Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill

Danny Kruger Excerpts

2nd reading
Friday 29th November 2024 Commons Chamber

[Danny Kruger (East Wiltshire) (Con)]

I think you indicated that I could speak for a little longer than eight minutes, Mr Speaker.

[Mr Speaker]

Yes.

[Danny Kruger]

Thank you very much. I do not want to have too much grumbling at the eight-minute moment. I will take my 15 minutes, with time for interventions.

I start by paying tribute to the hon. Member for Spen Valley (Kim Leadbeater) for her very powerful speech and the way in which she has led this campaign—with great respect, sensitivity and, to use a contested word, dignity. She and I knew each other before we were MPs, when we both worked in the charity sector. I like and admire her greatly, and I know that we have more in common than might appear today.

All of us in this House have this in common: we all share a deep concern about the experience of people dying or fearing death, pain and suffering. I bear heavily on my conscience the people whose lives will be prolonged beyond their wishes if I get my way and this Bill is defeated today. I will not disregard those people or minimise their anxiety. We will hear those voices in today’s debate—we have heard many of them already—speaking through hon. Members in what I know will be very moving speeches.

If I voted for this Bill, I would have on my conscience many more people whose voices we cannot hear—the people who would be vulnerable as a consequence of the huge changes that this Bill would introduce in our society and in the NHS. My view is that if we get our broken palliative care system right and our wonderful hospices properly funded, we can do so much more for all the people who we will hear about today, using modern pain relief and therapies to help everybody die with a minimum of suffering when the time comes. We will not be able to do that if we introduce this new option; instead, we will expose many more people to harm.

I will go through the Bill in a moment, but first I will say a word about process, in response to the points made by the hon. Member for Spen Valley. This Bill is simply too big for the time that it has been given, and I implore hon. Members not to hide behind the fiction that it can be amended substantially in Committee and in its later stages. The remaining stages of a private Member’s Bill are for minor tweaks, not the kind of wholesale restructuring that we would need if we were ever to make this Bill safe. Members who vote for the Bill today must be prepared to see it become law largely unamended. I suggest that if they have any doubts, the only responsible choice is to vote no, and let the advocates of assisted dying bring back a better Bill at another time.

[Alistair Strathern (Hitchin) (Lab)]

I deeply appreciate the respectful way in which the hon. Gentleman is making his point, but I stand before him not sure of how any colleague in this Chamber cannot have doubts whichever way they are voting today. It feels like there are two necessary harms that we are all forced to weigh up. If the hon. Gentleman is so certain that doubt should push people one way, I am deeply intrigued to hear why that is, when it is very clear that many people will continue to suffer unnecessarily if we reject this Bill.

[Danny Kruger]

I recognise that there are very many doubts on each side, and I fully respect the arguments that have been made by the hon. Member for Spen Valley. Of course this is a finely balanced debate, but the point about process is that this Bill is too flawed; there is too much to do to it to address in Committee. By all means, let us have this debate, but let us have that before a Bill of this magnitude is brought forward, The consideration of the Bill should be much more comprehensive.

[Andrew George (St Ives) (LD)]

Contrary to what the media are saying, today’s decision is not about bringing this Bill into law; it is about allowing it to go to the next stage. People may have misgivings, but the hon. Gentleman is making the assumption that the Bill cannot be corrected or amended in order to make it palatable to people who have doubts. We all have doubts, but surely today’s vote is simply to let it go to the next stage. The final decision on Third Reading is the critical one in deciding whether the Bill goes into law.

[Danny Kruger]

I think I have made the point that this Bill is too comprehensive and there is too much in it to address through the process of a private Member’s Bill. If the hon. Gentleman has serious concerns about aspects of the Bill that he would not be prepared to see come into law, he should not be supporting it today.

Let me explain the concerns about the Bill that I think are too comprehensive to be dealt with in Committee. I recognise how hard the hon. Member for Spen Valley has worked to try to ensure that it is safe, but I do not believe it is, for the following reasons. Let us start at the beginning. The process starts with a conversation between a patient and a medical practitioner—not necessarily a doctor; just a medic of some sort, unspecified at this stage. If the patient tells their ordinary family doctor that they want an assisted death, the doctor is obliged to either explain how it works or pass them on to someone who will do it—which is probably what will happen, by the way. The likelihood is that we would see a new branch of medicine spring up, like the medics I met in Canada.

[Kevin McKenna]

Will the hon. Member give way?

[Danny Kruger]

I will in a moment.

These medics I met in Canada are specialists in assisted death and personally kill hundreds of patients a year in their special clinics. [Interruption.] If hon. Members have difficulty with the language, then I wonder what they are doing here. This is what we are talking about. I met doctors for whom this is their profession and their job, and they are proud to do it.

[Lewis Atkinson (Sunderland Central) (Lab)]

Will the hon. Member give way?

[Danny Kruger]

I will give way to the other hon. Gentleman.

[Kevin McKenna]

I want to be very clear that “medical practitioner” is a synonym for doctor—not nurse, pharmacist, dentist or any other practitioner. To be a doctor is to be a practitioner of medicine. We need to be very clear on this. There is lots of law and regulation on this, and I believe that what the hon. Member said is incorrect.

[Danny Kruger]

What the Bill actually says is that a doctor means

“a registered medical practitioner…who has such training, qualifications and experience as the Secretary of State may specify by regulations”.

Obviously they are some sort of regulated medic—I recognise that—but they are not necessarily a doctor. We will find out. I recognise that they will have professional qualifications, but it is not clear what those are going to be because it is not in the Bill.

[Gavin Robinson (Belfast East) (DUP)]

I commend the hon. Gentleman for the way in which he is engaging in this discussion, in the same spirit as the hon. Member for Spen Valley (Kim Leadbeater). We often hear that one of the safeguards associated with the Bill is that medical practitioners would be involved and that a diagnosis of a terminal illness, with six months or less to live, would be required. Does the hon. Gentleman accept that medicine is not an exact science? It is the science of uncertainty blended with the art of probability. There is no exactitude in this. No court will second-guess medical opinion; it will simply look at process.

[Danny Kruger]

I entirely agree with the right hon. Gentleman; he is absolutely right. I am afraid that the definition of terminal illness is in a sense the essential flaw in the Bill, but I will come on to that.

Going back to the conversation that the patient has with the medical practitioner, the crucial point is that the conversation does not need to be started by the patient, according to the Bill. It could be started by the medic—any medic—perhaps in hospital, who could make the suggestion of an assisted death to a patient who has never raised the issue themselves, whose family have never suggested it and whose own doctor does not think it is the right thing to do. And so the idea is planted.

Then, for whatever reason—and, by the way, there is no need ever to give a reason—the patient says that they want to proceed with an assisted death. They sign a declaration, or rather somebody else can sign it for them. It could be any professional, someone they do not know—maybe a new medical practitioner. A total stranger can do all the paperwork on their behalf. That is what the clause about the proxy entails. Then these two medical practitioners make their assessment.

[Paula Barker (Liverpool Wavertree) (Lab)]

I urge the hon. Member to check the wording of the Bill, because if somebody signs as a proxy, they have to have known the individual for two years, and would simply be signing to say that they agree with the patient who wishes to go forward with assisted dying.

[Danny Kruger]

I do not have time to check the Bill now, but from my memory it refers to someone who has known the patient for two years or someone of good standing in the community, which could be some sort of professional who is not known to them at all. Someone can quickly check the Bill, but my understanding is that it could be a total stranger to them.

[Jim Allister (North Antrim) (TUV)]

Is the matter not very clear? Clause 15(5) states:

“In this section “proxy” means—

(a) a person who has known the person making the declaration personally for at least 2 years, or

(b) a person who is of good standing in the community.”

So there is no protection such as that which is pretended by the supporters of the Bill.

[Danny Kruger]

I am grateful for that intervention.

The assessments have to determine whether the patient is terminally ill, whether they have mental capacity to make the decision, and then whether they have been coerced or pressured into the decision. In many ways the whole issue turns on the question of whether someone is terminally ill. I am afraid that it is a term of great elasticity, almost to the point of meaninglessness. It is well known, as the right hon. Member for Belfast East (Gavin Robinson) said earlier, that it is impossible for doctors to predict with any accuracy that somebody will die within six months. It is a purely subjective judgment, made in this case by a doctor whose job will be approving assisted deaths. They simply have to determine not whether it is reasonably certain that death will occur, but that it can be reasonably expected—in other words, that it is possible.

[Simon Hoare]

The thrust of the Bill, as I understand it, is to ease suffering and pain in a patient who has a diagnosis and will die of the condition that has been diagnosed. But that right could only be exercised within a six-month period, and the pain and discomfort could last a lot longer than that. Has my hon. Friend heard—because I have not—what the importance of six months is? Why not eight, 10 or 12? What would stop people challenging it on the grounds that the dam has been breached, the six months is entirely arbitrary and it could, and indeed should, be extended by negative resolution in a statutory instrument?

[Danny Kruger]

My hon. Friend makes the right point, and I am afraid to say that is absolutely the case. The six-month cut-off is completely arbitrary and impossible to determine. It is a line in the sand, and of course it could be challenged, as so much of the Bill could be challenged, on human rights grounds. Every one of the safeguards that has been introduced by the hon. Member for Spen Valley would in fact be a barrier and a discrimination against the new human right that has been awarded to one group but should of course be awarded to all—if the point is conceded in this way.

[Melanie Ward]

Earlier this week, colleagues and I met two eminent doctors who were former presidents of the Association for Palliative Medicine, and they raised serious concerns about the Bill, including that the doctor or medical practitioner who makes the assessment need never have met the person they are assessing, or been involved in their care at all. What does the hon. Gentleman make of that?

[Danny Kruger]

The hon. Lady makes a very important point. I will not get into the question of public opinion and the polling, because it is so contested, but there is clear evidence that the doctors who work with the dying—the palliative care professionals—are opposed to a change in the law by a great majority. They see the damage that it would do to the palliative care profession and services, and they see the danger for vulnerable patients.

[Wera Hobhouse]

I appreciate that the hon. Gentleman talks to us as a medical professional and we need to listen to his views. But is it not true that any medical assessment is an approximation; something that cannot be said for certain? For this decision too, we cannot be 100% certain, but that is life. We cannot make legislation that is 100% good because at some point we have to make a decision, on balance, whether something has merit or not. For that reason, we should vote for the Bill.

[Danny Kruger]

I am grateful to the hon. Lady, especially for promoting me to the status of doctor; I am actually a charity worker and political hack by background. It is good of her to credit me with those skills—perhaps I should set myself up as a medical practitioner. She is right that medics and indeed judges have to make difficult judgments all the time. I think it would be very dangerous and inappropriate to give them the power to do so in this case.

The whole question of the six-month cut-off is very important. I acknowledge all the points that have been made, but there is another problem with the definition of terminal illness. Almost anybody with a serious illness or disability could fit the definition. I recognise that these are not the cases that the hon. Member for Spen Valley has in mind—of course they are not—but that is the problem with the Bill. All that someone needs to do to qualify for an assisted death—for the definition of terminal illness—is refuse treatment, such as insulin if the person is diabetic. In the case of eating disorders, a topic on which I have worked with the hon. Member for Bath (Wera Hobhouse), a person just needs to refuse food. The evidence from jurisdictions around the world, and our own jurisprudence, shows that that would be enough to qualify someone for an assisted death.

[Lewis Atkinson]

Does the hon. Gentleman accept that every day in the NHS patients refuse treatment, and indeed food, and that there is currently legal oversight in respect of coercion and other such matters? Would the Bill not strengthen protections in those areas?

--- Later in debate ---

[Danny Kruger]

I am perplexed by that argument. The suggestion that there may be coercion—of course there will be—and abuse, and all sorts of injustices that take place in the current system, does not strike me as an argument for regulating and licensing assisted suicide. If we have concerns about practice in the NHS, let us deal with that. Let us not license suicide—and, by the way, evidence from around the world shows that that increases suicide in the general population. Suicide is contagious. For instance, Oregon is often pointed to as an example. The incidence of suicide, outside assisted suicide laws, has risen by a third there since it was legalised. There would be enormous contagious effects were we to regulate and license it in this way.

[Richard Tice (Boston and Skegness) (Reform)]

The hon. Gentleman is making an excellent case for the Bill to be passed today. What he is actually saying is that there are specifics that require debate, analysis and discussion in great detail in Committee—that is the whole point of it. If it is not dealt with properly in Committee, it will not pass Third Reading. He is suggesting that because he does not like those specifics, we cannot discuss the Bill in any detail.

[Danny Kruger]

I am sure that the hon. Member for Spen Valley is delighted to have the support of the hon. Gentleman. I refer him to the point that I was making: this is an inappropriate process.

