Carbon Emissions: Bus Fleets

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Tuesday 12th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

I do not think that is just Green Party policy, but I agree with the noble Baroness that that principle of encouraging public transport and bus use is absolutely what we need.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My Lords, as the number of electric buses purchased by operators increases, the cost of producing those buses is falling. When does the Department for Transport expect the total cost of ownership of an electric bus, including its reduced operation costs, to be the same as that of a traditional vehicle?

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

The noble Baroness raises a good point. The whole purpose of encouraging the production of electric buses is to ensure that the market develops and the costs fall. I do not currently have an estimate of whether the cost of those vehicles will ever equal the cost of traditional diesel buses, but I can say that it is absolutely the right move, and the support given by successive zero-emission bus schemes is contributing to the manufacturing industry keeping abreast of technology and to the general reduction in cost. I will see whether we can find any figures; if we can, I shall write to the noble Baroness with them.

Lower Thames Crossing Development Consent Order

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Monday 22nd July 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

The Government are committed to a long-term infrastructure plan that considers all the infrastructure needed to grow the economy, create jobs and build housing across Britain. It is a bit of a stretch from Dudley to the M25 at the Dartford Tunnel, but I know that the Government will look at schemes across the country and seek to take the best view of how to invest in them for the best economic future of the country.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My Lords, the lower Thames crossing, with which I am greatly familiar, is just one albeit large project in the second road investment strategy. Of course, the third road investment strategy is due to start in April 2025, and industry will need certainty as to what it is going to be expected to build. Can the new Government commit to keeping the level of spending commitments that the previous Conservative Government had, or will we see spending on new roads slashed in future?

Mail Carriage by Rail

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Monday 22nd July 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

The department’s officials are working closely with officials from the Department for Business and Trade. I will take the noble Baroness’s comments back to both departments.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My Lords, the previous Conservative Government were very supportive of the modal shift; in fact we introduced the Mode Shift Revenue Support scheme. Have the Minister’s officials pointed Royal Mail to that scheme, and might it be helpful in this regard?

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

My understanding is that the Mode Shift Revenue Support scheme, which has a budget of £18 million for 2024-25, has been effective. The current scheme expires on 31 March 2025, but my current understanding is that it does not apply to the carriage of mail by rail.

Automated Vehicles Bill [HL]

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

2nd reading
Tuesday 28th November 2023 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Davies of Gower]

That the bill be committed to a Grand Committee, and that it be an instruction to the Grand Committee that they consider the bill in the following order:

Clauses 1 to 37, Schedule 1, Clauses 38 to 45, Schedule 2, Clauses 46 to 54, Schedule 3, Clauses 55 to 66, Schedule 4, Clauses 67 to 81, Schedule 5, Clauses 82 to 84, Schedule 6, Clauses 85 to 100, Title.

Motion agreed.

Flying Schools: Liquidation

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Monday 13th November 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Balfe]

To ask His Majesty’s Government whether they will convene a working party consisting of the Civil Aviation Authority, Financial Conduct Authority, the Department for Transport and any other relevant body, to examine the case for strengthening consumer protections for customers of flying schools who lose money when such schools go into liquidation.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, we fully sympathise with those affected and recognise the substantial impact on those individuals. It is important to note that these recent closures represent around 1% of the training school market. We are actively considering options to support current and potential future trainee pilots, including improving guidance from the Civil Aviation Authority.

[Lord Balfe (Con)]

I thank the Minister for her Answer, but three flying schools have gone into liquidation this year. Individual customers are owed up to £80,000 each, and a debt of over £4 million is very unlikely to be paid by the liquidators overseeing this. Surely it is the job of government to protect individuals who are put in this invidious position, where they have to pay up front for a service that is just not being delivered. Certainly, in one case, a flying school was collecting money almost up to the day that it collapsed. We need the Minister to do something. My Question suggested a framework for moving forward. Will she agree to investigate that framework and see whether she can make it work?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My noble friend is, I believe, honorary president of BALPA. I am sure he will be reassured to know that I met BALPA, the airline pilots’ union, on 19 September alongside the CAA to discuss this issue. A number of ideas were taken forward but it is clear that we need to improve the guidance and information available to trainee pilots such that the amounts of money handed over are not excessive, because they do not need to be. There is a significant amount of competition in the flying school market. If a candidate is asked to hand over too much money, frankly, he or she should potentially look elsewhere.

[Lord Kirkhope of Harrogate (Con)]

My Lords, as one of those who benefited from learning to fly at a municipal flying school, I am concerned that a number of flying schools are ceasing to trade. I wonder therefore whether my noble friend can do more to encourage our UK-registered airlines; in particular, to make sure that they train their future pilots at UK flying schools rather than at flying schools in other parts of the world.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

As my noble friend is aware, the aviation sector and the flying school sector are private sectors. I reassure him that we have had a number of conversations with airlines around the need for skills, including new pilots. The airlines do not currently see a pressing pilot shortage; however, I am very pleased that both British Airways and TUI now have cadetship programmes in place. That is great for supporting new trainees, but also really good for increasing diversity.

