Scotland Bill

Alistair Carmichael Excerpts

Monday 8th June 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mr Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD)]

It is a pleasure to follow three exceptionally fine maiden speeches. As convention demands, I should like to say a few words about them before the hon. Member for South Leicestershire (Alberto Costa) leaves his place. As one former Scottish solicitor to another, I welcome him to the House. Maiden speeches always teach us something new that we did not know about a certain part of the world before. I confess that I always thought the world’s longest runway was at Machrihanish, but I say that only because the hon. Gentleman went on to give an impressive list of community names—villages and towns within his constituency. I am sure that the sound we might have heard in the background was the silent sobbing of Hansard writers trying to get the full list from him. He will soon learn, I have no doubt, that such lists bring a swift note from the Hansard writers.

The hon. Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton West (Margaret Ferrier) has obviously already learned one important thing about the House of Commons—that if one wants to get on here, one has to keep in with the Doorkeepers. She, too, delivered her first speech with passion and humour. Knowing the part of the world she represents, as I do, I have no doubt that she will need both these qualities as she represents her constituents in the years ahead.

Finally, we heard from the hon. Member for Eddisbury (Antoinette Sandbach), who spoke first of all for her farming constituents. As a farmer’s son representing a farming constituency myself, I am pretty sure that we will all recognise elements of common concerns shared by her part of the world and mine. I was particularly impressed by the way in which she brought in her own wider life experience. She gave a thoughtful maiden speech, and she will always be listened to in this House.

Let me add my welcome for this Bill on Second Reading tonight. It is not yet fully nine months since the Smith commission was established. In that time, there have been a series of deadlines which, as the Secretary of State indicated, have all been met or exceeded and today’s is just one of the long line. It is worth remembering that we had a report—the heads of agreement—from Lord Smith and his commissioners by the end of November. There was then the publication of draft clauses and the Command Paper by the end of January. Then there was a commitment in all three manifestos to bring forward legislation in the first Queen’s Speech and an early introduction of the Bill. I commend the Government for having brought it forward today, and I wish it a swift passage.

This Bill has already been the subject of some substantial and detailed scrutiny. Other hon. Members have spoken about the report of the Scottish Parliament special committee on the extra powers to the Scottish Parliament, and professional bodies such as the Law Society of Scotland have also given the Bill careful consideration. The nine-month gestation process in the context of these discussions has been undertaken at breakneck speed. If we consider how long it took us to get through the constitutional convention in the 1990s, or the time taken in the Calman commission and then in bringing forward the Scotland Bill which became the Scotland Act 2012, we can understand that to have got to this point within nine months is a considerable achievement. I pay tribute to the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State and his officials in the Scotland Office for the work they have done.

As a general principle, I would rather have things right than quick, but we have to appreciate that this is one of those occasions when we are going to have to have both. To do that requires of us all a particular effort and for us all to proceed in good faith and with goodwill on all sides. I hope the debate we have in the coming weeks will allow the widest possible range of opinions that reflect the issues discussed in the referendum and general election campaigns in Scotland. As the hon. Member for Edinburgh South (Ian Murray) said from the Opposition Dispatch Box, the SNP’s very significant achievement in returning 56 of the 59 MPs must be recognised and I hope they will bring forward amendments that reflect full fiscal autonomy or responsibility—whatever term they choose to employ—and they will tell us the detail of what they mean by the medium term.

The hon. Member for Edinburgh East (Tommy Sheppard) said in an intervention that in the course of the election campaign his party’s policy had been the subject of grotesque caricature. If that is the case, as an elected representative he now has the opportunity in this place to put that right, and I hope he and his colleagues will introduce amendments so we can have a proper debate. My objection to full fiscal autonomy remains that, in my view, it constitutes effectively independence by the back door, and therefore it does not respect the decision we reached as a nation last September.

The words of caution I give tonight are not directed only at the SNP. They extend to those in the Labour and Conservative parties who would seek to use this debate as some sort of bidding war between those on different sides of the border. I am short of time tonight but this is my word of caution: remember always that within this great family of nations that is the United Kingdom it is possible to break the Union from either side of the border. We have always proceeded on the basis that we are a family where we give in and take out in different ways at different times. I hope the Bill we have tonight will be the next stage in the evolution of that family, and I look forward to taking part in its consideration in the weeks to come.

Oral Answers to Questions

Alistair Carmichael Excerpts

Wednesday 25th February 2015 Commons Chamber

[Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)]

1. What recent discussions he has had with the First Minister on the supply of energy in Scotland; and if he will make a statement.

[The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr Alistair Carmichael)]

I have regular discussions with colleagues on issues affecting the energy sector in Scotland, including with the Scottish Government on energy supply issues.

[Miss McIntosh]

People in north Yorkshire have noted with great interest that the Scottish Government have banned fracking for the moment. Will my right hon. Friend update the House on progress towards a debate on energy supply not only for Scotland, but for the whole of the United Kingdom?

[Mr Carmichael]

My hon. Friend’s key words were “for the moment”. The Scottish Government have come forward with a moratorium, and I am sure that we shall all watch the debate with keen interest. I remind her and the House that we removed the Scottish provisions from the Infrastructure Bill, and that the power to license onshore exploration for oil and gas will be devolved under the Scotland Act that will come after the next election.

[Mr Brian H. Donohoe (Central Ayrshire) (Lab)]

When the Secretary of State meets the First Minister, will he get information—this is not in the public arena—on how much compensation is being paid to wind farms in Scotland from his and my electricity bills as a consequence of the fact that they are, in my view, inefficient?

[Mr Carmichael]

I am sure that if the hon. Gentleman seeks that information from my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change, it will be forthcoming.

[Mr Charles Kennedy (Ross, Skye and Lochaber) (LD)]

I am sure that the Secretary of State, as a highlands and islands MP, will share the sense of anger and injustice at SSE’s 2p surcharge on electricity costs, given that it made a profit of £1.5 billion last year. Will he do everything possible at the UK level to ameliorate this state of affairs, not least by endorsing the excellent campaign by The Press and Journal?

[Mr Carmichael]

I rarely have any difficulty in endorsing a campaign run by The Press and Journal. The question of the price being paid by electricity consumers across the highlands and islands is complex, but I know that we all benefit from being part of the wider UK energy market.

[Angus Robertson (Moray) (SNP)]

Scottish generators, including Longannet, provide 12% of the electricity going into the British network, but pay 35% of the transmission charges. The Secretary of State has been in government for five years. What has he done to end that discrimination?

[Mr Carmichael]

The hon. Gentleman is well aware that transmission charging is the responsibility of Ofgem, the energy market regulator. He will also be aware of the work that Ofgem has been doing with other parts of the energy industry in relation to Project TransmiT.

[Angus Robertson]

Last week, the First Minister wrote to the Prime Minister about this very subject, asking

“the UK Government to initiate a dedicated capacity assessment for Scotland, informed by stakeholder views, and take steps to transfer to the Scottish Parliament the authority to set our own national reliability standard for electricity.”

Having failed to end the discriminatory transmission charges, will the UK Government agree to those reasonable suggestions?

[Mr Carmichael]

The hon. Gentleman and the First Minister must both be aware that National Grid has a constant process of reviewing energy supply. The system operators in Scotland have stress-tested 140 scenarios in which Longannet and other Scottish fossil fuel generators were closed, and National Grid has the tools to keep the lights on in every one of those scenarios, including by being resilient against one-in-600-year risks. Those are the facts, and they are preferable to the sort of scaremongering that we hear from the nationalists.

[Mr Speaker]

We are now better informed, I am sure.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

But is the Secretary of State satisfied that the capacity of the electricity interconnector between Scotland and England is sufficient and will not act as a brake on competition in the supply and generating markets?

[Mr Carmichael]

That is exactly the kind of work that is within the ambit of National Grid and Ofgem.

[Sandra Osborne (Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock) (Lab)]

I have raised many times the devastation caused by abandoned coal mines in my constituency. The Secretary of State will be aware of the proposal for an exemption from carbon price support, which would greatly help their restoration and create 1,000 jobs. Can we expect good news on this in the Budget, and does he agree that the Scottish Government should step up to the plate with some of their £500 million surplus to help the restoration?

[Mr Carmichael]

First, I am happy to pay tribute to the hon. Lady, who has been a doughty fighter for her constituents’ interests in this regard. As for what will be in the Budget, I am afraid that, like the rest of us, she will have to wait and see, although I can assure her that my Department remains engaged on this issue. We continue to work closely with the Scottish Government on their joint taskforce, which will next meet in March. My right hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland will represent the UK Government on that occasion.

[Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con)]

2. What assessment he has made of the potential effect on cross-border trade between the north of England and the border region of Scotland of the proposals of the Smith commission.

[The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr Alistair Carmichael)]

As a result of the clear no vote in the referendum, there remain no barriers to trade across the whole of the UK. Nothing in the draft clauses changes that.

[Guy Opperman]

Does the Secretary of State agree that all political parties need to come together to ensure that airports such as Newcastle in the north-east have air passenger duty support so that they are not unfairly disadvantaged by the proposals of the Smith commission?

[Mr Carmichael]

I assure my hon. Friend that the basic principle of the Smith commission proposals is that there should be no detriment to any part of the UK—that was very much what the people of Scotland voted for on 18 September. Of course, it remains to be seen what will happen to levels of APD, once it is devolved, but he should take comfort from the fact that the principle is already well established that variable rates within the UK are possible, and he would be well advised to speak to the Chancellor of the Exchequer in that regard.

[Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)]

Had the Smith commission been faithful to the famous vow and had the Better Together parties not watered down the tepid Smith commission, does the Secretary of State think that the benefits to the north of England, as well as to Scotland, would have been greater?

[Mr Carmichael]

I know that it hurts the hon. Gentleman and causes him genuine pain, but the truth of the matter—he will have to accept this sooner or later, so he might as well get on and accept it now—is that the Smith commission has delivered on the vow. That was why his party signed up to it, even if, having done so, the Scottish National party could not run away from its commitments fast enough.

[Michael Moore (Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk) (LD)]

The single market of the United Kingdom is vital to the fish processors and agricultural producers of Berwickshire, the coat hanger manufacturers of Jedburgh and the world-class knitwear manufacturers of Hawick, among others, so does my right hon. Friend agree that one of the major achievements of the Smith commission was to bring more powers to Scotland, but preserve that single market?

[Mr Carmichael]

Yes, absolutely. I particularly enjoyed joining my right hon. Friend recently in his constituency and learning from him about not only the challenges but the opportunities facing the knitwear industry. I know that that industry is of great importance to the economy in his area, and he has been a remarkable champion of it over the years.

[Mr Russell Brown (Dumfries and Galloway) (Lab)]

There is obvious eagerness within local authorities in the south of Scotland to have closer trade links with their counterparts in the north of England, as evidence from the work of the Scottish Affairs Committee suggests. Does the Secretary of State intend to engage with the Scottish Government to ensure that the borderland areas are able to exploit their full potential?

[Mr Carmichael]

Indeed. I am well aware of the work of the borderlands initiative and am more than happy to engage with it in any way it considers would be helpful. That has been very much the approach that I have taken in dealing with Scotland’s island communities—the Western Isles, Orkney and Shetland—on their “Our Islands Our Future” campaign. I suggest that this Government’s willingness to hand power back to communities in Scotland bears very favourable contrast with the SNP Government in Edinburgh, who seem determined to centralise everything.

[Jim Sheridan (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) (Lab)]

3. What discussions he has had with the Scottish Government on practical steps to encourage employers to pay the living wage.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dame Anne McGuire (Stirling) (Lab)]

4. What recent discussions he has had with Ministers of the Scottish Government on property taxes in Scotland.

[The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr Alistair Carmichael)]

As part of the Scotland Act 2012 implementation process, UK Government Ministers have been in contact with Scottish Government Ministers to discuss devolved taxes, including property taxes, since the beginning of this year.

[Dame Anne McGuire]

May I encourage the Secretary of State to be a little more forthcoming and share with the House his view on whether Revenue Scotland is ready for the transfer of property taxes in April?

[Mr Carmichael]

The right hon. Lady will understand my hesitation when I say that we have to take the Scottish Government at their word. They assure us that they are ready and we have done everything within our power to assist them. If it should transpire that there are further difficulties that have not yet been foreseen or disclosed, we will do everything that we can to ensure that the system operates.

[Fiona O'Donnell (East Lothian) (Lab)]

Does the Secretary of State see the SNP Government’s U-turn on the land and buildings transaction tax as a cause for concern or the sincerest form of flattery—#TartanTories?

[Mr Carmichael]

I think that is quite remarkable. The whole point of devolution is to allow the Scottish Government to do things differently. We devolved stamp duty land tax under the 2012 Act. They came forward with something that was different until this Government introduced a new system, when before we knew it they had changed to follow what was happening in the rest of the United Kingdom.

[Mr Speaker]

Gordon Henderson—not here.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con)]

7. What public consultation his Department is carrying out in Scotland on the draft clauses published following the recommendations of the Smith commission.

[The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr Alistair Carmichael)]

The Scotland Office is holding a series of events across Scotland to enable stakeholders to provide feedback on the draft clauses and how the new powers might be used. I can announce to the House today that the Government will now begin a public information campaign to enable people in Scotland to learn more about the devolution settlement and how it is changing. [Interruption.] This campaign will use social media, local media and an information booklet for every house in Scotland. [Interruption.]

[Mr Speaker]

Order. There is a lot of noise in the Chamber. The House and perhaps the nation should hear Mr Christopher Chope.

[Mr Chope]

The nation would be interested to know that draft clause 1 has been widely condemned as legally vacuous. What is the Secretary of State going to do to ensure that the people of Scotland realise that it is legally vacuous and that if they support it, they will be supporting a meaningless constitutional proposal?

[Mr Carmichael]

I absolutely refute that suggestion and the hon. Gentleman’s characterisation of that analysis as being widespread.

[Michael Connarty (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (Lab)]

13. Has the Secretary of State specifically discussed the question of varying tax bands under the Smith agreement, which seems a marvellous opportunity for Scotland to decide how it treats people with differing levels of income? It might be different from the way they are treated in the rest of the UK.

[Mr Carmichael]

The hon. Gentleman is right and he takes the debate in a direction in which it has to go. Surely the time has come when we should no longer be discussing where powers lie, but discussing what can be done with the substantial powers that the third most powerful devolved legislature anywhere in the world will have as a result of these proposals.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Mr Alan Reid (Argyll and Bute) (LD)]

Thank you, Mr Speaker. The out of touch House of Lords Constitution Committee has said that not enough thought has been given to the impact of giving 16 and 17-year-olds the vote. I hope the Government will reject this recommendation and give 16 and 17-year-olds the right to have their say on who represents them in the Scottish Parliament.

[Mr Carmichael]

I confess that I always hold their lordships’ views in very high regard, but they would not normally be the first port of call that I would make when I was looking for advice either on democratic elections or on young people. The order will be before their lordships’ House tomorrow night. I am confident that it will be passed, as it was passed in this House, without Division.

[Mr Tom Clarke (Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill) (Lab)]

Given the powers that the Scottish Government already have, has the Secretary of State ever received an apology from them for their failure to spend £34 million on disabled children and their families and instead using it for the gimmick of keeping council tax static?

[Mr Carmichael]

There are many, many things for which the Scottish Government should apologise and I suspect that in the event that these apologies ever start coming, the right hon. Gentleman and I will not be at the top of the list to receive them. He is right, though, to point out that the freeze on council tax has caused real difficulties for many local authorities in Scotland, which will be outraged to see the size of the Scottish Government’s underspend this year.

[Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD)]

8. What discussions he has had with Scottish Government Ministers on the co-ordination of programmes to dual the A1.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Andrew Turner (Isle of Wight) (Con)]

10. What discussions he has had with his ministerial colleagues on the potential implications for Scotland of English votes for English laws.

[The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr Alistair Carmichael)]

There is clear consensus that change is needed to address the anomalies in our constitutional arrangements, but no consensus on what form this change should take. The solution must be fair to all parts of the United Kingdom and strengthen the links between our family of nations so recently reaffirmed in the referendum in Scotland.

[Mr Turner]

I thank the Minister for that reply. Does he agree that most Scots, unlike Labour Members, recognise the unfairness of their MPs at Westminster intervening to affect English schools, English health and English councils now that those matters have been devolved from England to Scotland?

[Mr Carmichael]

I think I have already acknowledged that there are substantial anomalies within our constitutional arrangements. I caution the hon. Gentleman, however, about being too enthusiastic about replacing these anomalies with ones that could be even bigger.

The Prime Minister was asked—

Supplementary Estimate 2014-15

Alistair Carmichael Excerpts

Monday 9th February 2015 Written Statements

[The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr Alistair Carmichael)]

Subject to parliamentary approval of the necessary supplementary estimate the Scottish Government’s DEL net of depreciation and impairments will be increased by £598,482,000 from £28,708,902,000 to £29,307,384,000. Within the total DEL change, the impact on resources and capital is set out in the following table:

Scottish Representation in the Union

Alistair Carmichael Excerpts

Wednesday 4th February 2015 Commons Chamber

[The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr Alistair Carmichael)]

May I congratulate the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown) on securing this evening’s debate? It is very good to see the House so well attended and particularly animated, which is not always the case in our Adjournment debates.

