Local Government Finance Bill
Earl Attlee Excerpts(12 years ago)
Grand CommitteeRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I would like to declare that in terms of local government, I am still in short trousers.
Earl Attlee
I thank noble Lords for their helpful explanations of these amendments. They deal variously with aspects of the local government finance report, particularly around the consultation arrangements that will apply. I agree that proper engagement is very important to ensure a successful outcome.
The Bill provides that the central and local shares, and the basis of calculation of payments flowing to and from local authorities, will have to be set out in the annual local government finance report. As we do currently, we will continue to consult local government on a draft local government finance report in the autumn before laying the report before the House of Commons in January or February each year. The noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, accepted this point in his opening remarks.
Amendment 25, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Smith, and I think spoken to by the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, seeks to bring forward the laying of the final local government finance report. Although I can sympathise with the good intentions of the noble Lord in bringing forward this amendment, I cannot recommend that the Committee accepts it. Amendment 25 would bring forward the process by three months from the current timetable.
The Government have always endeavoured to give local authorities the information they need as early as possible. The noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, asked me about the timetable. The current process for the local government finance report is as follows: the summer consultation is in about July and sets out the basis of calculation; the draft report comes out in approximately November and has the detail; and the final report comes out in January 2013. As for the future process, we may not need to carry out the summer consultation in future years unless there are substantial changes to the calculations.
In the past, the local government finance report timetable has been driven by the availability of up-to-date data to make the necessary calculations. Under a rate retention scheme, this will still be the case. For example, the September RPI figure, which will be used to uprate tariffs and top-ups, will not be available until later in the year. In reset years, the need for updated data will increase.
Although I cannot accept the noble Lord’s amendment, I can assure him that the Government will continue to use their best endeavours to ensure that local government, as far as possible, has the information that it needs to undertake its budgeting processes. Although I understand the intention behind each of the amendments in this group, I ask noble Lords to withdraw them. I believe they are either unnecessary, since, in practice, consultation with local government will continue to take place as it does now as a matter of course, or, in the case of the timing of the report, undesirable, since they may limit our ability to use the most up-to-date data for calculations. I am sure that that is not what the Committee desires.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his reply and all noble Lords who have spoken in this short debate. Nearly every one who spoke was sympathetic to and in agreement with the thrust of these amendments. Indeed, that was the tenor of the noble Lord’s comments. I understood from what he said—it seems to be on the record and we will read it in Hansard tomorrow—that there is the clear intention to continue to consult with local government on a timely basis. That is very important.
We have to reflect a bit on the issue around getting that information available in November, but the noble Lord, Lord True, and the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, made some very powerful points in support of the amendment—in particular, the sooner you know what your resources are, the better able you are to deal with those who are looking to you for support and engagement.
I agree with my noble friend Lord Beecham, as ever, that there are other interested groups here, particularly concerning the central share and how that is going to be dealt with. I think that the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, was right when he said that the Localism Act has basically changed the scene so far as this is concerned. I take a degree of comfort from the Minister’s response—particularly the commitment to make sure that the consultation continues.
I guess that we will have to see what the nature of the components is. We will be coming later to what is likely to be in a local government finance report, given that formula grants are going to be less important, if not disappear altogether. We will also be dealing with what is in the document to consult on. In the mean time, I thank the Minister for her response and beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, the Committee has made very good progress but I would be extremely grateful if we could consider this amendment. I do not think it will take very long and it would be advisable to take it.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
My Lords, I am happy with that and do not think it is going to take very long. I start with an apology for tabling these amendments just yesterday, but they arose out of the debate we had on Tuesday and I make no apology for returning to the issue of the local and central share, and what this entails. We accept entirely that the Government intend to use the central share for the purpose of local government in England, although, as defined, this does not have to mean actually paying it to local government. This is what the statement of intent promises. It is also clear that for the first two years of the scheme, revenue support grant will be made available to local authorities to keep them whole, because their local share of business rates will be below the control total set by the 2010 spending review.
This amendment looks beyond these years and requires revenue support grant to be paid in any year when the central share is positive. It is of course at this stage just by way of a probe, because it begs a lot of questions and we need a lot more detail to make it secure. However, it is designed to give the Government the chance to say how they are going to use the central share and on what basis. They must have some notion. What principles will be applied after 2014-15? Will its use be driven by a needs/resources approach or on some other basis? What is that basis?
I was going to have another go at a question I posed previously. I think it may have been dealt with in the letter I received from the noble Baroness—for which I thank her—just before Committee started. I have not yet had a chance to absorb it. I will perhaps reserve my powder on that particular issue but the substantive issue remains as to what that central share will be used for after those initial two years and on what basis will any use of it be determined.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I am extremely grateful for the forbearance of the Committee. This may be a convenient moment to adjourn until 3.30 pm on Tuesday 10 July.
Civil Aviation Bill
Earl Attlee Excerpts(12 years ago)
Grand CommitteeRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, for raising this important and sensitive issue. I fully agree with your Lordships that we need to ensure that passengers are treated with respect and dignity at all points during their journey through an airport.
I hope I can reassure your Lordships by explaining that the goal that the amendment is designed to achieve is already covered by the Bill. Airports are required by European and domestic regulations to undertake security checks on all passengers, and it is the responsibility of airports to ensure that their customers are treated with dignity and respect.
Clause 80 inserts new Sections 21H and 21I into the Aviation Security Act 1982. New Section 21I requires the CAA to provide such aviation security advice and assistance as it considers appropriate to the persons listed in its subsection (3), including the managers of aerodromes in the UK. In giving such advice and assistance, the CAA has to have regard to the purposes to which Part 2 of the Aviation Security Act 1982 applies, which are broadly the protection of civil aviation against acts of violence. Therefore, if the CAA considered it appropriate, having regard to the purposes to which Part 2 of the Aviation Security Act 1982 applies, it could provide advice and assistance on maintaining the dignity of passengers wearing religious clothing when subject to security checks.
I know that some passengers may worry about security checks and feel uncomfortable about being subjected to them—I certainly do—but, like my noble friend Lord Rotherwick and, I suspect, the whole Committee, I understand that such searches are essential if security is to be maintained in the face of a real and continuing threat from terrorist groups that seek to do us harm.
As I am sure your Lordships will know, each passenger departing from a UK airport undergoes standard security processes irrespective of their age, gender or ethnic background. These checks ensure that they are not carrying articles prohibited from the security-restricted area on to the aircraft. This principle will not change.
Security staff are trained to recognise that some passengers may have particular concerns about searches, particularly searches of some religious clothing, such as those from the Sikh community who wear turbans. The noble Lord, Lord Clinton-Davis, referred to Orthodox Jews.
A problem emerged in April 2010 when new EU regulations came into force that required a hand search of turbans to be carried out. Physical contact with the turban causes hurt and offence to Sikhs. As pointed out by the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, other European states might not be so sensitive to these issues. My right honourable friend the former Secretary of State acted swiftly and instructed airports to continue with the method used prior to April 2010, which mainly involved hand-held metal detectors, while consideration was given to how to resolve the concerns expressed by the Sikh community. After intensive work, a pilot project was put together in a very short time and with the assistance of the Sikh community. The noble Lord pointed out that there is good co-operation between all communities because we are all in it together.
The trial is now under way at almost all the UK’s airports, using a combination of explosive trace detection and hand-held metal detectors as an alternative to a hand search of the turban. The trial is going well and we have been keeping the European Commission up to date with the results. My right honourable friend the Minister of State for Aviation has written to Ministers around Europe to highlight the importance of the issue and to draw their attention to the trial.
We hope that the trial will provide a sound basis of evidence for the EU in deciding on whether it is possible to change the European rules on security to meet the concerns of Sikhs and to ensure that they operate in a culturally sensitive way. The Department for Transport submitted a report on the trial to the European Commission on 28 June. The trial delivered good results and is continuing for the remainder of the summer at least.
Lord Clinton-Davis
Would it not be very simple for people who are especially vulnerable to be searched in private—in other words, to go to an area where other people are not present?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, the noble Lord makes a good point. Passengers may request a private search. I am confident on that point, but perhaps it would be helpful if I wrote to the Committee in a little more detail on it.
The trial delivered good results and is continuing for the remainder of the summer at least. We are actively engaging with the EU with a view to continuing to conduct such searches in this manner. I hope that the Committee will agree that the matter is under control.
Lord Clinton-Davis
Would the Minister say that the discussions with the commissioner concerned were very positive, or otherwise?
Lord Clinton-Davis
I think there have been discussions between the Government and the Commission. Is the commissioner concerned on the Government’s side in this matter?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I am sure that the Commission is in a listening mode, because otherwise it could be storing up problems for itself in future.
Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for that response, which was encouraging. I am sure the noble Lord, Lord Rotherwick, will recognise that, given the advanced years of many of us, we have great difficulty going through airport security without the implied suggestion that we have a submachine gun in our belt. When our belt has been taken off, the gun must be somewhere else. Having had a hip replacement a few years ago, I go through agonies at airport control. We all have to pay that price. I do not think that any of us doubt that airport security is of the greatest significance, and we all realise that some privations are attendant on it. However, some practices need to be looked at very carefully.
The Minister is assiduous in writing to us when he feels that he has not made a point absolutely explicit in a reply. I do not think that he needs to write to us on the question asked by my noble friend Lord Clinton-Davis. Privacy will not solve the problem. The issue is not that something is being done in public; it is that someone is touching the turban. Therefore, if the same security process is followed in private as in public, the offence will be exactly the same.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I absolutely accept the point about touching the turban, but there may be some other perfectly reasonable reason why a passenger does not want to be searched in public. They may want to explain a medical condition, for instance, that it would be too embarrassing to discuss in public, but as soon as they went into a private room they would be able to explain the circumstances and have a thorough search.
Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, of course I know that the practice occurs; it is essential where people have enormous sensitivities that ought to be respected. However, the amendment is about Sikhs. I am merely indicating that for a Sikh, an offence conducted in private is no less an offence than if it were done in the public arena. Therefore, the issue is how we maintain our security and check the Sikh population effectively when they travel, without giving extreme offence by touching the turban.
I am grateful that the Minister indicated that we are making progress on tests that will obviate the need to touch the turban, so I hope that the problem will soon be resolved. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Rosser
My Lords, these are probing amendments to explore how the Government intend to ensure that there is no significant or damaging loss of staff with experience of relevant security issues when aviation security regulation functions are transferred from the Department for Transport to the Civil Aviation Authority.
As to the first amendment, Clause 82 refers only to the Secretary of State consulting the Civil Aviation Authority before making a transfer scheme to the CAA. Who else would the Secretary of State consult, particularly on the impact of such a transfer on individual employees who are directly affected or potentially directly affected? The second amendment requires the Secretary of State to review the impact of such transfers on the security functions of the CAA before making such a scheme, given that there does not appear to be a clear provision in the Bill, and proper assessment of the impact of such a transfer scheme on security and security functions must surely be a key responsibility of the Secretary of State before deciding whether to proceed.
It appears from the impact assessments for the legislation that the primary purpose of this switch of aviation security regulation functions from the Department for Transport to the CAA has been driven by financial considerations and the spending review, which may not be the most appropriate driving force for change when dealing with an issue of this nature—particularly when a highly successful security regime has been in operation since the tragic Lockerbie bombing.
The Transport Select Committee in the other place expressed concern that the decision to transfer aviation security regulation functions from the Department for Transport to the Civil Aviation Authority was included in the draft Bill at a late stage and was not subject to consultation. The committee also said that it was important that the CAA had sufficient security expertise to undertake its new role and that the Department for Transport and the CAA should investigate employment arrangements, possibly including secondments rather than transfers, precisely to avoid losing experience staff and expertise in the transfer of posts from the department to the CAA.
In Committee in the other place, the Transport Minister said that some 85 staff might be seconded rather than transferred, and no doubt the noble Earl will give an update on the present arrangements and intentions, the number of staff who will be transferred and seconded, and why being seconded would not be a better option for the staff as a whole. It would also be helpful if the noble Earl could say what steps are being taken to encourage staff affected to stay on in order to ensure that this transfer will not lead to loss of expertise in such a crucial part of our security provision and protection. I beg to move.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, let me begin with Amendment 52. The Department for Transport has already begun to engage with staff and their trade union representatives on the proposed transfer of staff from the DfT to the CAA. The department’s human resources unit has formally engaged with the Public and Commercial Services trade union and the Prospect trade union on matters relating to the proposed transfer of posts and post holders to the CAA.
There have been briefing events for staff, including a joint event with the CAA on 31 January, and staff are kept informed with regular written and oral updates. We will engage with staff and their trade union representatives as we develop the transfer arrangements over the coming months until the planned transfer in spring 2014.
Engagement with staff is vital, not least because we want to ensure that as many staff as possible transfer to the CAA, taking their skills and experience with them. A particular concern of the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, is that we do not lose this valuable expertise. We have no intention of doing anything that would cause unnecessary losses. We will work to provide as much visibility and clarity as possible about the transfer, but we cannot answer all the questions yet. The Government believe that there is no need to amend the Bill to achieve something that is already happening, so I hope that the noble Lord will withdraw Amendment 52 in due course.
Lord Soley
Will the noble Lord clarify a point? Much of the concern is about staff morale. I know that this is not directly connected, but morale was a major factor in what happened with the Immigration Service. If this is not handled carefully, staff morale will go down and they will either work to rule—literally—to ensure that they are not guilty of making any mistakes, or they will just feel demoralised. I know that this is a probing amendment, which I am sure has been taken into account, but I have no doubt in my mind that the security issue is so important that staff morale is equally critical.
Earl Attlee
I remind noble Lords that we are in Committee, so we can speak as many times as we like. The noble Lord is absolutely right that staff morale in any organisation is key. This is of course a leadership issue, particularly for the senior personnel at the CAA. It must be remembered that some staff do not work in fixed locations; some of the staff who ensure that security is carried out properly are fairly mobile. But I accept that morale is an absolutely key issue.
Earl Attlee
It is indeed, my Lords. If we thought that we would lose a large number—or a majority—of the experienced staff due to this change, we would not do it. However, I see no reason why aviation security specialists who currently work for the DfT would not be equally happy working for the CAA. If they were being invited to work in the private sector, that could be much more of an issue. However, they will be transferring from one respected government department to another respected organisation.
Lord Rosser
I thank the Minister for his reply. I also thank my noble friends Lord Soley and Lord Clinton-Davis for their helpful contributions. The Minister said, I believe, that the driving force on the financial side was the principle that the user pays. Surely when we talk about aviation security regulation the principle that the user pays should not take precedence over the principle that we want the most effective security regulation arrangements.
I have not yet heard the Minister or anyone else argue that the current arrangements, which we have had for a number of years, are not highly successful and effective, as they are recognised to be. Frankly, if the real reason for this change is financial—namely, that the user pays—and is not based on improving the present arrangements for aviation security regulation, I suggest that the Government have got wrong the driving force for the change. Certainly I have not heard from the Minister any criticism of the current arrangements, any indication of how they have failed or any indication of how they will be made more successful and more efficient by the proposed change.
The Minister said that we should not go into detail about numbers. However, as I said, in Committee in the other place the Transport Minister referred to numbers and said that 80 staff might be seconded rather than transferred. I made reference to the view that was expressed that it might be better if staff were seconded rather than transferred.
Lord Rosser
I thank my noble friend for that point. Perhaps the Minister will comment on it in a moment.
I asked whether the Minister could give an update on how many staff will be transferred and how many will be seconded and say why secondment would not be a better option for staff generally. I am not asking him to go into the details of discussions that are taking place, but he might be able to respond to those particular points. Is the Minister willing to do so before I withdraw the amendments? I intend to withdraw them—as I said, they are probing amendments.
Earl Attlee
The Government believe that industry will benefit from the efficiencies that could be gained from having aviation security and safety regulation in one place. The CAA has potentially valuable experience of safety management systems that are designed to manage risks as effectively as possible. We think that this experience, coupled with the skills and experience of the DfT staff, could bring real benefit to how we regulate aviation security in the UK. That move would also mean that the principle that the user pays is applied to aviation security in the same way as it is applied to aviation safety.
Charging the industry for the regulation of aviation security will align it with the vast majority of other forms of regulation, including the CAA’s regulation of aviation safety. The aviation industry already meets the costs of providing security at close to £1 billion per annum, so the cost of regulation at £4.8 million per annum is a small addition that could be neutralised by efficiency savings arising from the reform package.
The noble Lord asked me about secondments, which the PCS trade union also raised in its evidence to the Public Bill Committee in the House of Commons. We can look at how secondments might be used as we develop our plans for the transfer. However, we consider that seconding DfT staff to the CAA instead of transferring them is unlikely to help to ensure that experienced staff remain with the CAA when the secondments end.
Lord Clinton-Davis
Will the noble Lord respond to my suggestion that this provision should be looked at regularly?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I am sure that when they make a change, all Governments consider whether they have done the right thing. I am not sure about a formal review, but all Ministers look back to make sure that the changes that they have implemented are working.
Lord Rosser
I thank the Minister for the further information that he has given. I am sure that he will not be entirely surprised when I say that I still have the impression that this one is financially driven rather than driven by any real belief that the aviation security regulation function will somehow be carried out more effectively through the arrangements that the Government are proposing than they are at present. However, I have expressed my views on this and the Minister has replied on behalf of the Government. I also said that these were probing amendments, and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Earl Attlee
I welcome these amendments, which enable us to consider an outcomes-focused, risk-based regime. I hope in responding to them to be able to allay the concerns of the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham. However, I am not convinced that the amendment is related to the previous one, which concerned the important matter of DfT staff being looked after on transfer. They are separate issues.
The DfT has consulted on proposals to modernise the regulatory regime for aviation security. They are designed to promote innovation and efficiency, to ensure the best possible passenger experience and to bring the regime into line with better-regulation principles. The Government’s priority at all times is to ensure high levels of aviation security in the UK. We simply cannot afford a failure.
The proposed new approach is intended to give operators greater flexibility and responsibility to design security processes that deliver specified security outcomes, with greater emphasis placed on the needs of their passengers. A similar approach has been taken in aviation safety regulation.
Modernisation would be achieved by introducing the use of security management systems, or SeMS, by industry and a regulatory regime that is more outcomes-focused and risk-based—the so-called OFRB. SeMS is a systematic approach to managing and embedding security in the day-to-day activities of an organisation. We are starting with a series of pilots in which industry operators will develop the SeMS approach and, in so doing, create an enhanced internal security culture. Once these pilots have been concluded and we are satisfied that the SeMS framework is sufficiently robust, we shall look to roll it out generally across the industry. This will provide a sound basis for the design and development of the OFRB regime.
The proposed reforms represent a significant change in the approach to the regulation of aviation security both for the industry and the regulator. We have therefore decided to take an incremental approach to reform to ensure that the UK’s high level of aviation security is maintained at all times. This incremental approach also aligns well with the Government’s intention to embed in industry a culture of continuous improvement of the UK’s aviation security regime, as has been the case for aviation safety.
Many organisations have commented that the full benefits of OFRB—in particular, flexibility for operators in the design of security processes—require changes to the highly prescriptive European legislation, which specifies common basic standards for aviation security. We will use the SeMS pilots to build the evidence base necessary to engage with our European partners and to make the case for change. This will take some time.
I say in answer to the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, that the move to OFRB will not be a single big change but a continuing one—it will not be sprung on stakeholders. This is also necessary because some 1,000 industry entities in the UK are directed to implement aviation security measures, and it would not be feasible or sensible for them all to move to OFRB at once.
The Secretary of State intends to take forward the reformed approach to aviation security regulation under powers in Part 2 of the Aviation Security Act 1982 by giving directions to industry operators, such as airports. In passing Part 2 of the 1982 Act, Parliament has granted the Secretary of State a power to give directions to industry for the purpose of protecting civil aviation against acts of violence. Successive Transport Secretaries, irrespective of party, have made aviation security directions that they consider necessary to protect the security of civil aviation. The Secretary of State’s direction-making powers set out in Part 2 of the 1982 Act do not require the approval of Parliament before they can come into force.
Introducing a new layer of legislative approval for the introduction of an OFRB aviation security regime could risk damaging our ability to respond swiftly to implement necessary changes to aviation security in the face of continuing and evolving threats. These amendments would mean that if the response to a new threat affected the framework of the outcomes-focused, risk-based regime, an order would be required that would be subject to the approval of both Houses. This would inevitably take time, even with the most efficient business managers in charge of Parliament’s agenda. Your Lordships will know that it is sometimes necessary to make changes very quickly to respond to new threats, in some cases within a matter of hours.
For example, swift action, including an immediate ban on liquids, had to be taken in response to the liquid bomb plot. The plot was uncovered during the Summer Recess, and if it had been necessary to recall Parliament and have these matters debated by both Houses, it would have been impossible to respond effectively. I am sure that your Lordships will recall the printer bomb plot in October 2010, when it was necessary to place emergency restrictions on air cargo. If my right honourable friend the former Secretary of State had not been able to act quickly to ban certain consignments, we could have been left exposed to similar attacks.
Noble Lords will have seen the Written Ministerial Statement made by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State on the 26 June about the reform of the aviation security regulatory regime and the Government’s response to the preceding consultation. I can assure your Lordships that the Government will continue to keep Parliament informed as we develop, pilot and implement the new regime over the coming years. However, I hope the Committee will agree that Amendments 54 and 75 would not only be impractical but could have a damaging impact on our ability to keep passengers secure. Therefore, I urge the noble Lord to withdraw or not to move the amendments.
Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, I have a bone of contention with the Minister. I am not prepared to accept what he said about the new measures necessary to deal with the threat of the liquid bombs. Clearly effective action was taken and we all know the constraints. I can even remember the size of the cardboard box that Heathrow kindly provided for me to ensure that the baggage that I was taking to the cabin could be measured accurately. It was the least precise device that I have ever seen. Nevertheless, you cannot expect technology to appear at every point in an airport. I am not prepared to have that emergency response to a clearly individual, defined threat compared with a whole schematic change to the concept of airport security.
After all, it is the Minister who is dressing up the scheme in excellent technical language. It is he who has to take responsibility for the fact that the scheme arrived on the scene somewhat late and was not subject to scrutiny before it appeared in the legislation. It is the Minister who has to bear the responsibility for the fact that the most apparent thing to the industry about the scheme was that the costs were being transferred. We all know the driver for that, so he will not mind if there is an element of suspicion in the Committee that the issue that drives the scheme is the transfer of costs rather than the more successful implementation of a security regime.
Earl Attlee
I would not want to leave the noble Lord upset. However, first, I remind the Committee that my right honourable friend the Secretary of State retains responsibility for aviation security. None of this changes that. In addition, I would like to remind the Committee of one thing. If we were to adopt the noble Lord’s amendment, it could have unintended consequences. We might think that it would be fine; but when we wanted to change something quickly, we would come up against that most ancient law, the law of unintended consequences. We need to be extremely cautious, therefore, before we think about tying the hands of the Secretary of State and removing that flexibility that she has to give the necessary directions in respect of aviation security.
Lord Davies of Oldham
I would be the last person to want to see a reduction in the Secretary of State’s powers in this very important area, and I am not suggesting that Parliament will set out to destroy the security scheme for the aviation industry. Responsible Members of Parliament would do no such thing, of course. What we are looking for is a clearer evaluation than that presently to hand of the merits of this approach, apart from cost savings for the department. The industry will accept this grudgingly, because the costs are put upon it. It may be entirely proper that it should bear the cost. However, one would have thought that this would be presented to the industry with greater consultation than it has had.
As for Parliament, it is clear that we are all taking a great deal from the Minister on faith. I have no doubt that the concept is excellent, if it is ever clearly explained to me. However, the Minister has not taken the opportunity on this occasion to explain its merits over what we have at the present time. If he had said, “Of course, I can’t do that, because that would imply that I am giving some comparative analysis that would give information to hostile elements”, I would probably have taken that in my stride, but he did not say that.
Earl Attlee
Certainly not—that would be a weak argument. I can suggest, however, that if the noble Lord would like, I can organise a briefing between him and the officials who are handling this issue. We can go into it in greater detail and ensure that both of us are happy about it.
Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, the Minister is generous with letters that whizz round after Committee proceedings, and he is always generous in his replies, although they do not always meet the exact points. I am probably obliged to take him up on his offer of what will be an enormously illuminating occasion. However, I am not clear whether it will be of any use to other Members of the Committee, or to other Members of either House of Parliament, to know that the opposition spokesman will be a bit wiser in a few days than he is at present. The noble Lord might think that that suffices, but I do not. However, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Soley
I go further than the noble Lord in commending the noble Lord, Lord Davies, on the skill with which he presented this amendment. He is right in principle, but the reason for my slightly mischievous intervention is my concern that one always finds provisions such as this being put into aviation Bills and not into train or road transport Bills. The reason for my concern is not that I am for or against the aviation industry, which after many years of kicking and prodding from people such as me has begun to get its act together on presenting its case on climate change and emissions, but that such provisions lead people to believe that you cannot fly but that you can travel as much as you like by road or rail, which is untrue.
I took great issue a few years back with front-page adverts from rail companies about high-speed rail links, saying, “Travel by train and zero emissions”. I thought, “Fantastic! Energy direct from the sun! We have no power stations using coal, oil, gas or nuclear fuel; we just direct it from the sun”. I pick up wonderful magazines, such as that of the RSPB, of which I am very fond, which tell me that we have to stop building airports and flying, and that it is really wicked. I then turn to the back pages and find between 10 and 20 adverts telling me to fly off to exotic places where I can see wonderful birds that are about to be wiped out by climate change. That is the cause of my slightly mischievous intervention on my noble friend’s amendment.
When we talk about building high-speed rail, which I am greatly in favour of, we are talking about producing concrete for a couple of thousand miles of track. To produce one tonne of concrete requires the production of one tonne of CO2—to knock off 10 or 20 minutes of the journey time to Birmingham. We cannot make the case on climate change. We can make it on other grounds and do lots of other things on climate change. I can tell the right reverend Prelate, who made a useful speech, that one piece of good news for him is that many airlines, including BA, Virgin and Air New Zealand, are now flying with a mix of fuels in their tank that includes algae and other environmentally friendly fuels. Algae have a good future. They will never be an entire replacement—they will probably be about 20%—but they are making a difference.
Returning to the amendment, before I get pulled up, the principle is right but my preferred way to address this is that every transport form, road rail or air, ought to be instructed clearly to drive down emissions. That is what matters. I do not object to the amendment in principle, but it has to apply to rail stations and bus stations as well. If I stand in King’s Cross or Euston, I know that it is not oxygen that is being belched out of the train engines or the taxis with their engines running waiting to pick up people; it is CO2. I would prefer that we said that we should drive down emissions across the board. For the past 20 or 30 years, I have never doubted the dangers of climate change—I have written about it from time to time—but we have to be realistic about it. At the moment, the way in which we measure it is not terribly accurate and has a long way to go. All forms of transport—rail, road, air and anything else—should drive down emissions. If we want to put up something to say what we think emissions are in airports, I have no problem with that in principle; I would just extend it to other areas.
Earl Attlee
I will begin with Amendment 57, because it raises different issues from the other two amendments. I am aware, however, that similarly worded amendments were tabled in Committee in the House of Commons and defeated in a Division.
Before turning to the detailed points made by your Lordships, it is important that I emphasise the function of the clause that the amendment would alter. Clause 83 gives the CAA a new and important statutory role in promoting better public information about the aviation industry’s performance. This is intended to improve choice in the market and address what economists call asymmetric information, in that passengers do not always have the information they need to compare the services on offer.
Giving consumers more information on service quality provided by airports and airlines will help to ensure that markets deliver consumer benefits in practice. These issues fall fairly and squarely within the remit that Clause 83 would give to the CAA. Indeed, these may well be issues that the CAA will wish to focus on, though I would not wish to pre-empt its consideration and consultation on the use of these functions.
In our previous sitting, we had a good debate about immigration and baggage handling, but no noble Lord has raised those issues today, so I shall not speak about them unless a noble Lord would like me to.
On Amendments 57 and 60, it is important to emphasise the importance of the clauses that the amendments would alter. I fully agree about the benefits that can be gained by giving passengers clearer and better information about the environmental impact of their travel choices, including the carbon impact. We are committed to ensuring that the transport sector plays a full part in delivering the emissions reductions needed to meet our Climate Change Act targets. The Government have already set stretching, legally binding carbon budgets which will see a 50% reduction in emissions by 2025, compared to 1990 levels, on a path towards an 80% reduction by 2050.
On 1 December, the Government published the Carbon Plan, setting out how we will meet the UK’s legally binding carbon reduction targets over the next two decades and beyond. The Carbon Plan details our ambitious plans to deliver major reductions in carbon emissions from the transport sector and from other sectors over the coming decades. It sets out a radical vision for the almost complete decarbonisation of cars and vans by 2050.
Lord Bradshaw
Perhaps I may add my congratulations to the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, on what he has said. I do not know whether the amendment is acceptable in this form, but I look forward to seeing something at Report stage that will safeguard the interests of consumers.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, the amendment addresses two concerns, both of which I share. I can recall very well the debate initiated by the noble Lord, Lord Mitchell, on precisely these issues, and I hope that I gave a positive response at the time. One of the issues is the ability of the CAA to publish comparable information on air transport service pricing, and the other is that of showing the full costs of travel and surcharges. In responding, I will show that the first is already provided for in the Bill and that the second is being addressed in other ways.
The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, is right to say that the CAA should have a role. Clause 83 is widely drawn and thus gives the CAA a new and important statutory role in promoting better public information about the aviation industry’s performance. It imposes a duty on the authority either to publish, or to arrange for the aviation sector to publish, consumer information and advice that it considers appropriate to help people compare aviation prices and services. The judgment of what is appropriate will be a matter for the regulator, which is required to prepare and consult on a statement of its policy with regard to the use of these functions. The information that Clause 83 requires the CAA to publish, if it considers that appropriate, is defined in a way that includes price comparison data, and the proposed amendment will not therefore add anything to what the CAA will be able to do. For that reason, the amendment is not necessary, and the Government oppose it.
In the debate on Second Reading, the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, expressed his concerns about the full costs of travel and surcharges. I will therefore set out what the Government are doing to address the issue. On the full cost of travel, consumers are already protected throughout the EU by Article 23 of EU Regulation 1008/2008, which is sometimes referred to as the ticket transparency regulation. It requires airlines to display at all times their prices inclusive of all unavoidable and foreseeable taxes, fees and charges. It also requires any optional services such as checked baggage or priority boarding to be offered on an opt-in basis only, and that the prices for these optional extras are clearly and unambiguously displayed at the start of the booking process. In addition to displaying fully inclusive prices, the regulation requires a breakdown of the price into the fare and any taxes, charges, surcharges and fees where these are added. These services should be displayed clearly and unambiguously at the start of the booking process. These requirements are designed to ensure that consumers are able to compare the price of flights across a number of airlines and to ensure that they select only the optional extras they require.
Lord Soley
I am slightly worried about the direction of travel of the Minister’s comments. It is one thing to say that they must publish information under Article 23; it is another to say that they are right up front so that a passenger knows. I do not believe that Ryanair has been giving true and full information to people in a way that enables them to assess the full cost, rather than flicking over it in the small print—although I accept that the print will not necessarily be that small. I would be happier if there were some proactive way to intervene—for the CAA, or whoever, to look at it and say, “This is utterly unacceptable and has to stop”. As far as I know—I have not tried it myself recently but this is what I have been told by passengers recently—this is still happening with Ryanair.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I am sure that many noble Lords share the noble Lord’s view of that airline but, on the issue of publication, it is up to the CAA to determine what to publish, taking into consideration the results of the consultation.
On the second issue of payment surcharges, like the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, I share consumers’ concerns about the high level of payment surcharges applied by some companies and that often people are not aware of the level of these charges until almost at the end of the booking process. That makes it difficult to compare prices and shop around for a good deal. It is not right that a business should try to hide the true cost of its services by implying that its prices are made up of elements beyond its control when they are not.
Your Lordships will be aware that consumers are already protected against misleading pricing under the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations. Additionally, on 23 December 2011 the Government announced our intention to consult on implementing the payment surcharges provision of the consumer rights directive ahead of the June 2014 deadline. We intend to issue a consultation in the summer to seek views on the timing of implementation and other details on how the provision should be applied. Responses to the consultation will inform our decision on timing and our guidance to businesses.
I hope that it is clear from what I have said that the intent of the amendment is already implicit in the primary duty and that effective mechanisms are already in place to secure the result intended. Given that, I hope that at the appropriate time the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Rosser
I thank the Minister for his reply, which I thought was going to be even more helpful than it proved to be, although I do not question his desire for transparency to be brought into charges and surcharges levied on air transport users.
I thought I heard the Minister say—when or shortly after he referred to the article under EU regulations—that the Civil Aviation Authority was of the view that airlines were complying with the regulation. If I understood correctly what the Minister said, and if the CAA is basically happy with the current situation, my only comment is that Clause 83(1), with its requirement for the CAA to publish or arrange for publication of information to assist users of air transport services, will not have any great force if the CAA considers that the situation is already satisfactory in relation to making the charges and surcharges known.
However, the extremely helpful contributions of my noble friend Lord Soley and the noble Lords, Lord Rotherwick and Lord Bradshaw, indicated that the current situation is not satisfactory and that charges are not easily and readily available to users of air transport services. For that reason, I feel somewhat concerned by the nature of the Minister’s reply. I get the feeling that the Civil Aviation Authority thinks that, in essence, the situation at the current time is satisfactory. Clearly, from the comments made in this debate, and from reports in the newspapers of individuals who have fallen foul of the surcharges, it is not. If the Government do not like the wording of the amendment, perhaps they will go away and produce wording that they think is appropriate. It is a test of how determined they are to be on the side of users of air transport services.
The Minister may argue that the issues are covered by this or that legislation or by something in the Bill, but Clause 83(1) makes no reference to charges or surcharges. Clearly there is still a problem here. This is an opportunity for the Government to show their determination to be on the side of the users of air transport services, who have suffered from these additional charges. The Government can show that by making it even more explicit than they believe it to be in the Bill that it is a duty and a responsibility of the Civil Aviation Authority to make sure that the full cost of travel for users of air transport services, including all relevant surcharges that such users will be expected to pay, is available through CAA channels or directives. The CAA would be regarded as an impartial and objective body that would give reliable information rather than information that might be open to more than one interpretation.
I beg the Minister to think again about this. The issue is about making information clear and stopping people finding additional charges that they did not expect. It ought to be possible—I argue that it is necessary—to make sure that the Civil Aviation Authority, with its powers under the Bill, should provide this service for air transport users. The Government should make it very clear in the Bill that that is part of the CAA’s role and that this is the kind of information that it should provide in a clear, objective and impartial form that is easily available to those who want to use air transport services. This is about the importance that the Government attach to highlighting this problem and dealing with it.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I reiterate to the Committee that the Government accept that there is a problem. We are determined to deal with it but we need to do so in the right way. The noble Lord asked me about what I said about Article 23. Perhaps it is worth carefully going over it because it was carefully drafted. The CAA has been working with airlines to ensure compliance with this requirement and considers that the airlines that it worked with are now compliant with Article 23. That implies that the airlines that it did not work with are not compliant.
Lord Soley
That is the point: some of them are not. I could name Ryanair, but there are others too. Some of this is down to the psychological trick where, as you go through your booking form, usually on a computer, you tick the “something extra”. Each one on its own seems small; you get to the position where you enter your card number and book the flight; you say, “All right, I will go ahead”; and then you add it all up afterwards and it is painful. My noble friend Lord Rosser is right: we need to get much tougher on this.
I have not looked at Article 23. I will do so and I am grateful to the Minister for drawing it to our attention, but I have a strong feeling that unless there is a tough ruling on this we will not get what we want, or not for a very long time.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord’s analysis. However, it is open to and up to the CAA to determine how it will publicise the situation. It may choose to report on the headline price of a ticket offered by an airline and then say, “But just before you click, you will find out that it is three times more expensive”. It is a matter for the CAA to say how it is going to do this.
It may be helpful if I say what the CAA is already doing in this area. The CAA has researched the fees and charges of the top 24 airlines operating from the UK, including the cost of paying by credit card, booking an assigned seat and taking various weights of hold luggage, and has published a comparison table. This table provides consumers shopping around with the ability to see what charges they might face, and the ability to use that information to help them decide which airline to travel with, based on their individual needs. The CAA has also recently updated all the information and advice available to passengers through its website, in order to give pre-shopping advice as well as advice on resolving travel problems.
I am aware that I myself have never thought of looking at the CAA’s website when considering purchasing an airline ticket. Perhaps there is a lack of knowledge among consumers that this information is available.
Lord Soley
I do not think that the Minister is alone in not looking at the CAA website before booking his ticket; that is fairly common for most people. It is clear that the CAA is hearing this debate now. Could we ask it, through the Minister, to report to him on what it is doing so that he can let the Committee know? It is the sleight of hand by some of these airlines that needs to be addressed. As a Member of this House, I would like a very clear response from the CAA about what it is going to do because the situation is unsatisfactory.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I am fairly confident that the CAA will be listening very carefully to what the Committee has to say.
Lord Trefgarne
I apologise for not being here earlier. I hope that I am in order in asking the Minister one question arising from Clause 83(1) on the reference to civil airports and all the divisions of the clause that relate to them. He will be aware that some military airports accept civil flights. What will be the position in that case?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, my noble friend has questioned whether Clause 83 should stand part of the Bill without having given notice on the Marshalled List. That does not put me in a very good position to answer his question. However, I am very happy to write to him.
Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, like my noble friend Lord Rotherwick and, I think, my noble friend Lord Goschen, who is not in his place, I was much disappointed by the Minister’s replies to amendments about civil aviation earlier in our consideration of the Bill the other day. I hope that he will be a bit more forthcoming in response to the latest amendment from my noble friend, which has my strong support.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I thank my noble friend for tabling the amendment. We had an informed debate about general and business aviation on the first day of Committee, and I committed to meeting my noble friend Lord Rotherwick and his team to discuss the interests of general and business aviation further. I am sorry that my noble friends were disappointed by my response on that occasion.
The proposed new clause seeks to replicate the information publishing requirements being imposed on the Civil Aviation Authority by Clause 83. However, the Bill already covers general and business aviation interests where the flights include passengers, cargo or both. So, for example, where a corporate flight is carrying business passengers, the proposed duty under Clause 83 will extend to these situations because the passengers comprise users of air transport services. In these cases, the CAA functions will allow it to correct the asymmetric information market failure that I alluded to when we debated Clause 83 in all instances where there are users of air transport services.
The Bill does not include either the part of general aviation that is for non-commercial leisure use or the part that comprises commercial services that do not involve the carriage of cargo or passengers. Examples of these are crop spraying, flight training and surveying—I suspect that that is a concern of my noble friend. The amendment extends a duty to publish information beyond passengers and cargo. However, the market for general aviation is more transparent than that for the ordinary consumer. General aviation users comprise trained and licensed pilots with ready access to networks and sources of information. Comprehensive information on what facilities are available to pilots at each UK-licensed airport and airfield is already freely available online from, for example, the UKGA website. Much more information is also available through published flight guides or from the relevant aerodromes.
A further duty on the CAA, as the amendment proposes, to take into account the reasonable interests of general and business aviation is therefore unlikely to make a material difference to the information that is available to those airport service users. Against that background, we do not think it appropriate to give specific prominence to the interests of general and business aviation or, indeed, to any other specific sector. Moreover, we consider that such a duty would impose an unreasonable financial burden on the CAA and the aviation industry. The burden would fall either on the aviation industry generally, which would not be equitable, or on the general aviation community, which as I have explained has access to the information that it needs. For these reasons, I hope that my noble friend will consider withdrawing his amendment.
Lord Rotherwick
My Lords, I thank my noble friend for his response and my noble friend Lord Trefgarne for his support. I have listened carefully to what the Minister said, but I think I will need to read it as well. The overall principle that I am trying to establish is that the CAA should have more regard to championing the cause of general and business aviation. At present, the sector does not feel that it has a champion to look after it, and this is but a small area in which it has concerns. However, I thank my noble friend once again for his kind words and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Clinton-Davis
My noble friend has addressed a very important issue. I speak as someone who is partially disabled. Some sort of annual report is desirable. I am not sure whether it has to be dealt with in legislation, but there ought to be a clear obligation to ensure that the requirement is enforced. I cannot understand why there should be any opposition to that. I do not care whether there is a requirement in law, but there ought to be an understanding, if there is not a requirement in law, that that should be invoked.
People who are disabled or have reduced mobility are highly important passengers. At the moment, their requirements are not properly met. Therefore the proposition advanced in the amendment ought to be implemented forthwith. Again, disabled and reduced mobility passengers are vital and should not be overlooked. I hope that the Minister will properly address the important point made by my noble friend Lord Rosser.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, of course the Government agree that it is important that airlines and airports are sensitive to the needs of disabled people and comply with the European regulation which has been enacted to protect the interests of people with disabilities. The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, has asked a specific question about how the CAA balances its duties under Clause 1 with the needs of disabled passengers. The answer is that the CAA has to strike a balance. The reason for that is that disabled passengers are also users of air transport services, so they need to be taken into consideration.
Unfortunately, however, I cannot support the amendment for several reasons. I must highlight concern about how it would work in practice: my first concern is practical. The amendment is drafted in such a way as to put the obligation to produce an annual report jointly on the Secretary of State and the Civil Aviation Authority. I have significant doubt about linking together the regulator and the Secretary of State in that way. The aviation regulator and the national enforcement body for European aviation consumer legislation is separate from the Secretary of State in respect of ensuring compliance with EU law, and the amendment could be seen to compromise the CAA’s independence in that role.
The second reason why I cannot support the amendment is that effective mechanisms are already in place to secure the commendable result intended. I say in answer to the noble Lords, Lord Rosser and Lord Clinton-Davis that the CAA already publishes an annual report and corporate plan and makes a considerable amount of consumer information available on its website. An extra annual report on a specific area of legislation, on top of those more wide-ranging reports, would be disproportionate. The CAA is already committed to the principles of better regulation and aims to be as transparent as possible in all its work, including compliance with and enforcement of consumer protection legislation.
The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, asked about the future of the Disabled Persons Transport Advisory Committee. The Government have gone out to public consultation on the future of the DPTAC. The consultation closes in September. The CAA continues to develop its capacity to help consumers and has advanced the setting-up of a new consumer advisory panel to act as a critical friend of the regulator as it moves forward in putting consumers at the heart of its regulatory efforts.
