Armed Forces Commissioner Bill
Luke Pollard ExcerptsMonday 18th November 2024
(1 month, 1 week ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Armed Forces Commissioner Bill 2024-26 View all Armed Forces Commissioner Bill 2024-26 Debates Read Hansard Text Watch Debate Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Amanda Martin (Portsmouth North) (Lab)
I declare an interest and a huge sense of pride in taking part in this debate: I have cousins who serve in the Army and the Royal Air Force, and a son in the Royal Navy, all of whom are under 30. Hopefully, because of the Bill, they are at the start of long and successful armed forces careers. Also, my constituency of Portsmouth North is the home of the Royal Navy. I am glad that the Minister for the Armed Forces, my hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth Sutton and Devonport (Luke Pollard), is not here to argue about that.
Amanda Martin
I meant the other one—my hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth Moor View (Fred Thomas). I am proud to be part of a mission-led Government but, as the Secretary of State said earlier, no mission from a Labour Government is complete unless it is our first duty to keep our country safe. Peace and security are hard earned and require constant vigilance and a well-staffed and—dare I aspire to say—a happy armed forces workforce.
This Bill is groundbreaking in its mission, with 183,000 service personnel and their families at its heart. It provides the opportunity and the authority for an independent commissioner to investigate welfare complaints not only from those serving, but from their families. It also gives the commissioner the opportunity and the authority to horizon scan, to highlight trends, to visit our bases and listen to personnel and their families, to launch investigations when needed and, ultimately, to improve the world of work and the lives of those who so often put this country first.
I welcome the stance of the whole House and the cross-party commitment to this Bill. Real change cannot come quickly enough. Attrition rates continue to grow and morale among our service personnel continues to plummet. At the moment, recruitment is outstripped by those leaving, so retention is a real concern. Despite 81% of our service personnel feeling supported by their families and their colleagues, it is upsetting that almost 50% do not feel that their families and their family life are supported by the service. Impact on family and personal life remains the top factor influencing those leaving the services.
It would be remiss of me not to note that in my Portsmouth North constituency the concerns around armed forces housing are very high. With three quarters of our personnel living in service accommodation, it is vital to be able to hear the voice of those serving and their families, and to use that to improve housing, communities, childcare and the lives of our forces and their families. This Government are serious about keeping our country safe and making our armed services a priority. With a pay rise already awarded, with an announcement on childcare provision already made, with a new cyber-route and the cutting of red tape in recruitment, and now with a Bill providing an armed forces champion, with real voices and real experiences at its centre, this is a step to building back that eroded trust and pride. Just as I do when my son returns from sea, we as a Government are putting our arms around service personnel and their families.
This will not be easy, and it will not be quick. Issues will be uncovered that will be uncomfortable and possibly costly. Cultures might need to change, the Secretary of State will be presented with reports and independent investigations, and Parliament will need to address these issues. Success or failure will be measured and voiced, as it should be. Will the Minister assure me that, however difficult the outcomes, the reports and the words that we hear from our service personnel, we will commit to having a truly independent commissioner, so that our armed services feel they have the trust to go to them? In delivering this Bill into law, we will not only say, but show by our actions, how much we value the service and dedication of our armed forces personnel and their families.
The Minister for the Armed Forces (Luke Pollard)
I thank all Members who have spoken in this debate. A number of Members spoke about the importance of this time of year. Last week, I was on the Falkland Islands to represent the Government and Falklands veterans from Plymouth, to lay a wreath at the war memorial that remembers the 255 members of UK armed forces who died in the 1982 conflict, and to lay a further wreath to remember the 49 members of our armed forces who have died subsequently in accidents and other incidents on the Falkland Islands. Remembrance is a special time of year. It is an opportunity for all of us, whatever our walk of life, to thank those who have served, to remember those people who never came home, and to offer our support to those people who came back forever changed. I am grateful to Members across the House for their participation in remembrance events, and the support they have shown to our armed forces and veterans community.
I am grateful to Members across the House for their contributions to the debate. It has been truly heartwarming to listen to speeches from all sides of the House about the passion and respect for, and dignity of, members of the armed forces. I will touch on a few of the questions asked, and I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent Central (Gareth Snell), the right hon. Member for South West Wiltshire (Dr Murrison), the hon. Member for Gordon and Buchan (Harriet Cross), my hon. Friends the Members for Slough (Mr Dhesi) and for Plymouth Moor View (Fred Thomas), the hon. Member for Exmouth and Exeter East (David Reed), my hon. Friend the Member for North Durham (Luke Akehurst), the hon. Member for Angus and Perthshire Glens (Dave Doogan), my hon. Friend the Member for Scarborough and Whitby (Alison Hume) and the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon). I also thank my hon. Friends the Members for Leyton and Wanstead (Mr Bailey), for Portsmouth North (Amanda Martin), for Colchester (Pam Cox), for Halesowen (Alex Ballinger), for Dunfermline and Dollar (Graeme Downie), for Livingston (Gregor Poynton), for Hartlepool (Mr Brash), for Bracknell (Peter Swallow), for Broxtowe (Juliet Campbell), for Dudley (Sonia Kumar), for South West Norfolk (Terry Jermy) and for Aldershot (Alex Baker). I also thank the Front-Bench spokespersons for their contributions: the hon. Members for South Suffolk (James Cartlidge) and for Epsom and Ewell (Helen Maguire), and the right hon. Member for Rayleigh and Wickford (Mr Francois). That is a tour de force of our nations and regions, and we should all be proud of the way our armed forces are held in such regard across our country.
I pay special tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Hogsmeade Station—my hon. Friend the Member for Scarborough and Whitby—for her brilliant maiden speech and for her words about Jo Cox. Jo Cox inspired both in life and in death. I hope there will be many more brilliant women who follow in my hon. Friend’s footsteps and join her on these Benches because of the work Jo Cox inspired.
Members from across the House raised a number of issues. I will attempt, in summing up, to deal with a number of them, but if I do not cover them all, I would be grateful if Members could continue this debate, because the Bill is important. It is important that we get this right. It is important that we set the parameters for the Armed Forces Commissioner—the powers and the role they will have—and in particular stressing the impartiality and independence of the role. That is absolutely key.
I was struck by just how many Members began their speeches with an assessment of where we are now. My hon. Friend the Member for Aldershot described personnel as feeling worn down. The hon. Member for Exmouth and Exeter East described the significant shortfalls in recruitment and an exodus of skills and personnel in recent years, and he is correct to do so. A number of Members related that to the evidence the MOD collects in the continuous attitude surveys. The falling morale in the attitudes of our armed forces personnel really stand as a roll call of shame for the previous Government. It is not the fault of armed forces personnel, but a collective failure to address the issues that underpin service life. That is one of the reasons why this Government proposed an Armed Forces Commissioner and why we must get it right to provide a direct contact for our armed forces personnel and their families.
A number of Members spoke about the culture in our armed forces. The vast majority of people who serve our country do so with the right values and the right attitude, but there are far too many examples where that is not the case. I am grateful to the hon. Member for Epsom and Ewell for raising the Atherton review. The report by Sarah Atherton in the previous Parliament should be compulsory reading for all Members of Parliament. I say to new Members who have joined us since the 2024 general election that it is well worth a google to understand the experience of so many women in our armed forces—it is worth having on your bedside table.
My hon. Friend the Member for Leyton and Wanstead spoke very passionately about bringing to justice perpetrators who act against the spirit of our armed forces and diminish the experience of service life for so many other people. He is correct to do so. My hon. Friend the Member for Dunfermline and Dollar likewise spoke about the importance of lifting our culture. The role of the Armed Forces Commissioner has been specifically designed so that they can investigate issues related to general service welfare matters for those who serve and their families. It is not for me as a Minister, or for the Secretary of State or anyone else on the Government Bench, to set out what the Armed Forces Commissioner should investigate. It is for us to give that person the powers and the ability to get to the heart of the problems.
