Government: Cars

Earl Attlee Excerpts

Thursday 25th October 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hoyle]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government why the Government Car and Despatch Agency car allocated to the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills was not manufactured in the United Kingdom.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the main car allocated to the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills has recently been replaced with one manufactured in the UK. Since 17 September 2012, the Japanese-produced Toyota Prius was changed for a Toyota Avensis manufactured at the Burnaston plant in Derbyshire.

[Lord Hoyle]

I welcome that news because—and I think the Minister will agree—the department should act as a shop window for our highly successful British motor industry. I believe that the news will be welcomed all around this House.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his comments. The government ministerial car fleet is about 50% British and 50% foreign. However, I will add a note of caution, because the supply chain for the motor industry is international now. For instance, the BMW Hams Hall engine plant produced 433,000 engines for BMW plants around the world.

[Lord Brabazon of Tara]

My Lords, Toyota is a leading manufacturer in this country and a great asset to British manufacturing. It makes a great many cars here and, better still, exports a great many of them. Does it really matter if the particular model concerned is not made here, when Toyota contributes so much to this country?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, my noble friend makes an extremely good point.

[Lord West of Spithead]

My Lords, carrying this over to other areas of manufacturing, does the Minister agree that if we do not buy something in this country, other people will not buy it? This is particularly pertinent to defence contracts. In the White Paper, we said we would try to sell lots of things abroad; but no one will buy stuff if you do not buy it yourself. It is rather important that we buy things that we make here.

[Earl Attlee]

The noble Lord is absolutely brilliant at asking questions that are wide of the Question on the Order Paper.

[Lord Wright of Richmond]

My Lords, is the Minister aware that, when I was in the Diplomatic Service, there was a requirement that ambassadors and heads of mission abroad should use British cars? I had great difficulty in getting a definition out of the Department of Trade and Industry as to exactly what a British car was.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the reason for that was in one of the very first answers I gave—that the motor industry supply chain is very much international. Another point to remember about government procurement is that we are bound by the European procurement rules, which restrict our course of action. However, we are 50:50 British and foreign in the fleet.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, an undoubtedly British car is the London taxi, which is symbolic of everything London stands for in terms of transport. The company Manganese Bronze is in very serious trouble, to the extent that 400 taxis have been withdrawn because of steering difficulties and the firm is not able to manufacture any others. This is extremely serious as far as the London taxi service is concerned, which is of course valued by very large numbers of people. Has the department begun thinking about the answers to those problems?

--- Later in debate ---

[Earl Attlee]

The noble Lord is even more ingenious than the noble Lord, Lord West. He knows perfectly well that the specifications for London taxis, which are very peculiar, are determined by the mayor’s office.

[Lord Anderson of Swansea]

My Lords, the change is welcome, but would the Minister speculate on what would be the response in France, for example, which is subject to the same EU rules, if government entities were not to buy vehicles wholly manufactured in France?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the important thing is that we adhere to the rules.

[Lord Addington]

My Lords, is it not a point of pride that this Government are using far fewer cars and that our Ministers are now travelling on public transport, and thus might be in a better position to make decisions about the future of that transport?

[Earl Attlee]

My noble friend makes an important point. I do not even use public transport to get to the Department of Transport. I walk; it takes me 10 minutes exactly. The important thing is that we have reduced the size of the ministerial car fleet from about 200 to 92.

[Lord Bates]

Will not my noble friend consider increasing the number of cars available to the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, so that it can travel widely communicating the news that we have had the fastest growth in GDP, by 1%, over the past quarter and that employment is at a record level in this country?

[Earl Attlee]

My noble friend is ingenious as well. Government cars are issued to Ministers when they are needed.

[Viscount Simon]

My Lords, following the question from my noble friend Lord Davies of Oldham, and, again, I fear, being slightly wide of the Question on the Order Paper, is the noble Earl aware that the company that manufactures black cabs has ceased trading and that the companies that will replace them are, I believe, based in Germany?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I am aware of the difficulties of Manganese Bronze and the cabs, but that is of course a little wide of the Question on the Order Paper.

Disabled People: Blue Badge Scheme

Earl Attlee Excerpts

Thursday 25th October 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Harrison]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what are the results of the consultation on the workings of the blue badge scheme for the disabled.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the consultation on the personal independence payment and eligibility for a blue badge closed just three weeks ago. The responses are currently being read and analysed. This is an important decision to make and Ministers will take the time needed to ensure that all the relevant issues are taken into consideration. The Government will announce their decision shortly and will publish a summary of the responses.

[Lord Harrison]

My Lords, given that general practitioners know best the mobility and medical capabilities of current blue badge holders, was it not a bureaucratic and costly folly to vest within overpressed and understaffed local authorities the sensitive task of assessing eligibility for a blue badge, especially when that task was so often assigned to box-ticking junior staff with absolutely no medical knowledge? When will this Government respond to this semi-detached Prime Minister and do something about those who deserve blue badges getting them?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the only thing I agree with the noble Lord on is his point about box-ticking. Applicants’ GPs act as patients’ advocates and are not always best placed to assess mobility or to advise on badge eligibility. In 2008, the Transport Select Committee reported that using an applicant’s own GP to assess eligibility,

“is likely to produce a bias in favour of approving the application”.

[Lord Cormack]

My Lords, surely the GP is best placed to make that judgment?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, we think it is better to have an independent assessment.

[Lord Reid of Cardowan]

My Lords, why are GPs considered to be qualified to decide on just about everything else on commissioning but not on this?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the policy is to have independent assessment to avoid putting the GP in an invidious position.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan]

Is it the case that the ministry took the view that it could not rely upon the integrity and the professional competence of the practitioner, and was there any evidence to support that prejudice?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, disabled people’s groups, such as the Disabled Persons Transport Advisory Committee, agree that greater use of independent mobility assessments is needed to determine eligibility fairly and robustly.

[Lord Richard]

My Lords, will the independent assessors be medically qualified?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, independent health professionals such as physiotherapists and occupational therapists are often best placed to assess eligibility due to their professional knowledge of mobility.

[Baroness Gardner of Parkes]

My Lords, is it not a fact that in the central London boroughs, where disability badges are slightly more restricted and you must have an additional badge from the local borough, the system has been working very well? People from the borough also rely on a report from a GP. Does the Minister not think that the more serious problem is abuse of the blue badges, whereby very fit people are using them when they have nothing to do with a disabled person?

