Lord True debates involving the Cabinet Office during the 2019 Parliament

Wed 30th Dec 2020
European Union (Future Relationship) Bill
Lords Chamber

3rd reading & 2nd reading (Hansard) & Committee negatived (Hansard) & 3rd reading (Hansard) & 2nd reading (Hansard) & 2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords & 3rd reading (Hansard) & 3rd reading (Hansard): House of Lords & Committee negatived (Hansard) & Committee negatived (Hansard): House of Lords & 2nd reading & Committee negatived
Mon 14th Dec 2020
United Kingdom Internal Market Bill
Lords Chamber

Consideration of Commons amendmentsPing Pong (Hansard) & Consideration of Commons amendments

European Union (Future Relationship) Bill

Lord True Excerpts
3rd reading & 2nd reading & Committee negatived & 2nd reading (Hansard) & 2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords & 3rd reading (Hansard) & 3rd reading (Hansard): House of Lords & Committee negatived (Hansard) & Committee negatived (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 30th December 2020

(3 years, 3 months ago)

Lords Chamber
Read Full debate European Union (Future Relationship) Act 2020 View all European Union (Future Relationship) Act 2020 Debates Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts Amendment Paper: Committee of the whole House Amendments as at 30 December 2020 - (30 Dec 2020)
Lord True Portrait The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Lord True) (Con)
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My Lords, when you have been sitting for seven hours in the same place, you begin to learn how old you are. I thank the noble Lord opposite for his kind remarks at the start and I appreciate his engagement. I also appreciated the preamble to his speech about looking to the future. Unfortunately, most of the rest of his speech seemed a lament that we still do not have more Europe than the public have voted for. As for the Liberal Democrats, I must say that, at a time of national gloom, their unremitting pessimism throughout the debate represents a clear and present danger to the national weal.

In opening, I declare my interest, as ever, as a long-term resident of Italy. As a European, I affirm the abiding genius of the diverse nations and cultures of Europe, inside the EU and out: Proust and Dostoevsky, Goethe and Ibsen, Dante and Shakespeare—all part of a glorious common European culture that we must cherish and never allow, in this age of political correctness, to be washed out of our minds. There was good news this morning, and we celebrate the achievements and genius of scientists born in Hungary, Britain and Germany —again, part of our great European scientific tradition.

I agree with those who say that we will always be European, but the genius of Europe and the United Kingdom did not spring from any international institution. However sad some are at leaving that institution—we heard a lot about it today—will that genius be dimmed after we leave the EU? I believe a great future lies before this country, as some noble Lords who spoke today told us with confidence and pride.

I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in the debate today—125 of them. I counted them all in and counted them all out with, I regret, the exception of the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, to whom I apologise. It is quite difficult to bolt down a plate of fish and chips in 10 minutes, but I am sorry I missed his speech. There were exceptions. The noble Lord, Lord Hannay of Chiswick, was scarcely rapturous in his reaction, but I welcomed the overall tone set at the start by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge. The noble Lord, Lord Butler of Brockwell, the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, and many other noble Lords said, as did the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, at the end, that it was time to move on. Many of those who had set themselves against Brexit recognised that but, none the less, there was clear opposition and anger from the Liberal Democrat Benches and a deep undertone of hostility from Labour.

As we close the book on our membership of the EU, 57 years after de Gaulle’s first veto—which I remember watching on black and white television—we can truly say that this was a historic debate. I know that more wish to have taken part, to have spoken for longer or to have had more time to scrutinise the agreement. I recognise that abiding theme of the debate. On a night like this, the House should have been full and the air ringing with challenge and counterchallenge, with conflict across the House, which forges common parliamentary wisdom. We all long for that day to return.

That the Lords of Magna Carta look down on a House so empty is not the Government’s choice, nor is the timing of this debate and Bill on the day before the end of the transition. It was not the United Kingdom’s choice that the negotiations ran so long and late, but who is to say that my right honourable friend the Prime Minister was wrong to go so long and aim so high, when the prize is so great: a historic Canada-style deal with the EU, worth over £650 billion to the United Kingdom, containing zero tariffs and quotas—the first such trade deal that the EU has ever entered into with an independent country?

I pay tribute to my noble friend Lord Frost and his team for their brilliance in the negotiation. As almost all said—with the notable exception of the noble Lord, Lord Kerr of Kinlochard—they were outstanding in ways that many said were impossible. They broke through barriers in the talks with a sonic boom that scattered the naysayers and doubters. There are some, including the Front Bench opposite, who say that it was not necessary to act today. We could have dithered and dallied; we could have acted provisionally. “Never now” and “not yet”, they say, but who is to say that my right honourable friend the Prime Minister was wrong to act so decisively, when the prize that he has won is ending the transition period with a deal implementing our future relationship, providing that much-needed certainty to citizens and businesses across the United Kingdom, for which your Lordships have rightly asked for so long? The deal agreed with the EU means that we have achieved what the British people twice demanded.

This deal is based on friendly co-operation between sovereign equals, centred on free trade and shared values: a new partnership that builds on our common bonds of friendship and co-operation—but, as I say, as sovereign equals, with a clear, independent voice for Britain to speak and act in the world on the things that matter to us. I say to my noble friend Lady McIntosh that we are not entering a deal to terminate it; termination clauses are standard in trade agreements. The Bill ensures that our goods and services can continue to flow to the European Union, but also that our businesses can prosper mightily outside the EU by enabling them to trade freely, widely and ever more widely across the world and in the fastest-growing corners of the world.

Many questions have quite properly been raised in the debate. As your Lordships’ Constitution Committee has said, the pace of passage will no doubt call for considerable ongoing scrutiny—as, frankly, what EU treaty ever signed might not have? The Government will co-operate with that and we are carefully considering what scrutiny processes should be put in place to assist it. I give an assurance to the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, that the Government will work with his committee. I share the tribute paid by the Leader of the House to the work of the noble Earl and the European committees of this House.

The noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, said that it was not necessary to act. But the UK and the EU need to exchange notification of completion of procedures for provisional application early on 31 December. This exchange cannot be done until the Bill has received Royal Assent, as the passing of legislation is a necessary procedure for provisional application.

I was asked about security. The EU was never ready to allow us access to SIS II. That was not a matter of ECJ jurisdiction. However, as the noble Lord, Lord Hogan-Howe, reminded us, we have reached a far-reaching agreement to protect the British public in areas including evidence, extradition and the sharing of passenger and criminal records data. Control of our borders will enhance our security, allowing the UK to remain safe and secure. The Bill gives us the tools to achieve this.

I was asked about Northern Ireland. I acknowledge that the terms of the Northern Ireland protocol mean that the position of Northern Ireland is not as the rest of our kingdom. But we will guarantee unfettered access for Northern Ireland goods. This deal means that there will be no tariffs on UK goods destined for Northern Ireland. Ulster and its businesses will be able to benefit from the free trade deals that we strike across the world, and the long-term future of the protocol rests on the democratic consent of the people of Northern Ireland.

I was asked about impact assessments. The Government’s number one priority must be to pass this implementing legislation before the end of the transition period, to ensure certainty and clarity for businesses and citizens alike. Of course the Government recognise the value of conducting impact assessments in normal circumstances but, in light of the tight turnaround time to introduce and pass the Bill following the agreement on Christmas Eve, we did not consider it feasible to produce an impact assessment this week in advance of the Bill being introduced. The Government will of course continue to produce impact assessments for relevant future secondary legislation in the usual way.

I was asked about financial services. This agreement provides a stable foundation for us to develop our future relationship with the EU and facilitate new arrangements to promote international financial services trade. In addition to the trade negotiations, both sides are carrying out equivalence assessments. Equivalence is an autonomous mechanism by which one jurisdiction can recognise relevant standards in another.

Leaving the EU means that the Government now have full control over the UK’s legal and regulatory regime and, as my noble friend Lord Trenchard noted, it can make the best decisions about what is right for the United Kingdom and for one of its most productive and innovative sectors. We have agreed a joint declaration on regulatory co-operation that sets out our intention to address shared challenges by discussion, information exchange and wider co-operation.

I was asked about Gibraltar and the overseas territories. Although an agreement has not yet been reached on Gibraltar’s future relationship with the EU in line with the conclusion of the UK-EU deal, we are fully committed to continuing to work together with the Governments of Gibraltar and Spain to reach a political agreement as soon as practicable. Continuing to work together with Spain and the EU to mitigate the effects of the end of the transition period on Gibraltar and ensure the well-being and prosperity of people in the region is an absolute priority for the Government. This includes ensuring border fluidity, which is in all parties’ best interests. The UK has always been, and will remain, steadfast in our support for Gibraltar.

I was asked about data adequacy. The UK will regain full autonomy over its data protection rules from 1 January. Regrettably, the EU left too little time to ratify data adequacy decisions by the end of the year. We have therefore agreed a bridging mechanism for no more than six months. It will allow personal data to flow as it does now while EU adequacy decisions are adopted. We are confident of the outcome and do not expect the bridging mechanism to be in place for more than four months.

I was asked about Erasmus. I recognise the attachment of many to this programme, and I can confirm that we will stay in EU programmes such as Horizon Europe and Copernicus. But we consistently said that we would join Erasmus only if it was in line with UK interests and if we could agree fair terms for participation. Ultimately, the EU could not meet those objectives, and we do not consider participation to be in the interests of the United Kingdom. As has been announced, we will therefore proceed with our own UK-wide programme. This will be a scheme that is global in outlook—not limited to the EU—and focuses on UK priorities, such as supporting social mobility. The Turing scheme will be backed by over £100 million, providing funding for around 35,000 students in universities, colleges and schools to go on placements and exchanges overseas, starting in September 2021. Under the withdrawal agreement, the UK will continue to participate fully in the current Erasmus+ and European Solidarity Corps programmes.

I was asked about fishing. As a descendant of fisher folk, I share the attachment of so many to this harsh and often heroic calling. The deal that we have, backed by £100 million of investment to rebuild our industry, might not be as swift as some would wish, although it is much swifter than the EU wanted, but it points the way to growth after years of foreign control and ends the injustice of the CFP. From day one, the UK will again be an independent coastal state and manager of our own waters.

I was asked about the so-called level playing field. There is no dynamic alignment, no role for the ECJ and no block on our divergence from the acquis, although we freely aim for the highest standards on the environment and in the workplace. I, for one, look forward to an end to the cruel export of live animals, which has been protected by Brussels for far too long.

I was asked about the devolved institutions. The UK Government respect the devolution settlements and we are committed to working with the devolved Administrations on implementation of the agreements. I must report that we were disappointed to hear today that the Scottish Parliament voted against granting legislative consent and that the Northern Ireland Assembly carried a Motion amendment that called, among other things, for the Assembly to decline legislative consent. The Welsh Parliament today voted to note the introduction of the Bill, regretting that it is not in a position to determine legislative consent. We regret the results of those votes. However, the timing is challenging and the Bill must proceed so that the UK can meet its international obligations to implement the agreements by 31 December and ensure that all parts of the UK can benefit from their excellent terms.

I was asked about musicians. The UK pushed for a more ambitious agreement with the European Union on the temporary movement of business travellers that would have covered musicians and others, but our proposals were rejected by the European Union. However, I have obviously heard the remarks made by many noble Lords in the debate.

We will have a further full debate next Friday, when I understand that the House of Commons will be somewhere else, to engage again with these and other detailed questions. I have no doubts that there will be many other occasions. I will welcome that scrutiny, as I know my ministerial colleagues will. But I plead with your Lordships in your wisdom not to impede the Bill, which will answer the expectations of the majority of our countrymen and countrywomen, as is our duty.

I was surprised to read in the name of the Official Opposition not the simple word “yes” that the British people voted for in last December’s election, but 151 words of mudge and fudge, grumble and mumble. The noble Baroness opposite, as always, spoke with great grace and from a personal position that I deeply respect and understand, but I am afraid that her Motion is not one of a party that sees opportunity for our country. How ironic it is that a European debate that began in 1975 with a referendum aimed to paper over the cracks in a disunited Labour Party should end with this rambling Motion from a disunited Labour Party that is fearful of the future, lacking, as the noble Lord, Lord Howarth of Newport, said, any confidence in the genius of the British people. You cannot lead a nation forward if you have no faith in the path it has chosen.

We are told that this is a “thin” deal at 1,250 pages —too heavy for me to lift up. The Labour Motion condemns bureaucracy and regulation. How many more pages of the bureaucracy and regulation that this Bill enables us to escape form would we need before a deal would be thick enough for the Labour Party? A thicker deal must logically be a closer deal; a thicker deal means more institutional ties, not fewer. Are we to hear a promise next election from Sir Keir Starmer, as some have called for today, to renegotiate us back closer to Brussels? “Get Brexit undone”: is this to be the Labour cry?

Lord True Portrait Lord True (Con)
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The noble Lord, Lord Adonis, is ready to lead the charge. He has always been honest on that. I do not normally give advice to my opponents, but I do not think that that particular trumpet call will bring the blue wall tumbling down in some new miracle of Jericho.

I think that the Labour Party finds itself in a strange position, going one way in a couple of minutes to divide against the deal on Second Reading and then sidling the other way a few minutes later to vote for it on Third Reading. They become more like the Liberal Democrats every day, except that my Liberal Democrat friends have always remained honourably committed to their eccentric belief that Britain’s destiny is as a province of a European super state—although having heard the noble Lord, Lord Newby, say that he will vote for no deal later tonight, I confess I remain a little confused.

I agree with those who say that we should close the book, not keep it open as some noble Lords have said today, on 47 tempestuous years in which the European question bedevilled British politics and confined our horizons—years in which the common market those of us who voted for in 1975 thought we were joining morphed into an ever more constricting would-be single state without the British people ever being asked to give their assent. The British people never agreed to that and when asked in 2016 and in 2019 they said “no”.

The noble Lord, Lord Austin of Dudley, in a remarkable maiden speech—how much I look forward to hearing more from him—recalled something that all too many who have spoken in a negative tone today still seem to have forgotten. Many people—17.4 million and more—brought us to this place tonight. In reclaiming our borders, our laws and our destiny, the true movers are the common man and woman—the extraordinary people of these islands. They were told that they must not break with the EU, but they determined, “Yes, we must.” They were told in Project Fear that they could not break with the EU, that house prices would crash, pensions would be slashed and jobs destroyed. But in that quiet, British way, with 17.4 million pieces of paper pushed purposefully into ballot boxes in village, church and school halls across the land, they said, “Yes, we could.” They were even told after they had voted that in fact they had not known what they were doing, they had not understood what they were doing, and even—the memory of this should shame us all—that they were too stupid to understand. But last December they said again, firmly, “Yes, we had.” I ask your Lordships not to doubt or divide against that firmly expressed wish tonight.