[Lord Sikka (Lab)]

My Lords, the issues raised by the noble Lord, Lord Balfe, are experienced by millions of people who pay for goods and services in advance, but then do not receive them because the supplying entity has gone into liquidation. A good way to protect innocent customers is to ring-fence all credit balances. If the Minister disagrees with that suggestion, what else would she propose?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I think the noble Lord is trying to tempt me into the wider economy, when I am focused on flying schools. But when trainee pilots pay money over to the flying schools, they should ask themselves whether it is reasonable. BALPA is considering a finance fairness charter, which I am sure the noble Lord would also support, which would ensure that flying schools that sign up do not accept excessive advance payments, and that they commit to transparency regarding costs and charges.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, the Minister seeks to downplay the significance of these problems, and the demise of these three companies. She seeks to downplay the amount of money that is owed to individuals—£80,000 is a significant amount to most people. Is she not concerned that the situation will undermine the reputation of the UK aviation industry, and the skills for aviation that we really need to build up as a nation, rather than undermining them with the failure of companies?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

Three flying schools have closed. One of those was a planned closure, and the trainees were not impacted. Two were unplanned closures, and trainees were impacted. There remain around 270 flying schools. As I said, it is a small amount. The noble Baroness mentioned £80,000; I cannot corroborate that figure. That seems quite high to me; it would mean that somebody is paying for their entire training up front. Again, this is the point I am trying to make; it is up to the trainees. Working with BALPA and the CAA—wherever trainees get their information—it is about getting the information to them to say: “You do not need to pay vast amounts of money up front, and if a flying school is asking for that, it is entirely reasonable to go elsewhere”. As I say, there are 270 flying schools in the UK.

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

My Lords, this issue is essentially a financial one. It is a matter of the chaotic planning of pilot training. Ever since the Second World War, there have only been periods of it being properly done. I was trained in the 1960s, paid for by the national airlines. That yielded a group of pilots which has created four decades of ever-increasing safety. Mistakes were made in demand; I was also responsible for those, having got the number of pilots catastrophically wrong—we had too many. It has gone on like that. In the recent past, we have had this magic formula of leaving it to the private sector. Now, things have happened to the private sector that have put these relatively small businesses under stress. The Minister’s department needs to study the whole thing and see where we are.

I think there must be a real crisis because, as the Minister will know, British Airways has launched the Speedbird Pilot Academy for 60 candidates—wholly paid for, including board and lodging. The problem that has emerged is twofold. First, becoming an airline pilot is probably the profession that needs the right parents more than others as £120,000 is the sort of figure you need. Secondly, there is instability among the flying schools. Will the Minister look into this problem and see whether she can bring some stability to the situation?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord. The Government have already looked at this and we continue to look at this in some detail. In May this year we published an independent research report commissioned by the Department for Transport which looked into the cost of airline pilot training and the numbers that we are likely to need. It forecast a shortage in about 20 years. However, that prediction was highly uncertain, so I would very much like the airlines to work with the training schools and BALPA to come forward with proposals, which I will happily look at.

[Lord Trefgarne (Con)]

My Lords, is it not the case that many flying schools are having increasing difficulties with the environmental constraints being imposed upon their operations by local authorities, meaning that they can fly for fewer hours during the day than previously, which is beginning to cause something of a problem?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I was not aware of the issue that my noble friend has raised. It is right that local authorities are able to impose restrictions on aerodromes in certain circumstances. However, they must do that balancing the advantages of having an aerodrome in a certain location, not only in terms of getting people learning to fly, but all the ancillary services and other businesses that are often on aerodromes and are hugely beneficial.

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

Does the Minister agree that one of the reasons for these flying schools getting into difficulty is the lack of air navigation aids, which were cancelled when we Brexited? Will she look into reinstating EGNOS or possibly Inmarsat so that not only can more people can learn to fly but so that we can fly to the Hebrides or the Scillies more easily in fog?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The noble Lord is pushing the boundaries of this Question and indeed my patience.

[Noble Lords]

Oh!

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

No, no, no. The noble Lord knows that the two are not particularly related. He makes representations to me about EGNOS, and I am always grateful to receive them.

HS2 Ltd: Costs

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Wednesday 25th October 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Berkeley]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of reports alleging that HS2 Ltd did not disclose accurate cost estimates for the project; and what plans they have to establish an independent inquiry into that company’s actions.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, my department and HS2 Ltd have ensured, and will continue to ensure, claims of misrepresentation are taken seriously and thoroughly investigated. Several of the claims recently detailed in the media have already been established as unfounded, including through an independent National Audit Office report in 2018. The HS2 Ltd counterfraud and business ethics team is investigating the most recent allegation about the company, and while this is under investigation it would be inappropriate to comment further.

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

I thank the noble Baroness for that interesting response. There were a lot of people quoted in the Sunday Times at the weekend, including experienced HS2 directors who have risked their careers and jobs because they are so worried about what went wrong within the company. Noble Lords will know that the Prime Minister criticised HS2 in his speech at the Conservative party conference, and I quote:

“There must be some accountability for the mistakes made, for the mismanagement of this project”.


Those are tough words from the Prime Minister. Can I suggest to the noble Baroness that, if she will not have an independent public inquiry into these allegations, the Government should sue the Sunday Times and take it to court?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

As I said in my opening Answer, it is clear that people wish to make allegations against HS2 Ltd, and we would absolutely encourage them to come forward with evidence. There are a number of mechanisms by which that evidence can be reviewed and further action taken if needed.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

Is my noble friend aware that there have been two reports by the Economic Affairs Committee of this House on HS2—one four years ago and another four years before that? The first report suggested to the Government that it might be more sensible and represent more value for money if the expenditure was concentrated on east-west infra- structure in the north of England, and pointed to the concern about the viability of the business case. The second report—I was chairman and should declare that interest—pointed out that costs were out of control, and that if this was not dealt with it would result in the Government having to cancel the northern routes altogether and be left with a white elephant. Is the lesson here not that the Government should pay more attention to Select Committees of this House?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The Government always pay attention to Select Committees of this House. I well remember when my noble friend and I debated that report—indeed, many other noble Lords took part in that debate. That is just one of the many mechanisms that Parliament has, and that wider society has, for holding the Government and HS2 to account.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, when it comes to misrepresentation, can the noble Baroness confirm that Mr Andy Street, the Conservative Mayor of the West Midlands, was persuaded by the Prime Minister not to resign over the decision on HS2 because he was promised that the link to Euston would be continued? It now turns out that that is not certain at all and depends on additional private finance. Why have the Government not been straight about this ridiculous decision not to run it into Euston?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

As the noble Lord well knows, the decision has been taken to run it into Euston. My colleague the Rail Minister has had a number of meetings with members of the private finance community to start developing plans and options to get that finance together. Battersea Power Station, for example, attracted £9 billion in private sector investment. It is not beyond the wit of man to do something similar, perhaps even more, for the Euston quarter.

