Civil Aviation Bill

Countess of Mar Excerpts

Monday 9th July 2012 Grand Committee

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, for introducing this interesting, probing amendment, because it gives me the opportunity to say something about how innovative the aviation sector in this country already is and the CAA’s role as the regulator. My noble friend Lord Rotherwick spoke about innovation in navigational aids. I look forward to debating his Amendment 73, which will deal with these issues, but his comments were valuable nevertheless. He indirectly illustrated why the CAA should concentrate on regulation.

My view is that market forces should be allowed to drive innovation in industry and the regulator should be responsive to it. This is how things have worked so far between the aviation sector and the CAA. Indeed, just how innovative our aviation sector is is a measure of how well this arrangement has worked.

Let us consider one aspect of the aviation sector, the aerospace industry. Our aerospace industry is the world’s largest outside the USA, with a 17% share of the global market. Its annual turnover is more than £20 billion, and it directly employs more than 100,000 people, supporting a total of 230,000 jobs across the UK economy. Its workforce is highly skilled: 36% of its employees have university degrees or equivalent.

The aviation travel industry is equally innovative. In my opening speech at Second Reading, I paid tribute to this fact, saying:

“In 2010 … UK airports served nearly 400 international destinations. That level of activity is possible because over the past 30 years the aviation industry has changed to meet the needs of the customer. The emergence of low-cost carriers is one example of how the industry has innovated and diversified. There has also been an increase in the number of people travelling by air in this country, from 59 million passengers in 1982 to 211 million in 2010”.—[Official Report, 13/6/12; col. 1364.]

The CAA has its own international consultancy, Civil Aviation Authority International, or CAAi, which is a wholly owned subsidiary of the CAA. It is a leading, globally recognised aviation consultancy company that delivers and promotes best practice in aviation governance and education. CAAi provides technical advisory services across a range of aviation-related activities, environmental consulting, professional training, aviation examination services and certification against internationally recognised quality management standards. CAAi’s work contributes to enhancing safety standards worldwide.

The CAA is also quick to respond to innovation in the aviation industry. I have come across two examples in the past few days. The noble Lord, Lord Sugar, has raised with me the issue of PDAs in the cockpit. The CAA is assisting many UK commercial air transport operators to gain approval for the use of electronic flight bags. An electronic flight bag approval will allow an operator to replace many of its cockpit paper-based processes with an electronic solution such as a laptop or tablet device or with an aircraft manufacturer’s own certificated system. The CAA is working with EASA and ICAO to standardise and simplify the requirements for operational approval of electronic flight bags.

The second example is the CAA’s work on its future airspace strategy, alluded to by the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham. As the noble Lord reminded the Committee, I offered some aviation briefing sessions to Peers shortly before Second Reading. As part of those, the CAA’s Director of Airspace Policy, Mark Swan, gave a presentation on its future airspace strategy. Through the strategy the CAA is modernising how we use our airspace in this country with the aim of achieving a,

“safe, efficient airspace, that has the capacity to meet reasonable demand, balances the needs of all users and mitigates the impact of aviation on the environment”.

Mark Swan explained that this aim depends on the ability to take advantage of technological developments. For example, new communications, navigation and surveillance improve situational awareness of users and controllers; increased navigational accuracy enables closer-spaced routes; and the amount of noise experienced by communities will be reduced as aircraft fly their routes more accurately and consistently. Operators will be able to free route in the upper airspace along the most fuel-efficient track. This is important. The noble Lord, Lord Davies, touched on emissions and the need to tackle them with technology and innovation. The future airspace strategy is an example of how the CAA can facilitate innovation in the civil aviation industry without the need for a new duty.

The noble Lord, Lord Soley, spoke previously about using advanced biofuels in the aviation sector, as did the noble Lord, Lord Davies, today. Today the noble Lord, Lord Soley, talked about quieter aircraft. He will recall that the quota system of regulating noise at Heathrow airport strongly encourages quieter aircraft. Indeed, under the quota system some aircraft cannot fly at all at night. While there are some obvious barriers, the Government believe that sustainable biofuels have a role to play in reducing carbon emissions from transport, particularly in sectors where there are limited alternatives to fossil fuels, such as aviation. The Committee on Climate Change has carried out studies on the potential for biofuels to reduce emissions from UK aviation in the long term. Its latest estimate is that biofuels could supply 10% of jet fuel demand by 2050, suggesting the impact that future innovation might have.

