Railways: High-speed Rail

Earl Attlee Excerpts

Tuesday 10th January 2012 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, with the leave of the House, I will now repeat a Statement made in the House of Commons by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Transport. The Statement is as follows:

“Mr Speaker, this morning I made a Written Statement to this House announcing my decision to give the go-ahead to High Speed 2—a national high-speed rail network. With the exception of High Speed 1, it will be the first major national railway line to be built in Britain since the grand central line in 1899. I would like to provide Members with further detail of the substance and rationale for my decisions.

I weighed up the evidence after one of the largest public consultations in our history. We wrote to more than 172,000 people living or working near the proposed line from London to the West Midlands, visited communities along the 140-mile route and held 41 days of road shows attended by almost 30,000 people over the five-month consultation period. Almost 55,000 responses were received from individuals, businesses and organisations across the country, representing a wide spectrum of views, many of which were strongly expressed both in favour of and against high-speed rail, views I carefully considered in making my decisions.

Since becoming Secretary of State for Transport, I have examined all the available evidence, including the work undertaken by my right honourable friend the Member for Runnymede and Weybridge and the previous Labour Administration in developing the consultation proposals, the evidence submitted during consultation and the further work undertaken by my department and HS2 Ltd. My decision had to take in the full environmental impact of HS2, but also the benefits of HS2 to our economy, to jobs and to competitiveness, not just today, but decades into the future. I also had to be clear about the implications of not investing in high speed, how that would affect our leading cities and how that would affect the road network and aviation.

Generating growth and helping people back to work, supporting Britain’s companies and wealth creators so they can compete and win in the global marketplace—these are at the top of this Government’s priority list. From day one in office, the coalition has had a laser focus on investing in and modernising this country’s transport infrastructure. Now, when it came to HS2, I could have made the easy choice, gone for the short-term option, rely on a patch-and-mend approach and leave our rail networks overstretched, overburdened and less resilient.

Well, let us be clear: the price for that would have been paid in lost business, lower growth, fewer jobs and more misery for passengers. We would have failed future generations who are depending on us to create the prosperous country they will want to live in. Good government is about acting in the long-term national interest. It is about taking decisions, however difficult, to improve people’s quality of life and the country’s economic prospects not just for the next four or five years but for the next four or five decades.

Our Victorian predecessors would have had immense pride to see their railways providing massive benefit today, over 100 years later, but as a result of today’s announcement the railway revolution they started is happening once again. We are ready for a new chapter in Britain’s transport history, one that is designed to boost our economy and our country just as the first coming of the railways or the motorways did for previous generations. That is precisely why I have given the green light to HS2.

In spite of the challenges of rising demand, our railways have been a huge success since privatisation. Passenger demand is growing year on year, particularly in the inter-city market, but I also recognise that further rounds of upgrades to our major north-south lines, even if they offer apparently good value for money, can provide only a short-term fix, one that is incapable of meeting the long-term challenge. In truth, they could add only limited further capacity. They could not offer the step change in performance that passengers wish to see. Moreover, upgrades would consign rail passengers and the vitally important rail freight industry to years, if not decades, of future engineering disruption, delay and unreliability—something users of the west coast main line will remember only too well.

Therefore, the question is not, “Do we build new lines?”; it is, “What type of new line should we build?”. When you weigh up the economic and social rewards, there is only one answer: high-speed rail. A high-speed line will deliver £6.2 billion more of benefits to the country than a line running at conventional speeds—at an extra cost of only £1.4 billion. By slashing journey times, as well as providing the step change in rail capacity that we need to keep the country moving, it will give a return on the additional investment of more than four to one. A modern, reliable and fast service between our major cities and international gateways, befitting the 21st century, will transform the way we travel and promote Britain’s economic and social prosperity.

HS2 will be built in two phases to ensure delivery of its benefits at the earliest possible opportunity. Phase 1 will link London to the West Midlands, plus a direct connection to the continent through the Channel Tunnel via High Speed 1. Even in the first phase, cities and towns off the HS2 network such as Stockport, Warrington, Liverpool, Preston and Glasgow will be served by trains able to use both HS2 and existing intercity lines, saving over half an hour on journeys to London. Phase 2 will provide onward legs to Manchester and Leeds, with intermediate stations in the East Midlands and South Yorkshire, plus a direct connection to our international hub, Heathrow Airport.

HS2 will mean very substantial time savings between Britain’s cities, reducing the journey from Birmingham to Leeds from two hours to just 57 minutes, and Manchester to London from two hours eight minutes to only one hour eight minutes. Edinburgh and Glasgow will benefit from a three and a half-hour journey time from London, encouraging modal shift from short-haul flights to high-speed rail.

In delivering HS2, I look forward to working with the Scottish Government and others to identify and evaluate options for developing the high-speed network and further reducing journey times. However, I emphasise to the House that in making my decisions I have been particularly mindful of our responsibility to safeguard the countryside and its wildlife, and to protect local communities as far as possible. I have worked hard to look at more tunnelling, to lower the route into cutting to reduce visibility and to move the route away from homes wherever viable. I have looked at how we can better protect our landscape, wildlife and heritage. My engineers have carefully re-examined the route in light of all the evidence, and I can therefore announce a package of alterations that significantly reduce the railway’s impacts.

The improvements include a longer, continuous tunnel under the Chilterns from Little Missenden to the M25, and a new 2.75-mile bored tunnel along the Northolt corridor to avoid major works to the Chiltern line and impacts on local communities in the Ruislip area. Of the 13 miles through the Chilterns area of outstanding natural beauty, fewer than two miles will be at or above the surface; the rest will be in deep cutting or tunnel. There will also be a longer green tunnel past Chipping Warden and Aston le Walls, another longer green tunnel to reduce impacts around Wendover, and an extension to the green tunnel at South Heath. There will also be a green tunnel past Greatworth. These are just a few of the suite of improvements, which are detailed in full in the Command Paper I presented to the House this morning.

The changes will bring significant benefits to communities and the environment. Compared to the consultation route, there will be a more than 50 per cent increase in tunnel or green tunnel, totalling around 22.5 miles. In addition, around 56.5 miles will be partially or totally hidden in cutting, a key way of helping to reduce noise in neighbouring communities. There will be 10 miles fewer of viaduct or embankment. In all, this means that around 79 miles—more than half the route—will be mitigated by tunnel or cutting. The revised tunnel alignment through the Chilterns will avoid an important aquifer, significantly reducing impacts on water resources. There will also be a reduction in the impacts on ancient woodlands and heritage sites.

Communities affected will benefit from the changes, with a near 50 per cent reduction in the number of dwellings at risk of land-take, and the number experiencing noticeably increased noise levels reducing by a third to just over 3,000 properties. I have always been very clear in my mind that, whatever the mitigation measures, there can be little comfort in knowing that the country will benefit enormously from HS2 when it is your house or business that has to be knocked down to make way for it.

The meeting I had with MPs last year allowed many of those representing communities along the proposed route to communicate to me directly the views of their constituents. To help people, we will bring in a package of compensation measures over and above what affected homeowners are already entitled to under law. These include: a streamlined purchase scheme to simplify the statutory blight process for property owners; a sale and rent-back scheme to give homeowners within the safeguarded area more flexibility; a streamlined small claims scheme for any construction damage; and a package of measures to reinforce confidence in properties above tunnels.

Homeowners will be offered before and after surveys, a thorough assessment of the impact of similar tunnels, an explanation of the measures that will be taken to prevent perceptible vibration impacts, financial compensation for the compulsory purchase of subsoil, and a legally binding promise that HS2 will be permanently responsible for resolving any related settlement or subsidence issues. There will also be a refreshed hardship-based property purchase scheme. Finally, we will work constructively and in a structured way with local authorities along the line of route to minimise the negative consequences of HS2 and maximise the benefits.

Having made the decision to press on with HS2, my intention is to drive it forward as fast as is practicable so that we can gain from its benefits as early as possible, and to end unwelcome uncertainty for those affected. A key part of this will be to engage fully and actively with organisations, communities and individuals along the whole Y network. People presented legitimate concerns in the consultation and, even though we have made significant improvements, I am keen to work hard with local communities so that as many concerns as possible are properly addressed.

I have instructed HS2 Ltd to undertake a range of activities to prepare for and to deliver both phases of the network. It is my intention to introduce a hybrid Bill by the end of 2013, including a detailed environmental impact assessment, to provide the necessary powers to construct and operate the line from London to Birmingham. I have instructed HS2 Ltd to deliver this project at pace but within milestones that will stand the test of time and with regular reporting to me on progress. The Major Projects Authority, which this Government launched last March to improve the performance of major government projects in delivering on time and in budget, will provide critical support and oversight.

This spring we will consult on the draft directions for safeguarding the proposed route from London to the West Midlands, as well as separately consulting on detailed compensation proposals. I aim to bring final safeguarding directions and an agreed compensation policy into effect later in the year. In March this year HS2 will advise me on route and station options to Manchester and Leeds, and in autumn 2012 we will start an engagement programme on a preferred route to discuss local views. I warmly welcome the political consensus on HS2 on the basis that it will help in the planning and construction of this transformational scheme as it is carried through to completion.

HS2 matters to the long-term success and prosperity of the whole of Britain. It will help to create jobs, support growth and regenerate our regions. It will better connect communities and improve people’s opportunities. With its potential to attract people and freight on to trains and away from long-distance road journeys and short-haul flying, combined with the increasing decarbonisation of the grid, HS2 is an important part of transport’s low-carbon future

Britain has faced such challenges before. The Victorian railway pioneers had the vision to build a rail network that has promoted growth and created jobs for more than a century. Those innovators transformed this country’s fortunes. Our industries flourished, our exports multiplied and our economy grew wealthy. Half a century later, another generation had the vision to start building the motorway network. Post-war planners developed the motorway network, connecting major cities and transforming the capacity of our road network.

Half a century on again, we now need to do for our Victorian railway what previous generations did for our road network. The time has come again to seize the moment, to be ambitious and to show the world that this is a can-do country. The lesson from history, and the lessons from our global competitors, is that no matter how hard times are, we cannot stop planning for the future, or investing in our infrastructure, if we want Britain to flourish.

