EU: Visa-free Short-term Travel Mobility
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The Earl of Clancarty
To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they are seeking a reciprocal agreement on visa-free short-term travel mobility in their negotiations for the United Kingdom’s departure from the European Union.
The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Lord True) (Con)
My Lords, both sides have committed to providing visa-free arrangements for tourists and short-term business visitors. The EU will grant UK nationals visa-free access for short-term visits, subject to reciprocity. This means that UK business visitors and tourists would not need a visa when travelling to the Schengen area for short stays of up to 90 days in every 180-day period. We have announced that we will treat EU citizens as non-visa nationals for the purposes of tourism and holidays after the end of the transition period.
The Earl of Clancarty (CB)
My Lords, this affects not only tourists but those working in the creative industries, including visual artists, writers and musicians who wish to spend informal extended periods abroad. Do the Government agree that it is deeply unfair that British citizens cannot spend a summer or winter in a European country visa-free—indeed, they cannot return for three months—while Europeans can stay in the UK for up to six months at a time? What plans do the Government have to seek a reciprocal agreement on this, considering that the phrase “at least 90 days” in the EU negotiating document is an open door to further negotiation?
Lord True (Con)
My Lords, the noble Earl raises a very important point. The Government certainly recognise the importance of tourism and travel for the creative industries. We set out our position on mode 4 in the approach publication at the start of negotiations and we are committed to seeking protection for exactly the kind of persons the noble Earl refers to.
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)
My Lords, the posted workers’ directive particularly helped our travel business, and some 15,000 UK residents are employed in an EU member state. As the Government will not continue this agreement after December, which risks thousands of jobs, particularly those of young people, will they extend the reciprocal youth mobility scheme, which enables young workers to move between signatory countries to find work for up to two years, and might also help musicians?
Lord True (Con)
My Lords, at the moment we are continuing discussions in this area. I promise to advise the noble Baroness opposite on the specific point that she raises very shortly.
Baroness Stuart of Edgbaston (Non-Afl)
My Lords, Michel Barnier has labelled some of the United Kingdom’s proposals as “freedom of movement for service suppliers”. Can the Minister confirm that we are seeking only to lock in, on a reciprocal basis, some arrangements that the United Kingdom already offers to third-country nationals, and that therefore this characterisation is simply wrong?
Lord True (Con)
My Lords, I welcome the noble Baroness to her place. She is exactly right; the comment underlines my point that we are seeking to negotiate arrangements which run very much in the direction that the House is asking for. For example, we are seeking measures on contractual services suppliers who provide services to a client in another jurisdiction. I cannot go through all our mode 4 suggestions, but they are on the table and we very much hope that they will be picked up.
Lord Moynihan (Con)
My noble friend the Minister will know that, currently, eligible applicants can work in most jobs under the simplified youth mobility scheme but cannot work as young professional sports coaches unless qualified in the UK. Will he look again at this prohibition so as to encourage young, recently retired international sports men and women to come to this country as coaches to support our elite development pathways after the transition period?
Lord True (Con)
My Lords, again, that is another specific and important point which is covered under this heading for discussion. I undertake to keep the House and my noble friend informed, in particular in relation to sport, as he has asked.
Lord Paddick (LD)
My Lords, according to the government website, UK citizens visiting EU countries from 1 January will have to have at least six months left on their passport, show a return or onward ticket, show they have enough money for their stay, use separate lanes from EU/EEA and Swiss nationals and limit their visit to 90 days in any 180 days. EU citizens travelling to the UK from 1 January do not need to worry about when their passport will expire, show a return or onward ticket, or prove they have enough money for their stay. They can continue to use the e-passport gates at UK airports, as before, and will be able to visit for six months and then come back the next day for another six. Who is really taking back control of our borders, the UK or the EU?
Lord True (Con)
My Lords, I simply say to the noble Lord, who represents a party that has been very critical of this Government’s attitude to European nationals, that the position he outlined demonstrates the openness of the future Britain.
Baroness Blackwood of North Oxford (Con) [V]
My Lords, conferences and short-term visits as part of international collaboration are engine rooms of scientific discovery. They are vital for exchanging ideas, forming relationships and building careers. I realise that Covid is temporarily suspending some of this activity, but our immigration system must be fit for the future and there is consensus on the long-term benefit of researcher mobility for the UK’s science and innovation sector. So can the Minister please assure me that the Government will seek a light-touch, reciprocal arrangement, allowing researchers in innovations to travel for short, work-related visits, preferably visa free?
Lord True (Con)
Yet again, as other noble Lords in this short exchange have done, my noble friend raises an important point. In negotiations, we are seeking a reciprocal agreement that would bind both parties to agree a list of business activities that could be performed in either party without a work permit on a short-term basis, as she asks. Unfortunately, we are unable to comment on the detail of these arrangements, as discussions are ongoing.
Viscount Waverley (CB) [V]
My Lords, the music industry should not be viewed within a silo, nor as a bolt-on afterthought, but as an integral part of traditional business with a Pandora’s box of international engagement needing to be prised open. Given the multidisciplinary importance of performance skills to combine physical presence and future virtual technologies, might a partial approach lie in embracing an innovative online environment to ensure that sectoral infrastructure is developed for this new world in which we find ourselves?
Lord True (Con)
My Lords, the noble Viscount raises an interesting suggestion. The Government recognise the importance of touring for UK musicians, and not only them. I have referred to some areas in which we are continuing efforts to negotiate a better solution, but I assure the noble Viscount and the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, that musicians are very much in our mind.
Baroness Ludford (LD)
My Lords, I am not clear why the Minister’s initial reply was about tourists, because this Question is about people who want to work. The ONS has found that arts, entertainment and recreation, including music, has lost over half its revenue and nearly three in five of its jobs due to Covid. So the hit from Brexit is kicking a sector when it is very down. How are the Government fighting to achieve a multi-entry Schengen visa for people such as musicians, and less bureaucracy for musicians’ instruments than they are set to face—whereas of course they have free movement under existing arrangements?
Lord True (Con)
My Lords, the original Question was about visa-free and short-term travel; tourism is certainly germane to the Question and I am sorry if that was unsatisfactory to the noble Baroness. I have referred to our efforts on short-term visits in relation to business activities. Our offer on mode 4 is extremely generous and we continue to impress on EU negotiators that the agreement we are proposing is very much in their workers’ interests as well as our own.
Lord McColl of Dulwich (Con) [V]
My Lords, what efforts are Her Majesty’s Government making to ensure that the visa-free short-term travel arrangements will not be used by traffickers to get their victims into the UK, because it looks as though there will be no effective checks at the borders?
Lord True (Con)
My Lords, I assure the noble Lord that the UK authorities will remain eternally vigilant against this bestial criminal activity.
Lord Wigley (PC) [V]
My Lords, I draw attention to my registered interests. Does the Minister accept that performing musicians need the facility to travel at short notice to work in other parts of our continent? We are repeatedly told that the soft power of cultural exchanges is the UK’s strongest lever in today’s international world. Why are the Government willing to contemplate a no-deal Brexit which will strangle that influence within the European setting?
Lord True (Con)
My Lords, I have referred more than once to the Government’s efforts to assist short-term activity in the course of the discussions we are having on mode 4. Obviously, movement and activity within different member states is an issue for them and for the EU. I repeat to the House that this is an important area. I believe that we have made generous, important and significant proposals and, as I say, discussions are ongoing.
The Senior Deputy Speaker (Lord McFall of Alcluith)
My Lords, the time allowed for this Question has elapsed.
EU Exit: Negotiations and the Joint Committee
Lord True Excerpts(3 years, 6 months ago)
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The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Lord True) (Con)
Well, My Lords, after listening to the submissions from the noble Baronesses opposite, I must say I warm to the smooth, diplomatic talk of Monsieur Barnier.
I have always respected the Liberal Democrat Party’s consistency and determination to keep, then get back, the UK in the European Union of which they are so fond. But I listened—I strained my ears—to hear some acceptance in the submission from the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, that the British people had set an objective. She asked what the objective is; it is that set by the British people that the United Kingdom shall be an independent nation, free to set its own laws and proceed with mutual respect alongside our European partners. Not one word in the speeches from the parties opposite recognised that. Instead, I heard a litany of criticism of the stance this Government are taking on behalf of the British people. It was not Project Fear—it was, frankly, project invention. I was immensely disappointed by the tone. I think everybody outside this House should take note of the position of the Labour Party: it supports, in no respect, the efforts of the United Kingdom to secure a good deal, and in every respect, parrots the criticisms that come from the European Union.
This Government are intent on securing a good outcome for the United Kingdom. That outcome is the one I have described. I regret the delays and difficulties that have taken place, which were ascribed by the parties opposite entirely to the United Kingdom. In fact, the European Union was willing to undertake negotiations on fewer than half of the days available, it would not engage on all the outstanding issues and, despite what the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, said, it has refused to discuss legal text in any area since the summer. It is almost incredible to me that we have reached this point in negotiations without any legal text of any kind. Then, on 15 October, the EU heads of state gathered for the European Council and made the statement they did, and the response from the Prime Minister to that statement was entirely reasonable and predictable in the circumstances.
As my noble friend the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster and others have made clear, this Government are always ready listen to serious approaches, but they have to be serious. This Government will continue to make preparations, as they have done for months, for whichever eventuality arises, whether it is the Australian outcome or, as we would have preferred, the Canada outcome. That work is ongoing. There is engagement with business, as was referred to in the speech of the noble Baroness, Lady Ludford. The Prime Minister and the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster spoke to representatives of business yesterday. Across the board, there are ongoing discussions.
I was asked about the goods vehicle IT; we have discussed that in this House before. We are confident that it is proceeding well. The arrangements for border management have been published and updated.
On security, in the last round, there was discussion of law enforcement, which covered a number of capabilities, including Prüm and mutual legal assistance. Security is of course important, but the whole gamut of relations between us and the European Union is important, and people on both sides have to reflect on how they want to see things go forward. The United Kingdom will adjust to any eventuality.
We note, with interest, that the EU’s negotiator, speaking to the European Parliament this morning, has commented in a significant way on the issues behind the current difficulties in our talks. We are carefully studying what was said, and I can tell the House that my noble friend Lord Frost will discuss the situation when he speaks to Monsieur Barnier later today.
The Deputy Speaker (Baroness Garden of Frognal) (LD)
My Lords, we now come to the 20 minutes allocated for Back-Bench questions. I ask that questions and answers be brief, so that I can call the maximum number of speakers.
The Earl of Kinnoull (Non-Afl)
My Lords, there is a stark difference between the level of information contained in the statements made by the two sides following the joint committee meeting on Monday. Why is it that this sovereign Parliament gets so much less information than the EU 27 Parliaments and the European Parliament? Will the Minister commit that, going forward, a much greater level of information will be given on meetings of the joint committee and its sub-committees?
Lord True (Con)
My Lords, a Written Ministerial Statement was issued. I am sorry if the noble Earl feels that more could and should be said. I always enjoy my engagements with him. The Statement referred to a number of matters discussed in the joint committee on 19 October. In addition to that, if he wants, I can be more helpful: the committee discussed work on the establishment of a list of individuals to sit on an arbitration panel, as required under the WA. Both parties are progressing work to establish a list of suitable arbitrators. As the noble Earl knows, it was agreed to have a further meeting of the committee in November, and other work will continue in the interim. The discussions are obviously ongoing, and I know that he understands, and I respect that, that there are some constraints on what one can share at a time of active talks.
Baroness Noakes (Con)
My Lords, following last week’s EU Council meeting, Angela Merkel said:
“We also acknowledge that the UK would like to have a certain amount of independence”.
I emphasise “a certain amount”. Does the Minister agree that until the EU fully understands and respects the fact that we will have 100% independence, the EU alone will be responsible for the lack of a free trade deal, along with the damage that will do to the economies of many of its member states?
Lord True (Con)
My Lords, of course it is essential that that point is recognised. I have made a practice, since I had the honour of taking on this brief, of not criticising the actions of any EU member state or anybody within the EU, and I shall forbear to comment on what any individual European leader may or may not have said. However, my noble friend is absolutely right that our independence, our right to set our laws, to control our own waters, and all the well-known expectations—not requests or demands—of an independent state need to be recognised by the other party.
Lord Bilimoria (CB) [V]
My Lords, the Statement very clearly says that this country should get ready for 1 January 2021 on arrangements that are more like Australia’s—in other words, WTO rules. Does the Minister agree with the 71 trade associations and professional bodies—along with the CBI, of which I am president—representing 190,000 businesses and 7 million employees, calling on politicians on both sides to carve a path towards a deal, followed by the European business groups from France, Germany and Italy also calling for smooth trading conditions and a solution? Does he agree that now is the time for compromise and tenacity and that a deal can be done? If there is a deal, there will be a platform on which to build, for security, movement of people and all other parts of our relationship.
The Deputy Speaker (Baroness Garden of Frognal) (LD)
Questions and answers should be as brief as possible, please, so that we can get through more people.
Lord True (Con)
My Lords, I apologise to the House if I have infringed. I say then to the noble Lord that, whatever the outcome of the negotiations, the UK is leaving the single market and the customs territory, and everybody will have to make arrangements to act in those circumstances.
Lord Liddle (Lab) [V]
My Lords, what a mess we are in. Do the Government accept that they won a large parliamentary majority last December on the basis of an “oven-ready deal” that had two elements? A withdrawal agreement that ditched the Northern Ireland backstop and substituted a customs border in the Irish Sea was the proposal of the British Prime Minister, not the European Union. The second element was a political declaration that set out the terms of the future EU relationship, including clear commitments to a level playing field on state aid, workers’ rights and environmental standards. These inevitably represent constraints on independence. Is it not the case that if we end up with no deal, it is because the Government have gone back on those commitments made in December and put a price on sovereignty that will result in grave economic damage and increased political insecurity for the British people?
Lord True (Con)
No, my Lords, I do not accept the one-sided strictures being heard once again in this House. The Government have proposed arrangements with the European Union that have precedents in agreements that that Union has reached with other countries of the world. The Government have asked for nothing unreasonable.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD) [V]
My Lords, the Government are set on a Canada-style agreement. Have they studied the Canadian network of agreements with the United States, its close neighbour, which cover border controls, aviation, energy, police co-operation, common standards, road haulage and even fishing in the waters along their border? That is because it is a close neighbour. Do the Government have a strategy for somehow increasing the distance between the UK and the European continent? Or do they accept that after 1 January, we will have to start to negotiate on all these other matters as well with our new neighbours?
Lord True (Con)
My Lords, the United Kingdom is a sovereign nation and has relations with every other country in the world. Of course, our relationship with our European neighbours is important and we will continue to negotiate with them, whether in this process or in whatever circumstances we find in the future.
Lord Lilley (Con)
Can my noble friend confirm that EU negotiators have been gently reminded that, if there is no free trade agreement and, regrettably, tariffs are applied to trade in both directions across the channel, the cost to EU exporters will be getting on for three times the cost to UK exporters, because they largely export highly protected goods to us, which we will be able to obtain far more cheaply elsewhere once we are outside the customs union?
Lord True (Con)
My Lords, we were told by the Front Bench opposite yesterday that the House was sending a signal to the European Union, so I infer that our proceedings are followed closely in Brussels, and I am sure my noble friend’s remarks will have been noted.
Viscount Waverley (CB) [V]
[Inaudible.] So can the Minister offer a synopsis of the digital trade outcomes we should expect from negotiations, and confirmation that these are aligned with those in the Japan deal and US negotiations? Can concerns be allayed that many of the just-announced list of trade advisers to the Secretary of State and the DIT are recognised arch-Brexiteers, given the importance of bridge-building to allow continuity in trade with the EU, which is what is urgently required now.
Lord True (Con)
My Lords, I regret that I am not advised on the advisers to DIT; I apologise to the House for that, I was not anticipating that question. I cannot comment on whether they are so-called arch-Brexiteers, but I will respond to the noble Viscount’s question in writing.