[Earl Attlee (Con)]

My Lords, does my noble friend the Minister agree that we need to take a very close look at the legislative process for large infrastructure projects and at the whole planning system?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for that question, but it goes slightly beyond the topic at hand. After the hybrid Bill for phase 2a of HS2, both Houses looked at the hybrid Bill system. It is something that we should continue to refine and improve. However, some infrastructure projects are so large that a hybrid Bill is really the only option.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

My Lords, I thought this was good journalism from the Sunday Times, but what do I know? It offered a helpful list of what that £100 billion could have been spent on, including 270,000 nurses, 1 million council homes, 200 hospitals or 10,000 schools. Have this Government looted the public purse for so long—13 years—that they do not understand how important it is to keep track of this sort of alleged corruption?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The noble Baroness will be unsurprised to hear that I do not agree. I do not normally comment on media articles, but this was a collection of old allegations which, as I said previously, the National Audit Office has established were unfounded. I also said that HS2 Ltd is looking at the allegation that has not yet been investigated, so I cannot comment on it. However, the noble Baroness is right that some good things have come out of the cancellation of HS2, such as the billions of pounds that we have been able to invest in the rest of the transport network in the north and the Midlands.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, making even less economic sense than the Government’s decision to truncate HS2 at Birmingham is their vindictive scorched-earth policy to sell off all the land they purchased immediately. Will the Government learn the lessons of railway history? Many good modern rail projects cannot proceed because land was sold off following the Beeching debacle—another expert Tory action. Will the Government learn that lesson and undertake a thorough look at all the pieces of land for all potential future rail projects, many of which they are suggesting, to make sure that no land is sold off that will be needed in future?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am delighted to reassure the noble Baroness that that is precisely what we are doing. We have looked at the land for phase 2a and concluded that we do not need it for other rail projects. Therefore, safeguarding will be formally lifted. However, we will not lift the formal safeguarding for phase 2b until next summer, because there is a job of work to be done. The noble Baroness is absolutely right: the Government will not sell off the land until we have established which bits will be needed for projects such as Northern Powerhouse Rail.

[Baroness Taylor of Stevenage (Lab)]

My Lords, as the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, said, on top of the financial fiasco surrounding HS2 that has already unfolded, it appears that the Government are about to add what High Speed Rail Group calculated as more than £100 million of further losses to the taxpayer in the fire sale of land that had been acquired along the route. Will the Minister respond to comments made by Sir John Armitt and the National Infrastructure Commission that it would be a mistake to sell off the land that the Government bought and that they should keep their options open?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The Government are keeping their options open as necessary.

[Lord McLoughlin (Con)]

Will my noble friend assure the House that there is no need for another inquiry into HS2? If anything, there should be an inquiry into how many inquiries there have been into HS2 over the course of its life. However, perhaps an inquiry into the way that the decision was made to not continue with the rest of HS2 would be appropriate. The company for HS2, the Department for Transport and the Treasury will always have the National Audit Office operating and keeping a watchful eye on them, as was made so clear by the chairman of the Public Accounts Committee, Meg Hillier, just a few days ago. I declare my interest as a former Secretary of State for Transport.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I cautiously agree with my noble friend that there have been an enormous number of inquiries into HS2 over time. However, so many of them were needed, and indeed will continue to be so. There is an enormous amount of scrutiny of HS2 Ltd, not only from the Public Accounts Committee, where the senior responsible officer, the Permanent Secretary, appears and will appear next month, but from the Transport Select Committee, the committee of your Lordships’ House, and other bodies such as the National Audit Office. I am sure that their scrutiny will continue, and rightly so.

Transport: Zero-emission Vehicles, Drivers and HS2

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Tuesday 17th October 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, what a shambles. In their frantic search for a few more votes in order to cling on to power, this Government have abandoned their pretence at leadership on decarbonisation. They have abandoned their pretence to modernise our public transport system along with any claim to care about pedestrian safety or clean air, which is so important for our health and particularly the health of our children. It is important to remember that 20 mph zones are not anti-motorist; they are pro-pedestrian. You are five times more likely to die if hit by a car at 30 mph than at 20 mph. I remind noble Lords that fewer than half of us as a percentage of the total population drive cars, yet almost all of us are pedestrians.

By abandoning targets for electric vehicles, the Government have undermined the automotive industry and deterred new investment. The Statement refers to an increase in the number of charge points, but the huge restriction on that expansion in their number, especially at motorway services, is the capacity of the grid. So what plans do the Government have to expand that capacity?

Of course, HS2 has not been well managed—the current Government have been in charge—and it is costing a great deal. It is not good value for money because the Government have turned it from an ambitious high-speed project into a short-distance shuttle. It is a fact that it costs more per mile to build any form of infrastructure in the UK than in almost any other country in Europe. Rail infrastructure costs are generally twice the amount per mile of those in France. Will the Government hold an inquiry, not just to into HS2 and how it came to cost so much and go so badly wrong, but into why we are so bad at building major infrastructure projects that provide value for money?

