Rachel Reeves
Main Page: Rachel Reeves (Labour - Leeds West and Pudsey)Department Debates - View all Rachel Reeves's debates with the HM Treasury
(3 days, 22 hours ago)
Commons ChamberI welcome the hon. Member to his place.
The Government encourage savings to ensure that people have decent incomes in their retirement, for instance through pension tax relief. I welcome the strong cross-party support for automatic enrolment that has been received since 2005, and the fact that 11 million more people are now saving as a result. The Government have also launched a pensions review which will ensure that money set aside for retirement is working both for pensioners and for the UK economy.
I appreciate that Members on both sides of the House will have questions for me about the tax system today. I remind them that tax announcements will be made in the Budget on 30 October, alongside an independent forecast from the Office for Budget Responsibility. This will be a Budget to fix the foundations, to rebuild Britain, and to ensure that working people are better off.
Do the Government recognise the importance of workers’ saving for their later years? Do they recognise that any moves to reduce the 25% tax-free drawdown, or reductions in tax relief on pension contributions, would be a disincentive, and would actually lead to more pensioner poverty?
I recognise that for many people who work hard and save for retirement, that money is not enough. I believe that every penny saved in a pension should produce a decent return. Billions of pounds of investment could be unlocked in the UK economy and could work better for those saving for retirement, and we believe that the reforms we seek to introduce through the pensions review could increase their pension pots by £11,000. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions is leading the review that I mentioned to ensure that pensioners receive a good deal in retirement, and that people who sacrifice and work hard to save for their retirement have a decent return on their investment.
Pubs are the lifeblood of our local communities. In my constituency, the home of British brewing, we are blessed with wonderful pubs—
I am not going to speculate about what will be in the Budget, but I am absolutely determined to ensure that working people are better off. Under the last Government the tax burden reached its highest level for 70 years, and ordinary working people paid the price for that. This will be a Budget to fix the foundations of the economy after the mess left by the last Government, to rebuild Britain, and to make working people better off.
Investment is at the heart of this Government’s growth mission, alongside stability and reform. With robust fiscal rules and respect for economic institutions, the Government are building the confidence needed to deliver private sector investment. It is vital that the tax system also supports growth, and today I can confirm that the Government will outline a tax road map for business at the Budget to offer the certainty that encourages investment and gives business the confidence to grow, including our commitment to cap corporation tax at 25% for the duration of this Parliament and to retain full expensing.
I thank the Chancellor for her response. Last year, the north-east attracted 67 foreign direct investment projects, creating over 4,000 jobs. In the key growth sectors, from advanced manufacturing to health and tech, those who know the north-east know our huge potential, and I know that the Chancellor recognises that too. What is she doing with the Mayor of the North East, Kim McGuinness, to ensure that more global investors are aware of the north-east’s strengths and that we can attract more inward investment, creating more jobs?
My hon. Friend makes an important contribution on behalf of her constituents, based on her background of working in science and technology before entering this House. My hon. Friend is absolutely right to say that the north-east has huge potential to grow the economy through sectors including advanced manufacturing, health, technology and our creative industries, and this Government will work with our local mayors, including Kim McGuiness, to develop ambitious, long-term local growth plans that reflect the north-east’s strengths. We will look to address some of the barriers to growth and support delivery of our national industrial strategy, as well as narrowing some of the inequalities that have persisted for far too long.
International investment is important for the aviation and aerospace sectors, and aviation and aerospace are important for my constituents in Central Ayrshire, with 55% of aerospace jobs based in Prestwick. Can my right hon. Friend tell me what more the Government will do to ensure continued international investment in these sectors?
I thank my hon. Friend for his question, and I know that his experience as His Majesty’s trade commissioner in India means that he understands the importance of global trade and investment to the UK economy, including the Scottish economy. Last week, I had the opportunity to visit the National Manufacturing Institute Scotland and see at first hand the excellent work that is going on to promote innovation in a whole range of sectors, including aerospace and satellite technology. The UK already produces around half of the world’s large civil aircraft wings and engines, and the aerospace sector added £11 billion to the UK economy last year. The Government are putting investment at the heart of our growth strategy, including by supporting advanced manufacturing in Scotland, and I look forward to working with my hon. Friend on this endeavour.