Lord Clinton-Davis
The noble Lord explained that there was an obligation on the CAA to do something like this. Do ordinary consumers have the ability to understand the obligations of the CAA at present? That is all-important; I am not sure that they have.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, the noble Lord makes an interesting point. In a debate on an earlier amendment I admitted that I had not looked at the information that the CAA published on issues such as fares. I also admit that I have never looked at the CAA website, and I suspect that most passengers never look at it. However, several organisations look after the needs of disabled people, and I have no doubt that they will look very closely at all the information that is published by the CAA.
Lord Clinton-Davis
That is not good enough. There is an obligation on everyone in this Committee to understand precisely how disabled people, or those with reduced mobility, are protected. It is absolutely important.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, if the noble Lord will let me finish my speech, he may gain a better understanding. Also, I will send him more details by post.
Noble Lords will know that the CAA announced in April that the chair of the new panel would be Keith Richards. Mr Richards has considerable experience of disabled air passenger issues, having been chair of the aviation working group at the Disabled Persons Transport Advisory Committee for many years, as well as a former head of consumer affairs at the Association of British Travel Agents. The CAA and the new panel chair will need time to develop a relationship, but, it would not be unreasonable to suppose that the experience of disabled passengers at airports and on planes will be of considerable interest to the new chair. I suggest that it would be better to allow the new CAA consumer panel to have the space to develop how it will go about its work, and how best to support and inform passengers, than to impose an obligation on it in the way suggested by the noble Lord’s amendment. In view of this, I hope that the noble Lord will withdraw his amendment in due course.
Lord Rosser
I thank the Minister for his response, and I thank my noble friend Lord Clinton-Davis for his very helpful contribution. I do not see the amendment, as the Minister implied with his last comment that he sees it, as imposing a great burden in future on the CAA. If part of the problem is that the Secretary of State is also involved and the Minister does not think that appropriate, that issue could be addressed in a further amendment at a later stage.
The Minister did not address the enhanced, more important and more influential role that the CAA will surely have under the Bill, which gives it additional responsibilities and lays on it a general duty to carry out its functions in a way that will further the interests of users of air transport services. Simply to say that it already produces a report perhaps does not do justice to the enhanced role and greater importance and influence of the CAA that appears to be provided for in this legislation.
Lord Rosser
I thank the noble Lord for that contribution. If the Minister had stood up and said that—unless he is going to say that such a passage is already in the annual report from the CAA, in which case I suspect that it would need to be expanded in view of its enhanced role—I might well have felt that it was a move in the direction of the amendment. My concern is not so much about whether the report is a separate document as about whether the issue is covered and addressed by the CAA. If it can address that properly and fully in an existing annual report, I am sure that that would go a long way towards meeting the point that I have made in the amendment.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, the noble Lord asked me about the difficult point of the CAA balancing the needs of different users. As I have already said, they are in the same group—that is, users of air transport services. However, there is nothing to prevent the CAA focusing on different groups of users in exercising its information duties. I will write to the noble Lord in greater and more carefully considered detail on these points. I can see that he is very interested in exactly how the legislation works. The matter is far too technical for me to be able to respond orally, and I am sure that it is much better handled in writing.
Lord Rosser
As I said, my main concern is not that there is a separate document but that the issue is covered. Can the Minister give assurances that in annual reports from the CAA—he has expressed his concern about the Secretary of State also being involved—the issues that we have been discussing can be addressed under the new powers that the CAA will have under the Bill?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I think it is much wiser for me to confine all that to my letter to the noble Lord.
Lord Rosser
I am happy to accept that, if the Minister will address the matter in his response. In view of that, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Earl Attlee
Earl Attlee
“(d) that a person (“P”) acting in the course of a business carried on by P does not in the United Kingdom facilitate the making available of flight accommodation by another person in circumstances in which one or more prescribed arrangements relating to payment apply, unless P meets the condition in subsection (1A).”
Earl Attlee
My Lords, the Air Travel Organisers’ Licensing (ATOL) scheme, which is run by the Civil Aviation Authority, has been effectively protecting holidaymakers from the insolvency of travel companies selling package holidays including a flight since the 1970s.
Last year, 18.5 million passengers were protected by the ATOL scheme, with 47,000 being repatriated and 146,000 receiving refunds when their travel companies became insolvent.
However, we need to modernise the scheme so that it better reflects the way that holidays are now bought and sold in today’s market, particularly with the increasing importance of the internet. For example, it has become increasingly difficult for consumers to know whether their holiday is a package holiday, and so protected under the ATOL scheme, or is comprised of individually sold elements that do not have full ATOL protection. The framework for businesses selling holidays including a flight could also benefit from being clearer and more consistent.
That is why on 30 April 2012, the Government introduced new ATOL regulations made under existing powers in the Civil Aviation Act 1982 to provide greater clarity for consumers about whether their holiday is protected by bringing flight-plus holidays sold by tour operators and travel agents into the scheme. Those are holidays which look like a package but which sit outside the legal definition of a package. From October, consumers will also receive an ATOL certificate whenever they purchase an ATOL-protected product confirming that their holiday is protected, increasing clarity about the scheme’s coverage.
Clause 94 would allow those reforms to go further by broadening the Secretary of State’s powers to make regulations under Section 71 of the Civil Aviation Act 1982 so that holidays sold by airlines could be brought into the ATOL scheme, as far as is consistent with EU law, as well as those arranged on what is called an agent-for-consumer basis.
The proposals were consulted on last summer. Bringing agent-for-consumer holidays into the ATOL scheme was strongly supported as a way of improving consumer clarity and ending a potential way for businesses to avoid the scheme. Bringing holidays sold by airlines into the scheme received mixed views. It was not supported by airlines, which argued that it would be disproportionate regulation. However, on balance, the Government decided that they should have the power to do that, because it could create a more consistent and coherent framework for businesses as well as further improving consumer clarity about the scheme’s scope. Should the clause become law, the Government would expect to consult stakeholders in 2013 on new draft regulations to give effect to these changes. The proposals were welcomed by both sides in discussion of the Bill in the House of Commons and in our debate at Second Reading.
While preparing for the introduction of the new ATOL regulations on 30 April, two circumstances were identified that might allow some businesses to avoid the ATOL scheme. Without addressing these, the objective of providing greater clarity for consumers and more consistent regulation for businesses could be compromised. It is not possible for these issues to be resolved through further secondary legislation, as the powers in Section 71 of the Civil Aviation Act 1982, even if amended by Clause 94, are not sufficient. For this reason, the Government have brought forward Amendments 63A to 63D. I shall deal first with Amendments 63A and 63B.
A model used by some businesses in arranging a flight-plus holiday is to facilitate the purchase of a flight; that is, purchasing a seat on a flight from an airline at the request of a consumer. By acting in this way, a business may not be covered by the current ATOL scheme and is not making available a seat on a flight by acting on behalf of the airline. The business’s way of trading may also not be that of an agent for the consumer, and so it would not be covered by the ATOL scheme if it were to be amended under the powers extended by Clause 94. However, it could be difficult for consumers to tell when the purchase of a holiday including a flight was being facilitated and sold outside the ATOL scheme, as the holiday purchase could be identical to those which are protected under the ATOL scheme. To reduce the risk of confusion for consumers and to ensure that the facilitating model does not provide a way for businesses to avoid the ATOL scheme, Amendments 63A and 63B would allow the Secretary of State to make regulations to require businesses that facilitate making available flight accommodation to have an ATOL licence. Although this may appear to be a broad power, it is important to note that it can be used only where a business makes or receives a payment in relation to the flight accommodation or facilitates the making or receiving of a payment.
I turn to Amendments 63C and 63D. The current ATOL regulation-making power in the Civil Aviation Act 1982 allows goods, services and other benefits such as hotel accommodation or car hire to be regulated when they are supplied in connection with a contract for a flight that is subject to the ATOL scheme. That is the basis for including flight-plus holidays in the ATOL scheme. However, some businesses could argue that as any hotel accommodation, for example, purchased by a consumer alongside the flight is supplied on an entirely separate contract from that for the flight, which might be clearly stated in their terms and conditions, the holiday is not subject to the ATOL scheme. To address this, Amendment 63C would allow future ATOL regulations to specify the circumstances where goods, services and other benefits purchased alongside a flight are to be regulated under the ATOL scheme rather than limiting them to where they applied in connection to the contract for the flight.
Finally, Amendment 63D is a consequential amendment to ensure that identical wording to that used in Amendment 63C is used in another part of Clause 94 concerned with goods, services and other benefits that are within the ATOL scheme. Subject to the passage of the Bill, the Government’s intention is to consult fully in 2013 with stakeholders on the potential use of the powers in Clause 94 as drafted. An impact assessment will also be produced as part of that consultation. Should the amendment to Clause 94 that I have outlined today become law, that consultation and the accompanying impact assessment will also include the use of the powers in the amendments.
To conclude, without these amendments there is a risk that the achievement of the Government's objectives for ATOL reform—to provide greater clarity for consumers about the scope of the scheme and a more consistent regulatory framework for business—may be compromised. The amendments are intended to ensure that those objectives can be achieved as envisaged. It is not the Government’s intention that that should lead to a significant extension of the ATOL scheme. I beg to move.
Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, the Minister is certainly correct in saying that the extension of the ATOL scheme contained in the Bill has won the support of both sides in the other House. We also indicated at Second Reading how much we approved of this extension of the ATOL scheme. We thoroughly endorse the main objective which the Minister is seeking to achieve and are delighted to see it in the Bill. I take it that the categories that are extended will receive the ATOL certificate in the same way as all others that are part of the scheme, so that consumers will know they are contained within the scheme under the new arrangements of Amendments 63A and 63B. I am making that assumption—if the Minister nods his assent, I am reassured on that front. That is excellent news.
On the other question, I understand the point that there is no attempt to greatly extend the boundary of the scheme while seeking to preserve protection in those specific cases. I hope that that boundary is easily maintained, because that is what is being put in the legislation. We all know that there are two categories of disappointed people. There are those who did not participate in the ATOL scheme and were never therefore covered, who are utterly dismayed when things go badly wrong. There is no event in one’s normal life much worse than a holiday going badly wrong. However, if anything, it is worse to think that you are covered when you are not. As long as there is clarity at the boundary about that, I am entirely satisfied with the amendments and am delighted to see them being proposed.
Earl Attlee
“(1D) The arrangements relating to payment that may be prescribed under subsection (1)(d) are any arrangements under which P makes or receives payment, or facilitates the making or receipt of payment by another person, in connection with the making available of the flight accommodation.””
Vehicles: Insurance
Earl Attlee Excerpts(12 years ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Earl Attlee
My Lords, 1.2 million vehicles are recorded as being uninsured. Our actions to reduce this are, first, the offence of keeping a vehicle without insurance; and, secondly, allowing insurers access to DVLA driver details on penalty points and disqualifications in order to reduce fraud. The Secretary of State recently hosted a cross-government summit with insurers on measures to reduce the cost of premiums, which would lessen the incentive to drive uninsured.
Baroness Oppenheim-Barnes
My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that reply. Is he aware that in France all motor vehicles have to carry a pink disc alongside their equivalent of our tax disc, with their insurance details obvious in the windscreens at all times and updated when required by law? Surely this is a simple way of assessment as other members of the public will notice cars that are not carrying a pink disc and any policeman or other enforcement officer passing by will know immediately that a car is not insured.
Earl Attlee
I thank my noble friend for a very sensible suggestion. However, under the new system of continuous enforcement insurance the vehicle keeper will have to insure the vehicle or declare it to be off the road by means of a Statutory Off Road Notice. If the keeper does neither, a fixed-penalty notice for £100 will be issued. This will strip out the softer evader, leaving a smaller group of more persistent evaders for the police to target on the road. Another little difficulty with my noble friend’s suggestion is, of course, that the insurance may have been cancelled due to non-payment of the premiums.
Baroness Scott of Needham Market
My Lords, the number of young people who have been found to be driving without insurance has halved in the past three years, which is very welcome, but the very high cost of insurance for young people is proving very difficult for many of them. What discussions are the Government having with the insurance industry to make life a little easier for young drivers?
Earl Attlee
My noble friend makes an extremely important point. On 2 May, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Transport hosted a cross-government insurance summit with the insurance industry to take stock of the action taken since the Prime Minister’s summit in February to reduce the cost of motor insurance. We are working closely with the industry to outline further measures being taken to reduce premiums.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
Will the Minister explain why, while the number of motor accidents has gone down, the number of personal insurance claims has gone up? That means that the cost of insurance has risen substantially. Did the summit that he has just referred to discuss this, what conclusions did it come to and what action has been taken as a result of its conclusions?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, we are working with the insurance industry to reduce the level of fraud. We are aware, for instance, that at 76%, the UK has twice the average percentage of whiplash claims as a proportion of personal injury claims. So we are well aware of the problem and we are working on it.
Lord Mawhinney
My Lords, will my noble friend explain why he believes that the French Government and, I believe, the Irish Government find having insurance discs next to tax discs on the windscreen perfectly acceptable when, presumably, French and Irish people might be subject to the same temptations which he uses as an argument not to have it in this country?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, as I gently pointed out to my noble friend Lady Oppenheim-Barnes, the problem with an insurance disc is that the insurance may have been cancelled due to non-payment. What is the use of having an insurance disc that can be cancelled?
Lord Campbell-Savours
The Minister has not answered the question he was asked. If it works abroad, why can it not work here?
Earl Attlee
We also have a much better system, which is continuous enforcement, and we will clamp down on those motorists who do not insure their vehicles.
Baroness Gardner of Parkes
Is the Minister aware that many people who come here from other European countries insure their vehicles there, bring them over here and then take them back again to buy very cheap insurance? If anyone has an accident here involving one of those vehicles, the claim is almost impossible to enforce. Is he aware of that and can anything be done about it?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I am not aware of the detail of what my noble friend is telling me. However, I will ask my officials about it. I would point out that the number of foreign vehicles operating in the UK is relatively small.
Lord Hughes of Woodside
My Lords, I believe the Minister said that there has been a summit with the insurance companies and that the Government were working closely with the insurance industry. Will he publish the conclusions of those summit meetings with a checklist of what the Government are doing about it?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I will write to the noble Lord with an update and place a copy in the Library.
Lord Roberts of Llandudno
My Lords, what conversations does the Minister have with other countries within Europe and with those outside to ensure that all the heavy trucks on UK roads are insured?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, we cannot use the DVLA database to work out whether a foreign truck is insured. It would be a matter of the truck driver producing his insurance paperwork, but I am not aware that there is a huge problem with commercial vehicles being uninsured. The much more serious problem is their mechanical state.
Lord Davies of Coity
My Lords, if there is some improvement as a result of what they do in Ireland and France, why do not we do something that will be an improvement on the current situation?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I have already explained my position on the insurance disc. I cannot understand why noble Lords find it so difficult to understand. A few weeks ago I went out with Hampshire police and the police officer, using his ANPR equipment, stopped a motorist because she was uninsured. The reason she had no insurance was that it was cancelled because she could not keep up the payments on it.
Local Government Finance Bill
Earl Attlee Excerpts(12 years ago)
Grand CommitteeRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Earl Attlee
My Lords, this may be a convenient moment to adjourn the Committee until 2 pm on Thursday 5 July.
Transport: Road Traffic
Earl Attlee Excerpts(12 years ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Sheldon
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what action they have taken to improve the flow of road traffic in the United Kingdom.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, the Government provide funding and guidance to local authorities to support them in managing congestion on the local road network, including reducing the impact of roadworks. We have made better regulations to allow pioneer lane-rental schemes, are consulting on plans for roadworks permit schemes, and are increasing roadworks overrun charges. On the strategic road network, measures are being introduced to shorten the length of time that motorways are closed following incidents.
Lord Sheldon
I thank the noble Earl for that very useful Answer. However, the improvement of road traffic is much limited by more than 90% of all passenger transport. When there are rounds of crossroads, they reduce crashes by more than 50%, and stop signs at intersections have also reduced crashes dramatically by more than 50%. The other means that the noble Earl has put forward are very useful, but can he suggest how we are going to handle all these problems?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I did not quite catch the proposal that the noble Lord was making. I think that he was talking about roundabouts as a means of reducing accidents. Roundabouts indeed reduce accidents because the collisions are less brutal and therefore any injuries are less serious, but they increase congestion a bit because the throughput is not as high as with a grade separated junction, which is even safer. In my initial Answer I talked about a range of measures to reduce congestion, which I know can be infuriating for all motorists.
Baroness Chalker of Wallasey
My Lords, can my noble friend persuade more boroughs to use lane rental than are currently doing so? Some are good at using lane rental; others are very limited in using it. In the past it has been a good way of speeding up repairs, thus reducing road congestion. Some activity needs to be taken with individual boroughs.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, my noble friend makes a good point. Through the Traffic Management Act 2004, all local authorities have a “network management duty” to secure,
“the expeditious movement of traffic”,
including pedestrians, on their highway network, and to facilitate the same on the networks of other authorities. Local authorities are required to appoint a traffic manager to oversee this obligation and must monitor their own performance, but my noble friend will understand that we also have the spirit of localism.
Lord Broers
Does the Minister agree that the Technology Strategy Board has made a wise decision in assigning one of the new catapults to transport? One of the main aims of that catapult will be to develop a comprehensive, UK-wide model for transport that will operate in real time and be able to react to emergency situations. I declare my interest as chair of the Transport Knowledge Transfer Network that led to this proposal.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, the noble Lord makes an important point about what we can achieve with technology. It is particularly important for the Highways Agency to be able to measure where congestion is and then to use its variable message signs to advise motorists to seek another route. In addition, although satnav navigation systems are in their infancy, we are starting to get the full benefit from them.
Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, is the Minister aware that during this past year the Mayor of London has pursued a smoothing traffic flow priority, which prioritises motorists over safety? Is he further aware that pedestrian deaths are up by 33% during this period and cyclist deaths by more than 21%? I express the hope that, in answering this question, the Minister’s brief will be more secure than it was last week when he answered a question of mine on fares to and from the Scilly Isles.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I am confident about the accuracy of this brief, but regret that during our discussions last Monday I stated that the return fare on the “Scillonian III” for Scilly Isles residents was £20.50. However, this is in fact the single fare and there may be other qualifications. I am very sorry about this, since it made my position appear stronger than it really was, to the detriment of the noble Lord’s.
The noble Lord asked me detailed questions about the management of traffic in London. He will appreciate that that is a matter for the mayor. It is disappointing that overall fatalities have increased slightly, the reasons for which we have not yet examined fully.
Lord Bradshaw
Part 6 of the Traffic Management Act 2004, to which the Minister has referred, gives local authorities powers to manage traffic—for example, yellow box junctions and right turns—which they can enforce through their own staff. However, is the Minister aware that the regulations have never been extended outside London? He should take it from me that bus services would be immeasurably improved if local authorities could discipline people who block the highway.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I shall draw my noble friend’s point to the attention of Mr Norman Baker, the Minister responsible.
Lord Tomlinson
My Lords, during this Question Time, we have heard reference to catapults and lane rentals. I am aware of the injunction that we heard from the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, for us to use plain, simple English. Can somebody please advise us what a catapult and a lane rental are?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I said to the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, that my brief was accurate, but it does not include anything about catapults. However, I agreed that technology would provide benefits.
Lord Crickhowell
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that, while the British public have been content to face disruption due to the jubilee and are perhaps slightly less content about disruption due to the Olympic Games, they would find it intolerable to have the whole of central London brought to a standstill, perhaps for several weeks in preparation and afterwards, for a grand prix to be held?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I anticipated an Olympics question. My first advice to all users of transport is to visit http://www.getaheadofthegames.com, which provides extremely good advice on how to avoid congestion. It is inevitable that there will be some congestion if we are to have a successful Games.
Northern Ireland Act 1998 (Devolution of Policing and Justice Functions) Order 2012
Earl Attlee Excerpts(12 years ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Cormack
I would like to point out to those who are concerned with the future of this place that we have on the Order Paper today a number of things, each one of which could be debated at length. However, because we are such a restrained, responsible House, we shall not be debating them at length, but an elected Chamber at odds with the other place might well choose to do so.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, this is a very simple Motion. It refers the instrument to a Grand Committee and that has been agreed by the usual channels.
Civil Aviation Bill
Earl Attlee Excerpts(12 years ago)
Grand CommitteeRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Berkeley
Like the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, I, too, was confused. I suppose there could be competition with baggage handling taxi services. The heart of an airport is, after all, the runways. Is it envisaged that there is competition between two runways? If it is, that is remarkably stupid. One never knows, and it will be interesting to hear what is subject to competition in this clause and what is definitely not, within a particular airport.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, for the explanation for the rationale behind this amendment. I am afraid that I must oppose it, for two reasons. The first is substantive and the second is technical.
The amendment would oblige the regulator to review its market power determinations at such intervals as it considers appropriate. Clause 7 provides that a market power determination is a determination by the CAA that an airport operator does or does not meet the market power test in relation to an airport area. Where it does, the operator is subject to economic regulation under the Bill. Where it does not, it is not subject to economic regulation.
Let me now turn to my reasons for opposing this probing amendment. The substantive reason is that the amendment is unnecessary. Clause 7(1) expressly empowers the CAA to make a market power determination,
“whenever it considers it appropriate to do so”.
