18:59 - The House divided: - Ayes: 260 / Noes: 310 - Question accordingly negatived.
19:15 - The House divided: - Ayes: 301 / Noes: 253 - Question accordingly agreed to.
Mary Creagh
I am delighted by my hon. Friend’s mention of the Mersey forest, where 1 million trees were planted in and around her constituency.
How did the Government get this so wrong? Over the summer, the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs rolled up her sleeves and took the axe to her own Department. She cut the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs by 30%—the biggest cut of any spending Department. There are cuts to flood defence schemes, and nature reserves are next on the transfer list. England’s forests were slipped into the Public Bodies Bill in the bonfire of the quangos. However, she was seeking not a bonfire of the quangos, but the power to sell off all England’s forests.
The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Mr James Paice)
If the hon. Lady is so opposed to this Government taking the powers in the Public Bodies Bill, why do the Labour-led Welsh Assembly Government want the same powers?
Mary Creagh
The right hon. Gentleman makes a point about the future—[Interruption.] My question back to him is what is happening to the future of forestry in this country under his Government? If they take the heart out of the Forestry Commission model—take away what is happening in Scotland and Wales—they will effectively destroy the system that has protected the national forests for 100 years.
Mary Creagh
Absolutely; I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that point.
Let us look at the maths. The Forestry Commission costs each of us 30p a year. Our ancient trees, worshipped by our ancestors as a source of food, fuel and shelter, will go in this sale of the century. The Secretary of State wants to finish a task that proved too much even for Mrs Thatcher.
Mary Creagh
The Minister asks how many acres of ancient trees we have. The answer is that he does not know, because I met Forestry Commission officials this morning, and they told me that the mapping tool that the Government are using has excluded sites of special scientific interest. [Interruption.] The Minister should perhaps talk to his staff a little more. I have been talking to a lot of them, and I have not met a single one who supports his plans.
Mary Creagh
My hon. Friend is taking all my lines. How can the Liberal Democrats fight forestry sell-offs in Scotland, yet vote for them here in the Lobby tonight? We can answer that question: they are just doing on the national stage what they have always done on the local stage.
Mr Paice
When the hon. Lady provides the House with quotes, it would be useful if she properly attributed them in the context of the events that they addressed. She referred to the current Chief Secretary to the Treasury, but is she not aware that what he said was in response to the then Scottish Government’s proposals? Is she not aware that we are proposing not 75-year leases, but 150-year leases? Most importantly, is she not aware that under the Scottish national land use scheme—[Interruption.]
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)
Order. Minister, you must be brief. I think we have got the point.
Madam Deputy Speaker
Minister, you will resume your seat now. Thank you. I am on my feet and I have already said that interventions must be brief. That applies to everyone, including Front-Bench Members. This is a very important debate and many Members wish to contribute to it.
The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Mrs Caroline Spelman)
I beg to move an amendment, to leave out from “House” to the end of the Question and add:
“deplores the actions of the previous administration in selling off 25,000 acres of public forestry estate with wholly inadequate protections; notes that the previous administration sought to go even further in finding ways to exploit the forestry estate for commercial gain as recently as 2009; welcomes the consultation proposals to guarantee the future protection of heritage forests by offering them charitable trust status; supports the consultation proposals for robust access and public benefit conditions that will be put in place through lease conditions, including access rights for cyclists and horse-riders; believes the leasehold conditions regarding biodiversity and wildlife conservation will safeguard significant important environmental benefits; sees these proposals as important in resolving the conflict of interest whereby the Forestry Commission is the regulator of the timber sector whilst being the largest operator in the England timber market; considers that debate on the future of the forest estate ought to be conducted on the basis of the facts of the Government’s proposals; and believes that under these proposals people will continue to enjoy the access and benefits they currently have from the woodlands of England.”
Clearly, the hon. Member for Wakefield (Mary Creagh) has not read our consultation document. For example, sites of special scientific interest are included, and there were many other inaccuracies in her speech. At least we now have an opportunity to nail some of myths that have been peddled on this issue. Of course it is an important function of Her Majesty’s Opposition to hold the Government to account, but they should do so on the basis of facts, not fiction. Let us start, then, with some plain facts about our proposals.
First, we are consulting on proposals to create a new heritage forest status, whereby our most precious national assets are given over to charitable trusts, giving them far greater protection and financial security than they have ever had. Secondly, we propose to uprate massively protections for public access and other public benefits by replacing the freehold sales that took place under the last Government and moving instead to leaseholds that provide better protection for access and other public benefits.
