Forestry Commission

Peter Soulsby Excerpts

Tuesday 1st March 2011 Westminster Hall

[Tony Baldry]

I did not want you to think, Mr Gray, that I was trying to steal all the glory of those days under Lord Heseltine and others in the Department of the Environment, when we benefited from your advice. It is worth recalling that the Conservative party has a long tradition of seeking to enhance woodland cover in the UK. The national forest, which was an initiative by that Government, has been a great success story. Last year, the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee reported:

“Fifteen years on from its inception, The National Forest is a success story. It is delivering tangible environmental, economic and social benefits out of a bold vision to transform a 200 square mile swathe of the Midlands—much of which was suffering economic and environmental decline—through planting trees to create new woods and forests. Its achievement is not so much in trebling the proportion of land with tree cover to 18%, but that, in so doing, it has helped to regenerate the local economy, open up the Forest to greater public use and improve the natural environment.”

On community forests, the Countryside Agency commissioned consultants a few years ago to assess their impact, and they concluded that, overall, the community forests programme

“has been successful in levering in high levels of private and voluntary sector support”,

and that

“over the period 1990-2003, the total amount levered”

into new woodland

“totalled £42.9 million.”

They also noted:

“Overall, the CFP is performing well in terms of increasing woodland cover and improving the environment.

The CFP is performing particularly well in terms of providing opportunities for informal recreation and opening up rights of way.”

I am proud to have been involved in initiatives such as the national forest that encourage the development of everything from community forests to local pocket parks, and which have enhanced community woodland.

It is sensible for the Secretary of State to establish an independent panel to consider forestry policy in England. It will report its findings to the Secretary of State in the autumn, and it will advise on the direction of forestry and woodland policy in England and on the role of the Forestry Commission and the public forest estate. I hope that the independent panel will be able to look at all the questions raised in the consultation paper—it was published by DEFRA, but subsequently withdrawn—on the future of the Forestry Commission. Part of the difficulty in this whole saga is that the clauses relating to the commission in the Public Bodies Bill had, by necessity, to be published before DEFRA was able to publish its consultation on the commission’s future. When their lordships considered a number of different issues in the Bill, they managed to get themselves confused and allow a considerable degree of speculation about what might have been happening when it was clearly not what was intended. I think that that was made clear by the Secretary of State’s statement to the House.

[Sir Peter Soulsby (Leicester South) (Lab)]

Could it not be that their lordships’ understanding of the proposals was based on what was said to them by the Minister? He said that

“we wish to proceed with…very substantial disposal of public forest estate, which could go to the extent of all of it.”

That sounds very clear and it is hardly surprising that their lordships took the Minister at his word.

[Tony Baldry]

That highlights a fundamental misunderstanding. The Forestry Commission has within its control two different types of woodland. It was brought into being at the time of the first world war to enable the country to have access to commercial forestry to provide timber for such things as pit props for the mines, and the vast majority of commercial forestry in this country—about 82%—is and has always been in private ownership. It would be very surprising if, at a time when we no longer expect the state to run airlines, own travel agencies, generate electricity or operate sewage treatment works, we thought that the state should be growing Christmas trees. Such a view is slightly bizarre.

The Forestry Commission also has heritage woodland within its ownership. I suspect that there has sometimes been a deliberate attempt by those wishing to create mischief to cause confusion between the Government’s policy on commercial forestry and on heritage woodland. The Secretary of State could not have been clearer about the matter when she spoke to the House when launching the consultation paper: the Government consider those matters to be two very different entities. The Secretary of State could not made it plainer to the House that if appropriate bodies do not come forward to manage heritage woodland properly, that woodland will remain within the public estate.

I am conscious that other hon. Members wish to speak. The other points I want to make are that we have heard a lot about the Forestry Commission during the past few weeks, but I hope that the independent panel will give regard to how we can increase woodland cover more generally in the UK, particularly in England. On commercial forestry, I hope that the panel will consider the effect and impact of the tax regime in England in comparison with regimes elsewhere in the world—for example, considerable tree planting is taking place in the United States. The trust funds of universities such as Harvard, Yale and others are investing considerable money in commercial forestry because, as they are charities, there are incentives for them to do so under US tax law.

On heritage woodland, I hope that the Minister will be able to tell us what will follow the environmental stewardship schemes that have formed part of the rural development programme for England for a considerable time. It is clear that the majority of agricultural land is almost entirely in private ownership and therefore planting for new broadleaf community woodlands will almost certainly take place on private land. What incentive or encouragement will there be for farmers, as landowners, to plant new community woodland?

When the independent panel concludes its work, I hope that there will be two coherent chapters on different policies. I hope that there is one chapter on the future of commercial forestry—how we can encourage more of it in the UK—and the Forestry Commission, and a second on how we enhance heritage woodland and encourage access and amenity in relation to community woodland, as we did with the national forest and community forests. It should be on the record that the Government have made it very clear that they wish to enhance and protect the rights of access. I suspect that the main concern of a large number of constituents who have understandably contacted us about the issue is that they should continue to have access to woodland. That is very important. The Government have made it clear throughout that they want to protect access to woodland. However, that needs to be stated and restated time and again.