[Earl Attlee]

My noble friend makes a very good point. There is nothing to prevent an applicant producing evidence from his or her GP outlining their condition. My noble friend is quite right to identify the abuse, which is a big problem. However, the blue badge improvement service will greatly assist in reducing the abuse.

[Lord Wigley]

My Lords, if there is a reduction in the number of badges given out as a result of the consultation, will those who lose their badges be eligible for an appeal process and will that not add a further cost to the whole system?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, there is an appeal process—I have unfortunately forgotten exactly what it is, but I shall write to the noble Lord. It is important to understand that the number of blue badges issued has gone up and up. There are already 2.5 million badges. As you increase the number of blue badges, you can get into a position where you dilute the benefits.

[Lord Dubs]

My Lords, in assessing the results of the consultation, will the Minister bear in mind that there are sometimes quite confusing differences in the operation of the scheme for disabled drivers from one London borough to another? If one lives in a particular borough and uses a blue badge only there, it is easy, but if one goes into the central London boroughs—Kensington, Westminster and Camden—the rules are different and it is extremely confusing for people because they do not know what the rules are and they are not clearly stated anywhere. The best thing might be if all the boroughs operated in the same way.

--- Later in debate ---

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I shall draw the noble Lord’s points to the attention of my honourable friend Mr Norman Baker.

[Baroness Brinton]

My Lords, given the debate that has gone on about the new process, I have just been through it and have found it to be very smooth and very fast. It is extremely helpful and the advice from various medics was useful. The noble Baroness, Lady Gardner, asked about abuse of disabled bays. What can the Government do to encourage the reduction of abuse? In France, the supermarket chain, E.Leclerc, has a notice under wheelchair signs that says, “You take my space; you take my handicap”.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I should make it clear that the blue badge scheme has no effect off road on private land. However, supermarkets are bound by the provisions of the Equality Act and need to provide disabled parking bays. I am quite confident that a supermarket will take into consideration that a blue badge is on display and I would imagine that most responsible supermarkets would do their best to avoid abuse of disabled parking spaces because it is a morally bankrupt thing to do.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

The Minister has adduced two reasons for why there may be improvements to the blue badge scheme. The first is that it may reduce fraud, which we would all welcome. The second, which I think much of the House would be very doubtful about, is that doctors have been too lenient in the past and that it is best if they are kept at some distance from the issue. In that case, what estimate has the department made of the reduction that is likely to occur in the number of blue badges issued?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, in future, the number of blue badges to be issued will depend on the results of the consultation and on what decision Ministers make. Our problem is that the passported benefit is from the personal independence payment rather than the higher rate mobility component of the disability living allowance. That is going to be a different system. It is bound to produce a variation but we do not know exactly what that variation will be. Another difficulty is that the data sets are quite poor, so it is difficult to assess what the outcome will be.

Civil Aviation Bill

Earl Attlee Excerpts

Wednesday 24th October 2012 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Earl Attlee]

That the amendments for the Report stage be marshalled and considered in the following order:

Clauses 1 to 13, Schedule 1, Clauses 14 to 30, Schedule 2, Clauses 31 to 47, Schedule 3, Clauses 48 and 49, Schedule 4, Clauses 50 to 55, Schedule 5, Clauses 56 to 59, Schedule 6, Clauses 60 to 72, Schedule 7, Clauses 73 to 76, Schedules 8, 9 and 10, Clauses 77 and 78, Schedule 11, Clauses 79 to 82, Schedule 12, Clauses 83 to 90, Schedule 13, Clauses 91 to 99, Schedule 14, Clauses 100 to 112.

Motion agreed.

Isles of Scilly: Helicopter Services

Earl Attlee Excerpts

Wednesday 24th October 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Berkeley]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to ensure a lifeline passenger service to the Isles of Scilly following the closure of the helicopter service on 1 November 2012.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the Isles of Scilly Steamship Company, which operates the ferry and fixed-wing services, has already announced plans to increase those services to meet some of the passenger demand following the closure of the helicopter service. My honourable friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Mr Norman Baker, has recently met, and is due to meet again, delegations including the Isles of Scilly Council to discuss transportation to and from the Isles of Scilly.

[Lord Berkeley]

I am grateful to the Minister for that reply because it marks some progress, even if the Isles of Scilly Steamship Company is now a monopoly supplier of transport services. Is he aware that during the five months between now and the beginning of next April, there will be only a small fixed-wing service of aeroplanes that are susceptible to wind and fog— for example, the service did not run yesterday? If the evidence of last winter is taken into account, the service would not run for 22 days over five months. With a population of around 2,000 people earning the fourth lowest wages in the UK and a reliance on tourism, those who use the aeroplane service have to pay £140 return. Does the noble Earl agree that in Scotland, most of the islands have both air and ferry services as lifeline services, and the fare for the equivalent distance is £25 return? Will the Government now look at a lifeline service for the Scilly Isles so as to take this forward and make the service comparable with that in Scotland?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the noble Lord used the word “monopoly”, which implies that there can be only one operator. It is a free market and other operators can come in. We need to see how the market develops. The noble Lord also talked about the “lifeline”, which is a term generally used to describe vital transport connections between mainland and island communities. However, it carries no formal or legal status. The Government recognise that many people regard maritime passenger and freight services to the Isles of Scilly as a lifeline, and that is why we have said that we are committed to ensuring that these continue.

[Lord Cameron of Dillington]

My Lords, are the Government aware that the cost of transport to the Isles of Scilly is four times more expensive than that from the mainland to the Scottish islands over an equivalent distance? As a result, businesses and the tourist industry in the Scilly Isles are suffering badly and are in rapid decline when compared with those industries in the Scottish islands. The total absence of a ferry service, as already mentioned, between November and March means that running a business or even leading a normal life is becoming a pretty precarious enterprise in the Scilly Isles.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I have read carefully the report produced by the Council of the Isles of Scilly comparing transport services to the islands with those of Scotland. It is a well written report, but I would point out that the situation in Scotland is different because it involves much more complicated and wide-ranging services that cannot be operated on a commercial basis. At the moment, the service to the Isles of Scilly is operated on a commercial basis.

[Baroness Trumpington]

Perhaps I might ask the Minister whether the air ambulance service will operate in that area when the ordinary air service ceases.

[Earl Attlee]

As ever, my noble friend asks a very good question. There is an air ambulance service that can deal with medical emergencies. In addition, there is the search and rescue service from the Royal Naval Air Station at Culdrose.