I will not list all those who worked for this outcome, as it is time to draw to a close, but they were not always so many in your Lordships’ House. One of them was my noble friend Lord Cavendish of Furness, whose valedictory speech, so typical in its classical clarity and humanity, we sadly heard tonight. Who will ever forget, however, the rolling of so many eyes, the shaking of heads, the audible sniggers and groans when a few in this House ventured to speak over the last four years of the will of the people? Now let the people’s will finally be done. In saying that, I pay particular tribute to my noble friend Lord Callanan, who led so much enabling legislation through this House, for all he bore and forbore.

But above all, the credit for vindicating the will of the people goes to the grit, guile and negotiating skill of one who has so often been unfairly vilified in this House, and who was vilified again tonight—the Prime Minister, my right honourable friend, right on this great issue of our time, honourable in keeping his promise to get Brexit done, and those of us on this side are proud to call him our friend. With tens of millions of our fellow citizens, we say, “Thank you, Boris. You done good.”

The nature of any compromise is that not everyone gets what they wish for. We have heard this from both sides of the debate. My right honourable friend stuck at it, but he also compromised, and I too pay tribute to the President of the European Commission, Ursula von der Leyen, who played a distinguished role in writing the final chapter of the skilled and dedicated Mr Barnier’s seemingly never-ending roman fleuve. This outcome is good for the UK and it is good for Europe, so let this agreement end the jabbing and parrying that have gone on for too long in Parliament and outside. Let us vote now. I urge all noble Lords to vote positively for the future, for a vote against this Bill, as the Liberal Democrats propose, is a vote for no-deal and for nihilism. A vote for the Labour Motion is a vote to prolong uncertainty—a vote for doubt over hope.

Every lesson of history is that freedom and free trade are the greatest engines of human happiness and prosperity. To turn our backs on the opportunity in the wider world before us would be an act of folly. To embrace it will redeem your Lordships and bring prizes yet untold. This is a Bill for freedom and free trade, for opportunity and control of our country’s own great destiny. Those are ideals which should appeal across all parties and unite all of us, after all the old divides. I have no hesitation in commending it, and commending the future, to this House.

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Moved by
Lord True Portrait Lord True
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That the Bill do now pass.

Lord True Portrait Lord True (Con)
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My Lords, many words have been said. It is agreed on all sides, I think, that this should not be the occasion for a renewed debate. I know that the noble Lord, Lord Newby, wishes to press a Division against the passage of the Bill, so the only thing I want to say is to join noble Lords in thanking and paying tribute to the staff and clerks of the House and all those who have made it possible for us to return and have this Sitting.

It may seem odd to do so when a Bill has been with us for such a short time but I must thank the Bill team because, in fact, this Bill has been tracking the negotiations for a long time and people have been engaged in the very difficult task of getting a Bill together in a short time. They deserve our thanks.

With those short thanks, I beg to move.

Amendment to the Motion

Moved by

Future Relationship with the EU

Lord True Excerpts
Monday 14th December 2020

(3 years, 3 months ago)

Lords Chamber
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Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town Portrait Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)
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I would like to ask the Minister what progress there has been since that Statement was made on Thursday.

Lord True Portrait The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Lord True) (Con)
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My Lords, discussions are continuing as we are enjoying our session here.

Baroness Ludford Portrait Baroness Ludford (LD) [V]
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That was rather a short answer. My Lords, Tobias Ellwood MP, the Conservative chairman of the Defence Committee, has warned that no deal will imperil Tory prospects at the next general election. Maybe that, if not the will of the country, will motivate the Prime Minister. My own priorities include security. When asked about access to EU databases, the Paymaster-General told the other place:

“We will be gaining access to new information via safety and security declarations.”—[Official Report, Commons, 10/12/20; col. 997.]


I think that is a reference to movement of goods. Can the Minister tell me what on earth those declarations have to do with cross-border policing?

Lord True Portrait Lord True (Con)
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I must tell the noble Baroness that negotiations are continuing. As I have said to the House, we are confident that good security co-operation between the United Kingdom and our friends in the European Union will continue, whatever the outcome.

Lord McLoughlin Portrait Lord McLoughlin (Con)
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My Lords, the Government say in the Statement that they

“are working tirelessly to get a deal.”

I welcome that, but at what point will people know whether there will be a deal or not? As you see when driving down the motorways, and in other government advertisements, people and companies are told to get ready for 31 December. What are they getting ready for?

Lord True Portrait Lord True (Con)
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The reality is that, whatever happens in these negotiations, there will be change on 31 December to 1 January. As enacted in law, the United Kingdom will leave the European Union single market and customs territory. For that reason, new customs and border arrangements will come into place. All businesses and citizens should be aware of that and make preparations for it.

Duke of Wellington Portrait The Duke of Wellington (CB) [V]
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My Lords, I declare my European and agricultural interests as detailed in the register. I am sure all Members of this House wish the Government well in their negotiations at this very difficult moment. Surely, whatever their party or interest, no Member of this House would have wished to see the country in the position we find ourselves in—only 17 days before the end of the transition period. Does the Minister agree that it will be absolutely necessary to negotiate a period of adjustment or implementation so that, whatever the outcome, the changes do not all come into effect on the first day?

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Lord True Portrait Lord True (Con)
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We already have a range of agreements with the European Union over, for example, the Northern Ireland protocol, where arrangements and derogations are agreed. We have other arrangements—for example, we have already announced the phased introduction of border controls. However, the transition period will end on December 31 and that remains the position.

Lord McNicol of West Kilbride Portrait The Deputy Speaker (Lord McNicol of West Kilbride) (Lab)
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I call the next speaker, the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Southwark. Bishop? We will move on to the next speaker and come back. I call the noble Baroness, Lady Symons of Vernham Dean.

Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean Portrait Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean (Lab)
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My Lords, does the Minister agree that, as the Government have agreed to extend the deadline for negotiation and agreement, genuine compromise on both sides is needed? Does he also agree that there must be further genuine compromise by the European Union and, equally importantly, by Her Majesty’s Government?

Lord True Portrait Lord True (Con)
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My Lords, the aspiration of the Government has been and remains to get a free trade deal with our friends and former partners in Europe. As the noble Baroness said—and I agree—an enormous number of areas of ground in the negotiations have been carried positively. But specific and deep differences remain on the well-known points that have been discussed, including the so-called level playing field and fisheries. Those are matters of intensive negotiations. The chief negotiators began to negotiate again at 10 am this morning. I will not prejudge what might be going on in those negotiations, but I can assure the House that the intention of the Government is positive. As the Prime Minister said, while there is life, there is hope.

Lord Howard of Rising Portrait Lord Howard of Rising (Con) [V]
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Does my noble friend the Minister agree that there is a strong element of Alice in Wonderland permeating our negotiations with the European Union? Normally, when two parties negotiate a transaction from which both sides will benefit, the side with the most to gain customarily makes the concessions and is the party making the greatest effort to achieve a satisfactory conclusion. The EU is making a £90 billion profit each year from trading with the United Kingdom. Does the Minister agree that the posturing of the EU and its treatment of the United Kingdom as a colony is out of place? An example of this is Monsieur Macron acting as if France has a God-given right of access to British fish in British waters. Does he further agree that the superb work done by the noble Lord, Lord Frost, and his assistant, Oliver Lewis, to try to make the EU understand that Great Britain is not a colony of the European Union but a free and sovereign state is to be applauded?

Lord True Portrait Lord True (Con)
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My Lords, I can certainly agree that my noble friend Lord Frost and his colleague, Mr Lewis, are doing their duty to the very greatest extent. Of course, that is not helped by the injection of new material into the negotiations at a late stage. As I have said before at this Dispatch Box, I do not go into criticising the Governments of other nations. All I would say is that we are going to try as hard as we can and to be as creative as we possibly can in taking this on. However, what we cannot do is compromise on the fundamental nature of what Brexit is all about. It is about being able to control all our laws and to have control of our fisheries.

Lord Kerr of Kinlochard Portrait Lord Kerr of Kinlochard (CB) [V]
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I do not think that the European Union is treating us as a colony. Indeed, the Spanish Foreign Minister reminded us this morning that trade negotiations are not about asserting independence but about managing interdependence. My question is about the language in the Statement, which yet again says that any deal must be compatible with our sovereignty and must respect our new status as a sovereign, equal and independent country. Does the Minister believe that the French Republic, the Kingdom of Spain, the Federal Republic of Germany and the other 24 EU member states are neither independent nor sovereign? If he does accept that they are independent sovereign states, just like us, why do we insist on insulting them again and again by implying in public that they are not?

Lord True Portrait Lord True (Con)
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My Lords, the noble Lord is a masterly negotiator; I remember the Maastricht deal. However, I think he has advanced a syllogistic argument that I cannot follow. The fact is that nations may use their sovereignty in whichever way they choose, and out choice as a sovereign nation is that we wish to control our laws, our borders and our waters.

Lord McNicol of West Kilbride Portrait The Deputy Speaker (Lord McNicol of West Kilbride) (Lab)
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My Lords, the time allowed for this Question has elapsed.

United Kingdom Internal Market Bill

Lord True Excerpts
Moved by
Lord True Portrait Lord True
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That this House do not insist on its Amendments 1B, 1C and 1D to which the Commons have disagreed for their Reason 1E.

1E: Because the Lords Amendments will create legal uncertainty, which would be disruptive to business.

Lord True Portrait The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Lord True) (Con)
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My Lords, I will address Amendments 1F, 1G, 1H, 1J, 1K and 1L. Last week, the other place was clear in its disagreement with Amendments 1B, 1C and 1D when it removed them from this Bill.

I appreciate the ongoing contributions of noble Lords to these debates on the interactions between the market access principles and common frameworks. I very much welcome the constructive engagement we have had on this issue since last Wednesday. In particular, I thank the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, for his continued contribution and for his willingness to engage in ongoing dialogue on his amendments, which he has tabled in lieu.

There have also been constructive conversations with the Labour Front Bench over the past week, for which I am grateful. I look forward to continuing discussions with the noble Baroness opposite and the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson of Balmacara, in seeking to bridge the gap between our two positions. I should also express my appreciation of the helpful contributions and advice from my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay of Clashfern.

As I said in the House last week, the previous amendments from the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, would have created a broad regime of exclusions from the market access principles, which would have denied businesses and consumers much-needed clarity regarding the terms of trade within which they operate. The Government have been clear throughout these debates that we agree on the need for an exclusions regime, but one that is carefully drafted and provides certainty for business. In drafting the Bill, specifically Clauses 10 and 17, the Government have designed an exclusions approach that achieves a careful balance.

I understand the aim of the noble and learned Lord’s revision to his amendment, which is to further specify the interaction between divergence agreed under common frameworks and exclusions to the market access principles. However, our assessment remains that the approach in these amendments goes too far in both the breadth of the exclusions it may require the Secretary of State to create and the uncertainty it could lead to. This runs counter to the certainty that the Bill is designed to provide.

To further emphasise the Government’s position, I will take the opportunity to clarify some of the points noble Lords raised during our debate last week. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope of Craighead, expressed concern that traders may need to consider relevant regulations in different parts of the United Kingdom. I reiterate that the mutual recognition principle provides reassurance for traders, in that as long as they comply with local relevant requirements they do not need to worry about those other parts. This is the advantage of our proposed approach: we have carefully created an architecture that means that a trader will have clarity regarding the rules they should follow. As I have said before, the uncertainty introduced by the wholesale exclusions from the market access principles afforded by the amendment should not be supported by the House.

The common frameworks process will encourage a conversation about a common approach and so provide for consensus-based decision-making in sectoral areas of the economy. However, the Government believe that common frameworks on their own cannot determine where matters should or should not be in scope of the market access principles. That is a job for the UK Parliament and for MPs from the whole of the United Kingdom.

The Government also believe that the system they have designed should create a proper balance between the independent operation of devolved powers and the automatic application of the principles that protect the market and give certainty. The Government have been clear in Parliament about our commitment to the common frameworks programme, which I repeat today, and the value we attach to the fora that common frameworks provide for collaborative working with the devolved Administrations. As noble Lords are aware, the common frameworks programme provides an avenue for discussing ways of working and as such is primarily concerned with processes rather than determining specific policy outcomes.

The programme aims to put in place durable arrangements for intergovernmental working between the Government and the devolved Administrations, and our intention remains that these mechanisms for co-operation on specific policy areas will allow for coherent policy-making between the UK Government and the devolved Administrations in those policy areas. For this reason, we think that the common frameworks programme is complementary to the mechanisms set out in the Bill, and I respectfully suggest again that the approach put forward in the amendments is contrary to the Government’s responsibility to provide businesses with the certainty they need to operate across the United Kingdom. I repeat my gratitude to other noble Lords for the constructive conversations that have been taking place.

Motion A1 (as an amendment to Motion A)

Moved by
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Lord True Portrait Lord True (Con)
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My Lords, once again, I am very grateful to those who have contributed to the debate. Although the cast is smaller, I know that the interest is no less great. The sense of respect for the devolved institutions, which has gone right across your Lordships’ debates on the Bill, is important and shared by all of us, however we view the question raised in the amendments.

I also thank all those who have participated in the ongoing dialogue outside your Lordships’ House on this matter. Naturally, I will shortly seek to persuade your Lordships not to support the noble and learned Lord’s Motion for the reasons I have given, but the strength of feeling expressed in this House and in the other place is testament to the important role that common frameworks play in intergovernmental working and this country’s future outside the European Union, and indeed within the overall structure of intergovernmental relations within the United Kingdom.

The Government are committed to working with the devolved Administrations to deliver these agreements to the benefit of people from all four corners of the United Kingdom, and we welcome the strong support that has been shown for common frameworks by both Houses, not least by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope of Craighead, in his noble efforts to unwrap a Christmas parcel. I am sure that the jewel of mutual respect is there, whatever the outcome of the debates on this question.

Common frameworks allow the Government and the devolved Administrations to engage in meaningful dialogue about how all parts of the country can benefit from the new powers flowing from the European Union. I say to the noble Baroness opposite that they are flowing from the European Union. However, common frameworks are primarily concerned with processes rather than determining specific policy outcomes, and as such they do not obviate the need for the market access principles in these areas. I believe it is common ground across this Chamber that it is for the United Kingdom Parliament and its Members from all four nations to have a role in safeguarding a market across all parts of the United Kingdom.

Common frameworks are not intended to be an all-encompassing solution to the maintenance of that internal market. The Government’s belief is that additional legislative protection provided by this Bill will provide certainty for the status quo of internal UK trade. Broad disapplication of elements of the Bill risks removing that certainty, which is needed for business and citizens in all four parts of the United Kingdom. Again, I believe that is a common objective. For that reason, we believe both common frameworks and the market access principles—if the word “complementary” is not cared for, I will say “working in tandem”—to be necessary to guarantee the integrity of the entire United Kingdom internal market.