Lord Caine (Con)
My Lords, will my noble friend update the House on what progress has been made in determining who will negotiate with the EU for Northern Ireland, and in what forum, in those circumstances in which the EU proposes changes to the rules of the single market and Northern Ireland is obliged to diverge from the rest of the United Kingdom?
Lord True (Con)
My noble friend asks an important question. Article 15 of the Northern Ireland protocol establishes a joint consultative working group on implementation of the protocol to serve as a forum for the exchange of information and mutual consultation, including the EU informing the UK about planned Union Acts covered by the protocol. The United Kingdom has committed, and I repeat this commitment to my noble friend, to including representatives of the Northern Ireland Executive as part of the UK delegation to that working group.
Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP) [V]
My Lords, we in this House are trying to help the Government meet their promises to the electorate. In fact, we are doing a “reverse Salisbury”—I thank George Peretz QC for that phrase. I do not understand how a single Tory on the Government Benches can possibly vote against the election manifesto of last year. Can the Minister give details on the issues of environment, animal welfare and workers’ rights? Are we in agreement or disagreement with the EU on them? What are our Government asking for? What is the EU asking for? What blockages are coming from disagreements in the Cabinet?
Lord True (Con)
My Lords, I regret that I found it very difficult to follow the noble Baroness’s question because of the quality of the microphone. I think that at some point she asked about details of the state of play in certain aspects of negotiations, on which I would have to reserve the Government’s position in the normal way. I will examine Hansard, and if there is a way in which I can say anything, I will. I repeat that the Government have been involved in a delicate negotiation; as I told the House, there has been an interesting statement this morning, which we are examining. I reserve the Government’s position.
Lord Robathan (Con)
My Lords, I turn to fishing rights and the rather fraught negotiations surrounding them, where we see President Macron and the French apparently refusing to compromise or give way in any shape or form. Does my noble friend regret, as I do, that some in the media, such as the BBC, and, I regret to say, many politicians who have never reconciled themselves to the vote taken in 2016, are always prepared to side with Monsieur Barnier and the French negotiators on issues such as fishing and are not willing to stand up in any way for British interests as expressed by our negotiators?
Lord True (Con)
My Lords, I agree with my noble friend. I said to the House earlier that I rather heard that in the opening statements from the side opposite. Our position on fishing has been very clear: the waters are the waters of an independent state. We have put propositions on fishing, but the EU has not been prepared to negotiate. Its ask from the start was that life should continue as it was. We are an independent coastal state and whoever it may be—I do not name the BBC—has to recognise that.
Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Non-Afl) [V]
My Lords, yesterday’s statement from the Government clearly indicated that it is the intention of the UK and the EU to intensify discussions around the implementation of the withdrawal agreement, particularly around citizens’ rights and the Northern Ireland protocol. How will that happen when it is the Government’s intention to subvert the Northern Ireland protocol through Part 5 of the internal market Bill?
Lord True (Con)
My Lords, that is a false characterisation of Part 5 of the internal market Bill. The Government are not subverting the Northern Ireland protocol; we are acting to implement it. The Government’s proposal, which your Lordships will have to discuss—I do not want to repeat the discussions we had yesterday—is that in certain circumstances we might have to protect our union against interference with free movement in the customs territory. On the joint committee proposals, the statement referred to the meeting that took place recently and the fact that another meeting will take place in November. The record of this Government on citizens’ rights for EU nationals has been outstanding and generous; we and, I understand, the Commission are pressing all member states to reciprocate. I hope very much that that will be the case.
Lord Polak (Con)
My Lords, as I mentioned at Second Reading of the internal market Bill, people across this country know that we voted to leave and tried to negotiate a mutual and sensible exit in good faith. It seems that the good faith has not been reciprocated. In that regard, does my noble friend share my profound disappointment with the flavour of the EU’s communiqué after last week’s European Council?
Lord True (Con)
My Lords, I stand by the words of the Prime Minister in reaction to that. It was disappointing. I referred to it in my speech yesterday. It seemed to restate the opening position. As we understand it, the communiqué was hardened from the text that was before the Council, which was disappointing. We have expressed our disappointment and set out our position and feelings on the matter. I repeat to the House, because I do not want to make an entirely negative point, that we will carefully study everything that is said by EU representatives. As I have said, there will be further conversations.
Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)
My Lords, I turn to customs and tariffs. The definition of goods at risk of onward movement into the EU is a sensitive decision for the joint committee to take. When does my noble friend think it will take that decision? As regards the UK’s listing as an authorised third country for agri-food exports into the EU, what assurances is the EU asking for to proceed with third-country listing of the UK and what assurances have we offered?
Lord True (Con)
My Lords, we are more hopeful. The position on third-country listing was extraordinarily disappointing. The statements and threats made in that respect were unacceptable. Goods at risk is an area of discussion in the appropriate committee. I will not foresee the outcome of those discussions.
The Deputy Speaker (Baroness Garden of Frognal) (LD)
My Lords, I congratulate the Minister and noble Lords on all supplementary questions having been asked and answered.
United Kingdom Internal Market Bill
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Parliamentary Constituencies Bill
Lord True ExcerptsThursday 15th October 2020
(3 years, 6 months ago)
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The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Lord True) (Con)
My Lords, I will most graciously yield—as they say in the US Senate—to the noble Baroness opposite shortly, but I should like to say to the House that we conclude now our work on the Parliamentary Consistencies Bill, which is the first Bill I have had the privilege of taking through the House. Once upon a time, it was my delight on a shining night, but I find now that I am no longer a poacher but a gamekeeper. I thank all noble Lords who have made this new role so properly testing but also rewarding in doing the work of the House and trying to get the best results on this legislation. I particularly thank my noble friend Lord Young and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd, for their constructive contributions on important amendments, and the many other Peers who spoke. Even though we have come to different opinions, of course I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, opposite, the noble Lord, Lord Lennie, and the quartet who spoke for the Liberal Democrats, the noble Lords, Lord Wallace of Saltaire, Lord Sharkey, Lord Tyler and Lord Rennard, for the time they put aside to explore their amendments and look for common ground in the margins of our debates.
I am sure noble Lords would like to join me in thanking the clerks and the digital team who have enabled these hybrid proceedings, not always without surprises, but that is no fault of theirs, I am sure. I also thank the officials on the Bill team for their tireless work in helping all of us to see the Bill proceed in a proper manner and to have the information needed.
We all agree on one thing: the constituencies of the UK Parliament are at the heart of our democracy. They are integral to a voter’s right to choose the Government of the day. As a result, the number, size and location of constituencies, and the way they are kept under review and up to date, are matters of the greatest importance. We therefore look forward to the further views of the other place and I look forward to continuing our discussions on these and related issues in future. I beg to move.
Parliamentary Constituencies Bill
Lord True ExcerptsThursday 8th October 2020
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Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)
My Lords, we do not need to detain the House on an amendment where everything has been said and has been said by everyone. I simply applaud the Government, as we have just heard, for seeing sense on this amendment, which answers one of the two fundamental issues which concerned us about moving from a final parliamentary sign-off towards automaticity—that is, the ability of the Executive to delay the implementation of the Boundary Commissions’ plans, despite having handed effective authority to the commissions to put those plans into law. Without this amendment, no one, neither the commissioners nor Parliament, could have forced the Government’s hand had they chosen to delay.
I retain one concern, which is that retained by the guinea pig—not the guinea pig, the noble Lord, Lord Hayward, who obviously gets his feeds on automaticity even faster than I can. The issue he raised about what might happen should the Government decide to call an election during that four-month period should continue to concern us.
I had assumed that “exceptional circumstances” meant that, but that in itself is quite worrying. As my noble friend Lord Grocott and the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, have said, we need more explanation about what exceptional circumstances are—putting aside Covid because, as my noble friend said, that would be dealt with in another way. Given that the Government are committed to repealing the Fixed-term Parliaments Act, which puts the decision back into No. 10, there must remain a worry that a difficult boundary review could somehow be circumvented. The Minister needs to allay these fears which, as he has heard, are from across the House.
The issue of the time cap introduced by this amendment was a major concern to us. It was not the major one for the Constitution Committee—we will come on to that shortly in Amendment 11, about moving to automaticity—but it was certainly one of our two major concerns. The fact that the Government have accepted and even put their name to the amendment means that it would be churlish for me not to say that we support it too.
The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Lord True) (Con)
My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have spoken in the debate. The House will not object if I say first that I thank and, indeed, congratulate my noble friend Lord Young of Cookham. Whenever I hear him speak in your Lordships’ House, I realise how much I have to learn in responding to your Lordships at this Dispatch Box. He has done a service to this House and to the electoral system, along with others who have raised this point. He was also skilful enough to get into a debate about Orders in Council and aperçu on the EU negotiations, which I do not think was strictly germane—my noble friend Lord Cormack followed on that—but I also agree with his sentiments there and hope very much that they will be translated into the languages of all 27 nations of the European Union.
The Government were happy to accept this amendment. The case was clear. The Government’s intention is to put beyond reach the idea that there might be unconscionable delay in laying these orders. It is of the utmost importance to us that it should not be felt by anyone that Parliament or the Government should have the opportunity to interfere politically in that way. I was grateful to have the opportunity to discuss with my noble friend Lord Young, other Members of the House and, indeed, the noble Baroness opposite the points raised. The noble Baroness has been very gracious and I greatly appreciate the courtesy with which she withdrew the first amendment and responded here. We may not be in agreement for all of today, but I appreciate that response.
I think there is widespread agreement and welcome for this. Therefore, I do not need to detain the House at great length. One or two points were raised about a Government calling a general election. Obviously, at the moment the rules around a general election are controlled by the Fixed-term Parliaments Act. So long as that obtains, we are legislating in that light. As far as the future is concerned, no doubt points have been put on the table, privately and publicly, which may be considered. There would always be a difficulty if there was suspicion in legislating on the matter. I am here to talk about future legislation, but the example of 1983 shows how difficult it would be to prevent a general election in the period before orders had been laid. That is something that people would have to wrestle with. The Government have no intention of seeking a general election. No Government should seek a general election to frustrate the presentation of these orders to a meeting of the Privy Council. The whole political world would deprecate that action and any Government that sought to do it would not be rewarded by the electorate.
The Deputy Speaker (Baroness Finlay of Llandaff) (CB)
Does the Minister wish to respond?
Lord True (Con)
My Lords, I do not think I need to add anything, except to say that I share my noble friend’s affectionate remembrance of Viscount Whitelaw, whose general election tour I managed in 1979. I had to learn to drink quite a lot of whisky in a short time.
Lord Young of Cookham (Con)
My Lords, I can be brief. I join the Minister in thanking all noble Lords who have taken part in this short debate. I suspect it is one of the more consensual debates that the House will have on the Bill. I thank noble Lords for their kind words about my role in the amendment. That approbation needs to be shared with the Minister.
Two issues arose in the debate: four months rather than three, and exceptional circumstances. It would be impossible for me to improve on the excellent explanations on both issues given by my noble friend in his reply to this debate so, without further ado, I beg to move.
Lord True (Con)
My Lords, there is a short period in the life of a Minister between being thanked by your Lordships for a response and disappointing your Lordships in a response, so I have enjoyed the last 10 minutes or so.
I have also enjoyed the last 40 minutes of this debate, which of course touches on extremely important points. The issue between us is whether the current system is capable of delivering people who are of high calibre, impartial, able and suitable to perform this key public responsibility. The simple contention of the Government is that the present system is suitable for purpose. I do not accept the animadversions of those who say that our public appointments system is in any way corrupt, or indeed corruptible. Also, I have never said anything about this Government other than that they are secured on a strong mandate from the people. That is perfectly legitimate to point out, although it is not relevant to the arguments before us. Those arguments, put so ably and charmingly by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd, are about not the nature of the mandate but the nature in which any Government carry out, and are enabled to carry out, their mandate.
I thank the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas, not only for raising these issues and tabling his amendment but for the meticulous research and work that he has undertaken, which he presented in Grand Committee. I also thank him for the opportunity to discuss, more than once, various ways in which one might address the conundrums that he has put forward. However, my strong contention is that the statutory approach that he suggests is not one that the Government can accept. I must politely resist it and reiterate the appropriateness and robustness of our existing appointments system.
The Government accept the importance of these posts but they argue that the processes are thorough, independent and fair, and that there is not room for inappropriate influence. The Government believe that the processes that we currently have in place for the recruitment of boundary commissioners are more than adequate. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas, says that he does not think that they are sufficient. Therefore, I must remind your Lordships of some of the systems and safeguards that apply.
Appointments to the Boundary Commissions are public appointments. The commissions are listed in the Public Appointments Order in Council, which provides for a governance code on public appointments and for the independent Commissioner for Public Appointments to regulate the process. The detailed governance code and the commissioner’s oversight ensure that appointments to the Boundary Commissions, and indeed to many hundreds of other bodies carrying out vital public work, are made openly and fairly on merit.
In addition to requirements in the governance code, as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas, has acknowledged, the legislation requires the deputy chair of each Boundary Commission to be a High Court judge. To have achieved such a senior judicial position, the deputy chair will therefore have undergone an intensive recruitment and vetting procedure: their suitability to provide impartial leadership of the highest calibre will have been tested in many walks of life. All deputy chairs are drawn from this pool.
The noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas, seeks to provide that the Lord Chief Justice is responsible for these appointments in England and Wales to safeguard, as he puts it, the independence of the deputy chair role. The Government do not consider this to be necessary, as the persons to be appointed are High Court judges, I repeat, and the Lord Chief Justice is consulted over these appointments. I must say to the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, that what people say looks bad is not necessarily bad. I believe that the system has delivered high-calibre appointees.
The second part of the amendment looks at the selection panel. The governance code has equally robust safeguards to ensure the political impartiality of members appointed to the Boundary Commissions. Members who support the deputy chair are appointed by Ministers, yes, having been assessed by an advisory assessment panel. It is the job of the panel to assess which candidates are appointable, so that Ministers may make an informed and appropriate decision. I am advised that it has never happened that a Minister has appointed someone not found appointable by an advisory assessment panel. In accordance with the governance code, the panel will include a senior departmental official, an independent member and a board-level representative of the body concerned. In the case of the Boundary Commission, that would, in practice, be the deputy chair—I repeat again, a High Court judge.
At the application stage, all candidates are asked to declare political activity of various kinds over the previous five years—having made significant donations and so on. Such activity will be taken into account in the panel’s deliberations and, in the case of these particular appointments, such activity would likely be seen as a conflict of interest. We cannot prejudge the work of future advisory assessment panels, but it seems likely that recent, significant political activity would present a degree of conflict that would be incompatible with their finding a candidate appointable.
The Government’s contention is that the public appointments system is fit for purpose. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas, and the noble Lord, Lord Janvrin, argued that this was insufficient, but I put it to noble Lords that, to date, this system has secured dedicated and expert members for the Boundary Commissions over decades, and the Government believe it should remain in place. To create a bespoke system, in primary legislation, for Boundary Commission appointments, as the amendment in the name of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas, sets out to do, could cast doubt, although he said it would not, on an independently regulated system that has ensured, and does ensure, that talented individuals with the right skills and experience are appointed to many hundreds of bodies across government carrying out vital public work. Are we to doubt those people appointed in this way today? Are we to doubt those recently appointed under this system to be Boundary Commissioners for Wales?
The noble and learned Lord’s amendment also proposes that there should be a single, non-renewable term of office for deputy chairs and members of the Boundary Commissions as a way of avoiding any potential, as he puts it, for an appointee’s actions to be influenced by a desire for reappointment. We do not think it advisable to make this change, and there are specific difficulties. We consider that if an individual is to serve one term only—a single, non-renewable term—it would need to be, my brief says, for eight years to ensure that they cover a boundary review, since, in future, reviews will be held every eight years. I seem to recall that, a few minutes ago, your Lordships voted for a review every 10 years. That would mean a single, non-renewable term of 10 years to ensure that a member took part in a boundary review. We are not aware of a board appointment of such length, and it is likely that such a stretch of time would be off-putting to at least some worthy candidates. Our contention is that appointments are currently based on a robust system. The system would prevent partial candidates being appointed in the first place—or, indeed, reappointed. We do not consider there to be a risk of appointing candidates who would be partisan.