[Sir John Hayes (South Holland and The Deepings) (Con)]

My hon. Friend is making a superb speech, as I expected him to do. On the issue of process, I say this to the hon. Member for Boston and Skegness (Richard Tice), my constituency neighbour: as he will know, I have introduced some very serious Bills, including the one that became the Investigatory Powers Act 2016. It was preceded by three independent reports and pre-legislative cross-party scrutiny by both Houses, which happened before the Committee stage. The point is that that process should take place before Second Reading, not after.

[Danny Kruger]

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend. I will now run through the process before taking any more interventions.

As I have explained, pretty much anybody with a serious illness or disability could work out how to qualify for an assisted death under the Bill. Members may think that far-fetched, but it is what happens everywhere that assisted suicide is legal, including in Oregon.

[Cat Eccles (Stourbridge) (Lab)]

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. The hon. Gentleman is using incorrect language. It is not suicide. That is offensive. I ask him please to correct his language.

[Mr Speaker]

That is not a point of order.

[Danny Kruger]

I am sorry if offence is given, but the fact is that the value of having a Bill in black and white is seeing what the law really is. What the Bill would do is amend the Suicide Act 1961. It would allow people to assist with a suicide for the first time. I respect the hon. Lady’s concern, but I am afraid we do need to use the proper language here.

The Bill’s scope is very broad. Members who think that assisted suicide for people with anorexia or other conditions that would not be regarded as terminal could not happen here should consider the young people in the UK today who are given a diagnosis of terminal anorexia and put on a palliative care pathway—essentially, assigned to death. Of course these are extreme cases—

[Wera Hobhouse]

rose—

[Danny Kruger]

I am not going to give way again.

There are a great many of these cases, I am afraid, and I mention them to show how wide open the Bill is. [Interruption.]

[Mr Speaker]

Order. May I ask the hon. Member for Bath (Wera Hobhouse) to keep a little calmer? She has intervened twice already, and plenty of other Members who also need to be heard.

[Danny Kruger]

I think particularly of disabled people, many of whom require constant treatment to stay alive. All, immediately and by definition, will be eligible under the terms of the Bill for a state-sponsored death. I refer Members to the Equality and Human Rights Commission, which has made the point that the line between disability and terminal illness is very blurred. That is why the Bill’s title is, in fact, so dangerous.

[Mary Kelly Foy (City of Durham) (Lab)]

rose—

[Danny Kruger]

I will make a little progress.

The second question that medical practitioners have to answer is about mental capacity, and here again is a great vagueness. How do they judge if someone is in their right mind when they are asking for help to kill themselves? The Bill says that the definition of capacity is based on the Mental Capacity Act 2005, but that Act is deliberately expansive. It explicitly assumes capacity in the patient, so having acute depression is no bar to being judged to have capacity under the Act. Being suicidal is no bar under the Act, so the capacity test is no bar at all.

Finally, there is the question of coercion. Is the patient asking for an assisted death because of pressure from someone else? There are two glaring problems here. The first is that the process does not even attempt to answer the question properly. There is no investigation, no requirement for medics to interview friends and family, and no need for a psychiatrist or family doctor to be consulted. The medics just need to satisfy themselves—who knows how?—that, to the best of their knowledge, the person has not been pressured.

The second problem with the coercion test is that it focuses on only one type of coercion—the less likely type. The bigger danger is not other people pressuring someone to do this; it is that they pressure themselves—hon. Members have made this point. The Bill has nothing to say on that. Internal pressure is absolutely fine. If you feel worthless or a burden to others, if the NHS will not offer you the treatment you need, if the local authority will not make the adjustments you need to your home, if you have to wait too long for a hospital appointment, or if you want to die because you think the system has failed you, that is absolutely fine.

[Several hon. Members rose—]

[Danny Kruger]

I will get to the end of my speech.

That is the medical stage, and I will jump straight to the judicial stage. The medical practitioners sign it off, and then the judge has to confirm all the same tests. Of course, many eminent judges have made the point that it will overwhelm the family courts if the test were applied properly, but it will not be applied properly, because the Bill assumes that judges will fulfil a new inquisitorial role and actually look into cases as investigators, which is entirely unknown in English common law. But the Bill will not require any actual investigation.

There is no requirement for a judge even to meet the applicant. They simply have to have a phone call, or maybe it will be an email, from one of the medics. That is it. That is the inquiry. On that basis, the judge must decide whether it is more likely than not that there has been external pressure. After the judge approves it—they are required to approve it, unless they can find evidence of external coercion—we go to “the final act”, as the Bill says, where a junior colleague, as a medical practitioner, oversees your death by pills or lethal injection.

And here is the last thing that the Bill does or does not do. There is no requirement at any stage of the process—at either the medical or the judicial stage—for anyone to tell the patient’s next of kin, their wider family or even their GP that the NHS and the judicial system are working in secret to bring about the death of their loved one, maybe their father or their daughter. I say again that these are not the cases that the Bill was designed for, but they are directly in scope, and it is going to take more than a tweak in Committee to get them out.

Is this what is meant by having choice at the end of life? Let us talk about choice. I am often accused of wanting to impose my view on others—that point was made earlier. People say, “If you don’t approve of assisted death, don’t have one, but don’t deprive me of the choice.” In fact, the evidence is that, with this new option and the comparative loss of investment and innovation in palliative care, real choice will narrow. There is a broader point to make about choice, which is that no man or woman is an island. Just as every person’s death, even a good death, diminishes us all, so we will all be involved and affected if we make this change.

The Bill will not just create a new option for a few and leave everyone else unaffected; it will impose this new reality on every person towards the end of their life, on everyone who could be thought to be near death, and on their families—the option of assisted suicide, the obligation to have a conversation around the bedside or whispered in the corridor, “Is it time?” It will change life and death for everyone.

I am very aware of the terrible plight of the people who are begging us for this new law. I think we can do better for them than they fear, but we also need to think in real human terms about what the effect will be on the choices of other people, and I do not mean the people who are used to getting their way. I am talking about the people who lack agency, the people who know what it is to be excluded from power and to have decisions made for them by bigwigs in distant offices who speak a language they do not understand—the sort of people who the hon. Member for Spen Valley and I both know from our previous charity work, and who we all know from our constituency work. They are not the people who write to us campaigning for a change in the law, but the people who come to our surgeries with their lives in tatters, or who the police or social workers tell us about—the people with complex needs. What are the safeguards for them?

Let me tell the House: we are the safeguard—this place; this Parliament; you and me. We are the people who protect the most vulnerable in society from harm, yet we stand on the brink of abandoning that role. The Rubicon was a very small stream, but on the other side lies a very different world—a worse world, with a very different idea of human value. The idea that our individual worth lies in our utility, valuable only for so long as we are useful—not a burden, not a cost, not making a mess. Let us not be the Parliament that authorises that idea.

I mentioned at the start of my speech the voices of those we cannot hear: the frail and elderly and the disabled. As we are surrounded by such a cloud of witnesses, let us do better than this Bill. Let today be not a vote for despair, but the start of a proper debate about dying well, in which we have a better idea than a state suicide service. Let us have a debate in which we remember that we have intrinsic value; that real choice and autonomy means having access to the best care possible and the fullest control over what happens to us while we live; and that true dignity consists in being cared for to the end.

[Several hon. Members rose—]

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (First sitting)

Danny Kruger Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 21st January 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Kim Leadbeater (Spen Valley) (Lab)]

I beg to move,

That the Committee do sit in private to consider matters relating to the sittings motion.

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Roger, and to be here for the first formal meeting of the Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill Committee. Ahead of the oral evidence sessions next week and the line-by-line scrutiny thereafter, we have two jobs to do this afternoon. One is to confirm the sitting times for the Committee and the other is to confirm the witnesses for oral evidence. Following discussions, I have taken the decision to have some of our sitting today in private. That is normal procedure for discussing witnesses and I think it is the right way to proceed, given that some of those discussions will probably involve conversations about the suitability of witnesses who are not here to speak for themselves. It would be inappropriate to discuss named individuals in such a way. Transparency is of course very important, but so is respecting individuals’ privacy. I hope that is clear to colleagues and to others.

I appreciate that members of the Committee and those viewing our proceedings may wish to know about the purpose and effect of this motion. Most Public Bill Committees are subject to programming, and the Programming Sub-Committee would discuss in private which witnesses to hear from. Similarly, Select Committees discuss in private which witnesses they will hear evidence from. Out of respect for the named individuals that we may call to hear evidence from, I propose that we discuss them informally in private. Once that informal discussion has concluded, the Committee will move back into a public session to formally consider the sittings motion. Any Member who wished to speak about the motion publicly or move an amendment would then be able to do so.

[Danny Kruger (East Wiltshire) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Roger. I look forward very much to the process of this Committee and to working with hon. Members to do what we can to ensure that a good Bill is presented back to the House.

I very much respect the points made by the hon. Member for Spen Valley. Nevertheless, I do have some real objections to the motion, which I encourage Members to oppose. The fact is that this debate was due to be held in public—in fact, people have travelled here in the expectation that they would be able to attend and observe our debate on the sittings motion—but last night, for reasons we do not fully understand, a decision was clearly made to table a motion that we sit in private. I would be grateful to understand why that decision was made so late.

My general point is that there is a clear public interest case. The public should understand why witnesses have been chosen and why other people have not, and if there are concerns about the witnesses, they should be aired publicly. This is the only time that the public are being consulted—that experts from outside Parliament have a chance to contribute to our deliberations. I fail to understand why those discussions cannot be held in public. The only argument that I can imagine—and the hon. Member for Spen Valley made it—is that Members might for some reason be uncivil or speak disrespectfully about potential witnesses, which I do not for a moment believe. I am sure that you, Sir Roger, or the other Chairs will keep us in order throughout our proceedings.

We are here to talk about the overall balance and particular qualifications of the witness list. Looking at the witness list that was presented this morning by the hon. Lady, I have very serious concerns, which should be aired publicly, about the list. It includes eight witnesses from foreign jurisdictions, who are being called to give evidence from abroad; all are supporters of assisted dying in their jurisdictions. There are no people speaking against the operations of assisted dying laws internationally. There are nine lawyers on the list—all of them, with the exception of three who appear to be neutral, in favour of a change in the law. There is not a single lawyer against this Bill. Sir James Munby was suggested, but I understand he has been removed. There might be a perfectly good reason for that, but he has spoken against the Bill.

There is nobody on the list from deaf or disabled people’s organisations, but the UN convention on the rights of persons with disabilities recognises the importance of engaging with such organisations in laws of this nature. With the exception of Dr Jamilla Hussain, there is no one on the witness list who can speak to the equality impacts of assisted dying.

[Dr Simon Opher (Stroud) (Lab)]

rose—

[The Chair]

Order. I appreciate that the hon. Member for East Wiltshire, and indeed all members of the Committee, received the final version of these documents fairly late in the day, and I am not unsympathetic to hearing what any Member wishes to say, but now the hon. Gentleman is going rather further down the brief than he is probably entitled to. The motion on the amendment paper is very narrow. The Question is, quite simply, that the Committee should sit in private.

[Danny Kruger]

I understand, Sir Roger, and I accept your reprimand. I was trying to make the case that it should be acceptable for these arguments to be heard in public, but I take your point.

Let me address the specifics of the motion that we sit in private. The point has been made that it is appropriate and, in fact, common for Committees to consider sittings motions privately. In fact, Public Bill Committees that consider private Members’ Bills do not sit in private to consider a sittings motion. That should be the starting point. Members may claim—I think the hon. Member for Spen Valley did—that sitting in private is like a Programming Sub-Committee on a Government Bill, but it is not. Government Bills have a sittings motion that is agreed in the usual channels, between the Whips of each side, and often that does happen privately. The way it works then is that both sides suggest witnesses and agree to them. Those decisions then go to the Programming Sub-Committee, which usually takes a couple of minutes to rubber-stamp them. Then, crucially, the sittings motion goes to the whole Committee, which has the opportunity to discuss what was decided in the Programming Sub-Committee. That is the opportunity for public consideration of the schedule of witnesses in a Government Bill, as set out by the Programming Sub-Committee.

It has also been suggested that the proposal to sit in private today is rather like the private pre-meet that happens before particular evidence sessions, which I am sure we will do when we proceed to take evidence; we will have little private meetings to discuss which Members go in which order and who will ask each question. I fully accept that that is perfectly appropriate for a private discussion, but that is not what this sitting is. Today, we are discussing exactly who we are going to call and the overall timetable for our work. This is much bigger than a discussion about who is going to ask which questions. It is about who the witnesses are going to be.