I said that it is my view that market forces, rather than regulators, drive innovation. I believe that the examples I have provided together show that the industry and the CAA have got the balance right.

[The Countess of Mar]

Does the noble Earl agree that in some cases market forces can have a derogatory effect on the industry? For example, it can lead to cutting corners. I think particularly of my own interest, the cutting of corners in reporting incidents on aeroplanes. Because an aeroplane has to be grounded, it means time out of action and competition within the airline industry is so great that it leads to reluctance on the part of employees to report incidents when they should. This leads to a backwards step as far as innovation is concerned, because, if they did report these things, maybe innovation would lead to improvements in facilities. I hope that the noble Earl sees what I mean.

[Earl Attlee]

I entirely agree with the noble Countess that market forces can have an undesirable effect. That is why we need a highly skilled and competent regulator, such as the CAA, to ensure that those undesirable effects of market forces are eliminated as far as possible.

I would like to quote from the Government publication Principles For Economic Regulation:

“The Government will not seek to add objectives, responsibilities or duties to regulators’ remits without detailed consideration of the impact of the addition on the overall framework, and consideration of cross-sector impacts and even then only when it is clear that the addition is the optimal way to achieve the outcome sought”.

I am not convinced that the addition of an innovation duty is,

“the optimal way to achieve the outcome sought”.

For the reasons I have identified, I believe that we are already in a good place with regard to innovation in the aviation industry. There is a risk that giving the CAA an innovation duty would oblige the CAA to meddle in the market and may even restrict the way in which the aviation industry would be able to innovate. This has been an interesting short debate. I can well understand why the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, has tabled his amendment, but I hope that he will withdraw it at the appropriate point.

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[Lord Trefgarne]

My Lords, I must confess that when I read this provision originally it seemed to be a rather extraordinary provision to be included in the Bill. I therefore took the occasion to make some inquiries. First, I declare an interest. For a number of years, I held an aviation medical certificate, which has now lapsed owing to my great age. Throughout the 40-odd years that I held a civil aviation licence, I was dealt with with the utmost consideration and skill by the CAA, and previously by the Ministry of Aviation’s medical authorities, including on two occasions having my licence suspended for medical reasons, entirely correctly and properly, by the then authorities.

My concern is confidentiality. I am and always have been very anxious that medical information held by public authorities, whether it is the CAA or anyone else, should remain properly confidential. I accept that there are provisions in these arrangements to keep confidential the information that is to be released to others, but the civil aviation community, the number of those who hold civil licences and air traffic control licences, is comparatively small. There is a risk that, if the information for some unusual medical conditions is published, it will be possible to identify the persons concerned. If the information on, say, half a dozen or so cases of a particularly obscure medical condition is made available to research agencies, it will be obvious who is the holder of that medical information.

I hope that my noble friend can explain in a little more detail than appears in the Explanatory Memorandum why it is necessary to have this new power. Can he give me the necessary assurances with regard to the absolute confidentiality of the information to be provided?

[The Countess of Mar]

My Lords, I am pleased to see this clause in the Bill. Some years ago, research was conducted on airline pilots who had been exposed to organophosphates. I am sorry but I have a problem with my voice. It was impossible for the CAA to give any details whatever to the researchers and it caused huge difficulties. This will relieve that difficulty, so I am very pleased to see it.

[Lord Rotherwick]

My Lords, I have great sympathy with my noble friend Lord Trefgarne’s opposition to the clause. I would be very interested to hear what the Minister has to say because I think that my noble friend’s concerns are those of many similar pilots.

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Moved by

[The Countess of Mar]

71: After Clause 105, insert the following new Clause—
“Public interest disclosure
(1) The Civil Aviation Act 1982 is amended as follows.
(2) After paragraph (ha) of section 60(3) (functions with respect to health) insert—
“( ) for ensuring that all airline pilots and crew are aware of and are protected by the terms of the Public Interest Disclosure Act 1998.””

