19:31 - The Committee divided: - Ayes: 271 / Noes: 302 - Question accordingly negatived.
21:07 - The Committee divided: - Ayes: 269 / Noes: 305 - Question accordingly negatived.
21:42 - divided: - Ayes: 60 / Noes: 309 - Question accordingly negatived.
21:55 - divided: - Ayes: 218 / Noes: 306 - Question accordingly negatived.
22:09 - divided: - Ayes: 68 / Noes: 298 - Question accordingly negatived.
22:22 - divided: - Ayes: 274 / Noes: 309 - Question accordingly negatived.
22:35 - The Committee divided: - Ayes: 63 / Noes: 309 - Question accordingly negatived.
Angus Robertson (Moray) (SNP)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hoyle. I welcome you back to your role. I wish to speak in support of amendment 58, which stands in my name and in the names of my hon. Friends.
The Scottish National party has submitted a series of amendments to the Scotland Bill based on the three-pronged commitment outlined in our manifesto for the UK general election: first, delivering on the Smith agreement in full; secondly, devolving additional powers in priority areas such as job creation and welfare protection; and, thirdly, enabling the Scottish Parliament to move to a position of full fiscal autonomy. This approach was backed in record numbers by voters in Scotland in May, giving the SNP a clear mandate for change, which the UK Government must recognise and must act upon.
The UK Government must live up to the words of the Prime Minister on 10 September 2014, when he said:
“If Scotland says it does want to stay inside the United Kingdom then all the options of devolution are there and are possible”.
If all options are possible, it is the duty of the UK Government to respond to the clearly expressed desire of the Scottish people for more powers in the Scotland Bill. The SNP amendments include effectively entrenching the Scottish Parliament—that is what we are discussing now—placing the Sewel convention on a meaningful statutory basis and giving the Scottish Parliament the legislative competence to remove the reservation on taxation, borrowing and public expenditure, enabling the Scottish Parliament to legislate to deliver full fiscal autonomy. The SNP also proposes amendments for further priority powers at later stages in the Bill, including powers over tax, setting the minimum wage and taking responsibility for welfare decisions. In this first group of amendments, I will speak on issues relating to the permanence of the Scottish Parliament, and my hon. Friend the Member for Dundee East (Stewart Hosie) will speak shortly on full fiscal autonomy.
Amendment 58 relates to the permanency of the Scottish Parliament and Government. Paragraph 21 of the Smith commission report stated:
“UK legislation will state that the Scottish Parliament and Scottish Government are permanent institutions.”
However, in its analysis of the draft clauses published by the UK Government, the Scottish Parliament’s Devolution (Further Powers) Committee raised two main issues. As I stressed in the previous stage, that was an all-party Committee, involving members from the Scottish National party, the Scottish Labour party, the Scottish Conservative party, the Scottish Liberal Democrats and the Scottish Green party.
The Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell)
It is important to get it on the record that Alex Johnstone MSP has made it perfectly clear that his participation on the Committee is not to be conflated with the SNP press release issued at the time of the Committee’s report. He clearly supports the Committee’s report, but not the SNP’s attempt to distort that report.
Angus Robertson
It will no doubt be a relief to you, Mr Hoyle, that I will confine myself to the words agreed by all Committee members, including Mr Johnstone, when he signed up to the report.
That cross-party Committee found that the form of words on permanency proposed in the Scotland Bill was a weaker formulation than stating simply that the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government were permanent. We agree with the view of the Committee—and of Mr Johnstone—in paragraph 47:
“The Committee is of the view that the inclusion of the words ‘is recognised’ in draft clause 1 has the potential to weaken the effect of this clause, which would be unfortunate given the all-party agreement to this recommendation as part of the Smith Commission, and the views expressed to us by the former Secretary of State for Scotland that he perceives that the permanence of the Scottish Parliament and Scottish Government is guaranteed.”
The Committee was also told by the former Secretary of State that he was open to reconsidering the wording of draft clause 1, but changes were not made in the published Bill. This suggests that the Government might be open to the amendment.
Paragraph 49 of the report agreed by Mr Johnstone and all other Committee members states:
“In evidence to the Committee, the former Secretary of State for Scotland commented that he was ‘open to thinking about different ways in which…permanence could be achieved’. The Committee welcomes the openminded approach of the former Secretary of State with regard to this issue. The Committee therefore considers that there is scope to further strengthen the permanency provisions.”
The Committee’s analysis of the published Bill, however, confirmed that there was no change between the draft and the final clause.
The Committee called for additional protection in paragraph 50 of its report, supported by Mr Johnstone and all other members:
“The Committee considers that the effect of the clause on permanency, as currently drafted, is primarily declaratory and political rather than legal in effect. The UK doctrine of Parliamentary sovereignty makes achieving permanence problematic. The Committee recommends that the Scottish electorate should be asked to vote in a referendum if the issue of permanency was in question, with majorities also being required in the Scottish Parliament and the UK Parliament.”
That is the purpose of the SNP amendments, which we will be moving.
Stewart Hosie
The hon. Gentleman is right about one thing: we did not win the referendum. There was, however, an election that we did win, so we are not bringing forward another mandate for independence; we are bringing forward provisions for full fiscal autonomy. I hear Tories pontificate right, left and centre about responsibility, but when it comes to full fiscal responsibility for Scotland, all of a sudden there is silence. They just sit on their hands and say no.
David Mundell
Why then did the SNP not table the new clause in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough (Sir Edward Leigh)? If the hon. Gentleman wants that full-blooded proposal, why did he leave it to the Tory Benches to propose what he claims is an SNP policy?