Mrs Spelman
I will give way, but I have listened to a lot of myths, so let me set the record straight first.
Thirdly, we propose to give community groups and civic organisations the opportunity to own or manage their local forests if they wish—and why should they not have this opportunity? Fourthly, we are opening up the commercial functions of the Forestry Commission to other operators on a leasehold basis so that their commercial potential is realised alongside the need to protect public benefits.
Mrs Spelman
I will give way in a minute.
Fifthly, we are refocusing the work of the Forestry Commission so that rather than devoting expertise and resources to commercial activities that should not be performed by Government, it can focus on conducting research on combating the challenges of new tree diseases, maintaining and enforcing access rights, providing expert advice, giving grants, and discharging its duty as a regulator.
Angela Smith
Will the right hon. Lady add to that list of facts an agreement on the part of the Government to guarantee the current permissive access provisions granted by the Forestry Commission on its lands?
Mrs Spelman
Permissive rights apply to 2,000 hectares of the public forest estate, which itself accounts for 18% of the woodland cover of the country.
Hugh Bayley
Talking of facts, I have here a parliamentary answer given to me by a former forests Minister in 1996. It records that under the previous Conservative Government 209,956 hectares of Forestry Commission land were sold. What proportion of that retained public access, what proportion went to community trusts, and what proportion of the new sales will go to such trusts?
Mrs Spelman
In 1996 I was not a Member of Parliament. I am dealing with a new policy, and that, it seems, is what Opposition Members are opposing.
What is most saddening about the debate is that rather than setting out her reasons for opposing our measures, the hon. Member for Wakefield insisted on sowing further misinformation and fear about what we are consulting on.
Mrs Spelman
I will give way in a minute.
The hon. Lady claimed that we were planning to sell the forests for short-term gain. In fact, we are proposing to end the last Government’s policy of selling land and replace it with a leasing policy, specifically to secure access to rights for all—including horse riders, cyclists and other recreational users. The hon. Lady claimed that that was environmental vandalism. In fact, we are introducing more environmental safeguards than existed before. We are providing a once-in-a-generation opportunity to accelerate the recovery of plantations on ancient woodland sites, and enforcing replanting in other woodlands.
Mrs Spelman
In a minute.
The Forestry Commission was previously commended for the restoration of ancient woodland sites. It pledged to restore 20,000 hectares of plantations on such sites; it has managed to restore just 2,000 hectares. I have a greater ambition in regard to the restoration and enhancement of biodiversity than the last Government ever entertained.
Mr Sheerman
The right hon. Lady produced some very well-crafted words in an earlier paragraph. She referred to an “opportunity” to acquire land. If there is a competition between a private buyer and a community interest, will preference be given to the community buyer, or will it all be decided on the basis of price?
Mrs Spelman
Oh, dear: yet another Opposition Member has not actually read the consultation document, which states explicitly that the community will be given preference. Of course people must be given preference when it comes to the woodlands near which they live.
Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)
Is it not clear from the demeanour of Opposition Members that this is an Opposition knockabout day? Will my right hon. Friend confirm that there will be a three-month consultation period? May we hope that during those three months Ministers will be prepared to listen to serious representations from people who have read the consultation paper and will respond on the basis of facts rather than Opposition knockabout myths?
Mrs Spelman
As always, my hon. Friend makes a sensible intervention, pointing out that we are still in the first week of a 12-week consultation. To be kind to Labour Members, a lot of their questions arise from reading media reports, and they would do well to read the consultation document.
The hon. Member for Wakefield claims that people are going to turn up at their local woods only to find them locked up and gated off. The case to which her party leader has consistently referred—that of Rigg wood—has also been mentioned in this debate, but in fact that wood was put up for sale by her Government in April 2010. So perhaps she would like to go to Grizedale to explain to the people of Rigg wood what happened as a result of what her Government did. We, on the other hand, will be guaranteeing access and public benefit rights through the terms of the leases.
John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab)
I believe that many people have read the consultation document and have understood the Government’s proposal. Taking the Government at face value on this consultation, if a vast majority of people oppose this proposal, will the Government accede to their wishes?
