Scotland Bill

Lindsay Hoyle Excerpts

Monday 15th June 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mr Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD)]

I beg to move amendment 16, page 1, line 7, leave out first “A” and insert “The”

[The Chairman of Ways and Means (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

Amendment 37, page 1, line 7, leave out “is recognised as” and insert “shall be”.

Amendment 17, page 1, line 7, leave out “recognised as”.

Amendment 58, page 1, leave out lines 7 and 8 and insert—

‘(1A) The Scottish Parliament is a permanent part of the United Kingdom’s constitution.

(1B) Subsection (1) or (1A) may be repealed only if—

(a) the Scottish Parliament has consented to the proposed repeal, and

(b) a referendum has been held in Scotland on the proposed repeal and a majority of those voting at the referendum have consented to it.”

This amendment is to ensure that the Scottish Parliament can only be abolished with the consent of the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish people after a referendum.

Amendment 38, page 1, line 8, at end insert

“and may not be abolished without the consent of the Scottish people given effect by an Act of the Scottish Parliament”.

Amendment 18, page 1, line 12, leave out “recognised as”.

Amendment 59, page 1, leave out lines 12 and 13 and insert—

‘(1A) The Scottish Government is a permanent part of the United Kingdom’s constitution.

(1B) Subsection (1) or (1A) may be repealed only if—

(a) the Scottish Parliament has consented to the proposed repeal, and

(b) a referendum has been held in Scotland on the proposed repeal and a majority of those voting at the referendum have consented to it.”

This amendment is to ensure that the Scottish Parliament can only be abolished with the consent of the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish people after a referendum.

Clause 1 stand part.

Amendment 89, in clause 11, page 13, line 42, at end insert—

‘(2A) In paragraph 4 of Schedule 4 (protection of Scotland Act 1998 from modification), insert new sub-paragraph—

“(5A) This paragraph does not apply to amendments to Schedule 5, Part II, Head A, Section A1 insofar as they relate to:

(a) taxes and excise in Scotland,

(b) government borrowing and lending in Scotland, and

(c) control over public expenditure in Scotland.”

This amendment would enable the Scottish Parliament to amend the Scotland Act 1998 to remove the reservation on taxation, borrowing and public expenditure in Scotland, with the effect that the Scottish Parliament could then legislate in these areas to provide for full fiscal autonomy in Scotland.

New clause 2—Constitutional convention—

‘(1) The Prime Minister shall establish a Constitutional Convention within one month of the day on which this act is passed.

(2) The Chair and Members of the Constitutional Convention shall be appointed in accordance with a process to be laid before, and approved by, resolution in each House of Parliament.

(3) The Chair of the Constitutional Convention is not permitted to be a Member of Parliament or a member of a political party.

(4) Members of the Constitutional must include, but not be limited to, the following—

(a) members of the public, chosen by lot through the jury system, who shall comprise the majority of those participating in the convention;

(b) elected representatives at all levels;

(c) representatives of civil society organisations and, in an advisory role, academia.

(5) The Constitutional Convention shall review and make recommendations in relation to future governance arrangements for the United Kingdom, including but not limited to the following—

(a) the role and voting rights of Members of the House of Commons;

(b) democratic reform of the House of Lords;

(c) further sub-national devolution within England;

(d) codification of the constitution.

(6) The Constitutional Convention shall engage in widespread consultation across the nations and regions of the UK, and must provide a report to both Houses of Parliament by 31 March 2016.

(7) The Secretary of State must lay before both Houses of Parliament a formal response to each recommendation of the Constitutional Convention within four months of the publication of the final report from the Constitutional Convention.’

This New Clause provides an outline for a Constitutional Convention selected from the widest possible number of groups in society to analyse and design future governance arrangements for the United Kingdom, and to report by 31 March 2016.

New clause 3—Transfer of reserved matters—

‘(1) Schedule 5 (which defines reserved matters) to the Scotland Act 1998, has effect with the following modifications.

(2) In Part I (general reservations) omit paragraph 6 (political parties).

(3) Part II (specific reservations) is omitted.