Stewart Hosie
I can almost hear Professor Adam Tomkins, the Tory adviser to this Tory Minister, coming up with that daft question. I say this to the Minister: our amendment 89 would deliver full fiscal autonomy in a way that makes sense.
Our opponents argue that full fiscal autonomy would lead to more cuts to the Scottish budget, which is ridiculous when one considers that between 2009-10 and 2013-14, at a time when the North sea was generating £32 billion in oil revenues, the Scottish Government’s budget was cut by about 9%. According to the Institute for Fiscal Studies, prayed in aid by Tories and Labour alike, the cuts of more than 5% implied in 2016-17 and 2017-18—in this Parliament—will be twice the size of any cuts over the last Parliament. The UK Budget showed that implied cumulative cuts to day-to-day spending on public services in Scotland over this Parliament could amount to £12 billion in real terms compared with 2014-15. In the absence of full fiscal autonomy, therefore, we are not protected from cuts. Rather, we suffer a double blow: continued austerity and an inability to grow the economy and increase tax yields in the way that Scotland requires.
Ian Murray
Well, the hon. Gentleman is wasted in this House; he should be in the City, buying and selling futures in oil price shares. I think that is the best way for him to go. The three points that fall from the OBR report are the unpredictability of the oil price, the difficulty of extraction in the North sea and the fact that, whatever way we look at it, oil revenues will be declining sharply over the next 20-year period. It would appear that the hon. Gentleman—[Interruption.] I am happy to take other interventions, but it is quite clear that SNP Members cannot defend their policy for full fiscal autonomy. Indeed, they should listen to their hon. Friend, the hon. Member for East Lothian (George Kerevan), who said that it would be economic suicide. He is an experienced journalist and economist, so they would do well to listen to him.
In conclusion, we will push amendment 38 to the vote because we feel that the permanency of the Scottish Parliament should have the underpinning of the Scottish people by any means that would be appropriate, including a referendum. We will push to a vote new clause 2, which proposes a constitutional convention to resolve some of the larger issues on a constitutional settlement across the country. We will oppose full fiscal autonomy in all its forms, because it would be bad for the Scottish people, bad for the Scottish economy and bad for the future of Scotland.
David Mundell
Today is the first of four days in Committee on the Scotland Bill. I assure the hon. Member for Edinburgh East (Tommy Sheppard), whose contribution I enjoyed, that I will be listening and reflecting. Contrary to the suggestion made by the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart), this is not the only opportunity for changes to be made to the Bill. I will be meeting the Devolution (Further Powers) Committee of the Scottish Parliament next week to discuss points that it has raised in its report.
I would not normally begin a contribution by suggesting that anyone read one of Gordon Brown’s books, but tonight I will do so. Gordon Brown has been misquoted a number of times in the Chamber today, and it is important to put on the record the fact that in his book “My Scotland, Our Britain: A Future Worth Sharing”, he states that neither his proposals nor those of any of the pro-UK parties involved a federal solution. Although they came close to the idea of home rule, they were not home rule. Therefore, it is a myth, which has been perpetuated this evening, that Gordon Brown has called for either federalism or home rule.
David Mundell
The hon. Gentleman has already spoken a great deal on the subject this evening. I would also like to see empirical evidence to back up the suggestion made by the hon. Member for Edinburgh East that the vow and the offer of additional powers made a significant change to the referendum result, because I do not believe that such empirical evidence exists.
Tommy Sheppard
Is the Secretary of State suggesting that they had no effect at all? In that case, what was the point of them?
David Mundell
What I am suggesting is that the hon. Gentleman cannot bring forward a shred of evidence to suggest that those proposals changed the referendum result and that somehow the people of Scotland have been defrauded. The people of Scotland voted decisively no in the referendum. They voted for a strong Scottish Parliament within the United Kingdom. The vow, which was set out in the Daily Record and other outlets, was taken forward on the basis of the Smith commission, of which the Scottish National Party was a part and to which it was a signatory. I received an interesting letter today from John Swinney, the Deputy First Minister of Scotland, who was a signatory to the Smith commission recommendations. He now tells me that the Smith commission recommendations, which he signed, were incoherent. I do not understand how he came to sign those recommendations if he genuinely believed that they were incoherent. If that was the case, he should have been making some of the arguments that we have heard this evening and during the general election campaign.
David Mundell
Not at this stage. The result of the general election represented a call from the people of Scotland for the delivery of the powers in the Smith commission recommendations. The Scottish National party set itself up as the voice of the people of Scotland to ensure that those powers were delivered, and they will be delivered in the Scotland Bill.
David Mundell
Not at the moment. I have heard a number of small speeches from the hon. Gentleman, and I know the point that he wants to make.
I disagree with some of my right hon. and hon. Friends on the idea that conflict and division are inevitable when Governments work together. Despite what we regularly read in the media, see on television or hear in this Chamber, the Government work very closely with the Scottish Government on a range of important matters for the benefit of the people of Scotland. The Government remain committed to working continually for the benefit of the people of Scotland.
Mr Kenneth Clarke
When pressed on the possible difficulties of fiscal autonomy, the reaction of Scottish National party Members is to point to the tremendous new levels of growth that will be achieved by the Scottish economy, and the added GDP that will flow from their enlightened measures. They are not the first politicians I have heard attribute those kinds of consequences to their economic policy. If their policy fails, they imply that any deficit would be the liability of the UK Government and the British taxpayer. Will my right hon. Friend assure me that a fiscal framework, which is still to be achieved, will include some real fiscal discipline? We cannot have an unsuccessful devolved Government running up enormous additions to the United Kingdom’s debt and deficit.
