Water Bills (South West)

Lord Benyon Excerpts

Wednesday 30th November 2011 Westminster Hall

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon)]

First, may I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for North Cornwall (Dan Rogerson) on introducing this debate in an extremely timely manner. Perhaps if it was this time yesterday he would have been extolling the Government to take yet more action, and I am very glad that we were able to deliver. It has been a feature of Parliamentary life that when two or more south-west MPs are gathered together, the issue of water charges is raised, and as the Minister responsible, I am well aware of its importance to a huge number of his and other hon. Friends’ constituents in various constituencies across the south-west.

This is a really important issue for those people, and I recognise the important point that my hon. Friend made at the end: welcome as the measure is, he and other Members from all parts of the House will continue to push on this issue until they feel that greater parity has been achieved in water charges. As he knows, the average water and sewerage bill for household customers across England and Wales is £356, but the average for South West Water, before we implement these changes, is £517. He and other hon. Members will have dealt with cases of constituents, many of them in extremely straitened circumstances, whose bills are considerably higher. I recognise that this is an ongoing discussion and one that I am keen to continue to have with hon. Members across the south-west.

I am delighted that the Government were able to announce details of support for customers of South West Water in the autumn statement yesterday. Every South West Water household bill, as my hon. Friend says, will be reduced by £50 a year. That follows the commitment made in the Budget earlier this year to use public expenditure to support households facing high bills. The Government had to act. In her review, Anna Walker identified the fact that households in the south-west of England faced the highest water bills in the country, because at the time of privatisation, South West Water had the lowest levels of infrastructure required to protect drinking water quality and safeguard the wonderful environment that my hon. Friend so accurately described. This was the biggest challenge facing any water company at privatisation and in the 20 years that have elapsed since then, South West Water has invested around £2 billion to raise sewerage standards to the same level as elsewhere.

Local people have benefited though improved water quality, reduced leakage, cleaner beaches and bathing water, but—and it is a very big but—the cost has been met by those customers. The Government recognise that circumstances faced by customers of South West Water are exceptional and unfair. We are now addressing this historic issue and will contribute to the cost of reducing bills. We looked very closely at Anna Walker’s recommendations, and that was a feature of the debate that my hon. Friend secured some months ago in this Chamber. We decided that each household customer should receive an annual discount on their water bill. I am very grateful to all the south-west MPs who have doggedly raised this issue and demanded action. It is in the hon. Gentleman’s character to be big enough to recognise the input from Members of all parties and, of course, to Linda Gilroy, who raised this question in her time in the House.

This is a fairness measure: a payment to all South West Water household customers to redress an historic unfairness. This debate comes just ahead of the water White Paper, of which a key theme is affordability. South-west MPs have often raised with me and my predecessors individual cases of people in their constituencies who really struggle to afford their bills. Thankfully, even before yesterday’s announcement, South West Water had taken action to address the region’s particular set of circumstances and to tackle affordability problems. The company has a free debt helpline that helps customers to set up payment plans, it offers water metering and water conservation advice, and it recognises that many people are able to reduce their bills and to use water more efficiently by having a water meter.

I echo the words of my hon. Friend the Member for North Cornwall about Chris Loughlin and his team. I have worked closely with them, and they have an absolute and genuine determination to address the issues. South West Water works with local citizens advice bureaux and other experts, and it has introduced a range of initiatives to help those who find it difficult to pay their bills. It has established an advice gateway with south-west citizens advice bureaux and it trains and sponsors CAB debt advisers. Advice agencies such as the CAB can refer struggling customers to the company’s water care scheme and can obtain benefit entitlement checks, tariff checks, water efficiency advice and free efficiency devices.

South West Water also has a scheme for customers who are in debt, and I am very impressed by that work. I have been into households with advisers and seen the impact that they can have on the bills paid by people on low incomes just by installing a very few items or by changing those people’s behaviour, including what they do and how they use water throughout the day. That can have an enormous effect on household bills, but I recognise that, in this context, it might still be only a relatively small proportion of bills. In doing that, South West Water and companies with similar schemes have recognised the benefits to customers, and also to the company. I applaud such schemes, which are designed by water companies to tackle local problems in their region. Many companies in other Members’ constituencies have similar excellent schemes.

Water affordability problems are not confined to the south-west. Across England and Wales, 23% of households spend more than 3% of their disposable income on water and sewerage charges. Some 2.5 million households are spending more than 5% of their disposable income on water. That is a very important issue and one that the Government take very seriously. That is why water affordability will be a key theme in the upcoming water White Paper. We will commit ourselves to a long-term and a short-term set of actions to ensure that water bills are affordable.

WaterSure, to which my hon. Friend the Member for North Cornwall referred, will continue. It will be supported by social tariffs, which will enable water companies to design locally appropriate schemes. We believe WaterSure is really important, but we recognise that its criteria mean that it deals only with families who have a relatively large number of children—three or more—or with elderly or infirm people who require more water because of their circumstances. I have been persuaded by the many moving cases that have been put to me by colleagues about the circumstances of particular constituents.

I recognise the importance of WaterSure in addressing the concerns of those individuals, but I also recognise that about 50,000 people are currently claiming. WaterSure can therefore only ever help a small group of people in water need. That is why company social tariffs, on which we are consulting, are so important. When the consultation ends in January, we will quickly announce the guidelines for those enormously important tariffs.

[Dan Rogerson]

The Minister is being very helpful. On the groups who are covered by WaterSure, the south-west not only has many people on low incomes, but it has an ageing demographic because of the huge inward migration of older people and the outward migration of younger people. If WaterSure could be established with a national coverage, it would ensure that when people spend their active working life in another water region of the country and then end up in the south-west—I hope, to live a happy and long life in retirement—we had a fairer distribution of the cost. Otherwise, that will all have to be funded within the region.

[Richard Benyon]

My hon. Friend makes a very good point. However, the other important point to note is that the fact that the south-west has a much higher percentage of households on meters is good for those particular people, because they very often use much less water than larger families or households in multiple occupancy. That offers a really effective way not only of paying proportionally lower bills, but of managing problems—for example, they will know much sooner, if they are on a meter, if there is a leak. I applaud the work done by the company. We want to see such work developed not only in the south-west but elsewhere, and we will encourage that.

[Andrew George]

The Minister is speaking about the crux of what will no doubt appear in the water White Paper next year. The impact of the flat £50 per household reduction is welcome. It will apply irrespective of whether households are wealthy second home owners on water meters who therefore have relatively low bills or the large number of local families in straitened circumstances. It is those families for whom a nationally equitable solution is required because, despite the £50 reduction, they will still face considerable bills.

[Richard Benyon]

First, I can say to my hon. Friend that he will not have to wait until next year for the water White Paper, which is much more imminent. I cannot tell him precisely when, but it will be very soon. Secondly, the White Paper will examine the whole range of affordability issues and solutions. I hope that the package we introduce will make a real difference.

My hon. Friend and all Members who represent the south-west will recognise that that will require legislation, which is why I cannot promise that it will be delivered before April 2013. I wish it could, but we are convinced that primary legislation is required, although we hope to deliver it in time for the start of the financial year in April 2013.

Company social tariffs will allow water companies everywhere to reduce the bills of those who would otherwise be unable to afford them in full. In conjunction with the excellent existing support schemes and advice, companies will be able to design the right tariffs for their region. We want all companies to introduce social tariffs as part of a package of advice and support for customers about affordability and efficiency. I hope that hon. Members, advice organisations and environmental organisations will work with water companies to design the best schemes for their regions.

Before I conclude, I just want to express again my appreciation to hon. Members across the south-west for their efforts in bringing forward this matter, and my determination to continue this discussion in the future.

Oral Answers to Questions

Lord Benyon Excerpts

Thursday 24th November 2011 Commons Chamber

[Amber Rudd (Hastings and Rye) (Con)]

4. What recent discussions she has had with her EU counterparts on reform of the common fisheries policy.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon)]

As the UK fisheries Minister, I continue to have discussions about reform of the common fisheries policy with a wide range of people and organisations. They include the EU Commission, Members of the UK and European Parliaments and ministerial colleagues of other member states, as well as representatives of our fishing and related industries. I will continue to press our case for reform as negotiations develop in the Council and European Parliament.

[Amber Rudd]

I thank the Minister for that answer. His and the Government’s commitment to sustainable fisheries and sustainable fishing communities is well known and much appreciated. Is he aware of the real anxiety, shock and growing opposition from the smaller fisherman community to the transferable fishing concessions being proposed, given that this has been so damaging to smaller communities?

[Richard Benyon]

The fish in our seas are a national resource and what we are talking about, in the reform of this failed policy, is getting a fairer system for the allocation of that resource. Transferable fishing concessions in other countries are sometimes a lever towards better conservation, but I reassure my hon. Friend and fishermen in her constituency that we are not happy with the proposal that has been made thus far. We think it requires much more detail and there are certain elements of it to which we are opposed. We will keep her and the House informed at every stage.

[Mr Ben Bradshaw (Exeter) (Lab)]

Will the Minister accept that, however the common fisheries policy is reformed, the biggest threat to fish stocks in our waters and internationally is unsustainable commercial fishing? Given that, what is he doing to ensure that all public procurement of fish in this country, including by this place, is from sustainable sources?

[Richard Benyon]

I am pleased to report, if the right hon. Gentleman has not heard, that the Government are announcing Government buying standards at the highest level, commensurate with the Olympic standard, which is considered to be the relevant level of sustainability. Across Government, we will procure fish only from sustainable sources.

[Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)]

Will my ministerial Friend agree that one of the most exciting aspects of the proposed reforms is regional control? Will he strain every sinew to ensure that we end the exclusive competence of the EU in this regard and allow regional fisheries to control their own waters?

[Richard Benyon]

I entirely support the words of the Chairman of the Select Committee on Environment, Food and Rural Affairs. We have an opportunity to achieve something that we have failed to do for decades—a system that reflects local needs. It is absurd to have a common fisheries policy that from Brussels sets net sizes for fishing fleets around our coast. We have to have some form of regionalisation. We like the direction that the reforms are taking and we wish to see more detail in the coming weeks.

[Mr Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) (Lab)]

Is it not remarkable that in the space of a quarter of an hour the Government, who are supposed to be blazing a trail for bringing back things from the common market and the European Union, have already eliminated the repatriation of the common agricultural policy and, according to what the Minister just said, fisheries is not on the agenda, either? Are we not being led up the garden path?