The security that this Bill provides is crucial for the people and businesses of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. It is essential that we ensure that this certainty is provided in all areas, including in the devolved policy areas, where powers flow from the European Union to London, Edinburgh, Cardiff and Belfast.

Of course, I hear the arguments and representations put forward in the characteristically modest approach of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope of Craighead, but the Government’s belief is that we cannot afford to risk denying our citizens the ability to trade seamlessly across the United Kingdom, as they do now. I hope this is something that your Lordships’ House can agree with, and I hope that, in order to provide this certainty, the noble and learned Lord will find himself able to withdraw his Motion. In the event that he is unable to do so, the remarks that I made earlier obviously stand.

Lord Hope of Craighead Portrait Lord Hope of Craighead (CB) [V]
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I am grateful to those who have contributed to this short debate. I would like to pick up on some words that the Minister said in his reply. The words “mutual respect” have characterised the meetings that I have been privileged to take part in as we have moved towards the position that I am adopting. I think it is a very healthy system that allows us to conduct these discussions in such a manner as we seek out the positions that each of us is trying to adopt and possible ways of accommodating them.

At the end of the day, as I have said on a number of occasions, it really is up to the Government. I am looking to them to facilitate in some way the process by which an agreed decision to diverge, which has gone through all the processes of the common frameworks system, may be protected against the sharp edges of the internal market principles. I do not believe that that will in any way disrupt the workings of the internal market; indeed, there are benefits from allowing the devolved Administrations to develop their ideas in a way that is consistent with the internal market by the use of this process and the opportunity for divergence that it allows for.

The Minister has invited me to withdraw my Motion, but in truth I cannot properly do that, given that we are in a process of continuing discussion and we have not yet had a proposal from the Government that provides a solution to the problem that I am seeking to address in my amendments. For those reasons, I wish to test the opinion of the House.

--- Later in debate ---
Moved by
Lord True Portrait Lord True
- Hansard - -

That this House do not insist on its insistence on its Amendments 14, 52, 53 and 54 to which the Commons have insisted on their disagreement for their Reason 14C.

14C: Because the Lords Amendments (together with Lords Amendment 55 which has been agreed by both Houses) were only made in consequence of the omission of Part 5 by Lords Amendments 42 to 47 and so have become unnecessary following the Lords non-insistence on Lords Amendments 42, 43 and 46.

Lord True Portrait Lord True (Con)
- Hansard - -

My Lords, I am introducing a new government amendment, containing new Clause 43A, as well as moving Motions C, D and E, which will rectify the oddities left by the removal of Clauses 44, 45 and 47. Now that we have an agreement in principle with the European Union through the joint committee, as we discussed in the last round of these discussions in your Lordships’ House, the safety net clauses are no longer required.

The EU’s declaration on Article 10 of the Northern Ireland protocol clarifies that subsidies are within scope of the state aid rules in the protocol only where there is a “genuine and direct link” to Northern Ireland and a “real and foreseeable” impact on trade between Northern Ireland and the European Union. The House has been concerned, as has the other place, about the risk of reach-back; the EU’s clarification addresses this. The concern was that a company in Great Britain with only a peripheral link to commercial operations in Northern Ireland could be caught inadvertently by the tests within the protocol’s text, which was neither acceptable nor what the protocol had envisaged.

However, public authorities giving subsidies and the beneficiaries still need guidance regarding Article 10 of the protocol. Therefore, new Clause 43A stipulates:

“The Secretary of State must publish guidance on the practical application of Article 10”.


The clause requires the Secretary of State’s guidance to reflect any relevant decision or recommendation of the joint committee or any declaration made by either party of which the other party takes note. The Secretary of State may update the guidance, for example, to reflect developments in either the joint committee or relevant EU law. Public authorities will be required to have regard to this guidance, helping to ensure a consistent and uniform application of Article 10. This approach is fully in accordance with the United Kingdom Government’s commitments under the Northern Ireland protocol and international and domestic law. The new clause is an important part of putting the protocol into effect and for the agreement in principle with the European Union to function.

I know that noble Lords have welcomed progress on this part of the Bill, and I beg to move.

Lord Judge Portrait Lord Judge (CB) [V]
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I speak to Clause 43A. Consistent with the Minister’s undertaking last week, this new clause is not tainted with the admitted unlawfulness that marked Clauses 44, 45 and 47. By way of a footnote, in view of the Minister’s observation, I will say that those clauses should never have been there in the first place. As the Minister has explained, this clause is concerned with the issuing of guidance by the Secretary of State in relation to Article 10 of the Northern Ireland protocol, and any subsequent implementation of that guidance. Either process must pay full attention to the decisions and recommendations of the joint committee, itself established under Article 164 of the withdrawal agreement. Non-compliance, if it were to arise, would, if necessary, be justiciable.

There is nothing further that I can say in relation to this clause. It seems to be a very sensible solution to a difficult problem.

Lord Falconer of Thoroton Portrait Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)
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The noble Lord, Lord True, has been true to his word. He has produced Clause 43A, which does not contain any element of illegality, as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, said. I also agree with the noble and learned Lord that it is a sensible provision and we welcome it. It brings to an end a saga for which this country has plainly paid a price. Everybody commenting on the position of the European Union at the moment is saying that the reason it is currently seeking the arbitral and consultation provisions, and the threshold for the ratchet up, is that it does not trust us—and one of the reasons for that is the internal market Bill and its illegality.

Lord True Portrait Lord True (Con)
- Hansard - -

My Lords, the noble and learned Lord opposite always has a delightful habit of ending his eloquent speeches with a couple of sentences that I find it hard to agree with, and I do not agree with his interpretation there. But I thank those who have contributed to this short debate. I am grateful for the welcome for the Government’s proposal—I do not talk about tails between legs—and that the other parts of Part 5, to which your Lordships objected before, have been accepted. As perceived from this side of the House, that was the correct action.

I need not repeat the essence of this. Clause 43A is required in the Bill because, as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, said, it is an important part of implementing the protocol. The clause places a duty on the Secretary of State to provide guidance. I welcome the fact that the EU has clarified that subsidies are within the scope of Article 10 only under the conditions that I described—a genuine and direct link to Northern Ireland and a real, foreseeable impact on trade between Northern Ireland and the EU. This addresses the risk of reach-back and must be reflected in the guidance that the Government will provide.

I am also, of course, grateful for the remarks of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge. In concluding, I will emphasise, as he did, that this approach is fully in accordance with the United Kingdom’s commitments under the Northern Ireland protocol and international and domestic law.

Motion C agreed.
Moved by
Lord True Portrait Lord True
- Hansard - -

That this House do agree with the Commons in their Amendment 45C.

45C: After Clause 43, insert the following new Clause—


43A Guidance on Article 10 of the Northern Ireland Protocol


(1) The Secretary of State must publish guidance on the practical application of Article 10 of the Northern Ireland Protocol (State aid).


(2) For that purpose Article 10 is to be read in the light of—


(a) any relevant decision or recommendation of the Joint Committee, and


(b) any relevant declaration that is made in the Joint Committee by either party, of which the other party takes note.


(3) The guidance must be published before the end of the period of one month beginning with the day on which this section comes into force.


(4) A person with public functions relating to the implementation of Article 10 (including functions involving the provision of financial assistance or other subsidies) must have regard to the guidance when exercising such functions.


(5) The Secretary of State may—


(a) revise or replace the guidance;


(b) if satisfied it is no longer necessary, withdraw the guidance.


(6) In this section “Joint Committee” means the committee established by Article 164(1) of the EU withdrawal agreement.”

Motion D agreed.
Moved by
Lord True Portrait Lord True
- Hansard - -

That this House do agree with the Commons in their Amendment 47C.

47C: Clause 43, page 35, line 3, leave out paragraph (b)

Motion E agreed.

UK-EU Withdrawal Agreement

Lord True Excerpts
Thursday 10th December 2020

(3 years, 3 months ago)

Lords Chamber
Read Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Purvis of Tweed Portrait Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)
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My Lords, I am grateful to the Government Chief Whip for facilitating a substitution on our Bench, and I am glad that the Minister is keen today. Will the noble Lord allow this House to debate the content of the technical papers as a result of the agreements that have been reached? We know that the Statement in the House of Commons was just one part. The statement from both the Vice-President of the Commission and the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster was very brief, but it alluded to a series of technical papers that will have far-reaching consequences for the operation of Northern Ireland and GB trade, as well as the other areas that are the responsibility of the joint committee. Will we be able to debate them?

During the passage of the Trade Bill, I have said repeatedly that one of the founding principles of my party was fair, free and open trade. We want to see businesses, large and small, across all countries in the UK, prosper. I do not think anybody could fail to have been moved, listening to “The World at One” on the BBC today, when a businessman in Northern Ireland, representing family businesses, laid bare the reality of the new costs that the Government are imposing on businesses doing their work. He said that, for his business, even with a deal with the European Union, he was looking at extra administrative costs of £150,000 —or, as he put it, four or five people whom he will not be employing.

The totality of these costs was highlighted by the announcement today of a further £400 million, which is going to offset the cost of bureaucracy and business burdens rather than being invested in people and our economy in Northern Ireland.

The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster said in the Statement that he wanted to see the border operating model for Northern Ireland

“fully operational on 1 January 2021”.

We know from the euphemisms about a grace period, or, on the border operating model, a phased introduction, that it will not be fully operational. In fact, it will not even be partially operational. It will not be ready. Ministers in this House and the other place have repeatedly blamed businesses for not being ready, when the Government themselves are not. I hope that the Minister will be able to answer specific questions today from across the House.

There was reference during Commons questions on the Statement to new border facilities for Northern Ireland

“in order to ensure that these limited and proportionate SPS checks”—

checks on live animals—

“can be carried out at the port of Foyle, Warrenpoint, Belfast and Larne”.—[Official Report, Commons, 9/12/20; col. 851.]

These are in addition to what we have always had at the port of Belfast, which has typically been checks on live animals coming across from Scotland. When will these four new ports be operational? Why is there the need for this expansion, if the Government’s mantra is that there are no additional checks? What extra checks, other than SPS, will be carried out on goods going from GB to Northern Ireland under this agreement?

The director at the port of Larne, Roger Armson, spoke to the Northern Ireland Assembly in October, raising concerns about the lack of clarity on the new system for IT at the border and the goods vehicle movement system. He said that given that 40% of cargos head south, it is vitally important to secure clarification. There is still no clarification, so can the Minister say when they will be able to have it?

In the Statement, the Minister said that the agreement will

“allow some EU officials to be present at Northern Ireland ports as UK authorities carry out our own procedures.”

This is the first time that foreign entity staff will be supervising UK staff at our ports. Where will they operate from? This Minister—the noble Lord, Lord True —said on 12 May:

“There is no reason why the Commission should require a permanent presence in Belfast to monitor the implementation of the protocol”.—[Official Report, 12/5/20; col. 655.]


We now know that there is, so how will it operate for these foreign inspectors?

The Minister could not answer simple questions with regard to goods that are packaged in Northern Ireland going to GB, and vice versa. He said that there is no clarity in the first phase but he was hoping that there would be some information very early in 2021. He said, “This is what I am advised”. What can he advise the House now as to when businesses will be clear about the information that they need to put on their goods—goods that are either packaged in Northern Ireland or goods that are going to be moved from GB to Northern Ireland? We need answers.

In its paper on Monday this week, the Chamber of Commerce agreed that it needs answers. That paper made grim reading. Of 35 sets of key questions which they had signposted with a traffic-light system, only 11 were marked green—meaning that they have been given satisfactory answers. There were 19 at amber and five at red. One of the red questions was about what food labelling will be in place. We know that there is a grace period but is it purely, as the Statement said, to allow supermarkets to prepare? To prepare for what? Has the decision been made about whether foodstuffs going from GB to Northern Ireland will have to have EU or UK labelling? A grace period is only that if we know what happens at the end of the three months. Where is the clarity?

It is not just businesses that have not had answers. On 12 November, I asked the noble Lord, Lord True, what labelling would be required for goods. I will quote from Hansard:

“My Lords, I will write to the noble Lord on his very specific point about labelling.”—[Official Report, 12/11/20; col. 1141.]


I have not had a response. I reminded the Minister’s office on 30 November and had a courteous reply from his private secretary, saying that the letter had been commissioned and that he would chase it. I still have not received it. It is not only businesses that are not getting answers but parliamentarians.

We knew that there would be no contingency arrangements for Northern Ireland in the event of no deal when the Government made their announcement earlier this year about some of the potential new checks that would be put in place, plus the new infrastructure and new costs on business. As the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, indicated, we know that there are no contingency arrangements in place for Northern Ireland when the Prime Minister comes to prepare for no deal, so all these questions are valid.

Regarding the rest of the UK and the announcement from the Commission today regarding contingencies, we will potentially have what is often euphemistically referred to as an Australian deal. But even Australia and the EU have an air agreement and a number of agreements that do not require contingencies to be put in place in just a matter of days’ time. The Commission said that the United Kingdom would be subject to these arrangements if they are equivalent. I quote the Commission’s paper:

“These arrangements would be subject to the United Kingdom conferring equivalent rights to air carriers from the Union, as well as providing strong guarantees on fair competition and on the effective enforcement of these rights and guarantees.”


That is the same for air, haulage operators and others.

Will the Government give such equivalent rights, so that if we are to prepare for the worst we can at the very least ensure that there is equivalence for the contingency arrangements that will be in place? That will remove at least one element of confusion on top of other burdens and costs that businesses will have to face in just a few days’ time.

Lord True Portrait The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Lord True) (Con)
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My Lords, there was a very large number of questions there, but most appeared to be in the “dissatisfied” column. I know the House finds this not particularly pleasant to hear, but the United Kingdom Government have made it clear for a very long time that we would not accept an agreement that did not recognise the decision of the people of United Kingdom twice to vote for a sovereign separation from the European Union which should involve our right to control our laws, our borders and our waters.

I infer from the noble Baroness’s remarks that the Labour Party would accept a deal that would not provide us with control of our borders, our laws and our fish because the line she put forward was effectively “agreement at any cost”. We are working tirelessly to get a deal. The Prime Minister made that clear. As I said, we have been clear from the outset that we cannot accept a deal at any cost. As has been made clear this week, there are still differences between the two parties. To repeat what I just said, we cannot accept a deal that will compromise control of our money, our laws, our borders and our fish.

I say in response to both the noble Baroness and the noble Lord that we have been preparing for a long time for all contingencies. We have discussed matters with the devolved Administrations, businesses and affected partners. We have issued advice on a border control operating scheme. We have issued advice to various sectors in Northern Ireland. We are engaged in constant discussions and meetings with those who will potentially be affected. We are also preparing for an Australian-style outcome if necessary. We have invested £705 million in jobs, technology and infrastructure at the border, and provided substantial grants to boost the customs intermediary sector and so on.

