British Waterways Board

Lord Benyon Excerpts

Tuesday 19th June 2012 Written Statements

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon)]

In advance of the forthcoming debate on the draft British Waterways Board (Transfer of Functions) Order 2012, I am placing in the Libraries of both Houses a copy of the draft British Waterways Board transfer scheme 2012 and a copy of the draft Waterways Infrastructure Trust.

If Parliament approves the transfer of functions order, it will, when made, transfer the statutory functions of the British Waterways Board in England and Wales to the Canal & River Trust. The transfer scheme will come into force in conjunction with that order and will be made under section 23 of the Public Bodies Act 2011. It will divide and transfer the property, rights and liabilities of the British Waterways Board between the Canal & River Trust, the Canal & River Trust Community Interest Company—Canal & River Trading CIC—and the British Waterways Board, as it continues to operate in Scotland.

As a default provision, except where provided for elsewhere in the transfer scheme, all property, rights and liabilities of the British Waterways Board will transfer to the Canal & River Trust. This is to ensure that the British Waterways Board, when operating solely in Scotland, is not unexpectedly burdened with liabilities. Schedules 1 to 3 list the division of property between the recipients.

The British Waterways Board, operating solely in Scotland, will receive all of the property, rights and liabilities relating to the activities of the British Waterways Board in Scotland as well as a portion of the British Waterways Board’s cross-border contracts. The division of assets between the Canal & River Trust and the British Waterways Board, when operating solely in Scotland, was agreed by the UK Government and the Scottish Government through a disaggregation process. The draft transfer scheme was also made available to the Scottish Parliament during its consideration of the transfer order. The Scottish Parliament gave its consent to the draft transfer order on 9 May 2012.

The transfer scheme will divide the commercial property assets between the Canal & River Trust (in England and Wales) and the British Waterways Board, operating solely in Scotland, and will provide for their respective transfer.

In England and Wales, the transfer scheme will transfer the heritage infrastructure to the Canal & River Trust to be held as permanent endowment in a specially created trust, the Waterways Infrastructure Trust. We intend to settle the Waterways Infrastructure Trust on the Canal & River Trust as sole trustee. I am also placing in the Library a copy of the draft trust settlement, which will be executed in due course as part of the overall transfer process.

The Canal & River Trust will be charged with safeguarding the infrastructure of the waterways on behalf of the nation. The canals, towpaths, locks and other parts of the waterways are to be looked after for the benefit of future generations and the Waterways Infrastructure Trust will ensure this happens.

The Waterways Infrastructure Trust ensures that all of infrastructure property (as defined in the trust) is held as a permanent functional endowment. This means that the Canal & River Trust will not be able to sell any part of the infrastructure property without gaining the Secretary of State’s and in some cases the Charity Commission’s prior consent. Before granting such consent, the Secretary of State will hold a public consultation.

The trust settlement also requires the Canal & River Trust to grant free pedestrian access to the towpath (except in certain very tightly defined circumstances and again with the prior consent of the Secretary of State, following public consultation).

Under the transfer scheme, certain assets will be moved directly to the Canal & River Trading Community Interest Company, a wholly owned subsidiary of the Canal & River Trust. The Community Interest Company will receive the property, rights and liabilities for its trading activities which, under charity law, have to be kept in a separate vehicle from the charity itself.

Fish Discards

Lord Benyon Excerpts

Thursday 14th June 2012 Commons Chamber

[Amber Rudd (Hastings and Rye) (Con)]

(Urgent Question): To ask the Secretary of State if she will make a statement about the decision on fish discards arrived at this week in the European Council meeting of Fisheries Ministers.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon)]

I am very grateful to my hon. Friend for asking this question, as it gives me the opportunity to run through some of what we achieved in the small hours of the morning in Luxembourg. On 12-13 June, I represented the UK at the Agriculture and Fisheries Council in Luxembourg to discuss the reform of the common fisheries policy. This was a critical negotiation where I was asked to give my agreement on key elements of this once-in-a-decade opportunity to reform the broken CFP, through agreement of a “General Approach” text. My aim has all along been to combine radical political ambition with a strong focus on the practical means to ensure early delivery. I am pleased to report to the House that we secured agreement to key planks of the reform we are seeking. This includes some key demands that I know the House has sought previously, and that remain hugely important to the British public.

We successfully made the case for measures to progressively eliminate discards, with deadlines that kick in quickly after the conclusion of the reform. The text provides for a landing obligation in pelagic fisheries from 2014, and a staged implementation in our other fisheries between 2015 and 2018. Although not all member states shared our ambition for urgent action, a commitment to implement a landing obligation, with a provisional timetable, is a major step in the right direction.

We also secured the inclusion of provisions setting out a genuine regionalised process to replace the centralised one-size-fits-all approach. The UK has led work with other member states over the last year to find solutions to that. The provisions allow us to work together regionally—for example with other North sea member states, to agree the measures appropriate to our fisheries. That is a crucial start in moving decision making closer to fisheries.

As for my other top priority, we secured a responsible approach to setting fishing levels. Overfishing has been a central failing of the CFP, and the UK was adamant that the text should include a clear legal commitment, and deadlines for that, to achieve maximum sustainable yield in line with our international commitments. Through the discussions in Council, the UK has played a leading role in developing solutions and building alliances with other member states to shape the text we agreed in the early hours of yesterday.

This is not the end of the process. The Council of Ministers has now given a clear steer but the dossier will be co-decided with the European Parliament, so we will continue to work with others to improve the legal provisions and we will also guard against any weakening of the approach. This is a major step towards real reform on a long and difficult road and I do not expect these negotiations to conclude until well into 2013.

[Amber Rudd]

I thank the Minister for that answer. This achievement on a discard ban is a welcome step forward. Fish discards are recognised universally as obscene and unacceptable and I want to press the Minister, if possible, on certain elements of the subject. What are his views on slippage in the timetable, on the plans for implementation and on the consequences of the agreement for our fishing communities?

What confidence does the Minister have in the timetable? It has already slipped from the original proposals, so will 2018 not be considered by some as the marine equivalent of the long grass? The industry is willing to move towards the ban, but what support will it get for the change in gears and working methods that will be needed to meet the requirements? Everyone can and will welcome the commitment, but what structure will be put in place to help delivery of the outcome while working within a quota system?

As the Minister will know, the problem of discards cannot be wished away without the means being provided. What are those means to be? Maximum sustainable yield is at least as important as the discards announcement and there is universal recognition that stock levels need to improve following years of overfishing. The statement says that maximum sustainable yield should be achieved “where possible” by 2015; what confidence does the Minister have in the phrase “where possible”? As the level of available scientific data is ever increasing, does the Minister agree that that adds weight to the target and, one would hope, momentum towards achieving it by 2015?

I particularly welcome the regionalised approach set out in the announcement. The previous one-size-fits-all approach of the common fisheries policy has failed. Mesh sizes in Hastings were decided in Brussels, which was absolutely absurd. Will the Minister tell us how he expects those welcome changes to impact on the everyday ability of the small fishing fleets up and down the country to carry on fishing? I know that he is acutely aware of the need for a fairer allocation of quota to support the smaller fishing communities. Can he tell us whether the proposed regionalisation addressed by the Fisheries Council will lead to a brighter future for the fishermen of Britain?

[Richard Benyon]

My hon. Friend is right to raise the question of the timings of any discard or land-all obligation. There is no doubt that the United Kingdom’s ambitions were greater than some of the dates in the proposal. They are only proposed dates, but I can assure her that they are considerably better than some of the dates being discussed in the wee small hours, which could definitely, and quite rightly, be construed as slippage or kicking the issue into the long grass.

Let us look closely at the dates. Unfortunately, the reform will not be in place until the end of 2013, but from 1 January 2014 there will be implementation of a discard ban on herring, mackerel and other pelagic stocks. The year 2015 will see the emergence of white fish land-all obligations, so we will be well ahead with many stocks in many fisheries ahead of the 2016 date, which was seen by many as the measure. However, some will not come in until 2018, as my hon. Friend says. Many of the fishermen in her constituency and elsewhere dislike the top-down management of fisheries for a variety of reasons, but often because of the controls that are imposed, such as catch composition measures and effort controls. A lot of those are incompatible with discards, so we have secured in the text a commitment to remove those where possible. I look forward to working through the detail of that.

On maximum sustainable yield, my hon. Friend is absolutely right. There is the international obligation to fish to MSY by 2015 where possible. The difference now is that we are proposing that what was a political statement should be a legal requirement. That is a major step forward. On the regionalised approach, it has to be said that when we were starting this reform process, the UK was a lone voice in calling for an end to the top-down management of fisheries. We now have allies and have got that into the text, which is a major achievement. Let us look at what this means for the small, inshore fleets. Like all fishermen, what they want most of all are more fish to catch. Fishing to MSY will mean that fish stocks will recover faster and better, so there will be more fish in the sea for such fleets to exploit. They will also see an end to the system that my hon. Friend described in which eliminator panels sit in a particular net and mesh sizes are decided perhaps hundreds or thousands of miles away from the seas in which those fishermen fish. This is a major step forward. There is much more work to be done and I assure her that it will not be through any lack of effort if we do not get precisely what we want in the text.

[Mr Tom Harris (Glasgow South) (Lab)]

May I begin by saying how disappointed I am that this important issue is being dealt with through an urgent question rather than a formal statement by the Government?

There are elements of this agreement that will be welcomed on this side of the House and throughout the country, chief among them being the agreement in principle on a ban on the shameful practice of discards. However, any deadlines that were discussed were vague and did not feature explicitly in the final agreement. Why was this? Can the Minister tell the House if Tuesday’s meeting ended with a comprehensive vote including all participating members? A commitment without a deadline is no commitment at all. Without a legally enforceable deadline, what assurances can the Government give that the practice of discards will indeed end in the time scale he envisages? The Minister told The Guardian on Monday that as he entered negotiations in Luxembourg, the Government had

“still not fully worked out its position”

regarding a deadline. That is an extraordinary approach to negotiations. Does the Minister really believe that to achieve the best outcome from negotiations we should announce in advance that we have no position—that we have not made mind up our mind about what we want?

On the regionalisation of fisheries policy, will the Minister explain what practical differences will be made to the common fisheries policy that will represent an improvement on the previous one? The big disappointment is the potentially devastating delay until 2020 of a commitment to reach sustainable levels of fishing stock, which will mean another eight years of guaranteed overfishing. Tragically, once again politics has trumped science. Does the Minister agree that a failure to rebuild fish stocks more quickly will damage the UK fishing industry, particularly inshore fleets at the low-impact, sustainable end of the industry?

Finally, what measures will the Government put in place to make sure that smaller inshore fishermen and their communities receive a fairer distribution of quotas? The House will give the Minister one cheer for his efforts this week, but the future of our fishing industry and the recovery of our fish stocks are too important to sacrifice to yet another Euro-fudge.

[Richard Benyon]

Let me start by formally welcoming the hon. Gentleman to his position. I look forward to working with him in the coming months on these important issues. He asked about the dates in terms of a discard ban. I should state quite clearly that when I was asked by The Guardian on Monday morning whether I would share the dates I was taking to the negotiations, I had very clear dates in my head, but we have a protocol—a courtesy—that we agree the UK line with all devolved Governments. I was very grateful to have the support of all the devolved Governments in Luxembourg. We had a very good spirit in the UK delegation room—we work well together. We agreed that UK line very clearly and we stuck to it.

The hon. Gentleman asked whether there was a vote in the plenary meeting of the Council of Ministers. At the end, the Danish presidency, which has been superb throughout—it is a great ally of the British programme, and has led very well—asked people to register any opposition to the proposal. One or two small countries did so, and one or two slightly large countries did so too. We should be under no illusion: there are people who do not want the policy to be reformed, and do not support the United Kingdom’s ambitions on discards, regionalisation and moving to sustainable fisheries. It is up to our colleagues from all parties in the European Parliament to make sure that a robust position is maintained and that the Council of Ministers continues to push on the deadlines that we have asked for.

The hon. Gentleman asked what the measure means for a regionalised approach. I am really pleased that the United Kingdom position has been adopted, and we pushed right through to the end to make sure that if a group of countries fishing in a sea basin decides on the details of measures that are currently decided in the Commission but which will in future be decided in those regionalised groups, the Commission can then implement that. In the original text, there was a clear indication that other measures could be imposed by the Commission in that process. We want to make sure that where countries agree, we have a truly regionalised position—a truly bottom-up system of managing our fisheries—and I think that will be welcomed.

The hon. Gentleman is wrong about our dates on maximum sustainable yield. We want to stick to our Johannesburg commitment, which was a political commitment, and make it a legal commitment so that we fish to MSY by 2015 where possible. He accepts that the science is not always clear, but we want to hold ourselves to account as much as possible. He asks about a fairer distribution among different sectors of the industry. He knows—if he does not, he should—that I have been working extremely hard on this. I want to make sure that we keep all those small ports and creeks that support the local fishing industry in business. There is a social dimension to the management of the industry. We have to maintain the diversity of the fleet, which is not easy, but it is a clear priority for the Government. I hope that he, like his predecessors, will continue to support that.

--- Later in debate ---

[Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend on what he has delivered and the progress that was made, particularly on regionalisation, which is music to the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee’s ears. Will he update the House on the question of a register for UK fishermen so that we can tackle the problem of slipper skippers, which will also help with discards? Will he confirm that it will be fish caught against quota on which we will proceed, not just fish landed, as that is one of the main issues with discards? Will he confirm that there will be support for fishermen to invest in the selective gear that has been successful in Denmark and Sweden?