[Richard Benyon]

It is always nice to hear from the hon. Gentleman with his cheery disposition so early in the morning. He probably did not hear my reply to the previous question, in which I said that we are talking about the repatriation of controls whereby countries around a sea basin will have greater management of our fisheries. The wider question about whether we should have a common fisheries policy at all probably is not for this forum but is, perhaps, for a higher pay grade. He is welcome to take part in the frequent debates that we have in the House on this matter.

[Natascha Engel (North East Derbyshire) (Lab)]

5. What her policy is on the use of electronic training aids for cats.

--- Later in debate ---

[Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab)]

11. What steps she is taking to curb the hunting of endangered species.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon)]

No native endangered species can be legally hunted in England. Although we cannot intervene directly in legal hunts of endangered species allowed by foreign Governments, the UK pushes for international co-operation through the convention on international trade in endangered species—CITES—in order to ensure that any trade in endangered species is sustainable. The UK also strongly supports the International Whaling Commission’s moratorium on commercial whaling.

[Kerry McCarthy]

Will the Minister therefore join me in condemning the trophy hunting of endangered and vulnerable species such as that carried out by the millionaire banker and Tory donor, Sir David Scholey, who was pictured in The Sun recently, posing by the bloody corpse of a lion under the headline “Who’s the bigger beast?”? Does the Minister condemn that?

[Richard Benyon]

We recently had a debate in Westminster Hall about lion trophies and importation to the UK. There are certain areas of Africa where lion populations give real cause for concern, and we are working through colleagues in CITES to ensure that the concerns in that debate and throughout the House are raised. Yes, I will condemn any hunting of an endangered species, for whatever reason, if it puts that species at risk, and this Government have responsibility for—

[Mr Speaker]

We are ever so grateful to the Minister.

[Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con)]

Does the Minister not agree that one of the best ways to prevent the illegal hunting of endangered species overseas is ever tougher controls on the illegal import of bush meat to the UK? What is he going to do to take that forward?

[Richard Benyon]

We are very concerned about bush meat and importation, and that is why we have protected funding for the work taking place at ports and airports, and for the expertise that we have, on the matter. There is also a very good case, which we have made in Britain, for being much stronger on the export or import of rhino horn which, as we know, is putting that species at very severe risk of extinction.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

T1. If she will make a statement on her departmental responsibilities.

--- Later in debate ---

[Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab)]

T3. When the Government’s long overdue water White Paper finally comes out, will the Secretary of State confirm that small businesses, not fat cat water utilities, will be at the centre of deregulation?

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon)]

The water White Paper will be published in the next few weeks. It will set out a way forward for the water industry that will encourage new entrants.

[Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con)]

T9. Currently we pay our farmers not to grow crops, but at the same time the world population is growing, and half the world is in need of food. What will my right hon. Friend do to end that scandal, so that our farmers can get back to what they do best: growing crops for this country and for the rest of the world?

--- Later in debate ---

[John Cryer (Leyton and Wanstead) (Lab)]

T7. The Minister has consistently said that the review of the common fisheries policy is a golden opportunity, and he has said the same again today. Will he therefore make a promise to the House that the British fishing fleet will be larger at the next election than it was at the beginning of this Parliament?

[Richard Benyon]

That would depend on there being more fish to catch. What we seek to achieve through a proper reform is conservation measures that we can manage much closer to home, which can lead to a recovery in fish stocks and therefore an increased opportunity for our fishing fleet. I want to see a reform of common fisheries policy that means that the sons and grandsons of fishermen can see a future, because they cannot at the moment.

[Mr Dominic Raab (Esher and Walton) (Con)]

Mandatory greening under new CAP reform proposals would remove a fifth of land on higher level stewardship farms from food production. What representations has the Secretary of State made to the EU Agriculture Commissioner about the damaging impact that that would have on food security in this country?

[Graeme Morrice (Livingston) (Lab)]

T8. Business groups have warned that the Government’s decision to delay the establishment of marine conservation zones will impede investment in marine industries, including renewable energy and sustainable fishery projects. Does the Secretary of State agree?

[Richard Benyon]

We are progressing the implementation of an ecologically coherent network of marine conservation zones, which have to be sustainable in every sense. That means that they have to be able to withstand any challenge that may be put to them, legal or otherwise, so we need to get more evidence for some of them. I can assure the hon. Gentleman that this Government remain absolutely determined to take this forward, but we need to get it right. If that means we have to take a month or two longer—or six months longer, to be perfectly accurate—that would be a better way than getting it wrong.

[Neil Parish (Tiverton and Honiton) (Con)]

This week has seen the launch of the ecosystems market taskforce. What are the practical implications of that?

Fisheries

Lord Benyon Excerpts

Tuesday 15th November 2011 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon)]

I commend the hon. Member for Aberdeen North (Mr Doran) and his colleagues on the all-party fisheries group for bringing this issue to the House, and the Backbench Business Committee for supporting it. This debate leads on well from our debate in May, which my hon. Friend the Member for Richmond Park (Zac Goldsmith) brought to the House, and if Members support the motion they will give me and the Government a mandate to continue our work to introduce some common-sense reform to a failed policy, and to take forward proposals that will greatly advantage the industry and our marine environment.

I should like to take this opportunity, however, to recall the six fishermen who have lost their lives this year in the line of their work at sea and in the harbour. We must remember the courage and sacrifice of individual fishermen, who put their lives in danger to bring food to our tables. Today is especially poignant, given our memory of Neil Murray, the husband of my hon. Friend the Member for South East Cornwall (Sheryll Murray), to whom many Members have referred, and I know that the House will wish to join me in sending sincere condolences to all those families and friends who have suffered losses.

I shall try to cover as many points as I possibly can. I shall not be able to cover them all, but at this vital time, as we move toward the December round and, of course, through the wider CFP reform negotiations, I remain absolutely willing to meet the all-party group of the hon. Member for Aberdeen North and any other groups of hon. Members.

The hon. Gentleman talked about the manifest failing of the common fisheries policy and found a ready audience in the House and, certainly, with me. He spoke about discards, as did several hon. Members, and it is important that our reforms on discards—I think that these were his words—reflect the reality of fishing. It is absolutely vital that we do so on a stock-by-stock, sea-basin and species-by-species basis and secure a workable result that delivers not just what the 700,000 people who signed up to the Fish Fight campaign want, but a sustainable solution for the fishing industry.

The hon. Gentleman spoke about the landing of black fish, and let the House be absolutely clear: those who land fish illegally are stealing fish from their fellow fishermen, so it is absolutely vital that we do all we can to crack down on that practice. He spoke also about regionalisation, as did a great many other Members, and about the welcome addition of the regional advisory councils in the 2002 reforms, and I absolutely agree that that is the basis on which we should talk, using a sea-basin approach to the management of our fisheries.

I want to see regionalisation work, but I concede the concerns, raised by hon. Members from all parties, that regionalisation in its current form could lead perversely to an increase in the Commission’s powers. That is not what we want, and we will push very hard to ensure that regionalisation is effectively that.

The hon. Gentleman and several others raised another point, about the proposed cuts in the December round to those stocks where there is data-deficiency. We won a very important argument in the Baltic round of negotiations last month, noting that the arbitrary 25% or 15% cuts on the basis of a lack of evidence was completely illogical. It results in more discards, in poverty and in people going out of business, and we won that point. It remains on the table for the December round, but the principle has been won and we will drive it home, because it is really important.

My hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Miss McIntosh), the Chair of the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee, made a very important point when she spoke about her Committee’s desire to see more work on marketing less popular fish. DEFRA is doing that. We set up the “Fishing for the Markets” project, and among other things we are undertaking a land-all scheme in North Shields. Indeed, we have been doing so for a long time—for well over a year—and it is paying dividends. As Members have pointed out, 54% of discards are nothing to do with quotas; they are species that are not eaten in this country.

[Mr Redwood]

Will my hon. Friend give way?

[Richard Benyon]

If my right hon. Friend will allow me, I will not, because I have only five minutes and a lot to get through.

My hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton mentioned the lobsters and brown crabs off the coast of her constituency, and I assure her that we are thinking again about that issue, because we want to ensure that we carry people with us and our measures work.

The hon. Member for Redcar (Ian Swales), my hon. Friends the Members for South East Cornwall, for Waveney (Peter Aldous) and others spoke about the under 10 metre plan, as did the hon. Member for East Lothian (Fiona O'Donnell), who spoke for the Opposition.

[Laura Sandys (South Thanet) (Con)]

Will my hon. Friend give way?

[Richard Benyon]

If my hon. Friend will forgive me, I really do not have time.

The important thing is that those reforms really work. A lot of work has gone into the issue, not just by this Government, I am first to concede, and the three pilots will be taken forward. My hon. Friend the Member for St Ives (Andrew George) said that there is enthusiasm in his constituency, as there is around the coast, to ensure that they work, and we are recruiting coastal liaison officers, who will assist people not only with managing their fishing opportunity or quota, but with marketing their catch and getting a better price for what they land.

[Mr Redwood]

Will the Minister give way?

[Richard Benyon]

I am sorry, but I shall not give way.

The hon. Member for North Ayrshire and Arran asked about marine conservation zones, and that represented the one note of discord in the debate, but I think that I can address it precisely. The hon. Member for East Lothian, who leads for the Opposition, asked me to take forward proposals on which there is no scientific basis or not enough of one to sustain them, but that position was not taken during the lengthy hours of debate, in Committee and on the Floor of the House, about provisions that became the Marine and Coastal Access Act 2009. Neither the Wildlife Trust nor anyone else took that position. What we will do—[Interruption]—and the hon. Lady would do well to listen to this—is obtain the evidence so that we can take forward an ecologically coherent network of marine conservation zones. I assure her that it will be something of which she can be proud—and so can we.

The hon. Member for North Antrim (Ian Paisley) spoke with concern about the displacement effect of scallops, and he is absolutely right: our management of one area of the seas will impact on another. I assure him that I take that issue very seriously.

We secured a review of the cod recovery plan a year ago, and I—naively perhaps—thought that it might have manifested itself by now, but unfortunately there will be dramatic cuts in days at sea unless we can improve it.

I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Broxbourne (Mr Walker) for his praise. There is a terrifying hidden threat when Members are nice to Ministers, because they are saying, “If you fail, boy do you fail” but I take his comments at face value and absolutely assure him that recreational sea angling is key to what we want to do—not just because of the enjoyment that it provides, but because of its social and environmental benefits and what it does for coastal communities.

