Oral Answers to Questions

Jeremy Browne Excerpts

Thursday 14th February 2013 Commons Chamber

[The Minister of State, Home Department (Mr Jeremy Browne)]

There have been a number of recent discussions involving ministerial colleagues in the Department for Education on issues relating to ending violence against women and girls. These include a round-table with police and crime commissioners and the Local Government Association on local commissioning, and a round-table last month on ending female genital mutilation.

[Caroline Lucas]

The Minister for Women and Equalities has already welcomed the fact that 1 billion women are rising today, but does the hon. Gentleman recognise that the campaign wants the Government to do a lot more? Will he ensure that he works with the Education Secretary to make the prevention of violence against women and girls an integral part of education policy that is delivered in every school as part of the statutory curriculum, and will Ministers vote yes in today’s important debate?

[Mr Browne]

We welcome the campaign and the opportunity for the House to debate these issues at greater length later today. Schools are, of course, free to teach about issues such as sexual consent within personal, social and health education or in other lessons, and children can benefit enormously from high-quality education that helps them to make safe and informed decisions and choices. The DFE has conducted a review of PSHE and will publish its outcomes later this year.

[Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con)]

Will the Minister clarify whether there is a cross-departmental, multi-agency strategy for tackling the horrific practice of honour violence? How effective is this strategy?

[Mr Browne]

My hon. Friend is quite right to draw attention to this abhorrent crime. He uses the commonly received expression, but I urge everybody to stop using it, as there is nothing honourable at all about this form of criminal activity. It is part of the overall approach that the Government are taking to try to combat violence against women and girls. He will know that the Government have ring-fenced nearly £40 million of stable funding up to 2015 for a range of tasks of this type, including for the area he has raised.

[Yvette Cooper (Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford) (Lab)]

It is “One Billion Rising” today, and the Minister’s response to the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) was simply not good enough. We have had too many warm words and too much waffle from Ministers on this subject. It is no good saying that schools are free to teach about sexual consent. All schools should be teaching our children and young people not to harm each other and to have respect for themselves. They should be teaching them that sexual violence is not normal. The Department for Education has blocked for three years any movement on legislation to introduce compulsory sex and relationship education with zero tolerance of violence in schools. It has been looking at it for three years and has done nothing. It must act. Will the Minister now support that action and our debate today on introducing compulsory sex and relationship education in schools to protect our children?

[Mr Browne]

I hear my Back Benchers saying, “What did you do?” The idea that this social problem began in May 2010 injects an unnecessarily partisan tone into an area that should be beyond party politics. Of course these matters are taught in schools right across the country. I am pleased that the campaign to reduce teenage relationship abuse, which has been effective and welcomed by people of all political persuasions, is being relaunched today. It will focus on what constitutes controlling and coercive behaviour. I hope it will have a compelling impact on boys in particular, but on teenagers of both sexes when they see that campaign.

[Mr Adrian Sanders (Torbay) (LD)]

I am sure the Minister recognises the importance of cross-border co-operation in tackling organised crime such as the trafficking of women and girls. Will he do everything in his power to ensure that Britain continues to co-operate with our European partners on this important issue?

[Mr Browne]

My hon. Friend makes an important point about the need for international co-operation to combat all forms of crime, including the particular form of crime he brings to our attention. The Government are, of course, committed to working with other Governments all around the world to reduce serious and organised crime and its impact on the United Kingdom. That very much applies to other European countries as well.

[Mr Virendra Sharma (Ealing, Southall) (Lab)]

5. What steps she is taking to improve the position of black, Asian and minority ethnic communities in the workplace.

Police

Jeremy Browne Excerpts

Wednesday 13th February 2013 Commons Chamber

[The Minister of State, Home Department (Mr Jeremy Browne)]

I beg to move,

That the Police Grant Report (England and Wales) for 2013-14 (HC 876), which was laid before this House on 4 February, be approved.

I am very grateful to those hon. Members who have joined me in the Chamber to take part in this debate on the 2013-14 police funding settlement. In addition to seeking their approval of the police grant report (England and Wales) 2013-14, I also want to focus on how we are reforming the police to make them more effective, more efficient and more responsive to local needs.

On 19 December, the Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice laid before the House a written ministerial statement and a provisional police grant report that set out the Government’s proposed allocations to police and crime commissioners in England and Wales. We have decided that force level allocations will remain as announced on 19 December.

Before I go into the details of that announcement, it is important to set this debate in context. When our coalition Government came to office in May 2010, Britain had the largest peacetime deficit in our history. For every £3 the Labour Government raised in tax, they spent £4. The gap was being plugged by the Treasury borrowing almost £500 million every single day. It was the economics of the madhouse. Labour has had two periods in office during my lifetime, and on both occasions it presided over a budgetary catastrophe.

[Chris Leslie (Nottingham East) (Lab/Co-op)]

I have in my hand a copy of the Liberal Democrat 2010 manifesto published in, I think, April 2010. I presume the hon. Gentleman knew what his party was saying at the time. The manifesto says that the Liberal Democrats would pay

“for 3,000 more police on the beat, affordable because we are cutting other spending”.

What happened in those few weeks before the hon. Gentleman became a Minister?

[Mr Browne]

I would be the first to acknowledge that we should have said in our manifesto, “Vote Liberal Democrat and crime will be at the lowest level in recorded history”, but we were insufficiently bold. We were too modest, actually, about the contribution that we would make to the well-being of our country.

The only two conclusions that can reasonably be drawn from Labour’s two catastrophic periods in office in the past 40 years are that we here in Britain have been particularly unlucky to have had especially inept Labour politicians, in which case it seems strange indeed to be enlisting the most culpable Cabinet Ministers from the previous regime to run the show for Labour today, or, more fundamentally, that socialism is completely incompatible with competent economic management. Either way, when we came into office in 2010 there was, in the immortal and shameless words of the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill (Mr Byrne), “no money left.”

[Emma Reynolds (Wolverhampton North East) (Lab)]

I suggest to the hon. Gentleman that we should not have a debate about Government competence, because we would be here all day. Perhaps I could bring him back to the police grant. West Midlands police force is going to suffer another £25 million cut, which is a huge amount to take out of its budget. We have lost more than 900 police officers since the general election. Will he agree to look at the implications for big police forces such as those in the west midlands, where there are high policing demands and needs, of the application of the floors and ceilings on their budgets?

[Mr Browne]

I am grateful for this early opportunity to tell the House what has happened to crime in the west midlands since this coalition was formed and my party came into government: it has fallen. As I have said in the House before, the two things that seem to make Labour MPs look most glum are finding out that their constituents are more likely to get a job or that they are less likely to be victims of crime. In the past two years, crime in the west midlands has fallen by 13%, which is an extraordinary achievement. If I represented a west midlands constituency, I would be pleased that my constituents were less likely to be victims of crime than they were in 2010. I find it extraordinary that Labour MPs do not seem to take that view.

[Jack Dromey (Birmingham, Erdington) (Lab)]

rose—

[Mr Browne]

I give way to the hon. Gentleman, who lives near me in Herne Hill in south London.

[Jack Dromey]

I bow to no one in my admiration for our excellent West Midlands police service under the leadership of our police and crime commissioner, Bob Jones, and our chief constable, Chris Sims. Can the hon. Gentleman even begin to explain the unfairness of an approach that has led to 814 police officers going in Birmingham but to an additional 257 police officers in Surrey?

[Mr Browne]

As I have already explained, crime has fallen by 13% in the west midlands. The purpose of the police is not to employ as many people as possible but to try to make the public as safe as possible and reduce the amount of crime, and that is what is happening. Since the crime survey in England and Wales began in 1981—I know it seems hard to believe, Mr Speaker, but I was at primary school then—crime has never been lower in England and Wales than it is today. That is an extraordinary achievement.

[Jack Dromey]

rose—

[Mr Browne]

I will not give way. Why does the hon. Gentleman not reflect on that achievement? Why do Labour Members all look so sour and unhappy about the fact that their constituents are less likely to be victims of crime under this Government than they were under the previous Labour Government?

[Jack Dromey]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mr Browne]

I will in a bit, but the hon. Gentleman has had a go already.

I was talking about the budgetary context and the hon. Gentleman’s west midlands colleague, the glibly shameless right hon. Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill, who said that there was “no money left.” I note that he did not say, “There’s just a little bit of money left” or “There’s a little bit of money; I wish there were a bit more but there isn’t.” There was, in his words, “no money left.” That was the reality of our inheritance, and our coalition Government, working in the national interest, is turning the oil tanker around. The deficit has been cut by a quarter over two years, and about 1 million private sector jobs have been created.

However, tidying up Labour’s mess is a difficult and painstaking process that cannot be achieved overnight. In order to deal with the deficit, tough decisions have to be made. I know that Labour Members, who have never made a tough decision in their lives, find that traumatic, but it has to be done. There is therefore less money for the Home Office and less money for the police. As a service that was spending, in total, in excess of £14 billion per year, the police can and must take their fair share of the reductions in funding. As set out in the policing Minister’s written ministerial statement, central Government funding to the police will be £8.7 billion in 2013-14, which is only 1.9% less than in 2012-13. It is important to remember that the police do not receive all their funding from central Government. In fact, the police receive about a quarter of their funding from the police precept component of council tax, which is of course determined locally.

We have sought to protect the police as far as possible. The autumn statement in December included further cuts of 1% to most departmental budgets. However, the Home Secretary decided to protect the police from these additional reductions in 2013-14. She also decided not to pass on reductions relating to the November 2011 announcement on pay restraint in 2013-14, which could have resulted in a further reduction of £66 million in police funding in 2013-14. All this means that in 2013-14 the police will receive the same amount of funding as was agreed in the October 2010 spending review.

Naturally, police and crime commissioners are keen to know what their funding allocations will be for 2014-15, and particularly whether the departmental reductions announced in the autumn statement and the impact of pay restraint will be passed on to the police in that year. We will announce our decision with regard to 2014-15 as soon as we are in a position to do so. The reduction in the police budget has coincided with a small reduction in the number of officers, but ultimately decisions on the size and composition of the work force are for individual chief officers and police and crime commissioners.

[Annette Brooke (Mid Dorset and North Poole) (LD)]

Dorset police authority has the lowest level of funding from formula grant per resident of any police force in England and Wales. Given the particular characteristics of Dorset, which is a mix of rural and urban with a night-time economy and many tourists, the police commissioner is very anxious to participate in future changes to the funding formula. What advice can my hon. Friend give me on securing greater involvement for Dorset?

[Mr Browne]

I heard Labour Members sniggering during my hon. Friend’s intervention. Dorset is a county where all the Members of Parliament are from the Government side of the House, but, interestingly, we are not showering money on one area of the country over another because of the political colour of its MPs and councils—something that Labour Members may wish to reflect on. We are keen that the funding allocations are fair, and I will speak about that in more detail later. It is worth also bringing to the House’s attention the fact that in the past year alone crime in Dorset has fallen by 10%. That is another significant achievement, and it means that people in Dorset are safer than they were when Labour was last in government.

