Transport for London (Supplemental Toll Provisions) Bill [HL]
Earl Attlee Excerpts(14 years ago)
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Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, on behalf of Her Majesty's Opposition, I give my full support to the Bill. It will be appreciated that all Private Bills take a fair amount of time to pass through the House, and this one certainly has. It is very good that we have reached this point of fruition today. I am very glad that the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, is reassured on the points that he raised. I am not quite sure that I can go quite so far as him in defining Transport for London as a benign institution; I hope he will acknowledge that he was reflecting from a very narrow perspective. He will know that many of us have considerable anxieties about the operations of Transport for London, and consequently “benign” is not the first adjective that comes to mind for some. Nevertheless, we certainly wish the Bill well and warmly congratulate the noble Baroness on taking it through the House at this stage.
My noble friend Lord Tunnicliffe ought really to have been at this Dispatch Box at this moment. In fact, I sought all my powers of persuasion in arguing that it should be him, because he was in at the very origins of the Bill a number of years ago when it was considered in this House. However, he is in the dizzy position these days of shadow Deputy Chief Whip, and I hold such people in such high respect that I do exactly what I am told. That is why I am addressing the House on the Bill.
I am glad that the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, raised one or two points on which reassurance will be given in the wind-up. However, certainly in broad terms, this is an enabling Bill as far as Transport for London is concerned. We are in favour of measures that give enabling powers of this kind, provided that the necessary safeguards are in place. I am pleased to see on various parts of the coalition Benches enthusiasm for the structure of congestion charges, which gives one hope that a rather more constructive approach will be taken towards certain aspects of congestion charging in the future. This Bill gives Transport for London the powers necessary to advance the cause of Londoners in crucial areas, and we are very pleased to welcome it.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, it has been more than two years since Parliament last considered this Private Bill. This is therefore the first time that the Bill has been considered by the coalition Government and this Parliament.
Our capital city's transport network is large and complex, and it should come as no surprise that the promoters of this Bill occasionally encounter challenges that prompt them to seek specific powers further to those already on the statute book. This Government recognise the critical role that transport has to play in supporting London’s economy and with it the nation’s prosperity. We are continuing to invest in London's infrastructure, with Crossrail, the Tube upgrades and Thameslink all under way.
The Government are content for this Bill to pass to the other place, where it can be further scrutinised. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, for putting forward the Bill and for the clear way in which she explained it.
Baroness Grey-Thompson
My Lords, I thank the noble Lords and the noble Baroness who have taken part in this debate. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, for his support and should like to address the points made by the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer.
The mayor’s transport strategy had an impact on the passage of the Bill. The Bill was not intended to be applied solely to the Thames Gateway Bridge and it continues to be relevant to other projects. Other projects will be carried through in the usual way in terms of tolling.
The powers in the Bill are very wide, and the supplementary toll provisions order will not take effect unless it is confirmed by the Greater London Authority. Lots of provisions are in place. I am afraid that I cannot answer the noble Baroness’s question on emissions. I hope she will accept Transport for London writing to her on that matter; I am afraid that I am not an expert on that area of the Bill.
Olympic Games 2012: Courier Industry
Earl Attlee Excerpts(14 years ago)
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Viscount Falkland
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper. In so doing, I declare my interest as president of the Despatch Association.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, arrangements for couriers and traffic regulation during the Games are the devolved responsibility of Transport for London, but the Department for Transport is taking a keen interest in this area to ensure that the UK and London keep moving next summer.
Viscount Falkland
My Lords, I thank the noble Earl for an encouraging reply—more encouraging, I might say, than the courier industry has received thus far from the Olympic delivery committee. Might the Government be able to persuade the Olympic delivery committee, which is in charge of the arrangements, that the courier industry is not the freight industry, which seems to be its only concern? The courier industry’s service is used and relied on by most of commerce and by other organisations. It offers a valued service of 24-hour or same-day delivery. If that is not available during the Olympic Games, many businesses may suffer.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, yesterday I had a meeting with officials from TfL in order better to understand its plans for helping to deliver a successful Olympics and Paralympics. TfL’s structured programme of consultation with the larger trade associations began some time ago. It is not my role to tell TfL what to do, as it is the competent authority. However, I did mention the desirability of allowing all responsible trade associations to be able to engage with TfL, including the Institute of Couriers and the Despatch Association. I also said that the courier industry is slightly different from the freight industry, a point which the officials well understood.
Lord Glentoran
My Lords, does the Minister agree that it is not the ODA but LOCOG which will be responsible for administration at the time of the Games and that if anybody should be working with the transport industry, which of course they should, it should be LOCOG?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, my noble friend is nearly right. On 9 February 2011, responsibility for the 2012 Games travel demand management, Olympic and Paralympic route networks and road freight management programmes in London transferred to TfL.
Baroness Doocey
My Lords, does the Minister agree with me that licensed black taxis should be allowed to use the Olympic lanes during the Games? If they do not do so, a lot of them will have to put their business on hold for the six weeks of the Games.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I am not absolutely sure of the answer to the noble Baroness’s question, but I am quite sure that TfL has taken this into consideration. Very few routes will be unavailable to cars.
Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, the trouble with giving way is that one’s question is then addressed by the previous speaker. Could I just offer to the Minister a word of encouragement and warning? I am hot-foot back from the Olympic site this morning. Everyone who goes there is enormously encouraged by the preparations for the Games, which I am certain will be hugely successful when they occur. But perhaps I may give the Minister this word of warning: I had the misfortune many years ago to introduce the London bus lanes and left out the interests of the black cab trade. I still bear the scars to this very day, so I warn him lest he bear such scars.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, part of the reason why we are in such a good position with the Games is the good planning put in place by the previous Administration. With regard to the use of black cabs, noble Lords will understand that the primary route for getting to the Games should be public transport—buses, the underground and railway systems.
Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville
My Lords, given the role of the runner Pheidippides in bringing the news of the battle of Marathon to Athens, could my noble friend see whether there was any way, since he gave his name to the race, that the name of Pheidippides could be worked into the process that he has been recently defending?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, that is an extremely interesting question which I am sure my officials will love researching to enable me to write to my noble friend.
Lord Kilclooney
My Lords, can the Minister assure us that there will be no roadworks in London during the 2012 Olympics?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, when I had my discussions with the TfL officials I was very impressed with the number of different problems they have considered, and I am sure that they will do everything they can to minimise all roadworks where they could cause a problem.
Lord Tomlinson
My Lords, when the noble Earl has his next meeting with TfL officials, if he has any spare time, can he tell them that there was not exactly dancing and singing in the streets at the news of the vastly inflated salaries that they are being paid and the fact that there are now more than 360 TfL officials being paid six-figure salaries?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I was impressed enough with the TfL officials to think that future meetings would not be necessary on my part.
The Countess of Mar
My Lords, could the noble Earl impress upon the people organising the transport that some people cannot use buses or the underground because they are disabled and they use taxis instead and that these are a very important component of transport?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, the noble Countess makes an important point. The blue badge scheme has been provided for and there will be dedicated parking places for blue badge users. However, they will have to be booked in advance.
Localism Bill
Earl Attlee Excerpts(14 years ago)
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Earl Attlee
My Lords, I thank the Committee for the time, effort and thought that has been put into the amendments on these clauses. I particularly welcome some of the sensible comments of the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie of Luton, after he gave me his fairly firm strictures. We welcome such constructive contributions. I have taken on board the strictures of the Committee and I accept that there is much more that we need to do on these clauses. I also believe that the House is well placed to find a solution. Given the significance of these provisions, I intend to give a full reply. However, I will avoid getting involved in a debate about the EU or the desirability of any particular directive. On any relevant points that I do not answer, I will write in due course.
The basic principle is, I think, sound. The aim is to encourage authorities not to incur fines for the UK in the first place and, in the unprecedented circumstances that the UK is fined for an infraction, to achieve compliance quickly. We do not want to pay escalating fines to Europe. As many noble Lords have pointed out, we have never incurred fines for an infraction and do not see these provisions as a prelude to being more relaxed about infraction proceedings or fines. My noble friend Lord Tope, in his speech, accepts that it is very unlikely that EU fines will be incurred. The whole point of the policy is to avoid the fines in the first place.
My noble friends Lady Gardner of Parkes and Lady Scott of Needham Market, the noble Baroness, Lady Valentine, and others raised the issue of the air quality directive and the difficulty of apportioning liability to certain types of directive. The amendment of my noble friend Lord Tope deals with this problem in conjunction with the amendment of my noble friend Lady Gardner, although I have to caution that it may have unintended consequences in this respect, so further consideration is required. The noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, asked whether these clauses are aimed at just a few specific EU directives. I go back to my point that that is not the case; they are about avoiding problems in the first place.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
I understand that point. My specific question was whether those four areas that I identified are of particular concern at the moment, and in respect of those areas, how far, if at all, the early stages of infraction proceedings have got.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I think I will be able to give the noble Lord some comfort later in my speech. The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, rather exaggerated the spectre and size of related fines. He will recognise that most EU states are experiencing difficulties with the air quality directive, particularly in respect of NOx, but I will not weary the Committee with the technical reasons for that.
We should focus much more on preventing fines. I am therefore very interested in the amendment proposed by my noble friend Lord Tope and by the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie of Luton, on the Benches opposite. Taken together, as the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, suggested, these would target and give a very clear warning only to authorities that are putting us at risk of a fine from Europe and just for the specific breach in question. That also deals with the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, about the potentially very large numbers. Actually, the numbers directed would be very small. This would involve a parliamentary process. The issues or any culpability could be clearly debated here and in the other place. In considering the merits of these amendments, we need to ask whether naming specific authorities could result in a greater desire on their part to comply and avoid any fine. This, as the Committee is aware, is the Government’s overriding aim.
Listening to the debate it seems to me that noble Lords believe that a particular advantage of the amendments is that prior to a directive being designated, all concerned can concentrate on solving the problem rather than taking legal advice and protecting their position. That deals with the point raised by my noble friend Lady Scott of Needham Market. In other words, the meter is not running until the designation order has been approved. As such, noble Lords may consider that these amendments deal with the issue of retrospectivity raised by my noble friends Lord Cathcart and Lord Newton of Braintree and the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie. However, I make it clear that the Bill’s clauses would have to apply to existing directives, not just new ones.
We must also ensure that the mechanism used as a last resort to recoup any fines works, otherwise there will be no incentive to avoid a fine.
Lord Newton of Braintree
My noble friend has been very reassuring on general retrospection and I think I understand the point about existing directives, but in respect of an existing directive, would the potential fine apply only from the date of the designation under an amendment along the lines that he appears to be discussing, because if it applies backwards it remains retrospective?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I believe that that is the intention of my noble friend’s amendment; the meter would run only from when the directive was designated.
The process must be fair, reasonable and proportionate. I therefore warmly welcome the draft policy statement from the Greater London Authority, mentioned by my noble friend Lord Jenkin, arising from discussions with the Government. A copy has been placed in the Library and I would welcome any comments on it. I was also very interested to see the amendments of my noble friend Lady Gardner of Parkes.
Lord Jenkin of Roding
I am sorry; my noble friend is clearly doing his best, but the draft statement was obviously drawn up after the discussions had got so far with the department. Are those discussions still going on?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I will be delighted to deal with the noble Lord’s point later in my speech.
I was very interested to see the amendments tabled in the name of my noble friend Lady Gardner of Parkes. In considering the merits of these, we would need to be certain that any panel would provide additional value on top of the existing availability of judicial review. Amendment 114A, tabled by my noble friends Lady Eaton and Lord Tope and the noble Lords, Lord Beecham and Lord McKenzie, would take this a step further. I do not feel, however, that arbitration is appropriate. This is not just about deciding between disputing parties on a breach of contract; it is a complex matter that involves myriad decisions, including on the apportionment of resources and most importantly on the ability to pay. It is not appropriate for a single unelected individual to make such decisions, any more than it would be for them to decide the local government finance settlement.