The hon. Member for Great Grimsby (Austin Mitchell) mentioned the 25% and 15% cut, but I hope he is reassured that we are going to fight it. On the point that my hon. Friend the Member for Richmond Park made, I intend to get more management control out to 200 miles. With the marine conservation zones, it is vital that we get buy-in from the European Union, otherwise we might have the perverse case of conservation zones that are just for fishermen from the United Kingdom, not for those on vessels that fish from other parts of the EU.

Member states must be able to work regionally to develop management plans and to implement measures that are appropriate to their fisheries, but currently the proposals lack crucial detail on how regionalisation will work. I understand that there are legal constraints to devolving power, particularly to the regional level, but proposals must enable nations fishing in the same areas—often for the same fish, as Members have said—to come together and agree on how to manage their fisheries.

This debate is, of course, also important for allowing us to set out clearly that our partnership with fishermen, both in terms of science and how government works, is vital. This is a critical time for fisheries management and I am sure that the House shares my commitment and enthusiasm to take this once in a decade opportunity to overcome the structural failings of the CFP. It is a long and challenging road ahead, but the UK has a major role to play in influencing the new policy and, with negotiations under way, progress is being made.

However, there is a lot more we can and must do to deliver the reformed CFP that we want. We need continued engagement with the European Commission, other members states and the European Parliament to exert maximum influence throughout the negotiations. We also need to continue working closely with NGOs, fisherman, retailers, processors and others with an interest in fisheries and the marine environment to secure a policy that will deliver a real change for the future of fisheries and the marine environment. I hope that hon. Members will continue to support the Government’s view that fundamental reform of the CFP is required. I fully support the motion.

Marine Conservation Zones

Lord Benyon Excerpts

Tuesday 15th November 2011 Written Statements

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon)]

As part of the Government’s commitment to implementing in full the provisions of the Marine and Coastal Access Act, we are creating a network of national protected areas in British seas to ensure our underwater wildlife flourishes in years to come. We are clear that looking after the wildlife and habitat in our seas is just as important as looking after those on land.

The Government’s first step to identifying new marine conservation zones (MCZs) in English waters was taken forward through four regional MCZ projects managed by the statutory nature conservation bodies, who are Natural England and the Joint Nature Conservation Committee. The regional projects provided their recommendations for proposed sites for MCZs on 8 September. These have been reviewed by the independent science advisory panel (SAP) and their advice to the SNCBs and DEFRA is being published today on DEFRA’s website.

The Marine and Coastal Access Act requires the establishment of a network of conservation sites in the UK marine area. In English waters the network will comprise European marine sites, sites of special scientific interest, sites designated under the Ramsar convention and marine conservation zones (MCZs). The Act requires that the network must conserve or improve the UK marine environment and protect a range of representative features.

The regional MCZ projects have done excellent work in bringing stakeholders together and making site recommendations, but it is clear from the SAP’s advice that there are a number of gaps and limitations in the scientific evidence base supporting the MCZ recommendations.

It is important that we get this right. It is vital that we have an adequate evidence base for every site if we are to create successful well-managed MCZs. An adequately robust evidence base will be essential when we come to implement management measures.

DEFRA will therefore be commissioning significant additional work to support MCZ designation including an in-depth review of the evidence base for all the regional projects’ site recommendations and committing additional resources to carrying out seabed and habitat monitoring.

Protecting our marine environment is essential and the Government remain fully committed to establishing MCZs to contribute to an ecologically coherent UK network. However, the need to strengthen the evidence base for the MCZ recommendations means this is going to take longer than the ambitious target first put forward. We are likely to be able to designate some MCZs fairly quickly where the supporting evidence is adequate. However, for others we anticipate that more investigation will be needed before they can progress towards designation.

Natural England and the Joint Nature Conservation Committee will provide the MCZ impact assessment and their formal advice in July 2012. This is six months later than previously planned and this revised timetable will enable them to address the recommendations from the independent review of the evidence process for selecting marine Special Areas of Conservation (published July 2011) and take account of any further evidence obtained from the work that DEFRA is now commissioning. We will give careful consideration to all the advice received before undertaking formal public consultation on MCZs by the end of 2012. This consultation will include all sites recommended by the regional projects with clarity on how and when work on them will be taken forward. It is envisaged that the first MCZ designations will take place in 2013.

DEFRA and delivery partners will work together ensuring that early management measures are put in place to provide effective levels of protection for designated sites and continuing to build the evidence base for future designations. DEFRA will also take the opportunity, working with stakeholders and SNCBs, to look at other marine features which may benefit from spatial protection.

This phased approach to designation will also allow more scope to shape the English network taking account of sites being considered by the devolved Administrations and neighbouring member states.

Thames Tunnel

Lord Benyon Excerpts

Thursday 3rd November 2011 Written Statements

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon)]

On 7 September 2010, I outlined in a written statement, Official Report, column 9WS the Government’s support for Thames Water’s plans for a tunnel to reduce the amount of untreated waste water being discharged into the River Thames. I presented an estimate of the costs and impact on customers’ bills, which I said we would continue to scrutinise with Ofwat to ensure value for money. I said DEFRA would update the 2007 impact assessment and that I was minded to consider development consent for the tunnel under the regime for nationally significant infrastructure projects established by the Planning Act 2008.

My statement today reaffirms the Government’s support for Thames Water’s plans and reports on progress we have made since my last update. In particular, it provides an updated estimate for the overall cost and the likely completion date for a project of this size and complexity.

The need to upgrade the sewerage system in London which in places is running out of capacity even in dry weather, and for a solution to the resulting environmental challenges in the Thames Tideway remains persuasive. I will today place in the Libraries of both Houses a paper “Creating a River Thames fit for our future” summarising the strategic and economic case for the Thames tunnel. This builds on the impact assessment produced in 2007. It explains why we continue to believe that a tunnel represents the preferred solution for dealing with the untreated sewage that is polluting the River Thames.

Last year I reported the project costs for the Thames tunnel as £3.6 billion at 2008 prices. This was the cost of the project reported at what is known as the P80 level—that is, there is an 80% probability the project costs will be less than this figure based on probability modelling of cost risks. This figure excluded financing costs. Since then development of the construction plans has continued, more allowance has been made for a later completion date and in response to the first phase of public consultation by Thames Water, greater use of brown-field sites and river transport have been allowed for. The cost base has also been updated to 2011 prices and on this basis the estimates for the project costs are now £4.1 billion. They include £0.9 billion of risk allowance and optimism bias. These estimates have been examined by independent advisers on behalf of Ofwat and confirmed to reflect best practice in the industry. At this stage some uncertainties remain and the estimates will continue to be refined going forward.

Last year I also reported that the estimated average peak impact on annual customer bills was likely to be £60 to £65 in 2008 prices. This figure was based on the then estimate of project costs plus modelling of likely financing costs. Since then, in addition to the revised project cost outlined above, Thames Water has with Ofwat and my Department, made progress in developing the delivery route, risk management processes, and likely financing costs. They have also developed the modelling of the likely impacts on customer bills. This gives a central range for an average maximum annual customer bill impact of £70 to £80 at 2011 prices. The considerably uncertainty in this range reflects the impact that financing costs will have on bills and the difficulty in estimating these for a project of this nature and duration. Relatively small changes in the cost of capital for the project could have a significant impact on bills.

I understand the concern that Thames Water customers may have over this increase in their bills. DEFRA, with Ofwat, IUK, EA and Treasury, has been working closely with Thames Water to ensure that the engineering costs are minimised through value engineering, and that the project is delivered efficiently with a structure and financing mechanism that delivers value for money for customers. We will continue to do this and to ensure that there are no better value solutions that meet the need.

Financing a tunnel of this size at a cost that is value for money for customers is a challenge. The Government believe that the private sector can and should finance this project but accept that there are some risks that are not likely to be borne by the private sector at an acceptable cost. It is willing in principle to provide contingent financial support for exceptional project risks where this offers best value for money for customers and taxpayers. However, I will want to be assured that when offering this contingent support taxpayers interests remain a top priority and that the taxpayer is appropriately protected by measures that minimise the likelihood and impact of these exceptional risks.

On planning, we have completed a 12-week public consultation on proposed secondary legislation (Section 14 Order) which would classify proposed major sewer projects such as the Thames tunnel as nationally significant infrastructure projects (NSIPs). We are currently analysing responses. It will then undergo parliamentary scrutiny and an affirmative approval process. Following such approval, I would anticipate that a Section 14 Order could come into effect in the spring of 2012.

We have revised the draft waste water national policy statement in the light of responses to the public consultation and recommendations from the EFRA Committee. The NPS is to be used by the Infrastructure Planning Commission, or its successor, to guide its examination of development consent applications for waste water projects of national significance. We anticipate that the NPS will be laid before Parliament for approval later this year.

I am very conscious of the impact construction of the tunnel will have on local communities. Thames Water completed their first phase of consultation on the preferred route earlier this year and have amended some of their proposals in response. Tomorrow they launch the phase 2 consultation, which will be further opportunity for people to let their views be known. This consultation is with a view to submitting a planning application to the Infrastructure Planning Commission (or its successor body) in autumn 2012 and construction starting by 2016.

The initial time line for completion of the tunnel was 2020. However, as the parties have worked through the issues relating to planning, financing, procurement and regulation of the project it has become clear while construction time remains at six years, the 2020 date is unrealistic. On the basis of what is now known, and depending on the choices made as we go forward, completion of the construction of the tunnel is now expected to be between 2022 and 2023. We continue with Thames Water to explore how we can minimise the overall time scale.

I propose to provide a further update when we have agreed a delivery route with Thames Water and before they apply for development consent in the second half of 2012.

Parliamentary Question (Correction)

Lord Benyon Excerpts

Thursday 27th October 2011 Written Statements

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon)]

I should like to correct my response to a topical question on the application of the Freedom of Information Act to the new waterways charity (the Canal and River Trust) by the hon. Member for Chippenham (Duncan Hames) on 13 October, Official Report, column 471.

The Government are publicly consulting on the point raised by the hon. Member, and have not yet taken up a position on the matter. The consultation closed on 24 October, and we are now considering the consultation responses, prior to making a decision. A copy of the consultation document can be found at www.defra.gov.uk/consult/2011/09/12/waterways-1109/.

The Government will publish their analysis of the responses and their own response later in the autumn.

Environmental Protection and Green Growth

Lord Benyon Excerpts

Wednesday 26th October 2011 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon)]

May I thank the hon. Member for Wakefield (Mary Creagh) for tabling this motion? I could not have wanted a better form of words in order to extol the virtues of this Government and to point out the manifest failings of the previous one. If I had a better handle on the usual channels, as I think they are called, I might have got a member of the Backbench Business Committee to produce just such a motion, because it allows me to discuss some of the excellent things that we are doing to make this the greenest Government ever.