[Jack Dromey]

Despite the valiant efforts of West Midlands police service, figures for last year demonstrate that 3,684 fewer crimes were solved. I will repeat my question, although it might be a vain attempt to get an answer from the hon. Gentleman as he is speaking from his pre-prepared script. How can he begin to justify 814 fewer police officers in Birmingham but 257 extra police officers in Surrey?

[Mr Browne]

Let me say two things. Fewer crimes are being solved because there are fewer crimes. I will say this again, because the hon. Gentleman obviously missed it the first time. Let me tell him how much progress has been made in the past year alone. I recognise that every crime has a victim and I want to see crime go even lower. I am genuinely pleased that crime is lower now than it was at the last general election, when his party got the second worst result in its history and did well to do as well as that. Crime in the west midlands has fallen in the past year not by 5%, 10%, 11% or even 12%, but by 13%. Surely we can agree, if we cannot agree on anything else, that our constituents being less likely to be victims of crime is a good thing. However partisan Labour MPs are, surely they do not want their constituents to be more likely to be victims of crime just so they can try to score more cheap points across the Chamber.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Mr Browne]

I want to make a bit of progress and will give way later. I have given way several times to Labour MPs, who all seem to want to make the same point, which is that they are upset that crime is falling in their—[Interruption.] If any Labour MP wants to intervene because crime has risen in their area since the general election, they can get up. Anyone? Go on.

[Chris Leslie]

rose—

[Mr Browne]

No, crime has not risen in the hon. Gentleman’s area. It is down.

[Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)]

rose—

[Mr Browne]

No, it has not risen in the hon. Gentleman’s area. It has not risen in either of those areas. While there has been much debate about the number of police officers—a point made by the hon. Member for Birmingham, Erdington (Jack Dromey)—surely the most salient fact is this: crime is falling. While total officer numbers fell by 2.9% between September 2011 and 2012, most recent statistics show a 7% reduction in police recorded crime in the same period and an even bigger reduction in the independent crime survey figures for crime in England and Wales.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Mr Browne]

I will give way right now to anybody who has seen an increase in crime. To be honest, I think there has been an increase in crime in Devon and Cornwall—I cannot see any Members from Devon and Cornwall here—but that is not true for anywhere else in the country. Every single Labour MP here today has reason to be grateful to the police and to this Government for overseeing the lowest period of crime since the survey began 32 years ago.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Mr Browne]

I will get to the details, because some Members are actually genuinely interested in police funding, rather than in trying to score party political points. I owe it to them to treat them seriously, so let me turn to the funding settlement details.

In the past 12 months we have heard from policing partners on a number of funding issues, including the police allocation formula, as raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Dorset and North Poole (Annette Brooke), the process of damping and the community safety fund. There is a widely held view that the police allocation formula should be subject to a full review before any changes are made to the current damping policy. We will commence a review later this year. In the meantime, the current damping arrangements will remain, but a review will be undertaken on whether we can improve the allocation of central police funding.

Linked to the issue of allocation is the precept—the police element of council tax. Of course, I recognise that there is considerable disparity between force areas in the proportion of overall funding that comes from council tax, but we have to ensure that funding allocations to the police are as equitable as they can be. This is why all forces have received an equal percentage of the reduction in core Government funding.

On community safety funding, in 2013-14 police and crime commissioners will receive funding from a new and un-ring fenced transitional community safety fund, which they can use to invest in tackling drugs and crime or in community safety activities. In 2013-14, that funding will total £90 million. PCCs will have discretion to invest funding from the CSF in their own locally determined community safety priorities, including in existing programmes. This fund provides PCCs with the full flexibility to invest in their own priorities. To ensure that PCCs are able to make an informed decision about how to use their CSF allocations, we will publish details on the Home Office website of the existing drugs, crime and community safety funding streams that are ending. From 2014-15, the CSF will be rolled into the police main grant to give PCCs even greater freedom and flexibility over how they use their resources.

In summary, we cannot afford to continue the borrowing-fuelled levels of spending under the previous Government. The fact that crime continues to fall shows that the quality of policing cannot, and should not, be measured purely in terms of the level of resources put into it.

[Mr Alan Campbell (Tynemouth) (Lab)]

In Northumbria, the police and crime commissioner and the chief constable are proposing to increase the precept on average by less than 5p per household to recruit 50 additional officers. Does the hon. Gentleman agree with that?

[Mr Browne]

That is their decision. That is what they were elected in Northumbria to decide. There seems to be a lot of good news in Northumbria. Let me see, the hon. Gentleman is one of the best parts of the whole country—no wonder he did not intervene earlier. In the two years since his party was chucked out of office with one of its lowest shares of the vote ever and our coalition came in, crime has fallen by 18% in Northumbria. People in Northumbria are safer now than they were before. They are less likely to be victims of crime, and I very much welcome that.

[Dame Joan Ruddock (Lewisham, Deptford) (Lab)]

The Minister seems to have had a memory lapse. Every year that Labour was in government, crime fell. We are all overjoyed that it continues to fall, but he must realise that it is the foundation that we laid, and that he now jeopardises, that is the point. In London, his Government are imposing 20% cuts on the Met. Her Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary said that anything more than 12% would impact on front-line services. Can he tell me that he is confident that progress will continue to be made?

[Mr Browne]

If the right hon. Lady is accusing me of being too party political, it is worth saying that crime started to fall when John Major was Prime Minister. What is notable is that Labour MPs, when they were in government, used to say that crime was falling because they were spending more money on the police. Now, however, because of their complete fiscal incontinence, we are having to spend marginally less money on the police. We have lower crime than when Labour was in office, and the lowest level of independently recorded crime in the survey since it began more than 30 years ago. Surely that is good news. Let us try to establish that point, and let us see whether the hon. Member for Denton and Reddish (Andrew Gwynne) agrees.

[Andrew Gwynne]

I am grateful to the Minister for giving way. I am also grateful for the fact that I think he acknowledges the point made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham, Deptford (Dame Joan Ruddock), which is that the crime rate has fallen consistently every year since 1995, including in every year under the previous Labour Government. That fall was not necessarily about police numbers. Does he not recognise that we started to see the biggest fundamental drop in crime under the previous Government when we shifted police resources into neighbourhood policing teams?

[Mr Browne]

I am delighted that we have made some progress. The hon. Gentleman says that reducing crime is not necessarily to do with police numbers. We agree with that. However, we have to spend the money that is allocated to the police as well as we possibly can. Let me introduce another brand new concept to Labour Members: value for money in the public sector and spending taxpayers’ money as if it were one’s own—try that. I know that that is an amazing, novel concept, but that is what we are trying to do.

[Jack Dromey]

rose—

[Mr Browne]

I have given way before, twice. When budgets are tight, it puts an even greater onus on Government to achieve greater efficiencies and value for money—an even greater onus. We recognise the importance of the police.

Although funding reductions are unavoidable, the Government have substantially reformed the police over the last few years, and that reform is working. We have fundamentally changed the accountability framework for policing, introducing direct democratic accountability. Police and crime commissioners were elected in November and are now actively consulting on their police and crime plans and budgets for 2013-14. Those plans will set the scale of their ambition for the future, but already they have begun to demonstrate that they are driving forward innovative and flexible use of their budgets and taking bold decisions.

We have already seen evidence of that bold leadership, with forces looking seriously at how they manage their estate, including the future of New Scotland Yard here in London. We have seen the determination of other PCCs to put more police officers on the street through raising the precept, in some cases; others are restructuring their budgets to secure the future of police community safety officers; and others are looking to push collaboration to new areas to secure value for money for their electorate. There is no one-size-fits-all approach, but innovative policy making is taking place to achieve greater community safety and value for money. In the knowledge that they will be held to account directly by the public, PCCs are seeking to take measures to maintain and improve the service to the public within what is, as I have already admitted, a very tight financial climate.

PCCs, their chief constables and the officers and staff they lead are now supported by the new College of Policing. The college will support the fight against crime by equipping the police with the skills and knowledge they need to provide the very best service to their communities. Headed by an outstanding chief constable, Alex Marshall, and with Professor Shirley Pearce as its chair, the college will work in the public interest, supporting the police in their critical mission to cut crime by driving professionalism and integrity in policing.

[Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab)]

As the Minister probably knows, the chief executive of the college gave evidence to the Home Affairs Committee yesterday. Will he help me with the budgets of the new landscape? As he knows, the Serious Organised Crime Agency and the National Policing Improvement Agency have been abolished and will now form part of the National Crime Agency. The total budget of SOCA and the NPIA was £865 million, but the NCA’s budget will be £400 million and the college’s budget will be £50 million. What has happened to the rest of the £865 million?

[Mr Browne]

The right hon. Gentleman makes a fair point, which we considered at length during the Committee stage of the Crime and Courts Bill. The crucial point is that only a small proportion of the NPIA’s budget is being transferred to the NCA. From memory—I do not have the paper to hand—I think the figure is £12 million or £13 million. The functions covered by the vast majority of the NPIA’s budget will not be transferred to the NCA. It is not accurate, therefore, to conflate SOCA’s budget and the NPIA’s budget and say that between them their budgets were bigger than the NCA’s budget, because quite a lot of the NPIA features will not be transferring to the NCA.

Few things could be more directly relevant to public confidence and the British model of policing by consent than the integrity of our police officers. Police officers are citizens in uniform and their fellow citizens must be able to have confidence that they exercise their powers without fear or favour. That is why my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary announced a range of measures to enhance police integrity in the House yesterday. Greater independent investigation of the most serious and sensitive complaints against the police will be made possible by rebalancing resource between the Independent Police Complaints Commission and force professional standards directorates. A publicly available list of struck-off officers will ensure that those who are dismissed for misconduct cannot re-enter the police by the back door. We will significantly strengthen vetting of all officers, particularly the most senior officers, and we will introduce national registers of pay and perks, gifts and hospitality, contact with the media and outside interests.

All that will be underpinned by a code of ethics for the police—a single set of ethical standards by which officers and staff will work. The college will own and develop this and PCCs and chief officers will ensure that it runs right through policing and the careers of police officers and police staff. Accountability, professionalism and integrity—these are the areas where our reforms are focused and on which we are making a substantial difference.

We also rely, however, on being able to continue to attract the very best people into policing. For the avoidance of doubt, outstanding people are already attracted to some of the most difficult and demanding jobs available in our police forces. We need to ensure that we continue to attract the people with the right skills and expertise to forge a force fit for the 21st century. That means opening up policing. We are consulting on three direct entry schemes that will open up the police to a wider pool of talent, so that forces will be able to bring in people with diverse backgrounds and new perspectives. Combined with the strong leaders already working in forces and the improved nurturing of internal talent through the College of Policing, we will have a police force that is even better equipped to fight crime.

[Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)]

There is huge talent in our armed forces, at non-commissioned officer, young officer and senior officer level. Some of these people will be leaving the armed forces, but at the moment it is extremely difficult for non-commissioned officers and junior officers to join the police—in fact, there seems to be a bar. Is there any possibility of encouraging more transfers from our military forces to our police forces?

[Mr Browne]

My hon. Friend makes a good point. I would imagine that many people with military backgrounds would be ideally suited to pursuing this career option. In my constituency the week before last, I was talking to a police officer who had previously served with 40 Commando Royal Marines, also based in my constituency, and he appeared to be doing an extremely good job on behalf of the people of Somerset.

We are unambiguous—as are the public whom the police serve—that fighting crime should be the clear focus of our police, and that is why we are working so hard to free up police time to achieve that focus. We have already removed much of the centrally imposed bureaucracy on police forces, such as top-down targets, performance management structures, excessive regulation and inspection, but police officers still spend too much time on unnecessary bureaucracy and not enough time on their core mission of fighting crime. We will deliver transformational change to free up front-line officers’ time and will be focusing on ensuring that police forces understand and implement existing best practice, introducing transformational change for front-line officers and speeding up the criminal justice process. By 2015, owing to all the measures I have described, the police will be recognisably more modern, offering a more accessible service to the public.

[Graham Jones (Hyndburn) (Lab)]

The Minister says that he will free up front-line officers’ time from back-office responsibility, but at the same time huge cuts are being made to back-office support services. How does he square those two things? Do they not run against each other? Has he not contradicted himself in that one sentence?

[Mr Browne]

Shall we try again? I attend lots of debates in the House. I attend debates about education, and Labour wants to spend more money. I attend debates about health, and Labour wants to spend more money. I attend debates about whether multi-millionaires should receive child benefit, and Labour wants to give more child benefit to multi-millionaires. So far as I can work out, there is no area where Labour does not want to spend more money, which would be great if it had left us a massive budget surplus, but as the hon. Gentleman might not have heard me say at the beginning of my speech, for every £3 Labour raised in tax, it was spending £4. It was borrowing about £20 million an hour by the time the electorate called time on it. It was completely unaffordable—the economics of the madhouse—and we are now having to cut our cloth to fit. Nevertheless, he will be pleased that there is no precise correlation between spending more money and having better service outcomes. In fact, crime has fallen in his area.

[Jack Dromey]

rose—

[Mr Browne]

I will not give way. As I said, I will give way to any Labour MP who has seen an increase in crime since the general election.

[Jack Dromey]

rose—

[Mr Browne]

The hon. Gentleman has not seen such an increase. It has fallen by 13%. It is down in all their forces.

Let us move on. I have reached the final part of my speech. In the first two years of this Government, recorded crime fell by 10% and public confidence in the police is rising. This clearly indicates that our police reforms are working. The crime survey for England and Wales also shows big falls, with figures now at their lowest level since records began in 1981. Our remorseless focus on the front line, on value for money and on serving the public provides our motivation for slashing back the red tape that has kept police officers behind desks instead of on the streets. By scrapping targets, cutting paperwork and returning discretion to officers, we have saved 4.5 million officer hours.

[Bridget Phillipson (Houghton and Sunderland South) (Lab)]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mr Browne]

I will not.

This Government inherited the largest peacetime deficit in Britain’s history. We are now making the necessary positive reforms. However, the Government can only do so much, and the necessary change will also have to come from the forces themselves. I commend those in the police who have risen to the challenge and shown leadership in transforming the way in which they deliver services and protection for the public. There is more to do, but I am confident that, with our ambitious reform programme alongside transformational change, we will build police forces that are modern, flexible and responsive, fighting crime while delivering value for money for the taxpayer and reducing crime, as this Government have done since we came to office in May 2010. I commend the motion to the House.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Jeremy Browne]

What I should have said is, “Vote for me in Taunton Deane and crime will fall by 11% in two years”, but I was too modest to do so. I said in my speech today that the budget for policing was falling by 1.9% for 2013-14, compared with 2012-13, and that the central grant would be £8.7 billion. My hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert) has asked a straightforward question: what would the central grant figure be if Labour were in government today?

[Mr Hanson]

We gave a clear indication—[Interruption.] The Minister can say what he likes, but when we were in government, we gave a clear figure of a 12% reduction. We are now two years away from a general election, and we will have to look at these matters again at that stage. I made it clear when I was sitting where the Minister is now sitting that there would be a 12% reduction. Having pledged to introduce 3,000 more police officers, he is now proposing a budget cut of 20% on behalf of the Tory-Liberal Democrat Government. That is the clear difference between us, and I suspect that my right hon. and hon. Friends will recognise that.

If we were talking only about police numbers, perhaps we could have an honest debate, but this Government also are making it harder to get CCTV, reducing the use of DNA evidence to catch criminals and cutting crime prevention budgets. They also spent £100 million of taxpayers’ money on the elections for police and crime commissioners, which attracted a 13% turnout. They are weakening counter-terror powers, with the result that people such as Ibrahim Magag can drive away in a taxi while under a terrorism prevention and investigation measure—[Interruption.] The Minister accuses me of being right wing. If it is right wing to want to ensure that my constituents are safe on the streets, I plead guilty. If it is right wing to want those who commit offences to be put into jail or on community sentences to prevent reoffending, I plead guilty.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Hanson]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for raising that issue. His police force in Lancashire lost 413 officers over that period. [Interruption.] The Minister keeps chuntering from a sedentary position, saying, “What’s the impact of that?” I have told him that I welcome the fall in crime, but the key question that he needs to answer is whether that fall is sustainable and whether it was the result of previous investment. I simply say to him that the trends for acquisitive crime, violent crime, detection rates, recording of crime and maintaining a visible presence are going in a different direction, and he knows it. I genuinely hope that crime continues to fall, but we will have to make that assessment. Our concern is that it will be more difficult with £1 billion taken out of the budget over three years than it would be otherwise.

[Mr Jeremy Browne]

Given everything the right hon. Gentleman says, I just want to check that he is now committing to taking £1 billion out of other areas of Government spending—say, schools or hospitals—to fund this area. Surely he is not just making a completely empty speech to get a few cheers from his Back Benchers, but has the figures to back up his argument. We are spending £8.7 billion in 2013-14. If he were in government, what would he be spending? Just a number.

[Mr Hanson]

The hon. Gentleman must be—as well as many other things—not listening to what I am saying. This is the third year of a three-year budget proposal. We proposed 12% cuts; he is proposing 20% cuts. Next year and the year after, we will have a further debate—when a Labour Government are returned in two years’ time, we will have a further debate—but at the moment we are talking about a figure for the third year. I have given him a figure—a 12% reduction versus the 20% reduction. He needs to listen and to recognise that.

--- Later in debate ---

[Gloria De Piero]

I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend’s comments.

The line now taken by the Government seems to be that it does not matter how many police officers there are. As some Members have noted, that is a far cry from the general election campaign, when Liberal Democrats were promising to recruit 3,000 extra police officers. We might be getting a little immune to the Liberal Democrats breaking election promises, but this one, like so many others, was not worth the ink on the “Focus” leaflet it was printed on. I will be interested to see the “Focus” leaflet in Eastleigh, where I am sure they will be explaining why there will be 295 fewer police officers on the streets in Hampshire.

We have heard from a lot of Members today, but it is also worth reflecting on the views of those we have been sent here to represent. Last month, ComRes conducted polling for ITV news that shows why there can be no room for the complacency that I fear we are seeing on the Government Benches. In the poll, 38% thought that crime had got worse in their area in the past three months and just 6% thought that it had got better. On antisocial behaviour, 22% thought it had got worse in the past three months, while just 8% thought that it had got better. We should all be concerned when more than one in five believe antisocial behaviour has got worse and more than one in three believe that crime has got worse in their neighbourhood. If the public express their concerns and believe that crime and antisocial behaviour are rising, we have a duty to reflect those concerns.

Last week, I spoke to a senior police officer who told me that the thing the public tell all of us that they value most—the bobby on the beat in our communities—is becoming harder and harder to provide. He said:

“The policing pledge forced us to up our game. Things like the requirement to spend at least 80% of time on the beat”—

I still have not been given an answer to why that pledge was scrapped—

“and responding to non urgent messages to the neighbourhood team within 24 hours—when we did that our satisfaction rates went through the roof. That customer focus has now gone.”

He went on to say:

“Our first job is to keep people safe so the police service has fallen back to its core service. Neighbourhood policing has fallen back. The 999 stuff is still okay. The neighbourhood stuff, the fact that the community know us and who the local bobby is—that’s gone. You deal with demand, withdraw to your statutory responsibilities, but issues like antisocial behaviour where you need to build trust and confidence, you need people to know you so you can nip things in the bud—that’s gone. At the moment we are just ending up with bigger and bigger control rooms. We’re not doing the bobby on the beat stuff and that is storing up problems for the future.”

Like many in this House, I hear horrific tales from my constituents. Last week I received a letter from a constituent who told me:

“we have suffered…with antisocial behaviour around the property we live which is causing great unease and discomfort. We understand that staffing levels are low and they have to prioritise the workload”—

but that by the time the police arrived

“all of the offenders had left the area so no action was taken”.

My constituent went on:

“we now feel totally alone in dealing with this situation and think this is totally unacceptable”.

Police solved 30,000 fewer crimes last year as the number of officers was slashed. Detection rates fell for the first time in more than a decade. Fewer crimes are being solved, fewer criminals are being caught and fewer victims are getting justice. The police are needed to provide a reassuring, visible presence in our neighbourhoods. Have any Members been approached by a constituent and heard the words, “Thank you for cutting the number of police officers on our streets”?

[Mr Jeremy Browne]

As the hon. Lady has mentioned it, I have had a number of people coming up to me in the past two and a half years saying, “Thank God we have a Government who are willing to get to grips with the appalling deficit left behind by the previous Labour Government.”

[Gloria De Piero]

This is a debate about the police, but I will say this: borrowing is up.

The question today is: do we want to vote for budget proposals from the Government parties that guarantee the lowest number of police officers in a decade, or do we want to listen to the public and the police and call on the Government to change course and rethink next year’s police budget cuts and stop letting communities down?

Oral Answers to Questions

Jeremy Browne Excerpts

Monday 11th February 2013 Commons Chamber

[Stuart Andrew (Pudsey) (Con)]

12. What recent steps she has taken to tackle gang and youth violence.

[The Minister of State, Home Department (Mr Jeremy Browne)]

On 27 November, the Government published our “Ending Gang and Youth Violence Report: One Year On”, setting out achievements and further commitments. Over the past year practical support has been provided to 29 local areas. Support for four more areas was announced in December.

[Stuart Andrew]

My constituent, Lorraine Fraser, has long campaigned against gang violence after tragically losing her son in an unprovoked attack. She has spent considerable time with young people, warning them of the consequences of being involved in gangs. What action is the Department taking to improve such intervention in our schools to tackle gang violence?