[The Countess of Mar]

My Lords first, I apologise if my voice runs out; I have a problem in that direction. In moving Amendment 71, I shall speak to Amendment 72. I suspect that most noble Lords will be aware of my long-held interest in organophosphates—OPs—and, more particularly, those whose health has been damaged by exposure to OPs. This interest stems from my personal experience.

At Second Reading I spoke of the method by which the air that pilots, airline crew and passengers breathe is drawn in over the very hot engines of an aeroplane on to which oil may have leaked. This oil, manufactured by one company, ExxonMobil, contains an OP—tricresylphosphate, or TCP. This becomes aerosolised when heated to high temperatures, such as when it drips on to a hot engine. I detailed the chemical stages during Committee on the CAA Act 2006, as I am sure the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, will remember, so I will not do it again.

I know that the Minister will rely on the much criticised Cranfield study which looked at a sample of just 100 flights and found no so-called fume events. What it did find was the presence of TCP in 23% of flights and there were 38 reports of fumes of which the majority were described as “oil” or “oily type” smells. A mandatory occurrence report or defect report was not triggered for a single flight, despite this being a requirement of Commission Regulation (EC) No. 859/2008, which amended No. 3922/91. An “occurrence” is defined in directive 2003/42/EC as,

“an operational interruption, defect, fault or other irregular circumstance that has or may have influenced flight safety and that has not resulted in an accident or serious incident”.

The directive is worth reading because it details occurrences such as fume events. I wonder why these occurrences were so studiously ignored by the Cranfield researchers.

Toyber’s dictum states:

“Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence”.

There are two problems with occurrence reporting. The first is that pilots and crew know that if they report a fume event, their aircraft will have to be grounded at considerable cost to their employer and that, to put it mildly, is likely to be frowned upon. The second problem is that of credibility. Fume events are, by their nature, transient. They can be minor or major, and I know that the Minister has seen film of a major event when you could hardly see down the cabin because of the smoke. There is no standard equipment on board an aircraft to collect or measure toxic fumes, and the human nose is the only available detection system. Engineering tests, unless they very precisely replicate the conditions under which a reported event took place, are very unlikely to produce a fume event. In either case, the reporting officer will be afraid at least to be made to look a fool or at worst to be sacked.

The CAA Act 2006 placed on the Secretary of State and the CAA duties in connection with,

“the health of persons on board aircraft”.

The EU legislation listed in my Amendment 72 also places duties on the competent authority in relation to the health and safety of pilots, crew and passengers on board aircraft. Other EU and international legislation defines the safety of the aircraft, its engines, other mechanical equipment and even the quality of the engine oil to be used. Much of the health and safety legislation that applies to everyone in the UK workplace is defined in health and safety Acts and regulations. The Minister, in a letter to me dated 18 June this year, stated that:

“The operation of aircraft in and over Great Britain is subject to the Health and Safety at Work Act 1974. Consequently, the Control of Substances Hazardous to Health Regulations (COSHH) 2002 (as amended) do apply to aircraft in flight in airspace above Great Britain. However, the Civil Aviation Authority (Working Time) Regulations 2004 (as amended), also impose a duty on employers to ensure adequate health and safety protection of aircraft crew on British-registered aircraft at all times. These regulations cover aircraft in flight and are enforced by the CAA”.

The memorandum of understanding between the CAA and the Health and Safety Executive, which the Minister mentions in his letter, states at paragraph 1.5.3:

“The CAA is responsible for regulating the occupational health and safety of crew members whilst they are on board an aircraft from the time when they board the aircraft, preparatory to flight, to the time they leave the aircraft on completion of the flight. For the purposes of the occupational health and safety reporting and regulatory consideration, the CAA will monitor events occurring in aircraft whilst in operation outside the UK”.