(4) Insert Part IIA (UK pensions liability) as follows—

Part IIA

UK Pensions liability

The consent of the Treasury is required before the enactment of any provision passed by the Scottish Parliament which would affect the liabilities of the National Insurance Fund in respect of old age pensions.”

(5) In Part III (general provisions) the following provisions referring to Part II of the Schedule are omitted—

(a) paragraph 3(2);

(b) paragraph 4(2)(c).’

This Amendment would allow the Scottish Parliament to make provision for the registration and funding of political parties, but would otherwise retain the Part I reserved matters covering the constitution, foreign affairs, public service, defence and treason. It would entirely remove the remaining reservations over financial and economic matters, home affairs, trade and industry, energy, transport, social security, regulation of the professions, employment, health and medicines, media and culture and other miscellaneous matters. The consent of the Treasury would be needed for any changes in old age pensions which would affect the liabilities of the National Insurance Fund.

New clause 6—Constitution of Scotland—

‘(1) The 1998 Scotland Act shall be cited as The Written Constitution of Scotland.

(2) A standing Scottish Constitutional Convention shall be convened jointly by the Secretary of State and the Scottish Ministers to conduct reviews and to make recommendations to the Scottish Parliament and the Parliament of the United Kingdom.’

The New Clause renames the Scotland Act 1998 and introduces a standing Scottish Constitutional Convention.

New clause 7—Application of the Parliament Acts to the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government—

‘(1) The Parliament Act 1911 is amended as follows.

(2) In subsection 2(1), after “other than a Money Bill”, insert “or a Bill amending sections 1 or 2 of the Scotland Act 2015.’

The New Clause entrenches the permanence of the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government by ensuring that changing Clauses 1 and 2 of the Bill once enacted would be possible only with the consent of both Houses of Parliament.

New clause 8—Scottish Parliament nomination of members of the House of Lords—

‘(1) The Scottish Parliament shall nominate members for appointment to the House of Lords, in a method to be determined wholly by the Scottish Parliament.

(2) The number of members of the House of Lords appointed in accordance with this section shall at any time be in broadly the same proportion to the total membership of the House of Lords as the population of Scotland is to the total population of the United Kingdom.’

The New Clause would require the Scottish Parliament to nominate members to sit in the House of Lords in proportion to Scotland’s share of the United Kingdom population.

New clause 9—Constitutional convention—

‘(1) Within one month of the day on which this Act is passed, a constitutional convention is to be held to consider and make recommendations on the constitution of the United Kingdom.

(2) The Secretary of State must make regulations to—

(a) appoint a day on which the convention must commence its operations,

(b) make fair and transparent rules about how the convention is to operate and how evidence is to be adduced,

(c) make further provision about the terms of reference prescribed under section 2, and

(d) specify how those who are to be part of the convention are to be chosen in accordance with subsection (8).

(3) The date appointed under subsection (2)(a) must not be later than 31 December 2016.

(4) A statutory instrument containing regulations under subsection (2), if made without a draft having been approved by a resolution of each House of Parliament, is subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution of either House of Parliament.

(5) The convention shall have the following terms of reference—

(a) the devolution of legislative and fiscal competence to and within Scotland and the rest of the UK,

(b) the devolution of legislative and fiscal competence to local authorities within the United Kingdom,

(c) electoral reform,

(d) constitutional matters to be considered in further conventions, and

(e) procedures to govern the consideration and implementation of any future constitutional reforms.

(6) The convention must publish recommendations within the period of one year beginning with the day appointed under subsection (2)(a).

(7) The Secretary of State must lay responses to each of the recommendations from the convention before each House of Parliament within six months beginning with the day on which the recommendations are published.

(8) The convention must be composed of representatives of the following—

(a) all registered political parties within the United Kingdom,

(b) civic society and local authorities of the nations and regions of the United Kingdom.’

The New Clause would require the appointment of a convention to review the operation of the Act resulting from the Scotland Bill in the wider context of the Union.

Amendment 1, in clause 63, page 67, line 24, leave out paragraph (a).