[Richard Benyon]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for her support. It is a priority quickly to overcome the absurd position that we do not know who holds quota in this country. We want to work with devolved Governments to make sure that we have that register as quickly possible to ensure that we know and perhaps to slay some of the urban myths that football clubs and celebrities own quota. I have never managed to find out the facts about this.

The important point on discards is that we know how to make this work. We begin with a really good experience of working with the fishing industry. Catch quota schemes will result in 0.2% of discards of cod for vessels in those schemes. We want to incentivise fishermen not to catch fish that they would otherwise discard. We want to make sure, too, that where there is a land-all obligation there are supply chains that ensure that those fish are eaten or go into other systems. We should not just transfer a problem out at sea to landfill. The most important thing is that we have time and a clear direction to ensure that we can use all the work that we have done with the industry to make this effective and to stop the problem in a practical sense.

[Mr Frank Doran (Aberdeen North) (Lab)]

It is important to welcome the progress that has been made in the Fisheries Council and congratulate the Minister on the effort he has put in, but does he agree that the discards situation is complex, particularly in the mixed and white fisheries in the North sea—the situation is much easier to resolve in pelagic fisheries—and that we will not resolve the problem through European rules? We need practical regional measures, as has been shown in the Scottish prawn fisheries, where these practical approaches have managed to reduce discards by over 70%.

[Richard Benyon]

I entirely agree that there are fantastic practices in British waters that we want to see as part of the scheme and that it is not just a question of having a big-bang end to the practice. We want to use existing evidence and to work with the industry. I know that we can achieve that and look forward to working with the hon. Gentleman’s all-party parliamentary group on that.

[Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)]

As a former Fisheries Minister, I congratulate my hon. Friend on what he has achieved. People have been trying for decades to get the sorts of reforms he has achieved, and had it not been for his leadership and that of the UK Government we would not have got where we are. The issue of discards is of considerable interest to large numbers of my constituents, many of whom have written to me about it. It is quite a complex matter, so will my hon. Friend consider sending a “Dear colleague” letter about discards to all Members of the House so that we can forward it to our constituents?

[Richard Benyon]

I am very keen to involve all Members of the House. My hon. Friend, like me, represents a constituency that is almost as far from the sea as it is possible to be, but we get letters from constituents who are massively concerned about the marine environment. I want to ensure that we keep up the political momentum on this and so want to work with Members on both sides of the House to ensure that we keep up the pressure and are effective through all the institutions that are involved so that ultimately we get the result we need.

[Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab)]

The Minister will recall that I have called a number of times for the abolition of the common fisheries policy and the restoration of historic fishing waters to member states. I still believe that that is the only final solution that will work, but in the short term we have inched forward. Will he explain how the system will be policed, whether there will be penalties, precisely what will happen to the excess catches and whether Britain will be monitoring, and indeed policing, rogue vessels from overseas that are fishing in British waters?

[Richard Benyon]

Britain has been policing illegal fishing, whether by UK or foreign vessels, and will continue to do so. I am pleased that we recently instigated a very heavy fine on an overseas vessel fishing in our waters. I can assure the hon. Gentleman that I want to ensure that fisheries are managed as close to member states as possible. There are some good words in the text that allow member states to take action when it is right for them to do so. Subsidiarity is supposed to underpin a lot of European legislation, and I ask him to look at the provisions we secured on regionalisation. Whether or not we had a CFP, we would still have to work with other countries because we are talking about an ecosystem, fish that swim in our waters and those of other countries, and the historical fishing rights that go way back beyond the European Union, so I think we have a good message and that it is something he can be pleased with.

[Andrew George (St Ives) (LD)]

I, too, congratulate my hon. Friend on the progress he has helped to secure in the negotiations. Does he agree that if the regional dimension of the common fisheries policy is to succeed it is critical that fishermen are engaged as key stakeholders in the management of those regions?

[Richard Benyon]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend, who is absolutely right. For too long fishermen have felt right at the bottom of the decision-making process, under layer upon layer of control. I hope that we can have a system that is simpler and closer to them. In December I sat up late into the night discussing with Commission officials where an eliminator panel should sit in a net that was to be used off the Shetlands. That is an absurd system. I hope that a more regionalised approach will mean that decisions are taken by fishermen and closer to where they fish.

[Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)]

I, too, welcome my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow South (Mr Harris) back to his rightful place on the Front Bench. The Minister said that he wanted particular dates for the implementation of the policy against these immoral discards. Did he achieve the dates he had in mind in the negotiations?

[Richard Benyon]

No, but I failed to achieve them only by about a year. We can argue and quibble, but the important thing is that we agreed a general approach. Had we not done so, we would have becalmed the whole reform of this broken policy, possibly for years, and sent a message to the European Parliament that the Council does not really think it is important, and those who believe the current system works would have won, which would have been a disaster.

[Sheryll Murray (South East Cornwall) (Con)]

As someone who sat up into the early hours of the morning listening to the negotiations, I really congratulate the Minister. Can he confirm that any discard ban will not prevent fishermen from Looe, Polperro and the Rame peninsula in my constituency from discarding seasonally prevalent fish, such as the red gurnard, that are not assessed as under pressure by the Marine Conservation Society?

[Richard Benyon]

I thank my hon. Friend, who is very knowledgeable about these issues. I do not know the details stock by stock, but what we want is an end to discards. There were proposals made in the negotiation process that, through de minimis levels that we considered much too high, would in effect have meant that there was not a discard ban. We must be clear about where we want to go, but we want to ensure that we work with fishermen in her constituency and elsewhere to achieve that.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I thank the Minister for his statement. With Diane Dodds, a colleague and Member of the European Parliament, I have been working on this issue for some time and therefore give it a cautious welcome. Does he accept that, in the spirit of the agreement, further effort, known as reductions, in the context of the cod recovery plan for the Irish sea, which affects Northern Ireland fishermen, will not be imposed in future?

[Richard Benyon]

One of the reforms we want as part of the process is a greater movement to multi-annual plans, which I like because they actually take power away from politicians. The horse trading that goes on in December is less possible when we have a good multi-annual plan. What the hon. Gentleman is talking about is a bad multi-annual plan, one that was not thought through properly, does not work and in many cases achieves the reverse of what was intended. I will work with him, Diane Dodds and anyone else to ensure that we get the right kind of multi-annual plans system within the reforms.

[Neil Parish (Tiverton and Honiton) (Con)]

I, too, congratulate the Minister, who has achieved a great deal on discards in his time in office. I think that the local management of fisheries and fishermen owning up to the way fish stocks are managed are essential. We have to ensure that cod discards, which are still going on in mixed fisheries off the south-west, are stopped as soon as possible.

[Richard Benyon]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend, who has been a hearty proponent of an end to the top-down management of fisheries and an enemy of discards both here and in the European Parliament, and I will continue to work on that. We should be very grateful to organisations such as Fish Fight for the part they played in exciting popular culture in support of what we are doing, but it is also worth paying tribute to the small groups of scientists, officials from DEFRA and other organisations that have been working to end discards and reform this policy for a long time.

[Stephen Mosley (City of Chester) (Con)]

I give three cheers for this agreement, which represents a huge step in the right direction. However, given that some European countries, most notably France, remain opposed to some of its key elements, will the Minister ensure that he keeps up the pressure so that there is no slippage in the proposals?

[Richard Benyon]

I was pleased to welcome the new French Minister to the negotiations and very glad that I did not have to do what he did: ring his Prime Minister at 4.30 in the morning to get his authority to support the proposals. I can assure my hon. Friend that we work with every country that we feel can move this forward. It is really important that we do not just sit back because we have a general approach agreed; there is a lot more work to be done. I am grateful for my hon. Friend’s support.

[Andrea Leadsom (South Northamptonshire) (Con)]

How miserable of the Opposition to refuse to applaud the remarkable progress made by my hon. Friend in an area of EU policy that has been calling out for reform for literally decades. Will he please tell us what the process is now for this to receive approval from the European Parliament and what his concerns about that might be?

[Richard Benyon]

We now enter a process of Kafkaesque complexity. The reforms will go to the European Parliament’s Fisheries Committee in October, and we will then consider what it thinks of them. They will then go to the plenary session of the European Parliament. They will then be examined again by the institutions early next year through a trialogue process. We will then come forward with a reform, hopefully about this time next year, for implementation in January, which is in 18 months’ time.

[Mr Speaker]

I thank the Minister and colleagues.

Dangerous Dogs

Lord Benyon Excerpts

Wednesday 23rd May 2012 Westminster Hall

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon)]

It is a great pleasure to respond to this excellent debate and there have been some good contributions. I pay tribute to the hon. Member for Islwyn (Chris Evans) for raising this important issue with such commitment, and for continuing an ongoing dialogue on the issue. I entirely recognise the points that he raises. I pay tribute to the many organisations to which he referred: Guide Dogs for the Blind, the Communication Workers Union, the Dogs Trust and, of course, Battersea dogs home, which he recently visited.

There were other very powerful contributions. My hon. Friend the Member for Banbury (Tony Baldry) pointed out the limitations of what many people—some of our constituents and some Members of this House—see as a panacea for solving this problem. Microchipping is only a partial solution. As was said in a number of interventions, it does not deal with the fact that unfortunately there will always be some people who fail to comply. The law can go only so far in catching them.

The hon. Member for Liverpool, Wavertree (Luciana Berger), who informed hon. Members that she had to leave the debate to go to a meeting, which of course we understand, asked some specific questions that were also asked by the hon. Member for Glasgow South (Mr Harris). Incidentally, I should have started by congratulating him on his position and saying that I look forward to working with him. This issue is not my primary responsibility—it is, of course, Lord Taylor of Holbeach’s responsibility—but I am happy to work with the hon. Gentleman on it and many others. The hon. Lady asked when the measures would be brought in, as did the hon. Gentleman. The introduction of microchipping would involve secondary legislation—an amendment to the Animal Welfare Act 2006. The elements of the measures that have been announced that would see current controls extending to private property and that relate to the requirements for kennelling and a number of other areas would involve primary legislation. I have no date for when those measures could be brought in, but we consider them urgent and hope that they can be brought in as quickly as possible.

The hon. Lady also raised the question of police resources. I can only say that these are local priority issues and will undoubtedly feature in the work of the new police and crime commissioners. When my neighbouring MP was Boris Johnson, we conducted a campaign with Thames Valley police on dog theft. We got that horrible crime treated as much more of a priority by the police force. It allocated resources and has done good work. A similar approach is being taken by other police forces. I know that hon. Members are still working hard with certain police forces to try to move this issue up the scale of their priorities. There will continue to be a debate and it will happen locally.

My hon. Friend the Member for Ealing Central and Acton (Angie Bray) is a long-standing campaigner on this issue, and I pay great tribute to her. She is pleased about what is being done, but quite rightly there is an edge to what she says. She wants to push the Government, and I will ensure that we continue to work with her.

There was an excellent contribution from the hon. Member for Hackney South and Shoreditch (Meg Hillier). One very telling point that she made was about the irresponsible dog owners affecting responsible dog owners. That is entirely right. There are law-abiding people who are dog lovers or who do not have anything to do with dogs but whose lives are made hell by the irresponsible dog owners. Of course, that must remain a priority for us.

I will try to deal with as many points as I can in the few minutes that I have left. I certainly commit to writing to hon. Members if I fail to answer any of the questions put to me. Let us be clear: the announcement of 23 April set out a number of proposals. One is to extend to all places the criminal offence of allowing a dog to be dangerously out of control. That deals with the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for South Dorset (Richard Drax) and a number of others about the terrible attacks that happen in the home and elsewhere that currently are not covered by legislation. The other proposals are: to remove the mandatory requirement that suspected prohibited-type dogs must be seized by the police for at least the duration of the court case; to require all puppies to be microchipped; and to increase the fee to have a dog added to the index of exempted dogs. The proposals are subject to consultation, and we welcome people’s views before the consultation period ends on 15 June. We want to take action as quickly as possible after that.

In addition to the proposals that I have set out, we are taking forward other work that we consider will help to tackle the irresponsible ownership of dogs. A number of initiatives are currently undertaken at local level. Some have been referred to in the debate. Those initiatives are designed to promote more responsible ownership of dogs. The Government welcome that. Hon. Members on both sides of the House have been giving great leadership to some of those local initiatives. We want to foster more of those projects and we feel that those who may be interested in setting up projects need to know what works well and in what circumstances. To enable that to happen, DEFRA is funding innovative projects in London and in dog hot spots outside London to provide learning that can be applied more widely.

In the past, one criticism has been a perception that enforcement of the law can vary between police forces, with some forces performing better than others. To redress that, we have already provided funding towards the training of more dog legislation officers—police officers specially trained in the law on dangerous dogs. That can make an enormous difference to a police force that is trying to tackle a problem but does not feel that it has the resources to deal with it. Those additional specialists will help police forces across the country to deal with dangerous dog incidents.

We also provide guidance to the courts, the police and the public on dangerous dogs. We are examining whether that guidance needs to be updated and have started to work with partners to see what changes need to be made.

On 15 May, the Sentencing Council published a new guideline for judges and magistrates on sentencing for dangerous dog offences. For example, the top of the sentencing range for the offence of allowing a dog to be dangerously out of control and injure someone has been increased from six months to 18 months. The Sentencing Council states:

“The new guideline will mean more offenders will face jail sentences, more will get community orders and fewer will receive discharges.”

