Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Eighteenth sitting)

Stephen Kinnock Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 5th March 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Naz Shah]

Thank you, Mr Dowd.

I come back to the issue of potential coercive control, which is what amendment 20 addresses. As I have outlined, there are patients who could be in that position. Given the examples that I have put before the Committee, I argue that the amendment, although it is brilliant in getting us to a better place than where we started out with the Bill—I am pleased that my hon. Friend the Member for Spen Valley has indicated that she is happy to discuss strengthening the safeguards—does not go far enough, for the very reasons that I have outlined, and no doubt will outline further when speaking to other amendments.

[The Minister for Care (Stephen Kinnock)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Mr Dowd. As I have said, the Government remain neutral and my role is not to offer a Government view on the merits of the amendments, but to provide a factual explanation of their technical and practical effect to assist the Committee in its scrutiny.

The Government remain committed to ensuring the legal robustness and workability of all legislation, so I have worked closely with my hon. Friend the Member for Spen Valley on some amendments. Where changes have been mutually agreed by my hon. Friend and the Government, I will offer a technical, factual explanation and rationale for the amendments. Those include amendments 185 and 186 in this group. The Government remain neutral on the Bill and do not have a position on assisted dying.

This group relates to the necessary training, qualifications and experience of the co-ordinating doctor. As drafted, clause 5 gives the Secretary of State the power to specify the training, qualifications and experience required for a registered medical practitioner to act as a co-ordinating doctor, but there is no legal duty for the Secretary of State to do so. Amendments in this group either seek to change that power to a legal duty, or would introduce specific training, qualifications and experiential requirements for a registered medical practitioner to act as a co-ordinating doctor.

Amendments 185 and 186 tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Spen Valley would introduce a duty on the Secretary of State to make regulations regarding the necessary training, qualifications and experience of the co-ordinating doctor. Giving the Secretary of State a duty rather than merely a power would ensure certainty as to the training, qualifications and experience that the registered medical practitioner must have in order to act as a co-ordinating doctor. The Secretary of State’s duty in this respect would include making provision in regulations about training for co-ordinating doctors relating to assessing capacity and assessing whether a person has been coerced or pressured by another person. Amendment 186 would also enable the Secretary of State, subject to the specific training requirements already mentioned, to delegate the determination of the training, qualifications and experience needed for a co-ordinating doctor to a person specified in the regulations. That would allow that determination to be delegated to a body or bodies with appropriate expertise, in line with other aspects of training for healthcare professionals.

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[Danny Kruger]

Will the Minister clarify that point? Is he suggesting that because fewer doctors might be eligible or willing to conduct the preliminary assessment, we should not require it at that early stage?

[Stephen Kinnock]

What we are trying to say is that the important thing here is to ensure that, when the Secretary of State brings the regulations forward, the hands of the Secretary of State are not tied too tightly, so that the Secretary of State is able to bring together the right people, to deliver the right training, to achieve the outcomes that are required through the regulations. Our assessment is that this amendment would, in essence, narrow the pool of people available to do the training. That would seem to pre-empt the idea behind doing this through regulations, which is to ensure that there is up-to-date training that is responsive to where we may or may not be two years down the line from the Bill having its commencement. It is about having that flexibility and that ability to build capacity.

Amendment 340 would place the Secretary of State under a duty to make regulations requiring a co-ordinating doctor to have specific and up-to-date training relating to reasonable adjustments and safeguards for autistic people and people with a learning disability. I note that amendments 185 and 186, if passed, would impose a duty on the Secretary of State to specify the training, qualifications and experience that the co-ordinating doctor will need.

The consequence of this amendment would be to require the Secretary of State to introduce a further requirement on the co-ordinating doctor—to have undergone training relating to reasonable adjustments and safeguards for autistic people and people with a learning disability. In considering whether the amendment is required, I note that the Health and Social Care Act 2008 requires that all CQC-registered health and adult social care providers ensure that their staff receive specific training on learning disability and autism.

Amendment 427 would impose an obligation to take all reasonable steps to ensure that the co-ordinating doctor is proficient in the Welsh language if services or functions under this legislation are to be provided to an individual in Welsh in Wales. The amendment does not make it clear who would be obliged to ensure that those steps were taken, or who would assess and enforce whether the “fluent proficiency” standard was met.

[Liz Saville Roberts]

What the Minister is referring to is the appropriate authorities, because areas related to training and regulation of registered practitioners in Wales are devolved to the Welsh Government. I will be touching on that later, but I would beg him to approach the amendment in that spirit.