David Mundell
I can give that assurance. If it is to meet the various spending commitments that we hear sprayed around not only in the Chamber, but across Scotland, the Scottish National party will eventually have to tell the people of Scotland how much tax will rise to pay for all its proposed measures. The hon. Member for Dundee East (Stewart Hosie) carefully avoided any detail about tax when he set out the case for full fiscal autonomy. He criticised the proposals in the Bill for the devolution of income tax bands and rates, and he criticised the provision for a 0% rate. In fact, all he argued for was to enable the Scottish Government to reduce the personal allowance. I do not quite understand how that would benefit the less well-off in Scotland or the Scottish economy. The full range of other income tax powers worth £11 billion are coming to Scotland as part of the Bill.
John Redwood
When will the Secretary of State be able to share with Members the proposals to adjust the grant formula? Scotland will have higher spending and it will have tax revenues of its own, and my constituents in England are very interested in what the grant formula will look like.
David Mundell
I made it clear earlier that we would, in early course, bring forward details of the full fiscal framework as it is being negotiated.
I was not convinced by the arguments for full fiscal autonomy advanced by the hon. Member for Edinburgh East and others. I was not convinced by the red-blooded version that my hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough (Sir Edward Leigh) set out for delivering the Scottish National party’s manifesto commitments, and I was not convinced by the SNP full fiscal-lite proposals—sometime, somewhere, somehow.
Ian Blackford
The hon. Member for Gainsborough (Sir Edward Leigh) gave an eloquent speech, in which he explained how the debate in Scotland had moved on. We won the election in Scotland, and the people of Scotland have demonstrated their desire for powers, for a purpose and for a Parliament. Is it not the case, as the hon. Gentleman said, that the Government are playing with the future of their own Union, which they want to defend? It really is about time that they listened to the Scottish people and delivered what the people of this country have asked for.
David Mundell
I said at the start of my remarks that I was listening to the Scottish people. The only people who are playing games are those who threaten another referendum in Scotland every time they do not get what they say they want.
The principal issue raised in relation to full fiscal autonomy is that it would mean Scotland having almost £10 billion less to spend by the last year of this Parliament. That is not good for Scotland, and that is why this Government will not support it. I am afraid that the only argument we have heard in support of these proposals was that heard during the referendum campaign—basically, “It will be all right on the night: trust us.” The people of Scotland decided on 18 September last year that they did not trust that argument, and I still do not trust it. Full fiscal autonomy would mean an end to the Barnett formula. It would mean that the Scottish Government had to fund all public spending in Scotland from their own resources. The Scottish Government would therefore be fully responsible for raising all the tax from Scottish taxpayers required to fund all spending in Scotland on public services, benefits and pensions.
Stewart Hosie
Can the Secretary of State confirm that in terms of the principles underlying Smith, we have no detriment and no advantage simply because of devolution itself, and that there will be a negotiated financial framework between the Scottish and UK Governments for the devolution in this Bill? Of course, we already have limited borrowing consent under the Scotland Act 2012 to fill holes in revenue, notwithstanding that the repayment terms were too short. Can he confirm that under the “no detriment, no advantage” principles there will be a negotiated financial framework for this Bill, and that there are already revenue-borrowing powers in statute?
David Mundell
I can confirm that the Scottish National party signed up to the Smith commission agreement, this Government are committed to delivering the Smith commission agreement, and the hon. Gentleman will therefore get what he is looking for in respect of the Smith commission agreement. There is not a shadow of a doubt about that.
Full fiscal autonomy would mean the end of Scotland pooling resources and sharing risks with the rest of the United Kingdom, and an end to Scotland being part of the UK’s hugely successful single market, which generates jobs, growth and prosperity. To all intents and purposes, the fiscal union between Scotland and the United Kingdom would end entirely, and the lesson of the eurozone is that it is extremely difficult to have a successful currency union without fiscal union.
Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab)
I understand the Secretary of State’s desire to protect the Scottish people, but whether or not there is a £10 billion shortfall, if this is what the people of Scotland and the bulk of their representatives want, then why do not the rest of us, in the interests of the rest of the UK that we represent, let them have it, provided that we have a guarantee that we will not have to bail them out?
David Mundell
I do not accept the hon. Gentleman’s argument. A £10 billion shortfall in spending in Scotland would affect every school, every hospital, and every family by £5,000. I am not going to countenance that, and I am not going to support any amendments that would promote it.
We have had a lengthy discussion on full fiscal autonomy.
David Mundell
I will. [Hon. Members: “Oh!”] I will take my hon. Friend’s intervention because he proposed an amendment.
Sir Edward Leigh
Let me be quite clear: those of us who propose full fiscal autonomy and the scrapping of the Barnett formula are also arguing that there should be a block grant based on Scotland’s needs and not on England’s spending, so that there is a real Parliament making real decisions, which is what the Scottish people want.
David Mundell
I have noted what my hon. Friend has said. At times today, I am sure that he will have been an honorary member of Team 57.
I want to make very clearly a point that echoes the evidence I gave to the Select Committee chaired by the hon. Member for Nottingham North (Mr Allen). I regard a Scottish Parliament as a prerequisite of a United Kingdom. There will not be a United Kingdom if there is not a Scottish Parliament. I can understand why there is a lot of debate about the exact wording, and I will continue to listen to it, but I am absolutely clear that without a Scottish Parliament there will not be a United Kingdom, and that it is not sustainable to argue about lots of preconditions on that basis.
Mr Graham Allen
I thank the Secretary of State for listening to the proposal by the Political and Constitutional Reform Committee. Will he take away the idea that what he is saying are to be in the Bill, in so many words? What those words are to be should be left to him, and perhaps he can return to that on Report.