This amendment provides that section 1 will not come into force on the day on which the Act is passed, in order to link the commencement of Part 1 of the Act (Constitutional arrangements) with the work of the Constitutional Convention, outlined in New Clause NC2, which would be required to report by 31 March 2016.

Amendment 2, page 67, line 26, at end insert—

‘(1A) Part 1 comes into force within one month of the publication of the report of the Constitutional Convention appointed under section (Constitutional Convention).”

This amendment provides that Part 1 of the Act (Constitutional arrangements) comes into force after publication of the report of the Constitutional Convention, as outlined in New Clause NC2, which would be required to report by 31 March 2016.

[Mr Carmichael]

Amendments 16, 17 and 18 are essentially probing amendments, authored by the Law Society of Scotland. Subject to the response that we hear from Ministers and from those in other parts of the House, it is not my intention to seek to press them to a Division.

The amendments change the nature of clause 1 from one that recognises the permanence of the Scottish Parliament to one that declares it. The genesis of the clause was the Smith commission report, which required that there should be a statement in the legislation to follow it that the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government were permanent institutions. The form of words in clause 1 was inserted by the draft clauses published at the end of January, which recognised that permanence. The permanence of the Scottish Parliament is to be found not in any amendment or statutory enactment, but in the will of the Scottish people. It is a permanent institution because, frankly, it is unthinkable that it would be repealed at this point. For that reason, and given the comments of the Scottish Parliament’s Devolution (Further Powers) Committee, it is right that we should revisit the issue.

At the heart of this debate is the issue and the definition of sovereignty. The context is a classic Diceyan definition of sovereignty, which says that Parliament here is sovereign. Although matters have moved on somewhat over the years and although it remains the case that Parliament cannot bind its successors, it is undoubtedly the case that since the European Communities Act 1972 we have taken a different view of parliamentary sovereignty, one in which sovereignty is shared with the European Union, as it now is, in Brussels, the Scottish Parliament, the Welsh Assembly, the Northern Ireland Assembly and even the London Assembly. It was the subject of considerable debate during the constitutional convention back in the late 1980s and early 1990s.

The view that was taken then, which as I recall was contained in the claim of right, was that in Scotland the Diceyan version of sovereignty—that Parliament is sovereign—has never been the case, and that sovereignty has always been vested in and remained with the people of Scotland. From that point of view, I see considerable merit in amendment 58 in the name of the hon. Member for Moray (Angus Robertson) and his colleagues in the Scottish National party, requiring that if there were ever to be a repeal of the Scotland Act 1998 it could be done only with the consent of a majority voting in a referendum. That honours and respects the view that sovereignty lies with the people in Scotland.

However, even that clause could be got around by a simple repeal, a consequence of the doctrine that Parliament cannot bind its successors. As long as we try to do these things by way of primary legislation, we will keep tying ourselves up in knots and any solution that we bring forward will lack permanence and will be unsatisfactory.

--- Later in debate ---

[Pete Wishart]

I am grateful for that explanation. The key issue we face in the next year is the prospect of an EU referendum being held on the same day as the Scottish parliamentary elections. Would he like to take the opportunity to say what he thinks about that and to rule it out? We cannot have 16 and 17-year-olds coming into the polling booth to vote in the Scottish Parliament election, possibly being ID-ed, and then being turned out as they cannot vote in the EU referendum.

[The Chairman of Ways and Means (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

Order. We need to watch out so that we do not go outside the scope of what we are discussing. That is the danger. As much as the hon. Gentleman wants to tempt the Minister, I want him to try to stay within the scope of the Bill and to try to answer along those lines.

[John Penrose]

I shall endeavour to be as helpful as I can when I reach amendment 43, which is closely adjacent to the points made by the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart), without, I hope, trying your patience in the process, Mr Hoyle.

