Historic Allegations against Veterans
Lord Lancaster of Kimbolton Excerpts(6 years, 7 months ago)
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The Minister for the Armed Forces (Mark Lancaster)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Streeter. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for North West Norfolk (Sir Henry Bellingham) on securing the debate. I had the opportunity as recently as January to make a speech on this matter. That another debate has been secured so soon speaks volumes about the commitment of the House to the welfare of both serving and former members of our armed forces. I declare my interest as a serving member of the Army Reserve.
I am troubled that my hon. Friend the Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart) feels that the Government are simply not interested in our veterans. He is probably right that there is no serving Cabinet Minister who has seen operational service—there is, of course, one who serves in the Royal Naval Reserve. Although my own very modest experiences in Bosnia, Kosovo and Afghanistan pale into insignificance compared with those of many who served in Northern Ireland and elsewhere, several Ministers have served. I assure my hon. Friend that many of us in Government have our veterans’ interests at the forefront of our minds and are determined to do what we can to support them. I will move on in a moment to underline some of the things that the MOD is doing to support our veterans.
I am second to none in my admiration for our armed forces. They do an exceptionally difficult job in the most challenging circumstances, and we rightly hold them to the highest standards. However, although the overwhelming majority of service personnel conduct themselves professionally and in accordance with legal obligations, a few do not. In such circumstances, domestic and international law requires us to investigate serious allegations, and it is right that we do. We live in a democracy that values the rule of law, and no one, including those in the armed forces, should be above the law. However, let me be clear that that does not mean we should accept lengthy investigations and reinvestigations many years after the event.
Let me turn first to Northern Ireland. It is due only to the courageous efforts of our security forces that we have the relative peace and stability that Northern Ireland enjoys today. The Government are sincere and unstinting in their gratitude to all those who served throughout the long years of the troubles, many hundreds of whom paid a very high price for doing so. We will always salute the heroism and courage they displayed in upholding democracy and the rule of law in Northern Ireland, and we will not tolerate the rewriting of Northern Ireland’s history by those who wish to legitimise the actions of terrorists who sought to kill and destroy.
Historical investigations in Northern Ireland currently involve numerous inquests and investigations into the small minority of deaths attributed to the state. Meanwhile, many terrorist murders go uninvestigated. All those involved, not least the victims and survivors of terrorism, along with former members of the security services, deserve a better approach than the current flawed system, which is not working well for anyone. The Government are committed to putting this unacceptable situation right.
The Government believe that the institutions proposed in the 2014 Stormont House agreement are the best way to ensure a fair, balanced and, crucially, proportionate approach to addressing the legacy of the past in Northern Ireland. On Friday the Government published a consultation and draft Bill that set out in detail how the Stormont House agreement institutions could be implemented.
The key institution in the context of today’s debate is the proposed historic investigations unit, or HIU. The HIU would be responsible for completing outstanding investigations into troubles-related deaths within five years. Critically, that would include around 700 murders by terrorists that are not currently being investigated. In addition, the HIU would be required to act in a manner that is fair, impartial, proportionate, effective, efficient and designed to secure public confidence.
Mrs Murray
Can the Minister explain to me how this new unit will prevent my constituent, Dennis Hutchings, from being prosecuted, because I do not think that it will?
Mark Lancaster
My hon. Friend is aware that that is an ongoing process. She and I met, at her request, the last time we had such a debate to discuss her constituent in detail, and the ongoing support that he is receiving from the Ministry of Defence.
In delivering our manifesto commitment to consult on how the Stormont House agreement could be implemented, the Government are clear that they will not take forward any measure that could have the effect of targeting, discriminating against or otherwise putting at a disadvantage our veterans. As part of that commitment, the Defence Secretary has asked the Defence Committee to play a role in scrutinising the detail that has been proposed. In particular, he has asked the Committee for its views on whether what has been put forward will meet the Government’s aim that any future investigations will be conducted in a way that is balanced, proportionate, transparent, fair and equitable, with no prospect that veterans will be targeted or discriminated against.
Emma Little Pengelly
Is the Minister aware that the issue emerged in parallel with and subsequent to the Stormont House agreement through a decision by the chief constable to refer all state-related deaths to the case load of PSNI’s legacy unit, ergo it will go into the historical investigations unit? This is a new and emerging issue since the discussions on the Stormont House agreement.
Mark Lancaster
Of course, there are a number of emerging issues, and this is proving to be one of the difficulties in trying to get consensus on how we move forward. Members will also be aware of last year’s Defence Committee report recommending that a statute of limitations covering all troubles-related deaths involving the armed forces should be established, alongside a non-criminal mechanism for ascertaining the facts surrounding the deaths. That report, and indeed today’s debate, demonstrate that there is support for an alternative approach to dealing with the legacy of the past.
In the limited time I have, let me say that Members do not have to take the Government’s word on this. I am sorry that the Chair of the Defence Committee is not here, but I encourage all Members to look at that report and the legal evidence given to it over the challenges—that is probably the best way of describing them—about moving forward under the statute of limitations approach. That said, the whole purpose of the consultation is to try to move the issue forward. There is an open question as to how we move forward, and the suggestion of the hon. Member for North West Norfolk is a perfectly reasonable one to be put forward into the consultation. As we have just launched a consultation, it would be premature for me to commit to what that way forward will be. That is why I encourage everybody, particularly veterans and Members, to contribute to that consultation so that we can attempt to find a sensible way forward.
Leo Docherty
I am grateful to my right hon. and gallant Friend for giving way. Does he agree that theatres other than Northern Ireland, such as Iraq and Afghanistan, should be included in the consultation?
Mark Lancaster
The consultation, as published, is specific to Northern Ireland. However, this is a wider issue that impacts operations in other theatres. I take this opportunity, in the 20 seconds I have left, to pay tribute to my right hon. Friend the Member for Sevenoaks (Sir Michael Fallon), who did so much in his tenure as the Secretary of State for Defence to move these issues forward—not least when it comes to other theatres—by closing down IHAT from 30 June last year.
Defence
Lord Lancaster of Kimbolton Excerpts(6 years, 7 months ago)
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Mark Lancaster
We are clear that PESCO should strengthen the relationship with NATO and promote an open and competitive European defence industry, from which the UK will potentially benefit. As the hon. Gentleman knows, 17 projects have been proposed. We are particularly interested in the Dutch-led infrastructure project. [Official Report, European Committee A, 26 April 2018, c. 10.]
Letter of correction from Mark Lancaster:
An error has been identified in my speech in European Committee A on 26 April 2018.
The correct response should have been:
Mark Lancaster
We are clear that PESCO should strengthen the relationship with NATO and promote an open and competitive European defence industry, from which the UK will potentially benefit. As the hon. Gentleman knows, 17 projects have been proposed. We are particularly interested in the Dutch-led military mobility infrastructure project.
The following is an extract from European Committee A on EU Defence: Permanent Structured Co-operation on 26 April 2018.
Mark Lancaster
There is no direct comparison between the MPCC and NATO. It is not an operational headquarters. On scale, just to start, the established posts of the co-ordination cell for the three training missions number 35 posts, of which I understand currently just 12 are filled. With 12 posts filled, that does not have the feel to me of an organisation that is challenging NATO for operational control of EU missions. There are already five nationally-led operational missions. Once we leave the EU, it is not for us to dictate to our European partners how they wish to see this go forward, but given that only 12 of 35 posts have been filled by our EU colleagues, I do not sense that there is a massive drive to move it forward. [Official Report, European Committee A, 26 April 2018, c. 13.]
Letter of correction from Mark Lancaster:
An error has been identified in my speech in European Committee A on 26 April 2018.
The correct response should have been:
Mark Lancaster
There is no direct comparison between the MPCC and NATO. It is not an operational headquarters. On scale, just to start, the established posts of the co-ordination cell for the three training missions number 35 posts, of which I understand currently just 23 are filled. With 12 posts gapped, that does not have the feel to me of an organisation that is challenging NATO for operational control of EU missions. There are already five nation operational headquarters provided by member states. Once we leave the EU, it is not for us to dictate to our European partners how they wish to see this go forward, but given that only 23 of 35 posts have been filled by our EU colleagues, I do not sense that there is a massive drive to move it forward.
EU Defence: Permanent Structured Co-operation
Lord Lancaster of Kimbolton Excerpts(6 years, 7 months ago)
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The Minister for the Armed Forces (Mark Lancaster)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Bone. With up to an hour available for this part of our proceedings, I sense I will not run over time.
The Government welcome the debate and the keen interest shown in European security matters by the Committee. In particular, we value the Committee’s expertise in shedding light on the future security direction of the EU, not least through its most recent report. The Committee has noted that, as the UK negotiates its withdrawal as a member state, the EU is creating further military and bureaucratic structures in defence and security; I will address those structures in detail later. However, our overall approach is clear. In Munich, the Prime Minister said that our security at home is best advanced through global co-operation, and working with institutions that support that co-operation, including the EU.
Europe remains our continent; Europe’s security is our security. The challenge is finding the best way to work together through a deep and special partnership, not only retaining the co-operation that we have had to date but developing it to meet future needs. To that end, we have three priorities. First, we must work together to tackle shared threats. Those threats are pressing; they respect neither borders nor the niceties of administrative negotiations. Last month’s terrorist incident in Carcassonne reminded us once more of the horrors of extremism and the nerve agent attack on the streets of Salisbury showed a renewed determination by aggressor states, like Russia, to violate international norms.
European nations face not only escalating threats but threats that are connected in sinister fashion, so it is in our mutual interest to work together with the EU and others across all areas, including intelligence-sharing, counter-terrorism and on operations. Right now, more than 4,000 UK personnel are deployed on 21 operations in 25 countries across the world. Many are involved in operations that support the EU’s common security and defence policy. Operation Atalanta is successfully combating piracy off the coast of Somalia and Operation Sophia is tackling people-smuggling and illegal migration in the Mediterranean. There are also EU operations in Moldova, Georgia, Ukraine, Kosovo, Gaza and, of course, Africa. The training missions in Somalia, which I visited the week before last, in Mali and in the Central African Republic are cited in the motion that we will be debating. They complement the work that the UK is already undertaking in Africa, training 22,000 people to fight Boko Haram in Nigeria, combating human trafficking in Ethiopia, Eritrea and Kenya, and supporting France in combating extremism in the Sahel.
In a 21st-century world of increasingly complex threats, we need to continue to work closely with partners and allies. That is why, as the Committee’s report notes, the Government is seeking a close relationship between the UK and CSDP after we leave the EU. It is positive that the EU has expressed a desire to establish that new relationship as soon as possible. A partnership that respects both the decision-making autonomy of the European Union and the sovereignty of the United Kingdom is fully achievable.
We need not only to strengthen our operational output, but to improve our capabilities. Our long and successful history of technological collaboration with European partners must not stall. It is a massive stimulus to Europe’s competitiveness and capability, and supports tens of thousands of jobs across the continent. We are working together on a range of complex weapons projects, from A400M to Meteor through to Typhoon. Typhoon is a good example of European co-operation, a partnership between the UK, Germany, Italy and Spain that sustains 100,000 skilled jobs across Europe and has generated £15 billion in exports outside the EU.
Moreover, the UK brings a huge amount to the table: extensive operational experience, high-end capabilities, competitive industry and a large defence market that is one of the most open and competitive in the world. As well as having the largest defence budget in Europe, the UK spends 40% of the continent’s total defence research and development expenditure. Greater co-operation can put the UK and European defence industry in the best place to compete in the global market.
To make progress with that collaboration, we must keep open the option of working together in the European Defence Agency and through the European defence fund, but existing models of EU collaboration with third countries in the defence field are not designed to deal with a relationship of the depth we have and wish to maintain. We continue to explore options for how to develop joint capabilities. Such capabilities must, of course, fully complement other co-operative programmes, particularly those in NATO.