The majority of the changes, referring to the impact on businesses, will occur from 1 January 2021 regardless of whether a free trade agreement is made with the EU. Of course, I accept one could always do more to perfect communication, and we are investing an enormous amount of resources to get the case over, to reach businesses and to reach those affected. We are absolutely committed to ensuring businesses have all the information they need to get ready. But I was not sure if the noble Lord was objecting to the idea of phasing the introduction of some arrangements. We believe that that is a sensible and pragmatic approach.

On security, we see no reason why security arrangements should be seriously affected. There is a common interest for all the countries in Europe in relation to security.

On labelling, I may be misremembering, but I believe I wrote to the noble Lord on 30 November with a detailed answer to his question on labelling. If he has not received the letter, I apologise, but I am informed by my office that it was sent.

I was also asked about supermarkets. It is not only supermarkets that we wish to help with the new trader assistance approach; we will reach beyond large operators, but the grace period is offered to supermarkets.

It was implied that EU officials will be issuing directions to United Kingdom staff, but I can assure the House that that is not the case. The House is constantly asking the Government to honour the terms of the protocol, and as the House knows, within the protocol, the EU has the right to ensure and see that matters are being appropriately conducted. But that has never meant, and will never mean, that the EU necessarily has to have an office, embassy or mission building in Belfast. I stand by the comments I and other Ministers have made.

On the announcement today of a new deal for Northern Ireland, the £400 million is on top of other resources announced for assistance with making preparations. So, there is no double counting there; this is new resource.

As far as debates are concerned, both the noble Baroness and the noble Lord will understand that that is a matter for usual channels. There will be another Statement on Monday, I believe, but I hear the noble Lord’s comment about a wider debate. However, he will understand that limited time is available.

Looking at the clock, I am not sure whether I am bound by the 20 minute-rule. Last time I went on after 20 minutes, I was told I should not have done. I cannot get used to the rules of the hybrid House. I thought I should answer the noble Baroness first; I in no way meant to belittle the noble Lord on the Liberal Democrat Benches.

Of course, I reject absolutely the general comments about the United Kingdom Government’s stance and the accusatory remarks made about the Prime Minister. The Prime Minister has been candid, on the one hand, about our position. In a negotiation, each side needs to understand the other’s position. The purported subject of the Statement repeated to the House—the Joint Committee agreement on the Northern Ireland protocol—is a good example of pragmatic co-operation. So, there is evidence that the United Kingdom Government are prepared to seek agreement and negotiate in good faith.

The position, I am afraid to say, does remain, as has been made clear on innumerable occasions—this is not a change or a novelty—that we simply are asking the EU, with the greatest respect, to accept free trade agreement arrangements with us that are similar to those it has agreed with other nations around the world. We do not think that that is an unreasonable request or aspiration. We also ask that they respect and understand the decision of the British people that they wish to have—I make no apology for using the word—sovereign control of their laws, their borders and their waters.

I believe a pragmatic and good outcome is the main burden of this Statement in relation to the agreement on the Northern Ireland protocol. As far as the broader negotiations are concerned, those are continuing, albeit amid the candour on both sides about the difficulties that remain. Let us see how events turn out over the next few days.

Lord Russell of Liverpool Portrait The Deputy Speaker (Lord Russell of Liverpool) (CB)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

We now come to the 30 minutes allocated for Back-Bench questions. There are 18 speakers listed. I appeal to all noble Lords, out of courtesy to one another and to the House, to be extremely brief. I am sure that the Minister will also be succinct.

Earl of Kinnoull Portrait The Earl of Kinnoull (Non-Afl) [V]
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, the Statement and its associated Command Paper are very welcome, particularly as they are evidence that both sides in the UK-EU joint committee are now working together in a pragmatic and friendly way. I congratulate all involved. However, we still have no satisfactory structures in place for parliamentary scrutiny, either of the joint committee itself or of new EU law applying to Northern Ireland under the protocol. What steps is the Minister taking to facilitate such scrutiny?

Lord True Portrait Lord True (Con)
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My Lords, I am a poor and feeble plant, but by standing here I am seeking to assist scrutiny. I understand the broader thrust of the question from the noble Earl, but he will also understand that arrangements for the scrutiny of government across the board by committees in your Lordships’ House is not a matter for the Executive. It is matter for your Lordships’ House and it is not for me to declare. As far as my ministerial responsibility is concerned, I am ready to appear before whatever committee, and this House, at any time that is requested.

Lord Robathan Portrait Lord Robathan (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, many people will have been very disappointed that the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, had not a word or hint of criticism of intransigence on the EU side—only of those working to the best of their ability for the interests of the British people. For instance, what about Macron’s stance on fish? By the way, I voted to leave the EU for sovereignty, not for any other reason. This update is welcome. It is not perfect; I am not sure I give it a full three cheers and changes may be required in the future, but at least there was a spirit of compromise on negotiation from both sides. Can my noble friend confirm that the protocol allows for further changes depending on how things work out?

Lord True Portrait Lord True (Con)
- Hansard - -

That is certainly true. At the end of the day, the maintenance of the protocol will remain a matter for democratic decision by the people of Northern Ireland. I am grateful for my noble friend’s opening remarks.

Lord Russell of Liverpool Portrait The Deputy Speaker (Lord Russell of Liverpool) (CB)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

The noble Lord, Lord Bird, has withdrawn, so I call the noble Lord, Lord Clark of Windermere.

Lord Clark of Windermere Portrait Lord Clark of Windermere (Lab) [V]
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, all Members of the House are aware that the Isle of Man lies half way between the United Kingdom and Northern Ireland, yet it has never been a member of the European Union in its own right and is not included in the UK membership of the EU. That relationship is dependent upon protocol 3 of the UK’s Act of accession. That protocol also allows the island to be part of the European Union customs area. Will the Minister double check—or indeed treble check—that the interests of the Isle of Man are covered by and included in this agreement?

Lord True Portrait Lord True (Con)
- Hansard - -

My Lords, I will certainly check, as the noble Lord asks. I am not briefed in detail on the Isle of Man but I will make sure that I write to him and that the letter is made available to others present.

Lord Empey Portrait Lord Empey (UUP)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My noble friend will be aware of my views on the protocol, which I believe is a dagger pointed at the heart of the union. But I wish to ask him two technical questions. First, the Statement mentions a three-month delay for the implementation of food into supermarkets. What about the majority of goods that travel between Great Britain and Northern Ireland? Are they, the bulk of traffic, getting any help with an implementation period? Secondly, with regard to goods between GB and NI, for normal goods—non-supermarket goods—will there no longer be a requirement to obtain power of attorney, to have a customs-compliant commercial invoice and to make an entry into the TSS system? It is the technicalities and the bureaucracies that are causing business the greatest anxiety.

Lord True Portrait Lord True (Con)
- Hansard - -

My Lords, on the specific technical points on power of attorney and so on, I will seek very specific responses, and I undertake to write to the noble Lord on that. Obviously, the three-month grace period is to allow authorised traders—such as super- markets, but other organisations will able to partake—and their suppliers to adapt to certification requirements. Alongside that, the Trader Support Service and the movement assistance scheme will provide support across the board.

Baroness Neville-Rolfe Portrait Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I welcome the limited progress outlined in the Statement on arrangements for the transport of goods, food and drink across the Irish Sea and, in some cases, to or from the Irish border. This was always the job of the joint committee: “pragmatic co-operation”, in my noble friend’s words. However, I would like to know whether some trial shipments by sea and land, and by small and large business—dummy runs, if you like—using the agreed systems, the paperwork, the labelling, the VAT and the tariffs have been attempted across both borders. If so, what were the results?

Lord True Portrait Lord True (Con)
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My Lords, so far as individual, specific, in-person dummy runs are concerned, I cannot categorically answer that, but I will find out if I can supply my noble friend with an answer. What I can assure her of is almost daily—literally daily—discussions and consideration at the highest level of the technical and specific impacts of the new regime, or regimes, that come in either on 1 January or in the course of next year. Indeed, the Government have conducted privately a number of specific exercises to test various contingencies.

Lord Berkeley Portrait Lord Berkeley (Lab) [V]
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, today the House of Lords EU Goods Sub-Committee has written to Michael Gove, seeking information on government preparedness which, from the evidence the committee received—and I have the honour to be a member of it—appears to be hopelessly late, ineffective and failing on many fronts. The letter lists multiple concerns: IT, communications, transport, and many others. But can I press the Minister today to answer just one small, but very important, question mentioned in the letter? Will he commit the Government to placing toilets at regular intervals adjacent to the queuing lanes on the M20? Everybody thinks they will be needed—deal or no deal.

Lord True Portrait Lord True (Con)
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My Lords, I do not carry ministerial responsibility for public conveniences—

None Portrait Noble Lords
- Hansard -

Yes, you do.

Lord True Portrait Lord True (Con)
- Hansard - -

I do not carry ministerial responsibility for public conveniences, if I am allowed to complete the sentence. So far as the planning contingencies for what may or may not happen after 31 December are concerned, I assure the noble Lord that all eventualities are taken into consideration.

Lord Wigley Portrait Lord Wigley (PC) [V]
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, does the Prime Minister now realise that he cannot have his cake and eat it? But I limit myself to the Statement before us, which explicitly asserts that lamb may be sold from Montgomeryshire to Northern Ireland free of any tariff. If that meat is then sold on to the Irish Republic, will it be liable to the 76% tariff for fresh or chilled sheepmeat carcasses applicable in a no-deal scenario? At what point will that charge be levied, and by whom?

Lord True Portrait Lord True (Con)
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My Lords, the arrangements we are discussing today relate to the protocol and movements between GB and NI and, indeed, NI and GB. Obviously, a future tariff regime between the United Kingdom and the European Union depends on the outcome of free trade negotiations, which are still continuing.

Baroness Meyer Portrait Baroness Meyer (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I welcome this agreement, which is a significant breakthrough. However, given that Northern Ireland will continue to follow EU customs rules after 31 December, can my noble friend the Minister confirm that in a case where the ECJ seeks to claim jurisdiction in Northern Ireland, Parliament will if necessary be able to assert sovereignty and authority and overrule the ECJ?

Lord True Portrait Lord True (Con)
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My Lords, Parliament voted in the withdrawal treaty Act to include a section asserting UK sovereignty. As for the specifics of any course of justice or jurisdiction, it will have to follow the appropriate course, in line with the protocol.

Lord Singh of Wimbledon Portrait Lord Singh of Wimbledon (CB) [V]
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, with the prospect of a deal with the EU fast receding, the Prime Minister’s visit to India next month has the potential for increased trade with the subcontinent. Can the Minister assure the House that any plans to increase food imports from India will respect the human rights of small farmers already reeling from new laws allowing big business to dictate commodity prices?

Lord True Portrait Lord True (Con)
- Hansard - -

My Lords, I will not go into the specifics of negotiations with India, although I know the noble Lord has a particular interest and I respect and understand that. The objective of Her Majesty’s Government is to extend free trade agreements as widely as we may, because we believe free trade is one of the greatest sources of the uplifting of poverty and the human condition that has ever been devised. I welcome the recent announcement of a further free trade agreement, with Singapore.

Lord Whitty Portrait Lord Whitty (Lab) [V]
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My Lords, the problems for Northern Ireland business are not solely those relating to the ports. For example, on Tuesday we debated an SI amending the REACH arrangements for the use of chemicals. It is clear that businesses both operating in and supplying Northern Ireland will have to engage in a dual process of registration in both the European and British systems. The arrangements announced today do nothing to ameliorate that. What help will the Government give to users of chemicals in Northern Ireland, and indeed in other regimes that require a duality of approach and therefore administrative costs to Northern Irish businesses?

Lord True Portrait Lord True (Con)
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My Lords, the movement of chemicals brings particular complexities, as the noble Lord rightly points out, but the Government are committing an enormous amount of resource to the support of Northern Ireland businesses in terms of the movement of goods. That had already been announced. Indeed, I was criticised by the noble Baroness opposite for the scale of support the Government are giving to Northern Ireland and to business generally in confronting the new regime.

Lord Morrow Portrait Lord Morrow (DUP) [V]
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Under Article 8 of the Northern Ireland protocol, Northern Ireland will remain part of the EU VAT regime as well as being subject to the UK VAT rules. In practice, that will increase the amount of debt that businesses in Northern Ireland have to collect, which will in some cases lead to higher payments, with a knock-on effect for the consumer. For those in the second-hand car sales trade, the threat is particularly grave. Cars brought in from GB will now have VAT imposed on the full value rather than on the profits made on the sale. Can the Minister tell us why this disruption to the UK internal market was not prioritised in negotiations and why there is no mention of relief for affected businesses in his Statement? Can he outline what unilateral support the Government will provide to small and medium-sized businesses caught by these damaging rules?

Lord True Portrait Lord True (Con)
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My Lords, I repeat the very substantial announcements of financial support for Northern Ireland and Northern Ireland business that I referred to in earlier responses. On VAT, as part of implementing the VAT elements of the Northern Ireland protocol, the UK and the EU Commission have needed to agree how EU VAT rules will apply in the unique circumstances created in Northern Ireland, where traders will continue to be part of both the UK and the EU system. That agreement has been reached and is laid out in the Statement. Further guidance on these topics is being published for traders.

We have heard a concern raised about the application of EU second-hand margin schemes. Obviously, these changes will not affect stock bought in advance of 1 January, even if it is sold later, but we acknowledge that this is not a long-lasting solution to these issues. We aim to minimise disruption for Northern Ireland traders to the extent possible, and we continue to explore options.

Lord Russell of Liverpool Portrait The Deputy Speaker (Lord Russell of Liverpool) (CB)
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The noble Lord, Lord Balfe, has withdrawn, so I call the noble Lord, Lord Rooker.

Lord Rooker Portrait Lord Rooker (Lab) [V]
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I am grateful to the Minister. To be honest, listening to him, I can hear that he is in an incredibly difficult situation with things moving outside the Chamber. I will confine myself to a single point. Northern Ireland will be treated differently—as it always has been—on the customs union and the single market, while it is out of the common agricultural policy, as the Statement says. My question is simple: what is the position of the rapid alert system for food and feed? Some eight to 10 notifications are issued per day around the European Union. How does Northern Ireland figure in RASFF? Is it out or will it be part of RASFF after 31 December, irrespective of whether there is a deal? Food production per head of population in Northern Ireland is far more significant than in England or, indeed, in Scotland, so it is an absolutely crucial issue for Northern Ireland industries. Will they be part of RASFF or not?

Lord True Portrait Lord True (Con)
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My Lords, regrettably, I cannot give a specific answer to that question. I am certain that there is a specific answer and the weakness is in me. I assure the noble Lord that he will get an answer to that question.