[Lord Teverson]

My Lords, following up the point made by my noble friend Lady Trumpington about medical services, these are very important because one of the key issues that has been identified is that fixed-wing services cannot substitute for the helicopter service in terms of speed or indeed handling individuals. I understand that the cost of RNAS Culdrose offering that service is £14,000 per return trip. What provision will be made over this winter for medical emergencies, not just for individuals but for medical supplies and blood samples, so that the islands are not isolated in this key way?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the problem we face is that we have lost the helicopter service to the Isles of Scilly for the time being. I understand that the Isles of Scilly Steamship Company, which operates a fixed-wing air service, has now made arrangements with the local primary care trust to take over some of the transportation of patients and medical supplies, including blood products and samples, which were previously carried by helicopter, having secured the appropriate CAA licences. Noble Lords will recall that the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, identified that there were only a few days in the year when helicopter services could go to the Isles of Scilly but fixed-wing aircraft could not.

[Lord Greenway]

My Lords, is it not the case that the Isles of Scilly Steamship Company also operates two cargo vessels, one of which sails three times a week during the winter, and which carries a few passengers?

--- Later in debate ---

[Earl Attlee]

The noble Lord is correct. However, we must also understand that the problems of transport services to the Isles of Scilly make for increased costs for the people living on the islands, so we need a solution that is not too expensive but which meets the needs of the people on the islands.

[Baroness Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde]

My Lords, I was pleased to hear that the Minister has read the comparative study produced by the Council of the Isles of Scilly, which demonstrates very clearly—and factually—just how poorly the Isles of Scilly compare with the islands of Scotland. The Minister has just said that they are different. They are different because we recognise in Scotland that these services are not commercially viable and therefore the Government pay, but the Isles of Scilly is a commercial arrangement. Will the Minister consider changing the designation for the Isles of Scilly to give them the same status as that of the islands of Scotland?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, we could make a public service obligation if the market failed. The market has not yet failed. In addition, there would have to be a competitive bidding process. We do not want to interfere at this point because we want to see whether there will be a commercial solution to the problem.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, the Minister has given some encouraging news about the increase in services, but he will appreciate that the House is still greatly exercised about communication with the Scilly Isles, particularly during winter. If we find that the Scilly Isles are effectively cut off for a number of days in winter, I hope that the Minister will return to this issue and take some action.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I assure the House that my honourable friend Mr Norman Baker takes these matters very seriously and is on the case.

Bus Industry

Earl Attlee Excerpts

Thursday 18th October 2012 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Bradshaw for tabling this debate. The noble Lord, Lord Snape, asked why there is a 10-minute Back-Bench speaking limit. That was a decision of the Procedure Committee approved by your Lordships’ House. It is a shame that there are not more contributors, but perhaps on a Thursday afternoon we can understand why.

[Lord Snape]

Will the Minister then use his enormous influence to see that when there is next a 90-minute debate and there are only a few of us, we can take 90 minutes instead of gabbling through everything in 10?

--- Later in debate ---

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I can assure the House that noble Lords have been challenging enough in the debate so far without it being extended.

Buses play a vital role in our economy. Sixty-three per cent of all public transport trips are made on local buses, a total of 2.3 billion bus journeys in 2010-11. The bus is essential for many people to get to work and education and to visit doctors and hospitals. For many, the bus is a lifeline and, without it, they would not be able to socialise. More than half of those who rely on the bus outside London do not have access to a car.

As many noble Lords have pointed out, customer satisfaction with their bus journeys is high, with 85% of passengers being satisfied with their service. The under-21s make up a third of bus passengers and use among the over-60s is increasing as a result of the national concessionary pass. A recent study by the University of Leeds has reinforced the importance of buses to a healthy and growing economy. I was grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Snape, for his positive comments about the bus industry.

The Government remain committed to improving bus services, and expenditure on buses reflects this. This year, the Government will spend around £1 billion on the concessionary travel entitlement and £350 million in direct subsidy to bus operators in England. Another £200 million has been allocated to funding major bus projects in the past year, including improvement schemes in Bristol and Manchester.

In March, we provided £70 million through the better bus area fund to deliver improvements in 24 local authorities, £31 million to invest in low-carbon buses and the second instalment of a £20 million package to support community transport. Many bus improvement schemes have also been funded as part of the Government’s £600 million local sustainable transport fund. All this funding demonstrates how important the Government consider bus services to be.

However, the Government also recognise that improvements can and must be made, so earlier this year they outlined their plans for buses in a document entitled, Green Light for Better Buses. The proposals include reforming bus subsidy, improving competition, improving local authority capability in tendering, incentivising partnership working and multi-operator ticketing, and making bus information and ticketing easier to access for all, particularly young people. Here, I pay tribute to the work of my honourable friend Mr Norman Baker, a Minister who is absolutely committed to public transport.

There is no doubt that we are operating in challenging economic times, and this is no different for bus operators. The Government want to ensure that the bus market is still attractive to operators, both large and small, by ensuring that funding is allocated in the fairest way while giving the best value for money to taxpayers. However, we recognise the problems that are experienced by smaller operators.

The Government have recently launched a consultation on the future of the bus service operators’ grant, which is paid to bus operators—I shall say more about this in a moment. The grant is currently paid direct to bus operators in a fairly blunt and untargeted way that is related to fuel consumption. Some local authorities have told us that they can make the bus subsidy deliver better value for money by working in partnership with their bus operators to grow the bus market. That is what the better bus areas are intended to do, and the available top-up fund will give them an additional incentive to innovate.

The better bus area policy relies strongly on partnership with commercial bus operators rather than on contractual relationships. Thus, better bus areas are quite distinct from quality contract schemes where all bus services would be tendered and the bus service operators’ grant automatically devolved to local authorities. The characteristics of local bus markets vary, so different solutions will be appropriate in different local areas. The Government believe that it is for local authorities to decide which route they should pursue.

The Government are committed to protecting the national bus travel concession, which is of huge benefit to around 11 million people, allowing free off-peak travel anywhere in England. This generous concession provides older and disabled people with greater freedom, independence and a lifeline to their community. It enables access to facilities in and beyond their local area and helps these people to keep in touch with family and friends. It can also bring benefits to the wider economy.

There is no statutory obligation to provide discounted-price travel to young people but many commercial and publicly funded reductions are available. I have been encouraged to see that in Norfolk, prompted by the council’s successful bid to the better bus area fund last year, several local bus operators are working in partnership with the county council to introduce a reduced bus fare for 16 to 19 year-olds. I welcome this initiative and hope to see more like it.

