Dunlop Review

Lord True Excerpts

Monday 1st February 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what action they (1) have taken, and (2) plan to take, as a result of the Dunlop Review into UK Government Union capability.

[The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Lord True) (Con)]

My Lords, we have made progress in many of the areas covered by the noble Lord, Lord Dunlop, and we will set out the Government’s response in full when we publish the review, shortly.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op) [V]]

My Lords, does the Minister recall that it was way back on 4 July 2019 that the noble Lord, Lord Dunlop, was asked to produce a report on measures to strengthen and sustain the union? He delivered his report within six months, and the very Minister who is answering this Question told me, in answer to my Question on 19 November last year, that the report and the Government’s response would be published by the end of that year. So how can we have any confidence in his answer today, that it will be published soon? Why are the Government afraid, or unwilling, to publish this report and their response?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, there is no question of fear—although I always rise to answer the noble Lord with some trepidation. I give the House the best advice I can at the time, and the hope then was to publish by the end of the year. We want to ensure that we provide as full a response to the noble Lord, Lord Dunlop, as possible. As I have told the House before, the key component of that is related to the review of inter-governmental relations, and we are hoping to carry both those strands forward at the same time.

[Lord Browne of Belmont (DUP) [V]]

My Lords, the problems concerning vaccinations that have arisen in recent days clearly demonstrate that it has never been more important to strengthen the bonds that unite the four nations of our United Kingdom. Does the Minister agree that when taking steps to implement the Dunlop review, the Government should seek to remove the serious impediments to trading goods between Great Britain and Northern Ireland resulting from the application of Article 5 of the protocol? Does he accept that if agreement is not reached on these matters at the EU-UK joint committee, it may be necessary to invoke Article 16?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, I can certainly tell the noble Lord that we attach the profoundest importance to all parts of the United Kingdom, particularly Northern Ireland, to which he refers. I do not wish to go into what 1066 and All That would have called the unfortunate events of the weekend, but I assure the noble Lord that we believe that all action in relation to the protocol must be proportionate, and that discussions on this matter will continue.

[Lord Garnier (Con)]

My Lords, does my noble friend agree that if we do not make an effort, Scotland will become a republic separated from the United Kingdom, not because the majority—the moderate majority—want that, but because, to misquote Daniel O’Connell, England’s difficulty is Scotland’s opportunity? Are not the unionists from every part of the United Kingdom letting Ms Sturgeon—Glasgow’s de Valera—hold the floor because they fear confusing English nationalism with patriotic unionism, and are thus failing to make the powerful emotional and obvious economic case for the union?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, in answer to my noble and learned friend’s opening remark about a republic, I cannot conceive that anyone would wish to remove Her Majesty the Queen as our Head of State. As for the other part of his question, everybody should advocate the United Kingdom and our union, and should have no fear in doing so. That goes from the lowest to the highest in the land, and in every corner of our kingdom.

[Lord Hope of Craighead (CB) [V]]

My Lords, the Dunlop review is about meeting the challenge of strengthening and maintaining the union. As each day passes, that task, as seen from Scotland, becomes more and more difficult, and constitutional changes will take time to deliver. Do the Government appreciate that they need to do much more now—from within Scotland, not just from Westminster—to make their voice heard there and their message understood?

[Lord True (Con)]

The noble and learned Lord makes a very strong point. I agree with him—and, indeed, with the preceding question—that that voice for the union of the United Kingdom should be heard. We recognise that political differences exist between the Administration in Scotland and our Government, but our ambition remains to conclude jointly the inter-governmental relations review. That is one of the important strands behind this Question.

[Baroness Bryan of Partick (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, the Dunlop review was completed before the United Kingdom Internal Market Act, so it may already be out of date. The chairs of the Scottish Affairs, Welsh Affairs and Northern Ireland Affairs Committees are as much in the dark as the rest of us. Can the Minister explain how Michael Gove can already be implementing the Dunlop recommendations when he has not even shared the report with the devolved Administrations?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, my right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster is second to none in his commitment to reinforce the United Kingdom and to carry that work forward. So, almost by definition, he is acting constantly every day in line with the aspirations of the Dunlop report.

[Lord Bruce of Bennachie (LD) [V]]

My Lords, sadly, the Prime Minister shows scant understanding of or respect for devolution. At the same time, the First Minister is obsessed with an independence referendum ahead of pandemic recovery but has no coherent or credible plan for how to achieve it. Is not this the moment to publish the Dunlop report and set out how the UK can move forward as four nations working together? How can we have confidence that the Government are implementing the report if they do not publish it?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, I have asked for a little patience from your Lordships’ House, but it will have been noted that you are asking for an early publication. What I would underline is what I said before: that we are working positively with the devolved Administrations in many of the areas covered by Dunlop, particularly to establish new intergovernmental structures. The Prime Minister has established the union policy implementation committee—a Cabinet committee to ensure that the Government’s priorities in relation to the United Kingdom are delivered—and work is going on.

[Lord Caine (Con)]

My Lords, the Dunlop review also includes Northern Ireland. Notwithstanding the findings of some recent internet polls that use a self-selecting online sample, does it remain the Government’s view that a clear majority of the people of Northern Ireland continue to support the union, and that the requirements for a border poll are not satisfied? In the event of such a poll, would it be the policy of this Conservative and Unionist Government to use their union capability to campaign actively to keep Northern Ireland within the United Kingdom?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, the Government are fully committed to the Belfast agreement, which sets out the circumstances that would require a border poll. Those are that, if at any time it appears likely that a majority of those voting would express a wish that Northern Ireland should cease to be part of the UK, they are obliged to call a referendum. The Government continue to monitor the evidence in this regard, but I can tell my noble friend that there is no clear evidence to support the idea that that is the case at this time. I can assure him that, were that ever to happen, this Government would campaign on the basis that the United Kingdom is a family of nations that works for everyone.

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)]

My Lords, those of us who so strongly support the union and its continuation know that it depends on trust, good will and understanding. Does the Minister think that those are helped by what appears to be a suppression of a report on the working of the union?

[Lord True (Con)]

If it were characterised in that way, I do not think it would help. There is certainly no intention to suppress the report; it will be published, as I have told the House. The Government have been involved in constructive discussions with the devolved Administrations on how we secure continuing intergovernmental relations and good institutions to provide for that. I hope to be able to advise the House further on this shortly.

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Lexden) (Con)]

The noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, whose name is next on the list, has withdrawn.

[Viscount Trenchard (Con)]

The BBC, funded by the United Kingdom taxpayer, has reduced the exposure of UK Ministers to television and radio audiences in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland but has greatly increased the exposure of Ministers of the devolved Administrations. This strengthens the perception of separateness and has contributed to a diminution of a feeling of Britishness and an increase in support for independence. Does the Minister not agree that in all parts of the UK much more airtime should be given to UK Ministers, and will he ensure that the incoming chairman and director-general of the BBC will correct the current harmful balance?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, I am not going to issue directions to anyone in terms of the BBC but I will say that some people have certainly found aspects of the coverage confusing and, indeed, perhaps not as optimistic as it might be in certain circumstances. I believe that the nation needs optimism and hope; there should be more emphasis on the joint efforts of the National Health Service, the British Army and other armed services and volunteers right across this country, which deserve the fullest exposure, publicity and support.

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Lexden) (Con)]

My Lords, the time allowed for this Question has now elapsed.

House of Lords: Size

Lord True Excerpts

Wednesday 27th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Grocott]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have to limit the size of the House of Lords.

[The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Lord True) (Con)]

My Lords, given retirements and other departures, some new Members are essential to keep the expertise and the outlook of the Lords fresh. This will ensure that the Lords continues to fulfil its role in scrutinising and revising legislation while respecting the primacy of the Commons.

[Lord Grocott (Lab) [V]]

Can the Minister confirm that in the past 12 months the Prime Minister has appointed 59 new Peers, bringing our total membership to 833, and that, if we continue at anything like this rate, by the end of a five-year Parliament there could be close to 1,000 Peers? Given that this House has suggested practical ways to reduce our numbers, will the Government work with us to achieve this or, if not, is it really government policy to increase our size with no upper limit whatever?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, the Government’s concern is that the House of Lords operates effectively, as I believe it does. The noble Lord who asked the question was a private secretary to a previous Prime Minister, Mr Tony Blair, between 1997 and 2001, when more than 200 Peers were sent to your Lordships’ House. Perhaps it was that painful experience that makes him so militant on this subject.

[Baroness Rawlings (Con) [V]]

My Lords, following the constructive report of the noble Lord, Lord Burns, can the Government consider the proposal that when the Prime Minister appoints new Peers, only a small amount of them are legislators, thus considerably limiting the House’s next intake of new Members?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, my noble friend raises implicitly the question of whether some Peers who are not legislators might be appointed. This idea has been put forward at various times historically. Currently, the position is that they are.

[Baroness Hayman (CB) [V]]

My Lords, when we last debated this issue on 5 January, the Minister said that neither the present nor the previous Prime Minister had assented to any limit on numbers, but the previous Prime Minister did agree to exercise restraint in appointments to the House in response to the Lord Speaker’s letter following the Burns report as part of an overall acceptance of the need to reduce numbers. Is that no longer the Government’s policy?

[Lord True (Con)]

What I said, which I repeat, is that the previous Prime Minister did not accept the committee’s recommendation to commit to a specific cap on numbers, and that remains the position. My right honourable friend Mr Johnson has only recently become Prime Minister. I suggest that we judge him at the end of his term rather than at this time, when, frankly, the Conservative Party has been underrepresented in your Lordships’ House.

[Lord Anderson of Swansea (Lab)]

My Lords, a recent Times editorial, entitled “House of Cronies”, referred to the high proportion of Brexiteers and Tory donors among the 59 new Peers already made by the Prime Minister, in particular the nomination of a Tory donor guilty of corruption and rejected by the Appointments Commission. Does the Prime Minister not recognise that he is tempting any future non-Conservative Government to appoint inflated numbers to balance the old number? Is the Prime Minister really trying to make the House look ridiculous?