I am grateful to all Members who very kindly gave the Front Bench words of advice. My hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth Moor View said it will not be easy reading the commissioner’s reports, as did my hon. Friend the Member for Livingston. The hon. Member for Angus and Perthshire Glens described the Government as leaving themselves open to scrutiny. My hon. Friend the Member for Bracknell spoke about the proof being in the pudding. They are all right to do so. We are deliberately opening ourselves to scrutiny because it will improve the lives of those people who serve and their families. It is a strength of this Government that we feel open to wanting additional scrutiny and I am grateful to Members who encouraged it. I further encourage Members to look at how these powers can be strengthened and scrutinised over the course of the Bill’s passage.
A number of Members spoke about the Bill’s application to veterans. I am grateful to all who spoke about the important contribution of those people who have served our armed forces and served our nations in years past. The Bill is deliberately drawn to focus relentlessly on armed forces personnel serving today and their families. That is not because we wish to discard the experiences of veterans; far from it. It is because we believe—looking at the continuous attitude surveys, the falling morale and more people leaving our armed forces than joining—there is a problem that needs to be addressed for those people who serve our nation.
The powers of the Armed Forces Commissioner are deliberately drawn to focus on those people who serve. It is explicit in the Bill that we are dealing with people who serve in uniform today and their families, and we make no apology for doing so. However, a number of issues have been raised in the debate, and I shall be grateful if those who have raised them continue to take them up with the Minister for Veterans and People, my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham Selly Oak (Al Carns), who is keen for us not only to support veterans but, in particular, to look at the existing programmes and policies to ensure that they are worthwhile.
Jim Shannon
Many soldiers and other service personnel suffer from post-traumatic stress disorder and may be reluctant to come forward and seek help, but the people who know them best are their families, who can do so on their behalf. That is the great thing about the Bill: it provides that opportunity.
Luke Pollard
The hon. Gentleman is right about the important role that families play in supporting not just serving personnel but veterans. I am grateful to him for mentioning families, and to a number of other Members who spoke passionately about that important role that they play and the need for the commissioner to be open to representations from family members. I am particularly grateful to the hon. Member for Slough, who spoke about bereaved families in an intervention during the Secretary of State’s speech. The Bill does not give an exact definition of family members; that will be included in secondary legislation that will be published between the House of Commons and House of Lords stages. I am glad that the hon. Member for Epsom and Ewell talked about kinship carers, and I should be happy to discuss them with her. We want to get this right, and putting such a definition in the Bill will enable it to be locked in. I want Members on both sides of the House to feel empowered to challenge us and help us to provide that definition, so that the Bill is drafted adequately to help serving personnel and their families to deal with service life—and that must include all the shapes and sizes of families as they exist today.
A number of Members mentioned the spending of 2.5% of GDP on defence, to which the Government are committed. The Bill states explicitly that the Armed Forces Commissioner will deal with general service welfare matters. I think it important for me to put that on record, because the commissioner will be dealing with the lived experience of those who serve and their families. This will not involve looking into “Secret Squirrel” operations or operational deployments, or the spending of 2.5%, 2.4% or any other figure; it will involve looking specifically at the welfare of those who serve. However, I realise that a number of Members want to make points about the 2.5%, and I will continue to encourage them to do so. I hope that they also welcome the extra £3 billion for defence that was announced in the Budget only a few weeks ago.
Several Members spoke about the armed forces covenant and this new Government’s manifesto commitment to putting it fully into law. I reassure them that the determination to do that is strong in the ministerial team. The Defence Secretary himself has made it clear that he wants it to be included in the armed forces Bill, which is the next piece of legislation on which the MOD will be working. I am grateful to the Members who spoke so passionately about the importance of the covenant in their constituencies. My hon. Friends the Members for Stoke-on-Trent Central and for Hartlepool in particular, as well as my hon. Friend the Member for Colchester and my next-door neighbour, my hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth Moor View, spoke with passion about armed forces champions. My hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth Moor View and I share a brilliant armed forces champion in Councillor Pauline Murphy, and her determination and fierce approach to protecting and supporting the armed forces family are precisely what I hope to see in the Armed Forces Commissioner, because we need someone who will focus relentlessly on improving service life.
Mr Francois
When the Bill goes into Committee next month we shall be able to explore these issues in more detail, but—particularly for the benefit of the Royal British Legion and Poppyscotland—will the Minister, before he sits down, update the House on what point we have reached in respect of the national veterans commissioner?
Luke Pollard
The right hon. Gentleman may have missed my earlier suggestion that Members should take up their points with the Minister for Veterans and People, because this Bill is about serving personnel. However, I recognise the genuine concern felt by the organisations that he has mentioned, and I encourage him to speak to the Veterans Minister, who is currently looking at representation for veterans. I expect the commissioner to have relationships with a host of organisations across the country, and I am happy for that to be picked up.
The hon. Member for Strangford asked serious questions—as I believe did the shadow Minister, the right hon. Member for Rayleigh and Wickford—about what will happen with a complaint being processed by the current Service Complaints Ombudsman for the Armed Forces that is transferred to the Armed Forces Commissioner. If it is a service complaint, and the complaint relates to a period of service and was raised within the time limit, the Armed Forces Commissioner will continue to investigate even if the complainant has left the forces. That is the same as the current SCOAF position. For new Armed Forces Commissioner investigations, it will be at the discretion of the commissioner whether to continue the investigation, bearing in mind that their investigations will be largely thematic, rather than picking up individual cases. I hope that reassures Members that the work will continue and any complaint currently being handled by the SCOAF will be continued.
That gives me a good opportunity to thank our current SCOAF, Mariette Hughes, and her team for their work. The Bill is designed deliberately not to adjust the service complaints system. The opportunity to do so in legislation may exist in an armed forces Bill, and I am happy to speak to Members who have concerns about the legislation relating to service complaints so that we can make sure that any edits required are included in the next such Bill.
A number of Members asked who can raise a complaint with the Armed Forces Commissioner. I am pleased to confirm that whether someone is a regular, a reserve, a recruit or a re-joiner, they will be able to raise an issue with the commissioner, as will family members of those people, in relation to the commissioner’s investigation work. That relates to the rank and grade question. We expect everyone, especially within defence, to treat the Armed Forces Commissioner with respect. The Secretary of State will be required by law to assist the commissioner with their investigations, and the appointment process that we are seeking to start will be for a very senior appointment. I reassure colleagues that the commissioner will require security clearance at a high level, because of the visits that they may make to military establishments, and they will be bound by the Official Secrets Act. Any investigation and anything they come across on their base visits will be held in the secrecy and at the classification that it deserves.
There were a number of questions about digital access. It will be up to the commissioner to decide how people will be able to raise an issue with them, rather than for us to specify it in the Bill, but I understand the issues that colleagues have raised and I would expect the commissioner to be fully accessible on various platforms, both digital and non-digital.
My hon. Friend the Member for Dunfermline and Dollar asked the devolution question. As this is a reserved matter, it is the responsibility of the Westminster Parliament to deal with it here. However, it is conceivable that the Armed Forces Commissioner may investigate an issue that is the responsibility of the Westminster Government in England but is devolved to Wales, Scotland or Northern Ireland. In such circumstances, we anticipate that the Armed Forces Commissioner would engage with devolved Assemblies and Administrations, and I would expect a relationship to be formed between them over time so that any issues could be addressed fully. The legislation will be for the MOD to apply, and reports will ultimately flow through the House of Commons Defence Committee, but I recognise what my hon. Friend said and I hope that, through the operation of the Bill, that will be developed.
I am really grateful to the shadow Secretary of State for joining me in one of my nerdy pursuits in defence legislation and asking why Gibraltar is not covered. As a former Defence Minister, he will know that the reason Gibraltar is often excluded from defence legislation, separate from other overseas territories, is that it has an agreement with the United Kingdom to replicate the Armed Forces Act in its own legislation, but serving personnel and their families stationed in Gibraltar should be in no doubt that they will be able to access the Armed Forces Commissioner. I reassure the hon. Member for Strangford that clause 6(1) clearly sets out that the Bill will apply to Northern Ireland and, indeed, all members of our United Kingdom family of nations.
A number of colleagues mentioned the commissioner’s budget. The budget has been modelled on input from the German model. That is why we are proposing an increase from the current SCOAF budget to £4.5 million to £5.5 million. The shadow Minister wondered why that figure arose a few times in the debate. If he turns to page 12 of the explanatory notes, he will see that it says “£4.5 - £5.5m”. I suspect that is the reason why so many Members raised the figure, but it will be for the commissioner to determine how many staff they wish to employ, in what roles and how the budget is allocated.