Clauses 3 and 5 fulfil the Smith commission agreement devolving significant electoral powers to the Scottish Parliament while ensuring that polls for Scottish parliamentary ordinary general elections will not be held on the same day as UK parliamentary general elections, European general elections or ordinary government elections, as we just discussed. The UK Government consider the timing and combination of polls to be intrinsically linked. I think that we might have covered that point, but I want to make sure that it is clear. That is why the combination of polls involving a reserved poll with a poll at a Scottish parliamentary election or local government election in Scotland continues to be reserved, as does the combination of a poll at a Scottish parliamentary ordinary general election with a poll at an ordinary local government election in Scotland. I urge Members to withdraw their amendments for the reasons that I have just given.

Amendment 43 seeks to ensure that it would not be possible for a Scottish parliamentary general election to be held on the same day as a referendum called under reserved powers. The hon. Member for Caerphilly gets top marks for ingenuity for trying to shoehorn into the Bill before us today a measure which affects tomorrow’s business. I understand that there are strong views on the issue and I promise him that we are considering them carefully. He will know that an amendment has been tabled for the business tomorrow which is very similar to this one and will allow the issue to be debated in some depth. I therefore encourage my right hon. and hon. Friends to resist the opportunity to support the amendment, if only because it would not be fair to Members of other devolved Parliaments and Assemblies, which may have elections on the same day as the Scottish elections next year, for such a measure to be dealt with in a Scottish Bill when we have the opportunity to deal with it properly tomorrow.

--- Later in debate ---

[Joanna Cherry]

I beg to move amendment 62, page 11, line 19, leave out

“the decision whether to pass or reject it”

and insert

“the motion that the Bill be passed is debated”.

Amendments 62 to 66 to Clause 10 aim to clarify matters around references to the Supreme Court, in particular where the Scottish Parliament resolve to reconsider the Bill.

[The Chairman of Ways and Means (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

Amendment 21, page 11, line 27, at end add—

“(aa) the period between general elections specified in section 2(2)”.

Amendment 22, page 11, line 30, at end add—

“(ba) the alteration of boundaries of constituencies, regions, or any equivalent electoral area”.

Amendment 63, page 11, line 39, after “unless”, insert

“it is passed without division, or”.

Amendment 64, page 12, line 18, at end insert—

“(2A) He shall not make a reference by virtue of paragraph (a) of subsection (2) if the Parliament resolves that it wishes to reconsider the Bill.

(2B) He shall not make a reference by virtue of paragraph (b) of subsection (2) if—

(a) the Bill was passed without a division, or

(b) the Bill was passed on a division and the number of members voting in favour of it was at least two thirds of the total number of seats for members of the Parliament.”

This amendment establishes that a Bill passed by consensus in the Scottish Parliament (i.e. without a division) automatically meets the super-majority requirement and ensures that a Presiding Officer’s statement is not required if the super-majority requirements are not triggered.

Amendment 65, page 12, line 23, at end insert—

“(3A) Subsection (3B) applies where—

(a) a reference has been made in relation to a Bill under this section, and

(b) the reference has not been decided or otherwise disposed of.

(3B) If the Parliament resolves that it wishes to reconsider the Bill—

(a) the Presiding Officer shall notify the Advocate General, the Lord Advocate and the Attorney General of that fact, and

(b) the person who made the reference in relation to the Bill shall request the withdrawal of the reference.”

Amendment 66, page 12, line 27, leave out subsections (11) and (12) and insert—

“(10A) In subsection (4) after paragraph (a) insert—

“(aa) where section 32A(2)(b) applies—

(i) the Supreme Court decides that the Bill or any provision of the Bill relates to a protected subject matter, or

(ii) a reference has been made in relation to the Bill under section 32A and the Parliament subsequently resolves that it wishes to reconsider the Bill.”

(10B) After that subsection insert—

“(4A) Standing orders shall provide for an opportunity for the reconsideration of a Bill after its rejection if (and only if), where section 32A(2)(a) applies—

(a) the Supreme Court decides that the Bill or any provision of the Bill does not relate to a protected subject matter, or

(b) the Parliament resolves that it wishes to reconsider the Bill.””

Clause 10 stand part.