HS2 will be the backbone of a new transport system for the 21st century, offering the vital capacity that we need to compete and grow as a country. It will transform the economic shape and balance of our country, linking our major cities to a level that previous generations could only dream of. By backing HS2, this Government are backing Britain, and I commend the Statement to the House”.

That concludes the Statement.

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[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I am grateful for the support of the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham. I have no hesitation in paying tribute to the work of the noble Lord, Lord Adonis. The noble Lord asked about legislation that would cover the whole of the Y network. We are absolutely committed to the whole Y network, but noble Lords will be aware how difficult and detailed the necessary legislation will be just to cover the portion from London to Birmingham. Noble Lords should remember that this route alone is roughly twice as long as HS1 and that that legislation took some time to take through Parliament. I think that the sensible course of action is to get a hybrid Bill through for phase one. Noble Lords should remember that northern cities will benefit straightaway from the saving of half an hour in travel time from Birmingham to London. Noble Lords will also appreciate the need to schedule properly such large construction work for industry. We want to avoid the problem of feast and famine.

The noble Lord touched on the issue of the route through the Chilterns. I am advised that any alternative route would be considerably more expensive. On the issue of Heathrow, the spur will not be viable to service Heathrow until the full Y network is in place. That is why the spur will be constructed as part of the completion of the Y network connecting Manchester and Leeds. It will then become viable because of the increased traffic going to Heathrow.

The noble Lord also asked about the Y network. The Government are committed to the delivery of the full Y network. There would be little sense in stopping the network at Birmingham. The Secretary of State is actively exploring options for the inclusion of a purpose clause in the first hybrid Bill in order to demonstrate the Government’s commitment to the full Y network. I hope that that gives some comfort to the noble Lord.

[Lord Snape]

My Lords, as a founder member of the All-Party Parliamentary Rail Group in the other place and its first chairman, I congratulate the Minister on the Statement that he has repeated today. I further congratulate the Government on having the courage to go ahead with this project, which they have inherited from their predecessors, in the face of some pretty virulent opposition from people who could perhaps be regarded as traditional supporters of the noble Earl’s political party. I also support my noble friend on the Front Bench in his plea that the Government should look again at the question of the first hybrid Bill. The Minister will be aware that these Bills take many months, if not years, to get through both Houses, and the thought of two or three of these Bills is not going to speed up the project in the way that he might like.

Finally, how much is the new tunnel through the Chilterns going to cost? Some estimates suggest that it will be around £500 million. Does he agree that that is a pretty steep price to pay in order to keep the Welsh Secretary in the Cabinet? Is it not just as well that she is the only member of the Cabinet who has threatened resignation over this project, otherwise the total bill could well have been doubled?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the noble Lord asked about the cost of the extra tunnelling. I do not have the full details, but they will be set out in the accompanying literature. A CD of the large bundle of documents that I have is available and I will ensure that all noble Lords who take part in these debates are given a copy of it. I am advised that the extra tunnelling through the Chilterns is cost neutral.

[Lord Mawhinney]

My Lords, I join those noble Lords who have congratulated the Government on this decision and on the fact that it is a cross-party decision. I was in office as the Secretary of State for Transport when the HS1 hybrid Bill was launched and I should tell my noble friend that it is a long, complicated and difficult process. For that reason, I encourage him to think again about whether it is really necessary to have two hybrid Bills or if it might not be more sensible to invite colleagues to gird their loins and do it once. It is not an easy or pleasant process, but it is absolutely vital and it would offer reassurance to those in the north of England. In that context, as my noble friend will know, when the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, was in office, he asked me to do the work on the High Speed 2 link to Heathrow, which this Government have accepted. I am pleased to see that they are going to put the spur into Heathrow during the second phase. He is right to say that it would not be financially viable before that. But that links back to the fact that aviation in this country would be more reassured if there was one hybrid Bill which included the Heathrow spur. Otherwise, it will only be in the second Bill, which could foster uncertainty about the aviation future of this country for too long.

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[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, my noble friend is right to say that the hybrid Bill process is long and complicated. He suggests that we should do this in one Bill. I should point out that a difficulty with that is that, while we could secure political co-operation to deal with the Bill as expeditiously as possible, my noble friend will be aware that outside organisations can petition against a Bill as long as they have a locus, and there is nothing that we can do in Parliament to stop that—and I am not sure that we would want to either. My noble friend talked about including provisions for the spur in the initial hybrid Bill. I make no promises whatever, but I will mention his suggestion to my right honourable friend the Secretary of State.

[Lord Berkeley]

I very much welcome the Statement. It would be helpful if the Minister, through his colleagues in the Commons, could encourage as many Members of Parliament as possible along the route—they may have strongly opposed the project—to look at their constituents’ best interests now and say, “Right, we’ll work with this and get the best mitigating measures possible”. That is what happened with the Channel Tunnel, which I worked on, and High Speed 1. Members of Parliament, led by the noble Lord, Lord Howard, did extremely well in looking after their constituents’ interests rather than opposing the principle.

I have one question for the Minister on the connection between HS2 and HS1. I welcome the fact that there will be a railway connection, which is mentioned in the document, but I am very concerned that it will run for about half a mile along the North London line, which is not only at its most congested there—most people would say that it is full already—but will not be capable of taking any international train of the current design. I do not know whether that is another reason for the scheme not getting any European money, which my noble friend Lord Davies of Oldham referred to; but to make the system work, there has to be a through connection built to the new gauge. I understand from Network Rail that it is technically quite possible to do so, and it would probably be cheaper too.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I am pleased to say that opposition to the scheme is waning in the light of the work done by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State and her predecessor, and I suspect that the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, might have done a little bit of work on the side as well. We must not forget that the duty of MPs is to represent their constituents.

The noble Lord asked about the important question of connectivity between HS2 and HS1. The North London line, to which he referred, will support at least three trains per hour in each direction while also maintaining the current service levels. Some gauge clearance will be necessary to accommodate the wider and taller HS2 trains on the North London line. We are confident that this can be achieved with minimal impacts on the local community and rail services.

[Baroness Scott of Needham Market]

My Lords, I very much welcome the Statement and, more importantly, the commitment to go ahead with the project. Does the Minister agree that if we are going to spend this amount of public money in these difficult times, it is very important that the public should have a general sense that this is a good thing; and that rather than the argument being entirely hijacked by questions of shaving minutes off journey times between London and Birmingham, we need to keep referring to the line in the context of a very important scheme to link the whole country together and then on to Europe? I am sure the Minister would agree that had Brunel started the Great Western line by saying that he was building the Maidenhead link, nobody would have been very inspired.

[Earl Attlee]

I agree with my noble friend. It is a capacity problem that we are trying to address. If we do not do something, we will run out of capacity on the west coast main line.

[Lord Skidelsky]

My Lords, I, too, welcome the Minister’s Statement. I have a couple of questions. How soon, and by what date, does the Minister expect to see some employment effects from this scheme? Does he agree with me that, given the massive spare capacity in the construction industry, it is important to start at least preliminary work as quickly as possible? Reference has been made to the Victorians. The Victorians built their much larger railway system far quicker than the leisurely pace envisaged by the HS2 scheme, and with inferior technology.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the noble Lord referred to the benefits of these construction projects for employment. He needs to remember that the Crossrail project is already running and providing considerable employment. He spoke also about the achievements of the Victorians. We have a slightly more developed democratic process than they had, so we cannot get the legislation through quite as fast as they were able to.

[Lord Faulkner of Worcester]

I am sure that the Minister will be heartened by the so far universal expressions of support for the Government’s decision. I should like to add to them; I think that this is a very significant day for Britain’s railways and represents a real step change in our approach to transport policy. When I was working at the railways board in the late 1980s and 1990s, an official from the Department of Transport joined the board as a non-executive member, looked around the table at his first meeting and said, “You must understand that my job is to preside over the orderly decline of the railway”. That was only 20 years ago, so this decision and the fact that the government document that goes with it contains statements such as,

“the Government does not consider that there is a case for major new motorways”,

and,

“It does not … support a new runway at Heathrow and wants to see modal shift away from domestic routes where possible”,

with the emphasis in future to be on the railway, are very significant.

Can the Minister confirm that the package of compensation proposed in the Statement is significantly more generous than that accorded to householders who are affected by road-building programmes?

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[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I am grateful for the general support from the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner. On his specific question, we have improved the compensation arrangements for people affected, but I cannot say whether it is better than the arrangements for those affected by road construction projects. Inspiration has now come from the Box—but sometimes inspiration is not quite as complete as one would hope. My note says that compensation will be more generous than the law requires, but that does not necessarily mean that it is more generous than that for a road-building project. It might be possible—for instance, if someone was building a DBFO motorway or road project—to offer greater compensation, but I simply do not know. However, I do know that good compensation arrangements were announced today.

[Lord Cormack]

My Lords, I hope that I can expect an equally quick answer to the question that I will now ask as one who still has real concerns and misgivings about the environmental impact of this scheme in a tightly populated country where beauty is extremely fragile and where one of the loveliest areas of rural England is under threat. Is the National Trust, which advanced some extremely well constructed and moderate opposition to this proposal, now tolerably satisfied with the mitigation that my noble friend talked about?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I do not know the answer to the noble Lord’s question, but I shall write to him.

[Lord Lea of Crondall]

My Lords, I convened a meeting six months ago between all the local authorities and villages affected by HS1, which had been through all this process with the Channel Tunnel link, and the local authorities and campaigners involved with HS2. What surprised some of the people in the line of HS2 was the degree of political satisfaction obtained by all the villages along the line of HS1, so that they can now say that there is nobody in Kent who will say that it was the disaster predicted. Nobody at that meeting said it, and I think that it was a penny that dropped. Although some of the changes to this route might seem disproportionate—for example, the proposal on page 98 to avoid Kenilworth Golf Club—they should be paid for, because at the end of the day, in 10 or 15 years’ time, I suspect that public opinion will generally see the benefits substantially outweighing the costs, including the benefits for the people along the West Midlands line and the Y extending to the north. Will the Minister comment on that?