Lord Moylan Portrait Lord Moylan (Con)
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My Lords, I am no longer trepidatious about the prospect of leaving the European Union with no deal. If that is the course recommended by the Prime Minister, I will heartily support him.

On this Statement, it is clear that Northern Ireland will remain in some ways subject to the European Union acquis and thus to the European Court of Justice. Will my noble friend agree to set out—no doubt in writing afterwards—a comprehensive and systematic statement of those parts of Northern Irish life that will remain subject to the European Union acquis so that we all have a firm grasp on it?

Lord True Portrait Lord True (Con)
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My Lords, I will undertake to do that, yes.

Lord Liddle Portrait Lord Liddle (Lab)
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My Lords, I regard this agreement in the joint committee as good progress on a difficult issue and I notice that, in his Statement yesterday, Michael Gove in fact paid tribute to the Vice-President of the European Commission on the pragmatic approach that the Commission had adopted. When it comes to the wider context of our relationship, does the Minister not agree that the Government are making things far worse by insisting on claiming that the European Union is trying to deny us of the sovereignty we have won as a result of Brexit? It is doing nothing of the sort. It is saying that you can have your sovereignty, but if you want to divert from the rules that we presently have, this represents unfair competition. If it represents unfair competition, you have to recognise that the special and privileged access to the single market that this trade deal will give you can be constrained. Why do the Government not simply recognise that fact, rather than harping on about sovereignty? We will have as much sovereignty to diverge as we want, but we cannot have our cake and eat it.

Lord True Portrait Lord True (Con)
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My Lords, the Government, as I said at the outset, have asked for nothing more than an agreement similar to the Canada free trade agreement and other agreements that the EU has struck with other nations. It is for the noble Lord to decide, if the EU wishes to refuse that request, whether that is reasonable or unreasonable.

Baroness McIntosh of Pickering Portrait Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con) [V]
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My Lords, I urge my noble friend and the Prime Minister to push the boat out, so to speak, to get an agreement. If the European Court of Justice is not to be the dispute resolution mechanism for the Northern Ireland protocol, what resolution mechanism does he have in mind?

Lord True Portrait Lord True (Con)
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My Lords, on the details of the mechanism proposed under the protocol, as well as the protocol statement that has been made, my noble friend will find that a number of draft decisions are also being laid before Parliament setting out in greater detail the arrangements agreed, which include provision for the settlement of disputes.

Baroness Fox of Buckley Portrait Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-Afl)
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My Lords, we are assured in the Statement that the primacy of sovereignty is now beyond doubt. This sounds very positive to me, but I am not convinced that there are not worrying cracks in the Statement that sovereignty can seep through. I echo noble Lords who asked for more detail on EU intervention, but my main point is that, in debates here and in the other place, it has been suggested that that this agreement was pushed through in order to make a deal possible from the EU’s point of view. Can the noble Lord reassure us that he understands that those “red wall” voters who loaned their votes to the Government did not do so for a trade deal? 2016 was not about a trade deal. If it happens, fine, but it is about sovereignty, and sovereignty is not in trade or in technicalities, as discussed here. Does the noble Lord understand it, as some of us do, to be about democratic control at home and not just about trade? Maybe it is time to walk away in order to retain that democratic, sovereign control.

Lord True Portrait Lord True (Con)
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My Lords, I find myself between a rock and a hard place, because many of those who have asked questions today have been critical of the Prime Minister for stating what he has said about sovereignty and the need to protect our right to control our borders, to make our own laws and to control our fish. That is a statement that he and the Government have repeatedly made: we ask the EU to recognise and negotiate with us in good faith as an independent sovereign nation, which is what we wish to be. On the other hand, the protocol recognises that we are seeking to be pragmatic, and there are many benefits that your Lordships have not brought out: export declarations have been put in the bin; we have protected supermarkets; and businesses will be able to use VAT returns as they do today, without any burdensome process for splitting some of the issues. So there are pragmatic positives. However, I must tell the noble Baroness that the Prime Minister should be taken at his word on what he is saying.

Baroness Gardner of Parkes Portrait Baroness Gardner of Parkes (Con) [V]
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My Lords, I welcome the Statement and, in particular, the straightforward and clear way in which it has been set out. I am conscious that time is limited, so will focus on just the transition period of up to 12 months being granted to industries to ensure the continuity of supply of medicines and veterinary medication. These are vital supplies and I am pleased that they have been addressed at the outset. However, a period of up to 12 months might not be enough. I suggest that a minimum of, ideally, 12 months, with a review after six months, would be better, and I ask for the Minister’s view on this.

Lord True Portrait Lord True (Con)
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My Lords, I will take advice on my noble friend’s suggestions of a six-month review. As my noble friend said, we have sought to secure agreement to a pragmatic approach not only on medicines but on other things in implementing the protocol, but it is particularly important in relation to medicines regulation. It will give industry the time and flexibility that it needs and ensure that medicines, including veterinary medicines, can continue to flow to Northern Ireland. Work is ongoing across government to prepare for the end of the transition period to which my noble friend referred, and we will publish further guidance for industry on moving medicines to Northern Ireland in the forthcoming period.

Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick Portrait Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Non-Afl) [V]
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My Lords, first, perhaps I may press the Minister further on where these European officials will be accommodated to do their work at the ports. Secondly, could the trader assistance scheme be extended to independent retailers, many of whom are small supermarket owners? Can further assistance be provided to retailers in respect of the export declarations? Some six months down the road, that could cause major problems for them, to the point where they might be out of business.

Lord True Portrait Lord True (Con)
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My Lords, I can certainly assure the noble Baroness on the question of smaller suppliers. I was trying to look it up quickly, but one has so little time; I think it is paragraph 33 of the protocol statement that refers to the fact that the Government will certainly not discriminate against smaller suppliers. So far as the office is concerned, I responded to that in my first answer. We have always been clear that it would not be acceptable for the EU to establish some kind of mini embassy in Northern Ireland, which is what some in the EU had suggested. The protocol provides for EU officials to be permitted to fulfil the roles allowed under the protocol. Of course, we will not bar the EU from renting office space or accommodation for its staff if it wishes—but there will be no EU flags flying above a brass-plated embassy entrance in Belfast.

Covid-19: Public Health Information

Lord True Excerpts
Tuesday 8th December 2020

(3 years, 3 months ago)

Lords Chamber
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Baroness Lawrence of Clarendon Portrait Baroness Lawrence of Clarendon
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To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have to review public health information on the COVID-19 pandemic to ensure that any (1) linguistic, (2) cultural, and (3) digital issues with such information are addressed.

Lord True Portrait The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Lord True) (Con)
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My Lords, the Government provide clear public health information about Covid-19 through a wide range of channels and formats. To ensure the widest reach possible, the Government translate information into multiple languages and formats, including videos, animations and infographics. Information is provided free of charge online, in local and national press, on television and radio, and via the free NHS app and public advertising. They provide guidance in BSL, Braille, large-print and easy-read formats.

Baroness Lawrence of Clarendon Portrait Baroness Lawrence of Clarendon (Lab)
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Do Her Majesty’s Government agree that black, Asian and minority communities across the country have been overexposed, underprotected, stigmatised and overlooked during the Covid-19 pandemic? We also know that, for some, language barriers played a part in communication. What special measures do the Government propose to introduce in order to reduce the vulnerability of such communities, especially over the immediate winter months, and where are they in the rollout of the vaccine?

Lord True Portrait Lord True (Con)
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My Lords, there is a large packet of questions there. I will obviously try to provide answers to some of them, but I cannot provide answers to all of them. The Government certainly recognise the priority attached to the groups for whom the noble Baroness so rightly and strongly speaks. Our strategy ensures that our audience receives bespoke Covid communications. Our partnership includes 47 BME publications, and core market materials are translated into community languages on request. The Government are overseeing BME audience-focused communications and engagement as part of specific campaigns.

Lord Clark of Windermere Portrait Lord Clark of Windermere (Lab) [V]
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My Lords, will the Government publish an equalities plan to ensure that there is the correct infrastructure across the country so that no community is left behind in the rollout of the vaccine? We already know that poorer areas have fewer GPs, so additional facilities need to be in place to ensure that these areas are not left behind in the rollout.

Lord True Portrait Lord True (Con)
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My Lords, I am sure that the noble Lord will welcome the fact that this country is leading the world in the availability of vaccines. We have a programme, for which the set of priorities has been published, to distribute that vaccine broadly and widely, without fear or favour, to any group within this country.

Baroness Uddin Portrait Baroness Uddin (Non-Afl)
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My Lords, the Minister will be aware that government-appointed agencies have allocated a small amount of adverts and health information to be disseminated by small satellite and radio channels. Given that the Government have been fully cognisant of the enormity of the impact of social, economic, digital and health divides in our nation among some communities, and with Covid’s detrimental toll on specifically the Bangladeshi communities—among other minority communities, as mentioned by the noble Baroness, Lady Lawrence—what steps are the Minister and his colleagues taking to review some of these materials and to intensify the frequency? Will he agree to meet with me and some of the experts to discuss their communications and review some of the materials and the forward strategy?

Lord True Portrait Lord True (Con)
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My Lords, I am sure that the Government—whether it is me or my colleagues who are specifically leading—are always happy to engage with the noble Baroness or anyone else who speaks for the communities concerned. I believe that the diversity and inclusion team within the Cabinet Office, for which I can answer, has allowed for better co-ordination of cross-government efforts to improve accessibility and we will continue to work on that.

Lord Flight Portrait Lord Flight (Con)
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My Lords, clearly there needs to be a professional review of the Covid-19 pandemic in due course to learn for the future how to better contain pandemics. Why, however, does the noble Baroness, Lady Lawrence, limit the public health review to linguistic, cultural and digital issues? Is not the priority how to contain pandemics before they become national and materially damaging to economies?

Lord True Portrait Lord True (Con)
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My Lords, it is, of course, highly desirable to contain any pandemic or any threat to the welfare of our citizens. We have to deal with the situation that arises; I believe that the Government have sought to deal with it energetically. We certainly have said that we will consider the lessons learned from this pandemic.

Baroness Jolly Portrait Baroness Jolly (LD) [V]
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My Lords, this morning I looked at the English NHS website and could not find Covid-19 information in languages other than English. I then looked at the NHS Scotland site, which had information in 12 languages, including British Sign Language. Given that this information can save lives, when do the Government anticipate making Covid-19 online information available to those living and working in England and are more comfortable reading information in their own language?

Lord True Portrait Lord True (Con)
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My Lords, I will refer the noble Baroness’s comments about what is available on the NHS website to those responsible. The Government have enabled at least 22 languages to be accessible for Covid publicity.

Baroness Warsi Portrait Baroness Warsi (Con) [V]
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My Lords, in the report Beyond the Data: Understanding the Impact of COVID-19 on BAME Groups, published by Public Health England in June this year, a number of recommendations were made. Can the Minister explain how many of the recommendations have been implemented six months on and what the impact has been on the number of people contracting Covid and the number of Covid deaths in BAME communities?

Lord True Portrait Lord True (Con)
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My Lords, there were a wide range of responses; my noble friend is quite right to say that the report was important. Following on, more than 95% of front-line NHS workers from ethnic minority backgrounds have had a risk assessment and agreed mitigating actions. BEIS issued revised guidance to employers in July and September highlighting the findings of the review and explaining how to make workplaces Covid-secure. Some £4.3 million has been provided to fund new research projects relating to Covid and ethnicity.

Baroness Finlay of Llandaff Portrait Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (CB) [V]
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My Lords, I declare that I chair the National Mental Capacity Forum. Will the Government collate all resources available into an online library? This should include resources produced by them and all relevant charities, such as Books Beyond Words, to link easy-to-read pictorial guides and signing videos covering Covid-19 regulations, testing and vaccination to support those with learning difficulties and cognitive impairments, including people with dementia or literacy difficulties. They might find that a resource produced by a different organisation is particularly helpful to their personal situation and would help them understand the pandemic-control measures that are required nationally.

Lord True Portrait Lord True (Con)
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My Lords, I endorse the need to reach all vulnerable groups. I take the noble Baroness’s suggestion seriously and will ask colleagues to reflect on it.

Baroness Smith of Basildon Portrait Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
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My Lords, we were all delighted to see the news this morning that 90 year- old Margaret Keenan got the first vaccination from nurse May Parsons. However, can I take the Minister back to two points? First, he said that the information was available in many languages and different formats; yet, as the noble Baroness, Lady Jolly, has pointed out, that is not available on the NHS website. I know that he would never want to—even inadvertently—mislead the House, so will he check with his department and report back to the House on how that information is available? I am sure that it is in everyone’s interest that it is as widely available as possible.

Secondly, what are the Government doing to combat the anti-vaccination messages online? There has to be some action taken against social media firms. When Margaret Keenan and others come forward to show how important it is that they are taking the vaccine, it is very sad, disappointing and worrying if no action is taken against social media when they try to deny people the protection offered by the vaccine.

Lord True Portrait Lord True (Con)
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My Lords, I would never wish to mislead the House; I hope that Hansard will reflect that I said that I would take back to colleagues the point about the NHS. The point that I made about languages is broader. I totally agree with the noble Baroness that vaccine disinformation, spread unchecked, could cost lives. We take the issue seriously: we have secured a commitment from Facebook, Twitter and Google to tackle it by not profiting from this material and by responding to flagged comment more swiftly.

Lord Scriven Portrait Lord Scriven (LD)
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My Lords, 10% of the adult population in the UK are not internet users. What provision have the Government made for these 5.3 million people to have parity of access to Covid-19 information services? How are the Government measuring whether these are effective?

Lord True Portrait Lord True (Con)
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My Lords, the noble Lord makes an important point. In terms of reaching all vulnerable groups, those without access to the internet are important. This is taken into consideration. I can assure the noble Lord that the performance of the Covid campaign is reviewed in detail twice a week between the centre and agencies, but I will underline the significance of the specific point he raised.

Lord Fowler Portrait The Lord Speaker (Lord Fowler)
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My Lords, the time allowed for this Question has elapsed. We now come to the third Oral Question.

UK-EU Future Relationship Negotiations and Transition Period

Lord True Excerpts
Tuesday 8th December 2020

(3 years, 3 months ago)

Lords Chamber
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Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town Portrait Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)
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My Lords, the NFU, Toyota, traders, patients, ports, shippers and, indeed, the national interest are all crying out for a deal; so, in effect, are the OBR’s analysis and the Government’s own reasonable worst-case scenario planning. In the light of this, does the Minister agree with Tobias Ellwood that it would be

“an abject failure of statecraft … to leave the EU without a deal”?—[Official Report, Commons, 7/12/20; col. 546.]

Lord True Portrait The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Lord True) (Con)
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My Lords, we are all working to get a deal but the only deal that is possible is one that is compatible with our sovereignty and takes back control of our laws, trade and waters. Although an agreement is preferable, we are prepared to leave on so-called Australia-style terms. People and businesses must prepare for the changes that coming on 31 December, most of which relate to our departure from the EU single market and customs union, not the outcome of the talks.