I am mindful of the underlying purpose of Part 1 of the Bill which is broadly to further the interests of end users by regulating airport operators where necessary. I note also the CAA’s subordinate duty at Clause 1(4)(b) to have regard to the principle that,
“regulatory activities should be targeted only at cases in which action is needed”.
In answer to the question of the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, it is implicit that where changes in circumstances lead the CAA to believe that there are reasonable grounds to believe an operator presently subject to regulation should cease to be regulated, or vice versa, then it would investigate further. If appropriate, it would then conduct a full market power determination. I am reinforced in my view because Clause 7(2) obliges the CAA to make a market power determination in certain circumstances. Against this background, the noble Lord’s amendment adds little to the Bill
There is a further technical difficulty with the amendment, which I accept is a probing one. It is not wholly clear what is meant by a “review” of a market power determination. Presumably it is something short of conducting a full market power determination. Perhaps it may involve a consideration of whether the underlying circumstances have changed. However, no further provision is made to publish the results of the review or to take action in the light of its conclusions. In short, neither the purpose nor the effect of undertaking a review is made clear in the amendment.
My noble friend Lord Jenkin asked about competition between different facilities in an airport. The recommendation was made by the Competition Commission; we are implementing it.
Lord Jenkin of Roding
My noble friend must explain how it would work. I find it very difficult to see how it would if the facilities were under the same management.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, if they were under separate management there could be a competition situation. Under the current legislation, one simply cannot regulate because it does not provide for competition within one airport. Therefore, we are future-proofing the legislation.
The CAA’s functions under Chapter 1 comprise, broadly, deciding whether an airport operator should be subject to regulation—and if it should, regulating it accordingly. Clause 1(1) requires the CAA to carry out its functions under Chapter 1 in order to further the interests of passengers and freight owners in the provision of airport services. Under Clause 1(2) the CAA is required to promote competition when doing so, but only where it is appropriate to its carrying out its functions under Chapter 1. This is set out in Clause 1(2).
The concept of competition in provision captures competition in the provision of airport operational services between all airports, regulated and non-regulated, and competition in airport operational services within airports—for example, competition between terminals. However, the CAA must promote competition only where appropriate. It would not be appropriate to promote competition where the CAA was not carrying out its duty under Clause 1(1)—specifically, where promoting competition does not further the interests of users of air transport services in the range, availability, continuity, cost and quality of airport operational services.
Lord Berkeley
Perhaps I might seek confirmation of what the Minister said to the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin. Will he confirm that Clause 7(4) applies to airports where the number of passenger movements exceeds 5 million—I refer to a Written Answer of 20 June to the noble Lord, Lord Laird—and that therefore Heathrow, Gatwick, Stansted and Luton would all be covered by the clause?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, the large airport test certainly applies in Clause 7(2), which refers to areas located in large airports. It goes on to define a large airport. I suspect that the CAA can make a determination on any other airport at a later stage if it becomes apparent that it might be in need of regulation and meets the tests in the Bill. Therefore, I invite the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Rosser
Perhaps I might ask the noble Earl one last question before I withdraw my probing amendment. The thrust of his response seemed to be that what I sought to achieve with the amendment was covered by other parts of Clause 7. Do other parts of Clause 7 allow the CAA to initiate a review of an earlier decision that it has made off its own bat, or only if it is asked to by a person listed in subsection (3)?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, my understanding is that as soon as the CAA realises that it is appropriate to initiate a review because circumstances have changed, it can do so.
Lord Berkeley
My Lords, I shall expand a little on the comments of my noble friend Lord Davies of Oldham. A question needs to be asked: who will benefit from these three clauses? Will the passengers benefit? In my experience, when I want to go from A to B by air, I go to a website and look at the different airlines on different routes. Let us consider Stansted, for a change; we keep on talking about Heathrow. We are told that Stansted has lots of capacity. It has one terminal and one or two satellites from where the lower-cost airlines operate, and they make you walk a hundred miles to compensate you, presumably for paying lower landing fees. I suppose that those satellites, with a little engineering work, could be converted into a separate terminal, but how will the passengers benefit? When you book with an airline, you do so by considering price, timing or convenience. If you are going to book with easyJet to go to Dublin, for example, you do not have a choice of which part of the terminal, or which terminal, the plane will arrive at after landing. You are told where it will be. The passengers do not, therefore, have any choice over which terminal they can go to. They choose the airline and the airline tells you where you are going to end up.
I still cannot see who is going to benefit from these clauses. The airlines will not benefit, I imagine. Some of them pay lower landing charges than others and, as a result, are told to use a particular terminal—either close by or far away from convenient public transport and other facilities. You do not book with an airline because there is a better class of McDonald’s or a restaurant in some terminals. Are the airport operators going to benefit? I cannot see how. It will cost more, as my noble friend said. The suppliers will not get as big a volume of trade as they would if they were supplying a whole terminal. You could argue that they or someone might benefit from competition. And the passengers? I would be pleased to hear from the Minister about how they would benefit from these clauses.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I thank noble Lords for their contributions but I am afraid that I must oppose the amendment and support the Question that these important clauses stand part of the Bill.
Inter-terminal competition may be some time off and the Bill makes no provisions about timing. However, it is important that we future-proof the legislation. The noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, talked about disruption and consternation. Clearly, this would not be in the interests of passengers, and the CAA would therefore not allow such competition because it would be in conflict with its primary duty to the passengers and owners of cargo.
The noble Lord said that different airlines have different needs. He is, of course, quite right. Some airlines want to run a premium service and others want to be no-frills. However, the CAA will have to strike the balance between those differing requirements as well as replicate the effect of competition.
The Bill does not, in general, require inter-terminal competition but does accommodate the possibility. Promoting competition between terminals under the Bill would not happen if the cost implications of doing so meant that it would not benefit the passengers, again under the CAA’s primary duty. In the circumstances postulated, there is no question that the CAA would seek to require inter-terminal competition. If, however, an airport chose, say, to lease a terminal to a third party, the Bill would remain in service, and I will come back to that in a moment.
Clause 10 empowers the CAA to determine, by applying the criteria set out in Clause 9, including in cases where one or more separate entities have some form of management control over that area. Clause 11 contains provisions for the publication of operator determinations made under Clause 10 by the CAA. Clause 12 empowers the CAA to make operator determination in advance, on the basis of circumstances that may not yet have arisen.
The amendments to Clause 12 seek to remove the CAA’s powers to carry out an advance operator determination. However, before I get on to why the amendments are not desirable, I wish to reassure your Lordships on why “standard” operator determinations under Clauses 9, 10 and 11 are a necessary part of the legislation. These clauses are important for regulatory certainty, enabling a person to know whether they are the operator of an airport area for the purposes of Part 1. Otherwise, in difficult cases it will be uncertain who the operator is and who is not, and therefore who is and who is not subject to economic regulation. This means that they cannot be clear as to their legal obligations, and neither they nor their financial backers can know with certainty whether they will be subject to economic regulation.
The clause is not focused solely on the possible future scenario where intra-airport competition can be introduced. For example, it could apply where a whole airport was leased and some management functions were split between lessor and lessee. However, noble Lords have rightly pointed out that these clauses are important for ensuring that the Bill allows for the regulatory regime to work in a scenario where there are multiple operators of different airport areas at one airport—in other words, where there is inter-terminal competition. Inter-terminal competition is more likely to lead to more complex ownership arrangements.
I have already mentioned that it was a recommendation of the Competition Commission in its BAA Airports Market Investigation report of 2008 to allow for the regulatory regime to function where inter-terminal competition is present. The present legislation, the Airports Act 1986, does not allow for this possibility. If we, the Government, had not made these provisions, no doubt noble Lords would suggest that we should have done so, praying in aid the Competition Commission’s recommendations. It is important to note that these clauses do not empower the CAA to introduce inter-terminal competition; they merely ensure that if inter-terminal competition becomes a reality, the regulatory regime can accommodate the scenario.
Clause 10 empowers the CAA to make binding operator determinations on the basis of the circumstances at the time the determination is made. However, this is considered insufficient where a person wants to know whether they will comprise the “operator” in the event that they take some control over an airport area. Against this background, to allow for greater regulatory and commercial certainty, Clause 12 empowers the CAA to make advance determinations—that is, determinations on the basis of circumstances that have not yet arisen. This would include a determination that, if a lease were executed with specified terms, the lessee would or would not comprise the operator.
The first amendment would deprive the CAA of the power to make an advance operator determination. The Government cannot agree to this because it would increase regulatory uncertainty and possibly stultify commercial transactions. I therefore urge noble Lords to withdraw their opposition to the clauses.
Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, the Minister made the best fist that he could of a fairly weak argument. Of course, I recognise the merits of the clauses, in that he made it clear that it is important to define the operator and to know whom we are talking about. Who could possibly gainsay that proposition?
In objecting to the clause, I am not objecting to the sense that lies behind the elements within the clause to which the Minister addressed some of his remarks. I indicated that in opposing the clause I recognised this to be a fairly blunderbuss approach and that we have not refined our opposition in amendments—something that we may do in due course, perhaps on Report. However, I say to the Minister that in this general debate anxieties have been expressed across the Committee, and he has not allayed those anxieties at all, apart from—
Lord Davies of Oldham
I am delighted that the noble Lord had his anxieties allayed. They are obviously not as acute as those on this side of the Committee. In particular, if the noble Lord is all in favour of inter-terminal competition, perhaps he will ask the Minister to identify just where this is a raging success that we would want to encourage. The only specific example that we have so far is subject to considerable criticism. As the noble Lord indicated, airport operators are accurately defined in the legislation; I will not gainsay the necessity of that. None of them speaks well of future-proofing what they regard as a disadvantageous element of the Bill, which will introduce the possibility of inter-terminal competition. In particular, by putting it in the Bill in the way that they have, the Government limit parliamentary debate to secondary legislation. We know the limitations of that.
However, I seek to identify that this concept is a significant departure from how any British airport is run at present, and from how any successful airport is run elsewhere. Unless the Minister produces some evidence of how competition works to the benefit of the passenger—which he signally failed to do in his earlier contribution—the Committee will recognise that, far from my anxieties being allayed, they are more pronounced. Of course, I recognise that objecting to a clause standing part—or three clauses in this case, which is the first time that I have engaged in such an extensive operation—is something from which I shall have to resile fairly promptly. However, I do so to air a significant aspect of this debate. I say to the Minister that we are so dissatisfied with the response at this stage that he must assume that we will take this issue further on Report.
Earl Attlee
I am curious about the noble Lord’s attitude to the Competition Commission’s recommendation that we should provide for inter-terminal competition. Does he support that view or not?
Lord Davies of Oldham
Of course, I recognise the role of the Competition Commission and we applaud a great deal of its work. However, when it makes recommendations, one must also consider the industry’s likely response to the proposal that is being put forward. All I say is that the noble Earl has not identified any aspect of British industry that considers this to be an intelligent and sensible development. Nor is he able to identify any example from elsewhere in the world where this form of competition has redounded to the benefit of the consumer.
Earl Attlee
Earl Attlee
My Lords, in moving government Amendment 20, I shall speak also to government Amendments 21, 22, 23, 30, 32, 33, 35 to 45 and 61 to 63. These 20 amendments are being taken together because they all relate to appeals to the Competition Commission and the Competition Appeal Tribunal. Some 13 of the amendments give effect to our position that the Competition Commission and the Competition Appeal Tribunal should decide appeals on the same grounds. The other seven amendments ensure that both the Competition Commission and the Competition Appeal Tribunal have regard to the duties imposed on the CAA as set out in Clause 1 when deciding an appeal. For brevity, I will refer to the Competition Commission as the CC and to the Competition Appeal Tribunal as the CAT.
It has come to the Government’s attention that the current drafting in the Bill gives rise to inconsistency between the grounds on which the CC and the CAT may allow an appeal. In the present drafting, although the legal grounds on which an appeal may be allowed are the same, the CAT is specifically required to decide the appeal by reference to these grounds and “on the merits”. There is no equivalent provision for the CC to decide the appeal “on the merits”.
The Government are concerned that this inconsistency creates unnecessary and undesirable legal uncertainty. We wish to correct this to shut out any risk that under the current wording it could be interpreted that different powers are being conferred on the CC and the CAT. In summary, these amendments propose changes to the provisions about appeals to the CAT to align them with provisions about appeals to the CC.
Amendment 30 is to one of the grounds on which the CC may allow an appeal under Clauses 24 or 25 which relate to appeals against conditions of new licences and modifications to the licence conditions. The amendment would change the ground on which the CC may allow an appeal from,
“that the decision was based on the wrong exercise of a discretion”,
as it is currently in the Bill, to,
“that an error was made in the exercise of a discretion”,
as per the amendment. This amendment is being made to clarify the current drafting.
The remaining amendments are specific to appeals brought before the CAT. Amendments 35, 36, 37, 40, 43 and 61 delete the subsections that contain the current grounds on which the CAT may allow an appeal in Schedules 1, 3, 4, 5 and 13. Amendment 20 deletes a provision stating that an appeal may be brought on only one of the current grounds. Amendments 21, 38, 41, 44 and 62 replace these grounds with the same grounds as provided for in Clause 26 concerning appeals to the CC from,
“that the determination is based on the wrong exercise of a discretion”,
to,
“that an error was made in the exercise of a discretion”.
In particular, Amendments 21, 38, 41, 44 and 62 ensure that the CAT’s consideration of appeals is consistent with the CC’s by, first, removing the phrase “on the merits” from the grounds on which the CAT must decide an appeal, as just discussed; secondly, introducing an overall requirement that the decision appealed against was wrong on specified grounds—error of fact, wrong in law, and error in the exercise of discretion; thirdly, restricting the grounds for determining the appeal in the same way as for the CC; and, fourthly, reflecting Amendment 20 which, as I have just mentioned, clarifies the grounds of wrong exercise of discretion.
The overall result of these 13 amendments is that both the CC and the CAT may allow an appeal only to the extent that they are satisfied that the decision appealed against was wrong on one or more of the following grounds: that the decision or determination was based on an error of fact; that the decision or determination was wrong in law; and that an error was made in the exercise of a discretion.
These amendments are important to deliver the Government’s policy intention that the grounds on which the CC and the CAT decide appeals should be the same. They are also in keeping with our wish to deliver an efficient and effective appeals regime. These amendments allow the CC and the CAT to take a decision that offers something more than judicial review but does not extend to a potentially lengthy full rehearing of the case. The remaining seven amendments again ensure consistency between the two bodies. Amendments 32 and 33 to Clause 30 specify that when the Competition Commission is carrying out its functions as specified under subsection (4) of Clause 30, it must have regard to the matters,
“in respect of which duties are imposed on the CAA by section 1”.
Amendments 22, 39, 42 and 45 import an express duty on the CAT to have regard to the CAA’s duties as set out in Section 1 when deciding an appeal under Schedules 1, 3, 4 and 5. Amendment 63 imports an express duty on the CAT to have regard to the CAA’s duties as set out in Section 4 of the Civil Aviation Act 1982 when deciding an appeal under Schedule 13. My officials have engaged extensively with the CAT and the CC on this matter and they are content with the amendments. I commend them to your Lordships.
Lord Rosser
My Lords, perhaps I may take one of the amendments in the group to make my point. Government Amendment 30 deletes paragraph (c) in Clause 26, which says that the Competition Commission may allow an appeal under Section 24 or 25 only to the extent that it is satisfied that the decision appealed against was wrong on one or more of the following grounds, one of which is that the decision was based on the wrong exercise of a discretion. That wording has now been replaced in government Amendment 30 with the wording,
“that an error was made in the exercise of a discretion”.
I endeavoured to listen carefully to what the Minister had to say about this group of amendments and, if he did cover my point, I would be grateful if he could repeat his explanation. He seemed to say that this was all about clarifying the current drafting as opposed to explaining what the difference was between the wording in the Bill and what is being proposed, bearing in mind that it is not the same wording and therefore presumably does not mean exactly the same.
It would be helpful if the Minister could explain what this change in wording means. I refer to government Amendment 30 to paragraph (c) in Clause 26. Does the change from “wrong exercise” mean that although a decision was made incorrectly, the process was fine and the options to choose from were correct, the proposed wording,
“an error was made in the exercise of a discretion”,
is meant to imply that the exercise itself was flawed, had the wrong information to hand, was conducted incorrectly and options were considered that should not have been? It is important that we do not just get told, “We are seeking to clarify the current drafting”, but that we have a full explanation as to what the current wording in Clause 26 means—this relates to,
“that the decision was based on the wrong exercise of a discretion”,
and how that differs in meaning from the wording with which Amendment 21 replaces it,
“that an error was made in the exercise of a discretion”.
I hope that the Minister can clarify the position.
Lord Soley
There is a reason I am picking up on this, of course. I am a member of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee. We are getting increasingly worried about the quality of drafting of government Bills. It looks like a case where the drafting has changed for some reason. I do not want to be critical of the parliamentary draftsman concerned without knowing the facts but, if we flag it up as rather odd, there might be an explanation. I do not know what it is, and I would quite like to.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, the Committee will recognise that parliamentary draftsmen work in peculiar ways. It may be helpful if I read out what I said on this particular amendment again. Amendment 30 is to one of the grounds on which the CC may allow an appeal under Clause 24 or Clause 25, which relate to appeals against conditions of new licences and modifications of licence conditions. The amendment would change the grounds on which the CC may allow an appeal from,
“that the decision was based on the wrong exercise of a discretion”,
to,
“that an error was made in the exercise of a discretion”.
The view was taken that the drafting in Clause 26(c) could have been better expressed. There was no external request to change this wording, but the Committee will understand that officials go over the drafting again. It seems to me that it is better drafting. Originally, the grounds of appeal were based on statutory precedent, based on retrospective appeals to the CC and the CAT. The wording varied slightly. That is how the inconsistency first arose.
Lord Soley
Perhaps I may come back briefly. In a way the Minister has answered the question. The Delegated Powers Committee—not just the parliamentary draftsmen—worries about the quantity of legislation and the way in which it is often hastily drawn up. We end up making changes of this type which do not seem to come anywhere other than in Bills that are brought out by the Government in a state of incomplete readiness. We end up having an awful lot of amendments on the Floor of the House. This has happened under successive Governments and therefore successive parliamentary draftsmen. I suspect that the fault lies both in the way we manage government and in the expectations we place on parliamentary draftsmen. It is an indication of how things can go wrong. My guess—it is only a guess; I am not a lawyer—is that the interpretation by a court of the original wording in the Bill would have been different from the interpretation by a court of the amendment tabled by the Government. On that basis I understand it but I am glad that the Minister clarified it.
Lord Rosser
Perhaps I may ask the Minister to clarify what the wording means. When I made my contribution a few moments ago, I asked whether the current wording,
“wrong exercise of a discretion”,
meant that if a decision was made incorrectly, the process was fine and the options to choose from were still correct. I then asked if the new wording,
“error … made in the exercise of a discretion”,
was intended to imply that that the exercise itself was flawed, that it had the wrong information to hand or was conducted incorrectly, and that options had been considered that should not have been. Does the wording we now have mean one of those two options—and, if so, which one?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, it is probably best if I write to noble Lords; this is a very technical point.
Lord Jenkin of Roding
I have not heard an answer to my question. Why were there different rules for the Competition Commission and the Competition Appeal Tribunal? What was the original reason for having different rules? I entirely support the proposition that the rules should be the same; it makes a great deal of sense. However, I am puzzled by why somebody at some stage thought they should be different.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, as I said, originally the grounds of appeal were based on statutory precedent and retrospective appeals to the CC and the CAT. The wording varied slightly; that is how the inconsistency arose.
Earl Attlee
“( ) The Competition Appeal Tribunal may allow an appeal under paragraph 1 only to the extent that it is satisfied that the market power determination or operator determination appealed against was wrong on one or more of the following grounds—
(a) that the determination was based on an error of fact;(b) that the determination was wrong in law;(c) that an error was made in the exercise of a discretion.”
Lord Berkeley
My Lords, following the comment of my noble friend Lord Soley about immigration, by coincidence I have in the Crime and Courts Bill an amendment about the immigration service which may be discussed later tonight. The service is woefully inadequate, as my noble friend said. The delays are reflecting very badly on the country.
Passenger satisfaction should be measured in respect of immigration delays as well as many other things, because they are quite significant. My suggestion that I shall probably put tonight is that the immigration service should be given targets. I am not sure that this Government like targets but there might be a target for people with EU passports to wait for not more than 10 minutes, and for those from third countries to wait for not more than half an hour. We can debate what the targets should be. The crucial thing is that the immigration service should be required to pay some kind of compensation to the airlines if they exceed those targets, unless there is an emergency or something like that.
As several noble Lords have said, the key is to have this information. I would much rather see it come from the licence holder than from the immigration service, which might be tempted to massage the figures slightly. My noble friend Lord Davies can think about whether it should go in as a further amendment on Report, but we ought to measure this matter along with some of these other issues to get independent information on passenger satisfaction regarding everything they see when they arrive at or leave an airport.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I am aware that similar amendments were tabled in the Committee and Report stages in the House of Commons. These amendments provide us with a welcome opportunity to return to some important issues for passengers.
The noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, talked about comparisons with the bus and rail industry arrangements. There is no reason, however, why the CAA cannot look at those rules and regulations when devising licence conditions and learn from what happens in another industry. The noble Lord, Lord Soley, talked about first impressions. They do matter and I have been impressed with the work going on at Gatwick to improve the appearance of the airport and the way it works.
The noble Lord, Lord Empey, touched on the issue of a market survey and said that passenger satisfaction is at the core of what we are trying to do. It is, but it is the duty of the CAA to achieve the desirable outcomes by means of the licence conditions.
The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, talked about immigration issues, as did other noble Lords. A few years ago, I declined to visit the United States, even at public expense, because, frankly, I thought that the immigration arrangements there were so awful that I did not want to do it. I just said, “No, I will stay here and be with your Lordships”.
Earl Attlee
We will see what happens in the next reshuffle.
My honourable friend the Immigration Minister is reviewing what additional data may be published by the Home Office and shared with port operators. Meanwhile, the border force has responded to recent problems in a number of ways. It is tackling short-term peaks with a pool of trained staff, working with airports and airlines to ensure that they provide more accurate passenger manifests and flight schedules so that the border force can flexibly deploy staff at the right times and places, creating a new central control room for the border force at Heathrow that uses mobile teams for rapid deployment, and implementing new rostering and shift patterns. The border force is also working with Gatwick and Heathrow airports to improve passenger flows, using more specific measures such as e-gates and other biometric checks.
There can be no doubt that passengers want efficient baggage-handling services when they travel by air. The experience of recent years has also demonstrated how vital it is that airports prepare effectively for potential disruption. It is clear that the aviation sector as a whole needs to have effective means of dealing with passenger welfare during disruption of services. While I can therefore understand and agree with the sentiment behind these amendments and what noble Lords have said, I cannot recommend accepting them into the Bill. The text of the Bill already provides the most effective means of protecting passenger interests in relation to the matters raised.
Clause 18 and the licensing regime as a whole will give the CAA the flexibility to tailor licence conditions to the specific circumstances facing individual airports with substantial market power. This flexibility is an important means of minimising the distortions associated with regulatory intervention and ensuring that action taken by the CAA is proportionate. However, we also believe that giving the independent expert regulator flexibility and discretion in deciding the content of the licence is the most effective way to protect the interests of present and future passengers. If Parliament chooses to use this legislation to hard-code certain points in licences, it would constrain the regulator’s freedom to decide what priority should be afforded to different passenger concerns and what costs should be allowed for the delivery of competing consumer priorities. As the Minister of State said in Committee in the House of Commons, amendments such as these would make the licence system unbalanced because passengers care about a whole range of different issues. Moreover, a prescriptive approach in the Bill is likely to make it more difficult for the regulator to adapt its approach to the changing concerns of passengers. In 2005, who would have thought that volcanic ash would have been a major problem later on?
If we were to adopt these amendments, they would oblige the CAA to give greater weight to these factors than other matters that might become equally or more important to passengers in the future. This danger was recognised by the noble Lord, Lord Soley. Your Lordships can be very confident that the CAA will already use the new licensing powers proposed in the Bill to focus on, for example, operational resilience and passenger welfare in the event of extreme disruption—not least because of the CAA’s Clause 1 duties, as the noble Lord, Lord Davies, recognised. And why it would it not do so?
As we have discussed in Committee, in response to a request for advice from the Secretary of State, the CAA published an indicative licence in January to assist Parliament in its scrutiny of the Bill, and a copy has been sent to the House of Commons Library. At the request of the Department for Transport, the draft licence includes provisions on operational resilience. The proposals in condition 7 would require the licence holder to operate the airport efficiently and use its best endeavours to minimise detriment to passengers arising from disruption. The noble Lord, Lord Davies, mentioned disruption due to winter. When I visited Gatwick Airport before the most recent winter and saw all the new equipment in place, I was absolutely confident that the winter would be very mild.
It would also require the airport to draw up, consult on and gain the CAA’s approval for an annual resilience plan setting out how it would secure compliance with its obligations under the condition. The licence holder will then be obliged to comply with the commitments it has made in its resilience plan. The CAA sought initial views from industry in drafting the indicative licence. However, since Parliament has not yet concluded its consideration of the Bill, the CAA has not yet started to consult on proposed licence conditions for each airport that will be subject to regulation.
If the system proposed in the Bill is implemented, the CAA will consider the extent to which it is necessary or expedient to include conditions in a licence for operational resilience and other matters such as passenger welfare. The CAA expects that activities that might be expected to be part of the new licence regime would include taking into account other obligations on service quality standards, and the success of codes of conduct and voluntary arrangements being adopted by industry. Against this background we believe that putting specific requirements in the Bill on issues such as baggage handling and operational resilience could prove to be a disproportionate response that would place an unnecessary restriction on the CAA’s flexibility to develop proportionate and effective ways to address passenger concerns—and might even lead it to address the wrong ones.
In summary, the Bill provides the CAA—the body with the relevant operational expertise—after appropriate consultation, with the flexibility to determine appropriate and effective licence conditions. The amendments in this group could undermine our goal of giving the specialist regulator a flexible toolkit to protect the passenger. Therefore, I hope that the noble Lord will withdraw his amendment.
Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, I am grateful to noble Lords who introduced significant points, to which the Minister paid due regard—about as much regard as he paid to the points that I made in my opening speech. If through the amendments in this group I had sought to introduce microscopic instructions to the CAA on what it ought to do that would limit its capacity to fulfil its duties, I would quite understand the thrust of the Minister’s response. However, the first of the three amendments to which I addressed my remarks requires publication of an annual survey. This is not desperately specific but merely indicates that it would be a very good idea if the licence holder—the airport authority—gave some account to the general public of the effectiveness of its operation.
The second amendment suggests that the licence holder should develop passenger welfare plans. That is not specific; it merely indicates that it should be incumbent on the licence holder to fulfil the obligation that apparently underpins the Bill, which is to provide a better service to passengers. The third amendment merely suggests that support is necessary and should be provided for stranded passengers at airports. There is no Member of this Committee—including the Minister—who does not agree that action must be taken in this area. The Minister went so far as to indicate that strenuous efforts had been made to ensure that the numbers of such stranded passengers would decrease. I am not sure that Gatwick has the equipment to affect the climate and make our winters milder, but I know exactly what he meant. It now has the equipment to keep aircraft manoeuvring and able to fly, whereas over the winter that caused so much distress the airports did not have that.
We are merely asking for provision to be made for stranded passengers—an objective that the Minister says he shares—and I cannot think that the actions of the Civil Aviation Authority are cabined, confined or constrained by including these amendments in the provision on how the licence is granted. However, at this stage, I accept that the Minister is not as warm about these amendments as he is about the forecast for future winters, and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Berkeley
Does my noble friend agree that the key to the amendment is the word, “buying”. There is nothing to stop the provision of different queues for first-class passengers or others at check-in or security. The question is: have they paid extra to go through that facility rather than for the facilities on the flight?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I am aware that a similarly worded amendment was tabled in Committee in the House of Commons, but that related to Clause 83, on provision of:
“Information for the benefit of users of air transport services”.
The stated aim of that amendment was to close a perceived gap in the information that will be published under that clause on what passengers can expect to experience when departing or arriving at an airport, especially in relation to how long they should expect to wait to have their passport checked. The Government supported the broad intention of that amendment. Giving consumers more information on the quality of service provided by airports and airlines will help to maximise the benefits that markets deliver to passengers. However, the Minister of State ultimately resisted the amendment on the basis that the Bill already enables the CAA to require the collection and publication of information on check-in, baggage handling and security queues. He further explained that the UK border force, the authority responsible for border controls relating to arriving and departing passengers and goods, is responsible to Ministers and Parliament, and said that this is a more effective and appropriate means to hold the UK border force to account than giving the CAA power to oversee its activities.
The amendment today goes further than the previous one by seeking to prevent users from buying preferential access to check-in, security, immigration control and baggage reclaim processes. In considering the amendment, the Committee should note the distinction between check-in and baggage reclaim processes, and aviation security and border-control processes—the latter being subject to exacting standards enshrined in legislation. For example, airports are required, pursuant to international standards and EU and domestic regulatory requirements, to ensure that all passengers undergo security screening to specified levels. This is subject to monitoring and enforcement through security inspections and tests by the regulator. Legislation also requires full travel document checks to be conducted on all passengers, including all British citizens, arriving at the UK border. As the Minister of State made clear in the House of Commons, the security of our borders and the checks that need to be undertaken to protect us from those who would enter our country to do us harm are treated with paramount importance.
I am aware that the BAA runs a VIP suite scheme at Heathrow. The UK border force does not charge BAA or the VIPs any money for the provision of this service, nor does the BAA cover any border force costs. I will write to the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, with full details of the number of years that these arrangements have been in place. As long as standards of security and immigration are maintained at all times and in respect of all passengers, the Government do not wish to prevent the market offering access to these services, which are tailored to the needs of passengers. However, there is no question of reduced security, as suggested by the noble Lord, Lord Davies.
Your Lordships will no doubt be aware that a number of airlines offer faster check-in services to premium travellers who are willing to pay a premium for the service. The Government do not wish to prevent passengers benefiting from such products. If the concern is that the purchase of preferential access to check-in or baggage control processes would be an impediment to competition, the Bill already provides the CAA with the necessary powers to address that.
In summary, aviation security and immigration processes at UK airports must comply with exacting standards that are enshrined in legislation. There is no scope for passengers to pay to avoid these processes. The Government believe that the amendment goes too far in attempting to prevent the market offering access to these and other services that are tailored to the specific needs of users. I hope, therefore, that the noble Lord will consider withdrawing the amendment.
Lord Davies of Oldham
I am grateful to the Minister for his response, although I still believe that he is failing to recognise the context in which we find ourselves. That answer might have sufficed a decade ago, but as he knows only too well, we are operating a very stringent security regime at our airports. We all know the privations that occur from time to time. We know that people have to queue for hours on end because of the necessary requirements. The Government say that it is about security and the market has the right to provide preferential treatment for some. It seems to me that the concept of security is an obligation for every citizen. I do not see why there are favoured circumstances for a few, nor do I think it is conducive to the implementation of the security requirements if people believe that there is an inherent unfairness. The noble Earl made no reference whatever to that. Of course I recognise that no payment has been made by the airport to the Home Office with regard to this. However, if people are being transferred from heavily pressed desks to facilitate entry for those who have paid a premium, one should not be at all surprised that the difficulties occurring at airports are growing acutely. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment, but the Minister may come to rue the day.
Lord Berkeley
My Lords, I, too, support the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, and others on this amendment. An appeal may be very unlikely but, as other noble Lords have said, the consequences would be bad. I cannot see how anyone appealing under Clauses 24 and 25 would find it relevant to question the financing of BAA—or any other operator, for that matter. That would seem to have nothing to do with any appeal but one occasionally gets vexatious appeals. Given the size of the sums and the disaster that would ensue if investments did not go ahead because the bankers became uncertain about an appeal, this would seem to be an extremely sensible set of amendments. I, too, shall be interested to hear what the Minister has to say in response.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I have listened very carefully to the points that have been raised. As my noble friend Lord Jenkin pointed out, I have met BAA to discuss this issue in some detail, and since that meeting I have considered its concerns.
First, I assure the Committee that the Government remain of the opinion that there are good reasons to include derogations to financial resilience licence conditions where these would otherwise cut across existing financing arrangements. The CAA, which will be issuing the first airport licences, has also confirmed that it supports the broad principle that ring-fencing licence conditions, which does not cut across existing financial arrangements, could bring benefits to users.
The practical effect of the amendment would appear to shut out an airline’s right of appeal in respect of an entire licence condition, even if only a small part of it contained an exception relating to financial arrangements. Therefore, the scope of the amendment appears to be wider than the reason advanced for its inclusion. None the less, it is a perfectly good amendment for us to debate. The Government remain of the opinion—
Lord Soley
The point that the noble Earl makes is a fair one but it is perfectly possible, with the government draftsmen, to make a more refined and specific amendment, if necessary.
Earl Attlee
I absolutely agree with the noble Lord, Lord Soley. It is my duty to point out a drafting error in case my noble friend wants to run the amendment on Report. If I had not identified the problem in Committee and suddenly jumped up on Report and said, “Actually, the amendment is defective”, I think I would be a little unpopular.
The Government remain of the opinion that the broad rights of appeal provide an effective means of improving the accountability of key regulatory decisions. The process enables the interests of both airport operators and materially affected airlines to be taken into account. We therefore believe it is correct that this right of appeal should extend to licence conditions that relate to financial arrangements. An airline seeking to appeal a financial resilience condition, or the absence of such a condition in the first licence granted to an operator, will need to satisfy the Competition Commission that it is, in this context, a person whose interests are “materially affected” by the decision.
Any dispute over whether a derogation would cause a breach of existing financial arrangements would be most likely to arise from legal questions about the true construction of the loan agreement and/or the licence condition. These could ultimately be resolved through judicial review and, in the mean time, an airport operator could seek an injunction to preserve the status quo. Further comfort may be drawn from the fact that, subject to a government amendment that has been tabled being agreed, the Competition Commission, in deciding an appeal, will be obliged to have regard to the duties imposed on the CAA. Markets should therefore be reassured that the risk of existing creditor protection in an airport operator’s funding structure being unintentionally removed and triggering an event of default is extremely small.
We acknowledge that there is a possibility that the uncertainty created by an airline making an appeal to the Competition Commission on a licence condition relating to financial arrangements could affect an airport operator’s ability to access capital markets to raise finance while the appeal is being considered. However, as the timing of an application for leave to appeal is predictable, we consider that this is something an airport operator could successfully manage by pre-funding its financing requirements. We remain of the opinion that the right of appeal for airlines would not have significant negative consequences for an airport operator’s ability to raise debt in the capital markets.
Lord Trefgarne
Will the noble Earl say how long the appeals will take? He said that they would be of no consequence and could be temporarily ignored while the appeal process continued, but how long would that take?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, it may be helpful to the Committee if I outline the process. The initial consultation stage is a reasonable period set by the CAA. The period to bring an appeal, and the earliest date that licence modifications could come into force, is six weeks. For regulated representations the length of time is eight weeks. The appeal period is 24 weeks. Therefore it could be quite a long period. However, the appeal can be rejected because it is frivolous, vexatious or unlikely to succeed. The Competition Commission can make that determination quickly—but if it thought that there were good grounds for an appeal, the process would take longer. Frivolous or vexatious appeals, or those unlikely to succeed, could be determined quickly.
While the government position is clear and we have already communicated it to BAA, I have listened very carefully to noble Lords’ concerns and will communicate them to my right honourable friend the Minister of State for Aviation. I do not see that it would be in the airlines’ interests to attempt to overturn financial derogations determined by the CAA to be in passengers’ interests, where to do so would cause an event of default. The appeals regime has been designed to deter frivolous or vexatious appeals, as I mentioned. Furthermore, where the CAA proposes to grant a licence, including a condition furthering a financial derogation, or proposes to modify a condition containing a financial derogation, special conditions will apply.
Lord Soley
I am grateful but the Minister seems to be heading in the direction of neither moving on this nor looking at it again. He has described an appeal process that could take longer than six months. So it is a six-month possibility. He said earlier that the amendment put down by the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, was too extensive. I understand that but I do not believe it is beyond the wit of the Government to come back with an amendment that is more specific. It should be possible and I do not see why it cannot be considered.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, noble Lords suggested that the appeal process would take six months. I am suggesting that the Competition Commission will very quickly be able to determine whether the appeal is frivolous, vexatious or unlikely to succeed. I do not believe the CAA would grant a derogation unless it was absolutely certain that it would pass scrutiny from the Competition Commission. There is also the point that the licence condition does not come into effect until the appeal is heard.
I reiterate that I am not taking this away and I am not reflecting on it. I will, however, discuss the matter in detail with my right honourable friend.
Lord Trefgarne
I am bound to tell the noble Lord that his answer has been wholly unconvincing on this matter. I hope he will undertake to reconsider and bring forward amendments if he thinks fit at the next stage.
Lord Rosser
My Lords, as we have just been discussing, Clauses 24 and 25 deal with appeals to the Competition Commission in respect of, first, the conditions of new licences and, secondly, modification of licence conditions. Under the Bill, persons who operate a dominant area at a dominant airport require a licence to levy charges. An appeal lies to the Competition Commission against a decision by the Civil Aviation Authority to include, or not to include, a condition in a licence when it is granted, and an appeal also lies to the Competition Commission against a decision by the Civil Aviation Authority to modify a licence condition.
An appeal can be brought only with the permission of the Competition Commission and the Bill states that the Competition Commission may refuse permission to appeal only on one of the following grounds: that the appeal is brought for reasons that are trivial or vexatious, or that the appeal does not have a reasonable prospect of success. Clearly, from the wording in the Bill there is a concern that trivial or vexatious appeals should be stopped. I am sure we would all agree with that objective, and my amendment seeks to add in a further ground on which permission to appeal can be refused—namely, that the appeal does not demonstrably show that it is in the interests of users of air transport services, in order to further minimise the potential for frivolous or vexatious appeals.
The primary duty of the Civil Aviation Authority, as set out in Clause 1, is that it must carry out its functions in a manner which it considers will further the interests of users of air transport services regarding the range, availability, continuity, cost and quality of airport operation services. Surely, then, there must be an argument for saying that in any appeal to the Competition Commission against a decision by the Civil Aviation Authority to include, or not to include, a condition in a licence, or in any appeal against a decision by the CAA to modify a licence condition—both instances relating to persons who operate a dominant area at a dominant airport—it should also have to be shown quite clearly that the appeal is in the interests of users of air transport services, bearing in mind that that is the primary duty and responsibility placed on the Civil Aviation Authority, whose decision is being appealed.
Clause 30, on the procedure on appeals, states that subsections (1), (2) and (5) of Clause 1 apply to the carrying out by the Competition Commission of its function of deciding an application for permission to appeal under Clauses 24 and 25. Clause 30 refers to subsections (1) (2) and (5) of Clause 1, and subsection (1) refers to the Civil Aviation Authority having, where appropriate, to carry out its functions in a manner which it considers will promote competition in the provision of airport operation services. In a debate on an amendment when we were previously discussing the Bill in Committee, the Minister said that subsection (1) of Clause 1 would take priority over subsection (2) as far as the Civil Aviation Authority was concerned if promoting competition in the provision of airport operation services conflicted with its duty under subsection (1) to carry out its functions in a manner which the Civil Aviation Authority considers will further the interests of users of air transport services regarding the range, availability, continuity, cost and quality of airport operation services.
However, it is not clear whether the giving of priority to subsection (1) over subsection (2) in Clause 1 where there is any sort of conflict applies also to the Competition Commission under Clause 30. Without it apparently being clear that it does, the Competition Commission, bearing in mind its name, might well give greater weight to promoting competition when deciding whether or not to refuse permission to appeal, rather than wanting to satisfy itself that the appeal is in the interests of users of air transport services, which is clearly stated in this amendment and is in accordance with the primary, overriding duty of the Civil Aviation Authority as laid down in Clause 1(1).
I hope that the Minister will either accept the amendment or be able to provide an assurance that giving priority to subsection (1) over subsection (2) in Clause 1 applies equally to the Competition Commission in Clause 30 as to the Civil Aviation Authority. I beg to move.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for explaining the concerns that his amendments seek to address. However, I believe that the Bill already takes those concerns into account. The proposed appeals process has been carefully designed to ensure that where an appeal is brought, ordinarily for it to succeed, the appeal body should consider whether it is in passengers’ interests in the provision of airport operation services. It is our aim to have in place an appeals process that facilitates transparency and a timely manner of resolution of appeals, and that permission to appeal should be granted only where appropriate. However, we do not wish to stop those whose interests are materially affected from appealing. In meetings with airlines and airport bodies, my officials have sought to assure parties of this.
Clauses 24(5)(b) and 25(5)(b) as currently drafted already ensure that permission to appeal a licence condition or licence modification would be refused if the appeal did not have a reasonable prospect of success. Where an appeal had a reasonable prospect of success, it would be unjust and wrong in principle to refuse permission. In answer to the important question put by the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, I refer the Committee to Clause 30, which contains provisions stating that the Competition Commission “must have regard” to the same duties as the CAA in the discharge of stated functions. Included in these is the determination for permission to appeal under Clauses 24 and 25.
The Bill as drafted empowers the Competition Commission to refuse to grant permission to appeal so as to avoid parties bringing an appeal as a “spoiling” tactic. Nor can appeals be used as a delaying tactic. The default position is that the CAA’s licence condition or modification comes into effect while the appeal is being heard. Therefore, I do not believe that the inclusion of a further subsection in Clauses 24 and 25, as suggested by the noble Lord, would add anything of further substance to the Bill.
In the light of those assurances, I hope that the noble Lord will be willing to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Rosser
Before I do so, while I think that the noble Earl has probably given me the assurances that I seek, perhaps I may ask him again directly whether he is saying clearly that, under the terms of Clause 30 where it states—as I indicated and the noble Earl has repeated—that subsections (1), (2) and (5) of Clause 1 apply to the carrying out by the Competition Commission of its functions, which include determining appeals brought under the two clauses that we are talking about, in carrying out those functions the Competition Commission is bound in the same way under Clause 1(1) and (2) as the Civil Aviation Authority is itself. Will it have the same general duty in respect of determining whether those appeals should be heard? In other words, it is to give priority—and see as its primary duty as the Competition Commission—to making the decision to furthering,
“the interests of the users of air transport services regarding the range, availability, continuity, cost and quality of airport operation services”,
thus ensuring that that duty overrides the duty to promote competition in the provision of airport operation services. I think that that is what the Minister said to me, but I should be grateful if he could confirm that that is the case.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, the Competition Commission must have regard to the CAA’s general duty under Clause 30, as per the set of amendments accepted earlier today. We do not believe that it would be sustainable for the Competition Commission to promote competition where to do so would be inimical to the interests of users of air transport services, as described in Clause 1(1).