I start by apologising on behalf of the Secretary of State for the fact that she is not here. I know that many members of the Select Committee on Environment, Food and Rural Affairs would have liked to be here too. However, there is a courtesy, which the Secretary of State feels very strongly, which says that Select Committees are very important for holding Ministers to account. We took that view in opposition, and now we are in government we intend to ensure that we make ourselves available when Select Committees wish to question us at length.

With her customary generosity of spirit and her sunny nature, the hon. Member for Wakefield made a number of points about the Government, but perhaps failed to mention some of the good things. I hope she and the House will forgive me if I comment on the wording of the motion and on where we are moving forward. On environmental technologies, the hon. Lady did not feel the urge to mention the £3 billion that has been invested through the green investment bank, and she felt unable to talk about the vast amounts that that will generate in the private sector, or about the 26 million homes that will benefit from the green deal, which is the largest retrofit of infrastructure in our homes to benefit those on low incomes and make us a greener country.

The hon. Lady did not talk about the fourth carbon budget, which so many groups recognised and praised us for achieving, or about Ian Cheshire of the Kingfisher Group, who will be leading business opportunities for green growth. In this financial year alone, £1.7 billion has been invested in environmental technologies, creating 9,000 jobs all over the country.

[Mr Graham Stuart (Beverley and Holderness) (Con)]

The Minister is acutely aware of how devastated east Yorkshire was by flooding in 2007. One of the most worrying aspects of the Labour party manifesto was a promise to cut capital spending by 50%. Will he assure us that flood protection will get the required investment, and that this Government are committed to flood protection in a way that the Labour party were not before the last election?

[Richard Benyon]

Before the election, the previous Chancellor announced that there would be a 50% cut in DEFRA’s capital spend. If Labour had won that election, it might have said that it would not cut flood protection, but in that case, what would it have cut? The hon. Member for Wakefield used the tired old argument that if we are to compare apples with apples, we must compare this Government with the last two years of the previous one. However, in this four years, there is an 8% cut compared with the previous four years. Bearing in mind the cuts across the Government and the appalling legacy that we were left, we have made flooding an absolute priority.

[Huw Irranca-Davies]

I thank the Minister for giving way so early on. Will he correct the supposition of the hon. Member for Beverley and Holderness (Mr Stuart) that the previous Government said anything about cutting flood defence spending? We did not say that. I shall put that on the record again. The Minister is right that we would have to find the cuts somewhere, but we never indicated that they would come from flood defence, because of the impact that would have on people’s businesses, homes and, potentially, lives.

--- Later in debate ---

[Richard Benyon]

The hon. Gentleman forgets that a 50% cut in capital spending has to come from somewhere. I entirely accept that he might have said there would have been no cut to flood defence spending if Labour had won the election, but nobody believes that it would have survived in its entirety.

[Mary Creagh]

rose—

[Richard Benyon]

I shall make some progress, and then I shall certainly give way to the hon. Lady.

The hon. Lady talked about waste and recycling. It is reasonable for an Opposition to push a Government in certain directions, but they cannot just pluck a recycling target of 70% from the air, even though I would certainly aspire to such a target. However, recycling targets on their own are not a measure of how well a Government are doing. Instead, it is vital that we consider the matter in the round and that we push waste issues up the hierarchy. We cannot simply imagine a day when we could move to 70% recycling without getting the industry working properly with us to ensure that there are markets for recyclates and that we have an absolute plan, which is what we have done through our waste initiative.

[Joan Ruddock]

I remind the Minister that, in 2003, a private Member’s Bill that I introduced and which became an Act, imposed on local authorities a mandatory duty to recycle at least two waste streams, with a deadline of December 2010. What action did he take on the small minority of local authorities that did not comply last year?

[Richard Benyon]

We absolutely want to meet the EU’s waste reduction targets and the recycling targets, and we will certainly move towards 50%, but there are local factors to be considered.

[Joan Ruddock]

rose—

[Richard Benyon]

I am trying to answer the right hon. Lady.

Local factors apply. These matters can, and should, be dealt with locally, and local councils should be held accountable when they fail. I shall come on to that in a minute.

[Joan Ruddock]

I wonder whether the Minister heard me correctly. The duty is mandatory. What has he done with the local authorities that did not meet that mandatory target?

[Richard Benyon]

I shall get back to the right hon. Lady. [Interruption.] I am sure she understands that this is not an area of my brief, but the responsibility of my noble Friend Lord Taylor. However, I shall certainly get an answer to the right hon. Lady’s question.

[Mary Creagh]

I thank the Minister for giving way; he is being very generous. The five or six matters that he outlined at the beginning of his speech were not DEFRA issues; they come under the Department of Energy and Climate Change. I am glad that he has been joined by the Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change, the hon. Member for Bexhill and Battle (Gregory Barker). Does he support his hon. Friend’s proposal to introduce mandatory carbon reporting as soon as possible?

[Richard Benyon]

We are moving towards it, but I shall come on to that in a minute.

I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Beverley and Holderness (Mr Stuart) for his intervention on flood defences. We are talking about an 8% reduction in spending. That is the fair comparison. I know that the hon. Member for Wakefield was being flippant, but it identifies a problem in her party—that people do not have to thank her or her hon. Friend the hon. Member for Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies) for money spent on flood defences. This is taxpayers’ money, and it is vital that that taxpayers’ money is spent in the best possible way. We want to ensure that, over the next few years, we spend taxpayers’ money in the most effective way, because, as the hon. Lady correctly pointed out, we get a good return on taxpayers’ money if it is spent in the right way.

Our new partnership funding scheme will see the taxpayers’ pound going further. We are seeing efficiencies in the Environment Agency that mean that more houses and properties will be protected; and when we take our indicative list forward next year, I hope that many hon. Members’ constituencies will benefit from new schemes with new partnership funding that will bring benefits to those communities.

[Tony Cunningham]

I am not going to make a party political point; I want to look forward rather than backwards. Will the hon. Gentleman visit my constituency? Next month is the second anniversary of the devastating floods. If he agrees to come, he will get some criticism about the maintenance of rivers and streams, and so on, but he will also see for himself some of the superb work that local people have done.

[Richard Benyon]

As the hon. Gentleman knows, I have huge respect for the leadership that he showed at the time of the floods and for the work that he has done since to push me and my Department in various ways to improve the resilience of that community against flooding. I would be delighted to visit. I would also like to consult him on the development work that we are doing to create new internal drainage boards in the area to deal with precisely the issues that he has raised. I hope that we can ensure better flood resilience in future.

[Mary Creagh]

rose—

[Richard Benyon]

I will give way for the last time and then make some progress.

[Mary Creagh]

What I said was certainly not meant to sound arrogant; it was a debating point, made in jest to the hon. Member for Penrith and The Border (Rory Stewart), about the fact that his community had benefited from flood defences, yet he is now part of a Government who are cutting off those defences. Let me challenge the Minister again on the figures. He talks about an 8% cut to DEFRA spending, but can he name another area of Government accounting where spending has been calculated over the previous four years, instead of taking a baseline year which was the last year that Labour was in government? His figure of 8% is based on four years of previous spending compared with four years of future spending. No other Department is doing that; it is an example of funny DEFRA maths.

[Richard Benyon]

It is certainly not that; it is a sensible comparison. One cannot compare how the hon. Lady’s party behaved in government in the months and years preceding a general election with how it would behave now, when the Opposition have announced to the House how much they would have reduced spending. It is a tired old canard to keep up this talk about spending. She would be much better off looking forward and recognising that the new regime and policies that we are introducing will have a good effect.

The important point that the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Diana Johnson) made about insurance is something that exercises us greatly. We hope to make an announcement in the near future about how we will take forward the statement of principles after it concludes in 2013.

[Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con)]

My hon. Friend mentioned the Environment Agency earlier. I wonder whether he shares my concern about its failure to take action in my constituency against the discharge of raw sewage into a local brook and on to farmland. It has instead suggested a policy of co-operation and education with the group responsible for that behaviour. Will he agree to take an interest in this matter and resolve it quickly so that proper environmental protection is ensured?

[Richard Benyon]

I shall certainly look at that situation in my hon. Friend’s constituency. It is vital that we take action to clean up rivers. We have put £92 million more into the budget to try to improve the quality of the water in our rivers. Anybody who is polluting should be penalised, and that is what the Environment Agency is for.

[Rory Stewart]

rose—

[Richard Benyon]

I will give way once more before making some progress.

[Rory Stewart]

In fact, we have not experienced capital cuts in Cumbria; rather, the Environment Agency is being considerably more flexible than it was six or nine months ago, responding to communities and clearing out gravel. The progress is good under the current Government; I would like to put that on the record.

[Richard Benyon]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for making that point. The new partnership scheme will end the problem of communities failing, year after year, to get just above the line needed for their schemes to go ahead. There will now be clarity in the system, so that people can see exactly where they are on the scale and what needs to be geared up, by whatever means, for their scheme to get above the line.

May I express my admiration, in a perverse way, for the nerve of the hon. Member for Wakefield for mentioning the word “broadband” in the motion and in her speech? That is masterful chutzpah. I could ridicule her for it, but part of me secretly admires it from somebody in a party that did so little in government. This country was at the bottom of every conceivable league table, and the previous Government had a scheme that involved raising huge amounts of money from some kind of telephone tax that nobody thought would work. This Government have made the issue an absolute priority.

The hon. Lady is right to make broadband an issue in a green debate. Broadband allows people to work and learn from home, which reduces congestion. The Government also believe that this is a social inclusion issue, however. Broadband will assist people who are old, ill, mentally ill, out of work or on a low income, particularly those who live in remote communities, out of all proportion to any other factor in their lives. It is therefore absolutely right to include it in this debate, and I am very happy to talk about the investment that we are making, including the £530 million that is being spent through Broadband Delivery UK and the £20 million that has been geared up from DEFRA’s funds for the hard-to-reach in our most rural communities, as well as the £150 million recently announced by the Chancellor to assist the roll-out of mobile 4G access, which can provide coverage for broadband on mobile phone networks. That is also very good news.

The hon. Lady also made some interesting points about the five-point plan for growth and jobs, but it would simply add to the scale of debt. How can we deal with the debt problem by adding to it? Nothing should add to our debt. The shadow Chancellor’s five-point plan would not be a way of gearing up jobs and growth in the green economy or in any other. As in so many areas, Labour Members have absolutely no credibility when they talk about the economy.