Mrs Spelman
I have made it very clear that this is a genuine consultation. It is written in an open manner and does not contain leading questions. It invites the hon. Gentleman’s community—his local groups and community groups—to have, for the first time, an opportunity to be involved in the ownership of the woodlands. I suggest that he talks to them about that.
Geoffrey Clifton-Brown
Will my right hon. Friend give a guarantee this afternoon that any sale or lease will have cast-iron legal safeguards for all existing rights of way? Will she go further than that by publishing what those rights of way are before a lease or sale takes place, so that local groups will know for evermore what rights they have over their forests?
Mrs Spelman
I am very happy to give my hon. Friend that assurance, because we live in an age of transparency and that is what community groups have every right to expect.
Andrew George (St Ives) (LD)
Further to the point about a consultation, would my right hon. Friend care to reassure the House that the Public Bodies Bill seeks to establish enabling powers, rather than duties, and that that will fundamentally enshrine the opportunities proposed in the consultation, not force things through?
Mrs Spelman
I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention, because it is important to note that when we published the consultation document on 27 January it was accompanied by a written ministerial statement. If Members would like to read it in conjunction with the consultation document, they will find an assurance on this point. We will introduce a general duty for Ministers
“to have regard to the maintenance of public benefits when exercising”
the forestry-related powers and the powers in the Public Bodies Bill. [Interruption.] I am sure that Labour Members would be interested to know what those additional powers of protection are, as they have been making a lot of noise about this.
Secondly, the statement mentions
“exempting the most iconic heritage forests from the full range of options so that”
they
“could only be transferred to a charitable organisation or remain in public ownership”. —[Official Report, 27 January 2011; Vol. 522, c. 17WS.]
That is far more protection than currently exists. If the Labour party would stop holding up the business in the other place, we might get those amendments on the statute book.
Imagine my surprise, then, when I read a document—“Operational Efficiency Programme: Asset Portfolio”, which was published by the previous Government just months before the election—and discovered, on page 54, an explicit reference to the case for the “long-term lease” of the public forestry estate. What about this document—the “Operational Efficiency Programme: final report”? It states clearly that “greater commercial benefit” could be obtained from the public forest estate. And what about this document—“A Strategy for England’s Trees, Woods and Forests”—published by none other than the right hon. Member for South Shields (David Miliband) when he was the Environment Secretary? It makes the case for local communities actively participating in the ownership and management of the public forest estate. Does that not lay completely bare the hypocrisy of the position now being taken by the Opposition? Their synthetic outrage cannot disguise the fact that they already had the public forest estate well and truly in their sights, so let us have no more of this self-righteous indignation.
Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab)
Will the right hon. Lady acknowledge that those options were ruled out of consideration and dismissed? They were dismissed for two very good reasons—first, because they did not add up economically or against cost-benefit analysis, and secondly, because they would not have been accepted by the great British public.
Mrs Spelman
And the hon. Gentleman’s party was not accepted by the great British public as being fit to govern this country for the time being.
Tim Farron
Taking my right hon. Friend back to Rigg wood and giving reassurance to local populations, our experience with the sale of Rigg wood makes us extremely nervous about the lack of clarity about whether forests within national parks such as the Lake District count as heritage woodland. Will she agree that national park woodlands should all be considered as heritage, and should not be leased or sold?
Mrs Spelman
The consultation document sets out different categories of forest and woodland, because the public forest estate is very diverse. The Forestry Commission has published a set of criteria in relation to sales. There is a consultation and I suggest that the hon. Gentleman should make representations as part of that consultation about the category he wants included under the definition of heritage.
Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD)
As the right hon. Lady will know, I have been very disappointed that some 100,000 acres is not covered by the consultation that started last Thursday. Will she guarantee for my constituents that the land for sale or lease in that 100,000 acres will be subject to absolute guarantees on protecting and enhancing biodiversity, on maintaining, protecting and improving public access for recreation and leisure, on ensuring the continued and increasing role of woodlands in climate change mitigation—
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)
Order. Goodness me. I would like Members to make their interventions brief, and not take the opportunity of an intervention to make their speech. I call the Secretary of State.
Mrs Spelman
Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I can assure the hon. Member for Wells (Tessa Munt) that there are statutory requirements for biodiversity. Planned sales under the spending review—plans that are published—will have greater protection than was afforded under the previous Government. Our objective in the amendment to the Public Bodies Bill is to make sure that we increase protection for access and other public benefits.