The Prime Minister announced a list of replacement projects, many of which were just recycled announcements. One of them, the Manchester Metrolink to the airport, has actually been in force for nine years. The Government then said that this was just an illustrative list—“This is a road”; “This is a railway”—but we did not need that sort of illustration. Can the Minister clarify the status of the wishlist? How and when will final decisions be made?

There was an announcement of £8.3 billion for potholes. We have plenty of potholes, I will give the Government that, but I am suspicious of the amount because it sounds to me like a difficult figure to account for. We might find it difficult to track whether that money has gone fairly across the whole country to the areas that need it most. Can the Minister explain the mechanisms the Government intend to use for the disbursal and spending of that significant amount of money?

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

I am grateful to both noble Baronesses for their contributions on this incredibly important Statement. It is the case that the Government had to make a difficult decision. The facts have clearly changed, and we needed to change our approach. All noble Lords will know that the situation with business travel is very different nowadays. Leisure travel has increased but business travel did not come back. On the basis of those facts, we had to make some decisions.

In doing so, though, we have repurposed the investments that would have been made in HS2 into a vast array of investments—mostly in the north, I will grant, but then I am often asked about investments in the north. I am delighted that about two-thirds of this investment will go there while much of the rest will go to the Midlands. I am really excited by the various investments that the Government have set out. Many of those were not mentioned by the two noble Baronesses but I will try to work them into my answers because there are many. Neither noble Baroness mentioned buses. We love buses, and we are investing an additional £1 billion in them. That is the sort of thing the noble Baronesses have been pressing me to do for a very long time and we are doing it—but no, there were no thanks for those sorts of things. I will answer their questions, but I will try to get the good news in as I can.

The noble Baroness, Lady Taylor, asked me a number of questions. She will have to forgive me; I am afraid they came out very quickly and I was doing my best to try to follow them, but I will try to answer them. The decision was taken by the Secretary of State the day before the announcement. Obviously, there was a Cabinet meeting on the day of the announcement to discuss the decision and to reach collective agreement, and it was then announced by the Prime Minister. Had that agreement not been reached, the Prime Minister would have been unable to announce the cancellation and the massive investment which is the corollary to the cancellation, and the video would not have been played. I cannot get too excited about a video.

However, I will be clear that this is a decision for the Government. It is a government programme. The Government set the policy direction of HS2, and HS2 Ltd is responsible for the delivery of the railways, so it is a government decision, a national decision. However, as the noble Baroness will know, and I am sure she is delighted to hear, the Government are committed to investing £12 billion to improve the speed and east-west connectivity between Manchester and Liverpool. For those sorts of things—that vast sum of money that will be invested in east-west connectivity—it is up to local leaders to help us shape that investment. The noble Baroness will also be pleased to know that we have started discussions with the metro mayors and their teams on how we are going to get the best out of that £12 billion.

It is worth talking about delivery. Many of the projects that were in the package are delivered by different people. This is an important aspect to understand: the Government can shape the programme of National Highways and indeed Network Rail but, when it comes to investment, for pretty much everything else we are reliant on local partners, and that is absolutely right. People throw the criticism towards the Government, “Oh, but your list is somehow illustrative”, but of course it is. We are not going to drive a coach and horses through local democracy. In the LLM and MRN projects, not only has funding being topped up for about 70 road schemes, so that they will be funded 100%, but we are doing another round of funding. However, neither of those things can be done without the agreement of the local authority. It is up to the local authority to bring forward projects for consideration for funding, and indeed to develop the business cases. So, for some projects, in five years’ time the noble Baronesses may turn round to me and say, “Baroness Vere, you did not deliver on that project”, but that probably would not be down to the Government. It would be down to the local authority deciding that, for whatever reason, it was not right for their area, and that is fine.

The noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, had a lot of questions that I think I was able to write down. I will try to address as many of them as I can. She somehow accused the Government of scrabbling around for a few more votes. Gosh, that sounded like a Lib Dem by-election candidate campaigning against HS2. The Lib Dem Front Bench must find it very amusing that they campaigned against what was party policy.

The noble Baroness mentioned the issue of low-traffic neighbourhoods and investment in active travel. I am proud of the fact that this Government stand with those who drive cars. Cars are not a luxury; they are a lifeline. However, we are very clear that our investment in active travel will continue. We are clear that 20 mph zones need to have local support. We think that enforcement should be pragmatic—of course it should; that is just rational and reasonable. In our long-term plan for drivers we set out 30 measures that we think will help people travelling around in their cars day to day. As all noble Lords will know, many more people use their cars than use the trains, for example.

The noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, mentioned zero-emission vehicles and that somehow this was very destructive for the industry. I would like to reassure her that we are working closely with the industry and that the manufacturers are on board. We have seen investment in the UK from BMW, Stellantis and Tata, expanding their electric vehicle manufacturing operations. Of course, we have also brought ourselves into line with great nations such as Canada, Australia and Germany. We are not unusual or an outlier in doing this at all; we are just being pragmatic.

I will admit that we need to continue focusing on charging points, and we absolutely are. They have gone up by 43% since last year and continue to go up very quickly indeed. We work closely with the DNOs on making sure that there is grid capacity at motorway service stations and elsewhere, and that continues all across the country.

The noble Baroness mentioned the business case for phase 1 of HS2. I think she referred to it as some sort of shuttle or whatever. I am sorry, but that shuttle she referred to has a BCR of between 1.2 and 1.8, which is very reasonable for such a large infrastructure project. She also asked why it cost more. HS2 is costing more because it goes through some very densely populated areas. There are significant amounts of tunnelling, with six big tunnels in phase 1 alone, and significant environmental mitigations. Of course, if the noble Baroness wants us to remove the environmental mitigations, I am sure it would be much cheaper, but this Government would not do that.