The noble Lord, Lord Beecham, made a point about the revenue support grant. I go back to my point that it is not about raising money; it is about avoiding the fines in the first place.
Lord Berkeley
The Minister mentioned ability to pay. If a council has no money, does that mean that the Government will not have to pay?
Earl Attlee
Not quite, my Lords, but the decision-making process will have to ensure that what the council pays is affordable. It may hurt them, but there is no intention to bankrupt a local authority, which I think would concern noble Lords. There has to be an affordable fine. However, if an amendment similar to the one tabled by my noble friend Lady Gardner of Parkes were put in place, it would be hard for Ministers to ignore its advice without making themselves vulnerable to judicial review. I am very grateful for the clear way in which my noble friend explained her amendments.
I welcome the tone of the speech by the noble Baroness, Lady Greengross, and I can confirm that we will make clear in the policy statement our commitments to the principles of fairness, reasonableness, proportionality and no surprises. This is why I find the draft document from the Greater London Authority so helpful. Unfortunately, the amendment, which seeks to put tougher tests on culpability by using the criminal standard of law, causes some real practical difficulties. Unfortunately, the European Court of Justice proceedings are based on civil standards of proof. Rather than rerunning the European procedures here in the UK to the higher test, it is better to use a court’s finding to focus on quickly achieving compliance.
My noble friend Lord Jenkin of Roding seeks to ensure that the Government cannot designate any private company. I agree that we should not penalise companies for their private services and functions. I believe that this amendment needs further consideration. We need to ensure clarity as to who is to be covered by these provisions.
Finally, to the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, whose amendment we are debating, I suggest that there is no need for his amendment. Clause 36 sets out that the powers apply only to English authorities exercising public functions in England.
Lord Wigley
As I flagged up at Second Reading on 7 June, the Minister in another place said that this is likely to come into force in other parts of the United Kingdom. If that is the Government’s intention—and as the noble Lords, Lord Newton and Lord Empey, and others have said, it would have implications if it did not and it has implications if it does—at what stage would we know conclusively that this part of the Bill was not going to be changed to include us? If it is to be changed, can it be changed in time for us to table amendments as necessary on Report to deal with the consequences of this being applicable to Wales, Scotland or Northern Ireland?
Earl Attlee
I am coming to that. The noble Lord, Lord Wigley, asked whether the Government will give an assurance that the UK Government would not stop the Welsh Assembly Government from negotiating with the EU. The UK Government recognise that the devolved Administrations will have an interest in European policy-making in relation to devolved matters, notably when action by them may be required for implementation. The UK Government will involve the devolved Administrations as fully as possible in discussions about the formulation of the UK’s policy position on all EU and international matters that touch on devolved matters.
The noble Baroness, Lady Scott of Needham Market, asked whether we are confident of our legal position. Parliament is sovereign and can give powers to Ministers to pass on EU fines in accordance with the law as passed by Parliament.
The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, asked about the number of transport directives in difficulty. I cannot confirm his numbers. However, he will be aware that many problems are relatively minor and easily dealt with and some of these matters are progressing faster than others.
My noble friend Lord Cathcart talked about gold-plating, but we cannot be infracted for doing additional things. He also made the important point, which the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, touched on, about the effect of any fines. As I said previously, the Secretary of State has to take into consideration the effect on a local authority of fines, and any arrangements that were put in place as a result of the solution that we devise would obviously have to have that effect.
My noble friend Lord Newton of Braintree and the noble Lords, Lord McKenzie and Lord Wigley, asked about the extent of these clauses. England and Wales are one legal jurisdiction, which is why the extent is England and Wales. However, the application of the clauses is to English authorities, but we are in discussions with devolved Administrations about how the clauses may be relevant to their areas for reserved matters, and we will be prepared to look at their requests very carefully indeed.
Lord Newton of Braintree
I had actually decided not to intervene, because it seemed almost unfair. There is nothing more certain, I would judge, than that if the UK Government approach the Scottish Government—I do not know about the Welsh—and say, “We have this policy and if we get a fine that applies either north of the border or across the border, will you pay your share?”, they will tell us to get stuffed.
Earl Attlee
My noble friend Lord Jenkin asked where we are in negotiations with outside bodies. He is of course, correct in what he surmises. However, your Lordships and another place will have to decide what is to be done in the end. In conclusion, I would like the opportunity to consider, in consultation with ministerial colleagues, those suggested amendments which could provide a way forward and a solution.
While I am clear that putting the decision-making in the hands of a single unelected individual is not helpful, I am very willing to take away the other suggestions from noble Lords. I believe that together we can develop good solutions in time for Report. While I cannot accept a veto, I am very happy to continue discussions with outside bodies and noble Lords in order to develop this good solution before Report. In the light of what I have said, I hope that the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Berkeley
Will the Minister explain his last reference to the different types of organisations that might be covered, which the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, and I raised, be they water companies or railway companies? Is the Minister going to write to noble Lords who have spoken with more detailed responses to all these things, or is he going to recommend that we put down amendments on Report about which should be covered and which should not?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I am very happy to enter into detailed discussions with any noble Lord.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
Noble Lords will be grateful for the response that the Minister has made because he has indicated that this is very much open and there is scope for a lot of further detailed discussion. Can I be clear that included in that discussion will be issues around the point at which local authorities will be notified of possible infraction proceedings and the opportunity to engage in the iterative, informal discussions and negotiations that go on before we get to an Article 258 situation? Any review and assessment of the outcome would cover that early engagement and its legitimacy as well as just looking at the divvying up of the fine that may result at the end of the day. Can we have the opportunity to engage with the Minister along the way so that we will have no surprises when we come to Report?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, the noble Lord will know that infraction proceedings are a very long process, even after the Lisbon process, which, I understand, makes it a little shorter. The designation procedure suggested by the noble Lord, Lord Tope, would provide a very clear signal. One of the questions that my noble friend would have to answer—and we can do this offline—is: at what point would you designate a local authority? I would suggest that it would be after you get to a difficult stage in negotiations with the EU. I would be very happy to discuss that point with the noble Lord.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
I know the Minister has gone through a lot this evening on this. It is not just a question of designating so that you know that you are potentially in the frame; it is an opportunity for a local authority to engage with the Government, who are obviously responsible for the negotiations. Since it is a negotiation, and a deal is often struck at the end of the day, where that deal is struck could affect a particular local authority or group of local authorities in ways that are different from the way others are affected. Therefore, that chance to impact on that process early seems vital if people are going to be assured that there is a reasonable process going forward. It is not just being designated; it is being designated at a point where you can engage with the ongoing pre-formal process of the infraction proceedings.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, the noble Lord makes an important point, but the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Tope, deals with it because until the directive has been designated, the Government can deal and negotiate freely with the Commission and with the affected local authorities to try to find a solution to the problem. Most of the time, we will be able to achieve compliance relatively easily. I hope we will never get to a situation where we cannot achieve compliance.