The Chair of the Defence Committee asked how the Bill sits with our broader strategy for our armed forces personnel. This is our first step in our work of renewing the contract between the nation and those who serve. It is exactly right, as was mentioned earlier, that it forms only one part of what we have announced. The wraparound childcare announcement that the Secretary of State made at the weekend is a good example of the direction of travel that people serving in our armed forces should expect from this Government: a clear direction that says we will look not only at the kit, capabilities and doctrine in the strategic defence review, but at the lived experience for each and every one who serves, to see how we can improve it. That relates to the broader strategy about how we can measure success—not only in terms of the lived experience improvements and the additional scrutiny of such issues, but the opportunity for us to do that.
I may disagree with my hon. Friend the Member for Portsmouth North on where the home of the Royal Navy is, as I represent Devonport in Plymouth, but I am grateful for all the contributions. Finally, I echo the words of my hon. Friend the Member for Aldershot, who summed up the debate very well when she said that armed forces personnel
“just want the basic equipment that they need to be able to do their jobs and a good life for their families…because if they are willing to fight for us, it is the very least that we can do.”
I commend the Bill to the House.
Question put and agreed to.
Bill accordingly read a Second time.
Armed Forces Commissioner Bill (Programme)
Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 83A(7)),
That the following provisions shall apply to the Armed Forces Commissioner Bill:
Committal
(1) The Bill shall be committed to a Public Bill Committee.
Proceedings in Public Bill Committee
(2) Proceedings in the Public Bill Committee shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion on Tuesday 17 December 2024.
(3) The Public Bill Committee shall have leave to sit twice on the first day on which it meets.
Consideration and Third Reading
(4) Proceedings on Consideration shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion one hour before the moment of interruption on the day on which those proceedings are commenced.
(5) Proceedings on Third Reading shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion at the moment of interruption on that day.
(6) Standing Order No. 83B (Programming committees) shall not apply to proceedings on Consideration and Third Reading.
Other proceedings
(7) Any other proceedings on the Bill may be programmed.—(Jeff Smith.)
Question agreed to.
Armed Forces Commissioner Bill (Money)
King’s recommendation signified.
Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 52(1)(a)),
That, for the purposes of any Act resulting from the Armed Forces Commissioner Bill, it is expedient to authorise the payment out of money provided by Parliament of:
(a) any expenditure incurred under or by virtue of the Act by the Secretary of State, and
(b) any increase attributable to the Act in the sums payable under or by virtue of any other Act out of money so provided.—(Jeff Smith.)
Question agreed to.
Defence
Luke Pollard Excerpts(1 month, 2 weeks ago)
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Luke Pollard
The agreement we have with the Pakistani Government means that anyone who is being assessed as part of the ARAP scheme will not be deported back to Afghanistan, which is really important, but there is still a requirement to make sure that we can relocate eligible individuals and their immediate families to the UK in an appropriate and reasonable way.
[Official Report, 14 October 2024; Vol. 754, c. 618.]
Written correction submitted by the Minister for the Armed Forces, the hon. Member for Plymouth Sutton and Devonport (Luke Pollard):
Luke Pollard
The agreement we have with the Pakistani Government means that anyone who is confirmed as ARAP-eligible should not be deported back to Afghanistan, which is really important, but there is still a requirement to make sure that we can relocate eligible individuals and their immediate families to the UK in an appropriate and reasonable way.
Army Structural Change: Royal Army Medical Service
Luke Pollard Excerpts(2 months, 2 weeks ago)
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The Minister for the Armed Forces (Luke Pollard)
The Government are committed to ensuring a combat credible Army that is structured to meet its purpose—protecting the nation and helping it prosper by fighting and winning battles from land. I am today announcing the Government’s decision to amalgamate the Army’s current three healthcare corps into a new modern corps called the Royal Army Medical Service.
In 2021, Future Soldier set in motion changes to the Army. The Army has continued to adapt Future Soldier to account for changes in the strategic environment by refining its structures as an evolution of the plan, in response to the changing threat picture and global context.
As part of this Future Soldier modernisation programme, the Army has created a new corps, the Royal Army Medical Service, which is an amalgamation of the Royal Army Medical Corps (RAMC), the Royal Army Dental Corps (RADC) and the Queen Alexandra’s Royal Army Nursing Corps (QARANC). This amalgamation has no impact on workforce numbers.
The amalgamation will ensure that the next generation of the Army will continue to be supported by a modern corps capable of delivering expeditionary healthcare. The underlying ethos of its founding corps will remain.
The Royal Army Medical Service will deliver modernised, multidisciplinary healthcare offering significant scope for institutional optimisation and improved organisational culture with a shift to a unified, inclusive and representative corps. There will no longer be corps-specific limitations, allowing personnel to work across all areas of the Royal Army Medical Service. It seeks to maximise the talents of its people to enhance the Army’s fighting power and build on the successes of its forebears.
The Royal Army Veterinary Corps (RAVC) will remain an independent corps outside of the Royal Army Medical Service due to its legal and operational combatant status which differs from the special protected status of the RAMC, RADC and QARANC.
The amalgamation will deliver improvements for those serving, reduce administrative inefficiencies and promote the world-class work of those who serve in the Royal Army Medical Service. On behalf of the Government, can I thank all those who serve in the new Royal Army Medical Service for their professionalism and dedication and the care they offer?
[HCWS131]
Oral Answers to Questions
Luke Pollard Excerpts(2 months, 2 weeks ago)
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Chris McDonald (Stockton North) (Lab)
The Minister for the Armed Forces (Luke Pollard)
The UK is fully committed to the AUKUS partnership. On 26 September, the Secretary of State hosted the first AUKUS Defence Ministers’ meeting outside the US. During that discussion, he provided direction and guidance to accelerate our taking advantage of the opportunities that this landmark partnership presents to us. I refer Members to the Defence Ministers’ meeting joint communication for more details on progress.
Michelle Scrogham
The Secretary of State already knows how proud we are in Barrow and Furness to be building our Astute and Dreadnought submarines, and to be part of the AUKUS programme. I know from our discussions that this Government understand that we need a cross-departmental approach to support the delivery of the AUKUS deal in Barrow and Furness. Will he comment on the importance of that broad approach, which aims to make Barrow an even better place in which to live, work and raise a family, and will he meet me to discuss that further?
Luke Pollard
I thank my hon. Friend for her question. Both the Secretary of State and I have visited Barrow to see not only the incredible innovation in the shipyard there, but the amazing workforce who are putting together the nuclear submarines. As my hon. Friend knows, the Government are indeed working across Departments, and with the local council and BAE Systems, to invest heavily not only in the development of the shipyard and the submarine facilities, but in the community that they need. I would be very happy to meet her and colleagues to discuss this issue further.
Chris McDonald
The most recent AUKUS Defence Ministers communiqué outlined an investment in industrial capacity, including £7 billion from this Government, and the Royal United Services Institute has said that the winner in any prolonged war will be the country with the most secure industrial base. Will the Minister expand on his answer to the right hon. Member for New Forest East (Sir Julian Lewis) and describe how this investment in our defence capabilities will strengthen supply chains in places such as Billingham in my constituency?
Luke Pollard
It is certainly true that armies march on their stomach, and in the event of a larger conflict, it will be the strength of our industrial base that determines the victor. That is why we are working together with industry to deliver a new defence industrial strategy, in particular to strengthen our resilience and innovation and to harness expertise, including in my hon. Friend’s constituency. I would be happy to meet him to discuss how we can make the most of those opportunities.
Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con)
The Minister will know that our AUKUS partners, the United States and Australia, have recently held bilateral discussions with South Korea, Japan, New Zealand and Canada about becoming part of the so-called pillar 2 of AUKUS, and I wonder what bilateral discussions the UK has had on this.
Luke Pollard
There is an opportunity to work with many of our partners internationally on pillar 2 opportunities. Those conversations have been taking place at official level within the Ministry of Defence and at political level, and we are continuing to work to bring those forward because if we want to buy the high-end war-winning kit that we need, the best way of doing that is to work with our partners to ensure not only that we have it but that our allies are able to make the most of it as well.