[Stephen Kinnock]

I know that we are coming on to the question of appropriate authorities and I absolutely see and understand the spirit in which this amendment is suggested. The challenge is just about the potential for it to lead to operational issues, such as a reduced pool of registered medical practitioners who are able to carry out the function of a co-ordinating doctor under this legislation.

[Liz Saville Roberts]

That is exactly why the amendment includes a reference to “all reasonable steps”. It is with that in mind. This is reflected in other legislation where similar concerns have been expressed.

[Stephen Kinnock]

I thank the right hon. Lady for that. We go back to the point about the true significance of the 2011 Welsh Government Measure, which sets a basic foundation for the duty of the Welsh Government to ensure that Welsh language provision is provided through the Welsh NHS. There is absolutely no debate about that point; that is nailed on. The question is simply how we ensure, if we are to amend this Bill along the lines that the right hon. Lady suggests, that that does not create a lacuna or confusion in the system. I think we need to sit down and discuss that, to ensure that whatever we propose is watertight.

It may be helpful to note, as in discussion of amendment 413, that regardless of this amendment, under the Welsh Language Measure of 2011 the NHS in Wales has a statutory duty to deliver its services to the public in both Welsh and English. That legislation gives the Welsh language official status in Wales, and the Measure states that individuals in Wales should be able to conduct their lives through the medium of Welsh if they choose to do so. The Welsh Government’s active offer for health is intended to support all staff across NHS Wales to provide a service in Welsh for patients without their having to ask for it.

Under amendment 20, regulations made by the Secretary of State on the necessary training, qualifications and experience of the co-ordinating doctor would be required to include mandatory training relating to domestic abuse, including coercive control and financial abuse. Amendments 185 and 186, tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Spen Valley, would require that regulations made by the Secretary of State on the necessary training, qualifications and experience of the co-ordinating doctor covered training related to assessing capacity and whether a person has been coerced or pressured by another person. But I note that, as my hon. Friend the Member for Spen Valley has said, she is minded to support amendment 20, which clearly would ramp up the requirement, as previously discussed.

As I have said, the Government have taken a neutral position on the substantive policy questions relevant to how the law in this area could be changed, but to clarify the intent of the Bill, we have worked with my hon. Friend the Member for Spen Valley in relation to amendments 185 and 186, which would place the Secretary of State under a duty to make regulations regarding the necessary training, qualifications and experience of the co-ordinating doctor. That would include specific training on assessing capacity and assessing whether a person has been subject to coercion or pressure.

I hope that that explanation and those observations have assisted the Committee. I thank hon. Members for their attention.

[Kim Leadbeater]

I rise to speak first to my amendments 185 and 186, which would make important changes to impose a duty on the Secretary of State to make regulations about the training, qualifications and experience required to act as the co-ordinating doctor, as the Minister says. Moving from “may” to “must” would make it a legal requirement that such training take place and would thereby strengthen the Bill. In its present form, the Bill gives the Secretary of State that power to make such regulations but does not legally require him or her to do so.

Amendment 186 would ensure that regulations must include training about

“(a) assessing capacity;

(b) assessing whether a person has been coerced or pressured by any other person.”

Colleagues will appreciate that it is difficult for me to resist the temptation to put the entire training manual in the Bill—we all want to show the thorough approach that has been taken—but doing so would not make for good, clear legislation and can be limited in terms of flexibility and future-proofing. However, given the importance of the matters of capacity and coercion, I felt that it was important that this level of detail be specified in the Bill, because those issues have been at the heart of so many of our deliberations on this hugely sensitive and important issue.

My hon. Friend the Member for Bexleyheath and Crayford, who tabled amendment (a) to my amendment 186, has made a compelling argument, as always. Like my hon. Friend the Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge, I have some concerns that the amendment would limit the number of disabled people who are covered and that it would not cover people with mental disorders, but I understand the concerns around autistic people and those with learning disabilities.

I am also mindful, given that people with Down’s syndrome will typically have some form of learning disability, that amendment (a) may help to address some of the concerns that were expressed yesterday about ensuring that the Bill meets their needs and takes them into consideration. I take on board the Minister’s comments about the Health and Care Act 2022, but I am minded to support the amendment and work with my hon. Friend the Member for Bexleyheath and Crayford and others as necessary to make any further changes as the Bill progresses.

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[Danny Kruger]

I absolutely agree with the right hon. Lady. There is a whole set of challenges, including in England, in respect of the impact assessment and the Bill’s commencement. Nevertheless, my suggestion is that we strengthen her proposal to empower Welsh Ministers to proceed. We should respect the devolution settlement and reflect what she describes as the “correct and rightful powers” of the Welsh Parliament to ultimately decide whether this law were to come into effect in Wales.