Lord Rosser
I do not seek to play with words; I am just anxious to be clear. The Minister said that the Competition Commission must “have regard”. Does that mean that its general duty in hearing these appeals is the same as the CAA’s general duty under Clause 1, which states that its primary and overriding responsibility in determining whether those appeals should be heard is to,
“further the interests of users of air transport services”,
rather than, where there is a conflict, to promote competition? I do not know whether we are playing with words over “have regard to”. In the Minister’s view, does that mean that the Competition Commission is bound in the same way as the CAA is in its general duty under Clause 1(1) and (2)?
Lord Rosser
In that case, since the Minister’s very specific answer makes it clear that the Competition Commission has the duty in the same way as the CAA has the duty under Clause 1(1) and (2), I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Earl Attlee
“(c) that an error was made in the exercise of a discretion.”
Lord Rosser
The amendment relates to Clause 29, which deals with appeals determined by the Competition Commission under Clauses 24 and 25, which we have just discussed. Clause 29 states:
“A determination made by the Competition Commission … must be contained in an order”.
Later, it states that the Civil Aviation Authority,
“must take such steps as it considers requisite for it to comply with the order”.
It then goes on to say:
“The steps must be taken … if a time is specified in the order or is to be determined in accordance with the order, within that time, and … otherwise, within a reasonable time”.
The effect of the amendment would be to remove “within a reasonable time” and insert,
“within the period of 24 weeks beginning with the day on which the Competition Commission published the relevant order”.
This is a probing amendment, which seeks to find out what the Government mean by “within a reasonable time” and how they believe those words should be interpreted. Do they mean more or less than 24 weeks and, if it could be more than 24 weeks, will the Minister give some examples of where it might be reasonable for the Civil Aviation Authority to take longer than 24 weeks to comply with an order made by the Competition Commission when no specific timescale is laid down by it? It would also be helpful if the Minister could say who will be responsible for deciding whether the Civil Aviation Authority has taken steps to comply with an order within a reasonable time. Will it be the Civil Aviation Authority itself, the Competition Commission, the Secretary of State, the courts or some other individual or body?
As I say, this is a probing amendment. I hope I have explained the motive for tabling it and the issue that we hope the noble Earl will address. I beg to move.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, the amendment seeks to amend subsection (7)(b) of Clause 29. The clause contains provisions relating to the publication of, and other matters connected to, the determination of appeals.
The current drafting provides that the CAA must take steps to comply with the appeal determination within any time period specified in the order. When none is specified, it must do so within a reasonable time. I am unable to support the amendment for two reasons. First, we do not think that it is necessary. Under subsection (7)(a) of the clause, the Competition Commission may specify a time limit in the order. We would expect it to do so if and whenever appropriate. Why would it not do so? Secondly, in circumstances where it is not appropriate to specify a period, it will be necessary to afford the CAA a reasonable time within which to comply with the order. What will comprise a reasonable time depends upon the context. There may be cases where action should be taken in fewer than 24 weeks and others where it is not reasonable to expect the CAA to take action within that period.
The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, asked me to give examples. I do not have any to hand but there may, I suggest, be a requirement to provide IT facilities or some capability that might require the CAA to procure something. It simply would not have time to take the necessary procurement action, although it might have every intention of doing so and perhaps give assurances that it would do so.
Against this background, to set an arbitrary time limit of 24 weeks is not appropriate and may cause injustice. Therefore, it is prudent to retain the flexibility that subsection (7)(b) provides the CAA. This flexibility is consistent with our wish for the CAA to be an efficient regulator but to allow it appropriate periods of time to comply with orders. I hope that in the light of my explanation the noble Lord will be willing to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Clinton-Davis
I have a certain amount of sympathy with what has been said but the trouble with this provision is that it lacks specificity. That is desirable in legislation. I have some doubts—perhaps the Minister can remove them—as to whether these sorts of provisions are capable of determination without difficulty. Perhaps I am wrong about that. The Minister ought to take another look at this matter. We are on the same wavelength on this. There is no doubt that we are in agreement about the provision that the Minister has in mind but I am doubtful about the wording.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I am not a lawyer but I do not have any difficulty in understanding the provisions. I do not understand why the Competition Commission or the Competition Appeal Tribunal would not set a time limit if it were appropriate to do so. If it were inappropriate—the CAA might have said that it was already complying and had no intention of stopping complying—it would be totally unnecessary to impose a time limit. However, I would expect the Competition Commission to impose a time limit if it were desirable.
Lord Rosser
I thank the Minister for his reply. I also thank my noble friend Lord Clinton-Davis for the points he made. Obviously it is my intention to withdraw the amendment since it is probing in nature, but will the Minister respond to the other point I made about who will determine whether it has been done within a reasonable time? The clause provides that it should be done “within a reasonable time” if no time limit is set. Who makes the decision as to whether it has been done within a reasonable time?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I do not know the answer to that question, but I imagine that if it was not done within a reasonable time, there would be a mechanism for the appellant to go back to the Competition Commission or the Competition Appeal Tribunal. However, if I have got that wrong, obviously I will write to the noble Lord.
Lord Clinton-Davis
I would have expected the Minister to say that the phrase “within a reasonable time” is used repeatedly in other legislation. Will he consider that?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, the terms “a reasonable time” and “a reasonable person” are frequently found in legislation. The noble Lord is absolutely right.
Lord Rosser
I am happy to leave this in the context that if the Minister finds that the response he has given to me on who will determine whether it has been done within a reasonable time is not the position, he will write to say that. As I say, it is a probing amendment to try to find out more about the Government’s intentions so far as the definition of “within a reasonable time” is concerned, and what kind of cases might come within that category rather than in subsection (7)(a), which provides that,
“if a time is specified in the order”.
I thank the noble Earl for his response and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Earl Attlee
Earl Attlee
Earl Attlee
My Lords, this is a minor and technical amendment and as such I do not expect it to be controversial. It seeks to make the drafting in sub-paragraph (2)(a) of paragraph 22 of Schedule 2 consistent with the rest of that paragraph. It corrects the omission of the words “information or evidence” from the phrase “matter, information or evidence”. This phrase can be found elsewhere in paragraph 22. So this amendment makes sub-paragraph (2)(a) consistent with the other provisions in paragraph 22 of Schedule 2, which delineates the circumstances in which the Competition Commission may allow new matters, information or evidence to be adduced in appeals brought before it. Paragraph 22 of Schedule 2 generally prohibits the Competition Commission from considering any matter, information or evidence in an appeal that was not in the appeal before the Civil Aviation Authority.
However, in common with other appellate jurisdictions, there are limited circumstances where, in the interests of justice, this general rule needs to be capable of being displaced. It is necessary for the power to displace this rule so as to be co-extensive with the scope of the general prohibition. I beg to move.
Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, I agree with the Minister. Try as I might, I can find nothing controversial in his amendment.
Earl Attlee
Earl Attlee
Earl Attlee
Earl Attlee
My Lords, just in case the issue about the Competition Commission comes up again during our debate today, I would like to clarify what I said in response to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, about the CC having regard to the CAA’s general duty. As an appeal body, the CC must have the flexibility to decide an appeal justly and according to law. A duty to “have regard to” is not the same as a case where the CC must apply exactly the same duty as the CAA, but the primary duty will have great weight in the CC’s decision. It seems very unlikely, having regard to the constrained grounds under which an appeal may be made—an error of law, fact and so forth—that the CC would allow an appeal that was inimical to passengers’ interests.
Flexibility arises from Clause 1(5). Where there is conflict between the interests of different classes of passengers, the CAA is generally free to choose whose interests it prefers. The CC would also have regard to this provision. I will write to noble Lords so that any interested parties can pick up this clarification.
I welcome this debate about the slots and thank the noble Lord, Lord Empey, for explaining his concerns. I also pay tribute to the work that the noble Lord has done not just in Westminster but in Brussels. It is an object lesson in how to achieve these objectives. The new clause is intended to allow the CAA to take actions to help protect the provision of regional air services to congested London airports, such as directing airports to ring-fence slots for regional services or structure their charges so as to favour regional services.
The Government take the matter of regional connectivity very seriously. The noble Lord, Lord Davies, mentioned the problems of regional airports, for example some of those in Scotland. As I said before, we recognise the vital contribution that regional airports make to local economies, and that high-quality regional connectivity is hugely important. For remoter areas of the UK, regional air services are not a luxury but a vital means of connectivity. As the Committee will be aware, and as I confirmed at the first Grand Committee sitting, European Union regulations govern the allocation, transfer and exchange of slots at Heathrow and other slot co-ordinated airports in the UK.
EU slot regulations follow the Worldwide Slot Guidelines determined by the International Air Transport Association, reflecting the fact that commercial aviation is a global business. Council Regulation (EEC) No 95/93 on common rules for the allocation of slots at community airports provides common rules throughout Europe for slot allocation. These are aimed at providing airlines with fair and equal access to airports across the EU through independent and transparent slot allocation procedures. Members are required to ensure that independent airport slot co-ordinators are appointed to manage slot allocation at airports where capacity problems occur.
EU law does not allow either the Government or the CAA to have any role in slot allocation apart from the limited exception provided by the public service obligation procedure. EC Regulation No 1008/2008 allows member states to impose public service obligations to protect air services to airports serving a peripheral or development region or on thin routes to any airport on its territory where such a route is considered vital for the economic and social development of the region.
It would be open to regional bodies—for example, local enterprise partnerships and the devolved Administrations—to apply to the Secretary of State for Transport to impose a PSO on an air route if they feel that a case can be made which satisfies the EC regulation. If approved, this would permit slots to be ring-fenced at a relevant London airport. However, one of the important principles of the PSOs is that they can be imposed only when it is necessary to ensure adequate services between two cities or regions, rather than for the purposes of linking individual airports—a point recognised by the noble Lord, Lord Empey. Importantly, that means that when judging whether a region has adequate services to London, it will be necessary to take into account the level and nature of services to all five of London’s main airports, as well as surface transport connections.
Unfortunately, I have to repeat what I said before: there is no other mechanism for the Government to intervene in the allocation of slots at Heathrow or other London airports. Under European law, the potential for the ring-fencing of slots at Heathrow to protect regional services is to be dealt with by the rules on PSOs only. Therefore, any proposals to override the strict criteria and processes by which European Governments can intervene in route operations would be incompatible with EU law. I think the noble Lord understands that but still seeks a solution.
Lord Berkeley
On the basis of the noble Earl’s argument, it would seem that there can be no grounds for having a third runway at Heathrow until all four of the other airports that he just mentioned are full.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, this is not a debate about the third runway. Whether we have a third runway at Heathrow is not relevant. If we got a situation in which we had a third runway and then ran out of capacity at Heathrow, we would still have the same problem.
In addition, the application of traffic distribution rules—the TDRs—is also governed by EU law, which prohibits the implementation of discriminatory rules, including on geographical grounds. As a result, the introduction of TDRs to protect particular regional air services is not an option as it would also be incompatible with EU law. If the amendment seeks to empower the CAA to give a direction to the airport to structure its charges so as to discount airport usage for regional services, I regret that this would not be possible for a number of reasons. If it is not in the interests of users of air transport services on the grounds of the range, availability, continuity, cost and quality of airport operation services, it would not be consistent with the primary duty for the CAA to give such a direction.
In addition, EU directive 2009/12/EC on airport charges introduced common principles on the levying of airport charges at community airports above a certain size to ensure transparency and consultation. That directive was transposed into UK law through the Airport Charges Regulations 2011. Airport charges must not discriminate between users but charges can vary in the interests of the public and in the general interest, provided the reasons are relevant, objective and transparent. The CAA has an enforcement role regarding the Airport Charges Regulations, so it would not be consistent for it to direct on the structure of airport charges. However, as your Lordships are aware from the opening remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Empey, the EU slot regulations are in the process of being reformed in Europe at present. The European Commission’s “Better Airports” package includes proposals to amend the EU slot regulations, which provides an opportunity for the UK to highlight this issue with the European Commission and to explore the inclusion of measures to help secure the ongoing provision of air services between UK regions and congested London airports.
I fully understand the concerns behind the noble Lord’s proposed new clause, but I am unable to support it for the reasons given. Nevertheless, I assure the Committee that the Government are committed to supporting regional airports and regional connectivity. We will also consult on a new aviation policy framework, which will include a focus on regional airports. We will also issue a call for evidence on maintaining the UK’s international connectivity. I would welcome the contribution of the noble Lords and their constituents to that debate and I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Empey, will consider withdrawing his amendment.
Lord Bradshaw
Before the noble Lord, Lord Empey, speaks, I have to say that that is one of the most convoluted answers that I have ever heard. We say in these debates that we will read Hansard, but we shall do so with a wet towel around our heads this time. I believe it is incumbent on the Government here in London to find a method by which the air services to Belfast, of which I was a regular customer, can be maintained. They are incredibly expensive now compared with similar flights elsewhere. The customer is being short-changed. I hope that the Minister and his colleagues will bear it in mind that this must be put right in any review of aviation legislation.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I could paraphrase what I have just said by saying that we cannot do what the noble Lord wants because of EU regulations but the EU is working on it.
Lord Empey
I am grateful that I needed no wet towel for that answer. I thank the Minister for his response. It is a very convoluted issue with all these parallel processes taking place. However, at the end of the day, there is a problem that could exist in the future, although it does not exist right now, and we should not be in the position of being entirely at the mercy of a particular airline or of being involved in some kind of commercial tug of war that can isolate a region. This is deliberately not a Northern Ireland-only issue.
To sum up, I thank the Minister. I shall continue to work on this and I believe that there is an appetite to do something about it. I will take the advice of the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, and read Hansard, and I will keep open my option of returning to this matter on Report. However, in response to the Minister, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, for tabling the amendment. An amendment of this kind would address a recommendation of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee in its helpful report on the Bill, which was published four days before the start of Grand Committee. I have no complaint, but we will need a little more time to determine which way to go. However, I agree with the general aim of the amendment and have much sympathy with it.
The current drafting of the amendment is not technically correct. It would need alternative drafting to make a consequential amendment to the Airports Act 1986, where the provisions are to be inserted. I therefore wish to consider the matter further, with the intention of bringing forward a government amendment on Report. However, I do not anticipate having any difficulty with accepting the advice of the DPRRC. I hope that this reassures your Lordships that my intention is for a government amendment to be brought forward on this, in order to respond effectively to the DPRRC recommendation that if the purpose of the order provided for in sub-paragraph (11) of paragraph 2 of Schedule 8 is to ensure that the threshold can be increased for reasons other than inflation, the current negative procedure should be amended to an affirmative procedure to give Parliament greater scrutiny. With this assurance, I hope that the noble Lord will withdraw his amendment.
Lord Rosser
I thank the Minister for that very helpful reply. I fully accept that the amendment might not be worded in the appropriate manner. It appears from what he said that he intends to take the matter away with a view to producing an amendment that is in the right place in the Bill and says the right things to achieve the recommendation of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee. On that basis, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Earl Attlee
“( ) Section 74 (restriction on disclosure of information) is amended as follows.
( ) In subsection (3)”
Earl Attlee
My Lords, the amendments in this group are minor and technical amendments to paragraph 3 of Schedule 9, which contains the consequential provisions for amendments to be made to other Acts. In particular these are amendments to the consequential provisions relating to Section 74 of the Airports Act 1986. Their purpose is to tidy up the consequential amendments in the Bill to Section 74(4) of the Act. The current Bill does not provide for amending Section 74(4) of the Airports Act 1986 and the amendments seek to correct this. Section 74(4) provides that the restriction on disclosure of information does not limit the disclosure of information in reports of the Competition Commission under Section 45 of the Act, and does not apply to information that has been made public as part of such a report.
Section 74(4)(a) will be redundant once Part 4 of the Airports Act 1986 is repealed. This is given effect to in Clause 76(1) of the Bill. However, paragraph (b) will continue to be relevant to information previously disclosed in Competition Commission reports under Part IV of the Airports Act 1986. If Section 74(4) were left as it is, it would not be technically incorrect. However, it is desirable to make this minor amendment to ensure that redundant references are removed, while ensuring transparency over the effects of past reports published by the Competition Commission. I beg to move.
Earl Attlee
“( ) In subsection (4)—
(a) leave out paragraph (a), and(b) in paragraph (b), for “such a report” substitute “a report of the Competition Commission under section 45”.”
Earl Attlee
Earl Attlee
My Lords, this is another minor and technical amendment to paragraph 7 of Schedule 10. The schedule contains the main transitional provisions for the regulation of operators of designated airports under the Airports Act 1986. Paragraph 7 provides the power to amend the schedule. The amendment is being made because sub-paragraph (1) of paragraph 7 is no longer required following the minor and technical amendment made to Clause 107 during the Commons Committee stage which contains a power with the same effect. The amendment deletes sub-paragraph (1) of paragraph 7 because it repeats what is set out in Clause 107. Doing so, however, requires sub-paragraph (2) to be amended to make reference to Clause 107. The amendment does not alter the effect of sub-paragraph (2) of paragraph 7 because we believe that it is important to maintain that certain provisions in Schedule 10 should not be able to be amended through paragraph 7, such as the interim period ending at 31 March 2014. This is the last day of the current regulatory settlement known as Q5, and we do not wish to disturb the current regulatory settlement period. I beg to move.
Earl Attlee
Smoke-free Private Vehicles Bill [HL]
Earl Attlee Excerpts(12 years ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I congratulate my noble friend Lord Ribeiro on securing the reintroduction of this Bill, which seeks to amend the Health Act 2006 to make provision for a ban on smoking in private vehicles where there are children present. The Government welcome the role that my noble friend’s Private Member’s Bill has played in bringing this important issue to the attention of your Lordships’ House.
In answer to my noble friend Lady Gardner of Parkes, the good news is that this House can carefully consider a Private Member’s Bill. I have had exactly the same experience as my noble friend with my Road Traffic (Enforcement Powers) Bill. But how another place conducts its business is of course not a matter for me.
In addition, we have seen a valuable contribution to raising awareness and stimulating public debate on second-hand smoke achieved through the introduction of a similar Private Member’s Bill last year in another place, the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Smoking and Health’s inquiry and report on second-hand smoke, the Royal College of Physicians’ 2010 report entitled Passive Smoking and Children, and recent campaigns by the British Medical Association and the British Lung Foundation.
Smoke-free legislation has been in place since 2007. These laws have been particularly effective in reducing exposure to harmful second-hand smoke in enclosed public and work places. Smoke-free legislation is popular and levels of compliance are high. We need to maintain that. However, we cannot escape the fact that it is now enclosed places that are not covered by smoke-free laws where people are likely to be exposed to second-hand smoke, including homes and family cars. Importantly, research shows that there has not been displacement of smoking into the home since smoke-free legislation came into place. In fact, more and more people are making their homes entirely smoke free, and that can be only good news.
My noble friend Lady Gardner of Parkes mentioned the problem of smoke from outside smoking areas adversely affecting other residential smoke-free areas. I am aware of this, but it does not mean that the existing legislation is flawed. She asked whether local authorities could be granted powers to introduce by-laws to protect people from second-hand smoke in outdoor public areas. Local communities and organisations may also wish to go further than the requirements of smoke-free laws by creating environments free from second-hand smoke—for example, in children’s playgrounds and outdoor parts of shopping centres. This can also help to shape positive social norms and discourage the use of tobacco and has been introduced using voluntary mechanisms by some local authorities. Local authorities that have introduced smoke-free outdoor places will have done so voluntarily—for example, in children’s playgrounds that are the property of local authorities, and where a condition of entry is that smoking does not take place and signs are put in place. Local authorities do not need by-laws to do this.
I am sure that we would all like to see the end of smoking in cars in which children are being conveyed. There is a diversity of opinion on how to reduce exposure to second-hand smoke in the places not covered by smoke-free laws. The question is: how do we encourage smokers to modify their behaviour for the benefit of the health of others in private spaces such as the home and family car? For example, many, including my noble friend Lord Ribeiro, have called for legislation to prohibit smoking in private vehicles. Others say that the best way to afford protection from second-hand smoke is to encourage smokers to quit for good. The Government have an assertive and comprehensive tobacco control plan to reduce smoking rates and stop the uptake of smoking by young people.
As we have been reminded today, evidence of the harm to children from second-hand smoke is well documented, and that many children continue to be exposed, whether in family cars or in the home. I am sure that my noble friend Lord Ribeiro has convinced the House on the technical points. A key factor to assess when considering his Bill is that we do not know what proportion of the ill health among children attributable to second-hand smoke results from exposure in cars. It follows that we are not able to estimate what the likely impact on child health would be from the ban that the Bill would introduce. This problem is compounded by the likely problems of whether such a ban could be enforced in practice.