David Mundell
I said that I would reflect on a number of the issues raised by the right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr Carmichael) relating to proposals by the Law Society of Scotland. Among those is the debate on the wording currently in part 1, and we will certainly look at that.
I do not accept amendments 58 and 59 because they refer to the term “constitution” whereas clause 1 refers to the term “constitutional arrangements”. The term “constitutional arrangements” is used to reflect the fact that the United Kingdom does not have a written constitution. That is a well-established constitutional arrangement of which a Scottish Parliament is a crucial and enduring part.
In new clause 2, the hon. Member for Edinburgh South (Ian Murray) proposes a constitutional convention. I have said at this Dispatch Box previously that I, and this Government, do not support a constitutional convention for reasons that have been well rehearsed, not least because—on this one matter I am in agreement with the Scottish National party—it would slow down the progress of this Bill, which I am committed to taking through Parliament as quickly as possible.
Other matters have been raised and we have debated them fully but they do not fully relate to the Bill. On that basis, I propose that we move to vote on the amendments.
Mr Alistair Carmichael
I am mindful of the fact that we have spent a considerable amount of time on this group of amendments, so I will not detain the Committee for long at this stage.
We have had a very good debate; in fact, two very good debates. On the first, there is among the three Opposition parties a broad measure of consensus that the Bill is capable of improvement. I will hold the Secretary of State to his word when he says that he will take that away and look at it. I remind him that while he might win a majority quite easily in this House, the Bill will also be scrutinised in the other place. I urge on him further consideration and suggest that the proposals brought forward by me and others tonight—I do not intend to press mine to a vote, but others who choose to do so will have my support—are reasonable.
I was very disappointed by the Secretary of State’s response on the constitutional convention. Ultimately, if we are to continue with this Union, a federal structure is inevitable. That will have to be grasped sooner or later, and the way in which that will be done is through the calling of a constitutional convention.
There has not been the same level of consensus on our other debate about the proposals for full fiscal autonomy. It has not been a particularly good debate: it has been characterised more by the heat it has generated than the light. Like the hon. Member for Edinburgh East (Tommy Sheppard), I favour the idea of evidence-based policy. I am not without sympathy for those on the SNP Front Bench when they say that they could do things differently with the extra powers that would be given to them. However, to simply say that it could all be done by generating extra economic growth is not good enough.
The Temporary Chair (Mr David Crausby)
The hon. Gentleman’s point of order is noted.
David Mundell
I am happy to respond to the points made and to restate, as I did on the previous group, that I will be meeting the Scottish Parliament’s Devolution (Further Powers) Committee next week, which will be an opportunity to explore some of the issues it raised in its report.
The Government’s starting point is that the Smith commission’s intention was not that the current constitutional position should be changed. Instead, the commission’s intention was that legislation should accurately reflect the political understanding of the convention, and that is exactly what I see the clause as doing.
Currently, the Government do not normally legislate in devolved areas without the consent of the Scottish Parliament. Clause 2 sets out that practice. In doing so, it puts on a statutory footing a convention that has been consistently adhered to by successive United Kingdom Governments. I understand the desire to put beyond doubt that we will seek the consent of the Scottish Parliament when legislating on devolved matters. However, in effect, amendment 56 seeks to limit the sovereignty of this Parliament by removing the word “normally” to state that the Parliament of the United Kingdom cannot legislate with regard to devolved matters without the consent of the Scottish Parliament.
In reality, the amendment would directly contradict section 28(7) of the Scotland Act 1998, which states that the section, which relates to Acts of the Scottish Parliament,
“does not affect the power of the Parliament of the United Kingdom to make laws for Scotland.”
The amendment would radically alter the way in which the practice was intended to operate as envisaged by Lord Sewel.
Mr Alistair Carmichael
The Secretary of State is making a compelling case for codification. On a number of occasions and in different ways, the House has limited its sovereignty, particularly in relation to the European Communities Act 1972. As I recall, there is judicial authority on that from the Factortame case. Surely he accepts that the mere act of putting a convention on a statutory footing is a change. For that reason, the adherence to the word “normally” is not appropriate.
David Mundell
It is not a change to how things are normally done, but a change to how they are set out on the face of legislation. As part of the Smith process, it was clear that people wanted the convention set out in the Bill, but I do not accept that they want a change to the convention as envisaged by Lord Sewel.
Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP)
Surely not even the Smith commission wanted mere commentary to be dressed up as a clause. That is all clause 2 is—mere commentary. There is no binding or cogent constitutional governance in it.
David Mundell
I answered the hon. Gentleman’s questions when he was part of the Constitutional and Political Reform Committee, and I understand the strength of his views, but it was the view of the Smith commission that the convention should be set out in such a Bill, which is what the UK Government are doing. It is a fundamental principle of United Kingdom constitutional law that the United Kingdom Parliament is a sovereign legislature. The people of Scotland voted last September to remain part of that United Kingdom. Therefore, it is right that this Parliament, while respecting the Scottish Parliament and its right to legislate, continues to be able to legislate for all matters without restriction on its sovereignty.
Furthermore, I believe amendment 56 is unnecessary. The Bill adopts the language that formed the basis of the Sewel convention. When Lord Sewel said that he would
“expect a convention to be established that Westminster would not normally legislate with regard to devolved matters in Scotland without the consent of the Scottish Parliament”,
he did not intend his words to carry a technical meaning. The same expectation exists in clause 2. The wording used will take the convention’s ordinary English language meaning.
