Public Forest Estate (England)

Peter Soulsby Excerpts

Wednesday 2nd February 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mrs Spelman]

I think I have said this, but for the avoidance of doubt, public access and other public benefits will be improved and enhanced as a result of the proposals that we set out in our consultation document.

Having exposed the fact that the previous Government indeed looked at disposal of the public forest estate, I would like the Opposition to hear—[Interruption.] I would like them all to listen. That would be a start. I would like them to hear clearly why it is important to give the opportunity for the heritage forests to pass into the hands of charitable trusts. What we have seen from the evidence of documents from the previous Government is that the forests run the risk of successive Governments continually coming back to the question of how they should be owned and managed. Putting them safely in the hands of charitable trusts, as we propose to do, will mean that they will continue to be managed for the benefit of the nation. Their enhanced status in the hands of charitable trusts will put them beyond the reach of Whitehall politics once and for all.

[Sir Peter Soulsby (Leicester South) (Lab)]

In practice, would not trusts and charitable organisations be absolutely crazy to take on the burden of the New forest, for example? How could they possibly expect to have the fundraising capacity to meet the ongoing costs of managing it appropriately, particularly given the Government’s expectation, clearly stated in their consultation paper, that such gifts to those organisations should move towards self-reliance? They would be crazy to take that on in such circumstances.

[Mrs Spelman]

The hon. Gentleman clearly was not listening to the question asked by my hon. Friend the Member for New Forest East (Dr Lewis). We have made it clear that we would not expect charitable trusts to take these on without the running costs, so the hon. Gentleman’s fear is unfounded. Some smaller, local areas of woodland might fall into heritage status, but for those that do not, we are consulting on whether to offer them to local community groups or charities to take over first and foremost. If no local groups or charities want to take on the leasehold and no suitable buyer with a credible access and environmental protection plan comes forward, the woodland will simply remain in public ownership.

As I have said, for sites that are predominantly commercial in nature, we propose offering long leases with conditions attached. To be clear, there will be no one-size-fits-all approach, no land grabs and no fire sale. Instead, there will be a thoughtful, detailed, long-term programme of reviewing the estate, potentially over 10 years. There will be no rush; it is more important to get this right. We will look at how to improve the rate of recovery of plantations on ancient woodland sites, thereby enhancing biodiversity.

We will look at how the Forestry Commission can work with communities to help them to bid for local woodlands and at how we can actively improve access rights. I am thinking in particular of how we can access resource improvements for people with disabilities. We will look at how we can enable groups who run woodlands to draw down environmental grants in a way that the Forestry Commission currently cannot.

Those are all things that the Forestry Commission, with its expertise and dedication, is perfectly well placed to do. It is where it will really add value. If Members were to ask someone from the Forestry Commission whether they would rather be working with communities to help in the recovery of ancient woodland sites, or shrink-wrapping Christmas trees, what do they think they would say?

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[Miss McIntosh]

I would put that question directly to the Minister, as I have done before. I want an assurance that the Pickering project, if it is successful, will be the forerunner of many similar projects in areas such as mine across the country. I want an assurance today that the trees will be planted and that the investment will be made. The hon. Gentleman prompts the question of why we should rely on the state to make that investment. We have moved a long way from the previous Government’s mistake of selling off the national treasure of Rigg wood in the Lake district without guarantees of access, the enjoyment of benefits and the continued biodiversity for which we have called.

I should like assurances on the economics, including what the gross receipts will be, and on continuing access. If, as the Woodland Trust states, ownership is not the key, I should like to know what guarantees there can be about how management and commercial interests will fund the commercial forests. In the case of heritage forests, I may be being very simple, but I should like to know how the Government are going to fund investment in the charitable funds that will run those forests.

[Sir Peter Soulsby]

The hon. Lady has spoken about some of the public benefits delivered by the Forestry Commission, particularly with regard to flooding in her constituency. Does she seriously think that there is any prospect at all of any private operator being prepared to give guarantees that it will deliver the same public benefits, on flooding or other matters, that the Forestry Commission currently can?

[Miss McIntosh]

I take great heart from what the Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, my hon. Friend the Member for Newbury (Richard Benyon), said. There is a large private estate in the heart of Thirsk, Malton and Filey that makes many investments for the public good and allows access. My concern is that I do not know the status of my area’s forests, so I do not know whether I should be arguing for heritage protection or another type of protection, but I want to keep an open mind on the question of ownership.

I end with a plea to the Minister. If the consultation is to be worth anything, the Government must listen to, and act on, the tone and content of the responses.

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[Sir Peter Soulsby (Leicester South) (Lab)]

The Forestry Commission is a British success story. I say that deliberately, because although we are talking about England’s forests, as my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh North and Leith (Mark Lazarowicz) reminded us, the Forestry Commission operates throughout the United Kingdom, and weakening it, as the Government are doing in the measures before us, will have an impact throughout the UK.

The Forestry Commission, as we were also reminded, was set up in 1919, and its core business originally was the production of pit props. Those days are long gone, however, as are the days when it planted insensitive and destructive plantations of parade ground conifers that marched across our hillsides.

Over recent years, the commission has been at the forefront of rural protection. My hon. Friend the Member for Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies) and several other hon. Members drew attention to its work on the stewardship of the natural environment, on which it has set an example to other organisations.