[Kelvin Hopkins]

Spending more, particularly in labour-intensive areas such as those we are debating today, would generate far more, through the multiplier effect, than the original investment, which we would get back through taxation.

[Richard Benyon]

I do not want to get into a long economic debate, but the hon. Gentleman is right in one sense. Green growth, if we do it right, could create jobs. I am afraid that I do not agree with the suggestion by the hon. Member for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson) that this is an entirely binary issue involving either growth or the environment. The Government firmly believe that the two go together, and our policies reflect that.

The Government have an ambitious programme to protect and enhance our natural environment. Given the unprecedented financial difficulties, we cannot simply pull the financial levers to deliver change. Instead, we are committed to leading by example, being the greenest Government ever, mainstreaming sustainable development and enabling the value of the natural environment and biodiversity to be reflected when decisions are made. In the past 17 months, we have made good progress. We have a strong track record of environmental leadership, at home and internationally. We have published the national eco-system assessment, the first analysis of the benefits that the UK’s natural environment provides to society and to our continuing economic prosperity. This is ground-breaking research from over 500 UK scientists and economists, and the UK is the world leader in this regard.

[Mr Graham Stuart]

Does the Minister foresee a time when natural capital will form part of the national accounts in the same way that other capital assets now do?

--- Later in debate ---

[Richard Benyon]

My hon. Friend is prescient; I am about to come to that point.

We have published the cross-government natural environment White Paper, the first in 20 years. It seeks to put the value of nature at the heart of our decision making in Government, local communities and businesses, properly valuing the economic and social benefits of a healthy natural environment while continuing to recognise nature’s intrinsic value. It set out 92 commitments, and we published an update on progress earlier this month. This has made us a world leader in this field.

[Kerry McCarthy]

The Minister has just mentioned the natural environment White Paper. What does he think of the criticism of the White Paper, and of the “England Biodiversity Strategy: Biodiversity 2020”, by the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds, which stated recently that

“both are singularly lacking in implementation plans”,

and that

“we need more than fine words, we need a clear delivery plan and we need it soon”?

Are the Government not simply giving us more greenwash, to give the impression that they are the greenest Government ever?

[Richard Benyon]

I think the hon. Lady shows a churlishness that is not in her character. She is usually among the most generous of Members. May I suggest that she looks at the natural environment White Paper and its 92 commitments and understands how we are valuing nature as part of how government works. I am happy to quote the recent remarks of the Chancellor who said:

“we need to know what the problem is before we can set about finding a solution. Better and fuller information is a crucial…step towards promoting environmental sustainability.”

He was talking about accounting for sustainability, and getting natural capital hardwired into Government at every level has been a crucial part of taking forward this work through the natural environment White Paper, which I commend to hon. Members.

[Andrew George]

May I interpret the last intervention as a constructive contribution, indicating that the Labour party wishes to engage with the issue of biodiversity? Biodiversity standards fell during the 13 years of the last Government. All the parties need to work on the biodiversity strategy and, indeed, on the natural environment White Paper and attempt to improve those standards. That is what I believe all the parties should be doing in the forthcoming year.

[Richard Benyon]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend. Let me say with absolute clarity that we want to reverse the decline of biodiversity in this country, not just because we value nature in its esoteric sense, but because we value it in its economic sense as well. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and I are working with organisations like the RSPB and many others to try to ensure that the strategies we have brought forward are effective and workable. The indicators suggest that, with the right commitment, we can achieve this.

[Zac Goldsmith]

rose—

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Sheerman]

rose—

[Richard Benyon]

I have promised my hon. Friend the Member for Richmond Park (Zac Goldsmith), but if he will forgive me, I will give way first to the hon. Member for Huddersfield (Mr Sheerman).

[Mr Sheerman]

The Minister will know that Members of all parties care very much about the environment. I know we sometimes play games of point scoring, but one thing that the Minister should be very cautious about today is mentioning the name of the Chancellor. Members of all parties are worried about his recent remarks, as he seems to be undermining the green agenda that many of us thought was refreshing. The Minister, not us, brought up the point about the Chancellor.

[Richard Benyon]

I urge the hon. Gentleman, whom I respect on this subject, to look at exactly what the Chancellor is doing. He should look at the £3 billion that the Treasury has invested in the green investment bank and at the commitment we have made on a whole range of other issues. I can assure him that if he did, his concerns would be allayed.

[Zac Goldsmith]

Learning how to value ecosystems is a prerequisite for tackling the loss of biodiversity and the environmental crisis generally. I am not often accused by colleagues of sycophancy, but I do want to say that the work in the natural environment White Paper puts us ahead of almost any other country in the world. It is work that should be absolutely commended and celebrated across the board.

[Richard Benyon]

I am very grateful to my hon. Friend, and I hope that Labour Members were listening to what he said.

[Gavin Shuker (Luton South) (Lab/Co-op)]

rose—

[Richard Benyon]

I will give way, but then I want to make some progress.

[Gavin Shuker]

The Minister is extremely generous in allowing interventions. I was initially trying to be well behaved and not to intervene on him, but I would like to echo the comment that the natural environment White Paper is fine in and of itself. There will be consensus about biodiversity—an issue about which I believe the Minister feels strongly—across the House. The key issue, however, is resource. There are many environmental and local groups applying to get funding to do the things that are set out in the White Paper, but only £7.5 million has been put behind it.

[Richard Benyon]

The hon. Gentleman is talking about our nature improvement areas, and I would be happy to talk further to him about them and about the level of our ambition, which exceeds that of the previous Government. There is no money left, as someone once said when he left a note in a desk. I have to remind the hon. Gentleman of that, but we have made biodiversity and reversing its decline an absolute priority—both for this Department and the Government.

[Sammy Wilson]

Will the Minister give way?

--- Later in debate ---

[Richard Benyon]

I am sorry, but I really must make some progress.

We will shortly publish our White Paper on water, which will set out how we want to reform the water industry and address the need for resilience to drought and climate change. A few weeks ago I stood on the bed of the River Kennet, which was as dry as the carpet in the Chamber. It is one of the “rivers on the edge” identified by the World Wildlife fund and is one of the most precious ecosystems in the south of England, although there are many more. Many Members represent constituencies where there are serious concerns about the decline of river quality. We will explain in the water White Paper how we seek to address the problem. We will consider not just the narrow issues involved in that particular stretch of water, but the entire catchment. We will take account of the calls on water, the loss of water from those precious ecosystems, and how we can manage the situation in future.

[David Wright]

Will the Minister give way?

[Richard Benyon]

If the hon. Gentleman will forgive me, I will make a bit of progress. Many other Members wish to speak in the debate.

We are implementing the Marine and Coastal Access Act 2009, which was mentioned earlier, and creating new marine conservation zones around our coast. Let me tell those who talk of the checklist that may have found its way into the motion that that item is flagged as a red, and is very much ongoing. We are adhering to the timetable that was set by the hon. Member for Ogmore when he was a Minister. We are determined to complete the task, and to create an ecologically coherent network of conservation zones around our coast.

[Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab)]

Will the Minister give way?

[Richard Benyon]

Is it a quick one?

[Paul Flynn]

It is a question that involves all the devolved Assemblies, especially the Welsh Assembly, where all parties are enthusiastic about marine development, but are hamstrung by restrictions that prevent them from organising even pilot projects in Pembrokeshire without the say-so of the national Government. Is it not time that the Government put their devotion to localism into action, and allowed the Assemblies to implement robust environmental policies?

[Richard Benyon]

I am afraid that I simply do not recognise that situation. We met Ministers from the devolved Assemblies this week, and discussed the way in which we are approaching the management of our seas and other policies, in the context of Europe but also nationally. I have worked closely with those Ministers, but I have heard none of them suggest that our parliamentary activities are limiting their ability to control their own environments.

We have also successfully defended the moratorium on commercial whaling. Many may not consider that to be a massive issue, but our constituents certainly do, and I think that the House should recognise the excellent work done by DEFRA officials. I bear the scars on my back from attending two meetings of the International Whaling Commission, and the fact that the British Government have led in making that organisation fit for the 21st century is to our credit. We have contributed £100 million to protect international forests, and the Secretary of State is working closely with Brazil to secure the best use of those funds. As we build on the wonderful achievements made in Nagoya we see real benefits, and Britain’s standing in regard to those and other issues in the international forum has been enhanced in recent months.

The Government’s economic policy objective is to achieve strong, sustainable and balanced growth that is more evenly shared across the country and between industries. The Treasury is committed to that, and has made important progress on a range of green initiatives. It has fulfilled the Government’s commitment to introducing a carbon price floor—a world first—as the basis of an innovative and economically ambitious green policy. This year’s Budget outlined the Government’s commitment to green investment, making £3 billion available for the green investment bank over the next four years. That will provide a lever for £15 billion of private investment in green technologies, a fact that was tragically missing from the speech of the hon. Member for Wakefield.

[Nicholas Soames (Mid Sussex) (Con)]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way.

--- Later in debate ---

[Nicholas Soames]

I apologise to the House and to the Minister for asking to intervene when I have only just arrived. I hope that the House will forgive me. I have been at a meeting of the 1922 Committee.

I congratulate my hon. Friend on the work that he has been doing. May I ask him to cast a particular eye over the very serious environmental problem of the gross over-extraction of water from rivers in general and in particular from chalk streams, which are waters of international renown and importance in this country? Will he tell us what level of extraction he considers acceptable?

[Richard Benyon]

I have already said that we will address that in the near future in the water White Paper. We are determined to comply with directives, because that is what we all have to do, but we are also more ambitious, in that we want our aquatic environment to be restored. That legacy will be difficult to achieve, but we can achieve it. We can secure huge improvements in biodiversity and ecosystems by just making some changes. It is not easy to change abstraction when large numbers of people rely on the water in question for their daily lives, but this can be done, and it will be done under this Government.

[David Wright]

What discussions has the Minister had with Department for Communities and Local Government Ministers about the use of grey water produced in urban environments? That is of key importance. The right hon. Member for Mid Sussex (Nicholas Soames) made a good point about the level of water abstraction in the UK, but what we are not very good at—whereas other countries in the European Union and around the world are good at this—is using grey water in the built environment and recycling it.

--- Later in debate ---

[Richard Benyon]

The hon. Gentleman makes a good point. We are determined to address this issue from both ends of the pipe, as it were. We must look not only at abstraction and how we can incentivise water companies to share water with neighbouring companies, but at how we can incentivise and encourage individuals and households. A recent “Panorama” programme showed what can be achieved by households; by doing just a few things, they can reduce the amount of water they use and protect the environment.