The new guideline will come into effect on 20 August 2012.

As has been said, the Home Office has published a White Paper—it did so yesterday—containing proposals to simplify the antisocial behaviour toolkit. We have worked closely with the Home Office to ensure that the new antisocial behaviour measures cover irresponsibility with dogs. That includes people who deliberately use their dogs to intimidate other people and those who allow their dogs to stray and cause a nuisance—precisely the point made by the hon. Member for Hackney South and Shoreditch. The Home Office is determined that those types of problem will be dealt with effectively in its proposed changes to the antisocial behaviour toolkit. The Home Office fully recognises the need to ensure that action can be taken to tackle antisocial behaviour problems proactively before they degenerate into more serious incidents, when action may have to be taken under existing dangerous dogs legislation. Many hon. Members have referred to the fact that certain dogs are used as a cover for other forms of criminality. That is of course a very big driver for the police and other law enforcement agencies.

I realise that a number of people wanted to see proposals such as the introduction of dog control notices. I can see why dog control notices may be viewed as a positive and preventive measure. However, I hope that I can reassure everyone that anything that could be achieved through such notices could be achieved through the new antisocial behaviour measures proposed by the Home Office. I see no reason to introduce dog-specific notices. They would not add value to what is already out there.

I hope that hon. Members will take the time to read the White Paper. It sets out a range of ways in which practitioners could use the new powers to deal with irresponsible dog owners, from using informal measures to deal with problems early, to taking proactive action through a community protection notice to tell an irresponsible owner exactly what he needs to do or else, and using the crime prevention injunction or criminal behaviour order to deal with more serious cases.

I understand that there is considerable support for microchipping to be applied to all dogs. Our consultation on microchipping includes four options, but our preferred option is to microchip puppies as opposed to all dogs. The Government consider that there should be a balance between linking dogs back to breeders and not imposing a burden on all existing dog owners. Many points were raised about the data and where they are held. There will be a real onus on the vendor of a dog to ensure that the data are changed. There will also be an onus on the purchaser. No one wants liability to remain with them. It is like selling a car.

The Government remain absolutely committed to resolving this problem as best they can. Let us face facts. There will still be dog attacks. Whatever legislation the House introduces, there will still be appalling incidents, but we must do everything that we can to provide the necessary protection to innocent people, who are currently too often the victims of appalling crimes and attacks by dogs that are not managed responsibly by their owners.

Incandescent Light Bulbs

Lord Benyon Excerpts

Tuesday 22nd May 2012 Westminster Hall

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Edinburgh East (Sheila Gilmore) on securing the debate and on representing her constituents—indeed, all our constituents—who are suffering in the way that she describes. There can be an extensive discussion about the extent to which the problem exists, but I think that we all recognise that it is a problem and that she was right to bring it to the House today.

It is important to place on the record the context in which the current changes are being made. Then I shall talk about the health issues that the hon. Lady raised so forcefully. The Government recognise, as I think the hon. Lady does and as the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent North (Joan Walley) certainly does in her role as Chair of the Environmental Audit Committee, that climate change is one of the gravest challenges that we face and that urgent action is required to tackle it. Failure to transform how we produce and consume in the UK will expose the economy to many risks—from the damage wreaked by the effects of climate change to constraints on future growth from unsustainable depletion of our natural capital. The Government have set out clearly how they want to be the “greenest Government ever” and that that must be based on action, not words. Ensuring the sustainability of products is one way in which we can act now.

The amount of energy consumed by household electrical goods is staggering. Products targeted by the European eco-design and energy labelling directives account for an astonishing 50% of the European Union’s energy consumption. We need to promote the most efficient products to consumers, which in turn rewards the businesses developing and selling them. Energy labels are an effective way of doing that. The EU’s A to G energy labels enable consumers to choose efficient appliances. Labelling also enables manufacturers to compete against one another on the environmental performance of their products.

There are, none the less, occasions on which policies such as labelling and consumer awareness fail to produce the necessary switch to more sustainable products. In those cases, choice editing by removing the least efficient products from the market remains one of the most cost-effective ways of reducing energy consumption, while at the same time benefiting consumers and businesses by reducing their energy bills. As a member of the European single market, the UK cannot by itself introduce mandatory minimum energy performance standards for appliances because it would inhibit free trade. The EU eco-design for energy related products framework directive is a single market directive under article 95 of the EU treaty and provides the legal framework within which implementing measures set standards for the environmental performance of products or product groups. Those measures can take the form of regulations or voluntary initiatives.

To date, 12 regulations have been agreed under the eco-design directive and two voluntary initiatives are close to agreement. The regulations are expected to save the UK almost 7 million tonnes of CO₂ a year by 2020. They are expected to generate just over £850 million a year in net benefits for British consumers and businesses through reduced energy bills. I recognise that the hon. Member for Edinburgh East is keen for me to move on to the health issues, but it is important to put these points on record. Lighting is a major contributor to global energy consumption. The International Energy Agency estimates that electricity consumption for lighting represents almost 19% of global electricity use and is responsible for approximately 8% of world greenhouse gas emissions.

The regulation of 2009 became directly applicable in all EU member states after agreement by the European Parliament and Council in spring of that year. It sets minimum standards for non-directional household lamps—in other words, bulbs that provide a spread of light, such as those under which we are sitting, as opposed to, say, spot lamps. Incandescent light bulbs waste 95% of their energy as heat. They are therefore too inefficient to meet the standards, so are being in effect phased out in the EU. Other countries phasing out or planning to phase out incandescent light bulbs include Australia, Brazil, China, Japan, Russia, South Korea and the United States. The regulation is predicted to save 39 TWh across the EU annually by 2020. Within the UK, it will mean net savings each year of 0.65 MtCO₂e and 0.3 TWh by 2020. The average annual net benefit to the UK between 2010 and 2020 is predicted to be £108 million.

CFLs use 20% to 25% of the energy an incandescent light bulb uses. Halogen light bulbs offer anything between 20% to 45% energy savings on incandescent bulbs. The Government are working to encourage the development and use of ultra-efficient lighting, which could produce even greater savings. For example, DEFRA and the Technology Strategy Board ran a successful £1.2 million challenge to develop LED lighting to replace conventional incandescent lamps. The initiative successfully supported two small and medium-sized enterprises—Juice Technology and Zeta Controls—to prototype stage. That is an excellent example of how minimum standards are driving innovation and transforming the market.

Problems, such as slow warm-up times and poor quality light, were reported with some early CFLs. However, the industry has responded well to the challenge to produce new quality products. Regulation 244/2009 assisted by putting in place minimum standards for the performance of CFLs, which protects consumers from substandard products and the manufacturers of quality products from unfair competition. The hon. Lady mentioned flickering, which did cause problems in older light bulbs, and it was believed that that contributed to considerable difficulties for migraine sufferers, but it has been improved, although not to the satisfaction of all. I will come on to those issues now, but both the performance and the choice of CFLs has improved a great deal.

Although energy efficient lighting produces significant environmental and financial benefits, we need to ensure that lighting solutions remain available for people with light-sensitive health conditions. CFLs can generate higher levels of UV and blue light than incandescent lamps. Those levels are much lower than a typical summer’s day, but present a potentially greater risk to a number of people with light-sensitive skin disorders. The European Commission’s scientific committee on emerging and newly identified health risks—I, like the hon. Lady, will call it SCENIHR—estimates that up to 30,000 people in the UK are potentially at risk, but I accept that the figure is disputed and could be higher.

DEFRA and the Department of Health have been closely engaged with patients’ support groups and charities, the lighting industry and the Health Protection Agency. In fact, as the lead DEFRA Minister, Lord Taylor of Holbeach, whom the hon. Lady met, will shortly meet one such group—Spectrum, to which she referred—and I hope that the meeting will include the constituent she mentioned. The Department of Health and Health Protection Agency have fed evidence into SCENIHR’s opinion on the health effects of artificial lighting, published in 2008, and its updated opinion, published in March this year. SCENIHR concluded that the use of double-envelope CFLs, which look like a traditional light lamp, can mitigate the risk of aggravating the symptoms of light-sensitive individuals. The hon. Lady has reported that there is some scepticism on that, and we have more work to do.

Anecdotal evidence suggests that halogens might be an adequate alternative in some cases. Most LEDs for general lighting emit little or no UV radiation. They therefore potentially offer an even better alternative. Nevertheless, the updated opinion recommended further research on the relationship between artificial lighting and various health conditions.

[Sheila Gilmore]

rose—

[Richard Benyon]

I will give way very quickly, but I am coming to the key point.

[Sheila Gilmore]

Will the Minister clarify whether, while waiting for all the research to come to fruition, he is prepared to support an exemption that would enable people to get the lamps?

[Richard Benyon]

We are lobbying the Commission to bring the research forward before 2014. That is a key point that we want to get across. I will discuss the matter with my colleague, Lord Taylor, and he in turn will talk to Health Ministers to see if there is any wriggle room that will allow some form of exemption, such as the one that the hon. Lady described. I liked her suggestion about the possibility of using pharmacies. We are open-minded. What we do must be legal and recognise that there is a problem that we want to resolve.

The regulation includes a requirement for it to be reviewed before 2014, but we think that that should be done sooner. We will work with our European partners to ensure that the review takes full account of the best available scientific evidence on the health effects of artificial light. We are therefore pressing the Commission to ensure that the research is completed much earlier in order to feed into the review.

Energy efficient lighting, with other energy efficient products, can produce significant energy savings.

[Joan Walley]

I am listening hard to the Minister. Can he give my hon. Friend an indication of the time scale? Will he report back to her on the discussions that he intends to have with Lord Taylor about the health issues and what he referred to as the “wriggle room” within what is legal?

[Richard Benyon]

I will talk to Lord Taylor, as I agreed, subsequent to the debate. If the hon. Lady will allow me to say so, it will be for him to contact her and the hon. Member for Edinburgh East to see how we can take things forward. I recognise the genuine concerns that have been brought to the attention of the House through the early-day motion and today’s debate. I assure the hon. Member for Edinburgh East that the Government take these matters seriously and we will seek to resolve the concerns of her constituent and our constituents who are affected.

Littering and Fly-tipping

Lord Benyon Excerpts

Tuesday 22nd May 2012 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for South West Bedfordshire (Andrew Selous) on bringing this matter to the House and on continuing his long-running and cogent campaign. I share his phobia of litter and fly-tipping. Without wanting to sound sanctimonious, I will tell the House that during the election campaign, so concerned were my supporters about litter that we took a day off campaigning to pick up litter in the otherwise fairly tidy town of Newbury. The issue goes to the heart of what we feel about our communities, our sense of place and this country.

My hon. Friend referred to his constituent, Mrs Prosser. I am sure that we can all think of Mrs Prossers in our constituencies who, unthanked and unrewarded, do amazing work, because they have pride in, and mind about, their community. As a society, we have to find a better way of rewarding and thanking people such as Mrs Prosser for their wonderful work.

[Stephen Phillips (Sleaford and North Hykeham) (Con)]

The simple fact is that Mrs Prosser and others should not have to undertake such activities, but at least while they do have to I hope that my hon. Friend will join me in congratulating her and all those in my constituency who clear litter from the verges on the valuable work they do.

[Richard Benyon]

I entirely agree with my hon. and learned Friend and thank the volunteers in his constituency who do that, and I resent, in almost equal measure, the people with such little regard for our communities and countryside that they throw the litter in the first place, thereby requiring those volunteers to perform the selfless act that he describes.

Let me set out to the House the Government’s plans for good-quality local environments and the actions that we are taking to tackle littering and fly-tipping. We know from repeated public surveys that the appearance of local neighbourhoods matters greatly to people, ranking alongside or above concerns such as global climate change or rising fuel prices. Poor quality environments can destroy neighbourhood pride and create a climate of fear and neglect. These are therefore important issues, and it is right that we take a close interest in addressing them. Local authorities are on the front line of dealing with littering and fly-tipping. They have the duty to clean up public land and the powers to take enforcement action to fit local circumstances. Although most fly-tipping on public land is handled by local authorities, the Environment Agency also has a role in investigating large fly-tipping incidents, in particular those involving hazardous waste or organised crime. As my hon. Friend the Member for South West Bedfordshire said, on private land the responsibility for dealing with fly-tipping rests with the landowners—often at great cost to them and their businesses—although many local authorities offer advice, guidance and, in some cases, help.

[Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD)]

I wonder whether the Minister could address the problem of different local authorities having different responsibilities. In my area, Somerset county council has shut a number of local recycling centres, leaving the district councils as the level responsible for dealing with fly-tipping. That transfers the cost from the county council’s budget, but means that district councils have to deal with an increasing problem. Indeed, they are left having to charge, through council tax, which seems most unfair.

[Richard Benyon]

I understand that all local authorities, like the Government, face difficulties and have to set priorities. If we are to be a truly localist Government, we have to leave decisions about priorities to be taken locally. In areas with unitary councils there is less misunderstanding on the part of the public about who is responsible. When I was a district councillor, people were always blaming the county council for things that were my responsibility, and vice versa. I know that this is a difficulty in areas with two-tier local authorities, but I understand the point my hon. Friend makes.

The charity Keep Britain Tidy carries out a survey for DEFRA each year, and this year the 10th report was produced. It provides an opportunity to look across the changes in the last decade and highlights the fact that litter levels are not much better than when the survey was first carried out, in 2001, with 15% of areas deemed “unsatisfactory” for litter. Yet since that time, the costs to local authorities of sweeping the streets, including dealing with litter, has risen by hundreds of millions of pounds, as my hon. Friend the Member for South West Bedfordshire said, to little short of £900 million.