I will try to answer as many questions as possible. Obviously, I will write where I am unable to do so. Both the noble Lord, Lord Snape, and my noble friend Lord Bradshaw asked me about the Traffic Management Act. Local councils and TfL already have powers to enforce moving traffic conventions, including bus lanes, cycle lanes, yellow box junctions, “no U-turns” and “no entry” signs, et cetera. Authorities outside London that have taken civil enforcement powers can enforce moving traffic conventions in bus lanes. Over 80% of authorities already have these powers. The Government support the remainder taking those powers on.

We recognise that there is a strong desire from some local authorities outside London to have all the extra powers in Part 6 of the Traffic Management Act to enforce all types of moving traffic offences, as those in London do. We are considering this, but Ministers want to be sure of the traffic benefits of extending these powers outside London and have therefore written to Nottingham and Sheffield as part of the city deals process, proposing some projects to analyse the traffic benefits of implanting Part 6 in these regions.

The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, asked about funding a quality contract through a better bus area. Areas intending to pursue a quality contract scheme may also choose to pursue a better bus area. However, we would need to understand how this would work, both with and without a quality contract. Moreover, BBAs are strongly based on a consensual approach with bus operators. Again, we need to understand how this would work in a quality contract area where the bus operators could easily change. This is a consultation and we are interested to know whether and how this could work.

My noble friend Lord Bradshaw talked about the cost of bus fares and suggested that they are too high and rising. Overall, fares were the same level in March 2011 as in March 2010, with a 2% decrease in non-metropolitan areas and increases of 0.9% in metropolitan areas and 1.4% in London. Across the country, fares can be quite variable, with a wide range of ticket types.

The noble Lord, Lord Snape, talked about the problems of young people and high fares. Of course, bus fares can be a high proportion of a young person’s income. The noble Lord talked about the problems of job hunting and suggested that we needed a simpler process for young unemployed people to claim their travel expenses. The Department for Work and Pensions provides a range of support with travel costs for the unemployed through Jobcentre Plus, which is best placed to decide who needs support with transport costs.

My noble friend Lord Bradshaw asked what was being done to reduce antisocial behaviour on public transport. I recently experienced an extremely distressing incident on a train, so I know how much of a problem this is. A wide variety of people and organisations are involved in helping to reduce antisocial behaviour and to deal with it when it occurs. These may be transport operators, local authorities, local police and PTEs, Transport for London, town centre managers, and many others. They may deliver measures in partnership with or through others, such as voluntary organisations.

The department has convened a public transport crime liaison group, chaired by my honourable friend Norman Baker, bringing together passenger representative groups, police, local authorities and operators to hear about their work on reducing crime and to share best practice. I recognise that this is a serious problem.

My noble friend Lord Bradshaw talked about the problem of increased fuel prices of 58% due to the decrease in BSOG. We are determined to bring down the deficit. BSOG must help to achieve that, and the 20% reduction did just that. We are now looking at making the remaining BSOG more efficient.

[Lord Snape]

How much has the deficit been increased or reduced by freezing fuel duty for motorists generally?

[Earl Attlee]

That is a rather wider question, and I would be delighted to write to the noble Lord on that.

My noble friend Lord Bradshaw talked about ring-fencing BSOG. It is vital that local authorities have flexibility to use funds to best effect. However, it is also important not to get turbulence in the bus market when changes take place as we reform the BSOG, so we will ring-fence BSOG for tendered buses for a transitional period.

The noble Lord, Lord Snape, asked about BSOG in rural areas. There are no plans to cut BSOG total. BSOG for tendered services will be devolved to local transport authorities. There are lots of them in rural areas, and therefore more flexibility for local authorities best to support bus services as they see fit. Commercial BSOG outside BBAs will remain the same for now, but how we apply it will be reviewed later.

My noble friend Lord Bradshaw asked how much the Competition Commission inquiry cost the taxpayer. I do not have the figure to hand, but I will write to him. He also asked about better bus area bids excluding population areas under 100,000. We have yet to issue guidance on the criteria for designating BBAs for devolved BSOG. However, we will be looking for proposals that can help to grow the economy and reduce carbon emissions. BBA 2012 was mainly aimed at large urban areas as being more able to meet the criteria.

The final point that I can address is whether there is any incentive for better bus speeds to take driver management systems, such as RIBAS, into account when bus systems are assessed. The criteria against which better bus area bids were judged included reduction in carbon emissions, which indirectly would offer a potential incentive for operators to use driver management systems such as RIBAS, given their positive impact on fuel efficiency and carbon emissions. The long-term goal of decoupling bus subsidy from fuel consumption will incentivise greater fuel efficiency within bus service operator fleets, which, in turn, should incentivise the use of driver management systems.

[Lord Bradshaw]

The Minister has several times referred to subsidy to bus operators in respect of things such as concessionary fares. That is a subsidy to the passenger; it is not a subsidy to the bus industry.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I accept my noble friend’s point.

The Government believe in buses. The vision is for a better bus with more of the attributes passengers want: more punctual, interconnected services, an even greener and more fully wheelchair-accessible fleet and the wide availability of smart ticketing. A more attractive, more competitive, greener bus network will encourage more people on to buses, create growth and cut carbon.

House adjourned at 5.04 pm.

Railways: Franchises

Earl Attlee Excerpts

Wednesday 10th October 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, I wish to ask the Question of which my noble friend the shadow Leader of the House has given private notice.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, first, I refer to the answer that I gave the House yesterday. The Secretary of State has asked Sam Laidlaw to look into the west coast procurement process with the support of independent advice. This review is due to provide findings by the end of October and it would be premature to speculate on them. A second review will examine the implications for the wider franchising programme. Both reviews will be published reports. As I said to the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, yesterday, if there are any questions about the thoroughness and integrity of Sam Laidlaw’s inquiry, I shall be happy to debate these when his findings are made public. It is in the interests of the taxpayer that the review is conducted swiftly and thoroughly, and I have every confidence that the Laidlaw review will uncover exactly what went wrong and why.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, the question asked by my noble friend Lord Adonis yesterday, to which the Minister referred, indicated that these reviews are being carried out by officials in the department that is in the middle of this debacle, and they will inevitably involve the conduct of senior officials, including probably the Permanent Secretary, and Ministers. Therefore, how can they be carried out effectively by junior Ministers? Furthermore, how can the Minister justify the point that was addressed to him in another question yesterday? Ministers received warning of flaws in the franchise process on 10 August, a month before both the Secretary of State and the Minister of State were somewhat surprisingly reallocated to departments far away from transport.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the noble Lord asked how Sam Laidlaw and Richard Brown can perform their duties. The answer is that they will do so with integrity, and I am sure that the noble Lord is not suggesting that they are unable to do that. He also suggested that officials have acted in bad faith. I can assure the House that there is no evidence whatever of officials having acted in bad faith. It is a serious mistake but there is no evidence of bad faith.