I thank the Chancellor for her further reassurance to businesses this morning. London is the top choice in Europe for inward investment and is home to more headquarters than any other European city, including many based in Stratford, in my constituency. How will the Government support our capital city to continue its success on the global stage, and ensure that London can help encourage onward investment and support wider economic growth around the country?
I thank my hon. Friend for her question and welcome her to her place. The regeneration of Stratford after the Olympic games is truly phenomenal, and I know that she will be a strong voice for her constituency and help to deliver the growth mission, which is the No. 1 priority of this new Government. The success of London’s economy will be integral to delivering that mission, and we will work with the Mayor of London, Sadiq Khan, and with our MPs to ensure that economic growth benefits people in the capital and across the country, ensuring that we narrow the gap between rich and poor and also showcase the huge opportunities that London has on the international stage. We will be hosting an international investment summit in London on 14 October, bringing together some of the biggest global investors in the world, to showcase everything our great country has to offer.
Investment in our rural economy must focus heavily on rewarding our farmers for the food they produce and the environment they protect. The last Government ringfenced £2.4 billion a year for England to support our farming sector. Through indifference or incompetence, they underspent by £100 million last year and betrayed our farmers in doing so. Will the Chancellor confirm to me, my farmers and this House that she will not bake in that underspend, which was the fault of the last Conservative Government, and that she will at least commit to ringfencing what is already invested in farming? If not, hopefully she will back the Liberal Democrats’ call to back £1 billion extra into farming so that we can feed our—
Order. Mr Farron, please do not take complete advantage. I think you have slightly strayed from the original question. Chancellor, if you want to have a go at it, by all means do so, but I will understand if you do not.
The rural economy plays an incredibly important role in our economic prosperity as a country, and boosting food security and biodiversity is obviously incredibly important to a whole range of this Government’s objectives. I will ensure that the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs hears loud and clear the message from the hon. Member, and I am sure he will include it as part of his submission to the spending review on 30 October.
I thank the Chancellor for that and I welcome her to her place. It is important to encourage inward investment. It is also important to address the issue of youth unemployment. As of the first quarter of 2024, the youth unemployment rate in Northern Ireland was 5%, compared with 3.8% the month before. What discussions has the Chancellor had with the Northern Ireland Assembly Minister in charge to ensure that youth unemployment in Northern Ireland will be reduced to an acceptable figure, which should be zero?
A huge amount of inward investment goes to Northern Ireland, as the hon. Gentleman knows, and it is important that young people are able to take advantage of those huge opportunities in our economy, whether in financial services, advanced manufacturing, shipbuilding or the many other sectors that are important to Northern Ireland. It is a travesty that something like one in five young people today are not in employment, education or training. The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions will be bringing forward a White Paper to ensure that everyone who can work does work and is given the support to succeed, both in Northern Ireland and across the United Kingdom.
This Government support the triple lock. As a result, the state pension is worth £900 more than it was this time last year. In April, it will go up again by the highest of inflation, average wage growth or 2.5%. Our commitment to the triple lock is for not just one year but the duration of this Parliament. In addition, pensioners will continue to benefit from free eye tests, free prescriptions and free bus passes, and those pensioners most in need will continue to receive winter fuel payments alongside the pension credit.
I thank the Chancellor for her answer, but nearly 22,000 pensioners in North Shropshire are forecast to lose their winter fuel payments very soon, just as energy prices for the average household are about to go up by 10%. Many of my pensioners live in bungalows and older housing stock, which is expensive to heat. A lot of them have been in touch with me to say that they are worried sick about this winter. We know the Chancellor has difficult choices to make, and we accept that, but will she consider that the broadest shoulders are not those of pensioners who earn less than the minimum wage and are about to lose this vital support?
I understand the concerns that the hon. Lady sets out. The state pension is worth £900 more than it was a year ago and energy bills are lower this winter than they were last winter. As she points out, we inherited a £22 billion black hole from the previous Government, who had made unfunded spending commitments with no idea how to pay for them. When I became Chancellor, I undertook an immediate audit of the spending situation to understand the scale of the challenge, and I made difficult decisions—some very difficult decisions—to put the public finances on a sustainable footing. They were tough decisions, but they were the right decisions in the circumstances we faced. They included the decision to make the winter fuel payment better targeted, so pensioners who need it most will still get it alongside pension credit. Targeting the winter fuel payment will save around £1.5 billion a year to support public finances.