[Ian Swales (Redcar) (LD)]

Does the Minister intend to look at building regulations, on which the UK is decades behind some other European countries, particularly in respect of the reuse of water?

[Richard Benyon]

We are consulting DCLG colleagues on that and a variety of different issues. I recently visited the Building Research Establishment at Watford. Amazing work is being done there on grey-water systems and how households can use much less water. We want to take those ideas forward, and we will keep the House informed as we do so.

[Mr Graham Stuart]

On the green investment bank, may I point out that the largest manufacturing area outside London is Yorkshire? A quarter of the nation’s energy is produced in Yorkshire. Yorkshire stands ready—manufacturers, councillors, universities—to work with the green investment bank. Will the Minister give us more details of what exactly it will be doing, and what role Yorkshire can play in making sure we take forward the green revolution?

[Richard Benyon]

My experience in this House is that Yorkshire MPs believe that life starts and finishes in Yorkshire, and I am sure the green investment bank will find a way of investing in my hon. Friend’s constituency—and elsewhere. We will come to the House with more details in the near future.

We were talking earlier about whether the concepts of green and growth were complementary or at odds with each other. We firmly believe they are complementary. The environment is an economic issue. Better management of natural resources is a financial and environmental opportunity. That is recognised by the Government and leading businesses. The waste review and the natural environment White Paper underline that by putting resource efficiency and the natural environment at the heart of economic growth.

Broader initiatives either already delivered or in the pipeline include electricity market reform, the renewable heat incentive and the green deal, which is the largest retrofit project. The Government also have an initiative, “Enabling the transition to a green economy”, which is being led by the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, DECC and the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills. It brings together under one heading all of our ambitions and plans for moving towards a green economy.

To help in that, we have set up the Green Economy Council, chaired by the Secretaries of State for BIS, DEFRA and DECC, which brings together more than 20 business leaders from leading businesses and business groups ranging from Ford to Waitrose. It provides an open forum for business to work with Government to address the challenges of creating the green economy and to facilitate growth opportunities.

I wish to highlight two ways in which we are hard-wiring natural capital across government, and I referred to that in passing earlier. We are working with the Office for National Statistics to include natural capital in the UK environmental accounts. We are also setting up a natural capital committee—an independent advisory committee reporting to the Economic Affairs Committee—to provide expert advice on the state of England’s natural capital. We will be advertising for a chair and members this year.

That develops one of the key objectives put forward by GLOBE International—my hon. Friend the Member for Beverley and Holderness and the hon. Member for Brent North (Barry Gardiner) are such able vice-chairmen for that organisation. We are also establishing a business-led ecosystems market taskforce to review the opportunities for UK business from expanding green goods, services, products, investment vehicles and markets, which value and protect nature’s services.

I shall now move on to more specific issues. Earlier this year, we published our waste review, which is a comprehensive look at prevention, reuse, recycling, recovery and disposal, aiming for a zero-waste economy. It provides a broader picture than recycling targets and sets us on a path towards a greener, more innovative economy that values waste as a resource and an opportunity for jobs.

[Joan Ruddock]

May I make a suggestion to the Minister? He will know that the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government is going to make millions of pounds available to local authorities to return to weekly collections, which they departed from in order to boost recycling. As the Minister will know, food is one of the main issues to deal with, so why does he not make representations to the Communities Secretary to say that money should be provided to those local authorities, such as my local Lewisham council, that have weekly collections but could expand, if they had the money, into food collections? That would have enormous benefits, including job creation.

[Richard Benyon]

The right hon. Lady is right to say that there are huge benefits if we get this right. We are working not only to deal with food waste—to encourage people to buy less and to waste less food—but to make sure that what waste food there is can be used in a constructive way. That is why our policies on anaerobic digestion have huge potential, not just for a municipal approach to this issue, but, for example, for the farming industry as a way of diversifying its business. So I assure her that we are talking, and will continue to talk, to people right across government to ensure a joined-up approach. I respect her knowledge on this matter.

I spoke earlier about broadband, but I wish to emphasise that it is an absolute priority for this Government, as it will make the difference to our rural community. Our economy will be enhanced in a sustainable way for the future when we are able to have creative industries operating in remote parts of the country.

We expect to be able to deliver better flood and coastal erosion protection to 145,000 households by March 2015. Despite spending reductions, no schemes have been cancelled. That is an important point for the hon. Member for Wakefield to understand. We expect to spend at least £2.1 billion on tackling flooding and coastal erosion over the next four years. We expect to spend this money better than it has been in the past and to do so in an open way, where local communities can really see how it is operating.

On mandatory carbon reporting for companies, we have consulted widely over the summer on whether we should introduce regulations in this area. We need to be clear that these regulations are the best way forward, and the Secretary of State will announce the outcome to the House this autumn.

To conclude, the Government are proud of what we have achieved thus far. We have been in government for only 17 months and there is a huge amount to achieve, but I am certain that we can achieve it. I ask the House not to support the motion, because I believe that what I have told the House this afternoon has shown that we are ambitious for more and that we can achieve enormous benefits for our economy by thinking in terms of the environment and the economy together. We hope to do that as we move forward.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

--- Later in debate ---

[Richard Benyon]

With the leave of the House, Madam Deputy Speaker, I will address the House again at the conclusion of this superb debate. The last comments made by the hon. Member for Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies) amused me greatly. They sounded desperate. They sounded as if he was in complete denial of the 13 years of failure, of which he was part. I, like my DEFRA colleagues, feel that we are in a Department that deals with emergencies. One of the emergencies we are dealing with is the great sense of failure that the previous Government imposed on the countryside and on the environment. We are having to work our socks off to repair the situation, but it is a challenge that we take and take seriously. We look forward to achieving on it in the coming months.

The Government can show leadership in protecting our environment, which is exactly what this Government are doing. However, the Government alone cannot protect our environment. We believe that having communities, business, civil society and Governments working together is likely to have the greatest impact on protecting and improving our environment. We are providing new opportunities for local people to play a bigger role in protecting and improving the environment in their areas. We have some of the world’s best civil society environmental organisations to help us to protect and improve our natural environment, and we have provided the tools for them to work with us.

[Caroline Lucas]

rose—

[Richard Benyon]

No, I will not give way.

We welcome the “Nature Check” report. It is very important that the organisations that took part in it have an edgy relationship with government. They frequently come to the Department and we work closely with them, and we will get green lights on the items as we progress. When that report was produced we had been in government for 15 months, dealing with abject failures created by the hon. Member for Ogmore and the Labour party in government, for which he has to take responsibility.

Let me deal with some of the excellent points made in the debate. The hon. Member for Edinburgh East (Sheila Gilmore) was missing the point. Just dealing with recycling does not deal with the whole waste problem; we need to look at this the whole way up the waste hierarchy. Unlike her Government, we will introduce proposals to ban wood from landfill next year.

I compliment my hon. Friend the Member for Penrith and The Border (Rory Stewart) on a customary visionary speech. The leadership he is giving in his community on broadband, on local housing initiatives and on improving mobile coverage for his constituents is matched by this Government’s commitment to do the same for rural areas right across this country.

The hon. Member for Scunthorpe (Nic Dakin) again showed that Labour Members just do not get the whole waste issue. I urge him to look at our waste review and see what we are achieving.

My hon. Friend the Member for Suffolk Coastal (Dr Coffey) made an excellent speech in which she pointed out the failure of Labour councils. It is councils that deliver and it is coalition party councils that are achieving.

[Huw Irranca-Davies]

Will the Minister give way?

[Richard Benyon]

I shall not give way because the hon. Gentleman has had his time. [Interruption.]

When we consider flooding, the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Suffolk Coastal is in my head because it has proved that there are other ways—[Interruption.]

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)]

Order. I am sorry to interrupt the Minister, but there is far too much noise in the Chamber, including a large number of private conversations. The Minister must be heard without his having to bellow at the top of his voice.

[Richard Benyon]

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.

There have been some excellent initiatives all around the country, not least in my hon. Friend’s constituency, that have shown how we can unlock more money for flood relief and coastal erosion resilience. I commend the points she made. The total environment concept that we are rolling out around the country is showing that we can work with local government, other organisations and the wider DEFRA family to achieve a better result for the rural communities she represents.

I remind the hon. Member for North West Durham (Pat Glass) that when her party was in power it was selling off forests at quite a dramatic rate with very little protection for public access. She said that we have rejected the Pitt report, but nothing could be further from the truth: we have implemented all but one of its recommendations and I had a meeting on that recommendation today.

I appreciated the contribution of my hon. Friend the Member for St Ives (Andrew George). There is much that is consensual about this debate although it might not feel like it at this precise moment. My right hon. Friends and I had a meeting with Sir John Beddington when we took office and he told us that we had to do something that is hard for politicians to do—look beyond the horizon of four or five years that we are accustomed to looking at in the electoral cycle. What is required is a horizon shift to deal with the possible storm that could be approaching from a shortage of energy, water and food. That requires initiative, vision and a proper approach to these issues; that is what we are doing.

The hon. Member for Swansea West (Geraint Davies) made a fascinating speech. It is good to see that deficit denial is alive and well and living in Swansea. What he and others fail to understand is that sustainable development is now mainstream in government; it is not parked in some organisation that is peripheral—it is central to what we do.

I appreciate the comments of my hon. Friend the Member for Stroud (Neil Carmichael). He is right that what we are looking for is joined-up policies across government. The benefits of localism come from an understanding not just in silos, as it was considered in the past, but with support from across government to the benefit of constituents.

I hope that the scepticism of the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) about the green investment bank will wither as we introduce it and she sees its benefits for new green technologies. She talked about business as usual, but this Government are not about business as usual on green technologies. This is about a horizon shift and taking a new approach.

[Caroline Lucas]

Will the Minister give way?

[Richard Benyon]

I do not have time—I apologise.

My hon. Friend the Member for Warrington South (David Mowat) made an excellent point about the failures of the past that have put us 25th out of 27 in the EU on recycling. We have to improve on that. People ask what our ambition is: it is for a zero-waste economy, which is a high ambition indeed.

The hon. Member for Bristol East (Kerry McCarthy) talked about dark conspiracies, but I assure her that they do not exist. She should move on from that idea and stop watching those programmes.

[Mr Alan Campbell (Tynemouth) (Lab)]

claimed to move the closure (Standing Order No. 36).

Question put forthwith, That the Question be now put.

Question agreed to.

Question put accordingly (Standing Order No. 31(2)), That the original words stand part of the Question.