[Lord Bradshaw]

Will the noble Earl think about the fact that the franchise process is probably irretrievably broken? Will he ask his right honourable friend the Secretary of State to make a bid for room in the legislative programme in the next Session of Parliament, as I believe it is inevitable that this Act and its successors will have to be reviewed?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I do not believe that the franchise process is inevitably broken, but that is a matter for Richard Brown to review. Professor David Begg has been reported in the Financial Times as saying:

“Because of this procurement failure we risk becoming far too negative and throwing the baby out with the bathwater. We can fix this, we’ve done it before”.

Wise words indeed, and the first and correct step is these two fairly quick inquiries.

[Lord Morris of Aberavon]

My Lords, is not the basic problem the division of responsibility between those who operate the coaches et cetera and those who operate the track? That is one reason why the Department for Transport has a most difficult task indeed. Is the Minister aware that when I chaired the joint inquiry into the finances and management of British Rail, rather a long time ago, not one witness ever suggested such a split? Given where we are, will the Government consider having an independent body of expertise to advise all government departments on the allocation of major contracts?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, if we need a more fundamental review of the structure of the rail industry, and in particular franchising, I am sure that the Brown review will suggest that. I redraw the House’s attention to what Professor Begg said over the weekend.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

The noble Earl is deliberately avoiding answering the question that is being asked by my Front Bench, which is a question that I tried to ask yesterday. Were Theresa Villiers and Justine Greening informed by civil servants, prior to the appointment of Mr McLoughlin as Transport Secretary, of discrepancies in the calculations concerned with these bids? The answer is simply yes, they were aware, or no, they were not.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, that matter is to be determined by the Laidlaw inquiry.

[Lord Martin of Springburn]

My Lords, every Monday I use the Pendolino to come here and every Thursday I go back using it. Could I put on record that it is an excellent service? Whenever it has been late it has been because it has had to slow down for the safety of the passengers. The staff are excellent and provide a good service to everyone on that train. It would be a great worry for those who come from further north if there were uncertainty over this service.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the noble Lord is one of the first to worry about the passengers. I take this opportunity to reassure all noble Lords and passengers that the service on the west coast main line will continue after 9 December.

[Baroness O'Cathain]

My Lords, in view of the fact that it has been stated that the franchise system is broken and that track and train should never have been divided, the reality is—I would like confirmation of this—that, because of the European Union, we had no option but to divide train and track.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I would not like to deny that what my noble friend has said is true.

[Lord Adonis]

My Lords, twice this afternoon, the noble Earl has cited Professor David Begg and his view that the franchise system can easily be rectified. Is the noble Earl aware that Professor David Begg is a non-executive director of First Group, the company to which his department awarded the franchise before it had to be cancelled, and that therefore he is not an entirely independent observer of these events? Does the noble Earl understand what the word “independent” means; it means that one should be apart from the matter that one is reviewing.

How can Sam Laidlaw, for whom I have the highest respect—he is an executive of great integrity—possibly be judged to be independent when he is a non-executive director of the department whose actions are the subject of an inquiry in this case, including the actions of senior civil servants and Ministers who are with him on the board? Does the noble Earl not recognise that the findings of such an inquiry will always be tainted until they are properly and independently conducted and that proper independent review cannot take place under a non-executive director of the very department that has conducted probably the single biggest failure in British public policy since the poll tax?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I answered the noble Lord’s second point yesterday. On the first point, Professor Begg chaired the Commission for Integrated Transport, which was set up by the party opposite.

[Lord Craig of Radley]

My Lords, will the Minister confirm that the Treasury was involved in considering and approving the figures worked out by the Department for Transport that proved to be at fault? If so, will the review take account of the contribution that the Treasury has made to this fiasco?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I am sure that the reviews will look at all causes of the fiasco. The difficulty is that the error was not obvious until officials started looking very closely at the figures in the light of the judicial review.

Britain’s Industrial Base

Earl Attlee Excerpts

Tuesday 9th October 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Adonis]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their assessment of the strength of Britain’s industrial base.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, this is a time-limited debate and the time for all speakers, except for the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, at 10 minutes and my noble friend Lord Marland at 12 minutes, is limited to six minutes. I remind the House that this means that when the clock shows six minutes, it means that the speaker has already reached their permitted time.

[Lord Adonis]

My Lords, I first congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Marland, on his new post. He earned great respect for his work at DECC, and I know he will do the same at BIS.

I do not think that there is much dispute that Britain’s industrial base is too weak and too narrow. If that were not the case, we probably would not be in a double-dip recession and we would certainly not be in a crisis with 2.6 million unemployed, youth unemployment of more than 1 million and national income still significantly lower than before the 2008 crash. It is taking us longer to get out of this recession even than it did to get out of Great Depression of the 1930s.

Without a stronger industrial base, we face a bleak future, and I think we now all understand the need to be bold and explicit about this. Until recently, the words “industrial strategy” were unmentionable in polite society. They were regarded as a hangover—in all senses—from the disastrous 1970s and British Leyland. However, as Vince Cable put it in his Imperial College speech last month:

“We can have an industrial strategy by default or design. Ignoring this reality is not a policy—it is just negligence”.

He continued, and I agree with this too:

“But just as bad would be to approach all our possible interventions in an ad hoc way, subjecting every policy decision to a short term tactical decision. There is not a serious and successful major company in the world that would proceed in such an unplanned way”.

I agree, but that is precisely how we have been proceeding as a country for a generation, and it has to change.

In my experience, telling stories is more powerful than reciting statistics when painting a big picture. So I want to tell four brief stories. Yesterday, I went out on a boat to see the huge new Statoil wind farm off the Norfolk coast at Sheringham Shoal. When I was not being seasick, I was amazed at the size and scale of the turbines: 88 of them, across a huge stretch of sea, each rotor 350 feet in diameter, generating enough electricity for 220,000 homes. Sheringham Shoal is only the beginning: the plan for nearby Dogger Bank, which I previously knew only from weather forecasts, is for 3,000 of these giant turbines, with construction starting in 2015 if the finance can be put together by the development consortium.