Lord Cormack (Con)
My Lords, I have a very short question for my noble friend, to whom I have listened with great care and considerable sympathy. What can possibly be lost by putting the four constituent countries of the United Kingdom on a similar footing?
Lord True (Con)
My Lords, the matter before the House is whether the system for England and Wales is sufficient and effective. The contention I put to your Lordships’ House is that it is sufficient and effective. My noble friend will know in any case that the particular circumstances of Northern Ireland have long demanded different approaches.
Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd (CB) [V]
I thank all noble Lords for their contributions to this interesting debate and, in particular, I again thank the Minister for the courtesy he has shown me and for the time that his officials have given to looking at this matter. It seems to me, however, that four points emerge.
First, as the noble Lord, Lord Janvrin, put is so powerfully, we are concerned to ensure that not only is the commission impartial but that it is perceived and seen to be impartial. With the change brought about by automaticity, its role has changed so fundamentally that fundamental changes are needed to ensure that there is perceived impartiality.
Secondly, as to the position of the Lord Chief Justice, it is very difficult to see any argument in principle—the Minister has advanced none—for why it is not brought into line with Scotland and Northern Ireland or, as the noble Lord, Lord Hayward, put it, the position is restored to the appointment of the person by the head of the judiciary. It is important to appreciate the kind of world in which we now live. Certainly, my own experience is that people will dig to find connections, however spurious they may be. Some may remember the connections that were dug up in relation to a decision on which I sat in 2017. No judge should be put in a position where his or her appointment is called into question on the basis that they may have some connection that has made them favourable to the political Minister, particularly a Minister whose own constituency might well be affected by the Boundary Commission review.
Thirdly, it seems to me that this must be put in statutory form. I have made no criticism of the current appointment process in relation to how the commission currently works, but it has fundamentally changed. No assurances—as the noble Lord, Lord Beith, pointed out—can work because assurances do not bind future Governments and this is in a code not made under statute, merely by an Order in Council.
Fourthly, as to the term, there simply is no reason why the tenure cannot move to being akin to other important constitutional watchdog posts. Both the noble and learned Lord, Lord Morris of Aberavon, and the noble Lord, Lord Hayward, raised the interesting issue of bringing together the Local Government Boundary Commission in England and Wales and the parliamentary Boundary Commission. When looking at this matter, there is much that can be said in favour of such a move. However, that should in no way affect the basic constitutional principle that the appointment should be for a fixed, non-renewable term so that, in a case, the decisions that they make are not subject to a review by Parliament, or by anyone else, and must be accepted.
In the light of the Government’s position, I therefore wish to test the opinion of the House.
Lord Rennard (LD)
My Lords, in 2013 and 2018 plans for revisions to constituency boundaries were published. They did not find favour with MPs, the Government dare not even produce the 2018 report before Parliament for it to be considered, and these plans were never implemented. The plans themselves clearly demonstrated how much more massively disruptive all future boundaries will be compared with anything that has ever happened previously, when the boundary commissioners worked to their old rules, if they are now given very limited flexibility.
MPs on the House of Commons Political and Constitutional Reform Select Committee looked at the issue in the light of having seen the 2013 proposals. There was cross-party agreement then that there must be greater flexibility in the numerical quota for each constituency than 5% either way. That cross-party group of MPs examined the issues in detail and concluded that in order to avoid large numbers of anomalies in drawing up new boundaries, and major disruption with every review in future, a variation in constituency electorates of up to 10% is really required. The amendments now being considered are a compromise between that conclusion and the position of the Government, who seek only a 5% variation.
Amendment 13, the position of the Labour Party, provides for a variation of 7.5%, which is exactly half way between the position of the Commons Select Committee in 2015 and that of the Government now. Amendment 14, in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Tyler, provides for 7.5% variation, but also allows the Boundary Commission flexibility of 10% in exceptional cases.
A short while ago the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, suggested that there was a political conspiracy in these amendments, but the academic experts studying the issues have proved beyond reasonable doubt that there is no party advantage at all in permitting greater variation. I draw noble Lords’ attention in particular to a Private Member’s Bill currently before the House of Commons, which proposes a 7.5% variation, with 10-yearly reviews. The sponsors of the Bill are Mr Peter Bone and Sir Christopher Chope. These two Conservative MPs can hardly be described as champions of liberal democracy or as socialist conspirators. They may be accused of disloyalty to Boris Johnson, but I have checked, and there was nothing in the last Conservative Party manifesto about a 5% variation from the average electorate.
The aim of roughly equal-sized constituencies is one that we all share. There are international standards that can be applied to the creation of constituencies of roughly equal size. The Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe says that
“in a majority voting system, the size of the electorate should not vary by more than approximately ten percent from constituency to constituency.”
The Code of Good Practice in Electoral Matters produced by the Council of Europe’s Venice Commission states:
“The maximum admissible departure from the distribution criterion … should seldom exceed 10%”.
The additional variations proposed in these amendments are within these guidelines. Sadly, the time for deliberation about the consequences of allowing only a 5% variation was extremely limited among MPs when they debated the issues.
In Committee, the Members present heard the expert testimony of Dr David Rossiter. He explained how the Boundary Commissions must work within the boundaries of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland and, very significantly, also within the nine recognised regions of England. With the likely population changes over the eight-year period between each review, there would be changes to the quota of constituencies to be created in eight of these states or regions. Four of them would gain a seat and see new constituencies created; four of them would lose a seat and see constituencies abolished. This would trigger major changes, in at least two-thirds of these states or regions, in constituency boundaries.
The movement of local government wards, to redistribute those voters, would trigger large-scale changes across the entire state or English region. With an abolished seat, over 60,000 voters would have to be redistributed. When added to neighbouring seats, nearly all of those would then be over quota. These surplus voters would then have to be redistributed to other seats, in turn sending many of them over quota, and so on. Similarly, with the newly created seats, around 60,000 voters must come from somewhere. Taking them from other existing constituencies will put those constituencies under the quota. The knock-on consequences of putting those voters elsewhere will also stretch across the entire state or region. Unless we change the rules, a small population shift in Kent could, for example, require major changes not just across Kent but in East Sussex, West Sussex and Surrey and involve the creation of illogical seats that cross those county boundaries. In every region or state it will be the same.
Splitting local government wards may ameliorate some disruption, but for many reasons it is not generally possible to do that. Many MPs have clearly not appreciated the fact that a constituency within quota is not safe from change. Moving one ward from a constituency to the next one will not be the end of the matter. The upshot of all this is that there will be major changes to the boundaries of half or more constituencies every review. Only about one in five constituencies is likely to be unaffected by boundary changes.
Earlier in the debate, the Minister praised those who have previously served the Boundary Commissions. Let us look at what some of them have said. As the then secretary to the Boundary Commission for England told the Commons Select Committee in 2015,
“the smaller you make the tolerance level from the actual quota, the harder it becomes to take into account properly the other factors that are mentioned in the Act, such as not breaking local ties, respecting local authority boundaries, and minimising change.”
It is clear that 5% is too small a variation. It means that we will have many illogical constituencies that will ignore local ties, local authority boundaries, communities and basic geographic considerations. More importantly, perhaps, they will not last for very long because every time there is a review, there will again be massive disruption to the boundaries, with at least half the constituencies having major boundary changes. That is why we need to give the boundary commissioners a little more flexibility.
Lord True (Con)
My Lords, it has been another long and interesting debate and I am grateful to all noble Lords who have taken part. As some noble Lords have said—I recall the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, giving a notable speech—we have to be careful about seeing it top-down. A great deal has been said about the disaster for local communities if their MP changes. That can be exaggerated. The important thing is that the political system delivers good service from elected representatives.
I remember being absolutely horrified when I lost my best polling district—it was part of East Sheen and I thought it could not be moved out by a Local Government Boundary Commission into another ward. However, as the noble Lord, Lord Robathan, said, I am sure that nobody really noticed, for all my efforts over many years. I do not think we should exaggerate the sense that it is a disaster for a community if its elected representative changes.
The other thing I would say is that 5% tolerance either way is the existing position. It is not as if the Government have suddenly come out of the blue and said we must do this. Prior to 2011 there was no standard, but the coalition Government set in train the existing arrangements.
I thank those noble Lords who have put forward amendments similar to those in Committee. The arguments were much the same and I fear the response will be much the same. Amendment 12 is for a 12.5% difference, Amendment 13 is for a 15% tolerance, Amendment 14 is for a combination of 15% and 20%, and Amendment 18 is for up to 30% in the case of Wales. As I have clarified throughout the passage of the Bill, the Government believe that the current tolerance range of 10%—which is set out in existing legislation and agreed cross-party—remains the right one. This range allows the Boundary Commissions to propose constituencies up to 5% larger or smaller than the average UK constituency size. It is what we know as the electoral quota.
The Government are determined to ensure that all votes carry the same weight regardless of where an elector resides. I have been surprised that so many noble Lords are concerned at how equal the size of constituencies in this country might be. I can think of many things about which your Lordships might get exercised, but the idea that, in a democracy, the size of constituencies might be too equal seems an odd thing to get so excited about. Maintaining the current 10% tolerance is critical to delivering the Government’s 2019 manifesto pledge of retaining the status quo. It would be contradictory and counterproductive to wind back the current reasonable and practical 10% range.
Throughout the passage of the Bill, and again today, we have heard heartfelt and enriching anecdotes—I have enjoyed them—in efforts to emphasise the importance of community ties, local government boundaries and physical geography. The Government and the Boundary Commissions do not overlook these factors of importance. However, I repeat that the concept of equal votes—the simple idea that each constituency weight should count the same—is an equal, if not more powerful, factor. The Boundary Commission retains other criteria, and this is the cornerstone of our democracy. The only tool we have to ensure that equality—applying the electoral quota on a universal basis without introducing significant variability in constituency size—is to make the kind of provision in this Bill to sustain the current position, while simultaneously allowing an appropriate degree of flexibility to the Boundary Commissions so they can take account of some of the other important factors your Lordships have raised.
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)
My Lords, we have heard a Cornish voice that is almost as loud, although obviously not as musical, as the Welsh. Much of this makes perfect sense. Indeed, the issues raised here may also be felt strongly in the Ridings of Yorkshire or in the Black Country, even if they are not blessed with the same formal recognition.
The underlying problem is the Government’s refusal to understand communities, be these Welsh valleys or Cornish heritage. That is something I have heard a lot about, as my late sister-in-law, Ruth Simpson, was the first Labour mayor of Penzance. I have also spent a long time in Cawsand, which was—I hope this does not undermine the amendment—the old boundary between Cornwall and Devon, way beyond the bridge. That was a long time ago, but I certainly know the strength of that Cornish voice.
We hear these demands, but urge that we join together—as the Welsh, the Cornish and other locales—to continue to impress on the Government that communities, geography, nationhood, languages and the future of the Union matter, so that, even at this late stage, the Government might hear reason as the Bill returns to the Commons, and accept a flexibility to enable all these special areas to be recognised.
For that reason, though I think the noble Lord will not press his amendment, I hope we keep together on the main argument that constituency boundaries are too important to be decided merely numerically. They have enormous impact on the sense of fairness, representation and respect for national, regional or local history and for community.
Lord True (Con)
My Lords, I am grateful for the opportunity to respond to this short debate. Its brevity does not detract in any way from the importance of the points put forward. I am grateful to the noble Lords who have spoken. I have discovered that, as far as jam and cream are concerned, I am a Cornish man, rather than Devonian—not that I am allowed to eat such things any more; you can ask my wife about that.
I do not want to belittle the thing, but the one thing I would demur about is the suggestion that this Government do not care or have a concern about community. This Government have a profound concern for community, and every fibre of my being, in the life I have led in local government, reinforces that sense within me. I totally understand the passion, commitment and sense behind the amendment to protect constituencies in Cornwall.
I will not repeat the arguments that I made in Committee. There is a problem, and there is a reason why, in principle, it would potentially be difficult, in that other communities might argue and ask why they had not had the same protection. I mentioned Suffolk and Norfolk. I do not equate Cornwall with any other place—Cornwall is special—but, on the other hand, I remember a storm arising in a field in East Anglia when I was a very small boy, and my grandmother, who came from a long line of Lowestoft fisherfolk, as we call them these days, took my hand in hers and said, “Don’t worry, a storm can never cross the water,” by which she meant the River Waveney. There are places where boundaries are felt to be important. I believe community arises and is not measured against other people but within ourselves, within place and a range of things that make up who we are.
I understand where this amendment is coming from, and I understand the argument from community. I hope and expect that the Boundary Commission will recognise, with the latitude it has, the importance of community—including the sense of being Cornish. The Government are, however, committed to constituencies as equally sized as possible, and that aspect of the protection of constituencies, apart from with the islands, is held to be important.
The Government certainly understand the point. My noble friend Lord Bourne was manifest in this when he was a Minister and the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, was kind enough to say so, quite rightly. The Government recognise the importance of Cornwall and being Cornish. Indeed, last year we provided £200,000 of financial support, I believe, to fund a range of Cornish language projects, as well as work to tackle barriers to systematic education provision around the Cornish language. Although I cannot accept this amendment, I assure the House that the distinctive nature of Cornwall is understood. I am reinforced in feeling able to advise the House that we do not need this amendment because, as the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, said, our expectation is exactly his expectation: we do not expect, given the 600 constituencies and the tolerance suggested, that there should be a case or a need for the new constituencies to cross the Tamar. It appears likely that they will remain within those bounds and, if I am allowed to express a personal view from the Dispatch Box, I hope that they will. I am sure that will be shared by many in the Government.
I respect the views expressed here, and I understand them, but I do not believe, given the potential knock-on effects, such as questions as to why other communities and places are not recognised, that we should put it in statute. I hope that, having heard those assurances— and I repeat the sense that the Government are well aware of the importance of Cornishness and Cornish sentiment—that the noble Lord, who has spoken so ably on behalf of that great county, will feel able to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Tyler (LD) [V]
My Lords, I am very grateful to all Members who contributed to this short debate, particularly the Minister—and I will come back to him in a moment. In the meantime, I hope that all Members of your Lordships’ House recognise that the vote we undertook, less than an hour ago, to extend the tolerance either side of the quota norm to 7.5% actually makes it much easier for us to recognise Cornwall as a separate entity. That room for manoeuvre will, I think, as the Minister hinted just now, mean that there will not be another threat of a “Devon wall” seat. However, I do not take anything for granted: it might be that we will not have, when the Bill finally gets Royal Assent, that degree of flexibility. I just hope that we do. On the previous proposal for a seat that would cross the Tamar—the so-called “Devon wall” threat—I am sorry to say that a number of Conservatives, locally as well as nationally, just accepted it, which was very regrettable. We should have had unanimity across the parties, as we now have in Cornwall Council, as is represented by the letter it sent to us all.
The vote that took place less than an hour ago has made the situation simpler, because it is very unlikely that that threat to the boundary will happen again, as, indeed, the Minister has now accepted. I know that some would want to try to make sure that the removal of that threat became permanent. However, I am conscious, as someone who is keen to maintain the law and the constitution, that no Parliament can absolutely commit a successor, any more than a Government can. To pass an amendment at this stage might not be appropriate for the present review we are discussing and is unlikely to be necessary for a future review. Of course, that might not be a solid proposal if we get some fallback from our excellent vote of just a few minutes ago—but I think we can now be reasonably confident that there will not be another “Devon wall” seat in the immediate future.
I take seriously what the Minister has said. He said in terms, “Cornwall is special”. I have underlined that and write it in heavy type. I know he feels strongly about the boundary between Suffolk and Norfolk, which I happen also to know, but it is nothing like as firmly and clearly defined and delineated on the map of Great Britain as is the boundary between England and Cornwall. But I take seriously and respect what he has said. We all want to respect communities better and, par excellence, the community, history, integrity and identity of Cornwall is special. In the meantime, I am happy to beg to withdraw my amendment.
Baroness Gale (Lab) [V]
My Lords, I thank all those who have spoken to these amendments. It has been a very good gathering of Welsh Peers—when we speak about Wales, we know what we are talking about from our experience of travelling around Wales. My noble friend Lord Lipsey has always made a very good case for keeping Brecon and Radnorshire as a protected constituency; likewise Amendment 19 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Wigley.