[Lord True (Con)]

Absolutely not, my Lords. The perception of the House depends on the behaviour and conduct of the House. I am not going to follow, as I refused to before, any kind of ad hominem attack on any new Member—I welcome them all. As for the comment on Brexiteers, I did not notice a surfeit of those before the last election.

[Lord Rennard (LD)]

The Prime Minister has clearly reneged on the agreement of his predecessor to help curb the size of the House of Lords. He recently overruled the Appointments Commission over a major donor to his party. What does the Minister estimate to be the effect on the House of Lords of the recently announced plans to increase the maximum permitted expenditure by political parties in general elections by a massive 69%?

[Lord True (Con)]

I may be a little obtuse but I do not see the direct connection between general election expenditure and the House of Lords. The House of Lords, for which I have great reverence, is, contrary to many of the things said publicly, extremely good value for the outstanding service that it gives to the country.

[Lord Wigley (PC) [V]]

My Lords, while I certainly support a smaller second Chamber, does the Minister appreciate the frustrations of those of us in smaller parties at the way in which the present arrangement systematically prevents such parties having as numerically strong a voice as they could expect under direct election? To enhance the second Chamber and reduce its size in a fair manner, direct elections would be a credible way forward.

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, I salute the noble Lord for his service to his party and his nation in this House. One of the pleasures that I have had at the Dispatch Box—it has not always been easy—has been hearing the very strong voice for Wales in this House, not only from the noble Lord’s party but from the Benches opposite and other parts of the House. I understand his point. Obviously, one major party, the Scottish National Party, does not offer nominations.

[The Earl of Caithness (Con) [V]]

My Lords, is it not time that we started again at the beginning and the Government decide what they want a second Chamber to do and how it should be constituted, and then decide on the numbers?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, my noble friend makes a strong point. The role and performance of the House are fundamental to the perception of the House, as I said earlier. That is much deeper than some of the froth on this Question and a matter to which not only the Government but all of us need to direct our attention. We are a revising Chamber, and it is as that that we merit our place and reputation.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I find myself in unusual agreement with the noble Earl, Lord Caithness. The fact is that form should follow the function of this House. It is about not some academic interest in the size of the House, but the optimum size and balance between the party groups that allows us to do our work most effectively. We can be effective as a House and helpful to the Government, as is evident in the number of amendments passed by your Lordships’ House that the Government agree to and put into legislation. I put it to the Minister that if the Prime Minister’s approach is to continue to prioritise the appointment of Government-supporting Peers, that balance fails and the value of the House falls. They cannot just ram through legislation with ever-increasing government numbers. Does the Prime Minister respect the role and value of your Lordships’ House?

[Lord True (Con)]

I am certain that my right honourable friend respects the role and place of your Lordships’ House, as, I believe, for all the difficulties that there have been at times, previous Prime Ministers of all parties have. It is reasonable that the House of Lords has been refreshed. As long as it is a nominated House, that should remain the case. On the question of 600 Members, which is often mentioned, I remind your Lordships that there have only been two Divisions in your Lordships’ House since 2015 in which more than 600 people voted.

[Baroness D’Souza (CB) [V]]

My Lords, it is long accepted that the House of Lords is a self-regulating Chamber. Does the Minister therefore agree that the House can itself implement its collective wish that the number of participating Peers be limited?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, this was brought up in a previous exchange, I believe by the noble Lord, Lord Jay of Ewelme. The problem with the proposition posited by the noble Baroness is that an unelected House should determine who should become its Members and how many there should be. I am afraid that this is a House of Parliament, not a gentlemen’s club and the membership of the House must, at the end of the day, have political accountability. The line of political accountability goes to the Queen’s principal adviser, who is the incumbent Prime Minister.

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Faulkner of Worcester) (Lab)]

My Lords, the time allowed for this Question has elapsed. I apologise to the two noble Lords I was unable to call.

SolarWinds Cyberattack

Lord True Excerpts

Monday 25th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Clement-Jones]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the SolarWinds cyberattack, first reported on 13 December 2020; and what action they are taking in response.

[The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Lord True) (Con)]

My Lords, this is a complex and global cyber incident. There is an ongoing, cross-government response and we are working with international partners to fully understand its scale and any UK impact.

[Lord Clement-Jones (LD) [V]]

My Lords, the Minister has pretty much repeated what the NCSC said back in December. This was one of the largest and most sophisticated cloud and software cyberattacks ever. SolarWinds’ customers included the Home Office, the MoD, the NHS, the Royal Navy, the Cabinet Office and several local authorities. Surely there has been time to evaluate and at least start countering the impact, identify the source and communicate with those potentially affected? Microsoft has been very transparent in its communications. Is it not time that the Government did likewise?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Lord will understand the sensitivities of these questions. I beg him to understand that work is ongoing and will take some time. However, we are already well placed to respond, thanks to our national cybersecurity strategy. Simply having SolarWinds does not automatically make an organisation vulnerable. The National Cyber Security Centre is working to mitigate any potential risk and guidance has been published on its website.

[Lord Vaizey of Didcot (Con)]

My Lords, the Government have a very impressive record on cybersecurity, but I note that our current public strategy is dated 2016-21. Can my noble friend set out when the Government plan to publish their forward strategy, 2021-25? Will that include the important role that the UK can play internationally in establishing cyber norms?

[Lord True (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for his comments. He is, of course, right that the current five-year strategy expires this year. The next iteration of the strategy is being developed and is expected to be published this year. This will set out the direction and ambition for the UK to be a continuing leader in cybersecurity, in line with the priorities of the integrated review. It will also set out how the UK will step up its efforts to shape the global rules, as my noble friend commented.

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I refer to my interests as set out in the register. The response from the noble Lord has been complacent. A large number of systems in the national infrastructure use SolarWinds software and have been compromised. The House has not been told how many. Will the Intelligence and Security Committee be briefed on the full extent and implications? There is a wider question: does reliance on such commercial software solutions not create a single point of failure for our security and economy, as multiple systems—otherwise unrelated—can be penetrated simultaneously, potentially leading to a catastrophic collapse?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, the Government’s response is anything but complacent. I had hoped that I had made that clear, but I will say it again. The Government’s response is not complacent. The NCSC is working to mitigate any potential risk. Actionable guidance has been published through its website. We urge organisations to take immediate steps to protect their networks. We will continue to update as we learn more.

[Baroness Bowles of Berkhamsted (LD) [V]]

A congressional commission has given President Biden a 15-point list of priorities for reducing the probability of, and addressing recovery from, cyberattacks. Will the Government be referencing that plan as part of assessing UK preparedness, and discussing measures similarly with Parliament?

[Lord True (Con)]

The noble Baroness makes an important point about international co-operation. She is quite right to say that malicious activity knows no boundaries. We regularly discuss cybersecurity with a range of international partners, including the G7, sharing our analysis of threats and our experience. I can give an assurance that we will continue to do so.

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)]

FireEye, which uncovered the attack, judged that the tradecraft involved was consistent with state-sponsored actors. Microsoft’s Brad Smith described it as “a moment of reckoning”; it was “not ‘espionage as usual’” but

“an act of recklessness that created a serious technological vulnerability for the United States”

and beyond. Joe Biden has now promised to make cyber-security a top priority given the recent digital espionage. How have the Government responded to President Biden, since this does not appear to have been covered in the phone call that he had with the Prime Minister?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, perhaps the noble Baroness has better information than I do on the call between the President and the Prime Minister. The Government are certain that cybersecurity is absolutely at the heart of our overall defence need and defence capability. I repeat: we will work with all friendly allies in that area. The UK considers attribution on a case-by-case basis, but I do not have anything further for the House at this stage.

[Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)]

My Lords, does my noble friend agree that one of the greatest lessons from SolarWinds is that the basics need to be right—password management, multifactor authentication and so on? Can he confirm that this is understood across the public sector and in all arm’s-length bodies, and that securing the supply chain is a constant and urgent need? Further, would he agree that in the UK we have an excellent cyber community, with private firms such as NCC and world-leading public institutions such as the NCSC? The Government should do everything to support this cyber industry so that it can do everything to protect us.

[Lord True (Con)]

My noble friend makes some important points. Obviously recognising the increasing importance of this area, the government security group is leading the development of a government cybersecurity strategy—which will sit underneath the national strategy —to deal with some of the issues my noble friend refers to. We also have a wide range of advice and support to help private sector organisations protect themselves.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP) [V]]

My Lords, my question follows on from that of the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Haringey, and concerns resilience and the impact on operational technology, rather than simply IT, where experts say it may take months for difficulties to appear. Credible analyses suggest that the simple network management protocol—SNMP—fails to meet the tests of confidentiality, integrity and availability. It is not going to be replaced quickly, but are the Government at least looking at ways in which it can be reinforced across their own systems, while ensuring that that happens right across vital private systems in our country?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, I apologise; I found it quite hard to catch every part of the noble Baroness’s question. I hope this is not an inadequate answer, but I am unable to comment on operational detail at this stage. However, as I have assured the House, the NCSC is working to mitigate all potential risks, and this work is ongoing.

[Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, SolarWinds highlights concerns about the growing privatisation of cybersecurity attacks through a new generation of private companies, described in a recent Microsoft blog as

“akin to 21st-century mercenaries”

who offer

“the option for nation-states to either build or buy the tools needed for sophisticated cyberattacks.”

Already the US is battling one such company in their courts. Can we be assured that the Government’s review will consider whether our cyber capability and regulatory infrastructure is fit for purpose in the face of this emerging threat?

[Lord True (Con)]

I agree with the noble Lord on the importance of sustaining and improving that capability. The Government are certainly giving attention to that—seeking to promote cyber skills and to encourage a sustainable pipeline of homegrown cybersecurity talent, and protecting our critical infrastructure. That is a key part of the strategy going forward. The noble Lord is quite right that, currently, the demand for cybersecurity skills outstrips supply. We must mend that issue.

[Lord Jones of Cheltenham (LD) [V]]

My Lords, I used to write encryption software. Why does the trade and co-operation agreement recommend using encryption and hashing algorithms, which are both outdated and vulnerable to cyberattacks? It makes us look silly in the eyes of the technology world and just encourages hackers.