Lord Wallace of Saltaire Portrait Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD) [V]
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My Lords, references to Australia and Canada deny the geography, which is that we must retain close relations across the board with our neighbours whether we are in the EU or outside it. Does the Minister have a response to the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Hague, in yesterday’s Daily Telegraph? He said that no deal with our European neighbours would

“create the biggest crisis in our relations for more than a century.”

Lord True Portrait Lord True (Con)
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I repeat: we are seeking a deal. As the Prime Minister said a few minutes ago, hope springs eternal. There are significant differences. I do not agree that there would be a crisis that could not be surmounted by the British people.

Lord Lilley Portrait Lord Lilley (Con)
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Will my noble friend ignore the pleas of those who want us to cave in and accept every demand of the European Union? Does he recall that Canada is even closer to the United States than we are to Europe? It has a perfectly normal trade agreement with the United States that does not require it to accept American laws and rules or give America its fish. Why should we be any different vis-à-vis the European Union from Canada vis-à-vis the United States?

Lord True Portrait Lord True (Con)
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My Lords, my noble friend makes a profound geographical point. I agree with him.

Viscount Waverley Portrait Viscount Waverley (CB) [V]
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My Lords, with Covid having changed the context of the negotiations fundamentally, and given that any tariffs and disruption will add uncertainty to the UK, the EU and the wider international economy, would it not be sensible to support the most affected communities by presenting alongside any agreement or in the event of a no-deal outcome a realistic action plan that would benefit the economy at large, including by protecting services, manufacturing, fishing, jobs and new business opportunities?

Lord True Portrait Lord True (Con)
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My Lords, the continuing Covid emergency is obviously a problem, although I am sure that the noble Viscount will join me in welcoming the wonderful news of the first vaccination happening today. We continue to keep the impact of coronavirus on the delivery of the transition programme, as well as the potential for disruption, under review. We are considering, as we always do, what mitigations may be needed as the situation evolves.

Baroness Armstrong of Hill Top Portrait Baroness Armstrong of Hill Top (Lab) [V]
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My Lords, it is clear that, in any trade deal, there must be some compromise on sovereignty. The Government need to be clear with us where they are prepared to compromise. I hope that the Minister will press on the Prime Minister the importance of those regions where the economy relies on manufacturing. The north-east recovered from the closure of its basic industries—mining, steelworks and shipyards—by developing manufacturing, much of which has thrived through exports to the EU. It makes up a higher proportion of the economy in the north-east than it does anywhere else in this country. Companies do not know the rules or the price structure that they will have to work from in less than a month. Even at this late stage, can the Minister assure us that they are not forgotten and that manufacturing companies in the north-east will be able to continue to trade with the EU without massively increased bureaucracy or, indeed, increased costs that will drive them out of business?

Lord True Portrait Lord True (Con)
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My Lords, I underline totally the importance of a manufacturing sector to this country. It is absolutely central to this Government’s strategy and policy of levelling up. So far as the negotiations are concerned, a huge amount of progress has been made but the UK’s position has been absolutely clear from the outset. A negotiation needs each of the two partners to understand the position of the other.

Baroness Noakes Portrait Baroness Noakes (Con)
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My Lords, is my noble friend the Minister as surprised as I am that none of the noble Lords who has spoken from the Benches opposite has acknowledged, let alone praised, the amazing commitment of my noble friend Lord Frost as he has valiantly sought to negotiate a deal in the UK’s interests? Will the Minister join me in expressing this House’s thanks for my noble friend Lord Frost’s outstanding public service during the negotiations?

Lord True Portrait Lord True (Con)
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My Lords, I profoundly agree with what my noble friend Lady Noakes says. It has been an outstanding programme of public service from my noble friend Lord Frost and his team. Let us hope that what we all seek is crowned with success.

Lord Dodds of Duncairn Portrait Lord Dodds of Duncairn (DUP)
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In wishing the Government well in their negotiations to achieve a free trade deal that is in everybody’s interest, can the Minister update us on the joint committee’s parallel discussions about the Northern Ireland protocol? As he knows, businesses in Northern Ireland have written a joint letter asking for an adjustment period, but can he confirm that, in all circumstances, free and unfettered trade from Great Britain to Northern Ireland—and vice versa—will be guaranteed?

Lord True Portrait Lord True (Con)
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My Lords, I am happy to underline the importance of unfettered access; I hope that all Members of this House will come round to recognising that. Talks have been going on in the joint committee, as the noble Lord knows. The atmosphere has been good; I hope that we will learn more in due course.

Lord Triesman Portrait Lord Triesman (Lab) [V]
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My Lords, the Minister is obviously very confident that, even without a deal, we will all prosper. I must say, that confidence is not shared by the academic community, which is asking questions that I will put directly to him. Can the Government assure the academic community that it will be an associate to the Horizon Europe programme, which is vital for academic connections and will potentially overcome the damage that has already been done to contracts negotiated over the recent months? Also, will the Government achieve an adequacy agreement so that research data transfer will take place, rather than becoming very much harder? These issues are fundamental to the interests of the United Kingdom.

Lord True Portrait Lord True (Con)
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As the noble Lord says, our outstanding academic sector and the adequacy of data are of course extraordinarily important. As he knows, negotiations are continuing, and we must await the outcome.

Lord Lansley Portrait Lord Lansley (Con) [V]
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My Lords, does my noble friend agree that the majority of people have not entered into negotiations with the objective of reducing our standards—on the environment, on labour rights or in other areas? That should be of some assurance to our European colleagues. Will he also confirm that, as an independent country, we cannot agree to take rules from the EU in future? We should negotiate our standards and they should accept that.

Lord True Portrait Lord True (Con)
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I agree with my noble friend’s final remarks. The UK’s reputation for quality, safety and performance is what drives the demand for UK goods. The Government have no intention of harming this reputation.

Lord Dobbs Portrait Lord Dobbs (Con) [V]
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My Lords, we voted for Brexit and for a return of fundamental rights. This is a divorce: we hope it is friendly, but it is a divorce none the less. Does my noble friend agree that it is not an option for the EU to go on demanding conjugal rights, even after the divorce is done? What is it about democracy that some members of the EU—and possibly some Members of this House—simply do not get?

Lord True Portrait Lord True (Con)
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I will not follow my noble friend in a discussion of conjugal rights; maybe he is writing the latest episode of his current script. I say yes, yes and yes to him. Of course we wish for co-operation with our European friends but, as the Government have repeatedly underlined, they must display an understanding of our wish to make our own laws and control our own borders. That was the democratic resolve of the British people—not once, but twice.

Summit of Democratic Governments

Lord True Excerpts
Monday 30th November 2020

(3 years, 4 months ago)

Lords Chamber
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Baroness D'Souza Portrait Baroness D'Souza
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To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the case for convening a summit of the governments of the 10 leading democracies in spring 2021.

Lord True Portrait The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Lord True) (Con)
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My Lords, our G7 presidency will convene a number of democratic nations next year, building on the G7’s shared values as democratic and open societies. This is part of a year of UK international leadership. The Government do not currently plan to convene an additional summit of 10 democracies in spring 2021.

Baroness D'Souza Portrait Baroness D'Souza (CB)
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I thank the noble Lord for his Answer. It is likely that global Britain will be in want of an international role following the end of the transition period. The UK still has considerable convening power, as shown by the recent joint letter signed by the UK, Canada and Australia on events in Hong Kong. Surely a transatlantic and transpacific democratic alliance could have a synergistic effect in tackling major problems such as climate change, building 5G, security, corruption and human rights. This would aim to be not an “anti” group, but rather a co-operating bloc to deal with specific issues and become something positioned between liberal naivety and the Cold War. Will the Government consider establishing an informal but influential network of democracies such as the G7, together with India, South Korea and Australia, to present a common front in upholding the rule of law?

Lord True Portrait Lord True (Con)
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My Lords, of course I agree with the sentiment of the noble Baroness. As she says, the UK works as part of a vast range of different multinational organisations, from the G7 and G20 to the Commonwealth, NATO and dozens of others. The membership of each group individually is limited, but taken collectively they mean that the UK partners with a great number of countries in one format or another. That will continue to be the philosophy guiding us forward

Baroness Fall Portrait Baroness Fall (Con) [V]
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My Lords, we welcome signals from President-elect Biden that America will now return to a more multilateral approach to solving the world’s problems and his plan to bring together like-minded democracies to promote values, including standing up for human rights across the world. As we look to take on the leadership of the G7 next year and attend the summit, could the Minister outline what tools the Government intend to deploy to put words into action through sanctions, soft power or even offering safe havens, and whether they will seek multinational support in doing so?

Lord True Portrait Lord True (Con)
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My Lords, the UK Government share the aspiration of other leading democratic Governments to extend the benefits of democratic systems. As I said in answer to a question on Friday, I believe, my right honourable friend the Prime Minister will announce the specific details of G7 initiatives shortly.

Lord Singh of Wimbledon Portrait Lord Singh of Wimbledon (CB) [V]
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My Lords, can the Minister tell us why India, currently in the news for trying to make Punjab farmers serfs on their own land, is suggested as one of the 10 leading democracies? Why are we turning a blind eye to the Modi Government’s discriminatory laws making millions of Muslims second-class citizens and others stateless, their brutal suppression in Kashmir, and the expulsion of Amnesty International for drawing attention to their widespread abuse of human rights? Does the Minister agree that a country which ignores human rights in its pandering to majority prejudice cannot be called a democracy?

Lord True Portrait Lord True (Con)
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My Lords, as a Cabinet Office Minister answering a relatively narrow question, I will not make a broad denunciation of any nation. Our values are democratic; they are very widely shared and practised across the world. We wish to sustain that.

Lord Anderson of Swansea Portrait Lord Anderson of Swansea (Lab)
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My Lords, as the noble Lord, Lord Singh, just said, it would be difficult to decide whom to include and exclude in any top 10 for a global democracy summit. Does the Minister agree that there may be questions about the eligibility of any country which breaks a promise of aid to the world’s poorest and threatens to breach international law?

Lord True Portrait Lord True (Con)
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No, I do not agree with either of the final points. I answered a question on this last week. The UK remains the second-largest donor of foreign aid in the G7, spending £10,000 million in the planned programme next year in assistance to the world’s poorest countries. On the question of 10 nations, the Government did not bring this concept before the House today. I have expressed our view that we wish to reach out to all the world’s leading democracies in various fora.

Baroness Northover Portrait Baroness Northover (LD)
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My Lords, is the Minister aware that when China introduced the anti-democratic national security law into Hong Kong, very few EU countries, and none in Asia, Latin America or Africa, supported the UK at the United Nations? How do the Government propose to ensure that the UK’s global influence is not diminished by leaving the EU?

Lord True Portrait Lord True (Con)
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My Lords, I said in reply to an earlier question that the United Kingdom sits in a range of vital and important multinational organisations, including the Commonwealth and NATO. We will remain there, and I have no doubt that the United Kingdom is very widely respected in all those fora.

Lord Flight Portrait Lord Flight (Con)
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My Lords, might it be worth while to convene a summit to review the handling of the Covid-19 pandemic when it has become safe to do so? How might the leading democracies work together to contain the spread of such pandemics?

Lord True Portrait Lord True (Con)
- Hansard - -

My Lords, the UK has worked closely with international partners throughout the pandemic, from the development of vaccines to supporting vulnerable countries, and we will continue to do so. As I have outlined, the UK is preparing an ambitious and—we hope—unifying G7 agenda which will promote international leadership and collaboration as we recover from Covid-19. The UK also co-sponsored the resolution adopted by the World Health Assembly in May, which included agreement for an independent review.

Lord Browne of Ladyton Portrait Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab) [V]
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, the D10, like President-elect Biden’s proposed summit for democracy, will be an assembly of countries with diverse regimes. This century the US has twice elected a President who lost the popular vote; Narendra Modi’s India is turning its Muslim minority into second-class citizens; the EU includes Hungary, led by Viktor Orbán, who is creating an illiberal democracy; and we have a Government legislating deliberately to break international law and proposing to stop citizens going to court to enforce their rights against their Government. Exactly what model for democracy are we holding up to the rest of the world in this proposal?

Lord True Portrait Lord True (Con)
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My Lords, I need make no apology for the United Kingdom’s record of parliamentary democracy over generations.

Viscount Waverley Portrait Viscount Waverley (CB) [V]
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My Lords, does the Minister agree that democratic models are not one size fits all, but that the objective can be summarised as being one of accountability to the people? With the days of autocracy numbered in the short term, I hope, and with the best chance of succeeding with democratic principles being enlightened government heads being supported from the bottom up and over a period of time with training, would the Government consider that aspiring nations in particular—some of which have been exposed to democracy for a comparably short period—are at the very least offered observer status at any future summit, with emphasis on the participation of young people and women, whence change can ultimately emanate?

Lord True Portrait Lord True (Con)
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My Lords, I cannot anticipate decisions about observers or people who might be invited to the G7 summit—that decision will be taken in due course. So far as girls’ education is concerned, that is something which we will work on in co-hosting the Global Partnership for Education with Kenya in June.

Lord Liddle Portrait Lord Liddle (Lab) [V]
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My Lords, the Minister appears to be putting his emphasis on the G7 and rather dismissing President-elect Biden’s interest in calling a summit of democracies. Have I got that wrong?

Lord True Portrait Lord True (Con)
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My Lords, I have not mentioned President-elect Biden and his initiative on democracies—the noble Lord puts words that were never in my mouth. The Government will support any initiative from whatever quarter, including the President-elect, to promote democracy in the world.

Lord Fowler Portrait The Lord Speaker (Lord Fowler)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, the time allowed for this Question has elapsed, and that finishes Question Time.

European Union Withdrawal (Consequential Modifications) (EU Exit) Regulations 2020

Lord True Excerpts
Monday 30th November 2020

(3 years, 4 months ago)

Grand Committee
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Moved by
Lord True Portrait Lord True
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That the Grand Committee do consider the European Union Withdrawal (Consequential Modifications) (EU Exit) Regulations 2020.

Lord True Portrait The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Lord True) (Con)
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My Lords, the Government have already undertaken extensive work to provide for a functioning domestic statute book by 31 December. Ahead of our exit from the EU on 31 January, the Government made a significant amount of exit-related legislation, including more than 630 statutory instruments. The Government continue to deliver the secondary legislation required to ensure a functioning statute book at the end of the transition period, so we are able to seize the opportunities of being an independent sovereign nation.

This instrument is a clear example of that. It makes various consequential amendments and repeals in respect of retained EU law, relevant separation agreement law and other EU-derived domestic legislation. I will explain this in further detail in a moment, but in short, it is highly technical and does not implement any new policy. It will ensure that the UK statute book works coherently and effectively following the end of the transition period.