[Earl Attlee]

The noble Lord makes an important point. I referred earlier to the work that both Houses did on the Channel Tunnel Rail Link Act. Local people were able to petition if the developers had not privately met their needs. The effort expended during that planning process has clearly given us long-term benefits. However, it is important not to short circuit the approval process of this project, otherwise we could face serious problems when we try to start the construction phase. That would be much more expensive than doing it properly in the first place.

[Lord Bradshaw]

Will the Minister consider the methods of appraisal that are likely to be used in producing the economic case? We now use economic measures that were developed in the 1960s and used on the Victoria line and on motorways. These put excessive emphasis on values of time and mean that the discounted cash flows which apply almost run out in 20 years. If we are building a line that will last 120 years, which I think it will, perhaps the noble Earl could ask his right honourable friend the Minister whether there should not be a reappraisal of how we look at these schemes, and to bring forward a different scheme from the one that is used now—which employs lots of people but produces nonsense results. I can assure him that that is the case.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the noble Lord has made this point more than once. I suspect that it has some validity, and at a suitable opportunity I will discuss it with ministerial colleagues.

[Lord Grantchester]

My Lords, my noble friend mentioned the Y network. I believe that the base of the split of the Y will be at Lichfield. The Statement refers to the east arm of the Y, with intermediate stations in the East Midlands and South Yorkshire. The West Midlands route to the north-west is also of crucial importance. Our Victorian pioneers obviously knew what they were doing when they placed the gateway to the north-west at Crewe, as this opens up Liverpool, Derbyshire, Lancashire and Cumbria, as well as Wales, both north and mid-Wales. This Trent Valley route will build on the existing mix of the north-west, link to the airports and, as I understand it, the new deep port plans for Wales. It is also important that there are east-west links which, through Crewe, could link back to Manchester and the east side. Can the Minister tell the House the Government’s plans for this west north-west route and assure us that these phasing plans through legislation do not get interpreted as just focusing HS2 on the south?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the noble Lord has asked me a detailed question about route strategy, and I shall be delighted to write to him.

[Lord Marlesford]

My Lords, given the huge success of the port of Felixstowe in the 25 years since it was bought, developed and now operated by Mr Li Ka-Shing using Hong Kong Chinese capital, will the Government consider encouraging China, which has much resource to invest overseas in infrastructure, to finance, build and, if possible, operate the new line?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I am sure that Her Majesty’s Government look at all possible sources of finance.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

My Lords, I declare an interest as a resident of the Chilterns, and indeed of the village of Little Missenden, which the Minister kindly mentioned a few minutes ago. I am afraid that I cannot join the general celebration of the announcement today. That is not because I feel that the Chilterns are being badly treated—although I think that they are—but because I share some of the points made earlier about the way in which the business case has been made. I shall return to that at some other time. A key concern of many of the residents in this area, and of many others looking at this matter, is the environmental case. Can the Minister explain why that has been delayed and why we have so far not seen anything on it? Can he say when it will be published?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I have to declare a slight interest—not only am I the Earl Attlee; I am also Viscount Prestwood, because my grandfather lived in the village of Prestwood. The noble Lord asked about the environmental impact assessment. As he points out, that will be produced later on. However, it is a very detailed document. There has been some sustainability assessment of the proposed route, but the environmental impact assessment will be very detailed and look at how we will deal with every adverse impact. That will come along with the hybrid Bill.

[Lord Shipley]

My Lords, in welcoming the announcement—

Transport for London Bill [HL]

Earl Attlee Excerpts

Tuesday 13th December 2011 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, on moving her Bill so expertly, and I am grateful for the contributions of other noble Lords. I shall resist the temptation provided by the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, to discuss rolling stock purchases.

I do not oppose this Second Reading. However, I should make it clear that the Government also have some reservations about the powers in the Bill as presently drafted. Officials from the Department for Transport are currently in discussion with Transport for London on these provisions and I look forward to a more detailed examination of them in Committee.

[Lord Berkeley]

As the Bill was, as I understand it, introduced about a year ago, have these discussions been going on continuously for a year? They are taking an awfully long time if that is the case.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, Transport for London is responsible for progressing the Bill. I am just giving some comments on behalf of the Government.

On the subject of the disposal of land and Clause 4 of the draft Bill, which has been one of the principal subjects of this debate, the Government are clear that the protection of strategically important assets must remain a priority. Furthermore, it would appear reasonable for the arrangements in London to parallel those on the national rail network, where there are restrictions analogous to those currently placed on Transport for London. I should also point out that Transport for London already has the power, without prior consent, to lease operational land for less than 50 years and to dispose of land that has not been operational for five years or more. I understand that Transport for London is looking further at this option and I look forward to its revised proposals.

Airports: Heathrow

Earl Attlee Excerpts

Monday 12th December 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Spicer]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assumption they make about capacity levels at peak times at Heathrow Airport when forming their transport plans.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, Heathrow Airport’s annual capacity is capped at 480,000 air transport movements, and the Department for Transport’s latest aviation forecasts assume there will be no increase in runway capacity to 2050. The Government do not make detailed assumptions about the airport’s capacity levels at peak times. This is a matter for the airport operator.

[Lord Spicer]

My Lords, my Question came with the bias of a former Aviation Minister. Given that Heathrow Airport is now effectively full at peak times, what is to be done about that while we wait 20 years for a new airport to be built in the Thames?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the short answer is that the South East Airports Taskforce, chaired by my right honourable friend Theresa Villiers, determined that there should be operational freedoms for Heathrow Airport to enable the airport to recover quickly from disruptions to operations.

[Lord Soley]

According to the Written Answers I have received from Ministers, when the Chinese Government, the Chinese civil aviation authority and the Chinese airlines have asked repeatedly for more landing slots at Heathrow they have been told that their views will be taken into consideration by the review. Is this not deeply embarrassing and totally hopeless, in view of the economic need of this country to relate to China and other countries of that nature?

[Baroness Kramer]

My Lords—

[Earl Attlee]

That was a bit quick, my Lords. We are grateful for all the input from all overseas Governments into our future aviation framework policy.

[Lord Trefgarne]

My Lords, as another member of the numerous club of former Aviation Ministers in your Lordships’ House, I ask the Minister whether the additional runway capacity that may in due course—perhaps fairly soon—be required in the south-east really cannot be at Heathrow.

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[Earl Attlee]

I am grateful to my noble friend. I am absolutely sure and clear that there will not be a third runway at Heathrow.

[Lord Clinton-Davis]

—will be available at Heathrow between 2012 and 2015? I would be obliged if the Minister could give me an answer.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I am very sorry but I did not catch the first part of the noble Lord’s question.

[Lord Clinton-Davis]

How many slots will be available at Heathrow between 2012 and 2015?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord. There will be no increase in slots at Heathrow, but the key point is that the number of aircraft movements is capped at 480,000 movements per year.

[Baroness Kramer]

My Lords, I apologise for my jack-in-the-box tendency earlier, which was due to my eagerness on this topic. Can the Minister confirm that operational freedoms are currently only in a pilot scheme and are undergoing consultation? Can he also confirm that the Government will be putting some pressure on the airlines to see whether they can move night flights into the post-6 am slot and to use quieter aircraft—the Airbus A380s, as they come on stream—for any flights that must happen at night?

[Earl Attlee]

My noble friend is quite right. The operational freedoms trial is in two phases: the current phase, and another phase largely over the Olympics period. One of the benefits of the operational freedoms trial is to reduce unscheduled night flights. I will have to write to my noble friend on the detail of her rather more searching questions.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, the House must be dismayed at the Minister’s negative response to this very important issue. After all, aviation is one of the important parts of the economy that is capable of growth, yet we are getting nothing but negative responses from the Government. Will the Minister at least acknowledge that we on the opposition Front Bench have offered to meet Ministers to see how we can plan a future for aviation that is considerably more productive than the Government’s present position, which is largely one of stalling and negativism?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, it is difficult to avoid being negative when the answer is, “No third runway at Heathrow”. However, we look forward to any contribution Her Majesty’s Opposition make to the future aviation policy framework. The Government want aviation to grow, but to do so it must play its part in delivering our environmental goals and protecting the quality of life of local communities. We are developing a sustainable framework for UK aviation that supports economic growth and addresses aviation’s environmental impacts.

[Baroness Gardner of Parkes]

My Lords, is the Minister aware that many airlines now are changing to larger aircraft, which will bring in many more passengers on each flight? Will that contribute to helping Heathrow to continue at least to receive more people, even if not more flights?

--- Later in debate ---

[Earl Attlee]

My noble friend makes an extremely good point. For instance, the A380 aircraft will be able to carry 450 to 500 passengers, and has the potential to grow significantly to its certified amount of 855.

[Baroness Liddell of Coatdyke]

My Lords, the tourism industry is very concerned about congestion at Heathrow, particularly as we approach 2012, which is such a significant year. I have a registered interest as a director of VisitBritain. We know that a number of airlines are not using their slots at Heathrow, thereby adding to the congestion. Will the Minister undertake to look at the situation and see whether there is a way of freeing up the slots that are being hoarded?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the slots at Heathrow are managed by an organisation called Airport Coordination Limited, which is independent of government, and has to be. However, it has mechanisms to ensure that slots are used as much as possible. As I understand it, there are penalties if it does not use all the slots economically.

Arrangement of Business

Earl Attlee Excerpts

Monday 12th December 2011 Grand Committee

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the Statement or Division is likely to occur very shortly. Unless any noble Lords object, I propose to adjourn the Committee until after the Statement.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Skelmersdale)]

My Lords, this is a most unusual procedure. I note that the Opposition Front Bench spokesman has not yet finished speaking in the Chamber, nor has the Minister responded. However, I am of course in the hands of the Grand Committee.

[The Marquess of Lothian]

In referring to the end of the Statement, does the noble Earl mean the end of my noble friend Lord Strathclyde’s Statement or the end of proceedings on the Statement as a whole, which I see has been extended to 40 minutes?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I was referring to the end of the proceedings on the Statement. If the Committee wants, it can start considering the report but my advice is to adjourn.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

My Lords, what is happening in the Chamber is fairly open-ended. If we adjourn, by the time the Statement and all the interventions are finished it could be quite late. A number of noble Lords wish to speak in this Committee and it could drag on and on. It might create problems for the Grand Committee in terms of the time we are able to meet. I counsel us to continue.