This is green energy in action. By luck of geography, we have a greater opportunity to develop it than any European nation besides Germany and Denmark. It is a huge, growing industry in construction, design and maintenance, yet in industrial terms, we are seriously behind the curve. The Statoil project director told me that barely a fifth of the construction and assembly work for Sheringham Shoal was done by companies located in Britain. The turbines are made by Siemens and imported, and the foundations, the offshore cables, and a good deal of the work installing the turbines is done by overseas companies with little or no physical presence in the UK.

I was told by Statoil that infrastructure is another weakness, in particular the absence of superfast broadband on the Norfolk coast and terrible mobile phone reception. As for the huge Dogger Bank investment, uncertainty over long-term policy for renewable energy is a bigger issue. So we are in the midst of a green energy revolution yet new jobs and investment will be delayed and/or go abroad unless we get our act together as a country. This needs to start, crucially, by ensuring that Siemens builds its proposed £210 million turbine factory in Hull, the fate of which is now uncertain because of Government prevarication on wind energy.

Story two. Last week I visited Airbus at Filton near Bristol, part of the pan-European operation which has made Airbus so brilliant a rival to Boeing with its A320s, 330s, the soon to be 350s and the giant 380s. As well as its success in China, Airbus has taken the competition directly to the United States with a new factory in Alabama. The expertise in designing and making aircraft wings at Filton is second to none, just as the engine technology at next door Rolls-Royce is second to none.

Airbus itself is a fruit of industrial policy which dared not speak its name in the 1980s, when state loans made possible the A320, an investment which has been repaid many times over. Similar state industrial policy is now equally imperative in decisions surrounding the proposed BAE/EADS merger to create a military equivalent of Airbus. The Government cannot just leave it to the market. The Government are the market in this case. The critical requirements are that the UK should be an equal partner, not a subordinate one, and that the UK’s position at the heart of any military equipment consortium should be assured.

We discussed all this at Filton. But just as pressing to Airbus were its skills requirements. Last year the company had 1,500 applicants for 86 apprenticeships. Yet despite this number, it could not recruit enough school-leavers with B grades or better in A-level maths and physics required for its higher level apprenticeships. Partly to tackle this it is sponsoring the proposed Bristol University Technical College which will specialise in engineering for 14 to 18 year-olds, but far broader action is required to supply its skill needs.

It was the same story when I visited Jaguar Land Rover’s state-of-the-art facility at Gaydon near Warwick last month. Again, a brilliant success story both in technology and products, including the new Range Rover. JLR benefits from a deep partnership with the University of Warwick, which my noble friend Lord Bhattacharyya has done so much to forge over so many years. But again, real concerns over skill levels, too small a pool of engineering graduates from which to recruit—JLR told me that by its estimates the UK is producing only half the number of graduate engineers that it needs—and too few would-be apprentices with the right skills.

Another key issue for JLR is its supply chain, too little of which is local or even British. Yet British suppliers are finding it hard, if not impossible, to secure the patient finance they need to expand and the new inward investors likewise. The Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders published a devastating report in June specifying how the growth of supply chain companies in Britain was being constrained by access to capital and lack of sectoral and regional expertise on the part of the banks.

My fourth story is from my experience as Secretary of State for Transport in the previous Government in awarding contracts for new trains. This is a big potential source of jobs and value to UK plc which will get steadily bigger as rail travel grows and HS2 is constructed in the next decade and beyond. The state is the procurer of these trains. To paraphrase Vince Cable, its contract decisions constitute an industrial strategy by default or by design, and if it is not by design then that is pure negligence. The issue is simple: because of past negligence, 21st century Britain—amazingly—no longer has a domestically owned rail manufacturer. There is only one international company, Bombardier, which even makes trains in Britain. So, as Transport Secretary, I decided to have an industrial policy by design in respect of the £4.5 billion contract to supply the successor trains to the Intercity 125s. To cut a long story short, this is what we did: Hitachi, the most experienced high-speed train manufacturer in the world, now into the seventh series of Japanese bullet trains, won the contract and agreed as part of the deal to build a factory in Newton Aycliffe in County Durham, not far from Nissan, another great Japanese inward investor in transport manufacturing. The present Government stuck with the contract, the factory is being built and there will be more than 700 new jobs.

Now I had hoped that this would be the beginning of a coherent industrial strategy to build up domestic rail manufacturing. Alas, the present Government awarded the next rail contract for the new Thameslink trains to Siemens without securing UK manufacturing. This was serious negligence. If Siemens can build a wind turbine factory in Hull, and can even be persuaded by the Russian government to build a train manufacturing plant in the Urals in order to get state contracts, it ought not to have been beyond the wit and ingenuity of Her Majesty’s Government to have secured a factory in return for the £1.4 billion Thameslink order. The failure to do so was a major failure of public policy which must not be repeated with the forthcoming order for Crossrail trains.

So, my Lords, four stories. What are the lessons for industrial strategy? It is that the fundamental planks of a modern industrial strategy are skills, technology, innovation, procurement, infrastructure, finance, and supply chains. We need a strong and dynamic private sector aided by a strong and dynamic state in all seven of these critical areas. The state needs to act strategically, not tactically. It needs to act overtly, not covertly. In short, we must end the negligence of the past and get real about building an industrial base capable of delivering the jobs and companies that Britain needs for the future.

Railways: Franchises

Earl Attlee Excerpts

Tuesday 9th October 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their estimate of the cost to the public purse of cancelling the contract award for the West Coast Main Line railway franchise.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Transport will make a full Statement in the other place at the earliest opportunity. The department will remunerate fully bidders for the direct and reasonable costs of putting together their bids and expects this cost to be approximately £40 million. The department expects additional costs from mobilising Directly Operated Railways, reissuing the tender and carrying out two independent reviews. The department will monitor these costs closely and be fully transparent in keeping the House informed.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

My Lords, it is very regrettable that the noble Earl has not taken the first opportunity in Parliament to say sorry for this fiasco. He should be truly ashamed of what has gone on so I invite him to take the opportunity to apologise. Why are the Government saying there have been regrettable and unacceptable mistakes and yet no Minister is accepting responsibility?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, some noble Lords express disappointment that a full Statement has not been made. Nobody asked for a full Statement. I was very willing to answer a PNQ yesterday afternoon but there was not one because we have the topical question today. As for ministerial responsibility, noble Lords know perfectly well that this was a highly regrettable mistake by officials, not by Ministers.