The instrument was laid by my right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster in exercise of temporary powers provided for in the EU withdrawal Act 2018 and the EU withdrawal agreement Act 2020. These powers allow Ministers to make provisions that they consider appropriate in consequence of those Acts. These are standard consequential powers that are commonplace in legislation. Such powers are inherently limited, their main expected use being for matters of a technical nature. This instrument is no exception.

The Government have already made several exit-related consequential statutory instruments in recent years, which were needed as a result of the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018. However, since those instruments were made, we have left the EU with a deal—the withdrawal agreement—and entered the transition period. The statutory instrument we are discussing today includes provisions required as a result of the withdrawal agreement and the legislation that implemented it: the European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Act 2020.

The main changes arising from the European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Act 2020 are: it introduces the transition period and delays the commencement of exit-related statutory instruments until the implementation period completion day; it provides that retained EU law comes into effect on IP completion day instead of exit day; and it establishes relevant separation agreement law. In the light of the introduction of relevant separation agreement law, the instrument clarifies how references in UK legislation to EU instruments are to be interpreted after IP completion day. This includes how references to EU instruments that form part of relevant separation agreement law should be read.

The amendments made to the 2018 Act by the implementation of the withdrawal agreement mean that it is possible for EU instruments to form part of retained EU law for some purposes and have effect as relevant separation agreement law for other purposes. This means that after IP completion day, references to EU instruments in domestic legislation can have a dual meaning. This instrument makes interpretation provisions to remove uncertainty about which version of an EU instrument applies: the retained version or the version applied by the withdrawal agreement. This ensures that the correct interpretation of the EU instrument applies following the end of the transition period and removes room for confusion or uncertainty.

At this point, I draw your Lordships’ attention to the fact that, although the negative procedure could have been used for making this instrument under the consequential powers, we are following the affirmative procedure. This is to provide the opportunity for parliamentary debate.

To make these interpretive provisions, the instrument makes minor technical amendments to primary legislation, including the 2018 Act, the Interpretation Act 1978 and the latter’s devolved equivalents: the Legislation (Wales) Act 2019, the Interpretation Act (Northern Ireland) 1954 and the Interpretation and Legislation Reform (Scotland) Act 2010. Although the Government are not required to seek consent from, or consult with, the devolved Administrations on the provisions included in this instrument, there was extensive engagement at official level prior to the laying of this instrument to make sure that it worked effectively for the devolved legislatures. I note our gratitude to the devolved Administrations for their constructive collaboration on both this instrument and the wider body of readiness secondary legislation that is needed by the end of the year.

The instrument also makes technical repeals to redundant provisions within primary legislation arising from the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018, primarily due to the fact that it repealed the European Communities Act 1972. The 2018 Act provided for the repeal of the amended provisions of the 1972 Act, but not the amending provisions that lie behind them. As a consequence of those repeals, the amending provisions are redundant. Without these regulations, this legislation would continue to sit meaninglessly on our statute book; repealing it ensures that the statute book remains clear and effective.

As well as repealing redundant legislation, this instrument also makes consequential amendments to the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 (Consequential Modifications and Repeals and Revocations) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019 to reflect the fact that they come into effect on IP completion day rather than exit day, and ensure that they operate effectively in the light of this.

I hope that noble Lords therefore agree that these draft regulations perform a small but worthwhile role in our preparations for the end of the transition period and demonstrate the Government’s commitment to ensuring certainty and clarity in the UK’s statute book. I beg to move.

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Lord True Portrait Lord True (Con)
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Well, my Lords, I am loath to speak for any lawyer, let alone every lawyer in the land. I hope this SI proves to be the clarifying instrument that we hope it is.

I was asked a number of questions, not all of which, as was gracefully conceded, may be answerable on the spot. Regarding the last question, about the Lugano framework, I am certainly not advised on that currently and will have to respond.

On the question of “gloss”, it is a term used frequently by parliamentary counsel meaning “a modification to how legislation is read”. In terms of the gloss as used in the report referred to, the interpretive glosses provided by this instrument provide general interpretive rules for how cross-references to EU instruments should be read. This means that interpretive provision does not need to be provided in other legislation because it is already provided by these glosses and so ensures consistency.

I was asked whether the SI has financial implications. It does not.

I was asked about the consequence of importing EU retained law into domestic law. As a result of the introduction of relevant separation agreement law, interpretive provision needs to be made so that it is clear how references to EU instruments that form part of relevant separation agreement law are to be read. Essentially, references to EU instruments that form part of relevant separation agreement law are to be read as they are applied by the withdrawal agreement. Interpretive provision for retained EU law has already been provided. This SI makes amendments to these provisions to ensure that the interpretive provisions for relevant separation agreement law and retained EU law work together. I hope that that answers the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford. If not, I will ask my officials to see whether any further information needs to be added.

I was asked about consultation. Obviously, I said in my opening speech that it is an accepted principle in terms of these consequential amendments that it is possible for secondary legislation to amend primary legislation in a number of confined technical cases such as this. I do not have the full details on consultation with all the devolved Administrations although I am assured that they took place.

Obviously, the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 gives the United Kingdom Government the power to make statutory changes to correct deficiencies in the statute book that arise as a result of the UK leaving the EU. Ministers can use those powers in relation to devolved matters but have committed not to do so normally without the agreement of the relevant DAs. These commitments do not extend to all powers in the EUWA and the withdrawal agreement Act. There are the specific powers that I have just referred to, under which secondary legislation can be made in devolved areas without consent from or consulting with DA Ministers where those changes are technical in nature.

However, in relation, for example, to the case of Wales and in fact more generally, I understand that legal officials in my department consulted with the devolved authorities’ lawyers and their respective parliamentary counsel throughout the drafting process. Initial correspondence was sent on 6 August, with the first draft of the statutory instruments shared on 19 August, and the final draft of the SI takes into account the devolved authorities’ comments and drafting suggestions. Policy officials shared details of the statutory instrument on 25 September, with a final draft of the SI and Explanatory Memorandum shared on 30 September. Therefore that process of engagement has gone on for some time.

I was asked—although this is slightly wide of the statutory instrument—about the current state of negotiations. Intensive negotiations with the EU are ongoing this week. They have resumed in person, and intensive negotiations are taking place in person in London as well as virtually via Webex. The teams are continuing to work very hard and are committed to meeting on a daily basis.

The familiar difficult issues remain. Although there has been some progress across many areas, wide divergences remain on fisheries and the level playing field. We will not abandon our core principles to reach a deal. While an agreement is preferable, we are prepared to leave on Australia-style terms if we cannot find suitable compromises. Either way, as the Prime Minister has made clear, people and businesses must prepare for the changes coming on 31 December, most of which will happen whether there is a deal or not. Obviously, this SI is part of the preparations for the transition.

I was asked about recourse to the courts in the event of any disagreements in relation to EU law and who is arbiter. At the end of the transition period, it is true that there may be a number of cases related to infringements that have not yet been resolved. Infringements arising during the transition period may be brought before the CJEU for up to four years following the end of the transition period.

I was asked whether we would return in future to repeal further legislation under the EU withdrawal legislation. It is an optimistic statement to have to make, and I shall be guarded in making it. I simply say to your Lordships and advise that we are confident, currently, that all critical legislation will be in force by the end of the transition period, ensuring that the statute book is functional.

A couple of other points were made by my noble friend Lady McIntosh of Pickering. I believe that I picked up most of her points; if not, we will look and see whether we can make good. Governments always like to try to make good, hence this statutory instrument before your Lordships.

I shall reply outside on the Lugano framework, as I have undertaken. I am not going to follow further down the line of political remarks. It is true that the Government, as the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, said, do not care for the idea of a lasting role for the European Court of Justice, which was confirmed by the British people in both the referendum and the election. Here we are dealing with important, practical and technical legislation, and I am grateful for all the extreme interest in the matter and will endeavour to ensure that any unanswered questions are answered.

With that, I hope that this instrument can be approved so that we can ensure that the statute book works coherently and effectively following the end of the transition period.

Motion agreed.

Definition of Qualifying Northern Ireland Goods (EU Exit) Regulations 2020

Lord True Excerpts
Monday 30th November 2020

(3 years, 4 months ago)

Grand Committee
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Moved by
Lord True Portrait Lord True
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That the Grand Committee do consider the Definition of Qualifying Northern Ireland Goods (EU Exit) Regulations 2020.

Relevant document: 31st Report from the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee (special attention drawn to the instrument)

Lord True Portrait The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Lord True) (Con)
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My Lords, the statutory instrument that we are discussing concerns the establishment of a definition of “qualifying Northern Ireland goods”, or QNIGs, as it says here in brackets; people come up with an acronym for everything these days. That definition is established for the purposes of delivering unfettered access for Northern Ireland goods moving to the rest of the UK market from the end of the transition period. The statutory instrument should be seen in its wider context of this Government’s clear commitment to deliver unfettered access for Northern Ireland goods to the rest of the UK market, and to guarantee this in legislation by the end of this year. This commitment was made in both the 2019 Conservative manifesto and the New Decade, New Approach deal, which restored power-sharing in Northern Ireland. This instrument is fundamental to delivering on that commitment.

Unfettered access is based on several fundamental tenets: first, that there will be no customs and regulatory checks and processes for qualifying Northern Ireland goods moving from Northern Ireland to Great Britain; secondly, that there will be no additional authorisations or approvals required for placing those goods on the market in the rest of the UK; and, finally, that those goods can continue to be sold throughout the UK market.

We intend for the United Kingdom Internal Market Bill to put the building blocks in place for unfettered access for the long term. The measures that we propose in that Bill will enshrine in primary legislation that qualifying Northern Ireland goods will benefit from mutual recognition—enabling goods to continue to be placed on the whole UK market, even where the protocol applies different rules in Northern Ireland—and prohibit new checks and controls as goods move from Northern Ireland to the rest of the United Kingdom.

These are significant and robust protections. They will be subject only to the most limited possible exceptions, such as to ensure that the UK can comply with its international obligations, for example regarding endangered species movements. Although this House regrettably removed those important protections in its consideration of the Bill in Committee, the Government will ensure that these measures are reinserted to provide the certainty that the Northern Ireland Executive and Northern Ireland businesses have called for.

All these elements flow from there being a definition in law of what are the qualifying Northern Ireland goods that benefit from unfettered access. This is the purpose of this statutory instrument.

It is important to be clear that the policy of unfettered access will be given effect in two phases. The first phase is focused on avoiding disruption and maintaining continuity for the first half of next year, in line with the broader approach that we are taking for GB-EU movements. That is what this instrument is concerned with. In order to avoid any disruption, it takes a necessarily broad-based approach, outlining that goods will qualify where they are in free circulation in Northern Ireland, on the basis that they are not under customs supervision—excepting any supervision arising from the good being taken out of Northern Ireland or the EU—and where they are a good that has undergone processing operations in Northern Ireland under the inward processing procedure and incorporates inputs only from Great Britain, or was in free circulation in Northern Ireland.

Those are some quite technical descriptions, but in practice they will mean no change to how Northern Ireland businesses move goods directly to the rest of the UK from 1 January 2021 compared with now. This is an important first step to make sure that Northern Ireland traders can continue to move their goods in an unfettered way from the end of the transition period, meeting the Government’s clear commitment under the New Decade, New Approach deal. Although this first phase will be comparatively brief, it is none the less important to guard against the possibility that its provisions are abused. That is why the phase one approach will be accompanied by anti-avoidance measures to be contained in legislation to be brought forward by colleagues in the Treasury in due course to enable us to take action in those cases.

That will be the first phase of the regime. We recognise that this is only a bridge to the more durable and permanent arrangements in phase two, which will focus the benefits of unfettered access solely and exclusively on Northern Ireland businesses. This will ensure that they have a competitive advantage over other traders on the island of Ireland and will ensure that goods moving from Ireland or the EU are subject to full third-country checks and controls. That regime, which will take effect in the course of 2021, is being finalised at pace, working with Northern Ireland business and the Northern Ireland Executive. We are also working with the devolved Administrations more broadly on its operational implications. We will provide further details on the specific approach and its timing as soon as possible. In the meantime, we consider that it is right to proceed in a pragmatic way that maintains continuity for business, which our phased approach would do. Should both Houses approve this instrument, it will enable us to bring forward clear guidance for businesses to ensure that they are ready for the end of the transition period.

I would again like to assure Members of the Committee that this instrument is part of our clear and unequivocal commitment to unfettered access, ensuring that businesses can continue to trade as they do now and protecting Northern Ireland’s place in the UK internal market. Those are and will remain our overriding priorities as we take forward the important work here in the weeks ahead. I commend the regulations to the Committee.

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Lord True Portrait Lord True (Con)
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The fundamental response to the noble Baroness is that Northern Ireland by the will of its people is an integral part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Therefore it behoves the United Kingdom Government to secure that position, and we will seek to do so. I would be surprised if the other devolved Administrations actually wished or intended to place obstacles in the way of the movement of goods from Northern Ireland. I would be astonished to think that that would be the political intent or desire of any Government within these islands.

I repeat that this regulation, as the noble Baroness and several other noble Lords have alluded to, and as I said in my opening speech, is part of a programme or set of measures that includes the UKIM Bill. I know what the noble Baroness said—that, if the UKIM Bill returned, attempting to provide a guarantee of unfettered access, she would advise your Lordships simply not to discuss it again but to throw it out. In my humble submission, it is not part of the role of the revising Chamber, which your Lordships’ House is, to simply throw things out that are sent to us by the elected House without even considering them or considering detailed amendments in Committee. To do it once is bad, but to do it again on something as important as unfettered access would be strange.

I was asked a number of questions. We got straight into sausages, which seemed very much a subject of concern. I remember the first time I ever went to Londonderry-Derry, so long ago that Doherty’s sausages were all the rage in those days, and I enjoyed them. I had long experience at university of sausages made in Northern Ireland. To answer the question on definition, which is what this statutory instrument is about, in this first phase, any good such as a sausage in free circulation in Northern Ireland will qualify. We are working closely with Northern Ireland traders and the Executive, as I said, on the second phase definition. That will focus the benefits of unfettered access specifically on NI traders.

I do not know how to stop this phone ringing, but if noble Lords can bear the sound, I will continue. The first-phase approach provides certainty for businesses at the end of the year, which is what they have been asking for.

On circumvention, we are bringing forward anti-avoidance provisions that will deter traders from routing their goods via Northern Ireland to GB. I will come back to this point, which was raised by a number of noble Lords.

I turn to goods that are simply packaged in Northern Ireland, when the product is from the EU. Again, this definition is about providing certainty to NI traders and guaranteeing unfettered access to their largest and most important market at the end of this year. So, in the first phase, these goods will qualify—but we are, as we have discussed, working on the second-phase approach, to be introduced in 2021, which will focus the benefits of unfettered access on Northern Ireland businesses. The noble Lord, Lord Dodds, asked when we will have that further definition. I can say to him that it will be brought forward “very early in 2021”; that is what I am advised.