[Mr Browne]

I give my sincere commiserations to Lorraine Fraser. It must have been an extremely harrowing ordeal for her. It reminds me of a case in my constituency shortly after I was elected in 2005, when a young man called Lloyd Fouracre was murdered. His brother, Adam, was extremely energetic in promoting safety among young people in schools and elsewhere. I commend the work of the hon. Gentleman’s constituent and of mine. Our work on ending gang and youth violence includes elements of programmes in schools, and I commend that type of work right across the country.

[Hazel Blears (Salford and Eccles) (Lab)]

A few weeks ago in my constituency, there was an horrific incident when a totally innocent shopkeeper was attacked by an individual wielding a nine-inch kitchen knife. It subsequently transpired that that person had mental health problems. My chief constable tells me that violence is increasingly perpetrated by people with mental health problems. What is the Minister doing with his colleagues in the Department of Health to tackle this increasing danger to people in our communities?

[Mr Browne]

I am very sorry to hear about that appalling case. I again pass my commiserations to everybody involved. We try across Government—with the Department of Health in this case—to ensure that policy is effective in combining all the elements needed to reduce criminality. Although it is no consolation to the family in this case, it might help the House to know that, according to the crime survey for England and Wales, in the year to June 2012 there was a 14% reduction in homicides, a 9% reduction in violent incidents involving knives or sharp instruments, and an 18% reduction in gun crime. It might not be much consolation to victims of crime, but, overall, violent crime in this country is falling.

[Mr David Ward (Bradford East) (LD)]

13. What steps her Department is taking to ensure that applications for residence cards from citizens of the European economic area which have been referred for policy guidance are processed promptly.

--- Later in debate ---

[Simon Wright (Norwich South) (LD)]

14. What steps she is taking to enable local communities to tackle antisocial behaviour.

[The Minister of State, Home Department (Mr Jeremy Browne)]

The Government have published a draft Bill that sets out measures that will put victims and communities at the heart of the response to antisocial behaviour. It includes the community trigger, which will give people the power to make agencies take persistent problems seriously; the community remedy, which will give victims a say in the punishment of offenders out of court; and faster, more effective powers to enable front-line professionals better to protect the public.

[Simon Wright]

Much of the antisocial behaviour experienced by my constituents in Norwich is associated with excess alcohol consumption. I welcome the new early morning restriction orders, but I urge the Government to end the abundant supply of pocket-money priced alcohol in response to their recent consultation on alcohol pricing.

[Mr Browne]

My hon. Friend is right to remind the House that in October the Government introduced early morning restriction orders along with a provision on the charging of a late-night levy as part of a package of measures to deal with concerns that had been brought to our attention about alcohol licensing and consumption. He will know that the consultation on minimum unit pricing and other alcohol-related measures finished last week. We will consider properly the representations that we have received and make an announcement in due course.

[Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab)]

Under the Government’s new policy on antisocial behaviour, people will have to complain three times. Why on earth should people have to wait so long before receiving help?

[Mr Browne]

This is frustrating for me, because we have explained this policy so painstakingly and carefully, and the concept is so simple, but let me have one more go. We want every council in the country and other relevant agencies to respond straight away whenever problems are brought to their attention. However, it has been brought to our attention, including in a lot of areas with Labour councils, that people keep bringing complaints, particularly lower-level complaints, about individual incidents that do not always warrant immediate attention. We want to ensure that there is some measure of cumulative impact. That is why we have put this measure in place, and it is popular. In the pilot schemes, people are running with it. I commend it to councils around the country, including Labour-run councils.

[Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab)]

15. What recent assessment she has made of the detection rates for violent crimes against the person; and if she will make a statement.

[The Minister of State, Home Department (Mr Jeremy Browne)]

In 2011-12, the police detected more than 353,000 offences of violence against the person. That represents a detection rate of 46.4%, which is up from 44.7% in 2009-10.

[Kelvin Hopkins]

I thank the Minister for his answer, but my statistics suggest that police officer numbers are at their lowest in a decade, and that 7,000 fewer crimes of violence against the person were solved in the past year. Does the Minister understand that simple connection, and is it time to stop and reverse the police cuts?

[Mr Browne]

I took the trouble to look up the crime figures for Bedfordshire, which I know will be of interest to the hon. Gentleman; he can tell the House how he sees the correlation. Recorded crime is falling in Bedfordshire. Figures for the 12 months to September 2012 compared with the corresponding 12 months in 2011 show a total reduction in crime of 12% in just one year. Violence against the person was down by 15%, and the Government should be pleased with that record while not being complacent and trying to drive crime down further.

[Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)]

Official figures show that 30,000 fewer crimes were solved last year—the first time that figure has fallen in more than a decade. Does the Minister think that the 11,500 fewer police officers on the front line have anything to do with fewer criminals being caught and convicted?

[Mr Browne]

Two things make Labour MPs look really glum: unemployment falling and crime falling. Any party whose interests conflict so directly with the interests of the people it purports to serve has got political problems. The most recent figures from the crime survey for England and Wales show an 8% fall in crime, and recorded crime statistics are down 7%. The Government have got crime down to the lowest point since records began in 1981, so there are fewer crimes to detect. I hope we will carry on and get crime down even further.

--- Later in debate ---

[Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab)]

T3. Mephedrone offences have increased significantly in Wales since October 2011. More girls are using it than any drug in the past, and dealing is more open than ever before. What are the Government doing to promote cross-border action between England and Wales to tackle the supply of this dangerous drug?

[The Minister of State, Home Department (Mr Jeremy Browne)]

I am extremely sorry to hear about the experiences in the hon. Gentleman’s constituency. Drug consumption overall in England and Wales is falling, and there is a lot of different statistical evidence that all points in that direction. However, I take his point that there are differing threats, and that some drugs do not fall in line with other types of drugs. I am happy to meet him if he would like to discuss what more we can do to improve the situation in his constituency.

[Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con)]

T4. What overall progress is the Minister making on reducing net migration into the UK to a more sustainable level?

--- Later in debate ---

[John Glen (Salisbury) (Con)]

T8. The Minister will be aware of the excellent work done by the freedom programme for female victims of domestic violence. In my constituency, the refuge is keen to explore the possibility of a parallel scheme focused on male victims. Will he join me in endorsing this endeavour and indicate what resources are available to support this worthwhile scheme?

[Mr Jeremy Browne]

My hon. Friend raises an important point. Approximately one fifth of the victims of domestic violence are men, but most of the services—understandably, because the majority of victims are women—are designed to help female victims of domestic violence. Where services can be provided to help men, however, it would seem to be an entirely commendable and virtuous form of service provision. I congratulate those involved on what is happening in his constituency, and hope it can be applied more widely where it is seen to be valuable.

[Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab)]

T6. The Minister has come to these questions armed with some excellent answers, but unfortunately they are not relevant to the questions he is being asked. The specific question is this: he stood for election on the basis of having 3,000 more police officers, but is now part of a Government presiding over 7,000 fewer, and at the same time 30,000 fewer crimes are being solved, so does he still recognise the link between more police officers and fewer crimes being solved?

[Mr Browne]

The crime survey for England and Wales began in 1981, when I was at primary school, and we now have the lowest reported crime in England and Wales since the survey began 32 years ago. I am proud of that record, and I am surprised that the hon. Gentleman does not share my pride.

[Mr James Clappison (Hertsmere) (Con)]

Have Ministers seen the estimate from Migration Watch of 50,000 people migrating from Bulgaria and Romania? It has a good track record in these matters. May we have the earliest possible announcement of concrete results from the ministerial group on ease of access to benefits?

Oral Answers to Questions

Jeremy Browne Excerpts

Monday 7th January 2013 Commons Chamber

[John Mann (Bassetlaw) (Lab)]

3. What recent assessment she has made of trends in the level of use of the drug MCAT in the UK.

[The Minister of State, Home Department (Mr Jeremy Browne)]

The Government started collecting data in the crime survey for England and Wales in 2010-11. MCAT has been banned since April 2010 because it is harmful to human health. We should not underestimate the impact of the drug, although consumption appears to be falling. Between 2010-11 and 2011-12, mephedrone use “in the last year” fell from 1.4% to 1.1% among 16 to 59-year-olds and from 4.4% to 3.3% among 16 to 24-year-olds.

[John Mann]

Happy new year to you, Mr. Speaker.

I will be reconvening my heroin panel of 10 years ago in the next few weeks, and MCAT is one of the issues that we will be considering. I also wish the Minister a happy new year. Will he agree to meet my panel when it comes down to London and to receive our report on the growing plague of MCAT in my constituency and elsewhere in the country?

[Mr Browne]

I thank the hon. Gentleman through you, Mr Speaker, for that happy new year welcome, which I reciprocate. I will be happy to meet the group. As I said, we do not underestimate the harmful impact of the drug. Its consumption is considerable, and we would like to see it reduced further.

[Oliver Colvile (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) (Con)]

4. What assessment her Department has made of the most recent statistics on net migration.

--- Later in debate ---

[Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/Co-op)]

14. What steps the Government are taking to tackle antisocial behaviour.

[The Minister of State, Home Department (Mr Jeremy Browne)]

We have just published a draft Bill setting out measures to put victims at the heart of the response to antisocial behaviour. They include the community trigger, which will ensure agencies take persistent problems seriously; the community remedy, giving victims a say in the punishment of offenders out of court; and, overall, faster, more effective powers so that front-line professionals can better protect the public.

[Tom Blenkinsop]

Between June 2011 and June 2012, more than 2.5 million incidents of antisocial behaviour were recorded in England and Wales. Under Labour, half the people who breached antisocial behaviour orders went to jail. Why is the Minister replacing Labour’s tough sentencing with much weaker, last-resort injunctions, such as activity orders and supervision requirements, and demanding that local authorities pay for them?

[Mr Browne]

The short answer is that we are replacing them so that we can have more effective measures in place. I draw the hon. Gentleman’s attention to a recent quotation from the Labour Chairman of the Home Affairs Committee:

“I very much welcome the Government’s decision to overhaul the statutory framework for tackling anti-social behaviour. We must ensure that the new Act is more robust than the original ASBO legislation, which has been amended every year since it was passed in 1998.”

[Bridget Phillipson]

The complacency of Ministers in this area and the fact that it has taken two and a half years to get to this point offer no reassurance to those who face daily fear and intimidation because of antisocial behaviour. Those in my community whose lives are blighted by this want to know why Ministers appear not to be on their side and are instead seeking to weaken the powers available to the police to tackle antisocial behaviour.

[Mr Browne]

Let me make two brief points. First, we take antisocial behaviour extremely seriously. I think that MPs of all parties see the terrible effect that antisocial behaviour has on decent, law-abiding citizens and we want to help them. Secondly, the measures are designed to be quicker and more effective than those previously in place. If they were not going to achieve that objective, we would not be bringing them forward.

[Meg Hillier]

The Minister has given warm words about his desire to tackle antisocial behaviour, but why is it that my constituents and people up and down the country who suffer antisocial behaviour will now get no action unless they complain three times, not just once?