These two constituencies cover a large geographic area of Wales, with Brecon and Radnorshire being the largest constituency by area in Wales or England, with a population of around 69,000 and an electorate of 53,000—we are talking about very big areas. Today, even with all the new technology, the MP needs to be seen and the constituents need access to their Member of Parliament. It is already difficult for the MPs to serve their constituencies, because of their size. A larger geographical constituency would only increase that difficulty, not only for the MPs but for the political parties that have to organise for elections and communicate with the electorate. How much more difficult will this be if the boundaries are extended?
We will continue to press on the Government that the geography and communities of Wales should be regarded as important considerations when looking at constituency boundaries. I hope the Government will listen to reason as the Bill returns to the Commons and add some flexibility, to enable these large geographical constituencies to be recognised, the main argument being that constituency boundaries are too important to be decided just on numbers. Such changes have an enormous impact on fairness, representation, and respect for local history, the people and the communities concerned. In Wales, the Welsh language is very important as well. I think a good case has been made and I trust the Minister will take note of the arguments we have put tonight.
Lord True (Con)
My Lords, again I am very grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken. First, I say to the noble Lord, Lord Lipsey, that I am sorry if he felt disobliged by anybody. To him and to any other noble Lord who wishes to discuss an amendment to a piece of legislation, I say that as long as I am at this Dispatch Box, my door is open to any noble Lord of any party who wishes to discuss a matter before the House. I was glad of the opportunity to talk to him. It is unfortunate, from his point of view and that of other noble Lords who have spoken, that amiable conversation does not always lead to identity of view.
I will not, at this late hour, repeat to the House the fundamental arguments as to why the Government are opposed to additional protected constituencies; I point out merely that had it been the policy of the Government to entertain protected constituencies beyond the islands we have discussed—and the Government did show flexibility in relation to Wales, with the decision on Ynys Môn—and had the Government been open to protect a particular constituency, I have no doubt that your Lordships would have been detained by not two or three but 40 or 50 amendments claiming due protection for different parts of our United Kingdom. Saying that is not to disparage in any way the passion, knowledge and commitment with which this amendment was argued —as, indeed, was the earlier amendment on Cornwall. I resisted the amendment on Cornwall for the same reasons.
I will add briefly some comments on the two amendments. This evening noble Lords again repeated arguments that were put in Grand Committee relating to the challenges associated with the size of large rural constituencies. We heard again tonight from the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, what the noble Lord, Lord Hain, said in Grand Committee: it takes two hours to drive from one end of Brecon and Radnorshire to the other. The noble Lord said, I think, that the Prime Minister could drive across his constituency in 10 minutes. I wonder if that is still the case, judging by the appalling delays being inflicted by Mayor Sadiq Khan on drivers in London currently.
EU Exit: End of Transition Period
Lord True Excerpts(3 years, 6 months ago)
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Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD) [V]
My Lords, I am not sure whether to sympathise with the Minister for having to defend a Statement with which he cannot entirely agree, to admire his loyalty in following each step the Government take towards a harder break with the EU than was ever hinted at by the Vote Leave campaign in the referendum, or to be appalled by his willingness to swallow the shifty rationalisations of the Johnson-Cummings-Gove cabal.
Yesterday in Grand Committee, the noble Lord, Lord True, attacked the European Union for challenging
“the United Kingdom’s well-established position on state aid”.—[Official Report, 23/9/20; col. GC 506.]
True or false? I asked two friends in the City if they knew what the Government’s established policy on state aid was and they burst out laughing at the idea that there is any clear policy. The interview that Lynton Crosby gave the Financial Times on Monday helped me to understand the Government’s current position. He said that
“in negotiations like this you need a little bit of crazy to keep your opponents guessing”.
I thought, “Ah, this is the art of the deal. The Donald Trump approach to negotiation—monster your opponents, talk tough, insist that they act reasonably, and either they will compromise further than they intended to or you can walk away and blame them for the failure. It is the Johnson-Trump playbook.” If the Statement is an attempt to bluff the EU into believing that we are well prepared for a no-deal outcome, it is clearly a failure. It shows that we are woefully unprepared and is an attempt to shift the blame onto business and potentially on to the French and Belgian Governments.
It has been clear to almost everyone concerned with the UK’s external trade since Theresa May’s Government decided to leave the single market that the channel ports would pose problems, except that Dominic Raab did not realise that and Boris Johnson did not bother to think about it. It was also clear that it would take well over a year to create the new infrastructure needed and to recruit and train the additional staff. Yet, here we are, 100 days short of 2021, and the Statement deplores a “lack of business preparedness”. The rest of us deplore the lack of government preparedness. The same mixture of incompetence, ideology and negligence that has marked the Government’s approach to Covid-19 marks their approach to the channel ports.
The same sweeping aside of inconvenient facts marks Ministers’ handling of the Irish border. The British Academy held its first seminar on the problem of the Irish border if the UK were to leave the EU in March 2016, attended by officials, among others. Yet the Prime Minister now claims that in October 2019, three years later, he still did not understand the complexity of the issue. The Statement refers to hundreds more Border Force staff “being recruited now”. Why were they not recruited months ago? How many of the additional Border Force and customs personnel required will be fully trained and in post by 1 January, and how many are still being recruited or trained?
The Statement refers to new technology being important. Is this now being fully tested and will it be in working order on 1 January? The Statement refers to “queues” and “associated disruption and delay” in Dover, at least for the first six months. What arrangements have been made to ensure that fresh food, vegetables and fish are not delayed beyond the point where they are spoiled, which would lead to shortages in British supermarkets? Can the Minister explain what is meant by the warning that
“if our neighbours decline to be pragmatic”
we will face the worst circumstances? Do we demand that the French and Belgians decline to enforce their own border checks because we are not ready to enforce our own? Is this the Trump-Johnson playbook again: “We are unreasonable but will pin the blame for chaos on you, unless you help get us out of the mess”?
The noble Lord, Lord True, will now defend Michael Gove’s extraordinary Statement with his weasel words about an “exit on Australian terms” and his fantasies about how a “truly sovereign state” may behave. I hope that there will come a point where the noble Lord will consider that his self-respect as a Conservative requires him not to follow Johnson and Cummings’s efforts further down the road to alternative reality and fake facts, be true to his best instincts instead and follow the principled example of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Keen.
The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Lord True) (Con)
My Lords, there were a number of observations there, some of which could be characterised as a little wide of the Statement and perhaps a little behind the game—the game being that the British people have decided to leave the European Union. We are leaving the single market and the customs union and are preparing for that. Frankly, continually railing about this situation—as the noble Lord, Lord Wallace of Saltaire, did with some colourful language in parts of his intervention—does not help us address some of the specific issues in this Statement. For the avoidance of doubt, I am very content with the direction of travel of the United Kingdom and this Government. Unfortunately, I cannot ease the angst of the Liberal Democrat party in that respect, but I note it. Since the noble Lord offered sympathy to me, I reciprocate.
So far as the specific questions I was asked are concerned, I hope I have made a note of most of them. If I have not, I will follow them up. The overall stance of both interventions was, “Why haven’t we done more sooner? Why are there still some uncertainties?” Obviously, there are still some uncertainties; that is the nature of a broad negotiation. The noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, went wide of the specifics in the Statement, as she fairly acknowledged, but much of the central, core stuff that this Statement is concerned with flows from the fact—which is not affected by whether we get a free trade agreement—that we are leaving the customs union and have to address that situation. We have already adjusted our own phasing of border controls up until July 2021 specifically to help. I note what was said about our friends and counterparties in other member states. Obviously, their policy decisions are for them, but we hope to have fruitful and helpful exchanges with them up to and through this process’s conclusion.
I was asked about Gibraltar. I assure the noble Baroness that the Foreign Office is working closely with Gibraltar and that its interests will very much be taken into account in the transition process. Next Monday there is a meeting of the withdrawal agreement joint committee, which will deal with a number of aspects.
Comment was made about the reports in newspapers about what was called the Kent access pass. It was said in newspapers that this was a border in Kent. The noble Baroness asked how this would operate. It is an approach related to road use, and it is not intended that every vehicle will be stopped. As the noble Baroness says, that would be difficult to do. The reality is that disruption will occur if vehicles without the right documentation arrive at the point of departure. The Government’s whole strategy—our conversations with the road haulage industry, the publicity campaigns we have been running and the process of “Check an HGV” and smart freight—is designed to make sure that the maximum number of haulage vehicles will have the appropriate documentation. If they enter Kent and do not have that documentation, it will be possible for that to be picked up by ANPR and other resources.
The concentration will be on the M2 and M20. The Kent Resilience Forum is looking at all aspects of movement in Kent, but it is a roads-based approach intended to reinforce the advice with an element of deterrent. The cost of the port and inland infra- structure is up to £470 million; some of that is in place. Conversations are ongoing with local authorities and local Members of Parliament about the specifics. Some of this has already been put in the public domain; more will come into the public domain shortly.
On standards, there is not a direct correlation between price and standards. Some very high-quality goods can be cheaper. One of the purposes of free trade deals, which the Statement quite rightly says will help many countries around the world, is that—this is in the history of free trade deals—they tend to lower prices. That is to the benefit of the underprivileged as well as the privileged.
Border Force recruitment is going on. I do not have the exact figures, but £10 million has been put aside to recruit around 500 more Border Force personnel and training is in progress. I will pick up the other points in the two statements after I sit down, when I see Hansard. There are various estimates of elements of the cost. I will try to help as far as I can.
This is a practical programme. There are many thousands of excellent civil servants working on it, and the Government have great confidence that Britain will be ready and able to trade from the end of the year.
The Deputy Speaker (Lord Faulkner of Worcester) (Lab)
My Lords, we now come to the 20 minutes allocated for Back-Bench questions. I ask that questions and answers be brief, so that I can call the maximum number of speakers.
Lord Mackay of Clashfern (Con) [V]
My Lords, the detail of the ultimate agreement, if any, is not known. What difference will it make whether we have a free trade agreement or no deal in respect of the preparations that are the subject of this Statement?
Lord True (Con)
That is a very important question, and it is important that it is understood. Whether we have a free trade deal must not be confused with the question of tariffs, and the question of tariffs will differ. Whether or not we get a Canada arrangement or another arrangement, my noble and learned friend is quite right that we will have left the single market and the customs union. That fact means that adjustments for businesses trading with the European Union will have to be made, and they are the subject of this Statement and the ongoing discussions. It is important that all businesses and people moving to and from the European Union understand the point lying behind my noble and learned friend’s question.
Lord Kerr of Kinlochard (CB) [V]
I am not shocked by Kent access permits; the Dutch have done the same already. Serious border friction and supply chain disruption are inevitable as the barriers Lord Cockfield tore down 40 years ago are rebuilt. Yes, it is absurd to have a ring-fence around Kent, but it is just a particular facet of a general absurdity. I would like to ask the Minister about businesses’ shock at Mr Gove blaming them for being unready. Ready for what? The Government have not produced the documents or the IT, so if the 50,000 new customs brokers had been recruited—I am sorry the Minister cannot tell us how many have been; perhaps he would write to us—they would be twiddling their thumbs with nothing to practise on. Will he say when the new IT systems will be tested and available for practice?
Lord True (Con)
My Lords, I did not hear that I was asked about customs agents originally, and I apologise to the House; £80 million was set aside for that. Not all that has been drawn down, but a good deal has. As for the specific IT we are talking about—the “Check an HGV” and the smart freight—next month detailed contacts and practice in that system will begin in concert with the road haulage industry. The target is to have that fully operational by December and the Government are confident it will be.
Baroness Donaghy (Lab) [V]
My Lords, the Government are urging businesses to prepare, even though many are in survival mode because of the pandemic. It might be wishful thinking that 43% of businesses think the transition period will be extended. They want the Government to do their job and negotiate a deal. We know we are leaving the EU, but we did not know we were leaving Kent. Instead of lecturing business, when will the Government make available the granular information promised? When will real help arrive?
Lord True (Con)
My Lords, there are a number of questions wrapped up there, and I did not answer the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, on one question. The Government are not blaming anybody. We are certainly not blaming the haulage industry or any other industry. We are pleading for everybody to work together to achieve the best outcome. I have said to the House that the specific freight IT which we have been talking about will be being tested next month and be operational by April. We have already published an iteration of the border operating model. There will be a new iteration of that published very shortly.
Baroness Kramer (LD) [V]
My Lords, small manufacturing exporters have been put in an impossible position, with no clarity on an FTA, high costs to adapt to borders and blows from Covid-19, and they have no capacity to prepare for multiple outcomes. Will the Government at the very least provide a beefed-up advice service, and will they use these last days of negotiation to focus on a simplified export regime for the little guys—something that does not seem to have been on the table at all—less onerous rules of origin, no duplication of conformity assessments and a pared-back AEO scheme? Frankly, without immediate action, many small guys will lose the willingness to engage properly in the Christmas trading season. That would be very bad news and mean that many go out of business.
Lord True (Con)
My Lords, I very much hope that this is not the case. I share the concerns of the noble Baroness for traders of all sizes, obviously, and assure her that the Government are reaching out to all those who are involved in trade across the channel and with the European Union. I repeat that we are extremely hopeful that this system will operate.
Lord Davies of Gower (Con) [V]
My Lords, I am grateful for this Statement and fully support Her Majesty’s Government on their efforts to reach a deal with the European Union. However, given the somewhat fragile nature of the negotiations and the knock-on effect that this will have should we end up leaving without a negotiated deal, what steps are Her Majesty’s Government taking to ensure that the devolved Government in Wales and other UK institutions are fully cognisant of any preparedness projects?
Lord True (Con)
My Lords, I thank my noble friend for his support for what the Government are doing. I am grateful for that. So far as the interests of Wales are concerned, obviously the ports of Holyhead and Fishguard are extremely important. We are in contact with the ports concerned and I expect there will be further announcements on that, but the conversations are ongoing. The Government have been engaging colleagues in the Welsh Government closely, including on further iterations of the border operating model which, as I told the House, will come shortly, so they will have a chance to comment. Officials from the UK Government and the Welsh Government have also been working closely to ensure that the right decisions are made on new infrastructure, as I have just stated.
Viscount Waverley (CB) [V]
My Lords, would the Government consider self-help for stakeholders by publishing a more regular flow of selective summaries of decisions made by the XO Committee of the Cabinet Office, which to date has had 136 meetings? Given that travelling to Kazakhstan may soon become easier than travelling to the markets of the European Union, that reportedly 70% of UK SMEs are still unprepared and that 30% of mid-sized businesses—the UK’s engine room of trade—are foreign-owned, do plans exist for assisting those that for whatever reason are not ready for the off and for working with foreign Governments to the extent that they will be equally concerned?
Lord True (Con)
My Lords, we negotiate with foreign Governments as appropriate. So far as information is concerned, obviously the noble Viscount will know that minutes of Cabinet Committees are not published. The Government are involved in a major publicity campaign. The “new start” campaign has already spent some £20 million of the £69 million that was put aside. The GOV.UK transition landing page that was launched in July has already had 2.4 million visits and there have been some 17.5 million page views of transition content. We have also built a transition checker with tailored actions that users must take for post-transition. So far, that has been completed 422,000 times.
Lord Dubs (Lab) [V]
Will the Minister confirm that the Government’s port infrastructure plan, which has been set at £200 million, will be increased if there is major demand for more money?
Lord True (Con)
My Lords, I cannot comment on the specific financial point, but further details of the port infrastructure fund will be published very shortly.
Lord Taylor of Goss Moor (LD) [V]
My Lords, the Minister makes the border around Kent sound very simple, with automatic number plate recognition. Once a lorry is recognised as not having the right export documentation, who will stop it, having decided whether it is going abroad without the documentation or just making a local delivery?