I was asked whether I could confirm that the approach we have taken is intended to align with the broader phased approach to the EU-GB border. Again, I hope that this will be the case, but I have not had any firm advice on that. The new anti-avoidance measures will come this year via a finance Bill that will be brought forward in the coming weeks.

I turn to enforcement and accept what a number of noble Lords have said: that goods will move. Enforcement mechanisms will be behind-the-border compliance and monitoring, which will in no way disrupt NI-GB trade.

The point about goods routed via the Republic of Ireland to GB from Northern Ireland was made by the noble Lord, Lord Dodds, and others, including the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie. We do recognise that the priority remains having a regime in place that focuses its benefits on Northern Ireland traders and ensures that they enjoy those benefits, however they move their goods, whether directly or via the Republic. So, from 1 January, we will ensure that tariffs will not be due on qualifying goods moving via Ireland. Anyone can move qualifying Northern Ireland goods from Northern Ireland via the Irish Republic to Great Britain without needing to pay customs duties on entry to Great Britain, and goods will not need to be moved under transit for this to be the case. I should note that of course, it is not for the UK Government to say what processes the Irish Government should choose to apply in those circumstances.

I was asked about engagement with the Northern Ireland Executive. We have engaged extensively, including at First Minister and Deputy First Minister level, and they are supportive and understanding of the phased approach. There have also been extensive discussions at official level, and via ministerial engagements such as in JMC (EN) and the quad talks, led by my right honourable friend the Paymaster General.

I was asked how in the agri-food area “Northern Ireland processors” would be defined and what would happen when a GB business moved, say, a carcass from Great Britain to Northern Ireland for deboning and processing under customs supervision, therefore not needing to comply with full import formalities on entry into Northern Ireland, before being returned to Great Britain to be placed on the market there. The product will not be in free circulation in Northern Ireland, so it would not meet the definition in Section 3(1)(a)—but it would clearly be a good that should benefit from unfettered access protections. That is why the second limb of the qualifying Northern Ireland goods definition ensures that these goods are able to return to Great Britain, enjoying unfettered access during that movement.

I was asked about the role of HMRC, which will administer the anti-avoidance provisions and compliance regime, along with Border Force, as the authorities with responsibility in that space. As I have said, this will not involve disruption to NI-GB trade but will be entirely behind-the-border compliance activities. No new infrastructure is required in Northern Ireland to administer unfettered access or the qualifying regime.

I was asked more than once by noble Lords why we are phasing. The first-phase definition, as I sought to explain in my opening remarks, is focused on minimising disruption on 1 January: that is what Northern Ireland traders have asked for. As I have said, the second-phase definition will be brought forward early in 2021 and will focus on the benefits of unfettered access for Northern Ireland traders, in line with their expectations.

The Government have acknowledged, and I have acknowledged, that the process is taking a good time, and noble Lords will know—this has been referred to in our discussion—that negotiations and contacts are still taking place this week in the Joint Committee. We all fervently hope that those discussions will have issue soon, but, clearly, we are seeking to keep Northern Ireland traders and the Northern Ireland Executive alongside, so far as we can.

I repeat the fundamental point that I began with: the undertaking for unfettered access was given by Her Majesty’s Government. It is subscribed to by the European Union, as the noble Lord, Lord Dodds, said, and it is enshrined in the New Decade, New Approach document. Surely, we should all agree. I have heard agreement in this debate on the principle of unfettered access, so I look forward—hopefully—to all noble Lords present lending their support to that commitment in the UKIM Bill when it returns. I commend these regulations.

Motion agreed.

Covid-19: Devolved Administrations

Lord True Excerpts
Friday 27th November 2020

(3 years, 4 months ago)

Lords Chamber
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Lord Morris of Aberavon Portrait Lord Morris of Aberavon (Lab) [V]
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My Lords, I wish to ask a Question of which I have given private notice, on what steps, further to the joint Statement on UK-wide Christmas arrangements by the UK Government and devolved Administrations on Tuesday 24 November, Her Majesty’s Government will take to ensure a common approach to other Covid-19-related matters.

Lord True Portrait The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Lord True) (Con)
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My Lords, the UK Government are committed to working with the devolved Administrations to protect the health of our citizens, communities and economies. We published a Statement on 25 September setting out this shared commitment, and our UK-wide approach to arrangements at Christmas is an example of it working in action. We will continue our substantive ministerial, official and scientific engagement to protect the lives and livelihoods of citizens across Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and England.

Lord Morris of Aberavon Portrait Lord Morris of Aberavon (Lab) [V]
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I am pleased at what, at last, has been achieved by the four Governments. As drafter of the first Welsh devolution Bills, I would always fight for the right of devolved Governments to take their own decisions on devolved matters, but I never contemplated that there would be so many differences on decisions around infections which know no boundaries. Has the apparent stubbornness been in Whitehall, Cardiff, Edinburgh or Belfast?

Lord True Portrait Lord True (Con)
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My Lords, I cast stones at nobody. I agree with the noble and learned Lord that co-operation is always the best route forward and posturing is never helpful. The Christmas alignment arose from a joint meeting at very high level on 2 September, which was followed up by four further high-level conversations. It is an example of co-operation in action.

Baroness Barker Portrait Baroness Barker (LD)
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My Lords, speaking as a Scot, Christmas is a secondary festival to new year for many of us. What steps have been taken to address issues of cross-border policing for the whole of the festive period?

Lord True Portrait Lord True (Con)
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My Lords, as the noble Baroness knows, I am not a line Minister on this specific question, but I will ensure that she is advised on the matter.

Lord Brougham and Vaux Portrait The Deputy Speaker (Lord Brougham and Vaux) (Con)
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The next speaker is the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern. He is not answering, so I call the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Craig of Radley. There is a problem with the sound, so we will come back to the noble Lord. I call the noble Lord, Lord Reid of Cardowan.

Lord Reid of Cardowan Portrait Lord Reid of Cardowan (Lab)
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My Lords, like many in this Chamber, I very much welcome the UK-wide discussions to help us combat Covid. It is always better when we are helping each other. In that context, how much, as a total, have the UK Government distributed in consequentials and Covid-related expenditure to Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland?

Lord True Portrait Lord True (Con)
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My Lords, the noble Lord asks a very important question. I fear I cannot answer with a specific figure, but I will write to the noble Lord and advise others on that matter. As he says, the UK Government have procured vaccines for the whole of the United Kingdom. The Joint Biosecurity Centre, part of NHS Test and Trace, is UK-wide, and the UK Government provide testing capacity to all the devolved Administrations, including operating testing sites across the United Kingdom. Mutual aid and co-operation across and between all four nations has, in our judgment, been a key part in ensuring that PPE gets to where it is needed. I will write on the figures.

Lord Brougham and Vaux Portrait The Deputy Speaker (Lord Brougham and Vaux) (Con)
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I call the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Craig of Radley. There are still problems. I call the noble Lord, Lord McNally.

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Lord McNally Portrait Lord McNally (LD) [V]
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My Lords, I am sure the Minister would agree that optics are important in fighting a campaign. One problem that we face in fighting the Covid epidemic is that quite often the Prime Minister has seemed to be uttering appeals from the imperial Parliament. Should not he take advice from, or the example of, his hero Churchill, who in 1940 who brought in the Opposition and presented a national front? Should not a special COBRA meeting be set up and meet regularly, involving opposition leaders and the leaders of the four nations? That would send a message of national unity that is missing at the moment.

Lord True Portrait Lord True (Con)
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My Lords, again, I do not agree with taking this to my right honourable friend the Prime Minister who leads in taking decisions and is involved in conversations. I think it is more important to stress the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Reid, that there is active, high-level engagement across the Governments and that is securing progress. We believe in devolution, and the devolved Administrations have public health responsibilities. I repeat that co-operation exists and should continue to exist.

Lord Brougham and Vaux Portrait The Deputy Speaker (Lord Brougham and Vaux) (Con)
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I call the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Craig of Radley. The problems continue. I call the noble Lord, Lord Jopling.

Lord Jopling Portrait Lord Jopling (Con) [V]
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My Lords, I want to add to the contribution of the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, about the position of Scotland and the jubilation which surrounds the new year. In the north of England we have over the years been accustomed to a massive migration of Scots going back to Scotland for new year and then coming back to England or elsewhere afterwards. It is essential that the rules that apply to Christmas also apply to the new year so that the Scots can fully enjoy their traditional holiday. Therefore, it is crucial that there is the utmost co-operation between the devolved Administrations, particularly with Scotland, so that jubilation does not increase the level of Covid outbreaks.

Lord True Portrait Lord True (Con)
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My Lords, I said to the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, and I say to my noble friend that, of course, I appreciate the importance of new year, particularly in Scotland, but to many others. I cannot advise the House specifically on this position, as I explained in answer to the earlier question, but I will take away the questions raised and seek further advice for your Lordships.

Baroness Meacher Portrait Baroness Meacher (CB) [V]
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My Lords, the Government and the DAs are right to prioritise children’s schooling. However, this is endangering the lives of those parents who are at exceptional risk from Covid. They are told by the Government to self-isolate, yet have children coming home from school every day, often having been exposed to Covid. I declare my personal interest. Can the Minister work with the DAs to ensure that these parents are at the front of the queue with front-line health workers for the first MHRA-approved vaccine? If not, we can expect excess deaths among these relatively young parents.

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Lord True Portrait Lord True (Con)
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My Lords, the noble Baroness makes a very important point. It is obviously within the wider construct, which is that it is vital that young children secure education at the most formative stage of their lives—I think that there is broad agreement on that. Regarding the very important specific issue that she raised, as she knows, there is constant discussion between the chief medical officers of the four devolved Administrations, and I will ensure that her question is brought to the attention of all those involved.

Baroness Wilcox of Newport Portrait Baroness Wilcox of Newport (Lab) [V]
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My Lords, I am grateful to my noble and learned friend Lord Morris of Aberavon for securing this important Private Notice Question. In recent months, we have seen increasing divergence in the approaches taken across the four nations of the UK. We welcome the recent agreement regarding restrictions over the Christmas period and hope that it represents the beginning of a shift in the Government’s relationships with the devolved Administrations in relation to the pandemic and, indeed, other issues. Can the Minister confirm what, if any, new structures will be put in place to formalise dialogue and data exchange across the four nations as we move into the new year and the next—and, I hope, final—phase in the fight against this awful disease?

Lord True Portrait Lord True (Con)
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My Lords, I repeat what I said before. There is a public health responsibility, which is devolved, and obviously decisions are taken by the devolved Administrations on how they wish to apply and use those powers. As I indicated, a network of co-operation exists: I gave the example of over 20 calls involving my right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster and the senior Ministers involved in the devolved Administrations, and the CMOs meet regularly. Christmas has been a good example, but we must work within the devolved structure and in line with how all those involved choose to operate it.

Lord Wigley Portrait Lord Wigley (PC) [V]
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My Lords, I very much agree that there should be close co-operation between the four Governments on arrangements to facilitate travel across the UK over the Christmas break, but does the Minister accept that the devolved regimes would find this very much easier if the Westminster Government gave them adequate notice of their intentions, to enable timely discussion to take place before final decisions were made? Co-operation is a two-way street. For it to blossom, it must be on the basis of mutual respect, but that has not always been evident from the Prime Minister over the past eight months.

Lord True Portrait Lord True (Con)
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My Lords, I have an arm’s-length brief on meetings, discussions and calls that have taken place at various levels, in addition to the continual engagement at official level. I am glad that noble Lords are pleased with the example of Christmas co-operation, but I think that the best way forward is to throw not stones but co-operation at each other. We have sought a co-ordinated approach wherever possible and where the evidence shows that this will make the response more effective. This co-ordination has taken place in many aspects of the response, including travel corridors, higher education and the work of the Joint Biosecurity Centre.

Lord Haselhurst Portrait Lord Haselhurst (Con) [V]
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My Lords, should we not all recognise that, unlike in a real war, the present Government are fighting an invisible and still not fully understood enemy, while being offered an array of conflicting expert opinions in the full glare of publicity? Therefore, great restraint really has to be exercised if we are to help bolster public resolve, which, in the end, is what we all depend on if this virus is to be defeated.

Lord True Portrait Lord True (Con)
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My noble friend makes an extraordinarily important point, and indeed it is something that is always emphasised by the Prime Minister and all the others who speak to the nation. A lot rests on us—the way that we behave, our sense of responsibility and our common resolve. We should not let those things flag. I frequently note now as I walk down the road that people make no effort to social distance at all. That is in sharp contrast to the observance of space, which was in practice in the original lockdown. Washing your hands, giving space and observing the rules are very important.

Baroness Finlay of Llandaff Portrait Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (CB) [V]
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How often are the four leaders scheduled to meet? Does the Minister recognise that in Wales the distance-aware message means that people still consistently create distance in the street? Also, can he tell us what agreed UK-wide permissions are in place to allow very close relatives of people who are dying, whether they are at home or in a hospice, to visit, even across long distances? For these people, the memories of the last days and weeks will live on for the rest of their lives.

Lord True Portrait Lord True (Con)
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My Lords, I cannot comment on the timing of specific or planned meetings. I have assured the House that a very long and continuing process of engagement takes place. I understand the very sensitive point that the noble Baroness makes and I have sympathy for it. I do not know the specific position that may or may not have been agreed between the parties involved, but I will get advice and let her know.

Baroness Quin Portrait Baroness Quin (Lab) [V]
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My Lords, speaking as someone who lives in Northumberland not far from the Anglo-Scottish border and where people on both sides often identify as “Borderers”, I am in favour of maximum co-ordination between the devolved authorities. Has the Minister seen the report of the Institute for Government outlining some of the problems that have been experienced and suggesting ways forward for working better together in future?

Lord True Portrait Lord True (Con)
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I have not seen the specific report, but I can only repeat that there has been extensive engagement with the DAs throughout the crisis, with regular ministerial engagement, including the calls that I have referred to, and devolved Administration attendance at COBRA meetings. As an example, I refer back to the question from the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay. Through discussions between the four nations’ chief medical officers, we have also aligned advice and guidance to the clinically extremely vulnerable throughout the pandemic, dependent on restrictions in each nation at the time, and for the Christmas period. I assure the noble Baroness and the House that the reality is a common desire to defeat a common enemy. I wish that we could accentuate that resolve and not pick at the occasional differences that arise. There is a lot of work to be done.

Lord Brougham and Vaux Portrait The Deputy Speaker (Lord Brougham and Vaux) (Con)
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My Lords, the time allowed for this Private Notice Question has elapsed. I am sorry about the lack of communication with the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Craig.