Sir Paul Beresford (Mole Valley) (Con)
Is my right hon. Friend aware that a similar approach to hers on commercial forests has been extremely successful in New Zealand? The huge Kaingaroa forest—717,000 acres—is now out of Government hands, the land belongs to the Maoris and commercial organisations are doing the trees, with enhanced biodiversity.
Mrs Spelman
My hon. Friend’s helpful intervention gives me the opportunity to advise Labour Members that, while the hon. Member for Wakefield made selective choices of countries that have explored other models of ownership and management that involve their local communities, the largest worked examples in the consultation document pertain to Queensland and to New Zealand.
Mrs Spelman
I would like to make progress.
Now we have some of the facts on the record, perhaps we can have a rather more honest debate about the consultation. Let us recall why the Forestry Commission came about. It was established after the first world war to reduce our reliance on imported timber. Timber was vital—for example, as pit props—at a time when state ownership was the orthodoxy. It was felt that state supply of timber was essential. At the time, timber covered just 5% of the land under the public forest estate, and even over the long period in which the Forestry Commission has been in operation, that has increased to only 8%.
Ninety years later, things have changed. The Forestry Commission still has a role of supplying timber to industry, but the reality is that it accounts for less than 5% of the timber used in England. To be clear, the state is running timber supplies, yet 95% of the timber used is from outside England. That cannot be sustainable.
On top of that, the public forest estate in England operated at a net loss of £16 million last year. If we are to carry on maintaining our forests as we currently do—and in fact improve them, which is what we want to do, so that they have greater biodiversity and environmental value—we need to think about better ways of doing this and invite other organisations to come in and look at how we can put it on a better footing. That, frankly, is no bad thing, not least because the lease terms will secure access and benefits. Does it really have to be the state’s role to sell Christmas trees? I know that the Opposition have taken a lurch to the left, but are they really suggesting that supplying Christmas trees, hosting music concerts and running log cabins should be national industries?
Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con)
Public consultations under the Labour Government used to be a complete and utter sham. Can my right hon. Friend give us an assurance that, if the majority of respondents to the consultation express concerns about the policy, she will listen?
Mrs Spelman
Of course I can give my hon. Friend that assurance. I was very frustrated during 13 years of opposition by the sham nature of Government consultations. Let us not forget that we are talking about less than 18% of England’s woodland cover. Members will know that the vast majority of our woodlands are not in state ownership, but are still offering outstanding recreational and environmental value. Some are community woodlands. Some are held by organisations such as the National Trust. Some are held by charities. [Interruption.] And yes, many are held by individuals, from farmers to philanthropists. In my view, Opposition scaremongering has been such that they owe a great many of those people an apology for characterising them as being so disinterested in the public benefit. I can only say that I am glad that I am not so cynical about society; it must be a very miserable approach to life.
Stephen Gilbert (St Austell and Newquay) (LD)
Does my right hon. Friend accept that the concern in all parts of the House and in all parts of the country is real? Will she acknowledge that it is genuine concern? Will she agree to meet with me and other Liberal Democrat Members to talk about those concerns?
Mrs Spelman
The concern has in large part been whipped up on the back of ludicrous speculation in the media. I am confident that, when our constituents have the opportunity to read the consultation document, we will have a much more meaningful discussion about the best way to protect our heritage, woodlands and forest, but of course I would be happy to meet the hon. Gentleman.
Some of the woodlands that we are discussing will be viable and some will not, but I can give the House this assurance: there will be no change in the status of woodland sites unless we are convinced that the access right and public benefits have been protected, and that those wanting to own or manage have the ability to do so. We will not accept second best on that.
Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab)
The Secretary of State said that there would be no transfer of woodland unless the protections that she has just mentioned can be put in place. Is she aware that not an hour ago, in Committee Room 18, Simon Hodgson, chief executive of the Forestry Commission, advised the all-party parliamentary conservation and wildlife group that it would not be possible to insist that the same management regime conducted by the Forestry Commission to protect biodiversity would be passed on to any new owner?
Mrs Spelman
Simon Hodgson is not the chief executive of the Forestry Commission, he is wrong and his fears are misplaced.
The difference in expressions of interest is perfectly logical because of the diversity in our woodland. There is no one-size-fits-all approach. We will look at what works best for each individual site. Our mixed model approach considers what works best for the different woodlands and how we can apply it in a way that gives greater public benefit.