--- Later in debate ---

[Sir Peter Soulsby (Leicester South) (Lab)]

I join other hon. Members in congratulating my right hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham, Deptford (Joan Ruddock) on securing the debate. It is clear from the contributions that Members have made that, despite the Government’s somewhat change of approach, this is still a current issue for us. As she reminds us, the context of her request for the debate was the threat to England’s woodlands and forests seeming immediate and imminent. Although there has been some change since then, that threat has not gone away, as she and my hon. Friend the Member for Blaydon (Mr Anderson) reminded us.

It is evident from the contributions to this debate and to the debate in the main Chamber on 2 February that our forests and woodlands are precious to us and to our constituents. The steward of those forests and woodlands—the body that has oversight of them on our behalf, which cares for, looks after and nurtures them—is the Forestry Commission. Its role in undertaking those tasks on our behalf is vital. It is vital for the land that it directly manages, for the oversight, regulation and advice that it provides to others, and, most particularly, for the example that it sets to others on how to manage the woodland under its control.

As the debate on England’s forests on 2 February highlighted, the Forestry Commission manages 258,000 hectares of land in England. As pointed out during the debate, that represents only 18% of all woodland in England. That 18% represents only 44% of the total woodland accessible for the public to enjoy and appreciate. Our debate today is not simply about the woodland in England, but about the Forestry Commission in general and its stewardship.

[Roger Williams]

The hon. Gentleman makes a good point about the public estate being only 44% of publicly accessible land and about how much public access is provided by the woodlands and forests in private ownership.

[Sir Peter Soulsby]

That is indeed the case. As I acknowledged, we very much welcome the fact that the Forestry Commission, in the exemplary way it manages its land—promoting biodiversity, providing education, interpretation and access—offers an example to others, which some follow.

Woodland managed in England is only about one third of the total woodland and forest managed by the Forestry Commission across Great Britain. It is estimated that that is more than 1.4 billion trees—although I do not think that anyone has actually counted them all.

The hon. Member for Brecon and Radnorshire (Roger Williams) spoke about how the Forestry Commission dramatically has changed its approach to management over the years and about how it has become an exemplary organisation. It is a major land manager that sets very high standards. It has one of the largest collections of sites of special scientific interest, with an excellent record of 99% being in favourable or recovering condition. It provides for a substantial number of visitors, and is estimated to have had more than 40 million visits last year. He put his finger on it when he mentioned previous debates—

[Roger Williams]

Lack of.

--- Later in debate ---

[Sir Peter Soulsby]

Or the lack of debates on forestry in the House over recent years. That is interesting because I think that it points not to a lack of interest in forestry, but to a belief, up until now, that the forests were in safe hands and it was not a matter about which Members needed to concern themselves. That was why it was so distressing and surprising when we heard the Government’s proposals to sell 40,000 hectares immediately. The hon. Member for Daventry cannot get away from it and the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire (Glyn Davies) cannot suggest that we misinterpreted the Government’s intentions. As shown by the quotes earlier, the Government were clear about their intentions for the public forest estate. I quote the Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs:

“We wish to proceed with very substantial disposal of public forest estate, which could go to the extent of all of it.”

That is clear. People were not making it up. People did not misunderstand it. Those words meant what they—

[Mr Paice]

Rubbish.

[Sir Peter Soulsby]

They could mean nothing other than that. There could be a wholesale sell-off. The outcry was totally predictable to everybody other than the Minister and his colleagues. They tried to dismiss that as scaremongering, and in the run-up to the 2 February debate, they said that they were doing it for the money. Perhaps the Minister will explain some of the figures behind the proposals and say what he now believes the net proceeds would have been. They tried to justify the sale in that way, and when that fell apart, they tried to justify it in terms of the big society. But that fell apart and, as we heard again from Government Members, they invented the spurious explanation that it was about trying to resolve a conflict of interest within the organisation of the Forestry Commission. It was somehow inappropriate for the Forestry Commission to be both the operator and the regulator, and it was incapable of doing something that it has done successfully for many decades.

[Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con)]

I did not really support the plans the Government introduced, but I thought that it was right to have a consultation period, for which I voted. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that we should think more about what the independent review might say and about how we might funnel our views and the views of our constituents towards it?

[Sir Peter Soulsby]

I will come to questions to the Minister about how independent the review will be and what its terms of reference will be in one moment. Before doing that, I will return to the concerns about the continuing threats to the Forestry Commission’s work expressed by my right hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham, Deptford when she introduced the debate and later by my hon. Friend the Member for Blaydon. They pointed out that although it appears that there has been some pause in the Government’s headlong rush to dismantle the public forest estate, they are pressing ahead with requiring the Forestry Commission to make substantial cuts in its staff. Some 400 jobs—about a quarter of the total—are at risk immediately. That will inevitably reduce its capacity to undertake the excellent stewardship achieved over recent years. Its ability to manage the deer and wildlife will be reduced, learning and educational programmes will be cut, and there will inevitably be extended charges for services or the shutting of facilities. Elements of what the Forestry Commission manages directly and excellently at the moment will have to be passed over to others.