Cycling: Accidents

Earl Attlee Excerpts

Thursday 8th December 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Harrison]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many accidents have been caused by cyclists riding on pavements and how many cyclists have been charged with riding on pavements in the past year.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, in 2010, there were 680 reported personal injury road accidents involving cyclists on the footway on GB roads. The Department for Transport does not hold data on who caused such accidents. In 2010, 342 defendants were proceeded against in a magistrates’ court for the offence of cycling on a footway. However, this offence is normally dealt with by a fixed penalty notice and we do not collect information centrally on the number issued.

[Lord Harrison]

My Lords, one evening recently my wife and I stepped out to go to our local Chinese restaurant in Chester to be met by a young man on a bicycle advancing at speed. When confronted and challenged, he told us with an entirely straight face that, as he had no lights on his bike, he was obliged to ride on the pavement. Will the Minister first strengthen the powers of the police and community support officers to intervene where these cases happen? Will he intervene to improve the primary education of our young people learning about the art of cycling? Finally, will he improve the road environment for cyclists who mistakenly believe that it is legitimate to ride on the pavement as a result of the number of deaths attributable to the problems of cycling on the roadway?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I know that all noble Lords are very concerned about these issues and I come to the Dispatch Box with some trepidation on this Question. PCSOs, like constables in uniform, can issue fixed penalty notices in respect of an offence of riding a cycle on the footway contrary to Section 72 of the Highways Act 1835. I do not know about their powers regarding lights. Youngsters may be more susceptible to a word in their ear rather than a fixed penalty notice. Education is an extremely important part of the process.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss]

My Lords, speaking both as a driver and a pedestrian, what can be done to encourage cyclists not to cross the red lights and not to try to run down pedestrians on zebra crossings?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I thought I would get a question about red lights. We are extremely concerned about cyclists failing to adhere to the law, but noble Lords will understand that this is an operational matter for the police, who can best judge where to devote their efforts.

[Lord Haskel]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Bradshaw]

Does the noble Earl agree that there is antipathy between all classes of road users? For example, bus drivers hate cyclists, pedestrians hate cyclists and motorists hate lorries. However, it is important that the classification of what PCSOs and local authority wardens are able to do is reviewed, and ensure that all chief constables and wardens have the powers, which I do not believe they do, to intervene not just in cycling on pavements but also in all sorts of moving traffic offences.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the Question is essentially about cycling, and in respect of offences, I have already said that education is more important than enforcement, especially with youngsters. Frankly, it is not realistic to issue a fixed penalty notice to a 10 year-old.

[Lord Young of Norwood Green]

My Lords, as someone who cycles into the House every day, I cannot help feeling that I could paraphrase George Orwell by saying that this sounds like, “Four wheels good, two wheels bad”. I experience many irresponsible motorists on my journeys. There are motorists who think it is okay to overtake on a humpbacked bridge and those who think it is okay to go on the wrong side of a traffic island to overtake, not to mention the motorist who kindly almost ran me over on a roundabout earlier this week. Does the Minister agree that we should be encouraging more people to cycle, given that we want a low-carbon economy, and that we should also be encouraging responsible cycling and driving?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I absolutely agree with every word the noble Lord has said. I encourage all noble Lords and motorists to regularly read the Highway Code because the contents do change.

[Baroness Knight of Collingtree]

My Lords, does my noble friend recall that it is not many months since I asked a Question with regard to the education of those who seek to ride bicycles, bearing in mind that every other road user has to pass some sort of test or know what he is doing on the roads? Since that is linked with my noble friend’s answer to the question before last, can he say whether he thinks it would be possible to do more about educating cyclists before they hit the road and a lot of pedestrians?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, my noble friend makes an important point. That is why we have supported the development of the National Standard for Cycling and the related Bikeability training scheme. We have made a firm commitment to support Bikeability for the lifetime of the current Parliament and we are providing £11 million this year to local authorities and school games organisations so that 275,000 10 to 11 year-olds can benefit from on-road level 2 cycling training.

[Lord Sugar]

My Lords, from my recollection, the noble Earl has spoken on this subject several times. He has talked about the impracticality of licensing cyclists, which I agree with. However, can he inform us whether it is mandatory for cyclists using the roads to carry some form of identification on them? In the United States of America, for example—my noble friend Lord Young and I are big cyclists—we are told to carry identification so that the police can take action against people who ride on pavements or jump the lights. If you do not have identification with you, they will confiscate your bike and it is up to you to get it back by paying a big fine.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I can assure the House that we have no intention of requiring cyclists to carry identification.

Arrangement of Business

Earl Attlee Excerpts

Wednesday 7th December 2011 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, before we start the Question for Short Debate, I am pleased to announce that due to changes in the speakers list, we now have six minutes per Back-Bench speaker.

Renewable Transport Fuel Obligations (Amendment) Order 2011

Earl Attlee Excerpts

Tuesday 6th December 2011 Lords Chamber

Moved By

[Earl Attlee]

That the draft order laid before the House on 14 November be approved.

Relevant documents: 33rd Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, 44th Report from the Merits Committee, considered in Grand Committee on 5 December.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.

[Lord Bradshaw]

My Lords, before the Motion is put to the House, I should like to draw to the attention of the House the fact that the report of the Merits Committee on this order was published last Thursday. Nine noble Lords then debated the order yesterday in the Moses Room so we all expected that some notice would be taken. This morning the order appeared on the Order Paper and so there has been no opportunity to consider what was said in the Moses Room. This does not reflect well on the House or show that the Government really value the opinions of Peers before they place matters on the Order Paper.

--- Later in debate ---

[Viscount Eccles]

My Lords, I do not often find myself in agreement with the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, but on this occasion he is about 110 per cent right.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I accept the thrust of what noble Lords are saying. Regrettably this order is on a very tight timescale for a variety of reasons. I would like to make it clear that I very much value what noble Lords are saying. Yesterday, in Grand Committee, the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, said, at col. GC 160 of the Official Report, that the Opposition support the measure “inadequate” though it is. By using the word “inadequate”, I take it that he meant that the order deals only with sustainability and not the trajectory of biofuel take-up. I did of course deal with that point yesterday, and was very happy to do so.

With regard to the issue of used cooking oil, I recently answered an Oral Question on that and I agreed to write on a number of points. I am not known for speaking at length, but I spent 23 minutes responding to the debate yesterday despite the pleading looks from my noble friend Lady Verma. Relevant letters are nearly ready despite their complexities. My expectation is that I will send out all the letters strictly relevant to the order by the end of the week at the latest and some may well be sent tomorrow. I accept that the timescale is tight, but I think it is better to agree the Motion now rather than go right up to the wire later. I beg to move.

Motion agreed.

Renewable Transport Fuel Obligations (Amendment) Order 2011

Earl Attlee Excerpts

Monday 5th December 2011 Grand Committee

Moved By

[Earl Attlee]

That the Grand Committee do report to the House that it has considered the Renewable Transport Fuel Obligations (Amendment) Order 2011.

Relevant documents: 33rd Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, 44th Report from the Merits Committee

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the draft Renewable Transport Fuel Obligations (Amendment) Order 2011 will give legal effect to changes to an existing scheme that requires suppliers of fossil fuel for road transport to ensure that a proportion of the fuel that they supply comes from renewable sources. This is the renewable transport fuel obligation, or RTFO. The legislation before us is of key importance in our efforts to tackle climate change and will implement the transport elements of the EU renewable energy directive, or RED.

Biofuels are the only alternative to fossil fuel in transport that presently can be delivered on the scale required to meet our immediate environmental challenges. They will play a key role in allowing us to keep within our forthcoming carbon budgets and to meet our European renewable energy targets. However, biofuels are not the silver bullet that some once believed. There remain legitimate concerns about the sustainability of some biofuels. With this in mind, I make it clear that we are not setting out a new trajectory for increased biofuel targets beyond those already set under the current RTFO. The order is about making biofuels more sustainable; it is not about supplying more biofuel.

Given the environmental concerns and the need to consider how best to deploy biofuels across transport sectors, there is no proposal to increase the obligation levels already set under the 2007 order, which requires the level of biofuel to reach 5 per cent by volume of the total fuel used for road transport in the obligation year that starts in April 2013. The target will remain at these levels for subsequent years. This order would place a duty on the Secretary of State for Transport to keep under review the obligated levels set under the 2007 order. It is our intention to consult in 2012 on possible increases to the percentage of biofuel that will have to be supplied in the period 2014 to 2020.

It may be useful for me to provide a brief overview of the current regulatory framework so that the changes we are considering today can be better understood. Suppliers of fossil fuel for road transport have an obligation to supply a small percentage of biofuel alongside the fossil fuel: currently 4 per cent. Suppliers of biofuel are awarded a certificate for each litre of fuel that they supply. The renewable transport fuel certificates—RTFCs—can be traded on the open market. This means that entities supplying biofuels that do not have an obligation to do so may still benefit from helping obligated suppliers to meet their targets as they can sell their certificates to those suppliers that require them to meet their obligation. The buyout mechanism is in place to provide a safety valve that protects both industry and the consumer from spikes in the cost of supplying biofuel. Presently, industry also reports the performance of its biofuels against voluntary sustainability criteria. However, if we pass this order, the UK will reward only sustainable biofuel. This is the key issue today.

This amendment will introduce the mandatory sustainability criteria set out in the RED. This means that for the first time there will be a legal obligation on industry to supply biofuels that demonstrably reduce carbon emissions and can be shown to have been produced from feedstocks whose cultivation did not threaten areas of high biodiversity or damage carbon stocks. Suppliers must therefore be able to prove that their claims of sustainability are true. These sustainability data must be verified to the internationally recognised limited assurance standard by an independent third party before participants in the scheme receive the renewable transport fuel certificates that are used to demonstrate that their obligation to supply sustainable biofuel has been met. If companies continue to supply biofuels that do not meet these environmental standards, those biofuels will count as fossil fuels for the purposes of the RTFO and as such will serve to increase the supplier’s obligation to supply sustainable biofuel accordingly.

