010 Westminster Hall

[Mr Frank Doran (Aberdeen North) (Lab)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Banff and Buchan (Dr Whiteford) not only on securing the debate, but on giving the shortest opening speech I have ever heard in a fisheries debate, and I have been attending them since 1987. The reason why it was so short is that she is not the Minister.

I want to preface my comments on the industry by making a point that needs to be addressed. The annual fisheries debate used to take place in the Chamber on a Government motion; that was the case long before 1987. I and many other Members assumed that that is what would happen this year, because it is an extremely important industry, as those who represent coastal communities know. I was shocked to be told when I contacted the Minister’s office that “the Department could not organise a debate.” The same words were used in a letter the Minister wrote to the hon. Lady. I was at pains to find out why that was so, particularly when it concerned such an important industry and at such an important time, just a few days before the Brussels summit.

This is not a party political point, because I am sure that the previous Government would have been just as guilty in the same circumstances, but the Government Whips seem to have taken all the departmental debates, such as this one, including the five defence days, and loaded them into the days allocated to the Backbench Business Committee for the business it proposes. It seems that what was intended to extend democracy for Back Benchers and give them more debating days has been hijacked by the Government to offload debates that were previously held in Government time.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon)]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Mr Doran]

I will finish my point, because I know what the Minister is going to say. When I questioned Government Whips on that, I was told that the appropriate number of days had been allocated to the Backbench Business Committee. That might be true in a normal year—we have yet to see a normal year—but this year will not be normal because it will extend into 2012. I will say no more about that, but it is important, particularly to the fishing industry, which in many respects often seems to be a Cinderella industry.

[Richard Benyon]

I will set out the situation from my perspective. I hope that the hon. Gentleman understands that I relish the opportunity to address the House on this important issue and that there is absolutely no inclination on the Government’s part to hide from the debate. There was a debate last week in Backbench Business Committee time on the regulation of independent financial advisers. I think that today’s debate has attracted much more interest from MPs, not only those who represent coastline constituencies, but those who care about our marine environment. I hope that the strength of feeling that the hon. Gentleman has expressed, and which I and other hon. Members will express, will be pointed out to the Committee so that we can get a response.

[Albert Owen (in the Chair)]

Order. Can we get back to the matter of fishing?

--- Later in debate ---

[Andrew George]

Absolutely. My honourable colleague has anticipated the point that I was due to make, which is that that is a very sustainable fishery. Over the years, previous Ministers will have been aware of the work of mackerel hand-liners and those who support their work. It is also a Marine Stewardship Council-certified fishery. Given that, it is acknowledged that it should be taken out of the quota system altogether. I hope that there will be opportunities for the Minister to explore that in the negotiations in which he gets involved. We are talking about people who are engaged in the use of a line rather than a net. It is a selective fishery. It does not involve tremendous power, but just the brawn, generally, of the men—and women occasionally—who are engaged in it to haul their catch aboard. It is a very primitively based fishery.

[Richard Benyon]

May I respond to that point and to the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for South East Cornwall (Sheryll Murray) on hand-line mackerel in the south-west? That is an under-exploited fishery and was considered good currency for swaps in the past. I concede that it was over-extended this year in terms of use of that currency. However, I can assure my hon. Friends that we will look very carefully at and work very closely with hand-line mackerel fishermen in future years to ensure that we know precisely what they think they will need and what is available as a currency swap. We will try to get it done better next year.

[Andrew George]

I am very grateful to the Minister for that intervention and much reassured. He replied to me on 17 November about the issues that I raised on behalf of the industry in Cornwall. I understand that what was undertaken was not done at his discretion, but was undertaken by the Marine Management Organisation, perhaps on his behalf. The point that I think he fully understands now is that it was undertaken without any consultation or negotiation with the mackerel hand-liners themselves. There was no effort at all to engage with them before the decision was taken to reduce their quota—to swap their quota—which put them in a parlous position. That is clearly absurd, given that it is the very type of fishery that we should be trying to encourage, not discourage.