DEFRA and the Environment Agency host the collection data on fly-tipping, through the Flycapture reporting system, which helps to provide evidence of the nature and scale of fly-tipping and allows decisions to be made locally and nationally on the best interventions to tackle the problem. Fly-tipping continues to have too great a detrimental impact on the local environment. In 2010-11, there were 820,000 fly-tipping incidents in England. Although that is a reduction compared with the previous year, this is in part due to changes in reporting practices by some authorities. The true figure is likely to be considerably more, as it is recognised that many incidents, particularly those on private land, go unreported. We also know that a lot of fly-tipping involves domestic waste, which can ordinarily be collected by local authorities or taken, as has been said, to civic amenity sites.

So what can be done to make real inroads into the persistent levels of litter? The Government’s commitment in this regard is clearly set out in the coalition’s programme for government. We aim to reduce litter as part of our drive towards a zero-waste economy. Changing the attitude and behaviour of those who drop litter and casually fly-tip is essential, which is why the Government are committed to working with Keep Britain Tidy, businesses, local authorities and community groups on their “Love Where You Live” campaign. It appeals to all sectors of business and across all sectors of society, and support is coming from Wrigley, McDonald’s, Network Rail, Coca-Cola, Waitrose and many others. Businesses can contribute in many ways: by supporting the campaigning effort; by carrying their message to customers, staff and others; and, directly, through changing the design of their products, packaging and services to reduce the possibility of litter from the outset. The “Love Where You Live” campaign holds promise in being able to attract widespread support to capture the public’s imagination and inspire civic pride, especially in this year of the Queen’s diamond jubilee, and the London Olympic and Paralympic games.

[Christopher Pincher (Tamworth) (Con)]

Will my hon. Friend give way?

[Richard Benyon]

I am very short of time and I must answer the questions put by my hon. Friend the Member for South West Bedfordshire, but I will certainly give way at the end if I have time.

I, like my hon. Friend the Member for South West Bedfordshire, welcome the Daily Mail’s “Spring Clean for the Queen” campaign to encourage clean-up events for the Queen’s diamond jubilee.

I know that littering from vehicles is a particular problem for local authorities. In March, the Secretary of State met businesses, trade associations and local authority representatives to look at what more can be done to tackle this. There was great enthusiasm for voluntary action and for innovative ideas coming forward from business, including carrying branding and anti-litter messages in vehicles, in outlets and in communications with customers and staff to raise awareness of the issue. I was interested in what my hon. Friend was saying about the Highways Agency, because there is much more we can do, working with it.

Changing attitudes and behaviour is key. Much can be done through voluntary approaches to tackle littering from vehicles, but the Government’s mind is not closed to the regulatory route if that will work. London boroughs will soon start using powers under private legislation to issue a civil penalty against the registered keeper for littering. We want to see how that works in practice—to see if it helps to support behaviour change efforts elsewhere. If it works well, we will consider applying the approach more widely across the country.

The CPRE proposal for implementing a bottle deposit scheme has been mentioned. As part of the review of waste policies in 2011, the Department undertook a full analysis of the costs and benefits of implementing such a deposit system, based on the CPRE’s report “Have we got the bottle?” Although such a scheme may increase recycling rates for the materials covered and reduce litter, the estimated costs of running such a scheme are very high; they are much higher than alternative measures that could achieve the same aims. Taking that into account, it was decided not to take forward this option for the time being and instead to concentrate on other ways to increase recycling and address litter.

My hon. Friend mentioned bags. Concern about single-use carrier bags has also been raised frequently with my colleague Lord Taylor of Holbeach, who leads on this issue. We share the concern about the effect that those bags have on the environment, and about the increase in their distribution. We are looking carefully at all options to make sure that we further reduce their usage, and we are paying close attention to developments in Wales, where a 5p per bag minimum charge was introduced in October last year. The Welsh Government are currently evaluating their policy, and we will consider our position on carrier bags further following the evaluation of that scheme in July.

Let me deal with other issues that my hon. Friend raised, particularly the action we are taking against fly-tipping. The Government’s review of waste policy in England, published in June 2011, set out a range of measures to tackle fly-tipping. The approach advocated in the review is to make it easier for businesses and others to do the right thing with their waste, while also ensuring that the sanctions available act as a real deterrent to those responsible for waste crime.

A major area of concern is the cost incurred by public landowners for clearing up fly-tipping on their land where local authorities are not under any obligation to act. We do not have an accurate figure for fly-tipping on private land or for clearance costs, as landowners are not required to report them to Government. As my hon. Friend the Member for South West Bedfordshire says, however, the Country Land and Business Association estimates that it might cost their members, or landowners across the country, in the region of £50 million to £100 million a year to dispose of fly-tipped waste.

This issue was highlighted in recommendations made by the Farming Regulation Task Force in 2011. We are working towards the development of best practice on the prevention, reporting, investigation and clear-up of fly-tipping through the National Fly-tipping Prevention Group and the taskforce implementation group. The aim is to allow local solutions that will free landowners of much of the “hassle” associated with clearing fly-tipped waste from their land. We are also looking at developing a partnership approach between landowners and local authorities that will encourage clearance of fly-tipped waste and the adoption of measures to improve local environmental quality. We will be presenting our approach at a ministerial summit to be held with key stakeholder groups later this summer.

As for sanctions for fly-tipping, these include stronger powers for the Environment Agency and local authorities to seize vehicles further to investigate suspected involvement in fly-tipping, as well as revoking the registration of waste carriers who repeatedly flout the law. While the penalties for fly-tipping are sufficient—up to a £50,000 fine on summary conviction—we want to ensure that the levels of fines and sentences handed down by the courts act as a deterrent. We have provided evidence to the Sentencing Council, which is considering producing a separate sentencing guideline for magistrates on fly-tipping. I am now happy to give way to my hon. Friend the Member for Tamworth (Christopher Pincher), if he still wishes to intervene.

[Christopher Pincher]

If the offer is still on the table, I will; I am grateful to the Minister for sweeping me up in his remarks. He rightly says that public attitudes need to be changed. Does he agree that the flexible attitude of some councils to supporting volunteers is to be commended? In my Tamworth constituency, Streetscene, the street cleaners, offer volunteers bags, litter pickers and gloves, and come back at the end of the litter-picking exercise to take the bags away. Is not that sort of positive flexibility to be commended?

[Richard Benyon]

It certainly is. I commend those sorts of schemes, which I have seen happening elsewhere. There is also good partnership working to be had between parish councils, town councils and higher tiers of local authorities where equipment can be shared and know-how and guidance can be supplied to volunteer groups and communities that wish to carry out their own spring cleans. This is clearly to be welcomed.

What about people who put their waste out for collection incorrectly? This is a matter of concern. Hard-working people, who already have enough worries, should not face the threat of being punished for innocent mistakes such as putting their bins out an hour or two early. It can be a problem when that is wrongly labelled as somehow similar to fly-tipping. That is why we want to change the law so that only the small minority whose behaviour causes problems for their neighbours and harms the local environment as my hon. Friend described will be punished; we want to make the fines more proportionate. As a first step, we are changing the law to reduce the level of fines under the current fixed penalty notice regime. These changes are due to come into force on 30 May. We intend to make longer-term changes, including removing the current criminal sanctions, as parliamentary time allows.

My hon. Friend raised the issue of sanctions. He is right that littering is an offence under the Environmental Protection Act 1990. The litterer can be prosecuted in magistrates courts and can on conviction face a fine of up to £2,500, as well as getting a criminal record. As an alternative to prosecution, local authority enforcement officers can issue a fixed penalty notice of between £50 and £80; it can be set locally, and is soon to rise. So there are sanctions, and they do hurt the perpetrators of this crime—for it is a crime.

Underlying all that, however, is the need for us as a Government, and, perhaps, us as a society, to view the problem as a culture of littering which has been allowed to develop and which we see regularly in some corners of our constituencies. It requires education in schools, it requires education of the adult population, and it requires a true partnership between those who love and respect their communities—and who constitute the vast majority—and the inconsiderate minority who are apparently happy to see their communities trashed. I am a great believer in the “broken windows” theory of policing, and dealing with littering is at the heart of that. I hope that what I have said tonight provides clear evidence of the Government’s commitment to tackling the blight caused by litter, fly-tipping and waste.

[Andrew Selous]

Will my hon. Friend give way?

[Richard Benyon]

I am happy to do so, in the minute that is left.

[Andrew Selous]

I should be grateful if the Minister would return to whether local authorities throughout the United Kingdom can now follow the example of London authorities. Has the Localism Act 2011 given all our councils the power to make byelaws similar to those being made in London to deal with the problem of litter being thrown from vehicles?

[Richard Benyon]

Yes. Under the neighbourhood planning scheme and the Localism Act, authorities elsewhere in the country will be able to do what is being done in London, and I expect that to prove very welcome.

I think that this is an ideal issue for Members to discuss. My hon. Friend the Member for South West Bedfordshire and others who have remained in the Chamber to take part in the debate have demonstrated that it is possible for us to show real leadership and, together, to remedy a problem that has become much too prevalent throughout the country.

Question put and agreed to.

Oral Answers to Questions

Lord Benyon Excerpts

Thursday 26th April 2012 Commons Chamber

[John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab)]

10. What plans she has to improve air quality.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon)]

As you know, Mr Speaker, my right hon. Friend the Minister of State, who has responsibility for food and farming, is not here today as he is representing the UK at the Agriculture and Fisheries Council.

Air quality in the UK is much improved, though more needs to be done, especially in cities, where transport is the main issue. We must strike a balance between protecting health and the environment and supporting sustainable economic growth. Working with local authorities and others, we are investing significantly in cleaner, more sustainable transport. Underperformance against European vehicle emissions standards is making compliance on nitrogen dioxide challenging for us and many other member states.

[Jonathan Reynolds]

I welcome the Minister’s comments about air quality in cities, but I understand that air quality compliance in Greater Manchester and 16 other areas in the UK will now not be reached until 2020. Given the heavily congested roads, such as the A57, which goes through Mottram and Hollingworth in my constituency, I am not surprised. The A57 goes past Hollingworth primary school. How many children in England and Wales as a whole live or go to school within 150 metres of roads carrying 10,000 vehicles or more on average? Does the Minister feel that the Government’s strategy is adequate to improve air quality for them?

[Richard Benyon]

DEFRA does not hold information on the location of schools. Local authorities have duties to improve air quality and the responsibility is shared between Government and local authorities. We have provided funding for a range of possibilities, including green transport initiatives, and many local authorities are responding really well. The hon. Gentleman is right that there are real challenges in some urban areas, particularly with nitrogen dioxide levels. We are seeking to assist local authorities in trying to deal with hot spots, particularly when they are close to schools.

[Mr Tom Clarke]

Will the Minister tell the House the Government’s latest estimate, in percentage terms, of annual exposure to nitrogen dioxide for the poorest quintile of the population in England and Wales compared with the wealthiest?

[Richard Benyon]

The way in which member states quantify where they stand with regard to air pollution varies. In this country, we have a very rigorous system that divides the country into 43 air quality zones. If one area in a zone is failing, the whole zone is deemed to have failed. It is up to local authorities to work with the Government to deal with problems when they occur, when there are high levels of deprivation and, as the hon. Member for Stalybridge and Hyde (Jonathan Reynolds) mentioned, around schools. It is important that local authorities with access to that information use the funding that the Government give to address problems with air quality.

[John McDonnell]

When people enter this country—for example, to visit the Olympics—they land in the most air polluted area of the country. The Mayor’s strategy does not seem to have worked, the local air quality management zone has barely scraped the surface and we need a fresh initiative. Will the Minister meet me, a delegation of local councillors and others to see whether we can launch a fresh initiative, particularly around the Heathrow area?

[Richard Benyon]

I know that the hon. Gentleman works closely with agencies in the area, particularly on air quality issues emanating from Heathrow. My noble Friend Lord Taylor of Holbeach, who leads on this issue, will, I am sure, be willing to meet him and others to ensure that there are local strategies. I should point out that the Mayor, through his air quality strategy, has addressed many of the hon. Gentleman’s concerns. We are starting to see improvements in a number of areas and I look forward to being able to report improvements in London for 2011.

[Stephen Mosley (City of Chester) (Con)]

Will my hon. Friend update the House on progress to improve air quality through the work of the clean air fund?

[Richard Benyon]

Clean air fund measures are locally targeted to reduce PM10s by 10% to 20%. They include green infrastructure, dust suppressants, retrofitted buses and dealing with traffic hot spots where the stop-start of traffic has caused severe or marked increases in air pollution.

[Fiona O’Donnell (East Lothian) (Lab)]

Unbelievable! This is the second biggest public health challenge that the country faces, but all we have are excuses and inaction from the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs. With an estimated 29,000 premature—[Interruption.] We are talking about premature deaths, so I think that Government Members should quieten down. With an estimated 29,000 premature deaths a year in the UK from air pollution, why does the only action taken by DEFRA try to weaken EU laws that seek to protect the public?

[Richard Benyon]

That last point is completely wrong. In fact, there is a meeting next week in Geneva on the measures that we have taken as part of the Gothenburg agreement that will result in further improvements in air quality. There is no doubt that air quality has a marked effect on people’s health, particularly if they suffer from heart or lung conditions. We have begun to improve things, but a big challenge remains in London. The Mayor inherited poor air-quality conditions and, as a result of his strategy, we have begun to see big improvements.

[Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab)]

2. What her policy is on the control of dangerous dogs and tackling irresponsible dog owners; and if she will make a statement.

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Skidmore (Kingswood) (Con)]

3. What steps she is taking to secure the long-term future of rivers and waterways.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon)]

We are making excellent progress with our plan to transfer British Waterways’ navigations in England and Wales to the Canal and River Trust: funding has been agreed, the charity has been registered, the board of trustees is in place, the charity’s council has had its first meeting, and recruitment of members of the waterways partnerships is well under way. Subject to parliamentary approval, we plan to transfer the waterways in July, ensuring the network’s long-term future. Much is also being done to improve the quality of our rivers and their surrounding catchments.

[Chris Skidmore]

The River Avon runs through the bottom of my constituency. Alongside it runs the River Avon trail, a great example of how scenic waterways can be opened up for local people and visitors alike. Will the Minister accept an invitation to come to see at first hand the great work that has been done by those involved in this success?

[Richard Benyon]

I would certainly like to visit the trail, because I think that it is a wonderful example of how local people and riparian owners, working together, can really improve the quality of people’s lives and of the river. We recently launched our Love Your Rivers campaign, which I extol to Members on both sides of the House, because it is an opportunity to connect local people with their waterways and ensure that they understand that the water we rely on comes from the natural environment and how we can all be responsible for looking after it.

[Alun Michael (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op)]

Having chaired the all-party group on waterways for the past couple of years, I welcome the Minister’s willingness to engage with those who care for the waterways and with parliamentarians on these issues and the steps he has just described. Will he ensure that in future Ministers and officials fully respect the independence of the new Canal and River Trust and its trustees, as that is an essential part of the new structures he is putting in place?

[Richard Benyon]

May I put on the record my thanks to the right hon. Gentleman—I thank other Members too, but him particularly—for his work in supporting what we have been trying to do? He is a long-standing supporter of the waterways. I absolutely assure him that the governance model we have introduced will create an independent organisation that cannot be tampered with by Ministers in future, and certainly not by this Minister, who passionately wants the charity to succeed.

[Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD)]

Currently boats are allowed to discharge effluent into rivers and watercourses. I recognise the difficulties with some locations, which are very remote from any practical answer to the problem, but what measures is the Minister taking to call a complete halt to this practice so that the quality of beach bathing water, particularly in the west country, is kept to the very highest standards?

[Richard Benyon]

Water quality is an absolute fundamental, and releasing pollutants into waterways can affect our ability to comply with the directives that we have signed up to, such as the water framework directive, so it is an absolute priority as well. We have allocated funding to improve water quality. I will certainly look at any regulations, and if the new charity comes forward with suggestions that require legislation on any level, we will certainly consider that.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

4. What meetings she has had with Ministers from the devolved Administrations to discuss the European Council meeting on Agriculture and Fisheries on 26 and 27 April 2012.

--- Later in debate ---

[Nadhim Zahawi (Stratford-on-Avon) (Con)]

11. What steps she is taking to ensure that rural communities and businesses are fully engaged with the work of her Department.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon)]

DEFRA’s new England-wide rural and farming network provides a means of two-way engagement between DEFRA Ministers and 17 rural and farming network groups representing rural communities and businesses. DEFRA Ministers are proactively seeking meetings with those groups to ensure that they are engaged with the work of the Department. DEFRA continues to invest in the rural community action network and holds regular discussions with Lord Teverson’s Rural Coalition.

[Nadhim Zahawi]

I thank the Minister. Will he join me in congratulating all those involved in the successful bid from Coventry and Warwickshire for a rural growth network, and state how the Department will work with that network to improve engagement with the business community?

[Richard Benyon]

The cross-party board that examined the 29 applications from local economic partnerships and from some local authorities was really impressed by the rural growth network in my hon. Friend’s constituency. A credible, experienced set of partners brought it together, and it is a good network. Those partners are accustomed to delivery and believe that they will lever in £50 million of investment. That will mean jobs and technology-led industries, and I look forward to seeing how successful it will be in the coming years.

[Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con)]

T1. If she will make a statement on her departmental responsibilities.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lyn Brown (West Ham) (Lab)]

T2. There are reports that the Mayor of London sprays suppressants on roads immediately around key air pollution monitoring sites to reduce pollution readings. Given that there are an estimated 4,000 deaths in the capital a year owing to the air quality, would that not be an outrageous and rather callous scam? Does the Minister support the policy of pretending an issue does not exist rather than using scarce resources to deal with it?

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon)]

Suppressants are used as part of a wide strategy for dealing with pollution, and if the hon. Lady believes they are only used around monitoring stations, she is entirely wrong. They are used at pollution hot spots as a temporary measure, and as part of a wider strategy. The Mayor should be applauded for the measures that he is bringing in.

[Eric Ollerenshaw (Lancaster and Fleetwood) (Con)]

T3. Broadband for the Rural North is a community group in my constituency dedicated to bringing superfast broadband to a neglected part of our rural uplands. It is a real example of the big society in action, with hundreds of people coming together, putting their own money in, digging their own trenches and laying their own cables. What further help could DEFRA give, and will a Minister come to see what the group is doing to see how we can support it in fulfilling its potential?

[Richard Benyon]

I have heard of that noble initiative and many others, and can confirm that DEFRA has allocated £20 million as part of its rural broadband fund precisely to support such communities. I am keen to ensure that local initiatives fit in with Broadband Delivery UK and DEFRA’s role to ensure that we get superfast broadband to the hardest-to-reach communities. I praise my hon. Friend’s community for what it has done thus far.

[Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab)]

T4. PepsiCo, BT, the Co-op, Centrica and United Utilities all support mandatory carbon reporting to improve business environmental performance. The Secretary of State’s party supported it in opposition, but the statutory deadline for a decision has now been missed. They wanted to be the greenest Government ever, but when are they going to deliver on that?

--- Later in debate ---

[Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab)]

T6. On Tuesday, we mark the 80th anniversary of the mass trespass at Kinder Scout. In Bolton West, we also remember the anniversary of the mass trespass at Winter hill in 1896, when 10,000 Boltonians trespassed on the moors above Bolton. However, all hon. Members know that the campaign for public access is not over. Will the Secretary of State inform the House when the process of designating the next stretches of England’s coastal paths will begin?

[Richard Benyon]

I visited one of the next phases of the coastal path earlier this week in Somerset, and saw some of the complications of integrating land management with access. We inherited quite a complicated system that we are trying to make simpler, and the first section of the path that I opened at Weymouth has a “lessons learned” report, which we are working on. The next five sections will be announced shortly.

[Sheryll Murray (South East Cornwall) (Con)]

Will my hon. Friend explore every opportunity possible to negotiate with our European partners to secure exclusivity for UK vessels within our 12-mile limit in the forthcoming negotiations on the common fisheries policy?

[Richard Benyon]

I am going to Luxembourg this afternoon to take part in the Fisheries Council tomorrow. My hon. Friend is the voice in my head on such matters—[Laughter.] You know what I mean. If I can obtain 12-mile exclusivity, it will be a great achievement.

[Alun Michael (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op)]

T7. In the last year of the Labour Government, 42 community-owned shops opened, thanks mainly to support from DEFRA and the Plunkett Foundation. How many community-owned shops have opened in each year since the general election?

[Richard Benyon]

My hon. Friend the Deputy Leader of the House says that he has one opening next month, and one opened in my constituency in recent weeks. Beyond that, I am afraid that I cannot tell the right hon. Gentleman the exact figure, but there is fervent support for the kind of initiatives that see community shops opening. We want to do our best, through big society support and other policies, to ensure that more happen.

[Andrew George (St Ives) (LD)]

Further to the point raised by my hon. Friend the Member for South East Cornwall (Sheryll Murray), the Minister knows that the so-called historic entitlement of foreign vessels within the 12-mile zone is widely abused. In the forthcoming negotiations, will he ensure that the legal basis on which that historic entitlement is claimed is properly reviewed and the integrity of the 12-mile zone restored?

[Richard Benyon]

I want my hon. Friend and the House to understand that we are considering very seriously the suggestions that I have received in recent weeks, not least from the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee, about legal methods through which one could secure greater control. The most important thing is to get more regionalised and locally based management of our fisheries, and that is what I will discuss tomorrow in Luxembourg and will continue to discuss through the negotiations. I assure my hon. Friend that illegal activity in our 12-mile waters is something that I take very seriously and I want to ensure that enforcement is effective at every stage.

[Mr Speaker]

Mr Robert Flello, not here.

Flood Defences

Lord Benyon Excerpts

Wednesday 18th April 2012 Westminster Hall

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Stroud (Neil Carmichael) on securing this debate and on proving, yet again, that he is one of the most assiduous of our colleagues in raising such issues on behalf of his constituents. I am very keen to respond to the points that he has made, but before I do so, I want to touch on those made by another assiduous colleague, my hon. Friend the Member for Witham (Priti Patel), who talked about the Environment Agency and the sea defences in Essex.

I assure my hon. Friend that that is a matter of real interest to me. I want to ensure that all interested parties work extremely closely together on those defences and that any perceived or actual difficulties in securing and protecting farmland and properties are overcome. A protocol is in place to ensure that the National Farmers Union and the Country Land and Business Association work closely with the Environment Agency.

My hon. Friend has had meetings with all concerned, but I want to keep in touch with her and ensure that every effort is being made. I came across difficulties further north from her constituency when I came into this job. A few months later, I found a completely different attitude that was based on the concept of total environment but that was really just close working together of the parties involved. I give her the assurance that I will visit her constituency in the future if I can do so, so that I can see things for myself and try to take matters forward.

With sea level rises, climate changes and extremes of weather, we will have a lot of these debates in the House and I want to ensure that everything is being done as properly as it can be, that any protocols that exist are working and that we work closely together to resolve these issues, because they are of fundamental importance to the lives of our constituents.

My hon. Friend the Member for Stroud, who secured this debate, represents one of the most special parts of this country and one that I have some familiarity with. I find the Severn estuary, including the area of his constituency that is adjacent to the Severn estuary, to be one of the most mystical and beautiful places, with some wonderful farmland. There is no doubt that there are some communities in that area that look at issues such as climate change and sea level rises with a degree of concern for their future. I remember the village of Arlingham, which is surrounded on three sides by the River Severn. We have in mind communities such as the one in Arlingham when we try to plan for the future. I understand that we have to get the language right and that we do not create undue concern, or even undue scares, but at the same time we have to address the real issue of sea level rises and the impact that it is having.

My hon. Friend made a very sensible point about the rational view that most people have about these matters. They just want to ensure that all forms of government are doing what they can, when they can, to assist them. I hope that what I am about to say will give them the necessary reassurance. I will go on to talk about the Slad valley and the concerns about insurance that he raised.

Work on the Severn estuary flood risk management strategy is ongoing at community level. A draft strategy was prepared and put to the public for consultation last year. The aim was to establish the most effective and sustainable way to manage flood risk in the estuary during the next century. The Environment Agency is currently reviewing and assessing all responses to its consultation on the draft strategy. It will not implement the strategy as it stands. Instead, it is actively involving the local community in considering the future options for managing flood risk in the Severn estuary. As part of that approach, it regularly meets Gloucestershire NFU to ensure that landowners are involved in developing the strategy for the area.

Where the Environment Agency can no longer justify maintaining the current standard or line of defence, it will work with those affected to consider the other options, including landowners maintaining their own defences. Also, in circumstances where managed realignment or habitat creation could be an option, the agency will seek to work with those affected and implement schemes with their agreement. In the future, the agency plans to go to public consultation again. It will take forward the draft strategy for the Severn estuary once the proposals have been discussed in detail.

I should say that the current defences and planning are based on perceived sea level rises, but they are designed in such a way as to be extended as time goes on and if sea levels rise faster than expected. That is a really important point for my hon. Friend’s constituents; the approach is called adaptive management. What concerns people is when they see arbitrary lines drawn on maps that reflect perceived sea level rises that might or might not occur. We have already seen some variation in the predictions of sea level rises that were made some years ago; those rises have not happened. We want to ensure that we base the information on sound knowledge and evidence.

My hon. Friend has raised some important points about the Slad valley. Flood defences form a major element of how we manage flood risk, but they are only part of the solution. As my hon. Friend knows, 1,602 properties in his Stroud constituency are at risk from river and tidal flooding. There is currently no cost-effective way of further reducing the risk at the community level by way of major schemes, but the Environment Agency is still keen to take an active approach to managing flood risk in the community. On average, £190,000 a year is spent on maintaining the existing system of culverts and mills in the Slad valley to make the most use of the existing assets.

The Environment Agency was this very week removing vegetation and fallen trees, which could have caused blockages, from river channels. A considerable amount of ongoing river channel and culvert maintenance work takes place to keep the river systems flowing effectively, and that work is supplemented by individual property protection and resilience grants, which have been made available to the communities along the Slad brook and in Bridgend. So far, 10 properties from Slad have taken up the offer, which is still open.

A further proposal is being developed by the Slad brook action group, to which my hon. Friend referred, which is working closely with local authorities, the Environment Agency and a local water environment group—Water21—to encourage and construct land management measures upstream of Slad to reduce and slow down water run-off. By slowing down water in certain circumstances, we can protect a great many properties. I listened carefully to what my hon. Friend said about using existing assets, some of which were created more than a century ago, in a modern and innovative way to ensure that we provide cost-effective defences for people’s homes. We must never forget that we are talking about the most important asset in people’s lives—the roof over their head.