At the start of his speech, the right hon. Gentleman said one thing with which nobody could take exception, which was that this is a time for us, through the work of the House, to bring unity to our four nations. For those of us who represent Scottish constituents at Westminster, that was very much the view expressed by the people of Scotland in a quite remarkable democratic exercise on 18 September. We would do well at all times to remember that.

The right hon. Gentleman has done us a service by bringing this issue to the House tonight. The issue is entirely legitimate, and nothing will work less to the advantage of the Union than seeking in any way to deny that legitimacy or simply seeking to avoid it. It is absolutely right that all the political parties should look to address the issue, as indeed they are doing.

As we look across the political landscape and address the various options available, it is possible to conclude only one thing—that there is no easy answer and absolutely no quick fix. If we try to achieve an easy answer or a quick fix, we run a very real risk of replacing the obvious and patent anomalies of the current constitutional settlement with new ones, which would place more pressure on the hinges of our United Kingdom at a time when those who would break it up remain vigilant for a chance to do so.

[Sir William Cash]

Will the Secretary of State give way?

[Mr Carmichael]

If I may make a little progress, I will give way to my hon. Friend in a minute.

Yesterday, my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House laid out the proposals of the Conservative party. It is a matter of record that my party disagrees with that approach. Nor is it much of a secret that there is a range of views within the Conservative party, from those who believe that this issue is best left alone to those who want a more radical solution. There is not much consensus in that party, let alone between the parties in this House. However, there is a broad consensus here about keeping together our family of nations. That requires that this issue be considered carefully with an eye to a lasting settlement, not a short-sighted or short-term partisan advantage.

[Sir William Cash]

Does the Secretary of State agree that the proposals that were agreed to tentatively by the Conservative party yesterday will not necessarily be the solution, because the real problem is that the new Parnell from Scotland, in the form of Mr Alex Salmond, will come down and use any opportunity relentlessly and ruthlessly to create as much chaos as possible, and thereby disrupt the United Kingdom?

[Mr Carmichael]

The hon. Gentleman has been in the House long enough to know that Alex Salmond was here for many years and often sought to do exactly that. However, in terms of achievement, there was not a great deal to show for his time here. I therefore caution my hon. Friend about pre-judging the outcome of the election on 7 May and what the consequences of that outcome might be.

My party has always been clear that any parliamentary vote involving English or English and Welsh MPs should be held only on the basis of a proportionate vote share from the previous election. Devolution to the constituent nations of our United Kingdom has always taken place on that basis, and for good reason. It would be wholly unjust effectively to devolve power to England or England and Wales in a way that distorted democratic opinion and passed unfair advantage to any party.

The logical and lasting solution to this conundrum, in the view of my party, is the creation of a federal United Kingdom, in which England as a whole or in its constituent parts devolves powers from Westminster and, by extension, answers the West Lothian question. I accept, however, that we may be some way from that solution.

The options can and should be considered by a constitutional convention, as the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath indicated. The convention should be empowered to look at all the anomalies and difficulties that we face. In that way, we can forge a consensus and build lasting solutions that strengthen the bonds of our United Kingdom, rather than threaten to break them.

[Sir Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con)]

It is important in this debate that we learn more about the Liberal plans for the proportional representation of MPs. It seems, with respect, that they could end in a really bonkers situation. What would happen if the Green party got 5% of the votes but only one MP? Would the Green party lady walk through the Lobby representing 20 other colleagues? What would happen if the Labour party got 38% of the popular vote but 43% of MPs? How would it be worked out in practice?

[Mr Carmichael]

Those matters would, of course, have to be considered by the House before it countenanced a change to Standing Orders of the sort that I have outlined. The example about the Greens would have to be taken into account and it might determine the size of any such Committee. I say to my hon. Friend gently that this House has tackled many bigger conundrums and challenges than that, and we have shown ourselves to be equal to the task. Although his point is legitimate and thoughtful, I do not see it as a barrier to a change of the sort that my party favours.

It might be helpful to add a little context to the question of Scotland’s representation in the Union, so I will briefly remind the House of the recent constitutional events that brought us here. On 18 September, the people in Scotland voted to secure Scotland’s place in the United Kingdom and to keep the advantages of the UK pound, UK pensions, UK armed forces, and a strong UK voice in the world. They voted for the strength and security that the United Kingdom provides through our single domestic market, our social union, and our ability to pool and share risks. However, people in Scotland were also clear that they wanted change. They wanted a strengthened, more accountable Scottish Parliament, with more decisions that affect Scotland being made in Scotland. The United Kingdom Government made a commitment to delivering the vow made by the three party leaders—in respect of which the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath made such a decisive intervention—and to delivering further powers to the Scottish Parliament early after the next general election. Despite the ambitious time scale, all deadlines in the vow have been met.

Immediately following the independence referendum, the Prime Minister established the Smith commission as an independent body to convene cross-party talks on further powers for the Scottish Parliament. The heads of agreement were published before St Andrew’s day, in line with our commitment, and were welcomed by the UK Government. The next stage of our commitment was to publish draft legislation, setting out what the agreement would look like in law in advance of Burns night. Two weeks ago, ahead of schedule, the Government published the draft clauses with an accompanying Command Paper.

[Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP)]

The Secretary of State has got part of his history wrong, because since the vow there is now the vow plus that has been advocated by the Labour party. We are in a constant state of flux and constitutional change in Scotland. Where do the Government see it ending? We have the vow plus from Labour, but what is the view of the UK Government?

[Mr Carmichael]

I thought I was making a mistake in giving way, and I am afraid the hon. Gentleman’s question confirms that. His party did a brave thing in taking part in the Smith commission—for the first time ever, it was an historic moment to get all five parties from the Scottish Parliament around one table. He was part of that consensus; perhaps he did not like it and was one of those who put pressure on John Swinney and others to run away from the settlement that they had just signed up to.

Rather than coming up with such points, the hon. Gentleman would do better first to calm down and relax a little, and he could then tell the House what he and his party will do with the powers that will come to the Scottish Parliament as a result of the Smith commission. One thing he does not want to accept is that as a result of the Smith commission, Scotland will have the third most powerful devolved Parliament anywhere in the world. A tremendous amount of good can be done with the powers that will be given to the Scottish Parliament, and that is where the debate ought to be, rather than the constant whinge about vows or vows plus.

[Conor Burns (Bournemouth West) (Con)]

Will the Secretary of State give way?

[Mr Carmichael]

I am sorry but I am running out of time.

The Government are doing everything we can to enable 16 and 17-year-olds to vote in the 2016 Scottish Parliament elections, as recommended by Lord Smith, and hon. Members will know that on Monday I took an order through the House to deal with that very point.

A great deal more could—indeed will—be said on this subject between now and 7 May. That is absolutely right, because to build a consensus we must make this Parliament fit for the whole United Kingdom, and such debates will be necessary. I am therefore grateful to the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath for bringing the matter to the House this evening.

Question put and agreed to.

Constitutional Law

Alistair Carmichael Excerpts

Monday 2nd February 2015 Commons Chamber

[The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr Alistair Carmichael)]

I beg to move,

That the draft Scotland Act 1998 (Modification of Schedules 4 and 5 and Transfer of Functions to the Scottish Ministers etc.) Order 2015, which was laid before this House on 20 January, be approved.

On 18 September last year, the people of Scotland, including tens of thousands of 16 and 17-year-olds, voted in the Scottish independence referendum, and made the historic decision to remain a part of the United Kingdom. The participation of our young people in the vote was truly historic and inspirational to witness. We saw the young people who took part in the referendum in great numbers listen to the arguments, frequently ask the toughest questions, and make up their own minds in a mature and reasoned way. They showed that they were more than capable of being a part of Scottish democracy when they helped their country take the biggest decision we have faced for centuries.

Evidence suggests that, having listened to the arguments and participated in the debate, 16 and 17-year-olds voted in the same way as the population of Scotland as a whole—to maintain Scotland’s position in our family of nations. This is, of course, welcome in itself, but it also puts paid to the notion that those who are old enough to marry and have children are not old enough to weigh up the issues and decide how to cast a vote. It demonstrated the desire to be involved in an event that would shape the future of the country, and it demonstrated to us all that when people understand the issue before them, hear the arguments and know the facts, they want to use their democratic right to make a difference.

[Sandra Osborne (Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock) (Lab)]

I very much welcome the motion. Does the Secretary of State think it strange that we are saying that it is all right for 16-year-olds to vote in the referendum, but not in the general election? Surely if they are old enough to vote in one election, they are old enough to vote in every election.

[Mr Carmichael]

Indeed. We are dealing tonight, however, with the franchise for the Scottish Parliament and Scottish local authority elections. I was about to turn to that very point and say that there is no consensus in this Parliament at this time to allow 16 and 17-year-olds to vote in the UK general election. My view, however, is that there is every reason to believe that the tide has turned in favour of that outcome. When it comes to extending the franchise in this country, the liberal, progressive argument always wins in the end, and afterwards there is a consensus that it was the right thing to do.

[John Robertson (Glasgow North West) (Lab)]

The right hon. Gentleman is being generous in giving way. A few weeks ago I asked the Prime Minister the same question about votes for 16 and 17-year-olds, and he said that although he was inclined to keep the voting age at 18, he was looking forward to a vote. Perhaps the Secretary of State should have a word with him so that we can have that vote.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Carmichael]

We may indeed have that vote in time—who knows what business will come before the House, or by what route? However, to all intents and purposes it will not be practically possible to extend the franchise for the UK general election before May, so I think that the House would do better to devote its attention to scrutinising the order before us tonight, whatever sympathy I might have for the proposition that the hon. Gentleman is seeking to advance.

[Mr Brian H. Donohoe (Central Ayrshire) (Lab)]

The Secretary of State is being generous in giving way, which is very useful. Surely it is possible to give 16 and 17-year-olds the vote for the whole United Kingdom, even at this late stage, because in Scotland all the facts and figures are already on the register. Surely that could be replicated across the whole United Kingdom. Would not that be in all our favour?

[Mr Carmichael]

Well, not by means of this order. That is the short answer to the hon. Gentleman. The order before the House has been brought forward in advance of other recommendations from the Smith commission report and heads of agreement precisely because it will be very challenging, even at this point, to perform the necessary administrative functions to allow 16 and 17-year-olds the vote in May 2016 and, beyond that, 2017. Those are the practical considerations that he would do well to bear in mind, quite apart from questions about the availability of parliamentary time to get measures through this House and the other place.

In the run-up to the referendum, pledges were made to the people of Scotland. The three pro-Union parties—the Conservatives, the Liberal Democrats and Labour—all made a vow to devolve further powers to the Scottish Parliament within the United Kingdom, ensuring that Scotland retains the best of both worlds. Keeping that vow, the Prime Minister announced the day after the referendum that Lord Smith of Kelvin had agreed to lead a commission to agree what those new powers should be. The commission would work with the five parties represented in the Scottish Parliament to make that determination.

The commission invited submissions from political parties, a wide range of business and civic organisations and the wider public to help guide its consideration of what further powers should be devolved to the Scottish Parliament. Following due consideration of all submissions and views garnered by the commission, on 27 November 2014 the report detailing the heads of agreement was published. The report was welcomed by this Government and, as the House is aware, almost two weeks ago we published the draft clauses that will make up the substance of the next Scotland Bill to implement the report’s recommendations.

However, one of the commission’s recommendations is being taken forward separately from that Bill, and it will be introduced to Parliament following the general election: the recommendation that the UK Parliament should devolve the relevant powers in sufficient time to allow the Scottish Parliament to extend the franchise to 16 and 17-year-olds for the 2016 Scottish parliamentary elections, should it wish to do so. That is exactly what this draft order seeks to achieve.

The order is made under sections 30 and 63 of the Scotland Act 1998, the Act that set out the original devolution settlement for Scotland and continues to demonstrate that devolution is a fluid entity. Several section 30 and section 63 orders have been made under that Act and we do not expect that to change, even with the upcoming Bill. Where a need for change is identified and agreed, those changes are made.

The 1998 Act specifies what is reserved to the UK Parliament, not what is devolved to the Scottish Parliament. Section 30(2) of the 1998 Act provides a mechanism whereby schedule 4 or 5 to the 1998 Act can be modified by an Order in Council, subject to the agreement of both the UK and Scottish Parliaments. That allows the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament to be changed.

That mechanism will be used to give the Scottish Parliament the power to legislate to reduce the minimum voting age to 16 at elections to the Scottish Parliament and Scottish local government elections. The order achieves that by making several amendments to schedules 4 and 5 to the 1998 Act. That will include the power to legislate to make provision on the registration of young electors in order to give effect to any such reduction in the minimum voting age. Section 63(1)(b) of the 1998 Act allows for an Order in Council to provide for any functions, so long as they are exercisable by a Minister of the Crown in or with regard to Scotland to be exercisable by Scottish Ministers concurrently with the Minister of the Crown.

The order will also give Scottish Ministers the ability to exercise certain functions relating to the individual electoral registration digital service. Those functions will be exercisable by Scottish Ministers concurrently with UK Ministers, and subject to the agreement of UK Ministers.

The changes to the Scottish Parliament’s legislative competence will provide an exception so that the reduction of the minimum voting age to 16 at elections to the Scottish Parliament and at Scottish local government elections, and the registration of electors in order to give effect to provisions reducing the minimum voting age at those elections, will no longer be reserved matters.

The order will also enable the Scottish Government to make provision for the use of the individual electoral registration digital service when giving effect to provisions reducing the minimum voting age. I would like to make it clear that Scottish Ministers will be able to exercise those functions—in relation to the individual electoral registration digital service—only with the agreement of a Minister of the Crown. Scottish Ministers will be able to exercise those functions concurrently with a Minister of the Crown in so far as these are exercisable in or with regard to Scotland.

[Mr Donohoe]

Could the Scottish Parliament decide in future to lower the voting age further, say to 15 or 14? Does this order make that possible?

[Mr Carmichael]

Yes, that is the whole point of devolution. If the Scottish Parliament chooses to make a further change, it will have the legislative competence to do so as a result of this order. Of course, the Scottish Parliament is accountable to the people of Scotland for any exercise of the powers it has.

Finally, the order also provides that in certain cases the requirement to consult the Electoral Commission and the Information Commissioner, and to publish reports prepared by the Electoral Commission, will apply to Scottish Ministers if they exercise the functions given to them relating to the individual electoral registration digital service.

Members will realise that in one respect the order goes further than what the Smith commission recommended: rather than simply devolving the powers necessary to allow 16 and 17-year-olds to participate in the 2016 Scottish Parliament elections and subsequent Scottish Parliament elections, the order devolves the power to enable the Scottish Parliament, if it so desires, to legislate to lower the voting age to 16 in time for the 2017 local government elections in Scotland.

That was felt to be beneficial for two reasons. First, there is an issue of timing. If the Scottish Parliament wished to take forward such legislation, the timing of the Scotland Bill would make it very challenging to devolve the necessary powers in sufficient time for the Scottish Parliament in turn to legislate in time for May 2017 without breaching normal electoral rules. Secondly, the franchise for the Scottish Parliament elections is set by reference to the local government franchise. Devolving only the legislative competence to reduce the minimum voting age for Scottish Parliament elections would have meant that the Scottish Parliament needed to separate the Scottish Parliament franchise from the local government franchise, which in our view would have risked unnecessary complication.

If the approval of this House, the other place and the Scottish Parliament is secured, the order will go forward for consideration by Her Majesty in Council. When the order comes into force, the Scottish Parliament will be able to bring forward the legislation necessary to allow 16 and 17-year-olds to vote in all Scottish Parliament and local government elections. I understand that the Scottish Government intend to introduce this legislation as soon as possible once this order has been made by the Privy Council.

I have always been a firm believer in votes at 16. With the sheer number of young people participating and voting in last year’s referendum, I believe that that case has become undeniable. This was reflected in the Smith commission heads of agreement, with all the main political parties agreeing that the voting age for Scottish Parliament elections should be lowered to 16. The UK Government fast-tracked devolving the power for this as an exception from the rest of the Smith package so that it could be in place in time for 16 and 17-year-olds to vote in the 2016 Scottish Parliament elections. I commend the order to the House.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Alistair Carmichael]

With the leave of the House, Mr Speaker, I should like to make a few more comments about the order. I am grateful to the official Opposition for their co-operation.

There has been a remarkable consensus in the House this evening, despite all the efforts of the hon. Member for Moray (Angus Robertson), who did his best to challenge that consensus by violently agreeing with everything that was said by everyone else. It takes a particular skill to sow division by agreeing with everyone else, and that is just one of the reasons for which I have always regarded the hon. Gentleman as very special.

I particularly welcome the support of the official Opposition in respect of the order, and, indeed, in respect of the extension of the franchise to the rest of the United Kingdom. However, as one who, like the hon. Member for Moray, has long been a supporter of the extension of the franchise to 16-year-olds—indeed, I have supported it throughout my political career—let me gently suggest to the hon. Member for Glasgow East (Margaret Curran) and her colleagues that, when challenging the rest of us about the current position, they may wish to reflect on the fact that they had 13 years to change it when they were in government and I was a Member of Parliament here, but did not do so.

[Mr Donohoe]

rose—

[Mr Carmichael]

The hon. Gentleman intervened during my opening speech to ask about an extension to those under 16. The order restricts the power to the age of 16, which is an honouring of the Smith commitment. Once the draft clauses have become law, however, full devolution will follow, and the position will be as I described it to the hon. Gentleman. I do not know whether he still wishes to intervene.