[Stephen Kinnock]

Amendments 144 to 171, tabled by the right hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd, relate to the powers and duties vested in the Secretary of State under the Bill. The purpose of the amendments is to change all references throughout the Bill from “Secretary of State” to “appropriate authority”. Amendment 169 defines “appropriate authority” as the Secretary of State in relation to England and as Welsh Ministers in relation to Wales. I note the intent of the promoter of the Bill, my hon. Friend the Member for Spen Valley, that the Bill’s provisions extend and apply to both England and Wales.

The amendments would mean that all the powers and duties vested in the Secretary of State are instead shared between the Secretary of State where they relate to England and Welsh Ministers where they relate to Wales. I would like to put on the record the Government’s continued commitment to devolution and to working with the devolved Governments. Having taken a neutral position on the Bill and the matter of assisted dying, the Government are still committed to working with the Welsh Government to resolve legal and technical issues and discuss constitutional matters that might arise thoughtfully and amicably.

With regard to the phrase “appropriate authority”, the challenge is that in each case throughout the Bill the appropriate authority would be determined by the devolution position of the clause in question—what is the underlying question that the clause seeks to address, and is that a reserved or devolved matter? I have discussed this with parliamentary counsel and others, and the concern is that a blanket provision of this nature may well be premature at this stage. Until we have finalised and determined the constitutional nature and impact of each clause, putting a blanket provision in place may run counter to that process.

[Liz Saville Roberts]

I have a simple question: in relation to the Sewel convention, if not now, when? We should have clarity on these points. I hope the Minister will forgive me if this is slightly longer than an intervention, but he gives me no option in the here and now but to withdraw the amendments, because I will not push them to a vote if it is likely to be lost. However, these are serious questions. How does this respect the Sewel convention? As a Back-Bench MP, I am not in a position to answer that, and I would have expected the Government to provide clarity on these points earlier than Committee stage. I assure the Minister that I will push this issue on Report if we do not have a satisfactory resolution on the Sewel convention.

[Stephen Kinnock]

It is, of course, the right hon. Lady’s prerogative to press amendments as and when she sees fit. I am simply flagging that terminology such as “appropriate authority” risks tying the hands of the legislative process in a way that could have perverse outcomes. A clause that should be the lead responsibility of Welsh Ministers could instead end up in the hands of Secretary of State due to the lack of clarity or relative vagueness of the term “appropriate authority”.

The Government’s suggestion is to work through each clause and be specific about the lead responsibility in each case—is it the Secretary of State or Welsh Ministers? We are open to discussing whether it is better to do it that way or with the terminology “appropriate authority”; we are simply flagging that there are risks associated with that term.

[Liz Saville Roberts]

Before the Minister sits down, will he commit to engaging with me on this issue to identify the specific needs in the spirit of what I have bought forward?

[Stephen Kinnock]

Yes, absolutely, and before Report. Let us ensure that we do that, and that parliamentary counsel is in the room. I am not a constitutional lawyer, so we definitely need people in the room who can speak to these issues. Of course, it also needs to be done in close dialogue with colleagues in the Welsh Government, particularly given what was said earlier about the need for a legislative consent motion.

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[Stephen Kinnock]

Amendments 360 and 361 introduce requirements on the co-ordinating doctor. Amendment 360 would insert an additional condition into the definition of a co-ordinating doctor and would require a co-ordinating doctor who receives financial payment for providing assisted dying to make an annual statement declaring publicly their total turnover from providing the service, the number of people they have assisted and any other information specified in regulations.

The related amendment 361 would require that any regulations specifying the information to be made available must be subject to the affirmative procedure. It is not clear whether the amendments are intended to apply to both private and NHS providers. It could create difficulty if the requirement were to apply to NHS providers, as a doctor is unlikely to know the total turnover from providing an assisted dying service.

As the Bill’s promoter, my hon. Friend the Member for Spen Valley has said that her intent is to ensure that the assisted dying service is available as an integral part of the NHS. Officials are working on amendments to later clauses to establish the operating model for her consideration.

[Rebecca Paul (Reigate) (Con)]

Does the Minister not think the word “remuneration” refers to the amount of income received specifically by the doctor, rather than by any organisation or company?