Smoke-free legislation in England, covering enclosed workplaces and public places, including public transport, is enforced by local authorities. Local authority officers do not have powers to stop vehicles in progress or even to detain those that have stopped. Even if the officers had such powers, in practice it is likely that they could not be exercised safely without the assistance of the police, extensive training and resource. Without being authorised to stop vehicles or easily identify offenders, enforcement by local authorities would be difficult. Therefore, we consider that the only realistic option would be for the police to enforce any ban on smoking in private cars. This additional task may not be welcomed by the police, on top of their many other responsibilities. The practicalities of enforcement may also be further complicated by the fact that small children may not be easily visible from outside the vehicle, and it may be difficult to identify whether passengers in a car where someone is smoking are under the age of 18. I do not believe that we should legislate in this area without first identifying how any law could be enforced effectively.
Additionally, there is the issue of creating new criminal offences or extending the locations in which current criminal offences are committed—a point made by my noble friend Lord Colwyn. The Government believe that we ought first to consider whether there are other more effective methods of reaching out to parents and other adult smokers to encourage them to want to modify their smoking behaviour to protect others, particularly children.
When considering legislation that seeks to require changes in the behaviour of people in private vehicles for public health rather than road safety reasons, we also need to consider human rights aspects. These might include whether there might be unjustified interference with people’s private space. I acknowledge, however, that such arguments need to be balanced against the rights of children to be protected from harm. One noble Baroness suggested a total ban on smoking in a vehicle. In human rights terms, that might well be a step too far, given the current levels of smoking in the general population.
Your Lordships will be aware that in the Tobacco Control Plan for England, published in March 2011, the Government undertook to run a marketing campaign aimed at raising awareness about the dangers of smoking in vehicles and in the home, particularly when children are present. This campaign ran after Easter and aimed to encourage positive behaviour change among smoking parents and other smokers in those places. I watch little TV but was certainly aware of the campaign. The Department of Health will be carrying out a full evaluation of the campaign, which will give us further information on changes in attitudes and behaviours in relation to smoking in the home and car and on quit attempts generated by the campaign. The results of this will be available for further consideration in the autumn. In answer to the noble Lord, Lord Collins, we will assess the effects of the campaign before determining what to do next to change behaviour.
The results of the campaign were very encouraging and we have some basic data on its results, including the fact that the campaign prompted nearly half a million visits to the smokefree website, which provided information on second-hand smoke, compared with 100,000 visits the year before. Well over 60,000 smoke-free kits were requested and delivered to families in response to the advertising campaign. We saw a parallel increase in quit-kit orders during the campaign and have sent out almost 40,000 of the kits since the campaign was launched. The evaluation will help to inform decisions about what other action, if any, is required to address the issue of second-hand smoke in the home and family cars.
My noble friend Lady Gardner of Parkes talked about dental issues arising from smoking. There is a clear link between smoking and dental health. Smoking is a cause of peritonitis, as well as oral cancer. However, we are not aware of any evidence that there is a link between second-hand smoke and dental health problems.
I was asked why we do not approach the problem from a different perspective and prohibit drivers from smoking in all motor vehicles on the grounds that this distracts them from driving safely. The noble Lord, Lord Collins, asked whether this was a road safety issue. I agree that smoking at the wheel of any road vehicle can cause driver-distraction, as lighting up and using smoking materials means that one’s hands are removed from the steering wheel. However, the Government have no proposals to introduce the same penalties for smoking while driving a vehicle as for using a hand-held mobile phone while driving a vehicle. There are many potential distractions while driving and it remains the driver’s responsibility to drive safely at all times.
The police use the existing offence of failing to have proper control, under Section 41D of the Road Traffic Act 1988, to deal with those who are distracted while driving. This attracts similar penalties to those for the specific offence of driving while using a hand-held mobile phone. It is worth noting that introducing a new law to ban smoking in cars only by drivers would not solve the public health problem that prompted my noble friend Lord Ribeiro to introduce his Bill. Other passengers in the car, either in the passenger seat or in the rear of the car, would still be able to smoke, and children and adults would still be exposed to the harms of second-hand smoke.
The Government are not persuaded that legislating for smoke-free cars is the best approach at this time. We believe that some significant issues need to be resolved before such legislation can be contemplated. None the less, I congratulate my noble friend on his efforts.
Civil Aviation Bill
Earl Attlee Excerpts(12 years ago)
Grand CommitteeRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, the Minister’s worst nightmare must have been fulfilled from this opening debate—namely, because the Committee has, quite appropriately, addressed itself to what the amendment says about surface transport, and of course that then gives a wide range of exciting prospects on how we could improve surface transport. I will put my three penn’orth in if I may. Manchester Airport is very eager that the metro should be part of its facilities. It is some distance away at present. The airport is certainly prepared to face a proportion of the costs. We have heard the anxieties and proposals for the necessary improvement to surface transport to our airports expressed in very cogent terms. The danger is that that will open up a very wide-ranging discussion, as we have heard.
The Minister may have the obvious consolation, which the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, and I identified, that most of these issues cannot possibly be covered by an extension to the remit of the CAA. We are largely talking about transport projects of the greatest significance, linking our major centres of population to our airports through improvements, which are certainly necessary to all the London airports. Apart from Birmingham, which already boasts excellent rail communication and has great expectations for HS2, all airports recognise that the ease with which people can arrive at them is absolutely critical to the experience and choice of travelling by air. However, as the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, indicated, I doubt that this substantial range of transport issues is meant to be laid at the door of the CAA. I imagine that the Minister, while commenting constructively, as I hope he will, in response to Members of the Committee on ideas for improving connections, will say that this is not a matter with which we can directly charge the CAA.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, as we have heard today, surface transport access is a very important concern for our major airports—not just regulated ones but non-regulated airports, too. I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Bradshaw for enabling us to debate this topic today.
My noble friend is certainly correct to say that without good transport access, it will not be possible for our airports to maintain their strong position compared to their European counterparts, and that we must ensure that people using our airports have access to a range of options for getting to and from them. That is why the Government have put a heavy emphasis on the importance of high-quality public transport to our airports. It is one of the reasons why Thameslink will deliver considerable improvements to access at Gatwick. It is why HS2 and Crossrail will, in the future, deliver important improvements at Heathrow, and it is why the upgrade of London Underground will further enhance access to Heathrow.
My noble friend Lord Bradshaw touched on the problems of the Gatwick Express. When I visited Gatwick Airport, the management certainly made that point to me very strongly.
Your Lordships will also be aware that the Government are seeking to invest in improving access to non-regulated airports through regional growth funding, including, for example, by upgrading junction 10A of the M1 near Luton and through realigning and tunnelling a section of the A45 to facilitate the extension of Birmingham Airport’s runway. The Government recognise the vital contributions that regional airports make to local economies and that regional connectivity is important, as explained by my noble friend Lord Bradshaw.
The amendments seek to expand the scope of CAA’s primary duty for its airport economic regulation functions to meet this point. Specifically, the primary duty is expanded by putting the provision of surface access links on an equal footing with airport operation services. Given the importance of surface access, I sympathise with the thinking behind this amendment. It is important that regulated airports can invest in surface transport access in so far as their unregulated counterparts would be able to do so.
Lord Jenkin of Roding
I seek an explanation for this point, which my noble friend has also made to me in private. If the department is engaged in a consultation, why on earth should a Minister who is answerable for the department not meet some of the people who would have valuable advice to offer on a proposal, which they wish to put forward? How can it possibly be right for a department to conduct a consultation and shut itself off from outside expert evidence? I do not understand my noble friend’s explanation.
Earl Attlee
My noble friend makes very good points, and they are the ones put to the Permanent Secretary at the department. However, I have to accept the advice that I am given.
Lord Berkeley
How can the department consult with outside bodies if it does not meet any outside bodies?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, Ministers spend all their time consulting with outside bodies. However, at some point they are advised that it is inappropriate to meet them. I have agreed with my noble friend that I will take this up with the Permanent Secretary.
The noble Lord, Lord Davies, mentioned Manchester. The noble Lord will recognise that Manchester is not a regulated airport. If it decided to contribute to a surface access scheme, it could recover the costs from its customers if the market would bear it. However, that is of course a commercial matter for the airport.
Clause 19(6) provides that “a price control condition” may be made,
“by reference to the amount charged for particular goods or services”,
or,
“to the overall amount charged for a range of goods or services”.
Clause 19 does not specify the mechanics of setting the price control and leaves the CAA with flexibility to take whatever approach seems most appropriate within the framework provided by Clauses 1 and 18(1). Specifically, this flexibility, combined with the provision in Clause 21(1)(f) which states that licensed activities may relate,
“to activities carried on outside the airport area”,
will not prohibit the CAA from taking into account costs from outside the airport area, such as from rail links, where appropriate when setting a price control.
However, given the importance of this issue, the Government will reflect on the debate and specifically will consider further whether any extension to the primary duty to make special provision in respect of rail and road links to the airport is necessary or desirable. I hope that I have provided my noble friend with the reassurance he seeks, particularly that the Government will consider the amendment further and if appropriate bring forward an amendment on Report.
Lord Bradshaw
I just add the fact that the airport is often the primary reason why the surface links are needed but many people benefit from them. I am not suggesting that the airport should pay the whole cost but a proportion. If its regulatory asset base is linked to that, the airport needs to make sure that it can collect money from the airlines using the airport. I am most anxious that the cost of the facilities should be a charge on the airlines as well as any another beneficiaries. I am not saying that the airlines should pay the whole but a proportion of the cost of the new facilities. With that, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Jenkin of Roding
I am puzzled by the amendment. It is absolutely at the heart of an economic regulator’s job in the general context of government policy, as it has been under successive Governments, that you can give an organisation, perfectly properly, a duty to promote competition. Indeed, in the past, competition between the various airports has been a major feature of our airport structure. We will come later to the relationship between the CAA, the Competition Commission and the other bodies that are required by statute to promote competition. However, it does not seem in the least inappropriate that the Bill should state at the very beginning that the general duties of the CAA should include one to promote competition.
The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, asked what the meaning of the words “where appropriate” was. I give an example from the debate on the previous group of amendments. Does competition mean competition only between airports or competition between terminals in the same airport? I would have had no difficulty whatever in arguing that it should not conceivably be competition between the terminals of the same airport, which are under the same management and which one would expect to be run in such a way as to provide the best complementary service for the entire airport for the benefit of users and freight operators. Therefore, it would be quite easy to say that of course competition between terminals would not be appropriate, while competition between airports certainly should be. As I say, we will come later to how that might be applied and enforced.
However, subsection (2) as originally drafted is perfectly reasonable. When I read the amendment that noble Lords had tabled to the subsection, it aroused in me the very unworthy thought that perhaps they do not think that competition is good for users. Competition must be absolutely at the heart of the benefit to users, for the purposes of both the quality of service and keeping costs down. That is what it is about. If the noble Lord wishes to press his amendment when we get to Report stage, I have to say that I would be firmly opposed to it.
Earl Attlee
If the amendments sought to include a requirement that the CAA must promote competition only where it is consistent with the interests of passengers and owners of cargo, I would thoroughly agree with their intent. However, the presence of the words “where appropriate” in the primary duty in Clause 1(2) already achieves the intent of the noble Lord, Lord Rosser. Any further changes are therefore unnecessary. The noble Lord asked me for a definition of “where appropriate” but neither the CAA nor the appeal bodies would have any difficulty in working out what it means.
Broadly speaking, the primary duty provides for the CAA to carry out its airport economic regulation functions in a way that will further the interests of passengers and owners of cargo. The primary duty also states that the CAA must do so, where appropriate, by promoting competition in the provision of airport operation services. This means that it will not be appropriate to promote competition if it is not in the interests of passengers and owners of cargo. Clearly, the CAA will have to balance the issues listed in subsection (1)—for instance, cost and quality. There is a balance to be struck and it is the duty of the CAA to strike it on behalf of passengers and owners of cargo. As the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, recognised, these duties would also apply to the Secretary of State. Therefore, the intent of the amendment is already implicit in the primary duty and any further changes would be superfluous. I hope that this provides your Lordships with the reassurance required and that the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, will withdraw his amendment.
Lord Jenkin of Roding
My Lords, I am astonished that there is no regulation of general aviation of the sort that is covered by my noble friend’s amendment. If that is right, I cannot understand why the CAA should not have some general role. Air taxis are presumably within the definition that he encounters. There was a time when I had to fly from my home in Essex to Liverpool several times a month, and much the easiest way was to take an air taxi from Stansted Airport, which we used frequently. On one occasion, the pilot suggested that I take over the controls, which lasted for about 10 seconds because I did not have a clue. I look forward to hearing my noble friend’s response to the amendment.
Turning to the question of the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, I, too, have had one or two very interesting trips in a hot air balloon. As Secretary of State for the Environment, I had to decide on the planning requirements for tethered balloons, which are often used for advertising. I was confronted by two very strong opposing views. Some people said, “These are perfectly horrible and should be strictly controlled”, while others said that it was a harmless form of advertising. I split the difference and said that no planning permission was needed if the balloon would be there for only 14 days or fewer. Everybody seemed satisfied with that and I have never heard any more about it.
Landing in a hot air balloon is very exciting. The important thing is not to get off too quickly or it will disappear up into the air again, which can be very disconcerting. However, it is a splendid sport and I have never forgotten the occasion when I was staying officially at Leeds Castle. Very early one still morning, there was a rally of hot air balloons. I was invited to it by American Express, which had a very large balloon. We took off and had the most marvellous flight. However, before we left, we carefully and quietly climbed up the side of Leeds Castle, where my wife was leaning out of the window in her nightgown. I was able to bid her farewell, almost touching but not quite. We had a very skilful pilot and I hugely admired how he managed the hot air balloon. Again, it seems that the CAA should have some regulatory role in this.
Lord Jenkin of Roding
I am assured that it does, so that is fine. No doubt my noble friend will explain that.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, these amendments propose the inclusion of new secondary duties that take account of the interests of general and business aviation. I accept that the Bill is limited in scope. It seeks primarily to provide for better regulation of our airports and is not designed to be a comprehensive overhaul of our legislation. Having carefully considered these amendments, I cannot accept them, as they are unlikely to yield significant benefits but could unfortunately introduce unnecessary ambiguity into the Bill.
Despite the amendments being carefully drafted, a technical difficulty arises because of the absence of any definition or description of what is meant by “general and business aviation”, so the amendment may introduce undesirable uncertainty. I am sure that all noble Lords in the Committee understand what we mean by it, but not in legislative terms. I will ensure that I am briefed on the EU declaration that my noble friend Lord Rotherwick mentioned.
There are also policy difficulties with the proposed amendment. One policy intention behind the Clause 1 duties is for the CAA to be provided with a set of clear and unambiguous duties, promoting the interests of passengers and owners of cargo in the provision of air operation services. It follows that the number of secondary duties should be as small as is reasonably practicable. The new framework for economic regulation would apply to airports with significant market power—currently, Heathrow, Gatwick and Stansted. General and business aviation interests will be covered when the flight includes passengers. For example, when a corporate flight is carrying business passengers, the primary duty will extend to the passengers as they will comprise users of transport services. It appears that the only cases where the interests of general and business aviation will not be taken into account are when the flight carries neither passengers nor cargo, other than cargo carried by the pilot. A secondary duty to take into account the reasonable interests of general and business aviation is unlikely to make a material difference, having regard to the very small percentage of such flights to regulated airports.
The Bill recognises that conflicts may arise between the interests of different users of air transport services. In such cases, the CAA has very wide discretion to decide whose interests it should further. Against this background, we do not think that it is appropriate to give specific prominence to the interests of general and business aviation or indeed any other specific sector. For all airports, when demand is higher then capacity for finite take-off and landing slots, this is generally reflected in the fees charged. In a competitive market, an airport operator is likely to prefer to receive flights with large numbers of passengers over those with fewer passengers when this enhances its profits. The Bill will not impact the mechanism for setting airport charges at airports not deemed to have substantial market power, which is the vast majority of airports and airfields used by the general aviation community. This is a further policy reason not to pay special regard to general and business aviation.
However, the Government absolutely recognise the valuable contribution of the general and business aviation sector. The CAA’s Strategic Review of General Aviation in 2006 estimated its contribution to the UK economy at £1.4 billion per annum, a little less than the PWC report referred to—probably because different tests were applied—but still a very significant sum none the less. As noble Lords have observed, it delivers important services such as search and rescue, mail delivery, life-saving organ transport, law enforcement, aerial survey and environmental protection flights, as well as underpinning the training of future pilots. It also has growing economic importance for the European manufacturing industry. I would like to take this opportunity to pay tribute to my noble friends Lord Rotherwick, Lord Trefgarne and Lord Goschen, who miss no opportunity to promote the needs of general aviation.
The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, mentioned hot air balloons. I like seeing hot air balloons in the summer in the countryside, but my wife has declined to take a ride in one for the reasons that noble Lords have identified. The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, will know that aviation safety is covered by other legislation but is policed by the CAA as the safety regulator.
The Government are currently developing a long-term strategy for sustainable aviation in the UK. A formal consultation document is due to be published later this summer, when the general aviation community and other aviation stakeholders will be invited to comment. However, I believe that these amendments would create unnecessary ambiguity and ask my noble friend to withdraw or not to move them at the appropriate point.
Amendment 11 seeks to introduce a new clause after Clause 1 that would place a requirement on the CAA to publish a statement of policy setting out how it plans to carry out its functions as set out in Clause 1. I understand that the intention of this amendment may be to be ensure transparency in the CAA’s exercise of its new duties. The Bill as drafted provides a clear primary duty to end-users that the CAA supports. However, there are several reasons why I do not think this amendment will work in practice. First, the amendment as drafted requires the CAA to prepare and publish the statement of its policy with respect to carrying out its functions under Clause 1. However, the CAA has no functions under Clause 1; rather, Clause 1 sets outs the way in which it must carry out its functions under Chapter 1. The amendment as drafted would appear to have no effect. In view of this, I hope the noble Lord will withdraw his amendment.
Lord Rotherwick
I thank all noble Lords who took part in this debate and I thank the Minister for his response, although it was not very helpful and rather disappointing. He was not able to offer me much comfort for my amendments. Bearing in mind what he said about consulting later on promoting and safeguarding airports, it would certainly be helpful to sit down with him and his Bill team to find out whether we could get additional comfort.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I would be delighted to continue to work closely with my noble friend on the issue of general aviation.
Lord Rotherwick
I am very grateful for that because it has taken us a generation to have vehicle for this and we do not want to miss it. Perhaps I could talk to him a bit later. I am interested in our not giving a negative statement to the European business community, saying that the UK is not open for aviation in all its diversity. As saturation takes up the three main airports, and then the next five, there needs to be an aviation infrastructure left for the rest of the aviation community to flow into. I thank the noble Lord for all his help on this and beg leave to withdraw.
Lord Berkeley
My Lords, as my noble friend Lady Worthington said in her opening remarks, it is useful to reflect on some of the industries which are regulated in this respect and to reflect that these industries have, for their own rights and reasons and in order to comply with the regulator’s duty, made big improvements in the areas of emissions, noise, water, energy and construction. The rail industry has been required to reduce its diesel emissions, as has the road sector. I am not sure that it will be quite as easy to persuade some ship owners to change their fuel but the European Commission is intent on doing so. I am sure that it will happen one day and that it will be either voluntary or forced upon them. As my noble friend Lord Clinton-Davis said, the air industry has made significant improvements.
It would be odd if the Bill did not contain a requirement or duty on the CAA to take into account environmental matters. That does not mean that the air industry is particularly bad at doing so but there is evidence from other industries that, because of these regulatory duties, they probably try a little harder and in a way that they would not do otherwise.
I am inclined to support Amendment 69 but it is very important that we include something here so that there is commonality with some of the other regulators’ duties to consider environmental issues, and to encourage airports and the airline industry to go that little bit further.
Many noble Lords will recall the debates when the third runway was last on the agenda about the emissions from Heathrow and whether they were over the limit. Were they caused by emissions from the M4 running past on the north side or from the M25? There were many debates—I do not want to go into who was right and who was wrong—and one solution was to put the M4 in a tunnel. I cannot see the point of that because emissions will still take place in a tunnel and will have to come out somewhere. They might come out further away but, to me, that would be cheating. Again, this concerns the idea of the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, of including surface access, which I am sure will come up again.
However, matters have improved since then in the quality of emissions from the air and road industries. It is essential that something along the lines of the amendments is included in the Bill.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, the issue of aviation and the environment was raised by several noble Lords during Second Reading. I am pleased to return to the matter again and to give further consideration to this important subject. I have not tabled a government amendment because I am reluctant to pre-empt the Committee’s consideration of this topic. However, I hope that when we have finished the Bill the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, will not be disappointed.
The noble Baroness almost fell into the trap of being political. She will know that we take environmental issues very seriously indeed and that that is why the coalition Government will not agree to a third runway at Heathrow. It is clearly for environmental reasons, particularly noise. This was referred to by the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh. Perhaps the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, will state what her party’s policy is with regard to the third runway at Heathrow. Does she or does she not support it? I can assure your Lordships that I have listened to the points raised today and that I shall carefully read Hansard.
The point was raised about the drafting of the amendment. Yes, Amendment 13A was substituted for Amendment 12 on the Marshalled List.