[Mr Donohoe]

I am grateful to the Secretary of State for his generosity in giving way. One matter concerns me greatly. We are approaching a general election in May, and the same youngsters who were enabled to vote in the referendum will then be disfranchised. What effect will that have on their future involvement in politics? The point was not made this evening, although I expected it to be.

[Mr Carmichael]

I share the hon. Gentleman’s concern. If I had had my way, we would have made the change many years ago throughout the United Kingdom. However, I can only deal with the situation at hand. As I have already explained to the hon. Gentleman and others, the practicalities and the administrative issues are complex and involved. As a consequence, the purpose of the order is restricted, but it allows us to honour the commitments that we have made. I think it is clear from what has been said from Members in all parts of the House that, throughout the United Kingdom, we are on a journey. On a personal level, let me say to the hon. Gentleman and others that, while it is clear that there will be no change before 7 May for all sorts of practical reasons, it is, in my view, unthinkable that franchise for the 2020 election will not include 16 and 17-year-olds. I think that the move in that direction is now irresistible, but it will, of course, be for the House to make the decision on another day.

All Members who spoke described the positive engagement that they had experienced in their constituencies and elsewhere throughout the referendum campaign as a result of the participation of 16 and 17-year-old voters, and that was certainly my experience at the time, in all parts of Scotland and especially in my own constituency. One of the more positive memories that I will take from that campaign is of a packed meeting in Kirkwall town hall, which was addressed by me, by my noble Friend Baroness Williams of Crosby, and by a 15-year-old Orcadian school pupil, Jack Norquoy, who was not even old enough to vote in the referendum. It was both humbling and inspirational to observe that level of engagement and participation. It is, indeed, that level of engagement and participation that has brought us to this point, and it is for that reason that I am immensely proud to invite the House to agree to the order.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved,

That the draft Scotland Act 1998 (Modification of Schedules 4 and 5 and Transfer of Functions to the Scottish Ministers etc.) Order 2015, which was laid before this House on 20 January, be approved.

Oral Answers to Questions

Alistair Carmichael Excerpts

Wednesday 14th January 2015 Commons Chamber

[Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab)]

1. If he will make it his policy that responsibility for licensing shale gas extraction should be devolved to the Scottish Parliament.

[The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr Alistair Carmichael)]

That is already Government policy. As the hon. Lady will be aware, the Smith commission heads of agreement stated that the licensing of onshore oil and gas extraction should be devolved to the Scottish Parliament. The Government are committed to publishing draft clauses in that respect by 25 January.

[Sheila Gilmore]

I very much welcome the Secretary of State’s commitment to that part of the Smith agreement, to which my party is also committed, not least because it will put an end to the attempts by some people to suggest that without the devolution of licensing, the Scottish Government are powerless to stop fracking if they want to. They already have powers over planning and regulation, but I hope that this change will close that argument down, to everybody’s benefit.

[Mr Carmichael]

The hon. Lady is right to say that the Scottish Government have planning and environmental regulation powers that would enable them to block any fracking project they wanted to block. It is sensible, in the circumstances, that they should be given responsibility for the licensing of such activities as well. That will be done as part of the Smith process.

[Angus Robertson (Moray) (SNP)]

The Scottish Government and the Scottish National party have been pressing for the devolution of all powers over fracking for some time. Why have the UK Government ruled out devolving power over fracking licences until after the general election?

[Mr Carmichael]

That is part of the timetable to which we are all committed. Until I heard the Deputy First Minister speak at the National museum, I had thought that the hon. Gentleman’s party was committed to it as well. We are proceeding with that speedy and tight process. I will publish the draft clauses before 25 August—sorry, I mean 25 January, which is, incidentally, before 25 August. With 25 January being a Sunday, we might even meet the deadline with a few days to spare.

[Angus Robertson]

Until now, the UK Government’s position has been to remove the right of Scottish householders to object to unconventional gas or oil drilling underneath their homes. What will the position be between now and the full devolution of powers over fracking? Will the Department of Energy and Climate Change give an undertaking that it will not issue any fresh licences?

[Mr Carmichael]

The position will be as it is at the moment, which is that if there is any fracking project in Scotland, the hon. Gentleman’s colleagues in the Scottish Government will have the power, using planning or environmental regulations, to block it. They should not seek to push the blame on to anyone else.

[Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co-op)]

11. I welcome what the Secretary of State has said. Recently, I wrote to the Minister for Business, Energy and Tourism in the Scottish Government to ask whether it was their policy to block such developments. He wrote back to say that he endorsed the principle of robust regulation, but gave no answer on what their policy was. Will the Secretary of State enlighten us as to whether he has heard anything from the Scottish Government on this matter?

[Mr Carmichael]

No, I am afraid that I cannot assist the hon. Lady in that regard. All I can do is point to the fact that the Scottish Government seem to be desperate to speak about the powers that are held by others, rather than about the way in which they will exercise the powers that they already have. Her constituents and others will doubtless draw their own conclusions.

[Tom Greatrex (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Lab/Co-op)]

The Secretary of State will be aware that, following the amendments that I moved in the Committee stage of the Infrastructure Bill yesterday, there has been movement from the Government, which we should all welcome. Will he help the House by clarifying the fact that having a licence does not enable somebody to undertake any extraction or exploration activity? It has been suggested that it does, but that is absolutely not the case.

[Mr Carmichael]

I pay tribute to the hon. Gentleman for his efforts on this matter and, in particular, for tabling his amendments. As was made clear to him yesterday in Committee, the Government will return to the matter on Report. We will table an amendment that we believe will achieve the same end, which is the carving out of Scotland from those provisions in the Infrastructure Bill. He is absolutely right that licensing is just one element—it provides no overall entitlement. For fracking to go ahead, the Scottish Government have to give consent on planning and environmental grounds.

[Margaret Curran (Glasgow East) (Lab)]

Labour recently called for immediate devolution in this area, and we welcome the Government’s response, which as the Secretary of State has said is part of the ongoing commitment to the Smith agreement. Where appropriate, the Government should move immediately to devolve the powers agreed by the Smith commission.

Today, the leaders of Scotland’s three largest cities, home to a quarter of Scotland’s population, have joined us in calling for job-creating powers to be devolved too. Will the Secretary of State bring forward a section 106 order so that those powers can go to Scotland as soon as possible and we can start the work to reverse the failure of this Government’s Work programme?

[Mr Carmichael]

The hon. Lady and I discussed a section 106 order when we met recently, but I have to tell her that the route that she has identified—a section 106 order followed by a section 63 order—is not, in our view, the appropriate one to honour the commitments in the Smith programme. That would devolve competence to the Government in Scotland, not the Parliament, which would need a section 30 order. I just do not see how we will achieve that end in the time available to us in this Parliament, but we are determined that where there is a need for joint working between the two Governments to achieve a better transfer of power, my right hon. Friend the Under-Secretary and I will be engaged in that process.

[Ann McKechin (Glasgow North) (Lab)]

2. What change there has been in the level of child poverty in Scotland since 2010; and if he will make a statement.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dame Angela Watkinson (Hornchurch and Upminster) (Con)]

3. What assessment he has made of the potential effect on businesses in Scotland of the removal of the requirement for employers to pay national insurance contributions in respect of employees under the age of 21 and apprentices under the age of 25.

[The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr Alistair Carmichael)]

Abolishing employer national insurance contributions for under-21s is expected to help Scottish businesses save £45 million and support jobs for 138,000 young people. Extending that to apprentices under 25 will help about 31,000 apprentices in Scotland, and it will be more than £1,000 a year cheaper to employ an apprentice earning £16,000.

[Dame Angela Watkinson]

Is it correct that the employment level in Scotland rose to a record level in the last financial quarter—even higher than the UK average? Does that not demonstrate that the Government’s long-term economic plan is working across the United Kingdom and especially in Scotland?

[Mr Carmichael]

Indeed, my hon. Friend is absolutely right, and that is especially true in areas that are hardest to move, such as youth unemployment, which is down by 5.1% over the past 12 months. Of course it is still too high and of course there is still a great deal to do, but those figures and the ones that she has just mentioned demonstrate that the Government’s plan is right, that it is working and that we should not put it at risk by handing power to those who would just borrow, spend and play games for political ends.

[John Thurso (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)]

When my right hon. Friend next travels down the A9, may I commend to him a stop in Brora to visit Highland Bespoke Furniture? It now employs six people as a direct result of the reduction in national insurance that has helped it to recruit further skilled work. Will the Government consider extending the scheme to workers over 25 who are coming back to work, as that would help further to expand that business and employment in that area?

[Mr Carmichael]

I thank my right hon. Friend for that question. I look forward to joining him in the not-too-distant future, and if Brora is a place in his constituency that he thinks I should see, I will be more than happy to go there with him. He is right to mention the opportunities that have been created as a result of this measure, and businesses the length and breadth of Scotland will tell a story similar to the one he has just related. On his proposal to extend the scheme, he will be aware that a Budget is coming up in March, and he or any hon. Member from across the House who wants to make representations can do so through the Scotland Office.

[Mr Mike Weir (Angus) (SNP)]

4. What steps the Government are taking to maintain existing Scottish rail services on and connected to the east coast main line.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Alan Reid (Argyll and Bute) (LD)]

5. What assessment he has made of the adequacy of provision of broadband and mobile phone coverage in rural Scotland.

[The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr Alistair Carmichael)]

The Government’s superfast broadband rollout programme has provided over £120 million to the Scottish Government to improve broadband services. More than 160,000 additional Scottish homes and businesses now have access to broadband as a result. The Government have recently achieved a deal with the mobile network operators that will reduce complete not spots in Scotland by about two thirds, and partial not spots by one half.

[Mr Reid]

I very much welcome that investment, but the money to bring superfast broadband to my constituency was handed over to the Scottish Government, who are supposed to be organising the delivery work. However, many of my constituents complain to me that neither the Scottish Government nor BT are able to tell them when, or even if, they will benefit from this project. Will my right hon. Friend please get on to the Scottish Government and tell them to publish a clear timetable for the delivery of this important work?

[Mr Carmichael]

Unfortunately, this is a tale I hear as I travel around Scotland, especially in the highlands and islands. The communities my hon. Friend is talking to—I am sure he represents many of them—are not unreasonable, but they do want to know what to expect, so that they can plan for their services and their businesses. One would not think that it was that difficult.

[Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)]

Mobile coverage is an important social utility, as we have seen quite recently. Because of storms and lightning, BT lines have been down for weeks in parts of Lewis and Harris. Special thanks are due to BT and hydro engineers, who have been working hard in very bad weather to repair utilities. What are the right hon. Gentleman’s Government doing to ensure that island and rural areas are not left behind with 90% 4G telephone coverage, especially considering that 2G and 3G have been bad and that, with its high data speeds, 4G coverage is an excellent system for accessing broadband?

[Mr Carmichael]

May I first join the hon. Gentleman in paying tribute to the hydro engineers and telecoms engineers, who are working throughout the highlands and islands even as we speak? They provide an excellent service to our local communities and we should place on record our gratitude towards them. They work in very difficult circumstances.

On 4G coverage, the hon. Gentleman will no doubt be aware of the deal my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport made recently with mobile network operators. That offers the opportunity for greater coverage of 3G and 4G. We will need to see, when they come forward with the actual proposals, what that will mean for our communities, but I can assure him that I am keeping an eye on it.

[Mr Charles Kennedy (Ross, Skye and Lochaber) (LD)]

In echoing and endorsing entirely the points made by my immediate highland constituency neighbour, my hon. Friend the Member for Argyll and Bute (Mr Reid), may I encourage the Secretary of State to stress to the Scottish Government the need in particular to draw BT’s attention to Openreach? It is ironically entitled, as constituents and consumers cannot reach it openly and cannot contact it directly, which is why they cannot get an answer to the legitimate question: when is last year’s £10 million investment of UK Government money actually going to meet their needs and be delivered?

[Mr Carmichael]

It is clear, beyond any doubt, that a substantial amount of money is going in from this Government, the Scottish Government, local authorities and European funds to this most important area of economic development. Responsibility for delivery, at the end of that money, rests with the Scottish Government. I take it, from the comments of my right hon. Friend and others in the House, that the Scottish Government need to be telling our communities more.

[Gordon Banks (Ochil and South Perthshire) (Lab)]

Someone once said:

“We have got to stop thinking of broadband and other connectivity issues as being some sort of luxury. It is as important to the future sustainability of our communities as having a supply of water or electricity.”

Does the Secretary of State still agree with his own words? If so, can he tell communities in Ochil and South Perthshire and elsewhere in Scotland why, when we have running water and electricity, we still do not have superfast broadband?

[Mr Carmichael]

I absolutely stand by my own words. I recognised them as soon as the hon. Gentleman started to quote them. It is a view that I still hold and it is why this Government have made a substantial investment. If he has particular cases relating to delivery, which unfortunately we have passed to the Scottish Government, I am more than happy to help him in any way I can.

[Pamela Nash (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)]

6. What discussions he has had with his ministerial colleagues on job losses in Scotland resulting from City Link entering administration.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr Alistair Carmichael)]

The Prime Minister and the Deputy Prime Minister have made it clear that the Government are committed to delivering draft clauses by 25 January.

[Lorraine Fullbrook]

Following the Prime Minister’s meeting with the new First Minister, does the Secretary of State expect full support from the Scottish Government in ensuring a speedy delivery of the proposals in the draft Bill?

[Mr Carmichael]

I have learned over the years not to expect too much when working with the Scottish Government, but I am hopeful that that will be the case. One way or the other, however, we shall deliver on the undertakings that were given.

[Mr Iain McKenzie (Inverclyde) (Lab)]

12. The Smith commission agreement contained a strong desire to see devolution extend to local government. Will the Secretary of State impress upon the SNP Government the need to embrace that desire, release their iron grip on power and devolve to local government?

[Mr Carmichael]

Indeed. This is something we hear from communities across the country in Scotland. Power in Scotland has been sucked up, particularly from local councils, and exercised at the centre by the Scottish Government. That was not how devolution was ever intended to work, and they need to change their approach.

[Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP)]

The Smith commission is not the only example of parties working together. Yesterday, we saw a fantastic example, when Scottish Labour walked through the Lobby with the Conservatives to support Conservative austerity. Does the Secretary of State envisage any other such “better together” moments coming before the next general election?

[Mr Carmichael]

The only remarkable thing about that is that it tells us absolutely nothing about what the SNP would do to tackle the deficit, if—heaven help us—they were ever in a position to influence it.

[Mike Crockart (Edinburgh West) (LD)]

8. What discussions he has had with the Minister for culture, communications and creative industries on how effectively the Government are protecting vulnerable consumers in Scotland from nuisance calls.

Heads of Agreement

Alistair Carmichael Excerpts

Thursday 27th November 2014 Written Statements

[The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr Alistair Carmichael)]

Lord Smith of Kelvin has today published the Heads of Agreement with recommendations for further devolution of powers to the Scottish Parliament.

In order to assist Members, I am depositing a copy of the Heads of Agreement in the Libraries of both Houses. I have also arranged for paper copies to be made available in the Vote Office in the House of Commons and the Printed Paper Office in the House of Lords.

I will make a further statement to the House of Commons later today.

Smith Commission

Alistair Carmichael Excerpts

Thursday 27th November 2014 Commons Chamber

[The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr Alistair Carmichael)]

With permission, Mr Speaker, I shall make a statement to the House about the further devolution process in Scotland and the publication of the heads of agreement resulting from Lord Smith’s five-party talks. As the Prime Minister has already said this morning, we back the agreement and its recommendations, and will produce draft legislation in January.

The referendum on independence that was held on 18 September 2014 saw Scotland vote decisively to remain within our UK family of nations of England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, backed by the strength, security and stability of the United Kingdom. The turnout across Scotland was nearly 85%, and more than 2 million people made a positive choice for Scotland to remain part of the UK.

During the referendum campaign, the Prime Minister, the Deputy Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition made a joint commitment to deliver more powers to the Scottish Parliament. The Smith commission, chaired by Lord Smith of Kelvin, was up and running on 19 September, and Lord Smith convened cross-party talks to reach agreement on the proposals for further devolution to Scotland. The process has been thorough and extensive. The party representatives were drawn from the five main political parties in Scotland; this was the first time ever that all five had participated in a devolution process.

I would echo the comments of Lord Smith in the foreword to his report:

“This agreement is, in itself, an unprecedented achievement. It demanded compromise from all of the parties. In some cases that meant moving to devolve greater powers than they had previously committed to, while for other parties it meant accepting the outcome would fall short of their ultimate ambitions. It shows that, however difficult, our political leaders can come together, work together, and reach agreement with one another.”

In preparing the report, Lord Smith heard from a wide range of Scottish civic institutions and members of the public. Over 400 submissions were received from organisations and groups, and over 18,000 submissions, including e-mails, letters and signatures to petitions, from people across Scotland.

The Smith commission has today produced comprehensive heads of agreement ahead of the St Andrew’s day deadline contained in the timetable. This is a significant achievement and historic moment for Scotland. I thank Lord Smith and the party representatives for their work. They have worked hard against a challenging timetable, covering an enormous area of ground. This work will deliver a substantial package of new powers to the Scottish Parliament.