[Mr Browne]

The hon. Lady misunderstands the intention of the policy. Our hope is that the police and other authorities will respond instantly when concerns are raised about antisocial behaviour. The problem in the past has been when the same concern has been raised repeatedly and no response has been forthcoming. What we are putting in place is a defined measure to make sure that that no longer happens.

[Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con)]

The latest figures show that in North West Leicestershire 92% of people who complained about antisocial behaviour were at least satisfied with the service they received from the police. Will my hon. Friend join me in congratulating Leicestershire police force on the work it is doing in combating antisocial behaviour?

[Mr Browne]

I do congratulate Leicestershire police force. It is coming up to eight years that I have been a Member of Parliament and I observe that my own police force in Avon and Somerset is making a more concerted effort—I am sure that this is true generally—to deal with antisocial behaviour and to respond quickly when concerns are raised. We want to make that service even better across all police forces in the future.

[Mr David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con)]

16. We all know that, often, where Enfield leads other areas of the country follow. Certainly, lessons will be learned from Enfield, where there has been a 50% reduction in antisocial behaviour as well as in serious violence in key gang areas as a result of hard-hitting call-ins. That has been recognised recently, not least by the Minister when he awarded the Tilley national award to Enfield for its good progress.

[Mr Browne]

I have fond memories of Enfield, Southgate from when I stood, unsuccessfully, in the hon. Gentleman’s constituency. That gave me extra reason to be pleased to present the Tilley award to Enfield, which was fitting recognition for all the hard work that has taken place in his borough.

[Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)]

Was the Minister as pleased as I was to read in The Daily Telegraph on 3 December 2012 the following quote from a Government Minister:

“New measures are planned to cut the number of criminals who carry knives”?

Is this a welcome sign that we now have a Government who are willing to make the punishment fit the crime?

[Mr Browne]

Knife crime is, of course, of great concern to communities across the country, because its impact can be devastating for victims and their families. We are working hard to try to reduce the number of knives, including specific measures to that effect.

[Gloria De Piero (Ashfield) (Lab)]

The community trigger has been described as a new and improved way to deal with repeat complaints of antisocial behaviour. Brighton and Hove is one of the pilot areas, and in the first quarter of its pilot there were more than 7,000 recorded incidents of antisocial behaviour. During that same period, the community trigger was successfully triggered just four times. Is that rate a success?

[Mr Browne]

It is difficult to respond definitively because absolute success would mean never having to use the trigger at all. That would constitute a very responsive set of authorities. This is a serious measure and I am sure that Members from all parts of the House approve of it. We must all be familiar with people in our constituencies who have raised a concern repeatedly, but who do not feel that it has been taken sufficiently seriously and want greater action to be taken. We want to empower them to ensure that their lives are no longer blighted by antisocial behaviour.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jane Ellison (Battersea) (Con)]

15. What recent steps she has taken to reduce gang-related and youth violence.

[The Minister of State, Home Department (Mr Jeremy Browne)]

Large areas of Government policy are having a positive impact on the matter. Specifically, we are supporting 29 local areas that face problems of gang and youth violence. That includes tackling young people possessing knives, which we were talking about a moment ago. We have also recently announced that we will provide practical support to another four areas.

[Jane Ellison]

I thank the Minister. I have become aware of some particularly appalling examples in my constituency of young girls being drawn into gangs, and there are high levels of sexual violence associated with that. What work is being done to understand that, and in particular, what further work might be done to provide exit strategies for girls drawn into gang culture?

[Mr Browne]

My hon. Friend is right to draw the House’s attention to an under-reported aspect of the problem, which is the involvement of girls and young women in gangs and the exploitation of them. We are supporting financially young people’s advocates around the country to support girls at risk of suffering from gang-related violence. More generally, we are having a reasonable impact, including through reductions in the past year in homicides, the use of knives or sharp instruments and gun crime, and that impact benefits everybody.

[Mr David Lammy (Tottenham) (Lab)]

The Minister will be aware that just over 18 months ago there was widespread arson, looting and violence, which emanated from my constituency and spread across the country. Given that context, does he view with alarm the Mayor’s decision to shut half of London’s police stations? In particular, is he concerned about the closure of Tottenham police station and the withdrawal of the police officers stationed in it? Is this not just open season for London’s thugs, gang members and hoodlums?

[Mr Browne]

No; I do not accept that characterisation at all. Perhaps I could draw the right hon. Gentleman’s attention to a recent quote from Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe, who said:

“If we ended up with less people but better technology, and ended up being better at fighting crime, I’d say that wouldn’t be a bad thing”.

The right hon. Gentleman will note that in London, the Metropolitan police reports that serious youth violence has fallen by 34% since the launch of the new Trident gang crime command less than a year ago, in February 2012.

[Rushanara Ali (Bethnal Green and Bow) (Lab)]

17. What recent representations she has received on the number of front-line police officers.

--- Later in debate ---

[Nick de Bois (Enfield North) (Con)]

T6. As a result of a written question that I tabled on 9 November, it emerged that, on average, three babies a year are born with an addiction to class A drugs. Given that the national health service is spending half a billion pounds on the treatment of people who are addicted to class A drugs, does the Home Secretary agree that the police should make it a priority to prosecute dealers, and that those dealers should face the severest of sentences?

[The Minister of State, Home Department (Mr Jeremy Browne)]

My hon. Friend has raised a particularly tragic aspect of drug abuse, namely its effect on newborn children. This is part of a wider effort to reduce the harm caused by drugs. I am pleased that over the past decade there have been substantial falls in the consumption of illegal drugs—including the more harmful ones such as heroin—but the problem is continuing to evolve, especially in relation to legal highs. We are constantly thinking about how we can do more to prosecute those who trade in drugs, and how we can reduce the harm caused by them.

[Mr Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op)]

A freedom of information answer from the Metropolitan police revealed that some 4,000 front-line police officers covering the London boroughs had been lost during the Government’s first two years in office. How does the Minister think that that is helping to tackle gang violence and antisocial behaviour—which is causing growing concern—and does he think that it may have contributed to the riots in any way?

Arab Spring Asset Recovery Task Force

Jeremy Browne Excerpts

Monday 17th December 2012 Written Statements

[The Minister of State, Home Department (Mr Jeremy Browne)]

On 26 September the Prime Minister announced at the UN General Assembly that the UK will create a new cross-Government taskforce to return assets stolen by members of the former regimes of the Arab spring countries. The taskforce has now started work to accelerate our existing effort to return stolen assets to the Egyptian, Libyan and Tunisian people.

We have established a multi-agency team, under a single operational-lead, involving staff from the Home Office, Serious Organised Crime Agency, Metropolitan Police and Crown Prosecution Service. Leading members of the team have already visited Cairo to forge links with their counterparts in the Egyptian authorities. As well as posting a CPS prosecutor and a Metropolitan police financial investigator to Egypt, we will also post a regional asset recovery adviser to the region to assist the authorities in Egypt, Libya and Tunisia.

In addition to the operational response, I want to make sure that we have the necessary tools and powers to ensure that the UK is not a safe haven for the proceeds of corruption. We have already pushed for changes to the EU sanctions regulations, which came into effect on 27 November. They have been amended to allow better information sharing between EU member states and Arab spring countries.

The taskforce will also conduct a review of the UK’s legal framework for providing assistance to other countries seeking to repatriate stolen assets. Michael Beloff QC has been instructed to provide independent expert advice to inform the review.

The taskforce will lead diplomatic work to rebuild the UK’s good reputation on asset recovery, and we will seek opportunities through our G8 Presidency in 2013 to encourage greater partnership working between the G8, Arab spring countries and other regional allies.

This is important work, and we are making good progress, but it will take time to achieve the results we want. Asset recovery requires painstaking work to identify and trace hidden assets, while ensuring the proper judicial processes are followed to confiscate them. There is a moral imperative for this work to be carried out swiftly; the taskforce brings a new energy and focus to this endeavour.

Draft Anti-Social Behaviour Bill

Jeremy Browne Excerpts

Thursday 13th December 2012 Written Statements

[The Minister of State, Home Department (Mr Jeremy Browne)]

I am today publishing a draft Anti-Social Behaviour Bill for pre-legislative scrutiny by the Home Affairs Select Committee. I would like to thank the Chair for agreeing to undertake this scrutiny and look forward to receiving his report in the new year. It is important that those who are affected by these changes, from the professionals who will use the new powers to victims seeking protection from targeted abuse, continue to shape the reforms, making sure that we get this right first time.

Everyone has the right to feel safe in their own homes and neighbourhoods, but for too many people anti-social behaviour remains a fact of life. The consequences can be devastating, which is why we are putting victims first by taking forward measures in our anti-social behaviour White Paper that will support local areas to:

Focus the response to anti-social behaviour on the needs of victims;

Empower communities to get involved in tackling anti-social behaviour;

Ensure professionals are able to protect the public quickly through the introduction of faster, more effective powers and proposals to speed up the eviction of the most anti-social tenants; and

Focus on long-term solutions.

The draft Bill includes these more effective powers, and also two important new measures to help focus the response to anti-social behaviour on the needs of victims:

The community trigger—will give victims and communities the right to require agencies to deal with persistent anti-social behaviour that has previously been ignored. The trigger could be activated by a member of the public, a community or a business if repeated complaints about anti-social behaviour have been ignored.

The community remedy—will give victims of low-level crime and anti-social behaviour a say in the punishment of offenders out of court. This means victims will get justice quickly, and the offender has to face immediate and meaningful consequences for their actions.

The draft Anti-Social Behaviour Bill can be viewed on the Home Office website and copies are also available in the Vote Office.

Police and Crime Commissioners

Jeremy Browne Excerpts

Wednesday 5th December 2012 Westminster Hall

[The Minister of State, Home Department (Mr Jeremy Browne)]

It is a pleasure for all hon. Members to see you safely back in our parliamentary bosom, Ms Dorries.

As always, I congratulate the hon. Member for Nottingham North (Mr Allen), whom for the purposes of this debate I call my hon. Friend, on his sterling and sustained work on early intervention. To summarise what I am going to say in the next 10 to 12 minutes, I agree with him. He is right to give this issue his attention. The evidence is compelling. There are some encouraging long-term crime trends in Britain and other countries in the western world, but those will only be sustained by having a long-term analysis of and understanding about what causes crime, and with solutions to those causes that drive down the figures in future.

The hon. Gentleman mentioned police and crime commissioners. People abbreviate that, calling them police commissioners, and in doing so risk overlooking an important component of the commissioners’ work, which is the “and crime” dimension. They are not just the chairman of the local police force, organising its budgets and recruitment practices. They are also there to take a view about how to reduce crime in the area that they are responsible for, which may mean short-term interventions with immediate crime problems—I hope that they will do that—and about having a broader, longer-term view about the causes of crime and what they can do to bring about positive changes.

I will talk a little bit about police and crime commissioners, but first let me illustrate why early intervention is so important and then talk briefly about some measures that we are already putting place, which could work either with the commissioners or standing on their own, but are nevertheless important in terms of the broader issue that the hon. Gentleman brings to our attention.