I do not accept that we need an inquiry as to why we are in the situation that we are, because a lot of people scrutinise our major infrastructure projects all the time. The Infrastructure and Projects Authority and all sorts of other people do so, including the Transport Select Committee.

The noble Baroness mentioned the potholes funding, which involves a really important amount of money. It is not only about potholes; it will literally enable local councils to resurface roads, which I know many noble Lords will be able to support. Again, it is being skewed towards the north because this funding goes to where that money would otherwise have been spent. However, there will be £3.3 billion to the north, £2.2 billion to the Midlands and £2.8 billion for the rest of the country over 10 years. That will make a significant difference. It is in addition to the money allocated in the spending review of 2021, and in addition to what the usual expectations from a local council would be. This is new money, and that additional money will make a huge difference to our roads.

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

My Lords, many noble Lords and other people have said to me, “You must feel very pleased that you won and it got cancelled”. I do not look upon it that way at all. I have been campaigning for many years now because the cost of HS2 was ballooning, but my main reason was that I thought it was the wrong project for what was being built. The costs had gone right out of control and the Prime Minister made the right decision. I am sorry that lots of colleagues will disagree with me.

The question we have to ask the Minister, and ourselves, is: what next? The Prime Minister made the commitment to £36 billion being spent on public transport and other things. That is set out in some ways in the Network North document. I am very pleased to know that some of my friends in Devon and Cornwall will get a slice of something called Network North—well, that is all right. We have to make sure that this is actually delivered. The most important thing for me is to see the delivery in the hands of people such as the noble Lord, Lord McLoughlin, and his team opposite. They actually represent the transport people in the Midlands and the north who will be the users of whatever gets done there, to some extent. I hope that devolution will help to support that and that they will be given enough money and decision-making powers to make it work.

My questions to the Minister include one or two urgent ones. What about safeguarding of the land? How much of it will be reduced or removed—and when—in phase 2a, phase 2b west and any other bits that do not get used? What is going to happen to the bit between Birmingham and Old Oak Common or Euston? It could do with a repurpose as a railway, but there are ways of saving money without affecting the effect at all.

My final question is: what is going to happen at Euston? The Statement is clear that there is going to be a development company involved. But then I read something else in the press which said that there is no government money going into this and that if the development company cannot make it work, it will not get built. That is not good news for the people who live around there. I remind the Minister that if the project stopped at Old Oak Common, which I still think is perfectly reasonable, she would save £12 billion, on my figures. Maybe that does not matter and maybe it does. We also need to have a proper design of the tunnels going into Euston, because there is no safe design. We presented one to the Select Committee about 10 years ago. It got rejected by HS2, but it may be worth looking at that again. I am very happy to sit down with the Minister and anybody else to talk about this further.

On this very rare occasion, I support what the Prime Minister has said. Let us make it work in the future.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am very grateful for the noble Lord’s support for the Prime Minister’s decision. I would like to reassure him that another piece of good news, which I have not been able to talk about so far, is the massive increase in CRSTS—the city region sustainable transport settlements. We are adding billions of pounds to the second tranche of this. These are very significant amounts of money. For example, Greater Manchester will get an additional £1 billion. Again, the same is going to the West Midlands. We are adding to the £8.8 billion that we had already said the mayors would get. There will be several billions of pounds; forgive me, I cannot add it all up in time. It is sufficient to really turbo-charge some mass transit schemes. For example, in West Yorkshire we have committed £2.5 billion to fund a mass transit scheme in full. Finally, Leeds and the surrounding areas will have one, which will be amazing. That is a very positive thing. We recognise that devolution to the metro mayors is a good thing.

On safeguarding matters, we recognise that there is an issue with safeguarding and blight. We will be going through the proper legal processes and following them for properties that are no longer needed. For phase 2a, the safeguarding will be formally lifted within weeks. For phase 2b, it will be lifted next summer—the rationale for that is that there will still be some significant rail infrastructure projects in the north, and we need to make sure that we do not sell land we subsequently need. As the programme is developed, that land will either be sold or kept if it is needed.

On Euston, I am going to have to disagree with the noble Lord. I think that sometimes the private sector can do wonderful things. I refer the noble Lord to Battersea Power Station. If noble Lords have been there, they will know it looks quite remarkable. That attracted £9 billion in private sector investment.

[Baroness Humphreys (LD)]

My Lords, I am sure the noble Baroness can imagine the delight of seasoned north Wales travellers, like myself, when they heard the Prime Minister mention the electrification of the north Wales main line in his conference speech. Can the Minister clarify whether the Prime Minister’s commitment to the electrification of the line is a cast- iron commitment or if it was included in his conference speech merely for illustrative purposes, as he now says other schemes were? I may be dubious and cynical, but history teaches us in Wales what happened to the commitment to electrify the Cardiff to Swansea line. If it is a commitment, can the noble Baroness inform us when work on the business case for the project will start?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I do not know for sure, but I imagine that work on the business case will have already started. All these projects are at some point in the whole business case process, which, as the noble Baroness will know, is very lengthy. We are very committed to the upgrade of the north Wales line. It is completely due, and it is our ambition to work with Network Rail and other delivery partners to make sure that we do it in the most effective way.

[Lord McLoughlin (Con)]

My Lords, I declare my interest as chairman of Transport for the North. I say to my noble friend that I realise the position she faces defending this decision. For the last 13 years, any Minister standing at the Dispatch Box would have been saying why HS2 was, in fact, the right decision. Big transport infrastructure projects are always incredibly difficult. They are never without controversy and this scheme certainly was not.