That all sounds very good. However, when the CAA was challenged for failing to enforce the COSHH regulations, Mr Tim Williams, then the CAA health, safety and environmental adviser, wrote on 13 April 2007:

“The CAA’s health and safety enforcement powers are derived from the Civil Aviation (Working Time) Regulations 2004”—

which the Minister has told me—

“in particular Regulation 6 that requires adequate health and safety protection to be provided to crew members. These Regulations neither replicate nor replace those made under the Health and Safety at Work etc Act 1974, which are enforced by the Health and Safety Executive. The Control of Substances Hazardous to Health Regulations 2002 … are derived from the Health and Safety at Work etc Act 1974 and”—

I hope that the Minister will listen to this—

“the CAA has no authority to enforce these Regulations, with enforcement duties falling to the HSE. It is therefore inappropriate for the CAA to investigate any alleged breaches of the COSHH Regulations. The Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) between the HSE and the CAA, and in particular Annex 8, provides further details on the divisions of health and safety responsibilities in aviation. The MOU also sets out how the CAA and HSE will interact to avoid duplication of regulatory effect”.

They might also interact to avoid any regulation in this case.

Mr Williams goes on to say that the CAA is always prepared to investigate where the health and safety of crew members may have been compromised, but states that there is a lack of evidence. Of course, if you do not look, you will not find. There is plenty of evidence going back to the 1950s. If the Minister looks at the PhD thesis of Susan Michaelis, called Health and Flight Safety from Exposure to Contaminated Air in Aircraft, which I gave him last year, he will see in the annexe page upon page of contaminated air reports from May 1985 to August 2006. He will see pages of data which confirm cabin air quality problems in BAe 146s, just one of the aircraft types known to have this problem, and yet no one in government or the CAA seems to have shown any interest in what effect these events have on pilots, aircrew and passengers. I wonder, and am frequently asked, why, after a reported incident, medicals, including blood tests, are not conducted immediately on those likely to have been affected. This would at least establish whether there has been exposure to TCP.

As I said at Second Reading, a small study in Nebraska showed that 50% of passengers on one flight tested positive to TOCP, and a recent survey found that 32% of UK pilots experienced medium to long-term ill health. Forty-four per cent reported short-term effects and 13% were grounded because of fume events.

Researchers at Cranfield and the Institute of Occupational Medicine in Edinburgh express an opinion that the levels of TCP found in aircraft are acceptable, but I do not think that it needs much imagination to realise that levels of absorption and inhalation of toxic chemicals in a normal working environment such as a factory are very different from those in the enclosed, pressurised atmosphere of an aeroplane cabin or cockpit. No safe levels have been established in this case. In any event, there are no acceptable daily exposure levels laid down for the more toxic breakdown products of TCP or for the chemical cocktails produced by heated oil. Incredibly, a CAA investigation into cabin air quality suggested that the average man can safely,

“ingest 7 metric tonnes of pyrolised oil per day for 74 days without effect”.

I wonder on what sound scientific evidence that statement was based.

A long-standing former British Airways cabin crew member, concerned about the health effects that she was seeing among her colleagues, surveyed more than 1,000 crew. Among other things, she identified cancer occurring at 10 times the UK national average. She advised BA management and medical personnel of her findings. Instead of thanking her for her efforts and agreeing to take matters further, they sacked her. Although my Amendment 71 may not be perfectly worded, I hope that the Minister will accept its spirit and either assure me that airline pilots and crew will be supported and encouraged to report events that may have adverse health effects or assist me with wording an acceptable amendment to this effect.

The Minister and the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, may recall my efforts during the passage of the Civil Aviation Act 2006 to provide a truly independent health and safety and medical facility for pilots and crew. I was concerned that because the CAA was dependent on the aviation industry to fund this provision, there might be some reluctance to put pressure on the airlines to improve working conditions and health and safety grounds.

The ability to enforce COSHH regulations is fundamental to ensuring that cabin air is not contaminated, but on its own admission the CAA has no enforcement powers. This is totally unacceptable. The cockpits and cabins of airplanes are workplaces for pilots and crew. I can think of no other workplace in the UK where employees are so unprotected. I understand that an Air Navigation Order would be necessary to give the CAA this power. I hope that the Minister will agree to Amendment 72 when I move it. In the mean time, I beg to move Amendment 71.

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[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, I shall contribute briefly because I cannot do justice to this issue. However, I hope that the Minister will do so. I pay tribute to the enormous work of the noble Countess, Lady Mar, in this area. I had the privilege of knowing Nancy Tait who happened to be a constituent when I represented Enfield and first came into the House. For a number of years her concerns about asbestosis were brushed aside on the grounds that the evidence did not match the allegations being made and anxieties being expressed. Everyone else knew that huge potential costs were involved if asbestos had to be stripped out of buildings that were already constructed, to say nothing about not being used again for building. She was right and the doubts of the authorities were eventually overcome. The evidence was produced and we are all healthier because of that, not least our schoolchildren because one of the great uses of asbestos was in schools.