Lord True (Con)
My Lords, as far as local deliveries are concerned, the Kent Resilience Forum is putting material in place. I sought to explain that an effort will not be made to stop every vehicle. The expectation is that before they move to ports, vehicles should have the proper documentation. That is good for hauliers, traders and the country. The system being put in place will enable the interception of certain vehicles, which will be required to comply and be subject to a fine if they arrive at port having not complied. It is an exemplary system which we hope will encourage all to comply, as most traders will want to.
Baroness Noakes (Con)
My Lords, I congratulate the Government on the progress that they have made in being ready for 1 January and on the support that is being given to businesses. The former EU Internal Market Sub-Committee of the EU Committee, of which I was a member, issued a report in 2019 on Brexit and the implications for transport. It reported that the majority of the UK’s exports and imports of goods was handled by overseas hauliers, primarily in vehicles registered in Poland, Romania and Ireland. I know that the Government have been working very closely with the UK haulage industry. What has been done with foreign hauliers to ensure that they are ready, especially in view of their limited language skills?
Lord True (Con)
My Lords, the Government are certainly reaching out to all hauliers. I will provide my noble friend with details on those specific countries as soon as I can.
Lord Singh of Wimbledon (CB) [V]
My Lords, the Statement gives a sombre picture of what could happen on our exit from the EU, with only 24% of businesses believing that they are ready. We are reminded that the consequences could be destructive not only economically, but more widely, especially if the EU unreasonably continues to put its interests before ours. Does the Minister agree that our jingoistic and somewhat superior attitude to our former partners inhibits successful negotiations?
Lord True (Con)
My Lords, I do not believe that this Government have a jingoistic attitude or one of superiority towards our French partners or any others. My belief, and that of most people who know both nations and the member states on either end of the main transport routes, is that no one would see an interest in unnecessary disruption. What is before your Lordships is a reasonable worst-case scenario. It should not be taken as a prediction. I hope that over the next few months, people reflecting on these matters ensure that we come nowhere near such a scenario.
Lord Whitty (Lab) [V]
My Lords, the Minister said that this was a reasonable worst case. But, given the statements by the Freight Transport Association and the Road Haulage Association, neither of which believe that this system will be in place by January, is it not in fact closer to the most likely outcome, and do the Government not need to find a contingency arrangement that avoids the worst of this scenario?
Lord True (Con)
No, my Lords. We believe that the systems we are putting in place provide the best guarantee that we will avoid the worst case. I cannot promise that there will be no friction, but I do not accept the characterisation of the recent meetings between the Government and the Road Haulage Association. I believe that those meetings have been constructive. As I said, we have provided more than £80 million in funding to support customs intermediaries, and the measures that I have spoken of today will assist more road hauliers to become ready. The Government are not criticising anybody; they seek partnership, and I do not believe that throwing stones on either side of this constructive discussion helps.
Lord Roberts of Llandudno (LD) [V]
My Lords, on 15 July I asked the Minister what the intentions were regarding construction in the three Welsh ports. I was told that new facilities would be built because of the necessity for more checks and so on, and the trucks slowing down. On that date in July, I phoned Holyhead to ask what was happening and was told, “Nothing’s happening”. This morning, months later, I phoned again and the answer was, “Nothing has happened”. So when will these new facilities be provided? Also, is it the Government’s intention to invest in these ports or do they possibly intend to let the ships that now come through Holyhead, Fishguard and Pembroke Dock to go directly to the European mainland, avoiding those ports? If that happens, what will be the effect on the Welsh economy and on the jobless situation? Not very long ago, Holyhead had one of the highest rates of unemployment in the whole of the UK. What is the intention for Holyhead, Pembroke Dock and Fishguard?
Lord True (Con)
My Lords, I did mention the Welsh ports in an earlier answer. I assure the noble Lord that the interests of those ports are well in mind. I am surprised by what he said he was told. Of course, I absolutely accept what he says, but an additional multifunctional inland site is being progressed to serve Holyhead. As I also told the House, there will be a statement very shortly on the Port Infrastructure Fund as a whole—I mentioned Holyhead because the noble Lord did. I will check the claim that there have been no contacts with Holyhead and report back to him.
Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con) [V]
My Lords, the situation on the Irish border is desperately unclear. The EU Environment Sub-Committee concluded in July that the matter of qualifying status for Northern Ireland goods and businesses that will benefit from unfettered access to the rest of the UK market, taking into account all-island supply chains, is still unclear. What message does my noble friend have today for the agri-food producers, farmers and freight operators in Northern Ireland about what the status will be on 31 December this year?
Lord True (Con)
My Lords, as my noble friend knows, there are continuing discussions in relation to Northern Ireland, but we are taking all available steps to support trade readiness in Northern Ireland, including establishing a new and unprecedented trader support service. That is backed by funding of up to £200 million and will provide end-to-end support for businesses engaged in new processes. The importance of the state of Northern Ireland within our union and customs territory is undoubted.
Baroness Wheatcroft (Non-Afl) [V]
My Lords, transport and trade depend on GPS. Yesterday, I asked the Minister what preparations were being made for our continuing involvement in Galileo, given that the country has now abandoned its hare-brained scheme to try to create its own system. His response was that
“the EU’s offer on Galileo did not meet the UK’s defence and industrial requirements.”—[Official Report, 23/9/20; GC 554.]
Therefore, can he tell us what will meet those requirements and whether it will be in place at the end of the transition period?
Lord True (Con)
My Lords, I can only repeat the answer that I gave yesterday, which the noble Baroness very kindly read out. The Government believe that the infrastructure and IT systems that are put in place will meet the needs of this nation.
Lord Bilimoria (CB) [V]
My Lords, the coronavirus pandemic has consumed businesses’ attention over the last few months, and business preparations for the end of the transition period have not only stalled but gone backwards. This has left businesses with very little capacity to prepare for a chaotic exit from the EU. Does the Minister agree that the priority for business still has to be a negotiated outcome and that zero tariffs, zero quotas and formalised customs opinions will be to our benefit, generating £5.7 billion in benefits for exports and also for professional services? This is not just about the moving of physical goods. Firms have always been clear that the UK internal market must work in lock-step with the Northern Ireland protocol. Surely a deal will make sure that this is resolved and is an absolute priority.
Lord True (Con)
My Lords, again, of course I agree. I have always made it clear from this Dispatch Box that the Government hope very much that we will have a deal—a Canada-style deal—which I think will be in everybody’s interest. However, we have to deal with the situation in terms of leaving the customs union, whatever the outcome, as I said in my first Answer. The Government are investing £235 million—for example, in staffing and IT systems—including £100 million to improve and develop HMRC systems to reduce trader burdens, and £15 million to build new data infrastructure to enhance border management. The Government are working extraordinarily hard to keep this country open, prosperous, thriving and capable of taking the great opportunities that leaving the European Union will allow us.
The Deputy Speaker (Lord Faulkner of Worcester) (Lab)
My Lords, the time for questions to the Minister is up, and I apologise to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Morris of Aberavon, for not being able to call him.
EU: Future Relationship
Lord True Excerpts(3 years, 6 months ago)
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The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Lord True) (Con)
My Lords, I am grateful for the opportunity to open this debate for this Grand Committee to take note of the United Kingdom’s approach to negotiating the future relationship with the European Union. I am looking forward to the usual extraordinarily well-informed and wide-ranging views that we will no doubt hear from your Lordships this afternoon.
It is over four years since the British people voted to leave the European Union in the largest democratic exercise in this nation’s history. It was an historic vote for freedom, parliamentary sovereignty and change. Since then, two general elections have underlined and cemented the Government’s mandate. The road has been hard and, at times, I confess, difficult—not least in this House and sometimes the other place. However, at the beginning of this year, thanks to this Government, Britain left the European Union.
As the 19th-century Danish philosopher, Kierkegaard, once said:
“Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards.”
In that spirit, I believe that we must not lose sight of where we have come from. The principles of our approach for a future relationship are rooted in the mandates that the British people have repeatedly given the Government—and, indirectly, all political parties—to regain our political and economic independence. No matter what happens in the negotiations, by the end of this year we will leave the customs union and single market and become a fully independent and sovereign country.
There is no mystery about where the British people and Government stand. We have been clear from the outset that we are seeking a relationship that respects the independence for which the British people voted and for an agreement with a free trade agreement at its core—one similar to those that the European Union has readily agreed with other countries. We are asking not for a special or bespoke relationship but for one which is grounded in precedent, which is aligned with the parameters agreed in the political declaration and which builds on the European Union’s own past offer of a Canada-style deal. We have also always been clear that such a deal must of course accommodate the reality of the United Kingdom’s well-established position on state aid and fisheries and fully recognise the United Kingdom as a sovereign equal party.
However, the European Union has continually insisted not only that we must accept continuity with EU state aid and fisheries policy, but that this must be agreed before any further substantive work can be done in any other area of the negotiation, including on legal texts, making it unnecessarily difficult to make progress. There is still a lot of work to do, but it remains our goal to reach an agreement and we will continue to work hard to do so.
We have kept the House updated throughout the negotiations. I have issued Statements after each round of negotiations when the House has been sitting and did so most recently on 14 September. I can now update the House again on progress and I welcome the opportunity to be able to do so in a debate of this kind.
We have entered the final phase of negotiations with the European Union. The chief negotiators and their teams met in Brussels last week, as planned. As set out in the terms of reference published online, UK negotiators have continued informal discussions with the Commission between formal rounds. These informal discussions continue today in London on a range of areas. The next formal negotiating round—round nine—will take place in the week commencing 28 September. Before that, there were useful exchanges in the eighth negotiating round, with all issues being covered in some detail, including the most difficult ones. There are large areas of convergence in many areas and we will keep working to bridge the gaps.
However, differences still remain, including on fish and state aid, where the EU continues to ask for continuity of the status quo. On fisheries, we have been clear that we will not accept any proposals that compromise United Kingdom sovereignty over our fishing waters. We are seeking a relationship based on the European Union’s existing bilateral relationship with Norway. In order to make progress, the European Union must accept our position as an independent coastal state and any agreement on quotas must reflect that reality.
On state aid, the World Trade Organization rules are an internationally recognised common standard. Many major economies do not regulate subsidies beyond these rules. The European Union’s state aid rules are unique and have been developed specifically for the single market. The United Kingdom’s offer to the European Union goes further than World Trade Organization rules. We still believe that it would be straightforward to agree a free trade agreement, like those that the EU has agreed with other close partners around the world, and that this could be done quickly, but only if the European Union drops its unreasonable demands on fisheries and state aid.
As the Prime Minister has set out, there needs to be an agreement with the European Union by the time of the European Council on 15 October for it to be in force before the end of the transition period on 31 December. If there is no agreement, we would have a trading arrangement with the European Union like Australia’s. This would still be a good outcome for the United Kingdom. It would represent us reclaiming our independence as a sovereign nation, and that is what the British public voted for—twice. That said, I repeat that we remain committed to working hard to reach agreement by the middle of October.
Whatever the outcome, we have already done a lot of work to prepare businesses and citizens for the end of the transition period when we will leave the customs union and single market. In July, we launched a major public information campaign to encourage businesses and citizens to take action to prepare for the changes that will take place. In addition, we are taking a number of practical measures to prepare, particularly around borders. Also in July, we published the border operating model which, alongside a £705 million package of investment for border infrastructure, staff and technology, will ensure our borders are operational after the end of the transition period.
We have said that we will introduce new border controls in a pragmatic and flexible way in three stages up until 1 July 2021—an announcement that was widely welcomed. This approach gives industry extra time to prepare for the new procedures for goods coming into the United Kingdom, particularly in light of the impact of the pandemic. My right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster made a full Statement on border provision, which I shall, with the permission of your Lordships’ House, repeat shortly.
As we set out in May’s Command Paper, we are committed to working closely with businesses to implement the Northern Ireland protocol to ensure unfettered access to the rest of the United Kingdom and to maintain and strengthen the integrity and smooth operation of our internal market. In August, we set out further guidance for how goods will move into and out of Northern Ireland and the support available for businesses. For example, our new free-to-use Trader Support Service, backed by up to £200 million of funding, will also deal with all of the formalities on behalf of traders importing goods from Great Britain or the rest of the world.
The United Kingdom Internal Market Bill will protect jobs and trade across the whole of the United Kingdom after the transition period ends. It will guarantee that companies can trade unhindered in every part of the United Kingdom, as they have done for centuries, ensuring the continued prosperity of people and business across the four parts of the United Kingdom, while maintaining our leading high standards for consumers, workers, food, animal welfare and the environment.
On the measures relating to the Northern Ireland protocol that have—how shall I put it—prompted much discussion, these have been included as the actions of a responsible Government with a duty to uphold our commitments to the people of Northern Ireland. The measures create a safety net that ensures that Ministers can always deliver on their obligations and could take steps to protect the transformational progress in Northern Ireland seen in recent decades. Your Lordships will, of course, have the opportunity to scrutinise the Bill shortly, and I look forward to hearing your views then.
I have set out today our approach to negotiations with the European Union and have given an update. I have outlined how the Government are preparing, and helping businesses and citizens prepare, for the end of the transition period on 31 December, regardless of the outcome of the negotiations with the European Union. We have been clear from the outset that we are seeking a relationship that respects our sovereignty and which has a free trade agreement at its core. We have been clear from the outset that we will not accept any proposals, such as the EU’s offer on fisheries and the so-called level playing field, which compromise UK sovereignty. We now need the European Union to understand the fundamentals of our position as an independent, sovereign country.
We believe there is still an agreement to be had with the European Union and remain committed to working hard to reach one by the middle of October. We need an agreement by 15 October; otherwise this will mean that we will have a trading arrangement with the European Union like Australia’s. Whatever the outcome of negotiations, on 1 January, the United Kingdom will regain its economic and political independence and finally, after four long years of debate, honour the wishes of the British people. I beg to move.
Lord True (Con)
My Lords, as expected, this has been a robust debate; I think that is the word often used in your Lordships’ House, which is why it is such a splendid House. I am grateful to all noble Lords for their insightful and at times impassioned contributions.
I am fond of the game of cricket: I used to play it and I love watching it. One of the pleasing conventions of the game is that the umpire always gives the batsman the benefit of the doubt. Actually, that never seemed to happen much when there was an lbw shout against me—but that is the convention. I have tended to notice in some debates in your Lordships’ House, when EU matters and negotiations are discussed and when your Lordships are the umpire, the EU is always the batsman and the poor old British Government the bowler who never gets the benefit of any doubt. The EU is always entirely innocent, honourable and above board, and the UK Government always guilty as charged. It is not always that easy, although I think that the umpires would have differed today. The EU obviously would not accept my noble friend Lady Noakes as an umpire in this age of neutrality, and I suspect that the UK Government would not welcome the noble Lord, Lord Hain.
The noble Lord, Lord Hain, in a typically brilliant and well-argued speech, with which I profoundly disagreed, was really the trombone or perhaps even the tuba of the arguments of doom and gloom and futurology that we heard in the course of the debate. But the rest of the brass section and the woodwind were quite well developed in the debate. Richard Wagner or Richard Strauss would have been well pleased with the blasts of doubt that were piped out.
As many have said, we are where we are. As I said at the beginning, the mandate has not been given by some sort of sinister, unelected figures, whoever they might be—as was said by the noble Lord, Lord Judd. We are actually marching to a mandate given by the electors, the British people, more than once. That is what the British Government conceive as their duty—to accomplish what the British people have asked for—and that is what we will do, we hope with engagement and agreement with the European Union but, if that is not forthcoming, without it.
The noble Lord, Lord Rooker, made a delightful speech, as ever, with an imagined speech. I think that the chances of my right honourable friend Mr Johnson picking that one up are about as likely as a previous Prime Minister picking up the draft speech that I sent into No. 10 on this subject a few years ago. The reality is that there is no chance of the Government extending the transition period—and I must say that to the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, and the noble Baroness, Lady Wheatcroft. That is the law of the land.
A number of questions were asked, and I shall try to answer them in the time available. I am not going to talk out all the original time, noble Lords will be pleased to hear.
The noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, in a typically balanced speech—and I do not want to give the impression that there were none; there were a large number of very balanced and thoughtful speeches—reminded us of the importance of the work of your Lordships’ European Committee and its balanced and thoughtful contributions to our debates. I thank him and all members of the Select Committee for that and for the kind things that he said personally, which I gladly reciprocate.