The Smith commission recommended that the Sewel convention be put on a statutory footing—no more, no less. That is what the Bill seeks to achieve. Accepting amendment 56 would be to go further than was recommended, radically alter how the convention was intended to operate, and attempt to limit the authority of the UK Parliament. For those reasons, I urge hon. Members to resist it.
Amendments 41 and 45 seek to make additional stipulations to the Sewel convention. I reiterate that the Bill already establishes that the UK Parliament will not normally legislate with regard to devolved matters without the consent of the Scottish Parliament. That convention operates effectively at present. The amendments would add unnecessary bureaucracy to the procedure. I do not believe that the statutory requirements that would be placed on Members of the UK Parliament by the amendments would add any value to a process that operates well, and that is being placed on a statutory footing by the Bill.
On amendments 19 and 20, and new clause 10, as I have said, the Bill adopts the language that formed the basis of the Sewel convention. As I said in previous remarks, when Lord Sewel said that he would
“expect a convention to be established that Westminster would not normally legislate with regard to devolved matters in Scotland without the consent of the Scottish Parliament”,
he did not intend those words to carry a technical meaning. We have established that the Bill clearly states that the UK Parliament
“will not normally legislate with regard to devolved matters without the consent of the Scottish Parliament.”
That is what the well-established Sewel convention does, and it has been consistently adhered to by successive UK Governments. We have had more than 15 years of good practice of the convention. It has not been breached. In the context of my earlier remarks, I do not accept that it could be. I believe that that current good practice will continue.
The hon. Member for Nottingham North (Mr Allen) referred to the Government’s plan to reform the Human Rights Act and its incompatibility with the devolution settlements. Amendment 5, which he tabled, would make it more difficult for the UK Parliament to repeal the Act. Let me be clear about the Government’s intentions: we are committed to human rights and have pledged to bring forward proposals for a Bill of Rights. The protection of human rights is vital in a modern and democratic society. This Government will be as committed as any to upholding those human rights. The purpose of a Bill of Rights is not the diminution of rights, but to reform and modernise our system, and to restore credibility to the human rights legal framework.
The Government know that our proposals for reform are likely to be significant. As such, we will consult widely on the reforms. We are aware of the potential devolution implications of reform and will engage with the devolved Administrations as we develop proposals. We are currently developing our proposals and it would not be sensible to prejudge that process at this stage through the amendment. I hope the hon. Gentleman reconsiders his statement that he wishes to press it to a Division.
I believe I have addressed all the proposals. The Government are not persuaded by them at this stage but, as I have indicated, I will discuss the report of the Scottish Parliament Devolution (Further Powers) Committee when we meet next week.
Wayne David
We shall not be pressing any of our amendments to a vote. I note that the Secretary of State has said that he is not convinced “at this stage”, and I take that to mean that he is open to persuasion and willing to listen. I hope he will be persuaded by arguments that will be put to him in the other place, and, indeed, by Members of the Scottish Parliament, which he will visit shortly.
There is something of a mismatch between theory and practice here. Theory has it that this Parliament is absolutely sovereign, but, in practice, the very existence of devolution puts constraints on that sovereignty, as does the very fact that we are members of the European Union. I think that we have reached a point at which that needs to be legally recognised. There is no doubt that the word “normally” is legally imprecise, and if it ever arose in a court of law, enormous difficulties would result because of that conflict between theory and practice.
I take on board what the Secretary of State has said, and I hope that we shall see some movement. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 2 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 3
Elections
Wayne David
I wish to focus on two issues, the first of which is individual electoral registration. We know full well that IER is imminent. There is some debate with the Electoral Commission, which is conducting its assessment, as to the completeness of the registers and whether or not IER will be introduced at the end of 2016 or 2015. Labour Members think it is essential that we have a complete register as far as is humanly practicable. We urge the Government and all other bodies to ensure that every effort is made to get as many people on to the register as possible. What is essential in any democracy is that people who are entitled to vote are on the register and able to choose whether to cast their vote.
That is why we think it is important that this be not only a responsibility of central Government, but a devolved matter. As we have heard, the Scottish Parliament has some responsibilities already on the conduct of elections. I am sure it shares our view of wanting to make sure that as many people as possible who are able to vote are on the electoral register. Our amendments provide practical means of providing that assessment, but we also urge that every consideration be given by the Scottish Parliament to ensuring that we do have people on that register.
As things stand, the Electoral Commission has indicated that as many as 7.5 million eligible voters are not registered. Multiple elections are coming up next year, including the Scottish Parliament elections, and the Government need to take action, as does everybody else, to ensure that a boost is given to electoral registration. We think that lessons can be learned from Scotland’s extension of the franchise in the referendum to 16 and 17-year-olds and the effort made to ensure that a special procedure was in place to ensure the maximum registration of young people. Those lessons need to be learned, acted upon and taken much further.
Labour Members are particularly concerned about the need to ensure that as many young people as possible register and that procedures are in place to ensure that college and university students are able to do so. We would like registration to be carried out en bloc by the student authorities, as it used to be. Given the increase in the private rented sector, there is a particular need for its involvement. The Government should be working much more closely with letting agencies so as to include reminders to register for all new tenants. Those issues are very important and I hope they will be given due consideration.
We would also like to press our amendment 43, on the European Union referendum. We are fully aware that that Bill is passing through this House, but the great concern out there in the country is to ensure that we have a proper, reasonable, rational and focused debate on Britain’s membership of the European Union. For that debate to take place, it is imperative that there are no other elections that will take people’s attention away from the central direction on which they must focus. We are mindful that the Electoral Commission, which has studied this matter in a great deal of depth, has said unequivocally that there should be a separation between the European Union referendum and other elections. It takes an emphatic stance. It says:
“It is important that voters and campaigners are able to engage fully with the issues which are relevant at these elections. It is also important that any debate about the UK’s membership of the European Union takes place at a time that allows the full participation of voters and campaigners, uncomplicated by competing messages and activity from elections which might be held on the same day.”