Some 21,000 pensioners in my constituency of Torbay will be impacted by the cut. In Devon and Cornwall, almost 90% of pensioners will be impacted by it. While many of us acknowledge that the Chancellor was left with a massive financial challenge when she came into the post, I remain extremely concerned about the residents who have reached out to me and colleagues with their major concerns about making ends meet as we enter the winter period. They have had no time to save and it is a complete shock to them. What assurances can the Chancellor give that the Government will support those who are most vulnerable? If those measures fail, what assurances can she give that she will scrap the proposal?
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his question and welcome him to his place. He will be a powerful representative for the people of Torbay. Like him, I want to ensure that the lowest income pensioners get the support they are entitled to. Under the previous Government, 800,000 pensioner households that were entitled to pension credit did not receive it. That is why this Government are taking action to encourage the uptake of pension credit to ensure that the poorest pensioners—those who are not even receiving the minimum income guarantee—are getting it.
We are working with organisations such as Age UK and local authorities. All local authorities, including those in Torbay, have been written to about how they can play their part in identifying those pensioners who are entitled to pension credit but are not getting it. The Department for Work and Pensions will also bring together the administration of pension credit and housing benefit, so that pensioner households receiving housing benefit will also receive any pension credit they are entitled to—something the previous Government deferred for years, despite knowing that the poorest pensioners were missing out.
The Chancellor’s announcement of cuts to the winter fuel payment was quickly followed by news of a 10% increase in the energy price cap. South Devon has a higher than average number of pensioners, many of whom, particularly those in rural areas, are living in fuel poverty. Many of my constituents are struggling to meet the cost of heating, but do not quite qualify for pension credit. They, and thousands of vulnerable people across the country, are deeply anxious about what this winter has in store for them. Will the Chancellor take this opportunity to spell out exactly how she plans to tackle fuel poverty among the elderly?
I welcome the hon. Lady to her place. Pensioners in South Devon, in common with pensioners in all our constituencies, will receive a basic state pension that is worth £900 more than it was a year ago, and energy prices are lower this winter than they were last winter. Many of her constituents will be entitled to pension credit but, because of a failure to act by the last Government, are not currently receiving it. We all need to play our part in ensuring that everybody gets the help they are entitled to. We should all ensure that our poorest pensioners get that support from both pension credit and the winter fuel payment associated with it.
The village of Copley, in my constituency, is the snowiest in England and we have many pensioners in receipt of the basic state pension who are, none the less, in fuel poverty. They are not entitled to pension credit. They live in cold, stone-built houses. What assurance can the Chancellor give to those pensioners that this Government will help to warm their homes and ensure they do not struggle to heat their homes this winter?
This Government have committed to insulate an additional 5 million homes during the course of this Parliament to ensure that energy bills are as low as possible, saving people money and ensuring that their homes are warmer. That will help my hon. Friend’s constituents in Copley and constituents across the country.
Will the Chancellor explain to the House the damage done to pensioners’ livelihoods by the previous Government’s economic incompetence and their decision to cover up the £22 billion black hole in the public finances?
My hon. Friend is absolutely right to remind us of the dire inheritance that this Government face. The previous Government made spending commitment after spending commitment with absolutely no idea of how to pay for them. From road and rail projects to A-levels and the Rwanda deal, we saw £22 billion of unfunded commitments. We will fix the foundations of the economy, rebuild Britain and ensure that working people are better off. We will fix the mess that the last Government left.
Will the Chancellor confirm that a state pension increase will be announced at the Budget and that it will be equivalent to wage growth, inflation or 2.5%—whichever is higher?
The Government have committed to the triple lock not just for this year, but for the duration of this Parliament. That means that pensioners are £900 better off than they were a year ago. Based on September earnings and inflation data, we will uprate pensions next year by whichever is higher: 2.5%, inflation or average earnings. We are ensuring that pensioners get the pensions that they are entitled to and have contributed to.
Ten years ago, the now Chancellor argued in this House that winter fuel payments should be means-tested and cut for “the richest pensioners”. The Chancellor’s 10-year campaign has now come to fruition and she has proposed removing the winter fuel payment from pensioners on just £13,000 a year. Does she still think that a pensioner on £13,000 a year is rich?