The noble Earl mentioned the recitals. The position is that we remain fully committed to implementing the withdrawal agreement and the Northern Ireland protocol, and I shall come back to that in a moment. We have taken many practical steps on that. On the dispute mechanism, it does exist. The noble Earl asked why we would now legislate. The answer is that this is our last chance to introduce legislation, rightly or wrongly—and we will have great opportunities in your Lordships’ House to debate it in the weeks ahead—which would become law become law before 1 January. It is our last chance to put in place a safety net in case issues are not resolved, as we hope they are, in the joint committee.
Of course, the Government respect the rule of law. We have discussed this on several occasions in the House, and we will discuss it again on the Bill. In response to a number of noble Lords who spoke, understandably, on this subject, I repeat that we are fully committed to implementing the withdrawal agreement and Northern Ireland protocol. That is seen in the many practical steps that the Government have put in place to put those agreements into physical being. It is absolutely not the case in any circumstances that this Government would wish to undermine the Belfast agreement. Indeed, with regard to motivation, as I discussed when I answered the question in the House, the Government are very mindful that the Northern Ireland settlement, which we all wish profoundly to preserve, has an east-west dimension as well as a north-south one. It behoves the European Union to recognise that. It is just in these very tightly defined potential circumstances that Parliament is considering—and the House of Commons approved in Committee—the possibility of giving the powers that might disapply the EU law concept of direct effect.
I do not want to pursue that at the greatest length today, not because I demur from the question—I anticipate many hours of discussion on it—but the protocol had to solve very complicated issues and certain elements were left for ongoing discussion, as all noble Lords know, after the UK left the EU. They were drafted in a broad-brush way, and what is before us now is a safety net that ensures that Ministers can always deliver on the obligations to secure unfettered access to the rest of the UK for Northern Ireland. These are necessary steps in case agreement cannot be reached in the joint committee, but our objective is to reach agreement through the joint committee. We do not accept that, if people keep level and sensible heads, there is any reason why this need risk, as was put by someone in the debate, blowing up the talks altogether.
I was asked about citizens’ rights by the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, who made what I thought was a very well-argued opening speech, although again I did not agree with all of it. She asked a number of questions that I will endeavour to answer. UK citizens’ rights are of course of profound importance. I believe that we have done well in the United Kingdom in seeking to confer rights on the European citizens living in this country, and we are working constructively and continually with the EU member states on the implementation of rights in member state countries, as well as providing advice to UK nationals via our “living in” guides, which are on GOV.UK. However, we continue to call on EU member states to provide equal certainty to UK nationals. We want faster implementation, longer application windows and clear communication.
I was asked about Erasmus. The noble Baroness, Lady D’Souza, is right that we are considering participating on a time-limited basis, provided that it is in line with UK interests and we can agree on a fair financial contribution. Her Majesty’s Government are considering a wide range of options on student exchange, including, if needed, a domestic alternative.
On Galileo, however, I must repeat what I have said to the House before: the UK and the EU discussed the Galileo programme during the withdrawal agreement negotiation but the EU’s offer on Galileo did not meet the UK’s defence and industrial requirements.
The noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, and many other Peers, including the noble Lords, Lord Wallace of Saltaire and Lord Kerr, who made an interesting and balanced speech, asked about state aid. As I set out in the opening speech, there is a problem with state aid. The EU is asking to see the design of our state aid regime, which in any typical free trade agreement would not be within the scope of negotiations. As I said in my opening remarks, the EU state and aid rules are unique and were developed specifically for the single market. We are being clear that we are not going to become a high-subsidy regime at the end of the transition period but also, as an independent nation, we are not going to allow the EU a say over a UK domestic regime. As I have explained before, we will make clear our approach to subsidy policy at the end of the transition period in due course but we will do so on our timetable, not the EU’s. After the transition period the UK will have its own regime of subsidy control and will not be subject to the EU state aid regime. Again, as I said in my opening remarks, there are other well-established ways to regulate subsidies. The World Trade Organization rules are an internationally recognised common standard and many major economies do not regulate subsidies beyond those rules. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, in welcoming the fact that the EU has rowed back from some of its demands in this area.
As I set out before, all we would need to agree is a mechanism to resolve any disputes with the EU, as is the case between countries which trade under a free trade agreement on WTO terms. For our future arrangements, we have proposed appropriate dispute settlement procedures, including arbitration where it is precedented. We have heard the EU’s concerns about a complex, Switzerland-style set of agreements, and we are ready to consider simpler structures, provided satisfactory terms can be found for dispute settlement and governance. The UK’s offer to the EU on subsidy control goes further than WTO rules, and we continue our negotiations on that matter.
On trade more widely, I will have to leave it to my right honourable friend Liz Truss to set out a broad statement on trade, but I say to the noble Viscount, Lord Waverley, that my noble friend Lord Wei made some very strong and important points in this area. Trade deals with other nations are not to be derided. One of the benefits of leaving the EU is to deliver an independent trade policy for the UK that works in the interests of our businesses and our consumers. We want to start negotiating with new trading partners as soon as possible to take the new opportunities they offer, of which my noble friends Lord Wei and Lord Lilley and other noble Lords spoke. Noble Lords will know that the UK Government have announced their aim to secure free trade agreements with countries covering 80% of UK trade within the next three years—including, we hope, with the European Union—and negotiations with priority partners on free trade agreements are currently taking place.
The position of the Government remains that at a time of growing protectionism, free trade agreements provide economic security at home and opportunities abroad. They help improve the resilience of supply chains through diversity and opening new markets for business, bringing investment, better jobs, higher wages and lower prices when we need them most. I agree with what my noble friend Lord Wei said on that.
I was asked about engagement with the devolved Administrations, to which we attach great importance. We are committed to working closely with the devolved Administrations throughout negotiations with the EU to ensure a future relationship that works in the interests of the whole UK. The UK Government have been working closely and having constructive discussions with the devolved Administrations during those negotiations, and I do not agree with some of the remarks that were made on that score. We will continue to engage at both ministerial and official level.
As noble Lords will know, at ministerial level, the Joint Ministerial Committee (EU Negotiations), or JMC(EN) in the jargon, is a forum for the devolved Administrations and the UK Government to engage and discuss the UK’s approach to negotiations with the EU. It is the principal route for Ministers in the devolved Administrations to input collectively into the UK Government’s negotiating approach. This is supported by frequent official and ministerial bilateral engagement. Attended by delegates from the UK Government, the Welsh Government, the Scottish Government and the Northern Ireland Executive, the 25th Joint Ministerial Committee met on 3 September via video conference chaired by the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster. It was a constructive meeting which discussed ongoing negotiations relating to the future UK-EU free trade agreement and the wider relationship, preparedness for the end of the transition period on 31 December, and an update on common frameworks. In answer to the noble Baroness opposite, I underline that we recognise the significant interests of the devolved institutions in our negotiations and we have been clear that they should be fully consulted in preparations.
A number of noble Lords asked about security. There is a good deal of convergence in what the EU and UK are seeking to negotiate in terms of operational capability. We will keep working to bridge the gaps where differences remain.
The EU has listened to the UK on some of the issues most important to us and we welcome that more pragmatic approach. There is, in our judgment, still an agreement to be had, and we will continue to work hard to achieve it, but we must also continue preparing for all possible scenarios at the end of the transition period.
The safety and security of our citizens is the Government’s top priority. We continue to discuss with the European Union an agreement on law enforcement and criminal justice co-operation in criminal matters. The agreement should equip operational partners on both sides with the capabilities that help to protect citizens and bring criminals to justice, promoting the security of all our citizens. The UK will continue to be a global leader and good partner on security and, I hope and pray, one of the safest countries in the world.
I was asked about financial services in negotiations, which is obviously a crucially important area. We are seeking to provide a predictable, transparent and business-friendly environment for firms to undertake cross-border financial services business. An FTA chapter would sit alongside our respective equivalence assessments, which are progressing in parallel to the FTA negotiations. As we have always said, however, co-operation mechanisms should be proportionate to the level of market access agreed. It therefore makes sense to return to co-operation once the FTA negotiations are more advanced. However, it is disappointing that the EU did not wish to engage with our proposal for regulatory co-operation within the framework of the FTA. After all, this was something it had previously agreed with Japan, but we must proceed with the art of the possible. I am pleased to note—and I underline—what my right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster said in the House of Commons earlier, that he is confident of securing a good deal on financial services.
I was asked about fisheries. As we have set out many times, and as I said at the start, we will not accept proposals that compromise UK sovereignty over our own fishing waters. We are looking for a relationship based on the EU’s existing bilateral arrangement with Norway. Our position on fish is, we contend, reasonable and straightforward. We want a simple, separate fisheries framework agreement that reflects our rights under law and provides for annual negotiations over access and sharing opportunities based on the scientific principle of zonal attachment. That is squarely in line with existing precedent.
We contend and believe that the scientific principle of zonal attachment better reflects where the fish live; in practice, it means the share of a stock of fish residing within a particular country’s economic zone. That is, as I say, the basis for the EU’s existing fisheries agreement with Norway. However, the EU wants to maintain the current access provisions that it enjoys under the relative stability mechanism, which is based on historical fishing activity from the 1970s, and rejects zonal attachment as a principle on which to base future sharing arrangements. Until the EU is willing to accept reality and to have a science-based discussion about the future, it will be difficult to move forward. In order to make progress, the EU must accept our position as an independent coastal state, and any agreement on quotas must reflect that reality.
I was asked about readiness for the end of the transition period and borders; with the permission of the House, I will be making—or repeating—a Statement on that tomorrow, so I will not go into the full details. I was told that I was “opaque” and “motherhood and apple pie” on this subject. Unfortunately, my dear beloved late mother used to give me a lot of very good Bramley apple pie when I was young, and that is probably why I have grown up being rather chubby and opaque. However, I will try to please the House better on this subject.
We are taking a practical, pragmatic and flexible approach to using some of our regained powers as a sovereign nation, and we are pragmatic in the sense of trying to help all practitioners and users of the borders by deciding to introduce new border controls in three stages up until 1 July 2021. This should help business and industry benefit from extra time to adjust. We published the border operating model in July, announced a new £50 million support package to boost the capacity of the customs intermediary sector, and are committed to building new border facilities in Great Britain for carrying out customs checks.
Additionally—as I said earlier—we have announced an unprecedented £705 million package of investment for border infrastructure, staff and technology to ensure that our border systems are fully operational after the end of the transition period. Of course, we are committed to working closely with businesses as we implement the system; they are at the heart of our approach. However, it is not criticising or blaming business to say that it is critical that businesses across the country should continue with preparations for the end of the transition period. Today does mark a key milestone for citizens and businesses because there are now just 100 days to go until we regain our political and economic independence on 1 January, when the UK will have left the single market and customs union, and there will be change—whether there is a free trade agreement or not. I say again: for our country, this should be a moment of great opportunity as well as significant change. All of us can and should make sure that we are prepared, and I am sure we will return to that tomorrow.
I was asked about social security. We are discussing these matters and had a most useful discussion on social security in the most recent round. We expect to discuss the matters further.
I must conclude in two minutes, so I will wrap up. I could not resist referring to the “oven-ready” charge. I must say that, for the electric oven I know and use, you need two buttons or dials to turn it on to cook the turkey. Unfortunately, in the course of these negotiations, the EU has sometimes not been ready to turn the dial with regard to picking up texts and other issues. Let us hope that that now ends. It is a characteristic of our beloved friends in Europe—and they are our friends—that, sometimes, negotiations are allowed to run long. We cannot let them run on indefinitely—precisely for the reasons of certainty and clarity that others referred to.
The noble Lord, Lord Liddle, asked where we were going. We are going—I hope—towards a future of friendship and co-operation with the nations of Europe and, as my noble friend Lord Shinkwin said, Europe is not only the European Union; it is something wider. We did leave the European Union in January this year, and we want a relationship with it that is based on friendly co-operation between sovereign equals and centred on free trade. We will have a relationship with our European friends inspired by our shared history and values. We want to reach an agreement, but we cannot compromise on the fundamentals of what it means to be an independent country to get that deal.
Brexit: Civil Service Code
Lord True Excerpts(3 years, 7 months ago)
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Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town
To ask Her Majesty’s Government, in the light of reports that new guidance has been issued to civil servants working on Brexit, whether civil servants are expected to “comply with the law and uphold the administration of justice” as set out in the Civil Service Code.
The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Lord True) (Con)
My Lords, all civil servants are subject to the Civil Service Code in supporting the Government to put forward the United Kingdom Internal Market Bill for debate in Parliament. The previous Cabinet Secretary was clear at the time that civil servants could and should work on the legislation and its passage through Parliament, as set out in the Government’s legal statement.
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab) [V]
Despite the resignation of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Keen, over the Government’s breach of international law, other Ministers seem to kid themselves that it does not conflict with their Ministerial Code. However, the resignation of Whitehall’s top legal officer, Sir Jonathan Jones, suggests that the work on the internal markets Bill could breach the Civil Service Code’s requirement to comply with the law—despite the new Cabinet Secretary’s apparent offering of safe harbour. Given that one senior civil servant, we hear, has advised colleagues uncomfortable with this to alert their superiors, would the Government extend the directions mechanism from expenditure to policy work, so that Ministers can be asked to provide a direction to work on Clauses 42 to 45? Can the Minister assure the House that no civil servant will be expected to breach their code?
Lord True (Con)
My Lords, the situation should not arise because, as the noble Baroness has said, the new Cabinet Secretary has confirmed that he is content for civil servants to work on the Bill and to support Ministers in their duties as it passes through the House. Civil servants are not being asked to act in a way that conflicts with the Civil Service Code. That is the position.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD) [V]
My Lords, the Civil Service Code states very clearly, regarding integrity:
“You must … comply with the law”.
The Government’s legal position states that parliamentary sovereignty can override international agreements, but not domestic law. The withdrawal agreement was passed by both Houses of Parliament and thus became—less than nine months ago—part of our domestic law. If the Cabinet Secretary is now telling civil servants that they can disregard this part of the Civil Service Code, is it not appropriate that the Minister for the Civil Service should make a Statement to Parliament, given that the Constitutional Reform and Governance Act makes it clear that the Minister for the Civil Service is responsible to Parliament for the Civil Service Code?
Lord True (Con)
My Lords, as I have said, the Cabinet Secretary has made the position clear. All civil servants are of course expected to carry out their role with dedication and commitment to the Civil Service and its core values of integrity, honesty, objectivity and impartiality, which are, as the noble Lord has said, set out in legislation. In my experience, every civil servant rises to that high level required. The Cabinet Secretary has said that he is content for civil servants to work on this Bill.
Lord Singh of Wimbledon (CB) [V]
Does the Minister agree that reports on re-educating civil servants on how to comply with the law and the administration of justice have somewhat Orwellian connotations?
Lord True (Con)
My Lords, I am not familiar with the reports referred to by the noble Lord, but neither I nor any other Minister is auditioning for a part in an Orwell drama.
Lord Blunkett (Lab)
My Lords, this goes much wider in terms of the pressure on the Civil Service to abandon that key element of impartiality. Does the Minister accept that there is a very real danger at the moment, with the Civil Service being asked to collude with procurement policies that not only lack transparency but border on nepotism? Margaret Thatcher’s phrase, about whether someone is “one of us”, is now applied to appointments inside and outside the system. In such circumstances, while we can get rid of a Government when they lose trust, once we lose trust in our institutions, in the application of our law or in the impartiality of our Civil Service, we will be seen by the rest of the world as a tinpot regime.
Lord True (Con)
I do not agree with that and I regret that the noble Lord—with his enormous experience in government, which I hugely admire—takes that view. Everybody in this House and outside who has had experience of working with the Civil Service, as I have over many years, understands the relationship. Sometimes we each have to do things—even Ministers—that, in our heart of hearts, we do not agree with. There is a clear process for civil servants who believe that they are being required to act in a way that conflicts with the code. That system exists and is set out in writing; it is available to the House and I am happy to circulate it to Members. The safeguards are there.