The Environment Agency has £300,000 of local levy money to implement land management measures. It is also working closely with the local authority on development planning to address flood risk management in the Slad valley on an incremental basis. I can assure my hon. Friend that the Environment Agency will continue to work with local people and groups, and with him as their local representative, and that we will consider any measure that we can fund with others, or that we can assist any organisation in providing, to protect people for the future.

I hear what my hon. Friend says about using such areas to test innovative ideas that can be used elsewhere. There is good cross-working in the Environment Agency, and we have an understanding of how to deal with the kind of flash floods that are now a feature of our lives because of changes to the climate. We must be aware of the fact that no one is a repository of all the wisdom here, and I can assure my hon. Friend that we will work closely with his constituents to use best practice and come up with new ideas that may assist us with the problem.

My hon. Friend raised the important point of insurance. I recognise that insurance for properties in flood risk areas is of concern to many people. The Government have continued to listen to, and closely involve, organisations that represent insurers and communities at flood risk. We are in the advanced stages of developing a new shared understanding, which sets out more clearly what individual customers can expect from their insurers. An announcement will be made in the near future to reflect the continued responsibility of the Government and insurers and their commitment to ensuring that insurance for flood risk remains widely available.

We are actively exploring value-for-money ways to target support at households that might struggle with premium increases. It is also worth putting on record that the Government’s prime responsibility here is building flood defences, whether for coastal erosion or for surface water or fluvial flooding. We must continue to invest, and we are spending a lot of taxpayers’ money— £2.13 billion over this spending period—to protect people’s homes from flooding. There are many things that we can do with insurers, and we are working closely with them to achieve those aims.

The debate has raised important issues. Engaging with local communities, developing innovative solutions to flood risk management and protecting the most vulnerable from flooding, whether through new defences or insurance, are key principles of our new partnership funding system. The reforms provide improved transparency and greater certainty for communities about the potential funding from the general taxpayer for every flood and coastal defence project. They also allow local areas to have a bigger say in what is done to protect them. Therefore, over time, local ambitions for protection no longer need to be constrained by what national budgets can afford, and innovative, cost-effective solutions will be encouraged, in which civil society may play a greater role. With contributions under the new funding system, combined with efficiency savings, the Environment Agency and other risk management authorities are on course to exceed their goal to better protect 145,000 households by March 2015.

My hon. Friend referred to flood maps, and I want to get this on the record as well. The Environment Agency updates flood maps every three months. The data are provided to all local authorities and to the Association of British Insurers, and they are on the Environment Agency’s website. We are considering new approaches to communicating the information. I understand the frustration that many constituents feel—mine included—when they are wrongly assessed, usually over the telephone and often on a postcode basis, as being at flood risk, when the insurance company or the broker has access to the information. We are not talking about national secrets; we are proud to share the information, particularly when new assets are constructed. We must find better, more innovative ways to ensure that we inform people. Some insurance companies are good at uploading the information but others are not, and we are working closely with a number of organisations to achieve a better result for people at flood risk.

Managing the risk of flooding to communities remains an absolute priority for the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, and we do it not only by trying to minimise the chance of flooding in our communities, but through reducing the impacts should flooding occur. Our new approach to funding allows local communities to have greater control over how flood risk is managed in their area. Maintaining existing flood risk management systems, as well as investing in improved protection, reduces the chance of floods affecting our communities. Flood insurance is an important element in reducing the impacts of floods on communities and in giving reassurance and peace of mind to those at risk. The Government remain committed to ensuring that cover for flooding remains widely available once the statement of principles agreement with the insurance industry comes to an end next year.

I shall end where I began, by assuring my hon. Friend that I will continue to work with him to ensure that the issues that he has raised are worked through and that we can face the future, which is uncertain because of weather patterns and sea risk, on the basis of the best knowledge available through open and clear consultation. In that way, we can achieve the best result for his constituents.

Question put and agreed to.

Rural Communities

Lord Benyon Excerpts

Tuesday 17th April 2012 Westminster Hall

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon)]

I think that we all enjoyed the comedy act put on by the hon. Member for Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies). Listening to the Opposition Front-Bench spokesman talking about rural matters is the absolute epitome of incoherence, which was a word that he used. It reminded me of the Judean People’s Front sitting around asking, “What have the Romans ever done for us?”

I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire (Simon Hart) for giving me this great opportunity to talk about some of the things that the coalition is doing for rural areas. I pay tribute to him for securing the debate and for the powerful speech that he made.

I will put on the record the ambition that DEFRA Ministers and the Government have for rural communities. If someone who is elderly, sick, mentally ill, out of work or on a low income lives in a rural community, the problems imposed by rurality are increased by isolation. Those are obvious points that we all understand. Therefore, the Government’s policy must recognise that and ensure that we are delivering services fairly and equally, so that the rurality in which that those people live does not adversely discriminate against their circumstances.

There has been talk of the sense of victimhood being felt by those who live in the countryside. That is legitimate to an extent because one might see a village that in every other sense looks idyllic, but there may be three or four homes—or 30 or 40 in a larger village—that contain people who are suffering deprivation, which is less visible than in a gritty city environment. We have to be nuanced, clever and careful, and focus our policies like a laser beam on helping those people.

That is one side of the issue, but the other side is equally important if we want to raise the aspirations of those who are suffering deprivation. We need to have a positive view of how the countryside can provide a driver for the economy of the country, and we need an uplifting view of the contribution that rural communities and the rural economy can play. That is the view we in this Government have. An idyllic, rural landscape is not just about the trees, the fields and the beauty that we see; it is about the noises of activity, business and life. It is also about children playing in a village school yard, a shop that is operating and, if we can roll out broadband, a creative industry operating out of a set of redundant farm buildings. That is what a true rural landscape is about.

For too long, Governments have imposed policy on rural areas using what the Americans call an “inside the beltway”—or within the M25—mentality. The view has been that if something is right for inside the M25 or within an urban setting, it must be right for the countryside. That is why the previous Government lost the faith of those living in the countryside and why it is ridiculous to hear the hon. Member for Ogmore, who is better than the speech he just made, try to pretend that somehow rural communities were better before.

In the short time I have left, I will try to address as many points made in the excellent contributions to the debate as I can. DEFRA is the rural champion within the Government. Our role is to help Departments understand the rural context and the issues that face rural businesses and communities. We have set up the rural communities policy unit right at the heart of DEFRA to encourage Departments to ensure that their policies and programmes meet rural needs and interests. That unit has been in operation for a year and is engaging effectively at an early stage in the development of policy across the Government.

The hon. Member for North Antrim (Ian Paisley) rightly referred to rural proofing. That is a subject for a debate in itself and is something we are taking seriously in our cross-Government role of ensuring that policies are not just considered within the beltway and that the impact on rural areas is understood.

The RCPU is working hard to engage proactively and communicate with rural communities and their representative organisations and to stimulate debate about rural needs and propose solutions. That work is critical to ensuring that evidence and intelligence from our rural stakeholders informs Government policy and its delivery. After the debate, I will attend the first annual meeting of the new rural and farming network, which involves chairs of all the rural and farming networks that we have set up around the country coming to meet Ministers. That is a welcome change and something that Lord Taylor, my right hon. Friend the Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs and I thought up in opposition. We have now implemented the initiative right across England, so that there is a real direct connection to Ministers and a two-way street of communication. We can therefore ask those involved how policies are working in their area, and they can tell us about their problems as well. Those new networks are a welcome and important addition to communication and to trying to ensure that rural communities do not feel isolated and not listened to, as they have undoubtedly been in the past.

We also work closely with Action with Communities in Rural England, so that the Government benefit from regular access to up-to-date local intelligence about rural areas and from talking to experts who can offer practical advice on the design and delivery of programmes and policies. The RCPU also regularly meets the Rural Coalition, which is under Lord Teverson’s chairmanship, to facilitate strategic input into key policy areas across the Government.

On ensuring that policy is connected, let us consider one example of why the previous Government got it wrong. The Rural Payments Agency encouraged farmers to fill in their forms online. A lot of farmers live in areas where there is lamentable or no broadband signal, so they ended up having to take their forms down to the pub on a memory stick to download their data to the RPA. That is one of many past examples of how not to do policy, and it also shows why broadband is so important.

Let us consider broadband in the wider context. Broadband is much more than just a deliverer of jobs; it is about social inclusion. In this debate, we have talked about health, education and skills and about wanting to get more young people living and working in our rural communities. Broadband is about providing opportunities for those young people. However, it is also about an elderly person being able to shop online and someone being able to have access to information that can improve their needs if they are, for example, out of work.

It should be—and it will be and it is—our absolute ambition to ensure that someone who lives in a remote part of, for example, the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Penrith and The Border (Rory Stewart) can set up and run a creative industry requiring a fast broadband speed as easily someone in one of our cities. That is our ambition. DEFRA has rolled out a rural broadband fund to try to get to those hardest-to-reach groups. Wonderful work has been done, not least in my hon. Friend’s constituency, which I visited recently. I saw the enthusiasm among local people to work with Broadband Delivery UK and other agencies to make sure that the roll-out of broadband is working. I entirely understand that when we make a bold announcement, people might feel frustrated and start to ask, “When is it going to happen? When will you start to deliver it?” Our commitment to have the best broadband across the country by 2015 is on track and it is important that we continue to maintain DEFRA’s role in reaching the hardest-to-reach groups of people. I entirely agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Sherwood (Mr Spencer) when he talked about broadband being the fourth utility.

My hon. Friend the Member for Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire who initiated the debate asked whether we could make sure that the Government are doing things not to the countryside but for the countryside. That is how we see ourselves in DEFRA. We are a team of Ministers with a real commitment, and we are driving the issue forward with key groups of people, such as the RCPU, so that we can make a difference to how people live.

In the minute that I have left, I want to cover health care. Under the Health and Social Care Act 2012, there is a commitment—a duty—on NHS commissioning boards to prevent health inequalities in local areas, which is a concern for a lot of people. For example, it is much easier to deliver stroke care therapies in a large city than in rural areas, where doing so is more expensive. That is just one example of Government policy. We want to ensure, working across the Government, that we propose effective policies in rural areas.

Many hon. Members made other points, but I am afraid that I am running out of time. I want to give this commitment. What we are talking about in supporting rural communities is both a positive, optimistic view and the need to recognise that there are very serious problems. We will need to have frequent conversations in the House about how successful—

[Mr Jim Hood (in the Chair)]

Order.

National Policy Statement (Waste Water)

Lord Benyon Excerpts

Monday 19th March 2012 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon)]

I beg to move,

That this House takes note of and approves the National Policy Statement for Waste Water, which was laid before this House on 9 February.

The waste water national policy statement sets out Government policy for the provision of waste water infrastructure of national significance in England. It will be used from this April by the Planning Inspectorate, as the examining body, and by the Secretary of State, as the decision maker, as the primary basis for making decisions on development consent for nationally significant infrastructure projects.

Consultation on the waste water national policy statement took place between November 2010 and February 2011. At the same time, it was subject to parliamentary scrutiny. The Select Committee on Environment, Food and Rural Affairs undertook scrutiny for the House by holding oral hearings and taking written evidence. It published a report of its findings in April 2011, with 19 recommendations and conclusions, to which the Government responded in February 2012.

I would like to take this opportunity to thank the Select Committee, nobly and expertly chaired by my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Miss McIntosh), for its hard work and for its determination to get to grips with a subject area that was new to some Committee members and, at the time when I gave evidence, relatively new to me. I am grateful to the Committee for scrutinising the national policy statement in a relatively short period. I hope that it can see that its contribution has helped to refine and improve the document before the House.

[Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab)]

The Minister is being his usual modest self in saying that he was not au fait with the subject. He is now up to his knees, if not his waist, in the subject, having dealt with the Water Industry (Financial Assistance) Bill last week and in introducing this debate. I believe that the Select Committee had some doubt about major projects being included in the NPS. For the avoidance of doubt, are the Government unshaken in their view that projects such as the Thames tunnel and Deephams sewage works should be included in the NPS? Whatever the final decision on the route and the detail, it is important to be clear—[Interruption.]

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

Order. I will make the judgments about the length of interventions, thank you. We want short interventions. I presume that the hon. Gentleman has got to the end of his.

[Richard Benyon]

I think I got the gist of it. I will come on to cover the key points that were made by the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee and to explain what the waste water national policy statement is. I think that I will address the hon. Gentleman’s points, but I am happy to let him intervene again.

In laying the waste water national policy statement before the House for approval and in having this debate, we are meeting a Government commitment to mirror the new requirements of the Planning Act 2008 that will be brought into effect next month under the Localism Act 2011. Those procedures are intended to make national policy statements more democratically accountable to Parliament.

The Government are committed to making the planning system more open, transparent and fast, and to ensuring that all those who want to get involved in the process can do so, whether it relates to an application to extend a property or to a project of national significance, such as the Thames tunnel. The abolition of the Infrastructure Planning Commission brings democratic accountability back into the determination of nationally significant infrastructure projects by giving decision-making powers back to Ministers, who are answerable to Parliament. Ministers will also have regard to recommendations made by the Planning Inspectorate.

National policy statements are a key component of a more open and accountable planning system. They will set out Government policy clearly on particular types of infrastructure of national significance, having been subject in draft form to both formal consultation and parliamentary scrutiny. National policy statements provide a framework for preparing, considering and deciding development consent applications. This national policy statement is therefore primarily for planning purposes and does not claim to be a complete statement of Government policy on waste water.