On the benefits of early intervention, I want to bring two brief studies to the attention of the House. One was an American study that found that children growing up in violent households had a seven times higher chance of developing alcohol problems than children who did not suffer such adverse experiences at home in their formative years; the chance of developing illicit drug use problems was four and a half times higher, and the chance of committing violence was nearly nine times higher. There are causal links, and the likelihood of children whose first few years are the most difficult having such problems is not just 5% or 10% greater, but hundreds per cent. greater. The second study was done in the United Kingdom, and it showed that children who were identified as being at risk at the age of three had two and a half times more criminal convictions by the time they turned 21 than those not so identified.

The value of what the hon. Gentleman has brought to our attention is obvious, and the benefits are felt sooner than some people might realise in some contexts, such as truanting from school and petty—entry-level, if you like—criminality among relatively young children. We are not necessarily talking about a 20 or even 15-year time lag; there might be a much shorter time lag before the benefits of today’s early intervention can be seen.

The Government have introduced several measures that we hope will have a beneficial impact. We are spending —if the different funds are aggregated—£2.3 billion this year, £2.4 billion next year and £2.5 billion the year after on the early intervention grant. I should not anticipate the autumn statement, which will happen in just over an hour, but I suspect that not every Government budget will receive such year-on-year increases. However, we are keen to sustain funding for the early intervention grant. The Government are also extending entitlement to free early education to two-year-olds from next year, so that more children will be given opportunities at that formative stage. A separate sum of £448 million has been allocated for the troubled families programme, to ensure that we have the right multi-agency hands-on approach for the 120,000 families around the country who have been identified as in the greatest difficulty. I know from first-hand experience, because I have sat in on the meetings, that the Prime Minister takes a direct interest in that initiative, and that it has the support of many Departments. It is hugely important for the life opportunities and prospects of the children of those families that it should succeed; and it is also important in relation to the issue that we are debating—the impact on crime in the future.

The family nurse partnership programme is a scheme to help, particularly, vulnerable teenage mothers who perhaps do not have the support network that they need in their family or community to give their children the best start in life. We are expanding that, and thousands of young women will experience the benefits of the programme in the next three years. That is intended to ensure that children have the right early upbringing—that they are raised well and have the right diet—to stand them in good stead.

There are other schemes being run in different Departments. We hope that many of the changes in the Department for Education will be beneficial for attendance rates and ways of dealing with children who have behavioural problems, and will improve performance and exam attainment. There is a quite close correlation between success at school and likely propensity to criminality either while the child should be at school or later. The link is not an absolute one: some high-achieving children go on to be criminal, and some low-achieving ones do not; but there is a correlation. On the employment side, there is also a link between worklessness and a propensity to a life of criminality, and we are trying to do more to help young people to get apprenticeships, for example. The Government funded 360,000 apprenticeships last year, and have also spent £30 million on the innovation fund, which supports about 17,000 of the most vulnerable young people over a three-year period. I have mentioned those things because I would not want the House to form the impression that the area in question is receiving no attention. Senior and Cabinet-level Ministers, including in the Home Office—the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions is another good example—are trying to do more about the problems that the hon. Gentleman has raised.

The hon. Gentleman discussed police and crime commissioners and I want to spend the last few minutes of my speech on that subject. Their purpose is to give the work of the police greater public accountability, but also to give a sense of leadership, in public communications terms, to policing in each community. I hope that they will become important figureheads and help to give impetus to improvements in their police forces, but also drive a public debate within communities about what can be done to tackle the sorts of crime that MPs hear about every day—lower-level crime, vandalism, antisocial behaviour, late-night noise and graffiti. I hope that they will be interested in all those issues, as well as in more serious crimes such as domestic violence and burglary.

I hope that the commissioners will see—and this is the purpose of the debate—the wider benefits of working with other agencies besides the police. The police in my constituency of Taunton Deane are very responsive in working with schools, voluntary community groups, neighbourhood watch schemes, churches, cadets and scout groups. All those groups can play an important role. Local businesses are also often willing to support initiatives that reduce local crime and help with early intervention. I hope that PCCs will be imaginative about their use of budgets and time, so that as well as working with the police they can encourage the police and others to work together for the benefit of the community.

The hon. Gentleman raised two specific points—two “asks”, I think he said. The first one was easy, when he was good enough to ask me whether I would speak at an event he is arranging with police and crime commissioners. I would be delighted to speak at such an event and hope that by doing so I give force and the Government’s backing to exactly the type of activity that he brings to our attention. Diary permitting, obviously, I say yes, thank you, to that invitation.

The second point was about bringing together a group of police and crime commissioners. I think that the hon. Gentleman suggested a group of 10. I am interested in that, and would like to consider what we could do and how officials might want to organise it. Of course, the Home Office must do a difficult balancing act: we cannot tell police forces that we are letting go and that we want police and crime commissioners with their direct electoral mandate to make decisions about their time and budgets in their area and then, as soon as we have said it, tell them that we are going to organise lots of events where we will tell them how to organise their affairs. We want to get the right balance, and we want them to take the leadership role. However, the Home Office Ministers met all the police and crime commissioners on Monday to talk through some of the programme and the activities that we have in the Home Office, to introduce them to some of the ideas. I see huge virtue in sharing early intervention best practice, particularly with police and crime commissioners who are interested. I am keen to work with the hon. Gentleman on ideas of that type, and on other projects, to make further progress on early intervention.

Gangs and Youth Violence (2011 Riots)

Jeremy Browne Excerpts

Tuesday 4th December 2012 Westminster Hall

[The Minister of State, Home Department (Mr Jeremy Browne)]

Thank you very much, Mr Streeter, for giving me the opportunity to conclude this afternoon’s debate. It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship.

I congratulate the hon. Member for Westminster North (Ms Buck) on securing this debate. I remember that about five or six years ago, when she was a Minister and I was a relatively new MP, she was very nice to me—well, she said that I was surprisingly sensible for a Liberal Democrat, which was qualified niceness but nevertheless nicer than I had expected. I will try to reciprocate that positive attitude during my concluding remarks.

I just want to give a little bit of context. I do not say this in any way because I take any of the issues that have been raised lightly, but listening to the debate, one might be forgiven for thinking that we are having it against a backdrop of escalating crime in London or across the country. I will respond in a moment to the substantive points that Members have made, but it is worth briefly putting the statistical context in front of the House.

That context is that recorded crime figures show a 14% reduction in homicides in the last year. That is very substantial. Offences involving knives and sharp instruments are down by 9% over the same period. Also, NHS data on hospital admissions for assault, which are a very good indicator of the level of violent crime, including unreported violent crime, show a 6% reduction in the 12 months to the end of March 2012. Members have been good enough to pay tribute to the work that has taken place with the Metropolitan Police Service and other agencies here in London.

Of course there are appalling incidents and we are not complacent. As a Government, we want to try to do everything that we can to reduce gang membership and gang violence, but it is worth noting that there have been successes. There are volunteers and charitable organisations across London and across the country as a whole who should feel proud of what they have achieved; we should recognise that their efforts are reaping some dividends; and we would like even more to happen in the future.

I will divide my comments into three sections: the first is about how we try to prevent gang membership and violence; the second is about how we try to intervene at the crucial point if we fail to prevent gang violence; and the third is about the sanctions that are used afterwards.

I obviously have only a few minutes left to speak, so let me split up the first section on how we try to prevent gang violence. In a way, prevention easily splits into a sort of adolescent stage and a pre-adolescent stage. Regarding the pre-adolescent stage, I hope that Members will join me in Westminster Hall tomorrow when we have a debate about early intervention. That is a very important area and Members will know about the troubled families initiative, in which the Prime Minister takes a personal interest. That initiative is trying to help the 120,000 most troubled families in the country. There is a very high statistical correlation between children being born in troubled circumstances and their going on to experience underachievement, as shown in their employment history, their crime record and their gang membership. There is a certain level of activity through which the Government can intervene in that area.

Members will also know about the Government’s commitment to the family-nurse partnership programme, in which we will double the number of places to at least 13,000 by 2015. So there is a body of early work, and the right hon. Member for Tottenham (Mr Lammy) again mentioned today the importance of even wider social initiatives, such as having more male teachers in primary schools and more role models for boys, and I agree with him on that.

We then get into the adolescent and predominantly male stage; we are talking mainly, although not exclusively, about young men. Members have referred to the Government’s initiative to reprioritise £10 million worth of funding to 29 areas, including areas here in London—every Member who has spoken in the debate, apart from me, represents a London constituency. At least half of that money, so at least £5 million, has been spent on grants that have been given to voluntary groups, and that is not the only funding that has been made available.

However, I should say that I do not think the Government’s commitment to tackling this issue is just measured by how much public spending is devoted to it. There are huge numbers of very good voluntary groups, such as cadets, scouts, sports clubs, church groups and others, that are run by people right across the country and that have a very big role to play in engaging young people and giving them meaningful activity that does not involve gang membership and violence. I therefore reject the notion that the Government’s commitment to the agenda is measured entirely by the amount of public money we spend.

Having said that, we are spending £3.75 million over two years on the communities against guns, gangs and knives programme, £4 million has been made available to voluntary and community organisations working directly in local communities, and—I was asked about this by the hon. Member for Cities of London and Westminster (Mark Field)—we are also providing £1.2 million over three years, starting this year, to improve services to girls at risk of being victims of gangs and sexual exploitation.

[Meg Hillier]

I have been in the Minister’s shoes, and I am a constituency MP with a strong interest in this matter. He has talked a lot about voluntary projects, but what the Home Office can do apart from providing some funds is rigorously to evaluate what works and to ensure that funding goes only to the projects that work. It should not be sprinkled so thinly that it has less impact than it ought to.

[Mr Browne]

We are keen to spend the money where it works most effectively. As has been pointed out, it is not just the Home Office that spends it; the Department for Work and Pensions has an innovation fund of £30 million, some of which is spent in this area, and there is another DWP project that helps prisoners on their release from prison. That matter was raised by a number of Members, including the right hon. Member for Tottenham.

The Ministry of Justice is leading some interesting pilot studies on payment by results, looking at how we can incentivise prisons more effectively to reduce the terrible reoffending rates, which the right hon. Gentleman mentioned. He also talked about work in young offenders institutions and adult prisons, and he specifically mentioned Feltham young offenders institution, which has joined together with the Islington youth offending team to deliver a specialist programme for gang members in custody. There is a lot of excellent work such as that, large parts of it directly supported, and in some cases funded, by central Government.

[Ms Buck]

I have been listening closely to what the hon. Gentleman has said, and he has not yet answered the question that I and my hon. Friend the Member for Walthamstow (Stella Creasy) put to him: will the ending gang and youth violence funding from the Home Office, which is delivering so much of the anti-gangs strategy at the moment and is due to expire in March 2013, be continued at least at its present level into 2013-14?

[Mr Browne]

Let me address that point, and the initiatives that we have carried out, in the remainder of my speech. It is relevant to the third part of what I hope to tell the House.