In the very limited number of private Members’ Bills since 2010 that have had a large number—five or more—sittings, the sittings motions were debated in public. That is the way it works. I could list a whole load, but I will not bother the Committee with that detail. The fact is that we have had no discussion through the usual channels; there are no usual channels in a private Member’s Bill. Everybody in the Committee was invited to submit suggestions to the hon. Member for Spen Valley, which we all did, and we appreciated that invitation. She then made her choice. There was no discussion about who the witnesses should be. It was just a decision made by the hon. Member.

A list was informally communicated last week, which we also appreciated, although it was different from the list before us now. We did not have full advance notice of this list, which we only received at 10 o’clock this morning. It was not tabled in advance and was not on the amendment paper, so we had no opportunity to prepare amendments to the schedule of witnesses or to the timetable that we are discussing. We can table manuscript amendments—and that needs to happen—but the situation still procedurally disadvantages those of us who have concerns about the Bill. Last night, I and colleagues tabled a sittings motion, which I hope we will have the opportunity to debate, in the absence of one from the hon. Member for Spen Valley.

I am afraid that this issue reflects a general concern I have about the process, which is why it is so important that we debate the witness list before a public audience.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Chair]

Order.

[Danny Kruger]

I look forward to the opportunity to discuss the sittings motion, which I hope we can do publicly. On a general point about process, the Bill was written by a campaign group.

[Kim Leadbeater]

That is not true.

[Danny Kruger]

Well, it had a significant input.

[Kim Leadbeater]

On a point of order, Sir Roger. That is categorically not true. The Bill was written with senior legislative expertise, along with myself as a sitting Member of Parliament and with esteemed colleagues. I take that point of offence quite personally.

[Danny Kruger]

Well, I hope that the hon. Member—

[The Chair]

Order. A point of order has been raised; I had better reply to it—if only to say that it is not a matter for the Chair.

[Danny Kruger]

I apologise, Sir Roger, and I apologise to the hon. Lady for causing offence. I hope she will not be offended when points are made that she disagrees with.

[Kim Leadbeater]

It is a matter of fact.

[Danny Kruger]

I am happy to withdraw the suggestion that the Bill was written by a campaign group, on the basis of the hon. Lady’s assurance that it was written by herself. I hope it is not the case that there was significant input from campaigners. I do not see why there should not have been; I just mention it because the Bill came to us with no formal consultation. There was no impact assessment—

[Kim Leadbeater]

On a point of order, Sir Roger. Surely we are having a conversation about whether we sit in private or not. Can we keep to that matter?

[The Chair]

Forgive me: I am in the Chair and I will decide—but the hon. Lady is absolutely correct. Once again, I am afraid that the hon. Member for East Wiltshire is straying very wide of the motion on the amendment paper. I would be grateful if he would now come to his conclusion so we can start to move forward.

[Danny Kruger]

I absolutely will. In fact, I will finish there. The points I have been trying to make are simply in the light of the fact that if the hon. Lady’s motion is accepted, the public will no longer have the opportunity to hear any of our points on the sittings motion—on the process that we will be decide on.

[Kim Leadbeater]

On a point of order, Sir Roger. That, again, is factually incorrect. We have already said that there will be a private sitting for conversations about individual witnesses, including some that the hon. Gentleman has already started talking about, and then we will open again to the public so that everybody can hear the Committee’s conversations.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Chair]

Order. Once again, that is not strictly a matter for the Chair, so it is therefore not a point of order, although it is now a matter of record. We are going to spend quite a lot of time together and it would be helpful if, reflecting the tone of the debate that took place on the Floor of the House, we were civil and courteous to each other and that the debate was conducted throughout not only these proceedings, but right throughout the entire Committee stage, with customary candour and decency. If we can manage that, accepting that these are highly divisive issues and that strong feelings are held on both sides of the argument, we might just end up with a conclusion that would satisfy most, if not all, people.

[Danny Kruger]

I genuinely do not want to cause any distress or offence to the hon. Member for Spen Valley. I simply am doing my job, which is to represent my genuine concerns about the process that we are deciding on today. I think it is not appropriate to sit private, and I do not believe it is the case that we will have the opportunity to discuss in public the sittings motion. We are deciding that in private, according to her intention. There is not going to be the chance to debate publicly the list of witnesses or the timetable that we are to follow. So be it. If hon. Members in the Committee want to proceed down that line, that is what we will do. I look forward to that discussion, which I am sure we will have courteously, but I encourage hon. Members to vote against the motion.

[Lewis Atkinson (Sunderland Central) (Lab)]

I, like you, Sir Roger, hope that we can spend the next five or six weeks in the spirit of collaboration and that we do not get bogged down in procedural wrangling. We need to work across the Committee to get the best procedure we can.

The hon. Member for East Wiltshire made several points, including the precedent for private Members’ Bills. The relevant point here is that this private Member’s Bill is unique already by the fact that the lead Member, my hon. Friend the Member for Spen Valley, has agreed to take evidence—unlike in any other private Member’s Bill. Therefore, in some cases there may be a need to discuss the sensitivity of individual witnesses’ availability and personal circumstances. We cannot agree as a Committee just by calling witnesses in the abstract. We have to agree—as is outlined by my hon. Friend’s motion and indeed by the alternative motion in the name of the hon. Member for East Wiltshire—for them to attend at a specific time and at a specific place. I gently say to the hon. Gentleman that the Committee would do well to have a conversation in private about the individual availability and suitability of some witnesses.

The motion set out on the amendment paper to sit in private is to consider

“matters related to the sittings motion”,

not the sittings motion itself. My hon. Friend the Member for Spen Valley has clearly indicated that we will return to sit in public for the formal proceedings, which I support. That means that the hon. Member for East Wiltshire and any others who wish to place on record their observations can do so then. In the same way that the hon. Gentleman acknowledges happens in Select Committees and other forums where there is discussion about witnesses, how to call them and so on, I suggest that we spend a little bit of time in private to do so too, before agreeing—I hope with a level of consensus across this Committee—to return in public and to operate in public scrutiny as the hon. Gentleman suggests is appropriate.

I support the motion to sit in private for the consideration of these specific matters in initial discussion and then I support returning to public, as my hon. Friend the Member for Spen Valley has indicated, so that we can be subject to the right public scrutiny for the decisions that we make today.

--- Later in debate ---

[Naz Shah]

On amendment (b), given the issue we are considering, I think it is important that the Royal College of Psychiatrists is involved. One thing that is very important to me is the issue of coercion, and the royal college would be able to shed light on that. One of the many reasons advanced for giving the Bill its Second Reading was that we would have further debate, and the royal college would add value to that.

On amendment (c), Dr Ramona Coelho is a physician with well-founded concerns about the operation of the law in Canada. She is a member of the Ontario Medical Assistance in Dying Death Review Committee, and she gave evidence to the Scottish Parliament Committee that considered the Assisted Dying for Terminally Ill Adults (Scotland) Bill.

On amendment (d), Ellen Clifford is co-ordinator of the UK Deaf and Disabled People’s Monitoring Coalition, and she has a key role in advocating for people with disabilities.

[Danny Kruger]

I want to speak in support of the proposed addition of Ellen Clifford. Last week, she won a High Court case against the previous Government for their consultation on benefits reform, so she is no friend of my party, but she is a powerful advocate on behalf of disabled people, and she represents the deaf and disabled people’s organisations that are so important in informing the Government on the implementation of policy that affects disabled people. I recognise that the hon. Lady has included some representatives of the disabled community, but I suggest that there would be particular value in hearing from Ms Clifford because of her role as the co-ordinator of the monitoring coalition of all these deaf and disabled people’s organisations across the country. She is the best person to advise the Committee on the operation of the Bill.

[The Chair]

Order. Before we proceed any further, let me say that the hon. Gentleman was in order, because I allowed him to speak, but it would be unhelpful if we started to cherry-pick amendments while going through them. Let the hon. Member for Bradford West speak to them—they are being taken together—and then any hon. Member who wishes to comment on any or all of them will have the opportunity to do so. Otherwise, we will have a very piecemeal approach.

--- Later in debate ---

[Naz Shah]

Thank you, Sir Roger.

[Danny Kruger]

I want to make a general point in support of the hon. Lady’s suggestions.

[The Chair]

No, I am sorry. Please let the hon. Lady finish her speech.

--- Later in debate ---

[Kit Malthouse]

I will just finish, if I may. Our Bill is built on a very different legal framework from Canada’s. Drawing legislative parallels between the two seems like a cul-de-sac, not least because, as the hon. Lady will know, the legal framework in Canada is dictated by the charter of rights and freedoms, effectively a constitution, which has been used there to widen the scope of the law. Canada started from a very different place as well, so I am not totally convinced.

What the hon. Member for Spen Valley has tried to do with the list is to find overseas territories that are analogous to our own and have adopted a model similar to ours. We are therefore trying to learn lessons from the process of debate and legislative procedure that they went through—either to learn from them or to learn from their mistakes. For example, knocking out the Member of Parliament from Australia would be a mistake, not least because Australia has been through a number of iterations with its law. Most of Australia has a bar on doctor initiation of the conversation. The medical profession think that that is a big negative in Australia, as I understand it, so I would like to understand why, politically and in legislation, it was felt that that was needed or helpful, and why it was imposed.

On the other amendments, the hon. Member for Bradford West is making a value judgment about comparative expertise between Amanda Ward and whoever she wants to propose instead—Philip Murray. I do not know why she is making that value judgment, but as far as I can see, the names were properly submitted in the process. The hon. Lady obviously had the chance to submit names during the process. For better or worse, as she may see fit, the hon. Member for Spen Valley has come up with a list that is a compromise. That is not to say that the hon. Member for Bradford West cannot arrange briefings with any of these experts outside the formal process, for Members to attend should they so wish, or that she cannot seek advice from them during the process of the Bill.

My primary concern about the amendments is that we are opening up a whole area of debate where we could all have gone with our suggestions. I would rather stick with the list that we have, because I fear that the hon. Member for Bradford West is doubling up and making value judgments about expertise that are not necessarily warranted.

[Danny Kruger]

All the names that the hon. Member for Bradford West has suggested were indeed submitted, I believe, to the hon. Member for Spen Valley ahead of the deadline that she put to us at the end of last month.

[Kim Leadbeater]

On a point of order, Sir Roger. All those names were not submitted.

[Danny Kruger]

The hon. Lady can feel free to intervene on me without troubling the Chair. I stand corrected if that is the case. We only received the final list this morning. It was necessary to make alternative suggestions ahead of that, which was done. I am now supporting the hon. Member for Bradford West in making suggestions for slight adjustments, as she suggests is all that is appropriate at this point. The list is unbalanced. I had to do a very quick analysis, and of the almost 60 names that have been put to us, 38 of them are in favour of the Bill and the principle of assisted dying, whereas there are only 20 who are opposed. There is an inherent imbalance there. It is only a quick analysis that has been done, and we will be able to do more of that subsequent to this sitting, but that is my impression.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dr Opher]

The Bill as proposed is extremely similar to the Australian law, but it is not similar to Canadian law. Therefore, I do not see that bringing Canadian expertise into the Committee is of any use at all. I also back the right hon. Member for North West Hampshire when he said that in almost all situations we are just replacing one expert for another, so the only contentious bit is whether we have people from Australia in support of or against assisted dying.

A split of 38 to 20, with the other witnesses being neutral, is appropriate and actually reflects the vote in the House. I do not see that as a disadvantage. Are the witnesses really going to change what we are saying? We need to listen to them and learn from them, but having some of them against assisted dying is enough to give us due discipline and ensure we listen to exactly what the problems might be, so I disagree with the hon. Member for East Wiltshire.

[Danny Kruger]

Very quickly, let me say that 38 to 20—two to one—was not the split that happened on Second Reading. There was a much more finely balanced position in the House. I accept that the hon. Gentleman does not want to hear from Canada and I do not blame him—people who are in favour of the Bill are desperate to keep Canada out of it. Okay—let us look at Australia. There are many people in Australia—MPs included, if we could hear from politicians—who continue to profoundly oppose the Bill on the grounds that it is not working, it is dangerous and it is being expanded. Let us hear some alternative views if we are interested in foreign experience.

[Several hon. Members rose—]

--- Later in debate ---

[Danny Kruger]

I think Baroness Hale has been knocked off the list. Am I right? I do not think we are going to have the huge pleasure of hearing from Baroness Hale.

[Jake Richards]

Well, we have had lots of lists, but Lord Sumption and Lord Neuberger are giving evidence, I believe; Lord Sumption is, anyway. These things can be tested and challenged, so the notion that we need to have others is slightly absurd. We have the law lecturer from Cambridge University as well.

