UK-EU Withdrawal Agreement

Lord Russell of Liverpool Excerpts

Thursday 10th December 2020 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Lord True) (Con)]

My Lords, there was a very large number of questions there, but most appeared to be in the “dissatisfied” column. I know the House finds this not particularly pleasant to hear, but the United Kingdom Government have made it clear for a very long time that we would not accept an agreement that did not recognise the decision of the people of United Kingdom twice to vote for a sovereign separation from the European Union which should involve our right to control our laws, our borders and our waters.

I infer from the noble Baroness’s remarks that the Labour Party would accept a deal that would not provide us with control of our borders, our laws and our fish because the line she put forward was effectively “agreement at any cost”. We are working tirelessly to get a deal. The Prime Minister made that clear. As I said, we have been clear from the outset that we cannot accept a deal at any cost. As has been made clear this week, there are still differences between the two parties. To repeat what I just said, we cannot accept a deal that will compromise control of our money, our laws, our borders and our fish.

I say in response to both the noble Baroness and the noble Lord that we have been preparing for a long time for all contingencies. We have discussed matters with the devolved Administrations, businesses and affected partners. We have issued advice on a border control operating scheme. We have issued advice to various sectors in Northern Ireland. We are engaged in constant discussions and meetings with those who will potentially be affected. We are also preparing for an Australian-style outcome if necessary. We have invested £705 million in jobs, technology and infrastructure at the border, and provided substantial grants to boost the customs intermediary sector and so on.

The majority of the changes, referring to the impact on businesses, will occur from 1 January 2021 regardless of whether a free trade agreement is made with the EU. Of course, I accept one could always do more to perfect communication, and we are investing an enormous amount of resources to get the case over, to reach businesses and to reach those affected. We are absolutely committed to ensuring businesses have all the information they need to get ready. But I was not sure if the noble Lord was objecting to the idea of phasing the introduction of some arrangements. We believe that that is a sensible and pragmatic approach.

On security, we see no reason why security arrangements should be seriously affected. There is a common interest for all the countries in Europe in relation to security.

On labelling, I may be misremembering, but I believe I wrote to the noble Lord on 30 November with a detailed answer to his question on labelling. If he has not received the letter, I apologise, but I am informed by my office that it was sent.

I was also asked about supermarkets. It is not only supermarkets that we wish to help with the new trader assistance approach; we will reach beyond large operators, but the grace period is offered to supermarkets.

It was implied that EU officials will be issuing directions to United Kingdom staff, but I can assure the House that that is not the case. The House is constantly asking the Government to honour the terms of the protocol, and as the House knows, within the protocol, the EU has the right to ensure and see that matters are being appropriately conducted. But that has never meant, and will never mean, that the EU necessarily has to have an office, embassy or mission building in Belfast. I stand by the comments I and other Ministers have made.

On the announcement today of a new deal for Northern Ireland, the £400 million is on top of other resources announced for assistance with making preparations. So, there is no double counting there; this is new resource.

As far as debates are concerned, both the noble Baroness and the noble Lord will understand that that is a matter for usual channels. There will be another Statement on Monday, I believe, but I hear the noble Lord’s comment about a wider debate. However, he will understand that limited time is available.

Looking at the clock, I am not sure whether I am bound by the 20 minute-rule. Last time I went on after 20 minutes, I was told I should not have done. I cannot get used to the rules of the hybrid House. I thought I should answer the noble Baroness first; I in no way meant to belittle the noble Lord on the Liberal Democrat Benches.

Of course, I reject absolutely the general comments about the United Kingdom Government’s stance and the accusatory remarks made about the Prime Minister. The Prime Minister has been candid, on the one hand, about our position. In a negotiation, each side needs to understand the other’s position. The purported subject of the Statement repeated to the House—the Joint Committee agreement on the Northern Ireland protocol—is a good example of pragmatic co-operation. So, there is evidence that the United Kingdom Government are prepared to seek agreement and negotiate in good faith.

The position, I am afraid to say, does remain, as has been made clear on innumerable occasions—this is not a change or a novelty—that we simply are asking the EU, with the greatest respect, to accept free trade agreement arrangements with us that are similar to those it has agreed with other nations around the world. We do not think that that is an unreasonable request or aspiration. We also ask that they respect and understand the decision of the British people that they wish to have—I make no apology for using the word—sovereign control of their laws, their borders and their waters.

I believe a pragmatic and good outcome is the main burden of this Statement in relation to the agreement on the Northern Ireland protocol. As far as the broader negotiations are concerned, those are continuing, albeit amid the candour on both sides about the difficulties that remain. Let us see how events turn out over the next few days.

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Russell of Liverpool) (CB)]

We now come to the 30 minutes allocated for Back-Bench questions. There are 18 speakers listed. I appeal to all noble Lords, out of courtesy to one another and to the House, to be extremely brief. I am sure that the Minister will also be succinct.

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[Lord True (Con)]

That is certainly true. At the end of the day, the maintenance of the protocol will remain a matter for democratic decision by the people of Northern Ireland. I am grateful for my noble friend’s opening remarks.

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Russell of Liverpool) (CB)]

The noble Lord, Lord Bird, has withdrawn, so I call the noble Lord, Lord Clark of Windermere.

[Lord Clark of Windermere (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, all Members of the House are aware that the Isle of Man lies half way between the United Kingdom and Northern Ireland, yet it has never been a member of the European Union in its own right and is not included in the UK membership of the EU. That relationship is dependent upon protocol 3 of the UK’s Act of accession. That protocol also allows the island to be part of the European Union customs area. Will the Minister double check—or indeed treble check—that the interests of the Isle of Man are covered by and included in this agreement?

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[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, I repeat the very substantial announcements of financial support for Northern Ireland and Northern Ireland business that I referred to in earlier responses. On VAT, as part of implementing the VAT elements of the Northern Ireland protocol, the UK and the EU Commission have needed to agree how EU VAT rules will apply in the unique circumstances created in Northern Ireland, where traders will continue to be part of both the UK and the EU system. That agreement has been reached and is laid out in the Statement. Further guidance on these topics is being published for traders.

We have heard a concern raised about the application of EU second-hand margin schemes. Obviously, these changes will not affect stock bought in advance of 1 January, even if it is sold later, but we acknowledge that this is not a long-lasting solution to these issues. We aim to minimise disruption for Northern Ireland traders to the extent possible, and we continue to explore options.

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Russell of Liverpool) (CB)]

The noble Lord, Lord Balfe, has withdrawn, so I call the noble Lord, Lord Rooker.

[Lord Rooker (Lab) [V]]

I am grateful to the Minister. To be honest, listening to him, I can hear that he is in an incredibly difficult situation with things moving outside the Chamber. I will confine myself to a single point. Northern Ireland will be treated differently—as it always has been—on the customs union and the single market, while it is out of the common agricultural policy, as the Statement says. My question is simple: what is the position of the rapid alert system for food and feed? Some eight to 10 notifications are issued per day around the European Union. How does Northern Ireland figure in RASFF? Is it out or will it be part of RASFF after 31 December, irrespective of whether there is a deal? Food production per head of population in Northern Ireland is far more significant than in England or, indeed, in Scotland, so it is an absolutely crucial issue for Northern Ireland industries. Will they be part of RASFF or not?