Another important driver behind this amendment is to further encourage biofuels made from the most sustainable feedstocks. Fuel made from wastes and residues will be eligible for double counting, receiving twice as many certificates by volume as biofuels made from other sustainable feedstocks. This double counting would also apply to biofuels made from lignocellulosic material and non-food cellulosic material; that is, woody matter as well as stalks and the like left over from agricultural crops.

We remain concerned that there are significant indirect impacts from some biofuels that are not currently addressed by the renewable energy directive. Earlier this year the UK published research on the scale of these impacts and we have written to the European Commission reiterating our belief that this is a pressing issue that must be addressed robustly at a Europe-wide level. As the directive currently stands, it does not take into account these indirect effects. While the extent of these impacts remains uncertain, there is robust evidence that widespread use of some biofuels can lead to significant indirect greenhouse gas emissions through the process known as indirect land use change, or ILUC.

The Government take the issue of ILUC seriously. Earlier this year the Department for Transport published research on the scale of indirect land use change impacts and we are continuing to lead work on how to tackle these, as well as encouraging the European Commission to address this issue on a Europe-wide scale with a robust solution. My honourable friend Norman Baker, the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport, has written to the European Commission twice, expressing the Government’s concerns regarding ILUC and pressing for robust and proportionate action to be taken to address the associated impacts.

We have also been consulting on guidance that will help suppliers and others with an interest in this industry to understand better how we take technical decisions in accordance with the order and how they are expected to comply with this legislation. This RTFO guidance will update existing guidance on process, carbon and sustainability reporting, verification and process-related issues for fuel suppliers.

I will now briefly summarise other key changes that would be delivered through this order. It would require suppliers to provide additional sustainability information. It would extend the RTFO so that biofuel suppliers, as well as those supplying fossil fuel for road transport, are obliged to register with the RTFO administrator and report on their biofuels. Small suppliers will still be outside the scope of the obligation in the light of the minimum supply threshold of 450,000 litres per annum, which will continue to apply. It would expand the RTFO so that all liquid and gaseous renewable fuels of biological origin that are for use in road vehicles are eligible for RTFCs.

This approach would enable more renewable fuels such as biomethanol, and partially renewable fuels, to be eligible for reward under the RTFO.

In order to allow maximum flexibility for industry while ensuring that the sustainability criteria are met, we are allowing suppliers to carry over RTFCs from one obligation period into the next, where the fuels associated with these certificates would have met the minimum greenhouse gas requirements in both periods.

This order will remove the duty on the RTFO administrator to report annually to Parliament. This is because the administration of the scheme is now carried out by a central government department rather than by a non-departmental public body, as had previously been the case. It is therefore subject to the usual ministerial oversight of departmental business, rendering additional reporting unnecessary. We are also proposing to amend the suite of civil penalties available to ensure compliance in order to reflect the changes made to other aspects of the order.

The changes before the Committee today are intended to ensure that biofuels used on Britain’s roads deliver real carbon savings and can demonstrate their sustainability. Through double counting, they will also encourage industry to seek out ways of delivering the most sustainable fuels. I therefore commend the order to the Committee. I beg to move.

[Lord Teverson]

I am happy to start, my Lords, as this is a very important area. I will start what I am about to say by showing how important it is. If you are a believer that global warming is one of the greatest challenges to this planet and to mankind, then this order is of particular importance. We often forget that transport accounts for 35 per cent of energy usage within the United Kingdom, so in order to meet our renewable energy targets of 15 per cent in 2020, and our decarbonisation targets of 80 per cent for the economy as a whole up to 2050, we obviously have to succeed in this area. If we do not, then we stand no chance of meeting our other targets. We know, however, that this has been one of the most contentious areas.

Sometimes those of us who get involved in debates about wind farms and nuclear energy think that it is one of the areas where there is most division and angst among Members of the House and the public at large. However, this is one of the areas where we are asking what is and what is not a sustainable biofuel, and whether biofuels are good or bad. As we go on, that division—which seems to have got wider—is of great importance.

We therefore have to make sure that we solve issues in this area. The renewable energy directive requires that we reach 10 per cent by 2020, and on this scale we get to 5 per cent by volume—but that is of course only 3.5 per cent by energy content in terms of that target.

I looked at one of the reports of the Committee on Climate Change. It is useful to remind ourselves as background that in terms of decarbonising this sector, as the Minister said, renewable liquid fuels are pretty well the only option in the short term. What are the alternatives? I note that the Committee on Climate Change is looking for 1.7 million electric or hybrid vehicles by 2020, which will be 16 per cent of all purchases of vehicles by that time. Frankly, we will be very lucky if we get anywhere near that figure, and we are not on the trajectory to achieving the target of having almost completely electric vehicles by 2030.

The other alternatives are hydrogen fuel, which seems to be a long way off, or second-generation biofuels. Since I have been involved in this debate, second-generation biofuels—let alone third-generation ones—have been talked about as if they are around the corner, and yet those debates have been going on for three or maybe five years, and they are still not here. What research and development and real impetus—by Europe, through the framework initiatives, and through our own government-sponsored research— is being put into these second-generation biofuels? Until we move on to those, I do not think that this issue is overly solvable.

--- Later in debate ---

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, this has been a useful discussion on a subject that generates a wide variety of views. I will try to address some of the key points that have been raised. The number of noble Lords addressing the Committee clearly shows the importance of this order.

The noble Lord, Lord Teverson, asked me if I would agree that not one litre of biofuel should come from the United States. He tempted me but I remind the noble Lord that of course we have the 35 per cent reduction in greenhouse gas emissions test. Although I cannot meet his aspiration, the effect of the order will be very beneficial. The noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, teased me about whether I would invest my own money in a biofuel plant. The Committee will know that I am a classic impoverished earl and I have no money. However, I am convinced that the order, as amended, will provide a good commercial and environmental incentive.

It is recognised that greater assurance of the sustainability of biofuels will help to address some of the uncertainties in this policy area. This improved auditing will simultaneously address a number of concerns about the potentially negative impact of some biofuels, while providing industry and investors with increased reassurance that the instruments to incentivise sustainable biofuels will be in place for the foreseeable future, providing the certainty needed to plan ahead. In response to the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, we are building on the work of the previous Administration, as I am sure he would accept.

Double rewards for biofuels from wastes and advanced biofuels will replace the 20p duty differential for used cooking oil, or UCO, which will expire at the end of March next year. This will mean that industry has an incentive to explore ways of delivering any of the fuels with the very best sustainability credentials, rather than incentivising it to focus on a single feedstock. This amendment will allow us to meet our EU obligations in this area and is needed to set in law the sustainability criteria required by the renewable energy directive. As an EU obligation, the same criteria will apply in all other European member states.

We recognise that the issue of ILUC is not currently addressed by the RED and are working both within Government and at a European level to ensure that proportionate and robust action is taken to address this. However, I remind noble Lords that this amendment is a continuation of our current trajectory towards increasingly sustainable biofuels. That trajectory was set out following the Gallagher review of biofuels in 2008, which highlighted the potential impact of ILUC and recommended that the rate of increase of the targeted volume of biofuels in place at the time should be reduced. It said that higher targets should only be implemented beyond 2014 if biofuels are shown to be demonstrably sustainable, including avoiding indirect land use change.

I have a number of points to cover in answer to noble Lords. Some touched on fuels other than biofuels; for example, hydrogen and the use of electricity. The Committee will forgive me if I just cover biofuels. A recurring question from many noble Lords was how industry will prove its fuels meet the new criteria. The answer is that independent verifiers will check the claims made by suppliers that recognised voluntary schemes that certify fuels as RED-compliant are in place. Suppliers will need to have the information that they supply to the scheme's administrator independently verified to the internationally recognised standard known as limited assurance. It is expected that many will provide evidence through certification from one of a number of voluntary schemes set up by private organisations and recognised by the European Commission. Verification has taken place since the RTFO was launched in 2008. The schemes involve companies such as Ernst & Young and PricewaterhouseCoopers.

[Viscount Eccles]

Does my noble friend have any information about the cost of verification? It must be enormous if it is being done properly.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I would not imagine that it impacts greatly on pump prices. I will see if inspiration comes to me in due course. However, the cost is in the impact assessment.

The noble Lord, Lord Palmer, asked how we could support UK production. The RTFO seeks to increase biofuel use. We want sustainable biofuels. The RTFO allows sustainable biofuels to count. We cannot exclude biofuels because they come from outside the UK. If we did, we would face competition issues from the WTO and no doubt from the European Commission as well. Also, such anti-competitive behaviour would be against the interests of UK consumers. The key is sustainable feedstock.

[Lord Berkeley]

If we have one of the “big four” accounting firms doing the verification and the material is coming from South America or the Far East, will they go there to check it or will they rely on local certification?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, it is up to the supplier to convince the authorities that their fuel is sustainable.

Many noble Lords asked about advanced biofuels. A number of commercial activities are developing advanced biofuels. BP is involved in a joint venture to develop biobutanol. Double counting of waste-derived biofuels and advanced biofuels will increase the financial incentive to invest in advanced biofuels.

My noble friend Lord Eccles asked number of questions. Many of them are key to the debate, so I will go through them and I hope that the answers will cover many other noble Lords’ concerns. He asked about UK production. The UK is currently the largest single supplier to our market. Volumes from the UK have increased over the years. The market share is currently around 23 per cent. The detail is on the department’s website. The noble Viscount asked whether our 10 per cent was not all tallow, et cetera. Tallow and used cooking oil account for a significant proportion of UK feedstocks. Some fuel comes from agricultural feedstocks. Again, the detail is on the website. He asked what happens to our oilseed rape production. We do not have the figures to hand. The statistical data are on our website.

[Viscount Eccles]

How will my noble friend deal with the fact that the website is madly out of date?

--- Later in debate ---

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I will have to write to the noble Viscount on that point. I confess to my shame that I have not personally studied the website.