Bradley Thomas (Bromsgrove) (Con)
In the light of the increasing geopolitical threats that we face, can the Minister give an update on the adequacy and resilience of the computer chip supply chain that backs up the UK military?
Luke Pollard
The hon. Member is right to highlight the fragility of the international supply chain in that area. It is very important that Governments in the west, and in the NATO alliance in particular, are able to onshore production and to “friendly-shore” production—no matter how awkward that term is—to ensure that we are less exposed to threats. Colleagues in the Department for Business and Trade, as well as MOD colleagues, are looking into that. More work is needed in this area, but we are acting on it.
Chris Ward (Brighton Kemptown and Peacehaven) (Lab)
The Minister for the Armed Forces (Luke Pollard)
The strategic defence review will consider all aspects of defence so that the United Kingdom is both secure at home and strong abroad. It will ensure that defence is central to both the security and the economic growth and prosperity of our homeland. The SDR will set out a deliverable and affordable plan within the trajectory of spending 2.5% of GDP on defence.
Chi Onwurah
The Department’s future capability innovation programme accelerates innovation in operational capability. Given its success in delivering rapidly prototyped drones to Ukraine, and in growing the UK drone sector as part of the process, how will the Minister make sure that the lessons learned from the programme are adopted across defence procurement, especially in areas such as cyber-security and artificial intelligence, to ensure that innovation is rapidly operationalised and that a higher proportion of the work goes to British small and medium-sized enterprises?
Luke Pollard
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for her question and for championing the country’s tech sectors. She is absolutely right that the experience we are seeing in Ukraine means that we need to innovate faster, have more spiral development and bring more talent into these sectors. We have a good record of doing so, not just on drones but on AI and directed energy systems, where we have our own capabilities. We are now working with NATO, Five Eyes and AUKUS partners to ensure that we learn from that and to make sure that it is not just our big defence primes but the entire supply chain, including small businesses and start-ups, that benefits.
David Pinto-Duschinsky
It was a huge pleasure to welcome my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State to the Nepalese community centre in Burnt Oak this summer to talk to Gurkha veterans about the issues they face. Does the Minister agree that the Gurkha Regiment has an important role to play in the future of the UK’s defence? Will he outline what steps the Ministry of Defence is taking to address the failures of the previous Government in supporting Gurkha veterans, and will he meet me to discuss these issues?
Luke Pollard
The Government greatly value the contribution that the Gurkhas continue to make in supporting the UK’s security and defence, and we take our responsibility to Gurkha veterans very seriously. The Government remain committed to supporting them and their families during and after their service with the British Army. The Minister for Veterans and People is shortly to meet the ambassador of Nepal and Gurkha veteran representatives to continue that work.
Mr Gagan Mohindra (South West Hertfordshire) (Con)
As the Minister will know, the Royal Fleet Auxiliary industrial dispute is putting our national security at risk. Does he think it is a betrayal of our defence that Labour puts generous settlements for their rail paymasters over the small number of seafarers who keep us safe?
Luke Pollard
I think the hon. Gentleman can do better than that, to be honest. It is important that we support not only those who serve in all our forces, but those in the Royal Fleet Auxiliary. Discussions are ongoing to try to resolve the industrial action that started under the last Government, and I want to thank all those who serve in the Royal Navy, in the Royal Fleet Auxiliary and in civilian roles. It is the whole team that matters, and they all matter to this Government.
Sarah Dyke (Glastonbury and Somerton) (LD)
Many of my constituents work in the defence sector, with RNAS Yeovilton based in Glastonbury and Somerton, Thales operating from Templecombe, and Leonardo based nearby. However, the “Delivering the Defence Workforce of the Future” report revealed that 77% of key decision makers and influencers in the sector believe that a shortage of science, technology, engineering and maths skills will deteriorate the UK’s defence capabilities. What steps will the Minister take to address this shortage and to secure the UK’s defence?
Luke Pollard
I am grateful for the contribution of south-west defence companies to our national defence. As a south-west MP, I know it is important.
If we are to have sustainable defence, we need not only our armed forces but our supply chain to invest in skills on a sustainable, long-term basis. Short-term contracts do not contribute to that, which is one of the reasons why, as part of our defence industrial strategy and the strategic defence review, we are looking longer term at how to make sure we have the skills we need for both those who serve and those who support those who serve. There is a lot of work to do in this area.
Stuart Anderson (South Shropshire) (Con)
As a rifleman, I know the importance of training for military operations; it ensures readiness, lethality and survivability. In addition to the recent announcement that there is no firm timeline for spending 2.5% of GDP, possible cuts to the training budget have been mentioned. Will the Minister confirm that there will be no cuts to the training budget in either this financial year or the next?
Luke Pollard
I welcome the hon. Gentleman to his place; it is a great job being shadow Minister for the Armed Forces, as I know. If I may say so politely, the reason there is severe financial pressure on us is that this Government were left with a £22 billion financial black hole by his party. Let me be clear: supporting our armed forces to train to be the best, to deter aggression and to defeat it if necessary is a priority for this Government. Despite the economic circumstances his party passed on to mine, we are taking steps to ensure that our armed forces have what they need.
Jess Asato (Lowestoft) (Lab)
The Minister for the Armed Forces (Luke Pollard)
Let me be absolutely clear that GCAP is an important programme, as the Prime Minister has stated. That is why the Defence Secretary hosted his Japanese and Italian counterparts within weeks of taking office. Progress continues, alongside the strategic defence review, with more than 3,500 people employed on future combat air.
Jesse Norman
I apologise if I was hypnotised by your gaze, Mr Speaker.
I worry about the Government’s grip on strategy all together. First, they have given away the Chagos islands before the strategic defence review. Now they are putting at risk the global combat air programme by including it within the SDR. Is the Minister aware of the extreme efforts that our partners in Italy and Japan, visited by the Defence Committee in the last Parliament, have made to discharge their side of the bargain—in Japan’s case for the first time since the second world war in international procurement outside the USA? What measures is he taking to reassure them about the centrality and importance of the programme?
Luke Pollard
The Defence Secretary has clear instructions from the manifesto that Britain is to be better defended with a Labour Government. That is why within two weeks of taking office the Prime Minister had commissioned Lord Robertson to conduct the strategic defence review. The Prime Minister, the Defence Secretary and I have all made it clear that GCAP is an important programme. Not only do we have an amazing workforce working on it but I am pleased to tell the House that last month the UK ratified the GCAP convention, the international treaty that sets up the GCAP International Government Organisation. We will continue to make progress.
Chris Evans (Caerphilly) (Lab/Co-op)
GCAP will contribute £37 billion to the economy, but the Minister will know that the SDR being under review has led to a number of stories appearing in the press that the programme is about to cancelled. As someone who once represented General Dynamics, which built Ajax, I know that a belief that something will not happen tends to cause problems within the local and national economies. As the SDR goes ahead, will the Minister ensure that this House and the press will be kept up to date on how GCAP is developing?
Luke Pollard
GCAP is an important programme, and there will be further updates in relation to it as the SDR reports in the first half of next year. In the meantime, we continue to progress the project; indeed, work is continuing across a range of necessary and important defence projects, because we do not want the SDR to be an excuse to slow down progress. At a time when our troops and allies are operating in difficult and contested environments, we need to ensure that we invest in the kit that we need. That is what the SDR will set out: the future shape of the UK armed forces.
David Reed (Exmouth and Exeter East) (Con)
The Minister for the Armed Forces (Luke Pollard)
Defence R&D is critical to maximising the operational advantage of our armed forces. In an increasingly volatile and technology-driven world, the Department remains committed to investing in cutting-edge science, technology and innovation. Just after my appointment to the Department, I was delighted to visit the commando training centre in the hon. Member’s constituency to see the innovative training and capabilities of the future commando force.
David Reed
Frontier technologies such as artificial intelligence are already shaping every domain across the modern battlefield. To stay ahead of our adversaries and keep our service personnel and allies safe, it is imperative that we have the domestic ability to develop these technologies. As supercomputing is essential for the development of advanced AI systems, it was disappointing to see the Labour Government pull the plug on the University of Edinburgh’s £800 million exascale supercomputing project. From listening to the Secretary of State and his team, I know that they understand the need to invest in AI for defence, so will the Minister please inform the House how the Department intends to create these technologies when his party’s demand signal to academia and industry appears to be wavering?