Lord Tope
Before the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, tells us what he is going to do with his amendment, which, as we were reminded just now, is the one we are supposed to be debating, I thank the Minister for his conciliatory response to us tonight and for recognising—indeed, after nearly two hours, he could hardly fail to recognise—that the clauses as drafted are not quite perfection and that more needs to be done. We are, of course, very willing to engage in constructive discussions to try to find a solution and a way through this. I think he will have heard many times during this debate that to have the Secretary of State as prosecutor, judge, jury and executioner is simply not acceptable to your Lordships, and he has made the point that a single unelected arbiter is not acceptable to the Government. Therefore we need to find some solution: an arbitration that is seen to be fair on all sides. That is perhaps where we should concentrate.
As my final word on this subject, I ask the Government to consider seriously the can of worms that others have referred to and which has been spoken of many times in this debate. I suspect that the Government did not fully recognise it when drafting this Bill. Given all the potential difficulties that are implied in all this, should the situation ever arise, is it really worth pursuing Part 2? I think it has been said on all sides of the Committee that our preference would be not to have Part 2.
Lord Tope
I think that came from all sides of the Chamber. The Government have perhaps recognised that shadow mayors are not to be pursued. It may be time that they should also have the courage to consider whether Part 2 is worth all the trouble that it may potentially cause and whether the best solution to the dilemma we have spent the past two hours debating might be just not to pursue it at all.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, inspiration has arrived regarding one of the questions asked by the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie. He asked at what point local authorities would be notified that there is an infraction proceeding. They are made aware via relevant departments from the outset of formal proceedings—so, from an Article 258 letter of formal notice.
Lord Wigley
My Lords, I shall not detain the Committee very long in winding up this fairly substantial debate. I thank the Minister for the movement that he has indicated in response to representations on the generality of the problems arising with local government. The concerns of the Welsh Local Government Association are very similar to those of the LGA and the extent that Part 2 can be amended between now and Report to meet those concerns will be equally as welcome in Wales as elsewhere, if the Act, as it will be, is to be applicable in Wales.
I concur entirely with what the noble Lord, Lord Tope, said a moment ago about doing away with Part 2 in its entirety. That would avoid all the problems, but judging from the comments made by the Minister in responding to the debate, it seems that there is still an intention to have a Part 2, albeit amended. If that is the case, I hope that the message will be taken loud and clear from this Chamber that the Minister made it clear that by virtue of Section 36, the Act will apply in England only as things stand now. That will be heard particularly by my good friend Mr Alex Salmond and by others as well, as will the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Newton, about the response if there were attempts to take money from local authorities in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland in relation to this Bill. I entirely understand that noble Lords from England will feel that there would be inequity if that was the case, and that is why I suspect that at some point in time we will find a formula that brings in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland.
If that is the case, it needs to be in the Bill. It needs to have an opportunity to be discussed and debated and to have all the opinions from those three areas brought on board before a final conclusion is reached in relation to the legislation. I very much hope that between now and Report, if there is to be movement away from what the noble Lord said—that it does not apply, as it presently stands, to the two nations of Wales and Scotland and to the Province of Northern Ireland—that can be made known to us in good time so that there can be discussion, if necessary, and discussion with the authorities in the devolved Administrations so that on Report we can address this in a way that will be acceptable, at least in terms of debate, discussion and parliamentary process, by those who have to live with the consequences. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Equality Act 2010 (Work on Ships and Hovercraft) Regulations 2011
Earl Attlee Excerpts(14 years ago)
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Earl Attlee
That the Grand Committee do report to the House that it has considered the Equality Act 2010 (Work on Ships and Hovercraft) Regulations 2011.
Relevant Documents: 23rd Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, the power to make these regulations is in Section 81 of Part 5 of the Equality Act 2010. The regulations were not introduced when most of Part 5 was commenced because further consideration was necessary on the issue of seafarers’ pay. The draft regulations, if approved, will serve two purposes: applying the Part 5 work provisions of the Act to work on ships and hovercraft and to seafarers, and addressing the European Commission’s concerns regarding differential pay for seafarers. I shall explain briefly how Part 5 would apply to work on ships and hovercraft and to seafarers, and then say a few words about seafarers’ differential pay.
The proposals aim to ensure that the level of protection afforded to land-based workers under Part 5 is extended to those at sea, creating as consistent as possible an approach. The Act has many benefits, providing a cross-cutting legislative framework to protect individuals’ rights and to advance equality of opportunity for all. It delivers an accessible framework of discrimination law, protecting individuals from unfair treatment and promoting a fairer, more equal society. Part 5 deals with work, giving protection in respect of specified protected characteristics from discrimination, harassment and victimisation, these being: age, disability, gender reassignment, marriage, civil partnership, pregnancy, maternity, race, religion or belief, sex and sexual orientation.
