Snares
Lord Benyon Excerpts(12 years, 4 months ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon)
The DEFRA commissioned report, “Determining the Extent of Use and Humaneness of Snares in England and Wales—WM0315”, will be published today on the DEFRA website at WM0315. While I recognise the importance of snares in wildlife management, the report raises a number of issues. I wish to allow stakeholders time to consider the report’s findings in detail and will discuss possible ways forward with them before making any decisions.
Water Industry (Financial Assistance) Bill
Lord Benyon Excerpts(12 years, 4 months ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon)
As Members know full well, the only purpose for which we currently plan to exercise the power in clause 1 is to reduce the charges on household customers in the South West Water area. We have recognised that the circumstances in the south-west are exceptional and we will be addressing that unfairness. I am grateful to Opposition Members for bringing forward the amendments because they allow us to explain a little more clearly what we are trying to achieve in this part of the Bill.
Our policy has been set out clearly both in the water White Paper and by the Chancellor in the autumn statement. We will fund South West Water to reduce its customers’ bills by £50 a year from April 2013 and we have committed to do that until the end of the next spending review period. To answer the question that my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Miss McIntosh) asked, yes, from then it will be for the next comprehensive spending review period to negotiate this out of the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs’ budget, but that certainly does not imply cuts across other vital parts of its budget. I assure her that this is an absolute priority. It has been hard-fought for by hon. Members from across the south-west, and there is an absolute commitment from the Government to continue the important work to address an unfairness that we recognise.
As hon. Members from the south-west will testify, this support for customers in the south-west is the result of their long campaign. They have fought hard for this and the problem of high water bills in the region has been raised many times in the House. I am proud that the Government are making progress on this issue but I am a little disappointed that the Opposition wish, through amendment 1, to force a further round of discussion on the merits of reducing bills in the south-west before we can move forward. Let me explain why. The Chancellor’s Budget or autumn statement is the appropriate place for setting out Government spending plans and for doing so within the broader economic context in which such decisions are made. It is inappropriate to micro-manage the economy through individual statutory instruments committing future Government spend. The Government make many decisions on spending and Parliament does not examine each one in detail through a process involving the laying of statutory instruments. However, the opportunity for parliamentary scrutiny does exist. DEFRA spending is subject to scrutiny by the excellent Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee and, if so wished, by the Public Accounts Committee. Government spending is also subject to the usual supply and estimates procedures with which we are all familiar. If the Government decided to use this power to provide further support, I would fully expect Members to scrutinise the case and to ensure that assistance was given only where and for as long as it was right to do so.
I draw to the attention of the hon. Member for Luton South (Gavin Shuker) the fact that new section 154A(1) within clause 1 focuses on an “English undertaker” and a “licensed water supplier”. We have to accept that there is not a lot of money floating around in Government at the moment—I am sure he recognises that—and so the idea that the Government are going to start sloshing money around freely without any public debate is absolutely ridiculous. One must also accept that that would be the case in future. We do not know what the future holds, but we want future Secretaries of State to be able to use the power where genuinely necessary. We therefore do not think the amendment is necessary. The Government are not going to start doling out money to water companies on a whim. We are using this power this time after years of debate, but it is unimaginable that any future use of the power would not attract the same level of debate.
In a similar vein, new clause 1 would threaten the action we are taking to deal with wider affordability problems. I point out that we will have the opportunity to develop the House’s thinking on this with the water Bill. I know that the Bill is eagerly sought by Members on both sides to take forward many of the issues we set out in the White Paper, which have been the subject of past reports to the Government. The Government have given a clear commitment that the Bill will be available for proper and full pre-legislative scrutiny and I hope that we will be able to publish it soon. Whether or not it is in the Queen’s Speech is not a matter for me.
Julie Hilling
May I press the Minister a little more on this? When he says “soon” does he mean in the next Session or the Session after that?
Richard Benyon
The hon. Lady will understand that I am not privy to what is in the Queen’s Speech. I very much want a water Bill as soon as possible, but we have given a commitment that the Bill will be available for pre-legislative scrutiny, and that is not something that happens overnight—it requires a process and it would be tight to get in the full level of pre-legislative scrutiny and a Bill in the next Session. However, I accept her point that it is needed by many people as quickly as possible.
We know that some households in the south-west and other regions—let me reiterate that other regions are also affected—struggle with their water and sewerage charges. We will soon be issuing guidance that will allow for the development of company social tariffs. Water companies will be able to reduce the charges of customers who would otherwise have difficulty paying in full. In consultation with their customers, companies will decide who needs help in their area and then design local solutions to address local circumstances. Water companies know their customers and local circumstances. Companies vary in size and customer base, and average bills also vary from company to company. On Second Reading, Members spoke about the different kinds of affordability problems faced by their constituents. They also recognised that in some parts of the country there might be less scope than in others for customers to cross-subsidise others in the region. I urge hon. Members to consider the Cholderton company, which serves only about 2,000 people. The difficulty of having a nationally mandated tariff that would apply to that company as well as to Thames Water, which has several million customers, accentuates the problem.
Imposing one-size-fits-all standards, as new clause 1 would require, on companies that decide to develop social tariffs would prevent them from reflecting the circumstances of their customer base and what their customers want. Some companies might be less likely to introduce social tariffs if the model did not suit their local circumstances. If hon. Members intend that all private water companies should be forced to introduce a centrally imposed social tariff scheme, I cannot support the introduction of that regulatory burden.
Mr Matthew Offord (Hendon) (Con)
The shadow Secretary of State said that she did not wish to take the credit for some of the amendments because they were the initiative of Ofwat. Having looked through Ofwat’s response to DEFRA’s consultation on company social tariffs, I think the amendments all came from Ofwat, apart from the question of what concessions to offer. Ofwat says that it supports the view in the draft guidance that it is preferable that the companies themselves should design concessions that best suit their customers’ needs. It says this so that companies, rather than the Government, will have greater scope to innovate, which I think the Minister is saying too.
Richard Benyon
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for making that point. It shows when one prays in aid an organisation, one has to do so in the context of all the evidence that has been given by it to many organisations, not least a Select Committee of the House.
We want companies to be imaginative in the way they tackle affordability in their areas, not to force them into a straitjacket. Our guidance will not dictate eligibility criteria, the level of concession or the amount of cross-subsidy. It will give companies the freedom to make judgments, with their customers, on what can work in their areas. This addresses the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Miss McIntosh). Social tariffs are a new tool in the tool-kit for companies, but they are not the only tool. Companies have many other effective tools—for example, win-win tariffs, which are self-funding from savings on bad debt and do not rely on cross-subsidies. They have trust funds, as has been mentioned, which are set up by the company to pay off the debts of those most in need, as well as payment plans and referrals to holistic debt agencies such as Citizens Advice, arrangements made locally that really work.
We must not see a social tariff as the only show in town. There are no state secrets here. The information from water companies about the social tariffs that they develop will be produced in negotiation with DEFRA, working on the guidance that we will publish in a few weeks. The proposals from the water companies and the decisions that DEFRA makes will be available for scrutiny.
Alison Seabeck
This is slightly tangential. The companies are working to tackle unaffordable water charges, but there is one thing that they probably cannot deal with, which was mentioned on Second Reading by one of the Minister’s colleagues and by me. Once the £50 payment comes through the system, which will help most people on low incomes, the companies will not be able to guarantee that it goes to the person who pays the bill. Instead of going to the vulnerable party, the money may be going to a park home owner who is not reputable, or a private landlord. What discussions has the Minister had, perhaps with the Ministry of Justice, about whether it would be a criminal offence—a fraud—if the park home owner did not pass the money on?
Richard Benyon
The hon. Lady could lead me down a long path of personal frustration on this subject, which I am happy to share with the Committee. I have a number of park homes in my constituency. Some are well run. It is a style of living that we across the House should encourage because it allows people at a certain age to release some capital and live in a smaller dwelling surrounded by people in similar circumstances, but there are too many park home owners who are appalling human beings. Various Governments, including this Government and the Government whom the hon. Lady supported, have sought to address this. I am working with my hon. Friends in the Department for Communities and Local Government to ensure that the alternative arrangements that the Government are making for park homes will be fit for purpose.
I thank the Committee for that bit of therapy. I can assure the hon. Lady that we intend the £50 to get to precisely the people whom she describes. I am happy to talk to anyone. In my Department we are keen to make sure that that money is not siphoned off by anybody and gets to the householder, even if that householder is a park home owner on a site owned by somebody else.
Richard Benyon
Everyone in the Chamber recognises that the words “Thames Water” appear nowhere in the Bill. Nevertheless, my right hon. Friend the Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes) has raised some legitimate points.
I am certainly not here to be the voice of Thames Water. While I entirely understand the concerns that have been expressed by Members in all parts of the Committee, I think we should be careful about debating the structure of companies, or our perceptions of their virtue or otherwise. It is not for me to talk at length today about tax loopholes, perceived or actual, and in any event you would not allow me to do so, Ms Primarolo. The Government intend to block such loopholes where they exist, and it is the job of Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs to hold companies to account.
I recognise that there is an issue that needs to be addressed by Thames Water in respect of its customers and the 144 Members of Parliament—including me—who are concerned about it. However, we should be wary of trying to prescribe such matters as debt equity ratios in legislation. Shifting the percentage from debt to equity could have a serious effect on bills in some water companies’ areas, and although debt levels are obviously of concern and we must ensure that they are as low as possible, it is not for Ministers to make such prescriptive decisions.
Mark Field
Does my hon. Friend not accept that legislation is the only mechanism whereby Members can address fundamental issues such as this? Many of us find it quite distressing that Ofwat, as the regulator, is not doing the job that it should be doing in relation to what are fairly high-profile issues. Is he suggesting that we can rely entirely on Ofwat to judge whether debt equity relationships are appropriate? The right hon. Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes) pointed out that although there are distinct guidelines in Ofwat’s own documentation, they seem to have been largely ignored by Thames Water, and may well have been ignored by other water companies. Indeed, the same may apply to other regulators which many of us believe are simply not delivering the goods.
Richard Benyon
My hon. Friend makes an entirely legitimate point. It is absolutely Parliament’s role to hold debates and adopt positions and, in many cases, hold to account corporations who are responsible for products such as water, which is so important to our constituents’ lives. I am sorry if I gave the impression that that might in some way be diminished. There are many forums within Parliament, not least the Select Committee process, for holding organisations such as Ofwat to account for the decisions they take. I assure my hon. Friend that we have regular discussions with all three regulators of the water industry, as well as with the water companies, to ensure that decisions are taken properly in relation to us in Government, and he is also right that Parliament should debate such matters, too.
I want to rattle through some of the points raised in the debate before addressing the questions asked by my right hon. Friend the Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark. First, I want to put on the record that I celebrate the fact that another country’s sovereign wealth fund wants to invest in water companies in this country—indeed, that has received a generally positive reception. It is also worth putting on the record that no decision has yet been made as to whether the Thames tideway tunnel should form part of Thames Water’s regulated asset base.
I also want to say that I share the admiration for Thames21 expressed by the hon. Member for Hammersmith (Mr Slaughter). I have visited that organisation on a number of occasions, and it does fantastic work around our capital, reminding us not only why this river is so important to those who live in London, but also that it passes through one of the seven most important cities in the world. That must motivate us to get this project right.