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, sadly I do not share the technical capacity of the noble Lord, but I will ensure that he has a reply adequate to the level of his much higher understanding.

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Lexden) (Con)]

My Lords, the time allowed for this Question has elapsed. We now come to the second Oral Question.

G7 Summit

Lord True Excerpts

Thursday 21st January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what outcomes they hope to achieve at the G7 Summit due to be held in the United Kingdom in 2021.

[The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Lord True) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government have developed an ambitious agenda for the UK’s G7 presidency, which focuses on building back better for all. The Prime Minister will welcome the leaders of the world’s leading democracies in June to address shared challenges, from beating coronavirus and tackling climate change to ensuring that people everywhere can benefit from open trade, technological change and scientific discovery.

[Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I hope that today we are all celebrating President Biden’s decision to sign up again to the Paris Agreement on climate change. I hope that the Government recognise the critical importance of the G7 summit, building towards COP 26 in November and decisive action on climate change. Do the Government also recognise that the best global businesses are crying out for leadership on the sustainable development goals, the framework that provides us with the opportunity to genuinely build back better? Will the Government ensure that those goals are on the agenda for the G7?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, certainly, one of the key declared aims of the G7 presidency is tackling climate change and preserving the planet’s biodiversity, as I stated. I can certainly tell the noble Lord that we very much welcome the prospect of bringing the COP 26 UN climate conference to Glasgow, to Scotland, in November and will be working on the important agenda that the noble Lord outlines.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP) [V]]

Following the question of the noble Lord, Lord McConnell, I was going to ask about the climate emergency. However, following the Minister’s answer, it is also important to ask: will the Government also focus on the social elements of our sustainable development goals, such as ending poverty and hunger, and dealing with inequality?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, obviously those objectives are encompassed in the agenda set out by the Prime Minister. Promoting future prosperity for all is vital. Incidentally, I am certain that the noble Baroness will welcome the invitation to the Government of Australia to participate.

[Baroness Sugg (Con)]

My Lords, on Tuesday, President Biden announced the formation of a White House gender policy council and committed to restoring America as a champion of women and girls, which is welcome news. I fully support the Prime Minister’s continued focus on girls’ education but can my noble friend the Minister tell me how the UK will work with the United States and other partners to ensure that the wider issue of gender inequality, which has of course been exacerbated by Covid-19, will be properly addressed at the G7 summit?

[Lord True (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for her important question. The Prime Minister has agreed to convene a gender equality advisory council that will report to the G7 leaders and drive an ambitious agenda to ensure that the disproportionate impact of Covid-19 on women is recognised and the importance of gender equality is at the heart of an inclusive recovery. I thank my noble friend for her work and leadership in this area. The council will be part of her legacy.

[Baroness Hayman (CB) [V]]

My Lords, I declare my interests and very much endorse the Minister’s reply to his noble friend Lady Sugg and his comments about her. I also welcome his response to the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord McConnell, with which I totally agree. I welcome the emphasis that the Government are putting on beating the pandemic and future pandemic planning. However, does the Minister accept that we must recognise the importance of continuing support for ongoing global health programmes—such as that on malaria, where the UK has been a world leader—not only because they save the lives of hundreds of thousands of children every year but because they provide vital health infrastructure for the fight against future diseases?

[Lord True (Con)]

I thank the noble Baroness with her great experience for her kind comments. I can assure her that the United Kingdom remains committed to the research and development needed to fight all pandemics worldwide. One of the highest moments of my lifetime was the eradication of smallpox, and I am certain that the eradication of these great diseases, one of which the noble Baroness referred to, will remain an objective for all of us.

[Lord Morris of Aberavon (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I wish the Government well in their participation in the summit. What new ideas do they intend to put forward in view of the increasing awareness of climate change? Will we suggest any positive steps that President Biden could now take, having overturned Trump’s policies?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, it would be slightly impertinent of me on President Biden’s first day in office to set out an agenda for him. I think we all look forward to hearing that. I say again that we look forward to the COP 26 conference in Scotland. Within the G7 period and leading up to it, we will keep tackling climate change and preserving biodiversity will be at the heart of our efforts.

[Lord Oates (LD) [V]]

Does the Minister believe that the Government’s decision to refuse full diplomatic status to the EU ambassador to the UK will help or hinder our ability to build the consensus needed for a successful G7 summit? While he is at it, will he explain why the UK, uniquely in the world, would take such a staggeringly petty, pointless and self-harming decision?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, we have slightly moved away from the rather positive and optimistic approach of this discussion so far. The G7 will embrace the presence of the EU, as always, and of major democracies in the European Union.

[Lord Herbert of South Downs (Con)]

My Lords, the Prime Minister has set a priority for the G7 to develop manufacturing capacity for treatments and vaccines to prevent future pandemics, and that is very welcome. However, there is an existing pandemic other than Covid—tuberculosis—which still kills 1.5 million people a year and for which there is no effective adult vaccine. That is why research and development investment to develop new tools is so important. Will my noble friend commit to protecting that investment, particularly that made by the Foreign, Commonwealth & Development Office, despite the regrettable cut in the ODA budget?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, having not ventured to offer an agenda to President Biden, I am certainly not going to offer one to the Chancellor. As with the answer on malaria earlier, obviously, fighting a key disease is a vital common international task. The United Kingdom has been one of the biggest donors to the World Health Organization and one of the biggest supporters of vaccine development.

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, earlier this week, Theresa May said that we must bring people together in common cause, but to lead we must live up to our values. She regretted the UK abandoning its 0.7% commitment. Will the Minister detail the Government’s strategy for engaging members in the coming months to ensure that the UK summit turns the tide and brings leaders behind a common message on the post-Covid recovery?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, I know the noble Lord’s personal commitment to some of the causes set out in the G7 agenda. I think there is a wide area of agreement here. I understand the points made about overseas aid, but we will still be allocating £10,000 million to overseas aid. Based on the latest OECD data, the UK will remain the second-highest donor in the G7.

[The Earl of Sandwich (CB) [V]]

My Lords, since the UK is a world leader in setting targets, will the Prime Minister urge the G7 countries, as part of their climate agenda, to set targets for developing countries to step up investment in clean energy and green technology, and to provide technical assistance in developing their non-oil private sector?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, of course, one hopes that all nations will assent to these high ideals, including, for example, China.

[Baroness Warsi (Con) [V]]

My Lords, this follows on from what my noble friend has just said. To build better societies and economies, we need to ensure that all have the opportunity to thrive, free from persecution. In light of the United States recognition of the persecution of Uighurs in China as genocide, will my noble friend confirm that the UK will raise this as an issue for discussion and ask for a co-ordinated response at the G7?

[Lord True (Con)]

I strongly support what my noble friend said and pay tribute to her work in fighting international injustice. Anyone who read my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary’s Statement to the other place on 12 January in response to human rights violations in Xinjiang against the Uighur people will understand this country’s resolve. We call on other nations to show the same resolve on this deeply troubling question.

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Lexden) (Con)]

My Lords, the time allowed for this Question has now elapsed.

Constitution, Democracy and Human Rights Commission

Lord True Excerpts

Thursday 14th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Young of Cookham]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government when they plan to establish the Constitution, Democracy and Human Rights Commission.

[The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Lord True) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government remain absolutely committed to looking at the broader aspects of the constitution and the relationship between the Government, Parliament and the courts, as pledged in our manifesto. We are taking forward the work via a range of work- streams, some of which have already been announced, such as the Independent Review of Administrative Law. Others will be announced in due course.

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

My Lords, our manifesto said:

“In our first year we will set up a Constitution, Democracy & Rights Commission.”


This was confirmed on 29 January last year, when the noble Earl, Lord Howe, said:

“We will set up the commission within this Government’s first year. Further announcements will be made in due course.”—[Official Report, 29/1/20; col. 1437.]


Since then, silence. But the Library tells me that the Government have established seven other independent reviews and one public inquiry. So, for the fourth time, I ask the Government for a debate in which they set out their emerging thoughts and your Lordships set out their priorities. We can then move forward on a broad basis of support that commands public confidence.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, as a very experienced Minister himself, my noble friend knows that debates are matters for the usual channels. He asked about progress with a constitutional review. I have indicated that the Government are determined to pursue this in a range of independent workstreams. That has begun in the first year with the Independent Review of Administrative Law.

[Baroness Quin (Lab) [V]]

I support the words of the noble Lord, Lord Young, and urge a cross-party and non-party approach to these issues; otherwise, what emerges from the Government’s plans will lack credibility. Before we lurch into any more divisive or closely fought referendums, can we please try to have cross-party and wide agreement on when referendums should be used in our parliamentary democracy, perhaps by following some of the recommendations in the report of the House of Lords cross-party Constitution Committee published a few years ago?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, the Government are not seeking referendums, although I understand that another political party in the kingdom is. We will not go in that direction. I certainly agree that cross-party approaches are desirable. Another constitutional issue that we are addressing is fixed-term Parliaments, which the Government have put forward for pre-legislative scrutiny by a cross-party Joint Committee.

[The Lord Bishop of Birmingham [V]]

My Lords, I welcome the request from the noble Lord, Lord Young, and the call from the noble Baroness, Lady Quin, for a cross-party, independent approach to this. Were the commission to make a primary objective strengthening the union and a Parliament working for the whole United Kingdom, does the Minister agree that it should give serious consideration to the devolution of power in England away from Westminster, whether to regional mayors, assemblies or even an English assembly?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, those concepts are obviously extremely important and are no doubt the subject of continuing discussion in and across all parties. As the right reverend Prelate will know, regional assemblies were proposed by a previous Government and rejected by the electorate.

[Lord Norton of Louth (Con) [V]]

My Lords, given the sheer scale of the disparate constitutional reforms that have taken place in recent decades and that derive from no intellectually coherent approach to constitutional change, does my noble friend agree that we need a body that can stand back and make sense of where we are, that is grounded in an understanding of our constitution—qua constitution—and that does not rush in with knee-jerk reactions and ill-thought-through proposals for more change?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, I am not sure about the proposition of a body. I think that, ultimately, authority to determine must reside in Parliament and in part in your Lordships’ House. I hope that we will have debates and discussion. I agree with my noble friend that a lot of change was ill thought through, but I assure noble Lords that the Government intend to proceed cautiously and with independent advice.