The noble Viscount suggested that sustainability was immeasurable. Some sustainability is relatively easy to track. That is what we are mandating today. The issue of ILUC is unresolved and we are pushing to have it addressed.

[Viscount Eccles]

Perhaps I might have one more go. One of the problems is primary forest. That is forest or other wooded land of native species where at any point in time, in or after January 2008, there has been no clearly visible indication of human activity, and where the ecological processes have not been significantly disturbed. Is my noble friend suggesting that there is anywhere, in any forest, where nobody has ever been?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the noble Viscount is asking me searching questions of great detail, and I will have to write to him.

I am just going through the questions asked by the noble Viscount. He says that we do not know where 16 per cent comes from. These are the latest published statistics for April 2010 to April 2011. He asked how we can trace biofuels and ensure that they are sustainable. Currently the RTFO has voluntary reporting in place. This reporting has enabled many suppliers to demonstrate that they can trace the production of biofuels, and that they are sustainable. This verification work has been taking place since the RTFO was introduced in 2008. It is carried out by independent, reputable companies, as I have previously mentioned.

The noble Viscount, Lord Eccles, and the noble Lord, Lord Reay, asked why the Government are supporting biofuels when doing so can push food prices up. The analysis by Her Majesty’s Government concludes that biofuels were not a particularly significant driver of the 2008 food price spike, with other factors such as the price of oil and adverse weather conditions being greater contributors. However, some biofuels will put upward pressure on prices for those agricultural commodities used in biofuel production.

My noble friend Viscount Eccles also asked what the Government are doing now to ensure that the promotion of biofuels does not result in land grabs in developing countries. The Government agree that biofuel production must be socially and environmentally sustainable and should not adversely impact on food prices and availability or on local people’s access to land and other natural resources in developing countries. The scale and complexity of this issue mean that it is most effectively addressed at the EU level. He also asked about the impact of biofuels on food availability. Under the RED, the European Commission must monitor and report every two years on the impact of biofuel policy and the increased demand for biofuel on social sustainability. This will include reporting on the availability of foodstuffs at affordable prices, particularly for people living in developing countries.

Many noble Lords have asked why there is no target after 2014. We need to await the conclusions of a number of pieces of work before we can set biofuel targets beyond 2014. The research we are waiting for is the report of the Committee on Climate Change on renewable energy, and the Government’s bioenergy review. We expect to consult on targets for 2014 to 2020 next year. There have been shifts in biofuel policy in the past. We need to ensure that policy decisions going forward are robust and stable. This is an important point for industry, as many noble Lords have pointed out during our debate.

[Baroness Worthington]

My Lords, the point I was trying to make was that this is a percentage-based target that actually translates into volumes of litres of product. The modelling for the total volume of litres of petrol to be sold suggests that that there could be a declining volume of renewable fuels. I want the Government to acknowledge that we might not be maintaining the volumes of sales but might actually be decreasing them if we stay as we are. The important factor is that if you write a target as a percentage, you have got to think about the litres of product to enable the industry to plan. Perhaps I could have an answer on that.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I confess that I do not fully understand the point made by the noble Baroness, but I will undertake to discuss it with my honourable friend Mr Norman Baker, the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport.

Many noble Lords are concerned about ethanol from the United States, and what support exists for British ethanol producers. UK farmers and biofuel producers have historically been able to demonstrate strong sustainability performance for their products, which should put them in good stead once the mandatory sustainability criteria of the RED come into effect. This should help their competitiveness. Ethanol producers in the UK have also had concerns that US imports are exploiting a tariff loophole. A European Commission draft regulation addressing the loophole was considered and agreed by the EU Customs Code Committee on 12 October, and should be published soon. The mandatory sustainability criteria will allow only sustainable biofuels to be financially rewarded in the UK.

The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, asked about oil sands. The fuel quality directive seeks to reduce the life cycle of greenhouse gas emissions of fuels used in land-based transport. We want a methodology that is able to account for the greenhouse gas emissions of all crudes, including oil sands and oil shale, and which is based on robust and objective criteria. The evidence is that fuel derived from oil sands has a high intensity of greenhouse gas emissions. However, the same is true of a number of other crude sources, such as Nigerian and Angolan crude, with their associated flaring, and Venezuelan heavy crude oil.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Bradshaw]

I believed that the 20p incentive was paid to the people who refine used cooking oil. Now the noble Earl is saying it is available to a wider group of people. It has probably got through to him that the Committee is not overjoyed about this piece of legislation. Will he go back, check this and consider whether producers should be guaranteed to get at least 20 pence? If they get more, that can be offset, but they want a guaranteed floor price.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I will write in detail to the noble Lord on the issue of used cooking oil and see if I can draft a letter that will meet his concerns. At the moment I am convinced that this is a sensible policy.

[Lord Palmer]

My Lords, the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, emphasises what a complex issue this is, because it goes back to the Treasury. When the noble Earl writes to the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, perhaps he could kindly copy us all in so we can be kept abreast of the situation.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, it is standard procedure to write to all noble Lords who have taken part in any of these debates.

The noble Lord, Lord Reay, asked me several interesting questions. First, he asked if there were any suggestions that adding biofuel to fossil fuel reduces fuel efficiency. Yes, biofuel is less energy-dense but we are blending only low volumes. He asked about the proportion of biofuels supplied today under the RTFO that comes from crops. The latest published figures indicate that two-thirds comes from crops. He also asked about the cost to the motorist to date, which has been between £300 million and £400 million per year at current market prices. He asked whether, after consulting on a number of options, we are keeping the buyout mechanism. The answer is yes. For those who are unfamiliar with the system, the buyout mechanism is in place to provide a safety valve that will protect both industry and the consumer from spikes in the cost of supplying biofuel. It will allow obligated suppliers to buy up part or all of their obligation, rather than meeting it by redeeming the RTFCs that are issued to those supplying sustainable biofuels. The cost of buying out is 30p per litre of fuel that the supplier would otherwise have been obligated to supply.

The noble Lord also asked about the efficiency and effectiveness of biofuels, and whether there were any problems. He will recall that I recently answered an Oral Question in the Chamber about ethanol and petrol, which can cause some problems. However, they are not insurmountable.

The noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, asked me what I would say in response to industry concerns that there has been inadequate time to prepare for this and that consultation on the RTFO guidance has been very brief. We have no intention of delaying transposition and implementation. The renewable energy directive was published in 2009 and set mandatory sustainability criteria for biofuels. The implementation of the criteria should not come as a surprise to industry. Those companies that have taken the opportunity to report on a voluntary basis and to establish a sustainable biofuel supply chain will be well placed to meet the requirements of an amended RTFO.

[Lord Berkeley]

Before the noble Earl winds up, perhaps I could try a variation on the question that the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, posed. The Minister said that processing and selling biofuels was a good investment. He then said that there were no targets for the volume or the price—the sale price or the costs—beyond 2014. Would he recommend anybody to invest in this, or would he rely on the advice of the verification schemes of the big four, who of course will not have a conflict of interest?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, there is a target of 5 per cent in 2014 and each year thereafter. I remind the noble Lord that we will be consulting on the future after 2014.

This is the right time for this order. We did not allow ourselves to be rushed, as we wished to ensure that the legislation was built on robust evidence. The Committee will be aware that there were a number of policy shifts relating to biofuels in the past. We wanted to be clear that this order was based on clear facts and sound science.

We have also taken steps, both with the order and through earlier work, to ensure that industry has been given adequate time and information to prepare for the change. The RED was published in 2009 and there have been regular meetings since then between departmental and industry representatives to discuss the sustainability criteria. The RTFO has been in place since 2008, and those companies that have taken the opportunity to report on a voluntary basis and to establish sustainable biofuel supply chains will be well placed to meet the requirements of an amended RTFO.

I have tried to answer as many questions as possible. I will write to noble Lords on any major points that I have not addressed, and I have already undertaken to discuss one matter with a ministerial colleague. I hope that I have addressed the key issues raised today and that the Committee will agree that the order is the best way to proceed with our UK biofuel policy.

Motion agreed.

Protection of Freedoms Bill

Earl Attlee Excerpts

Tuesday 29th November 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Rosser]

My Lords, our Amendment 43 in this group seeks to ban the use of fixed barriers by private parking operators unless they comply with new statutory rules on maximum parking charges and signage. The need for this amendment arises from the Government’s decision on Report in the Commons to introduce new subsection (3) into Clause 54, as has already been referred to, as a clarification in order to maintain the lawful use of fixed barriers in private car parks. However, the effect of that subsection appears to be also to reinstate mechanisms by which less principled operators will effectively be able to immobilise vehicles and prevent drivers from leaving without paying excessive or erroneous parking charges.

As Diana Johnson MP said during the debate in the other place,

“I am even more concerned that companies that wish to get round the law, operate in an intimidating way and issue excessive parking tickets will see this as an opportunity to go ahead. Under clause 54(3) putting down a barrier in effect immobilises a vehicle”.—[Official Report, Commons, 10/10/11; col. 139.]

Subsection (3) risks creating a loophole that will see the return of the very same regime of rogue operators that the Bill is trying to eradicate. Our amendment seeks to ensure that only reputable operators are allowed to use the added measure of fixed barriers in order to ensure the on-the-spot payment of tickets. If not, they would have to pursue vehicle keepers through the DVLA as provided for by Schedule 4.

Reference has already been made to Schedule 4. Under it, landowners—that is, in this context, parking providers—may pursue vehicle keepers for unpaid parking charges through the DVLA, subject to certain conditions. Concerns have been expressed about that arrangement. Consumer groups, Citizens Advice and trading standards have pointed out that rogue ticketers, whose numbers may increase following any ban on clamping, will be able to access vehicle keepers’ highly sensitive information through the DVLA and pursue them for excessive or unfairly levied charges.

The present position is that existing regulations enable only those who provide parking in accordance with industry best practice to access details of vehicle keepers from the DVLA. Industry best practice is defined in the regulations as membership of an accredited trade association, of which the British Parking Association’s approved operator scheme is currently the only one. However, the concerns that have been expressed relate to the fact that adherence to best practice is equated with membership of the BPA. The BPA is a trade association and is not resourced or intended to enforce compliance. In addition, the BPA approved operator scheme is not independent since it is decided on by the membership—namely, the parking providers—and therefore does not guarantee fairness to consumers.