There has been some comment about this project being a private finance initiative venture. As I am sure Members understand, it is not a PFI project because it would not involve the public sector entering into a contract with the private sector.
Some uncertainty will always be associated with projects of this size and complexity. The current cost estimate of £4.1 billion includes a significant contingency element of £0.9 billion for risk allowance and optimism bias. Together with Ofwat, Infrastructure UK and the Major Projects Authority, we will continue to scrutinise the costs and ensure that the project is delivered efficiently, with a structure and financing mechanism that delivers value for money for customers and taxpayers.
Lessons learned from other successful projects will be applied to ensure that this project is delivered within budget and on time. I promise my right hon. Friend and other Members that I and my ministerial colleagues remain healthily sceptical about the cost of this project. We must remain sceptical about any projects that have such high capital costs and that involve an annual charge for so many people, some of whom are on low incomes. It would be wrong of us to sleepwalk into an arrangement and not be rigorous about the cost element.
We are taking the best possible advice. We have taken on Ernst and Young to advise us on the structure and financing of the project, and we have also taken the best advice on engineering solutions. We talk to Thames Water regularly, too. I cannot share with Members some of the details that I would like to share with them, because we are currently in a very sensitive negotiating time in respect of this project. In due course, I hope, and expect, to be able to share more details, however.
I was asked under what circumstances financial assistance would be given for the tunnel. We are still considering the most effective financing mechanisms for the project. We are talking with Ofwat, Thames Water and our own advisers. No decisions have yet been made on the form of any financial assistance, or how it could work.
I entirely agree with the hon. Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn) that we must also have clear policies on public open green space and green spaces generally. We have published policies on that and the green infrastructure partnership that we are creating. We are also working on the use of permeable surfaces, which is largely a building regulations matter, but also comes under the remit of the Department. We will be announcing our policy on sustainable urban drainage systems following the consultation on that in the near future, so he is right to raise the matter.
Let me deal with the points made by my right hon. Friend. He has tabled amendments to attach to the granting of financial assistance several mandatory terms and conditions relating to the financial structure of the undertaker responsible for the construction or works. I take his concerns seriously and share his desire to ensure that should any public financial support go to the Thames tunnel or similar projects—it is important to understand that this is not just about the Thames tunnel—it is tightly controlled.
My right hon. Friend has put on the record his letter to the Secretary of State and much of her reply to him, and I do not intend to go through that in detail. However, in dealing with his amendments, I should, first, reiterate that the clause, as drafted, already allows terms and conditions to be attached to the financial assistance. As with amendment 3, I do not accept, however, that it is necessary or appropriate to include a detailed listing of potential terms and conditions in the Bill. Those may vary from project to project, and it is better to retain flexibility on the most appropriate terms and conditions that would protect customers and taxpayers, and ensure that infrastructure projects can be delivered.
That said, the amendments appear to raise questions about Ofwat’s independent economic regulation of water and sewerage companies. Although the Secretary of State has written recently to my right hon. Friend on this point, it may be useful to set out briefly how the sector is regulated. A greater awareness of this regulatory system may help to reassure hon. Members about the checks and balances relating to the financing of the water sector, and how taxpayers’ and customers’ interests are properly protected. Every water and sewerage company in England and Wales is regulated in accordance with Ofwat’s primary duties to protect the interests of customers and to enable the companies to finance their functions. Each water company is subject to the terms outlined in its instrument of appointment or, as it is more often known, its “licence”. The licence contains conditions to ensure that each company has sufficient financial and managerial resources to carry out its functions, and that the regulated company is operated separately from the rest of the group. Those licence conditions are known as the regulatory ring fence.
It is for the management of each regulated water company to determine their own optimal financial structure. Where companies have put forward new financial structures, Ofwat has introduced amendments to licence conditions, such as the requirement to maintain an investment grade credit rating, which has been mentioned, to ensure that companies can still finance their functions and that consumers’ interests are not affected adversely. High gearing ratios are, in part, reflective of lenders’ confidence in this regulatory regime.
I will now discuss the amendments in detail. On amendment 4, my right hon. Friend’s intention may be that the project should secure finance only from institutions that have signed up to the equator principles, but that would limit the market from which finance can be sought, thus potentially adding cost on to customers’ bills. In addition, as was pointed out by my hon. Friend the Member for Hendon (Mr Offord), non-membership of the equator scheme does not mean that a financial institution is not following sound principles. My right hon. Friend’s intention may be that the company seeking the finance should sign up to the principles, but it would be inappropriate to ask Thames Water, its holding companies, its infrastructure provider or any other water and sewerage company to sign up to a set of principles designed for financial institutions active in providing project finance, rather than for companies involved in providing utility services under a well-established regulatory regime, which already balances the economic, social and environmental aims of sustainable development.
Amendment 5 deals with debt to equity ratios as a condition relating to the provision of financial assistance. I should explain that Ofwat does not find it necessary to place an absolute cap on levels of gearing. Its requirement for the past two price reviews has been that companies should maintain an investment-grade credit rating. To have this credit rating, companies must maintain sufficient levels of equity in their business. It is that requirement, together with the regulatory ring fence, that provides the protection we all want for customers.
Miss McIntosh
Bearing in mind the history of hybrid Bills in this House, and the length of time and the amount of dissent that they can involve, I am not sure that that is the path the hon. Gentleman really, truly wishes to go down.
Richard Benyon
I am grateful to the hon. Member for Luton South (Gavin Shuker) and his colleagues for tabling the amendments, because that allows me to explain—and, I hope, to reassure the House—about the use and the powers of the clause.
First, I will address a couple of the points that the hon. Gentleman made. I assure him that I am happy to discuss the process with him and for him to meet my officials to see how it is progressing. He is a very honourable individual and he will respect the fact that because some aspects of what we are dealing with are extremely sensitive and are being watched closely by a number of organisations and, not least, the markets, we have to be extremely careful. I am pleased about how things are going. He also has the opportunity to meet representatives of Thames Water, Ofwat and others to express his concerns on this and related issues, and I know that he has already done so.
The hon. Gentleman asked which Ministers will make the final decision on such matters. The Secretaries of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs and for Communities and Local Government will jointly take decisions on water and waste water applications. The Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government will take the lead on considering the Planning Inspectorate’s recommendations. My officials are due to meet his officials shortly to agree the process, and I am happy to keep the hon. Gentleman informed as that develops.
I should like to outline the practical problems associated with accepting the amendments. Together with advisers, the Treasury, Infrastructure UK and Ofwat, we are engaged in discussions with Thames Water over the financing of the Thames tunnel project. Those discussions are focused on reaching the right balance between protecting bill payers and taxpayers and ensuring that the project can be financed and delivered by the private sector. By necessity, a project of such scale and complexity as the Thames tunnel involves a complicated and lengthy negotiating process. I can foresee a host of practical problems in stopping that process at the point at which we feel that a reasonable package has been reached, which balances the risks and enables the project to be delivered, publishing a report on apprenticeships and a further cost-benefit appraisal, and then translating the agreement reached into a statutory instrument for debate in both Houses. Even if we can find a way around addressing potentially commercially confidential material in a published draft order, that additional regulatory process would prolong the completion of the project and add cost that is ultimately paid for by the customer. It would also create an extra layer of risk, with likely implications for securing and retaining the interest of investors in the project.
Mel Stride (Central Devon) (Con)
Is it not also the case that, almost of necessity, Parliament will scrutinise very large infrastructure projects in one way or another anyway?
Richard Benyon
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. It is worth reminding ourselves of the kind of project that we are talking about. Subsection 1(a) refers to
“the construction of water or sewerage infrastructure”
and subsection 1(b) refers to
“existing water or sewerage infrastructure.”
We have therefore narrowed this down to a particular area of work. Subsection (2) refers to
“exceptionally large or complex works.”
Such an item of expenditure could not just sail under the radar of due parliamentary process. I appreciate the comments of my hon. Friend the Member for Penrith and The Border (Rory Stewart) who eloquently described the necessity for smooth operating in such circumstances, but we are talking about major projects that cannot avoid high levels of scrutiny, and I cannot see that adding an extra tier to that process would be effective.
In the event of the statutory instrument being rejected by Parliament, we would have to return to the negotiating table and reopen discussions. That might put in jeopardy the interest of investors that had previously been attracted to the project. That would add further costs, call into question the project’s viability and ultimately delay action to tackle the significant environmental problems that, in the case that is the driver for the Bill, are being caused by excessive sewage discharges into the Thames. That would, in turn, increase the risk of infraction fines against the UK for non-compliance with the urban waste water treatment directive.
Rory Stewart
Does my hon. Friend accept, as a general philosophical principle, that one should not micro-manage the detail of a Bill to the extent that is called for in the amendments, because one would end up with endless and voluminous legislation? Does he agree that the issues of apprenticeships and financing are better left to the contracting authorities and to the administration of civil servants, and that if too much of this micro-managing happens on sectoral issues and specific projects, Parliament will be mired in complexity?
Richard Benyon
I agree with my hon. Friend. It would be wrong to put in the Bill requirements that might or might not suit today’s world, but that would be wrong for the future. The Government, in negotiations with private sector companies and through the planning process, are involved at many levels in the development of such contracts. We can impose our desires and our will. The companies and the Government can be held to account if they fail on these matters. I believe that to prescribe to such a level of detail would be wrong.
Thames Water is holding the launch for a jobs and skills report in the House on 20 March, to which MPs are invited. Its jobs and skills forum will promote the work that it is carrying out in this area. Thames Water will also look to gain from the experiences of other large-scale infrastructure projects. It is right for the Government to support and encourage Thames Water in those efforts.
Apprenticeships are central to ensuring that our work force are equipped to help build economic growth. There are huge opportunities in the project, if we can embrace them, for Londoners who are seeking work and training to be involved in a really high-profile scheme for a number of years. They can then take the benefits into other sectors and industries. However, we do not feel the need for further legislation to provide that encouragement. Nor is it necessary or appropriate to require the terms and conditions involved to be included in a statutory instrument. For that reason, I ask hon. Members not to press the amendments.
Gavin Shuker
I thank all Members who have participated in the debate. I listened carefully to what the Minister said, and I am slightly concerned that he and the hon. Member for Penrith and The Border (Rory Stewart) have tried to talk up amendment 3, a modest amendment, into a big, overbearing piece of regulation. It is not. It would not just apply to this project but protect us in future, and I gave a clear commitment to the Thames tunnel throughout my speech.
I listened to what the Minister said about apprenticeships, and I believe that his heart is in absolutely the right place. We will all want to pull together to ensure that the Thames tunnel project, which I am certain will go ahead, employs apprentices and ensures that there is a legacy for London. I will therefore not press amendment 3, but I do seek to press amendment 2 to a Division.
Question put, That the amendment be made.
Richard Benyon
I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time.
I begin by thanking all Members who have contributed to the debates on Second Reading and in Committee today. I pay particular tribute to the hon. Member for Luton South (Gavin Shuker), who was decent in consulting me and put forward articulately how he viewed the Bill and how he believed it could be changed. I am sure we will have many further discussions over future legislation. Many right hon. and hon. Members contributed to the debate. I pay particular tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Miss McIntosh), who spoke with her customary knowledge on this issue.