Luke Pollard
I welcome the hon. Gentleman to the House. As a fellow Devon MP, I believe it is important that we have a strong voice on defence, so I am grateful for his question. The new Government have been very clear that we see AI playing a really important role not just in defence, but across a whole range of technologies. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Science, Innovation and Technology is leading on much of that work in his Department. AI and related technologies are being looked at in relation to the strategic defence review, where we need not only to upscale the innovative work that is already being done by UK technologies, but to provide the skills and the supply chain to ensure that we can continue to deliver, learning the lessons from what we are seeing in Ukraine, in particular.
Danny Kruger (East Wiltshire) (Con)
Ministers repeatedly state their commitment to reaching a spending level of 2.5% of GDP on defence, but they simply will not tell the House when they will do so. It is no surprise that we are already hearing reports of potential cuts to programmes in defence R&D. Will the Minister simply rule out cuts to defence R&D and science spending in this financial year and the next?
Luke Pollard
As a Government, we are committed to spending 2.5% of GDP on defence. We have set out clearly that that will be announced at a future fiscal event. I must say that I am a wee bit disappointed, because I would have expected the Opposition Front Benchers to stand up and apologise for the mess that they have left not just the armed forces, but the wider economy. The Government are committed to spending 2.5% of GDP on defence. We are committed to investing in our armed forces, and we will continue to do so.
Helen Maguire (Epsom and Ewell) (LD)
May I concur with your comments about the late Alex Salmond, Mr Speaker?
The exchange of research and development between Ukraine and the UK is vital to improve the security of both countries. What steps is the Department taking to learn from the innovative technologies from the battlefield to develop shared collaborative capabilities?
Luke Pollard
I congratulate the hon. Lady on her appointment as a shadow spokesperson. I was in Ukraine a few weeks ago leading a trade delegation of British companies looking at precisely the issue of how we can learn from the battlefield experience of Ukraine, making sure that for the new technologies needed there, we can invest in the supply chain—not only in the UK, but in Ukraine—to make it more resilient. A lot of work is ongoing in this area, but we will need to do more. If we are to defeat Putin’s illegal invasion, we will need not only to restock our own supply chain, but to accelerate the provision of innovative tech to Ukraine. That is what this Government are committed to doing.
Chris McDonald (Stockton North) (Lab)
Ruth Jones (Newport West and Islwyn) (Lab)
The Minister for the Armed Forces (Luke Pollard)
I am grateful to my hon. Friend—she and I have campaigned on many similar issues for quite some time. I would like to make it clear that no licences to trail hunt on Ministry of Defence land have been granted for the 2024-25 hunting season. The Department is considering its position alongside other Government Departments, and we hope to have an update soon, but I am very happy to meet my hon. Friend in the meantime.
Mr Joshua Reynolds (Maidenhead) (LD)
Luke Murphy (Basingstoke) (Lab)
Luke Pollard
I am grateful for the question, because we know that there is a recruitment and retention crisis in the UK armed forces. It is precisely for that reason that the Defence Secretary set out at the Labour party conference a series of changes, including scrapping 100 outdated recruitment policies and creating a new direct entry route for cyber. There is a lot more work to be done in this area, and the Department will be making further announcements in due course.
Shockat Adam (Leicester South) (Ind)
David Taylor (Hemel Hempstead) (Lab)
In May, I was privileged to join a group called Help99 in driving some pick-up trucks and other military vehicles to Kyiv
for the use of Ukrainian soldiers on the frontline. Will the Minister meet me to discuss how we can make it easier for such groups to deliver vehicles, which are so desperately needed?
Luke Pollard
I pay tribute to my hon. Friend and parliamentary colleagues in all parties for the work they are doing in their constituencies to support our friends in Ukraine. I would be very happy to meet him to see what we can do to support their work further, because we will support Ukraine for as long as it takes.
Afghan Special Forces Relocation Review
Luke Pollard Excerpts(2 months, 2 weeks ago)
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The Minister for the Armed Forces (Luke Pollard)
I would like to update the House on the ongoing review of Afghan relocations and assistance policy scheme applications from former members of Afghan specialist units, including former members of Commando Force 333 and Afghan Task Force 444, commonly known as the Triples. These Afghans worked alongside UK armed forces in Afghanistan, fighting valiantly, with some dying alongside our troops. It is for this reason I know that former Triples have the support of veterans of the conflict and the British public, as well as Members on both sides of the House.
When we were in opposition, the Defence Secretary and I, along with my hon. Friend the Minister for Security, as well as many sitting and former Members of the House—again, on a cross-party basis—advocated a review of decisions made on ARAP applications from the Triples. I pay tribute to my hon. Friend, and those former and sitting Members of Parliament. I am keenly aware that an update on the Triples review is long overdue, so I thank colleagues for their patience. Although the review, which should not have been necessary in the first place, has taken longer than initially intended, I can confirm today that key issues have been identified and resolved, and the Government are now making important progress, with eligible former Triples and their families now being invited to relocate to the UK.
The Triples review was announced by the previous Government on 1 February in response to my urgent question, after they accepted that inconsistencies existed in how decisions on ARAP applications from members of the Triples were being made. For clarity, officials are currently reviewing a cohort of ineligible decisions taken on applications that contain credible evidence of links to former Afghan specialist units and in which Ministry of Defence caseworkers previously referred cases to officers in other parts of the MOD, to other Departments and to governmental bodies under category 4 of the ARAP scheme, and which may have been affected by that inconsistent approach. The review is being carried out by staff who have not previously worked on those applications, including independent caseworkers. Approximately 2,000 such applications are within scope of the review, and I can report that more than three quarters have so far been reassessed.
The previous Government committed to conclude the review within 12 weeks of launch, which was at the end of March. The review should have reported before the general election, but clearly it did not. Given the perilous situation in which many former Triples still find themselves, that is a source of deep regret and concern for me that I know many Members will share. I have investigated the reasons for the delay, which include the emergence in Government archives of additional information that officials undertaking the review discovered and which required careful consideration.
The nature of the relationship between the UK Government and the Triples evolved over the almost 20 years of UK military involvement in Afghanistan. That has led to a complex set of historical records held by different Departments. It has taken time to piece that information together to give a fuller and more accurate picture. I am now able to provide a provisional update on what we have learned from the review. Officials have now confirmed that there is evidence of payments from the UK Government to members of Afghan specialist units, including CF333 and ATF444, and that, for some individuals, that demonstrates a direct employment relationship. That evidence goes beyond previously identified top-up payments and reimbursements for operational expenses, which do not in themselves demonstrate such an employment relationship. That, of course, runs contrary to the position reported to Parliament by the previous Government that no evidence of direct employment existed.
My officials have advised that some record analysis, which is to be carried out, should give us a more confident picture of the task at hand. I am satisfied, however, that what has come to light is sufficient to move forward with decision-making without delay under ARAP categories 1 and 2, as well as under category 4 where appropriate for the Triples. The review is still progressing, and each application is considered on its own merits, but given the information that is available at the moment, we are expecting an overturn rate of approximately 25%.
For the benefit of the House, those categories permit ARAP eligibility to persons including those who were directly employed in Afghanistan by a UK Government Department, or those who worked in Afghanistan alongside a UK Government Department—in partnership with or closely supporting and assisting that Department—and who are at risk because of that work. Like me, Members will be understandably anxious about the impact that the delay has had on the pace at which we can move to safety as many as possible of those who are eligible for relocation.
Many Members will have concerns for the welfare of former Triples who might be ARAP eligible and remain at risk. I share their deep frustrations, but I hope that it is of some comfort to colleagues across this House that if a decision is overturned as part of the review, applicants are informed immediately and the relocations process can then start. I have already begun signing eligible decisions to relocate eligible former Triples to the UK, which is why this statement is necessary. Furthermore, once they arrive in Pakistan and are confirmed as ARAP eligible, we can offer them protection from deportation back to Afghanistan thanks to the UK Government’s ongoing and constructive dialogue with the Government of Pakistan.