Amendment 67, in clause 11, page 13, line 4, at end insert—

“(1A) In paragraph 1 of Schedule 4 (protection of Scotland Act 1998 from modification), delete ‘(2)(f) the Human Rights Act 1998’”

This amendment would remove the Human Rights Act 1998 from the list of protected provisions in Schedule 4 of the Scotland Act 1998.

Amendment 68, page 13, line 10, paragraph (a)(ii), leave out “(3)” and insert “(2B)”.

Amendments 68 to 88 to Clause 11 would grant the Scottish Parliament powers to make decisions about all matters relating to the arrangements and operations of the Scottish Parliament and Scottish Government as agreed in the Smith Commission.

Amendment 69, page 13, line 11, paragraph (a)(iii), leave out “11” and insert “12”.

Amendment 70, page 13, line 12, paragraph (a)(iv), leave out from “section” to the end and insert “sections 13 to 27,”.

Amendment 71, page 13, line 13, paragraph (a)(v), leave out from “(v)” to the end and insert “section 28(1) to (6),”.

Amendment 72, page 13, line 14, paragraph (a)(vi), leave out from “(vi)” to the end and insert “sections 29(2)(e)”.

Amendment 73, page 13, line 15, paragraph (a)(vii), leave out “27(1) and (2)” and insert “31”.

Amendment 74, page 13, line 16, paragraph (a)(viii), leave out “28(5)” and insert “32(1) to (3),”.

Amendment 75, page 13, line 17, paragraph (a)(ix), leave out “(1)(a) and (b) and (2) and (3)”.

Amendment 76, page 13, line 18, paragraph (a)(x), leave out “39” and insert “38”.

Amendment 77, page 13, line 21, paragraph (b)(i), leave out “44(1B)(a) and (b), and (2)” and insert “44(1C), (2) and (4),”.

Amendment 78, page 13, line 22, paragraph (b)(ii), leave out “(3) to (7)” and insert “to 50”.

Amendment 79, page 13, line 23, paragraph (b)(iii), leave out “46(1) to (3)” and insert “51(1), (2) and (5) to (8)”.

Amendment 80, page 13, line 24, paragraph (b)(iv), leave out “47(3)(b) to (e)” and insert “52”.

Amendment 81, page 13, line 25, paragraph (b)(v), leave out “48(2) to (4)” and insert “59”.

Amendment 82, page 13, line 26, paragraph (b)(vi), leave out “49(2) and (4)(b) to (e)” and insert “61”.

Amendment 83, page 13, line 27, leave out paragraph (b)(vii).

Amendment 84, page 13, line 28, paragraph (c), leave out “(3)”.

Amendment 85, page 13, line 29, paragraph (d), leave out from “general,” to the end of the paragraph, and insert—

“(i) sections 81 to 85,

(ii) sections 91 to 95, and

(iii) section 97,”.

Amendment 86, page 13, line 31, paragraph (e), leave out from “supplementary,” to the end of the paragraph in line 37, and insert—

“(i) sections 112, 113 and 115, and Schedule 7 (insofar as those sections and that Schedule apply to any power in this Act of the Scottish Ministers to make subordinate legislation),

(ii) sections 118, 120 and 121,

(iii) section 124 (insofar as that section applies to any power in this Act of the Scottish Ministers to make subordinate legislation),

(iv) section 126(1) and (6) to (8), and

(v) section 127,”.

Government amendments 108 to 110.

Amendment 87, page 13, line 39, paragraph (g), leave out “6” and insert “7”.

Amendment 88, page 13, line 41, paragraph (h), leave out

“paragraphs 1 to 6 of”.

Clause stand part.

[Joanna Cherry]

I rise to speak in favour of amendments 62 and 67. Amendment 67 would introduce to clause 11 a subsection that would remove the Human Rights Act from the list of protected provisions in schedule 4 to the Scotland Act 1998.