Broadly speaking, the regulations would apply Part 5 to seafarers, irrespective of nationality, working on board a UK-registered ship operating wholly or partly in GB or adjacent waters; and to EEA and designated state seafarers, where the legal relationship of their employment is located in or closely linked to Great Britain, working on board EEA-registered ships or hovercraft operating wholly or partly in British or adjacent waters. For ships operating wholly outside those waters, the regulations would apply on UK-registered ships only. Just to be clear, the designated states in question are those countries having various specific agreements with the EU, such as association agreements. They include various European states such as Russia, Mediterranean states such as Algeria and Morocco, and the countries of the African, Caribbean and Pacific group of states, with the exception of Cuba.
On a point of detail, while most of the obligations within the Equality Act are underpinned by EU law and therefore EEA states are also bound by those obligations, because the protected characteristic of marriage and civil partnership is a domestic provision not required by EU law, that protected characteristic is excluded as regards ships registered in EEA states other than the United Kingdom.
The United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea—UNCLOS—restricts a state’s ability to apply legislation to foreign-flagged ships but, where a seafarer works wholly or partly in Great Britain, these regulations will apply Part 5 to seafarers on ships registered in an EEA state other than the UK, provided the criteria that I have just mentioned are met. The regulations will ensure compliance with European law and provide clarity to employers and employees while achieving the intended effect of applying Part 5 to as broad a range of ships, hovercraft and seafarers as possible without breaching UNCLOS or European law, or placing additional burdens on UK-registered vessels alone.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, this has been an interesting and, as usual when the noble Lord, Lord Lester of Herne Hill, is involved, well informed debate. I thank all noble Lords for their contributions. Gathered here today is a wealth of transport and equal rights experience, and I am grateful for the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, that we should solve the immediate problem first of all and then consider the wider issues.
On 2 March 2010, in a debate during the Report stage of the Equality Bill, the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, made an impassioned plea on behalf of seafarers in respect of both differential pay and the UK national minimum wage. Unfortunately, the noble Lord cannot attend the Committee today due to duties in the Chamber.
In response to that earlier debate, the then government Minister, the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, said:
“The Government must carefully consider the implications of ending the practice of differential pay”.—[Official Report, 2/3/10; col. 1384.]
This Government have carefully considered the issue and I pay tribute to my colleague in another place, the Maritime Minister. Since taking office, he has demonstrated a hitherto unseen level of determination to address the issue. He has consulted extensively with the shipping industry and with the unions.
As I said in my opening remarks, the Government accept that the regulations on differential pay do not go far enough for some, while for others they go too far. The noble Lord, Lord Lester of Herne Hill, is clearly embedded in the first camp. However, the Government are determined to protect the future of the UK shipping industry and with it the Red Ensign. The regulations that we are considering do the least possible to avoid a substantial fine being imposed by the European court.
The UK national minimum wage for seafarers is also a highly complex area and the Government are very familiar with the concerns expressed by the maritime trade unions. A legal working group that includes these unions was set up to look into how far international and EU law would allow the Government to apply the UK national minimum wage to non-UK ships. The conclusions of the working group will be submitted to Ministers in due course, after which all interested government departments, including the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, which is responsible for the national minimum wage policy, will give further consideration to the issue.
I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Lester of Herne Hill, for giving me advance notice of what he intended to say. I, too, picked up the “shipbuilding” typo but rapidly translated it into “ship owners”. In reply to the noble Lord, and with all due respect, indirect discrimination is not the issue here. The regulations allow discrimination on grounds of nationality. That is direct discrimination, excused by paragraph 1 of Schedule 23, “General Exceptions”, and by Section 81, which says that Part 5 of the Act applies to seafarers only in such circumstances as are prescribed. These regulations prescribe the circumstances.
I confirm that it will continue to be lawful to pay some seafarers differently because of their nationality if they were recruited outside Great Britain and are not British citizens or nationals of another EEA state or designated state. That will include Filipino seafarers.
Lord Lester of Herne Hill
I fear that I have not explained my point clearly. Something may be discrimination on grounds of nationality and also direct or indirect race discrimination. It may involve discrimination based on nationality and ethnicity or on national origins, for example—that would be direct discrimination—or it may be indirect discrimination based on nationality, national origins and ethnicity. I will not go through the definitions in the Equality Act to explain what I have just said, but the definition is very large and the case law makes what I have just said crystal clear, whether it applies to “no turbans”, “no Irish” or discrimination using other foreign epithets. It is quite clear from court rulings that discrimination may be ostensibly on one ground but in fact is on others. I do not want to see litigation on this matter because we have not dealt properly with it.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I fully understand my noble friend's desire to avoid litigation. These extremely complex issues are well beyond my understanding, but I will give the noble Lord a detailed response in writing. My noble friend’s argument is an essentially legal one and I hope that the Committee will forgive me if I write to him.
There remains the question of whether it is immoral to allow differential pay in any circumstances. That is a rather simpler question to answer. The short answer is no. The world is not that simple. That is why, traditionally, seafarers from around the globe have tended to be paid amounts commensurate with the domestic job market in their own countries. If seafarers from countries with generally low-paid workforces were paid at higher rates, this could seriously distort the job market in their own country. Imagine, for example, a situation in which highly skilled surgeons or other professionals find themselves better off serving as ratings on ships than using all their training, skills and knowledge to help to cure people and solve their problems. This would be damaging at a far deeper level, and I suspect that there could be other serious unintended consequences.
My noble friend Lord Lester asked me why the protected characteristic and civil partnership were excluded.
Lord Lester of Herne Hill
I am sorry; I have not asked that. Although I put it in my draft, I am satisfied with what the Minister said on that.
Earl Attlee
I am obliged to the noble Lord.
The aim is to apply the regulations to as many ships as possible of whatever flag, in so far as this is consistent with international law, to limit the effects being felt by the UK flag alone. The extension of the application of Part 5 to EEA ships is therefore limited to those protected characteristics which are underpinned by EU law. A ship flagged to EEA states would be under the same obligations. The characteristic of marriage and civil partnership is not an EU obligation and so is excluded.