The heads of agreement provide for a durable but responsive constitutional settlement for Scotland within the United Kingdom. They give greater financial responsibility to the Scottish Parliament, with an updated fiscal framework for Scotland, consistent with the UK fiscal framework. For the first time, over 50% of the money spent by the Scottish Government will be raised by the Scottish Government. That is an important step which builds on the measures brought forward by this Government in the Scotland Act 2012, and further increases the financial accountability of the Scottish Parliament to the Scottish people.

The recommendations provide for key welfare measures to be designed by and delivered in Scotland. That will give the Scottish Parliament the tools—and the responsibility—to tackle a range of issues with specific consideration of local circumstances, including those related to social care, long-term unemployment and housing, while continuing to benefit from the strength and stability of the UK-wide system.

The recommendations build on the already significant powers of the Scottish Parliament in social justice and a range of other policy areas. Together, those recommendations give greater responsibility for more decisions affecting Scotland to be made in the Scottish Parliament and paid for by revenue raised by the Scottish Parliament. However, further devolution is just one part of this story. People in Scotland were unequivocally clear on 18 September that Scotland should retain the security of being part of our United Kingdom. The Smith commission’s remit was clear—to set out proposals for further devolution within the United Kingdom—and that remit was signed up to by all parties participating in the process, including the Scottish Government. The conclusions reached by the parties ensure a set of proposals that do not cause detriment to the UK as a whole or any of its constituent parts. The Government are committed to ensuring that Scotland and the whole of the United Kingdom continue to prosper from our single domestic market, our social union and the strength that comes from the pooling and sharing of risks.

People in Scotland voted on 18 September for the jobs and opportunities that are created by being part of a larger United Kingdom with one currency, no borders and more money to spend on public services. People in Scotland want to keep the advantages of the UK pound, UK pensions, UK armed forces and a strong UK voice in the world. The package that has been announced today allows that to happen.

As the Prime Minister has already made clear, the Government back the heads of agreement and their recommendations and we shall get on with producing draft legislation. The draft clauses will be produced by Burns night, 25 January, meeting the next phase in our commitment to the people in Scotland. That work begins today. A team has been brought together with leading officials in the Scotland Office, HM Treasury, the Department for Work and Pensions and the Cabinet Office. That team will work closely with all lead policy Departments within the UK Government. The team will remain in place to deliver a Bill in the UK Parliament following the next general election.

To support the preparation of the draft legislation, I have invited key Scottish stakeholders representing a wide range of sectors to form a stakeholder group. I shall provide further details of the membership and terms of reference of the group in due course, but it is my intention that it will support the Government’s work translating the heads of agreement into the draft legislation that we shall publish by 25 January. As Lord Smith said in his foreword:

“Through this process I have worked closely with people who can argue passionately with one another while sharing an equal concern and love for their country. I would like to thank them all for their input, challenge and support. I hope that, in the end, they can work together, maintain their energy and use it to create a Scotland which is even stronger and even better.”

Having a more powerful Scottish Parliament inside a strong United Kingdom is the best outcome for the people of Scotland and the people of the United Kingdom. This is what we voted for on 18 September. Today’s report is an affirmation of the vow that was made in September. It is a historic moment for Scotland.

The cause of home rule has been at the heart of Scottish politics since the days of Gladstone. This agreement provides a modern blueprint: Scottish home rule within our strong United Kingdom—home rule for Scotland that can open the door to constitutional reform for the rest of the United Kingdom. We can achieve home rule all round.

[Margaret Curran (Glasgow East) (Lab)]

I thank the Secretary of State for advance sight of his statement, and join him in thanking Lord Smith of Kelvin for his work and his report, and indeed all the commissioners. I want to pay particular tribute to my right hon. Friend the Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown), whose proposals during the referendum set us on the way to delivering this momentous agreement to deliver a powerhouse Parliament.

As the Secretary of State has said, this is a historic day for Scotland. Ten weeks ago the people of Scotland—in overwhelming numbers—confirmed Scotland’s place in the United Kingdom. It was a decision made on the highest turnout ever seen in these isles, and it was a vote for change: change in the way Scotland is governed, change that will see more decisions taken closer to people, but safer, faster, better change as part of the United Kingdom. This is a promise kept and an agreement delivered.

The Labour party was very clear that we would honour the promises made during the referendum, and we have delivered. As the Secretary of State has said, this has been achieved in a co-operative and constructive process, working in the spirit of consensus that people across Scotland expect. That is why we wholly endorse the recommendations of the Smith commission and we give our guarantee to the people of Scotland that if—or, rather, when—we are in government after May, we will legislate for these powers in our first Queen’s Speech.

This agreement will see more powers over tax, welfare and jobs transferred to the Scottish Parliament. We have secured guarantees over the voting rights of Scottish MPs on the Budget and on the continuation of the Barnett formula. We believe this provides the best deal for the people of Scotland. In fact, today’s deal is more radical and goes further than many had anticipated. We on this side of the House believe that the principle we have worked for today—pushing power closer to people—is one that should be followed across Britain. That is why we will continue to call for a constitutional convention to be established to consider how this can be achieved, working with all the nations and regions of the United Kingdom.

Now that agreement has been reached, will the Secretary of State tell the House how the recommendations of the Smith commission will be implemented and what the timetable will be, and will he specifically and in detail outline how hon. Members will be involved in this next stage of the process, as the draft clauses are produced? Given the success of cross-party working that is inherent in the work of the Smith commission, will the Secretary of State outline how the parties will be involved in this stage, and how the Opposition will be consulted on the details he announced in his statement?

As Lord Smith pointed out in his statement this morning, these additional powers will also mean that the Scottish Parliament’s own processes will need to be strengthened to enable it to hold the Government to account. Will the Secretary of State tell the House what consultation there will now be with the Scottish Parliament to ensure that it is well prepared for this transfer of powers?

Lord Smith also recommended closer working between the Scottish Parliament and Government and the UK Parliament and Government. How does the Secretary of State intend to take forward that recommendation and ensure that Members of this House become involved?

For the past two years, our country has been divided along yes and no lines. Today marks an important moment. There are no longer yeses and noes, just Scots with new powers, and we look forward to working across Scotland to deliver them. Labour will deliver those new powers in our first Queen’s Speech in May. More power is now in Scotland’s hands, and it is for all of us to work together to create that better Scotland.

[Mr Carmichael]

I acknowledge that this process has not been easy for any of the parties; it has involved compromise on all sides. I pay tribute to the hon. Lady and her colleagues in the Scottish Labour party for the compromises and progress that they have made. They have acted in accordance with the spirit that was expected by the people of Scotland following the referendum vote.

The hon. Lady mentioned the proposals for the rest of the United Kingdom. As I have said at the Dispatch Box on a number of occasions in recent weeks, that debate is now happening and I welcome it. I share her enthusiasm for a constitutional convention. She will be aware that the Government have set up a Cabinet Committee to look into the wider issues of devolution in other parts of the United Kingdom, and I deeply regret that her party has chosen not to take part in that. I hope that, even at this late stage, Labour Members will change their minds. She and her right hon. and hon. Friends can anticipate receiving an invitation soon to contribute to the Command Paper that the Government will be bringing forward, so if they have proposals, we will be interested to hear them.

The hon. Lady asked about the implementation of the heads of agreement. As I explained in my statement, a stakeholder group will be set up, and I anticipate there being opportunities for all parties—and, indeed, for groups beyond the political parties—to have a role in that. I will update the House on that as soon as possible.

One of the most important and prescient observations that Lord Smith made in his personal recommendations was that there should be closer working not only between the two Governments—which has long been accepted to be the case—but between the two Parliaments. Indeed, it was suggested that you, Mr Speaker, might soon consider meeting the Presiding Officer of the Scottish Parliament to build that co-operation between the two Parliaments and the two Governments. Those recommendations have a great deal to recommend them. The hon. Lady asked how the recommendations in the report would be implemented, and I can tell her that they will be implemented without hesitation, reservation or equivocation.

[Mr Speaker]

I meet the Presiding Officer of the Scottish Parliament regularly—a fact of which I suspect colleagues might be aware—and I am very happy to meet her as necessary.

[Sir Gerald Howarth (Aldershot) (Con)]

May I say to the Secretary of State that this is no way to introduce massive constitutional change to our country, given the major implications for the rest of the United Kingdom, which has not been consulted at all, not least on the question of how English votes are to be applied to English laws? Does he believe that these proposals will contain or further inflame separatist sentiment in Scotland?

[Mr Carmichael]

In Scotland, on 18 September, we decided that we wanted to remain part of the United Kingdom. That was clear and unequivocal, and it is that position that we are now entrenching. To answer the hon. Gentleman’s last question, I believe that these proposals will strengthen the position of Scotland and the United Kingdom for the future. I am sensitive to his concerns about the need for constitutional change in other parts of the United Kingdom and I understand that there is an imbalance within our current constitutional framework. Let me tell him that that was the case before we set up the Scottish Parliament in the first place—it was one of the reasons we set up a Scottish Parliament. The process has been an evolutionary one across the UK and that evolutionary process must now continue. I hope that he and his colleagues, in England in particular, will now take to that debate with enthusiasm and build a consensus that can bring forward the change that is necessary.

[Mr Alistair Darling (Edinburgh South West) (Lab)]

I, too, welcome the proposals being made by the Smith commission today, transferring, as they do, not just more powers but significant new responsibilities that will be taken on by the Scottish Parliament. As we implement those and discuss, as we must, further devolution to other parts of the United Kingdom, will the Secretary of State ensure that we do nothing that undermines the integrity and the strength of the United Kingdom? In particular, will he ensure that we do not undermine the fiscal union, which is one of the central pillars of that United Kingdom? The majority of people in Scotland voted clearly to stay within the United Kingdom, and I believe the majority of people in the entire United Kingdom want to see it continue. We must be very careful to manage this carefully—other big countries have done it and we can do it, too.

[Mr Carmichael]

I do not disagree in any way, shape or form with what the right hon. Gentleman says. Indeed, the sentiment he refers to was reflected in the remit we gave Lord Smith and then in the principles that underpinned his work—the principles agreed by all five parties to the discussion. I believe that what they have brought forward today is entirely consistent with those principles.

[Sir George Young (North West Hampshire) (Con)]

Does my right hon. Friend agree that it is important for the integrity and credibility of the political process in this country that commitments given by political leaders during the referendum campaign are honoured? Does he further agree that the proposals he has just announced further accentuate the imbalance in the British constitution between England and the rest of the United Kingdom? Does he therefore agree that it would be wrong, as some have proposed, to kick the McKay proposals into the long grass? They now need to be addressed with some urgency.

[Mr Carmichael]

I could not agree more with the right hon. Gentleman on the importance of honouring the vow that was made, and that is what we are about today. As I have acknowledged, there is currently an imbalance within the UK constitutional framework. As a federalist, I have long believed that that needs addressing. I do not think anything should be kicked into the long grass. He has been involved in the management of this House in various capacities for many years now, so he will be as aware as I am that once these things are changed it is difficult to change them back if we get them wrong. There is a need for constitutional reform and it goes far beyond the Standing Orders of this House.

[Stewart Hosie (Dundee East) (SNP)]

I thank the Scottish Secretary for his statement, and Lord Smith and the commissioners for their work. The substantive parts of this are the devolution of less than 30% of Scotland’s tax base and of less than 20% of welfare, and the assignation of a share of VAT. Although that is interesting as far as it goes, I note the absence of other substantive job-creating powers. The Scottish National party will not stand in the way of these powers; it is important to put that on the record, and I do welcome the report as modest progress. However, will the Scottish Secretary confirm that however they are dressed up, these proposals do not reflect the powerhouse Parliament that many in Scotland believed they had been promised before the referendum?

[Mr Carmichael]

First, let me try to adopt a more appropriate tone than the hon. Gentleman has perhaps just done and congratulate him on his recent election to the position of deputy leader of his party. It is unfortunate that he did not use the word “welcome”; there are significant job-creating powers in this package and the Scottish Parliament already holds significant job-creating powers. If Nicola Sturgeon is sincere when she says that she wants to govern for the whole of Scotland, she should get on and use the powers that she has, welcome the ones that she is getting and use them for the benefit of the people of Scotland.

The hon. Gentleman predictably and depressingly seeks to suggest that this is not a fulfilment of the vow. Well, the vow is on the front page of the Daily Record. For the benefit of the House, I have brought that paper with me today. The front page says, “The vow delivers.” Let me draw the House’s attention to the article itself. On page 3, it says that

“it’s is now clear that they”—

David Cameron, Nick Clegg and Ed Miliband—

“have stood behind this agreement to deliver change. Lurid claims to the contrary by some pro-Yes commentators”—

it must have known what the hon. Gentleman was going to say—

“have been shown to be false.”

That is the assessment of one of Scotland’s leading papers. It is more to be relied on than the views of the hon. Gentleman.

[Sir Menzies Campbell (North East Fife) (LD)]

My right hon. Friend can now be assured of some favourable remarks in relation to what he has just said about the Daily Record. He will not be surprised that I, rather less grudgingly, welcome both the process behind the proposals and the proposals themselves. Does he understand that I welcome the accusation that these proposals are federal in nature, because it is in federalism that we will find the best constitutional solution to meet the aspirations of all four of our nations and, at the same time, secure the advantages of a secure United Kingdom? Is not the truth now that we should all be federalists?

[Mr Carmichael]

Speaking for myself, I always have been a federalist. Indeed, I understand that I can now count on the support of the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown) in that aspiration. May I also recognise the pivotal role that my right hon. and learned Friend took in the formulation of my own party’s proposals? His commission was the first intervention in this debate, and it very much established the tone and set the bar at a level that others felt it necessary to clear. Ultimately, a federal structure is what this country needs. It works perfectly well—in fact it works much better—in countries around the world. Clearly, it will take time. What we are about here today is delivering in the here and now on the pledge that we made in the referendum.

[Mr Ian Davidson (Glasgow South West) (Lab/Co-op)]

I seek clarification from the Secretary of State as to whether the support of the Smith commission was unanimous. If that is the case, great credit is due to the Greens and to the SNP in particular for being willing to sit down and collaborate with the Liberals, the Conservatives and Labour to find something around which we can all agree. I hope the right hon. Gentleman agrees that if we have had unanimity in producing the report of Smith, we now must have unanimity in implementing it.

[Mr Carmichael]

That unanimity is important. I understand that that was the basis on which the agreement was made. Unfortunately, given the tone of some of what we have heard today, John Swinney, who by all accounts performed a significant role in the commission, has not been able to bring everyone in his party with him. That is to be regretted.

[Mr John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con)]

Does the Secretary of State agree that once Scotland is determining her own income tax rates and bands in the Scottish Parliament, it would be quite wrong for Scottish Members of this Parliament to be trying to fix those bands and rates for the English?

[Mr Carmichael]

I commend to my right hon. Friend the terms of the Smith report, which make it clear that income tax means a tax shared between the two Parliaments.

[Mr Graham Allen (Nottingham North) (Lab)]

I welcome the report. This is a great day for democracy and what is good enough for Scotland is now good enough for England. The Secretary of State will have seen in The Times today a letter from local government leaders from the greatest to the smallest asking for devolution in England. Rather than having to drag it out of Whitehall over 20 years, as Scotland did, through lobbying and referenda-ising, we should get to this quickly. If we do not, through our sloth the Secretary of State might create in England the same nationalism as was evident in Scotland, which I think he would regret. Will he not keep putting this off and talking about constitutional conventions that might never report? We know what we need to do: put it in the manifestos, unite the House and give England local devolution, as Scotland is now getting.

[Mr Carmichael]

I congratulate the hon. Gentleman, as I suspect that that is the first time that Hansard will have been required to record the word referenda-ising. It is novel and creative. I am not entirely sure whether the growth of nationalism in the different parts of England will be a consequence, but having sat through a six-hour debate just a few weeks ago in this House on the subject of devolution across the whole United Kingdom, I would say the one thing that was clear at the end of the debate was that there is not yet consensus—[Interruption.] It might well need leadership, but leadership alone will not be enough to build consensus. The hon. Gentleman would do well to listen to the words of his own Front Benchers on the question of a constitutional convention. That is not a delaying tactic, as he seems to think. In my view, it is the only feasible way of building consensus to get the change that is wanted.

[Mr Andrew Tyrie (Chichester) (Con)]

The report is a welcome first step towards stabilising the Union, redressing a Scottish grievance, and the Treasury Committee will consider it as part of its inquiry into fiscal devolution. Does the Secretary of State agree that another crucial step must be to redress an English grievance: that Scottish MPs vote on English laws? That must end, notwithstanding the curious wording of paragraph 75 of the agreement. Does he further agree that the English must have a veto on all laws that largely or exclusively affect them, and that the case for that is all the stronger with full devolution of income tax? Nothing less will do.

[Mr Carmichael]

It is because we understand the need for change—as I have said already, I and the whole Government are sensitive to that wish for change—that we have set up the process that is being led by my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House, which is aimed at building consensus to bring about that change.

[Ann McKechin (Glasgow North) (Lab)]

I welcome the comprehensive cross-party consensus to work together for the benefit of the whole of Scotland that the Smith commission has achieved. The Secretary of State will be aware, as I mentioned this to him in Scottish questions yesterday, that there is a growing tax gap, given that there is a higher proportion of basic rate taxpayers and we still do not know how those on the highest incomes, such as Brian Souter, might divert their tax bases so that they do not become liable for Scottish tax rates. Before we produce a White Paper next year, may we have a full analysis from the Treasury of the tax base, so we can make sure that any final block settlement accurately reflects the tax raised in Scotland and ensures that we do not end up with Scotland having a worse deal?