Effective waste water infrastructure is vital, because without suitable treatment, the waste water we produce every day would damage the water environment and create problems for public health, water resources and wildlife. The proper collection, treatment and discharge of waste water, and the correct disposal of the resulting sludge, helps to protect, maintain and improve water quality in the UK.

The criterion that we have used in the national policy statement for the demonstration of the need for nationally significant infrastructure projects is that the projects have been included in the Environment Agency’s national environment programme. The Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee recommended that that issue needed to be clarified and I believe that our approach now addresses its concerns.

In addition to establishing the need for waste water infrastructure, our national policy statement sets out impacts that will be relevant for any waste water infrastructure, including details on mitigating adverse impacts. Those are issues that the Planning Inspectorate and Ministers will have to have regard to when examining and determining applications.

The national policy statement does not describe how any waste water projects of national significance should be developed. I think that this addresses in part the point made by the hon. Member for Hammersmith (Mr Slaughter). How such projects are developed is up to the project promoter before they place an application for development consent, which from April this year will go to the Planning Inspectorate.

The waste water national policy statement details two proposed projects of national significance: the sewage treatment works scheme at Deephams in north-east London and the Thames tunnel. The justification for both developments and the consideration of alternatives to the Thames tunnel are fully explained in the document.

Currently, only the proposed upgrade of the Deephams sewage treatment works can be considered a potential nationally significant infrastructure project, as it meets the criteria in the Planning Act 2008 for waste water treatment facilities serving a population equivalent of 500,000 people. We will shortly lay a draft order before Parliament for its approval, to amend section 14 of that Act to enable a waste water transfer and storage project such as the Thames tunnel to be classed as a nationally significant infrastructure project.

London’s sewerage is under considerable pressure, due to a system that is close to capacity, changing land use in London and population expansion. That leads to frequent spills of untreated waste water containing sewage into the tidal reaches of the Thames, which has a negative impact on its water quality. Resolving that problem has been the subject of extensive and comprehensive studies, including the consideration of a wide range of alternative solutions, for more than a decade. As a result, the Government are satisfied that the development of the Thames tunnel, when compared with the alternatives, is the most cost-effective and timely solution to the problem of untreated sewage discharging into the River Thames. That is demonstrated in the waste water national policy statement.

[Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) (LD)]

One of the arguments that the Minister has just made is that the proposed tunnel is the most cost-effective way of dealing with the problems in the Thames. Can he point me to any cost-benefit analysis that has happened in the last couple of years, since the initial study was made in 2006 and since the cost of the project has risen from £1.7 billion or thereabouts to £4.1 billion?

[Richard Benyon]

Like my right hon. Friend, I am concerned about the cost of the project. That is why my Department has instructed Ernst and Young to advise it in detail on the cost-benefit analyses that have been carried out to date, recognising, of course, that not far off a quarter of the estimated price is a contingency. It is important that throughout the process we are open about the figures that are arrived at. These matters concern not just his constituents and those of other London Members but 144 Members whose constituents pay Thames Water bills, of whom I am one.

I can assure my right hon. Friend that, as I said in last week’s debate, Ministers remain healthily sceptical about the cost of the project. We want to ensure that it provides value for money, and I am happy to tell him that cost-benefit analysis will be an ongoing process. I assure him that the alternatives that we have examined, which may be more attractive on the face of it, such as retrofitting sustainable urban drainage systems across London or separating clean water from dirty, cannot compare favourably with the cost of the tunnel. Indeed, one of the options that I have seen would come in at somewhere between three and four times the cost of the Thames tunnel scheme. I take the matter very seriously and will be happy to keep him informed of our progress.

[Mr Andrew Love (Edmonton) (Lab/Co-op)]

One concern about both the development at Deephams and the Thames tunnel is the role of Ofwat. There is concern that Ofwat’s attention may be somewhat too concentrated on the Thames tunnel, for all the good reasons that we have discussed, and that it may not give sufficient priority to Deephams. Can the Minister reassure us that that will not be allowed to happen?

[Richard Benyon]

I can assure the hon. Gentleman that that is a matter of great importance to Ofwat. It has agreed funding to progress the Deephams upgrade, which will increase treatment capacity to accommodate the expected growth. I am convinced that Ofwat is taking the project seriously, but I am happy to write to him with more details. I think it would strenuously deny that it is looking myopically at the Thames tunnel, to the exclusion of Deephams. Of course, it is perfectly in order for him to contact Ofwat, because it is the independent economic regulator of these matters.

We made statements to the House about the Thames tunnel in November 2011, accompanied by documents setting out what we believe is the irrefutable case that it is the correct scheme for our capital city. To address the hon. Gentleman’s concern, I point out that although improvements to the Deephams sewage treatment works may have received less public attention over the years, they are on a large scale. The current site covers about 30 hectares and is the ninth largest sewage treatment works in England.

The improvements are essential to ensure that environmental quality standards in the waterways into which the treatment works discharge meet European and national standards. As the developer, Thames Water, is still evaluating the site and treatment options prior to selecting a preferred option for development, the waste water national policy statement does not consider alternative options. It will be for Thames Water to justify its preferred option in its development consent application.

The national policy statement, as with planning policy documents in general, does not prescribe the use of specific technologies. That is to ensure that developers are not fettered by the Government from taking account of future technological advancements. It is up to the developer to justify in its application its preferred treatment option, including any options it has considered and ruled out.

Although the national policy statement details two potential nationally significant infrastructure projects, may I stress that we are not here to debate how those schemes may be delivered? Our purpose is to discuss whether the national policy statement fulfils its requirements under the 2008 Act, and therefore whether it is fit for purpose. Designation of this national policy statement is not the last opportunity for people to have their say on development consent applications for waste water infrastructure of national importance. Developers must consult local communities before submitting an application to the Planning Inspectorate, and people will have the chance to have their say during the examination by registering and making representations to the Planning Inspectorate.

The waste water national policy statement is critical in helping to deliver important infrastructure developments and in ensuring that the right framework is used in the consideration of development consent applications. I strongly believe that the waste water national policy statement provides robust justification for the new infrastructure proposed. I welcome the debate and look forward to responding, with the leave of the House, to the points raised in it.

--- Later in debate ---

[Richard Benyon]

With the leave of the House, I will respond to the points raised in the debate. I apologise if my response is hurried and does not deal with points in the order in which they were raised.

Important points have been raised in this debate. I concede that this is a serious matter, particularly the Thames tunnel element of it. I share many of the concerns expressed by my right hon. Friend the Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes) and my hon. Friend the Member for Cities of London and Westminster (Mark Field). I repeat my earlier assurance to them: I do not enter this matter with blind disregard to the impact that it will have on their constituents and mine, including in the construction phase. Many hon. Members who have spoken on previous occasions are rightly concerned about the impact of the project and its construction. I assure hon. Members that I remain willing to be engaged. Let us not pretend that this is the last occasion on which this scheme or other such schemes will be debated in the House. There will be opportunities to raise these issues in the House and I remain willing to be held accountable.

Essentially, those of us in government are all laymen, unless we are lucky enough to have a specific engineering skill. I do not have banking experience or engineering experience of large projects, so I seek to get it. I am gifted with a good team supporting me in the Department, but I can assure Members that these schemes, particularly the Thames tideway, are rightly matters of concern not just to my Department but right across Government, and to agencies such as the Environment Agency and Ofwat.

Recommendation 9 in the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee’s report was very important. It suggested a serious look at how Ofwat saw the Thames tunnel. The Government’s response, which I will not repeat, set out clearly that Ofwat accepted without reservation the Committee’s recommendation that it must make full use of its regulatory powers

“to scrutinise the economic case for the Thames Tunnel project and be rigorous in determining which costs should be passed on to Thames Water customers.”

I know that Ofwat would want me to continue to provide assurances about that.

My hon. Friend the Member for Cities of London and Westminster commented on the risk of infraction of the urban waste water treatment directive. I remind the House that the UK is already in the European Court of Justice with respect to the combined sewer outflows into the Thames, so far from there being a risk of gold-plating, there is a risk that the Court will find that we are doing too little. We await its judgment later this year, but I would be surprised if it came to the conclusion that the Thames tunnel was not required.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark mentioned cost-benefit analysis. There was an analysis in December 2011 to support the ministerial statement, and it took account of the increased costs of the project. As I said earlier, I assure him that we are examining the matter rigorously with advice from Ernst and Young and others, and will continue to do so. We will reassure the House of our assessment from time to time. As I said, Ministers will remain sceptical about the cost of the project, and we will drill down to ensure that we deal with it as well as possible.

The hon. Member for Luton South (Gavin Shuker) spoke in support of what the Government are seeking to do, and he made a number of points. He mentioned the definition of sustainable development. On page 9 of the Government’s framework document, in paragraph 2.2.3, the Government’s key policy objectives are set out, and a definition is given of sustainable development in relation to the national policy statement. We will also shortly publish the national planning policy framework, which my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Miss McIntosh) mentioned. That, too, will set out the Government’s definition, moving forward from that of the Brundtland commission. The Environmental Audit Committee has done some work on the development of that definition, and I hope that there is general agreement about it throughout the House.

The hon. Member for Luton South mentioned the green deal, which of course has a blue element—hot water. I entirely share his ambition that the Government should examine the success that I am sure there will be in the green deal and see whether we can retrofit water-saving measures into households. There is a whole range of ways to do that. I refer him to our green infrastructure partnership, which is overseeing the retrofitting of large sustainable drainage systems into developments and which we hope will be a real success. He also made a point about energy recovery, and my noble Friend Lord Taylor is liaising with the Department of Energy and Climate Change on that important matter.

My hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton, the Chairman of the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee, mentioned the cost of the Thames tunnel and also talked about the consultation on the national policy statement. It lasted 14 weeks and was considered to be within the scope of the Planning Act 2008, and stakeholders were contacted. I am sure the House will continue to consider better ways of consulting people. When consultations have passed, we always discover that some stakeholders and groups feel that they have not been involved. We must seek to do better, and I know that the House will continue to work on that, including through the Select Committee process.

My hon. Friend and other hon. Members asked why we are not establishing a red line on costs for the Thames tunnel project. As I have said, we are working across Government, with Ofwat, Infrastructure UK and Thames Water, to ensure that the Thames tunnel represents proper value for money, that the engineering costs of the tunnel are minimised, and that the project is delivered efficiently, with a structure and financing mechanism that delivers value for money for those who will pay for it.

My hon. Friend also raised the question of SUDS, which was no surprise to me or any other hon. Member—it is an important point. The Government’s intention is to implement the SUDS measures as soon as possible. Implementation dates are being explored in the consultation. Our initial proposal is to commence in October 2012, and during consultation we are seeking feedback on the feasibility of that date for those affected, including developers and local authorities. During the consultation period, officials have been working on a series of additional consultation events, including workshops around the country for local authorities on their capacity to deliver the SUDS requirements.

The hon. Member for Edmonton (Mr Love) raises, with his usual vigour, his concerns for his constituents. There is not time to go into them in detail, but I assure him that I will meet him and his constituents to ensure that we address the points he raises. Thames Water recognises that the odour at Deephams is a key issue for local stakeholders and is working with the Environment Agency, the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, Ofwat and local authorities. It can mitigate the problem to a degree. Options include covering and controlling odorous air from primary treatment plants.

The national policy statement requires all waste water treatment infrastructure projects of national significance examined by the Planning Inspectorate to include an appropriate odour impact assessment as part of the environmental statement. The applicant should assess that potential, so I hope the hon. Gentleman’s constituents will be living in a slightly more favourable environment in future.

My hon. Friend the Member for Cities of London and Westminster asked how much pollution is in our river at the moment. We must produce more evidence to satisfy him, but the fact is that there are 50 to 60 overflows from combined sewage overflows every year. That is set to increase. An element of that is being dealt with by the Lee Valley project, but another 18 million tonnes is flowing through our river, in one of the most important cities in the world. Yes, we require caution on cost, but we also require a resolute approach to deal with that.

Discharge events are increasing, and we know that only 2 mm of rain results in a combined sewage overflow. My hon. Friend is absolutely right that that will not change the colour of our river. Londoners and any visitor to this great city will stand on our bridges and see no demonstrable change in the colour of the river, but most people recognise that a bubbler system, which has worked well in Cardiff harbour, which is of course a lagoon rather than a tidal river, will not resolve the problem. Professor Binnie, who has been prayed in aid on all sides of the argument, seems to have come down on the same side that the Government reluctantly came down on, and concluded that the scheme should go ahead. He was right to do so.

I apologise to hon. Members if I have not been able to answer all their points, but this important debate is ongoing, and I commend the statement to the House.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved,

That this House takes note of and approves the National Policy Statement for Waste Water, which was laid before this House on 9 February.

Common Fisheries Policy

Lord Benyon Excerpts

Thursday 15th March 2012 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon)]

I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Miss McIntosh) for securing this important debate in the House, and I commend the excellent report that her Committee has produced. This debate has benefited from some very interesting interventions and speeches by hon. Members on both sides of the House, and I hope to refer to as many of them as possible.

My hon. Friend launched the debate with real knowledge and enthusiasm. Her enthusiasm for and interest in the subject are apparent from how she speaks about it, and they are very welcome. I enjoyed taking part in one of her Committee’s sittings on this subject, and I was impressed by the level of knowledge and interest across the Committee.