The House divided: Ayes 222, Noes 302.

Dangerous Dogs

Lord Benyon Excerpts

Wednesday 19th October 2011 Westminster Hall

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Coventry North West (Mr Robinson) on raising this important subject. When the Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Member for South East Cambridgeshire (Mr Paice) replied to the debate on dangerous dogs in July, which was introduced by my hon. Friend the Member for Romsey and Southampton North (Caroline Nokes), he made it clear that the Government were sympathetic to hon. Members in all parts of the House who feel that the existing law is in need of an overhaul.

The Government recognise the difficulties faced by those who find themselves in the front line dealing with irresponsible dog ownership in communities. No one can fail to be shocked by the savagery described by the hon. Member for Coventry North West, the savagery of dog attacks that we have all seen in the media and by the several deaths in the past few years that have been mentioned by hon. Members. We understand the very real concerns about safety and the impact on communities. We also recognise the immense pressure on dog rescue centres as they see an ever-increasing rise in the number of Staffordshire bull crosses—so-called status dogs. I wish that we could somehow get away from using that phrase, as it indicates some sort of status for the people who use dogs in a malign way. Calling them “stupid people’s dogs”, or something like that, might be more relevant. Very often, these dogs are cruelly abandoned by their owners, and we often forget that in this debate.

There are no easy answers to this problem. We do not want to rush into changes to the existing law without giving thought as to whether they will work. We want to be sure that any changes will have a real impact on reducing instances of irresponsible dog ownership, particularly dog attacks.

I would like to update the Chamber on the progress made since July, and I hope that that will answer the point raised by the hon. Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge (Angela Smith). Ministers and officials have continued to work across Government and with key stakeholders such as the police, local authorities, the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, the Dogs Trust, Battersea Dogs and Cats Home and the Kennel Club. Contrary to what has been said, those organisations do not all share precisely the same view on how the law should be changed. Indeed, differences have been suggested in the Chamber today. However, they have all been very helpful in letting us know their views and helping us to refine our thinking about what should be done.

As the consultation that the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs held last year showed, the issue of dangerous dogs covers a range of concerns, from thoughtless and irresponsible ownership, up to deliberately using a dog as a weapon to intimidate and harass others. As a result, a number of agencies and interested parties are involved. Earlier this year, the Home Office concluded a consultation on a more effective approach to antisocial behaviour. That new approach is intended to reform the toolkit available for tackling antisocial behaviour, including that relating to dogs.

When launching the consultation, the Home Secretary made it clear that the Government expect everyone to have a right to feel safe in their home and in their neighbourhood. She said that antisocial behaviour should be a priority for local agencies, including police, councils and social landlords. She underlined the fact that we need a new approach to problems that are fundamentally local. The proposals include streamlining the toolkit used to tackle antisocial behaviour, so that police and partners have faster, more flexible and more effective tools; sweeping away a swathe of statutory powers, so that the police have simple, intelligible powers that they can use when necessary; and giving victims and communities the right to force the authorities to take action, where the authorities have failed to do so.

I realise that there are concerns that a simpler approach by the Home Office will somehow overlook the problem of dogs being used to intimidate others, but that is simply not the case. Ministers and officials are continuing to work closely with the Home Office to ensure that dogs are not overlooked in the new framework and that the police, local authorities and local communities continue to be able, where appropriate, to develop their own solutions to dog problems that do not necessarily involve the courts and criminal sanctions. That may answer the point made by the hon. Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge. In the next month, we expect the precise details from the Home Office about how it feels this should be taken forward. We will then be able to involve that in what we are saying.

[Mrs Sharon Hodgson (Washington and Sunderland West) (Lab)]

Will the Minister cover the issue of private property and the loophole in the law that allows 4,000 postal workers to be attacked without any prosecution being brought?

[Richard Benyon]

I am coming on to that precise point. Ministers have made it a priority to see how this issue is being dealt with on the ground in the communities that are affected. We are keen to learn the lessons of what works—and what does not—from local projects in areas where there is a high incidence of dog-related problems. Our view is that local action is key to tackling the problem of irresponsible dog ownership. We are keen to support local people, charities, the police and local authorities, so that they can jointly tackle local issues. We are also looking at what more Government can do to support the police, local government and the courts in dealing more effectively with dog problems. We have already facilitated the production of guidance for the police, the courts and the public. We have also provided financial support for the training given by the Association of Chief Police Officers to police dog legislation officers. Ministers are keen that we build on this support in future.

[Andrew Rosindell]

Will the Minister give way?

[Richard Benyon]

If my hon. Friend will allow me, I am coming to the point that he raised earlier.

A number of people support the idea that if breed-specific legislation is not repealed, then owners should be allowed to apply to the courts to have the dogs added to the index of exempted dogs. I want the police to have the final say on whether a dog is seized, and there may also be scope for not kennelling other types of dogs that are not a danger. In all cases, the police would need to be satisfied that the dogs are in the care of a responsible owner. That idea would undoubtedly save money for the police who, under the existing law, must first seize the dog pending the outcome of court proceedings. However, we also need to consider whether such a proposal would allow for the public safety factor of each application to be properly considered.

On the point raised by the hon. Member for Washington and Sunderland West (Mrs Hodgson), another proposal under consideration is to extend the criminal law on dangerous dogs to all private property. That would allow the police to investigate dog attacks on private property, and we have sympathy with that desire. That may, on the face of it, be an easy thing to do, but we should consider the effects of, say, a trespasser with criminal intent who is attacked by the home owner’s dog. Do we really want a trespasser successfully prosecuting a home owner because the home owner’s dog has acted in a way that many people would consider only natural? I point that out as just one example of where it is not a simple binary decision. There are some major implications in extending the law into the home. Before going down this route, we would need to be sure that all the potential risks are understood and can be addressed, but I assure the hon. Lady that we get the problem and are very keen to move position, which I think all hon. Members would—

[Mr Robinson]

The Minister said a moment ago that not all organisations agree about every detail—that is true, and they never will. However, what everybody agrees on is the extension of criminal law, and everybody agrees with a natural exemption if there is a trespasser or a burglar. That happens in all criminal law. It is not a real problem, unless the Minister wants to make it one. We have no timetable for any sort of legislation to deal with the issue.

[Richard Benyon]

We are mindful of that point. We believe that we can get through it, but it indicates how the issue is not straightforward.

Turning to the point made by my hon. Friends the Members for Romford (Andrew Rosindell) and for Romsey and Southampton North about microchipping, I worked closely with my hon. Friend the Member for Romford on this issue before the election. There are obvious side benefits to the compulsory micro-chipping of dogs, one of them being the ability to identify the owner of a dog that has become dangerously out of control even if the owner is not present at the time of the incident. Better traceability of owners could discourage them from letting their dogs run loose, and hence reduce the likelihood of attacks. However, I consider that the principal benefit is that it would enable the police, local authorities and rescue centres to reunite lost and stolen dogs with their owners. It may also help where dogs have been stolen, which is a big issue in my constituency. That is an important step forward, and one that I believe that we can support, but would it reach the problem owners we are talking about? That is a fundamental point that we have to consider.

[Michael Connarty]

Will the Minister give way?

[Richard Benyon]

With respect to the hon. Gentleman, I have just a few seconds left, and I want to say that the Government take this issue very seriously. It is a complex issue that spans many areas of undesirable behaviour from thoughtless and irresponsible dog owners.

Marine Management Organisation

Lord Benyon Excerpts

Tuesday 18th October 2011 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Truro and Falmouth (Sarah Newton) on securing the debate on such an important issue for her constituents. I thank other hon. Members for their contributions.

The Marine Management Organisation was created just 18 months ago, with cross-party support. As a non-departmental public body, it carries out its function with technical expertise, impartiality and transparency, and at arm’s length from Ministers, but it is accountable to both Ministers and Parliament. At the outset, I pay tribute to the MMO and to its staff. Its remit is very diverse. It continues to mature and is tackling a range of challenging issues. It manages our fisheries; it is delivering marine planning; it is working with others to create and manage a network of marine protected areas and to carry out marine licensing. Within its broad remit, the MMO is required to manage its activities with the objective of making a contribution to sustainable development, in a consistent and co-ordinated manner and taking account of all relevant facts and matters.

The MMO’s decisions should be impartial and based on best available evidence, taking into account the potential benefits and anticipated adverse impacts. It also needs to ensure that its decisions comply with statutory requirements under UK and EU legislation and are consistent with our international obligations. All that sounds straightforward in theory, but the decisions that the MMO has to make, whether about opening and closing fisheries, licensing construction or applications to the European fisheries fund have real-world impacts and directly affect people’s livelihoods, something that I believe the MMO is acutely aware of. The MMO will never be able to please all the people all the time, and decisions will sometimes adversely affect some more than others, but for that reason the MMO stresses the importance of transparency and impartiality. The MMO has been exemplary in ensuring that the information it bases its decisions on is publicly available, and it is helpful for people to be able to see how it makes its decisions, particularly when they are relatively controversial.

One cornerstone of the 2009 Act was to introduce a streamlined licensing system and marine planning in order to contribute to the sustainable development of our seas. That streamlined licensing system was introduced in April, the first marine plans will be in place in 2013 and, to guide the MMO, DEFRA has produced statutory guidance on sustainable development. It refers to the UK marine policy statement, which was adopted in March as the framework for planning and decision making in the marine environment in order to ensure a consistent approach throughout the UK and to contribute to sustainable development.

At the same time, DEFRA produced the description for the marine planning process in England so that the MMO could take it forward and produce subsequent guidance on how marine planning will work, and it is an absolute priority of this Government to ensure that, when we view our seas, we do so holistically. For too long we have looked down the silos of fisheries, conservation or marine licensing, but now, at last, we are developing the means to look at the marine environment as a whole. That is long overdue, and it will assist the constituents of my hon. Friends and others, who at the moment have to follow an entirely application-led process. Marine planning, like terrestrial planning, will be a great advantage to them.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

The hon. Gentleman refers to involvement with other parts of the United Kingdom, and there is an impact on the devolved Administrations of Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales, because they have responsibility for fishing, so can he confirm that he will consult the devolved Administrations to ensure that there is a uniform approach to fishing?

--- Later in debate ---

[Richard Benyon]

I make it my business to confer with my devolved colleagues regularly, and I will do so on Thursday and Friday in Luxembourg and with the Northern Ireland Minister and other devolved Ministers in Newcastle in the very near future. I can assure the hon. Gentleman that I make it my business to ensure that we, as a UK group of Ministers, talk together and recognise that we cannot look at our seas just in terms of the countries that make up the United Kingdom; we have to look at them holistically.