What came to an end in July was 14 years of a Conservative Government who presided over a fall in living standards, the highest tax burden in 70 years, a debt, as a share of our economy, of almost 100%, and a £22 billion black hole in the public finances just this year. What we have not heard from those on the Opposition Front Bench, or indeed from any Conservative Member of Parliament, is an apology for the mess that they have left this country in, which this Government are now picking up.
Sustained economic growth is the only route to improving the prosperity of our country and the living standards of working people. That is why we have already taken a number of actions to begin delivering on our growth mission —the No. 1 priority of this new Labour Government—which includes a series of planning reforms to get Britain building; the establishment of a national wealth fund to bring in private sector investment; the announcement of a pensions review to unlock growth, boost investment and deliver better returns to pensioners; the launch of Skills England; and the announcement of the forthcoming White Paper on getting Britain working again. This Government are determined to boost growth and improve living standards, and, by doing so, to have the money that we need to fund our vital public services.
The delivery of so much of what the Chancellor describes runs through local government. What progress has been made on giving local councils longer-term funding settlements?
My hon. Friend is absolutely right to make that point. The Government are committed to delivering longer-term certainty for local authorities, as part of our wider commitment to a more empowered, accountable and sustainable local government system that will support strong public services in all our communities. The Government will set out further details on our plans for local government funding in the upcoming Budget and spending review on 30 October.
This year alone, two more high street bank branches have closed in Monmouthshire, bringing the total to eight in the past two years. My constituents now find themselves struggling to access basic banking services—particularly in Caldicot. I was recently handed a petition that had been signed by more than 3,500 constituents. I am sure that the Chancellor understands the importance of high street banking not only to our constituents but to local businesses and local economic growth. What progress has she made in her work with colleagues in the Welsh Government to support high street banks and hubs in Monmouthshire and across Wales?
I welcome my hon. Friend to her place; it is already obvious that she will be a strong voice for the people of Monmouthshire. In our party manifesto, we committed to rolling out 350 banking hubs in communities like those she speaks about, which have lost multiple banks in the past few years. The Economic Secretary to the Treasury will happily meet my hon. Friend to work on achieving one such banking hub in her constituency. That is an offer to Members right across the House; so many of our constituencies have lost bank branches in the past few years. For older people, small businesses and families, the lack of access to cash can be devastating, and we are determined to reverse it with the roll-out of the new banking hubs.
Growth and additional runway capacity at Gatwick is again on the agenda. My constituents who work at that airport and those who fly from there benefit from its stability and reach, but it needs to be recognised that any expansion of flights requires a careful balance between additional homes and jobs. Will the Chancellor confirm that suitable growth will not come at the expense of communities such as mine without proper consultation and acknowledgement of its impacts?
I thank the hon. Lady for that question. This Government were pleased to sign off the expansion of London City airport, because we recognise how important aviation is to our economy, getting growth and investment into the UK. Of course, it is right that we always take local views into account and make sure that any investment in, or expansion of, airports comes with the infrastructure that is needed for local communities, but the answer to decisions—whether on road, rail, energy or aviation—cannot always be no. If it is, we will continue with the situation we faced over the past 14 years: low growth, deteriorating living standards and worsening public infrastructure. We cannot continue like that.
As I see it, the taxpayer is now accountable to the state. The state is not accountable to the taxpayer, and I think that a lot of our lack of growth is rooted in the fact that many of our offices run by the state are not working, and are actually strangling our economy. I would like to know what the Chancellor is going to do to ensure that Government is as accountable to the taxpayer as the taxpayer is to Government.
That is the purpose of elections, and at the last election, this Government achieved a sizeable majority for our missions, including growing the economy, improving living standards and making working people better off. We have just got started, and that is what we are absolutely determined to do, in order to deliver on the mandate we got on 4 July.
I thank the hon. Gentleman for that question, I think. On 14 October, we are hosting an international investment summit, welcoming to London some of the biggest investors in the world. In the two months that I have been in this role, I have met over 300 business leaders, talking to them about the huge opportunities to invest in our great country, including in life sciences, financial services, the creative industries and low-carbon technologies. The opportunities are endless, and this Government are determined to work with business to ensure that we bring good jobs, investment and prosperity right across the United Kingdom.