I believe that the scheme, as originally designed, was the right one. I find it ironic that I could go from London to Paris, Brussels or Amsterdam on a high-speed train, but I cannot do the same for the great cities of the United Kingdom. It is an argument I made as Secretary of State, and I am not going to deflect from it now. I believe that overall it was the right decision for United Kingdom plc.

However, my noble friend keeps referring to the work that will carry on with the metro mayors. It is a great pity that they were not consulted before this decision was made. I find it rather ironic that, on the Tuesday the Prime Minister was telling us all that he was not going to be rushed into a decision, but then he made it a major part of his conference speech on the Wednesday. I have been involved in prime ministerial conference speeches in the past, and they are not usually put together in the last few hours before delivery.

Can my noble friend tell us now that we are going to get every transport plan we ever wanted because we have freed the schemes and we will see a utopia as far as transport is concerned? Some of this money seems to be going into revenue rather than capital investment, which is an interesting thing to see eventually on the department’s accounts.

This is not going to go away. A lot of people have been affected by this particular scheme and have had things compulsorily purchased for HS2 which are no longer going to be wanted. I do not think we will have heard the last of some of the problems that will be facing us as far as HS2 is concerned over the next 12 or 18 months, or even the next two years. This is something that is going to continue.

Ministers can point to Birmingham and say what HS2 is doing for Birmingham. I am sorry that that is not going to be done for our other great cities. That is a regretful notion that we will come to think and talk about. However, we have to make sure there is greater connectivity between our great northern cities, because there is a potential that is untapped. It needs tapping if the United Kingdom is truly going to be a country of equal opportunities across all of its regions.

That is what I hope will happen over the next few months. A decision has been made, and it does not look like the Official Opposition will say they will reverse it. If they did say that, it might change some of the argument, but they are not doing so yet. That also needs to be borne in mind. The implications of what has been announced will take some time to debate, and it will take time for the full ramifications to become known.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am grateful to my noble friend. I note his reflections and, to be honest, I share his disappointment to some extent, but I accept the decision. He made some valid points about the challenges that still face the HS2 project as a whole, and I agree: there are no major infrastructure projects that do not have significant challenges. But it is heartening to know that the Government are beefing up the governance arrangements of HS2 Ltd. A new chief executive is being recruited, and Sir Jon Thompson, the new chair who took his place in February, is very much involved in the recruitment to make sure that we get the right person to take the project forward.

My noble friend mentioned that there is some switch from capital to revenue—that always makes a Transport Minister excited because we do get much revenue funding in transport—but it is still mostly capital, of course, because we are talking about capital spend. This is an opportunity to mention one other piece of good news that I have not been able to mention to date: the “Get Around for £2” bus fare cap has been extended to the end of December. Again, that is revenue spend, and it is being used by millions of users. It has been really well received, and I am very pleased that we have been able to extend it.

[Lord Faulkner of Worcester (Lab)]

My Lords, I remind the House of my interest as chairman of the Great Western Railway stakeholder board. It is a privilege to follow the noble Lord, Lord McLoughlin, who in the view of many of us was the most outstanding and successful Secretary of State for Transport in the past 12 years. The very good sense with which he spoke in this debate is an indication of why he is regarded with such respect.

The noble Lord was absolutely right in all his points. I do not intend to repeat them, but I would like to address the Minister, for whom I feel enormous sympathy because she has defended High Speed 2 day after day from that Dispatch Box and has not been supported by everyone in the House—and certainly not by everyone on the Benches behind her. She has now come along to defend a decision that is, frankly, absolutely indefensible because of the damage it does to the future prospects of the great cities of this country, as the noble Lord, Lord McLoughlin, said.

I have one question, which occurred to me when I heard the Prime Minister’s statement and read the documents today: what has happened to Great British Railways? Has it now been completely junked? If so, would it not be honest of the Government to say so? It is not a question of waiting for parliamentary time or using other means of establishing Great British Railways, about which I have written to the Minister. Is it still the Government’s intention that there will be a guiding mind and that the decisions about the future of British railways will at last be taken by people who understand how they work?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I reassure the noble Lord that it is still the Government’s intention that there will be Great British Railways. As I have said previously, it will depend on parliamentary time, but an enormous amount of work is of course going on in the meantime to establish an interim guiding mind to get as many things as we can. There are matters to work through as we develop the guiding mind principle—industrial action obviously being one of them—to give the senior leadership the head space they need to make some significant changes to establish a guiding mind.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, freeing roads for people and cyclists and reducing urban road speeds are a public health measure as well as a transport measure. They are a move to benefit small independent businesses in city centres as well as a step towards improved road safety, of course. A review was published in The Lancet Public Health journal, gathering research on low-emission schemes from around the world. Five of eight showed a clear reduction in heart and circulatory problems, and none showed a worsening. In Oxford, where Broad Street’s parking has been removed and new LTNs have been created, the city-centre footfall has grown by 15%, versus a UK average of 0%, while the shop vacancy rate is 6%, versus 13% in the south of England. Should not decisions about road use and conditions be made locally—as they have been in the Prime Minister’s own constituency, where North Yorkshire Council is significantly expanding 20 miles per hour speed limits—rather than be imposed from faraway Westminster?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

Yes, they absolutely should and, of course, the Government issue guidance for local authorities to make those decisions.