Let me address the funding first. I am not in a position this afternoon to give guarantees on funding for future financial years. The funding was never made available on the understanding that it would be available indefinitely. We want to plant seeds and allow trees to grow. There is a lot of voluntary activity of which we are very supportive, and community safety budgets are being de-ring-fenced and will be spent by police and crime commissioners or, in London, by the Mayor’s office. They might choose to spend more money in this area than has previously been the case, but we are not in a position to second-guess elected police and crime commissioners, including Labour ones, who might or might not spend more, depending on their priorities.

[Mark Field]

Although the Minister is absolutely right to make the case that none of the funding was to be indefinite, does he not accept that where a local authority, such as Westminster—I am sure this applies in other areas, from Hackney to Haringey and elsewhere—has successful programmes in place, it would be sensible to continue elements of the funding to ensure that we get the right outcomes?

[Mr Browne]

We are keen to ensure good value for money, and that is what the Government will try to achieve with the huge amounts of public money we are spending. I am pleased that crime levels are dropping dramatically, and we want them to continue to fall, which is why we are also bringing forward measures such as the ones introduced just yesterday that will allow for more severe penalties for knife possession. Such sentences were not available in a mandatory form under the previous Government. We have new initiatives on injunctions, which we believe are very positive, and I will take forward the point made by the hon. Member for Hackney South and Shoreditch (Meg Hillier) about the positive as well as the negative use of injunctions. We have a reasonable story to tell, and we want to make further progress in the years ahead.

Knife Crime

Jeremy Browne Excerpts

Tuesday 27th November 2012 Westminster Hall

[The Minister of State, Home Department (Mr Jeremy Browne)]

I am grateful for the opportunity to make the final contribution to this extremely important debate, which will be of genuine interest to people around the country who have day-to-day experience of the terrible circumstances that we are discussing. I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Clacton (Mr Carswell) for bringing the issue before us, as well as to the right hon. Member for Tottenham (Mr Lammy), my hon. Friend the Member for Colchester (Sir Bob Russell) and the Opposition spokesperson, the right hon. Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson), who have all spoken. Because I have a little more time to respond than is sometimes the case in such debates, I want to engage more directly in some of the points that hon. Members have raised.

It was interesting that my hon. Friend the Member for Clacton said that although the Government and the state—in the form of the police—have a role to play, this is not just about central Government finding solutions and telling local communities what those solutions are, but about local communities seeking their own solutions. Police and crime commissioners can play a leadership role on that. They are not the only people with responsibility, but they do have a responsibility in this area. The right hon. Member for Tottenham compellingly developed that theme when he talked about the cultural context. However many laws we pass in this House and however much advertising we use taxpayers’ money to fund, cultural issues are probably the biggest determining factor for success in this area.

Why do most people choose not to carry a knife? Some people might carry knives for a rational reason—because they may feel that it makes them more secure. They may, as my hon. Friend the Member for Colchester reminded us, be miscalculating, but they nevertheless made that miscalculation for rational reasons. Most people do not carry knives. Most people think that it is wrong to carry a knife, and that it is certainly wrong to brandish and use one. Why do they come to that conclusion and, interestingly, why does the opinion of the minority who do not come to that conclusion differ from the consensus? To a large degree, it is about factors beyond the direct control of central Government.

The right hon. Member for Tottenham talked about aspiration: what is smart and respected by peers, and what wins their admiration? Is the answer, in some communities—particularly, but not exclusively, among groups of young men—carrying a knife? Does that make someone seem smarter, tougher and more sophisticated than some of the boys and young men who do not carry a knife? Is that considered more worthy of admiration than being good at sport, for example? In a way, sport is a slightly lazy default object of admiration, so why is it not about being good at playing a musical instrument or speaking a foreign language, or helping disabled children’s groups in the community? Why are those characteristics, which are much harder to attain and require sustained application, not regarded as being as worthy of peer admiration as something as simple yet mindless as carrying a knife? That interesting fundamental question goes beyond what we can legislate on.

The right hon. Member for Tottenham also talked about parenting, and I pay tribute to the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions; we are in the same Government, but not the same party. Members might have different views about the ideas he puts forward on behalf of the Government, but he is grasping the nettle tightly and showing an obvious personal interest in trying to get to the root causes of social failure in our country, rather than paying people to be out of sight and out of mind. Intergenerational social failure can have the devastating consequences of not only violent crime, but the waste of time, effort, talent and ambition by those squandering their lives doing nothing much in particular.

What is the role for parents and role models? The right hon. Gentleman made an interesting observation about the shortage of male primary school teachers. Socially, my constituency is in many ways different from his, but it is striking that we can go to a small to medium-sized primary school there and see no male teachers at all. Boys with a lot of energy—good boys with nothing wrong with them, but with a lot of energy to work out of their system—are placed in settings that may sometimes be excessively feminine for their requirements. They cannot grow up in the way that they might have done if they had male role models to look up to. I am not talking about superstars on TV, although they can be role models, but about ordinary older boys and men in communities whose influence such boys could be exposed to in a positive way.

Having talked about things for which the Government are not directly responsible, it is important for me, as the Minister, also to discuss things for which the Government are directly responsible. It is important that we have this opportunity to discuss knife crime. It is worth saying that knife crime is wholly unacceptable and has devastating consequences for our communities, as we have heard this afternoon. Tackling it is a key priority for the Government, but we know that there are no quick fixes or magic bullets to tackle knife crime and violence. If we could pass a law to solve the problem, we would do so, but it is not as straightforward as that. We need long-term, evidence-based solutions to get a proper grip on the problems, and that needs concerted effort across a wide range of areas.

We believe that cautions are being used excessively for possession of a knife, which was a point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Clacton. The Prime Minister announced a review of knife sentencing on 22 October. We want to ensure that such offences are dealt with appropriately, which is why we are working with colleagues from across the criminal justice system to review the punishments available for carrying a knife. The Association of Chief Police Officers has also revised its guidance on the investigation, cautioning and charging of knife crime offences. The guidance states clearly that there is an expectation to charge all those who illegally carry and use knives. The right hon. Member for Delyn touched on whether there is a gap between what the House expects to happen and what happens in practice. I acknowledge that there is a gap, and we are looking at ways in which it can be filled.

Knife crime, like any form of violence, cannot be tackled in isolation. We need every partnership agency to engage to solve the problem. It is about not only the police and the courts ensuring that they take knife crime seriously, but many other organisations, such as the health service and schools. The right hon. Member for Tottenham mentioned care homes and institutions, which look after children in the most severe disadvantage when the state has taken responsibility for their upbringing. There are also voluntary services, and I have already touched upon communities.

Tackling knife crime is also about parents taking responsibility. It is worth making the point that most parents do take responsibility, but if a parent has a teenage child—probably a son—out at night after dark, which may be a particular problem at this time of year, do they know where that child is? It is always difficult with teenagers, but there is a rightful expectation that parents treat 13, 14, 15 and 16-year-olds as 13, 14, 15 and 16-year-olds. They are not fully-fledged adults. They need guidance and supervision, and parents have a responsibility to help to provide that supervision.

Of course, the overwhelming majority of citizens are law-abiding and live responsible lives. Although this may go against the overall tone of the debate, I want to say that there is some cause for encouragement. Individual victims and their families are of course devastated by such crimes, and serious problems exist, but there are also reasons to believe that the overall picture is not as overwhelmingly bleak as people listening to the debate might imagine.

According to official statistics, the number of offences involving knives and sharp instruments has fallen by 9% in the past year. In 2011-12, the police recorded 30,999 serious violent crimes involving a knife, which represented a reduction. Before hon. Members try to intervene, I acknowledge that that is 31,000 very serious incidents with potentially devastating consequences, but it is worth pointing out that that is slightly fewer such incidents than in the preceding year. I hope that groups—whether officials in the Home Office who are trying to devise more effective policy, or people working for youth or community organisations in hon. Members’ constituencies—feel that what they do makes a difference and that they do not have to bow to a counsel of despair.

[Sir Bob Russell]

I hope that the Minister is right that knife crime has reached a high water point and is in decline. I do not expect him to have this information with him, but it would be interesting to draw some comparisons with the figure from 10 years ago.

[Mr Browne]

My hon. Friend is right that, regrettably, I do not have the figure for 10 years ago. The inference behind his question is that if we have seen a substantial rise and perhaps some encouraging signs that this is beginning to subside, we must also recognise that, until it has subsided to its earlier level—and ideally lower still—there will be a lot more work to do. I would not for one moment wish to suggest otherwise.

[Mr Carswell]

I was pleased to hear the Minister say that the Government are in favour not of cautioning, but of a default rule towards prosecution. What fiat does the Home Office have to change that approach, or is it for police and crime commissioners to decide?

[Mr Browne]

I will come on to that. As I have said, I have spoken about several areas that are not the direct responsibility of the Government, and I want to reach those that are more in my area of ministerial responsibility.

[Mr Hanson]

The figure that the Minister cites is welcome but, perhaps after the debate, I would welcome a breakdown of juvenile, domestic violence and adult crimes. The debate has focused on juvenile crime, but not on domestic violence and adult crime, which are equally important. Will the Minister reflect on that outside the Chamber?

[Mr Browne]

The right hon. Gentleman makes a good point about the disaggregation of statistics. We are talking about a crime that causes people huge concern. Even those who have never been or known victims fear the seemingly random and devastating nature of the crime. I take that very seriously, and we will certainly look at the disaggregated statistics to see where we can make further improvements.

In the time remaining, I want to talk about police and crime commissioners, legal changes and wider Government policy, but I will start by addressing gangs and youth violence, because much knife crime happens in that context. Young people who are involved in gangs are more likely to engage in criminal behaviour generally and to carry a weapon. We cannot look at knife crime, gangs and gun crime in isolation, which was a point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Colchester.

As part of our programme on ending gang and youth violence, we have provided funding and support to the 29 areas that have been identified as having the most significant gang and youth violence problems. I acknowledge that other areas have problems, but we are targeting Government attention on those where the problem is greatest. The Home Office has reprioritised £10 million of funding for this financial year to support those areas.

The new programme builds on work that is already under way, including the communities against guns, gangs and knives programme. As the right hon. Member for Delyn mentioned, that programme has directed an additional £3.75 million over two years to three police forces—in London, Greater Manchester and the west midlands—in which there is disproportionately more gang crime and associated violent crime, including with knives.

The right hon. Gentleman referred to meeting the police and crime commissioners. I am pleased to inform him that all of them from England and Wales will meet throughout Monday at the Home Office with the Home Secretary and other Ministers, including me. We will certainly take the opportunity to talk to them about some of the good ideas and best practice that we have tried to develop as a Government or that has been developed in other parts of the country. That will equip them to implement good ideas from elsewhere, while also formulating their own.