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Second sitting)

Danny Kruger Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 28th January 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Kit Malthouse]

Q In the run-up to Second Reading, we heard from some of the overseas experience that where there was effectively a gag clause on doctors, it was proving to be extremely difficult, and the medical profession felt that that was a big barrier to discharging its duties. Would you recognise that?

Dr Green: Indeed. I believe that in New Zealand—and I think in the state of Victoria, but I would need to check that—there have been official reviews that have identified those concerns, and they are looking to review the legislation.

[Danny Kruger (East Wiltshire) (Con)]

Q It is noteworthy that in Australia and New Zealand, palliative care professionals are very keen on retaining that safeguard, to ensure that it is not suggested to patients that they might have an assisted death unless they have brought it up themselves.

I would like a quick clarification from Dr Green. In terms of the survey, my understanding is that the British Medical Association’s official position is to be neutral. The majority in favour of neutrality—moving away from an opposed position—were junior doctors and those not working with the elderly and the dying, whereas the great majority of doctors who work in palliative care and work with dying people remain firmly opposed to a change in the law. Is that your understanding?

Dr Green: There were some variations between specialities; that is true, but within all specialities, there was a wide variety of opinion. It is that wide variety of opinion that the BMA has based its policy on.

[Danny Kruger]

Q I understand—thank you.

I have a question for you, Dr Green, on the delivery of the service if it is brought into law. Is it your understanding that the Bill mandates the NHS to provide an assisted dying service? I appreciate that it is not clear in the Bill. Nevertheless, it does authorise the Government to pay for it and it establishes this right. My question to you is this: is this a medical procedure that we are proposing to legalise, and should the NHS provide it? If the answer is yes, should that be a separate service within the NHS or should it just be part of general practice?

Dr Green: We have not taken a view as to whether it should be inside or outside the NHS. That is not for us to take. We do believe that it should not be any part of any doctor’s normal job to provide assisted dying. In other words, it should be set up through a separate service with a degree of separation.

We believe that is important for patients, because it would reassure patients who may be anxious about the service that it would not just be part of their normal care. It would reassure patients that the service they were going into had proper quality and proper audit attached to it. It would reassure doctors, because doctors who did not want to have any part would not feel that it was part of their normal job, whereas the doctors who wanted to go ahead would be assured of having support, emotional support and proper training. Also, it should, hopefully, reassure the providers, who would then be assured that it would not be expected of them just as part of their normal duty. We believe a degree of separation is very important.

[Danny Kruger]

Q What are the implications for resources? I appreciate that that is your view, and I recognise that it makes very good sense. Are you concerned about the resourcing of that service, in terms of whether there might be implications for other parts of the NHS if it was to be a separate service?

Dr Green: I think we are always concerned about resourcing, and I can only back up what Dr Whitty said about the importance of palliative care.

[Danny Kruger]

Q Mark, I have a question about the end, or “the final act” as I think it is called in the Bill. Do you think there needs to be more specific guidance in the Bill about what should happen in the case of complications—if the death is taking a long time? It can take up to an hour quite commonly in other countries. There may be complications. Again, that happens. What would happen if a doctor were to intervene to genuinely assist the patient to die, if something was going wrong? Are you worried about the legal implications for doctors in those circumstances?

Mark Swindells: I would agree with you that there certainly needs to be really clear guidance for doctors on that scenario. We have not taken a view on whether that needs to be in the Bill, in regulation or in the statutory code of practice. What I would say is that we would be willing to participate in the setting of that. It would be very important to listen to the view of doctors and indeed patients who might be interested in taking such a course of action, to understand their issues.

[Danny Kruger]

Q Very quickly on that last point, it is not totally clear what kind of medical professional would be in attendance at the end. Do you think it should be a fully trained doctor? Should there be some separate professional in that role? How should that work?

Mark Swindells: I am not trying to duck the question, but because we do not take a general view on whether the Bill should pass or not, we have not taken an established view on the delivery mechanism for it.

[Lewis Atkinson]

Q I want to cover two areas. I will start with the current law. I am interested in the position that doctors are currently in, both regulatorily and around the current law. The Suicide Act 1961 and so on clearly prohibit this. A number of us have heard from families who have gone to Switzerland, and so on, and who have returned and had a conversation with their family doctor around the death of a loved one. There have been incidents in which people have attempted to take their own lives, given that there is no current assisted dying provision. Could you say a little about the dilemmas facing doctors on the current law as it stands?

Mark Swindells: We do get inquiries from doctors who are concerned that they are doing the right thing when it might become apparent to them that a patient wants to travel overseas to access assisted dying. We have taken legal advice, and on that basis, we guide doctors that it is permissible for them to provide the existing medical records to that patient, as you might under a subject access request, but to be really cautious about going any further in terms of recommending that or assisting the process more than that. That is based on our understanding of the existing law in the Suicide Act.

Dr Green: Of course, that leads to a further issue. As we heard from Dr Whitty today, this measure may progress at a different speed in Scotland and England and Wales. We also have the Crown dependencies, which are some way further ahead than the mainland Governments on it. That raises an issue for doctors who work in England and Wales but treat patients in the Crown dependencies. We would want clarity about the legal situation regarding a doctor in Liverpool who is treating a patient in the Isle of Man, should the law allow assisted dying in the Isle of Man.

--- Later in debate ---

[Kit Malthouse]

Q Professor, I want to test a little further the notion of a separate organisation that you mentioned. I can understand a separate discipline emerging, acquired by training, which is what happens in palliative care at the moment. We heard from previous witnesses that simplicity in safeguards is key, and in particular from the CMO that we have to avoid the last 6 months of someone’s life being a bureaucratic nightmare. At the moment, within palliative care and palliative nursing generally, you are already dealing with patients who are electing to refuse treatment, food and water, or are supporting patients following an advance directive. If you are supporting people in those circumstances as they move towards their death, do you think that it could be absorbed within the current functions, rather than having a separate organisation?

Professor Ranger: It is difficult. If I am honest, we have probably not explored that enough within our thinking as a college. We know what we would not want to see, which is a situation where there is an expectation that it becomes part of a pathway. It has got to be something you actively seek and opt into. I think how that is administered probably requires more thought, if I am honest, but I would not want to see it becoming an expectation of a pathway, because then the pressure on the individual may change. That is something we need to safeguard against.

I am worried that we should not make it so bureaucratic for the individual that it becomes impossible to have their autonomy respected, but how that happens is something that needs further exploration. We would fully support making it as clear and unbureaucratic for the person as humanly possible. But we would not want to see it as a sort of pathway within our current setting, because there could then be a sense that this is something that is externally influenced rather than being something that someone actively seeks for their autonomy.

[Danny Kruger]

Q You have done this very powerful report, the “Last Shift”, and talked about the moral injuries—a very powerful phrase—felt by nurses in the light of shortages in care in the NHS and social care. What should a nurse, or indeed any health professional, do in circumstances where a patient is requesting assisted dying and qualifies for it, when that professional thinks that what they really need is palliative care, but that is not available because of the shortages in the palliative care system?

Professor Ranger: It is difficult, but in my experience there are ways to try and get people palliative care, whether that is, as was said earlier, via other organisations outside the NHS and within hospice care. There are ways through the current routes to get people the care that they need.

[Danny Kruger]

Q Just to be clear, do you think it is possible for every patient who needs it to get the palliative care that they should have?

Professor Ranger: I do not think it is as good as it needs to be. We know that it is sometimes hard for people to access care. We know the struggles regarding hospices. We know far too many people die in hospital. We know there are real challenges in social care and the health service. I cannot say it is not without challenge.

[Danny Kruger]

Q So somebody could request assisted dying because of the absence of adequate palliative care.

Professor Ranger: When you put it like that, it could be possible, but we would want to strive to have a system that does not leave anyone in distress.

[Danny Kruger]

Q Indeed. Lastly, I am very interested in your suggestions about a separate service and about the importance of protecting the rights of professionals who do not want to be involved. I was very conscious of the plight of care home workers in the pandemic, and I regretted my vote to mandate the vaccine to them.

Do you think—I cannot decide for myself what the answer is—it should be possible for a care home director to exempt their whole service, that care home and the people who work in that care home, from being involved in assisted dying? That is where people live, after all. If somebody is having it there, it could affect the entire atmosphere of the place, and the work that all of the people there have to do. Do you think they should be protected as an organisation?

Professor Ranger: Particularly for nursing homes, I think that would be difficult. How and where people end their life probably needs further thought and further explanation. There is something about being really clear— if you are the leader of that nursing home, we would have to explore your ability to be able to advocate for the care that you want to be able to give in that nursing home. All of these practical things need further exploration.

It is difficult, because for someone who wants to end their life, if that is their home, they may want to be there. It is all of these practical things that probably need further thought and exploration, because I think it could be argued either way.

[The Chair]

Q We have about 40 seconds left, so I do not think we will get in another question. Glyn, do you want to add anything to any of the points?

Glyn Berry: I do not think so. I think that the last question around care homes was a really good one. I am already thinking about the implications for registrations with the Care Quality Commission and what that would mean in terms of the process and the protection of staff, residents and families. It is a really helpful question to think about.

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Third sitting)

Danny Kruger Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 28th January 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Dr Simon Opher (Stroud) (Lab)]

Q Thank you for all giving up your time, with your very high level of palliative care expertise and experience. I am a practising GP, and GPs and district nurses do a lot of palliative care with a lot of advice from you people. I have also noticed that, even with the absolute best quality palliative care, some people have still talked to me about an assisted death, or shortening their death. I would like to hear your comments. Is this more about autonomy than symptom control?

Dr Clarke: I absolutely agree that in a small number of cases, palliative care at the highest level cannot eradicate all suffering, and cannot prevent a person from wishing to end their life and have assistance in ending their life. That is absolutely the case; I would say that it happens surprisingly uncommonly, in my experience, but it does happen.

Autonomy is the crux of the issue for me, because autonomy is predicated on having meaningful choices. Can you actually choose option a or option b? Let us say that option a is high-quality not just palliative care, but medical care in general—district nursing care or social care, for example. If that is not available to you, you are potentially being pushed towards “choosing” option b—the route of assisted dying—not freely and not autonomously, but because option a has been denied to you by real-world failures. We all know about those real-world conditions—we are all familiar with the latest winter crisis, where patients have been dying on trolleys in corridors, etc—that are preventing the actual option of a death in which dignity, comfort and even moments of joy can be maintained right up until the end of life, when that patient is getting the high-quality palliative NHS and social care that they need.

That is the crux of the issue. If you do not have that as a real option for patients, we can say that they are choosing autonomously assisted dying, but actually society is coercing them into that so-called choice because it is not funding the care that makes them feel as though life is worth living. That is why I think many of my colleagues are so concerned about legal change now. It is not because of an opposition to assisted dying in principle. It is because the real-world conditions of the NHS today are such that people’s suffering means that occasionally they will beg me to end their life, and I know that that begging comes not from the cancer, for example, per se, but because they have been at home not getting any adequate pain relief. Once you start to provide proper palliative care, very often that changes.

[Danny Kruger (East Wiltshire) (Con)]

Q I will ask you one quick question, Dr Cox. Dr Clarke said that the capacity assessment was poorly conducted. Do you think that the threshold is appropriate, using the Mental Capacity Act 2005? Assuming that we could conduct these assessments adequately, do you think that the threshold is safe?

Dr Cox: I and my colleagues have concerns about the safeguards in the Bill. It is not just the capacity assessment; we also acknowledge that prognosis is incredibly difficult to assess accurately. I would say that you cannot always identify coercion. You can identify it when it is very obvious and extreme, but when it is very subtle, we cannot always identify it. After the event, there is nobody to tell us about coercion, so it is very difficult to monitor.

The other thing that concerns me is that we are putting all these assessments on the shoulders of two doctors individually, followed up by a High Court judge. In any other clinical practice, when we are making very serious decisions, we know that shared decisions are much better quality, much more robust and much safer. In clinical practice, we make all these decisions in multi-professional teams. I would never make these decisions independently of my team, because the perspective they bring can help me to understand things that I am not seeing.

The thing that I am really concerned about is how it is possible for these doctors, even with training, to have a good understanding of all illnesses in order that they can identify prognosis—neurological, cancer and every other. How is it possible for them to really understand capacity when capacity is not an absolute; it does change and it is very complex to assess? How is it possible for them to see all cases of coercion, which can be invisible?

In addition to that, are those doctors going to be looking out for opportunities to refer to palliative care when they see somebody who has suffering that could be addressed and may change their mind? Are they looking out for untreated depression? We know that treatment of depression can result in people changing their minds about wanting to die. It is a lot to ask these individual doctors to do, and that really concerns me.