In answer to the hon. Member for East Lothian (Fiona O’Donnell) and others, I am happy to report on how we are progressing with our discussions in the European Union. On Monday I am going to Brussels, where I will be discussing, not least, regionalisation, as well as the external dimension, on which we are making some progress, although it has not yet got to where I want it to be. I entirely share the position taken by the hon. Lady and my hon. Friend the Member for South East Cornwall (Sheryll Murray) in abhorring the dreadful practices that we have learned about in recent years regarding the external footprint of fishing vessels that are subsidised by our constituents’ taxes so that they can fish unsustainably in the waters of some of the poorest countries in the world. I am looking forward to putting forward a very robust line on that, and I am impressed by the progress that my officials are making on it.

We will also be talking about discards, which I will discuss later. The hon. Member for Banff and Buchan (Dr Whiteford) will be interested to know that we will deal with the thorny issue of mackerel and the perhaps not-very-sustainable activities of the Government of Iceland and the Faroe Islands. The hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil), who extolled the virtues of the Faroe Islands, might like to reflect on the fact that that country is not behaving at all properly in this matter.

I know as well as anyone how complex the issues are surrounding the whole area of the common fisheries policy and how difficult it is to unpick the diverse and interlinked problems that we face in reforming this failed policy. The Committee’s inquiry gets to the heart of these issues with a remarkable degree of perspicuity, and it has, as I said, delivered a very impressive report. The Committee’s thinking also reflects the stance that we are taking across a range of important priorities for reform of the CFP. It is crucial that we get past the “one size fits all” mindset that has served European fisheries so badly.

My hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport (Oliver Colvile) hosted my visit to the wonderful Plymouth marine laboratory, where we saw the impact of climate change. We saw how the fronts that change the temperatures of our seas in different places are moving, and how fish populations are moving. It is clearly ridiculous to have one constraining system for managing our fisheries that goes from the sub-Arctic waters of the north to the waters of the south Mediterranean. We must have a system that is much more fleet of foot, and we can do that only if it is more locally managed. I will come on to talk about how we are going to try to achieve that.

We are facing a critical stage in the negotiations in the coming months, and I will continue to press for radical reform; as I said, I will do that at the Fisheries Council in Brussels next week. In addition to those discussions on reform, we will have further discussions in April, May and June. The European Parliament is also considering the proposals in its committee stages, and we expect a plenary vote there on the whole package by the autumn.

The Committee’s report rightly highlights the importance of regionalisation. We must find ways to allow member states to work together regionally on the detail of fisheries management—in discussion, of course, with stakeholders—and I agree that we can do that within the bounds of the current treaty. Technical and legal constraints should not overshadow our aims in this regard, and that has been our message to others. I hope that I will discover that the issues of competence are as clear as the Committee suggests. We have been exploring with other member states the types of provision that it has identified in order to build support for potential solutions. I can assure my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton that members of her Committee are not the only ones with access to legal opinions. In my experience, there are many and varied legal opinions on the subject, and it is important that they should be robust and able to stand up to the rigours of challenge.

The Commission’s proposals reflect that same concept of empowering member states to take some of their own decisions. However, we are concerned that conferring more delegated powers on the Commission, as the proposals have the potential to do, might end up centralising decisions again.

I made an interesting visit to the constituency of the hon. Member for South Down (Ms Ritchie). I quite understand why she is not in her place, because she informed me that she would have to depart. I was shown a net in which an eliminator panel had been put in precisely the right place to allow cod to escape, but the net was deemed illegal by people who manage fisheries about 1,000 miles away from the fishermen who use it. They insisted that the eliminator panel should be further towards the cod end, even though the fishermen knew that by that stage the fish would be too tired to swim up through it. How crazy is that? What lunacy it is to have a system that does not allow the fishery in a particular area to develop the means to do virtuous things such as excluding discards.

I recognise that what I can achieve will probably never be quite what my hon. Friend the Member for South Dorset (Richard Drax), the hon. Member for Great Grimsby (Austin Mitchell) and others would like, but I will do my best to achieve as much as I can.

The genuine regionalisation that the Government and the Select Committee are calling for will need the robust co-operation of member states on shared fisheries for it to be credible and to win support from others. Empowering member states to take some decisions may form part of the process, but it might not solve the whole problem. As many hon. Members have said, many of our fish stocks are shared with other countries and can best be managed on a regional basis. I believe that a properly devolved system, with close co-operation between member states, operating with an ecosystem-based approach, as the hon. Member for Brent North (Barry Gardiner) mentioned, is the right way forward.

The hon. Member for East Lothian asked if we have friends in Europe on this matter. We do. There are many like-minded states that share my sense of exhaustion over and rhetoric on how appalling this system is, and we are working closely with them. It is mainly, but not exclusively, the northern European states that have a like-minded view. I hope that we will find plenty of allies in the coming weeks.

[Dr Whiteford]

Does the Minister think that the regional advisory council model is appropriate for aquaculture?

[Richard Benyon]

I am grateful to the hon. Lady for reminding me of the very good point that she made. I share her view entirely that this is an area where the European Union does not need to tread. We have a successful aquaculture industry in the United Kingdom. We are all aware of the agenda here. Some of the more land-locked countries, which are seeking to access some of the European fisheries money, are interested in developing a competence over aquaculture. I assure her that I am robust in trying to exclude that possibility. How successful I will be remains to be seen.

We remain hopeful that the reformed CFP can build in a robust process to regionalise decision making. That will require agreement not only on issues of legal competence, but on practical processes for co-operation on management decisions with other member states which are transparent and enforceable. We will continue to press for that and will build support with the member states that share our fisheries.

The hon. Member for East Lothian asked when I last met the commissioner. It was just a few weeks ago. I meet her regularly and count her as an ally and a friend. I think she needs friends at the moment. I will be robust in giving our support for what she is trying to do. She needs legal advice as well. There are legal opinions coming from all directions on these matters and we are keen to provide her with ours.

I pay tribute to the hon. Member for Aberdeen North (Mr Doran), who made a thoughtful speech. He addressed a serious problem that goes to the heart of the credibility of an industry for which I have the highest regard. We should not minimise in any way the fact that when black fish are sold on the scale that he described, those fish have been stolen from legitimate fishermen. That is a crime of multi-million-pound proportions, and he was both brave and right to state that.

To achieve what we want to, we will require improvements in how we collect data and develop scientific evidence. A number of Members have referred to that. At the moment, the process can often lack robust data or be too narrowly focused on the short term to be credible with fishermen or to help policy makers. A more grown-up relationship is needed between scientists, fishermen and policy makers so that we can gather more effective data on the impact of fishing on the whole marine environment, and build trust. The fisheries science partnership that we have in the UK will help to pave the way to achieving that.

Nearly every Member who spoke referred to discards. I say to the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar—[Interruption.] That pronunciation is the best I can do at this stage of the week, I am afraid. I remind him that more than half the tonnage of discarded fish has absolutely nothing to do with the European Union but is because it is made up of species that we do not eat and for which there is no market. There is a supply chain solution to that if we are imaginative. I am not diminishing the blame that must be apportioned to the system of management that creates the remainder of the discards, and we must not stop trying to deal with that, but more than 50% of discards are because there is no market. Great progress is being made on that, not least by DEFRA, through good projects such as Fishing for the Markets.

I am glad that my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton mentioned my evidence to the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee, in which I said how wrong it would be if we created a system that transferred a problem over the horizon at sea to one of landfill. Through a discard ban or an elimination of discards, we need to progress a supply chain solution to creating new markets for fish.

[Fiona O'Donnell]

Does the Minister also support fishermen in identifying markets overseas? For instance, there is not much of an appetite for cuttlefish at home, but there is in other parts of the world.

[Richard Benyon]

Those who watched Monty Halls’s programme last night will have seen the export of fantastic-quality spider crabs, which we should be eating in this country. We have to develop more eclectic tastes, but that is a debate in itself and I want to press on.

I agree with the Select Committee that we need to get our measures right and proceed carefully in setting targets. However, that has to be done on a fishery-by-fishery basis. I am also mindful that if we equivocate, we could find a thousand reasons why we should not do anything about discards. I believe that the Commission is right, and there should be an absolutely clear determination to move as near to an elimination of discards as we possibly can. That is why we will not sign up to the French declaration next week and why we must go into the next stage of negotiations on discards as robustly as possible to achieve a solution.

The debate on the CFP objectives raises similar challenges in a variety of areas. On the achievement of maximum sustainable yield, for example, I agree that we have to be guided by the best available scientific advice, particularly about complex mixed fisheries, and do so in a credible way. That is why we want clear objectives that are linked to existing commitments and enable us to get the specifics right for each fishery through multi-annual plans. That requires an intelligent approach to getting scientific data and advice. We have some good examples in the UK of partnership working with the industry, and I agree that member states must be more accountable for delivering the data needed to manage fisheries effectively. I appreciate the words of the hon. Member for Brent North about the need to define what we mean by MSY. FMSY is a different target from others, so we must get that right.

The Select Committee is right to sound caution about the Commission’s proposal for transferrable fishing concessions. My hon. Friend the Member for Hastings and Rye (Amber Rudd) raised that matter with passion. Although I recognise the benefits that a market approach can bring, I want our fishing rights to be managed in an economically rational way, by decisions on the allocation of rights being left to member states. If it were run and organised at that level, we could achieve real results. In certain circumstances, groups of fishermen might invest in an increasing biomass and see the attraction of a transferable fishery concession, which would in turn benefit the marine environment. It is important to look at that, but we should do so with caution, as advised by the Committee’s report.

A number of hon. Members asked who owns quota. I do not want to break with the cross-party consensus of the debate, but I suggest that the hon. Member for East Lothian has a bit of a nerve criticising the Government. We must get a grip on this problem. My Department intends to produce a register of who owns quota. To do that, we are working with producer organisations, which hold much of that information. I am constantly told of celebrities and football clubs that are alleged to own quota, but I have never found evidence of it. As the fishing opportunity should sit with vessels, the situation becomes complicated.

[Sheryll Murray]

As I pointed out, people who have quota must have a vessel, or a dummy vessel that is held in a producer organisation. Quota can transfer between different producer organisations, but it is impossible for somebody to go out and buy fish quota without having a vessel.

--- Later in debate ---

[Richard Benyon]

The argument centres on who owns various companies, which makes things complicated, but my hon. Friend is, as always, absolutely right. The work we are doing to reform domestic management of English fisheries reflects those principles, but a lot has been said today on what we are trying to achieve. She knows more than anybody how important that is, but many hon. Members represent constituencies where there is a small inshore fleet.

A measure that has been raised in the debate—it is essentially independent from our reform measures—is my decision to give an opportunity to others to catch stocks that have been left unutilised for four consecutive years. I hope all hon. Members agree that where valuable fish quotas have been left unfished for four consecutive years, it is reasonable to look to give others the opportunity to catch them, so that we make the best of our national quota.

The Government’s reform measures are a response to our consultation in 2011. Many fishermen were uneasy at the prospect of the rapid introduction of an allocation system based on fixed quota allocations to the under-10 metre fleet. Therefore, we have since explored other ways in which we can give fishermen in that sector more control over their future fishing activity, and are seeking to establish voluntary pilots to set out the benefits and challenges of a more local approach to management.

To align those pilots as closely as practicable with the measures on which we consulted, in particular the proposed foundation quota, we are temporarily taking from producer organisations a percentage of quota allocations if they were increased at the December Council. That will apply only where vessels in the prospective pilots hold a track record of catching the increased quotas. Producer organisations will still benefit from having greater amounts of quota than last year, but they will have slightly less of an increase than they would otherwise have enjoyed.

There have been rumours regarding the suspension of all leasing and swapping by certain POs to the under-10 metre fleet in reaction to those proposals. I would be very disappointed if any PO looks to penalise other fishermen for circumstances that are not within their control and hurt their members financially. Should such attitudes and behaviours take place, it would not bode well for our wish to impart greater management and responsibility for fisheries to those who fish them. DEFRA officials are in close touch with colleagues at the Marine Management Organisation, who are monitoring the position and will be assessing likely impacts on the profitability of our fishing sectors should those rumours develop.

As I have said, I will be discussing the external dimension of the CFP at the Council meeting next week. I believe that the principles of the sustainable use of marine resources must apply in the same way outside EU waters as within. Proposals for agreements with third countries should be strengthened to ensure better value for money; integration on fisheries development projects; clauses on human rights; greater transparency to ensure appropriate spend of money and science to improve sustainability; and improved fisheries governance to ensure that the benefits of the agreements are delivered in reality. I think we are making progress on this, but there is more work to do.

The Committee questioned the links between Government advice on healthy eating and the sustainability of fish stocks. Current Department of Health advice suggests consuming two portions of fish per week, one of which should be oily. This level of consumption can readily be sustained if we manage our stocks effectively.

I fully support the motion. The failures of the CFP cannot be allowed to continue eroding the livelihoods of our fishermen and blighting the marine environment. This is why the current reform process is so important, and why I am committed to making sure we get the right policy during the discussions this year. That means a policy that allows member states to work together regionally to manage their fisheries more effectively, and a policy underpinned by better scientific knowledge of what is happening in our marine ecosystems.

On a point raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Lancaster and Fleetwood (Eric Ollerenshaw), I am proud to be the UK fisheries Minister. It is important that I represent a noble industry, one that I wish to see revived, but if I restricted my actions to the management of fisheries, in a myopic, silo way, I would be letting down fishermen and all who care about the marine environment. So my hon. Friend is right: we should take a holistic view in our policies on fisheries, our marine policies and the reform of the common fisheries policy.