That is a pretty emphatic message by the non-political objective observers—people who have the responsibility to ensure that elections and referendums are conducted fairly and honestly. I strongly urge the Government to accept that amendment. If they are not minded to do so, we give notice that we will be pressing it to a vote.
The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (John Penrose)
I thank the hon. Members for Moray (Angus Robertson), for Nottingham North (Mr Allen), and for Caerphilly (Wayne David) for their contributions to the debate on this group of amendments on the significant electoral powers that will be transferred to the Scottish Parliament and Scottish Government. I hope to respond to as many points as I can, but first let me deal with a number of minor and technical Government amendments before I get on to the meat of the points that have been made during the debate.
Government amendments 93, 94 and 97 amend and clarify the reserved undevolved powers in clause 3 in respect of enforcement provisions within the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000 where they apply to other provisions that are also reserved. Government amendments 95 and 96 remove sections that do not need to be reserved in the 2000 Act as well. Amendments 106 and 107 are minor and technical amendments. Amendment 106 repeals the subsections inserted into the Scotland Act 1998 by section 13 of the Scotland Act 2012. Clause 11 brings the function of making an Order in Council under sections 15(1) and (2) of the 1998 Act within devolved competence and those subsections are therefore no longer required. Amendment 107 repeals section 13 of the Scotland Act 2012 entirely.
Amendment 101 relates to clause 5, which concerns the timing of Scottish parliamentary elections and local government elections in Scotland. It will ensure that general elections for the Scottish Parliament cannot be held on the same day as general elections to the UK Parliament or to the European Parliament or a local government election in Scotland. That is in line with the Smith commission agreement, as we heard from the hon. Member for Moray.
I hope that the hon. Gentleman will be pleased to hear that the purpose of amendment 101 is to remove the provision from the clause that says that a general election to the Scottish Parliament cannot be held in the two months preceding a general election to the UK Parliament or a general election to the European Parliament. That brings us more closely in line with the Smith commission, and is, I hope, an example of cross-party working.
Amendments 92 and 98 are also minor and technical. The purpose of amendment 92 is to protect the individual electoral registration digital service from future technical changes, such as the transfer of functions between UK Ministers. Effectively, it is nothing more than a future-proofing move. If amendment 92 were not made, the effect may be to place an unintentional constraint on the future actions of both the UK and Scottish Governments. The amendment should protect against the potential need to amend the Act as the registration of electors and verification of applications to register via a digital service evolves.
Amendment 92 means that the definition of “digital service” and of “elections in Scotland” in clause 3 is no longer required. Amendment 98 therefore removes those definitions. It does not make the reservation any wider but gives additional clarity over what is to remain reserved—I am talking about the digital service itself but not the powers that have been devolved to the Scottish Parliament.
Amendments 99 and 100 are again minor and technical. Their purpose is to reflect the changes made to the reservation of the IER digital service in clause 3 by amendment 92. Amendment 99 ensures that subsection (4) of new section 12 of the Scotland Act 1998 refers to the amended reservation of the digital service in clause 3—I trust that everybody is taking notes and following closely. Amendment 100 removes the now unnecessary definition of the digital service in clause 4, again as a result of the amended reservation of the digital service in clause 3.
Amendments 102 to 105 are technical amendments that reflect the changes made to the reservation of the IER digital service in clause 3 by amendment 92. Amendment 102 ensures that the regulation-making power of Scottish Ministers in this provision refers to the amended reservation of the digital service in clause 3. Amendment 103 removes the definitions of “the digital service” and “the use of the digital service” from the clause, as they are no longer technically required. Amendment 104 ensures that clause 6 refers to the amended reservation of the digital service, as made by the amendment to clause 3. Finally, amendment 105 removes the definitions of “the digital service” and “elections in Scotland” that are also no longer required as a result of that further amendment.
Let me turn to the other amendments that are part of this wider group. I will start with amendment 42 and the elements of amendments 60 and 61 that relate to clauses 3 and 5 and the continued reservation of certain combinations of polls. The clauses fulfil the Smith commission agreement devolving significant electoral powers to the Scottish Parliament while ensuring that polls for Scottish parliamentary general elections will not be held on the same day as UK parliamentary general elections, European parliamentary general elections or ordinary local government elections in Scotland, which have already been devolved.
Ian Murray
Will the Minister explain why the entirety of the administration of Scottish parliamentary and local government elections is devolved to the Scottish Parliament while the UK Parliament reserves the right not to have Scottish parliamentary and local government elections on the same day? Why not devolve them all to allow the Scottish Parliament to make that decision?
John Penrose
That is a question I asked myself a short while ago. The reason is very straightforward. Although the two powers are devolved, as the hon. Gentleman rightly points out, changing the rules surrounding them and on whether or not they can happen on the same day is a reserved power. As that is a reserved power, it makes sense to keep any potential combination of elections as a reserved power for the time being, as the two powers match up. Were it to be within the competence of the Scottish Parliament to vary that, it would make sense for the Scottish Government to have the power to adjust the combination rules. As it is, the two match up closely.
Pete Wishart
I am grateful for that explanation. The key issue we face in the next year is the prospect of an EU referendum being held on the same day as the Scottish parliamentary elections. Would he like to take the opportunity to say what he thinks about that and to rule it out? We cannot have 16 and 17-year-olds coming into the polling booth to vote in the Scottish Parliament election, possibly being ID-ed, and then being turned out as they cannot vote in the EU referendum.