[Kit Malthouse (North West Hampshire) (Con)]

Q I want to pursue that point a little with you, Dr Cox. My understanding is that your profession is already taking these decisions, or supporting patients to take these decisions—for example, the withdrawal of ventilation for an MND patient towards the end, or if I decide to decline treatment or food and water to end my life as quickly as I can. Presumably, you already have guidelines or training about assessing coercion and capacity in those circumstances. I think in some—for example, advance directives—you are legally obliged to comply with a patient’s wishes. Are those guidelines and safeguards broadly translatable across into what, from my point of view, is another choice that a patient may make to end their life?

Dr Cox: There are two differences that I would identify. The examples you give are of somebody who may be naturally dying and is being kept alive, so the difference is that you are withdrawing a treatment; you are not intentionally killing them. This is the first difference with assisted dying.

The second difference, I would say, is that you are absolutely right that we do make those decisions with patients—with their families, if they wish—but in a multi-professional team. I would almost never make those decisions as an individual doctor without the support of my colleagues, for several reasons. First, as I have said already, that makes for much better decisions—they are safer and more robust. Secondly, the moral distress associated with these decisions is much less if you share them. That is also a worry for me—what happens to the moral distress of the co-ordinating doctor and the other assessing doctor? They are carrying a lot of moral distress. My understanding is that a very small percentage of doctors will want to engage with this—maybe 1% or 2% of all doctors will want to be in those assessing positions. They are carrying a lot of that distress because they will be doing a lot of assessing.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Chair]

Order. I said earlier that this is not a dialogue. Address your comments to the Chair, and I will decide who speaks and when. I do not wish to be rude, but everybody’s got to have their fair share.

Sir Nicholas Mostyn: I do not know if you have seen Sir Stephen Sedley’s memo, which came today. He has suggested that the Official Solicitor should be the checker of these facts, which seems a sensible idea. The Official Solicitor would be able to recruit more staff to do this. It would not be nearly as expensive as High Court judges, and it would be an efficient way of dealing with the problem. The advantage of the Spanish system is that you have a qualified doctor as well as a lawyer doing the checking. Remember—a High Court judge is not going to be a qualified doctor. That is a significant advantage in my opinion.

[Danny Kruger]

Q I have a quick question for each of you. Sir Max, as you point out, the Bill does not repeal the ban on assisted suicide. It would still be illegal to assist someone to go to Switzerland. Alex Goodman KC, giving an opinion on behalf of Dignity in Dying, the campaign group that champions the Bill, thinks it is more likely that there would be prosecutions for people who assist their relatives to go to Switzerland once this Bill is passed. Do you share that view?

Sir Max Hill: I am not sure about that. I would always default to the code for Crown prosecutors and the two tests that the prosecution must go through, regardless of the crime that is being investigated. The evidential stage test sets out what it is necessary to be able to prove—some people say to a reasonable level—to afford a reasonable prospect of conviction. One can well imagine that, in Dignitas cases, that hurdle or test is often satisfied. It was often satisfied in the cases that I considered, and could often be satisfied in the future, but the evidential stage test being satisfied does not always mean that a prosecution results. That is because prosecutors must then go to the public interest stage and consider the non-exhaustive list of factors that are set out in the public interest stage test together with other policy, which, in this area of law, has developed since the legal case of Purdy in 2009.

In common with many other forms of crime, there are some legal policy considerations that a prosecutor is entitled to consider. They start at the very obvious—for example, what is the age of the suspect? Here, one is not thinking about the deceased who has gone to Dignitas. What is the age of the suspect? What are their characteristics? Have they ever committed a criminal offence before? What is their proximity to the case? What motivation did they have, emotional or otherwise, to lend assistance that technically means they have committed the offence?

I am going through that because, as I said, a proportion of the cases I considered were Dignitas cases, and it was often at the public interest stage that I determined that a public prosecution was not necessary. That is because, after full investigation, it transpired that the surviving relative had acted wholly out of compassion and, may I say, love for the deceased and was not seeking any gain for themselves—far from there being any dishonesty before or after the fact. That would still remain the case. It does not follow that, were this Bill to pass and were people then to take elderly relatives to Dignitas, they would necessarily face prosecution, but the premise of your question is “Could they?” and the answer to that is yes.

[Danny Kruger]

Q Sir Nicholas, do you want to comment? I have another question for you as well, but is it the case that prosecutions will be more likely? Maybe you disagree.

Sir Nicholas Mostyn: I do not agree.

[Danny Kruger]

Q You do not agree. In that case, this Bill would be worse for somebody with your condition because it does not address your condition and it would put your relatives at greater risk if they did assist you—but you do not think there is a danger of prosecution.

Sir Nicholas Mostyn: I think it is unlikely. I am sorry for interrupting you. I always used to say, “Don’t interrupt”, so I am sorry about that.

I fear that I will be one of the people, referred to by the lady who asked the first question, who has to go to Dignitas—frankly, I could afford to do that—because the Bill is not ever going to provide an assisted death for me. I will not be graphic about what the advanced stages of Parkinson’s are like, but the medical Members among you will be able to describe what is likely—not definitely; I do not want to say definitely—to await me. I am choosing my words carefully. It is either going to be a poor death here or to go somewhere like Dignitas. If my children took me as far as Calais, and then helped me after Calais—assistance only applies to within the jurisdiction—and drove me on to Zurich, I would be extremely surprised if any prosecution ensued.

[Danny Kruger]

Q I wanted to follow up further, but because time is tight I will jump to Mr Ruck Keene. Can you explain a little bit about your concerns about the Mental Capacity Act and its interaction with the Bill? Do you think the threshold of capacity, as set out, is adequate?

Alex Ruck Keene: I think there are two different questions. First, is any idea of capacity sufficient at all? I think that is an existential question that I am just going to park. Turning to the Mental Capacity Act itself, it is important to understand that there are three different bits of that Act in play. We have a set of principles: the presumption of capacity; the presumption that you have to provide all practicable support before you find someone to lack capacity; and the idea that you cannot, just because a decision seems unwise, say that someone lacks capacity. Then we have a functional aspect—in other words, can you understand, can you retain, can you use and weigh the relevant information, and can you communicate that decision? We also have what some people call the diagnostic element—in other words, is there an impairment or disturbance in the functioning of the mind or brain?

These are the three separate things, all of which we make work—more or less—in everyday practice. I say “more or less”, because yesterday I was on the advisory group for a project funded by the National Institute for Health and Care Research, which was funded in 2022 to try and increase the quality of mental capacity assessments in healthcare settings. We need to be under no illusions about how well we are doing it at the moment, but we make it work, more or less.

The Mental Capacity Act works more or less in the healthcare context, because every time we reach the view that someone cannot make a decision, we have an alternative—we can think about best interests. What we are asking the idea of mental capacity to do here is different, because there is no suggestion that, if you cannot support someone to make a decision, you will ever make a best interest decision in their name to assist death. It is also not obvious that the idea of a presumption of capacity should apply. If I doubt that you have capacity to make the decision to take your own life, or end your life, but I cannot prove it, is it logical or are we required to proceed on the basis that you do? Also, it is not immediately obvious that it is right that the diagnostic test applies in this context. In other words, I think you cannot understand the information, but I cannot prove the reason that you cannot understand it is that you have an impairment or disturbance. That is where my concern came in when I was explaining it in my written evidence.

I want to be absolutely and totally crystal clear: as far as I am concerned, at this stage, this is policy development. I am so glad that evidence is being taken and the public is thinking about this, but a Bill of this nature needs to be drafted by the Office of the Parliamentary Counsel. I am really trying to get across the policy line, which to me is about what doctors need to be interrogating—or anyone else, as I would love it if other people were involved—is, can the person understand the information? Can they retain it? Can they use and weigh it? Can they communicate their decision? If they cannot, we do not need to start mucking around with, “Why not?” It is just that they cannot, and that is the central idea of capacity. It is the functional idea, but it is tooled for use in the Bill rather than, as it stands at the moment, just being cross-referred out to the Mental Capacity Act, raising a whole series of additional complexities.

My only other observation is that I spend an awful lot of my life trying to improve Mental Capacity Act practice more broadly. I would be massively concerned were a knock-on effect of the Bill’s seeking to deal with a very specific group of people to be that it starts inadvertently—it would be inadvertent—interfering with how we think about healthcare decision making more broadly in the context of those people with impaired decision-making capacity. It is an insulation point, a making sure you have the right tools for the job point, and a not having a knock-on effect on thinking about things more broadly point. Sorry for the long answer.

[The Chair]

I will move on to Sojan Joseph, but perhaps you can pick this up. We have eight people wanting to ask questions and half an hour, tops.

--- Later in debate ---

[Stephen Kinnock]

Dr Spielvogel, I do not know whether you have anything new to add to that. If not, that is fine.

Dr Spielvogel: Without repeating anything that Dr Kaan said, I was just going to say that in addition to my assisted dying hat, I am also the programme director for the family medicine residency programme, so my main job is actually training young physicians who are becoming what you would call GPs.

We have instituted curricula as part of our residency programme here to train interested physicians in learning how to do assisted dying. We go through a whole process for that, including lectures, them shadowing me and me shadowing them, listening in on their conversations, giving them pointers and walking them through the steps of the process. They then do this with multiple patients through the course of their residency, so when they graduate, they feel confident in being able to offer this care. As with most medical training, this should be included in that part of the training process. All the other things, such as pathways in continuing medical education, are very important for physicians out there in practice who want to start doing this, but really getting this into medical training at its roots is vital for normalising the practice.

Speaking of which, something else I have heard a lot is that this might be distressing to physicians, or that physicians would not want to offer this care. I would like to say that 80% of our residents on our programme opt to receive this training. When we did a study on this of graduates from our programme who were continuing to offer assisted dying, 70% of the surveyed residents said that their assisted dying work was more rewarding to them than the rest of their primary care work—70% said that it was more rewarding.

I want to come back to the notion that physicians would feel burdened or that this would be some sort of psychological negative to physicians practising it, because it is actually quite rewarding work. It has led me to be a better physician to all my patients because it has helped me with having these difficult end-of-life conversations with them. That was a bit of a twofer, sorry—I added that on there.

[Danny Kruger]

Q I have four very quick questions. I would be grateful if you could try to answer them quickly, because we have to let everybody else in before the end of the session. Dr Spielvogel, I was struck by you saying that nine out of 10 patients to whom you have suggested this option were not aware of it. How many people who did not know about it before and to whom you might have suggested assisted dying as an option do you think have taken it up? How many people do you think benefited from you telling them about the option?

Dr Spielvogel: A lot. I have actually been quite surprised. Everybody is different. This is the whole point: different people have different goals, objectives and values. I have mentioned it to people who say, “No, I would never do that,” and I never bring it up to them again.

[Danny Kruger]

Sorry, but how many do you think?

[The Chair]

Order. Do not interrupt the witness, please. Let him finish. You can then come back in with a question.

[Danny Kruger]

I apologise.

Dr Spielvogel: No problem. To answer your question more directly, I have had several people over the past couple of years who had no idea that it was an option and said, “That’s what I want to do.” They then went through the process with me.

[Danny Kruger]

Q Thank you very much. I was also concerned by what you said about what you called family coercion, which is people trying to stop their relatives taking this option. Do you think we can do anything to prevent that happening?

Dr Spielvogel: Yes. I think it could be made into a misdemeanour, a felony or whatever the equivalent is over there—sorry, I do not have the terminology. You could make it illegal to interfere with a patient’s right to make this choice. We stopped short of that in our most recent addendum to our law here, but I think that was a lost opportunity.

[Danny Kruger]

Q I will just jump straight to my final question. Dr Kaan, you said that you felt that people who felt they might be a burden were exercising their autonomy, and it was a perfectly appropriate reason to seek an assisted death. Is that right, and do you think there is anything more we should do to make it easier for people to access this right? Do you think they should be asserting anything other than their wish to do so?

Dr Kaan: You characterised it correctly in that I think that for people who have capacity, and who are making the decision to have this as an option, a part of their reasoning is that they want to save their family from an onerous caregiving experience. I think that is their right and it is part of their value system.

Of course, if that is the only reason, we are going to be exploring that. As Dr Spielvogel has said, that is a red flag. We are going to be exploring that, and exploring whether acceptable alternatives exist and what are the resources that the person may not be aware of. That is always part of the discussion. These discussions are always broad and multifactorial. But I think it is appropriate and okay for somebody to say, “I do not want my family to experience what I myself had to experience when I was caregiving for my elderly parents with dementia.” I have heard that many, many times. I do think people who have capacity should have their autonomy respected, in terms of the values that are driving them to make this decision.