Lord Beith (LD)
My Lords, the Attorney-General is said to believe that the obligations under the Civil Service and Ministerial Codes apply to keeping domestic law, but not international law. Is that the Government’s position, or is their position, as set out by the noble Lord, Lord Faulks, when he was a Justice Minister, that:
“The obligations on Ministers under the law, including international law, remain unchanged.”—[Official Report, 3/11/15; col. 1522.]
Lord True (Con)
My Lords, I am not going to repeat in detail any position that the Attorney-General may or may not have set out. There are traditional rules on that. The Government’s legal position has been set out and sent to the chairmen of the Select Committees. Do the Government maintain the position set out by previous Administrations that law includes international law? Yes, they do.
Lord Rooker (Lab) [V]
My Lords, what concerns me is how civil servants who might be involved in corruption trials relating to the substantial number of multimillion pound Government contracts let without competition to friends of a special adviser to the Prime Minister will be advised. Any advice from the Minister to them?
Lord True (Con)
My Lords, I think it is mildly wide of the Question before the House. Also, some quite serious allegations were made by the noble Lord. I simply repeat that there are very clear procedures available for civil servants who believe that they are being required to act in a way that conflicts with the code. They can start by taking it to their line manager, and the process goes on. As I have said, I am happy to circulate the appropriate procedures to the House.
Baroness Noakes (Con)
My Lords, noble Lords have focused on one particular aspect of the Civil Service Code, but there are many other requirements, one of which is that civil servants must not
“frustrate the implementation of policies once decisions are taken by declining to take, or abstaining from, action which flows from those decisions.”
Will my noble friend agree that the balancing of the different requirements in the Civil Service Code is best handled by the Civil Service under the procedures he has referred to, and not by a party-political Parliament?
Lord True (Con)
Yes, I strongly agree with my noble friend. I do think this is a matter that should be left to the judgment of the leaders of the Civil Service—the Cabinet Secretary of the time being the main one. My noble friend is of course quite right to say that—and this was reinforced in the Constitutional Reform and Governance Act—certain duties and responsibilities do apply to civil servants.
Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Non-Afl) [V]
My Lords, could the Minister indicate what discussions have taken place with the Northern Ireland Civil Service regarding the application of the Civil Service Code when there are suggestions of non-compliance with the law—both international and domestic—since the Internal Market Bill will directly impact Northern Ireland?
Lord True (Con)
My Lords, I have not been advised on this specific matter within the devolved Administrations and in Northern Ireland, but I will write to the noble Baroness on the subject.
Lord Morris of Aberavon (Lab) [V]
My Lords, given the Prime Minister’s foreword,
“we must uphold the very highest standards of propriety,”
do the remaining law officers intend to cling to office, where they are aiders and abetters of potential illegality? Has the Lord Chancellor any anxiety about interpreting his statutory duties to uphold the rule of law?
Lord True (Con)
My Lords, the law officers act at all times in line with their duties and responsibilities, and I have every confidence that the law officers and this Government will continue to do so. For my own part, I cannot answer questions about the personal positions of other members of the Government.
Lord Balfe (Con)
The Question states,
“in the light of reports that new guidance has been issued”.
Could the Minister say whether new guidance has been issued? If it has, will he place a copy in the Library for us to consult? My second point is that it is now 59 years since I became an established civil servant. We have much more of a revolving door these days, and I fear that far too many senior civil servants and Ministers are looking at their next job in the private sector when they are interpreting the regulations. Could the Minister comment as to whether it might be time to review the whole principle of the revolving door? Incidentally, I notice that his colleague, Mr Grayling, went into a £100,000 job this morning, according to the Times.
Lord True (Con)
My Lords, the last part of my noble friend’s question is again outwith the Question, but it is an important issue and one that the Government and Parliament turn their attention to from time to time. I am sure that people will note his remarks. As for the reports of a new communication, obviously I made inquiries, as was my duty, having seen the Question. We have not been able to locate this particular communication but if, as has been reported, it is a restatement of the long-standing position which is expressed in the Civil Service Code—that if civil servants ever believe they are being required to act in a way that conflicts with the code, they should raise it with their line manager, et cetera—I have already told the House that that is the position and it is unchanged. I do not know whether this alleged communication was saying that. If it was, in a sense I have already offered to put that before the House, but I will take it away.
It is extremely important that we do not let the idea be taken that there is conflict and distaste between Ministers and civil servants. That is not the case; it is partnership. Sometimes, things break out. I was reading Servants of the People the other day, in which Ministers are quoted as saying, “Civil servants are useless” and, “We expected to find Rolls-Royce service; we found a Reliant Robin”. People say things and there are moments of crisis in relationships, but my experience is that there is an outstanding relationship between the ministerial side and the Civil Service side under every Government, whatever one hears reported in the press.
Lord Cormack (Con)
My Lords, it seems to many of us that there is a less healthy relationship between certain special advisers and Ministers, and that there is a real difference between the code of propriety observed through the centuries by civil servants and the code observed by these more recent arrivals. Will my noble friend arrange for every special adviser and every Minister of the Crown to be sent a copy of the admirable article by our noble friend Lord Hague which appeared in the Daily Telegraph earlier this week?
Lord True (Con)
My Lords, I am not personally responsible for the reading habits of every member of the Civil Service, the special adviser corps or the Government. I am sure people have noted what was said. Special advisers are subject to a code. I think that in public life we should all treat each other with grace and understanding, and every now and again there has to be a bit of give and take, of leave and understanding. The fundamental core of Civil Service impartiality remains. The Civil Service’s role as defined in law and practice is something that I and this Government profoundly respect and I am sure it will continue under whoever has the honour of acting as part of the Government in the future.
The Deputy Speaker (Lord McNicol of West Kilbride) (Lab)
My Lords, all supplementary questions have now been asked.
House of Lords: Number of Members
Lord True Excerpts(3 years, 7 months ago)
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Lord Grocott
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the case for an upper limit on the number of members of the House of Lords.
The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Lord True) (Con)
My Lords, the size of the House of Lords needs addressing, but given retirements and other departures, some new Members are essential to keep the expertise and outlook of the House fresh. This will ensure that the House continues to fulfil its role in scrutinising and revising legislation, while respecting the primacy of the Commons.
Lord Grocott (Lab) [V]
My Lords, when the Minister checks Hansard, he will see that that was not an Answer to the Question that I put. Is he aware of the concern right across the House that, at a time when we are voluntarily reducing our numbers, the Government seem to be going in exactly the opposite direction? Have the Johnson Government abandoned the May Government’s support for reducing our size, and do they believe that there should be any limit whatever on how much larger the House should become?
Lord True (Con)
My Lords, the preceding Prime Minister did not accept the Burns committee’s recommendation that the Prime Minister should commit to a specific cap on numbers, and that is the position of the Government.
Lord Dubs (Lab) [V]
My Lords, is not the truth that the Government are doing everything possible to belittle this place by stuffing it, staffing the Tory Benches and other means? Is not the problem for the Government that they want to reduce the legitimacy of this House because they do not like our stand on humanitarian principles and the rule of law?
Lord True (Con)
My Lords, the noble Lord sat in this House when it was much larger than it is today. So far as stuffing the House is concerned, Mr Blair put 374 Peers in this place.
Lord Wigley (PC) [V]
My Lords, my party, Plaid Cymru, has four times as many Members in the House of Commons as it has in this Chamber. If the proportions were correct, we would have a Chamber of just 200 Members. Given that that is not going to happen, is the only way for smaller parties to get a fair voice here by having a fully elected Chamber that would deliver greater representational fairness and give this Chamber the political credibility that it currently lacks?
Lord True (Con)
My Lords, the voice of Wales is extraordinarily important, and it is well served in this House by some of the outstanding Members who come from that great Principality. The noble Lord makes a point of policy. The last coalition Government presented to your Lordships and the other place proposals for an elected House, but they did not at that time find favour.
Baroness Noakes (Con)
My Lords, last year, your Lordships’ House demonstrated that it was spectacularly out of step with the country as a whole over Brexit. Does the Minister agree that it is more important to remedy that than to focus on the numerical size of the House?
Lord True (Con)
My Lords, every Member of your Lordships’ House has the right to express a personal opinion, and long may we do so. However, it is important, as my noble friend says, that the House reflects on the risk of becoming out of step with public opinion on this great question.
Lord Tyler (LD) [V]
My Lords, does the Minister accept that, following the huge majority for the 2012 House of Lords Reform Bill which Sir George Young, as he then was, secured at Second Reading, this House could by now be well on the way to being a 450-strong senate with a democratic mandate? Further, will he acknowledge that it was only the silly party games played by the then Labour leadership with reactionary Tory Back-Benchers that stopped that Bill in its tracks?
Lord True (Con)
My Lords, I think that the noble Lord has rather upset our colleagues on the Labour Benches. Many histories of that period could be written. The fact is that legislation was presented and, as I said in an earlier answer, it did not find favour at the time.
Lord Norton of Louth (Con) [V]
Does my noble friend accept that an upper limit on the size of the House would impose a valuable discipline upon the Government in selecting nominees to fill a vacancy, and, combined with the other recommendations of the Burns committee, ensure a House that was not only smaller but more balanced than the existing House?
Lord True (Con)
No, my Lords. The cardinal facts of this House—which is unique, and that is one of its splendours—are that it is unelected, its Members sit for life and it cannot be dissolved. In those circumstances, the question of a cap raises profound constitutional questions, which, as the previous Prime Minister said, deserve reflection.
Baroness Hayman (CB) [V]
My Lords, when numbers in your Lordships’ House go up, public respect for the House goes down. The Minister said that the previous Prime Minister did not endorse a cap on the size of the House, and that is quite correct, but she did commit to restraint in appointments. Given how seriously the House takes the issue of reducing numbers, can the Minister tell me what conversations the noble Baroness the Leader of the House—the whole House—has had with colleagues in the House, with the leaders and the Convenor, and with her right honourable friend the Prime Minister, about this issue? If he does not have that information to hand, perhaps he could write to me.
Lord True (Con)
My Lords, as that question is about the Leader of the House, I think that she would have to address it herself. So far as the numbers are concerned, I dispute that there is any correlation between the size of the House and the respect in which it is held. I remember the very great respect in which the House was held before 1999.
Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
My Lords, there is so much in what the Minister has said that it is hard to know where to start. First, his Answer to my noble friend Lord Grocott on what assessment has been made of the case for an upper limit was that no assessment has been made. On his point about the House having been larger, it was significantly larger pre-1999, with a large number of hereditary Peers, 92 of whom remain. On his comment about Prime Ministers making appointments, the fact remains that David Cameron, when Prime Minister, appointed more Peers per year than any other Prime Minister since 1958, when life peerages came in, with more for the governing party.
The Minister talks about the House needing to be refreshed, and he is absolutely right. However, if he wants to refresh the numbers in the House, why is it that, having lost over 30 Members from the Labour Benches since June 2017, nothing like that figure has replaced them to refresh our numbers, whereas there were huge numbers on the last list to refresh the Conservative Benches? If this House wants to reduce the numbers, it must be so that we can be effective and do the job that we are best at, not to play party-political games, which the leader of the Conservative Party, the Prime Minister, seems to want to do. He wants to play the numbers game and pack this House, because he thinks that the winner takes all.
Lord True (Con)
My Lords, I do not agree with the strictures of the noble Baroness, who I respect tremendously. I said in my first Answer that the size of the Lords needs addressing, but I added some considerations thereafter. I do not accept that my right honourable friend the Prime Minister is “packing the House”. The question asked by my noble friend Lady Noakes shows that the House has a very independent mind.
The Senior Deputy Speaker (Lord McFall of Alcluith)
I call the noble Lord, Lord Roberts of Llandudno. Lord Roberts? I call the noble Baroness, Lady Deech.
Baroness Deech (CB) [V]
It seems to me that legislation to cap our numbers is being blocked in a way that does us no credit. Will the Minister urge the party groupings each to find a consensual way to limit their own numbers? The House of Lords Appointments Commission needs power to vet the suitability of proposed Peers or to cap the numbers. I hope that he agrees. If ever there was a case for getting rid of royal prerogative, this is it. I suspect that the Government think that only by shovelling us into a less comfortable venue during refurbishment, or by going entirely virtual for the duration, will we find a large number of retirements. That is not the way to do it. How does he propose that we do it?
Lord True (Con)
My Lords, I cannot follow the noble Baroness on many of the things that she has said, other than I hope that one day we might get back to not being a virtual House—that I do agree with. I repeat that there are difficulties in relation to this House: it is unelected, Members sit for life and the House cannot be dissolved. That raises issues for reflection on a cap, as the previous Prime Minister implied.
The Earl of Shrewsbury (Con)
My Lords, as an excepted hereditary Peer, I am obviously fair game. However, does my noble friend not agree that one way to reduce the size of this House is to ask the Liberal Democrat Benches to reduce their number to one which is proportionate to their share of the national vote?
Lord True (Con)
My noble friend is spot on on that one, and I hear assent in many parts of the House—perhaps not all. That used to be that party’s policy, and perhaps it would be good if it returned to it.
The Senior Deputy Speaker (Lord McFall of Alcluith)
My Lords, all supplementary questions have been asked and we now move to the next Question.
Parliamentary Constituencies Bill
Lord True ExcerptsTuesday 15th September 2020
(3 years, 7 months ago)
Grand CommitteeRead Full debate Parliamentary Constituencies Act 2020 View all Parliamentary Constituencies Act 2020 Debates Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts Amendment Paper: HL Bill 126-III Third marshalled list for Grand Committee - (10 Sep 2020)
The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Lord True) (Con)
My Lords, I am extremely grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken. I am not sure that I will tell my honourable friend Mr Bone about the support he has from the Liberal Democrats—I am very solicitous for his health, of course. The noble Lord, Lord Rennard, made a powerful and interesting speech, which I listened to carefully, as I have tried to to all speeches in your Lordships’ Committee.
A false dichotomy underlies part of our discussion last week, between an attitude posited—even called a sort of arithmetical obsession by one Member of the Committee, who avows his authorship—and the idea of fluidity and connection with local places and local ties. It is said that these two things are antithetical; they cannot run together. Of course, there is a balance in these matters. I believe, and I hope to persuade the Committee, because the Government cannot accept the amendments spoken to today, that a good and fair balance is struck by a tolerance of 5%.
There has been a difference of opinion. The noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, and the noble Lords, Lord Lennie and Lord Grocott, proposed a tolerance range of 15%, plus or minus 7.5%. The noble Lord, Lord Tyler, backed up ably by the noble Lord, Lord Rennard, proposed plus or minus 8%, together with headroom to move to 20%—plus or minus 10%—where deemed necessary. The noble Lords, Lord Lipsey and Lord Foulkes, went further, suggesting 20%—plus or minus 10%—in all instances. Amendment 22 in the next group even envisages a 30% range in some circumstances. A variety of opinion has been put before the Committee, before referring to the amendment in the name of my noble friend Lord Forsyth of Drumlean, who went in the other direction by suggesting a tolerance range of 5%.
I also thank other noble Lords who spoke, my noble friends Lord Blencathra and Lord Hayward. My noble friend Lord Blencathra nodded to the amendment from my noble friend Lord Forsyth and came down on balance, I think, in favour of 5%, as did my noble friend Lord Hayward. His expertise, detailed knowledge and experience of this subject—matched, as we heard today by other Members of the Committee—are of great benefit. I was struck by what he said about splitting wards and noted also what the noble Lord, Lord Rennard, said on this subject.
My noble friend Lord Blencathra gave us a dose of practical political reality in his powerful speech. There will be disputes. The noble Lord, Lord Lipsey, was very solicitous for the future of the Conservative Party, which was kind of him, but wherever one strikes this, there will be disruption—the word used by the noble Lord, Lord Tyler—but the Government believe that the current position, set out in existing legislation, is the right one; namely, a tolerance range of 10%, to allow the Boundary Commissions to propose constituencies 5% larger or smaller than the quota.