That brings me to my third priority, which is to ensure that whatever we agree with our European partners is in full alignment with NATO. Of the EU’s member states, 22 are also members of NATO, the most powerful alliance of modern times, which remains the cornerstone of UK and Euro-Atlantic defence and security. In recent times we have redoubled our efforts on behalf of the alliance. We are defending our eastern European allies in Estonia and Poland, policing Black sea skies and leading maritime missions across the globe. Yet, as we head toward the NATO summit in July, we must keep up the pressure on other EU member states to keep investing in NATO, and keep pressing for its structures to be streamlined so they can deploy forces quickly. In particular, each institution has tools that can complement the other, and we want to see them doing more together, be that on cyber-capabilities or on counter-terrorism. We believe the best way to encourage and deliver EU-NATO cooperation is to continue to engage fully in its development, both as a proactive NATO ally and while we remain an EU member state. That is why the Government welcome the addition of military mobility as an area of NATO-EU co-operation last December, and the European Defence Agency’s recent roadmap recommendations for the way forward.
That brings me back to the administrative structures we are considering today. After next March, the UK will no longer have veto rights or automatic representation at EU meetings. That is as it should be—a natural consequence of our taking back control of our own affairs. It is for the EU at 27 to decide what direction it wishes to take. PESCO has been driven forward as the centrepiece of the EU’s global strategy since 2016 by our French, German, Italian and Spanish colleagues. The UK position has consistently been to welcome that initiative as long as it results in driving up defence investment in Europe and developing the capability Europe needs for its own security. Moreover, our position has always been that we want to see PESCO develop in a way that is fully coherent with NATO and open to third country participation where there is a clear value in doing so—including for the UK and our defence industry. The UK is leaving the EU and we will not be part of a more integrated EU defence structure in the future. None the less, for the reasons I have given, it is in the UK’s national interest to continue to collaborate with our European partners. That may mean joining PESCO projects, not as a full member but as a third country.
The extent of our interest remains to be seen. PESCO is still very much in development. At present it is a political framework based on binding commitments that allows groups of participating member states to propose and pursue specific defence capability initiatives and projects. We have relatively little sense of whether PESCO will emerge as something substantial. For the moment, its focus is on capabilities, which makes sense, rather than operations, which would raise more complicated issues about its relationship to CSDP and, more widely, to NATO.
A Council decision on third state participation in PESCO is expected later this year. The UK will be fully involved in negotiations, and we will keep Parliament fully informed of developments. In doing so, we will remain fully alert to the risk of setting up EU structures that risk duplicating work that NATO is already doing. That is why we will continue to oppose the military planning and conduct capability becoming an operational headquarters in charge of executive—non-training—operations.
In conclusion, let me restate the key elements of the Government’s approach to the CSDP. Until 29 March 2019, the UK will be an EU member state, and as such will remain a full participant in the EU’s defence-related activities. Our task now is to find the best way to work together in the future. We believe that that will be easier if the EU does not create unnecessary duplication of NATO, and under no circumstances will the UK surrender the sovereignty of our armed forces. To reference the Prime Minister’s Munich speech again, those who threaten our security would like nothing better than to see us putting debates about mechanisms and means ahead of practical and effective action to keep our people safe.
We want quickly to agree a deep and special relationship on defence and security issues that respects both the decision-making autonomy of the European Union and the sovereignty of the United Kingdom. The Government believe that that is fully achievable—a view shared by leaders from across the EU, who have expressed their confidence that the UK-EU partnership will strengthen NATO as well. That is enormously encouraging. Together we are opening up an historic opportunity to renew and refresh not only our historic partnership with Europe but our network of alliances and friendships across the world.
The Chair
We now have until 12.36 pm for questions. We will start with the shadow Minister’s initial questions.
The Chair
I expect, Minister, that you will get inspiration shortly. It is fair enough to let the shadow Minister put his questions, and you can reply when you feel refreshed.
The Chair
That probably is a point of order. The answer is that the shadow Minister is in order, because I have the discretion to take the whole series in one go. I thought that would be quicker for the Committee, but if we want to slow it down, I can add an extra half an hour for questions on to the end. If we would prefer to do it that way, and the Minister would like to respond to questions individually—
Mark Lancaster
No; I sense that the hon. Member for Caerphilly is coming to the end of his questions.
Mark Lancaster
I have limited capacity, as we all recognise, but I will do my best. The first question was whether this subject would be better taken on the Floor of the House. I simply defer to the Whips and say that it is matter for the usual channels—I am sure they have noted the shadow Minister’s desire, which will be discussed elsewhere.
In effect, the next question asked for the Government’s vision. I recognise the hon. Gentleman wrote his questions before listening to my opening statement, but I think the opening statement pretty much outlined the Government’s vision. I will summarise it by saying that we would like a unique third-country partnership, enabling unprecedented levels of practical co-operation, to tackle common threats built on shared values and threats. As we move forward through what will be the negotiation period, we will begin to bottom-out some of that.
The first series of mini-questions revolved around PESCO. As I said in my opening statement, the UK did not join PESCO at a political level, but we are keen to collaborate at project level. We will negotiate that with the EU. We are particularly keen that we want that to develop in ways that are coherent in NATO. It is interesting to watch PESCO’s evolution. Originally, it was intended by a small group of forward leaning European nations to have the ability to move projects forward quickly. It will be interesting to see whether the fact that almost everybody has now joined PESCO defeats the object, which was to allow a fast-moving organisation. We will watch that with interest.
[Official Report, 3 May 2018,Vol. 640 c. 5MC.]We are clear that PESCO should strengthen the relationship with NATO and promote an open and competitive European defence industry from which the UK will potentially benefit. As the hon. Gentleman knows, 17 projects have been proposed. We are particularly interested in the Dutch-led infrastructure project. By way of reassurance, shortly before Christmas I attended the northern group meeting in Helsinki. As Committee members know, the northern group is a group of like-minded nations, some of whom are EU members, some of whom are NATO members and some but not all of whom are members of both. There is a very healthy discussion about the Dutch-led proposals for infrastructure.
It is in the UK interest that we can move our military assets around Europe. That is a good example of where the UK would be keen to participate. It is in both our interest and NATO’s interest. I am very pleased that the response at the latest council meeting of PESCO in March, where they reaffirmed those 17 projects, was that they were keen that there should be third-party contributions to individual projects. They are looking very carefully at how we and others could be involved. I find that promising—I am not concerned at this stage. We will look carefully at how we begin to move that forward.
The hon. Gentleman touched on the European Defence Agency. In general terms it is important to remember that during the transition period, we remain members of both the EDA and the EDF. We are keen to continue involvement. I was in Munich listening to the Prime Minister’s speech when said clearly that she wanted the UK to maintain access to both the EDA and the EDF. Exactly what form that will take we will negotiate over the next six months. The Committee should be encouraged by the European Council’s negotiating guidelines. They were very clear that:
“The EU stands ready to establish partnerships in areas unrelated to trade, in particular the fight against terrorism and international crime, as well as security, defence and foreign policy.”
That is a clear statement of intent by the European Union that, as we move forward, it is keen for countries such as us to look carefully at how we can work together. We have a unique status: we will be the only third party to the EU that is a former member. I think there are still tremendous opportunities.
On Galileo, our preference is to remain part of the programme, but we reject the EU position that once we leave there will be security implications for the UK. Following discussions with European colleagues, it is clear that there is not a universal view across Europe that the UK should be excluded from the programme. It is clear to me that our not being part of it would add enormous cost and delay to the project, which would not be in the interest of our European allies. We continue to negotiate the position, but if we get to a point where it is clear that we will not have some of the security benefits of being part of the programme, we shall look to do other things. We are not at that point. From my discussions with European colleagues, I think we still have a strong negotiating position, and we shall see what happens over the next few months.
Equally, we continue to consult ADS Group and other industry bodies. As the hon. Gentleman will have heard me say in my speech, the UK contributes more than 40% of the European R&D budget. I get slightly frustrated in sittings of European Committees when we discuss things as if the UK is in an incredibly weak bargaining position. We are a major contributor to European defence in both budgetary and physical terms.
It is interesting that, once we leave the EU, when it comes to enhanced forward presence, it will be a UK-led battlegroup delivering European security in Estonia. It will be a US battlegroup—also a non-EU member—delivering the enhanced forward presence in Poland, with the contribution of a squadron of Light Dragoons. We should not underplay how it is in the European interest for us to continue to be a part of many of the programmes in question, particularly when it comes to industry. We need only look at the success of Meteor, Typhoon and A400 to realise that it is in everyone’s interest that we continue to participate. I am not the pessimist that so many people seem to be when we discuss such things. I am forever an optimist and remain convinced that, at the end of the process and after our departure, we shall achieve our vision of a unique third-party status in working with the European Union.
I have done my best to answer a long list of initial questions.
The Chair
This might be a good point for the Minister to respond, but Galileo is slightly outside the scope of what we should be talking about, so perhaps he can do so briefly.
Mark Lancaster
I am not going to comment on speculation—that is the second time the hon. Gentleman has invited me to do so—and nor do I automatically believe everything I read in the press. I was fairly clear about our aspirations for Galileo. We have made it clear that we would like to stay part of the programme but, to be absolutely clear, if the restrictions placed on UK participation mean that we do not get the benefit we need out of it, we will leave. I go back to my earlier optimism. The impact on other European nations of the UK leaving this programme is that it will slow the programme down significantly. Certain UK assets utilised by Galileo would obviously not be available if we left, so let us see what happens.
Sir Robert Syms (Poole) (Con)
I listened carefully to the Minister’s statement, which was extremely sensible and pragmatic. Our principle concern is as a strong supporter of NATO, but we are taking a pragmatic approach to working with our European partners to ensure that that work is complementary to, rather than competitive with, NATO. The Government’s approach is sensible and is supported by NATO, and we should bless what the Government are doing and hope that we can work out further co-operation, particularly in the industrial area, where there may be future projects in which we want to participate.
Mark Lancaster
I am grateful for my hon. Friend’s question. He effectively summarises the Government’s position very well. We are being pragmatic but are equally optimistic. Without repeating myself, we believe that what UK industry has offered historically and continues to offer is of mutual benefit to our partners across Europe in delivering European security, but we have red lines. We are absolutely clear that, once we leave the EU, we will maintain sovereign control of our military assets, but there is a positive way forward.
Wayne David
Something the Minister touched on in his initial remarks was the military planning and conduct capability unit. It is important to emphasise that much of the co-operation we are talking about is essentially intergovernmental. The common security and defence policy is pivotal to that. Last year, we saw the creation of the military planning unit, which centralises decision making within the CSDP apparatus for the European Union. The major initiative it has taken so far is with regard to military training missions in Africa, to which the Minister has referred.
When Britain leaves the European Union, it is possible that the MPCC’s role could be expanded, which Britain has been against. Presumably, the Government would be somewhat concerned about that. Outside the European Union, will we be able to exercise any kind of influence, formally or informally, over its future work?
Mark Lancaster
There is no direct comparison between the MPCC and NATO. It is not an operational headquarters. On scale, just to start, the established posts of the co-ordination cell for the three training missions number 35 posts, of which I understand currently just 12 are filled. With 12 posts filled, that does not have the feel to me of an organisation that is challenging NATO for operational control of EU missions. There are already five nationally-led operational missions. Once we leave the EU, it is not for us to dictate to our European partners how they wish to see this go forward, but given that only 12 of 35 posts have been filled by our EU colleagues, I do not sense that there is a massive drive to move it forward.[Official Report, 3 May 2018,Vol. 640 c. 6MC.]
Wayne David
I thank the Minister for that response but, looking to the future, things may happen if Britain is not there at the table.