My next point—again, I have given the Minister a note on it—is about protecting the engineless, under-10-metre fleet from having to face the regulations that other fisheries face. We have a very low-impact fishery in the Fal estuary—the Fal oyster fishery—which my honourable colleague the Member for South East Cornwall is well aware of. That is a sailboat-based fishery; no engined boats are engaged in the oyster fishery in the Fal. It is a Truro-based fishery. Travel difficulties have meant that my hon. Friend the Member for Truro and Falmouth (Sarah Newton) is unable to be here, but had she been here, she would have been arguing this case as well. I know that the European Commission will be reviewing the exemptions that have been granted to that fishery and potentially others.

The Minister will be aware of another fishery that is in my constituency—the traditional St Ives Jumbo fishery. Those traditional boats, which have been rebuilt in recent years and are extremely popular in St Ives bay, are a potential source of income. They, too, are engineless, 7-metre vessels, which have a very low impact on their environment. I hope that the Minister will consider very carefully the case that people will be making in that respect.

The Minister will also be aware that excellent work has been going on in the south-west, including Cornwall, with the Finding Sanctuary initiative. The purpose of that is to bring together stakeholders—fishermen and other industries, as well as environmentalists and scientists—to help to identify the potential for candidate marine conservation zones, which will be registered under the Marine and Coastal Access Act 2009. However, a great deal of concern has been expressed to me by stakeholders that there has been insufficient instruction, advice and guidance to those engaged in the stakeholder consultation, in that all the industries that will be affected by the proposed candidate marine conservation zones are in effect adding a number of assumptions whenever they agree to those potential candidate zones. They are being led along the garden path to saying, “Yes, we agree with this, on the assumption that we can carry on doing x, y or z,” whether that be aggregate dredging, towing gear in a particular area in the fishing industry or, in the recreational boating or yachting community, anchoring in a particular area in certain conditions.

Of course, all those assumptions are being accepted and recorded in the process, but there has been insufficient instruction from the Department to guide people in that process. I suspect that confidence in the registration of the marine conservation zones—and indeed the MPAs—will be significantly undermined if and when, further down the track, it becomes clear to stakeholders engaged in the process that not all the assumptions that they have had recorded in the process can be granted when the marine conservation zones are finally designated.

The Minister and I debated this issue during the Committee that considered the Marine and Coastal Access Bill. It was always my concern that stakeholders should be entitled to have a significant say on the management of the zones, as well as on the designation of them. Their designation is important, but it is important to recognise that their management is as well.

I wish to make two broad points on the negotiations that the Minister will go to in a couple of weeks—the December Council. One is on the issue that my honourable colleague the Member for South East Cornwall raised about cod. The overarching point is about the basis of the science from which the proposals for the recommended TACs come. In the case of cod, there has been the tremendous success of the initiative—which was actually industry-led—to close the Trevose grounds off the north coast of Cornwall during the early months of each year, which has been happening for more than four years. We believe—although there is insufficient science to be able to put two and two together, as it were, and to draw conclusions—that, as a result that, there appears to be very significant recruitment of cod around the coast.

The enormous abundance of cod is astonishing, especially for the inshore fleet in our area, and entirely echoes the point that my honourable colleague the Member for South East Cornwall made. For example, my constituent, Chris Bean, who has the Lady Hamilton, which is well known in our area, has had scientists from CEFAS aboard his boat for the past three weeks. They have witnessed the same things that he has; in spite of the fact that he is not targeting cod, three out of every four fish that he catches are cod—landable and of a good size. However, he cannot land them because the quota for cod is absolutely minuscule. As my honourable colleague knows, the British fleet has a tiny fraction of the available quota in area VII, because the other nations seem to take the lion’s share—especially the French.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon)]

It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship today, Mr Owen. I pay tribute to the hon. Member for Banff and Buchan (Dr Whiteford) for securing this debate. She spoke for everyone here when she said that this debate should take place on the Floor of the House in future so that we can give this subject the forum it deserves.

This is an important time for the industry, and I want to put the fishermen themselves at the heart of our considerations. I pay tribute to those who have lost their life or been injured in this dangerous profession. Fishermen work off a dangerous platform in a dangerous place, and too many pay the price for that. Bereaved families and many other parts of the fishing industry are wonderfully supported by organisations such as the Seamen’s Mission and the Royal National Mission to Deep Sea Fishermen. I echo other hon. Members in paying tribute to them and to organisations such as the RNLI and the coastguard for their bravery and courage and for serving our marine environment so well.