We always want to work towards improving the social support for caregiving that exists in our society. There is certainly a lack of it here in the US, and probably there in the UK as well. Hand in hand with allowing people to make an informed decision about the option of having an assisted death, you should also be a strong advocate for social support and caregiving services at the end of life, because those really are important and needed.

[Naz Shah]

Q Dr Spielvogel, there is a Bill in California, SB 1196, which was introduced on 24 February 2024. It proposes, first, to remove the six-month terminal illness prognosis and allow requests from those with a “grievous and irremediable” disease causing unbearable suffering; secondly, to allow dementia patients to request assisted suicide if two doctors deem them to have capacity; thirdly, to allow self-administration of lethal drugs via intravenous injection; and, fourthly, to eliminate the sunset clause in the current law. Do you know what the status of that Bill is? Is it still live? It suggests a significant broadening of the law, which would have similarities to that in Canada, and it would seem to reinforce the slippery slope argument.

Dr Spielvogel: That is a good question. I do not know the specific status of the Bill, but I would assume that it has itself undergone an assisted death at this point. That Bill is not really being supported by any of our advocacy groups or, by and large, the physicians who perform assisted dying, because it is, as you mentioned, very broad and not aligned with how we feel standard practice is going and where we would want it to go. That Bill did not receive support from many of us.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Chair]

Order. I am sorry; I hope this does not sound rude, Dr Kaan —regrettably, there are procedures in Parliament that require me to do this—but we have come to the end of the allotted time for the Committee to ask questions. I thank the witnesses Dr Spielvogel and Dr Kaan for your contributions and time. This was very valuable.

Thank you to our witnesses and for all the contributions, and for your forbearance on this very sensitive subject.

[Danny Kruger]

On a point of order, Mr Dowd. I wonder, given the fact that we have had so many really helpful conversations and questions but not enough time for everybody to ask everything they wanted, whether it would be appropriate for Members who want to write to witnesses to ask for follow-up information or further questions could do so through the Committee, rather than us all deluging the witnesses with our own messages, some of which will duplicate each other. I appreciate that there is a capacity question for the Clerks, but it might be appropriate to ask the Speaker for a bit more resource to enable that to happen. I think that the hon. Member for Spen Valley broadly supports the idea; I do not know if others do, as well.

[The Chair]

Let us be clear. Witnesses can submit written evidence until the Committee reports to the House. It is open to Members to individually write to witnesses and invite them to give written evidence, if they so wish. My advice to the hon. Member is that if he wishes to look at this in a more formal way or through a more formal mechanism, he is to speak to the Committee Clerks, because it is beyond my remit.

We now come to motions (a) to (d) amending the sittings motion tabled by the Member in charge. I have selected the amendment tabled to motion (a) and will group all four motions and the amendment for debate. I will first call Kim Leadbeater to move motion (a), then Naz Shah to move the amendment. The scope of the debate is all four motions and the amendment.

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Fourth sitting)

Danny Kruger Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 29th January 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Stephen Kinnock]

Thank you very much for that very comprehensive answer. Is there anything that our other guests would like to add?

Dr Mewett: As I was on the very first implementation taskforce, running blind, I probably could not add much more, except to say that it can be done. One has to focus on the readiness of practitioners, the readiness of health services, the readiness of the population and a whole range of other issues, including the pharmacy service. We have a state-wide care navigator service, which assists patients and doctors in the space. We had to set up a lot of services, and that gave us the time to do so. It was very successful and very challenging, but fortunately we did not have covid in our way.

[Danny Kruger (East Wiltshire) (Con)]

Q I am very grateful for your evidence; it is really useful. I want to state, for the record and for information, that we have before us today three professionals from Australia, all of whom support the laws in that country, and that we heard yesterday from two American doctors, who were also supportive of assisted suicide laws, even though in both countries there are many doctors who oppose what is happening. I regret that we are not hearing evidence from them, but it is very helpful to have your input.

Dr Fellingham, I was interested in your point about the distinction between the Australian model and the model in Canada and elsewhere. You are suggesting that most people who seek assisted death do so for what I think you called “existential reasons”. It is certainly not because of an absence of care, although we do see evidence of that in many countries. Can you expand on why you think it is so important that we have the terminally ill definition in the Bill, rather than recognising pain and suffering as the reason for seeking assisted dying, when I think most of the public who support a change in the law do so because they recognise that many people would naturally want to avoid pain and suffering? Yesterday, we heard from people who said that that is the right reason and that we should write that into the law. Why should we not do that?

Dr Fellingham: That is a very good question and I am grateful that you have asked it. We absolutely have to keep at front and centre that pain and suffering are primary drivers for people seeking access to relief of suffering, whether that is at the end of life or in any interaction that they have with healthcare providers. I speak to remind you that these laws apply to terminally ill people, because I feel that that is a lot easier for us to understand and get our heads around, but it does not detract from the fact that suffering can be a feature of non-terminal illnesses. There are people who can suffer terribly for very long periods of time—dementia being a clear example, but one that would be incredibly challenging to legislate for at this early stage.

What is interesting about the parallels you draw between pain and suffering is that it is a quite common conception that pain is suffering and suffering is pain, and that people seek access to relief of suffering at the end of life because it is the physical symptoms that are the most debilitating. Of course, the physical symptoms can be horrendous—pain, nausea, vomiting, anorexia; there are a multitude—but they are symptoms that we tend to be really quite good at treating. We have a whole range of medications in our palliative care spectrum that are very good at treating those physical symptoms, so it is quite rare that people prioritise those when thinking about this.

But suffering is subjective and it is context-dependent. What suffering is to me might be completely different from what it is to you, even if we are suffering from what looks to be, from the outside, the same disease. Suffering and distress—the thing that makes us human: the existential overlay of our own interaction with the world and how that is impacted by our disease process—is an incredibly personal journey and one that is extremely challenging to palliate, and it is very, very distressing for patients, their families and their practitioners if we cannot support people who are suffering at the end of life. Does that answer your question?

[Danny Kruger]

Q It does, very helpfully. Can I come back to you quickly? You point out that to suffer is essentially a subjective experience, so it is very difficult for somebody from the outside to determine whether somebody else is suffering to a certain threshold. By that reasoning, it should simply be the case that people who feel that they are suffering intolerably should be eligible. Why do you not think that that is what we should have in the law?

Dr Fellingham: In our law, in Western Australia, one of our eligibility criteria is that a person is suffering intolerably, in a manner that they consider intolerable, and that we have taken all reasonable steps to alleviate. The important thing about suffering is that it is a personal experience. It is not mine to judge as a clinician; it is mine to delicately and expertly tease out of a patient and to attempt to mitigate and treat to the best of my ability. Yes, suffering absolutely is what the patient says it is, and these laws are designed to honour individual patients who are dying. They are not designed for us as practitioners or clinicians looking in from the outside; they are designed to be supportive of an individual patient’s illness journey, and only they can know what the experience of that is.

Dr McLaren: It is a very good question, Mr Kruger. I think one of the distinctions is where the point of hope is and where the point of no return may be for that suffering. If you were to say that patients or people may apply for this or self-confess suffering in the absence of an end-of-life condition, that leads to questions about whether it applies to a 21-year-old with a decompensated mood disorder that could be treated or improved. When we are talking about patients within the last six months of their life, that suffering is very hard to come back from in the time that is given to them. It is about that recognition of the point of difference between hope for the future and a different type of hope—hope for improvement in symptoms or control of the situation, but not for physical improvement or a return to normal function or living. That is the real difference between legislating purely on the basis of suffering, versus in the context of suffering that will not get significantly better.

The point is that the line must be drawn somewhere. We have seen patients who have been ineligible under our laws where we have found immense suffering, and that is a difficult space to navigate in its own right, but those cases are going to happen regardless of where the line is drawn, and it needs to be in a place where people are comfortable to navigate on one side or the other. That is where the clinical education comes into the process, in terms of how we best manage that, recognise the suffering in the individual, try to make things better and work hand in hand with palliative care and other colleagues to try to improve symptoms for the patients who are not eligible under these laws.

Dr Mewett: As a palliative care physician, I spend all my professional life addressing people’s suffering in the context of an advanced, progressing, incurable illness. Palliative care, of course, approaches that from a range of different angles. I see VAD—assisted dying, voluntary —as an end-of-life choice among a range of end-of-life choices that people may or may not make. A minority of our patients will take that choice and have some control. They require and should have excellent palliative care up to the time that they die, whichever way they decide to die.

I think we should understand that despite the best palliative care in the world, there are still patients who suffer uncontrollably, unremittingly and intolerably. I believe that it is that small minority of patients who should have a legal option to take control of that stage when it is irreparable. It is not incompatible with palliative care; it is part of palliative care and an end-of-life choice, and not the philosophy of care that palliative care is.

--- Later in debate ---

[Kim Leadbeater]

Q Thank you for coming to give evidence this morning—it is incredibly helpful. I am going to come back to clause 2 of the Bill, which concerns the definition of terminal illness. I am very clear on who the Bill is aimed at helping and who it is not aimed at involving. The definition says that the person has to have

“an inevitably progressive illness, disease or medical condition which cannot be reversed by treatment”.

It also says, for the avoidance of doubt, that this cannot be “a mental disorder” or “a disability”. I hear your concerns, and I want to support you and work with you on this. I am keen to know: what else do you want to see in the Bill that would reassure you that this is not about disabled people or people with mental disorders?

Dr Griffiths: I am conscious of time, so I will be very quick. My first point would be, why would you stick it at six months then? Why not have it at seven days, for example, as a way to take out our concerns? If you are talking about prognosis, let us go back to Chelsea’s point and the point that I made before. My condition is a neuromuscular condition. I have had meetings with clinicians where some have referred to it as a terminal illness, some have referred to it as a life-limiting condition, and others have referred to it as a progressive condition. The articulation of the ideas and the ways in which we think about conditions show the complexity of the issue. We are talking about terminal illness, and people who are terminally ill do constitute disabled people under the Equality Act, so you cannot make the distinction.

If you want to be quite proactive about it, then why not reduce the prognosis timeframe and make it as short as possible to take out the concerns about prognosis, and the concerns around whether individuals are going to live longer or could be facilitated access to alternative treatments to prolong life? I do not understand why we are fixated on a six-month prognosis because, as we have seen in other countries, as soon as you pass the legislation on six months, you will have individuals who say, “Why not seven months? Why not five months?” You will have campaigners who will say, “This does not include me and I have been campaigning for this.” There will be pressure to change and Governments will change. There is no guarantee that you can make that the eligibility criteria will be fixed.

[Danny Kruger]

Q I want to give Professor Shakespeare the chance to respond to the point that we have heard. I am interested in whether you recognise that many disabled people—in fact, not just disabled people, but anybody who declines treatment that keeps them alive—would qualify as terminally ill under the terms of the Bill? What protections we could give to prevent that?

Professor Shakespeare: First of all, a terminal illness is defined as a “condition which cannot be reversed by treatment” I know that that does not mean a cure; you are not aiming at a cure—but it says, “cannot be reversed”. Surely that would not include things like HIV and diabetes because they can be reversed. They cannot be cured; they are still there, but they can be reversed with insulin, antiretrovirals or whatever.

I think, yes, terminally ill people are disabled people almost always, but that does not mean that all disabled people are terminally ill. Even if you have a disease or a condition—like Miro does or like other people do—that will probably result in your death eventually, you are not going to die tomorrow or in six months. You may die in 16 years or whatever. It is very difficult to define terminal illness, and that is why six months, I think, is used in this Bill.

Very recently, my aunt died. She was unconscious for the last month or so of having cancer and then she finally died. She would not have been able to express her will and her preference to have assisted dying, even if she wanted it. Therefore, I think six months when you can have capacity, you can anticipate, you know you are going to die but you want to have control in the manner of your death, is more useful than seven days or less, when you might be unconscious and you might not be able to express a will or preference.

[The Chair]

I call Simon Opher.

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Sixth sitting)

Danny Kruger Excerpts

Committee stage
Thursday 30th January 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Dr Neil Shastri-Hurst (Solihull West and Shirley) (Con)]

Q I will direct this question initially to Mr Greenwich. The issue of coercion has been a significant concern to many in the debate. In line with the New South Wales legislation, the Bill as proposed does not provide a definition of coercion, either explicitly or by reference to other legislation. Have you found that to pose a difficulty in your jurisdiction?