My final question relates to the Government’s decision not to be the framework nation for the EU battle group in the second half of 2019. Initially, the Government were keen to provide the framework for this battle group, but then we had a statement from Michel Barnier, who is in charge of the EU negotiations for the Commission. One of our senior military chiefs indicated that
“the offer of a battlegroup in the period immediately following our exit strikes us as an unnecessary complication.”
Does the Minister wish to comment on this “unnecessary complication”, and confirm that Britain will not participate in the EU battle group in the second half of 2019? I am concerned about that, and would welcome any reassurances the Minister can give.
Mark Lancaster
I can certainly confirm that it is our intention not to lead this battle group in the second half of 2019, which is after the point of our departure from the European Union. That is a perfectly pragmatic decision from military planning, because it can take some time with most countries’ rosters to prepare the appropriate battle group and be ready. An early announcement from us has simply enabled our European partners to fill that.
Equally, we must remember that we are currently involved in several EU missions, and the EU has made it clear that, after 29 March, the UK will no longer command any of those missions. That is their decision, not ours. It has an impact, for example, on Operation Atalanta, which is currently operating out of Northwood. We stand ready to ensure continuity and to do our bit until 29 March, but it is an issue for the EU. I am assured that it will take 40 weeks to move that headquarters, so the EU now has, by my own calculation, a matter of weeks to decide who will take over if we are stop running that headquarters on 29 March. Such decisions, however, are being made, effectively, by the EU.
Mr Fysh
I have a question for the Minister about the military mobility project, and what it means in practical terms. My understanding is that one of the key adjuncts to the project is having an adequate arrangement on customs and regulatory matters for the movement of assets. Will the Minister say a little more about which regulations and customs procedures are relevant in that context?
Mark Lancaster
I am sure I will be able to go into the detail of those regulations in my wind-up speech after the debate. On the military imperative, obviously we are members of NATO, but when it comes to land force reinforcement capability, that infrastructure across Europe is incredibly important. During the cold war, it was a highly honed system. I remember as a Royal Engineer every bridge in Germany having a clear military weight limit on it. It is about trying to re-establish that communication network to ensure that, if we have to reinforce militarily across Europe, that system is in place. The regulatory framework is slightly above my pay grade, but I hope to be able to give clarity on it shortly.
Darren Jones (Bristol North West) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Bone. The Minister will be pleased to know that I have only two short questions, specifically about the role of getting access for British industry to the European defence industrial development programme. I welcome the Minister’s response to us on the European Scrutiny Committee, when it was made clear that the European Commission’s view was that only those companies with either a majority of EU citizens or an EU domination would be able to get access and that we do seek access to procurement of defence equipment. Could the Minister help the Committee to understand the Government’s position on two points on the industrial strategy negotiations with Europe?
First, after the issue with GKN Melrose—many of my constituents work at GKN Melrose, for example, making wing components for the A400M military aircraft—has that given our friends in Europe confidence in our commitment to long-term procurement of defence capabilities in the UK in order to get access to the EDIDP after Brexit, or does he feel that that has weakened our position?
Secondly, on the customs union and specifically the components produced before aircraft or helicopters are made, many of my constituents make wing components, landing gears, engines and missiles in north Bristol. All the companies rely on the ability to move components into and out of Europe because we do not build, for example, F-35 fighter jets or Chinook helicopters entirely here in the UK. Does he feel that the Government’s position on not retaining membership of the customs union strengthens or weakens our position in our negotiations to maintain access and therefore get procurement contracts under the EDIDP?
Mark Lancaster
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, and in many ways he highlights some of the challenges that need to be addressed through negotiation. That is precisely why we are going through the negotiation period, but I go back to my starting point, which is that I believe there is a genuine will and acceptance that it is in everybody’s collective interest to continue the relationship we have had broadly in collaboration with our European partners. That is the very nature of how we worked before.
Where I do find some encouragement from both the EDA and the EDF is that there is an acceptance in the whole basis of those institutions that only by working collaboratively—I have already said twice that we are the biggest contributor to R&D in Europe—can we get the best when it comes to aligning our interests on European security. I remain confident that the issues that the hon. Gentleman raises will be resolved as we move forward.
Mr Fysh
On the point about helicopters, is the Minister aware that my constituency has an input into both of the Government’s desired streams when it comes to co-operation with the European Union? We have just seen Army Air Corps Wildcats deployed in Estonia from RNAS Yeovilton. One of the first projects in this new European defence funding world is an unmanned vehicle co-ordination project. Leonardo in Italy is involved in the co-ordination of the software around that, and the factory in Yeovil for Leonardo is very much involved in the units that might be able to be used in that in future. Does he think that that is an example of how we might work with our European friends?
Darren Jones
A small supplemental; I do not want the Committee to think I was dishonest in my statement about having two questions.
Further to the Minister’s answer to my question, he surely recognises that many of the businesses that produce components are having to make decisions today about how to deal with the customs union issue. They have to consider, for example, asking supply chain businesses to stockpile components in order for their just-in-time manufacturing to occur, and they have to consider the movement of people into or out of the European Union and perhaps moving manufacturing locations. Does he also recognise, therefore, their exasperation at his answer and the answer of his Government that everything is subject to negotiation and will all be fine? Perhaps he can enlighten the Committee as to when we might get some clarity on the detail so that we do not lose jobs and investment before it is too late.
Mark Lancaster
Negotiations on many of these issues will literally start towards the end of the year—the hon. Gentleman recognises that—because of the framework that was imposed by the EU. Equally, that is why I welcome the implementation period running all the way up until the end of 2020 when we continue to be a member of the European defence fund and the EDA. That has effectively bought time so that the negotiations can be settled and give a degree of certainty.
The Chair
If no more Members wish to ask questions, we will move on to the debate on the motion.
Motion made, and Question proposed,
That the Committee takes note of Council Decision 2017/971 of 8 June 2017 determining the planning and conduct arrangements for EU non-executive military CSDP missions and amending Decisions 2010/96/CFSP on a European Union military mission to contribute to the training of Somali security forces, 2013/34/CFSP on a European Union military mission to contribute to the training of the Malian armed forces, and (CFSP) 2016/610 on a European Union CSDP military training mission in the Central African Republic; further takes note of European Union Documents No. 14866/17 Council Decision establishing Permanent Structured Cooperation (PESCO) and determining the list of participating Member States; further takes note of Council Recommendation of 6 March 2018 concerning a roadmap for the implementation of PESCO and Council Decision (CFSP) 2018/340 of 6 March 2018 establishing the list of projects to be developed under PESCO; and agrees with the Government’s conclusion that PESCO must be designed in way that strengthens the relationship with NATO and promotes an open and competitive European defence industry.
Mark Lancaster
We have had a wide-ranging and, I hope, informative debate. I thank hon. Members for their ongoing engagement. [Interruption.] Oh look! Let there be light. I have shed some light on this debate.
Mark Lancaster
I am not sure how Hansard will deal with that.
I thank hon. Members for their ongoing engagement with these important issues. I hope that these points of information and clarification have been helpful to the Committee. Perhaps they have not been as helpful as some hon. Members would have hoped, but I can only go back to the implementation period, which I hope offers a degree of certainty and protection for their constituents.
I have probably covered most of the points raised, but I will add a couple of comments on military mobility. The UK has been supportive of military mobility initiatives, because we recognise the need to resolve common impediments that restrict our ability to deploy forces rapidly. There are various work strands across both the EU and NATO that are looking at this. Specifically on regulations, the EDA’s roadmap on military mobility looks at the legal, customs and military requirements and cross-border permissions. We have been actively involved in the development of the EDA’s roadmap and regularly attend those workshops. We are supportive of the efforts to try to simplify and standardise the legal and customs issues.
When it comes to EDIDP projects, to be honest, the programme has not yet been established so it is difficult to speculate on exactly what it will entail. That is why we are particularly keen that we should have a flexible framework—so that if and when the UK wants to participate, we will have a mechanism for doing so.
I hope I have made clear that Brexit does not affect the strength of our commitments to the defence of our continent and to humanitarian good across the world. I conclude by restating the commitment to keep the Committee abreast of developments in these issues. When I review Hansard, if there are any questions that I have failed to address, I will endeavour to write to hon. Members.
Question put and agreed to.
Oral Answers to Questions
Lord Lancaster of Kimbolton Excerpts(6 years, 8 months ago)
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Mary Robinson (Cheadle) (Con)
The Minister for the Armed Forces (Mark Lancaster)
I discuss armed forces recruitment regularly with the principal personnel officers of each service and with the Chief of the General Staff. Implementation of the recruitment improvement plan is a priority and I am monitoring it very closely.
Sir Desmond Swayne
How will the Minister recruit and train sufficient engineers?
Mark Lancaster
My right hon. Friend makes a very important point. This is precisely why, in the Royal Navy, for example, we have associations with technical colleges. In my own corps, the Royal Engineers, we have a tremendous offer, in which young recruits are enrolled as apprentices and trained not only as infantry soldiers but in specialist engineering trade skills, such as brick laying, electrical and carpentry.
Mary Robinson
A constituent of mine, Mr Lamb, served in the Army for 43 years, the last 13 being spent in recruitment. Contract changes meant that in January this year he was discharged 72 days before his 60th birthday and his planned retirement date. He tells me that, despite senior officers seeking to find him employment, the date was fixed and he lost 72 days of his pension. Will the Minister look carefully at how Capita is fulfilling its contract so that recruitment personnel are not disadvantaged?
Mark Lancaster
My hon. Friend is a champion for her constituents. As she knows, I wrote to her on 26 March regarding this matter. I would be delighted to meet her again if she has any further questions she wishes to raise with me.
In general terms, we work closely with Capita. I have mentioned before at the Dispatch Box how we are looking at moving to a more regional recruiting mechanism and ensuring that we have young role models.
John Spellar (Warley) (Lab)
I congratulate the right hon. Member for New Forest West (Sir Desmond Swayne) on asking this question on the day Capita has announced a loss of half a billion pounds. That comes as no surprise when we look at the mess it is making of the recruitment project, which is not a channel for recruitment but a logjam. There are huge delays, with many people losing interest in the meantime. Will the Minister admit that the contract has failed and that it is time to bring it back in-house?
Mark Lancaster
I do not accept that. I have looked at this incredibly carefully. I have met the chief executive of Capita on several occasions and we continue to work very closely with Capita, which is investing large amounts of money. There have been challenges—there is no doubt about that—with the introduction of the new defence recruiting system. The manual workarounds have not worked, but I have seen at first hand now how most of those issues have been addressed and I am confident that, in future months, we will move forward with this contract.
Ian C. Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)
Does the Minister think that decisions such as moving the Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineers HQ from the proud military town of Wrexham to yet another base in the M4 corridor incentivises recruitment in places such as north Wales, or puts people off?
Mark Lancaster
It is important that, through the Army 2020 review, we begin to bring units together because that gives greater stability. What I would say to the hon. Gentleman’s constituents is that it is not only the REME that they can join in the armed forces.
Mr Mark Francois (Rayleigh and Wickford) (Con)
Capita’s performance on Army recruiting has been distinctly sub-optimal, such that throughout the Army it is now almost universally known by the unfortunate nickname of “Crapita.” Given the company’s half-a-billion pound loss this morning, given that it has debts of £1.7 billion, and given that it is rumoured to be preparing a £700 million rights issue, what assurance can the Minister give the House that we have a plan B in place in case it were unfortunately to go the way of CarillionAmey?
Mark Lancaster
May I start by thanking my right hon. Friend, not least for his report, “Filling the Ranks”? It has made a major contribution to addressing some of the issues that we have faced over recruitment, some of which are way beyond the realms of any contract with Capita and are a result of the changing dynamics of the British population. But I accept his broader point that there have been challenges within this contract. If he is asking me if I am confident that we have a business continuity plan in case things go absolutely awry, which I do not think they will, then yes.
Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)
Does the Minister agree that the armed forces used to have a reputation for having the best trainers in our country? They were admired everywhere. Is he also aware that the number of people coming to our armed forces with the highly specific engineering skills that we need—my father was a Royal Engineer—is dire at the moment? We need recruitment, and we need it now.
Mark Lancaster
The hon. Gentleman builds on the point made by my right hon. Friend the Member for New Forest West (Sir Desmond Swayne). We have a number of schemes in place, such as partnerships with technical colleges and ensuring that all new recruits are enrolled on apprenticeships. There are few careers where someone can start with minimal qualifications and leave with a level 6 apprenticeship—that is degree level—in engineering. I am very proud that the armed forces continue to offer that opportunity to our young people.
Paul Blomfield (Sheffield Central) (Lab)
David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)
The Minister for the Armed Forces (Mark Lancaster)
Don’t worry, Mr Speaker; I will endeavour to speak very slowly, for a change, and maybe at length.
We have a strong and enduring defence relationship with our allies in the Baltic states. Since April last year, UK forces have been deployed in Estonia as part of NATO’s enhanced forward presence. The UK acts as the framework station in Estonia, leading a defensive but combat-capable multinational battlegroup to deter aggression. The UK also contributes to the US-led enhanced forward presence battlegroup in Poland.
David Hanson
This might be an opportunity to give a lecture on Estonian, Lithuanian and Polish relations with the UK—while keeping you happy in your Chair, Mr Speaker. In the meantime, I very much welcome what the Secretary of State has said about the increased support to the Baltic states. Will the Minister also look at the possibility of giving training and support to members of the Baltic states’ armed forces in the UK? He will be aware that a recent parliamentary question revealed the fact that no one from Lithuania, Latvia or Poland had attended the MOD’s highest profile UK-based courses. Is that not something that we should try to rectify?
Mark Lancaster
I would be delighted to look at that. Indeed, I am sure that the House will be delighted to know that the one request I received from just about every nation when I was travelling in east Africa last week was for further places on UK training courses—our Royal College of Defence Studies, our advanced command and staff course, our higher command and staff course, or even at Sandhurst. Places on such courses are incredibly valued by overseas nations. Unfortunately, demand exceeds supply, but I will look carefully at what more we can do to support our Baltic colleagues.
Liz Twist (Blaydon) (Lab)
Gill Furniss (Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough) (Lab)
The Minister for the Armed Forces (Mark Lancaster)
We are committed to maintaining the overall size of the armed forces. The services are meeting all their current commitments, keeping the country and its interests safe.
Mark Lancaster
I do not recognise those figures. We have just done a review of the pilot training scheme and will shorten and simplify the process, which has not changed much in the past 30 years. Owing to successes in selling our aircraft overseas, some of our pilot training system is occupied by overseas pilots, so we need to look carefully at how to find a balance to ensure that, with the limited capacity available, we can continue to train all the pilots we need.
Gill Furniss
A recent NAO report found a 26% shortfall in the staffing of intelligence analysis in the armed forces, but those specialists are crucial to our national security and to our fight against cyber-crime. Given the threats of information warfare from a variety of disparate groups—from terrorist organisations to states such as Russia—does the Minister agree that we cannot keep our country safe on the cheap?
Mark Lancaster
We are certainly not keeping our country safe on the cheap, which is why we have committed to spending more than 2% of GDP, and our defence budget will continue to rise from £36 billion this year. However, I agree with the hon. Lady that we need to find innovative solutions when it comes to recruiting cyber-specialists, which is precisely why we are now doing that in the reserves. We have changed the rules about who can join and their backgrounds, which has proven to be a tremendous success.
John Mann (Bassetlaw) (Lab)
The Minister for the Armed Forces (Mark Lancaster)
Last year, the Department deployed the British Army to Malawi for four months to run counter-poaching training in support of the Foreign Secretary’s aim to combat the illegal wildlife trade. It is a role that plays to the strengths of our young commanders and soldiers, who are experts in fieldcraft, tactics and intelligence fusion. It is a testament to the quality of their training of the rangers that arrests in Liwonde, Malawi, have increased by 50%.
John Mann
With our ivory trade ban and our summit this autumn, what an opportunity we have not only to assist the work in Africa, but to give some of our armed forces real experience in training and, potentially, the use of drones. Could we not expand this training opportunity alongside this autumn’s summit?
Mark Lancaster
After the success of the pilot project, which has been funded for three years, I am delighted to report that we will indeed be doing exactly that and will be expanding the programme to two more wildlife parks in Malawi. That sits exactly within the priorities of Her Majesty’s Government’s Africa strategy, which runs across three Departments.
Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con)
Has the Minister also had discussions with the Government of the United Republic of Tanzania, where huge numbers of elephants have been lost over the past 20 years, particularly in the Selous game reserve? If he has not had such discussions, perhaps they could be offered to the United Republic of Tanzania.
Mark Lancaster
Indeed, poaching is responsible for the deaths of approximately 20,000 elephants every year, which is why I am delighted that the pilot project seems to have made such a positive impact over the past year. As I have already mentioned, we will be looking to expand the project as part of the Government’s Africa strategy.
Armed Forces Covenant: Northern Ireland
Lord Lancaster of Kimbolton Excerpts(6 years, 9 months ago)
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The Minister for the Armed Forces (Mark Lancaster)
Let me begin by congratulating the right hon. Member for Lagan Valley (Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson) on his remarks. He is very much a champion for veterans in Northern Ireland, as indeed are so many of his party. His passion for this subject is well known and certainly came across in his speech. I join him in paying tribute to the enormous service and sacrifice of all the members of our armed forces from Northern Ireland.
The right hon. Gentleman referred to the absence of some colleagues. I say with the greatest respect to the shadow Labour Northern Ireland Ministers on the Front Bench that the absence of any shadow Defence Ministers has not gone unnoticed by the House. I am absolutely sure that that is not meant as any disrespect to the House. None the less it is a certain disappointment, considering the subject of our debate.
This year in particular, we remember the unparalleled contribution of Northern Ireland veterans to the spring offensive on the western front a century ago. We also recall their heroism in more recent operations, from the turmoil of the troubles to operations in Afghanistan and against Daesh extremists in Iraq. It has been my privilege to serve alongside many soldiers from Northern Ireland. Their passion and commitment has always been exemplary. As a reservist, I note with pride that more than twice as many Northern Irish citizens volunteer for the reserves, compared with the national average. For example, 502 Squadron Royal Auxiliary Air Force was only founded in 2012 but has grown rapidly to a strength of some 130. Alongside the other regular and reserve units across Northern Ireland, they embody the potent mix of our armed forces.
We are determined to ensure that all those who serve with our armed forces have the support that they need, from whatever part of the United Kingdom they come. In discussing these issues, we should start by recognising that veterans who live in Northern Ireland are entitled to receive the same level of support from the Ministry of Defence as those who live in England, Scotland and Wales. If any member of the armed forces, past or present, or their family wishes to access our recently launched veterans’ gateway or our new freephone Combat Stress mental health helpline, they can do so.
As hon. Friends will be aware, the covenant is a promise not just from Defence, but from the whole Government on behalf of our nation. It is a recognition that every part of our nation has a moral obligation to help those who lay their lives on the line for us—a duty to guarantee that no one who is serving, or who has served, for this country should suffer any disadvantage as a result of that service in relation to the rest of society. The covenant, however, is not prescriptive. Its voluntary nature means that there has never been a one-size-fits-all approach. Different parts of the country take a different approach, tailored to their particular circumstances. In the case of Northern Ireland, the covenant is being applied in a manner that suits the unique nature of its circumstances.
Four years on from the last time that we debated this subject, I am pleased to see that progress has been made, as the right hon. Member for Lagan Valley acknowledged. I had the great pleasure of visiting Northern Ireland twice last year, when I was the Minister responsible for veterans and personnel. I saw at first hand the needs of the armed forces community there and the commendable work being undertaken on behalf of our personnel. I also had the enormous pleasure of attending Armed Forces Day in the constituency of the hon. Member for North Down (Lady Hermon), who has also been a sterling champion for veterans and members of the armed forces for many a year in Bangor.
Lady Hermon
I am grateful to the Minister for giving way because it allows me to put on the record how delighted and proud we were that he was present in Northern Ireland, which is an integral part of the United Kingdom, for Armed Forces Day, and we hope he has kept the instructions on how to get back, because although the Prime Minister only has time to come occasionally, it is wonderful when MOD Ministers come and remind everyone there that Northern Ireland is indeed an integral part of the United Kingdom.
Mark Lancaster
I am grateful to the hon. Lady. I was actually in Northern Ireland a couple of weeks ago, as indeed was my right hon. Friend the veterans Minister, who was there for Remembrance Sunday.
Whether it is the work of the newly formed Veterans Support Office, operating in tandem with the Confederation of Service Charities to improve co-ordination between statutory bodies and service charities; the work of veterans champions, located in each of the 11 local authorities in Northern Ireland and linked with the VSO, tirelessly keeping the concerns of personnel in the community spotlight; or the work building on the bespoke aftercare service referred to by the right hon. Gentleman and provided by the Ulster Defence Regiment and the Royal Irish, after referral from the Regional Personnel Recovery Unit within 38 (Irish) Brigade, there is plenty going on, but as we have heard, that is not to pretend that there are not still significant challenges to overcome.
When I visited Northern Ireland last March, I also had the sombre privilege of meeting some of those who had served during the troubles and, as a result, suffered from profound mental health issues. It is a reminder that for too many veterans living in Northern Ireland the scars of experience remain all too raw, as was equally highlighted by the right hon. Gentleman. That is why the MOD is supporting the Ulster University study, funded by the Forces in Mind Trust, into the needs of the Northern Ireland service community.
At the same time, we know that there is a need to continue raising awareness of the help already out there and, in particular, the different ways to access funding. We have already seen the LIBOR veterans fund providing £600,000 for the Somme nursing home in Belfast, and small grants have been made to support community integration projects and recreation facilities for the armed forces community in Northern Ireland. By comparison with other parts of the UK, however, applications for covenant funding remain low. That is why we have committed to providing £300,000 over five years to improve the capacity and capability of local authorities and other bodies in Northern Ireland to bid for covenant funding.
Some hon. Members will feel we should go further still—some might suggest it is time to introduce further statutory instruments to increase uptake—but although I am ready to listen to the arguments on a case-by-case basis, I would make the point that the problem is not about the lack of mechanisms. Let us not forget, as has been mentioned, that besides the instruments already in place, there is section 75. I listened very carefully to what the right hon. Gentleman said, but it is a cornerstone of the Belfast agreement. It is about more than the avoidance of discrimination; it charges public authorities to actively seek ways to encourage greater equality of opportunity and good relations. It is the view of the Government that the armed forces covenant does not contravene section 75. As was highlighted by the exchange between the right hon. Gentleman and the hon. Member for North Down, that is also the view of the Equality Commission for Northern Ireland.
Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson
For the purpose of clarity, my contention is not that the armed forces covenant contravenes section 75; it is that Government Departments in Northern Ireland believe that implementing the covenant may contravene it. I believe, therefore, that adding veterans as a clear category in section 75 would provide the clarity required to put this beyond doubt.
Mark Lancaster
As ever, the right hon. Gentleman makes his point in a perfectly reasonable manner. He should be reassured that the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland was here when he made that point earlier, and I know that she took on board his comments. Perhaps, for now, he should seek some reassurance in that.
For me, even more important than the legal devices is the willingness of different groups across Northern Ireland—local authorities, businesses and the third sector—to come together and partner up. Slowly but surely, we are seeing that start to happen, but we need to accelerate the process and encourage different organisations to combine their resources and raise awareness of the help on offer. On that note, I should add that if Members are aware of any disadvantage suffered by members of the armed forces in Northern Ireland, they should report it to me or to colleagues in the Ministry of Defence so that we can attempt to address them quickly.