For the record, I would like to correct an impression I might have given in Committee about the funding of water bills in the south-west. I can confirm the Government’s firm commitment that the funding will continue until the end of the next spending round. The Treasury will fund the bills until the end of the current round, and the impact on DEFRA’s budget in the next round will of course be a matter for us to discuss.
The Bill is straightforward in its intent and drafting. It fulfils two spending commitments set out by the Chancellor in his autumn statement, both of which were designed to reduce the costs of infrastructure investment falling on water and sewerage customers.
Through the amendments that we have discussed today—which I have considered carefully—ran a common thread: a desire to limit and delay Government action to help hard-pressed bill payers. After so many years of debate, we want to get on with funding South West Water to enable it to cut bills for its household customers. We have a separate package to deal with wider affordability problems. We also want to reassure potential investors in the Thames tideway tunnel at an early stage that the Government are willing to provide contingent financial support for exceptional project risk when that offers the best value for money for Thames Water customers and taxpayers.
I shall refrain from discussing the need for the tunnel today in order not to repeat myself, as on Monday the House will debate the waste water national policy statement, which includes a statement of need. On Second Reading, Members rightly mentioned their constituents’ concern about the potential local impacts of the tunnel’s construction; I assure them that they and their constituents can provide input on such issues at all appropriate stages of the planning process.
I also understand the concern that has been expressed about the breadth of the powers in the Bill, but those powers are by no means unusual in containing flexibility for the purpose of future circumstances, and they do not remove the need and opportunity for proper parliamentary scrutiny of Government spending plans in the usual way.
Our water White Paper, “Water for Life”, sent the strong message that we need to be prepared for an uncertain future. The current drought is just a small taste of what may follow if we do not act to make our water supply and sewerage systems more resilient. That will require continuing investment in infrastructure, as well as action by all of us to conserve water.
As I have said, we are confident that our system of economic regulation can ensure that bills remain affordable generally, while the existing WaterSure scheme, together with targeted social tariffs and other support delivered by water companies, can help those in need. More than £90 billion has been invested since privatisation, while bills remain on average around £1 per day. That is testimony to the strength of the current system. However, exceptional circumstances do arise. We have seen it in the south-west, and we have seen it with the Thames tunnel.
Of course, infrastructure investment does not just bring cost. As I said earlier, jobs and growth are central to the Government's agenda. Thames Water currently estimates that the Thames tunnel project would directly employ around 4,200 people in the construction and related sectors, and would provide several thousand secondary jobs in the supply chain and the wider London economy. That is not in itself a reason to support the construction of the tunnel, for obvious reasons, but it is nevertheless a big win for London and for the country in terms of what it can do for our skills base and our economy. Thames Water aims to ensure that local workers make up 20% of its tunnel construction work force.
I am grateful for the swift passage of the Bill, and for the many thoughtful contributions that have been made to our debates. As a number of Members have noted, there has been a cross-party effort by those representing constituencies in the south-west to keep the issue of high water bills in the region on the political agenda. I am pleased that Members in all parts of the House also recognise the need to deal with the sewage discharges that are sullying the most important river going through one of the most important cities in the world.
I commend the Bill to the House.
Mauritania (Fishing Agreement)
Lord Benyon Excerpts(12 years, 4 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon)
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for South East Cornwall (Sheryll Murray) both on requesting and on securing the debate, building on the expertise of my hon. Friend the Member for Shrewsbury and Atcham (Daniel Kawczynski). I should also acknowledge the powerful contribution of my hon. Friend the Member for Tiverton and Honiton (Neil Parish). I shall explain shortly why this debate comes at an opportune moment. It is important that we debate such issues not only in the House, but where it counts, in the European Union. I shall go on to explain the Government’s policy on the external dimension of the common fisheries policy.
The future of the fisheries partnership agreement with Mauritania is important, as is the future of all EU fisheries partnership agreements with other countries. The EU spends around €120 million each year on fisheries partnership agreements with countries outside the EU in exchange for EU vessels being permitted to fish in their waters. That is a large amount of money, representing 15% of the total EU fisheries budget. I am determined that these agreements should provide value for money, support good governance and apply only where the exploitation of fish resources is sustainable.
Over the past four years, the EU has paid €305 million to the Government of Mauritania so that its vessels can fish there. In total, the EU catch is about 300,000 tonnes of fish each year. Rather than it all being landed into the EU or Mauritania, much of it finds its way to other African countries, as my hon. Friend the Member for South East Cornwall said. In fact, very little of the fish caught in Mauritanian waters by EU vessels is actually landed into Mauritania. In 2006, only 8% of the EU’s catch was landed in Mauritanian ports. In response, Mauritania insisted on the inclusion of a clause in the latest protocol stipulating that, if vessels did not land into Mauritania, they had to pay higher licence fees. That has encouraged some additional landings but even now they are only around 12% of the total.
Vessel operators claim that they are unable to land into Mauritania because the conditions are simply not adequate for them to do so. In some cases, they say that to land into Mauritania could put the safety of the crew at risk, cause significant damage to the vessel and risk damage to the wider marine environment through oil spills. In 2011, the European Parliament issued a declaration that called on the EU to support the rapid construction of adequate facilities for landing fish into Mauritania. That would increase local consumption and support local employment—the kind of aims that a real partnership agreement should seek to achieve and, indeed, aims that are supposed to have been fulfilled in this agreement. The European Parliament also considers that more effective mechanisms must be in place to ensure that funds earmarked for development, and in particular for infrastructure improvements in the fisheries sector, are used properly. I entirely agree. We must be able to demonstrate that these public funds are being used for the purpose for which they were provided.
An independent evaluation of the Mauritania agreement indicated that, although it was better than previous agreements, there were still substantial deficiencies. For example, it concluded that most stocks offered to the EU by Mauritania were either fully exploited or over-exploited. If the EU wishes to be regarded as a responsible fishing entity, it must only fish against stocks considered sustainable. The scientific advice must be more robust and then adhered to by both parties to the agreement. The EU should not be contributing to overfishing in the waters of other countries by vessels that are, to all intents and purposes, subsidised by our taxpayers.
I am pleased to report that we are making progress. For example, all agreements now have to contain a clause allowing the EU to terminate them in the event of serious human rights concerns in the countries with which the agreements have been negotiated. I have also noted that the European Parliament has recently added its weight to the debate and called for money paid as compensation for access to fish stocks in Mauritania waters to be decoupled from financial support, so that reductions in fishing opportunities do not necessarily lead to reductions in financial aid.
I want the proportion of funding for fisheries agreements that is paid for by vessel operators to be increased significantly so that public money is not used to subsidise EU vessels fishing in developing countries. In 2012, only 20% of the money given to Mauritania was contributed by vessel operators themselves. We must ensure that these agreements represent value for money to the EU taxpayer and the local populations, and that these subsidies do not work against precisely what we seek to achieve on the development of sustainable fisheries.
We have been criticised for allowing vessels to operate around the globe that are no longer economically viable for fishing in EU waters. That criticism is well founded and we now need to take action to address it properly. I also want to ensure that, when these vessels fish under these agreements, they are subject to the same standards of control that apply to vessels fishing in EU waters. That means ensuring that a sufficient proportion of the funds under the agreements is spent on strengthening inspection and enforcement capability.
In that regard, I note what my hon. Friend the Member for South East Cornwall said about a factory ship landing in Las Palmas. We will certainly make inquiries with the appropriate authority to investigate that. What she described is a disgraceful situation—if it can be proved—and we will work hard to ensure that, where possible, such matters are decided.
I should also report to the House that my discussions with other Fisheries Ministers from west African countries have shown me that what they require is a single point of contact with the Commission, so that if an EU-registered vessel is held and those concerned are arrested for malpractice of any kind, that information can be transferred to the Commission and appropriate licensing action can be taken by the EU. At the moment, that does not happen. We currently have a crazy situation, where a vessel can leave a port and just go out to sea, perhaps carrying on fishing illegally without the kind of sanction that should be applied by us, as the EU, from where it is licensed.
I have already been pressing those points in a number of forums. Over the coming months, we will have a number of opportunities to tackle the issues and bring about real change that will improve the governance of the agreements, ultimately benefiting both the EU and—more importantly for this debate—the countries with which we have those agreements. That is why this debate is so timely. The first such opportunity falls in about 10 days or so, at the March Fisheries Council, where I will be discussing with fellow EU Fisheries Ministers the external dimension of the common fisheries policy, as part of the reform of the common fisheries policy to deal with fisheries partnership agreements. I can assure hon. Members that I will be maintaining the pressure and reflecting the mood of the House this evening.
The UK’s position is clear. We want a common fisheries policy that promotes the genuinely sustainable use of fish stocks, wherever they are. We are seeking to ensure that fisheries partnership agreements are based on robust science, allowing EU vessels to fish only for stocks where a genuine surplus exists and providing value for money to the EU taxpayer. I want fisheries partnership agreements to place a greater financial burden on the vessel operators who benefit from them, and I want to see the same standards of control and enforcement as are currently applied in EU waters. I also want a mechanism that separates the money paid for access to fishing grounds from development aid, and provides a real benefit to the indigenous populations and fishing communities of the countries with which we have such agreements. Critically, any agreement must be subject to a rigorous assessment, to ensure that its sustainability is assured before, during and after its life cycle.
I end by offering this assurance to my hon. Friend and the House. I will continue to argue strongly for improvements to both fisheries partnerships agreements under the current CFP and the future policy frameworks under a reformed CFP, for the benefit of taxpayers, developing countries and the fish stocks themselves. I would also say this to my hon. Friend the Member for Tiverton and Honiton. He may not share the view that not all fisheries partnership agreements are wrong. However, if we can get this right and develop a sustainable fishery off a country’s coastline, so that the fish are caught sustainably and landed there, with value added to them by local fish processing businesses—perhaps with the support of aid from countries such as ours—and if those fish can then be sold on the world market, all that can benefit both the indigenous populations along those coastlines and the economic development of that country as a going concern, as well as helping with better governance and greater scientific understanding of what is happening in the seas around those coasts. That is what I am trying to achieve, by making a virtue out of what is, really, a black mark, in what has been the sorry history of the common fisheries policy, both at home and in its external dimension. I can assure the House that I am working hard with all those with an interest in the agreements, to ensure that we achieve real and meaningful improvements to the current framework of fisheries partnership agreements.
Question put and agreed to.
Water Industry (Financial Assistance) Bill
Lord Benyon Excerpts(12 years, 4 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon)
I thank hon. Members on both sides of the House for their participation in this debate. It is good to hear that the issues tackled by the Bill are at the forefront not only of my mind but of those of other hon. Members. Also, it is a pleasure to be lobbied by my hon. Friend the Member for Camborne and Redruth (George Eustice). He should not worry about collaring me in the Lobby, and neither should any other hon. Member. If I give the impression of putting my head down and trying to get through it as quickly as possible, I regret that. I congratulate him and Members from the south-west from all parties on the pressure that they have brought to bear to achieve a measure to alleviate what we accept is an unfairness that dates right back to privatisation 20 years ago. I congratulate them on the success that they have achieved thus far in getting this legislation introduced.
Water seems to have been in the news on a daily basis recently, which reflects how precious the resource is to each and every one of us. Despite the confidence of the right hon. Member for Exeter (Mr Bradshaw) that we live in a rainy country, parts of the United Kingdom have been affected by drought for many months now, and that is likely to continue into the summer.