[Lord Tyler (LD) [V]]

My Lords, does the Cabinet Office recognise that more piecemeal changes to the constitution and to electoral law, such as No. 10 taking back control of the Prorogation and Dissolution of Parliament, weakening controls on election spending and attacking the independence and integrity of the Electoral Commission, break the manifesto promise, which has been referred to, of a comprehensive constitution commission, set up to take evidence in the first 12 months of this Government?

[Lord True (Con)]

No, my Lords. I do not accept the characterisation of my right honourable friend the Prime Minister by the noble Lord, Lord Tyler. I must say that the Liberal Democrat party has never been slow to come forward with radical changes to the constitution with very little consultation with others.

[Lord Howell of Guildford (Con) [V]]

My Lords, this is a big canvas but, given the enormous impact of the communications revolution and the ever more powerful media platforms’ monopolies on trust in government, on parliamentary constitutional authority, on the unity of the UK itself and on our future national direction, can we be assured that the commission’s remit when it is set up covers these fundamental issues, as many people are asking for, as well as more conventional areas of constitutional reform?

[Lord True (Con)]

Aside from the question of whether it be under the ambit of a commission, I believe that my noble friend puts his finger on something that is profoundly important about the way in which the context of politics and government is changing. Without treading on anyone’s feet, I would certainly be interested to hear your Lordships’ opinion on that in a future debate.

[Lord Carlile of Berriew (CB) [V]]

Please could the noble Lord explain simply to a perplexed audience the relationship between Sir Peter Gross’s review of the Human Rights Act, the review by the noble Lord, Lord Faulks, of administrative law and the constitution, democracy and human rights commission being discussed today?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, those are two separate workstreams as part of the constitutional reform consideration that we are undertaking. As my right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster said, we are eating the elephant in chunks. The Fixed-term Parliaments Act review is another part, so there are already three strands and they each deserve careful and individual attention.

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)]

Assuming that the commission will go ahead—although I am not absolutely sure, from what the Minister said, that it will—then, following up on what my noble friend Lady Quin and the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Birmingham said, it will have public support only if it is truly independent. Will the Government commit that the commission, when it is appointed, will be independent and non-partisan and ensure that its members are not beholden either to the Government or indeed to any other special interest?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, I have said that the Government are delivering the commitment in the manifesto to look at the broader aspects of the constitution in a range of separate workstreams. Obviously, this and others to be announced in due course will all reflect what the noble Baroness has said and what I have said—indeed, that is the case for those reviews that have been set up already and the cross-party Joint Committee that is looking at the FTPA.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD) [V]]

My Lords, I wish to repeat what the noble Lord, Lord Young, said in his opening question, which is that any constitutional reform needs to have broad-based support that inspires public confidence. How do the Conservative Party and its associated right-wing think tanks, eating the elephant in chunks and bending the conventions of the constitution in the way that it has in the last year, begin to deal with public alienation from politics and holding the union of Great Britain together?

[Lord True (Con)]

I think that on reflection the noble Lord will think that he does a disservice to those serving on the Independent Review of Administrative Law, those reviewing under Sir Peter Gross the operation of the Human Rights Act and indeed Members of both Houses on the Joint Committee when he characterises them in that way.

[Baroness D’Souza (CB) [V]]

My Lords, the broad and radical mandate of the proposed commission would indeed be better managed in bite sizes, as the Minister has suggested. Do Her Majesty’s Government have plans to expand the deliberative democracy initiatives that they have so far sponsored in Dudley, Cambridge and the Test Valley?

[Lord True (Con)]

I am grateful for the noble Baroness’s support for the approach that I have outlined. On her specific question, I cannot give a commitment on that at the Dispatch Box now, but I will repeat what I have said to the House: other workstreams on constitutional review will be announced in due course.

[The Deputy Speaker (The Earl of Kinnoull) (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, the time allowed for this Question has now elapsed.

Protocol on Northern Ireland: Disruption to Trade

Lord True Excerpts

Thursday 14th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, shoppers in Northern Ireland supermarkets were surprised to find competitors’ products on the shelves. Of greater concern, some products have disappeared entirely, with the Government saying that

“the situation is likely to get worse before it gets better.”

This is unacceptable. Michael Gove admitted yesterday that mistakes had been made, but that is not good enough and it fails to explain why the Government did not prepare for something that they had been warned about for more than a year. It is just shambolic. The protocol is not perfect, but it needs to be made to work. I have two questions for the Minister. Why did Ministers spend so much of last year denying the challenges, leaving it to business to make contingency plans? I also ask him to explain what urgent steps the Government are taking to get shelves stocked and trade moving today.

[The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Lord True) (Con)]

My Lords, it is important that we are clear about the overall picture. One must not overstate individual anecdotes into a systemic picture. I acknowledge that there have been issues—that was never denied—but, overall, goods are continuing to flow effectively. Supermarkets are able to move their lorries into Northern Ireland. There are some specific issues, as we have seen with individual suppliers, but it is holding up well overall. The UK Government will continue to work with supermarkets, retailers and suppliers to move in the longer run to end-to-end digital systems that enable goods to be moved in accordance with the protocol in the most streamlined way possible.

[Baroness Ludford (LD) [V]]

My Lords, the Government, led by the Prime Minister, put ideology over practicality and deception over honesty in the pursuit of Brexit. The claim made by the noble Lord, Lord True, in last Friday’s debate that,

“the flow of goods under the Northern Ireland protocol is smooth overall”—[Official Report, 8/1/21; col. 442.]—

an answer he has just repeated—is contested by seven supermarket bosses. The Answer to this UQ is somewhat of an improvement on those rather complacent claims, but only when the Government are totally honest about the fact that there is a border within the UK can they start to resolve the practical difficulties of the protocol. When will that total honesty appear?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, the Government have been honest and have not been ideological. My right honourable friend the Prime Minister simply implemented the instructions of the British people—some noble Lords have not yet caught up with that. Goods are flowing effectively between Great Britain and Northern Ireland overall, with more than 1,000 trucks a day. I have acknowledged that there are certain difficulties and issues, but we must not overstate them and we are working pragmatically to address them.

[Baroness Meyer (Con) [V]]

Can the Minister reassure the House that nothing in the Northern Ireland protocol will prevent Northern Ireland businesses taking advantage of the UK’s new trade agreements? Can he also confirm that its businesses will not suffer any harm resulting from possible tariff retaliation against the EU by states such as the US?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, I can confirm for my noble friend that Northern Ireland exporters will, as will those in the rest of the United Kingdom, be able to take full advantage of trade deals we strike with third countries. Certainly, we will not be participating in trade wars between third countries.

[Lord Rooker (Lab) [V]]

One of the key lessons I took when briefly a Minister in Northern Ireland was the vital importance of attention to detail. Is not the Prime Minister’s lack of attention to detail the cause of chucking the Falklands to the Argentine, Gibraltar to Spain and Northern Ireland to the Republic? What is the Cabinet Office doing about the effect of Annexe 7 on the operation of Article 16 of the protocol?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, I do not agree with the noble Lord in his overall characterisation of the position. This Government are absolutely resolute that Northern Ireland remains an integral part of the United Kingdom and will remain so as long as its people determine. As I have acknowledged to the House, certain practical issues have arisen; these are being addressed maturely and sensibly by the Government, suppliers and business, and I believe that that is the way we should proceed, without, at this stage, talking about Article 16.

[Lord Caine (Con)]

My Lords, I welcome the Government’s efforts to iron out what we all hope are teething troubles, and also the commitments made yesterday by the Prime Minister that they will do whatever is necessary to ensure that goods can move freely from Great Britain to Northern Ireland. Whatever one’s view of the protocol, can my noble friend assure the House that it does not in any way change Northern Ireland’s constitutional status, which, under the terms of the Acts of Union and the consent provisions of the Belfast agreement, remains a full and integral part of our United Kingdom?

[Lord True (Con)]

Yes, my noble friend is right: the protocol and our implementation of it fully protects Northern Ireland’s status as an integral part of our United Kingdom. That must remain the case. As I have said, there are teething problems and we have to address these, but if they ever become disproportionate, then that is the time, as my right honourable friend the Prime Minister said, when further action would have to be considered.

[Lord Morrow (DUP) [V]]

The Minister has acknowledged that there are problems and difficulties at the ports and elsewhere, and it is reported that some freight companies are losing tens of thousands of pounds per week because of the confusion that reigns there. We also have a problem with a Secretary of State who refuses to acknowledge that there is, in fact, a border at all. Will the Minister give his assessment today of the impact that the protocol and the sea border will have on the Northern Ireland economy? In light of the Prime Minister’s comments yesterday, will he clarify the specific conditions in which the Government would act to invoke Article 16 of the protocol and restore unfettered market access for goods moving from Northern Ireland to the rest of the United Kingdom’s internal market?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, I can certainly give the noble Lord the assurance that we will work extremely hard to overcome difficulties. As I just said in reply to my noble friend Lord Caine, the Prime Minister stated the position on the record in the House of Commons yesterday as far as Article 16 is concerned. Obviously, I stand by his words. As for movement of traffic, everybody should feel that they can and must send goods to every part of our kingdom normally. Flows of trucks into Belfast are now normal. There have been issues at Holyhead, but movements there are increasing and we hope to see that trend continue.

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Russell of Liverpool) (CB)]

I apologise for leap-frogging over the next speaker, the noble Lord, Lord Lilley.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Lilley (Con)]

Will my noble friend remind the House that the Northern Ireland protocol, as was made clear by our Attorney-General and the EU itself, is intrinsically temporary because the EU, under Article 50, was unable to enter into permanent trade agreements? This is why it could not even start negotiating a trade agreement with us until after we had left. However, as we resolve, by patches and devices, the structural problems that will grow because of the differences between EU legislation and our own, to avoid a barrier in the Irish Sea we will develop means that will enable us to apply the same mechanisms to avoid having a barrier or any infrastructure between Northern Ireland and the Republic when the Northern Ireland protocol fades away.