I do not know whether this issue is as significant as that but when the noble Countess, Lady Mar, came to see me when I had responsibility for the department in this House a few years ago, I asked for all the investigations and evidence that the department could make on these issues. I know that a significant amount of work was done. The one thing that I was not prepared to do was to stand before the House on behalf of the Government and reject the noble Countess’s amendments without an assurance that we had explored every dimension.

There was an element in that about which I have not heard any more. I wonder whether the noble Countess can enlighten the Committee. One of the issues was that the airline pilots, through BALPA, did not regard themselves as being excessively threatened by this problem. We all know that they have to protect their livelihoods and they have a vested interest, but equally no one goes to work thinking that they may be engaging in something that will seriously affect their health in the future or even make them dangerous if they fall ill while they are working. That was an important dimension. I do not know whether BALPA’s attitude has changed. There has been no reference to it but it would be germane to the debate.

[The Countess of Mar]

I think that the noble Lord might agree that being an airline pilot is quite a macho job and you do not admit that you are feeling ill until you have to. We have two pilots here. Some of the people with whom I have contact are ex-BALPA pilots and are now seriously ill—some very seriously ill. While they were members of BALPA and working they did not complain. I mentioned at Second Reading the fear that they have of reporting because of losing their jobs.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

We all understand that point. The noble Countess referred to macho jobs. There are lots of tasks that are extremely dangerous and people are prepared to take them on, but a risk to their health of what is involved is a long-running dimension that this manifestation represents.

My point is obvious enough: I was assured several years ago that there was not sufficient substance in the position as established at that stage for action to be taken. The action, of course, will be dramatic. Reference has been made to the fact that the Dreamliner does not use this air system. The Dreamliner is rather an expensive aircraft to produce, as we all know, and it is in open competition with the A380, which uses the old system. We are talking about massive resources being involved. There is no easy switch. If anyone had thought at any stage that everyone’s health could have been safeguarded just with an easy technological change, that would have been done, but we are talking about something so much bigger.

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[Lord Davies of Oldham]

Of course. That is a major exercise and a costly one, and would have to be done with the greatest thoroughness. The department and indeed the Government would have to be convinced that the anxieties were such that they could be allayed only by that approach. It is for the Minister to indicate to us whether he thinks that we are at that stage now; we certainly were not a few years ago.

[The Countess of Mar]

I have no intention of expecting the airline industry to scrap all its planes immediately and replace them with the Dreamliner. I recognise that that would be hugely expensive. It is just the same story as with asbestos and, in a more minor way, with sheep dip, although the latter problem has been resolved. I am concerned that people are not reporting ill health because they are frightened—frightened of losing their jobs, in one case, or of retribution. If the CAA had the power to enforce COSHH, doing so would make the airline owners maintain their aeroplanes properly— I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Empey, for his intervention there—and take notice when there was a complaint. Until we know how many complaints there are, we are not going to be able to solve the problem.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

I hear what the noble Countess says, and I heard that case deployed at the time when we met previously on this issue. Overall, though, my experience is that, whatever risks to livelihood, people have the greatest concern about threats to their long-term health and it is therefore not the case that they conceal these issues. The issue with the asbestos problem was not that people were concealing the impact; what was not being substantiated sufficiently was cause and effect, which is exactly the issue here.

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The noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, mentioned BALPA. It is interesting to note that when I had a meeting with BALPA recently concerning the Bill, at no time did it mention cabin air quality. In addition, BALPA supported the Cranfield research and issued a supportive press notice when it was published last year. The noble Countess suggests that pilots are reluctant to raise the issue because of job insecurity. Why, when they retire, do they not suddenly start blowing the whistle loud and clear? They do not.

[The Countess of Mar]

My Lords, that is precisely what they are doing. The people I have contact with are ex-BALPA pilots and they are now complaining. If the Minister was to go to a meeting of the GCAQE, he would see a lot of ex-BALPA pilots.