Let me reassure Members, and every single man and woman in our armed forces, that we are utterly committed and determined to ensure that all those who have contributed so much to our nation continue to receive the support that they deserve. In the four years since our last debate, much has already improved, but today’s debate will only spur us on in our quest to extend the protection of the covenant to all.
Oral Answers to Questions
Lord Lancaster of Kimbolton Excerpts(6 years, 9 months ago)
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The Minister for the Armed Forces (Mark Lancaster)
The Royal Navy is growing for the first time in a generation, with the Queen Elizabeth class aircraft carriers and new submarines, frigates, patrol vessels and aircraft. The Royal Navy continues to meet the demands we place on it and maintains its operational edge.
Luke Pollard
With the sale of HMS Ocean, Devonport and the nation have lost a third of our Royal Navy amphibious assault ships. In more and more uncertain times, can the Minister reassure people in Plymouth that Devonport will not see any more cuts to frigates, amphibious assault ships and survey ships such as HMS Scott in the upcoming review?
Mark Lancaster
I certainly take this opportunity to underline our thanks to the people of Plymouth for their age-old commitment to and support for the Royal Navy. I absolutely assure the hon. Gentleman that Devonport will continue to be one of the cornerstone bases of the Royal Navy in future. As he will be aware, we only recently allocated the location of the Type 23 frigates. We are doing more work on the location of the Type 26 frigates, and we hope to be able to announce that shortly.
Richard Drax (South Dorset) (Con)
I must declare an interest, Mr Speaker: my grandfather and father both served in the Royal Navy, and both would be turning in their graves at the size of the Royal Navy. Although I quite accept the financial difficulty that the Minister has, does he accept from me that the threats from around the world—not least from China, which is talked about too seldom—are growing? We are sending one ship, I think, across the waters to the south of China. I ask the Minister, please, for an assurance that the Royal Navy’s size and capability will be increased.
Mark Lancaster
My hon. Friend will be aware of the recent deployment of HMS Sutherland, and there will be further such deployments in future to that part of the world.
For the first time in a generation, the Royal Navy is actually growing. It grew in manpower last year and will continue to grow over the next couple of years, and not just in manpower—the size of its surface fleet is also growing. The latest of the offshore patrol vessels arrived in Portsmouth only this weekend.
John Woodcock (Barrow and Furness) (Lab/Co-op)
Given everything that the Minister’s boss has just said about the importance of NATO, the deterrent and the threat from Russia, it would be absolutely unthinkable, would it not, not to order the full quota of seven Astute class submarines?
Mark Lancaster
The hon. Gentleman is a champion of his constituency and repeatedly comes to the House to support the work that his constituents have done for generations in building our submarines. I am very confident that shortly he will have the news that he wishes for.
Alex Chalk (Cheltenham) (Con)
When HMS Queen Elizabeth puts to sea, it will need a fleet of frigates and destroyers to escort and protect it. Will my right hon. Friend reassure the House that the Royal Navy has sufficient vessels to perform that vital task while protecting our shores at home?
Mark Lancaster
Yes, indeed, I can reassure my hon. Friend that the Royal Navy continues to meet all its operational requirements. As I said a few moments ago, the size of our fleet will increase in the years to come.
Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)
The Minister will be aware that the National Audit Office has produced a scathing report on the Ministry of Defence’s equipment plan for 2017 to 2027. It says that there is a £20.8 billion gaping black hole in the MOD’s budget. Can the Minister tell me why the Type 31e frigate is not even referred to in the equipment plan?
Mark Lancaster
It is a little bit rich when the hon. Gentleman comes to the Dispatch Box to criticise this Government over supposed black holes in defence spending, given the previous Labour Government’s record in this area, but I am sure the Defence Procurement Minister, my hon. Friend the Member for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb), will write to him to explain why that is the case.
Maggie Throup (Erewash) (Con)
James Cleverly (Braintree) (Con)
The Minister for the Armed Forces (Mark Lancaster)
The UK has a key role in NATO’s enhanced forward presence by leading a battlegroup in Estonia and contributing to a US-led battlegroup in Poland. We have deployed about 800 personnel to Estonia and about 150 to Poland. These deployments are but part of our broader commitment to NATO and its assurance measures on the alliance’s eastern flank.
James Cleverly
I thank the Minister for that response. Does he agree with me that both our security and our economy rely on the confidence placed in us by our NATO allies that we will, in the event of an article 5 situation, be both ready and willing to support our eastern flank NATO allies?
Mark Lancaster
My hon. Friend makes a very important point. It is absolutely right that hard power is an important part of maintaining our defence and security. Indeed, the vice-chief of the defence staff said the same last week, and he made a strong case for spending more on defence. Our armed forces and our civilians in defence must and do work in partnership with other Departments in international development and, indeed, diplomacy.
Liz Twist (Blaydon) (Lab)
The Minister for the Armed Forces (Mark Lancaster)
I continue to monitor the recruiting partnering project very closely.
Liz Twist
Recruiting people into our armed forces today is more important than ever. The Defence Secretary said recently: “We’re working closely with Capita to make the contract work better”. Can the Minister give some specific examples of that work? How will he assess whether performance has improved, and in what timeframe?
Mark Lancaster
Defence has been working closely with Capita on a recruitment improvement plan, which is now being implemented. Initial signs are promising. We now expect Capita to deliver on improvements in converting applicants to enlistees. We will monitor progress closely in the coming months, including ensuring that the new defence recruiting system reaches full operating capability as quickly as possible.
Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con)
Mark Lancaster
There is an awful lot going on at the moment. We are working closely with Capita. It would be wrong to say that there have not been challenges in implementing the defence recruiting system. There is also a change in demographics in the UK. That is why we are working so hard to widen our recruiting base and have set targets to recruit from both the BAME—black, Asian and minority ethnic—and female populations. There has been an increase of some 2.6% over the year, but we must do all we can to continue to ensure that joining the armed forces is an attractive occupation. I am particularly proud that the Army is now the largest employer of apprentices in the UK, which is something that we intend to continue.
Damien Moore (Southport) (Con)
Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)
The Minister for the Armed Forces (Mark Lancaster)
There is a contingency plan, which we are looking at very closely, where we will be moving probably about 150 personnel to act as role models on the frontline for recruiting.
Stephen Morgan (Portsmouth South) (Lab)
Mark Lancaster
One of the complexities of the Reserve estate is that much of it is owned not by the Ministry of Defence, but by the Reserve forces themselves. This is adding some complexity, but we hope to be able to update the House in due course.
Stephen Crabb (Preseli Pembrokeshire) (Con)
Does my right hon. Friend agree that the further set of defence commitments reached by the Prime Minister and President Macron at the summit in January represents not just the deepening of this important bilateral relationship, but a strengthening of NATO?
Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab)
Mark Lancaster
As I mentioned earlier, we have seen some improvement in recent weeks. The numbers are increasing and that is a positive sign.
Alan Mak (Havant) (Con)
Will my right hon. Friend join me in congratulating Lockheed Martin, which is based in Havant, on having just been awarded the contract to build the new missile defence system for the Type 26 frigate?
Leo Docherty (Aldershot) (Con)
Today’s Daily Telegraph continues to report grave concerns about the Iraq fatality investigations unit. Will the Minister agree to urgently review the case of Major Robert Campbell and offer reassurance to our service community that the bond of trust between soldiers and the Government remains intact?
Mark Lancaster
My hon. Friend makes a powerful point. This is not about process but about people and the Government’s obligation to look after them, and a balance needs to be struck between supporting our service personnel and veterans and the right of Iraqi families to find out what happened to their loved ones. I should add that an Iraq fatality investigation cannot lead to a criminal conviction, but I will look carefully at what he has said.
Christine Jardine (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Can the Minister confirm that Carillion was the largest provider of facilities and management services for the MOD and whether there are any gaps in services at the 360 UK defence sites and establishments it reportedly had contracts for?
Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con)
Reports suggest that of the near 100,000 who wanted to join the Army last year, only 7,500 actually made it, in part because of time delays. What can be done to streamline the recruitment process?
Mark Lancaster
My hon. Friend makes a valuable point. We have identified as a key problem the time of flight between application and enlisting in the Army. Shortening this period and making sure we get the maximum number of people through the system is the main focus of our work at the moment.
Mr Speaker
For a short single-sentence question without commas or semicolons, I call Chi Onwurah.
Kirsty Blackman (Aberdeen North) (SNP)
Will the Minister follow the Scottish Government’s lead and commit to lifting the public sector pay cap for armed forces workers?
Fatalities in Northern Ireland and British Military Personnel
Lord Lancaster of Kimbolton Excerpts(6 years, 11 months ago)
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The Minister for the Armed Forces (Mark Lancaster)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Buck. I remind the House of my interest as a member of the Army Reserve, although Northern Ireland is one of the few places where I have not seen operational service. I am grateful to my right hon. Friend the Member for New Forest East (Dr Lewis) for his Committee’s thoughtful report on a sensitive and complex issue, and for securing this debate. I am also grateful for the incredibly powerful contributions made this afternoon. The hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent North (Ruth Smeeth) focused on people. My hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, Moor View (Johnny Mercer) has been such a champion in this area. I am particularly grateful to him for his concern about my health. I have not been laid low with man flu, but I tell him gently that if I were, as a fine Royal Engineer I probably would not seek the sympathy of the House; I would just man up and get on with it.
The hon. Member for Belfast East (Gavin Robinson) gave a really passionate speech. The attention he got from the Chamber was well-deserved. He highlighted many of the challenges that we all face. My hon. Friend the Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart) gave such a passionate speech about his experiences and the pressures placed on our security forces. I am grateful to the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon), who had to go and speak in another debate. My hon. Friend the Member for South East Cornwall (Mrs Murray) gave a passionate plea on behalf of her constituent Dennis Hutchings. If she would like a meeting with me, we can discuss the matter in more detail. That is the best way that we can move that forward.
Around 250,000 service personnel served in Northern Ireland as part of Operation Banner between 1969 and 2007. Our armed forces played a vital role in providing safety and security, and in bringing about the conditions for peace. As the then Bishop of London, Dr Richard Chartres, put it at a service to mark the end of Operation Banner,
“Force cannot in the end resolve social conflict but it can offer a vital breathing space in which the normal processes of democratic debate and decision making can re-assert themselves. Military intervention can hold the forces of chaos at bay while people learn again how communities with different histories and aspirations can live together and do business with one another. Operation Banner kept open that vital pass”.
I pay tribute to all those who served, especially the more than 1,000 security personnel who sadly lost their lives in doing so, as well as all those who were injured and killed. In total more than 3,500 people were killed during the troubles, with terrorists responsible for 90% of those deaths. The arrangements for investigating those deaths have, over the years, been subject to increasing criticism. There is broad agreement in Northern Ireland that the current systems and structures are not delivering enough for victims, survivors or wider society.
The closure of the Historical Enquiries Team in December 2014 has left more than 1,000 cases outstanding, the vast majority of which are terrorist killings. The Northern Ireland courts risk being overwhelmed by the demands placed on them by historical inquests; there are 50 inquests currently open into almost 100 troubles-related deaths. Where criminal investigations are taking place, they are on a largely ad hoc basis, feeding the concern felt by some that there is an imbalance in the mechanisms in place, which results in a disproportionate focus on those deaths that in some way involve the state. The Government are clear about the problems with the status quo.
After 11 weeks of intensive talks, the Stormont House agreement in December 2014 reached a broad political agreement to establish four institutions to address what is sometimes described in Northern Ireland as the legacy of the past. We continue to seek the implementation of the legacy institutions set out in the Stormont House agreement as the best way to address Northern Ireland’s past in a way that is fair, balanced and proportionate.