Many noble Lords asked why other economic regulators have an environmental duty but not the CAA. Other economic regulators apply economic regulation across most or all of their respective industries, but the CAA regulates only the three London airports, as observed by my noble friend Lord Cathcart. Why should Manchester not be subject to environmental regulation while Gatwick is? If the CAA had an environmental duty, no noble Lord has explained to me, by way of example, what it would do with it that is not already done by some other means.
My noble friend Lord Jenkin asked about the publication requirements in Clause 84. We are not quite there yet but I will write to my noble friend and, if necessary, he can table an amendment to Clause 84.
Lord Clinton-Davis
The noble Earl has referred to Clause 84, which is highly desirable apart from one feature. It would be helpful to allude to that now. Why does the CAA have to divulge environmental information only if it considers it appropriate?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, it is for the CAA to work out whether it is in the public interest to publish the information.
I recognise the value of noble Lords’ contributions, particularly those of the noble Lords, Lord Clinton-Davis and Lord Soley, and my noble friend Lord Cathcart. They made very important points and some of the technical points made by the noble Lords, Lord Clinton-Davis and Lord Soley, were very interesting. I share the concerns about the environmental impacts of airport operations and wider aviation. The coalition takes the environmental impacts of aviation very seriously, as I have explained.
Each of these amendments seeks to add to the Bill supplementary duties that relate to environmental or planning issues. Amendments 4, 5, 6, 7 and 13A seek to add supplementary duties to the CAA and the Secretary of State’s airport economic regulation functions, whereas Amendment 69 seeks to add an overarching duty for all the CAA’s functions, including airport economic regulation. This would create a tension with the CAA’s primary duty in Clause 1(1).
I turn first to the amendments that would provide the possibility of the CAA having an overarching environmental duty. The idea is not a new one. The previous Government consulted on a general environmental objective for the CAA, along with parallel proposals for a general consumer and safety objective. No clear support for a general environmental objective was evident. This flowed from Sir Joseph Pilling’s review of the CAA. The responses to the consultation were mixed and did not show clear support for a general environmental objective. For example, concern was expressed about ensuring a clear boundary between environmental policy, which was seen as the role of the Government, and the role of an expert aviation regulator, where safety was seen as the priority. After all, the Environment Agency is the body responsible for regulating environmental issues.
Lord Soley
I am looking again at Clause 84. The Minister has indicated that he wants to help the Committee on this issue. When he responds on this at a later stage, will he consider whether Clause 84(2) could apply to all airports? It states:
“The CAA may publish guidelines and advice with a view to reducing, controlling or mitigating adverse environmental effects on civil aviation in the United Kingdom”.
In a way, it refers to the whole of the UK and I am not sure why, with a bit of tweaking, Clause 84 could not cover some of the points that we have made.
Lord Jenkin of Roding
May I follow up the point that the noble Lord, Lord Soley, has just made? My noble friend invited me earlier to table amendments when we get to Clause 84. I do not wish to amend Clause 84, but I need to know the context in which the information requirements and powers that will be given by that clause will operate. If, as has been suggested by other Members of the Committee, there should be a duty on the CAA, perhaps the clause is all right. If we are to reach the next stage of the Bill without having a government amendment on the Marshalled List that says what is happening to the general power, it is quite difficult to know what to do.
My interpretation is that while my noble friend has rehearsed some of the questions and objections, he is not shutting his mind to this. The possibility remains, therefore, that there will be a government amendment before Report, in which case we can look at Clause 84 in the light of that government amendment. However, if there is no such government amendment by that time, it is very difficult to see what else you could do to Clause 84. The point I made is that these things hang together.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I assure the Committee that I have a very well thought-out speech. I believe that the upcoming aviation policy framework, due to be adopted by March 2013, represents a more proportionate and effective way for the Government to address the environmental impacts across the aviation sector as a whole. As I have said, this Government take seriously the environmental impacts of all airports. With regard to the other amendments, several of these have been extensively debated in the other place, and the Government’s position on these remains unchanged.
First, I turn to Amendment 4. As your Lordships will be aware, the previous Government decided to include a similar duty to that contained in Amendment 10. However, in practice the supplementary duty would have no substance, so the Secretary of State decided in July 2010 to omit it. This is because the duty as drafted would appear to require the CAA, in discharging its primary duty, to take account of the licence holder’s obligation to comply with planning obligations. It is not for the CAA, as an economic regulator, to enforce planning law through licence conditions. In so far as a licence condition purported to require the licence holder to breach planning law or otherwise act in breach of planning law, it would appear to be unlawful. Regardless of whether the CAA had this explicit duty or not, the CAA will need to have proper regard to the airport’s obligation to comply with all applicable legal obligations, including planning law.
Amendment 6, in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, covers climate change. While important, this is also unnecessary because other policies seek to achieve it. Separately, the Government have committed to producing a sustainable framework for UK aviation that supports economic growth and addresses aviation’s environmental impacts. In addition, there are other policies, such as the European Union Emissions Trading System, which was mentioned by the noble Baroness when she touched on efficiency issues. Furthermore, this amendment would appear to go beyond airport economic regulation and it is unclear how the CAA would go about fulfilling this duty—a point I made earlier.
However, the Government have some sympathy with the thinking behind the remaining amendments—that is, Amendments 5, 7 and 13A. In particular, this debate allows us to acknowledge the importance of allowing appropriate investment at airports to mitigate their environmental impacts and those of activities associated with them. Without a doubt, this Government support the idea that airport operators—whether or not they are subject to economic regulation—should be able to invest in appropriate environmental measures. This concern was frequently raised in the House of Commons. However, obligations should not be put on some airports but not others depending on their economic regulatory status.
Our position is that a licensed airport operator should not be unable to recover, through the regulatory settlements, costs arising from undertaking environmental investment where an unregulated competitive airport would choose to incur similar costs for similar purposes and be able to recover those costs. After all, the overall aim of economic regulation is often cited as delivering the outcomes that would otherwise occur in a competitive market. Therefore, it is my belief that environmental investment that is in the passengers’ interests in the provision of airport operation services should be included in an airport’s regulatory settlement. This is a point on which more clarity could be provided in the Bill.
However, I am hesitant to accept these amendments today because I believe that it would be desirable to specify some or all of the environmental effects to which the CAA must have regard. Furthermore, we need to ensure that the drafting does not have the capacity to create distorting effects by putting greater obligations on regulated airports relative to non-regulated airports. With the assurance that I will consider these matters in detail ahead of Report, I hope noble Lords will be willing to withdraw Amendment 4, and not press Amendments 6 and 69. However, I am willing to consider Amendments 5, 7 and 13A—
Lord Berkeley
The Minister gave a very interesting speech and I congratulate him. He mentioned some or all environmental issues, but is that not moving into a rather dangerous area of lists and what goes into a list? Are you going to include bats but not tadpoles, or noise and things like that? I hope that he will take into account that it is very dangerous to produce lists of these things because you might leave things out or add things in that you subsequently do not want.
Earl Attlee
The noble Lord makes a very good point, and I am sure that my officials will not let me go too far. However, I am willing to consider Amendments 5, 7 and 13A in greater detail, with a view to returning to the matter on Report. I would find further meetings with noble Lords extremely valuable.
While I appreciate the spirit in which noble Lords have proposed these amendments today, as I have said, there are a few reasons why I am hesitant to accept them now. Interested parties have made it clear that the CAA should not be the environmental regulator. If such duties were to be imposed, I also believe it would be desirable to specify some or all of the environmental effects to which the CAA must have regard. With the assurance that I will consider this matter in detail ahead of Report, I hope that the noble Baroness and other noble Lords will be able to withdraw and not to press their amendments.
Baroness Worthington
I thank the Minister for his comments. I am encouraged that he anticipates that I will not be disappointed and that he will consider further a number of the amendments. I come back to a few of the things that he mentioned. It would seem odd not to introduce such a duty because it would apply to only 55% of the market and not 100%. Clearly, 55% is better than nothing. I know that he will say that it is about competitive distortions, but let us be honest—I think that the noble Earl, Lord Cathcart, made this clear—those three airports have a distinct advantage over the others in terms of scale. They are off the scale in comparison to the other airports. There are many other environmental regulations that have this differentiation between the smaller and larger, dominant operators. There are often lots of de minimis thresholds put into regulations to account for the difference in scale. I really do not see that as a problem, and I urge the Government to go through with the 55% if they are very keen on environmental issues, which they say they are.
I wonder—and this may be something that we can meet about—whether Amendment 69 does not help to address this question by creating a more general duty that would cover all of the CAA’s operations. I can understand the question of how CAA would operationalise it, given that it does not license the other operators, but I am sure that it is not beyond our wit to be able to work through that.
The Minister talked about planning and said that he could not understand what it would be used for. I echo the noble Earl, Lord Cathcart, in saying that we are trying to prevent a legal challenge and to give the CAA cover if it chooses to apply its discretion and include discretionary spending within the regulated asset base. So it would be used as a defensive measure against being forced not to include environmental measures. There are other things that relate specifically to planning. Often planning approvals include Section 106 agreements—additional obligations to which a developer voluntarily agrees. So they might not be caught within a very strict interpretation of the law, because they are very often quite loosely worded. So there are some questions there about planning.
I pay tribute to my noble friends and other noble Lords who have contributed to the debate. It has been a good debate and I am very encouraged. We all recognise, as my noble friends Lord Clinton-Davis, Lord Soley and Lady McIntosh have accepted, that the aviation industry should not be singled out for not embracing the environment. It clearly does move forward on a voluntary basis. That is exactly what we are trying to say here: we want to enable and allow this voluntary move towards a more efficient, cleaner and more environmentally responsible industry. We do not want this Bill to stop that. That is a very important point. We are not saying the sector does not wish to move. I am sure it does, given all the pressures that it is under.
My noble friend Lord Berkeley raised the point, which we have made before, that other sectors are regulated with environmental duties. He specifically mentioned rail as an example. Rail often competes directly with the aviation sector when it comes to short-haul flights and it seems odd that rail should have an environmental duty but aviation not. The noble Lord, Lord Jenkin of Roding, raised some very important points about other elements of the Bill, in particular Clause 84 and how that relates to the duties that we hope will be created. My noble friend Lord Clinton-Davis talked about the fact that the aircraft and aviation industry wish to respond. I hope I have captured most of the contributions and I thank the noble Earl for his encouraging words. I look forward to something being brought forward by the Government and beg leave to withdraw my amendment.
Lord Empey
Does the Minister feel that these two paragraphs could leave the CAA open to judicial review by disgruntled operators? They are adding something unclear with the definition of what is and is not needed. It may be intended to prevent overzealous application of restrictions on operators, but these days, one always has to look at the potential for judicial review, and I suspect that the way this is drafted might leave the CAA open. It might be possible to amend the first paragraph to meet the needs of the Government, but I hope the Minister will address the legal issue.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I must admit that I am puzzled by these amendments. I take it that they are merely probing amendments, but they are certainly not mundane. They seek to weaken the principles that the CAA and the Secretary of State must have regard to when discharging their economic regulation functions. Specifically, they seek to remove the need to have regard to the principle that regulatory activities should be targeted only at cases in which action is needed. To this extent, the amendment may inadvertently facilitate or encourage excessive regulation, and I am sure that the Committee will agree that that is clearly not desirable. I ask noble Lords to oppose these amendments today because they would remove provisions in the Bill that strengthen the adherence of the CAA and the Secretary of State to good economic regulation practice.
This first amendment seeks to delete one of the principles that the CAA must have regard to in performing its duties under subsections (1) and (2) of Clause 1, which sets out the CAA’s general duty. That principle is that,
“regulatory activities should be targeted only at cases in which action is needed”.
The second amendment makes the same provision for the Secretary of State’s duties.
The principles set out in Clause 1(4) and Clause 2(5) are those that the Better Regulation Task Force defined in 1997 as in keeping with good regulation. They were that good regulation should be transparent, accountable, proportionate, consistent, and targeted.
These principles are not in the Bill by accident. They are a well recognised starting point and one looks to encourage those responsible for economic regulation to apply them appropriately. Having provisions in legislation that reflect these principles is sensible and makes clear what is expected of regulators. It is not only desirable but good practice to have these provisions to encourage the CAA to discharge its Clause 1 functions in a manner that discourages unnecessary regulation.
It is known that economic regulation is an imperfect intervention. It should be used only where an unregulated market fails to deliver competitive outcomes. However, used appropriately, it can be an effective tool. The provisions in Clauses 1(4) and 2(5) ensure that this is the case in the Civil Aviation Bill. Furthermore, as an experienced regulator, the CAA is not troubled by having regard to the principles set out in Clause 1(4)(b). Indeed, it considers it sound regulatory practice, as do the Government.
Lord Clinton-Davis
It would be convenient for the Committee if the Minister would say that he will have another look at this particular provision because, notwithstanding what he has said, it is not sensible.
Lord Berkeley
Perhaps I may press the Minister a little more on the text in paragraph (b). On what basis does the CAA or the Secretary of State decide that action is needed? Surely they have to investigate before they can come to a conclusion. It seems a circular process.
Earl Attlee
Yes. However, we are talking about the principle of regulation that you do not do things that are unnecessary: you target your effort at a problem. If there is not a problem, you leave it alone.
The noble Lord, Lord Empey, asked whether the subsections could leave the CAA open to JR. These are secondary, subordinate obligations to which the CAA must have regard. Provided the CAA turns its mind to these matters and considers them, it will, prima facie, have complied with the obligation.
Lord Rosser
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his reply and other noble Lords who have taken part in this brief debate.
The Minister said that he will look at Hansard to see what point I was making. To reiterate, the question I am raising is: what is the necessity for the two paragraphs that my amendment seeks to delete? Paragraph (b) states that,
“regulatory activities should be targeted only at cases in which action is needed”.
That comes after paragraph (a), which states that,
“regulatory activities should be carried out in a way which is transparent, accountable, proportionate and consistent”.
I appreciate that the Minister has said that he will look at the question and respond but, to reiterate the question that I asked, how can something be proportionate if it is a regulatory activity targeted at a case in which action is not needed? Surely, by definition, if regulatory action is not needed and you take regulatory action, that cannot be proportionate.
I am happy to leave it in the context that the Minister will look at the point I have raised and respond to me. I would be grateful for that. I am asking a genuine question. We are all interested in making sure that there is no unnecessary verbiage in legislation, which is the point I am making about the two paragraphs that the amendment proposes should be deleted. However, in the context that the Minister will look at the issue and write to me, I am happy to withdraw the amendment.
Earl Attlee
The noble Lord mentioned slots. These are regulated by the world slot guidelines and, in Europe, by the EU slot regulations. They are implemented by Airport Coordination Limited in the UK. The Government do not and cannot have a role in slot allocation.
Lord Berkeley
If there appears to be a dominant position in slots, does that come under the CAA or the Government? Is there any competition authority, or is it completely outside?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, that is clearly a competition issue. I am not certain about it but I will write to the noble Lord.
Clause 5 defines what comprises a “dominant airport area” and a “dominant airport”. Under subsection (3), “airport area” means an area that consists of or forms part of an airport, including land and buildings. This provision is included to allow for the possibility of there being more than one operator at an individual airport. This could be the case if, for example, an airline acquired or leased a terminal building. As there can be more than one airport area at an airport, it follows that there can be more than one operator of an airport area at an airport.
Subsection (1) states that an airport area is dominant if the CAA has made a determination that the market power test is met in relation to the area and publishes a notice to that effect. Subsection (2) provides that an airport is dominant if all or part of its core area is a dominant area or part of a dominant area. Subsection (4) describes what comprises a core area. Broadly speaking, the core area includes runways and associated facilities, passenger terminals and cargo processing areas. It follows from that that non-core airport areas include car parks with pedestrian access to the terminal building, or the forecourt of a passage in the terminal, including pick-up and drop-off points. Therefore, if the only dominant airport area at airport X comprised the pick-up and drop-off points, airport X would not be a dominant airport because no part of the core area would comprise or be included in a dominant area. We should remember that the core area is the runways, associated facilities, passenger terminals and so on.
In such circumstances, no part of the airport could be subject to regulation. The underlying thinking is to ensure that no part of an airport should be subject to regulation unless some part of the core area is dominant. This construction is required to prevent unnecessary regulation where there is a problem only with peripheral areas. This distinction between core and non-core airport areas is necessary to ensure that the CAA regulates ancillary airport operation services only where some or all of the core area of the airport is dominant; it is unable to exercise regulatory control over core areas where only non-core areas are dominant.
Allowing for more than one operator at an airport differs from the approach used in the Airports Act 1986, which refers to an airport operator as,
“the person for the time being having the management of an airport, or, in relation to a particular airport, the management of that airport”.
That Act does not include provision about cases in which there is more than one operator of an airport. I make clear to the Committee that there are no powers in this clause to introduce intra-airport competition. Rather, the clause allows for the possibility that competition may be introduced within our airports—for example, inter-terminal competition. These provisions are included to keep open the option of competition within airports in future.
The Competition Commission has previously expressed interest in this concept and suggested that the,
“legislation … should allow for terminals to be developed or redeveloped and to be operated separately from runway facilities, where appropriate”.
While the Competition Commission has no present intention to impose such intra-airport competition, it is supportive of keeping the option open for the future. We therefore need to ensure that the regulatory framework is capable of operating in the event that inter-terminal competition becomes a feature of the UK airport sector. By including it in the Bill, we avoid the need for a future Government to have to return to Parliament for fresh primary legislation.
Lord Berkeley
I am grateful to the Minister for that very clear, if somewhat complex, explanation. If I have it right, a core area has to include the landing and take-off runways. I cannot see how more than one landing and take-off runway can be owned in one airport. If Heathrow separated the ownership of the north and south runways, then you would have some competition. However, if the core area has to include the landing and take-off, surely it would be impossible to have competition within any of the airports in the south-east. Have I misunderstood this? I would be grateful if the Minister could explain further.
Earl Attlee
I do not know whether or not the noble Lord has misunderstood. I suspect that he will have to read what I have said very carefully in order to understand it.
Earl Attlee
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I shall speak also to Amendments 16 and 23. These three amendments are being taken together. Collectively, they will ensure that the CAA must have regard to the extensive guidance and advice published by the EU and UK competition authorities, for example the Office of Fair Trading.
We have been reflecting on comments made in the other place regarding the definition of “substantial market power” in the Bill. In particular, during debates in Committee in the other place, points were made that there could be some uncertainty regarding how the CAA might assess “substantial market power”. Although we believe that the definitions and specific meanings of the terms relating to market power that are used in the Bill are clear, we see merit in providing more clarity that the CAA must have regard to relevant competition guidance when carrying out the market power test.
Clause 6(1) states that market power test is met in relation to the airport area only if the CAA is satisfied that tests A, B and C are all met by the operator of that airport area. These tests are designed to ensure that operators of airport areas are subject to economic regulation only if under test A,
“the … operator has, or is likely to acquire, substantial market power in a market, either alone or taken with … other persons”,
under test B, general,
“competition law does not provide sufficient protection against the risk that the … operator may engage in conduct that amounts to an abuse of substantial market power”,
and under test C,
“the benefits of regulating the … operator … are likely to outweigh”
the costs.
On a previous amendment, I was asked what the market is. A market for airport operation services could be as narrow as the baggage handling services at Heathrow Terminal 5, or as wide as airport operation services at airports in London and the south-east. Other examples of airport operation services include the provision of airport facilities for car parking, facilities for shops and ground handling services.
The term “substantial market power” in test A is the term used in the current criteria that the Secretary of State applies when making designation decisions on whether an airport should be subject to price control. It is well understood and accepted in this context. The previous Government consulted on the wording of this limb and the other limbs of the test for whether an airport should be subject to economic regulation. In light of that consultation, we see no reason to change the wording. In carrying out test A, the CAA expects to follow the guidelines published by UK competition authorities—for example the Office of Fair Trading and the European Commission—for the assessment of market power. This amendment will put that beyond doubt. These are generic guidelines for use in any industry and provide a useful starting point for assessing the degree of competition faced by an airport. I beg to move.
Lord Berkeley
I am grateful to the noble Earl for that explanation. I have a couple of very simple and quick questions. I assume that when he says there is an issue about being subject to price control, he is talking about baggage handling, car parking and things like that rather than the price of slots, which I think he said is outside everything. I would be grateful for his confirmation of that.
Lord Davies of Oldham
The Minister will, no doubt, give an answer to that in just a moment. I am grateful to him for these amendments. As he said, there was considerable anxiety in the other place when discussing the concept of the dominant market. I am still trying to get my head round the position in respect of baggage at Heathrow being a dominant market, but will take the Minister’s word for that. I certainly accept the other extreme he put forward: all the airports in the south-east. We appreciate that, with these amendments, the Minister has helped to reassure us over the anxieties that were expressed in the other place. We all appreciate that it is not easy to get to this definition and that considerable efforts have been made. At first, I thought the cross-reference to the European Commission looked a bit like overkill, but the Minister is making sure he has belt and braces with regard to this, in response to the challenges that were made in the other place. I am quite sure my colleagues there will join me in thanking him for these amendments and accepting that they go a considerable way to allaying past anxieties and help the Bill.
Earl Attlee
The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, is right that it is not the price of slots. The price of slots has an economic value, but it is not regulated.
Groceries Code Adjudicator Bill [HL]
Earl Attlee Excerpts(12 years ago)
Grand CommitteeRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I think this may be a convenient moment to adjourn the Committee until Thursday at 2pm.