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, we are addressing specific issues—for example, steel announcements and groupage announcements are imminent—and there will be what my noble friend calls “patches”. Obviously, in the longer run the protocol’s existence will be determined by the people of Northern Ireland.

[Baroness Altmann (Con) [V]]

My Lords, can my noble friend explain what will happen at the end of the three-month grace period if there is no rollover of the EU’s decision not to apply its rules in full? Does he accept that this situation is already arising, when our standards have not yet diverged from those of the EU, and will accelerate after any divergence? I reiterate my apology to the people of Northern Ireland for the fact that the implications of Brexit were never fully and openly explained, although they must have been obvious right at the start.

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, I am not following any further the comment that people did not understand where they were when decisions were taken on whether to leave. I believe that we should all leave that behind us. On the specific question, at the end of the grace period, as I said in an earlier reply, the UK will continue to work with supermarkets and retailers. We have a dedicated group of officials working on this. We are seeking new end-to-end digital systems that will enable goods to be moved in accordance with the protocol in the most streamlined way, and this will be backed by a major injection of UK government funding as part of a broader support package. However, it behoves all sides under this agreement, including the EU, to behave in a proportionate manner.

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Russell of Liverpool) (CB)]

My Lords, the time allowed for this Question has elapsed.

Elections: May 2021

Lord True Excerpts

Thursday 14th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)]

My Lords, this May has a record number of polls, involving every elector in the country. If America can organise its massive ballot, surely we can also vote, especially since some of these elections are now a year overdue. I therefore ask the Government to assure the House that they will not run away from these votes. Will they also ensure that we use all the normal polling stations and not reduce their number, as I hear is happening in some places? That would not only produce dangerous crowds but would also disfranchise those who could not travel further to polling stations, particularly, of course, people with a disability.

[The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Lord True) (Con)]

My Lords, I certainly assure the noble Baroness that the Government believe that safe and secure elections are the cornerstone of any democracy. The law is that these elections should go ahead on this date. The Prime Minister said that all matters are always under review, as they are in a pandemic. People then seemed to ride away and say that that was an indication that they would be postponed, but, as the Minister for the Constitution said in the other place yesterday, a very high bar would have to be set to not proceed with these elections. As far as her comments about returning officers, they obviously look at polling stations, but I will take note of the points the noble Baroness made. Certainly, voting should be easy.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD) [V]]

I hope I can get the Minister to add that local democracy is absolutely part of the foundation to any effective constitutional democracy, which is one of the reasons why we have to be very careful about postponing these elections further. I thank the Minister for the Statement and I thank Bradford Council for the very extensive briefing it gave me this morning on the difficulties. Can the Minister assure us that, since elections are so fundamental to democracy, as such, any decision will be taken not by the Government alone but in full consultation with all other parties contesting the elections? Given the difficulty of campaigning under current circumstances, will the Government be prepared to consider providing, for example, two pieces of free post to every nominated candidate, to make sure that parties which have more easy access to funds do not get disproportionate benefits from being able to pay for post?

[Lord True (Con)]

As the noble Lord knew I would, I thoroughly endorse the first remark he made. I believe local democracy is the cornerstone, and I wish that were more widely recognised. The Government will continue to engage with political parties to ensure that people are able to campaign safely and securely and to secure information. As far as his specific proposal is concerned, I will certainly make sure that that is fed into consideration.

[Lord Hayward (Con)]

My Lords, I welcome the Government’s response to the Urgent Question yesterday—both the commitment to having elections on 6 May and to minimising unnecessary face-to-face campaigning. In that spirit, may I ask a question similar to one asked by the noble Lord, Lord Rennard, in a Written Question, a few weeks ago? Will the Government urgently introduce changes to the requirement for registered parties to seek large numbers of nomination signatures for each campaign? We already have election campaigns where signatures are not necessary, and I request that similar procedures are introduced for all elections on 6 May.

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for his remarks. There are no plans to change the number of signatures required for nomination in May 2021, or to allow nominations to be accepted by email. Although returning officers may allow parts of the nominations process to be carried out online, such as the arrangement of necessary documents, final nomination papers have to be delivered in person. The Government have considered these issues with the electoral sector and Public Health England, and they are of the view that the current process can be carried out in a Covid-secure way.

[Lord Reid of Cardowan (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I suspect that we have another definite maybe from the Prime Minister, who says “We will go ahead”. And yet, if the Government proceed with the elections in May in the normal fashion, in the midst of a pandemic, with half the electorate not yet vaccinated, unlike what the Minister said yesterday—

“the very idea that somebody would be forced to choose between their health and their vote is simply not an issue”—[Official Report, Commons, 13/1/21; col. 314.]

there will be precisely that issue. Can the Government give us a definite answer—for once—and get ahead of the curve and make a definite decision now whether they are to proceed or to put alternative arrangements in place in good time? Another late U-turn will cause great anger and great confusion.

[Lord True (Con)]

I certainly agree with the noble Lord that clarity is important. The planning assumption in the law is that we are proceeding with these elections. I take the point that he makes about people who are shielding or unable to go to the polling station. That is why, under the current considerations, we are looking at, for example, enhanced arrangements for proxy voting for those affected by Covid. We believe, in concert with those authorities involved, that it would be possible to proceed safely.

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

Further to the question of the noble Lord, Lord Reid, it must be right to encourage as many people as possible to vote by post, as Covid will still be with us and many people will not have been vaccinated. When local authorities send out the council tax demand at the beginning of March, should they not include details of how to register for postal votes, and perhaps even include a form?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, characteristically, my noble friend makes an interesting and novel suggestion, which I will certainly ensure is passed on to those involved. But I repeat: we must have a high bar for even a short postponement of democracy, and any such decision would certainly never be taken lightly or rushed into. The Government will continue to work with the electoral community on the matter.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op) [V]]

My Lords, since health conditions are likely to be similar throughout the whole of the United Kingdom in May, and there are parliamentary elections planned for Wales and Scotland, what discussions are Her Majesty’s Government having with the devolved Administrations to make sure that there is a uniform decision throughout the United Kingdom as far as elections are concerned?

[Lord True (Con)]

As the noble Lord knows, there have been by-elections in Scotland. But it is for the Scottish and Welsh Governments to take decisions around polls which are within their competence. I can assure him that, in line with our approach elsewhere, all three Governments will try to co-ordinate our work, where possible. The UK Government continue to have regular discussions with counterparts in Scotland and Wales on delivering the polls in May.

[Baroness Warsi (Con) [V]]

My Lords, following on from the last question, in the interests of public health, what consideration has been given to holding the elections in May this year in England and Wales over a period of days, as opposed to on a single day, as is being proposed in Scotland?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, our belief is that the elections can go ahead in the normal way in a safe and secure manner—and that is our objective—with the kinds of safeguards to which I have referred for those shielding and others.

[Lord Mann (Non-Afl) [V]]

My local GP surgery is not allowed to give the Covid vaccine under NHS England guidelines because it has only one door in and the same door out. The building next to it is the local polling station, with exactly the same entrance and exit situation. Why have returning officers not been given the same guidance that GP practices have about which buildings are safe for polling using the NHS criteria?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, the electoral authorities are in contact with those in local government who are involved in delivering places for the vote, which ultimately is returning officers. They will take a number of factors into account in considering the safety of premises, and I am sure that they will secure safety.

[Lord Dubs (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that returning officers and political parties need the maximum notice to prepare for elections? The Minister used the expression “the planning assumption”. That seems to be bureaucratic gobbledegook for saying “We have not quite made up our minds”. Does the Minister agree that it is essential that we have a clear indication for local authorities and political parties as soon as possible, so we all know where we are in preparation for the campaign?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, I apologise for being guilty of bureaucratic gobbledegook. At the risk of repeating an earlier answer, the most unprecedented pandemic for generations is raging in this country. Occasionally, the Government are taken to task for not being cautious and advisory, but—I repeat—the Government’s position is that the elections can go ahead in a safe and secure way; there would have to be a very high bar for that not to happen. But I accept the noble Lord’s point that total clarity is always the ideal.

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Russell of Liverpool) (CB)]

My Lords, the time allowed for this Question has elapsed.

Essential Services: Large-scale Technology

Lord True Excerpts

Tuesday 12th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Greaves]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what risk assessment they have undertaken of the reliance of (1) the economy, and (2) society, on the use of large- scale technology for the provision of essential services.

[The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Lord True) (Con)]

My Lords, the critical national infrastructure includes elements of infrastructure that are critical to the availability, delivery and integrity of essential services necessary for the United Kingdom to function and on which daily life depends. The CNI comprises 13 sectors, each with a lead government department responsible for identifying elements of its sector’s infrastructure.

[Lord Greaves (LD) [V]]

My Lords, that was interesting. Modern technology has created amazing and beneficial things but has also resulted in a huge increase in the size and scale of operations, not least in such areas as power generation and supply, transportation networks and, of course, digital systems through the internet. It has also increased centralisation in top-down networks, where major technology or human failures may have catastrophic consequences. Do the Government agree that there must be a radical redesign of our economy and society in order to build in qualities of resilience, recovery and survival, re-engineering systems on the basis of bottom-up and modular operation at as local a level as possible?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Lord makes some important points of which the Government are aware. I refer to lead government departments and their responsibilities. They are tasked to undertake a review of all the critical national infrastructure sectors to ensure that understanding of what is critical and of risk is up to date and relevant. The review is ongoing, with each lead government department identifying the assets and systems which are essential.

[Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)]

My Lords, does my noble friend the Minister agree that there are huge advantages to be gained for system and state, and for local and national government, through the considered, ethical, purposeful deployment of digital and emerging technologies for the provision and transformation of essential and non-essential services?

[Lord True (Con)]

I agree with my noble friend. In a sense, his question balances with opportunity the question of risk, to which attention was rightly drawn in the previous question. Technology brings advantages for the delivery of critical services, as my noble friend said. The rapid development of the job retention scheme, with its online portal by HMRC, is a good example of how technology can bring advantages to all levels in a time of need. However, we are also aware that there are risks associated with reliance on technology.