In her amendments, my noble friend Lady Hayter of Kentish Town has raised an important issue, which was referred to at Second Reading when reference was made to what would happen in the event of a total ban on clamping if people found their driveways being used if they happened, as has been said today, to live near a railway station, a football stadium or perhaps some other major leisure centre, where this is a hazard that at least some of them seem to face. It is not clear, if there is to be a complete ban on clamping, exactly what their redress would be. There certainly would not seem to be much point in calling the police, since even if they felt moved to act in relation to a car on someone’s driveway, it is highly unlikely that they would regard the issue as a particular priority. I hope that the Minister will not dismiss my noble friend’s amendments but will seek to address an answer to the issues and concerns that she has raised.

We have also heard concerns raised about the impact on disabled drivers. Does the minister believe that the Government’s proposals have an impact on disabled drivers? In written evidence to the Public Bill Committee, the British Parking Association said that it was particularly concerned that the equality impact assessment assumes that there will be no impact. We have certainly heard during today’s debate of circumstances that will have an adverse impact and which appear to arise directly from the provisions in the Government’s Bill. I hope that the Minister will give a straight answer on those concerns.

We would support the establishment of an independent appeals process, but it must apply across the whole sector, not just in relation to the BPA. I assume that the Minister would have no objections to that, but no doubt he will be stating his position shortly.

I conclude by saying that in this very interesting debate a significant number of concerns have been raised and there is a degree of consensus, though not complete, from all sides of the House about the concerns that need to be addressed. Because I accept that there are no easy answers, I invite the Minister to consider whether he might convene discussions outside the Chamber with the interested parties—those who have contributed to the debate today—to talk about those concerns and see if any consensus can be reached on progress that might be made in addressing them.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, as we have heard from the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, her Amendment 42 seeks to introduce a number of exemptions to the ban on vehicle immobilisation and towing. The amendment would allow wheel clamping and towing to continue on private land where the vehicle was unregistered in the United Kingdom, causing an obstruction or parked in a residential estate where parking was permitted only for residents or their guests, or the vehicle was adapted for towing—in other words, it was a trailer or a caravan. I understand why she and others seek these amendments, but I personally have received complaints about the activities of rogue clamping companies.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Lucas]

My Lords, I am very grateful to my noble friend for that lengthy and interesting explanation. I shall follow his example and read it carefully in Hansard. I would certainly like to be included in any delegation which the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, may choose to lead to the ministry. It seems to me that a number of points still require to be cleared up.

As regards this business of having a right to move a car that is causing an obstruction, that is pretty useless if you are immediately done for scratching its paintwork. How are you going to prove that you have done no damage? You will have to start off with a complete photographic survey. Then you will presumably have to pay a couple of hundred quid for a velvet-lined lorry to lift the thing up. The kit that is needed to move a car without damaging it is not the sort of kit that most people have. It does not seem to be a piece of law that will ever be beneficial to someone who has had his driveway blocked, to a hospital where people cannot gain access to where the ambulances come in, or wherever else it might be. They will not have the kit to take effective action because there will be too few occasions when this happens and there will be no private operators to respond.

I remain concerned about proposed subsection (3) and I do not think that its implications have been thought through. All you need is a chain on the ground attached to a post, and you could come along, stretch it out across the gateway to the park and padlock the other end. It is enough to immobilise a car. Or you could set out posts around the park and loop the chain around them. As the provision is currently phrased, it is an invitation to bad behaviour, although I understand why it is there and I do not want to inconvenience the ordinary municipal car park that has an up-and-down barrier, which is a sensible arrangement. However, we have to have a more rogue-proof provision. I look forward very much to the meeting.

[Earl Attlee]

Perhaps I may quickly respond to my noble friend. As regards large establishments such as hospitals, I imagine that they would use an accredited car park operator. As to the example of a discrete chain that you could suddenly pull up after the motorist has left, I remind my noble friend that the landholder would have to have good signage, otherwise he could fall foul of the offence of immobilising the vehicle.

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town]

My Lords, I thank the noble Earl for his response, and I thank the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, the noble Baronesses, Lady Grey-Thompson and Lady Randerson, and the noble Lords, Lord Rosser, Lord Lucas and Lord Newton, for their contributions.

I am immensely disappointed because the response did not answer what for me are the two major issues—residential parking and disabled parking. The Minister has not responded at all on those matters. When talking to one of my colleagues from Northern Ireland, they said simply that it is illegal to park in a disabled space in Northern Ireland, and that the police enforce that law. I was also told what happened to other cars that park in disabled spaces—they were immobilised, albeit with a knife to the wheel, rather than by a wheel clamp. Nothing in the Bill will make it easier—in fact, it will be harder—to preserve the right of disabled people to park in disabled bays.

However, the real issue is that my amendments are not about car parks. There was the idea of having lighting, signage and so on, but I am talking about people’s own private car-parking spaces at a block of flats with perhaps five or 10 parking areas for those five or 10 flat owners. They do not want to put up CCTV, lights or signage. It is their private parking. That is the driver behind this issue, and I am afraid that none of the responses addresses such people’s needs. They do not want to issue tickets and go to the DVLA to find out who a car belongs to. They want to deter drivers from parking where they should not—whether that space is for a disabled vehicle or their own.

[Earl Attlee]

The noble Baroness gave an example of just a few parking slots in a housing estate, but does she agree that commonly available are small barriers or posts that you can put in place and would be very effective in stopping other motorists from effectively stealing the landholder’s parking slot?

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town]

I look forward to the Minister giving money to all those people to pay for them. They are actually rather expensive. Perhaps some of the rogues who do asphalting at the front of houses could install those posts at the same time. I do not think that the noble Earl heard my example of Mr and Mrs Hubbard, who are disabled. Where are they going to get the money to put up an extra block to stop people parking in front of their sheltered accommodation? Having to do that would be extraordinary.

I am very concerned about the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, about the greater use of the DVLA database. There are great dangers in expecting more people to have to chase the owner, rather than, having clamped the car, getting people to come round and sort the situation out there and then. I thought that we wanted there to be less, rather than more, access to private data. That is also the case regarding CCTV. I had thought that part of the Bill provided for less CCTV. I happen to be in favour of CCTV—many women are—but the whole thrust of the Bill is for less of it. Now little blocks of flats with five residents are meant to put CCTV outside so that they can see who has been parking in the middle of the night. That is difficult to understand.

On the issues raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, I understand that we take a different position on clamping, but the issues that I am raising are exactly the same: what do you do about a block of flats that is next to a charging car park—although it could be anywhere—when ordinary residents cannot get into their garage or to their front door?

If they are disabled, where they park, there may be a ramp; if they have to park somewhere else, there may be steps, so they cannot go there. There seems to be no consideration of the small residential group. The idea of moving the car was raised earlier. You have to break into it to move it, so presumably that will damage the car straightaway. If you have a driving licence only for a motorbike and not for a car, you might not be licensed to move it at all. I find the idea of breaking into someone's car to move it as hard to understand as the answer.

The noble Earl, Lord Lytton, talked about serial offenders; this is a major problem. We are talking not about people who just overstay—they meant to move it but did not come back—but serial offenders who go into the car parking area, which is not a car park and where they should never have gone anyway, and leave the car there. I did not raise the issue of community facilities, such as churches, where it may be very difficult if you are going to a funeral or wedding and suddenly cannot drive in there. That was not the thrust of my amendments at all; I am interested in residential areas. Nevertheless, those points have not been answered.

The major points that I am interested in, particularly the blue badge system and disabled car parking areas, wherever they may be, or small residential areas, have not been answered. Nevertheless, I am grateful for the opportunity to discuss this further and take up that offer. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Rosser]

My Lords, we have Amendment 53 in this group. I shall attempt to be reasonably brief as many of the points were made in the previous debate. However, to recap, it is under Schedule 4 that landowners—that is, parking providers—may pursue vehicle keepers for unpaid parking charges through the DVLA, subject to certain conditions. As I said earlier, some concerns have been expressed about this arrangement, not least by consumers’ groups and Citizens Advice. I think that the Minister will find, for instance, that Citizens Advice Scotland has some examples of the adverse impact of the scheme as it applies there and it can give information on that.

The question of access to information is potentially of some concern. In evidence to the House of Commons Transport Committee last week, the Corporate Affairs Director of the DVLA said that if there were an allegation, for example, about damage or harm done through the use of a vehicle, the person alleging the harm would be given details of the keeper of the vehicle from whom they could make inquiries as to who was the operator of the vehicle at the time the alleged harm was done. When asked to whom this information would be given, the DVLA representative said that if they were in the private parking field, the companies would have to be members of the accredited trade association—that is, the British Parking Association’s approved operator scheme, which is the only approved operator scheme in the parking sector.

When it was then suggested that as long as an organisation joined the BPA, the DVLA would hand over information to it about the keeper of a vehicle, the DVLA said that it would, provided that it was convinced by the details of the request and the organisation was known to be a member of the approved operator scheme. However, as the Minister will know, recent media stories have claimed that the personal details of more than a million motorists were sold to private clamping companies by the DVLA in 2010, which suggests that maybe the safeguards against giving information to organisations or representatives of organisations who should not be entitled to know details of the keeper of a vehicle are not as strong as they should be.

Our amendment seeks to address the issue by requiring private parking providers to demonstrate adherence with industry best practice—that relates to all private parking providers—on issues such as signage display or maximum penalties to gain details of the vehicle keeper from the DVLA. The amendment also places a burden of responsibility on the DVLA to ensure that a keeper’s personal information is provided only to reputable parking providers by establishing a code of conduct on fair practice, including appropriate penalty charges and requirements for the display of notices in respect of parking of vehicles on the relevant land. I hope that the Minister will give careful consideration to the amendment which seeks to ensure that there is a code of practice and that it is an independent code of conduct that is operated and run not only in the interests of the parking providers but in the interests of those who use the parking facilities.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, all the amendments in this group seek to amend in their various ways the provisions on keeper liability in Schedule 4 to the Bill. Amendments 44 and 54, in the name of my noble friend Lord Lucas, set out a further set of conditions that the creditor must comply with to claim unpaid parking charges from the keeper of a vehicle. Unless the Committee appears to desire it, I do not propose to weary it by going through each one in detail, much as I would enjoy doing so.