We must act now: it is imperative that we have a system in place that provides a secure water supply now and for the future, while continuing to protect the environment. That is why we are dealing with the situation we face at the moment. We brought together experts and key players in the water industry at a drought summit. We do not need legislation to get on and tackle some of the drought-related problems; we are doing that right now.
I often find myself making speeches about the particular river of concern in my constituency—the River Kennett—and I am also lobbied by Members across the country about the water that flows, or does not flow, through rivers in their constituencies. Of most concern to this Bill is the river into which the Kennett flows—the Thames. Today, the proposed Thames tunnel offers the most timely, comprehensive and cost-effective solution to the combined sewer overflow problems and the dumping of raw sewage into our river.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes) asked for the case on the tunnel to be compared once again with other proposals put forward. I have to say, however, that none of the alternatives identified during the extensive studies carried out over the past decade has been found swiftly or adequately to address the environmental and health objectives for the Thames tideway while simultaneously complying with our statutory obligations.
Mr Slaughter
I compliment the Minister on his clarity and consistency on this issue. Does he share my frustration, however, that when I go back to my constituency I find the hon. Member for Chelsea and Fulham (Greg Hands)—as a Government Whip, he should be helping this Bill through the Commons—running a vitriolic campaign against the tunnel and a local authority that not only spends tens of thousands of pounds on a misleading campaign, but as of last night is threatening to sue the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government to prevent him from safeguarding sites in the borough? Can the Conservative party get its act together on this issue?
Richard Benyon
I thought that the hon. Gentleman was going to make a helpful intervention, but he made his point eloquently once again.
The alternative proposal for a shorter western tunnel would allow large volumes of raw sewage to continue to flow into sections of the Thames—exactly what the Thames tunnel is designed to avoid. It is clear that the public do not want raw sewage going into this iconic river through one of the most important cities in the world.
In what I must say was a great speech, we heard from my hon. Friend the Member for Hendon (Mr Offord) about how serious is the issue of combined sewer overflows—not just in London, but around the country. He added his own perspective on other elements of the Bill. I can assure him that combined sewer overflows are monitored robustly and that action is taken where permits are breached or problems with the environment are identified. Beyond the Thames tunnel, some £1 billion is being invested further to reduce the impact of combined sewer overflows across the country.
We are ever mindful of the costs involved in the Thames tunnel project. We remain convinced that there is an economic case for it. Part of it is Thames Water’s estimate that the project would directly employ about 4,250 people in the construction and related sectors, as well as providing further secondary employment. The Thames tunnel team actively support the Crossrail Tunnelling and Underground Construction Academy, which is currently training and gaining employment for 70 apprentices a year. Following the Crossrail model, the Thames tunnel project will specify in its contracts the level of apprentices that will be employed by the contractors.
Let me say that I remain sceptical on cost, which is where I believe Ministers should be on a project of this size. We are receiving the best possible advice, and the work will be ongoing. I cannot possibly stand here and say now that costs will definitely be pegged at the current estimated level, but we will try to deliver this project within budget and effectively for the people of London and the country as a whole.
Richard Benyon
I am sorry, but I am a bit short of time, and I may be about to answer the point. Despite the concerns raised by my right hon. Friend the Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark, Ofwat regulates the ring-fenced regulated businesses and ensures that customers receive value for money from them. Who ultimately owns that ring-fenced business makes no difference to customers; the licence conditions attached to the ring fence provide the necessary protections. Thames Water’s structure is similar to that of several other water companies.
We heard eloquent and passionate speeches from the right hon. Member for Lewisham, Deptford (Dame Joan Ruddock) and from the hon. Member for Poplar and Limehouse (Jim Fitzpatrick), reminding us of the potential impacts of the tunnel’s construction on their constituents. I remain ready to work with them to try to minimise the impacts in any way I can. I am very conscious of the effect that it can have on communities.
My hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Miss McIntosh), my right hon. Friend the Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark and the hon. Member for Edmonton (Mr Love) asked for an opportunity to amend the waste water national policy statement. We are, of course, happy to have a debate on the policy statement, and, like other debates in the House on national policy statements, it would be a yes or no debate. Best endeavours are being made to ensure that it is held before the Easter recess, and I hope that that provides the necessary reassurance. As for the other project to which the policy statement refers, the Deephams sewage treatment works, Thames Water intends to begin the phase 1 consultation in about June this year. It is still working on a preferred option, and aims to submit a planning application in late 2013 or early 2014.
The hon. Member for Wakefield (Mary Creagh), the shadow Secretary of State, sometimes reminds me of someone having a fight in a pub when the lights have been turned out. She flails around in all directions, and causes as much damage to her mates as to anyone else. She had to intervene later in the debate to tell us that she was, in fact, supporting the Bill, which is a great relief. That was underlined by the hon. Member for Luton South (Gavin Shuker), and we are grateful for his support as well.
Despite the concerns raised by the shadow Secretary of State, the powers in the Bill are appropriately drafted. Although we currently have no plans to use those powers other than to assist South West Water customers and in relation to the Thames tunnel, we heard many calls today—including, again, calls from Opposition Members—for us to legislate to help reduce the problems of water affordability around the country, and to invest in new infrastructure to help make the country more resilient to droughts in future. As the water White Paper made clear, given our growing population and changing climate, our need for infrastructure investment will not diminish. We should leave ourselves the flexibility to offer similar Government support to future projects if the case is strong. However, it is inconceivable that any nationally significant infrastructure project would proceed with Government backing unless the case had been fully debated, as the Thames tunnel project is at present.
Let me repeat the Secretary of State’s commitment: we will publish a draft Water Bill for pre-legislative scrutiny in the coming months, and it will cover the remaining legislative commitments set out in the water White Paper. The market reform proposals in the White Paper will be a key part of the Bill, and are a direct response to Martin Cave’s invaluable report.
In the few seconds that I have left, I want to talk about affordability. One of the necessary provisions is the ability for us to issue guidance on water company social tariffs, so we can address the issue of water affordability nationally. The reduction in South West Water bills to which we are committed addresses an exceptional historic unfairness, but we recognise that many people in the south-west and elsewhere are struggling to pay their water bills. We are encouraging all water companies to introduce social tariffs to reduce those bills in order to help people who would otherwise struggle to pay them, and we will publish final guidance on the design of the tariffs in the spring.
My hon. Friends the Members for St Ives (Andrew George) and for Newton Abbot (Anne Marie Morris) were keen for us to expand the existing reach of the WaterSure scheme. I assure the House that we have considered that carefully, but, as Members will appreciate, we have to make tough decisions about the use of limited public funds.
Richard Benyon
I am sorry, but I cannot.
My hon. Friend the Member for Newton Abbot expressed the fear that not all household customers would receive assistance. We know that in some cases the bill payer is the landlord or manager, for example in a park home, a block of flats or sheltered accommodation. I assure my hon. Friend that we are working with South West Water to ensure that the money reaches the people, in whatever residence they live.
As the water White Paper explained, keeping water affordable is vital, but it is also vital for us to use water more efficiently. While there are many uncertainties in connection with the weather, the one thing of which we can be certain is that it will become more unpredictable. That is why we are taking action now, and why we are responsible for ensuring that we use water wisely so that we can retain a secure water supply in the months and years ahead.
I am grateful for the support of Members in all parts of the Chamber, and I commend the Bill to the House.
Question put and agreed to.
Bill accordingly read a Second time.
Water Industry (financial assistance) Bill (programme)
Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 83A(7)),
That the following provisions shall apply to the Water Industry (Financial Assistance) Bill:
Committal
1. The Bill shall be committed to a Committee of the whole House.
Proceedings in Committee, on consideration and on Third Reading
2. Proceedings in Committee, any proceedings on consideration and proceedings on Third Reading shall be completed at one day’s sitting.
3. On that day, proceedings in Committee and any proceedings on consideration shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion one hour before the moment of interruption.
4. On that day, proceedings on Third Reading shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion at the moment of interruption.
5. Standing Order No. 83B (Programming committees) shall not apply to proceedings in Committee of the whole House, any proceedings on consideration or proceedings on Third Reading.
Other proceedings
6. Any other proceedings on the Bill (including any proceedings on consideration of Lords Amendments or on any further messages from the Lords) may be programmed.—(Mr Vara.)
Question agreed to.
Water Industry (financial assistance) Bill (Money)
Queen’s Recommendation signified.
Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 52(1)(a),
That, for the purposes of any Act resulting from the Water Industry (Financial Assistance) Bill, it is expedient to authorise-
(1) the payment out of money provided by Parliament of any expenditure incurred by the Secretary of State by virtue of the Act, and
(2) the payment of sums into the Consolidated Fund.—(Mr Vara.)
Question agreed to.
Oral Answers to Questions
Lord Benyon Excerpts(12 years, 4 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Mr Adam Holloway (Gravesham) (Con)
3. What recent discussions she has had on water resources; and if she will make a statement.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon)
Our water White Paper set out the challenges we face to ensure we have resilient and sustainable water resources. The current drought illustrates the importance of planning for the future when our water resources are expected to come under more pressure from climate change and a growing population. We will need to be smarter and less wasteful in how we use existing water resources, develop new sources, and build greater connectivity across the network.
Julian Sturdy
Does my hon. Friend agree that water security is an increasingly big issue, which we must tackle for the UK and the world, and that it will affect future generations if we do not significantly improve our water collection and storage, and the transfer of water from regions?
Richard Benyon
I entirely agree. That is why the Government got a grip on the matter through publishing our water White Paper before Christmas. We need to capture and use our water more efficiently. That means developing new water sources and greater interconnections, the need for which was never more apparent than now, when we face impending drought. I am pleased with how water companies are working together and with the Environment Agency, building resilience into our systems for emergency procedures now, but also for the medium to long term, when we will face different climatic conditions.
Mr Holloway
In Kent, a lot of our water comes from an underground chalk aquifer. What is its long-term sustainability, and what can the public and local businesses do to help?
Richard Benyon
My hon. Friend’s constituents, like mine, depend on that extraordinary geological feature, which contains millions of gallons of water. However, it is under real pressure at the moment, which is apparent from river flows. I had hoped that we would start to reverse the decline in some of our river flows this summer. Importantly, it is a demand as well as a supply situation, and we can all play our part in reducing the impact on aquifers. We had our drought summit last week to get people thinking now about the measures that they can take in their homes to reduce water usage.
Mr Denis MacShane (Rotherham) (Lab)
This is a serious matter, and I hope that the Under-Secretary read the speech that my hon. Friend the Member for Stockton North (Alex Cunningham) made yesterday, pointing out that there is an abundance of water in the north-east. I checked today, and Yorkshire Water’s reservoirs are 96% full. Is not the answer therefore to move more of our industry to the north? Perhaps we should relocate Gravesham and its excellent Member of Parliament to the north of England, where he will be made most welcome. There is the land and we need the industry. If we are to rebalance our industry and our economy, we should head north—the water is there.
Richard Benyon
The hon. Member for Stockton North (Alex Cunningham) made a very good speech yesterday, in which he pointed out the folly of the easy fix that people constantly suggest to me: building a vast pipeline from his constituency to mine. We know that that is prohibitively expensive, but we can get greater interconnectivity between water companies, and thus water flowing from areas where it is plentiful to areas where it is not.