The Chairman of Ways and Means (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Order. We need to watch out so that we do not go outside the scope of what we are discussing. That is the danger. As much as the hon. Gentleman wants to tempt the Minister, I want him to try to stay within the scope of the Bill and to try to answer along those lines.
John Penrose
I shall endeavour to be as helpful as I can when I reach amendment 43, which is closely adjacent to the points made by the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart), without, I hope, trying your patience in the process, Mr Hoyle.
Clauses 3 and 5 fulfil the Smith commission agreement devolving significant electoral powers to the Scottish Parliament while ensuring that polls for Scottish parliamentary ordinary general elections will not be held on the same day as UK parliamentary general elections, European general elections or ordinary government elections, as we just discussed. The UK Government consider the timing and combination of polls to be intrinsically linked. I think that we might have covered that point, but I want to make sure that it is clear. That is why the combination of polls involving a reserved poll with a poll at a Scottish parliamentary election or local government election in Scotland continues to be reserved, as does the combination of a poll at a Scottish parliamentary ordinary general election with a poll at an ordinary local government election in Scotland. I urge Members to withdraw their amendments for the reasons that I have just given.
Amendment 43 seeks to ensure that it would not be possible for a Scottish parliamentary general election to be held on the same day as a referendum called under reserved powers. The hon. Member for Caerphilly gets top marks for ingenuity for trying to shoehorn into the Bill before us today a measure which affects tomorrow’s business. I understand that there are strong views on the issue and I promise him that we are considering them carefully. He will know that an amendment has been tabled for the business tomorrow which is very similar to this one and will allow the issue to be debated in some depth. I therefore encourage my right hon. and hon. Friends to resist the opportunity to support the amendment, if only because it would not be fair to Members of other devolved Parliaments and Assemblies, which may have elections on the same day as the Scottish elections next year, for such a measure to be dealt with in a Scottish Bill when we have the opportunity to deal with it properly tomorrow.
The Deputy Leader of the House of Commons (Dr Thérèse Coffey)
I thank the hon. and learned Member for Edinburgh South West (Joanna Cherry) and the right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr Carmichael) for their contributions. A number of significant points have been raised and, in responding to them, I will set out the Government’s approach.
I will start by speaking to a number of minor and technical Government amendments. Government amendments 108 to 110 will give Scottish Ministers the power to modify additional sections of the Scotland Act 1998 within their devolved competence and will clarify the extent to which those and other sections can be modified.
Amendment 108 will allow the Scottish Parliament to modify subsections (1) and (3) to (5) of section 112 of the 1998 Act to the extent that they apply to any power exercisable within devolved competence to make subordinate legislation. Amendment 109 will ensure that the Scottish Parliament can modify subsections (1) and (3) to (5) of section 112, section 113, section 115 and schedule 7 to the 1998 Act so far as those provisions apply to making subordinate legislation, including Orders in Council made by Her Majesty in areas of devolved competence. Amendment 110 will give the Scottish Parliament the power to modify section 124 of the 1998 Act, in so far as it applies to making subordinate legislation in areas of devolved competence. Those amendments will ensure that the Scottish Parliament can modify how the relevant sections apply to subordinate legislation made by Scottish Ministers and to Orders in Council made by Her Majesty that fall within devolved competence.
Amendments 62 to 66 and amendments 21 and 22 seek to amend clause 10, which fulfils the Smith commission agreement to require certain types of electoral legislation to be passed by a two-thirds majority of the Scottish Parliament. I thank the hon. and learned Lady and the right hon. Gentleman for those amendments. The Government believe that our approach to clause 10 delivers on paragraph 27 of the Smith commission agreement, which identified that there are certain types of electoral legislation on which a broad consensus is important. The commission agreed that such a procedure should apply to legislation that changes the franchise, the electoral system or the number of constituencies and regional Members of the Scottish Parliament.
Although the Government will reflect on the points that were made, we do not support those amendments, because we believe that at least two thirds of the Members of the Scottish Parliament should vote in favour of legislation that comes under clause 10 at the final stage. We recognise that that means there will have to be a vote, rather than a Bill passed by consensus, but we believe that the clause implements the intention behind the Smith commission agreement. As the Smith commission recognised, the super-majority requirement is an important safeguard of legislative powers. It is for this reason that I urge hon. Members not to press the amendments.
Amendments 21 and 22, in the name of the right hon. Gentleman, go beyond the Smith commission agreement, which did not propose that legislation relating to the term length of the Scottish Parliament, or the date of any Scottish Parliament ordinary general election, should be subject to that two thirds majority; neither did the agreement state that the Bills concerning the alteration of boundaries of constituencies, regions or any other equivalent electoral area for the Scottish Parliament should be covered by this requirement. For that reason, I ask the right hon. Gentleman not to press his amendments.
Mr Alistair Carmichael
In principle, why would the parliamentary term length be different from the other functions the Minister listed?
Ian Murray
I did not want the moment to pass without congratulating the hon. Lady on her first time at the Dispatch Box and saying that we are delighted to see her.
Dr Coffey
Well, that is very sweet. The hon. Gentleman and I, in our very first summer here together as Members of Parliament, had the joy of going to the United States of America to participate in the British-American parliamentary group. We have been firm friends since. [Hon. Members: “Ooh!”] Exactly—what goes on in Vegas, stays in Vegas.