This Government have inherited a £22 billion black hole in the public finances, and rectifying the situation requires tough choices. We will also clamp down on egregious spending and halve Government spending on consultancy, which will save £500 million next year. Increasing consultancy spend has been rife across Government for the past four years. It is up 55% at the Department for Transport, 137% at the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office, and a staggering 416% at the Home Office. It is no wonder taxes are so high and public services are so poor when the last Government frittered away taxpayers’ money with no concern. I will treat taxpayers’ money with respect, and we will fix the foundations of our economy so that we can rebuild Britain and make working people better off.
I welcome the Chancellor to her place. Notwithstanding what she has just said, can she tell the House why she has made the political decision to scrap the commitment to spend at least 2.5% of GDP on defence, undermining our support for Ukraine, and has instead prioritised giving her union paymasters inflation-busting pay rises that have only led to more unions calling for more strikes and more pay?
Let me respond directly on the issue of Ukraine. In my first couple of weeks in this job, I had the pleasure of meeting Minister Marchenko from Ukraine, and made a commitment to him to go ahead with the extraordinary revenue acceleration programme. It is important that we work together across the House to support the Ukrainian people against the Russian invasion. In the previous Parliament, Labour always supported the Government when they took action to support the Ukrainian people, and I hope that that cross-party support can continue.
Can I remind everybody that this is topical questions? I have a big list to get through. Rachael Maskell will give us a good example.
The basic state pension is worth £900 more than it was a year ago, and will go up again in April next year because of the triple lock, which we have committed to for the duration of this Parliament. We have already written to York council and are working with local authorities across the country to boost take-up of pension credit, because this Government, unlike the last Government, are determined to ensure that 800,000 people entitled to pension credit actually receive it.
When the Chancellor was sitting on the Opposition Benches she repeatedly attacked cronyism, so will she tell the House whether she told the Treasury permanent secretary that Ian Corfield had made a donation to her before she got him appointed as a director in the Treasury—yes or no?
All Governments appoint people to the civil service. The donation from Ian Corfield was declared over a year ago in the proper way, and we answered all the questions in the right way that the civil service asked when we made that appointment. Ian Corfield is supporting this Government in hosting the international investment summit, which will bring hundreds of global investors to the UK next month.
I think that means the answer is no. The ministerial code states:
“Ministers must ensure that no conflict arises, or could reasonably be perceived to arise, between their public duties and their private interests, financial or otherwise”.
That did not happen. Will the right hon. Lady tell the House why cronyism is wrong under the Conservatives but acceptable under Labour?
The right hon. Gentleman has a bit of a brass neck criticising this Government, after the appointments and the partying at Downing Street that we saw under the last Conservative Government, and the billions of pounds’ worth of contracts handed out to friends and donors of the Conservative party. That is why this Government are appointing a covid corruption commissioner to get that money back for taxpayers; because unlike the last Government, we are determined that taxpayers’ money is treated with respect, and not handed out to donors of the party.
Yes, absolutely; pension credit can be backdated by up to three months, and we will ensure that that happens. We are also working closely with Liverpool city council to ensure that the constituents in Liverpool Wavertree, and indeed in all our constituencies, are getting the support that they entitled to. The poorest pensioners, who are entitled to pension credit, should get it. It is a travesty that 800,000 missed out under the last Conservative Government. We will ensure that pensioners entitled to support get it.
Before I became a Member of Parliament I was an economist at the Bank of England and I respect the independence of the Bank of England. The previous Government undermined that independence. That contributed to the economic chaos that we saw under the last Conservative Government. This Government will never go down that route.
The Conservative party crashed the economy and then wrecked the public finances, leaving us with a £22 billion black hole. The shadow Chancellor is not willing to be straight about the damage he did, and is now trying to pass the buck to independent civil servants. I will always be honest about the public finances and take the tough decisions that we need to fix the foundations of our economy.
In July, borrowing stood at £3.1 billion, well ahead of the OBR’s forecast of £0.1 billion. Does the Chancellor agree that she could have reduced the national debt had she chosen not to reward her trade union paymasters by spending £10 billion on inflation-busting pay rises?