In the debate on the Gracious Speech, the Home Secretary confirmed that a Bill will be brought forward during this Parliament to introduce a Bill of Rights and to repeal the Human Rights Act. The Scottish National party has consistently opposed repeal of the Human Rights Act. We won the election in Scotland and therefore there is no mandate from the Scottish people for repeal of the Act. None the less, the Secretary of State for Scotland has confirmed, albeit on Radio Scotland, that repeal of the Human Rights Act will apply equally in Scotland as in England. At present, the Human Rights Act is listed as a protected provision in schedule 4 to the Scotland Act, which means that the Scottish Parliament cannot modify the Human Rights Act. Amendment 67 would change that.

The UK Government have not been clear on how potential changes to the United Kingdom’s relationship with the European convention on human rights and the abolition of the Human Rights Act could impact on the place of the ECHR in Scotland’s constitutional settlement. That is important because the ECHR is entrenched in the Scotland Act. For example, section 29(2)(d) provides that a provision that is incompatible with the ECHR is outwith the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament, and section 57(2) provides that a member of the Scottish Government has no power to make any subordinate legislation or to do any act in so far as that would be incompatible with the ECHR.

Neither of those sections would be changed by simple repeal of the Human Rights Act alone. It is clear, therefore, that human rights are not specifically a reserved matter; they are partially devolved. Scottish National party Members therefore argue that any repeal of the Human Rights Act without first consulting the Scottish Parliament would violate the Sewel convention, whereby the Westminster Government will not normally legislate with regard to devolved matters without the consent of the Scottish Parliament.

Matters are further complicated by the fact that the Smith commission and the draft clauses proposed putting the Sewel convention on a legislative footing. There is therefore the prospect of a very real clash between the United Kingdom Government commitment to revise and reduce the role of the ECHR in United Kingdom law and their commitment to the Scottish electorate to implement the vow. There is a real possibility of a clash between the Scottish and Westminster Parliaments.

It is worth pausing to look at the realities of human rights in the United Kingdom and why they matter. As I said in my maiden speech, the United Kingdom in fact loses very few of the cases brought against it in Strasbourg. The United Kingdom once had a proud tradition of leading in Europe on human rights. It was elected to membership of the United Nations Human Rights Council in 2014 on a prospectus claiming that it was

“a passionate, committed and effective defender of human rights”.

Repealing the Human Rights Act would not really live up to that claim and would send out all the wrong signals. The right hon. and learned Member for Beaconsfield (Mr Grieve) said in 2014 that the proposal to repeal the Human Rights Act represented a

“failure of ambition…on the global promotion of human rights”.

Human rights matter to ordinary people in this country. Those who have benefited from the Human Rights Act include victims of domestic violence, who have been able to get better protection, and victims of rape, who have used the Act to ensure that the police properly investigate offences. Lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender and intersex people have used human rights to overcome discrimination in this country. The families of military personnel killed on active service because the Ministry of Defence supplied them with outdated equipment have also benefited under the Human Rights Act. These rights are very real for ordinary United Kingdom citizens.

In Scotland, we have a national action plan for human rights, which has been co-produced in partnership with wider civil society. We have a United Nations- accredited Scottish Human Rights Commission, which is internationally acknowledged as one of the world’s best. As I said in my maiden speech, our commitment to human rights in Scotland extends not just to the ECHR, but beyond that to social and economic rights. Through our work on social justice and challenges such as that on fair work, we are intent on ensuring that people in Scotland can enjoy their economic, social and cultural human rights. Scotland is also a world leader in its work to give full effect to the rights of children. We are very proud of that record in Scotland and we wish to protect it—hence amendment 67.

As I have said, the amendment would have the effect of removing the Human Rights Act from the list of enactments that cannot be modified by the Scottish Parliament. If the Scottish Parliament was able to modify the Human Rights Act, that would allow the Scottish Government and the Scottish Parliament to establish a human rights regime in Scotland regardless of whether the Act was repealed by the UK Parliament.

I hasten to add that, as our First Minister has said, the SNP is committed to opposing the repeal of the Human Rights Act for the whole of the UK, not just for Scotland. However, in the unfortunate event that it is repealed for the whole of the UK, amendment 67 would enable us to do something about it, at least in Scotland. That position has the overwhelming support of the Scottish electorate, as evidenced by the 56 out of 59 MPs sitting beside and behind me.