[Lord Stirrup (CB)]

My Lords, in its first report last May, the National Infrastructure Commission acknowledged that security was a question not just of preventing attacks but of how well we could respond to them. It therefore recommended an architecture that would enable us to anticipate challenges and to resist, absorb and recover from attacks and adapt accordingly. Can the Minister tell the House what progress is being made on implementing that recommendation?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, the NIC made some very important recommendations, as the noble and gallant Lord quite rightly says. It is an independent executive agency of the Treasury. A responsive approach is already in place following the May 2020 report. The Government have up to a year to formally respond to the NIC’s recommendations, but I assure the noble and gallant Lord that they will be given the most careful attention.

[Baroness Pitkeathley (Lab) [V]]

Is the Minister aware that certain forms of technology are useful in care settings? For example, Alexa does not mind how many times someone with dementia asks the same question. Does the Minister think that the development of assisted technology—social robots alongside human care givers, perhaps—should be factored into the Government’s planning for the reform of social care?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness makes a profoundly important point, which I agree with. I assure her that all the lead departments involved will consider her points. We must use the future to the benefit of all ages.

[Lord Scriven (LD) [V]]

My Lords, police use of facial recognition technology can lead to a lack of transparency and accountability, as well as issues of racial and gender bias, as outlined in a recent court case. Does the Minister agree with the Surveillance Camera Commissioner that the Government need to bring forward new rules specifying exactly how, when and where facial recognition technology should be used?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, the specific question is outwith my area of responsibility, but I will pass the noble Lord’s comments on to colleagues in the Government, and I certainly note the important point that he has made.

[Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate (Non-Afl) [V]]

My Lords, this is a crucial question. Cyberattacks globally on critical infrastructure appear to be increasing with impunity. What plans have the Government got to deter such attacks, particularly by foreign state actors, and have they assessed at what point such an attack could amount to an act of war?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, at my level in Government I will not comment on the final part of the noble Lord’s question. He is right that malign cyber activity, including by states, is an ongoing concern. In the Cabinet Office and across Government we are maintaining our capability to respond to major cyber incidents, and the National Cyber Security Centre and law enforcement cyber specialists are active in supporting critical organisations in the UK, including outside government.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, the Ipsos MORI research on understanding the full cost of cyber breaches, published by DCMS last year, points out that the current lack of accurate data makes it very difficult for SMEs in particular to get insurance for such events. Will the Government consider backing a cyber breach reinsurance scheme, based on the successful Pool Re and Flood Re reinsurance schemes, over this interim period?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, once again this is slightly outside my area of responsibility, but the interests of SMEs are always of great concern to the Government and I will pass the noble Lord’s suggestion on to appropriate colleagues.

[Baroness Wheatcroft (CB) [V]]

My Lords, one of the biggest risks of reliance on large-scale technology is the eradication of so many traditional jobs. Would the Minister consider offering retraining to many of the people currently paid to do nothing on the excellent furlough scheme whose jobs are unlikely to have a long-term future?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, the training challenge and broader apprenticeship challenge is ongoing, immense and growing, and I agree with the importance which the noble Baroness attaches to it. The Government are helping to promote cyber skills among young people to fill the shortages in that capacity.

[Lord Clement-Jones (LD) [V]]

My Lords, controversial algorithms are increasingly being used by central and local government to make decisions. Does the Minister agree that to build and retain public trust we need strong oversight and governance of public sector use of algorithms? What response are the Government giving to the recommendations in the Centre for Data Ethics and Innovation’s recent review of bias in algorithmic decision-making, and what plans for regulation do they have?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, again, that is a very broad question, but the issues that the noble Lord addresses are extremely important and I take the sense in which he has offered it. Human judgment is, in the end, irreplaceable—your Lordships’ House could never be replaced by an algorithm.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op) [V]]

My Lords, but does the Minister accept that some older people are denied access to vital services because of digital exclusion? Will the Government support means to help increase their access and provide an alternative way of accessing services for those who are unable to access the internet?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Lord makes a very important point. Looking at the colour of our hair, he and I should declare an interest in this matter. We need to extend understanding and use of technology, and access to it, but equally I urge all organisations, including banks, to remember that for many people a personal service is not only a matter of choice but a matter of necessity.

[The Deputy Speaker (The Earl of Kinnoull) (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, the time allowed for this Question has now elapsed and we therefore move to the fourth Oral Question.

EU-UK Trade and Cooperation Agreement

Lord True Excerpts

Friday 8th January 2021 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord True]

That this House takes note of the Trade and Cooperation Agreement reached between the United Kingdom and the European Union.

Relevant documents: 32nd Report from the Delegated Powers Committee, 21st report of the Constitution Committee

[The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Lord True) (Con)]

My Lords, in opening in this difficult week, I affirm our unqualified and unending respect for this Parliament and its institutions, and for democracy and democratic decisions.

I am grateful to be opening this debate. No fewer than 125 noble Lords took part in last Thursday’s debate for the Second Reading of what was then the European Union (Future Relationship) Bill, but the time for contributions and reflections was necessarily compressed—as it is again today, I understand. With much still to pore over and deliberate, I welcome the opportunity—as, I know, will my ministerial colleagues—that today’s occasion affords to take your Lordships’ wisdom further. I particularly look forward to hearing the maiden speech of my noble friend Lord Wharton of Yarm.

Since last we were here together, we have welcomed in a new year and a new chapter for the United Kingdom. We have kept faith with the British people who voted in 2016 to leave the European Union in the largest democratic exercise in this nation’s history: a vote for freedom, for parliamentary sovereignty and for change.

I am grateful to your Lordships for enabling the Bill’s passage in such unusual circumstances. Its enactment into law enabled the trade and co-operation agreement to be provisionally implemented and our future relationship with the European Union to begin. As I said in this House at Second Reading:

“The nature of any compromise is that not everyone gets what they wish for.”—[Official Report, 30/12/20; col. 1921.]


Overall, however, this deal is good for both the United Kingdom and Europe. A no-quota, no-tariff deal is good news for families and businesses in every part of the United Kingdom.

This Canada-style agreement, worth more than £650 billion, is the first free trade agreement based on zero tariffs and zero quotas that the EU has ever reached with an independent country. As of 1 January, the United Kingdom now enjoys full political and economic independence. The pledges made to the British public during the 2016 referendum and in the general election last year have been delivered. From now on, our laws will be determined by our elected politicians, and MPs will be accountable to the voters who send them to Parliament to legislate on their behalf.

The Canada-style agreement takes back control of our laws, borders, trade, money and waters. It ends any role for the European Court and protects the Belfast/Good Friday agreement. It provides certainty for business, from service providers to our world-leading manufacturers—including our car industry—thus safe-guarding highly skilled jobs and investment across our country.

We have protected the integrity of our internal market and Northern Ireland’s place within it thanks to the agreement on implementing the protocol that exists as part of the withdrawal agreement. That was struck with the European Union earlier in December by my right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster. To support traders in preparing for the end of the grace period, the UK Government will work with supermarkets, retailers and their suppliers to move to new end-to-end digital systems that will enable goods to be moved in accordance with the protocol in the most streamlined way possible. This will be backed by a major injection of new UK Government funding as part of the broader support package we have announced.

My right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Duchy has also been working hard to ensure that our borders and the many businesses involved in trading with the European Union were prepared for the end of the transition period on 31 December. To that end, the Government have worked closely with hauliers, carriers and relevant operators on the requirements of a number of systems. All the necessary changes, including changes to IT systems, were carried out successfully in the run-up to 31 December.

In addition, we have put in place measures of support to mitigate potential teething problems following our exit from the EU customs union and the single market and will continue to work with stakeholders to work through any disruption that arises. But noble Lords should recognise that, even though we have left behind the EU customs union, the EU single market and, indeed, the EU’s entire legal order, we are not walking away from Europe—quite the reverse. This agreement—this new chapter for global Britain—is also the beginning of our new partnership with our closest neighbours.

We have already seen that friendly co-operation at work. On New Year’s Eve, the Foreign Secretary announced that, working side by side with the Chief Minister of Gibraltar and following intensive discussions with the Spanish Government, we reached agreement on a political framework to form the basis of a separate treaty between the UK and the European Union regarding Gibraltar. We have sent this to the European Commission to initiate negotiations on the formal treaty. All sides are committed to ensuring border fluidity, which is clearly in the best interests of the people living on both sides. We remain steadfast in our support for Gibraltar and its sovereignty. We have a warm and strong relationship with Spain, which we look forward to building on in 2021.

On financial services, this agreement provides a stable foundation for us to develop our future relationship with the EU and facilitate new arrangements to promote international financial services trade. Alongside the agreement we have agreed a joint declaration on regulatory co-operation in the area of financial services. This sets out the commitment to structured regulatory co-operation on financial services, with the aim of establishing a durable and stable relationship. The parties will now discuss how to move forward with equivalence determinations between the European Union and the UK and will codify this in a memorandum of understanding on regulatory co-operation by the end of March.

On the creative industries, and musicians in particular, I heard the remarks made by many noble Lords in last week’s debate. The Government recognise the importance of the UK’s thriving cultural industries. We recognise that there will be some additional processes for those working in the creative industries. However, our agreement with the EU contains transparency and procedural facilitation measures that will help ensure that visa processes are as prompt and smooth as possible.

During our negotiations with the EU, the UK proposed measures that would have allowed musicians to travel and perform in the UK and the EU more easily, without needing work permits. Specifically, we proposed including the work done by musicians, artists and entertainers, and their accompanying staff, in the list of permitted activities for short-term visitors. In practice, this would have delivered an outcome closer to the UK’s approach to incoming musicians, artists and entertainers, but these proposals were, sadly, rejected by the EU.

We have always been clear that the safety and security of our citizens is the Government’s top priority. This agreement delivers a comprehensive package of capabilities that will ensure that we can work with counterparts across Europe to tackle serious crime and terrorism, protecting the public and bringing criminals to justice. We have agreed streamlined extradition arrangements based on the EU’s surrender agreement with Norway and Iceland, but with stronger safeguards. The deal supports effective operational co-operation with Europol and Eurojust. It also enables the fast and effective exchange of national DNA, fingerprint and vehicle registration data via the Prüm system to aid law enforcement agencies investigating crime and terrorism.