I have a number of questions for the Minister. My right hon. and hon. Friends have already mentioned some of them, but I will list the points again and allow the Minister plenty of time to respond. When will the Government bring forward details of who will sit on the new panel, and how will they guarantee the independence of that panel? Will the panel include public and local campaign groups that have been involved in the campaign to save the forests, and will it include members of the work force? Will the panel meet in public? Will all existing planned sales be halted pending the panel’s report?

Will the panel be able to recommend maintaining the land in public hands? The Minister muttered “Rubbish” from a sedentary position when this point was raised earlier, so perhaps he will take the opportunity to tell us if it is untrue. How can the Government deliver better woodland access and biodiversity when the Forestry Commission is cutting staff by a quarter over the next three months? Finally, will any future receipts from sales of land stay within the Forestry Commission so that they can be used for the enhancement of our public forest estate? That is what the previous Government did and, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham, Deptford reminded us, it is something of which we are proud.

The public were appalled by what the Government proposed, and they understood clearly the full extent of what it might mean. Those who campaigned so effectively were aware of the threat to our precious woodlands and forests, but they must be reminded that the threat has not gone away, and we have had the opportunity to do that today. Conservative Members have been dismissive of those fears in the past, and we have heard such fears dismissed again today. Hon. Members from all sides must have heard the clear message during the run-up to the debate on 2 February, and it is still something that we need to hear. Our woods and forests are just that—they are our woods and our forests. They must be kept that way and properly managed by the Forestry Commission, an organisation that has an excellent record in the stewardship of those precious assets on our behalf.

[Tony Baldry]

On a point of order, Mr Gray, for the benefit of Hansard, I am the hon. Member for Banbury, not the hon. Member for Daventry.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Paice]

My apologies. It makes me doubt the right hon. Lady’s commitment to the whole picture. On her website, she has been on about how much land the previous Conservative Government and the Forestry Commission sold. Of course, she omits to point out that most of that was in Scotland, because under that previous Government the Forestry Commission was one body, so in comparison with what happened under the Labour Government, who were selling only in England after devolution, the figures look dramatically different. She also omitted to mention, although one of my hon. Friends did mention it, that under the previous Government tree planting fell to an all-time low. The rate halved under the Government of whom she was so proud to be a member.

Much has been said about the fact that the public forest estate comprises just 18% of all woods and forests in England. We should not in any way ignore that statistic. It is clear that many people were confused about how much of the forestry in this country was owned or rented by the Forestry Commission. It is just 18%. Although the right hon. Member for Lewisham, Deptford and other hon. Members have been, by implication, quite damning of the 69% that is held in private hands—the rest is in other forms of public or community ownership—we do not see with that 69% all the disasters that we were told would befall public land if it went into the private sector. As my hon. Friend the Member for East Hampshire (Damian Hinds) rightly pointed out, people cannot fell trees in this country without a felling licence, and almost certainly they will have to replant. Indeed, since I have been the Minister responsible, I have had to intervene on a few occasions to enforce the replanting requirements to ensure that that happens. Therefore, suggestions of massive deforestation are completely absurd and take us away from the serious debate that others want to address.

Let me deal with some of the specific questions that I was asked. I will not disclose anything about the content of the panel, because the Secretary of State will announce in due course who will serve on the panel and what its terms of reference will be. I can emphasise, though, that the status quo—the hon. Member for Leicester South asked about this—is of course an option. If the panel recommends that, clearly it is entitled to do so. To rule it out would be nonsensical. If the panel recommends change, the issue of public consultation comes back into play, so there will be plenty of time. The hon. Member for Blaydon (Mr Anderson) said that if the panel concludes in favour of anything other than the status quo, we will not have listened to the public. I say to him that we will consult the public about any changes if the panel recommends them. I do not want to prejudge what the outcome of the panel will be.

The hon. Member for Leicester South asked how we would guarantee independence. The chairman will be appointed and will be completely independent; indeed, all the members will be. We are not filling the panel with civil servants or anything like that. It will be completely independent. It will be for the members to decide how they operate, but I cannot see why they should not have public meetings if that seems appropriate.

The hon. Gentleman asked about the 25% cut, and other hon. Members have raised that. All Opposition Members should be well aware that they managed to leave this country in desperate straits and we have had to take very tough decisions on public expenditure. All DEFRA’s arm’s length bodies have had to take a 25% cut, just as core DEFRA has had to. That is tough, and I feel for all the people who may find themselves losing jobs or not being able to get a job because the job has disappeared as a result. However, as my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has made clear, the deficit must come first—we must deal with it. I will not apologise—indeed, it should be for those on the Opposition Benches to apologise—for the fact that we have had to make those reductions. The details of how they will be made in this area are a matter for the Forestry Commission. It has made its proposals, which are out for consultation. It would be wrong of me to discuss them in public while that consultation is going on.