[Lord Bradshaw]

Will the noble Earl send word to his colleagues elsewhere that no new franchises should be let for any railway until full consideration is made of the high level of risk which the Government are seeking to transfer to the private sector? I believe that the private sector is unable to bear that risk because predicting revenues 15 years hence is nearly impossible. I commend him to the Mayor of London who is running the London Overground railway on an entirely different basis where the revenue risk lies with the GLC and the people running the franchise are paid to operate the railway efficiently but are not expected to take these unbearable risks.

[Earl Attlee]

My noble friend asks extremely good questions and that is the purpose of the Brown review which will look into the franchising system and report back to us by the end of the year.

[Lord Adonis]

My Lords, does the noble Earl agree, given the scale of the debacle we have seen on the west coast main line, that the responsibility of senior officials and Ministers should be examined in the forthcoming review? Is he aware that since last Tuesday the only steps that have been taken have been the suspension of three fairly junior officials and the establishment of a review under a member of the DfT’s own board, whose colleagues include all of the senior Ministers and officials of the department? Does the noble Earl agree that this is not a wise proceeding in public policy and it is probably not very moral either?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I do not agree with the noble Lord. The first step that the Government have taken is to set up two inquiries. The first one, headed up by Sam Laidlaw, will look at exactly what went wrong. If there was ministerial failure, no doubt he will identify that.

[Lord Adonis]

Sam Laidlaw is a member of the DfT’s own board. Is the noble Earl not aware of that?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, if there is anything wrong with the report, the noble Lord will be able to challenge me in this House on that very point. The first inquiry will look at what went wrong. The second inquiry will look at the wider franchising issues, as I said in response to my noble friend. We should be proud of our civil servants. I certainly feel honoured to be served by them. However, officials are human and can make mistakes, even big ones. Nevertheless, I want to make it perfectly clear that I retain full confidence in my department’s officials and I am more than content to account for their activities in your Lordships’ House.

[The Lord Bishop of Exeter]

My Lords, in the light of the noble Earl’s earlier answer about the award of other franchises, is he aware of the concerns that are already there about the award of a new franchise for the West Country? Can he indicate the likely impact of any review and the rerunning of this bid on the award of other franchises, including one that has a considerable impact on the economy of the south-west?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, it is a little early for me to answer in that much detail, but the process for the western region is being paused. However, the difficulty, of course, is with the west coast main line franchise.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, the House should congratulate the noble Earl on being one of two junior Ministers in the department who have survived. Is it not the case that the other Ministers who presided over this debacle scuttled just before the news broke, thereby denying the absolutely fundamental principle of parliamentary democracy that the buck stops with Ministers?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, that was a good try. We will have to see what the reports come out with.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

My Lords—

[Lord Butler of Brockwell]

My Lords, the chairman of the Public Accounts Committee has pointed out that since 2006 there have been eight separate Secretaries of State—more than one a year—and since 2001 there have been six different Permanent Secretaries at the department. In view of that, are the Government surprised when things go wrong in a department?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, if that is the cause of the problem, I am sure that Sam Laidlaw will identify it.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

My Lords, if I were to table—

Crime: Drink-driving

Earl Attlee Excerpts

Monday 8th October 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sheldon]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what action they are taking to reduce drink-driving.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, to tackle drink-driving, we need to give the police effective tools and to streamline the enforcement process. Our plans include revoking the right to opt for a blood test following the breath test, as this results in delay and some offenders avoiding prosecution; re-launching the drink-drive rehabilitation scheme; streamlining the enforcement processes for the drink-drive testing regime, starting in 2014; and developing publicity about the consequences of drink-driving.

[Lord Sheldon]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that very useful Answer that moderate drinking and then driving is generally reasonable. Spending on drink-driving must become acceptable; it is reasonable to expect expenditure on drink-driving.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, it is important to understand that my department is solely concerned with road vehicle safety; it is not concerned with the health aspects of drinking. However, of course, I answer on behalf of Her Majesty’s Government.

[Lord Taverne]

My Lords, 45 years ago, as a Home Office Minister, I co-operated with the excellent Ministry for Transport of the then Secretary of State for Transport, Barbara Castle, on drink-driving legislation. She very bravely ignored all the forecasts about a violent backlash from motorists and the law is now widely accepted. As Australia, New Zealand and most of the American states have now accepted random testing, which is by far the most effective way of reducing deaths and serious injuries, will the Minister advise the present Secretary of State for Transport to show the same kind of courage that was shown by Barbara Castle 45 years ago?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the difficulty with random testing is that it would not achieve the desired result. The object of random testing is to create an expectation among drivers but that would fail to produce results if not backed by raising the actual level of testing. This would not be cost-effective or a justified use of police resources in the current economic climate, because if most of these tests were random, they would prove to be negative.

[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff]

Can the Government explain why they have not considered lowering the limit from 80 milligrams per 100 millilitres of blood down to 50 or lower to bring us into line with the rest of Europe and most of the rest of the world? Why have they not considered a zero tolerance to alcohol, given that a survey by Brake showed that more than one in four people were driving the day after having consumed large amounts of alcohol and were almost certainly above the limit, although not formally tested?

--- Later in debate ---

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, we have carefully considered this issue, and we have considered and reported back on the North report. The difficulty is that if we lower the limit to 50 milligrams, we would divert resources away from the cohort of drivers who ignore the law and drive quite often at double the legal limit. The police would be tied up with dealing with these low-level offenders and would not be dealing with the much higher-risk offenders.

[Lord Berkeley]

Is not the real argument that the Minister is putting forward that any reduction in the level to that of the rest of Europe goes against the total anti-Europe policy that we see across so many fronts, rather than trying to save a lot of lives on the roads by lowering the limit?

[Earl Attlee]

No, my Lords. We act on good advice from our officials. It is important to understand—

[Noble Lords]

Oh!

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I think I shall be having a chat with the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy of Southwark, about that matter tomorrow. It is important to understand that other European countries have a lower limit but also much milder penalties. We have a policy of a slightly higher limit, which is based on the Grand Rapids study, but with severe penalties for the slightest infringement. Our results are better than the European results. I can assure the noble Lord that it is not an anti-European policy.