Alex Greenwich: In New South Wales, our legislation deals with and goes through coercion in quite some detail, with pathways to assess it. It deals specifically, for example, with a situation in which someone is under coercion from a person who is a beneficiary of their will; obviously, the person seeking voluntary assisted dying then becomes ineligible. In the space of coercion, that is a key part of the training for a doctor who will be a consulting or co-ordinating practitioner. We have made it a criminal offence in New South Wales, and indeed our board will report on it and on whether eligibility for access to voluntary assisted dying has been denied to someone. Our most recent report indicates that it has.

The overwhelming experience is that having voluntary assisted dying in place is itself a safeguard from coercion for people with a terminal illness. If someone wants to end their life quickly, voluntary assisted dying through a regulated process is not the option that they are going to take. Someone engaging in voluntary assisted dying will be assessed against coercion and against decision-making capacity, and will have to make sure it is an enduring decision.

When we talk about coercion, and the concern that people may currently have in the UK about people with a terminal illness feeling in any way coerced, the experience in New South Wales and elsewhere in Australia is that voluntary assisted dying has provided a safeguard in that regard. Our legislation, the training and the reporting is very clear on that.

[Danny Kruger (East Wiltshire) (Con)]

Q Can I have one minute with Dr Furst and one minute with Mr Greenwich? Dr Furst, I have had a look at the reports of the South Australia Voluntary Assisted Dying Review Board, and I can find no data on referrals for additional assessments of eligibility or decision-making capacity, or reasons why people were considered ineligible. There is no provision for reporting on complications, the time between the administration of the drugs and loss of consciousness, or the time between the administration of the drugs and death, and as we have heard there is no requirement for a doctor to be present. I do not understand how you can say that there is no evidence of coercion, issues around capacity or complications at the death, because you clearly do not collect the evidence on those things.

Dr Furst: I do not think that is the case. We are seeking out from relatives—within a month, normally—around any complications. As I said, we are also informally speaking to the nurse practitioners who are on site, but I do not think that that has been published as part of our state report. In terms of coercion, I would say that it is much more likely that patients are being coerced into invasive and intensive treatments, like cancer treatments such as chemotherapy, than being coerced into voluntary assisted dying.

[Danny Kruger]

Q Okay. Thank you very much for that.

Mr Greenwich, you said a couple of things. You said that voluntary assisted dying supports palliative care in terms of funding. I read that although New South Wales committed to spending an extra 743 million Australian dollars on palliative care, in fact the budget was cut by 249 million Australian dollars in 2023; at the same time, New South Wales allocated 97 million Australian dollars in new funding to assisted dying. I do not understand how you think that palliative care benefited from this introduction.

You talked about suicide prevention. The fact is that unassisted suicide rises in states that have assisted suicide laws, because suicide is contagious. It is too early to tell what is happening in New South Wales, but in recent years in Victoria unassisted suicide rose by 50%, while in New South Wales, before it had this law, it stayed the same. Again, I do not understand how you think that this helps with suicide.

We have just heard about the so-called safeguards and we heard yesterday from Australian colleagues. Do you agree that the safeguards that were introduced were in fact impediments to access and that it would be the right thing to do to remove them?

Alex Greenwich: I will try in the time to answer all three of those questions and I am happy to provide more information on notice as well.

On the palliative care funding, it is accurate that New South Wales had a record boost in palliative care funding. Not all of that could be expended as the workforce was being trained up, but that commitment from all sides of our Parliament is there. You can always seek to improve palliative care funding; that in no way should be competing at all with voluntary assisted dying.

When it comes to the question of suicide, as I addressed in my opening statement, voluntary assisted dying is a form of suicide prevention. If someone wishes to end their life, voluntary assisted dying is not the process they are going to take. It is a process that provides a safeguard to ensure that people are getting full information on palliative care and getting social supports.

In terms of the safeguards in our legislation and being proposed in your legislation, it is really important that you have in your head and in your heart the experience of a person with a terminal illness who is going to have a cruel and painful death. We are talking about people who are dying and who want to have a death better than their terminal illness would otherwise provide them with. We are talking about a small cohort to whom we in New South Wales sought to give peace, dignity and control. We are really proud that we did.

[The Chair]

I remind colleagues to stay within scope of the Bill, please.

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Seventh sitting)

Danny Kruger Excerpts

Committee stage
Thursday 30th January 2025 Public Bill Committees

[The Chair]

It is one question, one answer. I call Danny Kruger.

[Danny Kruger (East Wiltshire) (Con)]

Q Professor Hoyano, what do you think about the indemnity against civil liability in the Bill? Do you think it is appropriate to indemnify all doctors, even if they have made a woefully bad diagnosis, botched a prescription or, in some cases, actually caused some harm? Do you think it is appropriate that they be excluded from civil liability?

Professor Hoyano: I always have a problem when tort liability is ruled out by legislation. I think that the accountability of medical professionals, and indeed all medical practitioners in private practice, lies at the heart of how our national health service works, so I have a difficulty with that. I would have to ask Ms Leadbeater whether this is correct, but perhaps the intention was to ensure that members of the family who, for example, were against assisted dying in principle, would not be able to bring an action that could be vexatious against a doctor who had complied with the legislation and should therefore not be troubled with that type of litigation. It might be that that provision could be refined.

[Lewis Atkinson (Sunderland Central) (Lab)]

Q Professor Hoyano, the Bill would establish offences relating to coercion, pressure and so on. In the processes set out, there are a number of checkpoints, for want of a better term, at which a person seeking assisted dying may talk to doctors or others. What are your observations on how the criminal construct of offences is linked to the different opportunities for an individual seeking assisted dying to have conversations? In your view, is it likely to lead to the identification of those offences? How does that contrast with some of the considerations at the moment, where people are withdrawing treatment in a life or death situation, for example?

Professor Hoyano: It is interesting that a number of Members of Parliament who are practising physicians pointed out in the debate that they have to evaluate freedom of decision making and absence of coercion in many different medical contexts. I point particularly to the withdrawal of medical treatment at the request of the patient, even if that will inevitably lead to death. It is considered to be a fundamental human right that lies at the heart of medical law that a patient has personal autonomy to decide what to do with their body and whether or not to accept medical treatment, provided that they have the capacity to do so and are acting without coercion from external sources. Doctors have to make those assessments all the time.

I suggest that it is perhaps a convenient fallacy to say that pulling the plug on a respirator or stopping artificial nutrition and hydration is a negative act, whereas giving a patient a syringe to end their own life is a positive act. I realise that with the Tony Bland case it was convenient to say that, but there is no doubt that most people on the street would say that pulling the plug on a respirator is a positive act, and yet doctors and nurses are required to do that every day in the NHS, because that is the patient’s autonomy. If there is any question about either coercion or capacity, the Court of Protection steps in and has the jurisdiction to make those decisions.

The Court of Protection should, I believe, be the court that is supervising this, not the High Court. Three levels of judges sit in the Court of Protection; I suggest that a High Court judge be specified, which would mean a statutory amendment to extend the jurisdiction of the Court of Protection. The Court of Protection makes decisions every day on whether a patient has the mental capacity to make decisions about their own medical treatment. It is accustomed to doing that, and one aspect of that analysis is whether the patient is being coerced externally.

Generally speaking, when a patient says, “I don’t want to be on a respirator any longer; I know I’m going to die,” we do not ask questions. As I understand it, it is not part of the protocol to say, “Are you doing this because you are worried about being a burden on the NHS?”, because their personal autonomy is the overriding principle governing medical decision making in relation to the patient. I hope that that answers your question.

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[The Chair]

Time allows us to ask more questions. Three people have indicated that they wish to come in. I will start with Danny Kruger.

[Danny Kruger]

Q It is great to hear about the case for common law over the Human Rights Act. Yesterday we heard about parliamentary sovereignty. This is a tremendous process we are having here.

Professor Hoyano said that the person in the street would not see the difference between a patient requesting to die by the withdrawal of treatment versus the active administration of fatal drugs, whereas I think you said, Professor Owen, that you did see a profound difference between that decision on the part of the patient and also, presumably, the act on the part of the medical professional, in the case of either the withdrawal of treatment or the administration of fatal medication. You said that you would be happy to draw that out; could you do so?

Professor Owen: Yes. I am happy to try now, but also to do it further with some written submissions if that would be helpful, because it is such an important point. First, for the man on the street, or the person on the bus, one thing to remember—this comes out in the public opinion polling—is that when you ask about assisted dying, some people think that that is access to palliative care. There is a degree of misconceptions that are out there in the public that are important to bear in mind.

On the distinction between the decision around the refusal of life-sustaining treatment and the decision regarding assisted dying, what are the similarities? Well, they are both about life and death. What are the differences? One is a refusal; one is a request. One is traditionally considered to be about bodily integrity—it is the so-called shield of the person, or the patient, against the intervention on the body that is being made by the medical profession. You are giving the patient an important right, which is a shield-like right. That contrasts with a request for assisted dying, which is a request. You are involving other people in an act that is an act of ending one’s life. That is not something that the medical profession has been comfortable with, going back thousands of years.

So you can discern a number of differences. Could you reduce those differences to one thing and one thing only, and be particularly precise about it? Probably not. I think you are talking about differences that cluster and group, and which we overall accept as a difference of kind.

The other issue here that is important is intention. When you are assessing somebody’s decision to refuse a life-sustaining treatment, the doctor there does not have the intention to end a person’s life. That would be a concerning intention were it there—and sometimes it is looked for, actually, if it is disputed. But of course, when a doctor is involved with a process where somebody is seeking assistance in the ending of their life, it is quite difficult to say that the doctor does not have an intention to end life.

One could go on with a discussion of the differences, but the similarity is that we are talking about life and death.

[Kim Leadbeater]

Q This has been an incredibly helpful panel, so thank you for all your expertise.

Let me come back to the content of the Bill, and to some of your points, Professor Owen. In terms of capacity and coercion, I think we are absolutely having these really important conversations. What concerns me a little bit, though, is whether we are saying we are not confident that two doctors, potentially a psychiatrist and an oncologist, and a judge can make assessments of capacity and coercion between them. What does that mean for things that are happening at the moment? We have talked about the withdrawal of end of life treatment and those things; those assessments must be being done now, all the time, but at the moment there is no legal framework around that. Surely, putting a legal framework around that and having all those multidisciplinary people involved has got to be a positive thing. Professor Hoyano, I would appreciate your thoughts on that.

Professor Hoyano: As I say, whereas I completely respect Professor Owen’s expertise in this as a psychiatrist, for me as a lawyer the question of capacity is a yes or no, necessarily. But capacity is always determined by the Court of Protection in respect of the decision that must be made by the person concerned: do they have the capacity to do it?

When we are talking about a determination of capacity, and also about coercion—which of course is part of capacity in a sense, because capacity is the autonomy of decision making—you are going to be having a very focused inquiry. It is not an inquiry into whether a person has capacity to manage their financial affairs. I probably do not have that capacity, but on something like this I would have capacity. It is important to recognise that it is a yes or no question, which the law has to draw and does draw, depending on the expertise of psychiatrists like Professor Owen, but also forming its own judgment from its own experience, which is why I think the Court of Protection really is the place where this should be.

There is one aspect of the Bill that worries me a lot, and that is the number of people who will be excluded by the provision that the medication must be self-administered. This would mean that Tony Nicklinson, who went all the way to the House of Lords to try to get the right to die, could not have it under this Bill, because he was paralysed. He was a tetraplegic, basically—he was paralysed from the neck down, with limited movement of his head, from a stroke. He lived for seven years with that condition and he would not have been able to self-administer. In fact, when he was denied by the House of Lords—anyone who has seen the Channel 4 programme will have watched him wail in despair—he refused all nutrition and hydration from that point until he died. That was the death he did not want, and I think we need to recognise that there are problems like that. In 2023 in Canada, across the entire country, only five patients opted to self-administer the medication—only five. Even when patients were capable of doing it, they wanted the doctor to do it instead, so let us remember that as well, please.

Dr Ward: Can I make a quick point about self-administration? This is something that in Scotland we looked into in great detail. In Scotland, we chose self-administration specifically because it does not just include ingestion or swallowing. There is a range of ways in which you can self-administer the medication, and I am happy to provide that information to the Committee if that would be helpful.

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[Lewis Atkinson]

Q Dr Richards, in the light of your research, could you say a little bit more about the weight that individuals dying place on the importance of autonomy and how that is weighed up against other considerations around safeguarding and so on?

Dr Richards: There are two things that I would like to say about this. The first is that it is individually specific, which probably will not come as a shock to you. The evidence shows that the people who request assisted dying are people who have a particular preference for control in their life, and they have had this preference across their life, so it is part of their identity. In that sense, it is a personal preference as opposed to a deficit in palliative care, which is what we hear a lot about.