Gavin Shuker (Luton South) (Lab/Co-op)
If tackling drought, conserving water and reforming abstraction are so important, why has the Secretary of State delayed her own Bill?
Richard Benyon
The hon. Gentleman presupposes what is—or is not—in the Queen’s Speech. I have to confess that I am not privy to that; the Queen will announce the contents. We have said that the Bill will be available for pre-legislative scrutiny, but we do not need a Bill to deal with many of the issues that we are discussing on the drought. We can introduce the abstraction incentive mechanism—a bit of a techy issue, but one that can make a difference right now to the sustainability of water supplies.
Naomi Long (Belfast East) (Alliance)
4. What assessment she has made of the Austrian constitutional court’s decision to dismiss the legal challenge against a ban on wild animals in circuses; and if she will bring forward proposals to implement such a ban in the UK.
Damian Collins (Folkestone and Hythe) (Con)
8. What recent discussions she has had with representatives of the insurance industry on the Government’s policy on maintaining coastal and inland flood defences.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon)
The Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs has had regular meetings with representatives of the insurance industry, and they include discussions about the future of flood insurance beyond June 2013. This is against the background of our continuing investment in flood and coastal defence.
Damian Collins
Does the Minister agree that there needs to be a more accurate assessment of flood risk? The residents of Romney Marsh in my constituency are living in a drought area and have seen £60 million spent on a new sea wall, yet they have been told that they might not get insurance cover after 2013.
Richard Benyon
I understand the frustration felt by my hon. Friend’s residents. The Environment Agency makes the latest flood risk information available to insurance companies, on licence, on a quarterly basis. The approaches of insurance companies vary considerably, however. Some have sophisticated risk models that reflect that information, while some upload it only on an annual basis and others continue to make assessments on a postcode basis. That is why we are working closely with the insurance industry to ensure that information is shared. The Environment Agency can write a letter to my hon. Friend’s constituents, which they can then use to show their insurance company that they are no longer have the degree of flood risk that they had before.
Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab)
Happy St David’s day, Mr Speaker.
In January this year, the Association of British Insurers released information to the national media stating that my constituency had the second highest number of homes in high flood risk areas in the whole country. The number that it quoted was 7,339, but the actual number is 500. The ABI was using old statistics. What can be done to minimise the time lapse between improvement works being carried out and householders’ bills being reduced?
Richard Benyon
I entirely understand the frustration that the hon. Gentleman’s constituents must feel. I am concentrating my efforts to secure an agreement that will lead beyond June 2013, when the statement of principles comes to an end. I also want to ensure that the information that is available is being used by insurance companies. Brokers are often the first point of contact, and we need to ensure that the information is shared with them as well. There are no state secrets involved in this; the Environment Agency has the information, and it makes it available on a quarterly basis, so it should be possible for the insurance companies to use it when calculating their premiums.
Chris Kelly (Dudley South) (Con)
9. What assessment she has made of the implications for her policy on waste of the Government’s strategy on metal theft.
Mr David Amess (Southend West) (Con)
T7. The fisheries Minister, my hon. Friend the Member for Newbury (Richard Benyon), responded to a Westminster Hall Adjournment debate that I secured last week. He heard that my constituent Paul Gilson had been fined £400,000 for catching too many fish. Please will my hon. Friend assure the House that the Government will now address the very unfair situation whereby under-10 metre fishing vessels comprise 85% of the fleet yet are allowed to catch only 4% of the stock?
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon)
As I made clear in that debate, seeking a fairer deal for the under-10s has been one of my main priorities. I will shortly announce the launch of six pilot schemes, under which fishermen will have more opportunities to catch fish. We have employed three coastal liaison officers to support them in both the management of their quota and the marketing of their produce.
Jessica Morden (Newport East) (Lab)
Household flood insurance policies for next year are being written this year. Can the Minister reassure my constituents who live in a flood-risk area that the Government are working on this with insurers now, because the problem will kick in before 2013?
Richard Benyon
I entirely understand that, which is why we announced before Christmas that we would come forward with a solution with the insurers in the spring. I am confident that it will be a solution that works. There will be a year to embed new systems for what will follow from the end of the statement of principles in June 2013.
Julian Sturdy (York Outer) (Con)
T8. As the Secretary of State will know, York, North Yorkshire and East Riding local enterprise partnership has asked for an investment of £3.25 million from DEFRA to create a rural growth network. I fully support the bid as that investment will bring substantial economic benefits to our region. Please will the Secretary of State look favourably upon the bid?
Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)
The Select Committee on Environment, Food and Rural Affairs has come up with a novel means of negotiating decision making on fisheries management back to the member states. Will the Secretary of State take this opportunity to amend the regulations, as part of the common fisheries policy, to end the micro-management from Brussels and enhance local decision making?
Richard Benyon
I will examine any suggestion that unpicks a system that has failed fishermen and the marine environment. I am putting all my energies into trying to get a meaningful reform that will enable the regional control of fisheries, taking this away from the micro-management by people who often sit about 1,000 miles away from the fishermen who are actually doing the work.
Alison Seabeck (Plymouth, Moor View) (Lab)
It is more than 14 months since the Department sought guidance from the Commission on how to achieve an uplift in area VII—I spell that out for the benefit of Hansard—effort.
[Hon. Members: “Seven”] Well, it is seven, but it has to be written as “VII”. Can the Minister therefore let those with scallop interests know when he expects that guidance to come forth, and what he is doing to speed things up?
Richard Benyon
I do understand that this is an important matter for area VII and I will make sure that I write to the hon. Lady with full details about how we are taking this scalloping order forward.
Mr Speaker
I just make the point that the Hansard reporters are immensely able and dexterous characters, and they are quite capable of doing Roman numerals without special coaching.
Water Industry (Financial Assistance) Bill
Lord Benyon Excerpts(12 years, 4 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Mary Creagh
I take it from that answer that there will not be a full water Bill in the Queen’s Speech this May. On the issue of abstraction, the proposals so far in the water White Paper talk about reforming the abstraction licence with an end date of 2027. The Secretary of State has had three drought summits—
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon)
Much can be done now.
Mr Bradshaw
That is absolutely right. I am afraid that water customers across the country are paying the price for this Government losing control of inflation. The reason we are all facing these massive increases in the current financial year and the next is that inflation is out of control. We in the south-west are suffering like everybody else. However welcome the £50 cut is, it will already have been wiped out by the time we get it. People will not notice it because their bills will be no lower than they were before, as a result of the two years of increases that they will suffer this year and the next.
We must stop the culture of annual increases, and I hope that the Government will do that when they bring forward their full water Bill. The hon. Member for St Ives is absolutely right about this. We always talk about the water industry as though it were the same as the gas industry, the electricity industry and the other privatised utilities, but it is not—it is a monopoly private provider. Customers in the south-west cannot choose where they get their water from. Admittedly there is also a problem in the energy industry, but people do have a limited choice of provider for their gas and electricity.
The other reason it is completely wrong to put water in the same category as the other privatised utilities is that water is plentiful. We live in a wet country; it rains. If it stops raining, we might as well all pack up go home, but that is not going to happen—we hope. Water is not like gas, electricity or oil, where the resources are finite. The Government must challenge the assumption that water prices should always rise. Given the advances in modern technology, there are strong arguments for water bills coming down rather than going up. I ask the Minister to look carefully at the structure of the industry and the strength of the regulator. For the reasons that the hon. Member for St Ives and I have mentioned, there is a very good argument for the water regulator being much stronger than the regulators of the other privatised utilities.
The Prime Minister is fond of making speeches about crony capitalism; well, he can show us his mettle by dealing with an industry that is a private monopoly where customers have no choice. The industry has its hands round their necks, they cannot go anywhere else, they are fed up, and they do not understand the inevitability of year-on-year increases.
Of course we have to improve our outdated infrastructure, and a lot of work has been done on that. However, when I hear industry spokespeople and Ministers saying that we are about to face a terrible drought, worse than that in 1976, I wonder why the industry and the Government have not looked more carefully at the idea of water trading, which I think has been mentioned by a Government Member. Why do we not pipe water from the Severn catchment area, where it is plentiful, to the Thames catchment area? That could be done quite cheaply. It is not hugely expensive or terrible for climate change, as the Secretary of State said in her opening remarks. A similar thing could be done across the country. My right hon. Friend the Member for Holborn and St Pancras (Frank Dobson) mentioned reservoir capacity.
There is no reason why in this country, which has a cool, temperate climate with plenty of rain, we should pay such high prices for our water. We should not accept inexorable rises year on year, particularly when families are feeling the pinch. I share the admiration of the hon. Member for St Ives for the current management of South West Water. However, in the increases that that company and the rest of the industry have asked for in this financial year and the next, they have not shown the sensitivity that they might have shown to the state of household finances.
Richard Benyon
I urge the right hon. Gentleman to read our water White Paper, which addressed many of the points that he is making. It was long overdue in doing so. It is important that water companies talk to each other about bulk trading, moving water and the connectivity between water company areas. That is precisely what the White Paper sought to achieve. It addressed a long-standing problem.
Mr Bradshaw
I look forward to the recommendations in the White Paper being implemented in legislation. I hope that that will happen in the next Session and that we will not have to wait another year or more, but there is talk of the legislative process being clogged up by House of Lords reform. We need this legislation as soon as possible to address the problem once and for all.
I will end my remarks on this point. The Bill is a welcome development, as far as it goes. Of course the £50 cut is welcome, regardless of the fact that it will be wiped out by the big increases in water bills this year and next. However, it is only a temporary solution to the problem in the south-west and nationally. Although it will assuage the public anger in the south-west over the cost of water bills temporarily, if those bill continue to go up every year, this bit of help will be but a distant memory in a few years’ time. I address my final remark as much to those on the Opposition Front Bench as to the Government. Whoever is in power has to grasp this nettle once and for all and reform this industry properly, so that it operates for the benefit of the consumer and the customer.
Rio+20 Summit
Lord Benyon Excerpts(12 years, 4 months ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon)
I should like to start by thanking the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent North (Joan Walley) for securing this timely debate, and by welcoming the contributions from both sides of the House. These discussions, and the strong parliamentary interest in them, are an important part of informing our approach to the negotiations. The hon. Lady led the debate with real knowledge and power. With the exception of the final speech, there has been fantastic cross-party support today. The hon. Member for East Lothian (Fiona O'Donnell) really read the mood of the House wrongly tonight, and she should reflect on that.
The Chairman of the Select Committee, the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent North, articulated a concept that is considered irrelevant and old fashioned in some quarters, but it is one that I believe to be totally relevant to the debate on Rio and on sustainability. It is the concept of stewardship. When we talk about the stewardship of our planet, we are talking about the future for our children and grandchildren—a point that my hon. Friend the Member for Sherwood (Mr Spencer) made particularly well. The hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) also made that point. This is the time to get this right. The hon. Member for Southampton, Test (Dr Whitehead) raised the prospect of Rio+40, and said that it would be a tragedy if we did not put in place the measures that we hope will come from this conference, and did not hold politicians of this generation to their commitments.