My noble friend Lord Higgins made several important points. I accept his points about the importance of the UK register, and I hope that that came out in my comments. On the effect on the UK flag, leaving aside the issue of differential pay for the moment, the effect of applying the new consolidated equality legislation to work on ships is not very burdensome. Indeed, it should bring benefits through greater clarity for employers and employees.
As to the effect caused by the need to change the law in respect of seafarers’ pay, we cannot say with absolute certainty what the effect will be on the UK-flagged fleet, although many noble Lords have suggested what it could be. We have consulted closely with all sides of the shipping industry on the likely effect and will monitor it closely. We are regulating in a way that will be least disruptive to the industry while allowing it to comply with EU law. We are also seeking undertakings from the European Commission that it will be vigilant in ensuring that other EU member states are also following EU law.
My noble friend Lord Higgins asked me about the review provided for in the regulations, and asked whether we would review earlier. As I indicated in my opening remarks, we will keep the implementation and the situation under close observation.
My noble friend Lord Moynihan asked me why the regulations did not appear to apply to Northern Ireland. Northern Ireland has been asked to introduce its own parallel legislation at the earliest opportunity. Until that legislation is also approved, the UK will remain in breach of EU law. The European Commission has been informed that action in Northern Ireland was necessarily delayed due to recent elections, but that the matter is in hand. My noble friend also asked me a rather detailed question about the definition of “sufficiently close link”. It is a basket of measures as set out in Regulation 2(2)(b). It will be determined by reference to all relevant factors including those set out in the regulations.
Noble Lords asked me particularly about the Carter report. I agree that it is a significant report. Susan Carter reviewed all of the evidence submitted by stakeholders and came to the conclusion that she did. She was not asked to consider any other evidence, such as that from government. Maybe Susan Carter’s report was a comment on the industry’s evidence to maintain the status quo. As I have already indicated, my honourable friend Mr Penning, the Shipping Minister, has consulted extensively.
I am grateful to all noble Lords for their contributions. The wider issues are indeed complex. As indicated, I will write to all noble Lords who have contributed to the debate.
Lord Tunnicliffe
Will the noble Earl write specifically on the consideration that the department has given to Susan Carter’s report and say why it does not share her conclusion? He seems to give a partial explanation which I do not think is valid. Susan Carter consulted as widely for her report as the department has for the regulations.
Lord Lester of Herne Hill
While the noble Earl is dealing with that, I should add that Ms Carter states at the beginning of her report:
“This report reviews evidence submitted by key stakeholders in the shipping industry about differential pay for seafarers on grounds of nationality. The Department for Transport invited them to submit financial estimates of the likely impact of either: option A … or option B”.
That the department did not give evidence is, with respect, not the point; the point is that the department asked her to do this job on the basis of evidence submitted by—that ghastly phrase—“key stakeholders”. Therefore, I am mystified as to how anyone reading her report could fault her findings or her conclusion. I would be very grateful if the Minister would write to us about that as well.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, paragraph 8.4 of the Explanatory Memorandum states that a summary of the evidence submitted can be found on a website. I will not read out the website address, but when I write to noble Lords I will discuss the Carter report. As indicated, I will write to all Members of the Committee before seeking the House’s approval of the affirmative instrument.
Localism Bill
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Lord Greaves
My Lords, in effect this is not a substantial amendment, so I probably do not have to move it formally, but I shall speak to the substantial amendments in the group.
Localism Bill
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Earl Attlee
In moving that the House be resumed, perhaps I may suggest that the Committee stage begins again not before 8.04 pm. The Committee will be aware that the House will have to debate a Statement and a Question for Short Debate, so the Committee may possibly resume a little later than but no earlier than the time I stated.
Localism Bill
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Earl Attlee
That it be an instruction to the Committee of the Whole House to which the Localism Bill has been committed that they consider the Bill in the following order:
Clause 1, Schedule 1, Clauses 2 to 11, Schedule 2, Clause 12, Schedule 3, Clauses 13 to 15, Schedule 4, Clauses 16 to 59, Schedules 5 and 6, Clauses 60 to 66, Schedule 7, Clauses 67 to 94, Schedule 8, Clauses 95 to 101, Schedules 9 to 11, Clauses 102 to 106, Schedule 12, Clauses 107 to 112, Schedule 13, Clauses 113 to 138, Schedule 14, Clauses 139 to 145, Schedule 15, Clauses 146 to 156, Schedule 16, Clause 157, Schedule 17, Clauses 158 to 161, Schedule 18, Clauses 162 to 171, Schedules 19 and 20, Clauses 172 to 174, Schedule 21, Clauses 175 to 198, Schedule 22, Clauses 199 to 201, Schedule 23, Clauses 202 to 207, Schedule 24, Clauses 208 to 211, Schedule 25, Clauses 212 to 215.
Wreck Removal Convention Bill
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Baroness Stowell of Beeston
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, for initiating this lively and interesting debate which the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, promised me at Second Reading. I am sorry that he is not in his place, but I welcome the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, to the Front Bench for this Committee stage.
Your Lordships will not be surprised that I support noble Lords who have spoken in opposition to these amendments. As I pointed out at Second Reading—and as every noble Lord contributing to today's debate understands—the costs associated with removing a wreck can be substantial and also difficult to recover, particularly as at the moment there is no straightforward obligation on ship owners to be responsible for the removal of their wreck.
The Bill builds on the well-developed arrangements that already exist for dealing with maritime casualties. Above all, it provides legal certainty by placing the primary responsibility for the removal of a wreck that poses a danger to navigation or the environment on the ship owner and ensuring that, if the authorities have to step in, the owner will pay their costs for removing it. Under the Bill, the liability of the ship owner is strict; the claimant does not have to prove that the owner was negligent or at fault.