The Government are resolute in their goal of delivering equal constituencies so far as possible. We committed to do so in our 2019 manifesto and the elected House has upheld that position. With our having made that pledge, I hope noble Lords will recognise that this House should not wind back the current reasonable and achievable tolerance range of 10%.
Of course, I understand the views expressed in this Committee about communities being kept together within single constituencies and about particular geographies being respected. They are powerful sentiments and were eloquently expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Shutt, but the concept of equal votes—the simple idea that each elector’s vote must count as nearly as possible the same—is equally, if not arguably more, powerful. It is the cornerstone of our democracy and fundamental to maintaining voters’ participation and trust.
The only tool we have by which to ensure such an approach is to apply the electoral quota on a universal basis while allowing appropriate flexibility to the Boundary Commissions to take into account important local factors such as geographical features and community ties without introducing significant variability. That will remain the position. Previously, Parliament has debated tolerance and judged that a range of 10% is right and will allow this. The Government believe that we should hold to that position. It strikes the right balance between achieving equal, fair boundaries and allowing the Boundary Commissions flexibility to take account of other factors.
If we let out the seams of tolerance, as it was put in debate, the results are quick and clear, as my noble friend Lord Blencathra illustrated. Using the electoral figures from 2019, with a 15% range, one could range from 78,000 electors to almost 11,000 fewer. At 20%, one would be looking at a potential disparity of 20,000-plus electors, with some constituencies of around 62,000 and others approaching 83,500. I agree with my noble friends Lord Hayward, Lord Blencathra and Lord Forsyth: there is no legitimate argument for having constituencies with sizes varying by potentially 11,000 or 20,000 electors, depending on the amendment in question in this group. That is not equitable.
At 20%, the latitude provided to the Boundary Commissions is so significant that more than 80% of constituencies could be untouched by the next boundary review. Some—and it has been argued for in this Committee—may think that a good outcome, but I urge that we recall that the purpose of a boundary review is to update constituencies to take account of how the population has changed. The current parliamentary constituencies, which no one defends, are based on the electorate as it was in the early 2000s, nearly 20 years ago. We all know that there have been significant shifts since then, in migration, in housebuilding and in population growth.
Let me touch on the idea put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Tyler—followed up by the noble Lord, Lord Rennard, with some interesting historical references —of giving the Boundary Commissions discretion to apply a greater tolerance in certain instances where they judge it to be needed. The noble Lord, Lord Tyler, suggested a basic tolerance range of 16%, but with flexibility to move to 20%. Similar ideas were put forward in the other place. On the face of it, such discretion may seem attractive, and the noble Lord, Lord Rennard, made a good fist of it, but, in reality, it can make the job of the Boundary Commissions more difficult and the outcome of boundary reviews considerably less certain.
It is not difficult to envisage that the Boundary Commissions would quickly come under pressure to use the discretion allowed by this amendment. When a commission used that discretion in one part of its territory, it is highly likely that communities in another part would call for something similar. The same phenomenon would be likely to occur across the four nations of the union. For example, were the Boundary Commission for Scotland to be quicker to propose constituencies with a larger variance range, it would surely not take long for a similar approach to be demanded of the Boundary Commission for England or for Northern Ireland.
The noble Lord, Lord Grocott, mentioned protected constituencies. We have discussed this concept and will do so again on a later group of amendments. I thank him for acknowledging that there is a small number of specific instances where exceptions might be sensible. We will discuss that later but, again, the Government’s feeling is that we have struck the right balance.
One reason why the Boundary Commissions are as effective and respected as they are is that they implement rules that are clear and unambiguous—the importance of clarity of rules was referred to also by the noble Lord, Lord Rennard. While they act with clarity and transparency and steer clear of subjective judgments and rankings, the scope for disagreement and challenge—yes, it will be there—will be limited. The Government are keen to protect that position.
Our task is to update the UK’s parliamentary constituencies and to ensure that our electors have votes that are fairer and more equal. That task is urgent. As Professor McLean said of Parliament when giving evidence to the Public Bill Committee,
“it is … very embarrassing that it is operating on the basis of 20-year-old boundaries and therefore we did not have equal suffrage in the 2019 general election”.—[Official Report, Commons, Parliamentary Constituencies Bill Committee, 23/6/20; col. 94.]
I should at this point add my own comments of respect and appreciation for the late Professor Ron Johnston and endorse what many others have said in this Committee.
I urge the Committee to recognise that the tolerance level agreed in previous legislation and reaffirmed by the elected House on this Bill is right and reasonable. Changes to it have been rejected on numerous occasions in the elected Chamber, to which it relates. I ask noble Lords to resist the desire to fix something that the Government contend is not broken and not to press these amendments.
The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Pitkeathley) (Lab)
My Lords, I have received no request to speak after the Minister, so I call the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter of Kentish Town.
The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Duncan of Springbank) (Con)
I do not believe that we have been able to recover the noble Baroness, Lady Jolly, so on that basis, I call the Minister.
Lord True (Con)
My Lords, perhaps I should open by congratulating the son of the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, on his great achievement in the channel. I think many noble Lords know that I am descended from generations of fisherfolk, and genetically the greatest horror I can imagine is finding myself swimming in the open sea, miles from land. I congratulate the team on their extraordinary achievement.
Moving on to the serious business of the amendments, I strongly disagree with the repeated tenor of the remarks made in your Lordships’ Committee that the proposal for a Boundary Commission with permission to have a plus or minus 5%—that is, 10%—tolerance in the size of seats sweeps away, as someone put it, all local ties. I say with respect that that is exaggerated talk. In discussion of the Bill, my noble friend Lord Hayward and I have made no secret of the fact that we believe that having broadly equally sized constituencies is pre-eminent, but there remains an allowance for recognising local ties and geography and so on, and it is to caricature the nature of the Bill or the Government’s objectives to say that it will sweep away local ties.
Without being in any way critical, because I know it is a long-held aspiration of many in your Lordships’ House, I can say only that as we have listened to the debates over the past three days some of these very arguments about local ties have come from people who for many years have argued for massive, multi-member constituencies in the name of proportional representation. There are difficulties in arguing on the one hand that small local ties are important, as I would argue and the Government recognise, while on the other saying that all these constituencies should be swept away and rolled together. I respect everything that everybody says in your Lordships’ Committee, but I note with interest that outside this Committee many of the self-same people have spent many years calling for massive multi-member constituencies.
We have talked on many occasions about tolerance. It is an important issue. There must be some degree of tolerance. There is disagreement in your Lordships’ Committee about what that might be, and that is reflected in the amendments before us. I will come on specifically to the points on Wales, which we have already discussed in this Committee, but it is an extremely important issue. It is not true to say that this Government do not respect Wales or that they are playing fast and loose with the union. Political comment and knockabout are fair enough, but this Government are passionately attached to the concept of our great union and all of us who speak about it should not feed the impression that we think otherwise. I will come back in detail to those points.
Starting with Amendment 18 and the idea that the Boundary Commission should have the ability to ignore the tolerance range wherever, in its opinion, local ties demand a more flexible approach, here the same arguments that we made during our previous discussion of the benefits of limiting the discretion of the Boundary Commission apply. Like many of us, I sympathise with what the noble Lord, Lord Wallace of Saltaire, said. He knows very well that if he tugs at the issue of local government, he certainly tugs at my heartstrings, which perhaps shows what a sad individual I am, but he is absolutely right about the importance of local government. Many of us here in your Lordships’ Committee will have had the privilege of serving either a constituency in Parliament or a local authority ward and, whether we have or not, we have all come from a local community. Several of us, including the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, and I, have recognised that somewhere that we represented in our titles. Like every citizen, we feel strongly about those places and about what defines them: their geography, community and particular cultures, as my noble friend Lord Hayward said. I am a historian by training and vocation, and I could never be blind to those issues. These are our local ties; they are important and our experience is rich with them.
However, this amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, would place an obligation on the Boundary Commission to judge the respective merits of different local ties and to reward those deemed particularly strong with special treatment by relaxing the rules, but what of the neighbouring constituency where no special treatment applies? Perhaps in the neighbour’s case, the community might fit neatly into the constituency proposed and all within it will be content, but that will not always be the case. It is inevitable that some local communities where ordinary tolerance rules will apply will feel that if only the Boundary Commission understood their character fully, they too could have a different, more appropriate and more generously drawn constituency.
These are the essential ingredients of dispute and challenge, the kind of process that my noble friend Lord Blencathra described for us and that the noble Lord, Lord Rennard, drew our attention to in talking of the importance of clarity. They bring a potential to undermine in some ways, and certainly make more difficult, the work of the Boundary Commissions. I repeat that the Bill allows respect for local ties and the Government believe that what is in it is sufficient and the Boundary Commission will respect that.
Amendment 22 seeks to allow the Boundary Commission for Wales to use a tolerance range of 30%—plus or minus 15%. As was powerfully argued by the noble Lords, Lord Hain and Lord Wigley, and the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay of Llandaff, the intention is to provide more flexibility to the Boundary Commission for Wales in how it responds to the particular geography of Wales, which in parts is rural and sparsely populated. I do not accept that Wales has been treated, to repeat a phrase that was used, punitively. My noble friend Lord Hayward addressed this point. I and the Government do not believe that equal representation in our Parliament is punitive; it is equal representation, which should apply across England, Wales and Scotland. We all have an equal stake in our union and should be equally represented. Wales, of course, has the great benefit, which England does not, of having its Senedd.
I cannot accept the amendment. As with the other amendments we have discussed, we cannot accept an amendment that will allow a greater degree of variation in the size of considerable numbers of constituencies, in this case only in Wales. We cannot prejudge how the Boundary Commission for Wales might apply this proposed tolerance range, but the result could be that, as was pointed out today, more urban constituencies—for example in Cardiff or Swansea—would have considerably more electors than more rural, less populated constituencies. That variability in electorate size means one thing: voting of differing strengths for the people of different parts of Wales and the people in different parts of the union. Therefore we cannot accept the amendment before the Committee.
I turn to the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, and supported by my noble friend Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth. “Shall Trelawney die?”—in my day at school we used to sing these good old songs. I am fully aware of the passion—the word has been used by others—that is rightly held for the history and spirit of Cornwall and Devon. The noble Lord’s amendment looking at Devon and Cornwall seeks to erect inviolable borders around each of those two counties. I am sure this will find great favour in parts of the south-west. In effect, the amendment treats Devon and Cornwall separately, with their own allocation of constituencies, just like the nations of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. Once the allocation for Devon and for Cornwall had been set, presumably using the same method as for the four nations—consequential amendments would be needed to establish this, but I will not go into the technicalities of amendments as we are arguing the issue—it would be for the Boundary Commission for England to propose the boundaries of those constituencies within the boundaries of Devon and Cornwall.
Lord Hain (Lab) [V]
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his moderate and reasoned response. However, I appeal to him again to look at Amendment 22. By the way, I have never favoured multi-member PR seats; I have always been in favour of the single member alternative vote system, which is fairer. I urge him to listen and read again the excellent contribution from the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, and her point about fuelling separatist nationalism. We had a Secretary of State for Wales in the 1990s called John Redwood; he was a perfectly nice man personally but he behaved in an arrogant fashion. A lot of people in Wales, despite the moderation the Minister showed in his response, will see this as a punitive measure because Wales has been hit harder than anybody else.
We are not asking for the moon in Amendment 22. It is a moderate, constructive amendment. I and those who have backed it are not seeking to overturn this legislation, whatever our feelings about it or the motivation for it. We are asking the Government to give this to the Boundary Commission for Wales because of the unique circumstances of Wales which have historically always been recognised by Parliament. This is making a break with tradition and history, and the Minister should explain why the universal principle of equalisation, which has applied over the changes in boundary reviews for a long time, has been put on a rigid, straitjacketed altar that affects Wales so uniquely and badly.
There should be a 15% variation for Wales as opposed to 5%. Yes, there will be knock-on implications for England, but it has hundreds of seats—more than 500—whereas Wales has 40, so it will be a bit of impact for everybody as opposed to a massive impact for a few in Wales. I urge the Minister to reconsider this. Otherwise, his Government will reap a bitter harvest in Wales, as happened in 1997 when they lost every single MP because they were perceived as behaving in an arrogant way towards Wales. I do not accuse him of that personally, but I appeal to him to look again before Report at this moderate, constructive amendment proposing a 15% variation as opposed to a much more rigid 5% and see whether he can support it.
Lord True (Con)
My Lords, I cannot give the noble Lord enormous hope of a volte-face in the Government’s position. I can say to him and to all members of the Committee on this and other issues that I will read what has been said extremely carefully. It is my duty as a Minister to listen to what colleagues and other noble Lords say here and to reflect on it.
The Government’s position is that of course we want Wales, as all other parts of the United Kingdom, to be well represented. A sense of contact with democracy, which others have referred to in this Committee, is vital. Wales is fortunate in that it has a wonderful, solid tradition of local government out of which some of the greatest politicians in the history of our country have emerged. It has that system of local government and the Senedd with legislative powers over a range of policy areas. It has a strong voice in Westminster, including through the Welsh Affairs Committee, the Welsh Grand Committee and voices on the Benches of this House—we have heard them today—who persuasively make the case for Wales every day.
The Bill does not seek to change any of Wales’s democratic traditions—as if one ever could; we would never wish to do that. It would simply make sure that for UK general elections, wherever a vote is cast across the Union, it will carry the same power in helping to decide who governs our country. That is our position and the one I put to the Committee. Of course, I was not suggesting in any way that the noble Lord, Lord Hain, was guilty of arguing for multi-member constituencies outside this Committee and for micro-activity inside. I think he perhaps knows who I had in mind. I will, of course, reflect and carefully read the wise and heavy words of all those who have spoken. I have no doubt from what I have heard in this Committee that we may well be hearing further discussion of this later in the Bill and on the Floor of the House, where, I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, many of us would like to be.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)
My Lords, I am grateful to members of the Committee for supporting my Amendment 18, particularly the noble Lord, Lord Wallace of Saltaire, who stressed the constituency link. It reminded me that when I was in a radical mood, as I was when I was a bit younger, I used to say: “Why do we use this term ‘the honourable Member for Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley’? It is very old fashioned”. Someone reminded me that it is a very clear way of reminding people that you represent a constituency. You are not there as George Foulkes, you are there as the honourable member for Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley—that is very important. They do not do the same in the Scottish Parliament; they use individual names, as the Chairman—I nearly called you Ian—knows. In fact, Alex Salmond used to call me Lord Foulkes, using “Lord” as a term of abuse —look what happened to him. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Wallace of Saltaire, for his support and for reminding me of that.
I am even more grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Hayward, for pointing out exactly what I was trying to say earlier, that “shall” refers to the arithmetic consideration and “may” to the local links. I wanted to turn it the other way around and I am grateful to him for pointing that out.
My noble friend Lord Hain made a very powerful argument on behalf of Wales. I am almost Welsh—I was born in Oswestry. I remember at Gobowen station an announcement that the steam train would go to Llanymynech and Pant. I thought it would breathe heavily at Pant, but Pant, of course, is a town in Wales, as members of the Committee will know, so I know Wales very well. However, I say to my noble friend Lord Hain: “Don’t make the case for Wales at the expense of the case for Scotland”. I was disappointed that he did that.
I remind him that the largest constituency set out by the Boundary Commission for Scotland was Highland North, which is 65% of the size of the whole of Wales. Scotland represents one-third of the land area of the United Kingdom—sparsity, size and difficulty of getting around apply a fortiori to Scotland more than even to Yorkshire, with no disrespect to the noble Lord, Lord Shutt of Greetland, on my left, and to Wales. Please do not give the Government the opportunity to divide and rule. The case for Scotland is strong; the case for Wales is strong as well.
Finally, I have got to know the Minister a lot better as time goes on and he is a very polite and kind man, but he did say that if conflicts arose between one area and another with people arguing for one constituency, then another might lose out as a result. That is precisely what the Boundary Commission is there to sort out. It has to make these judgments in relation to the representations that it receives. I therefore do not accept his explanation—despite the nice way in which he put it. We will no doubt return to this general and particular issue on Report. In the meantime, I beg leave to withdrawn the amendment.