We tend to approach this debate with a sense of groundhog day, as we trawl through the same old arguments. There is a general ennui or depression about the way in which we manage the system, but there are glimmers of hope here and there. What I have detected in my time, both as spokesman for my party when in opposition and as Minister, is that there are some reasons to be cheerful, I intend to put all my effort behind those chinks of light to make them wider and clearer as we progress in the months ahead.

We face a very difficult time; let us not pretend otherwise. If I am asked to present in a sentence my vision for this industry and for the marine environment, I would say that we take an ecosystems-based approach, which was referred to in the GLOBE document. Such an approach has sustainability at its heart—sustainability of the marine environment and the ecosystems that we need and value and from which we get so many services, and sustainability for the industry, and the communities that it supports. Members from all parts of the House have spoken movingly about communities in their constituencies which are dependent not just on the, sadly, too few jobs, but the families, the processing industry and all its supporting infrastructure.

When I visited the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for South East Cornwall (Sheryll Murray)—it was the first place that I visited when I was appointed as shadow spokesman—I saw an industry that was surviving. It has had its moments and difficulties, but it has the support of a fish market, merchants, chandlers and many others. If one of them were to go, how viable would be the remainder? That is something that I frequently find as I go round the coast of Britain.

As we embark on the next few weeks, with the December Council and CFP reform, I have to say that I am supported well in this difficult job by some very able officials, who have so much more experience than I of this sometimes Kafkaesque process. There is a great sense of unity across the devolved Governments. If people want an example of cross-party co-operation, they need look no further. We have a Minister from a Conservative-Liberal Democrat coalition Government working with a Minister from the Scottish National party in Scotland, a Sinn Fein Minister in Northern Ireland, and a Labour Minister in Wales. I am determined that we should approach this round with a sense of unity, because it is only by working together and being on the same page that we can achieve what we need to achieve. I am grateful to all of them and to their respective officials for their support.

I will rattle through some of points that were made and try to respond to them in the time remaining. The hon. Member for Banff and Buchan led the way in calling for regionalisation and an end to the top-down management of our fisheries and the common fisheries policy. She finds a ready and supportive audience in me. Earlier this week, I was at the Agriculture and Fisheries Council. In a discussion between all the Ministers and the commissioner, everyone who spoke mentioned the need for regionalisation and an end to the current centralised system. In the same way, people often talk positively about long-term management plans, but the proof of what is said lies in what is done, particularly with the current reform process. I sense that among some of our European partners there is, to quote Hilaire Belloc, a desperate desire to

“always keep a-hold of Nurse

For fear of finding something worse.”

I do not think that anything can be worse than what we have now. We must have a decentralised system, and that is what I will be leading on in the reform process.

The hon. Lady represents the two important ports of Peterhead and Fraserburgh, and my two visits to her constituency have proved to me the importance of the fishing industry there. I value the clear way in which I was briefed about her fishing interests, and she was right—as were other hon. Members—to point out the affront of discards. Discards are first and foremost an affront to fishermen, and they are increasingly an affront to the public and the consumer. I was recently interviewed at Billingsgate market by Hugh Fearnley-Whittingstall, whom I congratulate on leading an important campaign to raise awareness of this issue. His questions surprised me, as he seemed to think that I would somehow be a Minister in a suit who would try to defend the status quo. He was surprised that I out-outraged him with my hyperbole and my opposition to discards.

We must look at where we can succeed. Some schemes have been mentioned today; the hon. Lady mentioned catch quotas, and others have spoken about Project 50%. My hon. Friend the Member for Totnes (Dr Wollaston) raised that issue, and on three occasions, I have heard the commissioner quote it as a shining example of what can be achieved. I intend to build on those important points.

[Zac Goldsmith]

How realistic is it to say that we will move to a system of catch quotas? I have no doubt that the Government are committed to dealing with that problem, but realistically, how likely is it that we will see a change in policy?

[Richard Benyon]

I forget the figures for the English fleet, but in Scotland, there are 17 vessels in a catch quota system. That represents about 20% of that fleet—perhaps not; I cannot remember the exact figure. At the moment, that system is a trial. We tried to persuade the Commission—and we will continue to try—that we must move beyond a trial. We want to get every vessel possible into a catch quota system because, for reasons that I will mention, that is the solution. Fishermen are incentivised to do something that gives them more fish, ends discards and is a bottom-up approach. It makes fishermen part of the solution, and instead of being the battered person at the end of the line being hit by a stick, they are given a carrot to find a solution. I will go on to talk about mackerel, which was mentioned by the hon. Member for Banff and Buchan and others.