Our proposals will mean that the nationally important heritage forests will continue to be managed for the benefit of the nation. By pursuing charitable ownership for our most valued heritage sites—for example, the New Forest and the Forest of Dean—the Government are making it clear that they are not for sale. They are secure for future generations to enjoy, and we will give that force of law with amendments to the Public Bodies Bill.
Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)
I was interested to hear that my right hon. Friend said that no organisation would be allowed to take over one of those forests unless it was capable of running it. She has heard already the figure of £2.9 million, which is the deficit cost to the Forestry Commission from running the New Forest. What sort of charity would be able to shoulder that deficit?
Mrs Spelman
I can give my hon. Friend the same assurance as I have given the National Trust, the Woodland Trust and any new trust that would like to manage our heritage forests for us: we do not expect them to do it for nothing. Let us look at the model of British Waterways. Our canal network is to be moved into the hands of a mutual trust. Obviously, the Government will continue providing running costs to that trust because we understand that it cannot manage the network for nothing.
Mr Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con)
The public care about one thing. As a result of these plans, will public access be increased or reduced?
Mrs Spelman
I think I have said this, but for the avoidance of doubt, public access and other public benefits will be improved and enhanced as a result of the proposals that we set out in our consultation document.
Having exposed the fact that the previous Government indeed looked at disposal of the public forest estate, I would like the Opposition to hear—[Interruption.] I would like them all to listen. That would be a start. I would like them to hear clearly why it is important to give the opportunity for the heritage forests to pass into the hands of charitable trusts. What we have seen from the evidence of documents from the previous Government is that the forests run the risk of successive Governments continually coming back to the question of how they should be owned and managed. Putting them safely in the hands of charitable trusts, as we propose to do, will mean that they will continue to be managed for the benefit of the nation. Their enhanced status in the hands of charitable trusts will put them beyond the reach of Whitehall politics once and for all.
Sir Peter Soulsby (Leicester South) (Lab)
In practice, would not trusts and charitable organisations be absolutely crazy to take on the burden of the New forest, for example? How could they possibly expect to have the fundraising capacity to meet the ongoing costs of managing it appropriately, particularly given the Government’s expectation, clearly stated in their consultation paper, that such gifts to those organisations should move towards self-reliance? They would be crazy to take that on in such circumstances.
Mrs Spelman
The hon. Gentleman clearly was not listening to the question asked by my hon. Friend the Member for New Forest East (Dr Lewis). We have made it clear that we would not expect charitable trusts to take these on without the running costs, so the hon. Gentleman’s fear is unfounded. Some smaller, local areas of woodland might fall into heritage status, but for those that do not, we are consulting on whether to offer them to local community groups or charities to take over first and foremost. If no local groups or charities want to take on the leasehold and no suitable buyer with a credible access and environmental protection plan comes forward, the woodland will simply remain in public ownership.
As I have said, for sites that are predominantly commercial in nature, we propose offering long leases with conditions attached. To be clear, there will be no one-size-fits-all approach, no land grabs and no fire sale. Instead, there will be a thoughtful, detailed, long-term programme of reviewing the estate, potentially over 10 years. There will be no rush; it is more important to get this right. We will look at how to improve the rate of recovery of plantations on ancient woodland sites, thereby enhancing biodiversity.
We will look at how the Forestry Commission can work with communities to help them to bid for local woodlands and at how we can actively improve access rights. I am thinking in particular of how we can access resource improvements for people with disabilities. We will look at how we can enable groups who run woodlands to draw down environmental grants in a way that the Forestry Commission currently cannot.
Those are all things that the Forestry Commission, with its expertise and dedication, is perfectly well placed to do. It is where it will really add value. If Members were to ask someone from the Forestry Commission whether they would rather be working with communities to help in the recovery of ancient woodland sites, or shrink-wrapping Christmas trees, what do they think they would say?
Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab)
Even if community groups could afford to purchase woodland, why should they if it is already in public ownership? It is rather like a thief stealing a car and then offering to sell it back.
Mrs Spelman
As I have tried to point out, and as evidenced in the documents prepared by the previous Government, the fact of the matter is that as long as there are no opportunities for communities in respect of the public forest estate, there is a risk in Whitehall politics. The point about giving the community that lives nearest the forest that opportunity is that they are the most likely to protect it in perpetuity.