Although the amendments are clearly well intentioned and designed to offer further safeguards to the motorist, I would hope to persuade my noble friend that they are in the most part either unnecessary or inappropriate. I say that because the amendments do not appear appropriate for trespass situations which the Bill also covers, and in relation to private car parks. The issues that the amendments address can be dealt with either through self-regulation within the industry, or they will be matters that may be considered by the independent appeals body that will be established before the provisions come into effect.

First and foremost, we do not consider that it is appropriate to add further conditions over and above those contained in the schedule for landowners who wish to take action against those who trespass on their property. In relation to non-trespass situations—private car parks—a number of the suggested conditions will be subject to the individual facts of a given case and would anyway be dealt with by the disputes arrangements, whether that was an internal scheme or through the independent appeals body. We have already made it clear that any notice to the driver or keeper of the vehicle intending to recover unpaid parking charges must set out what the appeals arrangements are. As such, we believe that the conditions that we have set out in the schedule adequately cover what would be expected of the creditor in seeking to recover unpaid parking charges. It will be more appropriate for the independent appeals body to hear disputes and review the evidence presented by either party rather than seeking to specify these matters in legislation beforehand.

In addition, consumer protection legislation already applies to parking contracts and there is the added safeguard that only those parking providers who are members of an accredited trade association will have access to DVLA vehicle keeper data and can therefore pursue keeper liability as part of their general enforcement arrangements. In response to the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, who asked about the 1 million occasions when the DVLA data were accessed, an accredited trade association can get DVLA data. A high figure is representative of the high number of on-road offences in which keeper details were requested. It also covers private policing to, for example, supermarkets. The Government have made it clear to the parking industry that members of such accredited trade associations—in this case the British Parking Association’s Approved Operator Scheme—will need to sign up to a code of practice that will include an agreement to have disputes and complaints dealt with via an independent appeals body.

In a similar vein, the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, seeks further regulation in the form of a statutory code of conduct covering penalty charges and signage. Any creditor would have to demonstrate that they had complied with the code before being able to obtain keeper details from the DVLA. Again, this is an overregulatory approach that would apply to all private land, including to trespass situations. It is both inappropriate and unnecessary. As I mentioned, members of the British Parking Association's approved operator scheme already operate under a code of practice that provides guidance on both penalty charges and signage. The Bill also contains reserve powers to prescribe signage if this proves necessary.

The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, touched on Scotland and the experience of Citizens Advice. I will follow it up and if the noble Lord could assist me with further details, it would be much appreciated.

The purpose of Schedule 4 is simply to strengthen the arrangements for the enforcement of unpaid parking charges as an alternative to wheel clamping once the ban has come into force. Schedule 4 covers all land not subject to statutory control, from private car parks to the front driveways of private properties. It would be neither sensible nor appropriate in these circumstances to introduce wide-ranging regulation that would seriously impinge on the ability of smaller landowners to control parking on their land. The self-regulatory approach for larger operators as a condition of membership of a government-accredited trade association is the right approach for larger private car park operators and their agents.

I turn to the government amendments. As I indicated, we will not commence the keeper liability provisions in Schedule 4 until an independent appeals body is in place. Government Amendments 48, 50 and 52 reinforce this point. They clarify the conditions that must be met when issuing a ticket to a driver or vehicle keeper for an unpaid parking charge by requiring that the ticket must include details both of any arrangements offered internally by the company, and any arrangements available by independent adjudication or arbitration. This reinforces and strengthens the Government's commitment that Schedule 4 will not commence until an independent appeals service is in place.

I will deal briefly with government Amendments 56 and 57. They make a small change to Schedule 4 following representations from the British Vehicle Rental and Leasing Association. I declare a small interest as I attended its 2005 annual dinner and found myself sitting next to a lady who appeared to be the girl of my dreams. I am pleased to say that she is now the Countess Attlee. The schedule excludes vehicle hire firms from keeper liability provisions provided certain conditions are fulfilled when vehicles are hired out. The association pointed out that the definition of a hire agreement that refers to hire periods not exceeding six months does not reflect modern vehicle rental arrangements, in which longer periods of hire are commonplace. We accepted this point and amended the definition of a hire agreement so that it covers hire periods of any duration.

In summing up, I assure your Lordships and the Committee that the Government are fully committed to monitoring the effect of the ban on wheel clamping and the associated keeper liability provisions in Schedule 4. If there is evidence that we need to take further measures when the new arrangements are in place, we will of course consider this. We do not believe that there will be any need, but if evidence shows that problems exist, we will act. However, there have been no problems of note with rogue ticketing in Scotland, where wheel clamping has been banned since 1992. Given this assurance, I hope that my noble friend Lord Lucas will withdraw his amendment and that he and the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, will support the government amendments.

Airports: Heathrow

Earl Attlee Excerpts

Tuesday 15th November 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Glentoran]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government, in the light of the possible sale of British Midland International, what they are doing to protect Heathrow landing slots for flights to and from Northern Ireland.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the allocation of take-off and landing slots at Heathrow is governed by EU law. We recognise the economic importance of air services from the devolved Administrations to Heathrow. However, airlines face competitive pressure to use their slots for the most commercially viable routes. Ultimately, decisions about which air services operate between UK airports are commercial ones for airlines to determine.

[Lord Glentoran]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his reply. The background to this Question is that BMI is being sold. It is vital for the Northern Ireland economy to have a regular professional service from Heathrow to Belfast. Does not the Minister agree that the fortunes of a part of the United Kingdom should not be in the hands of an airline or its executives? What will Her Majesty’s Government do to ensure that Northern Ireland is not deprived of Heathrow landing slots, which are vital for badly needed inward investment into the Province?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the proposals for the sale of BMI are a commercial matter for its owner, Lufthansa. There is no indication that there will be any changes to the current level of BMI services from Belfast City Airport to London Heathrow. A number of other airlines also operate services between Northern Ireland’s airports and London airports. Existing services also operate from Belfast International Airport to hub airports in northern Europe.

[Lord Kilclooney]

My Lords, does the Minister recall that there used to be two airlines flying from Belfast to Heathrow—British Airways and British Midland? However, British Airways withdrew that service and allocated the slots elsewhere. If it now takes over British Midland, will the Government do nothing to stop British Airways withdrawing those slots from the Belfast flight?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, at the moment we do not see a problem. However, it would be open to the Northern Ireland Assembly to apply to the Secretary of State for Transport to impose a public service obligation on an air route from Northern Ireland to London, should the Assembly feel that a case can be made which satisfies the EU regulations on PSOs. If approved, this would permit slots to be ring-fenced at a London airport. However, there is no other mechanism for the Government to intervene in the allocation of slots at Heathrow or other London airports. We do not see the need at the moment to impose a public service obligation.

[Lord Kinnock]

Does the Minister recognise that it is important to sustain the Heathrow slots for Northern Ireland simply because Heathrow is the most substantial hub? In the case of sustaining the economic interests of Northern Ireland, it is important that there is an absolutely dependable service from that hub into the Province. That is in the interests of the whole of the United Kingdom. Therefore, will the Minister maximise the use of public service obligations to ensure that when Lufthansa disposes of British Midland the slots will not disappear into a black hole as well?

--- Later in debate ---

[Earl Attlee]

The noble Lord is quite right in his initial analysis, with which I agree. However, at the moment we do not see a problem, and for that reason we would be unable to impose a public service obligation.

[Lord Alderdice]

My Lords, my noble friend may not see a problem, but will he take it from me that those of us from Northern Ireland who are users of the service do share the anxieties raised by the noble Lord about British Airways’ previous treatment of Northern Ireland? This is not just a question of the economy of a company but the economy of a part of the United Kingdom. Having slots to other airports is simply not an adequate replacement. Economy flexible flights with British Midland now cost well in excess of £500 return. It is clear that it is making a profit. Therefore, it does not seem reasonable to assume other than that the Government should take some responsibility and assist the Northern Ireland Assembly rather than simply leave this matter to the Assembly to deal with on its own.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I hear what my noble friend says. There is a further difficulty with the public service obligation, which is that one can be imposed only if there is a difficulty with services to London as a whole, as a region. If there is a problem with services to London as a hub airport, that would not justify imposing a public service obligation, so at the moment it is difficult to have the effect that the noble Lord seeks.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, the House should have taken solace from the fact that the Minister has added to his very negative response in his first Answer by indicating that the Government can act if it proves to be necessary. Will he recognise that of course the interests of Northern Ireland are very much involved in this issue, but that it is not just Northern Ireland and Belfast? Edinburgh, too, has its anxieties about this situation. Is he aware that Willie Walsh, the egregious head of IAG, in welcoming the potential opportunities from this purchase, stated that in fact the great business opportunities, of course, lay with using these slots for long-haul aircraft, not for serving parts of the United Kingdom?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I can definitely feel the heat from your Lordships. The sale of these slots to BA will increase the share of BA’s parent, IAG, of all Heathrow airport slots from 44 per cent to around 53 per cent, although IAG points out that even after the acquisition of BMI’s slots, its percentage of Heathrow slots would still be smaller than Lufthansa’s 60 per cent slot holding at Frankfurt.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

Will my noble friend give an undertaking to look at this issue more carefully? The noble Lord is perfectly correct that this is an issue not just for Northern Ireland but for Scotland, where the flights from Glasgow and Edinburgh have been greatly reduced, the fares are very substantial and it is undoubtedly the case that British Airways would use these slots for more lucrative transatlantic flights. It is no good looking at London as a whole. The point is that Heathrow is the hub from which it is possible to do business internationally.

--- Later in debate ---

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, commercial aviation is a global business. This is reflected in the fact that airport slots in EC countries are managed within regulations that follow the worldwide slot guidelines determined by IATA. The EU slot regulations seek to ensure that non-discriminatory and transparent procedures for slot allocation exist across member states.