Confirming that we have found evidence of direct employment for some of the Triples cohort is the opposite of the previous Government’s position that no such direct employment existed. I would like to state that I have seen no evidence suggesting a conscious effort by the previous Administration or by any Minister to cause delay or indeed to mislead the House or the public on this matter. When Ministers in the previous Government provided statements to the House on the Triples, I believe that they did so in good faith, based upon the known information under consideration at that time. Record keeping in the context of a long multinational operation is notoriously challenging, but that is no excuse. It is of course critical that we understand how and why that error occurred.
A failure to access and share the right digital records and challenges with information flows across departmental lines have all led to this significant body of information being overlooked, with huge real-world implications. Where corporate memory failed, so did processes. As is all too often the case, it was those who needed help the most who suffered. I am clear that this sort of systems failure is not good enough. Under my direction, officials will now review and renew efforts to improve information flows and processes to ensure that this never happens again.
I do not consider there to be malicious intent in this case, but it is an example of the problems that dogged the Afghan resettlement scheme under the previous Government. The Triples review should not have been needed in the first place. It should not have taken this long, and the system in place at the time that the initial decisions were made should have been led with more competence and grip, to ensure that these mistakes were caught and managed more quickly.
It is with some relief that I, as part of this new Government and as someone who championed the case for the Triples when in Opposition, can assure Members that we have unblocked progress and that eligible former Triples and their families will now rightfully receive the sanctuary that their work in support of our troops in Afghanistan deserves. I am confident that we will be able to relocate those eligible to safety and so that they can start a new life here in the UK. I will keep pushing this work forward at pace so that we can close this chapter in our history, knowing that we did right by those who stood shoulder to shoulder with the UK armed forces in Afghanistan.
I recognise the strong sense of feeling and support across the House on this matter and on Afghan resettlement in general. The Defence Secretary and I will keep the House updated on our approach to Afghan resettlement. Given the seriousness with which we take the Triples review in the MOD, I aim to report to the House when the review is complete.
Andrew Bowie (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (Con)
I thank the Minister for advance sight of his statement and for its tone. The debt of gratitude that we owe all those who bravely served for, with or alongside our armed forces in support of our mission in Afghanistan is so great that words cannot do it justice. They worked at great personal risk to make Afghanistan a better place, and it is right that we supported them and continue to support them now.
I am proud that, in addition to Operation Pitting, where we evacuated 15,000 people from Afghanistan in 2021, the previous Government established the Afghan citizens resettlement scheme and the Afghan relocation and assistance policy. I welcome that, as of 30 June, indefinite leave to remain had been granted to 12,874 individuals across both schemes. The House will be aware that many former Afghan specialist unit members have safely relocated to the UK, along with their families, through the ARAP scheme. However, I acknowledge the issues relating to applications from a cohort of members of the Triples.
As the House is aware, a review was announced in February by the then Minister for the Armed Forces, the former Member for Wells, my right hon. Friend James Heappey. Rightly, the Ministry of Defence has been reviewing ineligible decisions made against applications from the Triples and other specialist units, with an eye to any inconsistencies. It is important that this work is done thoroughly and with great care. I welcome the Minister’s update to the House today on the work of that review process. I also commend him for his courtesy in coming to the House in person to make his statement.
I listened very carefully to what the Minister said about the new information, including evidence that builds a picture of direct employment by the UK Government of some Triples, and the overturning of decisions, including the rate of overturning. We on the Conservative Benches support this review process, which was initiated by James Heappey, being completed successfully. We want the correct decisions made on these very important and highly sensitive applications as speedily and fairly as possible. We hope to receive further updates from His Majesty’s Government.
What course of action will the Minister take for the applications of Triples where no evidence of employment is found? More broadly, the House would welcome an update on the flow of those potentially eligible for ARAP from Afghanistan to Pakistan, and from Pakistan to the United Kingdom. Could the hon. Gentleman outline what conversations he has had with the Pakistani authorities to ensure that ARAP-eligible Afghan special forces personnel are not evicted from their country?
As ever, we also want the Government to ensure that those who arrive through the scheme receive the support they need, so that they can begin successfully rebuilding their lives in the United Kingdom. What will the impact be of the decision announced today on housing stock for ARAP applicants?
Finally, we reiterate our call for the human rights of all Afghans to be protected, and for the monitoring and documenting of discrimination and abuses committed by the Taliban. We again strongly condemn the Taliban’s attacks on the rights of women and girls. The international community must continue to press the Taliban to reverse course.
Luke Pollard
I thank the shadow Minister for his support for the review and for the Triples in general. Those who served alongside our forces are owed a debt of gratitude by all those in the UK. It is good that there is cross-party support for the Triples and for the contribution they made in support of our mission to Afghanistan.
On the shadow Minister’s question, there is an ongoing application process for ARAP, where people can apply and their eligibility is checked. It is entirely possible that someone can qualify while still not having direct employment, but that is subject to the case-by-case process for the individual applicant. The review and the update I am presenting today does not mean that all Triples are eligible, nor does it mean that no Triples are eligible. It means that where a direct employment relationship has been established we will now take forward their applications, whereas previously those applications were refused.
We will continue to work with the Government of Pakistan. We are grateful for their work and support in facilitating the flow of eligible persons from Afghanistan to Pakistan and then onwards to the United Kingdom. It is important that we continue that flow, so people who are currently at risk from the Taliban—it is important that we stress that they are at risk because of the Taliban’s actions—have the ability to get to sanctuary. We are doing so at a reasonable pace to ensure that the entire flow can be delivered properly and sensibly.
I am grateful to the shadow Minister for saying what he did on rebuilding lives. There is, I think, enormous support from all parties here for the Afghans who put their lives at risk to support our troops to be settled in the UK and to start a new life. I am grateful to Members from both sides of the House who have supported efforts in their own constituencies to do so. The new Government are working across government, with colleagues in the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government and the Home Office. We will make further announcements when we can on transitional accommodation, to make sure the flow is appropriate through the United Kingdom. There will be some Members of Parliament who will have transitional accommodation in their constituencies. I am very happy to speak to them to ensure that the integration and flow is as smooth as possible.
I echo the words of the shadow Minister in relation to the appalling atrocities of the Taliban, not just in their attacks on the rights of women and girls in Afghanistan, but in the way that they are pursuing, and in many cases deliberately attacking, those people who served alongside coalition forces in Afghanistan. It is the actions of the Taliban that put at risk those people who tried to rebuild their own country and work for a better Afghanistan alongside our troops. That is why the ARAP scheme is so important, and why it enjoys cross-party support and will continue to do so.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Judith Cummins)
I call the Chair of the Defence Committee.
Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Dhesi (Slough) (Lab)
I welcome the statement by my hon. Friend the Minister, who was a staunch advocate for the Triples when in opposition. We should never have needed the review, because those individuals bravely supported us when we needed their assistance for the betterment of Afghanistan. Can he advise whether a member of the Triples whose case was previously rejected under the ARAP scheme will be aware that their case is under review? How will the Department and the Government go about making contact with those individuals?
Luke Pollard
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his support for ARAP and the Afghans involved. As part of the Afghan Triples review, 2,000 or so cases are under consideration. Where we discover that there has been a negative decision that should be overturned, we are contacting individuals immediately, but that does not mean that all Triples are eligible. Nor does it mean that everyone who served as part of the Afghan national army in support of its mission is eligible for relocation to the UK. Additional routes are available via the Home Office, but in the very particular case of the Triples, we aim to conclude the review at pace, contacting all those who we now deem to be eligible based on the new evidence we have found. There is still some work to be done and a number of the most complex cases are still to be delivered, so he will understand that I cannot put a timetable on when that review will complete. However, we have made sorting out the ARAP scheme one of our early priorities as a Department and we will continue to deliver the changes we need to make to ensure we can have confidence that all the decisions made in relation to the Triples are the right decisions.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Judith Cummins)
I call the Liberal Democrat spokesperson.
Helen Maguire (Epsom and Ewell) (LD)
The late Paddy Ashdown was one of the first to call on the UK Government to recognise that we have a moral obligation to support Afghan interpreters and others who supported us over a 20-year period by providing them with a route to resettlement in the UK. More than three years on from our withdrawal from Afghanistan, it is troubling that those such as the Triples and their families are still waiting for their chance to come to the UK and to safety. Earlier this year, we welcomed the review of those cases, and we thank the Minister for his update today. These brave individuals put their lives on the line in support of our operations, and sadly many now face threats to their lives for that reason. We must get them out and to the UK as quickly as possible.