The amendment put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, puts some of this certainty at risk. It would delete not just the discretionary power to direct authorities to remove a wreck, but, in doing so, the statutory link to cost recovery under the convention. This was referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Greenway. The Secretary of State's discretionary power to direct, included in the Bill, ensures that authorities will benefit from the convention's cost-recovery provisions when removing a wreck.
The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, said that if this amendment were to be agreed, there might be occasions when the authorities would choose to carry out or participate in the removal of a wreck in any case. If that amendment were to be accepted, ship owners or insurers would undoubtedly argue that as there is no explicit linkage to the convention's cost-recovery provisions, they do not need to pay an authority's costs. As I have already said, the fact that that direction is in the Bill invokes the connection to the convention. That argument would be reinforced and could lead to all costs having to be recovered through harbour fees or the fund because the ship owner or insurer would be able to point to the inconsistency that the amendment would create because proposed new Section 255C, which provides a similar statutory link in respect of locating and marking, would remain in place, thus allowing authorities to recover those costs direct from the owner or insurer, just as the Bill intends for all costs. There would be direction for locating and marking but not for removal.
In addition to creating inconsistencies, these amendments would also delete the provisions in proposed new Section 255F(4) for the explicit extension of the general lighthouse authorities' areas of responsibility to the edge of the United Kingdom's convention area, which noble Lords will know is up to 200 nautical miles from shore. As such, a ship owner or insurer would doubtless claim that a general lighthouse authority had no statutory basis on which to remove a wreck outside territorial waters and that therefore no payment was required.
The Bill's direction regime removes the real risks of such disputes by linking the authorities clearly and simply to the convention's cost recovery scheme. With the Bill imposing strict liability on the ship owner to remove a wreck and requiring mandatory insurance, it is clear to me that the risks of a shortfall in expenditure for recovering wrecks will actually be significantly less for these authorities than those they now experience. Other noble Lords have already pointed that out. As I understand it, as a percentage of GLA budgets, the costs of dealing with wrecks are already very small. The noble Lord, Lord Greenway, mentioned 0.04 per cent. However, to remove the provision allowing the general lighthouse authorities to obtain reimbursement for unrecoverable expenses from the General Lighthouse Fund on the rare occasion that it is not possible to recover all costs would be at odds with existing and established arrangements. Indeed, it would leave the GLAs with no obvious means by which to make up a shortfall, should they need to. I am concerned that the combined effect of these amendments would be to leave authorities wary of undertaking any wreck removal, notwithstanding what the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, said, even though they have existing powers and experience. If that were to happen, it would be in no one’s interest.
In summing up, I reiterate that the Secretary of State's powers of direction are discretionary, but they must exist and appear in the Bill for all the authorities to enjoy the benefits of the convention, as they have every right to do. I expect SOSREP to take control in the manner he now does under existing powers. As the noble Lord, Lord Greenway, described, SOSREP is aware of the authorities' capabilities, experience and capacity. If he needs to issue directions, I expect him to act reasonably and to issue them only to those he thinks capable of fulfilling them, not least for the reasons the noble Lord, Lord Addington, referred to. I will leave it to the Minister to expand further on this point if he wishes. For these reasons, I ask the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment at the appropriate time.
Earl Attlee
I am grateful to my noble friend Lady Stowell for her full response to the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley. The noble Lord referred to discussions yesterday, and I am very happy to continue them, not least because they are so interesting, because the noble Lord genuinely seeks a solution to these problems. I understand his very real concerns, and I am delighted to have the opportunity to give a fuller response in Committee.
It may be helpful to noble Lords if I say a few words about the memorandum of understanding between the Department for Transport and the GLAs. This will provide guidance and understanding about how the convention would work in practice. The Committee will understand that the development of the MoU is in its early stages, as it will be a while before the convention comes into force. The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, will want to keep abreast of developments, and I am sure that I will be able to facilitate that at the appropriate point.
Travellers: Dale Farm
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Earl Attlee
My Lords, the Home Office has agreed to set aside contingency funding, up to a maximum of £4.65 million, to assist with the costs of policing the proposed evictions at Dale Farm. The final grant awarded will be agreed after the operation and will only cover the costs incurred. In addition, the Department for Communities and Local Government has committed to provide up to £1.2 million to Basildon Borough Council to support the evictions at Dale Farm.
Lord Avebury
My Lords, will my noble friend comment on the decision to spend £117,000 per family on eviction of these people from the Dale Farm site considering that there are no other sites in the county to which they could be directed? Does this policy not simply mean that another £18 million will have to be spent by local authorities down the line on evicting the same families from even less suitable locations, to say nothing of the downstream costs on health, education and the social costs arising from these evictions?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, this is an extremely difficult and sensitive issue which my noble friend has worked on to good effect for decades. He suggests that this is an inappropriate use of potentially several million pounds of public money. However, there will be no need for any expensive police operation if those served with eviction notices leave within 28 days having exhausted all their appeal rights under our well developed system of justice and the rule of law. Why should one community group be allowed to flout our planning laws by suggesting disorder and thus an unaffordable police operation while a lone family or individual is easily required to comply?
Baroness Turner of Camden
My Lords, does the local authority not have a responsibility to have concern for these families? I believe there are 100 children involved. Surely there is an obligation on the council to look after their welfare: indeed, I believe there is an EU resolution on the stocks which would commit the local authority to doing precisely that. Why are these people being deprived of their homes after all the years that they have lived on this site?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, the noble Baroness is absolutely right. Basildon Borough Council had to make an undertaking to the High Court that the matters which the noble Baroness referred to would be dealt with properly.
Baroness Harris of Richmond
My Lords, could my noble friend tell me whether Basildon Borough Council has undertaken an equality assessment of its decision to evict the Gypsies and Travellers from this site?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, if Basildon Borough Council had not carried out a proper impact assessment of all the consequences of its action, it would probably fail in the courts.