[Mr Carmichael]

Today’s publication and the agreement we have offer us a range of opportunities in Scotland. In particular, we can do the things for the Scottish economy that will produce the growth that will expand that tax base. The important point is that, having made this decision, we should get on and implement it and then start using the powers, rather than constantly talking about our constitutional position.

[Mr Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con)]

How does today’s report fit in with the promise made by the Prime Minister on 19 September that any change giving more devolution in Scotland would go in tandem with, and at the same pace as, changes in the rest of the United Kingdom?

[Mr Carmichael]

No. I have to contradict my hon. Friend. It has been made perfectly clear all along, and the Prime Minister himself has said, that the change that was promised to Scotland will go ahead according to the timetable that was given to the people of Scotland. It is not contingent on other changes.

[Mr Jim Murphy (East Renfrewshire) (Lab)]

I welcome today’s statement and I think people across Scotland will welcome it. The referendum changed Scotland, and today’s statement is confirmation that we need to respect the wishes for change of the no voters and reach out to many of those who voted yes as well. In welcoming the tax powers, may I point out that the new welfare powers are just as crucial? Will the Secretary of State confirm that the new welfare powers total perhaps as much as £3 billion of new responsibility for the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government, and that he is minded to enable the devolution of those powers at a pace and in a manner that will enable Scotland to challenge poverty and the generational disadvantage that blights far too many families?

[Mr Carmichael]

I can confirm the figure that the right hon. Gentleman has put to the House. What is being offered to the Scottish Parliament is the power to design a welfare system that is fit for purpose in Scotland. That will be one part of tackling the generational issues of poverty and social exclusion to which he refers. The increased powers in job creation and taxation, especially income tax, and the powers to grow the economy in Scotland, can be used to tackle the issues that the right hon. Gentleman is so right to highlight.

[Sir Robert Smith (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)]

During the referendum campaign, the four party leaders made commitments to the Scottish people. Today we see three party leaders delivering on the vow that they made. Does my right hon. Friend agree that the best way forward for Scotland is for the SNP to acknowledge their leader’s statement that this would be a once-in-a-generation referendum?

[Mr Carmichael]

Indeed; I could not agree more. The Prime Minister, the Deputy Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition made a vow during the referendum campaign. Today we honour that vow. The former First Minister and his successor—Alex Salmond and Nicola Sturgeon—also made a vow. They said that they would respect the outcome of the referendum and the decision of the people of Scotland. There is no reason from today for them to do anything other than to make it clear that we will not be returning to this question in a referendum, as they said, in a generation.

[Dame Anne Begg (Aberdeen South) (Lab)]

I, too, welcome the announcement today. It has delivered more than the vow—perhaps we could call it the vow plus. There is certainly more in the statement than was expected.

I welcome the fact that quite a lot of welfare is to be devolved, but it is right that pensions, especially the state pension, should remain reserved, because throughout the campaign and in all the polling, Scottish people, even many yes voters, thought that pensions should remain part of the UK. When can we expect to see the detail of how some of this will work in practice? Not until the detail is available to all Members will we know whether it is practical or not that some of these powers should be devolved.

[Mr Carmichael]

I like the hon. Lady’s formulation, “the vow plus”. My party leader in Scotland, Willie Rennie, said this morning that this was “the vow max”. I agree with him on that. The hon. Lady is right to highlight that the state pension will remain part of the United Kingdom welfare system. That is one of the most significant parts of the social union that the people of Scotland chose to remain part of on 18 September.

As for the detail, as Chair of the Work and Pensions Committee, the hon. Lady will doubtless have an important role to play in working it out.

[Mr Andrew Robathan (South Leicestershire) (Con)]

When a healthy majority of our fellow countrymen in Scotland voted to remain in our country, the United Kingdom, it seemed to me that they voted against the petty-minded, mean-spirited and spiteful nationalism that we see from the SNP, yet these proposals seem to be delivering deeper and greater separation between the component parts of the United Kingdom. When Tony Blair introduced his proposal for devolution, which I considered pretty half-baked, he said that it would end the rise of nationalism and cement the United Kingdom. Will my right hon. Friend explain what it is about today’s proposals that will cement the United Kingdom and not lead to yet greater demands for separation of the structure of our country?

[Mr Carmichael]

In the course of the referendum campaign all three parties made a vow. It is absolutely essential that we deliver on that vow in the way we are doing today. The UK constitution is a dynamic model—it always has been and it always will be. It is one of the advantages of having an unwritten constitution, as we do. So yes, as I said earlier today, I remain sensitive to the wish of people in England in particular to see a reformed constitution working better for them. It is up to them to decide exactly what that means. We have done it for ourselves in Scotland. They now need to follow suit.

[Sandra Osborne (Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock) (Lab)]

I am pleased that, contrary to reports, it has been decided not to recommend devolving abortion, which would have caused all sorts of problems. This is a very exciting day for Scotland, a day we should celebrate. I was going to say that we should put the cynicism and division of the past few years behind us, until I heard the hon. Member for Dundee East (Stewart Hosie). Will the Scottish people be informed on an individual household basis of the eventual legislation that comes forward, as happened during the referendum? May I ask the Secretary of State to come to the birthplace of our national bard on 25 January to announce the draft legislation?

[Mr Carmichael]

That sounds an enticing prospect. Subject to diary commitments—my own diary gets fairly full around Burns night—I would be more than happy to accommodate the hon. Lady’s request if at all possible. She raised the matter of abortion, the terms of the report in relation to which she will have seen. There is a clear statement that it is considered by the commissioners to be an anomalous reservation, and I can understand why they take that view. However, we have always dealt with abortion differently—we have always made it the subject of a free vote in this House, for example—and the commission reached a sensible compromise by recognising the current anomaly, but saying that a new process will have to be devised to deal with that. I hope that process can involve parliamentarians and civic groups beyond the two Parliaments, which might in some way build a measure of consensus.

[Sir Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con)]

Unfortunately, there appear to be a number of lacunae, inconsistencies and unanswered questions in the report. If we rush this process, we are in danger of throwing petrol on the embers of English resentment and Scottish separatism. I pose one question out of many: paragraph 95(5)(a) states:

“The Scottish Government’s borrowing powers should be agreed by the Scottish and UK Governments”.

Does this mean that their borrowing will be underwritten by the UK Parliament?

[Mr Carmichael]

No. Obviously, if the Scottish Government were to borrow, they would have the liability under the borrowing powers. On the hon. Gentleman’s earlier observations about what he perceives as lacunae, the resulting measure, when introduced as legislation in the Queen’s Speech following the election, will still be subject to the full scrutiny of this House and the other place, whoever is standing at the Dispatch Box at the time. I am confident of the abilities of this House and the other place, and that what we will have at the end of the day will work.

[Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co-op)]

If the Secretary of State manages to visit the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock (Sandra Osborne), he would be most welcome to cross the border into Kilmarnock and Loudon—of course, Robert Burns lived in the village of Mauchline and had his works published in Kilmarnock. Will the Secretary of State confirm that the powers that will now be given, in addition to welfare and taxation, include responsibility for the Work programme? That will give the Scottish Parliament a real opportunity to add to its existing powers in respect of economic development in order to get people back to work, which is what many of our constituents will be concerned about.

[Mr Carmichael]

I would be delighted to join the hon. Lady in her constituency as part of this grand Burns tour that I seem to have signed up to—I just hope that Opposition Members will not start complaining about the cost. She will see that the Work programme is to be devolved, which I think is sensible. Indeed, it was something John Swinney spoke about many times when I shared platforms with him during the referendum campaign. They have the powers; they just have to get on and use them.

[Sir Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)]

Should not those of us who believe in lower taxes welcome this proposal’s potential to encourage a healthy competition between London and Edinburgh over which sets the lowest rate of income tax? If Edinburgh sets a significantly higher rate than this Parliament, there will be a movement of talent from Scotland down south. Likewise, if we set a higher rate than Edinburgh, people will start moving to Scotland. That competition should hopefully lead to lower rates of tax.

[Mr Carmichael]

That is indeed one of the possible consequences. The truth of the matter is that the Scottish Parliament will, for the first time since it was set up, control both sides of the books for the areas for which it has responsibility; how it spends money and how it raises it. It will then have to be accountable to the voters for how it taxes them. I think that in time, that will have a transformative effect on Scottish politics.

[Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab)]

In 2011 the people of Wales had a referendum on greater powers. The Secretary of State might wish to consider the arguments for giving the people of Scotland a referendum on these powers, if for no other reason than to flush out exactly where the SNP stands on the Smith commission.

[Mr Carmichael]

That is an interesting idea, but the real purpose of proceeding according to the timetable we have set out is that we will be able to put the proposals to the people next May, which will be the referendum that matters.

[Mr Alan Reid (Argyll and Bute) (LD)]

I congratulate my right hon. Friend, who is implementing a long-standing Liberal policy and succeeding where Gladstone did not. I am delighted to see that the Crown Estate is to be devolved and that the Smith commission recommends further devolution of its assets to the island authorities. Will he support devolution of the Crown Estate’s assets to other coastal and island communities, such as those in Argyll and Bute?

[Mr Speaker]

It is a matter of debate whether the Secretary of State is as great a man as Gladstone, but thankfully his statements to the House are notably shorter.

[Mr Carmichael]

I do not think there is much debate, Mr Speaker; I do not set myself up for that claim. On the Crown Estate, my hon. Friend is right: that is one of the report’s most significant proposals for our coastal and island communities. Indeed, it requires the Scottish Government, when they have devolved control of the Crown Estate, to pass it on to coastal and island communities. We all know what happens when power is devolved to Edinburgh: it tends to stick there. Scotland now has, as a result of seven years of SNP government, one of the most centralised Governments anywhere in Europe. The report mentions Orkney, Shetland and the Western Isles, as my hon. Friend says, but it begins that recommendation by referring to

“local authority areas such as”.

I think that could well include his constituency.

[Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP)]

I too welcome the Smith commission’s proposals for Scotland. [Hon. Members: “Hooray!”] I will support any process that transfers powers from unelected Tories in Scotland to the Scottish people. Does the Secretary of State even start to recognise the palpable sense of disappointment that exists in Scotland this morning, whether among Scottish people who wanted maximum devolution and expected something close to home rule following the type of talk in the run-up in the referendum, whether among those in the voluntary sector who expected the full transferral of welfare powers, or whether among those in the trade union movement who wanted real job-creating powers and say that they are underwhelmed by the proposals? While we all welcome the proposals, does he at least start to recognise the disappointment at the fact that they could have gone much further?

[Mr Carmichael]

I fully accept that the hon. Gentleman wants independence and always has done. That is why we had a vote. It pains me to tell him that he lost, however, and it is about time that he and his party came to terms with that. For him to try to use this process to get independence by the back door does not respect the views of the Scottish people as expressed on 18 September. It is perhaps about time that he thought he has a duty to speak for the 60.19% of his own constituents who rejected independence on 18 September.

[Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con)]

In the fall-out from the recent Scottish referendum—in which only people in Scotland had a vote, but the people of England, Wales and Northern Ireland were bound by the result—the Scottish nationalists now object even to the prospect of a UK-wide referendum on our membership of the European Union, claiming that Scotland would be bound by the British consensus. Does my right hon. Friend detect, as I do, more than a whiff of tartan hypocrisy in this stance?

[Mr Carmichael]

I suspect, Mr Speaker, that if I used the word “hypocrisy” you would call me back into order, and for that reason I do not use it.

[Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)]

Of course, as hon. Members have pointed out, this agreement affects all parts of the United Kingdom—Wales, England and Northern Ireland as well as Scotland. Will the Secretary of State explain the implications for the Barnett formula of the tax measures in the agreement? In particular, if the Scottish Parliament decided to reduce the level of income tax, what implications would that have for the Barnett formula?

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Carmichael]

The Barnett formula remains in operation, but only for the portion of the budget going to the Scottish Parliament that is not accounted for by the taxes that are currently reserved here and are going to be devolved. Detailed technical work is currently under way on this between the Treasury and the Scottish Government. Announcements will be made on its practical application in relation to the 2012 powers in fairly short order.

[Iain Stewart (Milton Keynes South) (Con)]

I particularly welcome Lord Smith’s comment in his foreword to the document,

“that neither the Scottish nor UK Governments will lose or gain financially from the act of transferring a power.”

Following on from the remarks of my right hon. Friend the Member for Banbury (Sir Tony Baldry), does that not underline the fact that if a Scottish Government wanted significantly to increase public spending in Scotland, Scottish taxpayers would foot the bill, and that is good for the accountability of Holyrood?

[Mr Carmichael]

I could not agree more. The Scottish Government keep telling us that they want to spend more money; well, now they can, and in order to do so they will have to raise taxes or cut money elsewhere. That is how politics works.

[Roberta Blackman-Woods (City of Durham) (Lab)]

It sounds as though it is thanks to Labour that the Smith commission is proposing such an excellent deal for Scotland. Is the Secretary of State having discussions with his ministerial colleagues about devolving power to English regions via their local authorities?

[Mr Carmichael]

I caution the hon. Lady about seeking to claim too much credit on behalf of her party, or any other. As I said, this required us all to participate in good faith, and we all had to make compromises. No individual party should seek to claim too much credit; it was a joint effort. She knows that I am sympathetic to devolution to parts of England, but a concrete proposal has to be worked out. We did that over many years in Scotland, and I am afraid there is no quick or easy way for her and her communities now to do it for themselves.

[Alec Shelbrooke (Elmet and Rothwell) (Con)]

The Scottish referendum showed without doubt that a large number of people who voted for the SNP may not necessarily have wanted independence. May I urge my right hon. Friend to ensure that, when the SNP wipes out the Labour party next May, it is seen as a rejection of the Labour party rather than a reflection of the need for further devolution or separation?

[Mr Carmichael]

I think we should all be cautious of trying to predict the outcome of next May’s election.

[Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab)]

May I commend the work of all the commissioners on the Smith commission, particularly—not to single anyone out—my hon. Friend the Member for Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East (Gregg McClymont)? There is a perception that politicians do not keep their promises, but the truth is that the solemn promise we made to the Scottish people during the referendum campaign has today been not only delivered, but delivered with bells on. May I encourage the Secretary of State to look seriously at double devolution, to make sure that today’s announcements and the commission report create not just a powerhouse Scottish Parliament, but powerhouse local authorities and, more importantly, powerhouse local communities?

[Mr Carmichael]

Indeed. The hon. Gentleman will see some support for his latter proposition in the report’s foreword, under the heading, “Devolution from the Scottish Parliament”. Lord Smith articulates, in a very measured way, the galloping centralisation we have seen in recent years in the Scottish Government. I appreciate the way in which the hon. Gentleman did not single out the hon. Member for Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East. In the same tone, I should not single out my right hon. Friend the Member for Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk (Michael Moore), who, along with my constituency colleague, Tavish Scott, played a tremendous role in getting this deal.

[Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con)]

In the Scottish referendum, if people voted yes they were voting for full independence, but it now seems that if people voted no they were voting for more independence. Will the Secretary of State explain how those people who wanted the status quo should have voted in the September referendum? Will he personally accept that, as more power is given to the Scottish Parliament, it is unacceptable and unjustifiable for Members of Parliament from Scotland to continue to vote on issues that affect only England?

[Mr Carmichael]

As the Prime Minister himself said this morning, he always said that a vote for no was never going to be a vote for no change. Indeed, when the people of Scotland went to the polling stations, all parties had put out their detailed proposals on what would follow in the event of a no vote. As I have said on a number of occasions today, on the question of constitutional change in England, a process is now under way, led by my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House.

[John Robertson (Glasgow North West) (Lab)]

May I congratulate the right hon. Gentleman and my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow East (Margaret Curran) on their hard work? I also congratulate the six SNP Members in particular—it must have been very difficult for them to compromise on an area on which they do not usually compromise in any shape or form. [Interruption.] Does the Secretary of State agree that now is the time for the Scottish people—the families and friends who were split and the people who did not talk to each other because of grievances caused by the referendum—to get back together and put Scotland first?

[Mr Carmichael]

I apologise for missing the early part of the hon. Gentleman’s question because of the constant sotto voce commentary from the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart).

[Pete Wishart]

I was shouted down!

[Mr Carmichael]

Did I say it was sotto voce? It seems to have ratcheted up a little. The hon. Gentleman had his chance when he was called by you, Mr Speaker.

The hon. Member for Glasgow North West (John Robertson) is absolutely right. This is a time to heal the divisions and bring the people of Scotland together. We had a vote, prior to which we said we would deliver change and today we have told the people of Scotland what that change will be. It is time to get together and use the powers that the Scottish Parliament has and will get, and to use them for the good of the Scottish people and the Scottish economy.

[Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con)]

It is already a tough market for north of England and Yorkshire airports. Does the Secretary of State agree that, if Scotland is going to get flexibility on air passenger duty, north of England and Yorkshire airports have to get it, too?

[Mr Carmichael]

The question is how the Scottish Government choose to use any flexibility they have. If they choose to cut air passenger duty, they will obviously have to cut some public service provision or raise some other tax. The hon. Gentleman should not assume that flexibility only goes one way.

[Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op)]

In Wales, we are required to have a referendum before we have income tax devolution of a much more modest nature. The devolution of income tax in Scotland will have profound implications for migration. In particular, if the Scots lower the top rate of tax, richer people will naturally move to Scotland. If unemployment goes up in Scotland, they will raise tax at the lower rate and reduce public services, because they do not have compensatory borrowing powers. Given that, should there not be a referendum of not just the 8% of people who live in Scotland, but of the rest of the UK? We should not be driven by the 4% of people who voted for independence; the profound implications for migration, taxation and all the rest of it should be decided by the whole of the United Kingdom.

[Mr Carmichael]

That is not how we have done these things in the years since the late 1970s, when such decisions were first mooted. The hon. Gentleman has outlined all sorts of scenarios, many of which are possible, and some of which we may even see. That is what we mean when we say that the United Kingdom changed for ever on 18 September. The duty is on all of us in the political parties and the body politic to come up to the mark and to meet that change. As far as referendums are concerned, I am afraid that I have had enough to be going on with.

[Mark Hunter (Cheadle) (LD)]

May I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State on his considerable achievement in helping to secure this historic agreement? I also pay tribute to his predecessor, my right hon. Friend the Member for Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk (Michael Moore). I invite the Secretary of State to agree with me that, as the hon. Member for Nottingham North (Mr Allen) said earlier, what is good enough for the Scots is good enough for the English, too. Does the Secretary of State support a similar constitutional arrangement for England?

[Mr Carmichael]

I thank my hon. Friend for referring to me and my right hon. Friend the Member for Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk (Michael Moore). My hon. Friend is right to say that constitutional change has to come to other parts of the United Kingdom. However, it is not for me to tell the people of England how they want to govern themselves. They have to have that conversation and make the decision for themselves.

[Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)]

Will the Secretary of State confirm that the amount of revenue raised by income tax in Scotland will not affect the amount paid to Scotland under the Barnett formula?

[Mr Carmichael]

No, the amount taken from income tax will now be divorced from the Barnett formula. The Barnett formula will operate for that part of the public expenditure grant to Scotland and the Scottish Parliament that remains after that process.

[Mr Andrew Turner (Isle of Wight) (Con)]

If legislation on elections is a Scottish matter, does that mean that Scotland decides who gets a vote in Scotland, or is that only so for the Scottish Parliament, while Westminster decides who gets a Westminster vote?

[Mr Carmichael]

That is in fact the case. That matter is dealt with in some detail by Lord Smith in his report. The responsibility in relation to elections to local authorities and to the Scottish Parliament will be devolved to the Scottish Parliament. However, this House will retain control over elections to it.

[Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab)]

I do not envy the Secretary of State his task of going in January to all of the parts of Scotland where Robert Burns dallied and romanced. The important point, however, is that a lot of people in Scotland want to be involved in this debate and discussion. They want to be fully informed about what is happening, not just to be told what they think or to be told that there is some form of betrayal. What arrangements will the Secretary of State make to ensure that people are fully involved in these debates?

[Mr Carmichael]

The hon. Lady is right to highlight that one of the great successes of the whole referendum experience was that we got the widest possible range of engagement across Scottish society. We have to make sure that that does not now just wither away; we have to do what we can to harness and nurture it. I recently met representatives of the Scottish Council for Voluntary Organisations, the Scottish Trades Union Congress, the Church of Scotland and the National Union of Students to discuss exactly that process. Not everything of this sort has to be done by Government and through the party political process. The most effective civic engagement is that which grows out of civic groups themselves.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

Scotland receives from English taxpayers an additional annual public subsidy, over and above what any English region receives, not because there is an extra level of deprivation, but simply because Scotland is Scotland. What proportion of the funds that are given to Scotland under the Barnett formula will be affected by the ceding of tax-raising powers to the Scottish Parliament?

[Mr Carmichael]

It was of common accord between the parties that the Barnett formula would remain. As I have made clear to the House, the amount of money that goes to Scotland under the Barnett formula will be reduced, because what is taken in taxation directly by the Scottish Parliament will be taken out of the equation. It is an important truth that, although the Barnett formula produces some anomalies, no party has ever been able to produce a better option.

[Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab)]

Communities across Britain want power to be held and wielded closer to them. I therefore welcome Scotland’s increased self-determination. However, we in the north-east also want more powers to be devolved to us. The Secretary of State told my hon. Friend the Member for City of Durham (Roberta Blackman-Woods) that there were no easy answers, but will he at least confirm that he is looking for solutions? Specifically, how will he enable us to ensure that Newcastle international airport can compete with Scottish airports in respect of air passenger duty?

[Mr Carmichael]

The Government have already embarked on that process through the programme of city deals and growth deals over the past four and a half years. I do believe that there needs to be greater devolution to all corners of the United Kingdom. My family stretches to the south-west of England, where my in-laws come from. They understand that the needs of people in the south-west of England are as badly served by the conventional centralised model of government from Whitehall as the needs of the rest of my family in Scotland ever were. It is now for the hon. Lady and her communities to come forward with a coherent plan for exactly what that change should be.

[Mr Robin Walker (Worcester) (Con)]

Further to that answer, in which the Secretary of State talked about devolution to all parts of the United Kingdom, does he not accept that when addressing issues such as English votes for English laws, which many of us feel passionately and strongly about, and the balance between local and central Government, it should be this sovereign Parliament of the United Kingdom that takes the final decisions, not some remote constitutional convention, as is suggested by those on the Opposition Front Bench?

[Mr Carmichael]

Perhaps I should explain how constitutional conventions work. A constitutional convention brings together the political parties and the voices of business, the trade unions, civic groups, the Churches and all the rest of it. They build the consensus, as they did in Scotland, but it was this House that passed the Scotland Acts in 1998 and 2012. There is no question of our subcontracting legislative responsibility.

[Mike Gapes (Ilford South) (Lab/Co-op)]

The commission and the parties recognised that foreign affairs would remain a reserved matter. The report refers to vital “national infrastructure” in respect of the security and defence of the United Kingdom. Will the Secretary of State confirm that all parties involved in the Smith commission, including the SNP and the Greens, signed up to that? Will he therefore have discussions with the Scottish Government to make it clear that it is this House and this United Kingdom that are responsible for the foreign and defence policy of our country?

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Carmichael]

I confirm that it was an agreement of all the parties. I hope that all parties will demonstrate good faith and honour that agreement. Obviously, I cannot account for everyone.

[Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con)]

Apparently, home rule for Scotland and the creation of a powerful Scottish Parliament can be decided on in the blink of an eye, but the issue of English votes for English laws needs to be kicked into the long grass, with a constitutional convention. Is it not the truth that, unless these proposals go along with English votes for English laws, my constituents in Brigg and Goole and the people of England will continue to get the fluffy end of the lollipop?

[Mr Carmichael]

Well, there’s no accounting for taste I suppose.

In the blink of an eye? I have been a political activist for 34 years, and this issue has dominated Scottish political discourse during that time, and I suspect for some time before that. A substantial amount of work was done on today’s proposals by the Liberal Democrats, the Conservatives and Labour before the referendum, so it is not a rushed or ill-considered piece of work but has considerable background. On English votes for English laws, the hon. Gentleman should be careful about devolving power within Parliament without tackling the same question within the Executive, as that would risk creating another instability.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

The signature policy of the Smith commission concerns the full devolution of income tax receipts. The Wales Bill, which completed its passage through the House of Lords on Monday, devolves only a small partial element of income tax receipts, and only following another referendum many years down the line. When will Westminster stop treating Wales like a second-class nation?

[Mr Carmichael]

I thought the only grievance we would get today would be from the Scottish nationalists; I had forgotten we had Plaid Cymru here as well. I commend to the hon. Gentleman the positive approach taken by all parties in building a consensus in Wales. We have always known that for different historical reasons, devolution across the different nations in this country emerges at different paces, which is absolutely right. If he wants more progress, he should try to learn from the Scottish nationalists—or at least from what they were doing before today—and work with other parties to build that consensus.

[Mr John Denham (Southampton, Itchen) (Lab)]

Scotland will get what Scotland wants, but when will England get what it wants? Does the Secretary of State agree that we need much more radical change in Westminster than has currently been contemplated, more radical devolution within England than has currently been delivered or offered, and a much more open, inclusive and democratic process than that being led by the Leader of the House?

[Mr Carmichael]

I am confident that England will get what England wants when England decides exactly what it is she wants.

UK Government: Scotland

Alistair Carmichael Excerpts

Thursday 16th October 2014 Commons Chamber

[The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr Alistair Carmichael)]

I congratulate the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown) on securing today’s debate. Further, I congratulate, and commend him, on the role he played in the course of the independence referendum campaign. Nobody who heard his speeches and witnessed his passion and enthusiasm would have been in any doubt about the importance of the contribution he made in securing a united future for us all on 18 September. I know that he, like me, felt that he was fighting a campaign not just for himself but for his children and their generation. I venture to suggest that his contribution to it gives him a legacy of which they, in time, will come to be truly proud.

I want to make a few observations on the general state of the debate today. Shortly thereafter I will come on to address the points that have been made by the right hon. Gentleman in his speech. This has been a week when the topic of the referendum and its consequences have never been far from the Chamber. This is the fourth day this week, in fact, that I have been at the Dispatch Box. I welcome that. It is a good and right thing for the United Kingdom Parliament to be considering this issue.

Right hon. and hon. Members across the House have expressed their support for our still United Kingdom, a good illustration of what it means to be part of a country that shares risks and pools its resources. Scotland has come through years of fundamental uncertainty. The referendum outcome has put an end to it. With a positive choice from more than 2 million people in Scotland to remain within the United Kingdom, now is the time for us all to put aside party interests and to work to build a better United Kingdom for all: a future with a strong Scottish Parliament within a secure United Kingdom, because that was the clear verdict handed down by the people of Scotland.

The First Minister and the Deputy First Minister said during the campaign that, in their view, the referendum was a once-in-a-generation, perhaps once-in-a-lifetime, event. Both Governments agreed from the outset that the objective was to hold a referendum that would be legal, fair and decisive. That referendum was delivered. But decisive means that a decision has been made, not that the question should be asked again in three years’ time. Had the result gone the other way, it would have been considered unacceptable for those of us who campaigned to keep the United Kingdom together to demand a re-run in 2017, and so it is wrong now for nationalists to manoeuvre for that outcome. People voted clearly and decisively to reject the Scottish National party’s core proposition. It is not for anyone to tell them that they got their answer wrong. Uncertainty will only try people’s patience and sap business confidence, just as it did in Montreal. The SNP has been given an answer by voters in Scotland. Now is the time to acknowledge and accept it and work in the interests of 100% of the people of Scotland.

[Pete Wishart]

I grateful to the Secretary of State for giving way, unlike the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown). It took two hours for the Prime Minister to come up with English votes for English laws after the referendum. It has now taken four weeks for the Barnett formula. Seventy Members of Parliament have signed a motion for a debate for Barnett to be reviewed. Barnett was in the vow. Is Barnett safe?

[Mr Carmichael]

Yes. Barnett is safe, because it was in the vow. I caution the hon. Gentleman. He seeks time and again to suggest that, somehow or another, the vow made by the party leaders—[Interruption.] The hon. Gentleman asked his question, now he can sit and listen to the answer. He says time and again that somehow the Prime Minister, the Leader of the Opposition and the Deputy Prime Minister were not acting in good faith. He seeks at every turn to undermine public confidence in the vow. If he still wants to pursue the cause of independence, and if he wishes not to accept the verdict of the people of Scotland expressed on 18 Sept, that is fine. But if he and his party are taking part in the Smith commission in good faith, frankly they should accept that all of us are doing so in good faith.

For the SNP to accept the verdict of the people, they must accept that the Smith commission’s work will not deliver the content of its White Paper or other outcomes detrimental to the core unity of the UK family—and this comes to the heart of the contribution from the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath. The SNP will not get independence by the backdoor. The vow given by the party leaders during the referendum campaign and the timetable that he and others supported are designed to strengthen Scotland within a secure United Kingdom. That is what people voted for, and that is what they will get—more powers for the Scottish Parliament within a modernised United Kingdom and delivered to the timetable we promised. In fairness, the soon-to-be First Minister has acknowledged in her party’s submission to the Smith commission that the outcome of this joint working will not be independence. It is important that negotiations take place with a genuine recognition of that fact.

The right hon. Gentleman listed 16 areas in which agreement could easily be sought. He will forgive me if I do not address all 16 now, not least because, with the Government having tasked Lord Smith with constructing a consensus, it would be wrong for me, as a Minister, to second-guess the outcome. However, the Smith remit states that his heads of agreement should be consistent with respect for the decision of the people of Scotland on 18 September. In other words, they must be consistent with the continuation of the constitutional framework and integrity necessary to maintain a United Kingdom. The four nations within the family must continue to operate as a single country.

I also draw to the right hon. Gentleman’s attention the terms of the Command Paper published on Monday. Chapter 2 reminds us of the principles that underpin the Scotland Act 2012: any proposal should first have cross-party support; it should be based on evidence; and it should not be to the detriment of other parts of the UK. On all three points, if Smith came up with proposals that undermined our constitutional integrity, they would not be consistent with the framework that we have set him in the Command Paper. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will take comfort from that.

I have always said that—and this is truer today than it has ever been—the independence referendum offered us the opportunity not just to finish the job of devolution to the Scottish Parliament by giving it the extra powers the right hon. Gentleman and I believe it needs in relation to taxation, welfare and so on, but to implement a process of constitutional change across the whole of the UK. I respectfully say to him and the rest of the House that ultimately the logical conclusion of this journey is a federal structure within the UK. The only way to achieve that in our lifetime is by building the strongest, broadest consensus, and that requires a constitutional convention of the sort to which he referred. Indeed, he and I both know, because we have been around this course several times in Scotland, that that is the way to deliver constitutional change.

That requires us to bring together others besides just the political parties—it will always fail if it includes only the political parties, because unfortunately they always see things through the prism of their own self-interest. For that reason, we have to bring in wider voices—civic society, the business community, the trade unions, the Churches and just interested citizens who have something to say. It is for that reason that, as somebody who passionately believes in the United Kingdom, I see an opportunity opening out to us now to build a new constitutional architecture. In that respect, I very much hope that the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath will remain engaged in the debate, because I believe he has a substantial contribution to make to it.

We have an unprecedented opportunity. The Smith commission can move forward through the collective endeavour of all five of Scotland’s biggest political parties. Never before has so wide a spectrum of parties come together in Scotland’s interests. That is something to applaud and welcome. All those taking part in this work must be willing to compromise, as the right hon. Gentleman has said today—again, I commend him for the thought that he has obviously put into this already. We have an opportunity to harness the energy of both sides of what was a quite remarkable debate and, as a result, secure a better deal for all of Scotland. The Commission will look at serious and weighty issues: taxation, welfare and the role of the Scottish Parliament in our public life. The challenge is to empower Holyrood further and, as a result, make it more accountable to those who elect it. Lord Smith of Kelvin is an able man facing a considerable task. With genuine good will on all sides, he is also the man who can see that task through.

Of course, this process is not without consequences for the rest of the United Kingdom. The right hon. Gentleman has already touched on the subject of English votes for English laws. It is clear from the debate we had in the House on Tuesday, and indeed from contributions at Scottish questions yesterday, that that will be a live debate for some time to come. As I said at Scottish questions yesterday, in my view it is a solution that, if seen as an end in itself rather than a step along the road, risks creating new problems to replace the ones that already exist in our current constitutional settlement. However, this is a genuine issue that requires genuine consideration within that wider context. The debate itself showed the strength of feeling and brought to light the complexities and intricacies of finding a solution that will strengthen the United Kingdom’s democracy. Again, the one thing that was apparent at the end of six and a half hours’ debate—I was here for nearly all of it—was that there is not yet any clear consensus in England on what the future shape of the constitutional architecture should be.

[Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co-op)]

indicated assent.

[Mr Carmichael]

I see nods coming from the hon. Lady, who also sat through most of that debate.

[Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab)]

I know that time is short, and I appreciate the time the right hon. Gentleman has spent at the Dispatch Box this week re-emphasising that the vow and the timetable are on track, but will he at least acknowledge that the Prime Minister’s clumsy, inappropriate and highly political speech on the morning after the referendum has opened up the door for these kinds of questions to be asked? If he had not done that and had abided by every single part of that vow, we probably would not have been in this position this week.

[Mr Carmichael]

What I would say to the hon. Gentleman is that I think the Prime Minister was reflecting questions that are being asked in other parts of the United Kingdom. However, I am able to give him an assurance from the Dispatch Box today—this is an assurance that repeats the comments of the Prime Minister himself—that, as my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for North East Fife (Sir Menzies Campbell) put it the other day, change in Scotland will not be held up while England catches up. These two debates obviously have issues that have a symmetry and run in parallel, but one debate will not be allowed to hold up the progress of the delivery of the vow in Scotland. As I have said, it is pretty clear that we have already done much of the work and built much of the consensus there that is still required in the rest of the United Kingdom.

[Pete Wishart]

That’s all right, then.