Clause 10 implements paragraph 27 of the Smith commission agreement, which identified that it is important to have an adequate check on certain types of Scottish Parliament electoral legislation. The Smith commission recommended that UK legislation should provide that such legislation is passed by a two-thirds majority of the Scottish Parliament. The Government agree that this provides an important safeguard. It is possible, of course, that there may be discussions on whether a particular Bill is in fact this type of legislation.
Clause 10 also allows the Advocate General, the Lord Advocate or the Attorney General to refer to the Supreme Court the question of whether a certain piece of legislation requires a two-thirds majority of the Scottish Parliament. The Supreme Court already provides a similar role on whether a particular matter is within the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament, so I will move that clause 10 stand part of the Bill.
Amendments 67 to 88 concern clause 11, which delivers on the Smith commission recommendation to give the Scottish Parliament greater powers in relation to the arrangements and operation of the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government. It does this by enabling the Scottish Parliament to modify relevant sections of the Scotland Act 1998. I am sure that the Secretary of State will wish to reflect on this to ensure that the agreed powers work correctly, but the Government are clear that the substantial new powers devolved under clause 11 are the right ones.
A number of the amendments to clause 11 would allow further modification of the 1998 Act beyond the scope of the transfer of powers envisaged by the Smith commission. The Bill already transfers substantial powers to modify the Act, consistent with the commission, and the Government do not believe it is right to go beyond that.
The hon. and learned Member for Edinburgh South West referred in particular to amendment 67. Indeed, the right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland said that this matter should be consistent across the UK, reinforcing that this is a reserved for the UK Parliament and not a devolved matter. The hon. and learned Lady said that the UK Government had not been clear on some aspects of this matter. I believe that the Prime Minister has been clear at this Dispatch Box. Amendment 67 would amend the Bill such that paragraph 1 of schedule 4 to the 1998 Act would be modified to remove the Human Rights Act 1998 from the list of legislation the Scottish Parliament cannot modify, otherwise known as the “protected enactments”.
The Committee will be aware that the Government outlined their proposal to reform and modernise our human rights framework by replacing the Human Rights Act with a Bill of Rights. That was reinforced today by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister at the celebration of the 800th anniversary of Magna Carta. Of course, we are aware of the possible devolution implications of reform and we can engage with the devolved Administrations as we develop the proposals. As the Secretary of State said, the Sewel convention, as intended by Lord Sewel, has been placed in the Bill, but this Parliament remains sovereign. The Government are certainly committed to human rights and, as I indicated earlier, we will consider the devolution implications.
Pete Wishart
That is just not good enough. These are fundamental and profound issues for the Scottish Parliament. We are dependent on the Human Rights Act for the competence of the Parliament. Will the Minister vow to go forward, make sure this is looked at properly, and come back with a more suitable and substantial response?
Dr Coffey
The hon. Gentleman is right that these are important matters, and I can assure him that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State is engaging with the devolved Administration as we develop the proposals. It has to be said, however, that the amendment is squarely outwith the Smith commission agreement, which contained no proposals in this respect. The hon. and learned Member for Edinburgh South West herself said it was not directly a matter for the Scottish Parliament.
Clause 11 contains important provisions that transfer substantial new powers to ensure that the Scottish Parliament has a greater role and greater powers to make decisions about the operation and administration of itself and the Scottish Government. By doing so, the clause delivers a critical element of the Smith commission package. Among other matters, the clause transfers greater powers to the Scottish Parliament over its membership and proceedings and over the composition and powers of the Scottish Government. I hope that the Committee will agree to the clause.
Joanna Cherry
We are also grateful to see the hon. Lady in her place, and she is always welcome to make a contribution to Scottish debates, but I regret that her contribution today does not give us the comfort we seek on the protection of human rights in Scotland. We do not wish to press our amendment to a vote tonight, but we reserve the right to return to these matters later in the Bill’s proceedings. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 10 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 11
Scope to modify the Scotland Act 1998
Amendments made: 108, page 13, line 32, before “section” insert
“section 112(1) and (3) to (5),”.
This amendment would allow the Scottish Parliament to modify subsections (1) and (3) to (5) of section 112 of the Scotland Act 1998 to the extent that those subsections apply to any power exercisable within devolved competence to make subordinate legislation.
Amendment 109, page 13, line 34, leave out from “power” to end of line 36 and insert
“exercisable within devolved competence to make subordinate legislation),”.
This amendment would allow the Scottish Parliament to modify the sections of the Scotland Act 1998 to be listed at sub-paragraph 4(2)(e)(i) of Schedule 4 so far as those sections apply to any powers exercisable within devolved competence to make subordinate legislation (including Orders in Council).
Amendment 110, page 13, line 37, at end insert
“, and
(iii) section 124 (so far as that section applies to any power exercisable within devolved competence to make subordinate legislation),”—(Stephen Barclay.)
This amendment would allow the Scottish Parliament to modify section 124 of the Scotland Act 1998 to the extent that the section applies to any power exercisable within devolved competence to make subordinate legislation.
Amendment proposed: 89, page 13, line 42, at end insert—
‘(2A) In paragraph 4 of Schedule 4 (protection of Scotland Act 1998 from modification), insert new sub-paragraph—
“(5A) This paragraph does not apply to amendments to Schedule 5, Part II, Head A, Section A1 insofar as they relate to:
(a) taxes and excise in Scotland,
(b) government borrowing and lending in Scotland, and
(c) control over public expenditure in Scotland.” —(Joanna Cherry.)
This amendment would enable the Scottish Parliament to amend the Scotland Act 1998 to remove the reservation on taxation, borrowing and public expenditure in Scotland, with the effect that the Scottish Parliament could then legislate in these areas to provide for full fiscal autonomy in Scotland.
Question put, That the amendment be made.