The Earl of Listowel
My Lords, is the Minister aware of the deep concern that many Traveller children are not being well engaged in the education system, that they are being failed and that the generational impact of continued failure is being perpetuated? Is consideration being given to the education of these children and what steps can be taken to ensure that they have continuity of education and, if possible, stay in the same school?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, the noble Earl makes an extremely important point. If we carry on not properly educating Traveller children we will never break the cycle, because it is very difficult for Traveller families to engage in fully legitimate economic activity if they have not been properly educated. I referred to undertakings in my answer to the noble Baroness: the local authority has to deal with these issues.
Lord Avebury
My Lords, can my noble friend explain where these people are supposed to go, considering that there are no other sites in Essex, and no sites in the county plan?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, the local authority has obligations under the law of homelessness, as the noble Lord fully appreciates. I go back to my original point: we cannot allow people to flout our planning laws.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, the original Question was about cost. The noble Earl will know that currently we are debating the Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill, which proposes to party-politicise our police force through the election of police commissioners. Would it not be true to say that the money being spent on those elected commissioners would be better spent on ensuring that our police forces are properly staffed?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I thought that the noble Lord would raise the issue of police and crime commissioners; I would have been very disappointed if he had not. We do not intend to limit the influence of central government on policing decisions only to see the same restrictions imposed by PCCs. They will provide the community with a voice and local accountability that is currently non-existent.
Lord Stoddart of Swindon
My Lords, it is clear that this is a very complex issue. I hope that the House and noble Lords will appreciate that if this site is occupied illegally, action has to be taken to remove the occupiers. If the law is not upheld in this instance, how on earth can it be upheld in other instances which may be just as important?
Earl Attlee
I am sure that all noble Lords agree that the noble Lord has made a very good point.
Olympic Games 2012: London Air Quality
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Lord Berkeley
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what action they are taking to respond to the report of the Olympic Delivery Authority that air quality in London will exceed European Union limits during the 2012 Olympic Games.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, the Government are committed to working towards the European Union’s air quality standards and have recently made an extra £5 million available to help the mayor tackle some of London's worst pollution hotspots. During the Olympic Games our ambition is that all spectators should travel to London venues by public transport, cycling or on foot. These and other measures will help minimise air quality risks in London during the Games.
Lord Berkeley
I am grateful to the Minister for that reply. Will he say who is responsible for keeping the air at the right quality? Is it TfL, the GLA or the Government? Secondly, if there is very little wind during the Olympic Games and PM10 values exceed the limit, is he aware that the Government could be fined £180 million by the International Olympic Committee? That is what will happen if the pollution is as bad as it was in Beijing. Does he have a contingency plan?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, the answer to the noble Lord's first question is simple. Everyone is responsible: the Government, the mayor, TfL, LOCOG, the ODA and, most importantly, individuals who make their own transport decisions. As regards the noble Lord’s second question, the host city contract states that the International Olympic Committee can withhold payment from LOCOG if an event in the Olympic and Paralympic Games cannot take place for any reason or if there is non-compliance with the contract. Air quality in the UK is improving and it is very unlikely that air quality issues will result in payments being withheld.
Baroness Kramer
My Lords, I support the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, in raising this question. The Minister will be aware that London has already violated its entire annual allowance for PM10s for 2011 and we are in only the fifth month of the year. Will he give us some assurance that London will at least look at putting in place a temporary clean air zone around central London and the Olympic venues during the Olympics? If it does not, does he agree that we will end up doing what Beijing did, which was to resort to an almost impossible alternation between allowing in cars with odd-numbered plates one day and even-numbered plates the next in order to manage air quality problems?
Earl Attlee
My noble friend will be aware that the PM10 problem occurs only in a few hotspots. By and large, the PM10 problem is licked. She talked about temporary exclusion zones. That would be a matter for the mayor.
Baroness Oppenheim-Barnes
My Lords, does my noble friend agree that air quality is made a great deal worse than it would otherwise be by the traffic congestion caused by roadworks over practically every inch of London roads?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, my noble friend makes an important point. Some of the congestion caused by roadworks has produced some traffic activity and therefore produced some pollution.
Lord Hughes of Woodside
Would the shorter and more accurate Answer to the Question asked by my noble friend Lord Berkeley be that no one is responsible?
Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville
My Lords, what was the weather like in 1948 and, while we are at it, in 1908 as well?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I am not aware of the weather in those periods. All noble Lords know that legislation over the years has vastly improved the environment in which we live. We need only to think of the Clean Air Act and the benefits we got from it.
Lord Stoddart of Swindon
My Lords, I have seen reports that London or the Government are likely to be fined £300 million for pollution in London. If that is true, I hope it is not going to add to our already massive contribution to the EU budget this year and in subsequent years.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I obviously failed to explain properly to the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, that there is very little chance indeed of us being fined by the International Olympic Committee. We could be fined only if an event could not take place for any reason—for instance, if there was far too much pollution to run a marathon—or there was some non-compliance with the contract. Both those conditions are extremely unlikely to arise.
Lord Davies of Coity
My Lords, in answer to an earlier question the Minister said that we are all responsible. Is that not a case of the Government again passing the buck?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, we are certainly not passing the buck. We have helped the mayor with a £5 million grant to deal with some of the technical issues; for instance, fitting particulate traps to London buses to deal with some the PM10 hotspots that I talked about earlier.
Lord Pearson of Rannoch
Can the Minister bring us up to date with the infraction proceedings against the city of Brussels which is, I think, the only major European city which still discharges all its raw sewage into its local river? Does the Minister agree that were the wind to be blowing in the south, this might have quite an effect on the Olympic Games?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I answer for the Department for Transport and for the whole of the Government but, fortunately, I have no responsibilities for the city of Brussels.
Lord West of Spithead
My Lords, I declare an interest as a waterman and lighterman. Will the Minister say whether we have a comprehensive plan for greater use of the river, bearing in mind that we have been very poor at using barges, as we are committed to doing, for the Olympic build programme?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I rather think that we have missed the boat on that because the infrastructure is largely built. However, when I visited the Port of London Authority I detected some of the work that the noble Lord had undertaken.