[Stephen Kinnock]

As my hon. Friend the Member for Stroud has just said, the picture is very complex because there are tariffs for services. Doctors receive a tariff for each service across the entire panoply of everything they do, particularly general practitioners who provide a very wide range of services. They are remunerated on the basis of a tariff that is negotiated in the GP contract between the Department of Health and Social Care and, primarily, the BMA. When a doctor operates in that environment, it is difficult to pick out their turnover from a particular service.

As my hon. Friend the Member for Stroud said, picking out an individual doctor and saying how much money they have made from a particular service, whether assisted dying or any other service, would put a particular focus on that doctor. We are drawing a distinction here with what the tariff could and should be, which we will need to discuss alongside the operating model in later clauses. Moving from being transparent on the tariff to saying, “That doctor over there made this much money from providing this service,” is a whole new ball game.

[Danny Kruger]

I am grateful to the Minister for raising a number of points, including the extraordinary revelation that we are about to find out how the Bill will operate in practice, with amendments yet to be developed even though we have been debating the Bill for a couple of weeks.

The difference between the tariff and a doctor’s income is fine, but if the tariff is to be clearly specified—no doubt it will be—how could it be complicated to determine how many tariffs a particular practice has received? I recognise that there is a separate question about whether it is appropriate to reveal that, but why is it difficult to identify how many individual tariffs a particular practice has received?

The Minister has described the tariff income, but my other concern is about the sponsorship, gifts, hospitality and fees of all sorts that the pharmaceutical companies are always trying to administer. Will he address the question of whether that should be transparent as well?

[Stephen Kinnock]

The challenge in the hon. Gentleman’s amendment is the term “total turnover.” A GP would have to extrapolate from the service provided to a whole range of other costs that may apply—for example, the share of the overhead they pay into their primary care network, the share of admin costs or the rent on their building. The definition of total turnover is the entire cost and entire revenue from the tariffs. As officials have made clear, this additional level of complexity would be an onerous task, although not necessarily impossible.

Total turnover is one side of this issue; the other, much more salient point is the quantum leap between having transparency on a particular tariff and pointing at a specific doctor and saying, “You over there—you did this much work on that much tariff, and that’s how much money you made for it.” There is a big difference between the two.

[Naz Shah]

I also do not like the idea of doctors being identified in such a way, as they have with abortion clinics, but I am trying to understand how we will protect these services. If it is an NHS provision and specialty, with doctors in certain practices signing up to provide services for assisted dying and becoming either the primary or the secondary doctor, by definition those will be the practices to which people will refer. That will become common knowledge, just as it is for musculoskeletal or podiatry services, for example. In this instance, there would be an assisted death service, and there would clearly be practices that do not provide it. How would we then protect the doctors? How will the Government respond to all these concerns?

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[Stephen Kinnock]

If we are specifically talking about the amendments tabled by the hon. Member for East Wiltshire, he is saying that the total turnover from providing this service should be publicly available—it should be published—so I assume he thinks it should be on a website that everybody can see.

My hon. Friend the Member for Bradford West is asking about the knowledge that, if someone wishes to seek an assisted death, they can go to a particular practitioner or service. That is baked into the Bill, and clearly those doctors who wish to opt into the service will be doing so with their eyes open—they will know that they are providing that service. We must ensure that doctors feel protected if there is a sense of risk.

It would of course be deeply regrettable if there were to be threats or risks to doctors, but the evidence from other countries suggests this has not led to some of the deeply unfortunate things we have seen around abortion clinics, for example. It does not seem to have led to that, but of course we as a Government always need to be vigilant in monitoring all our services to ensure that our excellent medical professionals are getting the support they need.

[Rebecca Paul]

I thank the Minister for that useful explanation. Does he agree that the setting of the tariff will be key, because it could either incentivise or disincentivise the provision of the service?

[Stephen Kinnock]

I agree. Like any other aspect of what doctors and general practitioners do, this service is based on remuneration. They are professionals and should be remunerated as such, so the tariff will be important. It is also important that we do not jump ahead into defining the operating model. As I said, officials are working on this with the Bill’s promoter, and it will be made clear when we get to the relevant clauses.

[Kim Leadbeater]

Hopefully the Minister and other colleagues are reassured that, if the Committee agrees to the introduction of the voluntary assisted dying commission, monitoring will be very intense and reporting will be very robust. That might allay some of the fears that have been raised today.

[Stephen Kinnock]

As I have repeatedly said, the Government are neutral on the fundamental question of the Bill, but we are absolutely committed to ensuring it is workable should it receive Royal Assent. The role of the commission will be pivotal in ensuring that the Bill is workable and that all the necessary monitoring and regulation mechanisms are in place.