The Government are already taking advantage of the opportunities available to us as an independent, sovereign nation, and we will continue to do so. As of 1 January, we abolished the tampon tax, honouring a government commitment. This was made possible only by the end of the transition period and the freedom from EU law mandating VAT on sanitary products.

Last week my noble friend the Leader of the House set out the fundamentals of the trade and co-operation agreement. I have focused on some of them today and given the House an update. We believe that the agreement will help unlock investment and protect high-value jobs right across the United Kingdom, from financial services through to car manufacturing. The UK can now regulate in a way that suits the UK economy and UK businesses, doing things in a more innovative and effective way without being bound by EU rules. We will now take full advantage of the remarkable opportunities available to us as an independent trading nation, striking trade deals with other partners around the world. I look forward to hearing fruitful and positive ideas from your Lordships in the course of this debate.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, this has been a very long debate. First, I congratulate my noble friend Lord Wharton of Yarm on his outstanding maiden speech, which set a good tone for us in terms of what I think should be constructive dialogue in future. I fear that, having heard the rest of the debate, he may understand why his Bill did not quite make the progress he had hoped for in this House.

I must say, this was not the most optimistic debate. I cannot change the minds of many noble Lords—I hope that action will do so—but I must reject the opening challenge from the noble Lord, Lord Oates: to apologise for saying that the British people voted for freedom from the constraints of the European Union. I do not apologise and I do not ask the British people to apologise for their decision. I suggest that the Liberal Democrats cease to challenge the decision of the British people with that kind of language.

The noble Lord, Lord Skidelsky, spoke of the owl of Minerva—a delightful, Hegelian image. The owl of Minerva was on the coins of ancient Athens, whose attempts to impose a customs union in the Aegean led, after glory, to catastrophe. One hopes that that will be avoided by all of us, in whatever part of Europe we live, for as long as the youngest among us live.

I offered us a challenge when the debate opened: I said that I was looking forward to hearing the wisdom of the House of Lords and ideas on how we could use the new freedoms we have gained. I fear that I heard very few constructive suggestions, but I accept that, in a typically intelligent intervention, the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson of Balmacara, set out a lot of areas where there would be grounds for agreement between us and the Opposition going forward.

My noble friend Lord Bridges was, I think, the first to ask, other than ensuring that our goods and services can flow to the EU and that our businesses can grow and prosper mightily, what more we can offer and what the United Kingdom will be. The treaty is just the beginning of a new partnership in Europe that will build on common bonds of friendship and co-operation, but as sovereign equals with greater democratic autonomy. In future, the UK will remain distinctively open and global, working with our allies in Europe and around the world to leverage our unique assets, some of which were spoken about by the noble Lord, Lord Butler of Brockwell. We will act as a problem-solving and burden-sharing nation and as a force for good in the world, including for free trade.

The UK can now regulate in more innovative and effective ways which suit our economy and businesses, without being bound by EU rules. In any case, the EU and UK systems will naturally diverge over time. The Government have set out an ambitious domestic agenda, including on green matters and key areas such as environmental regulation and financial services, where the Government will aim to lead the global race to the top.

Many noble Lords spoke about goods moving between the UK and the EU and dwelt on the negative side—typically, I fear—including some of the problems that businesses face now that Britain has chosen to leave the single market and customs union. I emphasise that the agreement secured 100% tariff liberalisation, so there will be no tariffs on trade in UK and EU goods. That is worth emphasising because it is the first deal of this kind that the EU has ever signed.

The agreement includes modern and appropriate rules of origin, meaning that goods produced in either of our markets can qualify for zero-tariff trade. This will allow British manufacturers to use a significant level of input from abroad in British products where appropriate, such as sugar in confectionery or batteries in electric vehicles. We secured product-specific rules of origin that are tailored to the needs of UK businesses in, for example, the automotive, aluminium, chemicals, machinery and food and drink sectors, to which many noble Lords rightly paid attention. Importantly, the rules of origin prevent us having to accept from the EU imports at zero tariffs that are disproportionately produced elsewhere in the world.

In addition to what we agreed in the FTA, we have also agreed an administrative simplification to support businesses so that, throughout 2021, traders do not need supplier declarations from business suppliers to be in place when goods are exported.

We have always been clear that the future means that there will be new customs processes for goods headed from GB into the EU and vice versa, but the agreement will reduce the costs of these new processes for traders by supporting efficient customs arrangements covering all trade in goods while ensuring that customs authorities can protect their interests. We agreed to co-operate in facilitating trade at roll-on roll-off ports in particular and to recognise each other’s authorised economic operator security and safety schemes from 1 January.

The agreement also supports co-operation and mutual assistance between the UK and the EU on customs and VAT, including assistance in recovery of indirect taxes. This will help us to enforce our borders efficiently, to safeguard revenue and to combat fraud.

It is clear that unnecessary technical barriers to trade can increase costs for exporters through additional administrative costs and regulatory hurdles. The agreement features wide-ranging provisions on technical barriers to trade that seek to facilitate trade by avoiding unnecessary regulatory barriers between the two parties. This is supported by five sectoral annexes with dedicated provisions for growth sectors: automotive, pharmaceuticals, chemicals, organic products and wine.

The agreement also ensures that the UK and the EU can maintain fully independent SPS rules to protect human, animal and plant life and health, preserving our right to regulate independently. It includes measures—referred to by more than one noble Lord—to facilitate efficient management of disease, pest and food safety incidents; to co-operate on the fight against antimicrobial resistance and protect animal welfare; and to identify potential to facilitate trade further without compromising biosecurity.

My noble friend Lord Taylor of Holbeach raised important points about the horticultural industry, in which his family is so renowned. Frictionless trade would require regulatory alignment with the European Union, which would undermine not only our regulatory autonomy but our sovereignty as an independent trading nation. We have put in place a framework to agree to trade facilitations going forward, including on SPS and including potential reductions in the frequency of import checks. It is in both parties’ interests to pursue that. We continue to work closely with traders on our implementing processes to ensure that exporters understand the requirements they need to meet to continue trading with the EU. I can say to my noble friend that that includes an understanding of the issues of the horticultural industry.

The noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville, asked about geographical indications. There was not a section on geographical indications in the intellectual property chapter. Instead, we included a review clause which allows us to agree rules on protection of GIs in future, should we so wish. The UK retains full autonomy over its GIs regime.

I was asked whether lamb produced by hill farmers would be specifically included in the zero-tariff category. The deal maintains zero tariffs and zero quotas on trade in goods between the UK and the EU—I say again that it is the first time that the EU has ever agreed to complete tariff and quota-free access in an FTA. I am sure that Parisian restaurateurs, after Covid, will be delighted that Welsh lamb is still coming their way.

I was asked about delays to fish exports. We believe that no vehicles are being held at this time, but we are monitoring the situation and I can assure the House that we will continue to do so. We have had extensive engagement with the industry during the past two years to help it prepare for the new processes that it will need to follow. On the UK side of the border, now that Operation Brock has been activated, we will prioritise fish to ensure that it reaches Dover quickly.

So far as certification is concerned, we are indeed seeking to make more vets available, but checks are more usually made by local authorities. The Government have recently offered £1 million and more to local authorities to increase capacity and assist certification of fish products.

We are not currently seeing significant disruption at the border, although there are incidents caused by the end of the transition period. It is of course early days and, as is normally the case during the first days of January, volumes of traffic have been low. However, I assure the House that the Government remain vigilant on the situation on a 24/7 basis. We have a new high-tech border operations centre, which is operating 24/7, and we are working closely with local resilience forums. The most significant issue that we are currently facing at the short-strait border is the requirement for all people crossing into France, including freight drivers, to have been tested for Covid. Our priority is to communicate the message that hauliers should be tested.

My noble friend Lord Holmes of Richmond and the noble Viscount, Lord Waverley, in very constructive speeches, referred to the opportunities arising from the move to create the world’s most effective border for the UK. The 2025 UK Border Strategy, published on 17 December 2020, sets that out. Certainly, technology and data analytics have the potential to greatly improve the operation of the border.

On Northern Ireland, the noble Lord, Lord Empey—quite rightly perhaps—took me to task on my opening speech. Of course I acknowledge the particular circumstances of Northern Ireland. I assure noble Lords that the flow of goods under the Northern Ireland protocol is smooth overall and that there are no significant queues at NI ports. Where there are individual issues, they are being quickly addressed by DAERA and HMRC. Traders are widely taking up the trader support service.

The grace periods for businesses are in operation and are generally working well. This applies to supermarkets and their suppliers. As a result, the overwhelming majority of parcels continue to move smoothly between GB and NI. I state very firmly that there is no reason for businesses not to continue to send such goods to Northern Ireland. We are aware of issues that hauliers have experienced in transiting Dublin Port and, as referred to in the context of Welsh ports, we are engaging with the Irish authorities and the Northern Ireland Executive on this issue.

A large number of noble Lords spoke about services. The agreement secures continued market access across a broad range of key sectors, including professional and business services, and significantly exceeds what is available under WTO rules. We ensured that the services covered by this agreement are, at a minimum, in line with both sides’ best offer to date in similar agreements such as those with Canada and Japan. That includes unprecedented provisions on legal services and creates additional certainty and clarity. There are specific issues relating to patents, raised by the noble Lord, Lord Bassam of Brighton, and IPO and MoJ officials have agreed to discuss concerns with the sector.

On green cards, mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, we will certainly need those.

I welcome the wise comments of my noble friends Lord Sharpe of Epsom, Lord Risby and Lord Griffiths, the noble Lords, Lord Butler of Brockwell and Lord King of Lothbury, and others about financial services. Financial services are, and will remain, a key strength of the United Kingdom and the agreement ensures that our regulatory authorities can effectively supervise the financial services industry based on values of openness, stability and transparency. We aim to reach agreement on the memorandum of understanding by March 2021 to establish a framework for co-operation, but I endorse the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Butler of Brockwell, on these matters.

On data adequacy, I repeat what I said to the House last week: we do not expect the bridging mechanism to have to last for more than six months, and we hope that matters will be concluded sooner.