A number of other points were raised. I shall try to encapsulate some of them but, most importantly, I want to make the point that, contrary to the impression that the Opposition have tried to give, the Government feel very strongly about forestry. Perhaps I should have said, like other hon. Members, that I have the grand total of 1 hectare of woodland on my own little property. Like others, I planted it myself 20 years ago under a woodland grant scheme, although that has long since expired, and I am proud to spend a lot of time in it managing it. I passionately believe in the importance of forestry. What I do not believe is that the status quo is automatically always the best way forward. It is right that we should reconsider how the Forestry Commission operates, and the panel will advise us on whether there should be changes.

It is worth pointing out that the Forestry Commission’s commercial arm makes a margin of just £1 million on its commercial activities. That is substantially offset by the understandable costs of recreation, amenity, biodiversity and the other services that the commission provides, as a number of hon. Members rightly identified. That means that there is a massive overall cost to the taxpayer. As my hon. Friend the Member for Banbury said, in the past the commission has made that up by selling off assets on an annual basis, and it has been selling those assets without the protection for public access, rights of way and all the other things that Opposition Members now preach to us about. Those things were not protected, so Opposition Members are not in a good position to criticise us.

We hope that the panel will consider all aspects of the public forest estate. As I said, the Secretary of State will publish details of the proposed membership and the terms of reference of the panel shortly. We look forward to the conclusions that it comes to. I can assure the House that the present Government’s genuine commitment to forestry in this country—public, private and community—is real and as strong as it has ever been.

The truth of what I have just said is underlined by the fact that, as my hon. Friend the Member for Banbury said, the National Forest was brought in by a Conservative Government, who did a tremendous amount of work in developing forestry in the former coal mining areas of the midlands. That is a great place for everyone to visit. The real point to make, though, is that virtually none of it is on state-owned land. Planting has been incentivised on private and community-owned land, not public land bought by the Forestry Commission. Therefore, we can have a vibrant, strong forest in this country, with access and with all the necessary protection for biodiversity. Whether the state needs to be involved not only in owning it but in managing and running it is now a matter for the panel, the details of which we will announce shortly.

[Sir Peter Soulsby]

I understand the Minister’s reluctance to give the names of those who might serve on the panel, but surely he will accept that it is important that those who have spoken out so strongly on behalf of woodlands and forests have their voice heard on that panel. Will he at this stage agree to ensure that on that panel are members of the public and local campaign groups who have been speaking so vehemently on behalf of our forests?

[Mr Paice]

I am sorry, but I will not be drawn on the membership of the panel because once I give way on one aspect of who might be on the panel, I will be drawn into discussing everything. The Secretary of State will make the announcement shortly. I hope that we can then go forward with the seriousness of approach that my hon. Friend the Member for Brecon and Radnorshire mentioned so wisely in his contribution.

Oral Answers to Questions

Peter Soulsby Excerpts

Thursday 3rd February 2011 Commons Chamber

[Sir Peter Soulsby (Leicester South) (Lab)]

I have read the consultation paper. I have also read the impact assessment, which shows that the selling of our forests and dismantling of the Forestry Commission has nothing to do with the costs or the benefits. We know that the Government are not listening to the big society or the community, because community groups are desperately worried about having to take on responsibility for their woods and forests. I note that today, as yesterday, the Secretary of State has not even mentioned her phoney argument about regulation, because it is so weak. At the heart of this, one question remains: just why is the Secretary of State determined to sell off our precious woods and forests?

[Mrs Spelman]

That was part of last night’s debate. It is clear that the Opposition do not want community groups and charities to be able to take ownership and management. That is clearly a divide between our parties. This is not primarily about cost and benefit. The point about regulation still stands. The Forestry Commission is both the regulator and the largest seller of timber in the market that it regulates. In this day and age, that kind of conflict of interest cannot continue.

Public Forest Estate (England)

Peter Soulsby Excerpts

Wednesday 2nd February 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mrs Spelman]

I think I have said this, but for the avoidance of doubt, public access and other public benefits will be improved and enhanced as a result of the proposals that we set out in our consultation document.

Having exposed the fact that the previous Government indeed looked at disposal of the public forest estate, I would like the Opposition to hear—[Interruption.] I would like them all to listen. That would be a start. I would like them to hear clearly why it is important to give the opportunity for the heritage forests to pass into the hands of charitable trusts. What we have seen from the evidence of documents from the previous Government is that the forests run the risk of successive Governments continually coming back to the question of how they should be owned and managed. Putting them safely in the hands of charitable trusts, as we propose to do, will mean that they will continue to be managed for the benefit of the nation. Their enhanced status in the hands of charitable trusts will put them beyond the reach of Whitehall politics once and for all.

[Sir Peter Soulsby (Leicester South) (Lab)]

In practice, would not trusts and charitable organisations be absolutely crazy to take on the burden of the New forest, for example? How could they possibly expect to have the fundraising capacity to meet the ongoing costs of managing it appropriately, particularly given the Government’s expectation, clearly stated in their consultation paper, that such gifts to those organisations should move towards self-reliance? They would be crazy to take that on in such circumstances.