As the hon. Gentleman knows, Government borrowing is running at £4.7 billion higher than the OBR forecast because the previous Government made unfunded commitments without any idea of how they were going to be paid for. The previous Government set the mandate for the independent pay review bodies, and we have honoured the recommendations of those bodies to ensure that our armed forces, our police officers, our nurses and our teachers got a pay rise. I think that is the right thing to do. If he does not, I wonder how he justifies that to public sector workers in his constituency.
The Chancellor’s decision to cut the winter fuel payment is forecast to save £1.5 billion. Can she advise the House what other options she considered for making savings in the Department for Work and Pensions budget before deciding to make this cut?
The black hole we inherited was £22 billion. We announced in the statement on 29 July £5.5 billion of savings to reduce the size of that black hole, but the hon. Gentleman can see there is still work to be done and we will be setting out further measures in the Budget on 30 October to get a grip of the public finances.
A forthcoming Transparency International report has identified 28 contracts worth £4.1 billion that were awarded to parties with direct political connections to the Conservative party, so can the Chancellor update us on the progress in appointing the covid corruption commissioner and whether they will take evidence from corruption campaigners such as Transparency International?
The economic potential of the Brigg and Immingham constituency and the wider Humber region is heavily dependent on the renewable energy sector. However, there is a cloud on the horizon, with the future of Scunthorpe steelworks in doubt. Can the Chancellor give an assurance that if there are redundancies at Scunthorpe, there will be a generous package of support for workers and investment through the local authority to redevelop the area?
The hon. Gentleman speaks powerfully about the huge opportunities at Immingham and on the whole east coast through renewable energy and carbon capture and storage. Part of the reason for the national wealth fund is to invest in industries such as CCS, but also in our crucial steel sector, which is important to so many of the other Government ambitions on growing our economy. We are determined to support the steel sector through that investment from the national wealth fund.
The Chancellor’s plans for growth are welcome in Cornwall, but in the meantime we are relying upon shared prosperity fund and towns deal money. The deadlines for the completion of those schemes are March 2025 and March ’26. To ensure that investment is not lost, will the Chancellor consider extending the deadlines for completion of those schemes by up to 12 months?
I thank my hon. Friend for that question and welcome her to her place. She speaks powerfully on behalf of the people of Cornwall. The spending review will be the appropriate time to look at the shared prosperity funds and what resource we can give to the people of Cornwall, and I am sure my hon. Friend will work with the relevant Secretaries of State to ensure those representations are heard.
The Chancellor would have known, in advance of the cut to the winter fuel payment and the stripping of £160 million from pensioners in Scotland, that Scottish pensioners suffer the lowest temperatures, rural Scottish pensioners live in some of the oldest houses on these islands, and most Scottish pensioners in rural areas are off the gas grid. Knowing that, what discussions did she have with her 37 new Scottish Labour MPs about pushing Scottish pensioners into fuel poverty?
I would just note that the Scottish Government have decided to mirror what the wider UK Government are doing rather than using the tax powers that they have. That is a decision the Scottish Government have made given the fiscal situation they face; we face a similar issue with a £22 billion black hole in the public finances.
I welcome this Government’s plan to get Britain building again with a commitment to build 1.5 million homes across our country. There are also 1 million homes for which councils have given planning consent, and those with skin in the game need help and support to get those houses unlocked. What steps are the Government taking in that regard?
I thank my hon. Friend for the question and welcome him to his place. As a former local government leader he knows the huge opportunities there are to build the homes our country desperately needs. We have made a commitment to build 1.5 million homes during the duration of this Parliament. That will require making choices to call in planning decisions, as we have already done in our first week in office with regard to four specific housing developments.
Thousands of pensioners in my constituency have worked hard all their lives and are now worried at the prospect of losing their winter fuel payment, upon which they rely. Will the right hon. Lady reconsider and reverse her decision?
The increases in the basic state pension mean those constituents are £900 better off than they were a year ago, and of course energy bills are lower this year than they were last year. But it is important that we ensure that the 800,000 people who missed out on pension credit under the previous Conservative Government now get access to that support, because they are the poorest pensioners and at the moment they are living in poverty because the previous Government failed to sign them up to pension credit.
As Departments are preparing their spending review submissions, will the Chancellor and her team consider allowing the international development budget to be on the same footing as the research and development budget, and looked at over 10 years, so that we can get back to the 0.7% figure? Will she be willing to meet me and a delegation to discuss the benefits of that approach to such an important budget?