The Forestry Commission has shown genuine concern for the environment and has put it at the heart of its work, and it has given the highest priority to the protection and enhancement of biodiversity. As several hon. Members reminded us, particularly my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent Central (Tristram Hunt), it has been particularly successful in opening access to its estate, even to those parts that it does not own but leases. One of the major concerns as this process goes forward is what will happen to that access. At the moment, the estate has some 40 million visitors a year. They go there not only to walk, ride and cycle but to have their experience enhanced and interpreted by the Forestry Commission in producing educational material.

Those are all outstanding achievements for the Forestry Commission, in the course of which it has been able to reduce its dependency on public funds. The hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) drew attention to an outstanding aspect of its record—it is the only state-owned forest in Europe to have been declared truly sustainable. As she said, the whole of the public forest estate has received Forest Stewardship Council certification and, as such, is recognised as being managed responsibly. It is significant that, when questioned on this, the Minister of State has been completely unable to guarantee that attaining such certification will be a requirement for those who might take over its ownership and management. He has described that as being something that will be optional for them, which means, of course, something that they will not wish to subscribe to.

Throughout this debate, we have struggled to understand the reason for what the Government are doing. The first reason given by the Secretary of State—[Interruption.] She says that we do not understand; well, perhaps the Minister of State will explain it to us. Originally she described the sale as something that would fill the black hole in the flood defence budget. That was until she realised that the cost to the Government of subsidising other people to manage the forests would far outweigh any of those proceeds. Indeed, the impact assessment published today makes it clear that in fact the Government stand to make a net loss from the sale of these forests, and that the burden on the public purse will be greater as a result of their disposal, not less.

When that excuse wore thin, the Government turned to the explanation that this was about allowing communities and environmental groups to manage the land—the big society. That was until most of those bodies realised, as has been confirmed today, that they would have to meet the market price to purchase the land and that they would be scraping around for years afterwards to try to pay for its upkeep—for the assets and liabilities that they would be taking on.

Only when the Secretary of State realised that neither of those two explanations for the Government’s action had any credibility were we given the spurious reason that it was necessary because of the failings of the Forestry Commission constitution. Significantly, we did not hear that from her until today, but we have heard it on several occasions recently. It was mentioned briefly today by the Prime Minister. The argument is that there is some inherent conflict of interest in the Forestry Commission that makes it unable to carry out the role that is given to it. We have heard no evidence that such a conflict of interest gets in the way of the commission doing its work. All we have heard is that it is a very successful organisation that is performing an admirable duty in protecting our forests and enhancing their biodiversity, and ensuring that we, the public, have access to them.

First, it was the money, then it was the big society, and then it was the alleged conflict of interest. I hope that the Minister will give us the real reason for this, because there is widespread suspicion that we have not heard it. I understand that he has let slip one of his primary motivating forces—that this is unfinished business; even though Baroness Thatcher thought of selling off the forestry estate, she never had the determination to carry it through. For her, privatising our nation’s forests was one privatisation too far. The people of England, whether they be walkers, cyclists, riders or just ordinary people who care about our natural woodlands, are united in saying no to that privatisation.

It is clear that the Government’s use of the big society to justify the policy is a sham. This is not about new opportunities for public participation or new ownership models. It is not about giving preference to local people, because they would have to bid for the land alongside international logging companies.

We have heard about the position of heritage forests such as the New Forest and the Forest of Dean. I want to put on record what the Government’s consultation paper says about those forests. It states that they might be handed over to charities, but that those charities

“would be expected to become less reliant on Government support over time.”

What charity or trust in its right mind would take on the liability of the New Forest or the Forest of Dean if it were expected to make savings over time?

My hon. Friends the Members for Bishop Auckland (Helen Goodman) and for Nottingham South (Lilian Greenwood) spoke about Robin Hood in the context of the forests. My hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham South described the sale of these assets as mean and small-minded. To that, I add stupid and destructive.

The sale of our forests and woodlands is opposed by 84% of the public. The Secretary of State was dismissive of public opinion, but 300,000 people have already signed a petition against the sell-off. I wonder whether she is dismissive of the people because she thinks that they do not understand what she is doing. That point has been made by some Members, who have said that there is scaremongering. I suggest that most Members know that the people understand only too well the threat of what the Secretary of State is doing to our precious forests and woodlands.

In this comparatively short debate, we have only begun to reflect the concern and anger of people up and down the country about the future of our precious forests and woodlands. Our woods and forests are just that—ours. Of course the Forestry Commission must continue to be commercially effective, but it must also be there to protect our access as walkers, cyclists and riders in our forests, to continue its excellent work in education, and to protect and improve forest habitats. As my hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) reminded us, it must have the staff and the scientific expertise to carry out its wider public duties as an adviser and a regulator.

Forests were indeed sold off while Labour was in government, but the first tranche of sales planned by this Government involves 10 times more land than was sold off in the last five years of the Labour Government. Those sales made possible the purchase of land to plant 1 million trees in Wigan, 2 million in Warrington, 2 million in St Helens, 1 million in Moseley and 1 million in Ellesmere Port. Every penny went back into forestry, not to fill a black hole in the Secretary of State’s flood defence budget.

The protests about this issue are only beginning. They will go on until the Government get the message. Members from all parts of the House will continue to get the message from their constituents. We have heard brave words from the hon. Members for Hexham (Guy Opperman) and for New Forest East (Dr Lewis), who spoke with authority and conviction on behalf of their constituents and their beloved forests.

[George Freeman (Mid Norfolk) (Con)]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Sir Peter Soulsby]

I do not have time, I am afraid.

Those Members reflected this evening a message that we will all hear in the weeks and months to come—that these are our woods and our forests, and they are precious to us all. They must remain open to the public, protected for the public and owned by the public.