[Mrs Spelman]

The hon. Gentleman clearly was not listening to the question asked by my hon. Friend the Member for New Forest East (Dr Lewis). We have made it clear that we would not expect charitable trusts to take these on without the running costs, so the hon. Gentleman’s fear is unfounded. Some smaller, local areas of woodland might fall into heritage status, but for those that do not, we are consulting on whether to offer them to local community groups or charities to take over first and foremost. If no local groups or charities want to take on the leasehold and no suitable buyer with a credible access and environmental protection plan comes forward, the woodland will simply remain in public ownership.

As I have said, for sites that are predominantly commercial in nature, we propose offering long leases with conditions attached. To be clear, there will be no one-size-fits-all approach, no land grabs and no fire sale. Instead, there will be a thoughtful, detailed, long-term programme of reviewing the estate, potentially over 10 years. There will be no rush; it is more important to get this right. We will look at how to improve the rate of recovery of plantations on ancient woodland sites, thereby enhancing biodiversity.

We will look at how the Forestry Commission can work with communities to help them to bid for local woodlands and at how we can actively improve access rights. I am thinking in particular of how we can access resource improvements for people with disabilities. We will look at how we can enable groups who run woodlands to draw down environmental grants in a way that the Forestry Commission currently cannot.

Those are all things that the Forestry Commission, with its expertise and dedication, is perfectly well placed to do. It is where it will really add value. If Members were to ask someone from the Forestry Commission whether they would rather be working with communities to help in the recovery of ancient woodland sites, or shrink-wrapping Christmas trees, what do they think they would say?

--- Later in debate ---

[Miss McIntosh]

I would put that question directly to the Minister, as I have done before. I want an assurance that the Pickering project, if it is successful, will be the forerunner of many similar projects in areas such as mine across the country. I want an assurance today that the trees will be planted and that the investment will be made. The hon. Gentleman prompts the question of why we should rely on the state to make that investment. We have moved a long way from the previous Government’s mistake of selling off the national treasure of Rigg wood in the Lake district without guarantees of access, the enjoyment of benefits and the continued biodiversity for which we have called.

I should like assurances on the economics, including what the gross receipts will be, and on continuing access. If, as the Woodland Trust states, ownership is not the key, I should like to know what guarantees there can be about how management and commercial interests will fund the commercial forests. In the case of heritage forests, I may be being very simple, but I should like to know how the Government are going to fund investment in the charitable funds that will run those forests.

[Sir Peter Soulsby]

The hon. Lady has spoken about some of the public benefits delivered by the Forestry Commission, particularly with regard to flooding in her constituency. Does she seriously think that there is any prospect at all of any private operator being prepared to give guarantees that it will deliver the same public benefits, on flooding or other matters, that the Forestry Commission currently can?

[Miss McIntosh]

I take great heart from what the Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, my hon. Friend the Member for Newbury (Richard Benyon), said. There is a large private estate in the heart of Thirsk, Malton and Filey that makes many investments for the public good and allows access. My concern is that I do not know the status of my area’s forests, so I do not know whether I should be arguing for heritage protection or another type of protection, but I want to keep an open mind on the question of ownership.

I end with a plea to the Minister. If the consultation is to be worth anything, the Government must listen to, and act on, the tone and content of the responses.

--- Later in debate ---

[Sir Peter Soulsby (Leicester South) (Lab)]

The Forestry Commission is a British success story. I say that deliberately, because although we are talking about England’s forests, as my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh North and Leith (Mark Lazarowicz) reminded us, the Forestry Commission operates throughout the United Kingdom, and weakening it, as the Government are doing in the measures before us, will have an impact throughout the UK.

The Forestry Commission, as we were also reminded, was set up in 1919, and its core business originally was the production of pit props. Those days are long gone, however, as are the days when it planted insensitive and destructive plantations of parade ground conifers that marched across our hillsides.

Over recent years, the commission has been at the forefront of rural protection. My hon. Friend the Member for Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies) and several other hon. Members drew attention to its work on the stewardship of the natural environment, on which it has set an example to other organisations.

The Forestry Commission has shown genuine concern for the environment and has put it at the heart of its work, and it has given the highest priority to the protection and enhancement of biodiversity. As several hon. Members reminded us, particularly my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent Central (Tristram Hunt), it has been particularly successful in opening access to its estate, even to those parts that it does not own but leases. One of the major concerns as this process goes forward is what will happen to that access. At the moment, the estate has some 40 million visitors a year. They go there not only to walk, ride and cycle but to have their experience enhanced and interpreted by the Forestry Commission in producing educational material.

Those are all outstanding achievements for the Forestry Commission, in the course of which it has been able to reduce its dependency on public funds. The hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) drew attention to an outstanding aspect of its record—it is the only state-owned forest in Europe to have been declared truly sustainable. As she said, the whole of the public forest estate has received Forest Stewardship Council certification and, as such, is recognised as being managed responsibly. It is significant that, when questioned on this, the Minister of State has been completely unable to guarantee that attaining such certification will be a requirement for those who might take over its ownership and management. He has described that as being something that will be optional for them, which means, of course, something that they will not wish to subscribe to.