My hon. Friend the Member for Argyll and Bute (Mr Reid) echoed the point about decentralisation and I know the importance of nephrops to his constituency and the difficulties that are faced there. He rightly mentioned the difficulties of displacement. When we create a management regime that results in less activity in one area, there is a displacement effect. Too often, we have seen the malign effect of displacement round our coastline, and he is right to raise that issue. However, he sensibly discussed the world in which we live. I would love to debate how we got to this point, but that would be a waste both of my time and of the House’s. We should put all our energy into working with a system that we think we might be able to change. For the first time in my adult life and in the experience of people who have been in the House for many fisheries debates, we find the door open to a level of reform that we must try to achieve. I recognise that that is important.

The hon. Member for Aberdeen North (Mr Doran) is an able chairman of the all-party group, which benefits from his knowledge of, and passion for, the subject. He rightly pointed out the importance of the processing industry. We must remember the jobs at stake and the importance to our food security of keeping the infrastructure that we require on land to support the jobs that we are discussing and get the product to market that our fishermen bring ashore. I think that he is rather depressed about the prospects for CFP reform. That probably comes from years of experience, but I hope that we can work with him.

[Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con)]

My neighbour and hon. Friend the Member for Cleethorpes (Martin Vickers) and I have been in and out of meetings and have not been able to contribute to this debate, but I emphasise that the processing industry is incredibly important to us also. It plays a significant role in the Humber region. Things are all interlinked. It is a huge issue for us also.

--- Later in debate ---

[Richard Benyon]

My hon. Friend is right to raise that point. I am meeting and working with the Food and Drink Federation to ensure that we have a strategy that supports that industry, and I am going with the FDF to see some fish processing companies near his constituency to ensure that we are integrating the needs of the processing industry into our policies.

The hon. Member for Aberdeen North was positive about other aspects. He was right to point out the GLOBE report, which I value. I appreciate his good wishes at a difficult time. People have been commiserating with me on my job, but I am thoroughly enjoying it. Hon. Members sometimes say nice things about me, which is probably a kiss of death in this place, but the issue is not really about anyone in the House; it is about our marine environment and the jobs of people who do dangerous work out at sea. As we go into the December round, I am conscious that a lot of people will be looking on with great fear and trepidation for their futures. It is a great responsibility, but I take it on readily.

Many hon. Members raised marine conservation zones. Several, including my hon. Friend the Member for South East Cornwall, said that fishermen are sceptical and suspicious of the process. Yes, they are, but the point is this. Fishermen come to my office and meet me as I go around the country, saying, “We’re concerned about this.” People from green non-governmental organisations say, “The system is too much in favour of socio-economic activities.” The fact that both groups have those concerns means that we may be getting it just about right. However, I assure the House absolutely that I want to ensure that at every stage, we have a balanced approach and that people have access. The good thing about today’s debate is the feeling that the argument that conservation is on one side and fishermen and socio-economic activities are on the other is weak and old-fashioned. If we can get this right—the projects, although they have not been without difficulties, are proving that we can—it will be to everybody’s advantage. I reassure my hon. Friend the Member for South East Cornwall and everybody who has raised the issue that at every stage right up until designation, we will ensure that everybody has access to the process.

We must remember that when we discuss management of marine conservation zones, we might be trying to manage the sea bed, in which case activities higher up the water column might be perfectly permissible, or we might be trying to protect features at the surface, such as bird life or harbour porpoises, in which case activities on the sea bed might be perfectly permissible. It is a question of working through the suspicion that my hon. Friend mentioned.

I intervened to address the point that my hon. Friend raised about hand-line mackerel. She has raised the issue with me before and is an assiduous campaigner on behalf of the fishing community in her constituency. She also mentioned dredged materials, a matter that is very relevant to Rame head. She has raised it with me before and it is currently under review. The point she makes is absolutely right: we have to get coherence, because that will bring credibility, and it is important that all parties link together to ensure that we have a credible system.