[Lord Shipley (LD)]

What has happened to the money saved from the cancellation two years ago of the eastern leg of HS2 into Yorkshire, linking with the east coast main line? The Statement refers to a saving of £36 billion by stopping HS2 at Birmingham, of which £20 billion will go to the north. I am not clear from the Statement or from the Network North document what the plans are for the upgrade of the east coast main line, which has been consistently promised but does not appear in these documents. This is an issue of great concern to me, but it may be that the upgrade money is actually identified and the saving the Government have generated in the eastern leg link through Leeds and to the east coast main line is part of the £36 billion. I do not think it is—I think it has already been delivered as a saving—but I do not know where the money has gone. The Minister may like to write to explain that issue.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I would certainly like to give more information. My notes say “east coast main line”, but they do not exactly say what that means. It is our intention to continue the work we had planned there, as it is with many of the wider schemes in that area.

The focus of the announcement was very much on the savings from the cancellation of the route to Manchester, because that is much further developed. The Manchester line would have been open by 2041, so we were looking at savings over that period. Looking even further into the distance would really stretch noble Lords’ credulity—but over that period up to 2041 we can see the projects coming through. I shall write with further information on the east coast main line.

[Baroness Pinnock (LD)]

My Lords, having just last week travelled by high-speed rail from London to Switzerland, it is shameful to me that the country does not seem able to be part of the great European high-speed rail transit system, especially for those of us who live in the north of the country—although that now includes the south-west and the Midlands. That brings me to the great cities of the north of England: Liverpool, Manchester, Bradford, Leeds, York, Newcastle and Hull. Currently, they are served by the worst performing of all the rail network companies, and the routes are not electrified. Can the Minister give us an absolute guarantee that the trans-Pennine route from Liverpool to Hull and all those other cities will be fully electrified, using capital that has been reallocated to northern transit systems? By fully electrified, I mean including under the Pennine section.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

What I can say to the noble Baroness is that our plans for the trans-Pennine route upgrade continue, and all the cities she mentioned are ones on which we have a laser-like focus. She mentioned Bradford, which got left out of the IRP. We had to make difficult decisions in the IRP, and we have been able to put that back. We will be looking at routes to Hull and Sheffield. I have already talked about the Manchester to Liverpool investment of £12 billion. As a Government, we recognise that east-west across the north is very poorly served at the moment, and I am very pleased that we are able to make such an investment.

House adjourned at 8.34 pm.

Railway Stations: Ticket Office Closures

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Wednesday 20th September 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Quin]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what recent discussions they have had with the Railway Group and train operators about proposed station ticket office closures.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, together with the rail industry, we want to modernise the passenger experience by moving staff out of ticket offices to provide more help and assistance in customer-focused roles. Ministers and department officials regularly engage with industry, including the Rail Delivery Group and train operating companies, to discuss a wide range of topics including how best to operate stations and serve passenger needs in the most efficient and effective way.

[Baroness Quin (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister keeps saying that this proposal is all about getting staff out of ticket offices and on to platforms to help people. However, in my local station, Alnmouth, the staff already help people both in the ticket office and on the platform. This proposal therefore represents a deterioration in quality, not an improvement. I have a simple question for the Minister: in cases where a clear majority of the public is against ticket office closures at their station, will their views be listened to, with no question of their views being overridden?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The important thing to understand here is that this is a genuine consultation. The people who have received all the responses to the consultation are independent—they are independent passenger bodies, including Transport Focus and London TravelWatch. They will look at the responses that they get and the proposals put to them by the TOCs. They will listen to concerns and refine the proposals with the TOCs to ensure that appropriate service levels are being offered.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, will the figures be published? Does my noble friend the Minister not realise that many of us get the feeling that it has been decided that this is what we want when many of us do not?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The independent passenger bodies will publish their responses to each of the train operating companies’ proposals.

[Lord Anderson of Swansea (Lab)]

Will the people on the platform be prepared to help the elderly and the disabled get their tickets if tickets offices do not exist?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

That is the whole point: they will be more than happy to do so. We want to have multi-skilled individuals working for the railways such that they can help all sorts of passengers with a varying range of needs.

[Lord Laming (CB)]

My Lords, I will share with the Minister the experience at my local station, where there is only ever one member of staff on duty. In the morning, that member of staff opens up the station, the toilets and waiting rooms, and helps people get their tickets, sold either directly or with these complicated machines. They are, in effect, the station manager; this one person is essential to the operation of the station.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I hope the noble Lord has fed that back into the consultation, where it will be taken into account by the independent passenger bodies.

[Lord Moylan (Con)]

My Lords, is my noble friend aware that Transport for London introduced an almost identical scheme a few years ago? It went extremely smoothly; nobody noticed or complained about it once it had been implemented, and it has greatly benefitted passengers.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My noble friend is exactly right. It was a former Conservative Mayor of London who took this step for ticket offices in Tube stations. The current Mayor of London came in with great fury and said he was going to review the whole thing and make changes if appropriate—not a single change was made.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, it has become clear over the last year that several train companies have ceased to recruit new staff for ticket offices, and have therefore been shutting them gradually by default. Can the Minister assure us that the Government have not sanctioned this, and that any review of the 700,000 people who have responded to the consultation will take into account firmly the balance of opinion among those respondents?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am very concerned to hear what the noble Baroness has to say, and I hope that she will provide me with the evidence so that we can look into this further. There are 980 DfT-regulated ticket offices and that has been the case for a very long time. So if ticket offices are closing, as she says—again, I am not aware that they are—they also should have gone through the ticketing and settlement agreement. I would be very happy to look at the noble Baroness’s evidence.

[Baroness Whitaker (Lab)]

My Lords, the ticket office in my local station does not do advance tickets. How can a would-be passenger who wants to book ahead, and thus save quite a lot of money, get an advance ticket with no ticket office?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I cannot comment on the noble Baroness’s ticket office specifically, but 99% of transactions at ticket offices last year could have been made either through a ticket vending machine or online.