Throughout this debate, we have struggled to understand the reason for what the Government are doing. The first reason given by the Secretary of State—[Interruption.] She says that we do not understand; well, perhaps the Minister of State will explain it to us. Originally she described the sale as something that would fill the black hole in the flood defence budget. That was until she realised that the cost to the Government of subsidising other people to manage the forests would far outweigh any of those proceeds. Indeed, the impact assessment published today makes it clear that in fact the Government stand to make a net loss from the sale of these forests, and that the burden on the public purse will be greater as a result of their disposal, not less.

When that excuse wore thin, the Government turned to the explanation that this was about allowing communities and environmental groups to manage the land—the big society. That was until most of those bodies realised, as has been confirmed today, that they would have to meet the market price to purchase the land and that they would be scraping around for years afterwards to try to pay for its upkeep—for the assets and liabilities that they would be taking on.

Only when the Secretary of State realised that neither of those two explanations for the Government’s action had any credibility were we given the spurious reason that it was necessary because of the failings of the Forestry Commission constitution. Significantly, we did not hear that from her until today, but we have heard it on several occasions recently. It was mentioned briefly today by the Prime Minister. The argument is that there is some inherent conflict of interest in the Forestry Commission that makes it unable to carry out the role that is given to it. We have heard no evidence that such a conflict of interest gets in the way of the commission doing its work. All we have heard is that it is a very successful organisation that is performing an admirable duty in protecting our forests and enhancing their biodiversity, and ensuring that we, the public, have access to them.

First, it was the money, then it was the big society, and then it was the alleged conflict of interest. I hope that the Minister will give us the real reason for this, because there is widespread suspicion that we have not heard it. I understand that he has let slip one of his primary motivating forces—that this is unfinished business; even though Baroness Thatcher thought of selling off the forestry estate, she never had the determination to carry it through. For her, privatising our nation’s forests was one privatisation too far. The people of England, whether they be walkers, cyclists, riders or just ordinary people who care about our natural woodlands, are united in saying no to that privatisation.

It is clear that the Government’s use of the big society to justify the policy is a sham. This is not about new opportunities for public participation or new ownership models. It is not about giving preference to local people, because they would have to bid for the land alongside international logging companies.

We have heard about the position of heritage forests such as the New Forest and the Forest of Dean. I want to put on record what the Government’s consultation paper says about those forests. It states that they might be handed over to charities, but that those charities

“would be expected to become less reliant on Government support over time.”

What charity or trust in its right mind would take on the liability of the New Forest or the Forest of Dean if it were expected to make savings over time?

My hon. Friends the Members for Bishop Auckland (Helen Goodman) and for Nottingham South (Lilian Greenwood) spoke about Robin Hood in the context of the forests. My hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham South described the sale of these assets as mean and small-minded. To that, I add stupid and destructive.

The sale of our forests and woodlands is opposed by 84% of the public. The Secretary of State was dismissive of public opinion, but 300,000 people have already signed a petition against the sell-off. I wonder whether she is dismissive of the people because she thinks that they do not understand what she is doing. That point has been made by some Members, who have said that there is scaremongering. I suggest that most Members know that the people understand only too well the threat of what the Secretary of State is doing to our precious forests and woodlands.

In this comparatively short debate, we have only begun to reflect the concern and anger of people up and down the country about the future of our precious forests and woodlands. Our woods and forests are just that—ours. Of course the Forestry Commission must continue to be commercially effective, but it must also be there to protect our access as walkers, cyclists and riders in our forests, to continue its excellent work in education, and to protect and improve forest habitats. As my hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) reminded us, it must have the staff and the scientific expertise to carry out its wider public duties as an adviser and a regulator.

Forests were indeed sold off while Labour was in government, but the first tranche of sales planned by this Government involves 10 times more land than was sold off in the last five years of the Labour Government. Those sales made possible the purchase of land to plant 1 million trees in Wigan, 2 million in Warrington, 2 million in St Helens, 1 million in Moseley and 1 million in Ellesmere Port. Every penny went back into forestry, not to fill a black hole in the Secretary of State’s flood defence budget.

The protests about this issue are only beginning. They will go on until the Government get the message. Members from all parts of the House will continue to get the message from their constituents. We have heard brave words from the hon. Members for Hexham (Guy Opperman) and for New Forest East (Dr Lewis), who spoke with authority and conviction on behalf of their constituents and their beloved forests.

[George Freeman (Mid Norfolk) (Con)]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Sir Peter Soulsby]

I do not have time, I am afraid.

Those Members reflected this evening a message that we will all hear in the weeks and months to come—that these are our woods and our forests, and they are precious to us all. They must remain open to the public, protected for the public and owned by the public.

Oral Answers to Questions

Peter Soulsby Excerpts

Thursday 9th December 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mrs Spelman]

With respect, the question is about the big tree plant campaign, a partnership campaign that DEFRA will support with £4 million of public money. The campaign is being run in conjunction with a large number of partners and charities, including Groundwork, Keep Britain Tidy, the Tree Council and the National Forest Company. In every sense, it is a big society campaign.