As well as preventing young people from getting involved in violence and gang activity, action must be taken against those who break the law. As the law stands, carrying a knife in a public place is already an offence with a maximum penalty of four years. As the right hon. Gentleman said, that change was introduced a few years ago. As part of the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Act 2012, the Government have strengthened the law on the possession of knives by creating the new offence of carrying a knife or offensive weapon in a public place or school when the weapon is used to threaten or endanger others. There is clearly a distinction between someone carrying a weapon who claims that it is for legitimate purposes, and someone brandishing one in a way that is intended to threaten or intimidate.

[Nick de Bois (Enfield North) (Con)]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mr Browne]

I shall, once I have finished this short section of my speech.

That offence attracts a minimum mandatory sentence of six months for over-18s and a minimum four-month detention and training order for 16 and 17-year-olds. Those sentences are attracted not by stabbing someone with a knife, but by displaying one in a prominent way. By building on the existing tough knife crime laws in the United Kingdom, that provides a clear message to those who possess a knife to threaten and endanger others that they can expect to face imprisonment. The offences will come into force on 3 December—next week.

[Sir Bob Russell]

Are those tariffs the same as those for someone carrying a gun?

[Mr Browne]

I do not have that information available. I think that the policy has been developed to deal with the specific problem of knife crime.

Hon. Members talked about stop-and-search. There have been calls for the police to carry out more stop-and-search. The police do an important job—obviously, they are an important part of the equation—including by having a focus on preventing, deterring and combating violent crime or the use of knives. Stop-and-search is a vital part of a police officer’s role in deterring and combating crime, but the Government’s opinion is that it is important that stop-and-search is used in a targeted and intelligence-led way, with the support of communities, because that is how it is most likely to have the desired effect of protecting the public. The children of people from all backgrounds can be the victims of violent crime, and it is in the interests of people across society that we help the police to combat that.

I have talked about the importance of tackling gangs in relation to knife crime, and I now turn to the wider society. Police and crime commissioners have an important role to play. My hon. Friend the Member for Clacton talked about not having a postcode lottery. I think that he mentioned a precise, postcode-targeted—

[Mr Carswell]

Postcode-specific.

[Mr Browne]

A postcode-specific approach. We do not want police and crime commissioners to be only civil servants who implement Government policy in their force area; we want them to think of themselves as leaders in their force area. I want police and crime commissioners to learn from others who seem to be doing well and are tackling crime effectively in their force areas. I want them to work with groups that might not be seen as particularly fashionable, including the Churches and youth organisations such as cadets and scouts.

Many young people feel as though they are big and tough when they are brandishing a knife, but only five years before, in some cases, they were little boys. For some of them, being given an opportunity to have a structure or support network in their early and more formative years can be very beneficial. I hope that, by giving children from different backgrounds the opportunity to come together and learn from one another, the Government’s national citizenship programme will also make a contribution.

In conclusion, I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Clacton on securing the debate and express the sympathy of the whole Government for the terrible circumstances that have led to our having this discussion.

Oral Answers to Questions

Jeremy Browne Excerpts

Monday 19th November 2012 Commons Chamber

[Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab)]

3. What recent assessment she has made of the Government’s drugs strategy; and if she will make a statement.

[The Minister of State, Home Department (Mr Jeremy Browne)]

The Government published an assessment of the drug strategy in May 2012. We are making good progress. Drug use remains at its lowest since measurement began in 1996. We have the highest numbers completing treatment, and the drug sector is refocusing its approach to move beyond treatment and achieve recovery.

[Paul Flynn]

The Welsh police unit involved in Operation Tarian reports that the effect of a ban on mephedrone has been to double its use in Wales. Will the Minister bear that in mind when considering a ban on the drug khat, which would almost certainly lead to an increase in use and drive a wedge between the police and the Yemeni and Somali populations?

[Mr Browne]

We are always open to strong evidence-based research on how to reduce the harm from drugs, but it is worth bringing to the House’s attention the fact that existing illegal drugs such as heroin and crack cocaine have seen a dramatic fall in their use, while there has been quite a big increase in legal drug consumption. It is not automatically the case that making something legal leads to a reduction in its consumption.

[Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con)]

Given that the number of legal highs detected in Europe has more than doubled since 2009, what action is the Government taking against those who are supplying these drugs?

[Mr Browne]

My hon. Friend is right to draw the House’s attention to this increasing problem, which has been raised with me at the constituency level as being a serious reason to be alarmed. We are obviously making sure that the law is adjusted to take account of the threat to society, but it is a difficult field because it is, of course, evolving very quickly. We need to make sure that we take the necessary measures to protect society. Just because a drug is legal, does not necessarily mean that it is not harmful, especially if taken in the wrong way, so members of the public need to be mindful that this is a potentially hazardous area.

[Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)]

The Government promised swift action against legal highs and official figures show that 57 legal highs have hit the UK market just this year—nearly two a week—yet there has been only one temporary banning order in two years. These dangerous substances are killing people, so when will the Government act to protect young people in particular with timely bans and to ensure that the drug strategy promise of good-quality drugs education is delivered in our classrooms?

[Mr Browne]

On the hon. Lady’s second point, I think there is an awareness and knowledge, particularly among young people, of the harms that drugs can cause. I see that among 11 to 15-year-olds there has been a quite marked decline in drug consumption over the periods for which surveys have been carried out. Of course legal highs are a new threat—not just to young people, but to the population as a whole—which is why we have to consider how best to respond to them. This is an increasing threat, but I repeat the point that overall, drug consumption in this country is falling.

[Mr Marcus Jones (Nuneaton) (Con)]

4. What steps her Department is taking to reform the student visa system; and if she will make a statement.

--- Later in debate ---

[Stuart Andrew (Pudsey) (Con)]

12. What progress her Department has made in reducing levels of alcohol-related antisocial behaviour.

[The Minister of State, Home Department (Mr Jeremy Browne)]

Last month, the Government commenced new powers to help local authorities and the police tackle alcohol-related crime and disorder. They can now impose early-morning alcohol restriction orders and charge a late-night levy on pubs and clubs to go towards the costs of policing the late-night economy. We have already reformed alcohol licensing laws. We will also give front-line professionals faster, more effective powers to protect the public from antisocial behaviour.

[Stuart Andrew]

Alcohol-related antisocial behaviour can be a blight on some of our towns and cities and is particularly distressing for victims. Will my hon. Friend urge the newly elected PCCs to work with local authorities to implement this welcome new tool?

[Mr Browne]

I recognise the problem identified by my hon. Friend and I urge all PCCs who were elected last week to work in partnership with local authorities, the police and others to use the new powers that we have given them to enhance the safety of the communities they represent.

[Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)]

In Wrexham CCTV has played an important role in reducing alcohol-related antisocial behaviour. Is it the Government’s policy to reduce the number of CCTV cameras?

[Mr Browne]

In my constituency, Taunton Deane, CCTV plays a useful role in protecting the public as well. The Government’s policy is that CCTV can play an important role in community safety and reducing crime, but it is not the same as Labour’s position, which is that the more CCTV cameras there are, the better the society we live in. We think these things have to be proportionate. CCTV has a role to play but it is not as big a role as the hon. Gentleman perhaps feels.

[Paul Goggins (Wythenshawe and Sale East) (Lab)]

13. When she plans to meet the police and crime commissioner for Greater Manchester.

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[Simon Danczuk (Rochdale) (Lab)]

T2. Following my comments in the House about Cyril Smith’s abuse of boys, I understand that the Crown Prosecution Service has now located investigation files relating to Smith from the 1960s. Could the Home Secretary now look at whether it is true that the then Director of Public Prosecutions received a second opinion recommending that Smith be prosecuted; why he concluded that it was not in the public interest; what role, if any, the security services played; and how the Government intend to get to the bottom of what several former police officers are now referring to as a cover-up?

[The Minister of State, Home Department (Mr Jeremy Browne)]

All I can say to the hon. Gentleman is that if members of the public have concerns that they wish to report, they should report them to the police, and if they have concerns about the police, they should report them to the Independent Police Complaints Commission. Obviously, we would expect those authorities to act on the information provided to them.

[Mr Adrian Sanders (Torbay) (LD)]

T3. Some of my constituents have had their applications for indefinite leave to remain returned after months of waiting, only to find that there was an error in their payment details. Why is there a separate verification process for payment details? Why not have one process? That would solve the problem of people going back to the beginning of the queue simply because of an error that is not always of their making?

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[Stuart Andrew (Pudsey) (Con)]

T4. Metal theft has been a huge problem for some community groups and churches in the Pudsey constituency. It costs a great deal of money and is a problem throughout the country. Does my hon. Friend the Minister welcome the passage through the House of the Scrap Metal Dealers Bill and share my belief that we must reform the industry in order to support legitimate dealers and make it much harder for those who provide a market for stolen metal?

[Mr Jeremy Browne]

I strongly agree with my hon. Friend. Crimes such as taking lead from church roofs or stripping plaques from war memorials cause offence to Members of all parties. The Government are already taking action. On 3 December, new measures will come into force to better regulate the scrap metal industry. My hon. Friend has rightly drawn the House’s attention to the private Member’s Bill that received its Third Reading last week. We are also taking additional actions in concert with the Bill’s promoter, my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon South (Richard Ottaway), to further regulate this important industry and make sure that it does not contain criminal behaviour.

[Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab)]

T6. I was interested in the answers on student visas because a week ago on Saturday, I had a meeting at Coventry university with a Minister from Oman who takes an interest in science and technology and who wants to do business with the university. The issues raised were the delay in getting student visas, which seems to be putting people off, and the cost for students. What will the Government do about that? It is no good making excuses.

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[Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con)]

T8. The net receipts under the Proceeds of Crime Act 2002 were £165 million last year. I appreciate that a fair chunk of that money is reinvested in local crime-fighting initiatives, but will the ministerial team look at the percentage that is allocated to local community projects, so that more groups like the Thornton Lodge action group can be successful in their bids?

[Mr Jeremy Browne]

Yes, I can give that undertaking. A small amount of the money is made available to community groups. My hon. Friend makes a valid point about whether that percentage could be higher and we will look at how that might be achieved.

[Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)]

It is no good Ministers lecturing police and crime commissioners on the merits of forces sharing costs in procurement when they could have saved the public purse £25 million by combining the PCC elections with other local elections. Why did Ministers ignore the calls from Opposition Members to combine the elections with next year’s county council elections?

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[Andrea Leadsom (South Northamptonshire) (Con)]

Thank you, Mr Speaker. I have been complaining to a national housing association for the past two years on behalf of a small group of constituents who are suffering at the hands of a small group of social tenants things such as homophobic attacks, domestic violence on the street and drug dealing in the streets. The housing association has done nothing about it. What more can we do to force housing associations to take their responsibilities more seriously and allow other people to live their lives quietly?

[Mr Jeremy Browne]

The housing association and, indeed, the local authority and the local police force should take my hon. Friend’s complaints and those of the residents in her area more seriously. I urge her to ensure that they work effectively on behalf of her constituents. If she feels that that is not being done, she may wish to raise the matter with the new police and crime commissioner.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—