[Baroness Seccombe (Con)]

My Lords, I travel from Banbury to Marylebone every Monday. When I approach the ticket office there is at least one person ahead of me. I hope that there will be flexibility in this: maybe some stations do not need ticket offices, but places that are busy certainly do.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My noble friend is absolutely right. This is not a one-size-fits-all process; this is a consultation, and we will look to see what the independent passenger bodies say when they have finished reviewing all the consultation responses. We believe that that will be towards the end of October.

[Baroness Taylor of Stevenage (Lab)]

My Lords, my noble friend mentioned already the situation for disabled and elderly passengers. They already face barriers to using public transport, which will be made much worse by these proposals. Given that only 3% of blind people are able to use the ticket vending machine, how will the Government ensure that they can still use the railway network?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The Government have been consulting with various accessibility groups, alongside industry, over the period, and have taken their views into account. That has included invitations to the Royal National Institute of Blind People, the Royal National Institute for Deaf People, the National Autistic Society and the Multiple Sclerosis Society— I have an entire list, which I will not read out right now. Accessibility is at the heart of what we are doing here. We are trying to improve passenger service. The ORR’s latest annual consumer report shows that passenger assistance bookings have increased significantly. I am delighted to say that disabled people are coming back to the railways.

[Lord Beith (LD)]

My Lords, under these proposals, it will not be possible to buy a senior or disabled persons railcard at the vast majority of stations, whether there are staff there or not. Is that right?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I cannot say, because the consultation process is still going ahead. At this time, 43% of stations do not have any staff at all, so the noble Lord would not be able to get those railcards at those stations. All of those considerations are being taken into account. We want people to travel on the trains, and we need them to get their tickets and their railcards. All of those are very important considerations as we go through this consultation process.

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

My Lords, any consultation will clearly be a snapshot of the situation now or maybe in the near future. What happens if passengers at a certain station find that there is no help when they need it, particularly with ticket machines or for advice? How can they feed that into the process to make sure that this problem is rectified?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My noble friend makes an important point, and of course that could happen now. I encourage anybody who feels they do not get the service that they need from the railways to get in touch with that train operating company. It could be that circumstances have changed, such as more people or different types of people travelling from a certain station.

[Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister has referenced blind people. When I was in my local station the other day, getting my ticket to come to London, I stood behind a blind person who was completely confused and had no idea how to use the ticket machine. The chap in the ticket office was able to help and comfort her and tell her that she would be alright. I find it impossible to understand what the Minister is trying to make us believe—that people like that will not be disadvantaged. They will be.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

That same person does not have to be in that ticket office in order to help them. That is what we are saying. There are all sorts of different people who need different help, and having somebody in a ticket office whose time is not being used effectively does not help passengers.

[Baroness Meacher (CB)]

My Lords, I was not planning to ask a question but I find this a completely shocking proposal. Disabled and vulnerable people will be disadvantaged. Can the Minister give us a generic email address—publicly, so that it goes out across the BBC and everywhere else—to which people can write in and express their objections?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I cannot give a generic email address, although I am sure the noble Baroness could contact Transport Focus. The train operating companies have publicised this consultation widely. It is worth pointing out what the Rail Minister said very recently in a Westminster Hall debate. The consultation is ongoing, but, at this stage, he does not

“expect a material reduction in the number of hours where ticketing expertise is available at stations”.—[Official Report, Commons, 13/9/23; col. 346WH.]

That will help people who have sight deficiencies, as the noble Baroness mentioned, and it will help all people who need greater assistance at train stations.

Public Charge Point Regulations 2023

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Wednesday 20th September 2023 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

That the draft Regulations laid before the House on 11 July be approved.

Relevant document: 48th Report from Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee. Considered in Grand Committee on 13 September.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.

[Baroness Deech (CB)]

My Lords, I wish to say something about the regulations before we approve them. I speak as an electric car driver. I note that it has taken about five years for this House to come near to installing a couple of points.

The regulations are welcome, but they are only a tiny step forward. We will not be able to persuade the public to take up electric vehicles when the charging and the infrastructure are so lacking. These regulations do very little to improve the situation. They will not apply to anything that has less than an 8 kilowatt charge, workplace charge points, points for a specific car make, or use by a visitor to residential premises or micro-businesses. They do not apply to blocks of flats and they exclude slow charge points. They will take us only a step forward towards contactless. Most people, if they use charge points, still have to go around with a wallet full of membership cards of different organisations.

In the spirit of the Question put by the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, earlier, will the Government promise that there will be more pressure to bring on board uniform electric charging points all over the country speedily?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness for intervening. She reiterated the same points that she made when this statutory instrument was debated in the Moses Room. I covered all the points she raised in my response; noble Lords might want to look at that. I very much hope that she will listen to the Prime Minister’s statement in a few minutes time and feel reassured that the Government are absolutely behind zero-emission vehicles and recognise the need to build the infrastructure such that uptake is ever increasing.

Motion agreed.

Airports Slot Allocation (Alleviation of Usage Requirements) (No. 2) Regulations 2023

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Wednesday 20th September 2023 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

That the draft Regulations laid before the House on 18 July be approved.

Relevant document: 49th Report from Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee. Considered in Grand Committee on 19 September.

[Lord Trefgarne (Con)]

My Lords, I would like to ask a brief question on this matter. As your Lordships will be aware, there have recently been two terrible disasters in Morocco and Libya. Can my noble friend the Minister confirm that the slots required for emergency supplies for those disasters were made available at the right time at both Heathrow and Gatwick?

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

I can confirm that slots were available. In these circumstances, ad hoc slots are available during the day. The Government are not responsible for slot allocation; however, there are mechanisms in place such that those flights get slots.

Motion agreed.