[Sir Peter Soulsby (Leicester South) (Lab)]

Two hundred and fifty thousand a year sounds like a lot of trees, but not when compared with the estimated 250 million trees—1,000 times as many—owned by the Forestry Commission in England, much of which the Government are intent on selling off and putting at risk. Will the Secretary of State tell us what she will say to the Chief Secretary to the Treasury, who is actively campaigning against proposals to dispose of a similar proportion of Forestry Commission land in Scotland—a sale of trees that Lib Dems have described as “hugely flawed” and as a “money-making scam”?

Shoreline Management Plans

Peter Soulsby Excerpts

Tuesday 30th November 2010 Westminster Hall

[Sir Peter Soulsby (Leicester South) (Lab)]

I, too, congratulate the hon. Member for Suffolk Coastal (Dr Coffey) on securing this timely debate on shoreline management plans. She began by telling us that hers is the only constituency with the word “coastal” in its name. The coast that she represents is wonderful and, indeed, has an excellent brewery, which some of us have often appreciated in the past.

Like other hon. Members, the hon. Lady has expressed her constituents’ understandable concern about the future of their shoreline. She might not have been resident in the constituency for long, but she has clearly illustrated that she has a good understanding of the issues that affect its coast. It was a great pleasure to note that she has picked up her predecessor’s environmental concerns, which she clearly expressed.

Shoreline management issues are controversial and subject to a wide variety of different views and interests. Given the nature of our geography, we in the United Kingdom have sought over many centuries to manage the natural processes, such as erosion and deposition, that affect our shoreline. However, as time has passed, and particularly over recent decades, we have grown to have a better understanding of those natural processes, the risks associated with development on our shoreline and the mechanisms available to manage that shoreline.

The diversity of our shoreline has been well illustrated by the range of hon. Members’ contributions. The hon. Member for Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire (Simon Hart) illustrated the fact that the coastline varies greatly not only from one constituency to another, but within constituencies. As a result, the solutions that are appropriate for one part of the shoreline can be very different from those that are needed elsewhere along the shoreline, even within a constituency.

The hon. Lady referred to “Making Space For Water”, and that important publication has had a great impact on how we think about the management of our coast. She also referred to the number of studies done since the mid-1990s, when shoreline management plans were first introduced, that have looked at the broad issues relating to how we manage our shoreline. Since the introduction of those first management plans, we have seen predictions of sea level rises due to climate change increase dramatically. Those have had to be incorporated into the second generation of plans. The current defences, which may have a limited life, might not be economically, socially, technically or environmentally practical in future. Also, changes in the shoreline might require new approaches to manage future risks.

Clearly, there is no suggestion that we could abandon coastal protection altogether, but climate change is a reality, as is the tilt in our geography, and changing shorelines are to some extent inevitable. I think that we are all aware, though, that many solutions are both expensive and problematic. We are also aware—I have referred to the diversity of our shorelines—that what is appropriate in one area might not be appropriate elsewhere, or indeed in that area in future. The hon. Member for Newton Abbot (Anne Marie Morris) gave an excellent example: what is appropriate in Dawlish is not necessarily appropriate in the Exe estuary. She is right to make the case for continuing the defences at Dawlish because of the railway line that they carry and all that it represents, but she is also right to draw our attention to the different solutions necessary for the nearby Exe estuary.

The purpose of shoreline management plans has been to provide a coherent, consistent and strategic approach to shoreline management. All those elements are important as we look towards the next generation of plans. It is also important to recognise that, as was intended in the beginning, there must be a partnership between local government, local communities, the Environment Agency, Natural England and the many others with an interest in how particular stretches of shoreline are managed. Since their establishment in the mid-1990s, shoreline management plans have undoubtedly had considerable success in providing such strategic, consistent and coherent approaches, but the future will bring new challenges. The hon. Member for Suffolk Coastal was right to draw our attention to the fact that it is not possible to envisage a ring of stone, as she put it, around the United Kingdom. Difficult choices will have to be made.

I hope that when the Minister replies to this debate, he will be able to reassure us about the future. It is of course important, as the hon. Lady said, to enable local communities to respond in ways that they feel are appropriate. It is also important, as the hon. Member for Great Yarmouth (Brandon Lewis) suggested, that there should be a degree of freedom and choice in the way forward. However, the approach to shoreline management plans must continue to be strategic. I hope that the Minister will reassure us that it will be, and that it will not simply be a matter of allowing those individuals and localities that can afford it to build defences, regardless of the impact on other stretches of coast, other communities or other individuals.

I also hope that the Minister can reassure us about something that must be of concern to all of us: the ability of the various partners to continue to play an active part in shoreline management plans. I referred to the Environment Agency and Natural England, but the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs is suffering severe budget reductions, and local authorities will have to make significant reductions as well. I am not talking only about their ability to fund capital works. It is vital that the Minister reassures us about the ability of all the partners to continue to play their part in the management and maintenance of shorelines and about their ability to ensure that they have the expertise necessary to give advice and support to those who have an interest in the future management of shorelines, because the expenditure reductions taking place in DEFRA, the Environment Agency, Natural England and local authorities undoubtedly could result in the loss of the expertise that is essential to make the partnerships that are inherent in the success of shoreline management plans as successful in the future as they have been in the past.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Paice]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend; she makes a point that has been made many times. I know that the Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, my hon. Friend the Member for Newbury is conscious of that issue and is working with the Environment Agency to see how we can alter the situation, which I do not think necessarily means reducing the specification of what is done. I am grateful to my hon. Friend for raising the matter.