It was deeply alarming to hear the Minister’s revelations about a direct employment relationship. Tragically, during this period some of those brave Afghans have lost their lives; perhaps they would not have done so had this been uncovered more quickly. Can the Minister provide a figure for the number of Triples estimated to have been killed over the past three years? Given this new evidence, does he remain confident in the decision-making processes for other individuals whose ARAP applications were rejected? Does he or his Department plan to look at those again? Will he update us on what steps he is taking to ensure that these people are not only eligible for ARAP, but able to get to the UK safely? Has he spoken to his counterparts in the region to that end?
Will the Minister also look at the treatment of those who have come to the UK under the ARAP scheme, and will he consider widening the scope of the armed forces covenant to include those who came to our aid during our operations in Afghanistan?
Luke Pollard
I am glad that the hon. Lady raised the issue of Afghan interpreters, who sit outside the Triples in this regard. There are a great many Afghan interpreters in Plymouth. As a constituency MP, I know that their contribution is widely recognised and valued by the public.
It is not possible for me to put a number on those who have lost their lives or those who have been persecuted, or whose families have been persecuted, by the Taliban because of their involvement with coalition forces and allied forces in Afghanistan, but it makes clear the reason why we called for the review. This is not an administrative mess that has no consequence, but a failure to deliver consistent standards that will have significant real-world implications for those who are desperately in need of support and sanctuary.
We are confident that the wider ARAP scheme does not involve the same problems in relation to direct employment as those affecting the Triples, although there are areas that we are improving, as a new Government. Individuals are assessed on the basis of their individual circumstances, and in many instances where there is already an employment relationship with a Government Department, which might have been, for instance, the Department for International Development or the Ministry of Defence, that will already have been evidenced. The difficulty arose because of the specialist nature of the Triples units and the problem of establishing that direct employment relationship.
We continue to engage in dialogue with our friends in the Pakistani Government to ensure that we can go on delivering this programme as we intend. The hon. Lady may want to feed her views into our further work on the armed forces covenant ahead of the armed forces Bill, in which we will seek to put the covenant fully into law.
Neil Coyle (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) (Lab)
I thank the Minister for the tone and intent of his statement, but it was not only the Triples who suffered as a result of the mistakes of the last Government, who capitulated to the Taliban. Will the Department also re-examine cases such as that of Major General Mohammad Dawood Amin, whose case the MOD closed owing to a correspondence error at its end, despite his service to the UK? His brother, Abdul Basir Jaji, and I are still raising his case. He is a constituent of mine, and we are still seeking his safety here in the UK.
Luke Pollard
It is hard for me to talk about individual circumstances and individual cases at the Dispatch Box, but I shall be happy to discuss the issue with the hon. Gentleman further.
Sir Gavin Williamson (Stone, Great Wyrley and Penkridge) (Con)
I very much welcome the announcement by the Minister. It is absolutely the right thing to be doing. I was privileged to see at first hand the amazing work that the 333 and 444 units did, side by side with British forces. Can the Minister assure the House that he will work closely with the Pakistani Government to ensure that none of those individuals is expelled or moved on from Pakistan until we are able to look at their cases? Would the Minister be able to find time to meet me in order to go through some individual cases that are a bit too sensitive to talk about on the Floor of the House?
Luke Pollard
I am very happy to meet the right hon. Gentleman to discuss any cases. On the conversation with the Pakistani Government, the main concern in relation to the Triples is about moving them out of Afghanistan and into Pakistan in the first place. The agreement we have with the Pakistani Government means that anyone who is being assessed as part of the ARAP scheme will not be deported back to Afghanistan, which is really important, but there is still a requirement to make sure that we can relocate eligible individuals and their immediate families to the UK in an appropriate and reasonable way. We are continuing that work, and we are continuing the dialogue with the Pakistani Government in relation to this issue.
Shaun Davies (Telford) (Lab)
I thank the Minister for his work in this area over many years. My constituency and wider borough have played a key role in relocating a number of Afghans over many years. Can the Minister confirm that he is having conversations across Government, including with local government, to ensure that when people are relocated to the UK, it is done in a joined-up and supportive way?
Luke Pollard
I pay tribute to all those in my hon. Friend’s constituency who are taking steps to support our Afghan friends. We owe them a debt of gratitude, and it is not just about words; we need to make sure that we are living those words. I know that communities, and especially veterans of the conflict, take that responsibility very seriously, and I reassure him that we do too. This new Government have already looked at how we can work across Departments to ensure that we provide better value for money and a more joined-up approach, and further announcements will be made in due course.
Stephen Gethins (Arbroath and Broughty Ferry) (SNP)
I thank the Minister for his statement and for early sight of it, and I also thank him for the attention he has given to this matter. I pay tribute to colleagues across the Chamber for their service in Afghanistan, and to those who have worked on this issue.
I pay particular tribute to the former Member of Parliament for Glasgow South, Stewart McDonald. He received a letter just two weeks before the general election, at which he lost his seat, and he has been unable to take up this matter. The letter said that an error was identified in a response to a parliamentary question on 22 March 2024, which was shocking. It said that there were ineligible decisions and that assessments had been made by the Ministry of Defence—there was a bit of coverage during the election campaign that the Minister probably recalls. Will he please look into that as a matter of urgency?
We recognise the brutality of the Taliban regime. We also the recognise the value that the Afghan refugee community brings to communities across the length and breadth of the UK, including in Glasgow and Dundee. Can the Minister speak to the Home Office about how we treat Afghan refugees? A lot of this goes back to the fact that we have a refugee system with a presumption against, rather than in favour of, those who are fleeing the most brutal regimes.
Luke Pollard
Plymouth is a long way from Scotland, but I enjoyed a cross-party friendship with Stewart McDonald. When it comes to an issue like this, it is important that partisan divides do not affect our collective work, so I am very happy to pick up the issues that the hon. Gentleman mentioned in his question.
Julia Buckley (Shrewsbury) (Lab)
Will the Minister join me in thanking our British personnel for the hard work they have done in processing the entitled Afghan personnel—for example, at the Nesscliffe Army camp in my constituency of Shrewsbury?
Luke Pollard
I am happy to join my hon. Friend in doing so. When we look at the Triples in particular, it is apparent that there has been real advocacy from serving and former members in highlighting that there were inconsistencies in the decision making in support of individuals who put their lives on the line in support of our mission. That applies not only to those who served in Afghanistan; I say an enormous thanks to people who are supporting Afghans who relocate to the UK. I know that an awful lot of good work is taking place, including in Shrewsbury.
Sir Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)
I recall that when the Minister and the Security Minister were campaigning previously on behalf of the Triples, there was some doubt about the comprehensiveness of the records that show which people had actually served in the way necessary to qualify to come to the United Kingdom. Is the Minister absolutely satisfied that there is no question of any records being withheld—for example, by special forces—that would help identify eligible former members of the Triples?
Luke Pollard
The review has not yet completed, but as part of it we are looking at evidence amassed across different Government Departments—where evidence of a direct employment relationship can be established. This excludes top-up payments and operational payments, which sit outside that. The right hon. Gentleman will know that I am unable to comment on special forces on the Floor of the House, but I can say that all parts of His Majesty’s Government that kept records of that are contributing to the review. I have to be cautious about this because of the ongoing Afghanistan inquiry, which is looking at elements of this, but I will happily pick this up separately with him.
Kevin Bonavia (Stevenage) (Lab)
I welcome the work that my hon. Friend the Minister did in opposition and is now putting to good use with this review. We in this country owe a special obligation to those people who are engaged with our armed forces abroad, wherever they may be, and the failures that are coming to light are really worrying. What lessons does he think we can learn from those failures?