My hon. Friend the Member for Truro and Falmouth mentioned the appeals process, and one important feature of the new licensing system is the introduction of just such a process. An applicant for a marine licence will be able to appeal against a decision made by the licensing authority on their application. That includes a decision not to grant a licence, conditions attached to a licence or the length of a licence, and the Planning Inspectorate—PINS—will manage and decide appeals against licensing decisions made by the licensing authority.

We have closely aligned our processes to those for terrestrial planning appeals, as we expect there to be benefits in developing a system that is consistent with current practice. For example, a familiar process should be easier for PINS to implement and for appellants to understand and follow.

Similarly, for marine planning, as my hon. Friend said, there will be the option for independent investigations of a marine plan, and PINS will carry out those, too. Should an independent investigation be needed, it will take place after the consultation on a proposed marine plan and before adoption by the Secretary of State.

Clarity, transparency and the involvement of as many stakeholders and communities as possible are important in marine planning and licensing. Similarly, although the MMO relies on advice from Natural England and the Joint Nature Conservation Committee as statutory consultees when making many of its decisions, it none the less draws on a wider evidence base in delivering its work. Naturally, this includes research commissioned by DEFRA and carried out by the Centre for Environment, Fisheries and Aquaculture Science and many other expert organisations, as well as studies commissioned directly by the MMO.

Indeed, the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport (Oliver Colvile) is a well-known international hub of expertise in marine science, and precisely those resources are available to and used by the MMO for the evidence that it needs. It is essential that it should be able to have access to the best information available, including information submitted during public consultations. I can give my hon. Friends the absolute assurance that, in our reviews of the performance of the MMO, we will ensure that it is taking all the best evidence available and is not only listening to the statutory conservation bodies but registering a serious attempt to widen its reach in terms of the advice it receives.

My hon. Friend may also wish for some clarification of the marine conservation zone process. The identification of MCZs has been stakeholder-led operation from the outset, managed by the statutory nature conservation bodies, Natural England and the JNCC. The statutory nature conservation bodies established four regional MCZ projects—Balanced Seas, Finding Sanctuary, Net Gain and the Irish sea conservation zones—and these provided advice about which MCZs should be brought forward. I can tell hon. Members, if they have not witnessed it, that it has been a tortuous process with many hours of work, and it has brought forward some suggestions at this stage.

Each project established stakeholder groups made up of a variety of key interested parties in their regions to examine the evidence and put forward site recommendations and associated impact assessments. To that end, it is the stakeholders who have been responsible for developing the recommendations on location, conservation objectives and management measures options of any MCZs in their region, and they have had a real opportunity to shape and influence the decisions that the Government will make.

On 8 September, the regional MCZ projects submitted their final MCZ recommendations to the independent Science Advisory Panel and the statutory nature conservation bodies for review. In total, there are 127 recommended MCZ sites. Across all four projects, over 2,500 interviews were conducted with stakeholders, and detailed discussions took place during the course of 155 stakeholder meetings. Over 1 million individuals’ interests have been represented through the MCZ stakeholder groups. Once the advice from the panel and the statutory nature conservation bodies is received, Ministers—I stress, Ministers themselves—will examine all the evidence before deciding which sites to put forward for public consultation. The public consultation will be yet another opportunity for stakeholders to present their views on proposals and for any further new evidence to be submitted. Only after all this evidence has been collated and reviewed will Ministers designate MCZs.

I conclude by reiterating the scale of the challenge facing the MMO and Ministers as we seek to grapple with exceedingly complex issues that, as my hon. Friends have eloquently noted, stir a great deal of interest and passion around coastal Britain. I look forward to continuing that vigorous discussion as we move forward through the process of designating marine conservation zones and managing our vital marine resources.

Question put and agreed to.

Steart Point

Lord Benyon Excerpts

Tuesday 18th October 2011 Westminster Hall

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Bridgwater and West Somerset (Mr Liddell-Grainger) on securing another debate and on making a number of good points.

The Steart scheme is an essential project with many positive points. I have to tell my hon. Friend that I have looked at the matter from every angle and I believe it to be the only viable way in which the Government can continue to provide defences and secure access to the village while also meeting our environmental objectives for the estuary.

The Severn estuary is an important wildlife area as well as a great economic asset. It has more than 200 km of coastal defences, which will provide, over time, benefits in excess of £5 billion to more than 100,000 residential and commercial properties. The shoreline management plan highlights the need to maintain and improve most of the defences. However, as a consequence of that there will be a substantial loss of internationally designated inter-tidal habitat.

Our investment prioritisation process is focused principally on protecting people and property and that is where the vast majority of our money is spent. However, we also have obligations under the EU habitats directive to maintain or restore natural habitats and the population of species of wild fauna and flora at a favourable conservation status. Together with the birds directive, it is a key element in the EU’s commitment to halt the loss of biodiversity within the EU by 2020.

Despite the impact on the natural environment, we will continue to invest in the defence of the Severn estuary. There is clearly an imperative reason to do so. Such work is permitted under the habitats directive as long as appropriate compensatory habitat is secured. Our plans to manage and improve the defences depend on sufficient compensatory habitat being secured before the protected habitat is lost due to flood defence construction works. There has already been a loss in the Severn estuary and, without the Steart scheme, such losses mean we are failing to maintain the integrity of the protected Natura 2000 site.

The Environment Agency has consulted on the Severn estuary flood risk management strategy and, in the light of the responses received together with the latest scientific advice on climate change, it has decided to review the initial proposals within the strategy—that was the point of the letter to my hon. Friend. That was a response to the very serious and genuine concerns that have been raised not just in his neighbourhood but right up the Severn estuary. I urge him to look at the difference between that macro policy and the micro issue that exists around the Steart. The scheme has been in development for three years, and has involved the local community throughout its development. It is not part of the review of the wider strategy, because it is needed urgently and it has strong local support. Beyond the short term, it is unlikely to be economically viable or sustainable to maintain the existing defences for Steart, which are in poor condition. To do so would cost in the region of £1 million per property. Therefore, it is of benefit to the local community if this project is implemented as soon as possible.

I have received many letters from people in the area in support of the scheme. Mr Barry Leathwood, the chair of Otterhampton parish council, said:

“The Agency has consulted extensively with the Otterhampton Parish Council which includes the villages of Combwich, Otterhampton and Steart and also with the various individuals and organisations in the area for a prolonged period of time. The project is overwhelmingly supported by the residents and this Council. It is our wish that the project be developed without delay.”

Andrew Darch of Brufords farm, Steart, said:

“Although under the EA’s proposals there is a large amount of agricultural land that will be converted to saltmarsh, this farmland would become very vulnerable to regular flooding without the schemes, devaluing the land considerably.”

I have also heard from Mike Caswell. He said:

“The consultation work carried out by the two companies”—

the Environment Agency and the Bristol Port Company—

“has been first class and they have always, without fail, responded to a request for a meeting with either groups or single individuals.”

I have seen letters to the local press from Dr Phillip Edwards, the chair of the Steart residents’ group, and from Otterhampton parish council. There seems to be a head of steam from local people who want this scheme to go ahead. There may be others who do not. Clearly, my hon. Friend sees dark forces at play. He sees the Environment Agency acting as the malign and evil arm of some secret service from the European Union making life miserable for his constituents, but that is not a view that is shared by the majority of his constituents—or at least by the ones who have written to me or to his local press.

I want to unravel the concerns of my hon. Friend. Undoubtedly, there is a problem here. The scheme is not about flooding the area, although that may happen over time with rising sea levels. The land has been purchased by the Environment Agency. If I were to put a blue pencil through the whole scheme, as my hon. Friend wants me to do, we would have to find new buyers for the land, which would be at some cost to the taxpayer. This is a good scheme that has been consulted on and carried through and I am at a loss to know why my hon. Friend continues with this concern.

The shoreline management plan has considered the issue and highlighted the Steart peninsula as somewhere where the managed realignment of the defence provides the best option for continuing to protect the village and its access as well as creating habitat to offset the environmental impact of flood defence work elsewhere in the estuary. Indeed, Steart has been identified as the most cost-effective place in the estuary for habitat creation without causing geomorphological side effects, such as adjacent erosion. That is a major factor.

The twin objectives of the Steart scheme are, first, to create habitat and, secondly and very importantly, to protect the village of Steart and its access. The scheme forms a vital part of an integrated and sustainable coastal management solution for the Severn estuary. It will provide the only foreseeable opportunity to improve flood protection to Steart Drove, which is the only access route to Steart village. It will also help to maintain the existing standard of protection, and the new defences can be expected to last far longer than the current defences.

The Steart scheme combines the creation of a substantial area of compensatory habitat in the most cost-effective way with better flood defence for the community. These factors make the scheme an integral part of whatever decisions are taken on the wider Severn estuary flood risk management strategy, which as my hon. Friend knows is under review. That is why the Steart scheme cannot be taken as part of that review. I hope that I have helped to clarify for my hon. Friend the importance of managing flood risk in a way that not only protects people and property, and delivers good value for money to the taxpayer, but meets our environmental obligations.

I am quite well aware of the concerns of many hon. Members—indeed, I share them—when directives that are created many miles from here impact on people’s lives at a very local level. I can assure my hon. Friend that I do not take lying down the words of directives. If I can find a way around them, because I feel that they are having a malign effect on the taxpayer or on his constituents or my own, I will take a very robust view on that. However, in this case I believe that the scheme is in the best interests of the people who live in Steart and of the wider estuary. I also believe that it has been properly consulted on and has local support. Therefore, I hope that we can now progress the scheme and that my hon. Friend’s constituents can be reassured that those people who live in Steart have a future, that their access to their community will not be cut off and that we are carrying through a scheme that they have been consulted on and that they fully understand. Our emphasis has always been that we must work with nature, wherever possible, to reduce the risks to people, while also meeting social and environmental objectives.

I can find no evidence that the Environment Agency has threatened people or behaved in a way other than the normal consultative process involved in trying to find a willing agreement to sell land. The threat of compulsory purchase is just not part of how the agency does business. The agency does not resort to compulsory purchase unless it cannot establish who a particular landowner is. Its purpose is to reach agreement and to reach a price that should reflect market conditions. If a compulsory purchase has to be made, the price is calculated by the district valuer and it has to be a market value at the time. If people feel that the price that they negotiated with the Environment Agency was wrong, they can find a market value. I understand that in this scheme that market value was achieved.

I hope that we can put this matter to bed now and that the Steart scheme can go ahead.