The key institution relevant to today’s debate is the proposed Historical Investigations Unit. The HIU would be an independent body responsible for completing outstanding investigations into troubles-related deaths. It would be required to act in a manner that is fair, impartial, proportionate, effective and efficient, and designed to secure the independence of the HIU and the confidence of the public. The HIU would be required to work through its case load in chronological order and to complete its work within five years.
It is clear that action is needed on so-called legacy inquests. For example, in 2013 only two legacy inquests were completed and both have subsequently had their conclusions appealed, one successfully. None was completed in 2014. Better progress has been made since, and the Government support the work of the Lord Chief Justice of Northern Ireland in putting together a reform plan for the legacy inquests for the Northern Ireland Executive. I hope that a new Executive can be formed soon, so that they can reach a view on how this element of the package of legacy reform can be taken forward.
The Government are committed to the Stormont House agreement and believe that the next phase is to consult publicly on the details of how the new institutions could work in practice. A public consultation will provide everyone who has an interest with the opportunity to see the proposals and contribute to the discussion on the issues. The consultation will include a draft Bill, which I am sure all hon. Members here will want to scrutinise in detail.
The consultation will also do something else. The Defence Committee’s important report, and indeed today’s debate, demonstrate that some people believe that the time has come for Northern Ireland to consider an alternative approach to dealing with the legacy of the past—an approach other than the pursuit of further criminal investigations. The Committee recommended
“the enactment of a statute of limitations, covering all Troubles-related incidents, up to the signing of the 1998 Belfast Agreement, which involved former members of the Armed Forces. This should be coupled with the continuation and development of a truth recovery mechanism which would provide the best possible prospect of bereaved families finding out the facts, once no-one needed to fear being prosecuted.”
A cross-party letter to the Prime Minister signed by my right hon. Friend the Member for New Forest East, who is the Committee’s Chairman, along with the hon. Member for Barnsley Central (Dan Jarvis), the hon. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones) and my hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, Moor View, went further. The letter drew on expert evidence that a statute of limitations would fall foul of international law if it applied only to servants of the state, and recognised changes that the Northern Ireland (Sentences) Act 1998 made to sentencing for offences related to the troubles. In the light of that, the letter argued that the time had come for a statute of limitations that covered all, including paramilitaries. I know that many, both inside and outside this place, agree with that position, while others, as we have heard, will not.
As there are a range of views, and recognising the view of the Committee, the Government have decided to include within the legacy consultation a question on alternative ways of addressing the legacy of the past, such as a statute of limitations or amnesty. While the Government are clear that in their view the best way forward is to proceed with the Stormont House agreement institutions, in the spirit of meaningful consultation, all views will be considered carefully to inform the next steps.
My right hon. Friend the Member for New Forest East asked whether the Northern Ireland (Sentences) Act applies to members of the security forces as well as paramilitaries. Yes, it does, provided the eligibility criteria set out in the Act are met. In practice, no former members of the security forces have been convicted of relevant offences since the passing of the Act, so it has not yet been used in this way.
The hon. Member for Belfast East mentioned that two members of the security forces were in prison at the time of the Good Friday agreement and did not benefit from early release under the scheme. The soldiers in question were released under licence by the then Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, who had been considering their case before the Northern Ireland (Sentences) Act became law. That case does not demonstrate that members of the security forces are debarred from making use of the provisions of the Act.
Going back to the consultation, while all views are important, I am particularly keen that armed forces veterans be given an opportunity to have their say, so I will ensure that the consultation, once published—I hope that will be soon—is distributed to veterans, including through our network of excellent regimental secretaries.
Finding a better way to address Northern Ireland legacy matters is a priority for the UK Government. The Defence Committee’s report is an important contribution to the debate on how best to do that. Now is the time, through the forthcoming consultation, for everyone with an interest in addressing Northern Ireland’s past to have their say.
British Armed Forces: Size and Strength
Lord Lancaster of Kimbolton Excerpts(6 years, 11 months ago)
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Douglas Chapman (Dunfermline and West Fife) (SNP)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Dorries.
With yesterday’s shipbuilding strategy debate and the expected statement from the Secretary of State, which is now in doubt, this week is turning into a bit of a defence-fest. This is an important debate at a time when defence is very much in the headlines, and I thank the hon. Member for Aldershot (Leo Docherty) for introducing it.
The situation is complex, but the bottom line is the significant drop in the size of the armed forces since this Administration came to power in 2010. There are many ways in which the figures and numbers can be played around with, but the broad, overall figures suggest that, on 1 April 2010, the full-time trained and untrained total strength of the UK armed forces was 197,820, and that by 1 April 2017, that total stood at 157,247, which is a drop of 21%. The number of full-time trained and untrained personnel serving in the Royal Navy was 39,310 in 2010 and 33,230 in 2017, which represents a drop of 16%. The figures for the Army and the Royal Air Force are equally depressing.
According to the most recent figures, which cover the past 12 months, the net outflow from all three services has been 2,740 personnel. If numbers across all three services are even to remain neutral, we need to attract some 15,000 new recruits every year just to stand still. That is a tall order and has to be achieved against a background of increasing cuts. Between 2010 and 2015, we had a real-terms cut of £8 billion, or 18% of the overall budget. Although this Administration are trying to reverse that trend, a lot of the damage has already been done and has been made worse by slow, delayed decision making, cloudy strategic thinking and poor value for our tax pound in some procurement projects. The very fact that we will hopefully get a statement today—according to The Times, another defence review will be pushed into the long grass for perhaps another six months—tells its own story about this Administration and the legacy they are grappling with. It is a legacy of their own making.
That does not have a positive impact on recruitment and retention at a time when skilled engineers and technicians can find that there is more money and a more stable family life in industry and commerce rather than in serving in the armed forces. A recent report from the pay review body highlighted that people were joining up not for a career, but to be trained to a high standard before moving on to industry. They may be “made in the Royal Navy”, but they are progressing their career and enjoying family life in civvy street.
The Minister for the Armed Forces (Mark Lancaster)
It was a very good-natured debate, but the Scottish National party can never resist. What assessment has the hon. Gentleman made of retention given that 45% of service personnel in Scotland will be paying a higher rate of tax than their equivalents in England?
Stewart Malcolm McDonald (Glasgow South) (SNP)
It is a pleasure to welcome you to one of our weekly defence debates, Ms Dorries. I see the usual faces around the Chamber. I sincerely congratulate the hon. Member for Aldershot (Leo Docherty) on securing the debate.
We have heard Members adumbrate the drop in the size of the armed forces. An axe is being taken to capability left, right and centre. The National Audit Office reports that mismanagement of the procurement budget has led to a black hole of up to £20 billion. The Government are failing in their obligations to people at home and to allies abroad. I say to the Minister that Scottish National party Members approach these near-weekly debates constructively—I see lots of Conservative heads nodding in agreement with what we say—but we make no apology whatsoever for providing robust opposition to what we see as a folly.
Let us look at the numbers. In their manifesto, the Conservatives committed to an Army of 82,000. In Scotland, on 15 April 2014, the then Defence Secretary, who is now Chancellor, promised that
“we will actually be increasing the size of our defence presence in Scotland…from a Regular force of some 11,000 personnel today, to 12,500 by 2020.”
Let us fast-forward to 1 October 2017, when the Regular force in Scotland stood at 9,970. The Government fail on their own promises, and we make no apology for pointing that out. Of course, that comes on the back of a 20% cut to the MOD footprint in Scotland, which is another area in which we were told there would be investment.
Stewart Malcolm McDonald
I am not going to take an intervention from the Minister because he will have the chance to sum up. I want to address something he said earlier about terms and conditions affecting recruitment and retention. Let us look at where the evidence lies, starting with armed forces pay. We know that pay is an issue for members of the armed forces because the evidence tells us that. The Armed Forces Pay Review Body noted:
“In general, we heard about the lack of trust in the employer to maintain the offer in future, and an increasing feeling that people were not joining the services for a career, but to obtain training and skills before moving on to alternative (and possibly better paid) employment elsewhere.”
That is compounded by the public sector pay freeze, which, when inflation is taken into account, is a cut. Army privates who, on a salary of £21,000, are among the lowest-paid members of the armed forces, have had a cut of £400 per year. The Minister should look at the evidence in front of him—this is well documented and well researched—rather than simply pluck evidence out of thin air.
Stewart Malcolm McDonald
No, I am going to finish my point. The Minister’s comments on tax were not based on any research or evidence. They were not based on anything beyond what he seems to think the issue might be. He is willing to ignore all the evidence, including the evidence I have just cited. That is before we even get to the appalling state of military housing, the risible pension increases that the Government have offered to members of the armed forces and their families, and the dreadful roll-out of the armed forces covenant in some parts of the country.
SNP Members make no apology for the fact that those who earn tens and tens of thousands of pounds—way beyond the average salary—may pay a bit more tax. Frontline squaddies in Scotland, who make up the vast majority of those serving in Scotland, will pay less tax than their counterparts in the rest of the United Kingdom. I am happy with my Government’s policy of putting more money into the pockets of people in the armed forces, while the Minister’s Government continue to rob them day in, day out.
Stewart Malcolm McDonald
The Minister will have 10 minutes to sum up, so I am not going to take an intervention from him.
Let me end with this. I am dismayed that we will not have a statement today on the splitting up of the security capability review, about which there has been one of the most unedifying public spats I have ever seen in politics. This country seriously needs to look at how it finances and budgets for defence. It has to look at countries such as Denmark, which budgets on a five-year basis so that its Defence Ministers are not continuously chasing their tails. I think there is a political consensus. I make no apology for being robust in opposition, but I believe there is much on which we can work together.
The Minister for the Armed Forces (Mark Lancaster)
It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Dorries, and I declare an interest as a serving member of the Army Reserve. I confirm that I have no intention of resigning from the Army Reserve, as that would not help numbers at all.
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Aldershot (Leo Docherty) on securing this important and timely debate. It follows a number of other debates on similar themes in recent months in Westminster Hall, the main Chamber, and another place. The Government welcome every opportunity to emphasise their strong commitment to the armed forces and the defence of our country, and I am pleased to do that again today.
I also thank my hon. Friend for his insightful observations. As a former officer in the British Army with many years of distinguished service, including in operations in Iraq and Afghanistan, he has brought a wealth of knowledge and personal experience to the Chamber this morning. Other right hon. and hon. Members have also made contributions, and it is a privilege to respond to a debate of such quality. We have heard from my right hon. Friend the Member for Mid Sussex (Sir Nicholas Soames), and the hon. Members for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport (Luke Pollard), for Glasgow North West (Carol Monaghan), for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross (Jamie Stone), for Barnsley Central (Dan Jarvis)—I was particularly impressed by that speech and will return to it—for Dunfermline and West Fife (Douglas Chapman) and for West Dunbartonshire (Martin Docherty-Hughes).
I also enjoyed the speech by the hon. Member for Glasgow South (Stewart Malcolm McDonald), but may I gently say that, in my limited experience after 12 years in this House, this is supposed to be a debate? I was simply going to make a helpful comment, which I will return to, and the House tends to appreciate it if we can have a debate, rather than Members simply standing up and having a bit of a rant. I admire his passion for the subject, but Members get a bit more respect in this place when they are prepared to have a debate. I am gently chiding him.
This debate has been about the size and strength of our armed forces, so in a major sense it is about our people. I therefore pay tribute to the many tens of thousands of servicemen and women whose selfless service keeps our country and people safe. We must do everything we can to persuade our young people that the armed forces remain a great place to work with many development opportunities, both professional and personal. We accept, however, that recruitment remains a challenge—that point was raised by my right hon. Friend the Member for Mid Sussex.