I have only a minute left, regrettably, but I should refer to musicians and the creative industries, to which the Government attach the greatest importance. In negotiations with the EU on business travel, we proposed to expand the list of permitted activities for short-term business visitors, notably to include work done by artists, entertainers and musicians, and supporting staff. This would have ensured that musicians could have travelled to the EU without work permits. However, the EU rejected this, considering that touring musicians were providing a service directly to consumers, rather than performing a business visit. We did point out that there are other types of short-term businesses that provide direct services, but the EU did not alter its position. Considering the EU’s refusal to consider our proposals, it seems unlikely that it will want to reopen the subject so soon after negotiations have concluded. However, there is a review clause on the list of permitted activities, and I can assure the House that the Government will continue to give the highest priority to this important sector.

I have run out of time to address matters of security. Civil servants right across Whitehall, given the breadth of the debate we have had, have been dreading the words I am about to utter, but given the literally scores of questions that noble Lords rightly asked, I will attempt to ensure that a comprehensive letter is produced and placed in the Library of the House.

I believe that the agreement presents a great opportunity for a future global Britain. I thank all noble Lords who took part in the debate—even if, at times, I was a little disappointed in its tone.

Motion agreed.

House of Lords Appointments Commission

Lord True Excerpts

Tuesday 5th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hayman]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have to put (1) the remit, and (2) the independence, of the House of Lords Appointments Commission on a statutory footing.

[The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Lord True) (Con)]

My Lords, the House of Lords Appointments Commission is an independent, advisory, non-departmental public body. The Government have no plans to change the role and remit of the organisation.

[Baroness Hayman (CB) [V]]

Does the Minister not recognise the deep and widespread concern that has been expressed about the Prime Minister’s approach to appointments to this already overpopulated House? He has now become the first Prime Minister ever to overturn the explicit advice of the Appointments Commission in relation to the propriety of an appointment. This is not an ad hominem issue; it is an issue of real principle. Will the Minister now accept that we need to rebuild public confidence in the process of appointments to this House by creating a commission whose remit and independence is protected by statute?

[Lord True (Con)]

No, my Lords. The Government have no plans to change the position. The organisation’s legal status would not affect its remit. The House of Lords needs refreshing and the Prime Minister, like other Prime Ministers, is entitled to do that.

[Baroness Jay of Paddington (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I do not normally support political conspiracy theories but the Prime Minister’s recent actions lend substance to the now widespread view that he is deliberately trying to undermine the credibility of this House and its institutions. I echo the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, in asking what will be done to restore confidence. In particular, how will the Leader of the House, who, as the Minister knows, has a special responsibility to represent the whole House, ensure that our reputation and authority are protected at the centre of government?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, I cannot answer for the Leader of the House; I answer on behalf of the Government. The Government that the noble Baroness had the honour of serving nominated 354 Members to your Lordships’ House. I think that getting too excited about my right honourable friend’s record so far is probably not appropriate.

[Lord Newby (LD)]

My Lords, recent appointments show that the Government have, in effect, torn up the Burns report. Do they have a strategy for the size of the Lords, or will this Prime Minister continue to dole out peerages to his chums and financial supporters at will?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, I repeat that the House of Lords needs refreshing from time to time; that has been the position of all Governments. I completely disagree with the noble Lord’s analysis of the situation.

[Lord Judge (CB) [V]]

My Lords, as the Government have no plans to change the system for appointment to this House, can the Minister kindly clarify the principled justification—if any—for permitting the appointment of Members of the sovereign Parliament to continue to be vested in the unconstrained power of the Prime Minister of the day?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, the Prime Minister of the day is the monarch’s principal adviser on the exercise of patronage, which is part of the royal prerogative.

[Lord Howard of Rising (Con) [V]]

Does my noble friend agree that the opposition of this House to the clearly expressed view of the British people on leaving the European Union means that there is a danger that if the House of Lords Appointments Commission—drawn largely from the same pool—has statutory powers, it could lead to appointments that divorce this House even further from the population of this country?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, I would not follow my noble friend entirely in the course of his question. It is certainly true that the reputation of this House rests not on who might come here soon but on those of us who are here and how we have conducted ourselves. In that, I agree with my noble friend.

[Baroness Blackstone (Ind Lab)]

My Lords, I am not reassured by the Minister’s answers to the questions that have so far been put to him. How long will this House have to endure the disgraceful behaviour of a Prime Minister who blatantly ignores the cross-party agreement to keep the size of this House from growing year on year and who ignored both the Court of Appeal’s judgment on Mr Cruddas’s behaviour—it described it as “unacceptable, inappropriate and wrong” —and the independent advice of the Appointments Commission that this man is not a suitable candidate for a peerage?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, I am certainly not following the noble Baroness into what was described earlier as an ad hominem comment on any individual. On the Burns report numbers, which I think she refers to, neither this Prime Minister nor the previous one assented to any limit on numbers.

[Lord Empey (UUP) [V]]

Can my noble friend tell the House whether there have been any discussions with the chairman and members of the House of Lords Appointments Commission since the Prime Minister’s latest decision? Does he accept that, as it appears that persons can effectively buy a position in this House—at least, that is the impression given—that brings us back to the days of the rotten boroughs? Does he not realise that all of us suffer, and the reputation of the House suffers, as a consequence?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, I do not agree with my noble friend. The question of the resourcing of political parties is a vexed one, as noble Lords know, and has affected all political parties. I cannot comment on contact between the Prime Minister and HOLAC but I can say that the chairman of HOLAC has written to the Public Accounts Committee on the matter—that is on the record—and the Prime Minister, with full transparency, has placed his own letter on the public record.

[Baroness D'Souza (CB) [V]]

My Lords, having long supported a statutory Appointments Commission, I accept that it may be difficult to define criteria such as propriety in precise legal terms. Certain financial transactions, for example, while reprehensible, may be entirely legal. So would the Minister agree that extending the remit of the independent commission to include a thorough assessment of the competence and/or appropriateness of a political nominee would be helpful to regain public confidence?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, again, I do not accept the charge of a lack of public confidence in this relation. The role of the House of Lords Appointments Commission is unchanged; it makes observations and gives advice. The commission’s role is advisory, and the Prime Minister has said that he places great weight on its careful and considered advice and will continue to do so.

[Lord McLoughlin (Con) [V]]

Is it not right that the Prime Minister should have the ultimate say? He should of course consult the commission, which he has done, and he has come to a different view. That is wholly proper, and I very much welcome the Minister’s declared intention not to change the system as presently constructed, which has served Prime Ministers of all parties, since its formation.

[Lord True (Con)]

I am grateful for my noble friend’s comments. There is a certain imbalance in some of the response to the Prime Minister’s appointments. My position is to welcome all those coming to your Lordships’ House, including the person who has been unfairly attacked today.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I listened carefully to the Minister’s answers and I do not think he has addressed the Question first put to him by the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, who was the first Lord Speaker of this House, or that of the noble Baroness, Lady Jay, a former Leader of the House. They asked what he is going to do to restore public confidence. While the noble Lord, Lord McLoughlin, is right that the role of the commission has not changed, the attitude of the Prime Minister to its recommendations has changed. In three key areas—the size of the House and the Burns committee report, by-elections of hereditary Peers, and now the integrity of the appointments system—the Government are lagging behind the House of Lords. I take the Minister back to the original Question: what do he and the Government intend to do to restore and improve the reputation of the House, which has been damaged by ongoing appointments and an increase in size?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, I disagree that appointments are damaging the reputation of the House, as keeps being put. I am grateful that all noble Lords are, as I am, jealous of the reputation of the House, but if quantity of appointments were the issue, it would have been badly damaged under a previous Administration. The noble Baroness referred also to appointments of hereditary Peers. If we are talking of statutory matters, I suggest that the House of Lords looks at the statute on this matter.

[The Lord Speaker (Lord Fowler)]

My Lords, the time allowed for this Private Notice Question has elapsed.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Jay of Ewelme (CB) [V]]

Thank you, Lord Speaker. I declare my interest as a former chairman of HOLAC. Its advice was accepted by all Prime Ministers, from Tony Blair to Theresa May. If its advice is discarded, the system pretty quickly falls into disrepute. Does the Minister agree that the Appointments Commission should be seen as a creature of this House and that its chairman and members should be chosen by this House?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, many will reflect on the matter that the noble Lord raises, but I think it is dangerous for this House to assert the right to decide who should or should not be its own Members. That is a constitutionally strange place for an unelected House to go. I repeat that the Prime Minister said in his published letter that he gave very careful consideration to the points raised in the advice of the House of Lords Appointments Commission in the case referred to today, and weighed them against other factors. The Prime Minister will always give close attention to the commission’s careful and considered advice.

[Baroness Noakes (Con)]

My Lords, it has been asserted that public confidence in your Lordships’ House has been lost because of the number of Members, but does my noble friend agree that there is no evidence for that and that therefore there is no need to change any of our arrangements, which work extremely well on an advisory basis, for the appointment of Peers to this House?

[Lord True (Con)]

Yes, I agree with my noble friend. I believe that the reputation of the House is weighed on many factors other than this. The behaviour of Members, including those recommended by the House of Lords Appointments Commission to sit on the Cross Benches, is one of the factors that the people who watch this House consider.

[Lord Davies of Gower (Con) [V]]

My Lords, while I welcome the Government’s approach to this and my noble friend’s answers today, does he agree with me that placing the House of Lords Appointments Commission on a statutory footing might avoid the current disproportionate allocation of membership to your Lordships’ House, with the potential to allow a quicker, more efficient programme of work to be achieved?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, a large number of considerations were wrapped up in that beguiling question. There is an argument that, as this House is not elected, its reputation rests on its expertise and that therefore a considerable number of Members might be desirable, as they bring their expertise here. I simply rest on the point that we should not be carried away by, sadly, a political attack on a particular individual. All noble Lords should be prepared to welcome all our new colleagues, when they come to your Lordships’ House.

[The Lord Speaker (Lord Fowler)]

My Lords, all supplementary questions have now been asked. I apologise for seeking to bring proceedings to a close a little prematurely.