The second thing is that, with regards to autonomy, proponents of assisted dying are very keen to emphasise that this is an autonomous decision, which it is, and would have to be by virtue of the law. However, that does not mean that families, loved ones and close social relations are not really embedded in that decision making. It is important to think of autonomy as relational rather than as an isolated making a decision not in relation to others. It is also important to think about the impacts on the family when you are thinking about the guidelines that would go along with any legislation.

[Danny Kruger]

Q This is a question for Claire Williams. It was interesting that you said you were not aware of what drugs might be used in assisted dying. We obviously do not yet know what will be proposed here if we pass this law. There are lots of different combinations of drugs used in other jurisdictions, and we do not know much about them. I think that is fair to say.

What we do know is that there is a combination. In two thirds of deaths in Belgium, I think, and in the United States, where I have visited, the first drug that is used is an anaesthetic, and then there is a paralysing agent. A paralytic drug is introduced, which often gives the impression that the patient is having a peaceful death, but we do not actually know what is going on beneath the surface. I am afraid to say that, from studies into people who have been on death row who have been legally executed, there is often evidence of brain trauma. Can you speak to this at all? We know that in a minority of cases real complications occur—it often takes a very long time for the patient to die, and there is vomiting and all sorts of distress. How can we improve what we know about the actual process of dying, and how can we reduce these terrible complications?

Claire Williams: I can only apologise, because I am here to give evidence about a model for collective decision making rather than about my experience with regard to these drugs. As you say, the potential side effects and prolonged deaths are something we will need to consider for these cases. We need to take evidence from other countries that have had this experiences. Apologies, but I cannot comment on this particular aspect.

[Kit Malthouse]

Q My question is to Dr Richards. Obviously health service medics are dealing with end-of-life situations at the moment—they are withdrawing treatment or declining to give treatment if they think it is futile. In those circumstances there are a set of safeguards. How do those safeguards compare with the safeguards in the Bill? From your research, do you think there is any adjustment required to the safeguards we have at the moment?

Dr Richards: Assisted dying is quite categorically different from the end-of-life scenarios you are talking about there, so you would expect a very different set of safeguards. It is a misunderstanding to think that assisted dying is of a piece with other life-ending decisions. It is really something quite different and requires a different framework.

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[The Chair]

Order. One question, one answer. I call Danny Kruger.

[Danny Kruger]

Q Professor Preston, I wonder what you think about this idea of a panel instead of the High Court judge. A lot of Members who voted for the Bill on Second Reading did so partly on the basis that there would be that judicial stage. Although we can all recognise the value of having more expertise involved, the role of the judge is essentially adversarial in principle, and the public would expect it to be. They would be hearing arguments and taking evidence. Do you think that the Bill would be safe without that? Secondly, do you not agree that, as we heard earlier from a law professor, the right of appeal should be in both directions? There should be the right of appeal against an approval as well as against a denial?

Professor Preston: I think we suggested a panel. I submitted some evidence after the last Select Committee inquiry about a panel that could operate outside. Lots of the reasons I gave were about helping to navigate, helping to identify doctors and helping to support people who feel vulnerable within the NHS.

What increasingly came out from the idea of a judge is the question of what exactly their role is and the fact that there is no right of appeal. However, if you had a panel, that would give a much more thorough understanding of what is happening. The additional safeguard is that the panel could say there needs to be a palliative care consultation. You would have to be sure the doctors who are doing it are, based on their register, qualified to have a palliative care conversation so that all options have been explored.

My fear is about if we do not specify what training is or what these people’s expertise is. Most doctors do not know too much about palliative care or what the options are. You do not need to see a palliative care doctor, as a palliative care nurse can talk you through it, but the additional power of that panel is that it could be answerable to the court or some other sort of assisted dying tribunal.

[Lewis Atkinson]

Q I have a question for Dr Richards. I note from your biography that you have done work studying the phenomenon of old age rational suicide. I noted your comments before about research suggesting that people who seek assisted death have got particular, strong preferences for control and agency at the end of life. We know there are around 650 people with terminal illnesses who take their own lives every year at the moment. I wonder, particularly given your work on old age suicide, what would be your assessment on how assisted dying becoming an option here in the UK might affect those statistics.

Dr Richards: The Bill covers terminal illness only. It includes people with six months left to live, so it would not include the phenomenon of old age rational suicide, which is where you want to end your own life for reasons of the accumulated losses of old age, or because you feel you have lived a completed life. This really relates to people who are in what is called the fourth age of life. It is a social and cultural phenomenon that there are people in the fourth age of life who want to wrap things up on their own terms, but this is a separate phenomenon to people who are in a natural dying phase of life and want to accelerate that. It is different.

After you legalise assisted dying for terminally ill people, you will still get older people taking their own life. The highest demographic for completed suicides is people over the age of 70. It is a phenomenon around the world, but it is a qualitatively different phenomenon to people in a natural dying phase. If we look at the data on who requests assisted dying, it is people who want control and agency, and they may even have thought about it as a mode of dying that they want to access before they even had a terminal illness. They might have always imagined that, but that is in conjunction with various forms of suffering that they will be experiencing. It is not just personal preference; they are also suffering, and suffering is very multi-faceted and multi-dimensional at end of life. It has various different components, not just physical.

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[Rachel Hopkins]

Q Thank you all for sharing your family stories today. It is really moving. Julie, I want to ask about your experience in Spain and how you found that particular process in comparison with what we have in the Bill. How did it work? What was positive or difficult for you?

Julie Thienpont: Guido had decided right from the word go, even before he got sick, that that was the way he would want to end his life, if there was a possibility of it. He was from Belgium originally, so he expressed a wish that if ever he needed it, he would like to go back there.

The law in Spain is very similar to the Bill, which I have read through countless times. There are a lot of similarities. There were very rigorous checks. It involved much paperwork, counselling and family liaison. The difference was that it went before a board, so it was a panel that would allow or not allow the decision—it was not decided in a court. That would be the main difference, but the process was rigorous. It was slightly difficult for me, because although I can speak Spanish, the terminology was frequently more difficult, so they very kindly translated for me. They explained everything: what would happen and how it would happen, if it happened. It was a big celebration for Guy when he was actually granted this. They also told us that he could change his mind after he had made the decision, should he wish to. He did once. It was me who asked him to do that, because I did not feel he was sick enough, which sounds a bit silly, I know.

He was an intensely private person. The palliative care in the part of Spain where we were is excellent, but it was quite irrelevant for him because he had already expressed that he wanted to die at home. We lived up a mountain; we were quite remote. Being such a private person, he never wanted to be in a situation where somebody else had to see him in any vulnerable situations, especially with personal hygiene and so on—even me, although I was able to help him in many ways. I had to do a lot of procedures for him, after being trained to do so, but he was more than happy with the situation of having assisted dying once it was granted. He did not need any other sort of care, although we still had a nurse coming every few days and the family doctor came up at least once a week. That does not sound much, but he did not want her any more often than that.

[Danny Kruger]

Q This is a question for Mr Malone. May I say how greatly I sympathise with what you have been through? I am very sorry to be fighting against you in this matter. I really can imagine how that feels. Thank you for what you said. I just want to ask about your sister’s experience. On the eligibility question, is it your belief that she would have qualified for an assisted death under the Bill, with the six-month terminal illness criterion? To follow up on that, do you think we should expand the scope to include people with motor neurone disease who might not fall within the six months?

Pat Malone: She would not qualify, because there was no telling how long she would live as a live brain in a dead body, as she said. It could have been months or even years, so she would not qualify in any case under this Bill. However, you have moved mountains to get to this point, so the last thing in the world I want to do is pile more requirements on the Bill. I would like to see some stuff stripped out of it, actually, to make it easier, but I am not going to ask for that because we desperately need to get away from the status quo. This Bill gets us away from the status quo.

[Naz Shah]

Q Thank you very much for coming today and sharing your stories. I have two questions. Julie, you said that you had family liaison and counselling. How long did that go on for? This Bill does not have that requirement, so do you think it is something that we should put in it?

Julie Thienpont: Maybe I said “counselling”, but it was not a session of counselling. It was somebody asking my opinion to check that I was 100% behind Guy. His son also did that by proxy—via us—because he was in a different part of Spain. They wanted to ensure that he had talked it over with family members. It was not hastened along, because he had been given a short life span, so it did not take terribly long. He had to wait about three weeks before the initial ball started rolling, and then two weeks later a family doctor and nurses from the hospital came round for form filling, reading through, translating and signatures, and again another two weeks after that. Each time, I believe it went before a panel. We did not, but the paperwork had to go before a panel. They were left in no uncertain terms that that was the way he wanted to end his life.

It was a very peaceful, serene and beautiful death, as opposed to what it would have been like. He was able to speak to his relatives in Australia, his brothers in Belgium and other family members, and I was able to hold his hand. Guy had always been a bit of an old cowboy, and he always said that he wanted to die with his boots on. I am proud to say that that is what he did. At the end, we were holding hands, and I said to him, “Don’t be afraid.” He said, “I’m not afraid,” and he winked at me just before he closed his eyes.

On the process, perhaps I should have said that it was intravenous, so he had a drip in each arm. It was quite a quick process—maybe 10 to 15 minutes, which I thought was quite quick—but we had had lots of time that morning, you know. It was a beautiful end—the wink especially. I am left with very good memories of such a peaceful death, which was going to happen regardless. He was at peace with it, so that helped me.

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[The Chair]

As we have time, I call Danny Kruger.

[Danny Kruger]

Q Following straight on from that, do you imagine it to be an NHS-funded service if it is outside core general practice? If so, what might the implications be for resourcing, assuming that it was funded out of general NHS resources? In the practical terms of the Bill, what do you think of the provision that the co-ordinating doctor must remain present with the person until they die, bearing in mind that that might take some hours? I am interested in your view on the implications for resourcing the service.

Dr Mulholland: Fortunately, that is not the RCGP’s bit, but I think we would be very much concerned. In our principles, we were clear that we thought that there should be no reduction in core services in general practice, nor should there be any reduction, if the Bill goes through, in funding to palliative care services, which we know are often struggling as well. This should therefore be additionally funded. Whether it occurs in the NHS is not our decision, but we would be very concerned about health inequalities creeping into any part of the health service. We are aware of the differential that occurs in lots of things—life expectancy has come out again in recent reports between different parts of the country and people who live with different levels of poverty. If the Bill comes through, we will want to make sure that there is not a differential in who is able to access it. Whether that says that it should be NHS or private I am not sure, but that needs to be considered as part of whatever comes out of this.

[Dr Opher]

Q I would like to go back to the point about depression, because it is common. In the general population, 20% are on antidepressants—on SSRIs. GPs diagnose the vast majority of depressions. Dr Mulholland, what are your thoughts on whether checking for demonstrable depression should be a standard part of the assessment before you refer people into the service? The idea of getting a psychiatrist who wanted assisted dying to see every case, given how difficult it is to see a psychiatrist in the NHS at present, would really limit the service.

Dr Mulholland: We see a lot of people with mood disorders of different types and of different severities. Many people with depression who are treated with antidepressants carry out full-functioning jobs and lives because of the treatment that they have and because their depression is not of that severity. If someone had very severe depression and we were accessing our psychiatric colleagues, that would be a different decision, and perhaps it is not something that would happen at that point. Most people with depression, anxiety and other mental health problems would have capacity, because we would presume it under the Mental Capacity Act, so it is not necessarily an obstruction to people being referred for anything.

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[Sarah Sackman]

Further to that point of order, Mrs Harris. I want to clarify the Government’s position. As the Committee knows, the Government are neutral on the Bill, but once the Committee has concluded its work and prior to Report, we are committed to publishing the ECHR memorandum, a delegated powers memorandum, the economic impact assessment that was committed to during the money resolution debate, and an assessment of the equalities impact of the Bill. In terms of the timing, it is necessary that the impacts that are assessed be of the Bill as it is brought forward. If the Bill is liable to change via amendments proposed by members of this Committee, it is important that we know what it is that we are assessing the impact of. That is why the proposed timing is to publish the impact assessment at that stage. The point is that before Members of the House come to a vote on Report and Third Reading, they will all have before them the impact assessment in respect of equalities and all those other aspects of the Bill.

[Danny Kruger]

On a point of order, Mrs Harris.

[The Chair]

I am going to proceed now. I thank the hon. Member for Bexleyheath and Crayford for notice of his point of order. I am sure that the Member in charge and the Government have heard his points. If he wishes to look at procedural options, he should consult the Clerks in the Public Bill Office.

That brings us to the end of today’s sitting. The Committee will meet at 9.25 am on Tuesday 11 February to begin line-by-line consideration.

Ordered, That further consideration be now adjourned. —(Bambos Charalambous.)