Record youth employment and a diminishing number of 16 to 24-year-olds entering the workforce over the next few years means that there will always be strong competition for new people. We are responding with a range of short and long-term initiatives to ensure that the offer of a career in the armed forces remains competitive. The services are recruiting though active and targeted campaigns, and increasing engagement and activity in communities where recruitment has been low. We are also working on recruiting and retaining specialist skills. There are some encouraging signs. The number of applications to join the Navy and the Army has increased compared with the same point last year, and outflow from the regular armed forces in the past 12 months has reduced. The reserves are a success and continue to increase in number.
British society is changing, and young infantry soldiers who come from our traditional recruiting grounds in the north-east and north-west now represent a much smaller proportion of our society. That is why we have set ourselves challenging targets to recruit from the black, Asian and minority ethnic community, and to get a better gender balance in the armed forces. There are signs that we are beginning to make progress in those areas, but it is difficult, not least because we must ensure that the right role models in our armed forces can inspire other people to join.
Being a bottom-fed organisation, it is sometimes difficult to get those role models in the right place at the right rank. Hopefully, the Armed Forces (Flexible Working) Bill, which is proceeding through the House, will give us greater latitude in how we bring people into the armed forces, and potentially allow people to take career breaks, or—perhaps at an important point of their career—to work part-time or job share. No one suggests that that will be a silver bullet that will solve the problems, but hopefully it will make serving in the armed forces a little more compatible with the challenging pattern of modern life. I am pleased that in general there has been support for the Bill.
Wayne David
On recruitment, does the Minister accept that the approach of Capita leaves a lot to be desired? Will the MOD look carefully and critically at how it is fulfilling its contract?
Mark Lancaster
The hon. Gentleman makes a perfectly reasonable point. There have clearly been challenges, and to suggest otherwise would be entirely wrong. I am particularly interested in recruitment, and I think that this package of measures will be the right thing. I firmly take on board what was said by my right hon. Friend the Member for Mid Sussex, and we should try to move toward a blend of measures. I would not want to tie up enormous numbers of members of the armed forces solely in recruiting, but there is an important place for young role models who can inspire young people to join. Many of the back-room functions of the process can be done through Capita and others. We need a balance, and I am not sure that we have quite got that right at the moment.
Let me return to the theme of size and strength. It seems to be a day for Communist quotes, because I think it was Stalin who said:
“Quantity has a quality all of its own”,
which is a reasonable point. The worth of an armed force is ultimately determined by what it can do: the military power it can bring to bear, the readiness with which it can respond, and the effects it can achieve in the different circumstances in which it may be asked to achieve them.
The hon. Member for Barnsley Central will expect me to say that new technology and new capabilities tend to reduce the service requirement for manpower overall, but I do not for one second say that that justifies a continued reduction in the size of the armed forces. It does not, but there is a balance to be found between embracing those new technologies and maintaining that Stalinist thought about quantity having a quality of its own.
Although fully trained, regular service personnel will continue to make up the majority of the military workforce, particular requirements can be met equally well by reserve forces, including the sponsored reserve. Our aim must be to make the best use of all the talent and ability that the country has to offer, including from those who can bring to the armed forces valuable skills acquired in civilian life. I have already mentioned the more flexible approach to military workforce planning—what we called the “total armed force”—which we are looking at along with the service chiefs. I hope to update the House on exactly what that means and how we intend to move this forward. It is an attempt to embrace all the talent we can find.
We often talk about the number in the armed forces as if, magically, the whole force could be deployed in the field tomorrow. It cannot: no military can deploy its entire force in the field in one day. The true strength of an armed force is a combination of its total manpower—be that regular, reserve, or regular reserve—and the readiness with which it can be deployed.
Historically, we have deployed divisions; we should be fiercely proud of that, as few countries can deploy a division—the first size of armed force that has the full orchestra, so to speak, of capabilities to be deployed—but a division cannot be deployed tomorrow. It takes time; there is a readiness cycle for its deployment in the field. However, I am confident about answering the point raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Aldershot about our having a deployable division at readiness. We hold different forces at different periods of readiness, on a graduated scale. It would be wrong to go into detail about exactly what is held at what level of readiness, what is quickly deployable and what larger forces can be deployed over a period.
We often talk about threat. In my basic military training, threat had two components: capability and intent. A true threat exists when someone has capability and intends to use it. To go back to the speech of the hon. Member for Barnsley Central, there is an argument that the biggest threat we face now, based on capability and intent, is probably in cyberspace. There are threats to the nation every day there. However, that is not to dismiss other threats such as the Russian threat, clearly articulated this week by the Chief of the General Staff. In that case, there is definitely capability, but at the moment probably no intent to use it. However, I am very mindful that capabilities can take a long time to build up, while intents can change relatively quickly. We need to be mindful of and careful about that.
The national security capability review was touched on, and Members are no doubt aware that the National Security Council sat yesterday and that the NSCR was on the agenda. It was agreed that an NSCR report would be published in late spring 2018. More importantly for the purposes of this debate, the result of the NSC meeting was that a further separate programme of work to modernise defence will now happen. That will be called the modernising defence programme.
The Defence Secretary will make a statement. It will not be today; there is a negotiation by the usual channels. I assure right hon. and hon. Members that they should not read anything into that. The right date is being sought to maximise attendance. Let us be honest: probably the last thing we want is a statement when most people have plans to go home or be elsewhere. The statement will happen soon, on a day—Members can guess which day—of maximum attendance in the House, for maximum scrutiny of the Defence Secretary. I offer my apologies that it is not today, but ask Members please not to read anything into that.
Wayne David
I thank the Minister; but can we have an assurance that the statement will not be made in the evening?
Mark Lancaster
That was one of the issues, to be fair. There is a genuine feeling that on a matter of such importance the statement should be made at the right time on the right day, when there will be maximum opportunity for hon. Members to quiz the Secretary of State; but nothing should be read into the timing. The hon. Gentleman has alluded to one of the potential problems, and that is the nature of business today.
Mark Lancaster
Should I give way? Well goodness me, I am a generous soul. I hope that will be a lesson to the hon. Gentleman.
Stewart Malcolm McDonald
The regular faces will know it is not my normal MO not to allow an intervention. I was perhaps unnecessarily wound up at the time. As to the splitting, with defence coming later, will that part of the review still be tasked with being fiscally neutral?
Mark Lancaster
It is not for me to offer a lesson in the development of grand strategy, but in my training it was always all about ends, ways and means. We are attempting to establish the ends: what are we seeking to do? Clearly we seek to counter the threats that the UK faces. As to means, effectively people always focus on the capabilities that we have. That has been one of the challenges that we have faced in the wider debate, where individual capabilities have been plucked out that hon. Members feel must be saved at all costs, without their necessarily looking at the wider context of how the means and capabilities fit together. Equally, part of the capability is the finance—the ability to buy it. Means therefore include both physical capability and money. Ways are how we use those means. The piece of work in question will grow on the NSCR, and as it continues, clearly, if factors emerge and investment in certain capabilities is needed, that will be a negotiation with the Treasury.
Wayne David
Does not what the Minister said imply that his answer is yes, it will be fiscally neutral?
Mark Lancaster
That is not what I am saying at all. To be fair to my boss, the Secretary of State, he has made a strong case for greater investment in defence; and that negotiation will continue. However, before I get into lots of trouble by pre-empting what he will say in the statement shortly, I ask right hon. and hon. Members to indulge me with their patience. They will have the opportunity to ask all those questions shortly, during the statement.
Sir Nicholas Soames
Will the Minister deal with the point made by the hon. Member for Barnsley Central, which is key to the point that the Minister correctly made about divisional size and operation, and the bringing together of the whole military orchestra in one place, which is that quantity has to matter?
Mark Lancaster
Certainly, a division, by definition, because of the orchestra of capabilities that it brings to the battlefield, and its ability to fight at various geographical locations, must be of a certain size. To correct a comment that was made earlier, the Conservative manifesto commitment was to maintain armed forces at their current size, and be able to field a division. That is our commitment, to which we are working.
On the question of spending, the Government remain determined to ensure that our armed forces have the people, equipment and training to defend the United Kingdom at home and overseas against the growing and diversifying threat to our security. That means that our armed forces will continue to be world-leading, with the ability to project power globally in a way that few other nations can match. It also means that we will deepen our relationships with allied powers and work to strengthen alliances such as NATO. My hon. Friend the Member for Aldershot mentioned concerns about the ability to train. He is quite right: Zapad 2017 was the major Russian exercise in Russia’s western area. In 2017 we had several NATO exercises, because working with our allies is crucial. We had Joint Warrior, which was a joint expeditionary force exercise, Noble Jump 2, which was a very high readiness joint taskforce exercise, and Swift Response. Looking forward to this year, there will be several major international exercises. We will have Saif Sareea 3, which will be the biggest UK-Omani exercise to be held for nearly 15 years; and Trident Juncture, which is the NATO exercise held every three years. I take my hon. Friend’s point that it is crucial that, to counter the threat, we work continually with our NATO allies, and exercise accordingly. Collective training is important.
Another certainty is that we are increasing spending on defence and will continue to do so. With a defence budget of some £36 billion this year, the UK is undoubtedly a major defence power. The hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife talked about the Danish defence budget; but actually it will not get to 2%. Its defence budget will be 1.3% of GDP by 2023, which is up from 1.2%. That is a welcome rise, but it still does not reach the 2% target.
I am proud that the Government have committed to increasing the defence budget further, by at least 0.5% above inflation every year of this Parliament. I am mindful that I should allow my hon. Friend the Member for Aldershot a minute to sum up, so I shall leave my remarks there, but I shall write to hon. Members on any questions I have not answered.
Devonport Collection
Lord Lancaster of Kimbolton Excerpts(6 years, 11 months ago)
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The Minister for the Armed Forces (Mark Lancaster)
My right hon. Friend Earl Howe has made the following Written Ministerial Statement.
I have today laid before Parliament a Ministry of Defence Departmental Minute describing a gifting package which the Department intend to make to the National Museum of the Royal Navy.
Devonport Dockyard had a museum known as the Adelaide Gallery in the first half of the 1800s comprising a number of artefacts including figureheads and items such as flags from ships that served at Trafalgar. Sadly a fire in 1840 destroyed the majority of the collection. However, with the help of volunteers the museum was opened, within the Naval Base estate, in the disused Old Admiralty Fire Station in April 1969. Since opening, the “Devonport collection” has been enhanced by a group of willing volunteers who have accumulated artefacts of both local and national significance.
The current collection is made up of over 100,000 artefacts spanning the period 1588 to the present day. The collection includes naval stores, uniforms, medals, badges, personal kit and also model ships. It also includes silver, china and kitchenware, weights and measures as well as larger items such as figureheads. The total cost of the proposed gift is estimated at approximately £650,000.
The expansion of the collection is such that artefacts are now displayed in eight galleries across three buildings and is managed by a group of over 30 dedicated volunteers and uniformed staff. Currently, members of the public can only visit the collection by appointment.
Given the changes to the Naval Base site and the wider area under the Plymouth and south-west peninsula city deal and the complexities associated with supporting such an extensive collection of historical material, I propose the gifting of the Devonport collection to the National Museum of the Royal Navy in order that it can be suitably conserved and more widely displayed in Plymouth for current and future generations allowing greater access to the public.
The Departmental Minute, which I have today laid before Parliament, describes a gifting package to the National Museum of the Royal Navy that will comprise a number of historical items which need the continued support of the professional services that the Museum can provide.
Gifting is expected to be undertaken as soon as possible after the completion of the Departmental Minute process.
[HCWS417]
Oral Answers to Questions
Lord Lancaster of Kimbolton Excerpts(6 years, 11 months ago)
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The Minister for the Armed Forces (Mark Lancaster)
The Government are committed to increasing our maritime power to project our influence across the world and promote national prosperity. Growing for the first time in a generation, we will spend £63 billion on new ships and submarines over the next decade. We are also committed to increasing the number of personnel in the Royal Navy.