This is a really exciting opportunity for our woodlands. We share completely the desire of those who love to walk, cycle, ride, kayak or go ape in our woodlands. I have children and know what a lifeline woodlands are in the long summer holidays. I am certainly not going to deny others the respite that those woodlands gave me, not now and not for future generations. I want to see whether we can improve on the status quo. I want many people to be engaged in the consultation, and I mean genuinely engaged by the facts, not the fiction. This is an opportunity to do things better. If access rights, public benefits and environmental protections are not the same or better, we will not make any changes. I believe that they can be better, that they should be better and that the consultation points the way to making them better.
Huw Irranca-Davies
A second start. Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker.
When I was in the privileged position of being the Minister for Marine and Natural Environment at the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, one thing stood out about DEFRA: all the staff, agencies, green organisations and third sector organisations believed that they were on a mission in terms of the natural environment. We created national parks, protected wildlife, tackled wildlife crime, worked internationally to protect biodiversity and we increased access to the countryside and the quality of our uplands and seas. We also looked after the forests and promoted more woodland coverage, making steady strides to increase our poor showing among European nations.
I do not honestly believe that anybody from DEFRA, the Forestry Commission, Natural England or a host of other organisations, whose staff deeply care emotionally and intellectually about our woodlands and our natural environment, genuinely supports the policy. I do not believe that the Minister’s heart is in it; that might be the same for the Secretary of State, truth be told. I am sure that the Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, the hon. Member for Newbury (Richard Benyon) does not support it.
Interestingly, however, the hon. Gentleman does not have a say. He has most of my old responsibilities as a Minister for the environment, but with one hugely noticeable exception: forestry. Why? He still covers, as I did, everything else in the natural environment, but forestry has disappeared from the environment Minister’s remit. That is no slur on his abilities, because he is no fool, but it is telling that forestry has gone from the environment Minister’s portfolio. The message is quite simple: the forests and woodland, from the inception of this Government, were downgraded in importance; they were no longer part of the natural environment brief.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon)
I am very grateful to my predecessor for giving way. There is a very good reason why I do not have responsibility for forestry: I have some personal interests. I am happy to declare an interest now. My local village of Beenham had a small piece of Forestry Commission land in which my children and I bought small shares with the village as part of a community project. It is an absolute model, which we are trying to follow under the consultation before us.
Huw Irranca-Davies
That is a very useful clarification, which I accept.
The former Secretary of State, my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds Central (Hilary Benn), who is now shadow Leader of the House, was always clear about the Forestry Commission. He and generations of senior Ministers with the same responsibility held jealously to public ownership of the forest estate, because that was in the interests of the British people. Why? There are 13 million tonnes of carbon stored in the trees, 22 million tonnes in the ground and more than 100 million day visitors every year. Public access is protected under the Countryside and Rights of Way Act 2000, and the forest estate is the largest provider of green space around cities, including regeneration and growth areas such as Merseyside, Manchester and the Thames Gateway, with 3,500 hectares established over the 10 years to 2009 and more potential to expand that green infrastructure. Even then, only 10% of the population—notably, in disadvantaged areas—have access to any woodland within 500 metres of home. We are still way below the EU average.
The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Mr James Paice)
A lot of issues have been raised in the debate, and I intend to respond to as many as possible. I undertake to write to hon. Members who have asked specific questions if I do not have time to answer them all.
We have heard speculation about all sorts of risks to aspects of forests if our proposals go ahead. I hope in the next few minutes to be able to debunk most of that nonsense. Those risks have been invented for totally spurious reasons. I stress that this is a consultation, and that it will last for the full 12 weeks, as is the convention. During it, we will listen to many of the organisations referred to this evening that have an interest in the matter, and I will personally discuss it with them.
We have repeatedly stated that existing public benefits will be protected in any transaction. I shall return to that point later. I also emphasise that the programme that we propose will take 10 years. It is not, as one Member suggested, a fire sale; it is a long and transitional but dramatic change in the ownership and management of Britain’s farms and woodlands. If we are not satisfied with any offer that comes forward, there will be no deal on the forest in question.
I am afraid that the hon. Member for Wakefield (Mary Creagh) demonstrated a considerable lack of true knowledge. [Interruption.] If Labour Members wait, they will hear the reality. She asserted that there was no information available about the area of ancient woodlands involved—it is 53,000 hectares, for her information—and, contrary to what she said, SSSIs are included in the mapping process. She also went on about Labour having sold only a net 4,000 hectares, but the fact is that it got rid of 9,000 hectares without adequate protection for public benefits.