Our understanding of the need to green our economy and promote sustainable development has improved dramatically over the past 20 years. It is no longer something that we should do, but something that we need to do for future prosperity. It has been pointed out tonight that more than 1 billion people are living in poverty, that two thirds of the world’s ecosystems are in decline and that climate change will cost up to a quarter of global gross domestic product.
We are well aware of what is at stake here. This has been well articulated by the hon. Members for Gower (Martin Caton) and for Brighton, Pavilion and by my hon. Friends the Members for Enfield, Southgate (Mr Burrowes), for Cheltenham (Martin Horwood), for Sherwood and for Richmond Park (Zac Goldsmith), among many others. The key point is that the UK must and will take a leading role to secure a successful outcome in Rio.
Since our response to the Committee’s report, we have—as the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent North said—received the zero draft that will act as the basis of negotiations until June. We also have recommendations from the Secretary-General’s high-level panel on global sustainability, which was launched in London this week. With just four months to go, momentum is building and we are getting a clearer idea of what countries, NGOs and businesses are calling for. I should therefore like to make clear the UK priorities for Rio, which will go some way to addressing concerns raised here today, although I will of course pick up any further points.
I want to see Governments stand up at Rio and make a clear statement—a political declaration—that sustainable development is the only way forward. We need to make it absolutely clear that long-term, sustainable, climate-resilient growth is possible only if we use natural resources sustainably and tackle poverty. In the UK, we have shown our commitment to green growth through a raft of policies and initiatives, including our publication “Enabling the Transition to a Green Economy”, which provides businesses with the certainty and clarity to innovate, invest and grow in a green way.
Richard Benyon
I want to make a bit of progress, if the hon. Lady will allow me.
We have established the green investment bank with £3 billion-worth of funding. Together with the green deal, it will accelerate green investment by businesses and households. We have introduced a carbon floor price that will come into force from April next year. We have published the natural environment White Paper—the Government’s vision of how to protect and improve the natural environment over the next 50 years—with 92 recommendations for action.
Yesterday morning I stood at the top of the Wiltshire downs with a really enthusiastic group of farmers and people from the local community as we launched one of the nature improvement areas—a really exciting prospect. At Rio, we must ensure that the commitment to green growth is secured at the international level—it needs tangible outcomes—which will help all countries move to a sustainable growth path.
Fiona O'Donnell
The Minister cannot have it both ways. He cannot come to this House singing the praises of his Department and then not expect us to hold it accountable for its record at home. Will he give a commitment now to mandatory reporting of carbon emissions?
Richard Benyon
I will come on to that. I said a little earlier that the hon. Lady had misread the mood of the House—and she still seems to be doing so. I will answer her points later.
A key part of Rio will be an agreement on the sustainable development goals—a priority for the UK, on which we are working closely with our EU and international partners. There is a lot to do on fleshing out SDGs, but we want to lead the way in helping to develop this thinking. The Secretary of State met a group of Ministers in Nairobi last week and the Colombian Environment Minister here today. We need a renewed focus on tackling the major sustainability issues of access to food, sustainable energy and water.
We need to focus on global challenges. Agriculture, water and energy are fundamental to our economy, and provide livelihoods for the world’s poorest people. By 2030, the world will need at least 50% more food, 45% more energy and 30% more water. These are massive issues. We have tried to do our bit in government by reflecting the concerns that we know future generations will face—for example in our water White Paper published just before Christmas, which set out how we will approach the resilience of our economy and natural environment to provide the water we need in the future.
We need a clear course of action on food security and sustainable agriculture, which is climate smart, reduces waste and takes into account water resources. We need to be clear that access to clean and safe water is a prerequisite for green growth. Just last week, we were discussing drought here in the UK—a country famous for its rainfall. In China, which has 20% of the world’s population but only 6% of its water resources, half of which are undrinkable, access to water resources will only become more important. The UN Secretary-General's “Sustainable Energy for All” initiative is an important step towards increasing sustainable energy, energy efficiency and the use of renewables.
We want to see outcomes that will put sustainability at the heart of decision making. This includes a commitment to go beyond gross domestic product so as to account for natural and social values, too. Many hon. Members touched on this issue. It is vital that we articulate it not just in the high-level conversations—or high-falutin’ ones, as one hon. Member put it—but at the local level. Several hon. Members stressed that we have to carry people with us in these arguments. I was particularly impressed with how my hon. Friend the Member for Sherwood brought the argument down to the household level, as it is crucial to impact on households now and in the future.
The UK has a lot to share at Rio: through our national ecosystems assessment, through the Prime Minister’s work on well-being and through work stemming from our natural environment White Paper, we can begin to put natural value at the heart of decision making. A number of Members referred to the Government’s agenda in that regard. I was particularly taken by what was said by my hon. Friend the Member for Camborne and Redruth (George Eustice) and by the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion. We are trying to value natural capital in the context of our economic well-being, of which it is a vital element, and we will shortly announce the membership of the natural capital committee. However, it is impossible to value a view: there must still be an element of the spiritual and uplifting benefits of nature that we all experience, and it is important that we articulate that.
The natural capital committee will advise the Government on our natural capital, and our work with the Office for National Statistics will embed it in our environmental accounts by 2020. Our guidance entitled “Accounting for Environmental Impacts” will help Departments to reflect the value of nature in decision making. Our ecosystems market taskforce—led by Ian Cheshire, chief executive of the Kingfisher group—will look at opportunities for businesses in new green goods and services, which form a vital part of our work in the future. Our work with the World Bank on its “Wealth Accounting and Valuation of Ecosystem Services” will pilot new approaches to wealth accounting in developing countries.
As has been said we also need greater resource efficiency and a commitment to reducing inefficient and environmentally harmful subsidies, including fossil fuel subsidies. In the UK alone, resource efficiency could provide £23 billion-worth of savings, or £2.9 trillion globally per annum, and the EU is well placed to lead on that through its “Roadmap to a Resource Efficient Europe”.
As the Government have noted, action by Governments alone will not be enough. Rio needs to engage the private sector actively so that it plays its part in delivering a greener economy through trade, innovation and investment. However, a Government can facilitate the transition by, for instance, reducing environmentally harmful subsidies. A number of Members mentioned fishing. Let me assure my hon. Friend the Member for Richmond Park that the Government’s agenda on fisheries partnership agreements is right up there in terms of reform of the common fisheries policy. It is entirely wrong that, having failed to put our own house in order, we are now inflicting bad management on some of the people in this world who can least afford it, and I assure my hon. Friend that dealing with that is an absolute priority for me.
We will be able to assist by incentivising research and development and innovation, by increasing resource efficiency, to which we have referred in the context of the water White Paper, by getting price signals right—I have mentioned the carbon floor in that connection—by valuing and accounting for natural resources, by making the best use of standards and voluntary approaches such as labelling and procurement, and by developing indicators of green growth. We have been engaging businesses in relation to possible outcomes from Rio, for example through the Green Economy Council.
Richard Benyon
I am sorry; I cannot give way.
We know that UK businesses are world leaders in green growth. Marks and Spencer saved more than £70 million last year through a combination of efficiency savings and new business. That compares with £50 million the year before.
Joan Walley
I hoped that, before our time ran out, the Minister would tell us whether the Prime Minister would be going to the summit, and when we could expect an announcement about that.
Richard Benyon
A very strong message has been conveyed by this debate. The hon. Lady knows that I cannot give an absolute commitment one way or the other. As was made clear to her Committee, the Prime Minister thinks that this is an absolute priority. The Secretary of State will be going, and whether or not the Prime Minister can go will be announced in the near future.
As I was saying and as was said earlier, businesses are leading the way, and to an extent Government must follow. We know that the Brazilians are planning to bring non-governmental organisations and the private sector together before the ministerial segment, and I hope that a range of UK businesses and NGOs will help to shape the negotiations that follow. We have also encouraged the Brazilians to hold a trade fair to showcase the opportunities that the transition to a green economy can offer. It is important to note that politicians will not just be talking to each other: there will be engagement with business, the voluntary sector, NGOs and, of course, Governments.
These are our high-level priorities for Rio. The areas where we think we can make a real difference include the sustainable development goals, agriculture and energy, valuing natural capital and corporate sustainability. Rio is above all a negotiation, and we will be working hard with the EU Commissioner and member states to ensure that Europe has a strong voice. We will also need to work with our international—
Flood Defences (Exeter)
Lord Benyon Excerpts(12 years, 4 months ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon)
I congratulate the right hon. Member for Exeter (Mr Bradshaw) on securing the debate on a matter that is of great concern to his constituents. Nothing would please me more than to be able to protect the nearly 4,000 properties that are currently at risk in Exeter. I hope that we can make progress in the coming months and have a scheme in place as quickly as possible.
I am sympathetic to the need to improve the existing flood defences in Exeter. First, let me be clear on the record that flood and coastal erosion risk management is an absolute priority for the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs. The Government are committed to protecting people and property from flooding and coastal erosion where it is sustainable and affordable to do so. The right hon. Gentleman raised the issue of spending. I want this to be a constructive debate that focuses on the needs of his constituents, but we are talking about a 6% difference in this spending round compared with the previous spending round. In the context of cuts to Departments such as DEFRA of approximately 30%, that shows the absolute priority that we are giving flood and coastal erosion risk management, coupled with the efficiencies being found in the Environment Agency budget to spend more on the front line and on the partnership funding, which I will come on to talk about and which will be important for the aspirations of his constituents.
Mr Bradshaw
I have no desire to turn the debate into political ping-pong, but Lord Smith, the chairman of the Environment Agency, talked about a cut in cash terms of approximately 27%. The figures for capital investment by DEFRA for flooding work between 2010-11, the last figure of Labour spend, and 2011-12, are £354 million down to £259 million—a 27% cut in anyone’s terms.
Richard Benyon
The right hon. Gentleman, who was a Minister in DEFRA, will understand that these things are done in spending rounds. Very few flood schemes go from conception to commissioning in one year, which is why we base it over a spending review period. The excellent chairman of the Environment Agency will confirm—our figures have been sent to the Public Accounts Committee—that there is a 6% difference. The last Chancellor in the previous Labour Government, of which the right hon. Gentleman was a member, announced shortly before the general election that there would be 50% capital cuts in budgets. I will be generous to the right hon. Gentleman and say that if his party had won the general election it would not have cut the capital budget by 50%, but it would certainly have cut it. I think that he would have also implemented all the recommendations of the Pitt review into those very damaging floods in 2007, part of which form the basis of the partnership funding system that we have introduced, and part of which resulted in the implementation of local flood risk management through lead local flood authorities. That is very important for communities such as his, and I hope that we can work together constructively in the coming months to achieve a result for those people.
It is the nature of flood and coastal defence investment that there are always more projects than national budgets can afford at any one time—there always have been and, sadly, always will be. Some 5.2 million homes are at risk from flooding and we want to protect as many of them as possible. Funding has always needed to be prioritised, and that would be the case even if capital budgets had not been reduced in the spending review.
As we have heard today, the Environment Agency is developing an option for Exeter that is expected to cost £25 million over its lifetime. Under the new partnership funding system, that might attract approximately £13 million funded by the general taxpayer. That leaves a shortfall of £12 million. Many schemes are funded totally by the taxpayer. What we have now in our partnership funding scheme is a totally transparent system. For years, communities such as the right hon. Gentleman’s wanted schemes like this to go ahead, always believing that total funding by the taxpayer would be available, but always just missing out and never knowing why—now they can see a transparent funding system.