[Lord Avebury]

My Lords, what advice have the Government received about the number of lives that could be saved by lowering the limit to 50 milligrams?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the only thing that my department is concerned about is saving lives by having an effective policy. That means correctly allocating resources and addressing the most serious problem, which is persistent unregulated drinkers who consistently flout the law and drive with very high blood-alcohol levels.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, the noble Lord has referred to the report of Sir Peter North. He stated that he thought that, if the limit were lowered from 80 milligrams to 50 milligrams, 168 deaths a year would be saved by such action. Surely, that is a compelling argument for the Government to consider.

Earl Attlee: My Lords, it would not be if it diverted police resources from the much more serious problem of those who pay no regard whatever to the law.

[Lord Condon]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that there is merit in monitoring the impact of new legislation in France and elsewhere in Europe, which now requires motorists to carry breathalysers in their vehicles, to raise awareness of the problems and to encourage self testing by the more responsible motorists who may not know whether they are above or below the limit?

--- Later in debate ---

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I am very much aware of the French policy. However, the difficulty is that, if a motorist has a means of testing his blood-alcohol level, he will then drink up to the limit.

[Noble Lords]

Oh!

[Earl Attlee]

He will, my Lords. The difficulty is that the motorist would drink more than he would otherwise and, therefore, would take greater risks. We do not want people to drink at all.

[Baroness Gardner of Parkes]

Having just returned from Australia, I have brought back two points about this message. I believe that random testing has a very good effect: the young change their attitude and if they are going to a party, one of them drinks nothing. My other point is that new drivers, who have the highest proportion of accidents, have a nil level for at least one year after they qualify. Will the Government consider either of those possibilities?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, on my noble friend’s last point, during the passage of the Road Safety Bill under the previous Administration, that proposal was suggested. The previous Government turned it down and I believe that they were probably right to do so.

[Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe]

My Lords, although I recognise that the major problem that we face is dealing with repeat offenders, does the noble Earl agree that the second group with which we have the greatest problem, and who suffer the most deaths and have the most accidents, are people aged under 21? Following on from the previous question from that side of the Chamber, would the Government be prepared, among the several initiatives they are looking at, to contemplate a programme of zero tolerance for the under-21s, so that we might perhaps achieve a cultural change and so get the benefit in future generations?

[Earl Attlee]

The noble Lord is quite right that young drivers feature disproportionately in the statistics. A difficulty arises in initially telling youngsters that they cannot drink at all and then, at a certain point, we tell them that they can. The problem is not so much youngsters with a little bit of alcohol in them, but when they have drunk far too much.

[Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall]

My Lords, I am puzzled about an answer that the noble Earl gave to an earlier question concerning the impact of a 50 milligram limit in Europe. He appeared to imply that if the limit were that low or lower, penalties would have to be commensurately lower as well. I cannot entirely understand the logic of that. Why could we not have a lower limit and the same rigorous penalties?

[Earl Attlee]

The noble Baroness is absolutely right. She will be aware that Scotland now has the ability to set a different limit but it cannot change the penalties. If Scotland goes for a lower limit, the current penalties will apply.

Energy: Biofuels

Earl Attlee Excerpts

Monday 8th October 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the impact of the ending of the duty exemption for biofuels and the implementation of the renewable transport fuel obligation on companies in the United Kingdom that manufacture biofuels from recycled food waste.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the Government strongly believe that the renewable transport fuel obligation—the RTFO—delivers effective and sustainable market-based support to the biofuels industry. The RTFO provides additional support to biofuels made from waste by awarding two renewable transport fuel certificates—RTFCs—for each litre of fuel supplied. The Department for Transport has committed to a review of the double-certificate scheme and support provided under the RTFO in 2013.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

I would like to draw the noble Earl’s attention to the SME producers who recycle local food waste into biodiesel which has a remarkably low-carbon footprint. These companies have had to cope, in effect, with a 20p per litre reduction in their income because of the current value of certificates. It is clearly a difficult issue for these smaller companies, some of which have actually gone out of business. Will the noble Earl agree to facilitate a meeting between me, representatives of SME producers and the relevant Minister?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I am well aware of the difficulties being experienced by these SMEs with their commendable work in producing biofuels. I would of course be delighted to invite the noble Lord, and any other noble Lord who would like to come along, to a meeting with the Minister and officials—the experts who understand these quite complex issues.

[Lord Bradshaw]

Let us bear in mind that the people who recycle the food waste to which the noble Lord opposite referred are almost all very small businesses. They are not large corporations. They go round and collect fish-and-chip oil and similar things from shops, and of course they are doing a service in that this stuff is not going to landfill. Will the Minister refocus, please, on the plight of small businesses that are being very adversely affected? The RTFO certificates to which he referred are not compensating for the reduction from the previous scheme.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, although I agree with my noble friend’s analysis, he needs to understand that these fuels are also traded internationally in large quantities.

[Lord Palmer]

My Lords, does the noble Earl agree that, in reality, the RTFO is in a complete shambles, most especially because it is answerable to four different government departments? I ought perhaps to declare an interest: along with the late Lord Carter and others, I was responsible for persuading the previous Labour Government to implement the RTFO.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, several government departments may be involved but my honourable friend Mr Norman Baker is in charge of the policy. It is complicated, but I believe that it is a good and efficient policy that provides biofuels in a most efficient way.

[Lord Teverson]

My Lords, making transport fuels sustainable has to be a key aim of a low-carbon economy as they account, I think, for a quarter of all carbon emissions. What research are the Government doing to make sure that we develop sustainable biofuels for the future? It is such an important area for a sustainable economy for the future.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I do not know what research has been commissioned but I would like to inform the House of one of the difficulties with biofuels, which is some of the complex effects of indirect land use change. For instance, if you start using tallow as a biofuel then the use of certain types of tallow could increase the demand for palm oil, which could have effects on land use change far away from the United Kingdom. It is a complicated area. There is research into understanding this, but I am not sure what research the Government are directly commissioning.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, will the Government consider doing what several other European Governments are doing and separate bioethanol and biodiesel in the RTF obligation, thereby offering the possibility of avoiding exactly the problem he identified regarding what might suit large traders and significant commerce as well as the small businesses providing this very important service at a more local level?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the danger, which we are drifting into, is providing state support for small businesses. We must provide the regime with the incentive from the renewable transport fuel obligation, but we must be careful not to provide state aid to certain types of businesses.