The hon. Member for Tynemouth (Mr Campbell) made important points about his fishing community in North Shields, which I have visited. I will seek to get the best possible deal for fishermen there and around the country, as we face one of the most historically difficult rounds that we have ever faced. He raised a specific point on whiting, which is important. I know that it is a valuable stock for fishermen in his part of the world, as elsewhere. On the “use it or lose it” rule, there is a lack of understanding about what goes on, because the science is underdeveloped and it is assumed that just because a stock is not being caught up to quota, it is not there. We know that in our seas that is not the case, and I intend to make that point clearly.

A number of Members mentioned the interpretation of the science. The Commission makes the point that we have to debate on the basis of sound science, which is absolutely right, and we do and we will. However, there is a different interpretation of science when we talk about maximum sustainable yields. Are we talking about a particular figure or a band of probabilities? I agree with those who say that Europe should set a parameter, an aspiration to move towards MSY and have a sustainable stock by a certain date, and then leave it to regional bodies or even very local bodies, for example in the case of inshore fisheries, to put into effect an overarching plan. That has to be the way forward. That is the way to use science wisely and apply it to what we actually find in our waters, and I am determined to do that.

My hon. Friend the Member for St Ives (Andrew George) has had to leave, so I will address his points directly to him. I do not have time to mention them in detail now, but I think that I can give him some assurance on his three main points. His point about the closure at Trevose Head is absolutely right. Real-time closures can be a good tool in conservation management, and they are fishermen-led. The fishermen I speak with want their sons and grandsons to carry on their profession in the future, and it is only by giving them the tools to make the conservation opportunities that they know are needed that we will get a better and more sustainable marine environment.

The hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) made an important point about nephrops in the Irish sea, which is a matter of particular concern to Northern Ireland’s fishermen. I hope that we can come to some arrangement that gives them a sustainable future for at least the medium term until we see a recovery of that stock. I am working closely with the Department of Agriculture and Rural Development in Northern Ireland and others to ensure that we get the arguments across. It will be one of our priorities as we go into the December round. I take his point about cod and herring. He briefed me in a very focused way recently, and I can assure him that we will take those points forward. The weather is closing in, so I hope that he will be able to get home.

My hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport (Oliver Colvile) spoke about the cluster of science excellence in his constituency. I have benefited from it, experienced it and met a number of scientists from Plymouth. I know how passionate they are about their work and will readily take up the invitations to visit Plymouth and see that work, which have come from several directions. He asked about Natural England and marine conservation zones. I can give him every assurance that I want to see proper systems through the marine conservation zone process, so I can give him assurances on that and on recreational angling. I am an angler. I have been invited to fish for bass in his constituency, or nearby, by one of his constituents and I give him every assurance that I will try to represent the benefits of recreational angling throughout the process of marine conservation.

I am conscious of the time and I want to get on the points that were raised by the hon. Member for Glasgow North East (Mr Bain). First, I send him warm congratulations on his appointment as shadow Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Minister and I look forward to working with him. Long-term management plans are the future and I give him every assurance that I will work towards creating those plans. Of course, that means losing political control, to an extent, and there are some people who think that the December round is the way that it should be, because politicians are holding the quota and can distribute it, which I think gives them a sense of patronage. That sense of patronage is not an attitude that I share and I want to see Europe move away from the rather bizarre antics that we are about to enter into.

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for raising the issue of ocean acidification, which, in terms of our adaptation to climate change, is important. Regarding his question about mackerel, yes, we are being absolutely robust and I will be very happy to brief him in more detail on that issue.

On CFP reform, I have set out quite clearly our determination to work towards regionalisation and integration on a sea-basin basis, as well as integration of the industry. I have not had time to talk about the under-10s today, but I am determined to take forward a reform that sees those vessels getting a bigger slice of the action. However, I will do that in concert with the rest of the sector and I will try to rebuild trust in the industry. In the near future, I will announce some ideas that will be taken to consultation. At the centre of our CFP reform will be an end to discards and movement towards more catch quotas, and I am happy to keep the hon. Gentleman briefed at every stage. In conclusion, I offer him the pledge that we will be making a statement on the results of the December round.

There is much more that I would like to have said, but there is simply not time to give credit to everybody’s contribution today.