The right hon. Gentleman talked about the “independent” Environment Agency. It is part of DEFRA; it is the Government in terms of spending flood money. The people in the Environment Agency are the experts. They have developed that transparent funding system on the lines of the recommendations of the Pitt review and have come up with the scoring for what can be achieved for his community.
Exeter is an excellent example of why we have had to change the funding approach and introduce the partnership funding scheme. The new approach follows recommendations made by Sir Michael Pitt’s review of the 2007 flooding, in which he said that local communities should be allowed and encouraged to invest in flood risk management measures so that more can be done and more schemes can be introduced. He also said that future investment plans should not simply assume that the cost of flood alleviation is met centrally. Those recommendations were accepted fully by the Government. If we had carried on with the old system, we would be placing an ever-increasing burden on the general taxpayer to meet the long-term costs of flood defence alone. Those costs are expected to rise considerably with our changing climate, as the right hon. Gentleman predicted in his speech.
The old system artificially constrained how much could be done in each town and city because Government funding has always been, and always will be, limited. The old system meant that schemes were either funded in full, or not at all, based on top-down decisions. Many worthwhile schemes, such as in Exeter, were knocked back for funding, in many cases without a realistic prospect of ever going forward. At a cost of £25 million, the Exeter scheme would have been in that category, doomed never to have had a high enough priority for full funding. Transparency and greater local involvement is at the heart of the new partnership funding system. Instead of meeting the full costs of a limited number of schemes, national funds are spread further in order to achieve more overall. Many schemes will continue to be fully funded, where value for taxpayers’ money is sufficiently strong.
In other cases, such as Exeter, national funding is available to part-fund the project. This approach creates space within the system for local and private contributions to help pay for the significant benefits to land, property, infrastructure and other assets realised when defences are built. There are potentially many sources of funding to tap in to, both public and private.
Last year, the community of Morpeth found itself in a similar position to Exeter. The proposed scheme in that area did not meet the old criteria for full funding, so it was deferred, potentially indefinitely. Under the new approach, the Government were able to meet around half of the costs of the scheme. Leadership was shown by Northumberland county council, meaning that the scheme is now fully funded and will proceed in the coming months, with half the money—coincidentally, up to £12 million—met from local sources. This example shows the power of the new system, and there are many others that I would like to point to; this is important in addressing one of the right hon. Gentleman’s points.
In south Derbyshire, Nestlé contributed £1.7 million to a £7 million scheme to protect 1,600 homes and further financial contributions have been made from industry and other means. In other areas, the planning system has been used to unlock schemes, whether through section 106 money or some other form of funding, rather like exception site housing schemes in rural communities. The income from those schemes goes to deal with flood and coastal erosion risk management. In respect of another scheme in York, York city council is finding the money to bring it above the line.
The new system has already helped secure £72 million of external funding for schemes in the next three years—more than 500% higher than during the previous spending period.
Richard Benyon
If the hon. Gentleman will let me finish this point.
Early indications suggest up to a third more schemes are likely to proceed than if we had kept up the old all-or-nothing system.
Richard Benyon
The county council provided funding from its capital budget. I am not going to sit at my desk—once the right hon. Gentleman’s—and try to dictate the balance of contributions from district or county councils, businesses or whatever. That is the purpose of implementing the Pitt recommendations. These should be local decisions.
There is at least clarity. If I made an exception and broke away from the clear rules that guide the scoring of schemes, I am sure that, given his previous position in DEFRA, the right hon. Gentleman would be the first to recognise that I would be called back to this Chamber, rightly, by hon. Members from all parties, asking, “Why have you made an exception? Why have you broken the clear guidelines that you have set to favour one scheme?”
I have huge sympathy for the right hon. Gentleman’s constituents. I want this scheme to go ahead.
Despite the economic situation, DEFRA plans to spend more than £2.17 billion on flood and coastal erosion risk management. The latest projections suggest that we are on course to exceed our target to protect 145,000 households by March 2015.
Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP)
Will the Minister share those examples, principles and policies with the Northern Ireland Executive, because we obviously have coastal erosion and areas of flooding in Northern Ireland, which, frankly, the authorities have been dilatory in managing and dealing with? It would be worth while sharing with our own Government in Northern Ireland the examples that the Minister has shared with hon. Members, so that we can learn from them.
Richard Benyon
I am happy to share everything. There are no state secrets in what we are doing here. We just want more schemes to go ahead. I am happy to share examples with ministerial colleagues, the Northern Ireland Executive and anyone else who is interested.
We are learning and our learning curve is steep. I am impressed with how the Environment Agency has implemented this new scheme over this year. The fact that we are able to take on more than 60 new schemes in the indicative list for the coming year shows that it is working.
Let me answer some other points made by the right hon. Gentleman. He defined the statement of principles as ensuring that insurance was available to every household and used the words, “at reasonable rates”. Actually, that is inaccurate. The statement of principles does not influence pricing. It never did; that is part of the problem. Some 2,500 homes in my constituency were flooded in 2007, many of which can get insurance because of the statement of principles, but the high premiums and high excess charges are really testing some people.
Is there urgency about how we progress in our dealings with the insurance industry? Absolutely. Do we want an arrangement moving forward from 20 June 2013 that still ensures that insurance is widely available? Absolutely. We will make an announcement in the spring that will give a full year for new systems to be in place, providing clarity and ensuring that insurance is freely available. We hope that we will also be able to announce that there will continue to be some sort of pool arrangement for those in flood-risk areas who are on low incomes. That is important.
It is also important to note that partnership funding has weighting for communities where there are high levels of deprivation, because we recognise that there is a lack of capacity in many such areas to take forward schemes under partnership funding and there is a desperate need to resolve these issues so that some vulnerable people can be protected. Therefore there is a weighting in favour of such systems.
In the past, insurers have charged everyone in a pool system, so that constituents of the right hon. Gentleman, and mine, who do not live in areas of high flood risk are subsidising those who do. The statement of principles always was going to end in 2013, whoever was in Government. We are desperately keen to find a solution that takes things forward.
The Association of British Insurers, which is, rightly, a lobbying organisation on behalf of large financial institutions, says that it needs a Government subsidy—a taxpayer subsidy—for the insurance industry. That is not realistic, but we think that there is a way forward and that we can work with the industry and find a solution. I assure the right hon. Gentleman and all hon. Members that we are working to achieve that.
The right hon. Gentleman mentioned the Public Accounts Committee’s criticisms of the partnership funding scheme. I will make the same point that I made when those were published: we are implementing the recommendations of the Pitt inquiry, rightly instigated by the previous Government. Pitt made 92 recommendations, in a good report. We are implementing its recommendations on partnership funding and the local aspect—the creation of lead local flood authorities—giving local authorities the capacity to take forward flood and coastal erosion risk management. That is working well.
Will we review partnership funding? We are constantly reviewing it; we want to streamline this new concept and get it right, but as I said earlier, it is not for me to dictate whether a local council, a district council or any others provide that added element of the funding. It is wrong to say that we want hard-pressed council tax payers to dig deeper into their pockets. There are various ways in which this funding is found. Yes, sometimes local authorities step up to the mark, but that is by no means always so.
Under the latest capital programme, 22 schemes are going ahead in Devon and Cornwall this coming year, with a total of £5 million grant-in-aid funding during 2012-13, including the construction of improved flood defences in Braunton, Ottery St Mary, St Ives, Stoke Canon, Teignmouth and Truro, and a further 49 projects in Devon and Cornwall have indicative funding for 2013-14 or later, subject to confirmation of the outcomes, cost and partnership funding arrangements.
I recognise that this matter is important to the right hon. Gentleman and his constituents. I have had constructive conversations with colleagues from all parties, many of which have resulted in successful commencement or announcement of schemes, and I assure the right hon. Gentleman that I will continue to work with him to try to achieve a good result for the people of Exeter.
Fishing Quotas
Lord Benyon Excerpts(12 years, 4 months ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon)
I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Southend West (Mr Amess) for speaking with passion about his friend and constituent and about the fishing industry and representing, like many hon. Members, his local fishing community.
I will talk about the Marine Management Organisation, how it works and how we try to regulate fisheries. I will also briefly touch on how I, as the Fisheries Minister, am trying to improve the lot of the under-10-metre fishermen and the entire fleet with different activities that we are taking in the Department, to see a reversal in the decline of a once-noble industry.
From my conversations with fishermen around the country, one message that they are keen to relay is that those who commit fisheries offences are taking fish from their fellow fishermen; I am making a general comment here about those who land black fish, not a specific one. It is vital that we do all that we can to achieve compliance with the law and to protect fish stocks and the livelihoods of legitimate fishermen from criminal activities that affect them. If fish are landed illegally and sold, they are black fish and their value is stolen from legitimate fisherman. I make that point unashamedly to the whole fishing industry across all the United Kingdom’s waters and all the EU’s waters, for which I take my responsibility as the UK Fisheries Minister seriously.
Decisions on the investigation and prosecution of fisheries offences are not taken by me or my officials, as my hon. Friend rightly pointed out. To maintain fish stocks, laws are set at European and national levels. We could have a debate about that, and I would probably start at the position taken by him and many other hon. Members that one would not start from here, and we want to see some changes. However, the MMO has the duty to enforce those laws.
I have spoken before and often about the difficult decisions the MMO has had to make. The MMO is a measured and proportionate organisation in its approach, with a strong commitment to transparency and impartiality. I will explain why. Enforcement action against illegal activity on our seas is one of many activities the MMO undertakes. It may be useful if I provide a brief overview of the legal framework within which those decisions are taken. I urge all hon. Members who have fishing interests in constituencies that are potentially affected by the MMO’s rulings to make contact either with their local MMO officer or to visit its headquarters in Newcastle, as I have done on a number of occasions. I urge them to do that because they will see a committed organisation trying to do its best in a complicated world, where the vast majority of fishermen do good, but some sadly do not.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
The Minister had an opportunity to visit Portavogie in my constituency the week before last. He had the chance to meet some of the people who have the 10-metre-and-under boat size. They expressed to him their concerns about the bureaucracy and the system whereby the proceeds of crime are used against them. Was the Minister able to give them some comfort on the days that he met them? If so, what was the outcome?
Richard Benyon
I hope that I will be able to give the hon. Gentleman some comfort when I discuss how the Proceeds of Crime Act 2002 is—although it usually is not—involved in the prosecution of fishermen when illegality or bad maladministration has taken place.
For all its faults and vices, the EU fisheries control regulation requires all member states to have an effective, proportionate and dissuasive system of administrative and criminal sanctions, which should effectively deprive those responsible of the economic benefit derived from their infringement.
Sheryll Murray
Will the Minister confirm that the same penalties will apply to a fisherman who is a member of a producer organisation as to a fisherman who is operating under the MMO’s own system with an under-10-metre vessel?
Richard Benyon
Absolutely. No distinction is made between size of vessel, who owns the vessel or where the fishing opportunity rests.
The regulation goes on to say that sanctions must be capable of producing results proportionate to the seriousness of such infringements, thereby effectively discouraging further offences of the same kind. It also says that member states may apply a system whereby a fine is proportionate to the turnover of the business, or to the financial advantage achieved or envisaged by committing the infringement. That is the background against which the MMO must operate. I urge my hon. Friend the Member for Southend West to read the MMO’s compliance and enforcement strategy, which it published on its website last autumn. That demonstrates its practical approach in helping people to achieve compliance.