Luke Pollard
I intend, at the conclusion of the Triples review, to be able to publish a full “lessons learned” summary looking at where we need to get to, but there are a number of lessons. One point that has been reinforced in my mind is that there is enormous support for those who served alongside our troops, but we did not see record keeping that matched that type of personal connection and personal thanks for those who served. That is why, as part of this work, we have instructed that there should be changes in processes within the Ministry of Defence—and beyond that, in how we work with other Departments and parts of HMG—to ensure that in future when we have a direct relationship with people, that information is properly stored and accessible.
Richard Foord (Honiton and Sidmouth) (LD)
The Minister talks about the parallel independent inquiry on the deployment of special forces to Afghanistan between 2010 and 2013. Former members of UK special forces told the BBC’s “Panorama” earlier this year that they believed their veto powers on applications by Afghans claiming to have served with the Triples represented a conflict of interest. This conflict of interest might not have arisen had there been good parliamentary oversight of UK special forces. Will the Government consider extending the scrutiny powers of the Intelligence and Security Committee so that it has oversight of UK special forces?
Luke Pollard
I understand where the hon. Gentleman is trying to get to with his question. It is difficult for me to comment on special forces, for reasons that he will appreciate. I am also really keen to see the output of the Afghanistan inquiry and to understand what lessons Lord Haddon-Cave can identify from that. That might be the moment when that conversation is more appropriate, but it is not one that I can have now.
Mr Calvin Bailey (Leyton and Wanstead) (Lab)
I praise my hon. Friend for his pursuit of justice with regard to the Triples, and not only in opposition but since he has entered power. On lessons learned, one of the tenets behind a number of the Bills that the Government have pursued—in relation to the Hillsborough inquiry, for example—is a duty of candour. Might that be considered as part of the Afghanistan inquiry as a whole?
Luke Pollard
The Government certainly intend to bring forward the Hillsborough Bill, which I hope will enjoy cross-party support, particularly in relation to a duty of candour. What we have discovered with the Triples review—I await the final report—is more a failure to organise and record properly, rather than a deliberate attempt to disrupt and not share information. It is that essential plumbing that failed, but also the grip and leadership of the programme, and we need to learn from this to ensure that it never happens again and that all those people who had an eligible case get the support and sanctuary that they need.
Dr Caroline Johnson (Sleaford and North Hykeham) (Con)
I understand that, as a result of the ARAP programme, there will now be a new temporary centre to receive families at Beckingham camp and training ranges in my constituency. This fairly isolated site, consisting of Nissen huts, is normally used by cadets and personnel practising on the ranges. How long will the individual families be expected to stay in these Nissen huts? What money will be given to local authorities to ensure that people can be properly cared for while they are there? And how long does the Minister anticipate this temporary centre being open before it is returned to military use?
Luke Pollard
I sent a letter to the hon. Lady on this issue, which I am happy to pick up directly outside the Chamber. However, I reassure her that our intention is to use transitional facilities, such as the camp she mentioned, only on a temporary basis. I am happy to go into further detail with her about how long we intend to use the sites, but we will also be working with local authorities to ensure that the correct level of funding is provided to support former Afghan personnel and their families while they are temporarily housed there. It is important to note that, from the feedback we have received from other locations, many communities have welcomed these families and want to support them, in order to thank them for their work in support of our troops. I am very happy to meet her to discuss this further.
Louise Jones (North East Derbyshire) (Lab)
Having served in the conflict in Afghanistan, I know how vital the work of units such as 333 and 444 was in supporting our troops. Is work currently under way to consider the other specialist units that supported our troops?
Luke Pollard
I thank my hon. Friend for her question, and for her service. It is important that, on both sides of the House, we have voices of Members who have served and understand the serious consequences of our decisions.
At this stage, the Triples review is looking at 333 and 444. However, we hope to get to other specialist units that we believe may have a similar direct employment relationship. I will be able to report back on that once the review has concluded.
Munira Wilson (Twickenham) (LD)
A constituent of mine who served with British forces in Kabul came to see me earlier this year about a friend who had appealed his failed ARAP application. This individual is an Afghan national who was contracted by the British military in the early 2000s. He worked as an interpreter, including with the British embassy. I cannot say much more publicly, for fear of putting his safety at risk. He has already been labelled a collaborator, and his father was tortured and murdered by the Taliban. His life and that of his children are at risk. Unfortunately, the Minister’s Conservative predecessor, to whom I wrote in April, did not respond to my request for his personal intervention in the case. Will the Minister meet me to discuss this case and to see what he can do?
Luke Pollard
I thank the hon. Lady for her approach. This case is a perfect illustration of why it is important to get these decisions right. It is not possible to relocate every single person who supported the UK mission in Afghanistan, but there is an opportunity to appeal rejected applications. I would be very happy to meet her to discuss the case further, and to take it forward.
Dr Andrew Murrison (South West Wiltshire) (Con)
I welcome the tone and substance of the Minister’s statement. Few of us thought 20 years ago that we would still be mopping up after Operations Telic and Herrick. Does he agree that the long shadow of discretionary warfare, particularly in the civil domain, should act as a powerful incentive for any Government when considering future military conflict?
Luke Pollard
I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for his question, and for his work as a Minister in the previous Government.
As part of the new Government’s reset, we have commissioned Lord Robertson to undertake the strategic defence review, which will consider the threats we face. Although it is certainly true that state-on-state threats are more prominent than they have ever been, there are still non-state threats to the United Kingdom, which creates an enormous challenge not only in the military space but in the civil security space. The strategic defence review will try to work out the best shape. We have invited submissions from all parties, as well as from individuals.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
I commend the Minister. We discussed this issue last week, and I appreciated the opportunity to have that chat in advance of today’s statement. I also welcome that he said
“we did right by those who stood shoulder to shoulder with the UK armed forces”.
I, like the shadow Minister and Members on both sides of the House, have always spoken up for these people. With that in mind, I welcome what is happening. A review is important to supporting those who worked tirelessly alongside British forces.
I brought the previous Minister’s attention to a guy I met in Pakistan in September 2022. This man served alongside Afghan forces, and I pursued his application on three occasions. I was very frustrated by where the process ended up, so I am pleased to see that today we can do something to help this gentleman. My constituency can offer him and his family a house, a job and school places for his children. We just need to make sure we have the process and the data to bring him and his family to my Strangford constituency.
Luke Pollard
It would not be a statement without the hon. Gentleman’s contribution. I thank him for his kind offer. It is important that, whatever the plumbing, the process sees the relocation of those who served alongside our forces in Afghanistan and gave them so much support. It is important that support is available to them in all nations of the United Kingdom. I know that an enormous amount of work is being done by local authorities and the devolved Administrations to ensure that Afghans have wraparound support after being relocated into their area.
I hope the review will conclude relatively soon, and I will then be in a position to make further announcements. In the meantime, I am grateful for the support from both sides of the House for those who served alongside our forces in Afghanistan. I will report back to the House in due course.
Points of Order
Luke Pollard Excerpts(5 months, 1 week ago)
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Mr Gagan Mohindra (South West Hertfordshire) (Con)
On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. May I first welcome you to your place? Secondly, I have had the benefit of two ministerial visits by Government Members, both of whom I respect, without the courtesy of letting me know. I have spoken independently to both of them—the right hon. Member for Rawmarsh and Conisbrough (John Healey) and the hon. Member for Plymouth Sutton and Devonport (Luke Pollard)—and they have both assured me that it was an error in process that will be corrected. I just wanted to make sure the whole of the Treasury Bench and the new Government followed the normal protocols and ensured that all Members of the House were duly informed of visits.
The Minister for the Armed Forces (Luke Pollard)
Further to that point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. The Defence Secretary and I have spoken to the hon. Gentleman and apologised for the administrative oversight. I assure him and other Members that it will not happen again.
Dr Kieran Mullan (Bexhill and Battle) (Con)
On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. In the statement on prison capacity, the issue of the Friday release of prisoners was raised. I recognise it was raised by hon. Members sincerely and with good intentions. However, private Members’ Bills are an incredibly important part of the work of this House, something we all recognise and value, and during the previous Parliament the former Member for Barrow and Furness steered through, with cross-party support, the Offenders (Day of Release from Detention) Bill, to stop the routine release of prisoners on a Friday. I seek your advice, Madam Deputy Speaker, on how we can ensure that the record accurately reflects the incredibly important work on that private Member’s Bill, which contributed to that issue and was not mentioned in the statement earlier.