Mr Paice
On the issue of—[Hon. Members: “Give way!”] No, I am not going to give way.
On the issue of funding, the reality is open for us to see in the Forestry Commission’s accounts. It costs £17 million a year to run the Forest Enterprise in England, excluding research and regulatory costs.
Mr Paice
No.
We get just a £1 million surplus from commercial logging activity. That is one of the drivers of the change. The commercial timber sector tells us that if it could have access to our commercial forests, not the recreational ones, it could do better and would return the improvement to us through the lease.
Barry Gardiner
On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I tabled a parliamentary question for named day answer on 31 January, seeking to elicit information from the Minister. My office phoned the Department today only to be told that it was waiting for the Minister to—
Mr Speaker
Order. That is not a point of order for the Chair, and it is not a matter to be dealt with now.
Mr Paice
Somebody referred to the opportunity for wind farms, and we have just heard some more.
A number of Members referred to people’s rights, and I wish to spend a few moments explaining where we are on access. Permissive rights have been mentioned, and I have to stress that very little of the forest estate carries such rights. I suspect that Members are confusing them with dedicated rights under the Countryside and Rights of Way Act 2000. Some 2,000 hectares of land carries permissive rights, and that is all land that is held on 999-year leases. Of the land that we actually own, 90% has dedicated access, which cannot be extinguished. Indeed before transfer, we could and would enhance that provision to cover any forms of access not already covered by it.
The hon. Member for Leicester South (Sir Peter Soulsby) suggested that the Government are weakening the Forestry Commission, but nothing could be further from the truth.
Mr Paice
I am not giving way to the right hon. Gentleman because he has only just come into the Chamber.
The Forestry Commission will have its role altered over time, as this period transpires. We want it to concentrate on regulation, advice and research, and on promoting the wider planting of trees. Let us not forget that the under the last five years of the Labour Government, tree planting in this country fell by 60%.
A number of hon. Members referred to the Forest Stewardship Council. I can assure the House—I am happy to give this guarantee—that the council’s certification scheme will remain a condition if we transfer any forests that are currently subject to it, as they all are.
My hon. Friend the Member for Hexham (Guy Opperman) understandably wanted assurances and called the issue of access “a deal-breaker”. I can assure him—I promise him—that access as it currently exists will be guaranteed. I cannot make it any clearer than that.
Mr Steve Brine (Winchester) (Con)
Access is the key point in the hundreds of communications that I have received. Does the Minister agree that over the course of the consultation, the challenge for Ministers is to make the case on access to the hundreds and thousands of people who are e-mailing hon. Members?
Mr Paice
I cannot say it more clearly than I just did. We will guarantee existing rights of access on any land that is moved away from its current operation.
My hon. Friend the Member for Hexham also rightly referred to jobs in his area—specifically to those at Egger—as did the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell). I do not often agree with the latter politically, but I respect his passionate belief in the interests of the working people of this country. I can assure my hon. Friend and the hon. Gentleman that the Government care about those jobs too. The announcement of job losses today is extremely sad and distressing, and we understand and sympathise with those who might lose their jobs, but that was not the result of our consultation.
Mr Paice
There will be lots of bids for heritage forest status. The criteria by which they will be judged are laid down in the consultation document. I fully recognise that Cannock chase has major attributes in that respect, as have other forests, but I am not at this stage going to start listing every single one.
Mr Paice
No—I am not giving way anymore.
Finally, on jobs, I want to make this point. The Government believe that any commercial undertaking that leases parts of our forests for commercial purposes will want to increase commercial and economic activity. That is the best way to encourage job creation. People will not take forests on just to shut the gate—they would be unable to do so even if they wanted to—and leave it there; they will want to run that area as a commercial, job-creating business.
This debate was based on Opposition claims that range, frankly, from the spurious to the absurd. Not only do the Government not intend, as the Opposition motion suggests, to sell 100% of the forest estate; we could not do so, because we do not even own 58,000 hectares of it. The actual figures are in the document.
The Secretary of State and I have repeatedly stressed—
Ms Rosie Winterton (Doncaster Central) (Lab)
claimed to move the closure (Standing Order No. 36).
Question put forthwith, That the Question be now put.
Question agreed to.
Question put accordingly, (Standing Order No. 31(2)), That the original words stand part of the Question.