As I have already said, my officials and I are not involved in operational decisions relating to fisheries investigation cases, and it would not be right for me to offer solutions or direction on the case my hon. Friend has raised or on any other case. However, I will say that the MMO does not take decisions to prosecute fish merchants or fishermen lightly. I have looked into the matter in great detail. The MMO is astute and recognises that the vast majority of the fishing industry is compliant with the rules that govern it and that only a small percentage break the law. The MMO understands that education, guidance and advice is the best approach to achieving compliance in the fishing industry in most cases.
Decisions to prosecute are taken only when all other efforts to achieve compliance have been exhausted, or the nature of offending is on such a scale or is so persistent that prosecution is the only appropriate action available. The MMO will only prosecute fisheries offences after careful and detailed consideration of the relative involvement of individual offenders. In every case, the MMO will scrutinise the seriousness of the alleged offences detected and select the most appropriate course of action. In serious cases, where people are found guilty of criminal offences, their behaviour may warrant a confiscation order, so that the money made from their criminal activity is returned to the public purse. I hope that I am explaining how the system works.
Mr Alan Campbell (Tynemouth) (Lab)
My fishermen believe in the rule of law as much as anyone else and would want those who benefit from criminality to lose the proceeds that they get from that. However, their view is that, in these instances, the response is wholly disproportionate. They are also concerned that education is one thing, but trying to govern law-abiding fishermen through fear is entirely different.
Richard Benyon
I thank the hon. Gentleman for making that point. I reassure him that I want to make sure that all the sanctions are applied proportionately. My hon. Friend the Member for Southend West has asked me to reflect. I always reflect on what he says because he puts it with such force and panache. I will also reflect on what the hon. Member for Tynemouth (Mr Campbell) has brought to this debate and ensure that we can reassure his constituents. The MMO should use the Proceeds of Crime Act 2002 sparingly. It has done so on only five occasions in the past 12 months of its existence. Only two of the cases were fish dealers, who were significantly mis-recording the landing and selling of quota species.
The MMO uses the 2002 Act where a prosecutor who, by law, acts independently of the Government and the MMO considers action under that Act is necessary to remove the unlawful benefit to deter similar offending fishermen. Those two Proceeds of Crime Act cases are unusual, and the MMO’s approach to compliance, as I stated before, is ordinarily via education and guidance. For example, in 2011, the MMO carried out 2,862 vessel inspections, and the majority of infringements detected resulted in the MMO offering oral advice to achieve compliance on 396 separate occasions. Some 83 written warnings were issued and seven financial administrative penalties were levied. Only 22 prosecution cases were brought, only two of which resulted in confiscation orders such as those that we are discussing today.
As my hon. Friend the Member for Southend West says, I cannot go into the details of the case. However, in the case of Mr Gilson, who is both a fisherman and a buyer and seller of fish, the court felt that the financial benefit of almost £425,000 that was omitted should result in a repayment by Mr Gilson of £395,000. That sounds like a lot of money, but it is proportionate in relation to the amount that was admitted.
In the few minutes I have left, I will respond to the other issues. One of the criticisms of the fishing industry is that we are harder on our own fishermen than we are on overseas fishermen. The biggest order under the 2002 Act was for £1,163,000, which related to a foreign fishing vessel that was fishing illegally. Another case of interest was a fishing boat that was unlicensed. It was nicking fish from our fishermen, and it was prosecuted by the MMO, to the applause and gratitude of the fishermen in that area.
I have said that I will reflect on the points that my hon. Friend raised, and I will. I urge him to look at the proposals that we are making to improve the lot of the under-10-metre fleet. That involves taking quota that is unused by other elements of the fleet and using it to supplement the under-10-metre fleet, which, as he rightly says, receives an unfair allocation. The statistically correct figure is 4%. The 96% that the larger sector has includes some stocks that the under-10-metre sector would never access because they are so far away. However, statistically, he is right. I want to correct the unfairness that he has so eloquently pointed out. That is why, in the next few weeks, we will be making proposals that will lead to enhanced fishing opportunities for the under-10-metre fleet in three or four pilot projects around the country.
We have employed people to assist in ensuring that the relevant quota reaches the fishermen who deserve it and that the transfer of unused quota will mean there is a fairer allocation. Quotas that are unused will be accessed by fishermen around our coasts, who will continue to support their vital rural and coastal communities in a law-abiding way.
My hon. Friend asked about the Select Committee report on who owns quotas. I agree with him. It is bizarre that we do not know. That is the product of the bizarre system that we have inherited, and we in the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs are seeking to correct that by finding out who does own quota and making sure that it is used properly.
I urge my hon. Friend to have faith in the MMO. It is doing a wide variety of different work and has some good people in it working hard. The compliance work is never easy, but it is important because, speaking generally, when illegal fishing takes place and illegal fish are landed, those fish have been stolen from the law-abiding fishermen whom we must protect. For that reason, we need a good and robust system. It is not just the EU that is doing this; other countries, such as Norway, run very strict sanction systems as well.
Gangmasters Licensing Authority
Lord Benyon Excerpts(12 years, 4 months ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon)
I start by paying tribute to the hon. Member for Edinburgh South (Ian Murray) for raising this important matter. I am desperate not to sound patronising; it is in the finest tradition of this House, when the Government are considering a way forward, for the Opposition—rightly—to push their view and to push the Government in the direction they want.
It has been a useful debate and a very good one, showing the passion that surrounds the issue, and reminding us that the Gangmasters Licensing Authority was created at the time of an appalling tragedy, which we must never forget. We narrowly avoided a repeat this year in the Ribble estuary when there was a bonanza—a sort of Klondike operation—for cockle-picking. Interestingly, as my hon. Friend the Member for Southport (John Pugh) said, the GLA worked well in those circumstances with the local authority, the Inshore Fisheries and Conservation Authority, the police and the Marine and Coastguard Agency to close down that activity. I deeply regret that the fishery had to be closed, but it was necessary because of the activities of certain people; in many cases it was individuals who were involved, but there was also some evidence of illegality. That is an example of the GLA working well with other agencies.
I am pleased to have a debate today about the future of the GLA. It is a body that the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs sponsors because its remit is focused on agriculture and food processing. As has been mentioned, normally the Minister of State would have responded. However, today is a significant one in the farming calendar and he is attending the National Farmers Union annual conference in Birmingham. So, too, is the Secretary of State, who made a keynote speech at the conference this morning. In that speech she announced the publication of our response to the farm regulation taskforce.
As hon. Members would expect, the taskforce, which was chaired by Richard Macdonald, had a very informed view about the work of the authority and made recommendations on how the GLA might be improved. The GLA is also subject to continuing Government reviews, including one on workplace rights compliance and enforcement, and the red tape challenge, which have been mentioned by hon. Members. The review process is under way and the views that have been expressed today, very eloquently, will be considered as part of that. We have already announced, and confirmed in our response to the farm regulation taskforce, that we endorse the need for the GLA to enforce protection for vulnerable workers in the relevant sector—those who are least able to take action on their own account. I hope that that offers some reassurance to hon. Members.
I want to take up some of the points that were made, and I have already alluded to cross-agency working; we must not think that the GLA operates in a bubble. It is vital, particularly when it works in areas of high criminality and large amounts of money—where there can be criminality through the supply chain—that it should work with other agencies. That holistic approach is important. The hon. Member for Wrexham (Ian Lucas) talked in an intervention about health and safety legislation and I would link that with the point made by the hon. Member for Birmingham, Erdington (Jack Dromey) about regulation and where the Government sit on those two matters. I assure him and other hon. Members that there is no clove or garlic or cross in my hand. We are not talking about no regulation, or less regulation per se; we are talking about better regulation. We are not talking about ending health and safety legislation through any Government review or challenge. What we want is regulation that is better, more fleet of foot and less cumbersome, but also effective. We want to provide that for employers, who will hopefully, in the future, employ people who are currently unemployed; and we want it to be part of the rights of workers, wherever they come from.
We will continue to look at what more the GLA needs to do to tackle non-compliant high-risk operators while also reducing unnecessary burdens on those who are compliant. Those are complementary and mutually reinforcing goals, which we are keen to bring about. We are actively looking at what needs to be done to ensure that they happen. We are not—with respect to the GLA and employment law more widely—removing essential protections for vulnerable workers. What we are doing is about ensuring that there is a legislative framework that safeguards workers’ rights while reducing onerous and unnecessary demands on business. I hope that hon. Members understand that. That is surely an objective we all can, and should, share.
It is also important that the GLA should continue to be supported by industry, including by retailers who work with the authority because they want to maximise assurance about the proper working of the supply chain. I entirely take the point that was raised by hon. Members about good farmers, employers and businesses being disadvantaged by those who act illegally. It is important that we understand that. The GLA should also be supported by labour providers and other employers, who need to be able to operate on a level playing field, where good employers are not undercut by those who seek to gain a competitive advantage by flouting the law and taking advantage of their workers.
I am happy to recognise that the GLA is widely regarded in many circles as having brought about significant improvements to the treatment of the most vulnerable workers in the areas it regulates. I join the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) in paying tribute to the staff of the GLA, and to those who were at its birth and campaigned for it. Often the workers about whom we are concerned share a number of common factors: they have no fixed place of work; they are located in rural and less accessible settings; they are undocumented and often unsupervised labour; they are low-skilled migrant workers with little or no working knowledge of English, and accommodation or transport is provided as part of their employment. However, the GLA’s experience of operating under the terms of the Gangmasters (Licensing) Act 2004 suggests that there is room for a number of improvements. It is clear, for example, that there are areas that it covers that are dominated not by the presence of vulnerable workers who are at risk, but by skilled workers who are articulate and more than capable of enforcing their own employment rights.
Richard Benyon
I am conscious of the time, and I want to get on to the point about the construction industry, if the hon. Gentleman will forgive me.
The issue I have just outlined is one of those that we want to look at in more detail as part of the ongoing red tape challenge process. We want to come forward with proposals on it in due course. Building on the successes it has already had in improving its operations, the GLA is running its own pilot project in the forestry sector, designed to apply a light-touch enforcement approach. To answer the point made by the hon. Member for Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies), the forestry regulation taskforce will report shortly, and make some recommendations, which will no doubt be of great interest to him.
There was some talk in the debate about the construction industry, which is obviously not an area covered by my Department. However, the industry has made significant improvements in the past 10 years in the number of serious accidents and fatalities. I cannot say that about agriculture, which is the industry I come from. I am not proud of that. I am happy to debate the issue when we have more time, but the Government are considering the issue of enforcement as a whole, across Government. No doubt the statistics will be part of that. We are not talking just about safety in the sense of health and the number of fatalities in an industry, but about exploitation, which is more complex and requires a more nuanced approach. There is a lack of hard evidence about employment abuses in construction. It does not feature in the Low Pay Commission’s top 12 low pay sectors. According to data from the annual survey of hours and earnings, only 0.7% of construction workers were paid at the national minimum wage rate in April 2009. Pay is sometimes below union-negotiated rates but above the minimum and not illegal. The issue then is not about extending the scope of the GLA—