[Earl Attlee]

What I find odd is that the noble Countess has been raising the issue for some time, but no pilot or any member of cabin crew apart from a very few who are in contact with her has ever approached me on the issue. I have received nothing about it.

The noble Countess also asked me about medical data. The swab test research undertaken by the Institute of Occupational Medicine in Edinburgh found concentrations of organophosphate compounds consistent with previous measurements. I remind the Committee that the main research study published by Cranfield University in May last year found no evidence of pollutants occurring in cabin air at levels exceeding available health and safety standards and guidelines. Levels observed in flights that formed part of the study were comparable to those.

[The Countess of Mar]

I remind the noble Earl that in none of those aircraft was there a fume event, but they still found TCP in the aircraft.

[Earl Attlee]

The noble Countess has made that point before. As a mere parliamentarian, I have to rely on the academic research being conducted in an appropriate manner and subject to peer review. All the published research studies have now been formally referred to the Committee on Toxicity which is, as I said, the independent adviser to the Government. When I first came into the House in 1992, I was rapidly aware of the noble Countess’s work regarding organophosphates and sheep dips.

In answer to a point made by the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, I am sure that the law is being properly applied. The noble Lord asked: how frequent are fume events? Incidence of fume events is extremely low. The most recent figures show that in 2010, there were 207 contaminated air events reported to the CAA mandatory reporting scheme out of 1.12 million passenger and cargo flights by UK carriers. That is 0.018% or less than 1 in 5,000.

[The Countess of Mar]

Does the noble Earl agree that the Science and Technology Committee found severe underreporting of fume events?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I am not sure what would drive underreporting of fume events.

The noble Lord, Lord Davies, talked about his role in this matter and his discussions with the noble Countess some time ago. As I said, the UK has undertaken research where no other country has done so.

[The Countess of Mar]

I am sorry to interrupt the noble Earl, but Australia and the United States have done so.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I am afraid we will have to have a difference of opinion on that matter. In view of what I have said, I hope that the noble Countess will feel able to withdraw her amendment.

[The Countess of Mar]

Will the Minister kindly address my question about the ability of the CAA to regulate through COSHH? I repeat: the CAA has no authority to enforce the COSHH regulations—this is from the CAA—and it is therefore inappropriate for the CAA to investigate any breaches of the COSHH regulations.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, in my answer I explained to the Committee that I am certain there is no gap in responsibilities between the HSE and the CAA.

[The Countess of Mar]

But the HSE has the ability to enforce COSHH regulations. The CAA has no ability to enforce COSHH regulations, on its own admission, and it is important that it should be able to.

[Earl Attlee]

Yes, my Lords, but as I explained to the Committee there is a memorandum of understanding, which the noble Countess referred to, to ensure that there is no gap between enforcement by the CAA and the HSE.

[The Countess of Mar]

I thank the Minister for his response but I find that really inadequate. The facts are there: the Health and Safety Executive has the ability to apply COSHH but the CAA, on its own admission, has not that ability. It is important because engine oils and their effects would come under COSHH. I thank the Minister for addressing my other points and I am also very grateful to the noble Lords, Lord Wigley, Lord Rotherwick, Lord Empey and Lord Davies of Oldham, for their contributions and kind comments, which I found quite embarrassing.

This is an important subject. I highlighted problems with sheep dip and I was told at first that it was perfectly safe. I was proved right on that occasion and I hope that noble Lords will listen to me because there are serious effects. What concerns me perhaps as much as anything is that passengers are never told when there has been a fume event. You might get a lady who is newly pregnant—perhaps she does not know that she is— and whose baby, when it arrives, has either a cognitive problem or a deformity. We know that foetal exposure to tiny amounts of organophosphates can be quite serious.

We really need to be looking at this more thoroughly. I know that when the Cranfield work was done, it was agreed that pilots would not be looked at until it could be established whether these toxic chemicals were in fact arising in airplanes. That work has been done and there has been a lot of criticism of it. I am not too happy about it, personally, because I have seen how such research can be twisted in order to provide the answer required and I mentioned intellectual corruption at Second Reading. I am not going to let go of this. I shall pursue it even beyond this Bill. I realise that it is difficult but the noble Earl will hear more of it. In the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment 71 withdrawn.