[Mr Carmichael]

I am glad that the hon. Gentleman accepts at last that the United Kingdom parties are proceeding in good faith. It would be a shame if he were unable ever to stand up and say it in public. [Interruption.] We are getting on with it. The hon. Gentleman sits there chuntering from a sedentary position, but he ignores the fact that we have already delivered, ahead of timetable, the Command Paper that was part of the vow. He might not like to accept that we are delivering—that we are doing what he said—but he cannot deny it and that is why he remains in his seat.

In the few seconds that remain to me, let me say that it is clear that the referendum was won decisively. It might not have been welcomed by the nationalists, but everybody else was pleased that we got the decision that we wanted and that will indeed be good for our children in the future as the years progress.

Question put and agreed to.

Scotland within the UK

Alistair Carmichael Excerpts

Monday 13th October 2014 Commons Chamber

[The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr Alistair Carmichael)]

With permission, Mr Speaker, I wish to make a statement to the House about the position of Scotland within the United Kingdom.

As hon. Members will know, on 18 September the people of Scotland voted in a referendum on independence. I am pleased to report to the House that, by a margin of 10.6%, or by 55.3% to 44.7%, the people of Scotland voted to remain part of the United Kingdom.

The referendum was underpinned by the Edinburgh agreement, signed between the United Kingdom Government and the Scottish Government in October 2012. That agreement ensured that the referendum would have a clear legal base, that it would be conducted in a way that commanded the confidence of both Parliaments, Governments and people, and, most importantly, that it would deliver a fair, legal and decisive expression of the views of people in Scotland—a result that everyone would respect.

More than 2 million people made a positive choice for Scotland to remain part of the United Kingdom. The franchise for the referendum included, for the first time ever in this country, 16 and 17-year-olds. At a time when our elections have suffered from declining participation, the turnout across Scotland was nearly 85%—something that I am sure all across the House would welcome. Politics works best when people take an active interest in supporting the things that matter to them most. It also adds emphasis to the democratic result.

The decision of the people of Scotland was clear: they voted to continue to be part of this family of nations; they voted to continue to work alongside people in England, Wales and Northern Ireland; and they voted for all of us to remain together as a United Kingdom. It is important that everyone now accepts that result. We should all move on from being part of the 55% or the 45% to working for 100% of the people of Scotland.

That is what we are doing. The vow made by the Prime Minister, the Deputy Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition during the referendum campaign is already being put into practice. The Smith commission, chaired by Lord Smith of Kelvin, was up and running on 19 September. He will convene cross-party talks to reach agreement on the proposals for further devolution to Scotland. His terms of reference make it clear that the recommendations will deliver more financial, welfare and taxation powers, strengthening the Scottish Parliament within the United Kingdom. But that process is not just about the parties; the referendum opened up civic engagement in Scotland across sectors, communities and organisations, and Lord Smith has made it clear that he wants to hear from all those groups to ensure that the recommendations he produces are informed by views from right across Scottish society.

By St Andrew’s day, Lord Smith will publish “Heads of Agreement”. The Government are committed to turning those recommendations into draft clauses by Burns night 2015. The timetable is demanding, but that is because the demand is there in Scotland to see change delivered, and it is a demand we shall meet. On Friday 10 October, all five main Scottish parties submitted their proposals to the commission. In the case of the Labour, Conservative and Liberal Democrat parties, the proposals reflect the positions published by the parties prior to the referendum campaign. The Scottish National party and the Green party agreed to join the cross-party talks after the referendum, and they too submitted proposals on Friday—a development that we welcome.

Today I can confirm that the Government are meeting the first step in the further devolution process by publishing a Command Paper. The Command Paper we are presenting today provides a clear, factual summary of the proposals for further devolution in Scotland published by each of the three pro-UK parties, as we committed to do during the referendum campaign. Those plans encompass a broad, complex and often interlinked range of topics, from taxation to borrowing and from welfare to regulation. To inform and assist consideration of each of those proposals, the Command Paper also sets out factual information about the current situation in the key policy areas, as well as presenting some background information about devolution in Scotland to date. The publication is wholly without prejudice to the work of the Smith commission, which will look at proposals from all the parties and others and seek to establish the ground for consensus. This will be the first time in the development of Scotland’s constitutional future that all its main parties are participating in a process to consider further devolution. It is a truly historic moment, and one that I very much welcome.

With all five main Scottish parties working together in collaboration, I am confident that we will reach an agreement that will provide the enhanced powers to the people of Scotland and accountability for the Scottish Parliament while retaining the strength and benefits of being part of the United Kingdom. That was the message heard loud and clear during the referendum campaign, and it is one that this Government, and all Scotland’s political parties, are committed to supporting.

[Margaret Curran (Glasgow East) (Lab)]

I thank the Secretary of State for advance sight of his statement.

Only three weeks ago, in unprecedented numbers, the people of Scotland voted to remain part of the United Kingdom. It was a historic decision, and the result was emphatically clear: the Scottish people voted for pooling and sharing resources across the United Kingdom; they voted to continue with devolution; and they voted for a stronger Scottish Parliament. I wish today to pay particular tribute to my right hon. Friends the Members for Edinburgh South West (Mr Darling) and for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown), who put the case with so much passion throughout the campaign.

Following the referendum, we can say with confidence that devolution is the settled will of the Scottish people and that we shall have a stronger Scottish Parliament. A vital part of the campaign was the commitment made by the Leader of the Opposition, the Prime Minister and the Deputy Prime Minister to have a strengthened and empowered Scottish Parliament. Led by my right hon. Friend the Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath, we guaranteed a clear and definitive timetable for further powers, and I am pleased that the Secretary of State has published the Command Paper ahead of time today. Can the Secretary of State confirm that a motion now appears on the Order Paper detailing that timetable?

The process now ongoing under the leadership of Lord Smith of Kelvin will guarantee that more powers will come to the Scottish Parliament. The Labour party will enter the talks this week in a spirit of partnership and co-operation with the other parties. We will apply a simple test to reaching a conclusion: what outcome respects the result of the referendum and will make the people of Scotland better off? The people of Scotland have voted for pooling, sharing of resources and greater prosperity, and that should guide the commission’s discussions.

The referendum attracted the highest level of participation of any national poll ever held in Scotland. It is important that, as we develop this next stage of devolution, we reflect that. The Secretary of State has mentioned how voluntary organisations can participate. Will he lay out how individual members of the public can contribute to that process too and tell the House how Lord Smith intends to engage with people across every area of Scotland?

We debated the agreement for the referendum two years ago, as the Secretary of State said. At that time, I said that we would spend the campaign vigorously defending devolution from those who would seek to bring it to an end. Over these last two years, that is exactly what the Labour party has done. Not only does this campaign conclude with the devolution settlement secured; that settlement will be strengthened. We will continue to argue that the best future for Scottish people comes from pooling and sharing resources inside the United Kingdom and from a powerhouse Parliament that can again change the lives of people across Scotland. That is what the people of Scotland want, and it is what the Labour party will fight for.

[Mr Carmichael]

I thank the hon. Lady for the very constructive tone of her response. Working with people across parties has been an interesting experience, as it always is in Scotland, and it is clear that the process of cross-party working will have to continue if the will of the Scottish people expressed on 18 September is to be honoured. That will become all the more challenging, although I still believe it will be more effective as a result, for having members of the Scottish National party and Scottish Green party on board. A high price will be paid by any political party that does not enter the Smith commission and the process that follows in good faith.

I echo the hon. Lady’s comments about her right hon. Friends the Members for Edinburgh South West (Mr Darling) and for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown). All Members from Scotland, and a number from beyond it, played their role in giving leadership across the referendum campaign, but her two right hon. Friends indeed played a particularly important and significant role.

The motion on the Order Paper honouring the timetable has indeed been tabled. On the approach of the Labour party and the Government, I should remind the House that under the Scotland Act 2012 any proposal should have cross-party support, should be based on evidence and should not be to the detriment of other parts of the UK. It is the Government’s view, as expressed in the Command Paper today, that that should also be the guiding principle in relation to the current process.

[Dr Liam Fox (North Somerset) (Con)]

Does the Secretary of State accept that throughout the House many believe that further devolution to Scotland can occur only if there is a rebalancing of the entire constitutional settlement, with English votes on English issues? Does he agree that those who say that that would create two classes of MP are being disingenuous? The House has had an imbalance since devolution; many Members have been able to vote on issues such as health and education in England without having to answer to a single voter for those decisions.

[Mr Carmichael]

I have said many times that the completion of the job of devolution in Scotland and the process we are now undertaking would unlock the door to further constitutional change across the whole of the United Kingdom, and I believe that to be the case. Let me be clear, however, that the timetable we have set out here will be honoured. If other parts of the United Kingdom are able to take advantage and to move along in our slipstream, so to speak, that will be to their advantage, but we will not delay the implementation of the proposals in Scotland for other parts of the UK.

[Anas Sarwar (Glasgow Central) (Lab)]

Scotland has decided and spoken, and it is now the accepted sovereign will of the Scottish people to work in partnership with the rest of the United Kingdom and support it through devolution. One of the lessons from the referendum campaign, though, is that although our country may not be broken, people believe that our political, social and economic model is broken and does not work for ordinary people. That is why I urge the Secretary of State and, indeed, the entire Government not to fall into the trap of thinking that we can just talk about which politician has what power in what building; more important is what politicians choose to do with the powers they have to make a genuine difference to people’s lives. Will the Secretary of State confirm that the process being talked about is separate from the process being mentioned by others—that of English votes for English laws?

[Mr Carmichael]

On the hon. Gentleman’s latter point, I think I have already made that clear. I very much hope that once we have done this piece of work, we will in Scotland at last be able to move on to using the powers of the Parliament rather than just talking about them.

[Sir Malcolm Bruce (Gordon) (LD)]

rose—

--- Later in debate ---

[Sir Menzies Campbell]

Does my right hon. Friend understand the general welcome there has been in Scotland for the fact that change in Scotland should not be held up to enable England to catch up? Having agreed that position, is it not right for the Government, and indeed for him today, to say that, although not in lockstep, there will undoubtedly be progress on constitutional change for the other nations that form the United Kingdom? Particularly with regard to any possible change in the role of Scottish MPs, does he agree that however superficially attractive it might appear, changes to the Standing Orders would be inappropriate, and that such a change to the role of Scottish MPs should undoubtedly be enshrined in primary legislation?

[Mr Carmichael]

My right hon. and learned Friend is entirely correct about that. This should be something that does more than just affect just the Standing Orders of this House. Indeed, even if it were to be done in that very narrow way, he would, I suspect, be one of the first to remind me that the House guards very jealously, through your office, Mr Speaker, its right to determine its Standing Orders for itself. It has never normally been the practice for Government to lead on these matters.

[Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) (Lab)]

Does the Secretary of State agree that the Smith commission process will require compromise and good faith from all political parties in Scotland? Does he also agree that in the agreement that comes we must see the sharing of resources across the United Kingdom? Is not that in keeping with the spirit of the way in which the Scottish people voted on 18 September?

[Mr Carmichael]

I think Lord Smith has already made it clear that he is not going to deliver independence by the back door. Whatever proposals he comes up with on St Andrew’s night in relation to further devolution, they will be in the context of there continuing to be a United Kingdom, and the constitutional integrity of the United Kingdom will be respected.

[Mr Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con)]

Does my right hon. Friend agree that we ought to learn some lessons from this near-death experience of the United Kingdom and the fact that we did not intend the winning margin to be as narrow as 10%? Does he also agree that if we are to avoid another referendum, Westminster politics and Westminster politicians must raise the tone of debate with our Scottish counterparts in order to ensure that we develop more of a relationship of mutual respect, with less opportunity for the nationalists to make mischief?

[Mr Carmichael]

There are indeed many lessons to be learned from this, and their full extent will probably not be apparent for some time to come. This statement is an important part of the process, because it is very important that the Government, with the official Opposition as well, are able to demonstrate to the people of Scotland that we are making good the commitment that we made in the course of the referendum campaign. Politicians doing what they say they will do in that way is probably the most important thing we can do to restore faith in politics.

[Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP)]

The Secretary of State is, of course, right: the referendum was an incredible, transformational event that gripped and energised our whole nation. I am sure he will want to join me in congratulating the Scottish people on the way in which they went about that business. He is also right to say that Scotland is moving on. According to one opinion poll, two thirds of the Scottish people want devolution maximum—everything devolved, other than foreign affairs and defence. Three quarters have said that they want all taxation devolved to Scotland. This is the thing, isn’t it? There might be a Command Paper, but the people in charge of this process are the Scottish people themselves and we will be judged by their good judgment on what they want for their future.

[Mr Carmichael]

May I say again that I welcome the participation of the hon. Gentleman’s party in the Smith process? I very much hope—in fact, I believe—that that is being done in good faith. However, perhaps the hon. Gentleman should take heed of the 60.19% of the people in his own area who voted to remain part of the United Kingdom. If he tries to subvert the Smith process by getting independence through the back door, as others have said, he will pay a heavy price.

[Sir Malcolm Rifkind (Kensington) (Con)]

Should we not all be grateful to the Scottish National party for having called the referendum? Has it not in fact provided an opportunity for the Scottish people in the 21st century to show that they have come to the same conclusion as their ancestors in 1707 that the best interests of all the peoples of this island are to have a British citizenship in a United Kingdom?

[Mr Carmichael]

There are, indeed, occasions when we should be grateful to the Scottish National party; they are few and far between, but this may, in the way the right hon. and learned Gentleman describes it, be one of them. It was not, of course, the Scottish National party that called the referendum; it was an agreement between Her Majesty’s Government here and the Scottish Government in Edinburgh—the Edinburgh agreement—that gave the basis for it to happen. It would be helpful for the SNP leadership to now make it clear that we have met the terms of the Edinburgh agreement, that the decision was fair, legal and decisive, and that, accordingly, we will not revisit the process.

[Gregg McClymont (Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East) (Lab)]

As a Labour nominee to the Smith commission, may I welcome the Secretary of State’s constructive comments? In that spirit of constructive dialogue, as we approach the debate about further devolution will he consider bringing forward the public information campaign on the raft of tax powers that are to be transferred to the Scottish Parliament by 2016?

[Mr Carmichael]

I wish the hon. Gentleman and his colleagues well on the Smith commission; he has a job of work to do, but he is very well qualified to do it. I will give consideration to his question about our public information campaign on the powers already coming from the 2012 Act.

[Sir Hugh Robertson (Faversham and Mid Kent) (Con)]

The Secretary of State is to be commended for introducing the Command Paper in such a timely fashion. Has any thought been given to the lessons learned from this campaign, particularly whether a simple majority of 50% plus one is sufficient for a matter of such far-reaching constitutional implications?

[Mr Carmichael]

I have thought of little else in the past few weeks. I know that when referendum processes are undertaken in other parts of the world a debate often takes places on the point raised by the right hon. Gentleman. My view continues to be that 50% plus one should be the threshold for any referendum in a democracy.

[Mr John Denham (Southampton, Itchen) (Lab)]

It is clear that Scotland will now get what Scotland wants, and so England must get what England wants. The Secretary of State has outlined a process through which the debate about Scotland’s future reached every corner of Scottish society. Does he agree that, in determining our future, England must have that same opportunity and that to push changes through a narrow Cabinet Committee on an artificially short time scale would be absolutely unacceptable?

[Mr Carmichael]

In relation to the work of the Cabinet Committee, there is not of course a time scale, except that we are looking towards the next general election in May 2015. I would say to the right hon. Gentleman that we are perhaps more familiar with the process in Scotland than in the rest of the United Kingdom. We have been round this course at least twice: first with the constitutional convention, and then with the Calman commission in 2008. On each occasion, we brought together political parties and the voices of business, trade unions, churches, local authorities and others to build consensus, and then we implemented it. That is the way that people are best guaranteed to get the constitutional change they want.

[Mrs Cheryl Gillan (Chesham and Amersham) (Con)]

The Secretary of State knows that, with the advent of devolution under the previous Labour Government, the number of seats for Scotland in this House was reduced from 72 to 59. With further devolution, will he support a reduction in the number of seats for Scotland in this House?

[Mr Carmichael]

No.

[Tom Greatrex (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Lab/Co-op)]

Further to that question, I note that the Secretary of State has made it clear that implications for other parts of the United Kingdom will follow from this process, and some of those points are set out in the Command Paper. Will he clarify that? On page 43 of the Command Paper, it states that the Liberal Democrat commission’s view is that

“the present level of Scottish representation at Westminster should be retained until a federal structure for the UK has been delivered”.

Does that remain his position and that of his Front-Bench colleagues?

[Mr Carmichael]

That remains the position of my party.

[Sir Malcolm Bruce (Gordon) (LD)]

May I first welcome my right hon. Friend’s Command Paper? As somebody who led our party in the constitutional convention, I welcome the fact that the Scottish Parliament will now get proper tax-raising powers. Does he agree that anything more than 50% looks a lot like home rule and a shared partnership? To those who want devolution within England, may I say, “You have our support, but it is quite difficult to support something that is unclear”? We need a constitutional convention. I suggest that devolution has in every case been accompanied by electoral reform and proportionality, and that should also be a condition in England.

[Mr Carmichael]

It is an important point that devolution has in every case been accompanied by electoral reform, and that institutions to which power is devolved are always elected proportionately. I cannot add a great deal to my answer to the right hon. Member for Southampton, Itchen (Mr Denham) on the need to build consensus in whichever way people in England choose. In Scotland, we have done it in a way that has worked for us twice, and will I believe now work for us a third time. It could work for people in England, but it is for them to make up their own minds about that.

[Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP)]

I welcome the Secretary of State’s statement. I welcome more the resounding result of our Scottish kith and kin choosing to stay within the Union, and I welcome the way in which the debate was fought and won. The implications go well beyond the Scottish highlands and islands or the borders: where Scotland goes with devolution, Northern Ireland invariably follows. What engagement will the Smith commission and Lord Smith have with parties in Northern Ireland to ensure that the outcome reflects the needs of all the United Kingdom in all its diversity, especially the needs of Northern Ireland?

[Mr Carmichael]

Lord Smith has been charged with building a consensus in relation to further powers for the Scottish Parliament. I am sure that if the hon. Gentleman has a view informed by his experience of devolution in Northern Ireland, Lord Smith will certainly be interested to hear it. Given the remit that we have given Lord Smith, however, I do not expect him to say anything in relation to changes for Northern Ireland.

[Iain Stewart (Milton Keynes South) (Con)]

Will my right hon. Friend assure me that the business community on both sides of the border will be fully consulted on the further devolution of powers over personal taxation, because they shoulder much of the administrative burden? Much as further devolution might be desirable, it must not increase the regulatory burden on wealth and job creators on both sides of the border.

[Mr Carmichael]

Indeed, the voice of business is very important in this process, as it was throughout the referendum campaign. I know from my discussions with the CBI, the chambers of commerce and others that they are working on their proposals. I urge all collective organisations, individual businesses and individual citizens who have something to say to come forward and say it—this is their time.

[Graeme Morrice (Livingston) (Lab)]

Will the Secretary of State confirm that the decisive no vote was not a vote for the status quo, but a vote for continued change, and that we in this House must deliver and be seen to deliver on our commitments to further Scottish devolution quickly, inclusively and decisively, without tying them to any decentralisation plans for south of the border?

[Mr Carmichael]

I am happy to give the hon. Gentleman that assurance, which I have already given on two or three occasions this afternoon. There are few things that would be worse for the constitutional integrity of the United Kingdom than our not delivering on the promises that we made or not meeting the timetable. It is because I care so much about keeping the United Kingdom together that I am determined that we will meet the timetable that we have laid out.

[Sir William Cash (Stone) (Con)]

Today’s Command Paper does not contain a section dedicated to the supervening question of the position of European law in relation to Scotland. That is a reserved matter under the Scotland Act 1998. Will the Secretary of State give an absolute and categorical assurance that, having saved the Union of the United Kingdom, under no circumstances will we surrender the Scottish functions to the European Union?

[Mr Carmichael]

I would be more than happy for the hon. Gentleman to engage directly with Lord Smith. Indeed, I will make every effort to explain to Lord Smith what he might expect.

[Mr Brian H. Donohoe (Central Ayrshire) (Lab)]

In his statement, the Secretary of State said:

“It is important that everyone now accepts this result”.

The $64,000 question is how long it will be before the SNP demands another referendum.

[Mr Carmichael]

Demands for a further referendum would have an exceptionally damaging effect on Scottish businesses, Scottish jobs and the Scottish economy. We know that because we can see what happened in Quebec in Canada when the separatists did not accept the outcome and came back a second time. We know what happened to the financial services sector in Montreal. I do not want that to happen in Scotland. Unfortunately, I cannot dictate what the Scottish National party will do, but I say to it that if it does not make it clear that it accepts this result and if it does not engage in the Smith commission in good faith, it will suffer.

[Crispin Blunt (Reigate) (Con)]

As my right hon. Friend congratulates the people of Scotland on the 85% turnout in the referendum, I hope that he will reflect on the 85% of people in the United Kingdom who did not get a vote on the Union: namely, the people of England. He has no mandate from me or my constituents to devolve further powers to Scotland, while expecting my constituents to bankroll it and failing to address the issue of English votes for English laws.

[Mr Carmichael]

I fear that my hon. Friend does not quite reflect the intricacies of the settlement in the United Kingdom. I invite him to reflect on that at some leisure. I understand completely the concerns that he expresses about the position of England within the United Kingdom. Of course that discussion needs to take place. We have had such a discussion for decades in Scotland and I wish the people of England well in having it, but I cannot emphasise too strongly that that discussion cannot and will not hold up the delivery of the powers to the Scottish Parliament.

[Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co-op)]

A key principle during the referendum debate was the delivery of fairness in Scotland. I was pleased to hear the Secretary of State confirm that the principle of pooling and sharing resources across the United Kingdom will be fundamental. Will he say more about whether Lord Smith will have access to various resources within the Treasury and the Government so that he can produce further analysis of the various proposals that have been put forward by the different political parties, with the principle of the pooling and sharing of resources in mind?

[Mr Carmichael]

The secretariat for Lord Smith’s commission is already supported by civil servants from the Scotland Office, the Cabinet Office and the Treasury. I met Lord Smith on the Monday following the referendum and I told him then—I am happy to repeat this commitment publicly—that any resources that he felt he needed would be given, such is the importance that we attach to the work with which he has been tasked.

[Sir James Paice (South East Cambridgeshire) (Con)]

Does my right hon. Friend agree that one of the holes in the current devolution settlement, as some of us pointed out at the time, is that effectively the Scottish people have representation without taxation? We must ensure that the Scottish Government have not only the power but the obligation to raise some of their taxes, thus increasing their accountability and enhancing democracy.

[Mr Carmichael]

My right hon. Friend is absolutely right. The completion of the job of devolution requires the Scottish Parliament to be given control of at least half its budget—preferably more in my view, although we will see what Lord Smith comes forward with on that in the fullness of time. It is important for the rebalancing of the political debate in Scotland that we have a Parliament that debates not only how to spend money, but how to raise it.

[Katy Clark (North Ayrshire and Arran) (Lab)]

Does the Secretary of State agree that the high level of participation among ordinary members of the public in the referendum debate was incredibly important, and a stark contrast to the debate leading up to the Scotland Act 2012, which of course delivered substantial further powers to the Scottish Parliament on the taxation and indeed borrowing that come to it? Does he agree that we must listen to the message of that debate, which was that whether people voted yes or no, they wanted change and we have failed to deliver on social justice? Will he hold a public education campaign and ensure that the Government talk not only about the powers that need to be delivered, but about how those powers can be used by the Scottish Parliament to deliver social justice?

[Mr Carmichael]

Having a short process such as the one we have outlined allows early delivery of those powers, and that will allow us to get on to talking about how we use those powers, not just where they are. I share the hon. Lady’s commitment to progress and social justice, and one thing that is clear from 18 September is that people in Scotland, and elsewhere, understand that these are often complex and subtle problems that we cannot solve just by drawing a line on the map.

[David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con)]

Does the Secretary of State agree that part of this settlement needs to be a public spending agreement that is fair to all four nations of the UK? On that basis, will he be reviewing the Barnett formula to ensure that it continues to reflect relative need and will do so in the future?

[Mr Carmichael]

Part of the vow made by the three party leaders was that there would be no change to the Barnett formula, and that remains Government policy.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

With the Wales Bill about to proceed to the other place, what improvements will the UK Government bring to the Bill to reflect the changing constitutional landscape following events in Scotland?

[Mr Carmichael]

I am afraid that the answer to that question will have to be delivered by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Wales.

[Mike Crockart (Edinburgh West) (LD)]

I thank my right hon. Friend for his statement, and may I echo his call for all of Scotland, whether part of the 45%, 55%, or indeed 65% of my constituents in Edinburgh West who voted no, to now set aside our differences and party affiliations and ensure that the will of the Scottish people is delivered?

[Mr Carmichael]

I echo that sentiment, and having campaigned on a number of occasions with my hon. Friend in his constituency during the referendum campaign, I was not in any way surprised that his constituents voted by such a handsome margin; it was almost as good as the decision in Orkney—[Interruption.] Shetland also voted no very heavily. The best way to capitalise on that magnificent result is for us in this House to demonstrate good faith in relation to the vow.

[Jim McGovern (Dundee West) (Lab)]

I am mindful of the previous hon. Member’s contribution. At the risk of sounding partisan, we see the separatists’ turnout here today. Are they really the party that stands up for Scotland? They cannot even turn up for Scotland.

[Mr Carmichael]

I am sure there are good reasons why hon. Members are here or not, and they can explain that for themselves.

[Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con)]

The Secretary of State is absolutely right that the vow must be made good on, but the devolution of considerable additional powers to Scotland has a particular impact on the north of England and we need a long-term solution to our constitution. One thing that could very quickly enhance the voice of the north is to deliver English votes for English laws. Can the Secretary of State confirm that there is absolutely nothing to prevent that happening in tandem with the new powers for Scotland?

[Mr Carmichael]

To make any change of that sort, it will be necessary for the parties to build consensus and to deliver it through this House. That is something that goes beyond my responsibility.

[Mrs Anne McGuire (Stirling) (Lab)]

Given the enthusiasm of the Scottish electorate during the referendum campaign, how will the Secretary of State maintain the enthusiasm, engagement and transparency of the process, so that on 30 November it does not look as though we have delivered a fix, instead of something that has support among the Scottish people?

[Mr Carmichael]

I will be more than happy to play my role in the process that the right hon. Lady outlines. There is a duty and an opportunity for all of us, across all the parties, to play a role. The electorate has rebooted politics in Scotland. It is for us now to respond to the initiative that has been taken by the people.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

I am told that on all sorts of measures Kettering is the most average borough in England. I would contend that Kettering people are the most fair-minded people in England. I am sure that my constituents would be very happy for Scotland to have lots more powers so that it can decide things for itself. However, what the fair-minded people of Kettering cannot accept—I would like the Secretary of State to try to explain it to them—is the Scottish people receiving premiums for public services, over and above what the average English taxpayer gets in England, unrelated to relative deprivation.

[Mr Carmichael]

The flow of money between the different parts of the United Kingdom comes and goes at different times over the years. What we have—Scotland has just said that it wishes to continue to be part of this—is a situation in which we all share and pool risks and resources. That is what the people of Scotland have voted for. I hope the hon. Gentleman will sign up to that too.

[Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab)]

In relation to greater devolution, one proposal that my party made was for the devolution of housing benefit. I appreciate that to some extent that cuts across one of the current Government’s pet projects, universal credit, but will the Secretary of State assure me that his colleagues on the Government Front Bench will be as flexible as possible and willing to see changes that will really help people in Scotland. Incidentally, this proposal might get his Government off one of their uncomfortable hooks—a policy that is not even going to work.

[Mr Carmichael]

Time will tell exactly what the change to universal credit achieves. On the devolution of housing benefit and other matters, we will wait and see what Lord Smith comes forward with. It is not appropriate at this stage for me, as a Minister, to second-guess what he might come up with, but the Government will respond in good faith when we see his heads of agreement.

[Mrs Anne Main (St Albans) (Con)]

The Secretary of State will be aware that very late in the campaign all three party leaders promised significant extra powers to the people of Scotland. What calculations were done on the costs of implementing any additional powers? I heard the Secretary of State say that all resources would be given in terms of making up the deal, but when will the House see any figures associated with what will happen in the name of giving extra powers to Scotland?

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Carmichael]

May I gently correct my hon. Friend on one point? The proposals of the three parties that support the continuation of the United Kingdom were published, in some cases, 18 months ahead of the independence referendum, and all certainly were published well before the summer. What was made clear in the latter stages of the referendum campaign was the timetable that would be followed. That was the essence of the new commitment that was made. On the figures that will be available, I am afraid that my hon. Friend will, like the rest of us, have to wait until Lord Smith comes forward with his heads of agreement on 30 November, because we cannot put figures on something that we do not yet know the details of.

[Sandra Osborne (Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock) (Lab)]

These powers are, of course, extremely important, but may I join colleagues on the Opposition Benches in emphasising the need for further devolution to deliver on social justice and equality? That is what the Scottish people voted for, and it is what they want to hear. We are very proud of our young people and the way they conducted themselves and engaged with the campaign, but does the Secretary of State agree that it is illogical to give them a vote for just one election?

[Mr Carmichael]

I certainly join the hon. Lady in congratulating 16 and 17-year-olds on the enthusiasm and vigour that they brought to the campaign, which was one of the most heartening aspects of the whole process. Although this goes beyond the next general election, I think it would be difficult for any future Government to resist such a change across the whole of the United Kingdom, and, having seen its effect in Scotland, I do not see why anybody would want to.

[Michael Connarty (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (Lab)]

I commend the Secretary of State for being able to take the heat out of a situation better than almost anyone else in politics. He has taken some heat himself during the campaign. Will he assure me that the people who do not shout the loudest—people who do not gang up on others—will be heard by the Smith commission? I am talking about the quiet people—the 10,000 contacts I had from constituents who said they wanted this to be solved, whether they voted yes or no, and who wanted their group, whether it was a non-governmental organisation or a charity, to be heard by whoever designs the future of Scotland within the Union.

[Mr Carmichael]

The hon. Gentleman commends me for taking the heat out of the situation. I wonder if that is perhaps an oblique way of saying I am boring if that is what is necessary. I have certainly been accused of an awful lot worse than that during my 13 years as a Member of this House.

In terms of engaging the quiet majority who spoke, the hon. Gentleman is absolutely right: it should not just be the squeaky wheel that gets the grease. Anybody who has a view on how Scotland can be better governed should be able to express that view and expect it to be given the respect it will undoubtedly deserve.

[Gemma Doyle (West Dunbartonshire) (Lab/Co-op)]

The people of Scotland have made a positive choice to stay in the UK. There is clearly support for the further devolution proposed by the three parties, and that must now happen and that process must move forward. I understand that there need to be discussions about devolution to other parts of the UK, but will the Secretary of State urge calm among his colleagues? It will be ludicrous if the result of this vote is that we start to rip apart this Parliament because of their ill-thought-out and rushed proposals.

[Mr Carmichael]

I cannot restate too often the importance of building the broadest possible consensus. It has taken us decades to do that in Scotland, and the Smith commission is just the latest iteration. I believe that parties in England, Wales and Northern Ireland now have to enter that process with the same good faith we are showing in Scotland. There is no alternative to building that sort of consensus. Reflecting on some of the efforts of this Government, I see no other way of achieving constitutional reform than by building that consensus.

[Ms Gisela Stuart (Birmingham, Edgbaston) (Lab)]

I wish the Secretary of State well in completing the process of devolution to Scotland, but it cannot be denied that that will leave unfinished business in the form of devolution in England to our great cities outside London such as Birmingham. In his capacity as a Cabinet member of the United Kingdom Government, is he talking to his colleagues—particularly the Minister responsible for cities—about how the greater devolution of power to cities in England can take place in tandem with the work that he is doing in Scotland?

[Mr Carmichael]

I reiterate that I hesitate to use terms such as “in tandem” because they might suggest a link that could cause delay for one process or the other. It is apparent to me that there is an increased appetite for discussing constitutional change, especially in England. I see that among my own family living in England. I think that it is entirely healthy, and I will encourage it in any way I can. The hon. Lady mentioned devolution to cities. I believe that this Government’s record on city deals and on giving opportunities and resources to cities represents one of our biggest successes. It has probably brought more significant change to the way in which England is governed than many people realise.

[Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)]

I strongly support more powers for the Scottish Parliament, but as the Secretary of State has said, there is a growing appetite for more devolution throughout the whole of the United Kingdom, perhaps in different forms. Will he therefore support the sensible suggestion that the way forward might well be to have a constitutional convention?

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Carmichael]

I have already made it clear that I am something of an enthusiast for that process, having been through it north of the border. I have always thought that there were applicable lessons for the rest of the United Kingdom, but I have to tell the hon. Gentleman that I do not see us resolving that issue this side of the general election.

[Mr Iain McKenzie (Inverclyde) (Lab)]

I do not think that it is lost on the Secretary of State, or on any of the hon. Members in this House who took part in the referendum campaign, that there are now deep divisions among the Scottish people. Does he agree that, if those divisions are to be healed to allow people to come together, a good starting point would be for the leadership of the Scottish National party to acknowledge that the question of Scottish independence is now dead for decades?

[Mr Carmichael]

I have already made it clear that I expect the leadership of the Scottish National party—in whatever shape or form it eventually emerges—to give that commitment to the Scottish people. That was what the party signed up to in the Edinburgh agreement and that was what it was saying in the week before the referendum. I see no reason why it should not stick to that position.

[Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)]

I am absolutely certain that the events in Scotland will lead to further devolution in Wales and in England, but what analysis has the Secretary of State made of the proposals on English votes for English laws? Would it not be bizarre if Scottish MPs were barred from voting but Scottish peers were allowed to vote on exactly the same legislation? Such peers could include the ninth Earl of Arran, the 14th Earl of Stair, the 16th Earl of Lindsay and, for that matter, Lord Smith.

[Mr Carmichael]

Lord Smith is not an hereditary peer. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Yeovil (Mr Laws) has already said, where we have devolved, we have devolved to a legislature, be it a Parliament or an Assembly, that is elected proportionally. That has been an important part of the way in which we have gone about the process of devolution, and I think that the people of England should be entitled to that as well. The essential difficulty that the hon. Gentleman touches on is that it is—[Interruption.] He knows my views on an unelected House of Lords. It is very difficult to devolve within Parliament but not the Executive, and that is something that those who want changes of this sort will have to address and explain.