Kevin Foster
As the Minister will know, the strongest arm of the Royal Navy is the Royal Marines. Will he update the House on the work that is ongoing to transform the Royal Marines home base in south Devon into a world-leading facility and how it will enhance our national amphibious capability plans to ensure that we continue to meet our NATO and national priorities?
Mark Lancaster
In my previous role, I was responsible for the better defence estate strategy. I can confirm that it remains the intention to dispose of the Royal Citadel and Stonehouse in 2024 and Chivenor in 2027, and to provide units for the Royal Marines in either Plymouth or Torpoint. I cannot confirm exactly what form that will take at this stage, as further work is required, but I will update the House in due course.
Luke Pollard (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) (Lab/Co-op)
The lack of clarity and the leaks and confusion surrounding the national security review are really hitting morale, and morale affects capability in the Royal Navy. Given the uncertainty over Plymouth’s HMS Albion and HMS Bulwark and, now, the leaked proposal to merge the Royal Marines with the Parachute Regiment, will the Minister clear up the confusion and rule out those Navy cuts and the merger?
Mark Lancaster
I am sorry to have to disappoint the hon. Gentleman, but I can only repeat what has already been said: the Government take the security of our nation incredibly seriously. I think it is far more important to ensure that the review is robust, comprehensive and detailed than to rush to make announcements simply to appease the hon. Gentleman.
Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)
May we take a moment to acknowledge the courageous service of Surgeon-Captain Rick Jolly, whose death has just been announced? He was the only person to be awarded a gallantry medal by both sides in the Falklands war.
Will the Minister please take back to those conducting the review the united opinion on both sides of the House that any loss of frigates and amphibious vessels before their due out-of-service dates would be totally unacceptable?
Mark Lancaster
I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for highlighting the very sad passing of Commander Rick Jolly. He was indeed an absolute legend, and the service that he provided in the Falklands is worth reading about. It is unique to have been given awards for gallantry by both the United Kingdom and the Argentine forces. I also note my right hon. Friend’s other point.
Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)
Does not the passage of the Russian frigate Admiral Gorshkov through the English channel over Christmas prove that the Russians are intent on constantly observing our capability on the high seas, and is it not vital for us to maintain that capability at as high a level as possible?
Mark Lancaster
Absolutely. The Russian activity in the north Atlantic is as high as it has been since the end of the cold war, which is why we constantly assess it and respond appropriately. I was delighted that, as ever, HMS St Albans accompanied that Russian vessel during its passage through the channel.
Richard Drax (South Dorset) (Con)
Thank you very much, Mr Speaker.
May I reiterate what Members on both sides of the House have said so far, and add my concerns to those that have already been expressed about the future of the Royal Marines and the Royal Navy? I believe that any cutting of the Royal Marines or any further part of our amphibious fleet—HMS Ocean having already gone to the Brazilians—is absolutely out of order and totally unacceptable.
Mark Lancaster
My hon. Friend is a champion of the armed forces, and I am of course aware of his own service. I can only repeat what has already been said, but I entirely recognise the contribution made by both the Royal Marines and the Royal Navy. I was deeply honoured to be able to award green berets to our Royal Marines back in 2016, having accompanied them for a short run across the moor. I am only too well aware of what they are capable of, and I note my hon. Friend’s concerns.
Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)
What assessments have been undertaken of naval capability in response to the inevitable arms race in weapons of mass destruction which would follow the implementation of the United States’ nuclear posture review?
Mark Lancaster
I am sorry, but I did not catch the question. If I may, I will review it and write to the hon. Gentleman.
Mr Speaker
I think it would be fair to say that it was tangential to the subject of the strength of the Royal Navy.
Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab)
We have heard from the Government ad nauseam that the Royal Navy is growing when that is demonstrably untrue. There continues to be a sharp divide between rhetoric and reality. It is utterly unacceptable that the House should hear about significant potential cuts from the newspapers, as we did yet again this weekend. Can the Minister refute those reports, and confirm that we will not see a repetition of the 2010 scale of cuts in our armed forces?
Mark Lancaster
It is deeply disappointing that the hon. Lady once again comes to the Dispatch Box almost trying to talk down our Royal Navy. As is clear from the opening comments, we are absolutely committed to some £63 billion-worth of investment in our Royal Navy. Only shortly before Christmas we saw the Queen Elizabeth arriving in Portsmouth, after £120 million worth of investment in Portsmouth. We have now laid the first contracts for the first three Type 26s, and we are looking at Type 31s, and there are also nine new P-8 aircraft. The investment in our Royal Navy is significant, so for the hon. Lady to come to the Dispatch Box and simply try to talk it down is deeply disappointing.
Nia Griffith
Once again we do not seem to have very clear answers on that front. We also know that a lack of personnel is a driving factor for decisions in the Royal Navy. Capita is failing miserably on recruitment targets, failing to deliver savings, and is still bungling its IT systems, so what specific steps will the Minister be taking to get to grips with this situation?
Mark Lancaster
We seem to be switching seamlessly from the Navy to the Army. [Interruption.] If it is in order, that is fine, but there is continuing work on recruitment in the Army. I am pleased to say that compared with this period last year, applications are up about 20%. There have been some minor glitches in the new computer system, but they are being ironed out and I am confident that we will see recruitment into the Army increasing.
Hugh Gaffney (Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill) (Lab)
Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con)
The Minister for the Armed Forces (Mark Lancaster)
I am sure that the whole House will join me in paying tribute to the thousands who worked in munitions factories during both world wars. They produced vital equipment that helped us to final victory. For practical reasons, it is not possible to pursue individual awards, but the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy would be happy to work with colleagues across the House to look at further ways of recognising the collective effort of former munitions workers.
Henry Smith
My constituent Sue Wickstead wrote to me about her aunt, who worked in a munitions factory during the second world war, and I urge my hon. Friend to work with BEIS to ensure that munitions workers are properly commemorated for their bravery on behalf of our country’s freedom.
Mark Lancaster
I am delighted to say that we are already in negotiations with the Department and will happily pursue that work.
Ruth Smeeth (Stoke-on-Trent North) (Lab)
Last year, I had the privilege and pleasure of meeting Ethel Parker, a 99-year-old former munitions worker from Swynnerton. She is incredibly proud of her service and will be 100 in May—I am sure she will forgive me for mentioning her age. For her and many others, time may well be running out, and they would very much want to be at the opening of a memorial, which would ideally not be in London so that they could visit it. Can we progress this issue as a matter of urgency, just as we have with other memorials, so that those involved can actually see the testament to their work to deliver victory in world war one and world war two?
Mark Lancaster
Once again, I can only pay tribute to those constituents who played such an important part in the second world war—those who took part in world war one are no longer around—and I absolutely recognise the urgency. We had a similar issue when it came to the French Légion d’Honneur, so mechanisms are in place, but I will pursue this as a matter of urgency.
Rosie Duffield (Canterbury) (Lab)
John Grogan (Keighley) (Lab)
The Minister for the Armed Forces (Mark Lancaster)
A total of 145 pilots formally applied to leave the Royal Air Force in the last three financial years.
John Grogan
Does the Minister agree that the RAF needs to do everything possible to retain its experienced pilots, particularly in the light of competition from the civil sector? Will he look at the case of 100 experienced pilots who have been disadvantaged in relation to their peers by the latest change to pay and conditions?
Mark Lancaster
I absolutely recognise that we need to retain our experienced pilots, and of course a number of financial retention schemes are in place to do that. Equally, pilots have the choice as to whether or not they remain flying, by going into a specialist flying scheme, or stop flying, by going into the general scheme. Since the announcement that we would be buying nine P-8s, I have been deeply encouraged by the number of commercial pilots who have left the RAF and now want to re-join.
Douglas Ross (Moray) (Con)
RAF pilots from Lossiemouth and other military personnel in my constituency have contacted me about the Scottish National party’s “nat tax”, which makes Scotland the highest taxed part of the United Kingdom and potentially a less desirable posting. Does the Minister agree that the SNP should drop these dangerous plans? If it will not, what support could the Government give RAF personnel in Scotland, who will face paying more tax than their counterparts south of the border?
Mr Speaker
Don’t bang on about SNP policy—we don’t need to do that. The esteemed Minister should focus on the latter part of the question, which was orderly and did relate to the policy of the Government, for which he is responsible.
Mark Lancaster
I would not dream of banging on about the SNP, but it is of course for it to justify to our armed forces personnel its higher rate of income tax. I have yet to be contacted by any RAF pilots wishing to leave, and I will continue to do my best to ensure that they will want to stay in the RAF.
Mr Paul Sweeney (Glasgow North East) (Lab/Co-op)
Bill Wiggin (North Herefordshire) (Con)
The Minister for the Armed Forces (Mark Lancaster)
My hon. Friend is a champion for the cadets. With more than 800 cadets and 125 adult volunteers in 20 detachments, the Hereford and Worcester Army Cadet Force demonstrates how the cadet experience provides opportunities for young people to develop self-discipline and resilience. I started my military career in the cadets, I am a great fan of the cadets, and we certainly continue to support the cadet expansion programme.
Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab)
Gordon Henderson (Sittingbourne and Sheppey) (Con)
Mark Lancaster
As I mentioned earlier in answer to the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant), the level of naval activity that we see from Russia is at its highest since the cold war, but I am sure that the House will appreciate that I cannot go into too much detail. I can assure the House that our independent nuclear deterrent is continuously on patrol, as it has been every day now for nearly 50 years.
Mr Adrian Bailey (West Bromwich West) (Lab/Co-op)
A constituent of mine and a veteran of two tours of Afghanistan, former Rifleman Lee Bagley, lost a leg after a non-theatre related injury incurred in February 2010. His subsequent complaint about delays to his treatment was dismissed in part because he was out of time. Will the Minister, under proposals to improve the armed forces covenant, ensure that, in any such circumstances again, the victim will have available a full explanation of what they may expect from treatment, and their rights?
Mark Lancaster
Of course, the hon. Gentleman’s constituent was the subject of an Adjournment debate that the hon. Gentleman and I discussed some 18 months ago. The advice at the time was that he should put in a complaint to the service complaints ombudsman. I am not sure whether that has been done. However, if I may, I will take this opportunity to review the case and come back to the hon. Gentleman.
Stephen Hammond (Wimbledon) (Con)
Mark Lancaster
This is a very delicate issue. However, I can absolutely reassure my hon. Friend that we do have the capability to protect these assets. It would probably be inappropriate to say any more in this House.
Martin Docherty-Hughes (West Dunbartonshire) (SNP)
As the Secretary of State assesses the effects of the delays to the 2018-19 pay negotiations on retention to the armed forces, do they not agree that the Ministry of Defence is actually giving squaddies a real-terms wage cut, while the Scottish Government are in fact putting money in their pockets through the new progressive tax system?
Mrs Madeleine Moon (Bridgend) (Lab)
In 2013, the regulatory reserve scheme was introduced. Since then, we have paid out more than £29 million and benefited by only 480 deployable reservists. Would it not have been better to use that money to improve the conditions, the pay and the benefits of those in our regular forces and to retain them?
Mark Lancaster
I am not quite sure whether I agree with the hon. Lady’s figures, but I will go away and look at them, because I do not have them to hand. I absolutely defend what we have done quite successfully in increasing the size of the reserve. Compared with where we were three or four years ago, we now have a usable reserve, which is a very positive thing.
James Heappey (Wells) (Con)
Will the Secretary of State join me in congratulating the Army on its new recruitment campaign, which shows the changing face and culture of our armed forces? Does he share my confidence that the corporals and colour sergeants who await those recruits in our training establishments, and the esprit de corps in our regiments that awaits thereafter, will ensure that our Army is no less professional, no less robust and no less lethal?