The proposals to which I have just referred are subject to consultation and final decisions will be made in the spring after the consultation closes on 16 February 2011. I hope that this will mark a significant step forward in how we go about things. I think I have referred to most of the issues that hon. Members raised; if I have not or if I have answered their concerns inadequately, perhaps Members could let me know.

[Sir Peter Soulsby]

I referred, at the conclusion of my remarks, to the loss of staff and expertise from Natural England, the Environment Agency and local government. The Minister referred to the role of Natural England as enabling and supporting Government. Will he provide reassurance that the Department is aware if that role is to be played, Natural England needs experts to offer the support that is fundamental to making a success of the plans?

[Mr Paice]

I cannot give the hon. Gentleman assurances about individuals for obvious reasons. Although, as he says, we are making significant savings across all the arms-length bodies, and within DEFRA, there is no reason why they should not retain the element of expertise to which he refers. We are trying to ensure that those arms-length bodies retain the ability do what they have to do and what Government need them to do, which includes giving scientific advice. Natural England is, after all, the statutory adviser to the Government on such issues, and it will retain that role. Where there are functions that the private or third sector can perform, we should try to make that happen. I know that the hon. Gentleman is not suggesting otherwise, but those bodies have taken their fair share of the reduction in funding that we have had to make as part of dealing with the overall public deficit. I hope that I have addressed most of the issues raised by hon. Members, but if not, I am happy to write to anyone who wishes to raise an issue with me.

Oral Answers to Questions

Peter Soulsby Excerpts

Thursday 4th November 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mrs Spelman]

I am delighted to tell my hon. Friend that as a result of the comprehensive spending review, both types of stewardship scheme will be maintained. There will be new entrants to both the entry-level and the higher-level stewardship schemes. We have ambitions to increase by about 80% the number of farmers in the higher-level stewardship scheme and to increase qualitatively the environmental benefits provided under the entry-level scheme.

[Sir Peter Soulsby (Leicester South) (Lab)]

Natural England is the nation’s principle conservation agency and our champion of biodiversity. In the name of reform, the Government are leaving it with no choice but to hand over 140 national nature reserves to anyone who will take them on, to put our network of national trails up for grabs and to cut back on the expert support that is vital to delivering the environmental stewardship schemes. We are talking about the nation’s front line in protecting our environment. The Government claim to be the greenest ever, but is not the reality that the Secretary of State is prepared to sacrifice Natural England and our precious environment in a bid to win friends and credit at the Treasury?

[Mrs Spelman]

I should like to countermand those suggestions. Natural England, in common with all the arm’s-length bodies in the DEFRA delivery network, is taking a pro rata reduction. It is required to make efficiency savings in the same way as the core Department has to. None the less, there will be no changes in Natural England’s statutory functions. It will cease to undertake some activities, such as lobbying and policy making, which should rightly be the domain of the Department at the centre. Consideration is being given to options for improving the management of our national nature reserves because that is consistent with a big society approach.

British Waterways

Peter Soulsby Excerpts

Wednesday 7th July 2010 Commons Chamber

[Tristram Hunt]

I am in full agreement with the hon. Lady. The wonder of canals is the civil society, the volunteering and the ethos around them. I was a trustee of the Heritage Lottery Fund in a previous life and followed with interest the Kennet and Avon’s progress. We have seen in all sorts of communities along the Kennet and Avon the regeneration aspects brought by canals.

[Sir Peter Soulsby (Leicester South) (Lab)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend on bringing this important issue before the House. Does he agree that British Waterways has had most success in promoting regeneration when it has brought its own property, land and buildings to the table with partners and has led those partnerships, and that, if it were to lose control of that property and land and those buildings, it would be very much enfeebled in its ability to promote regeneration?

[Tristram Hunt]

I am in full agreement with my hon. Friend, who brings me to the dark spectre of Her Majesty’s Treasury, which is where we fear that forces are at work that want to access that property in not the most progressive manner. The capacity of British Waterways to use volunteering, to bring in all sorts of other funders and to have that property asset inspires regeneration.

--- Later in debate ---

[Richard Benyon]

I was shown a photograph of that breach by the chairman of British Waterways at my meeting with him last week. It is expensive to maintain the waterways, and I hope that what I am about to say will show that we can provide the means to ensure that whatever organisation emerges has access to funding—probably never enough, but at least enough to deal with major problems such as that.

[Sir Peter Soulsby]

I very much welcome what the Minister is saying about the future of British Waterways, but does he accept that if it is to have the sustainable future that he talks about, it is vital that it takes with it its assets and its current property, and that they are not ripped out by his friends in the Treasury before the transfer takes place?